Closeup of Jupiter’s icy moon, Europa. NASA
“Ninety-nine percent of the failures come from people who have the habit of making excuses.” George Washington Carver
Tommy Nelson and Biblical Boobs
I continue to marvel at the number of my experiences living around the country related directly to this blog. Tommy Nelson is the well-known pastor of Denton Bible Church. Denton is about an hour north of Dallas. He became well known in the 90s for his sermon series on Song of Solomon. Dallas Theological Seminary called him the Song Of Solomon Conference Speaker Emeritus. His church is nondenominational, and he graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary after playing quarterback in college, which means he is to be revered Texas-style.
My church in Dallas had him speak on his Song of Solomon series. Here is the study guide: The Song of Solomon, A Study of Love, Sex, Marriage, and Romance: Study Guide. It is what you might imagine. He uses this book to describe how to have a proper courtship and marriage, leaning heavily on the intimate stuff. There was the expected tittering of the listeners as he talked about such details as “breasts.” (SOS 4:5-6)
Your breasts are perfect;
they are twin deer
feeding among lilies.
6 I will hasten to those hills
sprinkled with sweet perfume
and stay there till sunrise.
For someone so well-versed in sex, Nelson seemed to approve of a youth pastor who was an abuser of students.
Frankly, I barely endured the sermon series, but Nelson seemed to know all about the Biblical “sex stuff.” Except he ignored what was happening in regard to sex abuse in his own church. Fox 4 KDFW reported FOX 4 Investigates: 14 girls sexually abused by North Texas youth pastor; the red flags the church ignored.
The former Denton Bible Church youth pastor is in federal prison serving a sentence for sexually assaulting two girls on church youth trips.
However, some victims bravely come forward to tell their stories. Nelson claimed that the youth pastor, Robert Shiflet, “deceived and used him” as well. The Roys Report posted One of 14 Girls Sexually Abused by Youth Pastor Calls Response of Texas Church’ Abomination’In fact, Tommy Nelson claimed he knew nothing until 2005 about the abuses.
‘(Nelson) claimed in a sermon last May that until 2005, he knew nothing of the sexual abuse perpetrated by a former youth pastor at his church.
At this point, I knew there was a problem. As you will hear in the video, Nelson, the king of all sorts of intimate details in the Song of Solomon, claims he never knew anything about what was happening. Shiflet was “the best junior high leader he ever had.
Nelson said: “I didn’t know the word “pedophile,” until 2005.”
This Biblical sexpert claims he never heard the word “pedophile” until 2005!!! The church claimed, “they did the best they could.” Nelson claims he was “used” by Shiflet. It seems he is deflecting the blame, which should rest squarely on his shoulders.
So, what happened, and did the church know? They loved their youth pastor despite the reports.
It seems like the answer is a resounding “Yes.” The Christian Post reported Texas megachurch repents for not involving women in decision-making after the abuse of 14 girls by an ex-pastor.
On at least one known occasion two youth workers confronted Shiflet about his being alone with girls, which he dismissed. They also raised concern with church leadership, including Pastor Nelson, about Shiflet’s being one-on-one with girls. Shiflet’s supervisor was told by Pastor Nelson that Shiflet should not be meeting alone with girls,” reads the letter.
However, “there was no evidence that any other corrective or disciplinary action was taken.”
…In 1999, a college intern also reported Shiflet’s inappropriate behavior, and church leadership told him to write the intern a letter of apology, which was reportedly never delivered. No further disciplinary action was reportedly taken against him.
The church didn’t promote him.
because of his pattern of being alone with girls and not focusing enough on ministering to the boys in his youth group.”
He was allowed to continue to be with the students. Read that line again; he was allowed to continue with the student. He finally left to go to another church and immediately got into trouble there.
Shiflet left Denton Bible Church to become the youth pastor at Fellowship Bible Church in Little Rock, Arkansas. He quickly got himself in trouble.
“On at least three occasions in Arkansas, Shiflet was seen alone with girls, reportedly touched one girl’s thigh, and kissed another. When the last incident was reported to the church in 2003, Shiflet was fired,” the elders wrote. “However, it was in Little Rock that the second crime for which Shiflet pled guilty occurred. Specifically, Shiflet admitted that he sexually assaulted, by sexual touch and intercourse, a 16-year-old girl in his youth group on multiple occasions over several years, including during a church trip to Florida.”
In 2005, Nelson and friends discovered the presence of sexual abuse in the church and were…stunned…
Finally, by 2005, the church began to believe the reports they were receiving.
By 2005, the church reported that a 19-year-old girl who had been in Shiflet’s youth group at Denton Bible Church disclosed to a church counselor that Shiflet started grooming her when she was 13 to 14 years old.
….The girl connected the counselor with another girl who had been in Shiflet’s youth group in Arkansas. That girl disclosed the sexual abuse Shiflet had committed against her over the course of years. The friend to whom the counselor was introduced was afraid and embarrassed and expressed her desire that the information she shared in that meeting not be discussed with anyone,” the elders reported.
Since Texas law did not yet mandate the reporting of abuse by clergy, the elders stated that no official report was made to authorities at that time. However, church leaders confronted Shiflet, who admitted his sexual abuse of the girls. The Denton elders responded by revoking his ordination in September 2005.
Who cared about the victims? No one.
The church offered little care to the victims.
In 2015, another of Shiflet’s former middle school students at Denton Bible reported to the church and police that he sexually abused her. The church responded by confronting Shiflet but offered no care to the victim.
It wasn’t until the parents of the first victim who came forward in 2005 approached Denton Bible leadership in 2019 and asked for help caring for their daughter, who was then in her 30s, that the church decided to reach out to the police.
“Recognizing the change in the law and finding no record that a report to authorities had been made, church leaders reported what they knew to authorities and hired the independent investigators. However, Denton Bible did not consistently follow-up with the family or offer care to the victim. As a result the family left Denton Bible,” the elder report states.
A third-party investigation found problems with Denton Bible Church
The church finally commissioned a third-party, attorney-led investigation. In May 2022 the report was released, and it didn’t look good for Nelson and the church leaders. Church Leaders wrote about it in We Never Got Trained on It in Seminary’—Texas Pastor Responds to Church’s Failure To Report Sexually Abusive Youth Minister.
