My mom wanted me to be a youth pastor, and when I became a comedian, she said it was close enough. Pete Holmes
I have been following a fascinating post at SBC Voices. What Do Only Pastors Do? (Stephanie Jones.) I have long wrestled with whether or not women could or should be pastors. Stephanie looked at the answer to this question within the confines of complementarianism. Since TWW’s reading population is broadly based, I would love to hear what you, the reader, think about the answer to this question.
Recently, I was sent a list of every woman who calls herself a pastor in the SBC. I’ve written about it. Can the SBC Ban Churches With a Woman in any Position With the Title ‘Pastor,’ Churches Credibly Accused of Sex Abuse and Racism? Do They Have the Bandwidth?
Much to my shock, the SBC made the first step to a constitutional amendment to ban women who are called pastors for any reason. For example, how many women in the SBC are pastors of infants and children? If the amendment passes again next year (and right now, it might), how many churches will leave the SBC? I predict that many black churches will lead the way. Here is an article by The New Yorker that mentions McKissic: The Fight for the Heart of the Southern Baptist Convention. How the Convention’s battle over race reveals an emerging evangelical schism. Dwight McKissic has long been an advocate on the sex abuse front, and I have had the pleasure of meeting him. To imagine him gone from the SBC makes me sad. He truly loved that denomination.
Stephanie says those who simply change the name of the position from pastor to minister are committing fraud.
I suspect the churches who leave will be the churches which believe strongly in a difference between the responsibilities of pastors and elders, that the two positions can overlap but don’t necessarily, that only the senior pastor holds the office of pastor referred to in the BF&M 2000, and that it is the responsibilities the Bible reserves for elders that need be carried out by men only. These will be churches which just as strongly feel the title of pastor belongs equally to male and female ministers.
The churches who respond by dismissing the female staff from their positions will be churches who’ve labored over the question of what pastors alone do and determined that indeed they’ve been asking women to take on these responsibilities. But no longer. Their consciences will have been pricked by the action of the convention.
The churches who respond by simply changing the title of the women who are serving them will be the churches who don’t care to give any thought to this question at all. “We’ve got a lady doing this job. She can’t be called pastor any more. We’ll call her ‘minister’ or ‘director.’ She’s humble and not in it for the recognition. Problem solved!”
This is fraud.
Is it fraud or simply a ploy to “go along to get along?” Stephanie is a realist. She believes that unless the SBC moves quickly to resolve the confusion, the SBC will lose many churches, which will mean a loss of dollars. I have talked with many others who have told me privately that they believe the SBC is heading for a fracture. I have long wondered that myself.
So, back to the question at hand. What can only a pastor do? I think this question might be more difficult for those involved in nondenominational churches and SBC churches as opposed to those of us who are involved in liturgical churches. I would love to argue this point as a former nondenominational/SBC member, but I will bite my tongue.
The following is my answer as a Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod member. Only pastors may baptize, bless the communion, and preach from the pulpit. The two pastors are the only elders in the church. The church functions well with a Leadership Team of men and women involved in the various ministries and frequently meets with the pastor.
My husband and I discovered this church and have accepted that the LCMS does not have women pastors. The reasons for that are not the subject of this post; I’ve written about it elsewhere.
Therefore, only men who attend Lutheran seminary can be ordained as a pastor in the LCMS.
So, the question now goes to you. What can only pastors do in your church? I look forward to the differences in the practices of the faith.
A pastor/minister can hatch, match and dispatch legally in Canada if they are registered with their province/territory to do so.
Pastors/ministers preach, teach, administer, counsel.
The level of education required is a denominational issue.
Who can be a pastor/minister is a denominational issue.
I was a member of the Christian and Missionary Alliance briefly when I was younger, but left because women had no agency to serve and I wasn’t raised to think that way.
I am comfortable in a Catholic service, Anglican, Presbyterian, Lutheran, United, Methodist, Lutheran, Baptist service etc., but I wouldn’t join a church which didn’t recognize equality in spiritual gifts – that to me seems to be an ingrained cultural belief more than a biblical one.
Bene D,
Did you see the C&MA just said they would permit women to be pastors?
I believe that the words for elder (presbuteros), overseer (episkopos), and shepherd (poimen – Latin = pastor) are all used interchangeably for the same leadership position in the NT. Therefore, if you believe that women cannot serve in one of them, to be consistent, you would have to also not allow them to serve in the others.
That being said, I believe (as a former PCA ordained teaching elder) the case against ordaining women as elders, etc. is not nearly as cut and dried as it is usually presented. After years of study, I now lean more towards the Bible supporting women serving in these roles. In fact, the NT presents women as already serving in these roles.
There’s my two cents.
