Pillars of Creation in infrared. Image captured by the #Hubble Space Telescope.NASA
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” ― Thomas Szasz
Recently, a highly intelligent and respected person told me that their denomination, Assemblies of God, didn’t have child sex abuse problems. I was stunned. This person was aware of this blog and seemed to believe that the AOG was exempt from the problem. They may have even thought that my concerns were overblown.
They seemed to have no trouble imagining the extensive, decades-long abuses in the Boys Scouts of America. They most likely believed that group was not a fine Christian group like the AOG. And the Catholic church? Well, they weren’t as theologically put together as the AOG. Perhaps they believed, like so many other evangelicals, that the priests molested kids because they “weren’t allowed to marry.” They appear to have never considered that the priests who were not pedophiles and wanted to disregard their vows would do so with a consenting adult not involved with their church. A normal, adult priest would not wake up one day and say “I want to have sex. I think I shall do it with a 5 yeard old kid.”
Today I was interviewed by a man who is researching the despicable actions of Ravi Zacharias. He asked me a question that I have been asked time and time again. “How does a person who is Christian, and even goes into ministry, justify their actions in the abuse of children and adults?”
I said something to the effect of the following. Many people make the assumption that a “man of the cloth” is there because they want to follow Jesus. I asked if he ever considered the possibility that abusers enter the ministry in order to pursue the abuse of children and adults? It isn’t hard to fake Christian lingo and espouse simplistic beliefs. Add to that a charismatic personality combined with an ability to fake out people and you have the basic elements for an abuser to run rampant within a church. And, if a person is being deliberately deceptive, then the “No True Scotsman Fallacy” does not apply. The problem lies in discovering the motivations of an individual.
Then combine that deceptive or abusive individual with an elder board or any other type of board that loves the charisma and the money-making potential of their “pastor” and we have a board that is just there to be best buddies with their “godly leader.” I have made the point that just about anybody, with 90 seconds spare time, should have been able to see that Zacharias’ bio on his website and on Wikipedia was just plain nuts. I certainly did.
I was left to conclude that his board, his family, and his speakers like Sam Allberry and BFFs liked the income so much that they just didn’t care to look too carefully at things. When I wrote that post, I had commenters who tried to tell me that telling lies was the norm for people who come here from India. I asked those folks if they were saying that all Indians lie? They backed off, quickly.
I also stressed to the interviewer that even Christians are both saints and sinners according to the Lutheran church that I attend. Therefore, we would be naive to assume that anyone in evangelicalism is purely a saint and that includes me. In other words, expect trouble.
So I did what I should have done when this person seemed to indicate that the AOG had no “abuse” problems. I visited my good friend, Google. In about 30 seconds, I found the first example of sex abuse in the AOG. A few months back, Ministry Watch posted: Assemblies of God Settles Sexual Abuse Lawsuit Involving Royal Rangers Volunteers
A lawsuit filed in Oregon on behalf of several men who said they were sexually abused as boys while they were members of a scouting-like program sponsored by the Assemblies of God has been settled out of court.
The amount of the settlement was not disclosed.
The case combined two lawsuits filed in 2018 by plaintiffs who said they were sexually abused in the 1980s by two volunteers in the Royal Rangers program at First Assemblies of God Church of Albany, Oregon—Ralph Gantt and Todd Clark—the Springfield (Missouri) News-Leader reported.
Some of the original plaintiffs had already settled with three remaining on the case.
The Royal Rangers program is a ministry for boys in grades K-12 with a mission to “evangelize, equip and empower the next generation of Christlike men and lifelong servant leaders.”
The national denominational office located in Springfield was named as a defendant in the case as well as First Assemblies of God Church of Albany and the Oregon District of the Assemblies of God. The complaint said the organizations should be held responsible for their adult volunteers, who they “selected, approved, trained, supervised and maintained the right of control and/or actual control over.”
Here’s another example. It appears that the AOG has been accused of recirculating sexual predators. IS YOUR CHURCH SAFE?
