I would rather be a little nobody than to be an evil somebody.” ―
I have long written (12 years this March, folks) about bully pastors. When I first started blogging much of my time was taken up by the Sovereign Grace/CJ Mahaney and Mars Hill/Mark Driscoll fiasco. It is my opinion that Mahaney and Driscoll were amongst some of the more visible pastor bullies that we have seen. However, it is the little bullies in untold numbers of churches that are changing the face of the church in American and abroad.
Here is my main point: Pastors and church leaders speaking out against bully pastors are themselves working for organizations and churches which promote bullying and they use Scripture as cover.
Two posts from The Gospel Coalition on pastoral bullies
Both posts bring out good points but both of them participate in a theological system that I believe promotes coercive tactics to subjugate their members/followers.
1. Sam Allbery wrote How Do Churches End Up with Domineering Bullies for Pastors? Allberry boils it all down to two models. The CEO/business model is found in the US and the military model which is found in the UK.
In the CEO model:
- His role is to bring success, often and especially measured in numerical terms: The church needs to grow in membership and giving.
- The pastor-as-CEO approach might foster entrepreneurialism and risk-taking, but it easily becomes results-oriented.
- One produces swagger: Their word is law because they’re economically indispensable to the church.
In the military model:
- The pastor is the three-star general who directs everyone to do the right things.
- (This) produces presumption: Orders must be followed because the general “knows” what is best for every person.
Allberry makes some good points about the problem of being domineering and comes to this conclusion with which I agree.
If a believer has certain doctrinal views or behaves in certain ways simply because a domineering pastor has coerced them to, then those views or actions are not proceeding from faith. It is not the Spirit of Christ who has brought them about, but the forcefulness of a leader. This is catastrophic because the believer isn’t being led by the Lord, but by man. Believing even the right things is no good if it is for the wrong reason.
Allberry discusses the role of love by quoting from 1 Corinthians 13. However, he is enmeshed in a system (Calvinista) in which the word love has been changed into “If I (the pastor) really loves you, then I will discipline you for just about anything I want since your membership covenant (contract) says you must submit to me.” It is fascinating to me that anyone would sign one of these things which allows a church to discipline a member without discussing, a priori, which infractions will be disciplined.
He ends by reminding us about *authority.* How this is lived out is the root of this problem. Authority? How much? When? Who?
Again, there is authority in the office of being an elder (Heb. 13:17). There will be times when a pastor needs to call for that office to be respected and honored. But the people should be obedient to their leaders not because they’re terrified of them, but because they’re inspired and encouraged by them.
Sam Allbery in his bio on his website says the following:
Sam Allberry is a pastor, regular conference speaker, global speaker for Ravi Zacharias International Ministries, editor for the Gospel Coalition, and visiting professor at Cedarville University.
He does not mention that he has been a longstanding supporter of Desiring God and 9Marks. In this article, he recommends Wayne Grudem, John Piper, and even recommending Doug Wilson for a thoughtful alternative point of view. He’s also a speaker for Acts29
To make matters worse, I have been contacted by folks in the UK who are quite upset by the domineering leadership that is being touted over there. Allberry’s name has come up in these contacts. Apparently Acts 29 is having some headway in the UK amongst the elite public schooled set (In the UK public boarding schools are like the private boarding schools in the US. But more about that in the future.
He has also been supportive of the Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood and Liberty University.
So take a look at the list of Allberry’s associations. He is closely tied to groups that have had a rather poor history of addressing abuse or bullying within his own circles of influence.
- Ravi Zacharias
- Members churches of The Gospel Coalition
- Acts29
- 9Marks
- Cedarville University
- CBMW
- John Piper/Desiring God
- Liberty University
Am I saying that Allberry is abusive? Of course not.I don’t know what he’s like when he is in charge. I would sure like to see him take a good hard look at his associations and address them directly. Instead, he has written a nice, safe article on bullies and no one will pay attention because he is being sufficiently vague…plausible deniability and all.
2. Recently Michael Kruger wrote How Do Churches End Up with Domineering Bullies for Pastors? which was presented on The Gospel Coalition website. Ironically, he points out bullies: Mark Driscoll, Jerry Falwell, and Steven Timmis. (I will reprint my entire post on the Steven Timmis debacle at the end of this post.) Steven Timms will become the dudebros proof they are *did something.* They did nothing about Driscoll and Mahaney in spite of pleas from hurt church members. But, the boys gotta stick together.
