The “response” of “the system” is sooo predictable…… sigh

“Unfortunately, these types of responses are what we always seem to see from church members. They rally round the man they idolize and don’t say a thing about the woman abused by the pastor.”

church with a little “c” … not ‘the’ Church which has no idols and loves/ministers to the suffering and brokenhearted – including those who are suffering and brokenhearted at the hands of church leaders. In ‘the’ Church, there are no celebrity pastors, no personality cults, no fallen pastors who are honored. In ‘the’ Church, victims are cared for … Dr. Hunt is not the victim.

Gus: Robert Morris

Yes, Morris has restored many who were on “Satan’s Hit List”

“Morton and Hunt both seem to have “restoration” of Hunt as their goal. What exactly that means I don’t know. Restoration of Hunt’s tarnished reputation?”

I suspect this is certainly a primary goal. You didn’t get any more reputable than Johnny Hunt in the SBC … he was the man! A giant, top of the SBC pyramid, wielded great influence … even had his own stained class image in Patterson’s chapel.

“The last will be first, and the first last.”

i reckon “restoration” and “restore” have kicked “winsome” and “irenic” off the top spots in bullsh|t bingo christian edition.
.
.
Does it really all come down to this?

“Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.” Galatians 6:1

a pastor completely disqualifies himself and poops all over “above reproach” on purpose, rendering it utterly meaningless.

oh no! job security and revenue streams are now in jeopardy for all the professional christians associated with said pastor!

but never fear! “biblical” saves the day!

thank God for Galatians 6:1! we’ll co-opt this “restore” concept to save all our @$$es, and as a convenient insurance policy for us professionals should we ‘misstep’.
.
.
well, i wish they’d all go the whole way and emasculate themselves. just being biblical here.

elastigirl,

🙂

My, my. Why do these people talk like this. Rhetoric has its place, but when you talk like this, you’re ducking ridiculous. I hate “sermon voice.” The only thing worse is their “prayer voice.”

John: I hate “sermon voice.”

You noticed that, too. The only thing worse than “sermon voice” is “preacher hair”.

elastigirl,

Just an observation. Restoring someone “gently” does not have to equate to restoring them “immediately.”

My kids are doing swim lessons right now. We’ve done group lessons in the past where kids pretty much get in the water right away and are encouraged to start doing deep water bobs.

My kids were having none of that.

So this year we bit the bullet for a private instructor. She is taking things so much more “gently” and gradually, and as a result is accomplishing more in two weeks than the group lessons did in two summers.

Restoring a sinful brother “immediately” might put them right back in the way of temptation (particularly if we’re talking about the temptations of abuse of power/authority). Restoring “gently” or “gradually” has the benefit of pausing or pulling back and finding the appropriate limit for what someone can handle until they build up the spiritual muscles.

And even after years of training, some people’s spiritual muscles will never be equal to others for certain temptations. I am not holding out hope that my kids will become Olympic swimmers just because their first few weeks of private lessons are going smoothly.

“My view is Hunt should never preach again. Sure, he can attend church again, but he should not be restored to any type of leadership role. I would love to hear your thoughts in the comment section.”

Thanks for this post, Dee, and for your invitation. (How many religious leaders that talk at podiums and publish books ask for our thoughts? Any, ever? Then offer the opportunity to put our thoughts in print beside them? Like, equally of value? Like they are actually interested in what others have to say? Just curious if this ever actually happens, with value and not perfunctory.)

My thoughts on this are not new. If we’re addressing sin here, John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter spoke of repentance for sin required to restore fellowship with God and men (people). Repentance required full admission of the sin as well as boots on the ground material restitution and compensation for all wronged: Luke 3.8 & Acts 3.8.

Zacchaeus repaid x4 what he had extorted from others. How should this transgressor compensate his victims? What has been their cost? For actual repentance, this compensation, according to the victims’ needs & viewpoint, must be addressed and fulfilled by the predatory transgressor.

screechin’ preachin’ is what I call it. I could only get through the first clip. Then I looked for the shortest clip – third one down was only 42 seconds. At the end of that one he whines ‘Trust me, being a pastor in this season has been difficult’. That about says it all – all about them, not those who have been hurt; those who they have been given the charge to care for.