I had to chuckle when I found this new Southern Baptist online resource, aimed at guiding high school and college students in their ministerial callings:
https://sbccalled.com/about/
It is sponsored by the SBC seminaries [including Albert Mohler’s SBTS], yet describes ‘Discipleship Pastor’ as a ministry open to women!
https://sbccalled.com/positions/discipleship-pastor/
“The work of a Discipleship Pastor is significant to the development of and ministry in any New Testament Church…to guide the church in developing and maintaining a comprehensive strategy as well as enlist and equip disciple making leaders.”
“…HE OR SHE accomplishes this task by being knowledgeable, supportive…”
Other callings open to women, according to this Southern Baptist resource, include:
CHAPLAIN
https://sbccalled.com/positions/chaplaincy/
“Chaplains are trained to provide …pastoral services”
“Chaplaincy affords MEN AND WOMEN unique opportunities for ministry. Chaplains are in the people-care business. When people provide care to others, they provide it unto God”
MINISTER OF STUDENTS
https://sbccalled.com/positions/minister-of-youth-students/
“A minister of students (Youth Pastor) has the responsibility to plan and coordinate everything a local church does to minister to students and their parents”
“HE OR SHE works directly with students…this work includes…time spent one-on-one”
COLLEGIATE MINISTER
https://sbccalled.com/positions/collegiate-minister/
“…sponsoring of a weekly worship services, evangelism, missions, and discipleship. The campus based Collegiate Minister has various groups that HE OR SHE relates to…”
Wisdom from the pages of Charles Spurgeon’s The Sword and Trowel:
https://books.google.com/books?id=DSUEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA211
“…from an examination of the titles given to Church officers in the New Testament…the term elder is applied both to bishops and deacons…distinct officers were recognized by the Church, but they were lovingly blended together. There was no contention about a name as expressive of an authority, which it would have been sacrilege for others to invade.”
The word “pastor” comes from the Latin word for shepherd. Jesus said “I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep” (John 10:11). A good pastor would model his ministry after Jesus, would give his life for others. A good pastor wouldn’t be defined by the Baptist Faith & Message, but would have his identity in Christ. A good pastor wouldn’t work within the confines of the teachings and traditions of men, but would be led by the Holy Spirit.
What can only a pastor do? Live like Jesus. Which, of course, is the charge for every believer … to be priests, a royal priesthood which has no distinction in race, class or gender. Thus, we are essentially all called to be pastors – to minister in the Body of Christ and in the world as He leads. One may lead us (we need leadership), but s/he is no more important than the rest of us in the Kingdom of God on earth in the here and now.
I did.:^)
CM&A Canada has ordained women since 2016.
They accept complementarian churches also.
From Statement on the Roles of Men and Women in Ministry
An Official Statement of The Christian and Missionary Alliance in Canada 2016
2.6. To be a denomination that trains, credentials and ordains those who interpret Scripture from both egalitarian and complementarian perspectives. We will welcome both to fill denominational leadership positions. The Alliance is committed to allowing denominational leaders to live within their theological convictions regarding the roles of men and women in the church while providing reasonable accommodations that enable them to uphold Alliance policies where conflict between convictions and policy arises.
If we would genuinely surrender authority back to Jesus, we wouldn’t have confusion in the church about who can do what. In its current condition, Jesus has little authority and influence in the American church … so we retreat to what some mere man determines that only a pastor can do, what we have to believe, who can speak and who can’t, who can minister and who can’t, who can say jump and how high the rest of us have to.
Max, you are spot-on. Jesus has little authority and influence in the American church. No wonder there are divisions.
Jerome,
So they’re doubling down making changes but forgot to scrub their online record?
Hypocrisy? Incompetence? Fraud … as noted in the post? Short memory? Fake “truth” that changes with the winds of politics?
When the pastor is elevated to an idol, that only works for men, not women, in our patriarchal culture.
Thus only men can be pastors, in that patriarchal context.
Leadership or administration is another entirely different gift from pastor.
Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4.
And no gift from the Holy Spirit lords it over others, as you noted, Max, and as Jesus said.
“Since TWW’s reading population is broadly based, I would love to hear what you, the reader, think about the answer to this question. (What do only pastors do?)”
– from Dee in this post.
Now let me answer with a question: WHO IN THE WORLD, IN THE CONTEXT OF “CHURCH”, DOES THIS?
Moreover, Dee used the word “love” as in love to hear from readers, what they (we) have to share. Wow, just wow.
Dee is not just shaking our hand, passing the collection plate, asking for sign-ups for nursery duty, bring a casserole, and sending us on our way, scooting us out the door ASAP.
Surreal.
And noted that there are PASTORS who can’t stand the fact that at TWW, everyone shares AND listens. These select pastors can’t stand the power of listening cuz they don’t do that.
LOL. They don’t get it.
Thank God, Jesus and His Holy Spirit do. Listen. (Moreover, we are not Jesus’ giving units. Jesus and His disciples had no giving units. Didn’t exist in the NT.)
