Guess Who? These guys surrounded CJ Mahaney one year after he was not allowed to come to T$G due to some sex abuse coverup allegations. Then, in 2014, they let him back. Ligon Duncan’s brother gleefully posted this picture. I’ll post the names in the comments if you don’t write your answers in the comments. Due to their error when it came to Mahaney (years and years worth,) I no longer trust any of these guys.
“Very small errors in our understanding of the Gospel can result in very big problems.” -C.J. Mahaney
How many of you know what the name T4G, sometimes called Together for the Gospel really means? The number 4 is supposed to recall the 4 best buddies who founded this group. That is CJ Mahaney, Al Mohler, Ligon Duncan, and Mark Dever. In fact, Dever was enamored of Mahaney and I believe he was responsible for introducing him to the others. This conference was founded on the beliefs and practices of these guys.
Hansen, who rose to fame in the Reformed resurgence, wrote his book, Young Restless and Reformed. of course he wrote about the incredible, positive influence of such men like Mark Driscoll, John Piper, Al Mohler, CJ Mahaney, etc. Hansen was adept at describing the resurgence but, in my opinion, he dropped the ball. His tone hasn’t changed much. Despite the internationally spectacular fall of CJ Mahaney and Mark Driscoll, Hansen still sounded starry-eyed as he describes the last T4G in The Final T4G posted, of course, at The Gospel Coalition which he says is different than T4G.
Many have confused T4G with The Gospel Coalition (TGC), as if they were searching for ballpoint pens and couldn’t tell the difference between Office Depot or OfficeMax. In other words, the confusion is understandable. At one point, Mohler, Mahaney, Dever, and Duncan all served on TGC’s leadership Council.
The monetary aspect
TGC and T4G are the same despite Hansen’s attempt to make T4G just a pastors conference. In that respect, there is a difference. Women, who cannot be pastors, are barred from the conference by virtue of their gender. Hansen glorified the event as:
T4G stayed focused on stocking pastors’ libraries with massive book giveaways.
However, back in 2012, we questioned whether or not this conference was merely an altruistic event to spread Reformed theology to pastors and bunches of seminary students. We weren’t so sure then and we are certainly not so sure now. We used to call it T$G.
Back in 2004, Chris Hansen of Dateline did an undercover investigation of this AMWAY kingpin who hails from my area. It was appropriately called “In Pursuit of the Almighty Dollar”. Here is the transcript (ed. updated link). The bottom line of this investigation was that these leaders perched atop their pyramids make most of their money fromconference fees, books, and other sales tools.
As far as I can determine, the conference fees charged for T4G are comparable to those charged by AMWAY kingpins. And it’s obvious that there are a ton of books sold at Together for the Gospel. What happens to all that cash collected from conference fees and book sales? We are talking millions of dollars. Yes, I know that there is a substantial charge for renting the facility, but…
Mahaney explained that mostly pastors attend T4G. By that I’m sure he also meant future pastors, as in seminary students (who attend at a reduced rate). Have you ever thought about who is paying for these pastors to attend T4G? Conference fees, hotel and food costs, as well as transportation? My guess is that the churches are paying all of these expenses. I wonder if church members even know that their pastor is attending this conference.
Here are two tweets commenting on the (sotto voice, with tears held back) final T4G.
The CJ Mahaney connection
Mahaney was pivotal in helping this conference. And the theodudebros, including Hansen, ate it up. Almost googly-eyed he describes the first T4G.
C. J. Mahaney’s charismatic Calvinism and buoyant attitude kept the mood light and familiar.
Hansen seems like he can barely mention the abuse factor. He certainly didn’t name Mahaney but neither did Dever or Duncan who continues to be silent on the matter. Mohler finally, was dragged kicking and screaming, to finally disavow Mahaney’s actions.
Not everyone will mourn T4G, no stranger to conflict in the last 15 years. These controversies have forced many pastors to reckon with the church’s response to abuse, to recall one example. Long after the final T4G, we’ll still struggle to discern fact from fiction as we stand on the outside of complex church dynamics, including those involving our friends. Social media will demand we judge these conflicts nevertheless. Hopefully the result will be safer churches that combat abuse in every form.
For those of you who have any doubts about the vast nature of the abuse at Sovereign Grace, of which Mahaney was the Captain, read The Sex-Abuse Scandal That Devastated a Suburban Megachurch
Still, Hansen couldn’t choke it out. Mahaney was integral to T4G and The Gospel Coalition. Aren’t you glad that Hansen had such a wonderful time, standing shoulder to shoulder with the brothers, singing hymns, and giggling at Mahaney’s inevitable and boring athletic jokes? T4G’s big boys heaped scorn on the victims of SGM. You can read about it here. I believe that they defended their good buddy since he was vital to the *ministry* of T4G.
I have little hope for those who hung on to the very last. Even Al Mohler didn’t show for the grand finale. Of course, CJ wasn’t there. Even though I believe that Dever and Duncan, along with John Piper who was an *important* speaker, still quietly support their old buddy.
Mark Driscoll and T4G
Driscoll’s close affiliation with this group is not mentioned by Hansen. In 2016, TWW wrote Together for the Gospel – Who Is REALLY Being Worshipped? Boy, did these boys ever love the brash Driscoll along with the other speakers. Many of them chose to mimic his style and his control with disastrous results. Driscoll went out with a bang yet Hansen will not mention the personality cult that was birthed in that movement. Instead, he discussed that he lost friends.
Hansen has lost dozens of friends who used to be gung ho on the T4G front.
