A celestial “lightsaber” called HH 24. –NASA/Hubble
“Please repair your narcissism before you start loving your neighbor as yourself.” ― Charles F. Glassman
Matt Chandler exhibits his real character in this recording.
Christianity Today posted Wanted: Church Planters. Reward: $50,000.This is a story seemingly about the wonders of Matt Chandler. I want you to focus on the subtitle:
Q&A with Acts 29 president Matt Chandler on assessing narcissists, the challenge of COVID-19, and new opportunities for vibrant churches.
I was stunned. Matt Chandler assessing narcissists? Let me take you back.
- Matt Chandler is quite proud of the fact that “We” have 7,000 people attending the church and oodles of staff.” It seems like he wants you to know that he is the dudebro who makes this happen and you better be grateful.
- Listen to his rant. It is quite obvious that he is not someone who is willing to patiently listen to critique.
- My husband, overhearing this recording said “The guy needs Valium” in order to tone down his inner “jerk.”
- This is the guy who tried to discipline Karen Hinkley for leaving her child porn-loving husband and sent out a letter to all 6,000 members, spelling out why he was disciplining her. 6,000!
- This is the church that is getting sued by a person who was allegedly molested at a camp. Although the criminal charges have been dropped amidst controversy, the civil suit is going forward.
- Did Chandler inadvertently exhibit his true character on this recording?
- Do you really think his character has changed?
Chandler is so successful and smart that he can assess who is a narcissist.
Back to the Christianity Today article. What’s this about Chandler assessing narcissists? Daniel Silliman for CT asked Chandler:
I’m glad you brought up assessment. One of the things we’ve been thinking about at CT, especially with The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast, is the challenge of assessing character and not just talent. How is Acts 29 assessing character?
Chandler answers:
We made a major shift several years ago. I want to say about seven or eight. We decided we didn’t want to plant a 22- or 23-year-old who hasn’t spent a significant amount of time working in a church under someone else. We want to plant a 28-year-old guy, a 31-year-old guy, 36-year-old guy more than a 22-year-old who thinks he’s going to fix evangelicalism and has a dynamic preaching gift. I think that’s how you get in trouble, when the dynamic gift trumps everything else.
Do they walk in humility? Are they willing to serve others? Do they have to be in the limelight? Do they have to be in control?
Since that shift has been made, we haven’t seen as much of a problem with narcissism.
Dee fell off her chair and scared all three pugs. I wondered what was so different about Chandler’s start in the ministry.
- How long did he word “UNDER” someone else?
- How old was he when he started in the ministry?
- Why is he different than those guys he is guarding the church from?
Chandler is just one of the dudebros he’s protecting you from.
According to Wikipedia:
- Chandler began to work in ministry when he was around 22.
- He accepted the job at his current church when he was 28.
- He got a degree in Bible from Hardin Simmons, a school that appears to have financial problems.
According to The Village Church:
- He started as a youth pastor before he went to college.
- It appears that he had no seminary training. Please correct me if I’m wrong. However, not to worry. John Piper partially formed his character…According to Wikipedia:
Chandler says his character was partially shaped by John Piper.[9]
It is my opinion that Chandler has had absolutely no training in how to assess a narcissist. In fact, using his own parameters, we should be wary of him in the pulpit since it seems he may have started as a youth pastor as a teen. Listening to his rant, I wonder about him… He certainly wasn’t able to assess Anthony Moore. The Village Church reportedly wrote letters of recommendation for him. Christianity Today, recognizing the work of Todd Wilhelm of TWW, wrote: Beyond Cedarville: Why Do Pastors Keep Getting Rehired After Abuse?
CT spoke with four current and former Cedarville professors who said they knew Moore had made a “mistake” related to same-sex attraction and technology, based on White’s introduction and Moore’s own telling. Some assumed pornography or an online relationship. They had no idea that he had reportedly filmed a subordinate at his previous church in the shower. The revelation, detailed by multiple bloggers and journalists who focus on abuse in the church including Todd Wilhelm and Julie Roys, led to Moore’s firing on Thursday.
