SBC Statement on (Not in Your Lifetime) Female Pastors

“It’s a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don’t keep your feet, there’s no knowing where you might be swept off to.” JRR Tolkien.


On our travels, we have discovered a great town north of Clearwater called Dunedin. Have you heard of it?


Rick Warren of Saddleback Church, an SBC member, ordained three women pastors and caused quite a hoopla at the SBC convention this year. He knew a movement was afoot to “punish” Saddleback for ordaining women. This movement gained more support than the movement to punish certain churches for their roles in dealing with the molestation of women. I wonder how our Lord sees this.

A “statement” needed to be made by the SBC leadership, and so it was. Said statement was introduced in a tweet by Al Mohler, where all well thought out statements are released. According to the Christian Post:

The Confession Revision Committee assigned the three men to write a study guide for the new 2000 Baptist Faith & Message Confession.

Al Mohler is President of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Chuck Kelley is President of New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. And then there is Richard Land, President Emeritus of Southern Evangelical Seminary, who served as the head o the SBC’s Ethics and Liberty Commission. He almost lost his job after having to step down from his radio gig for making some unseemly remarks about the Trayvon Martin shooting.

“We reprimand Dr. Land for his hurtful, irresponsible, insensitive, and racially charged words on March 31, 2012 regarding the Trayvon Martin tragedy. It was appropriate for Dr. Land to issue the apology he made on May 9, 2012 and we are pleased he did so. We also convey our own deepest sympathies to the family of Trayvon Martin for the loss they have suffered. We, too, express our sorrow, regret, and apologies to them for Dr. Land’s remarks. We are particularly disappointed in Dr. Land’s words because they do not accurately reflect the body of his work over a long career at the ERLC toward racial reconciliation in the Southern Baptist Convention and American life. We must now redouble our efforts to regain lost ground, to heal re-opened wounds, and to realize the dream of a Southern Baptist Convention that is just as diverse as the population of our great Nation.

“We further reprimand Dr. Land for quoting material without giving attribution on the Richard Land Live! (RLL) radio show, thereby unwisely accepting practices that occur in the radio industry, and we acknowledge that instances of plagiarism occurred because of his carelessness and poor judgment.”

It’s funny how quickly some things seem to go by the wayside in the SBC.

The Christian Post wrote SBC theologians clarify the meaning of ‘pastor’ amid dispute over female ordination.

In keeping with the spirit of Baptist Faith and Message 2000, “pastor” means “one who fulfills the pastoral office and carries out the pastor’s functions.”

…The function of the office and the office itself are inseparable, the three Baptist leaders maintained. They highlighted that the commentary they wrote on the 2000 Baptist Faith & Message notes that central to that pastoral role is “the responsibility to preach and teach.”

“[I]t is important to understand that the word pastor was chosen precisely because of its clarity among Southern Baptists. The statement carefully affirms that both men and women are gifted for service in the church, but the role of pastor is biblically defined and is to be held only by men as qualified by Scripture,” they reiterated in the new statement.

…Unlike other denominations with a hierarchical ecclesiastical structure, in Baptist ecclesiology, the local church calls and ordains its pastors, not the denomination as a whole or its affiliated entities.

Back to Rick Warren, whose actions were turfed to the Credentials committee, which dragged their feet in the molestation scandals.

In remarks from the floor of the annual meeting in June, Warren, the outgoing pastor of the Southern California megachurch, appealed to the denomination to stop fighting over the issue and that the subject is not a first-order doctrine.

Discussion of the issue, the theology surrounding it and whether to disaffiliate Saddleback Church from the SBC was ultimately tabled to a later date. It was sent to the convention’s credentials committee for further study.

So, what do you think will happen?

  • Saddleback is influential and brings in the dough, so they will continue to table it and study it.
  • The women issue is particularly tricky in the current political climate. So, they might keep tabling it for several years.
  • They decide to stand on “principle” and enforce the Baptist Faith and Message 2000.

For another amusing yet informative view on this, read SBC Voices William Thornton’s Interview with a pirate about the SBC and women pastors. I learned a few things.

W: “Hold the ‘but’ Blackbeard. I want to be sure I’m hearing you right. There are almost 50,000 SBC churches and among these there are  ZERO senior pastors?”

P: “Right, but if you will stop interrupting me, I was going to say that there are some women who are pastors.”

W: “You mean staff people, like associate pastors, or music ministers, or youth director?”

P: “Yes, and some of these are called ‘pastor’ just like the senior pastor.”

W: “OK. They don’t lead the church. They aren’t the main pastor. But their title includes the word ‘pastor”?

P: “Yes. It’s an outrage.”

W: “Why?”

P: “Because our confession, The Baptist Faith and Message” says pastors are to be men”?

W: “It doesn’t say that. It says “the office of pastor is limited to men.”

P: “Same thing.”

W. “Not exactly. Maybe you can spot the difference. But never mind. How many women have the title ‘pastor’ among the SBC’s 50k churches?”

P: “I don’t know. At least three.”

W: “Three? Among 50 thousand churches and maybe 150,000 staff people? And this is a problem?”

P: “It’s a big problem.”

P: “All we need is one or two, besides there are some women who have been ordained in the SBC.”

W: “Really? How many times is ordination mentioned in the BFM?”

P: “I don’t know.”

W: “I checked. The answer is ZERO. Not mentioned at all. Make a note of that.”

This post garnered 150 comments which is pretty incredible at that website. According to one comment:

this thread now stands at 133+ comments, whereas Rachel Denhollander’s guest column regarding the SATF Report in May, 2022 plateaued at 6 comments

Go figure.

Do you think there will be senior women pastors in the SBC in 100 years?

Comments

SBC Statement on (Not in Your Lifetime) Female Pastors — 132 Comments

  1. The SBC leaders put at the top of the priorities-keeping women in the SBC from pastoring. All else is considered secondary. Why do women in the SBC not see they are treated as less than men? I left the SBC in 2018 and have not missed it at all-I should have left decades earlier.

  2. Anyway: I got one. It was, according to one view, Jesus himself who gave some to be shepherds/pastors and teachers (along with all the cool stuff, like apostles and prophets). We’re just off for a family stroll to the nearby flock of coos, so I don’t have time to say more than: I bet there are already women pastors in the SBC, and always have been. It’s just that they’re stones rejected by the builders.

  3. The fly in the ointment is Saddleback. Mohler and Co. totally believe in and support complementarianism because it keeps men “in control” of women and is justification for that control. On the other hand Lifeway brings in MILLIONS from Rick Warren’s “stuff.”
    https://www.lifeway.com/en/contributors/r/rick-warren

    Why isn’t Saddleback already gone? Remember the words of “Deep Throat” during Watergate: “Follow the money.” Saddleback will lay dormant because going after their ordained women will cost the SBC publishing arm a ton of bucks.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QodGxD19_as

  4. “On our travels, we have discovered a great town north of Clearwater called Dunedin. Have you heard of it?”

    No. (Well, now we have.) But we all know of Clearwater.

    “What percent of Clearwater is owned by Scientology?
    The church owns a 10-square-mile chunk of the city, with nearly 70 buildings worth some $500 million, and approximately 8 percent of Clearwater’s population (just under 110,000 people) is said to be made up of Scientologists.”

    “Why is Dunedin Florida so popular?
    Dunedin, located along the Gulf Coast just west of Tampa, is known for its annual Scottish celebrations and its quaint downtown, among its other allures.”

  5. Saddleback is old news, doubt many folks pay that much attention to it any more.

    And women will continue to fill all the offices the Holy Spirit calls them to fill. Whether in SBC or out of it.

    But this is not about the church, really. It is about the money. Who can draw a paycheck. One reason I believe in an all volunteer army known as the church. If men are not drawing a paycheck, they will be right happy to share the work. Or even let the women do it all.

    Easy enough to fix. If we all sit on our wallets in church at offering time, the charlatans will leave very quickly.

  6. This is the same thing that is going on in the EFree denomination.

    On paper, they say the Bible teaches that women are not to be pastors. In practice, although everyone is said to agree with what is on paper, many really don’t believe that. A few others push the envelope.