He said:
Recently, while browsing through my contact list from nearly 20 years in professional ministry, I had to pause due to discouragement. Dozens and dozens of names—nearly half my list—wouldn’t welcome any message from me. They had disavowed Christianity or at least Reformed theology. Or committed suicide. Or changed their political views. Or were convinced that I’d changed mine. In ministry you’re always losing friends. You don’t always learn why.
If they were your friends, you ought to figure out why. If someone has disavowed Reformed theology, especially the type espoused at T4G, one shouldn’t be surprised. Many of my Reformed friends of the presbyterian persuasion claim that the Reformed theology taught by T4G/TGC is not truly Reformed. Perhaps some of them learned this.
Perhaps others began to see through the celebrity worship and realize that some of the “Reformed” teachings led to harsh discipline which hurt many people as I have documented since I began writing this blog. Perhaps some of them woke up. It is disturbing to me to notice that Hansen puts disavowing Christianity in the same sentence as disavowing Reformed theology. That was always hidden in the background of this conference. This post The troubling trends in America’s ‘Calvinist revival’discussed some of these problems.
One of the markers of the neo-Calvinist movement is isolationism. My Reformed friends consume Calvinist blogs and Calvinist books, attend Calvinist conferences, and join Calvinist churches with Calvinist preachers. They rarely learn from or engage with those outside their tradition. (My feeling is that this trend is less prevalent among leaders than the average followers.)
…An illuminating example of this might be the recent glut of Mark Driscoll controversies—from sexist comments to charges of plagiarism to proof that he bought his way onto the New York Times bestsellers list using ministry monies. Leaders in the movement were effectively mum until a select few broke the silence of late. The first accusations of Driscoll plagiarizing were revealed on November 21st, but the first truly critical response posted by neo-Calvinist mega-blog, The Gospel Coalition, trickles out on December 18th. One might compare this with the response to Rob Bell’s book “Love Wins” that was in full bloom before the YouTube trailer finished buffering.
…This is often seen in the way neo-Calvinists speak as if they are the arbiters of the term “gospel.” Search the term “gospel” on the web site of the Reformed publisher Crossway and you’ll see what I mean. Or listen to the way some neo-Calvinist leaders frame every ethical issue of the day, not as a difference of opinion among Christians of mutual goodwill, but rather an affront to the gospel itself.
“The perspective of many today is that if you aren’t a Calvinist, you don’t really have a grasp of the gospel,” Olson says.
Finally…
As for the political stuff he discussed, I am going to discuss that along with a fascinating article that came out in the Atlantic.
From left to right, many pastors find more in common with even unbelievers who share their political and cultural assumptions than with believers who affirm the same doctrine. Allegiance to parties and politicians obscures friendships in the fog of suspicion that has overtaken so much of the American church
I do not believe that this crowd welcomes those of us looking in. Some of the nastiest emails that I have received were from those who were celebrity-driven within the movement. The language they used, which appeared to mimic Driscoll, was astonishing. I was told I would be sued when merely describing what I saw and what they said or did. Apparently, honesty is not much valued in the T4G theodudebros.
I was right about Mahaney and I was right about Driscoll. I have written about them since I started in 2009. I believe I am also right about Dever. Todd was also right about Dever and Mahaney. He even attended a couple of their related churches. Hansen is unable to state the obvious failure of his beloved T4G. So permit me a moment of celebration because I survived their nonsense.
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“How many of you know what the name T4G, sometimes called Together for the Gospel really means? The number 4 is supposed to recall the 4 best buddies who founded this group. That is CJ Mahaney, Al Mohler, Ligon Duncan, and Mark Dever.”
Mohler’s wife called the Fab Four “Al’s Little Playgroup” … that still creeps me out!
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“We Outlasted T4G!!!!!” (Dee)
“If this teaching or movement is merely human it will collapse of its own accord. But if it should be from God you cannot defeat them” (Acts 5:38-39 Phillips)
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Amen
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“we questioned whether or not this conference was merely an altruistic event to spread Reformed theology to pastors and bunches of seminary students”
Anyone who witnessed the militancy of the young Al Mohler in the early 1990s to restore the gospel (= Calvinism) to the SBC knew he was serious about it! His mission to Calvinize the denomination has largely been accomplished. All SBC entities (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, church planting program, and a growing number of church takeovers) are now under NeoCal leadership – thanks to Mohler and his band of Mohlerites.
He articulated his passion for the cause in a T4G video in the early days of the NeoCal movement:
“Where else are they gonna go? I mean, what options are there? If you’re a theologically minded, deeply convictional young evangelical, if you’re committed to the gospel and you want to see the nations rejoice in the name of Christ, if you want to see gospel-built and structured and committed churches, your theology is just gonna end up basically being Reformed, basically being something like this New Calvinism or you’re gonna have to invent some other label for what’s just gonna be the same thing. There just are not options out there. And that’s something that I think frustrates some people. But when I am asked about the New Calvinism, I will say just basically, where else are they gonna go? Who else is gonna answer the questions? Where else will they find the resources they need? And where else are they gonna connect? This is a generation that understands, they want to say the same thing Paul said. They want to stand with the Apostles. They want to stand with old, dead people. And they know they are going to have to if they are going to preach and teach the truth.”
No options out there? Where else are they gonna go? The only option to preach and teach the truth?! The arrogance of this bunch reached Biblical proportion as they disrupted the American church.
IMO, there was more than $ on the minds of at least some of the Fab Four … it was all about promoting reformed theology to the ends of the earth as the ‘only’ expression of truth (at least to the ends of the American church).