(Some TWWers do l-o-n-g and frequent comments. When you’ve been sitting silent in the pew for decades, then a thoughtful Christian asks you what you think, the floodgates burst open with a deluge. Mercy. Look out. Duck. Run for shelter. I’m guilty.)
One commenter on SBCVoices wouldn’t say it point blank (men/males), but he did say that there isn’t anything a pastor can do that other men can’t do. This guy tries to use a “gracious” code way of saying, “No girls allowed.”
I started gagging on that double-speak a long time ago.
“What Can Only a Pastor Do?”
++++++++++++++
nothing.
it’s sort of like my prayer group. they look to me to start and end the meeting and keep it going when it’s uncertain what should happen next.
other than that we all make it happen together.
sometimes I’ll ask someone else in the group to lead the meeting. they are capable, and do it in their own way. the guidelines are very general, and there’s room a different emphasis.
because the buck stops with me, my job is to make sure we do what we purposed to do. that’s it.
[start and end on time, focus on time well-spent in prayer, and I make sure everyone’s ok (not overlooked at the meeting, things ok with them & their family, etc.)]
elastigirl,
“What Can Only a Pastor Do?”
++++++++++++++++++++++
whatever those who lay the road of conjecture fancy decide it is paved with.
elastigirl,
Nice.
– are not boys and girls under 18 supposed to lead their parents, often? Out from error as a change from into it?
– Are boys and girls under 18, or are they not, supposed to be copastors, coevangelists, coprophets, coteachers and coapostles?
– Is “youth ministry” supposed or is it not supposed, to dumb down the Gospel and rob boys and girls of the adult heart they already had (contrary to the prophets and James)?
– do the churches changing their job titles from pastor to minister think staying in the SBC worth all the other risks?
– Given that Spurgeon has it correct, it is not direct hypocrisy (but potentially indirect) to do as Stephanie described.
– The SBC love you joining in this fuss of theirs because it means you are ignoring their core ills.
– Did your being southern stem from Jesus’ direct gift or the gift of a strangely run organisation?
Superbly put.
He frequently needs putting in His place.
My background for this take on the question is I was initially brought up going to a Methodist church then in the RC church which my mother turned to after the death of my father, was confirmed in the Church of England to rebel, had contact with all sorts of Christians through living in a missionary college as a student, have been a Benedictine monk and am now a pagan witch.
My take is the question is the sort of question you would hear in an Episcopal/sacramental church, not in an Evangelical or mainstream Protestant church. ‘What can only priests do? Say mass, hear confessions, but deacons can do weddings’, type of thing.
Even those sort of churches would say anyone can baptise a baby if it’s in danger of death, though.
I think the Protestant world may be lurching in a more ‘catholic’ or sacerdotal church direction. This is also seen in the change to more Protestants switching to the ‘pro-life’ position.
You did want views from your diverse readership (grin).
Seconded.
Only if it’s in a public or semi-public space with other people in direct line of sight. “Two-deep leadership” or “no private meetings” is the first principle of youth protection. Learn it, live it.
Bene D,
The SBC could learn from this model. Both the complementarian and egalitarian positions have conscientious supporters who make their case from the Bible. In my opinion, the egalitarians have the better case, so complementarians should be wary of being dogmatic and rigid on the subject.
The thought occurs to look toward Jesus’ self-understanding, for example in Jn 10:
“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep”.
Interestingly, the author of 1 Jn seems to see (in 1 Jn 3:16) a general call in Jesus’ example.
I think that a more important question than “what is unique in terms of pastoral function?” is “what does it mean to be a good pastor?”.
Lots of “hired hands” leading churches in our day, IMO.
In the Catholic Church, only a bishop can ordain another bishop, a priest, or a deacon.
Only a bishop or priest can say Mass: that is, consecrate the bread and wine, or perform the Sacrament of Confirmation.
Only a bishop or priest can give absolution for sins in the Sacrament of Reconciliation and perform the Anointing of the Sick.
Only a bishop, priest, or deacon can read the Gospel and preach during Mass.
Ordained clergy (bishop, priest, or deacon) are the “ordinary ministers” of baptism and matrimony, but the validity of these sacraments does not depend on their participation. Anyone can baptize, and the Sacrament of Matrimony relies on the couple themselves, with the clergyman as a witness.
A Bishop is the official head of a Diocese. He will generally employ a variety of clergy and lay people in the functions of the organization. A priest is the official head of a parish. (Same).
In the Catholic Church, many of the functions that are typically done, in other churches, by people with the title “pastor” can be (and are) performed by lay people of either sex.