    I suspect that in the end they want the big tent rather than sticking with their doctrinal statement.

    The reaction to Warren is a precursor to what we’ll see in the future.

    They will focus on mission above doctrine.

    It will come suddenly, I predict.

  7. Ava Aaronson: “What percent of Clearwater is owned by Scientology?
    The church owns a 10-square-mile chunk of the city, with nearly 70 buildings worth some $500 million, and approximately 8 percent of Clearwater’s population (just under 110,000 people) is said to be made up of Scientologists.”

    Sounds like Bethel in Redding.

  8. Tom Parker: The SBC leaders put at the top of the priorities-keeping women in the SBC from pastoring.

    i.e. “NO GURLZ ALLOWED!”

  9. Only half tongue in cheek, perhaps SBC churches that perceive “pastoral” gifts among their female volunteers and paid staff could simply allow them to function in that way without formal recognition, but after they age out and step back from active ministry could “ordain” them to the “office” of “pastor emeritus”.

    This is offered half in jest, but only half.

  10. Is that photo of the woman crouching by a field supposed to be the woman pastor? Is it supposed to be symbolic of oppression of women the SBC? Why do women in “random photo of a woman” always have their mouths open? Is it supposed to show sexually-exploitable vulnerability?

    If I were the woman pastor – or just a random mom – I’d suggest the young lady get up and put on sunscreen, a hat, and some sturdy camp clothes. She’s going to get chiggers and sunburned hiking through the hay in a sundress.

  11. At the E Free church I attend, women who lead children’s and women’s ministries are titled “Director” or “Coordinator,” although seeing the amount of counseling and caring that they provide, they should be called “Pastor.” Funny thing, all the men, with one or two exceptions who are doing even a minimal amount of ministry, are titled Pastor. It has bugged me for years. And when I peruse other conservative churches and their web sites, I see the same thing. Sigh. SBC isn’t the only one with this mindset.

  12. I’ve told this story on WW before but it bears repeating. My sister-in-law served as the unpaid volunteer music minister of her SBC church for three years. The previous MM had left and the church decided not to hire a replacement until their financial situation improved. After three years they decided they were stable enough hire a new MM, so she applied for the job she had been doing for free for three years. And they refused to hire her because she’s a woman, which apparently they had not noticed in the three years she worked for them for free.
    I left the SCB and am now an Episcopalian. My pastor is a woman and a good pastor, too. The church is thriving under her leadership. I will never again attend a church where I am a second-class citizen.

  13. Samuel Conner,

    I can see the possible metaphor, but she’s not dressed for farming. To me, the message is, “Women are ornamental, impractical, conformist (the tattoo), weak, fearful (the crouch), and not very bright (the open mouth).” It’s as if the picture was chosen by John Piper.

  14. Christine,

    I left a fiercely patriarchal church and now attend one with a woman pastor and I feel so much grace flowing from her words, actions and sermons

  15. Old Timer: At the E Free church I attend, women who lead children’s and women’s ministries are titled “Director” or “Coordinator,” although seeing the amount of counseling and caring that they provide, they should be called “Pastor.” Funny thing, all the men, with one or two exceptions who are doing even a minimal amount of ministry, are titled Pastor. It has bugged me for years. And when I peruse other conservative churches and their web sites, I see the same thing. Sigh. SBC isn’t the only one with this mindset.

    That is because they can pretend that they don’t have women in pastoral roles if they refuse to call them pastors. It’s called verbal gymnastics.

    I once got into an entire debate with someone on the dishonesty of doing “not yoga.” She was all concerned that it might be unchristian to practice yoga because it might appear that she was taking part in a non-Christian religious practice. I think Christians can do Yoga, and if you choose to pray and/or meditate during your Yoga practice, I don’t see a problem with that. Its yoga. Stop twisting yourself into intellectual pretzels to supposedly have a better witness by refusing to do yoga, while you do yoga. Nobody is fooled.

    Ultimately, certain forms (not all, practice varies widely) of “Christian Courtship” are just opportunities to explain how to date while denying that one is dating. I personally had to engage in a relationship if this kind before I figured out I was lying to myself and the rest of the world. I exclusively dated a man for an entire year. We both claimed we were just friends, because we weren’t ready to pursue marriage. But we talked about marriage regularly and had agreed that if either of us decided that we couldn’t potentially marry the other, then we would stop seeing each other. But we weren’t dating. Apparently. Hind sight is 20/20. Ultimately, our refusal to call a spade a spade
    because “Christian” resulted in a rather unclear ending to that relationship. How does one break up with someone you are not dating?

    Matt 5:37 says to “let your yes be yes and your no be no.” Now I see that it continues on to say that anything else is of the evil one. I’ve never noticed that before… I just know that I think this Bible Verse is specifically discouraging playing games with word definitions. Stop making it so complicated and call things what they are. Do not make things complicated that are not complicated.

    Just so it is clear, I have no theological or any other issue with women serving in pastoral roles. None. My current church has a female lead pastor.

  16. ES: I once got into an entire debate with someone on the dishonesty of doing “not yoga.”

    I should clarify: She wanted to practice the stretching part of yoga, but wanted the whole world to know that she wasn’t practicing the religious aspects of it. So she was trying to find a word to use to describe doing Yoga, but not really Yoga. I told her to just do Yoga, and cut the nonsense out of thinking you are witnessing to someone when you tell them you are going to do Yoga, but not really. All they do is roll their eyes at you.

  17. ES,

    Isn’t it funny how downright Orwellian fundagelical christianity can be?
    I walked away from it many years ago and haven’t looked back.

  18. Christine: apparently they had not noticed in the three years she worked for them for free.

    “I spent 2 decades in the White Christian world being exploited for my gifts & skills all while being told I wasn’t good enough. I was/am good enough to be exploited, but not good enough to be affirmed as someone who can stand on his own w/ his abilities.”
    @KyleJamesHoward

  19. Ava Aaronson,

    My experience with churches in general is because music is “pretty,” they highly undervalue the amount of work it takes to make it “pretty.” My current church is going round on this one. They can’t keep a music director because they refuse to acknowledge that what they want is a full time music director. So they hire part time, and then fail to provide adequate compensation for what they expect. They also fail to modify their expectations to what they are actually paying for.

    At a previous church, I got into an argument with someone over how he did not feel it was biblical to pay church musicians. The man was clueless about how much time it takes to pull off the level of musicality that the church expected. The concept of a worker being worthy his wages eluded him if music was involved. He thought it should be volunteer work. Honestly, if he wanted a more Quaker approach to services where even the role of pastor is essentially rotated through the congregation, I would get it – that is a consistent theological stance. But he had no issue paying a pastor, assistant pastor, youth pastor, and children’s pastor. He just felt that “music” should be a gift to the church. At least he didn’t seem to think the gender of the musician had anything to do with whether or not they should be paid.

  20. *** This post garnered 150 comments which is pretty incredible at that website. According to one comment:

    this thread now stands at 133+ comments, whereas Rachel Denhollander’s guest column regarding the SATF Report in May, 2022 plateaued at 6 comments ***

    Uh huh. Speaks volumes and shows what really matters to our SBC members who do not have to “graciously submit”, doesn’t it?

    No big deal if women are used and abused, but give a woman an opportunity to speak before a congregation, and all of the rats come out and start clawing and gnawing away.

  21. Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    I don’t think that most people in the conservative church really believe that abuse is possible in the church. They would have to change their world view if it did.

    That is why so many of us who have had to face abuse within the church, end up with radically shifted world views. You cannot continue to believe that you are better than other people, and everyone in your community is too, when you believe that your community is vulnerable to egregious abuse.