The Assemblies of God claims to believe in the verbal plenary inspiration of the scriptures (i.e., that it is the actual word of God, literally, and must be followed at all costs). However, when it comes to the scriptural mandates for church leadership (1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:6-9), the Assemblies of God throws the scriptures under the bus. The Assemblies of God has a “rehabilitation” program that recirculates sexual offenders back into the ministry under an Assemblies of God credential. And, after they place these offenders back into the ministry, they leave the parishioners in the dark about it. It is difficult to comprehend why anyone, let alone a church, would take on such a legal liability without any apparent benefit in return. It is also difficult to comprehend the hypocrisy. This practice is not only negligent, it is morally reprehensible. It you are also troubled, read on.
How about this one? CBS 42 reports: Vernon (TX) Assembly of God minister had sex with minor in church and motel, supplied meth:
The affidavit charging a Vernon pastor with sexual assault of a 15-year-old girl alleges he groomed her for sex by counseling her at church, getting her a job and providing her with meth, both at the church and a motel.
Brian Keith Pounds, 45, remains jailed in Wichita County on a $200,000 bond. Pounds was listed on websites as minister at First Assembly of God Church in Vernon, and also as a Chaplain at Tyson Foods in Vernon.
And here’s another one from New Zealand: Assemblies of God leaders alleged to have abused children.
Leaders of a New Zealand church agreed to keep details from their congregations about a prominent pastor’s sexual abuse of children, it has emerged, as the Royal Commission into Abuse in Care prepares to target clergy.
A special Herald investigation has uncovered fresh allegations and evidence of child abuse perpetrated by two leaders of the Assemblies of God (AOG) before both abusers left New Zealand to continue their ministries in Australia.
It took me about 90 seconds to find these examples. So, when a bright person tried to tell me that the AOG is above reproach, I have to wonder if they really care about their church. Anyone who hasn’t spent the time to look up what is going on in their own denomination is either being deliberately ignorant or doesn’t care enough to figure out.
I look forward to anyone who wants to claim their church is free from predators. That includes those who would rather believe the best instead of believing the truth.
I’m sure some abusers enter ministry because it seems like a great atmosphere full of gullible people. But I suspect there’s also a sector of people who want to be rid of their sexual perversions, and they think that if they become pastors/priests, they’ll become holy and the sins won’t plague them anymore. And then they find out the sin patterns are as entrenched as ever, but they’re stuck living a double life.
A Calvinist lady who attends a bible chapel in the DFW area once told me the exact same thing: “It would never happen here. Our elders wouldn’t let it happen.”
How naive can you get? (And, at the same time, how arrogant!) No wonder predators have a field day in churches.
“…abusers enter the ministry in order to pursue the abuse of children and adults? It isn’t hard to fake Christian lingo and espouse simplistic beliefs. Add to that a charismatic personality combined with an ability to fake out people and you have the basic elements for an abuser to run rampant within a church.”
2 thoughts:
1) Predators don’t have to be in the ministry; they can simply be attending and active in a church, using church as their hunting ground.
2) During an interview with a partner attorney of Jeff Anderson’s firm, she said they not only have cases addressing child sexual abuse with priests, but also with most other denominations (pastors, youth leaders, lay leaders, etc.). She said she had an AoG case that very week.
Perhaps they imagine that “YHWH does not see.”
Of course, that text dates from a period before the advent of internet search engines. One would think that modern people of even … simple character would know about Google.
I think you can also have people starting out “believing”, and then “fall off the cliff”, and spiral down. Now, being a pedo is a “special” type of depravity, but we have plenty of examples on TWW of “preacher boys” going after “cute young ones”….
Not hard to imagine letting being a celebrity preacher “go to your head”…. And charisma does not equal strength of character…
And our current, popular, “way we do church” just encourages “preacher boys” to inflate their egos.. how those “egos” get satisfied fits well into the old adage, “wine women, and song”…..
My point, so many ways we can get depraved leaders… sigh…
“… a question that I have been asked time and time again. “How does a person who is Christian, and even goes into ministry, justify their actions in the abuse of children and adults?””
That question has always been easy for me to answer. They are not Christian … for you shall know them by their fruit.