There is some controversy in which The Village Church claims they gave all information regarding Moore to Cedarville University. CU claims they did not get all of the information.TVC admits they kept aspects of the Moore situation from the church congregation.
Let me get this straight. Chandler jumped all over Hinkley, releasing all information about her supposed sin, yet kept mum about certain details of Moore. What a surprise.
Perhaps Chandler needs to first”assess” the log in his own eye.
PS I wish CT would give a clearer picture of those they feature. All have fallen short if you get what I mean.
1
I wonder where he got his super duper nifty spiffy narcissist detector? A cereal box?
Seems like it works as well as one might expect judging how long it took for them to kick Driscoll out of Acts 29.
Chandler says they made a shift “seven or eight years ago?” Steve Timmis was only let go two years ago. Sure took a while for that shift to occur…
“Who takes jabs behind an alias?” LOL!! Let’s see..off the top of my head Samuel Clemens – Mark Twain, Eric Blair – George Orwell, Ben Franklin – Silence Dogood.
Plus, I’m surprised that I listened to the whole 2:56 after he started out with the fallacious “shepherd sheep analogy.” In my experience, anyone in church leadership who appeals to such has forgotten that he himself is a sheep; and ends up acting like a “hired hand” (John 10:12-13).
Chandler: “We decided we didn’t want to plant a 22- or 23-year-old who hasn’t spent a significant amount of time working in a church under someone else. We want to plant a 28-year-old guy, a 31-year-old guy, 36-year-old guy more than a 22-year-old who thinks he’s going to fix evangelicalism and has a dynamic preaching gift.”
My response involved throwing my head back and cackling loudly.
For context, I’ve had a solo/senior pastor who was in his late twenties, a senior pastor who was 30, and married my husband (a solo/senior pastor at the time) when he was 32.
I’ve also had a couple of more narcissistic pastors who were in their 40s. And others (not narcissistic) in their 50s and 60s. And a narcissistic elder in his 50s.
What I’m trying to say is, while the age of the younger pastors I’ve had sometimes showed, that’s something that (at least in the one I still know) has mellowed over time.
Narcissism doesn’t.
The men (of any age) I saw pastor well (my husband included) had one thing in common: people who could tell them “no,” either leadership teams and/or congregations. Or wives! Even as senior pastor.
I suppose in that sense they were “under” someone. But I don’t think that’s what Chandler meant.
Do as I say, not as I do…
It wasn’t just A29. Chandler was busy on the Act Like Men conference circuit with Mark Driscoll and James MacDonald right up until the time he kicked him out of A29. He was a featured speaker at the conference in Long Beach when Driscoll famously pulled his stunt outside MacArthur’s conference then lied about it.
It would be comforting if Chandler had ever acknowledged any kind of remorse for being party with bad actors like Driscoll and MacDonald, but that would probably cast his own belligerent style in a negative light.
Matt Chandler said,
“Since that shift has been made, we haven’t seen as much of a problem with narcissism.”
Sounds like he’s trying to weed out Overt narcissism (ie., grandiose or malignant).
He needs to keep an eye out for the Communal Narcissists, too.
The Communal ones love, love, love to do things like volunteer at charities and churches so they can brag on Facebook to all their friends about all the orphans they are helping, but then they go home, where they ignore – or verbally abuse – their wife and kids.
(Narcissism is like ice cream – it comes in different flavors.
You also have your Overt Narcs, your Vulnerable Narcs, and there are several other kinds.
All types of Narcissists care deeply about how they are perceived by the public (so they will put on that nice guy or charming mask),
but, in private, with no eye witnesses, will treat co-workers/ work subordinates/ or their spouse and children like GARBAGE.
Good luck keeping those out, Matt!
Narcissists are very talented at presenting one way to the outside, vs. what their families or subordinates see behind closed doors.)