  22. ES,

    I’m working my way through Alexander Strauch’s “Biblical Eldership” (Three evangelical pastors have recommended it to me, so I wanted to read it to get inside their minds). In it, Strauch lays out all the functions of a pastor that are mentioned in Scripture – the list is exhaustive: guarding against false teaching, managing the church, preaching, teaching, counseling, etc, etc…. IMO, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for church leadership to be qualified and competent in ALL these areas if they didn’t allow competent and qualified women to share the burden. Reading Strauch’s book makes me ask, “Is it more important that a church provides competent and qualified ministry to its people, or that it does so only through men with the official title of pastor even if these men are not as competent and qualified as their female counterparts?”

  23. Paul K: Alexander Strauch’s

    “Men and Women: Equal Yet Different”
    ” It addresses one of the most significant changes that has occurred in human history: the gender revolution. Like the rest of society, Christianity has been permanently affected by this change. In reality, the gender transformation taking place within the world wide Christian community is a radical departure from biblical, apostolic Christianity. Men and Women: Equal Yet Different presents the complementarian perspective that men and women are equal yet different, and introduces the key terms, arguments, Scripture passages and research related to this position.”

  24. ES: he had no issue paying a pastor, assistant pastor, youth pastor, and children’s pastor. He just felt that “music” should be a gift to the church.

    A woman who worked at Willow Creek is nationally known and published for her expertise. We met her at our church.

    At a ladies luncheon, she shared with us at our table that she left Willow Creek because:
    1. Despite Hybels talk of affirming women, the atmosphere was disrespectful of women. Women’s voices were neither heard nor respected. (How Hybels went after certain women evidences the same.)
    2. There were pay discrepancies with men & women in the same positions.
    3. A male colleague had her do the work, then used her work and took credit.

  25. Muff Potter: Orwellian fundagelical christianity

    The playbook of christofascists was researched then described by Dr. Ruth Ben-Ghiat as written in her book, “Strongmen”.

    A history professor at NYU, Ben-Ghiat wanted to know why free democracies pivoted to authoritarian autocracies during WW2. These leaders share a playbook of strategies to move a society from democratic freedoms to authoritarian autocratic leadership. It happens. Neo-Calvinism, for example.

    From Galatians: “Stand fast therefore in your liberty, wherefore Christ has set us free, and do not be entangled again in a yoke of bondage.”

  26. Old Timer,

    “women who lead children’s and women’s ministries are titled “Director” or “Coordinator,” although seeing the amount of counseling and caring that they provide, they should be called “Pastor.” Funny thing, all the men, with one or two exceptions who are doing even a minimal amount of ministry, are titled Pastor.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    totally, totally stupid.

    i truly marvel at how stupid my religion and the men who run it are.

    (which is no reflection on my feelings toward God or Jesus or any men here or men in general)

    christianity is simply what people make of it.

  27. Paul K,

    my silly religion: an incompetent man, nay, a corrupt man, an immoral man, a dangerous man, a man who is a criminal, is always the right, biblical, and godly choice over a highly competent woman of stellar integrity.

  28. Paul K: “Is it more important that a church provides competent and qualified ministry to its people, or that it does so only through men with the official title of pastor even if these men are not as competent and qualified as their female counterparts?”

    I think a better conversation to have is: Does the Bible actually prohibit women in leadership? Because if the Bible doesn’t actually prohibit that, then a modern church prohibition is extra biblical. If it does, then we need to discuss why and if those reasons still apply. There are several things practiced by the New Testament Church that many sectors of Christianity do not practice, while others do. Speaking in Tongues is a good example.

    I was taught that male headship is taught in both the Old and the New Testament and is set in place at the fall. I was taught that all examples of female headship in the Bible were a direct result of the males of the time being incompetent to lead and it was a sign of God’s judgment on his people. I was told that the Bible said that Deborah was a Judge only because the men of the time were unwilling, and the Bible said that explicitly. When I actually sat down to read Judges for myself, I discovered that not only does Judges not say anything of the sort about Deborah. Instead I discovered that the language surrounding Deborah is parallel to the language describing the male Judges immediately before and after her. Turns out, the idea that women in leadership is a sign of judgement on a people comes from https://biblehub.com/kjv/isaiah/3-12.htm It also turns out that the Hebrew has a perfectly legitimate alternative translation: https://godswordtowomen.wordpress.com/tag/isaiah-312/ https://margmowczko.com/isaiah-3_12-women-leaders/ Even if Isaiah 3:12 really is a warning, how many generations did it take God to get around to telling Israel that Deborah was an extra special kind of Judgement rather than a Judge?

    Even if we go back to the fall, I’m not convinced that God is telling Eve that women’s dependence on man is the way God wants it to be, or if God is simply saying “because sin has entered the world, you will be vulnerable and dependent on man, and man isn’t going to be nice about it.” In other words, its a consequence that Christ’s coming came to obliterate, not an ideal to attain.

    My point is, in our accepted canon, there is no consistency between the Old and New Testament in insisting that women in charge is “bad.” Our scholars have had to really stretch to explain away the likes of Deborah.

    So does the NT actually say that? It would seem to be true based on some passages. But then we have to explain away the likes of Priscilla and Anna (and possibly Junia if you believe that Junia is a woman and not a man). We have to explain away the verses that talk about men and women prophesying. Whenever we get into the discussion of women teaching in church, no matter what side you take, you have to explain the verses that don’t agree. So we redefine the word “Prophesy” to be “reading scripture but not teaching about scripture.” But if we look at Prophets in the Bible, they predicted stuff, they also announced God’s judgement, they called people to account for sin, they re-interpreted ancient texts for application in their modern day (ie, they spend a lot of time saying: “you know that thing in scripture, this is what that meant). That is all stuff preachers do. When a preacher calls your i-phone an idol, he is prophesying. They just renamed it expostulating – which in some ways mutes their responsibility for what comes out of their mouth.

    To me, the most revealing thing was when I realized that prior to the mass education of women, theologians simply claimed that women were dumber than men and incapable of learning advanced theology. It was only when it became uncomfortably obvious that women were educatable and not inherently “dumber” that we started to see theologians come up with this “equal but different” theology. Prior to that, they just blatantly said that it should be obvious that the vast majority of women were too dumb to educate. The Puritans and Reformers (Luther included) didn’t talk about men’s and women’s “roles”. They did not pretend that women were “equal”. They talked about all the ways that men were superior to women. THOSE MEN TRANSLATED OUR BIBLE! And they infused their world view into the translations and the theology. If you don’t agree with the “men are superior to women, therefore God put men in charge” line, then you do need to question when that enters theology. And if you have to find a new and improved reason that God put Men in charge, then that reason isn’t historical, its new. Not only that, it is perfectly reasonable to question the motives of the translators. The Bible commands that we test what is taught to see if it is true.

  29. Ava Aaronson: Despite Hybels talk of affirming women, the atmosphere was disrespectful of women. Women’s voices were neither heard nor respected. (How Hybels went after certain women evidences the same.)

    As a woman, my personal experience is that if a guy toots a horn about how respectful he is of women he will be condescending.

    Men who actually respect women don’t talk about it, they demonstrate it. Part of the reason they don’t talk about it is because they are not obsessed with figuring out how to do it, or explaining how to respect women, they understand that the essence of respect is: Doing unto Others as you would have them do unto you. They also know that respecting women is not different than respecting men. If you are differentiating your respect technique, it’s not respect.

  30. elastigirl: silly religion

    It’s a formula. Complementarian, no less.
    A Whatever Man with a Subservient Woman.
    Because god. The god of manhood, which is the natural outcome of our pastor centric churches. These are institutions operating under the top-down hierarchy of one man at the top. Never a good model.

    Is replacing the guy at the top with a woman the answer? IMHO, no. A lateral hub of all 18 gifts of the Holy Spirit working together is the answer. Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4, under one guy – Jesus the son of God.

    I suppose because Jesus presents as one man, it’s tempting to put one human man on Earth in his place. Big mistake.

    Then we have a king, and they truly live like kings taxing their listener followers to the hilt for private planes (see Dee’s tweet of pastors with planes today), luxe mansions, yachts of the Hybels kind, etc. It’s your/our money, folks, when we go after a king. Jesus’ disciples were not kings, and there never arose one particular leader among them, although some claim Peter was the guy and the outcome was a succession of popes.