The letter chronicles that Shiflet was employed by Denton Bible Church “to work with middle school students from 1996 to 2001. During this time, and despite his own policies to the contrary, Shiflet was observed regularly spending time alone with girls in his ministry, including before and after school, in his office, in his vehicle, in his home, and in a hotel room.”
Nelson gave Shiflet a recommendation when he moved to the new church in which he would reportedly abuse more students.
Though Shiflet was confronted about his behavior, including by Nelson, he was never formally disciplined. Further, when Shiflet sought a job as a youth pastor at a church in Arkansas, Nelson provided a recommendation.
The church revoked Shiflett’s ordination in 2005 but didn’t report the abuse of two victims who came forward.
In 2005, two of Shiflet’s Denton victims came to leadership at Denton Bible Church to report that Shiflet had sexually abused them. Since both women were 19 years old at the time, the church was not legally obligated to report their abuse to authorities—and they didn’t. However, they did revoke Shiflet’s ordination.
The church didn’t care for the victims.
In total, the investigators found credible accounts that at least 14 girls were victims of Shiflet’s abuse: 11 at Denton Bible and 3 at Fellowship Bible,” the letter says. “The misconduct described in these accounts was characterized by everything from grooming behavior and sexual harassment to criminal sexual abuse, abuse of power, and spiritual abuse. Equally troubling, was the consistent accounts that Denton Bible did not shepherd and care for the victims after they showed great courage in coming forward.”
The investigation said that only male leaders met with the female victims.
The 15-member, all-male elder board of Denton Bible Church in Denton, Texas, has admitted that they failed to prevent the sexual abuse of at least 14 girls by a former youth pastor, didn’t involve women leaders when evaluating abuse allegations and failed to provide adequate care for the victims.
“Our church culture lacked involvement of women in decision-making processes related to the abuse of these girls. Further, in almost all meetings with the victims, no women were present, which was inappropriate,” said board chair Curtis Elder and Senior Pastor Tommy Nelson
Some thoughts:
- I don’t believe Tommy Nelson when he says he never heard of the word “pedophile” until 2005.
- Nelson deflects by saying “he was used” by Shiflet. He pulls the “I am a victim, too” card.
- They knew Shiflet was meeting alone with underage girls in their ministry, and they did nothing.
- Even knowing this, Nelson recommended him to the next church. Nelson must bear some responsibility for more students being molested.
- I believe more victims did not and will not come forward.
- DBS claimed they did the “best they could.” That is not true.
- The male-only leaders of the church met alone with the female victims. I believe this was a way for them to intimidate the victims.
- It seems like women in the church have little to no input, and that speaks to the view of women in that church and may be the reason the church didn’t care for the victims.
- Nelson claims (in the video) that they never knew anyone who was molested until this situation. I don’t believe him. He is, after all, the Song of Solomon Sexpert.
- I would venture to guess that there are more pedophiles and molesters who attend Denton Bible Church. They’re in every church in which there are naive leaders and members.
- I am concerned that the current leadership is ineffective, and I suggest that the entire leadership team, including elders, resign. They are responsible for what happened to those young female students.
- The church allowed Shiflet to overlook the male students, who consequently got little attention in church. I call that collateral damage.
- The church leadership doesn’t appear to be too concerned about the parents of the abused either. I suggest that parents find a better church.
- Any church which cares more for the abuser than the abused is a church that has lost its way.
- I wouldn’t trust Nelson’s view on the Song of Solomon. If he doesn’t understand that sex can be misused, he is naive and dangerous.
It is time for repentance and apologies on the part of the church leadership. Mega repentance and lots of apologies ASAP. I guess that they will not be forthcoming. After all, Nelson is a former quarterback, and in Texas, this means never having to say you’re sorry.
“Biblical “sex stuff””
I venture to say that the early church never preached Song of Solomon that way.
“Nelson recommended him to the next church. Nelson must bear some responsibility for more students being molested”
“Do not hurry to lay hands on anyone [ordaining and approving someone for ministry or an office in the church, or in reinstating expelled offenders], and thereby share in the sins of others” (1 Timothy 5:22 AMP)
“Dallas Theological Seminary called him the Song Of Solomon Conference Speaker Emeritus”
I’m sure Mr. Nelson’s rendition of Song of Solomon is interesting, but it probably pales in comparison to potty-mouth Driscoll’s pornographic version.
Max,
Not as much as you might think. I noticed people seemed uncomfortable, furtively glancing to see if others felt the same way.
Titillating? Bible study for purposes of grooming adults.
There’s got to be a better way to study Song of Solomon.
Sounds like a ramped up version of Quiverfull.
Under the influence of the Holy Spirit?
dee,
You did excellent work in presenting a complete wholistic picture of what is/was going on with these people, leaders and supporters (since the leaders are directly funded by their supporters), over decades.
None of the adults in this picture care about kids, minors, youth, the trusting vulnerables.
Once again, here is a community culture that has transformed a church into a cult: the boys will be bad boys and in our polite society, they are entitled. Meanwhile, kids are destroyed, but kids are disposable while the bad boys do their thing … do their evil.
If there’s any good to come out of all these sex fiascos with mega-biggie churches, it’s that folks will not be as eager to give an automatic seal of approval, or shell out their shekels like they once did.
The times they are a changin’, just like Dylan (and Don McLean) wrote so long ago.
In short, big name, big tent fundagelicalism is no longer sustainable.
I suggest those who were sexually abused (and their parents) call Boz Tchividjian and get the ball rolling on lawsuits. I’m sure that lead pastor with the limited vocabulary has heard the word lawsuit before.
I wonder if these pastors have ever worked at Kamp Kanakuk? Seems they would fit right in.
Time for a few real life lessons for the pretending-to-be-uninformed clergy.
Seriously, the “I’ve never heard of that word” is another new defense, new angle of irresponsible unprofessional and downright evil clergy when it comes to misuse of power, money, and vice.