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“Recently, while browsing through my contact list from nearly 20 years in professional ministry,” -Collin Hansen
“We pastors are being killed by the professionalizing of the pastoral ministry. The mentality of the professional is not the mentality of the prophet. … The professionalization of the ministry is a constant threat to the offense of the gospel.” John Piper, “Brothers, We are Not Professionals, A Plea to Pastors for Radical Ministry”
“May the Lord grant, by the power of his grace, that we would be able to join John is his prayer: “Thank You for protecting me for all these years from the deadening effects of professionalization.” -Ligon Duncan
Perhaps T4G deciding to end it after their April conference is a partial answer to Piper and Duncan’s prayer.
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Max,
You got a couple of them correct. Mark Dever is not in the picture alhtough he was present. Al is #1, Ligon is #2, Mahaney is #5.
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Jeffrey J Chalmers,
I almost put on the video “Can’t touch this” but I thought it might be too much.
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Todd Wilhelm,
Good one.
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It would be an interesting research project to list all the names of those who have served on the Council of TGC.
CJ Mahaney
Joshua Harris
Thabiti Anyabwile
Tullian Tchividjian
James MacDonald
Mark Driscoll…
And let’s not forget the hundreds? thousands? of individuals (me included) who were blocked from TGC’s Twitter site for tweeting #IstandwithSGMvictims.
Or the book TGC published, “Entrusted with the Gospel,”
“Stemming from the coalition’s 2009 National Conference and edited by D.A. Carson, this book explores the great responsibility of being entrusted with the gospel. Through six sermons expositing 2 Timothy, John Piper, Phil Ryken, Mark Driscoll, Edward Copeland, Bryan Chapell, and Ligon Duncan model faithful preaching rooted in Scripture.”
Talk about a short shelf-life!
Additionally, you could purchase a Conference DVD from 2009 which included the messages from those listed above, “but also others others that are not expositions of 2 Timothy. So you’ll hear from the previously mentioned pastors but also Tim Keller, C.J. Mahaney, Ajith Fernando, and Josh Harris on “living the vision of 2 Timothy.” They discuss gospel-faithful mission, counterfeit gods, and ministering in a church-hopping society.”
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Sad…. The premise of Piper’s “we are not professionals“ book is actually dead on.
Even though I am in the Presbyterian camp of being Calvinist before it was cool, I also got drawn into a lot of the hype. It was fun when it became cool. I can see how younger Christians were drawn in and these guys tweaked it to appeal to a younger audience. I think part of it was that we were all looking for a conservative response to some liberal advances.
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George,
How do you deal with a person who is conservative in her theology but is not Reformed?
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But why? What in the world were you told about liberal advances? What is a liberal advance anyway? There is always a problem when we look for an answer/response to a “fear” that is created.
Should we not instead simply be doing what we are called to do as Christians. Jesus never called us to fight cultural wars or take over political parties in order to impart Christ to the world. That wasn’t his way or purpose according to what I see in Scripture.
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The other person is Jonny Mac
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Bridget,
Yup.. I am SO sick of Christianity mixed with politics…
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Herein lies a misunderstanding of conservative Christianity. Conservative belief and practice is not confined to Calvinism. Indeed, the majority of conservative believers in the Body of Christ worldwide are non-Calvinists! The New Calvinists got this wrong, with a lot of other things.
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“these guys” will pay a price for leading a multitude of young believers down the wrong road … “these guys” certainly have a passion, but it is a misplaced passion, the results of which will impact the American church negatively for years through the “ministry” of their followers
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I see no calling of theo-politicians in Scripture
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John MacArthur just never seemed to fit with the NeoCal crowd … he was and is an old guard classical Calvinist … the method and message of New Calvinism just ain’t his cup of tea
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From left to right: Mohler, MDeLong. (sp?), Burns/Anbwile (sp?), Piper, Mahoney, DeYoung.
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MacArthur. Not sure what happened there.
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George,
Other than the phoniness of virtue signaling, Jesus and His teachings are not great politics, either side of the aisle.
Love God, love your neighbor as yourself, with particular attention to widows and orphans, neither makes money nor wins votes.
Jesus died alone with nothing … except the salvation of all humankind for Eternity.
Politics building constituencies and churches building dynasties contrast with the Eternal goals of our Lord saving souls and transforming the heart of persons, one at a time.
“Go therefore and make disciples” is not Go therefore and make money while assembling thousands before a pulpit in a megachurch.
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George,
“It was fun when it became cool.”
++++++++++++++++++++
when a conference about “togethernness” and “The Gospel” means not women, well, it doesn’t sound cool to me at all.
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George,
You seem to have missed the point entirely, possibly purposely, but who knows. I’ll give you the benefit and assume you didn’t miss the point, but simply chose not to respond to it.
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Strike one.
Fascist dictatorship: Strike two.
Abusive, false authority: Strike three.
We could probabably count enough strikes against these guys for them to lose the whole ball game, without ever getting a man on base.
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I don’t think that whole rogues gallery in the pic up-top realizes that their shtick is done for.
For a musical accompaniment, I would suggest the bluesy guitar lament played by Jimi Hendrix at the close of the Woodstock festival (1969).
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Big Al Mohler doesn’t even consider people who aren’t married with kids as human.
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Anyone ever read the Cambridge Declaration? It’s a great document. One of the signatories was Al Mohler.
I still remember one of the most important parts of the CD:
“We deny that the conscience of a Christian should be bound by anything other than the Word of God”.
Great Calvinist stuff.
About ten years after that (mid 2000s), Al Mohler got into a conversation with others in the SBC about alcohol. He basically stated that any Baptist pastor who drinks alcohol will not find a place within the SBC.
Now while I “get” the importance of moving slowly within a denomination (or convention) to get things right, Al Mohler was someone I believed I could trust. After all, he was a signatory to the Cambridge Declaration.