When Paul’s words in those passages are filtered through what Jesus said in the Gospels, it is clear that the Body of Christ is to operate much differently than our futile and aberrant attempts to do church in the 21st century. When Christians start reading the Word themselves (the whole of Scripture), they will find that the teachings and traditions of men have led them off-track. Thus, they aren’t experiencing the presence of Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit in their midst. But the good news is, Jesus is coming back for a church without spot or wrinkle … so, somehow all of this will get corrected before His return after some good washing and ironing.
“A hireling, he who is not the shepherd … does not care about the sheep.” (John 10:12-13).
Lots of “pastors” are shepherds in name only; they do not truly care for those entrusted to them as they ought. Many are more concerned about control than comforting others … more concerned about celebrity than humility … more concerned about performance than personal holiness … more haughty than holy … more concerned about theological rightness than righteousness … more concerned about theo-icons than Jesus … more concerned about ‘their’ mission than the Great Commission … more concerned about producing disciples of themselves than disciples of Jesus … more concerned about preaching another gospel than proclaiming ‘the’ Gospel.
Hirelings they are.
From my experience with SBCVoices, they don’t represent the voice of most Southern Baptists (millions are non-Calvinist). In their early days, SBCVoices promoted New Calvinist belief and practice … and the “beauty of complementarity.” Most Southern Baptists would not agree with the gender-bondage which has occurred under NeoCal reign … but they essentially support it by blindly giving their tithes and offerings to the NeoCal mission.
What can only a pastor do? In answering that question, it’s helpful to take a look at what they are ‘supposed’ to do:
“… see that your “flock of God” is properly fed and cared for. Accept the responsibility of looking after them willingly and not because you feel you can’t get out of it, doing your work not for what you can make, but because you are really concerned for their well-being. You should aim not at being “little tin gods” but as examples of Christian living in the eyes of the flock committed to your charge … defer to one another and wear the “overall” of humility in serving each other. ‘God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble’ … Be self-controlled and vigilant always, for your enemy the devil is always about, prowling like a lion roaring for its prey …” (1 Peter 5 Phillips)
All Christians are capable of doing that with the authority of Jesus and power of the Holy Spirit … regardless of race, class or gender. I’ll accept a woman pastor any day who will live like that over a man who won’t.
I think all these problems about the term “pastor” and what exactly it means comes from an authoritarian view of God.
Authoritarians like Mohler, Piper, MacArthur, etc… seem to think God is requiring us to peer back through 2000 years of history to a collection of ancient letters and piece together EXACTLY what all the ancient leadership terms (pastor, elder, deacon, etc…) mean.
I’m unconvinced we can come to a perfect understanding of how the ancient church organized itself. I’m also unconvinced that God requires us to organize our current churches using the model of the ancient church, even if we could understand exactly how it functioned.
But if a person views God as primarily concerned about authority and submission, one will become obsessed with these topics in the context of church governance.
I think the better way forward is to look at principles demonstrated in Scripture regarding leadership (humility, accountability, etc…) and create governance structures that incorporate those ideals.
Wow! That would be a radical shift in the way we are doing church now … but it would probably get God back in the house!
What should a pastor NOT do? They have no authority to:
1) Act as mediator, since we have only One,
2) Act as Lord over the conscience, improperly “binding and loosing” and claiming authority by the “keys of the kingdom,”
3) Decide who may or may not participate in the Lord’s Supper,
4) Demand submission instead of earning it through trustworthy service and teaching.
It is the job of pastor to “bind up the brokenhearted,to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound” Is. 61:1. “Binding and loosing” has absolutely NOTHING to do with church authority. And the “keys of the kingdom” are knowledge and faith, the two keys that open the gates of heaven. All Christian hold these keys – the words of the Father, the Gospel.
We have a serious problem of abuse of authority by church leadership in our churches and denominations.
I think the SBC is still getting it backwards. They are still trying to decide who is allowed to do what, make them some sort of shaman through some sort of ordination or appointment, and then expect them to serve in that capacity.
I believe the Bible teaches rather that we look around us, see who is really serving, and recognize them as doing so.
Case in point: both Max and Ava are very good preachers. They are getting the truth out. Doing the job. Need no special touch from any human group or individual to do so. The rest of us can honestly recognize their capable service. Not appoint them to it, that is God’s job. Just recognize it.
I do not hold with the idea that God restricts hatching, matching, and dispatching ceremonies to the clergy or dispensation of Communion. But states often do require licensing for at least the first three, most especially the matching and dispatching.
Around here many Christians have so left the idea of religious shamanism that they are married by judges. Cremation takes place and the family has private services and disposes of the ashes privately. Evangelization takes place outside the doors of the church building and often so does private baptism and communion.
And that is all good. Many of the people in poverty have found ways to have a robust faith without depending on people expecting 10% of their income off the top. It works.
Amen & Amen! Therein, lies the problem with much of the American church. We have substituted a counterfeit authority instead of bowing to the genuine authority of Jesus over ‘His’ Church. We are under the influence of mere men, rather than Christ.