Clergy can rail from the pulpit about the realities of consequences of sin for everyone else … and then do the two step around their own consequential actions that destroy the lives of others (the vulnerable trusting ones in particular). *Rules for thee but not for me* was called out by Jesus about the religious elite of his day.
Supporters that fund the paychecks of these clergy are complicit, BTW.
“Do not hurry to lay hands on anyone [ordaining and approving someone for ministry or an office in the church, or in reinstating expelled offenders], and thereby share in the sins of others” (1 Timothy 5:22 AMP)
Giving dollars to a church with questionable leaders is the monetary equivalent of “lay hands”. So many churches are just extensions of their members (and not in a good way).
In my opinion, even bringing up the word “pedophile” is a distraction. It’s a male sexual predator going after adolescent girls, choosing the ones who are vulnerable and won’t push back.
He’s just like a high school football star going after freshman girls who don’t want to become outcasts, or a college BMOC hitting on vulnerable young women at parties, or a teacher of either sex hitting up the students for sex. Calling him a pedophile is trying to make him different and alien, not an incredibly common phenomenon.
Todd Wilhelm,
Yep- https://thekanakukinstitute.wordpress.com/about-ki/leadership/faculty-and-staff/
Thank you. It was a bit personal for me as you can tell.
FWIW, he gave preached these sermons to college students as well.
I attended Campus Crusade (now Cru) in the mid-90s while attending university. Over Christmas break during my Freshman and Sophomore years I went to their winter conference. Back then it was held in Atlanta for several days and had students from across the southeast. Nelson was the key speaker both years. One of the years he spoke from SoS, but I believe it was only to the guys. I don’t remember much of what he said, but I do remember one of the images in the book being explained in a matter-of-fact way that could be considered graphic today.
I cannot help but wonder if there was an increase of p*rn rentals at the hotels the year(s) he gave the talks.
FWIW, he
gavepreached these sermons to college students as well.Wasn’t Art Azurdia also a Song of Solomon “specialist?”
Todd Wilhelm,
I forgot I wrote about Azurdia’s Song of Solomon teaching series here:
https://thewartburgwatch.com/2021/06/07/art-azurdia-a-tree-is-recognized-by-its-fruit/
So What Else Is New?
“Song of Solomon Sexpert” — Like Deep Throat Driscoll?
Not Pedophile but Ehebephile.
“I keep getting older; they all stay the same age.”
— Ehebephile’s line from some (untraceable) movie clip, ogling high school girls
The exact pattern I observed at Arroyo High School, 1969-73:
Senior football jock (Alpha Male) lays claim to some freshman girl, everybody else (Beta Cucks) keep hands off if they know what’s good for them, Jock and Trophy marry as soon as she comes of age. Do not know how long said marriages last, but they leave a LOT of Beta InCels in their wake.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
These men with their slavering “interpretation” of the Song of Songs are just saying, “See, lust is GOOD when we do it!”
I wonder if it functions as aversion therapy for a lot of women. Sure does for me.
Indeed! Bad-boys in the pulpit would not have a stage if it weren’t for a gullible pew financing them. However, some congregations like pastors who are no different than they are, who are more flesh than spirit … it makes them feel better about themselves.
Give me a break. He had enough of a vocabulary to paint a vivid word picture of Song of Solomon. The Bible sexpert knew what “pedophile” meant.
The church needs to put some “Covenant Eyes” on this guy.
I happened to go to church Sunday, and to get there I had to drive between the jail and another church. The youth pastor of that church was put in the jail (not 200 ft away) at the end of last year for sexual assault of a 13 y o girl. I’ve not heard any gossip, so I looked online for any updates. Out on bail? Charges dropped? Prison? No result at all—but I did find the job opening they posted looking for a young man of unquestionable character. It was 8 months before they hired him, and only 5 more months before he was locked up. He was 45. So what I’d like to know, and likely never will, is: Did he have issues at some previous church or churches such as not paying enough attention to the boys? And maybe these kind folks could have had some warning?
I personally have never taken the S of S to be normative …as Solomon had over 900 wives.
And they call him the wisest man that ever lived?!! 🙂
Most likely. SBC has a real problem with that … passing bad boys around from church to church.
Tim,
Yes. Complicit with pedophiles and other evils. Complicit.
Here’s a mad thought. What if a large and influential christian organisation repented before a popular person’s bad behaviour escalated?
It must have happened at some point. I suppose we wouldn’t hear about it, by the nature of things; a bit like we don’t hear about the pastors who don’t become famous (humanly speaking, at least) for writing books and speaking at conferences because they’re busy locally.
How is it that many of our male leaders who claim to have the deepest understanding of total depravity somehow don’t believe that this depravity extends to grown men sexually preying on kids in churches? Nelson says it literally never occurred to him that such a thing could happen! What the *#%! We know he’s lying because we have proof that he knew about a lot of it. But even if we take him at his word about his alleged naïveté, that alone would disqualify him from ministry.
That was a question I asked people when this was being preached. No one had areat aanswer.
While I was listening to this series, cringing frequently, kids had been harmed in his church.
It could be that social media is exposing these preacher-bad-boys, sins once hidden in the dark corners of church … or there is a current outbreak of total depravity in the pulpit.
“I don’t believe Tommy Nelson when he says he never heard of the word “pedophile” until 2005.”
++++++++++++++
totally not believeable
good grief…. i know this word when i was 11. back in the very late 70s…
Max,
““Biblical “sex stuff””
I venture to say that the early church never preached Song of Solomon that way.”
+++++++++++++
why in the world is it even necessary?
(except as a product to sell, for marketing/branding/image, and as a gimmick to men so more men will feel like coming)
yeah, let’s dissect all the beauty, mystique, heart, & soul out of poetry until it’s technical writing.
When the church ceases to be spiritual, it has nothing left but flesh.
Todd Wilhelm,
You bet they worked at Kanakuk! The unnamed youth ministry supervisor in the report is none other than Keith Chancey (long-time right-hand man of Joe White at KUK and Director of K-7 and the K-Institute most infamous recently for being named in the USA Today/Nancy French reporting regarding molestations at KUK and Chancey’s chastising of a girl for noting she had been molested.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2022/05/27/sex-abuse-kanakuk-christian-camp-missouri-peter-newman/9907577002/
Shiflet was hired at Fellowship Little Rock by Chris Wilson, another long-time Denton Bible guy and Kanakuk counselor under Chancey’s leadership.