His speaking style is the corniest I’ve seen in awhile. What a delivery with shouting and half smiles of a serious issue.

Muff Potter: If I hear ‘Biblical’ one more time from those professional Christians, I won’t know whether to laugh, cry, or cuss.
Probably all three, although I wouldn’t wanna’ predict in what order.

“Biblical”, “Scriptural”, “Gospel”, and “Christian” are no longer buzzwords.
They are Cusswords.
Only useful for Mockery.

Max: The problem with that is finding enough “who live by the Spirit” Christians.

What problem, Max?
Just invoke Christianese One-Upmanship:
“I LIVE IN THE SPIRIT! YOU LIVE BY THE FLESH!”

Max: “The last will be first, and the first last.”

“The last shall be first, The first shall take New Hampshire.”
— Jerry “Governor Moonbeam” Brown, Doonesbury, back when he was trying for the White House

Dee,

First time poster here. Thanks for the service you are doing by hosting this blog.

As I have been following the stories surrounding the Guideposts Solutions report and the larger issues of the prevalence of so many forms of abuse throughout the organized/institutional church, this question has occurred to me:
“Can a pastor EVER have an affair?”

It would seem that any kind of sexualized/romantic or “inappropriate” relationship or contact with a member of their church or someone looking to them for any kind of spiritual guidance would by definition be abuse because of the power imbalance. Correct?

What if the person were not in that pastor’s congregation and not specifically looking for spiritual guidance from that pastor? Could that person engage in a consensual affair with the pastor?

What if the person were unaware of the pastor’s “occupation;” didn’t know that the pastor was a pastor? Hypothetically (because I’m sure it would never happen-sarcasm), could a pastor go on Tinder (or Grindr), not reveal that he was a pastor, and engage in a consensual sexual affair? Obviously this behavior would require a much different confession than the “I inadvertently slipped in to the temptation that just appeared before me” that seems to be common in these pre-restoration-to-unspecified (ministry) statements. The premeditation and intentionality for a pastor to have a consensual affair rather than engage in abuse would be much less excusable to a congregation, I suspect.

Then again, in the hypothetical, would the information asymmetry constitute its own form of abuse?

I’m curious to hear your thoughts about these questions. I’m not making an argument, just thinking on the screen and trying to process my own experiences in the evangelical world as I grieve for those devastated by what frail human committed to the preservation of power and wealth have done in the name of Christ.

DragonSlyr: “Can a pastor EVER have an affair?”

IMO, yes. I would classify Carl Lentz’s sexual relationship with Ranin Karim an affair. But I would like to know what Diane Langberg thinks.

FreshGrace:
screechin’ preachin’ is what I call it. I could only get through the first clip. Then I looked for the shortest clip – third one down was only 42 seconds.At the end of that one he whines ‘Trust me, being a pastor in this season has been difficult’. That about says it all – all about them, not those who have been hurt; those who they have been given the charge to care for.

By far my favorite of the videos. The “creepy” factor was off the charts!

Max: Some Christianese is “Biblical”, HUG … can’t throw out God’s plan for His Church because a few knuckleheads are trying to mess it up.

But then where’s the signal amid all the noise?

DragonSlyr,

Great question.

I think the answer is obviously “yes” – for pastors seeking a partner outside their congregation.

But what I always read about in stories of pastors abusing congregants is “undue influence”. In every story I’ve read of pastors seeking partners within their congregations, these pastors seek to control the behavior, information, thoughts, and emotions of the person they are abusing. In no sense are they having a consensual “affair”; instead, they are coercing someone into abuse.

A pastor who seeks an affair with someone outside the congregation is unhealthy and needs help. But a pastor using his real or perceived power to abuse a congregant is perpetrating a level of destruction on that congregant that is soul-destroying. Both are horrible – one indicates a truly dangerous person.

Paul K,

“A pastor who seeks an affair with someone outside the congregation is unhealthy and needs help.”
++++++++++++++

well,….what’s an affair?

it’s quite a loaded, old-fashioned word.