Narcissist! (always needing to be number 1)
:))
I wonder how much narcissism he thinks is good and acceptable. Sounds like is is satisfied with not us much as they had before, whatever that means.
That was something how he went on about how he was burdened with bad, disease-ridden sheep out on the fringes and I guess that means we should feel sorry for him. Wow. Someone like that should not even try to be a pastor.
Assessing narcissism, a bit beyond the lane of being a pastor. Overreach.
And then there’s the steaks deal…
So pedo criminals at this same pastor’s camp and in his church (marriages) are OK?
Hubris. On multiple fronts. A man propped up on a paper platform, with voice and title and position. Anyone venture to guess how this ends up? A NT church example? Perhaps the so-called “false shepherds” in Ezekiel?
Isn’t that where the wolves hang out?
Sounded like a wolf howling. I was thinking, I would not want someone like that as a pastor, a teacher, a boss, a business partner, or anything. Some people project pure negative energy – it is a downer and stressful just to be in the same room with them.
In my dictionary “vibrant” means something very like “shaky”.
In other news:
Notables born on this day include:
1779 – Peter Mark Roget, English physician, lexicographer, and theologian (d. 1869)
(I like his book, I have a Longmans 1962 ed.)
I stopped listening at “runs 7000 adults”.
I think he meant, ‘attendance runs’, but the tone-deafness of using wording that sounds like the humans are just … cattle. There are better uses of the remaining minutes.
good catch, also Daisy’s observations on ‘flavors’.
Perhaps what is implied here is that the narcissism that is still getting through their filters is not as visibly problematic as the kinds that were previously in view.
—
I do think that there’s a lot of value in ‘apprenticeship’ in ministry. But the apprentices, even when not of bad character themselves, are likely to be shaped into the ‘image’ of the ‘journeyman’ or ‘master’ minister who supervises them. So this one change might not be as effective as claimed.
Totally off target but just for a smile: we had snow in the Ozarks over the weekend. Last night was clear with the wolf moon shining brightly. I stepped outside to enjoy it and a neighbor’s hound was having a high old time baying at the moon. Beautiful sanctuary with the perfect choir. Can I get a Gloria Patri?
Great comment.
I have been thinking about the remorse thing for awhile. It is rare to see an apology from any of them. I guess being a Calvinista means never saying you’re sorry.
Reading through the CT interview, something that stands out is the repeated use of “I hope …” to describe what Acts 29 is or has become.
That strikes me as at least a little troubling. “Aspirational self-descriptions” can be a kind of camouflage. It would be plainer and IMO better to say, if it’s the reality, ‘this is what we want to become, but we’re still on the journey there’. A season of change!
—
Re: MC’s apparent (to my ear) defensiveness about the problem of abusive pastors, I don’t think ‘lumping the good ones in with the bad ones’ can be as large a problem as MC seems to make it. Surely the people who have good pastors can distinguish them from bad. It seems IMO almost a plea to ‘stop talking about the abusers in public; it’s giving everyone a bad name’.
Years ago in Reader’s Digest I read one of the end of the page fillers that they often use. It defined a narcissist, and from my experience as a therapist has proven true:
Narcissist-out of all the people in the world they could have chosen to fall in love with, they chose themselves.
Narcissists, in both pulpit and pew, are drawn to Acts 29 churches… it is a great environment for them to flourish in.
Matt Chandler narcissistically and condescendingly refers to female members of ‘his’ church as “our girls.”
“My husband, overhearing this recording said “The guy needs Valium” in order to tone down his inner “jerk.””
I’m not sure there is enough Valium on the planet to soothe all the inner jerks in New Calvinism. The NeoCal movement has precipitated a pandemic of pulpit schmucks.
Dee,
“I have been thinking about the remorse thing for awhile. It is rare to see an apology from any of them. I guess being a Calvinista means never saying you’re sorry.”