The Bible’s teaching on alcohol is simple: It’s okay to drink alcohol; you don’t have to if you don’t want to; but if you do drink, don’t get drunk. Easy.
But Al decided to use his position to bind the conscience of believers with something else other than the word of God.
And then there were more pronouncements from Big Al: Couples who didn’t have children were selfish and sinful. And the worst one? It’s okay to torture terrorist suspects. The latter was in the context of the Abu Ghraib prisoner torture.
So I’ve not been an Al fan for at least 15 years. All this other stuff about ignoring abuse seems to be par for the course. By their deeds you shall know them. etc
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If you look at the photograph at the top of this artice (https://religionnews.com/2021/06/18/albert-mohlers-darkest-hour/ ), you will see that the fun has ended: that is an image of a defeated leader if ever there was one.
The revolution that swept him to the top was different from what he thought it was: not an army of disciplined Calvinist cavalrymen, but a populist horde of pitchfork-wielding peasants who – in the end – turned against him for not being sufficiently populist.
It didn’t matter that he embraced a lot of things publicly that he didn’t really believe (like YEC – he’s much too well-educated to fall for that), he was still suspected of being insufficiently “like us”.
Every revolution eats its children.
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We have a winner!!!!!! I even made a mistake.
Mohler, MacArthur, Thabiti Anyabwile, Piper, Mahaney Kevin DeYoung.
Well done, good an faithful TWW reader!!!
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Don’t you know that only those created in the direct image of God are welcome at T4G … thus, men only.
“Man is the image of God directly, woman is the image of God only through the man … It may be best to understand the original creation of male and female as one in which the male was made in the image of God in a direct, unmediated and unilateral fashion, while the female was made image of God through the man and hence in a indirect, mediated and derivative fashion.” (Bruce Ware)
Derivatives not welcome at a dudebro conference!
Yep, it’s high time for T4G, New Calvinism, and its tribe of false prophets to go.
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Gus,
Good comment. I remember reading that article. Mohler had said that yECwas going to be his emphasis in a coming year around that time. It never happened.
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Neil Cameron (One Salient Oversight),
Thank you for your god comment. It was so infomrative. I didn’t remeber he said that about torture.
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But “Where else are they gonna go? I mean, what options are there?”
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Sounds like a good start for stained-glass windows in a NeoCal Hall of Fame at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (ground zero for New Calvinism). I wonder if anyone has ever done anything like that before? 🙂
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The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived.
A lot of good folks fell for Mohler’s deception, Neil. He’s a slick one. But, God forgives when our eyes are open to truth. Hoping for a pandemic of repentance in New Calvinist ranks.
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Max,
🙂
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Applies elsewhere, too. Apt observation.
Church as mob, not disciples. Mob chose Barabbas, and sent Jesus to be executed.
Mob created Golden Calf.
Mob threw Joseph in a well.
Mob wanted a king.
Mobs then and now.
How many megachurches are shiny mobs with a Good Look, but not disciples?
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Max,
I’ve read Ware’s statement several times, and every time, it has creeped me out. I have this visualization of God taking a bone marrow sample from man’s rib with a big ole needle, and cooking woman up in a Petri dish!
I wonder if Ware believes that women have souls?
I would like to hear Ware give a little comparison/contrast talk on why man was made from dirt, while woman wasn’t …….. Why the human male was the only creature God made from dirt……
Hmmmmm.
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The reason why? A move toward Liberal Theology always ends up deyning verities of the faithj, like the Virgin Birth, Deity of Christ, Inspiration of Scripture, Substiutionary Atonement, Second Coming. It has nothing to do with Politics.
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Also, it is funny that the world has dropped the pursuit of CJ Mahaney as far as a coverup of sexual abuse, but Brent Detweiler won’t. And you won’t. I read all of Brent’s documentation. CJ Mahaney is not at fault for the sexual abuse, nor did he cover it up. This all started because CJ would not bow to Brent’s ideas of how accountability worked years and years ago, and his little ego was hurt. So he set off on a years long journey of following Mahaney around and trying to destroy him. CJ apologized for his wrongs way back at the beginning to Detweiler, but Brent wanted some kind of public flogging, maybe in order to make him look like some super spiritual knight in shining armor. But brent just looks like a whiney crybaby. Sorry. And yes, I reead all 600 plus pages of Brent’s weak, whiny documentation.
Yes, I am a personal friend of John Piper.
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There’s an unwritten playbook in Christian “ministry” … lay low long enough and the pew will forget the sins of the pulpit.
Unrepentant comebacks are common (Mahaney, Driscoll, Tullian, etc.)
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Now that you mention it, and I never noticed until now, that all other life forms were called into existence with no mention of their composition.
Adam was the only creature in which mention is made of the material used to assemble him; mud, dirt, dust of the Earth.
When looked at from that angle, Woman underwent a double refinement, which in many ways can imply a superior concoction, much in the same way titanium is extracted from raw ore.
I would never expect Ware to even consider that angle, because he and other ‘complementarians’ must uphold an ideology (gender roles) which they fervently believe is taught by Scripture.
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You have listed five topics of huge complexity, not at all sharply divided between liberal and conservative. People are allowed to use their God-given minds to think about these topics, study them, grapple with doubts, and disagree.
Labels stop the thought process… but how did those interrupted thoughts form anyway? What could possibly be the harm in thinking further?
Be not afraid.
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I wonder if any New Calvinist dudebro believes that?! At least a soul equal to theirs.
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‘You have heard that it was said, “You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy.” But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax-collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.’