John: I hate “sermon voice.” The only thing worse is their “prayer voice.”

I’ve grown highly suspicious of people who exhibit a lot of control over their own voice and who routinely deploy that skill; I intuit that they have developed skill in use of their own voice as an instrument with which to manipulate people.

Samuel Conner: use of their own voice as an instrument with which to manipulate people

as well as to intimidate and dominate … folks who use their voice to speak with authority to control others do so with an illegitimate authority

Samuel Conner: John: I hate “sermon voice.” The only thing worse is their “prayer voice.”

Our pastor, who just retired after many years of service in our church, told us that he almost wasn’t allowed to go on in the seminary he went to (not a Baptist one) because of his raspy voice; they didn’t think it sounded pastor-y enough, I guess…
Glad that stupid idea didn’t win out in the end.

Samuel Conner: I’ve grown highly suspicious of people who exhibit a lot of control over their own voice and who routinely deploy that skill; I intuit that they have developed skill in use of their own voice as an instrument with which to manipulate people.

Scientology Tone 40 Voice.
(A direct knockoff of “The Voice” from Dune.)

Max: It was part of the grand show he put on each Sunday in his Crystal Cathedral.

And where is Crystal Cahtedral now?

Max: And where is Crystal Cathedral now?

When one’s focus is on the cathedral, on the leader, on the teaching, on church as entertainment … on everything but Jesus … it never ends well for either the pulpit or the pew. (I got this wisdom from my dear wife just now)

Max,

“This indeed is a fountain-qualification of a Preacher, to be travailing in birth till Christ be formed in hearers; and so to preach to them, as hungering and thirsting for their Salvation, and not having only before him the proposing of some profitable matter, or the handling of some point exactly; nay; not only his own exoheration, and the justifying of God by making the hearers inexcusable; but a single serious desire to have them gathered and espoused to Christ; that the proud may be humbled, the hypocrite convinced, and the Word made the favour of life unto life unto them according to their case” (James Durham: Commentarie upon the Book of Revelation, published 1680).

Max,

Indeed Max. Small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life and only a few find it.

Talk is cheap. I used to think when somebody said they were Christian that meant they were trying to walk as a disciple of Jesus in humility, forgiveness, truth, and servanthood. Now I don’t assume it means anything until proven otherwise. The corollary is I’m quite amazed when I find a genuine disciple. Even among the clergy class.

Samuel Conner,

i find that manipulation is simply baked in to the church leadership industry.

i look at my most recent church (which i felt was the best and most honest of churches i’ve been a part of).

the leaders are decent, good human beings trying to do their best.

but i observed manipulative speech patterns and presentation of information. i imagine they, too, are influenced by such things by their ‘influencers’.

it’s just the done thing, the emulated thing, the industry standard for how to do church, despite best intentions.

Lowlandseer,

a rare and endangered species

elastigirl,

thank you. It’s important to not swing 100% of the way from “bad systems” toward “bad people” as explanations for the problems one sees.

But there are “bad people”. It is thought that roughly one in 25 has sociopathic personality traits. I have become hypersensitive to this possibility in the people I deal with.

Thanks for the reminder that even the good people are trapped in their systems. (That sounds a bit Marxist — KM thought that the problems of capitalism were not down simply to ‘bad capitalists,’ but that the system itself constrained them to do what they do)/ Perhaps it’s a form of Gresham’s Law, applied to religion — ‘bad church drives out good’.

Paul K,

Yup

Paul K: The evangelical church culture that idolizes pastors is insane … so many pastors real-life education, achievements, and skills DO NOT MERIT the praise they receive

“Elders with a gift of leadership should be considered worthy of respect, and of adequate salary, particularly if they work hard at their preaching and teaching.” (1 Timothy 5:17 Phillips)

Respect and adequate pay if they are deserved, certainly. But idolized?!

And another thing … borrowing sermons from the internet is not working hard at preaching and teaching … in fact, God says He is against such folks:

“Therefore behold (hear this), I am against the counterfeit prophets,” says the Lord, who steal My words from one another.” (Jeremiah 23:30 AMP)

elastigirl: it’s just the done thing, the emulated thing, the industry standard for how to do church, despite best intentions.