Well there is massive overlap on the Venn diagram of church planters, new Calvinists, and narcissistic (arrogant) pastors.
Chandler has apologized for specifics before, but he completely lacks (so far, from anything I’ve seen) the self-reflection and humility to acknowledge that he hasn’t just been party to domineering or bullying, but is prone to those behaviors.
Based on Chuck DeGroat’s book and other available materials, he doesn’t seem to quite fit the description of full blown NPD. But it is laughable that he would be any kind of authority on spotting narcissists or the devastation caused by them when he has been an accessory to such disaster countless times.
“Chandler says his character was partially shaped by John Piper.”
For how-to-be-a-narcissist, listen to Piper’s interview with Chandler (on YouTube). Part 3 is particularly revealing about Chandler’s view of “Calvinism and Sexual Complementarity” … “I preach to men” … “our girls love it” … etc. The Body of Christ should have never allowed Piper and Chandler to happen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKEpVzHnUw0
“We want to plant a 28-year-old guy, a 31-year-old guy, 36-year-old guy more than a 22-year-old who thinks he’s going to fix evangelicalism and has a dynamic preaching gift.”
I was young and now am old. During my long tenure on earth, I have observed that 22-year-old narcissists grow up to be 28, 31, and 36-year-old narcissists … Chandler is now a 47-year-old narcissist. Narcissism is a sickness of the inner man that can be a lifetime ailment, if not healed by Christ … the New Calvinists don’t talk much about Jesus, so there can be no healing for that bunch.
“Chandler says his character was partially shaped by John Piper.”
Yeah, and it’s showing Matt! Can there be any hope for someone mentored by the Pied Piper?!
Psychology question:
Do narcissists know they are narcissists?
In my career I learned that the people who talk about how busy they are generally are not busy at all but are trying to cover so that no one will either figure it out or give them more work to do.
Burwell Stark,
*I have learned.
Le sigh.
“Perhaps Chandler needs to first ”assess” the log in his own eye.”
There is a bad case of “think-more-highly-of-yourself-than-you-ought” running through the veins of New Calvinism. These guys never get around to assessing their own logs … when you are perfect, you don’t have chunks of wood in your life.
No they don’t, they camp out almost exclusively on Paul.
At the end of that clip he actually suggested that he needs help. It could be that he is subconsciously asking for real help that he cannot ask for any other way. That diatibe is evidence of a deep problem. His elders, friends and family should get help for him. But it would not be to their financial benefit to get him such help.
Narcissists do not know they are narcissistic, whether it is a person with narcissistic tendencies or full-blown Narcissistic Personality Disorder. As they see it, others do not see their obvious “perfection.” The problem always lies with the misperception of them by others.
They wouldn’t dare twist what Jesus said to support their theology. Paul is an easier target, so they perform some crafty eisegesis of his writings thinking ole Paul wouldn’t care.
Yet, 7,000 folks meet each Sunday to hear what he has to say! I’d say the whole bunch is in desperate need of mental and spiritual help. New Calvinism drives everyone crazy after awhile.
Max,
Because narcissism is largely marked by refusing to accept responsibility for one’s actions, they rarely self-identify or seek out help on their own. Or such an individual may not be on the more severe end of the spectrum (perhaps not full blown Narcissistic Personality Disorder).
When confronted, a hardcore narcissist deflects: I’m not a narcissist, you’re just being divisive, you don’t want to follow XYZ in the Bible, or what you’re calling hurtful or manipulative behavior was me responding biblically to your sins (DARVO).
They are good at turning the tables on those who confront them and entirely avoiding any accountability structure they cannot control or at least keep in the dark. It is suggested they are often abused in their youth and do everything in their power, even unconsciously, to avoid ever being in a position of vulnerability again. The best way to keep from being bullied is to be the top bully in the room.
All that said, I think it’s helpful to keep in mind we worship a savior who is in the business of redemption. I just wish most of these pastors saw redemption as taking ownership and making amends, rather than finding a way to hold on.