“Be on your guard against false religious teachers, who come to you dressed up as sheep but are really greedy wolves. You can tell them by their fruit. Do you pick a bunch of grapes from a thorn-bush or figs from a clump of thistles? Every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree is incapable of producing bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. The tree that fails to produce good fruit is cut down and burnt. So you may know men by their fruit.” (Matthew 7:15-20 Phillips)
“If anyone is in Christ [that is, grafted in, joined to Him by faith in Him as Savior], he is a new creature [reborn and renewed by the Holy Spirit]; the old things [the previous moral and spiritual condition] have passed away. Behold, new things have come [because spiritual awakening brings a new life].” (2 Corinthians 5:17 AMP)
If (IF … IF … IF) anyone is in Christ, he is not a sexual predator. We need to accept the fact that there are lost men who go into the ministry to commit sins which reflect their lost condition. They know that folks will trust them because they profess to be a pastor … they know that they can hide in plain sight to fulfill their lusts behind a trusted curtain of ministry. They are not Christian, pure and simple. Many corners of the American church have become an equal opportunity employer for sexual predators of children and adults. IMO, these demons have been planted in every Christian denomination and organization worldwide … that’s just what the devil would do.
and Dee,
Given that our (small ones’) ministry since Ascension is the significant thing in the current eschaton, does anyone stop to think of the difference in meaning between a Daniel written before Antiochus and one written after? Is the Old Testament merely some sort of numerologic “gotcha”?
— espouse simplistic beliefs
— that telling lies (about God-given hermeneutics, Steve Baughman uses the word “cheated”, p 159 note 267) was the norm for people who come here from (whatever country)
— Sam et al have thrown us a headline issue to tut tut over. But what are they doing for our beliefs ongoingly?
Ahhh, but you can trust the pulpit … but who is that guy in the pew behind you really? Victims of abuse have fallen into the snare of a predator-pastor believing he can be trusted … after all, he went to seminary, he was ordained into Christian ministry, he is an excellent preacher, etc. Ravi Zacharias was considered by many as the greatest apologist for Christianity in the 20th century … Bill Hybels’ model for doing church is used worldwide … Tullian Tchividjian was Billy Graham’s grandson … etc. etc.
Max–are sure you don’t want to pastor a church? You keep hitting them out of the ballpark.
Toughest thing for some to see is that not all who name the name of Christ are truly saved. Jesus warned us about this. And yet we just cannot accept it.
“When I wrote that post, I had commenters who tried to tell me that telling lies was the norm for people who come here from India. I asked those folks if they were saying that all Indians lie? They backed off, quickly.”
If you are referring to me and to a certain person who runs a charity in India, lived there for a couple of decays, and deals with both Christians and people of other faiths there, then let me say that no we did not back off.
We assume when we come from an Judeo/Christian country background that every culture thinks lying is evil. Travel the world some and you will see that is not the case. Islam, for instance, has spiritualized lying to the unbelievers for the sake of the faith. A good liar for the faith is praised. Taqiyya it is called and it is well documented in their own holy books: https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/taqiyya.aspx
The reality is India is a 3rd world country. Those from there that you see here on visas are very rich by their standards. You know how those families get rich in that culture? Lying for the wealth of the family is considered to be a praiseworthy thing. Again, this is not a Christian country. Those who are best at the deception game tend to get the richest. Just look at KP Yohannan or a bunch of other gurus. The poor Christian who bucks the culture certainly exists but you will have to go over there and look hard for them. You will not find them over here as cultural celebrities.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
I had the same line of thinking.
Thomas Szasz? Did you find the quote or did you know the man? Inquiring existentialists would like to know. Quite an original thinker.
I am working on a committee to write a child-sexual-abuse prevention policy. We will next work on policies to address sexual abuse of adults, but this is first. WOW it’s a tough subject to research and to talk to people about. We just dont want to believe that it could happen in our own house. But sunshine and fresh air are the best bleach. It’s so important to face reality and discuss things openly.
Not everyone bought their books and drank their Koolaide although “Xian” mainstream Media projects their preeminence.
Hybels was commercial – could never understand why anyone would attend his global summits… that our local churches pushed. Tullian was a tanned poster boy. RZ was a slimy talker. Fake, posers, grifters, $$$, image, platforms, nothing to do with Jesus.
In any case, church itself is assumed to be a place of trust. In truth, it is inherently dangerous, protecting criminals and providing victims to predators. Church does NOT protect the vulnerable, beginning at the top, then through and through.