A great number of Denton Bible employees and volunteers worked at Kanakuk during the summers and beyond.
This Pervert Protection Program needs to be shut down!!!
BTW…anybody else find it unusual that the entire Little Rock media NEVER mentioned that this happened at Fellowship Little Rock (a very influential church and home of Dennis Rainey’s Family Life ministries…which also has had close ties to Kanakuk). Hmmmm…
Even when the sentencing was mentioned last year, the Little Rock media made NO mention of the molestations having occurred at Fellowship (as well and Denton Bible).
https://www.thv11.com/article/news/crime/former-little-rock-youth-pastor-pleads-guilty-to-transporting-minors-for-sexual-activity/91-e17936db-f6cb-417d-a033-6863f6682b0a
Fellowship Little Rock is clearly mentioned in the report about Denton…why is no one picking up on this in Little Rock? I smell some wealthy, well-connected rats!
Rob Shiflet is currently serving a 33-month sentence at a minimum security Federal prison in Forest City, Ar. His release date is 2/27/2023
Details here:
https://dentonrc.com/news/ex-denton-youth-pastor-gets-less-than-minimum-sentence-due-to-miscalculation/article_0c11c259-6c4a-5b74-81ca-b9ef24e7a568.html
“The Arkansas Democrat-Gazette reported Tuesday at the hearing that the plea agreement, which recommended a sentencing of 27 to 33 months to run concurrently, was below the sentencing guidelines of 41 to 51 months and below the statutory maximum of 10 years on the first count and 15 years for the second.
Shiflet was indicted on three counts of transporting minors across state lines to engage in illegal sexual activity and one count of coercing a minor to cross state lines to engage in illegal sexual activity. He pleaded not guilty in June 2020 but later reversed his plea in November 2020 to guilty of two counts of transporting.
“This defendant took advantage of his position of trust as a mentor to young people and instead used his power to isolate and sexually abuse them,” U.S. Attorney Cody Hiland said in a news release at the time of the guilty plea. “This predatory behavior is never acceptable, but it is particularly disturbing when the offender is a youth pastor. Our office will continue to aggressively pursue those who commit these deplorable crimes.”
Max,
well, quite frankly, i’m tired of the christian inclination to spiritualize everything.
“x happened because you were irresponsible about y, not because God is favoring you with his attention & mystically trying teach you something.
y happens to everyone who is irresponsible about x.”
.
.
at this point i prefer ‘the flesh’ and taking personal responsibility for it.
According to Encyclopaedia Britannica, Solomon’s name was added after the poems were written. They are ancient indeed. Interesting write-up here:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Song-of-Solomon
The Christian experience is all about balancing both, being careful not to venture out on either extreme.
Male leaders know this depravity extends to grown men sexually preying on kids in churches. It’s codependency.
Church provides cover for predators and perverts, provides salaries to those who don’t want the 8-5 deal with proper HR that would hold employees accountable for their behavior, etc.
Cheap grace is a toxic soup with a grand Evangelical invite for all to jump in and swim in each other’s muck.
These male leaders know about the depravity of their BFF-bros, and about the victims, as well as the atrocities.
Jimmy Carter did a TEDtalk about this:
Their theology silences and degrades women (also see Beth Allison Barr’s “The Making of Biblical Womanhood”) while they elevate men with machismo (see Du Mez’s “Jesus and John Wayne).
Finally, Carter says they just don’t give a %#$&.
The original Cancel Culture has always been about ghosting anyone and anything that stands in the way of or does not facilitate these leaders rise to power, pleasure, and profit.
Incidentally, for as scathing as the real report synopsis was (not the one mischaracterized by Nelson from the pulpit, but the real pdf avail linked to the news report), can you imagine how bad it would have been if it were written by a legit investigator NOT on the church payroll?
The “investigator” Nelson and his co-conspirators hired was….drumroll….the SAME guy who Andy Savage and Chris Conlee hired to run cover for their misdeeds at Highpoint in Memphis and the sex abuse and criminal acts toward Jules.
https://twitter.com/watchkeep/status/954181631027351552
Nelson should step down…but not with the massive golden parachutes Savage and Conlee received.
Max,
Nailed it, Max.
It’s all about cover.
Church is cover. Big Evangelical invite to the world of card-carrying Get Out of Consequences Free Grace.
The wisest mon the world e’er knew,
He dearly looved the lassies, oh!
Burwell Stark,
“One of the years he spoke from SoS, but I believe it was only to the guys. I don’t remember much of what he said, but I do remember one of the images in the book being explained in a matter-of-fact way that could be considered graphic today.”
++++++++++++++++
what in the world is that point of going into such graphic detail?
seems to me the power of poetry is saying much more by what it doesn’t say.
why destroy it all?
other than for totally self-serving reasons. in a theology halloween costume.
elastigirl,
I’ve rememberred what the S of S is about: church abuse. The foxes are those who steal the harvest (Holy Spirit, and bread of life) from the mouths of God’s beloved ones. Just like the whole Bible is against church abuse.
As for boys from the congregation hoping to get “something” out of youth group / superannuated Sunday School, we need to evaluate the worth of the trend to trendiness. Paradoxically those who missed out on “attentions” in this case may have had the “better” part (except for being kept sadly unawares of the fate of their sisters and peers – divide and rule within divide and rule).
In my young day, as we grew we found a lot of sense in what the preacher was preaching (to everyone) about helping each other, and trusting in God’s providence in those less comfortable days. God then didn’t manoeuvre and didn’t have to be manoeuvred. We were individuals and not a caste or castes. God and us had a thing going and we didn’t have to go through hoops or get “taken aside”.
Max,
And JP II’s ripe “family” fests. Trouble is, in God’s eyes neither marriage nor sex belonged to any religion (they just belong to us humans, at our best discretion).
Church cosplay. #Chollywood. Or the Vegas version: #Chursinos.
This is the problem with fundamentalism.
You strictly define marriage “one man, one woman” yet your “godly” patriarchs impregnated slave girls and had tons of wives and concubines.