Indeed! On the other side of genuine repentance, there is genuine redemption available through Christ for ALL people. It’s sad that narcissistic “pastors” are some of the last to see who they really are, confess their sin, and seek God.
Max,
From what I’ve read and heard, narcissism is largely marked by refusing to accept responsibility for one’s actions, so they rarely self-identify or seek out help on their own. Or such an individual may not be on the more severe end of the spectrum (perhaps not full blown Narcissistic Personality Disorder).
My experience is two of the ways they avoid accepting responsibility are 1) turning the tables. E.G., You’re just being divisive, you don’t want to follow the XYZ in the Bible, or you’re just upset because I’m responding biblically to your sin, and 2) Avoiding any accountability structure altogether they cannot dominate or keep in the dark. E.G., they will assent to a plurality of elders, so long as they are seen as the elder brother or father figure, or they will submit to external oversight that is not really present in the church body, or they just go full Calvary Chapel Moses Model so there’s no possible appeal.
I heard a man confront a narcissistic pastor once, telling him that he needed to repent. The “pastor” looked angrily into has face and shouted “Repent of what?!!”
So sorry for all the multiple posts and doxxing myself and all that. I don’t know what’s happening to me. I just posted essentially the same thing without realizing I posted a prior version of it already.
I accept full responsibility for my sins 🙂
Burwell Stark,
Interesting.
Dee and Burwell Stark,
One of the marks of a narcissistic pastor according to DeGroat is “delegates without giving proper authority.” That is, the narcissistic pastor has to give approval for all decisions made outside his own responsibilities.
It is possible he complains about how busy he is because he’s a control freak or workaholic. “You don’t even want to know what I have to deal with”… because if you did know, you’d probably ask why someone else couldn’t do that. Take the audio clip.
Why does he even have to deal with this person? Can’t another pastor or staff member engage with them sufficiently, whether their complaints are merited or unmerited?
Burwell Stark,
I have observed this also…..or “insecurity”…
Remember “diabolical meanings” of The Enemy’s words, My Dear Wormwood.
“Narcissist” has been redefined to mean those pewpeons who object to the Pastor’s boot. The Pastor who is truly worthy of Our Father Below, with a truly delicious ego.
NOWHERE DO WE CORRUPT SO EFFECTIVELY AS AT THE VERY FOOT OF THE ENEMY’S ALTAR!
Like several Jerk Boss CEOs who get in the news regularly.
It’s usually a sign of a pointy-haired boss or a serious micromanaging workaholic headed for an eventual Chapter 13.
Christians seem to have a love affair with Dictatorship.
To the point of Harley Quinn Syndrome.
Not counting all the Telescreens in all the “franchise campuses”…
The thought occurs that spending a lot of time thinking about Paul’s writings and his lived experience would alert one to the danger of becoming conceited on the account of one’s surpassingly great vision for one’s church, which might invite a Divinely provided ‘thorn in the flesh’ as a sanctifying influence.
Just thinking out loud. Do they see themselves in the text?
Headless Unicorn Guy,
I’m not sure when the audio clip was excerpted, but for what it’s worth TVC is supposed to have spun off all of its remote sites into independent churches by now. Ref: https://ministrywatch.com/the-village-church-completes-transition-away-from-multi-site-model/
“and has a dynamic preaching gift”
If these guys have “dynamic preaching gifts,” presumably from God, why do they have to use sermon-prep services or copy some other guy’s sermon off YouTube?
Maybe he means “dynamic acting gift.”
Afterburne on Mon Jan 17, 2022 at 09:58 PM said:
“I wonder where he got his super duper nifty spiffy narcissist detector? A cereal box?
Seems like it works as well as one might expect judging how long it took for them to kick Driscoll out of Acts 29.”
+++++++++++++++++++
maybe it’s one of those specialty item things that come with the male anatomy. like my husband’s… compass.
that doesn’t really work…
Bingo!