Christianity Today reported the removal of Acts 29 CEO Steve Timmis due to “abusive leadership” and “bullying.” Ironically, these were some of the same concerns that led to the removal of the founder of Acts 29, Mark Driscoll.
Even more recently, we see the problem of abusive behavior in the downfall of Jerry Falwell, Jr.. Prior to the revelations about sexual misconduct, Falwell’s reign as president of Liberty University was riddled with concerns about bullying, abusive behavior, and intimidation.
Dee commenced to banging her head against the table in the finally completed kitchen and scaring Tulip and Buttercup half to death. (Quick diversion: if you need to gut your kitchen and remake it, move!!)
Does Krueger even see the irony of his post appearing on TGC’s website? The TGC website promoted Mark Driscoll and CJ Mahaney even when well-documented stories appeared on blogs and media about their abuses??? They accused some of us of libel, not mentioning any names or anything. TGC is the website of wusses. Mark Driscoll crashed and burned and they quietly removed his articles from the TGC website, probably studiously ignoring the fact that TGC promoted him for years. Oddly they have done the same thing with CJ Mahaney, another prolific writer for the TGC website. See what happens when you go to Michael Kruger’s name at TGC Standing up for bullies means never having to say you’re sorry when it comes to TGC.
While all shortcomings in a leader have potential to harm the flock, there’s something exponentially painful about bullying behavior. People are being hurt by the very people who are supposed to protect and care for them.
Kruger says the right words: be kind, be gentle, be a servant, etc. but I find it hard to believe him. I know the history at TGC.
It’s time for the Calvinistas to take a good, hards look at their theology, their covenants, their buddies, and figure out what’s wh
I invented the term *Calvinista* to point a finger at those Calvinists who are domineering, self-absorbed, and absolutely sure they are right. These are not your daddy’s kindly Reformed pastors. They are nothing like my current pastors who are gentle, kind, and true servants. They are role models to me.
It’s going to take someone who really wants to make a difference in the status quo to make a dent in the innumerable bullies in the pulpit. But, the celebrity-driven Calvinista set has determined who’s in and who’s out And no one wants to be out.
My post from last year.: A TWW Tutorial on How to Spot a Controlling Bully: Matt Chandler Fires Acts 29 CEO Steve Timmis
This week begins a number of posts that have some links to the very beginning of this blog. TWW first wrote about Acts 29 in 2010: Big Papa D and the SBC (forgive the old formatting.) Of course, it was about Mark Driscoll, Acts 29, and his nonsense. All of our local SBC dudebros: Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary: Danny Akin and JD Greear were supportive of Acts 29. Interestingly, Matt Chandler shows up in support of this network led by Driscoll who actually was the one who brought this group together.
Throughout the years, TWW has documented in post after post, the inherent problems of authoritarian leadership and predatory practices in taking over churches. This post in 2013 was especially Is Acts 29 Planting or Decimating Churches?
The more we read and documented, the more convinced I became that Acts 29 is simply one of several entities that do things exactly in the same way. This includes 9 Marks, The Gospel Coalition, Desiring God and any number of other Reformed Baptist and PCA churches led by those who consider themselves part of the Young, Restless, and Reformed movement. Sadly, these men are no longer young and many of them wear their skinny jeans hiked up under their increasing girth. Oh yes, then there are the costly sneakers…
Acts 29 has long been known for its heavy-handed leadership style. I remember when Matt Chandler took over the network. The rejoicing was loud and unrestrained. Chandler was then known as the Pope of the YRR set except the pope starting exhibiting signs that his DNA was not much different than Mark Driscoll’s genes. There was the:
- Narcissistic Zero incident.
- Karen Hinkley must be pushed under Chandler’s authority and stay married to the child porn loving husband incident
- Matt Chandler and The Village Church being sued over a child molestation incident at their camp and tried to pull the *church covenant means you can’t sue us* incident which didn’t work. *(Ed: Hallelujah)
- Questionable counseling practices incidents.(Thanks to Anna Keith )
I could go on and on. It has been evident to me since the Narcissistic Zero incident that Matt Chandler was an authoritarian bully and that we would continue to see problem after problem with him which brings us to the real meat of this story.
Steve Timmis fired as CEO of Acts 29 as reported by Christianity Today.