—Matthew 5:43-48
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Oh my! (chuckle)
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Max, he just had to let us at TWW know that. LOL
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Bob M: Yes, I am a personal friend of John Piper.
How nice… But I can do you one better. I’m a friend of some of the victims and I believe them.
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I wonder how many SBC pastors believe that women have a soul equal to theirs?
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dee,
Oh, you know that Mahaney covered this up? Or is it just Detwiler’s opinion that you believe. If he had proof, Mahaney would have been arrested.
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Yeah, especially the new generation of SBC pastors … the Calvinistas.
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dee,
Sounds like he’s also a personal friend of C.J. Mahaney.
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Maybe he is trolling?
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Oh My! (chuckle)
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Alright, alright, alright! What did I win? 😀
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Max,
Here’s how Matt Schmucker describes it:
Who should come to T4G and why should he come?
“All are welcome. Men. Women. Children. I haven’t met a category of people who didn’t greatly benefit from all that takes place at T4G.
However, it is a conference that is aimed at pastors and church leaders.
The talks are theological and intelligent. We are not aiming for the masses with a lowest common denominator approach.
We want to challenge, equip, and encourage the pastor/elder in his work.”
.
.
Oh, how i love it when I don’t exist outside of the male pronoun.
And, my knees start knockin’ when I am referred to as the lowest common denominator who would naturally be at a loss with things that are theological and intelligent.
https://www.challies.com/interviews/should-you-go-to-t4g/
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Is it too early to insert “(pbuh)” after his name?
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I don’t recall Jesus requiring his disciples to sign on to any of your points above. What did Jesus require of his disciples? I’ll let you figure that out.
What if a person signs on to all of your points but one yet still follows Jesus’ instructions in the NT? Do you deem them non-Christian? Jesus followers turned the Roman Empire upside down by loving their enemies and following His instructions. It’s too bad the politicalization of Christianity under Constantine changed what Jesus instructed.
I disagree that it (the fear of Liberal Theology) has nothing to do with politics. It has ‘ ‘everything’ to do with politics. If you can’t see what is being created in most Evangelical Churches (around politics) because of fear of anything “Liberal,” then you don’t have eyes to see.
On CJ Mahaney . . . the investigations and law suits didn’t proceed because of the statute of limitation laws, not because he was judged innocent or guilty. There is a world of difference.
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Bob M,
“A move toward Liberal Theology always ends up deyning verities of the faith”
Friend,
“Labels stop the thought process… but how did those interrupted thoughts form anyway? What could possibly be the harm in thinking further?”
+++++++++++++++++++++
Those interrupted thoughts were formed because of being impressionable, easily led by scare tactics promoted by those who want to consolidate power for themselves by creating in-groups and out-groups.
Such labels (“Liberal!”) destroy relationships, careers, ruin lives, and lead to flame throwing and destruction of property.
.
.
Ralph H. Elliott, head of the Old Testament and Hebrew Department, Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary from 1958 –1962
“Those who claimed they were the most orthodox Christians were the most bitter and ugly in their attitude….. my family are the ones who really suffered. We received threatening telephone calls. And once, explosives were thrown on our front porch. Damaging the door. For a while, the police had to escort our children home from public school.”
https://etd.library.vanderbilt.edu//available/etd-07232008-000207/unrestricted/Campbell-Reed+Dissertation7-24-08.pdf
https://books.google.com/books?id=c7A0WVhEnS8C&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=baptist+professor+book+genesis+not+literal+1960s&source=bl&ots=fwnBKMyVl7&sig=-Or1OAAmy-u2YdBz5NHBPSMOV8g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiLvN6xsZHMAhUL0mMKHcYhCVEQ6AEIOTAE#v=onepage&q=baptist%20professor%20book%20genesis%20not%20literal%201960s&f=false
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elastigirl,
So, I guess I’d better put my Masters in theology from a reputable Christian university away? Sheesh!
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Bob M,
The doctrinal points you mention – from which you omit Holy Spirit, given in more fulness once the disciples repented of influence seeking – favour humane policy and not denominational lockstep. You have admitted theirs had been newly set up with ambiguities around accountability. What’s so important about the world’s loss of interest? Remind me what job in it Mahaney held: was he senior to Morales and the other documented misdoers? Did Detwiler misteach all these people their actual shaky teachings?
I remember those days and once Jim Jones and Paul VI had nominally fallen out of fashion we had no models but the images of JP II and Pat Robertson. McLuhan warned against using media for influence getting. I’ve personal experience in pincer movements. I’ve also researched the antecedents when in 1946 the world was spiritually dedicated to commercial institutions by a leader under the power of the future Paul VI, following which the takeover by unbelieving theologians stepped up from around 1954. The churches hadn’t learned lateral thinking (re prayer) after their tactical “defeats” of the 1920s.
I’ve watched with increasing grief as acquaintances – including Anglicans – shrivelled before the intensity of personages featuring, whose grip on the doctrinal points you do list is tenuous because of those things.
It’s very good that you bear friendship, a great many people don’t have that.
Bridget,
As much as by Constantine, bad influence was borne by Constantius II, Theodosius, some French and German kings / emperors, Spain’s “catholic monarchs”, Henry VIII, Charles I and manipulators like the “Knights of Christ” and Loyola. There were also temptations in colonies and pocket handkerchief states. In the last 3 years my pincer movement associates have achieved a particularly evil major move of the kind.
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More like (PHHN) – Praise His Holy Name!
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Hey, I’m selling palm frond futures. Let me know if you want in on the action.
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As I’ve said before, the arrogance in the New Calvinist tribe has reached Biblical proportion!