“Lead” pastors in their 20s, with “elder” boards of same age … Good Lord! The youth group is running the church!!
“The Gospel is a sweet message and ought to be glad news when it comes to a people. There is no better news a minister can carry than these brought to the shepherds by the angels – ‘Fear not, behold, we bring you glad tidings of great joy to all people: unto you is born in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.’”
(James Durham, Sermon 4 on Isaiah 53:1)
By comparison Mr Chandler’s message is rotten to the core. It’s about Jesus not him!
So Matt Chandler was in his forties before it dawned on him that 22 year olds might not be mature enough to plant a church. So what are you doing to help those churches you did plant with very young leaders???
“In fact, using his own parameters, we should be wary of him in the pulpit since it seems he may have started as a youth pastor as a teen.”
I’ve heard Chandler’s testimony. He wasn’t “called” into ministry … he just sorta fell into it. As I’ve noted before, anyone can have a successful ministry in America if he has a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, a bag of gimmicks, and a working knowledge of the Bible. Chandler is a perfect example of that. He thinks he’s cool, can talk the bones off a chicken and latched onto one of the best gimmicks that ever hit the American church = New Calvinism. In his testimony, he never mentions a spiritual encounter with the Living Christ but refers to a warm and fuzzy feeling he got at a Piper conference that propelled him into ministry.
I think a lot of young folks got swept up into the New Calvinist movement because it has been a rebellion against traditional religion … youngsters like to rebel. They got caught up in the excitement to be part of something new sweeping through the American church. It’s exciting to be a part of restoring the one true church, you know … to restore the “gospel” that the rest of the church has lost over the centuries. The young restless and reformed army was created and spurred on by some old guys (Piper, Mohler, Dever, etc.) who would have never had a platform otherwise, but who have brilliantly used the young whippersnappers to help build their kingdom, as well as their pocketbooks (books, conferences, etc.). When the New Calvinist bubble breaks (it will) the old guys will be the only ones which benefited, while the youngsters will be left confused and disillusioned; many will never to try religion again. That’s what the devil does to you when he’s done with you.
… may be in over their head, beyond their level of competency, and thus busy spinning their wheels going nowhere fast as they try to figure out what they are doing. In motion and clueless.
Happened before, in the Jesus People movement of the early Seventies.
The Fellowship(TM) that messed up my head back then was entirely run by “elders” in their early to mid-20s with no qualifications except “Bible!” No actual Cult Leader Unless you count an absentee Hal Lindsay), but Groupthink worked just as well. Some other survivors after I left in ’76 ended up having to be forcibly deprogrammed.
Ava Aaronson,
Or the parents of young children.
Max,
Rarely. They think others around them are the ones with the problems.
Some of them may develop other conditions, such as anxiety or depression, or, as they age, they start noticing negative patterns in their relationships, which then causes them to see a psychologist for those things, who may then diagnose them as being NPD or as being on the spectrum.
There’s no definitive explanation as to why some turn into narcissists… with some, it’s due to childhood abuse or neglect, with others, it’s thought it’s due to over indulgence by the parents (the kid never hears “no,” is constantly told how special he is, etc)
It’s very resistant to treatment.
Chandler is due to speak with Todd White and Azuza now leaders this year. He will be at Passion 2022. In February he will join a Kansas city Prophet movement: The Send lead pastor Summit. Well I read that he is also in the bussiness of steak: Relevant magazine. Everywhere this guy! So sad and sickening.
As I have aged and repented of many of my enthusiastic youthful opinions, the thought has occurred to me that we don’t live long enough to be able to become ‘wise’ before we become ‘responsible.’ And a major consequence of this is that each generation repeats many of the mistakes of its predecessors. One sees this very obviously in the lives of individuals, but I think it happens even at civilizational level (for example how the public health lessons of the 1918-1922 pandemic were substantially lost by the time the 2019-20?? pandemic began).