Tear down the hierarchy of male power towers, for starters.
Equal accountability and equal voice bring the fresh air and the light of day you mention.
There’s a lot of dirt shoved under the church rug.
Linda, I’m afraid my style of preachin’ would preach the church empty! I don’t have it in me to tweet the message to allow the back pew to catch up … they never do.
After decades of observing the “church” in action, I’m convinced that the 80:20 rule applies … 80% profess the name of Christ, but don’t know Him … 20% are the real-deal, agonizing about the other 80% being so far off track – many of them in the pulpit!
Max–agree re the 80/20 rule. And when preachers started relying on manipulating decisions instead of relying on preaching the truth and trusting the Holy Spirit to zing it home in hearts, the church, theologically speaking, went to hell in a handbasket. Fast trip. No way will God honor a work of man over Jesus Christ. Period.
Agree. “Towers,” in which live many enabling women, and men, who will not likely soon “see” or support the better handling of abuse issues. Would mess, too much, with their investment. It’s time to now see more of the easy to say, “not yet.”
I am not a child molester.
I hold to the tenets of the Apostle’s Creed as non-negotiable items up front and on the table.
And there are still some who will say that I’m ‘not saved’ because I may or may not believe this, that, or the other beyond the Creed.
One thing I’m extremely glad for is that they won’t decide my fate on judgement day.
Well stated. They’re invested and dug in, to a toxic arena. Familial spirits. Entangled and hooked.
Max,
Uhm… the parable of those who readied their lamps… a percentage…a remnant, no more.
A young SBC preacher in my area, in an effort to boost church membership, posted on social media: “Baptizing next Sunday! Sign up on Facebook!!” Another, an AOG pastor, baptized 400 one Sunday in an inflatable swimming pool on the parking lot … it was a real festive atmosphere with food and fun. I suppose all of the “converts” in both churches truly believed they had entered the Kingdom of Heaven … and some did, I suppose … but the theatrics were just too much for this ole man.
Ava, it may be down to just you, me & Jesus pretty soon 🙂
Seriously, the Christian Industrial Complex – with its hype and hypocrisy – has made it extremely difficult for folks to find the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
“The judgment was set, and the books were opened” (Daniel 7:10)
Muff–we agree. I speak of those in my knowledge who have trod the sawdust trail, made a very public profession of Christ, and yet do not make any attempt to follow him. Some would be “good churchmen” while making it clear outside the doors that they did not believe that “religious drivel” as they put it. Some were SBC and some were RCC. Some were Lutheran and some were Mennonite.
So just because someone professes faith, be it on the altar call or perhaps at confirmation as a teen, or however their faith family handles that, does not mean they are Christians.
And I have met many who intellectually could hold to all the historic creeds, have been duly baptized and confirmed, or in SBC fashion had a heart felt experience and were dunked, who were, shall we say, less than convincing in their testimony. You are correct I won’t be picking through who is saved and unsaved come judgment day, but while I am on this earth there are some I will be treating AS unbelievers. I am cool if God overrules my judgment on that day, but for safety’s sake I trust no pedigree. I want to see the talk walked.
For fun you might enjoy hearing the Mark Trammel Quartet do “Your walk talks.”
Max,
Well, TBH, I’m optimistic. Who was that prophet who thought he was solo, but God reassured him that many believers were hidden in caves?
The Hybels, Tullian, and RZ types were showmen. All antlers, no venison. Trophy clergy.
The Bride of Christ is never a trophy wife, lipstick and heels with neither heart nor thoughts.
Jesus Himself (God) was no showman. Creator of the universe needs no showmanship to pump ego, image, wallet. Jesus never collected a tithe, never put out a PR campaign, and always kept a low profile.
“Elijah the prophet complained to God about the people of Israel and said, “LORD, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me, too.” And do you remember God’s reply? He said, “No, I have 7,000 others who have never bowed down to Baal!”” (Romans 11:2-4)
You, me, Jesus and 7,000 more! 🙂
No mansion on earth, no place to lay his head … no designer shoes, only sandals … no sports cars, rode a donkey once … few friends, and one of them was a devil. Yep, today’s celebrity pulpit doesn’t look much like Jesus.