You say “love thy neighbor” and “take the good news towards all nations yet god is on record as condemning all sorts of people to execution for a variety of moral crimes, wiped out whole cities to last man, woman, child and donkey (both talking and talking) and destroyed the entire population in a flood (again along with any speech enabled animals) – then once those folks were conquered he lovingly told the men to expel their foreign wives (a death sentence in antiquity)
And we wonder why this insanity continues in all streams of Christianity.
Well Jack doesn’t want or need 900 concubines, he’s one woman man of his own choice.
And he can eat whatever he wants at Red Lobster.
Take that, Solomon.
I didn’t realize this, thanks for highlighting it.
You expect to find rich rodents in politics and corporate America, but never in the church. Unfortunately, the Christian Industrial Complex has plenty of them scurrying around in dark places.
Agree with you for the most part, except I’m not sure they’re in dark places, anymore–they are “hiding” in plain sight! We, the body of the Church, just refuse to remove the scales from out eyes and call it out and hold these folks accountable (legally, or at least by voting with our feet and wallets).
The fact there are still members at Denton Bible Church and still campers at Kanakuk AFTER we know guys like Tom Nelson and Keith Chancey covered this sexual abuse stuff up is mind-numbing!
To quote Welcome Back Kotter, “Aversion Therapy or PERVERSION Therapy?”
And under Casino Rules, The House Always Wins.
If you are going to show up at Denton Bible anymore, it needs to be to boo Tom Nelson off the stage and to shame him!!
Problem is, we are more in love with these Kardashian-like celebridiot leaders than we are with Jesus. smh
We actually don’t know if Solomon actually wrote the SoS or Proverbs.
He was King, and if he COMMISSIONED them (an erotic poem and a collection of Wisdom Literature) he would still be accredited as the author. I think it’s much more likely he commissioned them as Royal Patron.
Or both.
Didn’t some Rabbi from Nazareth say “the things you do in secret shall be shouted from the rooftops”?
(That can mean more than the “This Was Your Life” video in the Jack Chick tract of the same name.)
Is there any link/video to this TEDTalk?
Church-goer at the table: “C’mon, Lucky Pastor Dice…give me a 7, go to Heaven”
(rolls dice)
Church-goer: “Dang! Snake Eyes! Got a sexual predator again!”
Time to quit gambling with these enticing (but predatory) morons. Bankrupt the Chursinos by leaving en masse.
Britannica thinks the poems predate Solomon. It shows four different schools of thought:
“The book, whose author is unknown (Solomon’s name is a later addition), is a collection of love poems spoken alternately by a man and a woman.
… “The fourth interpretation, and the one that has perhaps gained the most credence among modern scholars, is simply that the Song of Solomon is a collection of secular love poems without any religious implications. According to this interpretation, the songs celebrate the joy and goodness of human love between the sexes and the sense of inner fulfillment and harmony with God’s creation that arise from such love.”
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Song-of-Solomon
Yep, and the church in many places ain’t doing a darn thing about it! The pew needs to get over trusting just anyone with the title “pastor.” Wolves in sheep’s clothing? Nah, the wolves have found it more profitable to dress in shepherd’s clothing.
Why not?! Worked out well for Savage and Conlee … they are still in “ministry”! The American pew is the most gullible assembly on the planet.
That last comment’s attribution to Todd should have stopped after the release date. Typing error on my part. The rest of the post is my opinion/input.
Max,
It pays REALLY, REALLY WELL! (Like, literally, they-may-as-well-have-won-the-lottery well!)
Maybe, one day, the NDAs will be lifted at Highpoint and the tithers will know the real story of why Conlee ultimately left, how much he and Savage got paid, and who’s money was used. It is a fascinating (and thoroughly disgusting) story.
Friend,
Exactly. It’s a mistake to assume that someone’s name (in the title of an ancient text, or in its body, as in the Psalms) has *anything* to do with the contemporary understanding of authorship. My hunch is that the folks who 1st wrote these texts, plus those who collated them, would be pretty baffled by our assumptions about authorship (and tons of other things as well).
elastigirl,
THIS
Friend,
Again, exactly!
For anyone who’s interested, I highly recommend Marcia Falk’s translation of the Song of Songs. She’s a scholar and a poet, and she’s Jewish. Her book is out of print,,but it’s easily buyable online.
I am too.
I see the Song of Solomon as a celebration of human eroticism for its own sake and nothing more.
In Christian circles, the erotic is like a commodity that can only be used under very strict, specific, and exacting conditions; it must always be co-joined with some ‘higher’ purpose.
Never for its own merits as its own entity.
Thank you for this!
I study the Songs a lot. I have for over 20 years. I accept the sexual side of it as being real. But I study the allegorical side for reasons I won’t get into.
As I have studied it, there were times that I wish I had someone who understood the original language and symbolisms around to help with some of the verses.
The book you linked may be what I’ve been looking for.
Mara R,
I’m not fond of allegorical interpretations per the SoS. It’s love poetry, and beautiful just as it is.
YMMV, though! 🙂
Muff Potter,
Yeah, very much agreed.
Mara R,
I think we have to accept that much of the imagery and symbolism isn’t something we’ll ever really get, since we lack similar texts that would give context to both.
We’re really fortunate to have *this* text, just as it is, I think.
Hey AbuseCrusher,
You are obviously very knowledgeable about quarterback/pastor Tommy Nelson and his band of miscreants. I am curious if you are aware of any connection between Nelson and the attorneys who represented Rob Shiflet – Kevin Ross and Kristen Beckman? Also, any idea who bankrolled Shiflet’s case? I assume the cost of representation is well out of the range of a Baptist youth pastor.
Also, if there are any readers who could access the court records from Shiflet’s case I would really love to see a copy of his presentence report. It would be quite interesting to see who wrote Judge Rudofsky with positive comments on Shiflet.
“Texas criminal defense attorneys Kevin B. Ross and Kristen Beckman bring a team approach to the Law Office of Kevin B. Ross, P.C., a Dallas criminal defense law firm that provides PROFESSIONAL, PERSONAL, and PROVEN representation to people in Texas who are accused of state and federal criminal offenses.”
https://web.archive.org/web/20221012213137/https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2021/jun/23/judge-dismayed-by-deal-gives-33-months-in-sex/
Good article – I saved it to the Wayback Machine. Quotes below are from the article.