I don’t know if there’s a way out of this. Perhaps if ‘character formation’ were the top priority in our education of the young we could gradually bootstrap ourselves up. But investment in character formation has a very long payoff schedule — and we don’t live very long; it’s much easier and seemingly higher ‘return’ to invest primarily in skills.
What is the Kansas City Prophet movement? I don’t feel like looking it up and getting bogged down in a lot of details and hocus-pocus.
Total length 2:56. I made 4:20 something of the July 2019 clip. I was utterly disgusted at Father George sniggering and sneering about the earth tremor. I’m glad I didn’t catch the next bit they were sniggering about (thank you to those who commented about it). Ex Rev Ashenden was supportive of Graystone but not Lines. A prominent theologian has protested about Graystone’s reference to theologies so that’s my next research project.
If Rev Chandler wants to be rid of the people he complains of this time round, he should walk out and give himself a peaceful life shelf stacking or courier driving (till he gets pinged). I’m seriously worried about the millions of congregants who were “converted” or “evangelised” into something they themselves can’t walk out of – or did they inherit it from uncritical grandparents, like the Long family? I’m also ultra petrified about all those “shady umbrella” groups.
Of a different kind than currently prevalent (molestation) yes. Together with reintroducing background information and actual logic. I also caught up with some bad comments of a former frequent commenter. The “prophetic” doesn’t consist in putting ideas in people’s minds (God doesn’t play that game). The “prophetic” consists in shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.
They were the people who introduced the idea that the fivefold are within the elite only and not us all in intelligent coordination.
In a church we attended more than 20 years ago, the seasoned and reasoned pastor pulled out a letter he received. It had the words “IDIOT” written in large letters and nothing else. The pastor said he welcomes feedback but he had learned long ago not to read unsigned letters. He said this letter stood out to him because it was the only time he had ever received a letter with only a signature. He was calm about it and never went into a rant. The fact that MC gets so worked up over anonymous feedback is a huge problem. He should be able to just disregard it and move on.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Exactly…. Further, when you are in the public eye, stuff like this is normal…. Except you will get “negative stuff” move on…
Jeffrey Chalmers,
Accept, and Except!
The new normal is the old abnormal. The American church is a mess on several fronts. Counterfeit ministers and ministries are flourishing. The average churchgoer is rapidly losing track of what genuine Church is supposed to look like. It would do believers well to sit down and reflect on what church is and what church isn’t according to Scripture … and then compare it with what they’ve joined themselves to. If the scales tip the wrong way, get out!
Jacob on Wed Jan 19, 2022 at 05:35 AM said:
You can find a bit about them here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic-Prophetic_Movement
The Kansas City Prophets?!! Joining that group would be strange, even for Chandler! Perhaps, it’s another prophetic movement other than the Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, Paul Cain thing I’m thinking about … those guys have been out there on a weird fringe for years. There has been some movement within NeoCal ranks to “Charismatic Calvinism” … Driscoll has drifted that direction. Do you have a link to where you saw Chandler connecting to the KC Prophet movement?
Basketball team, right?
RANT: Speaking of things Chandler hasn’t received training in, I really wish some of these guys would learn the art of brevity. Strunk and White’s “omit needless words” and all that. Or CS Lewis’ recommendation that writing be “simple, clear, concrete, and jargon-free.” The same goes for public speaking, including sermons.
Rod Rosenbladt often says (said?) that “nobody gets saved after 25 minutes.”
I will look at the sermon length that some of these “dudebros” regularly attain and think of the Walrus’ statement: The time has come to talk of many things. The Walrus and the Carpenter.
Some of these preachers would benefit from John Wayne’s “art of brevity.” The ole cowboy once said “Talk low, talk slow, and don’t say too much.”
Scripture says:
“Do not be quick to speak with your mouth,
nor let your heart be hasty to utter a word
before God.