Max,
This one’s for you Max, for all of us really, it will move the stoniest of hearts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSif77IVQdY
Muff Potter,
Brought back good memories, Muff. I’m so old, I attended such services! A different pulpit, a different pew, a different spirit, the Gospel was being preached, souls were being gloriously saved, a genuine move of God and presence of Jesus in those days.
I identified with the Church then … I know identify with:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGMG_PVaJoI
Oh please.
I work in a multi cultural workplace.
People are people. Corruption is everywhere.
Oh yes, christianity is SO much better.
Did your missionary pal actually learn the language & culture? Or did they go there to save the “the little brown brothers”.
Them missionaries been at it for a while. India’s still overwhelmingly Hindu.
Maybe they’re a little cheesed that Jesus didn’t make the difference they thought he would so obviously it’s not messenger, it’s those darn people.
They. Just. Don’t. Listen.
Shoot, last sermon, I went to I can kinda see why.
I was raised Christian and I feel less affinity for it every day.
Maybe. Or maybe the rot was just painted over. There was a lot going on behind closed doors.
Remember the Dodge Aspen and Plymouth Volare? Intercrystalline rust. Looked good on the showroom but underneath the shiny paint, they were already rotten.
Chevy Vegas too.
You don’t see those cars anymore.
Mr. Jesperson,
Generalizing again, I see.
Thank you for the link, Muff Potter. The singing was beautiful.
Some are earlier on “saved” with insufficient grounding by those that ought to know better, then become as near unsaved as poss. through proximity to the system that doesn’t care for them.
Mr. Jesperson,
There are different varieties.
The denominations Mr Zacharias was exposed to from his childhood when he was emotionally vulnerable (and there was some unstated problem around cricket), originated in England 200 years ago which was cocksure and overbearing and ensured that religion was stripped of essentials.
India exhibits elaboration, which it mistakenly takes literally.
(The west is deeper than the east, but sadly is catching up.)
Some religions and the national or political mindsets that make them up, employ mental reservation.
Muff–love that song!
Max–Wilkerson does exactly what he is preaching against. Oh, he doesn’t try to entertain but he is still relying on what MAN does. God will move if we all just get upset enough. NO! Preach JESUS! IMHO lol.
Best car I ever had prior to my Honda Accord, was an air cooled beetle.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/hipster-megachurch-in-shambles-over-pastors-alleged-affair/ar-AAT1HUO
The story about Chattanooga pastor Dee wrote a post about nearly a month ago made it to MSN main page today!
Serious question (it also concerns even the smallest churches):
Within the Pentecostal and Charismatic congregations that are Arminian, is the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” i.e., speaking in tongues held in such high esteem, that when all pastors have to be able to speak in tongues it blinds the people to the possibility that their pastor could be a pedophile? Why would the Spirit bless a pedophile?
“Everyone used to say, ‘Venue is a cult, Venue is a cult,’ and I was like, ‘No, it’s not,’” the volunteer who witnessed the chili incident told The Daily Beast. “And now as I look back I’m like, ‘I don’t think I was in a Godly place.’”
It’s hard to see what you are in when you are in. It’s only when you step out of the circle that you can see clearly. Celebrity church cults have become part of the American scene … you can find them in darn near every city. Cool pastors, cool music, church as entertainment, cool, cool, cool … the place where everybody wants to go, except Jesus.
linda,
Could that be summed up to “hiding behind procedure?”
The church has failed to disciple new believers in many places.
My first new car was a VW beetle. Paid $3500 for it. Used it to bring my wife and newborn daughter home from the hospital through a snow storm. Wish I still had it.
So one can be a part of the “cool crowd”, and miss out on Jesus.
Jesus, His indwelt gift-giving & fruit-producing Holy Spirit, and Creator God are the real deal, that money can’t buy.
Two roads diverged, and the less traveled is the high road. Choice.
When and where has the Spirit blessed a pedophile? What is meant by “blessed”?
Muff Potter,
My wind-up Morris 1000 was my own nicest; but my first, a wind-up Austin A40 Farina Mk II (two hundred pounds), was nearly as nice.