    “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me.” Jesus. Better to have the way, truth, and the life with the Father than the glitz of a shiny seat on a private plane with a pastor. IMHO.

  31. ES: If you are differentiating your respect technique, it’s not respect.

    Good observation. It appears that with Hybels, his pickup line was, “I respect women, so come work for me.”

  32. Paul K,

    Paul K: “Is it more important that a church provides competent and qualified ministry to its people, or that it does so only through men with the official title of pastor even if these men are not as competent and qualified as their female counterparts?”

    I’ve got a really long response in moderation, must have said a magic word. Suffice it to say, when we find contradictions in the Bible, if we really believe there aren’t supposed to be any, then we need to start questioning if what we have always believed is actually true. “Does the Bible actually say that?” is a really important question to ask. I grew up being taught that adding or subtracting from the Bible is a grievous sin. Then I started checking proof verses and the context of those verses as espoused by people who claim that adding to the Bible is a sin, I was quite concerned at how often I did not agree that their proof texts said what they claimed, or found extensive additions to the actual Biblical narrative.

    I’m also leery of anyone who ascribes motive to individuals in the Bible where the Bible does not. The Bible often tells us why somebody did something. If the Bible is silent, then it is adding to the Bible if you add a motive in.

  33. Wild Honey,

    Very interesting.

    There’s only one reference in the entire Bible where “pastor” shows up, in the NASB, Ephesians 4.11: “And He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as [a]pastors and teachers,”

    “[a] or shepherds.”

    Of the three lists of HS gifts to the church, pastor only shows up on this one list, whereas prophet is on all three. Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4.

    I don’t know Greek, so not sure of the actual word. There are lots of references to shepherds in the Bible. But “pastor” is not the same word, obviously. Is Jesus the NT Shepherd that replaced all the false shepherds in the OT, once and for all? What really is a pastor in light of all of the other 17 gifts?

    In any case, “pastor” has morphed into a conglomeration of spiritual gifts and other roles and entitlements that in essence, make a pastor king of the hill in a lot of churches.

    The fact that seminaries and theologians, including some that show up at eChurch, don’t unpack this make them lazy, weak, blind, or useless, IMHO. This is why even at this blog, we constantly see pastors’ corruption.

    (Too bad the blog badboy superstars and the eChurch preacher theostars don’t seem to communicate – which is exactly how this plays out in churches. [This is in no way a criticism of Dee’s work. She is putting forward what is out there. IMHO, this is something for the rest of us to observe and look for solutions.])

    Something is gravely wrong with how pastors interpret their role, and the experts churning out book after book, advising the pew, are of no help at all. Blind refs galore. Why buy their books and listen to them? They have nothing important to say regarding what is actually happening in churches, albeit under the radar until the blogsisters pull away the curtain they hide behind.

    Unpack “pastor”. That would be interesting and of value to all of these churches and church participants struggling with rogue pastors, Neo-cal and all other variations. Pastors Gone Wild. At a church near you. Reality. Not a show.

  34. Ava Aaronson: A lateral hub of all 18 gifts of the Holy Spirit working together is the answer. Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4, under one guy – Jesus the son of God.

    I once read a Christian dating manual that said men should look for women who displayed the Fruits of the Spirit. That same book did not bring the fruits of the spirit up when telling women what to look for, instead it talked about finding a man who was a strong leader.

  35. Ava Aaronson: Men and Women: Equal Yet Different”

    Sounds similar to “Ontologically the same, but functionally different.” So, if a church is denominationally “egalitarian” but “functionally” complementarian/patriarchal, that is something to seriously consider before investing in that environment.

  36. Ava Aaronson: There’s only one reference in the entire Bible where “pastor” shows up, in the NASB, Ephesians 4.11: “And He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as [a]pastors and teachers,”

    “[a] or shepherds.”

    I think that whether pastors or shepherds is the choice of the translator. The original Greek means shepherds. The English word pastor derives from Latin pāstor also meaning shepherd.

  37. Ava Aaronson,

    “Unpack “pastor”.”
    ++++++++++++

    well, let’s see heeere,….

    -facilitates a group run by skilled others

    -does this in such a way that others shine (like any good manager)

    -makes sure to start and end on time

    -the welfare of others at least vies for the top priority

    -stays until the lights are turned out

  38. ES: I once read a Christian dating manual that said men should look for women who displayed the Fruits of the Spirit. That same book did not bring the fruits of the spirit up when telling women what to look for, instead it talked about finding a man who was a strong leader.

    Because those fruits of the spirit the woman has are expected to be used to glorify and benefit the man.

    And, from what I’ve experienced, that’s pretty much how it goes in conservative pat/comp churches.
    Most women don’t even realize it, but their presence in a church doesn’t really to glorify and serve God. It glorifies and serves the men. That is why it is unforgivable for a woman to pastor a church. ……..JMO.

  39. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Most women don’t even realize it, but their presence in a church doesn’t really to glorify and serve God. It glorifies and serves the men. That is why it is unforgivable for a woman to pastor a church. ……..JMO

    Been there. Seen this. You have the words to say it. Well said.

  40. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Because those fruits of the spirit the woman has are expected to be used to glorify and benefit the man.

    I had not thought of that. But it sure makes sense given my experience.

  41. Erp,

    While we’re on the subject of translations, this is totally my very literal, 21st century brain speaking here… but I struggle with the image of Jesus as a shepherd. After all, the shepherd eats the sheep. Or, at the very least, fleeces them.

    When I get around to doing the WHV (Wild Honey Version) translation, I think I’m going to substitute “wildlife rehabilitation specialist” for “shepherd.”

  42. Wild Honey,

    Wow. You are good at this.

    No wonder the seminary and theology “experts” don’t address any of these church events, issues, corruptions and controversies.

    Some have even chased women out of their Higher Ed institutions, from what I understand. Truth in marketing would require removal of the “Higher”, in these cases.

    Furthermore, it’s in the news that seminaries are now enrolling convicted sex offenders, pedophiles.

  43. elastigirl: my silly religion: an incompetent man, nay, a corrupt man, an immoral man, a dangerous man, a man who is a criminal, is always the right, biblical, and godly choice over a highly competent woman of stellar integrity.

    It defies all reason and standards of organizational prudence doesn’t it?

  44. Ava Aaronson,

    “Some have even chased women out of their Higher Ed institutions, from what I understand. …

    …seminaries are now enrolling convicted sex offenders, pedophiles.”
    ++++++++++

    the stark contrast in how you put this is breathtaking.

    what kind of human being champions their theories (women are equal in value, but not in role), yet makes this their practice (skilled & experienced women of integrity are prohibited/men who are sexual offenders are welcomed)?

    how many parts idiot and how many parts immoral?

  45. elastigirl,

    ποιμένας (poimenas) — 1 Occurrence Ephesians 4:11: “… and some [as] pastors and teachers…”

    Whereas ποιμήν (poimén) — a shepherd (literally or figuratively)

    Jesus is our Shepherd.

    The church has 18 gifts: Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4, and pastoring is one of the gifts. With the 5 gifts listed in Eph 4, maybe these 5 are considered offices? But still, the shepherd deal seems to be Jesus, solely. (Maybe a pastor does some type of shepherding or serves as a shepherd helper.)

    If a pastor considers himself a shepherd, does he establish himself as the middleman?

    From the Episcopalians:
    “The word “pastor” derives from the work of tending sheep: a pastor is one who cares for sheep. The term came into the Christian understanding of the ordained ministry because of the frequent references in Holy Scripture to God as a shepherd of the people of Israel and Jesus as the Good Shepherd. [so a pastor is a type of Jesus?] A priest is a pastor for his or her congregation in the sense that he or she cares for the people, protects them and directs them, and feeds them with spiritual food in the Holy Eucharist.” [all 4 tasks, one guy, a type of Jesus?]

    In John 21, Jesus tells Peter to “pasture the lambs”, “tend MY sheep”, and to “pasture the sheep”.

    Maybe Peter is the Shepherd’s helper or servant? since Jesus calls them “my sheep”, making Jesus himself to be the sole shepherd.