Authoritarians like Mohler, Piper, MacArthur, etc… seem to think God is requiring us to peer back through 2000 years of history to a collection of ancient letters and piece together EXACTLY what all the ancient leadership terms (pastor, elder, deacon, etc…) mean.
Paul K,
I think it’s more than that; worse than that.
They want to live in and control a a religious socio-political world modeled after first century secular Greco-Roman culture…. where they have all the power and women and other “lesser thanks” have no rights…….. I think they are truly striving to model their version of Christianity after ancient Greco-Roman culture…… for the glory of God.
(With all the modern comforts of course, like espresso machines and Lincoln Aviators.)
Not just the men you listed, but many, many more.
Dale Rudiger,
Three of the four things you listed as “not do’s” also fit the what the SBC thinks a good “Christian” husbands should do.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
“They want to live in and control a a religious socio-political world modeled after first century secular Greco-Roman culture”
++++++++++++++++
seems to me this advances an industry – the food chain of jobs & the ladder of the org chart.
seems to me there is too much investment (financial & reputational) for christian organizations not to do otherwise.
and to interpret ‘biblical’ accordingly. presented with scare tactics, smoke & mirrors to control the plebs.
eh (that’s a close enough phonetic spelling), that’s what i observe.
Tim Kauffman has written an excellent article on the misinterpretation of Matthew 16 and 18 as it pertains to authority.
https://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=364
Good call.
When an expert may not be an expert, here’s research and discussion with Michael Lewis et al. They are assessing appropriate ability and expertise for tasks versus systematically believing one has more expertise, ability, and a greater role, than is realistically practically appropriate:
https://youtu.be/fFUKPXUT9H8
Thank you for this accurate breakdown.
As you correctly note at the end, both sexes are involved in lay ministry. Many women are in leadership positions in lay ministry.
“The churches who respond by simply changing the title of the women who are serving them will be the churches who don’t care to give any thought to this question at all.“
I think the issue is many churches didn’t give much thought to the issue at all, particularly when given ways to avoid the issue as something requiring a stance one way or the other. I’m familiar with a SBC church where they had pastor as the title that went with most ministry leads, leading to females titled as the pastor over children’s ministry and then some other ministry that I don’t know was cast as a “preaching/teaching” ministry as opposed to something possibly seen by many as an event coordinator.
I seem to recall that during the congregational approval process for one female, the senior pastor at the time may have indicated that for anyone that had an issue of the pastor titling, that he offered male authority/headship to cover that, being over all the other pastoral positions in the church.
Basically, I think there may have been a lot of punting on the issue, not only from those putting it in the disputable matters category to people who haven’t necessarily gone over things as far as making definitive decisions as far as denominational level commitments.
I don’t think it’s definitively a matter of fraud for a church that has a pastor title that applies to a woman overseeing a children’s ministry to shift to a term like director while this matter plays out if there’s never actually been a full discussion about the matter and the implications, maybe not beyond what the church in the above example has done. Sure, we can talk in aspirational terms about what churches should do, but how many are even talking about what exactly the cooperative program is funding as far as the North American mission board etc.?
What this hopefully could do would be for churches to actually have a larger conversation about all these things and take a look at Scripture including proof texts that are being used towards church covenants, top-down constructs, abuse paradigms shielded by misuse of Matthew 18, 1 Corinthians 6, Hebrews 13, and so forth. What the reality will be may fall in predictable patterns barring enough people taking all such matters seriously.
Never spend 3000 words on something for which 300 will do nicely, that’s what my English prof. used to say all those years ago.
I’ve quipped many times that you (generic you) can manufacture just about anything you want from the Bible. Even the gravel and asphalt for the direction you want the road to go.
So will I Max, so will I.
Hmmmm … I resemble that remark … I bet Ava is talking about me … perhaps I should rethink the length and/or frequency of my comments. My wife says I can talk the bones off a chicken … I suppose that is true.
Like me! If anyone would like to be Stewardship Commission chair or Spanish Music Director at my parish, let me know.
Agreed. And that should be a role of the congregation, rather than a religious hierarchy. The people of God are quite capable, by the Holy Spirit, of recognizing spiritual gifts and making room for them in their churches.
As an example, choosing and appointing the first deacons were done by the congregation:
“the twelve summoned the whole body of the disciples together and said … look round and pick out from your number seven men of good reputation who are both practical and spiritually-minded and … put them in charge” (Acts 6)
A few months ago, my family left the non-denominational church we’d been attending for about a year. The leadership team had both men and women. It had just hired an interim solo pastor. Whenever he preached on church leadership, he made it clear it was just for men. I was not thrilled. When we found out he was also in a pastoral training program at the (rabidly complementarian) church that gave me PTSD, we left.