For God is in heaven,
and you are on the earth;
therefore may your words be few”
(Ecclesiastes 5:2)
I don’t mind preachers who preach long sermons if they have something to say. However, I haven’t seen one of those in New Calvinist ranks.
Max,
I also like the instructions given by JC on how we should pray….
“If you want me to give you a two-hour presentation, I am ready today. If you want only a five-minute speech, it will take me two weeks to prepare.”
— Mark Twain
Ken F (aka Tweed),
True story. However, we’re frequently told that the dudebros spend the most of their time in sermon preparation and vision casting, which raises the question: just how much time do they need to prepare a sermon of reasonable length? Perhaps time management is another deficiency that should be addressed.
…spend
themost of their time…Ken F (aka Tweed),
That story is Readers Digest worthy.
Samuel Conner,
Maybe this is another one of those “consequences of living in a fallen world.” But in all seriousness, you raise an excellent question.
Their writing sux too.
Wade in for 3000 words, and they still haven’t said a gall-dang thing.
All these years later I remember that, but I don’t remember the sermon.
Theirs or ours? If they were not narcissists they might realize how badly they are wasting everyone’s time. Maybe they think enduring their preaching is part of the suffering we all must endure to become Christlike.
No it wouldn’t. Positioning is what is going on. In my church “hopping” I saw the associates of some team up with the identical associates of others, believe you me. Lording it over the small ones who aren’t allowed priesthood, competence, prerogative, subsidiarity, discernment, belief or prayer like my Bible says we are. Real ecumenism is solely at pew not podium level.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Ha. Yes. But I had their time management in mind.
I don’t believe this is what the Apostle Paul had in mind when he wrote about the foolishness of preaching. Lol. Your comment led me to associate overly-long and bloviated sermons with the stations of the cross. So, “sitting under” sermons like these are a Protestant pilgrimage? Our El Camino de Santiago? That requires more thinking on my part.
New Calvinist pulpits are scared to death that folks in the pew will read their Bibles and discover the truth about soul competency and priesthood of ‘the’ believer! Yep, they don’t want you to know that you are free in Christ and that every believer is in the ministry … the pulpit has no corner on the market on priesthood … the pulpit has no control over your soul.
well, no, not really . . . . take a look at comments left on obituary notices and you can spot the ‘narcissists’ by how many ‘I’, ‘me’, ‘my’ phrases are written by ‘friends’ of the deceased. It’s really quite remarkable, if it wasn’t so sad
but these folks really have no clue.
I’m so old that I remember when public school teachers led prayer and Bible studies. We were visiting a school one time to hear our daughter perform in a musical. My wife struck up a conversation with a lady next to us. When I returned from the bathroom, I saw her pointing to a place on the wall and telling my wife “That’s where the Ten Commandments used to hang.” Upon hearing that, I said “Well, excuse me, but I just returned from the boys room and there’s a condom machine hanging on the wall there now!”
Instead of calling is New-Calvinism, maybe we should call it New-Self-Flagellation.
Oh, man. I’ve been volunteering at my daughter’s Christian preschool while they are short-staffed. The teachers pray every morning before kids come in. I have no doubt they are sincere and heartfelt, but it vacillates between being a sermonette or being a church newsletter. I don’t even try to compete.
Had I become a high powered attorney instead of where life’s trajectory landed me, I would have argued for them in court when the ACLU got their undies in a dither over it.
Congress has made no law respecting the establishment of a religion and I would not have stood by while a small minority of ideologues prevented them (teachers and kids) from practicing theirs.
It didn’t end well for Madalyn Murray O’Hair who led the charge to remove prayer from public schools. She was murdered by a work colleague, her body dismembered and burned, and buried in a shallow grave in Texas. When the devil is done with you, he’s done with you.
With some of these preachers, More like Flagellantes than Pilgrims.
It’s not just Lawyers who can talk for hours and not say a single thing.
Isn’t that the exact same backstory of church history as the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnsesss, Moonies, Branch Davidians, People’s Temple, etc?