For a fortnight (around 40 years ago) I drove a VW 1600 Fastback Kugelfischer injected semi-automatic, on a carefree joint holiday with a Christian family plus assorted singles (one bungalow each for ladies and for fellows), that was the loveliest mover I’ve tried, around lanes of Wales (a man who used to roll roads accompanied by his dog and lived in a bedsit had bought us it specially for the duration).
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
1. Attend, attend, attend.
2. Give, give, give.
3. Deny, deny, deny (the greed & affair you witness).
4. Forgive, forgive, forgive (the pastor who wants a comeback).
All messages from the pulpit: the scam.
The exwife, fleeing leaders, and burned out parishioners aren’t buying it… FINALLY.
Will there be a new Venue? Another city? Another scam?
I should have put it in a better context, more verbiage to explain the thought. Would the congregation of a Pentecostal or Charismatic church, the pastor having received the second blessing, would that blind them to the idea that he could ever be a pedophile? Why would God give a pedophile the second blessing (sarcasm)? My instincts as a former abused kid, and wiser adult say yes, people can be that stupid. But I’m especially curious to hear from others who have attended Pentecostal or Charismatic churches, what are their thoughts on this. For the record I’m in the OSAS camp but have been attending a Classic Pentecostal church for the last two years.
I saw this when living in a non-western country (not India), too. The (indigenous owned and managed) organization I worked for inflated employee credentials to clients, among other things. It was a very competitive climate, so they’d argue that they had to in order to survive.
BUT, I would point out two things.
First, it is often easier to see the foibles in another culture than in one’s own.
Second, it’s not like we’re exempt from it, ourselves. We even have a phrase for it: “little white lie.”
And, actually, the director of my daughter’s Christian (emphasis on Christian) preschool just used that phrase with me the other day.
Why? She’d like to hire me, because they are desperately short staffed and I am available, but I don’t have the required Early Childhood Education coursework.
Her solution? Skip the background check when hiring me, because that would trigger the licensing agency to ask for my transcripts, and “tell a little white lie” that I’m a volunteer instead of an aide when the agency comes for their inspection.
(Given the nature of Wartburg, I’m sure you can imagine my reaction to the whole “skip the background check” bit.)
Did I mention this is the Christian director of a Christian preschool associated with a Christian church? In the US?
Brian,
Spiritual gifts are open for us all but will not take healthy root if or as we are wilfully unwholesome of will. For those confirmed in their own minds to be unwholesome of will, church authorities listening to discerning congregation members should steer them away from positions of leadership. Likewise any waverers provisionally. There must be ways of doing firm things tactfully. I have had great love for genuine pentecostal / charismatic things and have been beyond anguish how they, and Scripture, and all teaching, got debased. In my young day discernment and tact were actually reputed spiritual. A socially open mindset meant the elite didn’t have entitlement to monopolise leadership? Fundamentalism ruined the pentecostals; they plumped for superstition.
Michael in UK,
Did I mention lives of prayer – and of thorough knowledge of ALL meanings of Scriptures – throughout church membership? If not, why didn’t I? (Replying to self – it gets like that.)
Dr Wilkerson isn’t haranguing. One doesn’t “get oneself” upset as a doing – in any useful way. You are either so BEYOND anguish like I’ve been incoherent for years, or you aren’t. Dr Wilkerson preaches Jesus and the Comforter He sent: one of the few.
Why would Nehemiah risk a secure existence for heaps of rubble and strife – he even placed himself in danger proposing it. I literally CHOKE when I’m anywhere near any of the identikit badge-engineered churches.
Would you think we should hold to a superstitious view of prayer? What does it do for our image to the world or to christians if we show an interest in rubble and strife? What does it do to our image for God, if we have surrendered that by now?
Some children piped and danced, and they cried in sadness: the others weren’t interested either way. The emotional tripping as mechanism hoop to put us through got overdone, so a suave deadpan thing (equally unthinking) became chic.
Do we really think we’ve got a life as secure as Nehemiah’s was? Have dodgy churches undermined world mores?
Wild Honey,
Can the church pray for God’s way through? Even a school boss needs prayer help. Perhaps you will find other – decent – employment for sufficient hours and have a little time to volunteer (and mentor others in volunteering)?
The image of “prayer” got turned into prying and imposing false templates.
Is it part of the staged show? Performance art?