================
“Robert Shiflet, 50, formerly of Little Rock and now of Denton, Texas, was indicted last year on charges involving sexual contact with children. In sentencing him, U.S. District Judge Lee Rudofsky expressed his dismay as he handed down the most severe sentence he was allowed under a plea agreement Shiflet had reached with the government.
“You are a terrible person,” Rudofsky told Shiflet as he announced the sentence. “I don’t believe that you are sorry in the slightest. I don’t believe you have rehabilitated yourself. I believe you haven’t been caught again but I don’t believe you have rehabilitated yourself.
“I don’t think you are a good person and I don’t think you stand a chance of becoming a good person,” the judge continued. “If it was up to me and you had been found guilty after a trial, I would have sent you away for 25 years.””
“This is a very difficult case in my view and a difficult call I’m going to have to make,” Rudofsky said at the beginning of the sentencing hearing. Rudofsky expressed displeasure with the plea agreement, which bound him to a sentencing range of 27 to 33 months in prison on each count — to run concurrently — well below the sentencing guidelines of 41 to 51 months, and far below the statutory maximum of 10 years on one count and 15 years on the other.”
“I don’t know how I’m going to sleep at night if what Mr. Shiftlet gets for the conduct that is in the presentence report that I read, if Mr. Shiflet has to serve 33 months on both together — concurrently — maybe you all will explain to me under the statute how that makes sense but that does not strike me as a sufficient sentence,” the judge said to Bryant and to Shiflet’s defense attorneys, Kevin Ross and Kristen Beckman of Denton, describing himself as “flabbergasted” over the plea agreement.”
“I think you are dangerous,” Rudofsky said regarding the supervised release term. “I think you are a danger to the public, I think you are a danger to society and I do not think you should have any room to do this again.”
Yes. I’ll get back to you after my workday, when I get to my home computer.
It’s amazing to me that 2 of the points Carter made are fully presented, historically, in:
1. Kristin Du Mez’s “Jesus and John Wayne”
2. Beth Allison Barr’s “The Making of Biblical Womanhood”.
Apparently, it is once again quite obvious that truth/reality exist on its own, with very different individuals coming up with the same.
Different POV:
They know what’s up but refuse to deal with it. It’s too easy to disregard and discard victims. They are the disposables so the church party can go on.
The NT seems to paint a similar picture in Jesus’s day. Jesus lived compassionately. The religious leaders put Jesus on the cross with the vote of the people, the pew.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
I just searched for it and found it, although I have Carter’s book, too.
Highlights of talk:
#1 humanitarian crisis (or human dignity violation)- abuse of women (and children- my add, I think)
#1 is largely fueled by male control of and misinterpretation of religious texts, not just Christian
#2 violence motive
…bottom line: don’t wait for the men to “get it right.” Women have to/need to protect themselves and their children.
My add: there’s no time for cheerleading from the audience section for male quarterbacks, waste of energy and won’t help yours or anyone else’s kids.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfW3aZCFfLA
Todd Wilhelm,
I’m not sure about Shiflet’s attorneys and how they were paid. Do know that after Rob Shiflet was let go from the second church (Fellowship Little Rock) for inappropriately sexually touching students, he landed back in Denton (technically, Argyle, TX–a suburb) at Liberty Christian School in their tech department, where his brother, Tom, apparently works, too.
Liberty has very close ties with Denton Bible. It seems unlikely that they or Tom Shiflet didn’t know of his sexual predilections, yet they all still chose to put him around kids. The alternative is that the jerks at DBC KNEW he was back working with kids, and, again, did nothing about it! Both may be true &/or probable. At a minimum, the DBC guys knew (as his former Youth Director at Fellowship Little Rock moved to Denton to work in the DBC youth department)…still, all were either silent (or active?) participants. The youth director who moved from Little Rock to Denton was Chris Wilson (a Kanakuk guy) who now pastors his own church (Benchmark Bible) in the Denton area.
Tom Shiflet ran/runs an international rescue/adoption ministry called The Great Need (you can put thegreatneed.COM in the Wayback Machine, as the site seems to have been taken down). I fully hate to impune Tom Shiflet, as he may well be innocent, but given that he may have known of brother Rob’s issues and still let him around the Liberty kids, I think it must be asked, “What contact (if any) did Rob Shiflet have with the kids in that international rescue ministry?” Is that rescue legit, or was it a used for sex trafficking? I hope it was legit.
I hate to ask those questions, but responsible adults must! And my experience with churches and parachurches tells me to not at all be surprised if the whole organization was a front. I’m saddened to think so, but to not ask the question is to bury our heads in the sand. If Jeffrey Epstein had a brother with an international children’s rescue, we’d certainly ask some hard questions.
Liberty Christian’s reputation is not exactly stellar, either, as they employed former NY Yankees All-Star pitcher, John Wetteland, as a baseball coach before he was arrested for “continuous sex abuse of a child under the age of 14” (a relative), and Liberty hired former New Orleans Saints head football coach during the year he was suspended from the NFL (the first time a coach was ever suspended from the NFL) for having “bounties” to be paid to his players if the injured the opponents…nice! Fame > Character > Shepherding Faithfully in the modern Christian hierarchy of values.
numo,
How to read The Songs can be a huge source of contention. I’m not unfamiliar with this. I’m also saddened by it. To me, The Songs is layered, like much good poetry is. To me, there is plenty of room at the table for many views since it is The Song of Songs or The Best of Songs.
I take no issue with those who prefer to view it exclusively from physically sensual perspective. I only take issue with those who try to shut down perspectives they don’t like.
http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2009/08/trouble-with-boxes.html
Sandusky.
Large swathes of Christianity are just as sexually screwed up as the secular culture is, just in the opposite direction.
Ava Aaronson,
I love Jimmy Carter.
Tommy’s weasel-like “I was deceived” and “didn’t know what a pedophile was until 2005” statements seem to bring to mind a little bit of “the woman you gave me made me do it” defense, does it not?