As usual elastigirl, you’re right.
That’s exactly what it is.
An effin’ industry.

Paul K,

YES. You might like this Christianity Today article about the benefits of establishing regular feedback channels in churches: https://www.christianitytoday.com/pastors/2022/spring/dont-need-thicker-skin-criticism-feedback-ike-miller.html

Wild Honey,

Read it when it came out. Loved it. Saved it. Sent it to people.

Samuel Conner,

“But there are “bad people”.”

“‘bad church drives out good’.”
+++++++++++++++

it’s the weirdest thing….

how is it that Jesus’ namesake religion and people who claim to follow him generate such destructive, cruel, and stupid systems (including doctrine)?

how is it Jesus’ namesake group attracts, promotes, and enables many people of the worst character for its leaders? (my atheist, agnostic, muslim and hindu friends and family have the highest integrity without even trying)

how is it Jesus’ namesake everything, as a whole, looks nothing like Jesus of Nazareth?

i mean, i recently read the book of Luke, the whole thing. (It had been a while.)

the person i read about bore no resemblance to this thing called church, or christian culture, or all the things that christians talk about and write about.

my silly religion has become a caricature of itself.

but this is old news.

Bridget,

Sorry, this is on the wrong thread. Please ignore.

Max: Oh Lord, how many “sermons” I suffered through during my 70+ years in church … preached by “pastors” for 30-60 minutes without really saying anything.

It’s not only lawyers who can talk for a hour and say absolutely nothing.

Jeffrey Chalmers,

Thankfully, Calvin knew God and His Son Jesus because this is what he says in 2 Timothy 1:8 about the importance of preaching the Gospel. “2 Timothy 1:8 – He infers this from what has been already said; for he who is armed with the power of God will not tremble at the noise raised by the world, but will reckon it honourable that wicked men mark them with disgrace.
And justly does he call the gospel the testimony of our Lord; because, although he has no need of our assistance, yet he lays upon us this duty, that we shall give “testimony” to him for maintaining his glory. It is a great and distinguished honour which he confers upon us, and, indeed, upon all, (for there is no Christian that ought not to reckon himself a witness of Christ,) but chiefly pastors and teachers, as Christ said to the apostles,—“Ye shall be witnesses to me.” (Acts 1:8.) Accordingly, the more hateful the doctrine of the gospel is in the world, the more earnestly should they labour to confess it openly.”

And a few weeks before he died, he addressed a letter to the ministers of Geneva and said, among other things, “As to my doctrine, I have taught faithfully, and God has given me grace to write what I have written as faithfully as it was in my power. I have not falsified a single passage of the Scriptures, nor given it a wrong interpretation to the best of my knowledge; and though I might have introduced subtle senses, had I studied subtilty, I cast that temptation under my feet and always aimed at simplicity.
I have written nothing out of hatred to any one, but I have always faithfully propounded what I esteemed to be for the glory of God.”

From which I conclude that not only did Calvin know God, but that God knew Calvin, contrary to your vain surmising.

Muff Potter: People who burn other people alive for not believing the way they do, do not know God.

He was a man of his time and constrained by the customs of his time, just like Paul, Jesus,…

oh… wait….

Lowlandseer: Well he didn’t, so get over it.

I stand corrected. No one who pushes the first domino can blamed for what happens with later dominoes…

Ken F (aka Tweed),

Who was it that ordered Servtus burned on a pyre of GREEN wood (which burns much more slowly)?

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: It’s now “Christ Cathedral,” a building owned by the Catholic diocese of Orange.

I still think the world would have been better off by having that glass human cooker torn down but not my choice.

The diocese had been looking for a cathedral site for some time, even starting construction on one in Santa Ana. And when the Crystal Cathedral Fire Sale went down, they couldn’t pass up the bargain.

I understand the building took a lot of internal remodeling and refurbishing. It also includes a lot of office spaces, so they were able to close down the old diocesan offices – “Marywood” in the hills east of where Lincoln Blvd crosses the 55 Freeway.