    A head coach may have waterboys or batboys serving the team, but there is only one head coach.

  46. elastigirl: how many parts idiot and how many parts immoral?

    100% both? Add to that tone-deaf.

    The Speaker of the US House of Representatives says when she started, there were only 23 women out of 435 total. Every Tuesday they met for dinner after hours, a group from her very own party. The women could never get in a word. If they did, none of the guys listened. Ever. Even one night when the men were talking about pregnancy and childbirth. LOL. Absolutely absurd.

    The only place I have personally experienced this type of ghosting in my lifetime has been at churches. Here at TWW, it’s evident what is behind that behavior on the part of the men running things. Theology.

    On her blog, Marg Mowczko has pastors and theologians write in often with their “sloppy, lazy theological arguments against women” [her words]. She meets them directly every time, with incredible knowledge of the Bible, linguistics, and history. She is a lighthouse in a dark medieval world of theological malpractice by “experts” running things.

  47. elastigirl: their practice (skilled & experienced women of integrity are prohibited/men who are sexual offenders are welcomed)

    You spelled it out as it is right there. Gender entitlement all the way with god on their side.

  48. Mohler real sketchy opposing the formation of a Convention study committee to provide clarity on the matter of “office of pastor” in the Baptist Faith and Message, then weeks later issuing a statement himself (with Kelley and Land) “clarifying what the BF&M means”.

    At the Annual Meeting:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ImXhQ8Hr6c

    5min15sec Linda Cooper of the Credentials Committee addressing the Convention: “the credentials committee recommends that the Southern Baptist Convention…form a study committee, the members of which shall be appointed by the President,…to provide clarity regarding the office of pastor as stated in the Baptist Faith and Message, Article 6 The Church, given the many different offices within Baptist churches which include pastor in the title”

    6min30sec Bill Ascol (brother of Tom Ascol) at floor mic: “Point of order!”, then hands off to Al Mohler.

    7min20sec Mohler says he was a member of the [Paige-Patterson-appointed] group that rewrote the Baptist Faith and Message in 2000, and opposes the proposal for a study committee to provide clarity on the meaning of “office of pastor” in the BFM2000: “If we eventually have to form a study committee over every word in our Confession of faith, then we’re doomed!”

  49. Chuck Kelley is no longer at the helm of the New Orleans seminary, he retired from the presidency several years ago, is now a professor there, with title ‘president emeritus’. Important thing is he is Paige Patterson’s brother-in-law (Dorothy’s brother).

  50. Wild Honey: While we’re on the subject of translations, this is totally my very literal, 21st century brain speaking here… but I struggle with the image of Jesus as a shepherd. After all, the shepherd eats the sheep. Or, at the very least, fleeces them.

    Sheep provided fleece, milk, meat, and hides; however, I suspect in Jesus’s time most of that would be going to the owner of the sheep who would not usually be a working shepherd. The shepherds goal was to keep the flock safe and increasing (new lambs) so as to please his employer (or owner). Of course that does lead to the image of what the flock’s owner is intending to do with the sheep. One should perhaps not delve too deeply into a metaphor.

    Btw one reason young male animals were the usual sacrifice is because the males were less valuable. The limiting factor in the number of lambs (or calves) you would get next year was the number of ewes (or cows) you had. You only needed to have a few males to sire the next generation.

  51. Jerome: 6min30sec Bill Ascol (brother of Tom Ascol) at floor mic: “Point of order!”, then hands off to Al Mohler.
    7min20sec Mohler says he was a member of the [Paige-Patterson-appointed] group that rewrote the Baptist Faith and Message in 2000, and opposes the proposal for a study committee to provide clarity on the meaning of “office of pastor” in the BFM2000: “If we eventually have to form a study committee over every word in our Confession of faith, then we’re doomed!”

    Jerome: Chuck Kelley is no longer at the helm of the New Orleans seminary, he retired from the presidency several years ago, is now a professor there, with title ‘president emeritus’. Important thing is he is Paige Patterson’s brother-in-law (Dorothy’s brother).

    So it was a setup. Looks like the ancient guuys are still playing games.

  52. This will be your occasional reminder that some seminaries are academically rigorous, and they also admit women, and they also do screening and counseling to limit the possibility of admitting and ordaining deeply flawed candidates.

  53. Ava Aaronson,

    Eckhard J Schnabel writes in Vol 1 of Early Christian Mission, p 513-514,

    “Women had responsible functions and duties. This clearly was the case with Priscilla in Corinth, Rome and Ephesus; the four daughters of Philip in Caesarea; Lydia, Euodia and Syntache in Philippi; Phoebe in Cenchreae; Maria, Tryphaena, Tryphosa and Persia in Rome; perhaps also in Rome the mother of Rufus, Julia the wife of Philologus, and the sister of Nereus.

    The role of women in the early Christian mission can hardly be explained without Jesus’ behaviour toward women, which was “strikingly novel for its time” (Weiser, 1983).
    He addressed his message……..and healing ministry to both men and women. His teaching on marriage and divorce placed the dignity of women on the same level as that of men. He had personal conversations with women. He allowed women to accompany him on his travels and to support him with their financial resources. It is therefore not surprising that Luke’s account in the book of Acts describes women as full members of the churches, a fact that is not simply presupposed but is stated specifically. In Jerusalem women are present when the disciples come together in the upper room. They receive the Holy Spirit together with the men. More and more women are converted, including widows. Later Paul is accompanied by the women and children of the church in Tyre when he goes down to the harbour. In Corinth and in other churches women participate in public prayers and prophecy. Paul and Peter specifically address women in their exhortations for the congregations.
    The following Christian women, most of them leading disciples and missionary workers are mentioned by name: in Jerusalem Mary the mother of Jesus, Mary the mother of John Mark, Sapphira; in Joppa, Tabitha; in Lystra, Eunice; in Corinth, Chloe; in Colossae, Apphia; in Laodikea, Nympha; in Thyatira, Jezebel; in Athens, Damaris.

    These women did not only pray and serve in charitable roles or as deaconesses, … they were active in the house churches and in missionary contexts.”

  54. Lowlandseer: These women did not only pray and serve in charitable roles or as deaconesses, … they were active in the house churches and in missionary contexts.”

    And now Biblical Manhood – “NO GURLZ ALLOWED!” – is a Litmus Test of Salvation.

    “The Man PENETRATES! COLONIZES! CONQUERS! PLANTS! The Woman lies back and accepts!”

  55. Erp: Of course that does lead to the image of what the flock’s owner is intending to do with the sheep.

    The same thing too many MenaGAWD intend to do with their sheep.

    “Mmmmmmm… Fresh Mutton!”

  56. Wild Honey: After all, the shepherd eats the sheep. Or, at the very least, fleeces them.

    And a lot of MenaGAWD are very Biblical in that respect.

    “And God will never make you free,
    For look who speaks for God –
    The shepherd fleeceth every sheep
    He guideth with his rod”
    — Leslie Fish, “No High Ground”

  57. ES: I once read a Christian dating manual that said men should look for women who displayed the Fruits of the Spirit.

    Been there.
    No way was I going to get Equally Yoked(TM) for life to a walking Jack Chick tract.

    I mean, can you imagine me stuck with a woman whose “what I’m like” was nothing other than 24/7 “Scripture, Witnessing, and Loving and Serving The LOOOORD”? So Spiritual(TM) there’s nothing else to her? There’s nothing there!

    That same book did not bring the fruits of the spirit up when telling women what to look for, instead it talked about finding a man who was a strong leader.

    i.e. “PENETRATE! COLONIZE! CONQUER! PLANT!”

    Or like the accompanying “What I’m Looking For” to the above “What I’m Like”:
    “A Mighty Man of GOD who’s into Loving and Serving The LOOOOORD, Scripture, Witnessing, Saving Souls, etc”.
    i.e. Another walking Jack Chick tract.
    After flushing about a grand down the Christian Dating Service toilet, I walked away and never looked back.