This from a guy trying to peddle what “Authentic Manhood” (TM) is. Despicable!!
I guess it technically fits in with his “Biblical Manhood” (TM) series…probably should use examples of actually ADMIRABLE Biblical Manhood, if you are to be leading by example and from the pulpit, Tom.
Thanks again for the info.
I would love to see Shiflet’s Presentence report. I would not be surprised if QB Tommy gave a glowing endorsement of him and asked the Judge to go easy on him.
People say the darndest things in those Presentence reports. Tom Chantry had an old friend write a letter to the judge saying what a great guy he was. Tom’s friend was a state congressman from Illinois. He was running for re-election. I sent the letter to his opponent. She shared it with the media. The congressman ended up retracting his endorsement and won re-election by a narrow margin in what was supposed to be an easy victory for him.
In another case, my former father/son pastor team at Sovereign Grace Gilbert (now called Center Church) had written the judge letters asking him to go easy on a couple that had been attending their church for one month. Their crime? scalding the bum of a baby girl they had in foster care and were planning on adopting. I published their letters and they had to write the judge and ask him to retract their endorsements.
People don’t seem to realize these letters to the judge become part of the official court record and the public can obtain copies.
I loved that video in Dee’s article. Old man Tommy is still reminding everyone that he was a quarterback in college, therefore he can make the tough decisions.
Let me buy you a beer Tommy and you can tell me all about your “glory days.”
https://youtu.be/6vQpW9XRiyM
I can’t believe people idolize clowns like this.
Yeah, comically sad to lean on the “glory days”, but somehow forgivable and not terribly atypical “fish tales” for the male of the species. IMO
What cannot be tolerated is the arrogant, unrepentant covering up of ministerial sexual perversions and predatory perverts in the church! It is immoral, illegal, dangerous, and far more damaging than these self-interested dolts bother to ponder. We would never accept this behavior from secular institutions and players; it is weird that we have forsaken the liberty afforded by the torn curtain by giving our pastors blind, cult-like worship, instead of devoting ourselves fully to Christ and protecting those He’s entrusted to our care.
That’s the reality. And the reality of Tom Nelson’s illustrious football career is that he didn’t play much on really bad teams that won a handful of games in the 4 years he was there. He lettered one year, was ultimately cut (though injuries played a role). Any notions of Tom Brady-like grit and determination or masterful leadership to lead the team to wins against all odds are at odds with history or wishful thinking (whether on his part or the part of those who revere him so much they’d drink his bathwater, if asked).
Happy to help where I can.
You’re so right. Those pre-sentence reports tell you a lot about the players in this wicked industry and what motivates them.
I am reminded of Joe White (head of Kanakuk and former head of Promise Keepers) giving a recommendation to the court that they go easy on the pilot of his private jet–all that pilot had been doing was molesting one of his own (the pilot’s) family members…but he was a really good pilot!
Joe gave the pilot room and board at his Christian camp as he awaited legal proceedings to wrap. White also proceeded to pressure the wife of the pilot to take him back…after all, apparently, God hates divorce more than he hates molesting, according to White.
Such wacko behavior on the record proved to me beyond a doubt that Joe White has ZERO business being entrusted with kids and doesn’t have the common sense God gave a grape nut!
He does, however, have a nice jet…and a cult-like following (I think when you buy a jet, fawning fans are thrown in for free)…so he’s got that going for him, I guess.
“I WAS A FOOTBALL STAR IN HIGH SCHOOL!
ONCE I SCORED THREE TOUCHDOWNS IN ONE GAME!”
— Forty-something loser from Married with Children
As someone who spent four years as the Omega Cuck under the boot of Alpha Male Football Star after Alpha Male Football Star, bragging about how “I was a Quarterback in College/Football Star in High School” just does not cut it with me.
P.S. Isn’t ManaGAWD Chuckles Mahaney and his little playgroup really into Fantasy Football?
i.e. “NFL Team Manager, the Role Playing Game”?
Let me guess…
And a Really Strong Devout CHRISTIAN(TM)!
You’re stealing my shtick, Muff.
Cuz “Jesus and John Wayne”, so real men are into football. Recall Lil’ Pip espousing his football prowess while on a panel of theobros, cuz … “real men”.
That’s Pastor/athlete C.J. Mahaney to you, buster.
https://youtu.be/3RCStEsLPCw
Headless Unicorn Guy,
My bad headless, next time I’ll make sure to cite you.
Little ditty about Jack and Diane
Two American kids growin’ up in the heartland
Jackie gonna’ be a football star
Diane’s debutante backseat of Jackie’s car
— John Mellencamp 1982 —
No that’s HEAD APOSTLE OF THE PEOPLE OF DESTINY, with liveried flunkies blowing long trumpets before him to announce how HUMBLE he is.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
“ I WAS A FOOTBALL STAR”
+++++++++++++++
Guess he doesn’t realize he’s Napoleon dynamite’s uncle Rico.
Mara R,
Mara – same!
I do take exception to people refusing to read the poetry that’s in the Jewish Bible *as* poetry. Not wanting to go off on a tangent, but when people try to base doctrine on poetry, things *never* turn out right. That’s something that is stringently avoided by Jewish folks, from ultra-Orthodox to Reform and Reconstructionist, and it absolutely comes from being able to read the texts in their original languages. There’s just no way that Psalms, Job, Lamentations and more can be the base for any kind of “doctrine” within Judaism, let alone the S of S
Elastigirl,
Hah! Good one!
Muff Potter,
Well, but it can and sometimes does get extremely weird in other ways, like “Jesus is my boyfriend”-type stuff. ‘ Nuff said!
AbuseCrusher: We would never accept this behavior from secular institutions and players
Nottinghamshire County Council combined with their named solicitors (as recently as October 2019)? Parts of Hollywood? The point of compartmentalised yoof cultures every 6 to 8 years is deniability; institutions no longer have to inflict on over 35s what they trick the young into accepting. Secular bodies took the go-ahead from the lack of prayer by major religions just as they were establishing their dominionism (in gospel terms, shutting up heavens like brass).
I agree. The books of poetry are not for concrete, objective, black and white, right or wrong readings and thinkings.