Found our way to a church in an egalitarian denomination. They had never had a woman pastor, but after the leadership team read “A Church Called Tov,” they realized the need to involve “those on the margins” in positions of leadership in the church. To that end, they affirmed the calling of their children’s director and ordained her as children’s pastor, instead.
I think this is a good sign.
My understanding is that several families left over the matter. Even though they’d attended an egalitarian church, when the rubber met the road, they took off.
Max,
“My wife says I can talk the bones off a chicken ”
++++++++++++++
sounds like fun. wish we could all do it at a table with a great meal, and a candle.
elastigirl,
it would need to be chicken, of course 🙂
Righto. Well, decades of sitting silent in the pew would be listening to far more than 3000 words.
When finally given the chance to respond, the pew person may have a good bit to say. HOWEVER, surely the volume pales in comparison to the mass amount of listening in the pew they’ve done over decades, while the pulpit rambles on as one solo booming voice dominating the room.
So, who needs to economize their words and then listen to others for a change?
Surely the pulpit could take the advice from your English teacher.
Regarding communion, when covid lock-downs hit in 2020 I was trying to create meaningful religious exercises to do with my children at home from scratch (because, no offense, but a lot of the evangelical kids’ resources out there are just awful). In researching the history of Easter and Good Friday, I realized that the first “communion” that Jesus celebrated with his disciples bore an uncanny resemblance to Jewish blessings said at the start of sabbath/shabbat on Friday evening.
Go figure.
Using those as a launch pad, I created a set of “Sunday blessings” for our family that we did regularly. When we happened to be visiting a church quite a while later, communion was offered during the service. I turned to my then-six-year-old and asked if anything seemed familiar. She got a big grin and said, “Sunday blessings!”
Learning more about Jewish history and traditions during the time of Christ has been extremely revelatory. I kinda wonder how many of our current debates would be settled if more evangelical big wigs would study up on the topic.
Max,
Next time I make Brunswick stew, would you come debone the chicken for me?
Are they the same ones who believe that un-baptized babies who die are cast into hell?
There’s a mega-biggie (church) down the road a piece from me.
On any given Sunday the huge and expansive parking lot is packed full of high-end rides.
Lotsa’ Lincoln Aviators, Ford F-150s, Mercedes SUVs, GMC Yukons and Dodge 2500s
Monday I noted above that there’s an SBTS-sponsored website approving of women being Discipleship Pastors.
Tuesday the site was featured in an article in the SBC’s Baptist Press!
https://www.baptistpress.com/resource-library/news/complementary-websites-prepare-students-for-campus-missions-church-ministry/
SBC Called “works to identify and shape high school and college students called to ministry”, it “launched shortly after the 2021 SBC Annual Meeting”.
I looked more at the Discipleship Pastor description. Not only does this SBTS-sponsored resource use “HE OR SHE” referring to this type of pastor, but further says:
“PERSONS are selected for the position of Discipleship Pastor…”
https://web.archive.org/web/20230719040941/https://sbccalled.com/positions/discipleship-pastor/
It ends saying that a Discipleship Pastor may be called ‘Family Ministry Pastor’ or ‘Small Groups Pastor’ in some churches. And explains that there can be “Discipleship Pastors to a particular segment of a church’s population”, since “ministry to preschoolers, children, youth, young adults, senior adults, single adults, and college students” are actually “discipleship related ministries”.
1.
JDV,
The best “amplifying pastors” I knew were a couple of boys about 12, who were kindly enough and realistic enough to not deafen us. Obviously the industrial complex had been slacking and had not got to them yet. (We didn’t have regular “youth ministry” at that church.)
They would sit next to the opinionated old bloke that often did it, to get the hang of it, and when he was absent they would do much better.
One of those was our joint best drummer also (with a very old, local born man of West Indian extraction).
I intuit girls of the same age would have done as well as them – again, if not got to yet. It was the devil that invented the idea that boys have got to beat girls – not the boys’ or the girls’.
(We had very few girls there, except one who sang a lot – well.)
There is the gift of wisdom in the young, but hierarchies commit the crime of rational larceny (snatching the bread of life out of the mouths of orphans and widows).
One of the worst “amplifying pastors” I’ve known was the husband of a womens’ minister who had to prove that he wasn’t a spare wheel, and be “heard” to be doing something of “status”. She was probably fairly good what she was doing because at least she was intuitive. He however neither intuited not inferred (both of which are sins to the false puritans).
2.
Church order gets alleged to be derived from doctrine. At Dee’s church and some others, there are ordination rules, which are in God’s eyes meant to be neither here nor there for our attachment to Jesus and our encouragement of our peers.
(This might be what you mean Dee, when you say you “get” it.)
The churches that are causing the trouble are faulty in their doctrine in areas not related to ordination but to the very basis of belief. That is why we mustn’t take wrong notice of their diversionary tactics, which they made hurtful on purpose.