    What I’ve always wanted was COMPANIONSHIP. Cuddly Companionship.
    And just like outside the Bubble (where everything was about Orgasm), there could be NO Companionship there.

  58. Jerome: “If we eventually have to form a study committee over every word in our Confession of faith, then we’re doomed!”

    They didn’t ask for every word. They asked for one word. Nobody is asking for the definition of “is.” The real issue hear is that Al Mohler is objecting to the idea that his word was insufficient and needs to be expanded upon.

  59. Lowlandseer,

    Adolf Von Harnack makes similar points in his earlier works – The Mission and Expansion of Christianity in the First Three Centuries Vol 2
    “ No one who reads the New Testament attentively, as well as those writings which immediately succeeded it, can fail to notice that in the apostolic and sub-apostolic age women played an important rôle in the propaganda of Christianity and throughout the Christian communities. The equalising of man and woman before God (Gal. 3:28) produced a religious independence among women, which aided the Christian mission” and then quotes Clement of Alexandria – “ Our judgment is that the virtue of man and of woman is one and the same. For, if the God of both is one, the Instructor of both is also one: one church, one temperate self-control, one modesty, common food, marriage an equal yoke; breath, sight, hearing, knowledge, hope, obedience, love—all things are alike to them. Those whose life is common have also a common grace and a common salvation; their virtue and their training are alike””

  60. Headless Unicorn Guy: No way was I going to get Equally Yoked(TM) for life to a walking Jack Chick tract.

    I’d like to point out that there is nothing in: “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness or goodness” that in any way is exemplified in someone who is a walking chick track. Walking chick tracts tend to be completely tone deaf and offer memorized platitudes, which may or may not be situationally appropriate, instead of genuine love and concern.

    I’d also argue that someone who is cuddly, but not kind, or patient would ultimately be just as miserable a companion as the holier than thou type.

    My objection is that the author in question took a passage of the Bible that is very clearly meant for both men and women, and applied it only to women, thereby twisting scripture. Any leader, male or female, who is not loving, patient, kind, and good, is most likely a petty dictator.

  61. To answer your question, yes, I have heard of Dunedin! In fairness, the reason I have heard of Dunedin is because I grew up in St. Petersburg.

  62. ES: I’d also argue that someone who is cuddly, but not kind, or patient would ultimately be just as miserable a companion as the holier than thou type.

    There can be no Companionship there, either.

  63. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Because those fruits of the spirit the woman has are expected to be used to glorify and benefit the man.

    i.e. “Woman! What’s Yours Is Mine and What’s Mine Is MINE!”

  64. Jerome: 7min20sec Mohler says he was a member of the [Paige-Patterson-appointed] group that rewrote the Baptist Faith and Message in 2000, and opposes the proposal for a study committee to provide clarity on the meaning of “office of pastor” in the BFM2000: “If we eventually have to form a study committee over every word in our Confession of faith, then we’re doomed!”

    Interesting find, Jerome.

    On Marg Mowczko’s website, she posts very detailed research about women in the Bible. Men who oppose her discoveries write in to protest, with their “theologies” of traditionally accepted conclusions. They have no argument, no evidence, no standing in what the Bible actually presents about women.

    Marg’s conclusion? These commenters are stakeholders in lazy, self-promoting “theology” with the idea that if they just keep repeating the same old from their platforms consistently and loudly, they are right, they are official, and they get their way. Similar to a bully.

  65. Ava Aaronson: These commenters are stakeholders in lazy, self-promoting “theology” with the idea that if they just keep repeating the same old from their platforms consistently and loudly, they are right, they are official, and they get their way.

    “A Lie, repeated often enough, becomes The Truth.”
    — Reichsminister Josef Goebbels

  66. Samuel Conner,

    But that isn’t even fact. The Harvest is everywhere. It is not confined to a church building on Sunday morning. Women can share the gospel anywhere at anytime 🙂

  67. Headless Unicorn Guy: Goebbels

    The Goebbels playbook.

    Line up Ruth Ben-ghiat’s researched Strongman playbook of the road from a free democracy to an authoritarian autocracy, with the bait-and-switch road to Neo-calvinism.

    Where are the parallels? I’d like that book.

    However, would the theobros write it up? And would their Christian publishers market it?

  68. ES: Any leader, male or female, who is not loving, patient, kind, and good, is most likely a petty dictator.

    And a ‘Christian Theocracy’ like many fundagelicals want, would be as brutal a dictatorship as any the world has seen.

  69. Muff Potter,

    i just…..

    the ironies that this is Jesus’ namesake thing are just…

    somebody paint me a portrait of Jesus with an ironic facial expression, please (if there’s not enough disgust coming through, i may ask that it be redone). my life is devoid of religious symbols, but that’s one for the wall.

  70. Muff Potter: And a ‘Christian Theocracy’ like many fundagelicals want, would be as brutal a dictatorship as any the world has seen.

    Historically, we have attempted them repeatedly. Calvin’s Geneva being one, Massachusetts kind of being another. It was miserable in both cases.

  71. Muff Potter: Good points all, and well written.
    I hadn’t considered those angles until now.

    So after writing all of that, I decided to do a little digging and found, that I may have over-simplified the Reformer’s views on women.

    1. The entire theology of women that I described being taught is Augustinian and was for the most part accepted in its whole by the Reformers. That includes a belief that Eve was required to submit to her husband prior to the fall. That the reason women cannot preach is because Eve caused the fall, and Adam’s original sin was that he listened to his wife, with a focus on the listening rather than Adam’s disobedience to God.
    2. Calvin believed and preached that women are saved by Faith, childbearing, and breastfeeding. I get the faith and childbearing, but scripture does not say you must breast feed your own kids to be saved. I find it funny that I now know Calvin’s opinion on formula (he was all strung out about wet-nurses, but you get the idea).
    3. When Luther was single, he espoused the Augustinian view. After he got married, his views changed very dramatically. He told his seminary students that they should expect to be corrected by their wives and should heed them, and their wives may be wiser than them. BUT, women were supposed to be silent in churches for three reasons: Men are wiser than women, 1 Corinthians 14, and mens’ voices carry better.
    4. Zwingli was a ladies man who was not celibate when he was a Roman Catholic priest. He was also largely silent on the role of women in the church. I couldn’t find anything he said, and read several historians who noted they couldn’t either.
    5. John Knox was a terrible politician who decided that attacking female monarchs biblical legitimacy was a good idea when the only heirs to the throne alive at the time were women. He mixed that in with the concept of a constitutional monarchy and apparently recommending killing monarchs who didn’t agree. And he was totally dumb founded when none of his Queens liked him and at times denied him access to England and Scotland. He firmly believed that not only were women dumb, but they were capricious and emotionally stunted. He also didn’t see a problem with lying and spreading false rumors about Mary Queen of Scots if it suited his purposes. One of his historians pointed out that he actually really liked women, just as long as they agreed with him.

  72. I should add in:

    It appears that Luther described a doctrine of Equal but different. Equal heirs of Grace and all the things that come with Salvation. Contrary to how this doctrine is preached now, Luther’s emphasis was on getting husbands to treat their wives as their equal heirs, respecting their wives (my word, not his) and creating more egalitarian marriages.

    I haven’t found where or who, but apparently during the Reformation, whether or not women are humans, or partial humans, or sub-human may have been a topic of debate. I am really curious about this because that adds a whole new dimension to this discussion.

  73. ES: Calvin’s Geneva being one, Massachusetts kind of being another.

    Some folks believe that martyrdom would help Americans develop a better, healthier, deeper Christian faith. This idea recently popped up here on TWW.

    The people accused of witchcraft in Salem in 1692 were local Christians, mainly women, who were martyred.

    They were treated as criminals, and most were left permanently dead.

    Martyrdom consists of unjust violence toward innocent people.

    I would say that 1692 did improve Christianity in the Massachusetts Bay Colony. It made Christianity less fanatical and less powerful. Christians repented over what they had done to other Christians through their Christian government and mob behavior.

    The SBC would be wise to readmit women to the ordination process, and start treating them as whole and worthy people for the very first time, instead of finding more and more ways to belittle them.