The books of poetry deal more closely with subjective themes, the heart (a very messy place at times) and/or the human condition and/or wrestling with God over what we don’t or can’t understand (among other things).
While I love my allegorical studies of the Songs and what love can look like from God and a healthy man… And while I have meditated extensively for emotional and spiritual healing, I know better than to try to start making rules out of it for myself and others to live by. (A la Driscoll who preached commands to women concerning sexual acts from this book.)
I appreciate you going off on a tangent. It’s nice to be able to agree concerning the point of the books of Poetry and make room for each others preference for studying them.
Driscoll … MacDonald … Hybels … Zacharias … Tullian … etc. etc.
21st century pewsitters love their idols … and the idols laugh all the way to the bank. Jesus wept.
How does all this weird stuff get started?
And how does it get so much traction in various Christian circles?
How do people get so divorced from everyday reality?
As a trauma informed therapeutic recreation specialist in a residential treatment facility for trouble youth that treats a good deal of mental health issues, well, all I can say is there are lot of people with mental health issues that are undiagnosed. There are a lot of people in the church who have unaddressed trauma in their lives. AND there are some (maybe a lot of) churches causing a lot trauma in their people.
You wonder how this gets so much traction. I’m just kinda like, is it any wonder things are so wonky with Evangelicalisms horrible track record in dealing with mental health and trauma?
Muff Potter,
The type of thing I mentioned has a *very* long history in the Western church. I’m sure it’s cropped up in Eastern Christianity, too, though I honestly don’t know for sure.
I really don’t understand the deference many Americans give to (former) sports players, and football players in particular.
If I were an employer, I would be wary of them, doubly so probably. Why?
★ An entitled attitude (born out of privilege and adoration), never a good thing in someone you have to work with
★ Probably poor people skills – being a jock at HS you don’t even have to try
★ Probably didn’t get too much of an education – colleges have other priorities for their athletes. Also, the students themselves expect to be successful based on their past fame, coasting along on “I’m a former quarterback, you know” instead of relying on knowledge and skills acquired at uni
★ One too many concussions may have impaired their rational functioning
I know that this will not apply to every former athlete, but mention your quarterbacking once to many, and you’re off the shortlist
Gus,
It’s an American thing Gus.
Here in the States, Sports is big business and it influences the populace much in the same way as TV commercials for perfect white teeth.
Muff Potter,
As someone who was at the bottom of the heap in a Football-Crazy High School (Arroyo High, 1969-73), let’s put it this way:
Football Stars (“Once I Scored Three Touchdowns in One Game” = Herrenvolk.
All the rest of us (like me) = Untermenschen.
I trace it back to the “Bridal Mysticism” movement of the Late Middle Ages, a movement that expressed religious ecstasy in flat-out EROTIC language, on the order of “Thrust me though with Thy Divine Love! Fill me with Thy Holy Spirit as with child!” Filtered through cloistered nuns and monks who’d taken Vows of Celibacy at about age six. “Jesus is my Boyfriend”, “Jesus is my REAL Husband”, even “Jesus Is My EDWARD Cullen – SPARKLE SPARKLE SPARKLE SQUEEEEEE!” are but long-delayed echoes of Bridal Mysticism.
And as the ancient Jews (surrounded on all sides except the Med by Fertility-Cult religions) could attest, mixing the Sacred with the Erotic can get Very Weird Very Fast.
Which is why young girls need to be taught PUSH BACK and assertiveness without fear of retribution.
That it is NOT OK for adult males of ANY AUTHORITY stripe to crack off-color jokes and get too close to their personal spaces.
There appear to be noticeable similarities between Mr Nelson’s book and Matt Chandler’s Mingling of Souls and this is from Lifeway’s promotional
“ In The Mingling of Souls, Matt Chandler credits author Tommy Nelson with helping him create 10 “nevers” for regarding marital conflict:
Never respond to your mate brashly.
Never touch your mate out of temper or frustration, ever.
Never seek to shame your spouse in public (or in private for that matter).
Never fight in front of your kids (or use them as leverage in a disagreement).
Never mention your spouse’s parents or any other family member.
Never dig up the past; try to stay on topic.
Never try to win.
Never yell, use derogatory comments or verbally defame your spouse.
Never withhold physical intimacy or use sex to manipulate.
Never put off seeking resolution.”
Arkansas is the heart of The Bible Belt as well as Clinton Country.
Mixed messages = frazzled brains.
Handbook: Worship in Spirit & Truth
People on the dais / small screen: Worship by arm twisting and kow towing.
Lowlandseer,
I haven’t read either book, but surely there are a few others:
Never withhold a long term demonstrated repentance of toxic behaviors.
Never sweep dirt under the rug and expect it not to be dug up.
Never expect or demand reconciliation from spouse or children or mock the process with superficiality.
Never deny the ability of women to author books on this very subject or other subjects such as theology.
Never deny that authors of books like these need to read the afore mentioned books, for at least one clue.
Never compartmentalize sex and use nonsexual affection withholding to manipulate.
Never complain that you must consider women and children’s “nevers” too, their humanity, that would be nagging.
Which is why to me he will always remain “Deep Throat Driscoll”.
You referring to The Pious Piper bragging how they broke someone’s neck in FLAG football?
(During our summer of 1978 at the Cal Poly Pomona dorms, my dorm roomie Jim took a head shot from someone’s elbow at a pickup softball game (bad collision at first base) that put him in the hospital for a couple days. Cracked a couple of his cheekbones, not his skull or neck. Still wasn’t all that funny.)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
I reiterate:
Fantasy Football = NFL Team Manager, the Fantasy Role-Playing Game.
How come THAT particular FRPG is Godly while D&D is SAY-TANN-ANIC?
I don’t recall D&Ders ever sending death threats to RL people, something Fantasy Footballers have been known to do when an NFL player’s RL loss tanks their Fantasy Team scores.
In which case he isn’t even a Pedophile (going after PRE-puberty children) but an Ehebephile (going after post-puberty but legally-underage “Jail Bait”). Wanna bet all the Christians care about is that he’s not going after boys (which would be HOMOSEXUAL(TM))?