On the other hand, Paul brought the Gospel down to the “lowest common denominator”:
“I did not come equipped with any brilliance of speech or intellect. You may as well know now that it was my secret determination to concentrate entirely on Jesus Christ and the fact of his death upon the cross … What I said and preached had none of the attractiveness of the clever mind, but it was a demonstration of the power of the Spirit! Plainly God’s purpose was that your faith should not rest upon man’s cleverness but upon the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:1-5 Phillips)
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I suspect the Pope is envious of the level of infallibility given to people like Piper by Piper’s followers. The Pope has tight restrictions and conditions on his infallibility. The others (Piper, Sproul, MacArthur, et. Al.) appear to have no restrictions or conditions.
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I ran upstairs and found my 20-year-old Wayne Grudem Systematic Theology which I put under my Lighted Santa which I put in my second-story window. We are known as “The Santa House” due to that cheap 4 1/2 ft Santa.
However, being the sort of person that I am, I will sacrifice the Santa booster to add to your knowledge. Just send me your address and it will be yours!
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I can’t believe you would do that to Santa!
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On the other hand, a fake santa standing on fake theology is very appropriate.
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Stop that! Santa is real!
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“Theirs is a High and lonely Destiny, Digory.”
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I would be shocked to learn that Dee has imprisoned the real Santa and puts him on display every year. 🙂
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Mattie boy made it clear that women (and children) have about zero worth and zero importance. Mathematically, when the denominator is zero, the value of the fraction is undefined, and therefore has no meaning. So, Ihave concluded, through simple basic mathematics that T4G is undefined and has no meaning.
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I was shocked (and disappointed) to learn that Dee makes a real Santa stand on Grudem’s fakeST!
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Really???
So, I can’t help but ask, is he really “masculine” ???
Just askin’, cuz I don’t understand why churches should have a “masculine feel” (whatever that means) —— Don’t remember reading anything in the Bible about that.
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Bob M,
The whole world has dropped CJ Mahaney.
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Max,
He has that sort of complementation flair. Look at Mre Klaus.
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Maybe we should be most shocked that she can so easily find it every year…
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As it should. But, in reality, there are a few hanger-oners.
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Bob M,
I have one question: If CJ Mahaney did not do “anything wrong” why did he leave his empire, stay with Deaver for awhile, and end up in Louisville?
Leaders get unfounded accusations against them quite often… it goes with the territory.. If he was really innocent, why not stay and refute the charges?? Why did the empire he led implode? Churches/orgs that are truly seeking will transcend such accusations, those that are not will dissolve away.. as the NT parable implies..
Mars Hill comes to mind… Deep Throat Driscoll keep saying the church was all about Jesus, until it imploded..
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The unrepentant brazen arrogance of this kind of mindset coming from these folks has shown up and spoken for them. No other comment needed. Pride and falls, the ultimate delusion is the one where you are always right because your you and no deeper thought is ever required. I rest my argument there…
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And why was he dropped from T4G?
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And why did his bud Mohler drop him like a hot potato?
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Bob M,
Brent is a super-intelligent and careful person. Saying otherwise doesn’t help your case. Too many have read the Documents. Calling Detweiler a crybaby is a huge joke.
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Max,
Puh-lease. God looked at Adam and saw he was incomplete. So, God made woman.
Who wants the beta when you can have version 2.0?
(sarcasm, in case I wasn’t clear)
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You could just as easily say that God took the “gold” out of Adam and left the “dross” behind when he created Eve.
(on a roll, here)
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And now I see my point’s already been made, much more eloquently. Thank you!
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Reminds me something my dad commented once. He is a (retired) public school teacher, and a Christian. Said he always hated coming to the chapter on evolution in the sixth-grade science textbook, because no matter how diplomatically he would teach it and acknowledge that evolution is one viewpoint of many viewpoints out there, there’d always be a phone call from a concerned Christian parent, threatening fire and brimstone.
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As mentioned here?
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2018/05/obey-submit-obey-john-piper-on-domestic-violence.html
Or here?
Natalie Hoffman @FlyFreeNatalie
“At Piper’s church. After a 25 year ‘season’. They supported my abuser. So I divorced him. And they promptly excommunicated me.”
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Max,
Amen!!
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If you need props hold things up it’s not to late to sign up for this:
https://www.9marks.org/community/giveaway/
“Win the Entire 9Marks Library – that’s 103 titles!”
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So many feels on this prize, so few of them positive. Lol. I will take the verbal recognition already given instead. Besides, I prefer my systematic theology texts without the admixture of heresy – no ESS/EFS/ERAS for me, thank you very much.
On that note, I have almost finished St Cyril of Alexandria’s On the Unity of Christ and will read St Athanasius’ On the Incarnation this advent season. In some ways I wonder if Grudem, Ware, et al, were attempting to articulate Christ’s eternal begotteness but got confused somewhere along the way (I am trying to be charitable, largely because I am well caffeinated at the time of this response).
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Upon further reflection, the irony of St Nicholas standing on top of Grudem, as if in victory, is not lost on me. After all, then-Bishop Nicholas is best known for slapping Arius at Nicaea for articulating a position that Grudem himself defended, which Nicaea roundly condemned.
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Saint Nicholas was also famous for throwing bags of gold coins through a poor family’s window, to save the daughters of the house from being sold into slavery. The father caught Nicholas in one of these acts of generosity, but Nicholas asked him to give thanks to God.
We can argue about whether this story is factual, but nowadays the gold flows from the poor to the church leaders, and the poor are supposed to thank the leaders.
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Anyone outside of New Calvinism is a crybaby, unregenerate, false prophet, etc. The new reformers alone hold truth … all others are predestined to hell. Of course, this kind of stinkin’ thinkin’ has been rejected by 90+% of Christendom for the last 500 years.