  74. Friend: Some folks believe that martyrdom would help Americans develop a better, healthier, deeper Christian faith. This idea recently popped up here on TWW.

    Killing people because of false accusations is always an abomination to God. It does not increase people’s faith. It increases people’s distrust. It’s a good thing that the people of Massachusetts repented and grew from their sin. That doesn’t make their sin good and it doesn’t mean that we as a country should Romanticize martyrdom as a solution to the US’s faith issues.

    Besides, if we are really honest, and listen to those who have left the church or who perhaps never were in the church, what you find is that they are often the ones who have been abused and falsely accused, often by the church. The church may not be burning her victims at the stake at this moment, but I question who the real “martyrs” really are. I don’t think it is church leaders and or members who cannot identify abuse and therefore perpetuate it.

  75. ES: Killing people because of false accusations is always an abomination to God. It does not increase people’s faith. It increases people’s distrust.

    Especially when that Killing and those False Accusations were In The Name of GOD.

    Besides, if we are really honest, and listen to those who have left the church or who perhaps never were in the church, what you find is that they are often the ones who have been abused and falsely accused, often by the church.

    Good thing Seneca’s trolling Wondering Eagle instead of here.

    He would be quick (usually first in the thread) about how they REALLY left the church because they wanted to SIN SIN SIN and the “abuse” was just an excuse. Usually ending with a smug “When You Stand Before God on Judgment Day, Will You Say “I Rejected Christ because Christians Abused Me”?”

    (Because after all It Can’t Be OUR Fault – “THEE, NOT MEEEE!”)

  76. Headless Unicorn Guy: “When You Stand Before God on Judgment Day, Will You Say “I Rejected Christ because Christians Abused Me”?”

    When my late brother stood before God, God already knew that those claiming Christ had abused him. My brother didn’t have to tell God. I know this because the Bible is very clear that God sees all things, knows all things, and loves those who are downtrodden, even when their vision and concept of God is falsely marred by the church or others. Nobody still on earth has a completely flawless understanding of God. The Bible is also very clear that our behavior is to be a witness to God’s Goodness. The corollary to that is that when we sin against others, and our sin cloud’s or contaminates other’s view of God, that is our responsibility. “Do not be a stumbling block” is not written to the stumbler.

    Back when I was good little Calvinist Presbyterian, I thought I understood God’s mercy. What I understood was man’s judgement. At this point, I am convinced that I will never on earth fully understand the depth and reach of God’s mercy and love. I have given up trying to parse out who God will have mercy on, and I trust, that God doesn’t hold trauma against survivors. I believe that God doesn’t hold anything we cannot actually control against us. I firmly believe that there is a certain subset of people who will get to heaven, and be surprised God let them in after lifetimes of being told they were hopeless, and God will say: “Welcome my child. I love you. Just because somebody said X about me, doesn’t make it true.”

    And those who are so focused on victim blaming will either be filled with remorse, and God’s forgiveness, or they will not be in God’s presence. Lets not forget, some of these people who are highly judgmental and preach false doctrines, they are victims of wolves in sheep’s clothing too. Some of these people are judgmental precisely because through their own broken humanity, that is the only way they have psychologically to cope with the sins and abuses perpetuated against them. And God sees that too. It does not make their behavior less sinful, it does not mean they shouldn’t be confronted and told the truth. But the Bible is really clear that Jesus came to die for all sins. Every single one of them.

  77. elastigirl: the ironies that this is Jesus’ namesake thing are just…

    So a leader sets up an org the way he wants and then names it after Jesus?

    It’s like the knock-offs we see in various markets while traveling. A shoe has three stripes and labeled as Addiduhs.

    When going to church the question is: “Is this the Body of Christ or a knock-off?” When in the discovery phase, it would be wise to not invest a lot of time or money since the org might be a knock-off. Similar in appearance but actually a cheap copy.

  78. Ava Aaronson,

    i’m looking broadly at the patchwork frankenstein of christian culture and church culture in general (the doctrines, theologies, methods, practices, values…).

    just doesn’t resemble Jesus of Nazareth. in many things it’s simply the opposite of what was important to Jesus based on what he said and did.

    i really think it should be called something else.

  79. elastigirl: i really think it should be called something else.

    A knock-off. Like in the sneaker world of Adidas and Nikes: Addiduhs and Nikkes. In certain marketplaces, it pays to carefully look at the product: the real deal or a knock-off.

    Bout time to properly label some of these churches as knock-offs. It happens.

  80. Ava Aaronson: Bout time to properly label some of these churches as knock-offs. It happens.

    Christians have long experience at doing third-and-fourth-rate knockoffs of just about everything.
    “Just like fill-in-the-blank, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
    To the point we used to say “It’s Gotta be Christian! Look how shoddy it is!”
    And “It’s gotta be good! All the Christians are denouncing it!”
    THAT is the reputation it’s gotten.

  81. ES: Back when I was good little Calvinist Presbyterian, I thought I understood God’s mercy.

    Whenever the name “Calvin” is involved, “God” and “Mercy” just do NOT go together. At all.

  82. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    I’d rather just call them bad churches or unhealthy churches, or maybe oppressive churches. It’s possible to explain why a church might be any of those things: they mishandled an abuse case, they don’t let women do anything but staff the nursery, they have a dress code, they decide how much a family has to give, the pastor lives in a 50-room house.

    When the talk of counterfeit comes up, it is sometimes accompanied by suggestions of supernatural deception. That approach can cause people to ignore their own minds, and just take someone else’s word that North Valley Church is true, but South Valley Church is counterfeit. That could scare people away from all churches.

    Regardless of the terms, we always need to give specific real-world reasons and encourage people to observe and analyze.

  83. ES: At this point, I am convinced that I will never on earth fully understand the depth and reach of God’s mercy and love. I have given up trying to parse out who God will have mercy on, and I trust, that God doesn’t hold trauma against survivors. I believe that God doesn’t hold anything we cannot actually control against us. I firmly believe that there is a certain subset of people who will get to heaven, and be surprised God let them in after lifetimes of being told they were hopeless, and God will say: “Welcome my child. I love you. Just because somebody said X about me, doesn’t make it true.”

    Amen.

  84. ES,

    Just a couple of points. Zwingli’s ‘Act or Custom of the Supper’ and ‘Form of Prayer’ (1525) have male and female responses in the body of the service although, following Calvin, “we must allow ourselves to be ruled and taught by men.” (Commentary on Galatians and Ephesians).

    In his Latin Works , Vol 3, Commentary on True and False Religion, Zwingli refers to secret marriages by priests -“ Hence some brethren among us, to avoid offence, and to quiet the pangs of conscience (for it was torture to be a fornicator), contracted marriage secretly, that the mind might not, being conscious of fornication and suffering from this wound, do everything more listlessly than it ought; and they concealed the fact until teaching on the subject of marriage could be seasonably put forth. When this had once been done, so that all saw plainly that there was no possible reason for hindering any one who wished from taking a wife, new husbands began everywhere to appear. ”

    As for John Knox, his views are consistent with Scripture and Calvin, who says this in a letter to Bullinger in April 1554. – “ Most willingly I looked over the answer which you gave to the Scotsman. He had talked over these matters with me before he came among you. As I had freely exposed to him in familiar conversation my opinion, he did not press the subject any further, and not even after his return, did he ask me to communicate to him my ideas in writing. The substance of what I expressed orally moreover tallied with what you had written. For respecting hereditary succession in monarchies, I had taken nearly the same view as yourself. On the second head—whether it is lawful for us to uphold the gospel by force of arms, there was not the least discrepancy between our ideas. About the government of women I expressed myself thus: Since it is utterly at variance with the legitimate order of nature, it ought to be counted among the judgments with which God visits us; and even in this matter his extraordinary grace is sometimes very conspicuous, because to reproach men for their sluggishness, he raises up women endowed not only with a manly but a heroic spirit, as in the case of Deborah we have an illustrious example. But though a government of this kind seems to me nothing else than a mere abuse, yet I gave it as my solemn opinion, that private persons have no right to do any thing but to deplore it. For a gynæcocracy or female rule badly organized is like a tyranny, and is to be tolerated till God sees fit to overthrow it.”