Max,
VW beetles were well suited to ice and snow. The engine over the rear axles provided weight that allowed those little cars to power through snow banks.
My first car was an 81 AMC Spirit. Not a very dependable car.
“Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?
On the heights along the way,
where the paths meet,
she takes her stand”
(Proverbs 8:1-2)
Priestcraft?
Just like the KEWL Kids Table in High School.
“They have never left High School. They will never leave High School. And they will never ever let any of us leave THEIR High School.”
Noticed a constant refrain in the article:
Founding Lead Pastor apparently never even took a dump unless it was God’s Command.
God Told Him To, God Led Him To, God Revealed Unto Him, God Demands You Give, God God God God God. Like he was just a mindless puppet.
At least he’s not claiming Private Revelation like he was last year.
“Take on the White Man’s Burden…”?
Gimmicks.
What was that church covered here years ago where Pastor Superapostle actually hired paid shills to get dunked high-profile?
There’s another application of the 80/20 Rule in action today, both in churches and politics:
When consensus within a group reaches 80%, Groupthink locks in HARD and the 20% become Traitors and Heretics to be Purged. Welcome to the Echo Chamber, with NO reality check possible.
You know that towers are very PHALLIC shapes?
Especially when they widen out at the top and look circumcised?
I apologize, I having total brain blockage today. I’ll quote from “Bible Doctrines: A Pentecostal Perspective” by William W. Menzies and Stanley M. Horton, pages 123 – 12 :
“The baptism in the Holy Spirit is not primarily is not primarily for the development of holiness in the individual (although this may be and should be enhanced by baptism of the Spirit); it is empowering for service.”
When you accept Jesus as your Savior, you get the indwelling of the person of the Holy Spirit, but not completely. You haven’t received the Holy Spirit as Jesus said in Acts 1:8. You have to specifically request the “Second Blessing”, “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” i.e., speaking in tongues. The ability to speak in tongues shows that you have received the person of the Holy Spirit as Jesus said in Acts 1:8.
In the Pentecostal denomination I belong to if you can’t speak in tongues you can’t serve as a Pastor, Bishop, etc.
… witchcraft, witch doctor, cult leader, cult of personality, narcissist, Oz-behind-the-curtain, cosplay, snake oil salesman, scammer, poser, conman… “faith”.
With stageshow, covenant, NDA, hierarchy, subversion of women, and opacity… which are the boots-on-the-ground practices of the trifecta of power + vice + $$$ (resources).
Where is that in the Bible?
There are other evidences of the Holy Spirit’s presence in believers, than just that gift … wisdom, knowledge, preaching/teaching ability, and various other gifts. The inability to speak in tongues does not mean that someone has not received the Holy Spirit. IMHO, Pentecostalism’s overemphasis of this has resulted in some folks manufacturing the gift of tongues to demonstrate that they have received the Holy Spirit … when their true gifting may be in other areas.
“The Holy Spirit is given to each of us in a special way … One man’s gift by the Spirit is to speak with wisdom, another’s to speak with knowledge. The same Spirit gives to another man faith, to another the ability to heal, to another the power to do great deeds. The same Spirit gives to another man the gift of preaching the word of God, to another the ability to discriminate in spiritual matters, to another speech in different tongues. Behind all these gifts is the operation of the same Spirit, who distributes to each individual man, as He wills.” (1 Corinthians 12)
I’ve seen one step beyond that.
As in “If you can’t speak in Tongues, YOU’RE NOT REALLY SAVED.”
I remember when I hung around Pentecostals/Charismatics at one point. WHen they were about to lay on the hands for your separate Baptism of the Holy Spirit, they would ask what Gift of the Spirit you wanted.
And everybody would answer “Tongues”.
Everybody.
Tongues, Tongues, Tongues, Tongues, and Tongues.
I would have answered “Wisdom”, because Wisdom is the command control over all the others, telling you when to use them and (more important) when NOT to. And nobody else seemed to realize this.
Only Tongues, Tongues, Tongues, Tongues, and Tongues.
o.e. A matter of Survival.
Fake It or get turned into a pile of rocks.
Book of Hezekaiah, of course.