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The pic of Dever on that promotion is priceless. Would you trust a “pastor” with a smirk like that?!
103 books! The lucky winner of all-things 9Marks will be able to read himself down the wrong road for years to come. He may never get back home.
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Did you click on the video from which the picture came? If not, you need to in order to get the complete experience.
I wonder when they will address these (less popular?) 9 marks of a healthy church: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
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Brilliant symbolism. I wish I would have thought of it.
“Bam! You’ve just been Kris Kringled!”
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I’m still wondering… Why is Al Mohler not attending this final meeting? It’s almost in his backyard, not more than a 10-15 minute drive from Southern Seminary. He could easily drop by for one last speaking gig. It seems odd, even if the registrations are running low, and makes me think something else is up.
I’m guessing that registrations are down, and they realize that the days of a big conference are over.
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Bob M,
Bob M,
You are a throwback. Everyone knows who Mahaney is and no one wants him around except for Piper and a few other throwbacks.
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I didn’t know that! Wow. Santa on Gridem is now a historical reflection.
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So both Arius and Wayne Grudem Go Wayne Grudem can go down in history for getting punched out by Santa Claus.
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Never.
With those, how can you Climb Your Way to the Top as God’s Speshul Anointed Pet?
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Even L Ron Hubbard capped his longest series at 10 books.
You only got series that long in pulp, where the pulp magazine/production house would have a rotating staff of writers under the same pen name. In SF, there’s an old German pulp space opera series called “Perry Rodan” that ran that long or longer, and I’m sure there’s Harlequin Romance series that can match it.
Elron, Perry Rodan, Harlequin – great company for Gawd’s Truly Reformed, ain’t it?
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Heretic, Satanist, Traitor, Thought-Criminal, Goldsteinist, etc.
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Genuflecting with dewy eyes, trembling lips, and Worship Songs of Praise Praise Praise.
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That’s not even High School.
That’s something out of a grade school playground – second grade? first grade? kindergarten?
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Outlived His Usefulness?
(chuckle chuckle)
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Similarly, if we look at the function y=1/x such that ‘x’ can never be zero, and agree to call it the nonsense quotient, we can quickly see that the closer we let ‘x’ approach zero from both sides, the nonsense produced (‘y’) increases without bounds in terms of absolute value.
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Oh, but none of those apply to the New Calvinist movement and its signature disciplinary program at 9Marks! Love?! It just ain’t in the house.
“This is how all men will know that you are my disciples, because you have such love for one another” (John 13:35).
Yep, I’d say we have come to know the new reformers quite well over the past several years. Love is not in their toolkit as they “minister” to others … arrogance is the first descriptor that pops to mind.
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When CJ’s liabilities exceeded his assets, his dudebros distanced themselves from him. “Mahaney who?”
This is quite common in the NeoCal movement … “Mark Driscoll who?” … “James MacDonald who?” … “Joshua Harris who?” … “Russell Moore who?” … “Tullian who?” … etc., etc.
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“Jesus who?”
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Oh yeah. The New Calvinists seldom proclaim the Name above all names. They talk more about Piper than they do Jesus! Their movement is more about Calvin than Christ.
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Wild Honey,
I have been around the SBTS and their professors. Many have been made to think that whatever they said was exalted. No other opinion mattered. It was to be accepted on faith. The young men and women who came to the seminary mostly all fell down and told them how wonderful they were for what they said.
Imagine being the person who gets all this praise. It appeared to me that it was not good for them or the young people giving the praise. The bubble was so strong that the professors started believing what the young people said about them. The next thing they knew they were unmoored from reality and said things that the average person who read their Bible and believed it couldn’t understand and it sound really strange. That person soon dismissed them as irrelevant.
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Dee, excellent post. You were there calling them out from the start. Well done.
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“Little children, keep yourselves from idols” (1 John 5:21)
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The stuff that cults are made of … New Calvinism is a cult; it will be recorded in church history as such.
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New Calvinism is a celebrity culture where personalities compete for the attention and affection of YRR followers. The most idolized celebrities float to the top … you will find them on the stage at T4G.
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I believe you Bob!
BTW, I will soon be receiving 25 million euros. I am going to do all I can to restore CJ’s unfairly tarnished reputation with my new-found wealth.
—————–
My Dear Todd,
My name is Mrs. Renate Settnik Magdalena a German Citizen but living in Burkina Faso.
I am a Widow. I am 67 years old, without any children. I am a devoted Christian and have
the fear of God. I am a philanthropist and a care-giver. I inherited the sum of 25 million Euros from my late husband who was a Crude Oil dealer before he was killed during the Burkina Faso Political unrest that happened Four years ago in August 2016.
Due to his death that resulted in much stress and tension, thereby causing me to contract Paralysis. What worries me is that I am down with FULL-BODY PARALYSIS. I cannot walk, nor stand. I have been bedridden for Three years now. Since I know that I have very limited time to stay on earth before I die according to my Doctors, I have been helping and contributing some amounts of money to Orphanage Homes and to Charity Organizations, as well as Foundations.
With the help of the Bishop of the Catholic Church where I worship, I have given donations to over 10 Charity Organizations and Foundations, in Africa, Asia, South America, etc. I will be giving you the token sum of 25,000,000,00 Euro
As soon as I receive your reply I shall give you the contact of the Catholic Bishop where you will send him your bank details and other requirements he may need from you. I want you and the church to always pray for me.
Get back to me if you are interested and ready to handle this,
my email (Mrs.renatesettnik2@hotmail.com)
Thanks for your cooperation.