  85. Lowlandseer,

    Augustine expressed the same view as the Early Church Fathers regarding women. “ Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. ” (Clement ch 42, The Order of Ministers in the Church)

  86. Friend: When the talk of counterfeit comes up, it is sometimes accompanied by suggestions of supernatural deception.

    This is part of a general trend to Over-Spiritualize everything to the point of detachment from reality. CHristian Monist blogged extensively on the subject; it removes any Reality Check.

    And “suggestions of supernatural deception” is the gateway to Smelling out the Witches in a Demon-Haunted World.

  87. Lowlandseer,

    Thank you for the information on Zwingli, I could not find it.

    As for John Knox, first off, a “badly organized government” by either male or female rulers is bound to be miserable.

    Secondly, I was told my whole life that Deborah’s rule was an anomaly because a decent man could not be found. The book of Judges doesn’t say that. It says she was a Judge and a prophetess, and was leading Israel. It says she summoned Barak. She tells Barak that because he wants her to accompany him, he won’t get the full glory he would have otherwise. She is chastising his lack of belief, whether he is failing to believe her prophesy, whether he is questioning God, or questioning her authority as God’s prophet (ie his motive) is not included in the text. The fact that somebody else, specifically a woman, will get the glory is more a judgement on his lack of belief than a statement that “women in charge is bad.” It seems to be a common scenario in the Old Testament that when God told someone to do something, and they respond with a lack of faith, its pretty common for God to say “Fine, I’ll send additional help/someone else, but you will be embarrassed.” In this case, the great General didn’t get to slay his opponent, instead a Housewife, a non- Israelite who was just standing outside her tent, got the credit, and we are still reading about his lack of faith (ie questioning God’s revelation through his chosen prophet) and her bravery today. In Judges 5, she is referred to as “most blessed of women.” Judges does not say that women in charge is a judgement. That is something that Augustine and others have overlaid onto the text, because they need her story to be dismissible.

    Judges 4 and 5 is a portion of the Bible that conservatives spend a lot of time adding to and explaining away because ultimately, they don’t like the plain reading.

  88. ES: The church may not be burning her victims at the stake at this moment,

    They would if they could.

  89. ES: Judges 4 and 5 is a portion of the Bible that conservatives spend a lot of time adding to and explaining away because ultimately, they don’t like the plain reading.

    The irony is rich yes?
    How they harp endlessly upon the ‘plain reading’ elsewhere.

  90. Muff Potter: The irony is rich yes?
    How they harp endlessly upon the ‘plain reading’ elsewhere.

    The irony, and hypocrisy is extremely rich. What is also rich is how many people accuse me of being a sinful and rebellious woman when I point that out. If you can’t win an argument, resort to character assignation!

    I get really tired of hearing people harp on about how “rebellion” and “hard heartedness” is the only reason to modify your beliefs from theirs. It couldn’t possibly be reason and their hypocrisy exposed. Judges 4 and 5 was a water shed text for me. And it has been apparently causing consternation for generations. I just discovered today that a certain group of rabbi’s reduced Deborah’s role as prophet and judge to: temple candle maker in her free time… and now I cannot find that reference.

  91. ES: “rebellion” and “hard heartedness” is the only reason to modify your beliefs from theirs.

    Yes, these claims that America is in open rebellion against almighty God just make my eyes roll. Most people are just trying to cover the rent and put food on the table, as it has always been, everywhere on earth.

  92. Friend: Most people are just trying to cover the rent and put food on the table, as it has always been, everywhere on earth.

    That’s how divorced from reality those guys (hardcore professional fundagelicals) are.

  93. ES: God will say: “… Just because somebody said X about me, doesn’t make it true.”

    And, that, is the bottom-line of a lot of man’s theological perspectives over the centuries.

  94. Something I’ve never understood —

    A woman can share the Scripture and Christ’s offer of salvation from the pulpit if she sings it, but not if she says it.

  95. When the old guys (SBC) die off, and newer and younger blood man the rigging, yes there will be women in the pulpit.

  96. emr,

    “A woman can share the Scripture and Christ’s offer of salvation from the pulpit if she sings it, but not if she says it.”
    +++++++++++++++

    it’s the stupidest thing, isn’t it.

    and i thought my fruit loops were artificial.

    (taking all the naturally-occuring things out and replacing them with manufactured things that are more convenient to work with.)

  97. elastigirl: (taking all the naturally-occuring things out and replacing them with manufactured things that are more convenient to work with.)

    Isn’t it amazing what you (generic you) can manufacture from the Bible?

  98. emr: Something I’ve never understood —
    A woman can share the Scripture and Christ’s offer of salvation from the pulpit if she sings it, but not if she says it.

    You’ve been reading my mind.

  99. Muff Potter,

    “Isn’t it amazing what you (generic you) can manufacture from the Bible?”
    +++++++++++++

    goodness, it’s like the ultimate weapon in the hands of someone with the power to wield it.

    am i correctly remembering Jesus’ gist in the wisdom of avoiding the building of power structures in religion?

    does anyone read Jesus anymore?

  100. Muff Potter: When the old guys (SBC) die off, and newer and younger blood man the rigging, yes there will be women in the pulpit.

    I’m not so sure about that. The younger guys in SBC are all New Calvinists and they ain’t keen on the idea of their womenfolk preaching.

  101. Max: Nah, they are all chasing Paul and twisting what he wrote.

    Great idea for a book.
    I’d call it The Paul Chasers.
    What used to be a sane and reasonable nod to the Pauline Epistles, has now become an almost quasi-islamic obsession with them in both reformed and non-reformed circles.

  102. Muff Potter: Great idea for a book.
    I’d call it The Paul Chasers.

    I have no doubt that this crazy chapter in the American church will go down in church history as more Paul-focused than Jesus-focused.

  103. elastigirl: am i correctly remembering Jesus’ gist in the wisdom of avoiding the building of power structures in religion?

    does anyone read Jesus anymore?

    Max: Nah, they are all chasing Paul and twisting what he wrote

    Chase and twist and shout. Church imitators.

    (No worries, copyrighters, not doing a song here, just adapting the title.)

  104. Friend: A few places have moved right past Paul and just deliver large amounts of anger.

    That’s what happens when you leave Jesus behind.

  105. Ava Aaronson: Chase and twist and shout. Church imitators.

    “Hurry, hurry hurry, step right up to the greatest show on earth!” shouts the carnival barker.

  106. Friend:
    Max,

    A few places have moved right past Paul and just deliver large amounts of anger.

    There’s no Hate like Christian Love.

  107. Muff Potter: How they harp endlessly upon the ‘plain reading’ elsewhere.

    Never forget the Plain Reading of the Demon Locusts of Revelation:
    Helicopter Gunships with chemical-weapon “stingers” piloted by Long-Haired Bearded Hippies.

  108. Muff Potter: ES: The church may not be burning her victims at the stake at this moment,

    They would if they could.

    That’s what Taking Back America and Restoring a Truly CHRISTIAN Nation is for.
    Ever since the Sixties, Christians have been sharpening their Bibles waiting for the Night of Long Knives. Christ was supposed to come back and destroy the world some time in the 1980s; now they’re so tired of waiting they’re going to do it themselves.

  109. Headless Unicorn Guy: Christ was supposed to come back and destroy the world some time in the 1980s; now they’re so tired of waiting they’re going to do it themselves.

    I wish that wasn’t quite so accurate…

  110. Max: That’s what happens when you leave Jesus behind.

    Except as Celebrity Endorsement for What We Wanna Do Anyway.

  111. Friend:
    Max,

    A few places have moved right past Paul and just deliver large amounts of anger.

    A Nuremberg Rally also delivered/stimulated large amounts of anger.
    (And was described by outside observers as “A Revival Meeting”, fiery Preacher/Fuehrer sermon and all.)