(When I was hanging around Azusa Newman Center circa 1980, “The Book of Hezekaiah” was a fictional book of the Bible used to cite verses that weren’t in the Bible but thought to be. Or if you couldn’t remember the Zip Code of an actual verse, the joke was to say “it’s somewhere in Hezekaiah”.)
… lots of gifts manufactured for church stage (pulpit) performance.
True religion in the service of needy orphans and widows (James 1) can’t be faked and is rarely practiced by church leaders. Evidence? Ask an orphan or widow in church.
… and to be uncontaminated by the world. The contamination of the world is all over the 21st century church in America.
“Pure and unblemished religion [as it is expressed in outward acts] in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit and look after the fatherless and the widows in their distress, and to keep oneself uncontaminated by the [secular] world” (James 1:27)
Our blemishes are showing … and the widows and orphans shouted Amen!
Max,
… Listening to Gateway Audio Bible. Jesus just healed a guy and told the healee to keep the miracle on the down low. “Let your life demonstrate God’s love, NOT the miracle.”
LOL … what preacher does this? Performs a miracle and says, “Keep it quiet.”
The only preacher who is NEVER showy, NEVER brags, about His power and performance: Jesus.
Michael in UK,
Sorry, I’m not following.
I am already volunteering there two days a week. Which is helpful but also only a band-aid to the problem, since when a teacher is out sick, they don’t have enough (trained and background checked) teachers for the proper ratio for that number of students per state licensing requirements. Asking more parents to volunteer won’t help meet licensing requirements, either.
Fortunately (for me, at least), I’m in a position where I don’t need the income, so I can refuse to be hired / let them hire someone through the back door.
I do know some humble preachers. People who need miracles are in a bad way, eh? So if something wondrous happens, the response does tend to be quiet relief.
Most preachers in the world of normal churches don’t toss around the term “miracle,” and I don’t know anyone who would take credit. If it’s a miracle, it came from God. Even if something can be explained (a medical treatment works, against expectation), people are usually recovering privately from their terror and pain.
Brian,
The tongues requirement organisationally is wrong. The document you’ve quoted from is badly worded.
Jesus is Word With God and Holy Spirit is God With God. Jesus gets incarnated of the Holy Spirit. Jesus gets baptised into ministry. Three stages.
Holy Spirit guided (unseen) our providence and our serendipitous glimmerings of understanding and relating with God through healing intrigue (and that of the disciples); then Jesus breathed on them; then He left them. Three more stages. Why: so they would “tarry”.
We are meant to tarry AND minister at the same time. The current eschaton of our charisms began at Ascension (as Samuel C. pointed out), simply continuing at Pentecost. There has always been something very fake about the “controversies” around this.
Brian, your raising this is helping us pool our insights. Thank you.
This is where you have to go all Berean on them. (How quietly, is up to you. Churches are nerve wracking.)
The so called “paraphrase” they have given you is ex-ceed-ingly men-daci-ous. Lk 24 and Ac 1 tell me exactly that Father promised Jesus (Who is not subordinate) would send Another Comforter not Another Superstar.
This is the meaning of Is 55, 58, 61, James and the last 21 verses of Proverbs.
In the late 1930s there was a novel about a Fascist dictatorship taking over America (with help from what are now called Televangelists). The title?
IT CAN’T HAPPEN HERE
It’s not in there directly, but you can make it appear by magic if you’re clever enough with other verses to give it a working image.
Good practice.
BTW, I’m enjoying your comments with texts, for looking stuff up.
The abracadabra hocus-pocus formula.
When I was a young thing and newly saved I came *this close* to being a victim of a predatory Assemblies of God evangelist. God kept me safe and I mean that quite literally. The person in question is deceased now…this was over 4 decades ago. Ironically this was right before the Bakker scandal, and in the same area of the country. God taught me right quick that there were wolves in ministry-and shockingly that those wolves could do actual ministry on one hand and be predators on the other. God’s gifts and callings are without repentance -so what I concluded is you cannot judge someone’s character by their ministry success. It is totally by the grace of God that I was not yet another victim.
Assemblies of God Church – this week.
https://julieroys.com/minnesota-church-members-accuse-pastor-cover-up-family-abuses/?fbclid=IwAR3hLWlpveV_6y7ciZK-4E44_tUPSUxXIcY_jbbdJQIugBUYZFDZ64K35d8