For Evangelicals and Protestants, there’s our Jewish heritage, Abraham to Jesus, and Catholic heritage, Peter to Luther, that the post-Reformation churches deny and ignore.
Messianic congregations and Catholic parishes fill in the gaps. All available and welcoming.
Skip the bigwigs. Christians can reclaim these heritages without the bigshots. No middleman.
Dale Rudiger,
There’s more to the Catholic Church and our Catholic heritage than Peter and Popes. Just like there’s more to Judaism than the Sanhedrin and the high priests Annas and Caiaphas.
Christians have centuries of heritage in both camps, as opposed to throwing the baby out with the bathwater or IOW, as opposed to cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face.
Personally, I’m not a fan of the man Luther yet his 95 thesis make sense against the backdrop of church corruption of his time.
(OTOH I have yet to see the redeeming qualities of anything Calvin. Just sayin’.)
Ava Aaronson,
This comment is in response to the linked article posted at the Trinity Foundation website.
Calvin was a monster who should never have been a pastor. The Consistory in Geneva was abusive and dishonored Jesus even to the point of torture and murder. I am a proponent of open communion, and probably would have been in danger since I would have come to the defense of the Perrinites, who were unjustly excluded from the Lord’s Supper. The problem with authoritarian church structures, whether Catholic or Reformed or Pentecostal or Anglican, or whatever is that they abuse the sheep and usurp the authority of Jesus. They grieve the Holy Spirit. They are anti-Christian.
Perhaps the harshest warning of Jesus was to those who abuse His weakest sheep: “Then they will go away to eternal punishment.”
simply an attempt to appear more female-friendly as things heat up in the SBC … it’s typical stealth and deception stuff on the part of the NeoCals … they don’t ‘really’ mean “Pastor”
meanwhile, Tropical Storm “Calvin” is gaining strength in the Pacific … the Hawaii Governor has declared a state of emergency
is “redemption” a word used in Calvinism?
Jerome,
Jerome, I haven’t said this before, but “You’re the man!”
I have found your posts very informative and helpful as I sort through the SBC mess.
In order to answer all the questions and problems posed by the author of the “Voices” article, I think the SBC would have to adopt a convention-wide church polity which specifies the org chart, job titles, and job descriptions for every member church and then restricts certain job titles to men. But, of course, that would undermine the autonomy of local churches.
Maybe that is what this is really all about: undermining the autonomy of local churches and bringing them under the authority of a small group of people at the head of the SBC.
= New Calvinist agenda in SBC
They’ve been accomplishing just that, slowly but surely through their stealth and deception modus operandi.
Bringing the Predestined Gospel of CALVIN.
CALVIN who alone Has God All Figured Out.
His THEOLOGY Was Correct and Perfect in Every Way!
(Just like The Inevitable Marxist-Leninist Dialectic!)
Amy Byrd just had a post on her response to Michael Bird’s advice for egalitarians in a complementarian church.
For context, up until quite recently Amy was a staunch complementarian in a complementarian denomination (Orthodox Presbyterian Church) who spoke out against the marginalization and infantilization (my words, not hers) of women in complementarian spaces. She references what happened in her most recent post.
I won’t spoil the ending for those of you who don’t know her story.
Amy Byrd – https://aimeebyrd.com/2023/07/19/my-thoughts-on-mike-byrds-thoughts/
Michael Bird – https://michaelfbird.substack.com/p/advice-for-egalitarians-in-complementarian
Just get your chickens from the Boneless Chicken Ranch – for any Far Side fans out there…
If Christ Himself tells Mary Magdalene to ‘go and tell’ His disciples that He has RISEN from the dead,
does that not open the field of candidates to both sexes who are called to ‘spread the Good News’???
What IS the ‘Good News’ aka ‘the Gospel’ but Christ Himself . . . no ‘other’ witness is needed or words to ‘explain’ Him, but only that He is acknowledged as the Christ?
He IS ‘the Gospel’. His assigned teachers point to HIM. And Mary Magdalene was told to ‘go and tell’ of HIS Resurrection . . . she was the Apostle to the Apostles.
Shepherdess? to bring that to those in her care that protects them from loss and harm and death?
What in the Bible is greater news than the Resurrection?
So, ‘the Bible says’ interpreted by men for men cannot ignore who was chosen by Our Lord Himself to ‘go and tell’ . . .
Male self-importance: a result of the Fall in Eden . . . a wound to all mankind
I think Our Lord knew that. He was the only One Who ever deserved to be raised up above others, but He chose the Cross instead. He chooses His messengers. Even the most fallen among us KNOW when we are cared for instead of preyed upon or judged to be excluded. Even the worst of sinners responds to the fruit of the Holy Spirit in the kindness and patience of a care-giver. . . ‘male’, ‘female’ ? where is the fruit of the Holy Spirit not given to someone because of gender?