Best regards,
Mrs. Renate Settnik Magdalena
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Todd Wilhelm,
Sounds legit.
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Sorry to break this to you Todd:
https://scamwarners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=197716
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I’m pretty sure Bob M is just a drive-by who won’t be back. I am finding that Calvinists stop interacting when the questions get too hard for them. For Bob M, the bar was set very low, apparently. It’s also possible that he is just as real as the 25M Euros.
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All they know is what Piper told them. When the dialogue swings away from their comfort margin, they retreat. When you challenge their faith with truth, they begin to question what they thought they knew … and that can be a good thing if they listen. You just have to break the Pied Piper power over them so they can get free to think critically.
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(Psst, don’t tell him until he gives you and me half of the money in advance.) 😉
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Friend,
I don’t want to give him my bank account info.
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Ken A,
“The bubble was so strong that the professors started believing what the young people said about them.”
+++++++++++++++++++++
“was”, you said. has something shifted? changed? if so, what prompted it?
did you ever see velvet ropes set up when Al Mohler arrived in a fancy car (image management; creating a mystique of elite power to whom the rif raf must kowtow).
I recall hearing something about that.
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I wonder if this is something like a fire sale:
https://zondervanacademic.com/promotions/reformed-theology-sale
Grudem’s new ST is already 50% off. Makes me wonder if this movement is losing its luster.
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I asked for my euros to be delivered as gold coins, tossed through my window at night by Saint Nicholas. 😉
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Ken F (aka Tweed),
It’s Reformation Day this weekend.
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Jesus is your reformation … good in the 16th century, and good today!
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I’ve seen encouraging signs of that in my area. Piper books are beginning to show up at yard sales.
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Makes sense. I wonder why they did not mention that in the ad. They made it sound like supplies could run out, as if it is a clearance sale.
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Well, you are the only website that has immortalized Brent. I commented on one of his blog posts once, and he chased me for months trying to get me to donate to his stay at home pursuit of Mahaney. Uh, No thanks. Geta real job, Brent. I don’t doubt that there was abuse, but Mahaney was not involved in some elaborate cover-up.
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I come back here every couple of years and find the same whiney people whining about the same stuff. I do credit Dee and her previous partner with outing Driscoll, in conjunction with Throckmorton, but the vitriol toward anything Calvinist by so many here…ewww.
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Figures, you’d delete any of my comments that you don’t agree with. Weak.
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Using vitriol to condemn vitriol. Classic.
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Bob M,
You’ve mostly whined about Brent here! I’m no fan of his, but I don’t go to other sites who interact with him and whine about him.
BTW, did you ever read about the interactions Mahaney had with Larry Tomczak and Tomczak’s son, along with Larry promptly leaving the organization? Do your homework then come back and say Mahaney didn’t cover anything up or blackmail anyone. The victim was pretty much not considered at all.
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If CJ is so squeaky clean, why was he dropped from New Calvinist associations such as TGC and T4G? Why is he no longer endorsed by New-Calvinists? How did it become a case of “CJ who?”
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Which way has the balance tipped for CJ in the New Calvinist community … squeaky clean vs. not squeaky clean?
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I noticed that Al Mohler is not speaking at the last T4G. I wonder why?
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dee,
A person who has confessed faith in Christ and is not unrepentantly violating the teachings of Christ is a sister or brother in Christ.
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Terry Lange,
He tends to stay away from losers.
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Jeremy,
The problem comes when someone sees something they deem important. They usually start going after people. For example, I am a theistic evolutionist. I believe that God spoke and the universe came into being. He is behind everything, including the atoms. Yet, because I am not a literal 6day creationist Ken Ham says he doubts my salvation.
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Bridget,
Well said.
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Bob M,
I didn’t delete any comments in this post. I usually delete comments that go political. So, if something was deleted, it was not apparent.
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Bob M,
Why don’t you go and find other blogs that make you feel less icky. There are so many of them and lots of them are Calvinist in nature.
Try to be a little nicer. You could make your point and get people to listen to you if you tried a bit harder.
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I wouldn’t be so whiney if it weren’t for folks like Bob.
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Just his presence is enough to inspire. To get a glimpse of the beloved, to touch the hem of his suit, to take back home a precious memory of being where he was. Idols would have no throne if it weren’t for idolaters. They don’t need to speak, they just need to be.
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dee,
Just watched a Bill Nye documentary. Nye visits Ham’s Arkland and Creationland. Nye and Ham debate. Nye respectfully draws a line with regard to faith and science which Ham does not.
Nye also looks at Arctic research with a scientist who, like you, Dee, keeps his faith in God, and his research in science, compatibly.
Anyway, thought about some of what you’ve shared here at TWW about your own science & faith journey, while watching the Nye doc.
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I watched a debate between them a few years ago – I don’t know if it was the same debate you watched. It was a disappointing debate because neither of them are the right people for that topic. Nye is much more humane (and human), but he lacks solid credentials and is more an entertainer than a scientist. Ham is a pompous blowhard who set up Nye for a kill. There are better people to argue creationist positions (there are more than one). For example, I think Hugh Ross would have been much more informative and humble. It would have been a much more informative discussion for the audience.
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Again, this review of Downfall (Der Untergang) that explores the same point:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI5ZsEy8ASg
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“And the rest of it he makes into a god, and falls down before it and worships it; he prays to it and saya “DELIVER ME, FOR THOU ART MY GOD!”
— Isiaiah 44:17
(And I’m convinced Isaiah must have followed this statement with the comment “MORON!”
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He’s WINNING like Charlie Sheen’s infamous interview?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FirkOBo4THE