?
readingalong,
“for any Far Side fans out there…”
++++++++++
you rang?
one of my favorites: “Wait! Wait! Listen to me!… We don’t HAVE to be just sheep!”
(i dunno, kinda apropos)
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/277675133250200982/
I first met a woman pastor during the LBJ years, when she served at our church. Around that time, our congregation started to let women serve as ushers, deacons, and elders. Although I was a kid, I do remember the joy.
More recently, I’ve been attending churches with women pastors since the early 1990s. It is so utterly normal, folks.
So. Utterly. Normal.
christiane,
I would like to see some Calvanista’s try to G$d is was wrong for G$d to be the first person to “ proclaim the Gospel”… i.e. preach..
Lovely.
I take it none of the men lost their manhood over this.
Nor did the women suffer a lesser womanhood.
Ava Aaronson,
Exactly.
Friend,
pretty sure the sky didn’t fall either?
elastigirl,
Not yet 🙂
Jeffrey Chalmers,
Err… typoes
I would like to see some Calvanista’s try to TELL G$d it was wrong for Mary to be the first person to “ proclaim the Gospel”… i.e. preach..
Jeffrey Chalmers,
Give em’ time, they’ll come up with something, and make it ‘Biblical’ to boot.
Thanks for the clarification!
Now, if you can translate what ‘G$d’ stands for in your context. And thanks again.
c.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Muff Potter,
Anything a pastor can do, I can do better!
Of those I described, at church X (the one with the decent drummers) their two best regular preachers were women.
Churches X and Y had suspect ties and they would subtly sabotage spiritual gifts outside church services.
Church W which I write little about, had even more suspect ties.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
I did think to myself: Funny – Jeffrey’s comments normally make sense…
Jeffrey Chalmers,
Also, I think it would be something like: she didn’t proclaim the good news to them, she just passed it on. Analogous to the fact that while God sovereignly ordains every sinful act (along with every other act, of course), this doesn’t mean that God is the author of sin.
I should write a book entitled “Sin”. Then I’d be the author of “Sin”.
Stephanie did soften on the use of the word “fraud” when someone pointed out the legal definition. The SBC and other churches do need to define for themselves what women can and can’t do, or there will be some shuffling of the labels as a practical matter. There is a good deal of confusion surrounding this, as well as hypocrisy. And it’s a distraction.
Nick Bulbeck,
Yea, I have been thinking about how a Calvanista would try to “explain away” it also…
If they REALLY believe what they say, they are trying to explain away the CHOICE that G$d made to be the first person, a women, to deliver the Gospel… any attempt to say that is not preaching is just BS..
We are charged with spreading the Gospel…. How is spreading the Gospel not “preaching”??.
Semantics, My Dear Wormwood.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Yea..
Jeffrey Chalmers,
“CHOICE that G$d made to be the first person, a women, to deliver the Gospel… any attempt to say that is not preaching is just BS..”
++++++++++++++++++++++++
she didn’t have 6 alliterative points, so it couldn’t have been preaching.
elastigirl,
Supervillain behind the pulpit — THE ALLITERATOR!
Fraud, huh?
“Barber said churches that use the word “pastor” differently could simply change job titles and be in line with SBC doctrine”
https://julieroys.com/southern-baptists-say-no-to-women-pastors-but-what-does-the-bible-say-a-pastor-is/
Yes, that’s Barber as in Bart Barber, the recently re-elected president of the SBC.
Another money quote from the same article:
““The New Testament does not define the word ‘pastor’ in any way near the way we define it today,” said Scot McKnight.”
And he adds that the long debate about the different terms used for leaders of the early church has persisted because “because the New Testament is not at all clear.”
I think if you look past the spiritualized language, groups of believers just decide what a pastor is and does based on their particular needs and circumstances. That’s what we’ve been doing since the first century. I wonder if we acknowledged that these decisions are mostly informed by pragmatism and tradition, we would fight about them less bitterly.
Not for some (present day). For some, the New Testament is a detailed ‘how to’ manual for everything.
In some circles, The New testament is to them what Torah is to ultra-orthodox Jews.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
i’ll talk to Pixar….
And what the Koran is to Wahabi Muslims.
“I’M A BARBER GIRL!
IN A BARBAR WORLD!
ALWAYS SUBMISSIVE!’
SBC churches have ordained 11-year-old boys. You can’t tell me there was any qualifications involved in that other than the boy wanting to be ordained.
BTW, I am ordained now. But I no longer see ordination as something special, but something anyone could be qualified to do, like being a notary. The main responsibility, though, to me, is not marrying people or officiating funerals, but becoming a mandated reporter. I have two religious degrees and am probably more qualified in that respect than many SBC pastors. But I took classes in mandated reporting just to become ordained.