Acts 29 CEO Removed Amid ‘Accusations of Abusive Leadership’
This was subtitled: “Steve Timmis was acclaimed for his model of a close church community. But former members claim that inside The Crowded House, he resorted to bullying and control.”
Here are some quotes from the article.
- Fifteen people who served under Timmis described to Christianity Today a pattern of spiritual abuse through bullying and intimidation, overbearing demands in the name of mission and discipline, rejection of critical feedback, and an expectation of unconditional loyalty.
- Inter-Varsity Press UK will no longer sell Timmis’s titles (including Total Church and Everyday Church, both co-written with Tim Chester), citing “that the style of close church community advocated in these books lacked sufficient safeguards against abusive control” and apologizing for them possibly contributing to “unhealthy and even abusive church cultures.”]
- He recalled being berated for making travel plans without consulting with Timmis first. He was told he was rejecting discipline and choosing to be “a law unto himself,” a signature Timmis phrase (originating from Romans 2:14) that former members repeated in multiple stories.
- To go from being inside a highly relational, tight community to being considered an “ungospeled” and rebellious outsider can be traumatic. “We at one point thought it was easier to leave the country than the church,” said Murphy, who belonged to The Crowded House for more than 13 years. It felt impossible to avoid his former church community in day-to-day activities like school pickups and neighborhood walks. (His family now has plans to move to Belfast.)
Matt Chandler fired five critics of Steve Timmis who came to him for help. He mirrored Timmis’ bullying style.
Apparently, 5 staff members complained to Chandler that Timmis was a bully. And Matt Chandler, acting as the supreme bully, fired them all.
- According to a copy of a 2015 letter sent to Acts 29 president Chandler and obtained by CT, five staff members based in the Dallas area described their new leader as “bullying,” “lacking humility,” “developing a culture of fear,” and “overly controlling beyond the bounds of Acts 29,” with examples spanning 19 pages.
- During a meeting with Chandler and two board members to discuss the letter, all five were fired and asked to sign non-disclosure agreements as a condition of their severance packages. They were shocked. ( Ed note:I wasn’t-it’s classical Chandler.)
Chandler played the “I didn’t know it” card.
I don’t believe Chandler. He was well aware of Timmis’ abusive style since, in my opinion, it mirrors Chandler’s modus operandi.
A tutorial on how to evaluate Steve Timmis’ church, The Crowded House, for clues that this guy might be a spiritual abuser.
Google his name and see which ministries admire him.
There is one thing I always do before evaluating the church website. I like to see if the person I’m looking at hangs around or is admired by other concerning ministries. In this case, I searched Steve Timmis and Sovereign Grace churches and came up with some links. It is obvious he is admired in this ministry which I believe has a history of abuse and authoritarian leadership. This is not proof. Only a clue.
Go to his church website: The Crowded House link
I believe one should spend at least 20-30 minutes reviewing a church website prior to visiting the church for the first time. These websites often give enough information for the reader to spot red flags. In this case, I am looking for potential clues to point towards the potential for controlling and abusive behavior.
Steve Timmis has been dumped from Crowded House and the church *intends* to hire *someone* to explore what happened and make recommendations.
We write with a concern for the reputation of Christ and a desire to care for his people.
Steve Timmis, the founder of The Crowded House, has been transitioned out of his role with Acts 29 following allegations about his leadership style. This was followed by an article in Christianity Today about his conduct in the church. On Friday 7th February Steve Timmis resigned as an elder of The Crowded House. We have valued his ministry among us and his role in founding the church. Many of us owe him a personal debt.
We also feel the weight of the stories told in the article. It is therefore our intention to ask someone from outside our network to explore what has happened and make recommendations. It will be for that person to shape the process, but we want to listen to all concerned with humility. We are willing to hear where we may have failed people. We recognise the need to open ourselves up to external and impartial scrutiny.
– The remaining elders of The Crowded House churches.
Sunday 9th February 2020
That’s really good but…my understanding that one of the elders is related to him and the other two elders are quite young. So, do not take this as a sign that they are taking care of the mess. Wait and see who is selected to *make recommendations.* In the meantime, do some of your own research.
They intend to control you.
Again, on the home page (they are making this easy for me) read this.
One must look at the church as one’s family. This means that significant decisions that impact the family must be considered. If you read the entire CT article, you will see this example.
He recalled being berated for making travel plans without consulting with Timmis first. He was told he was rejecting discipline and choosing to be “a law unto himself,” a signature Timmis phrase (originating from Romans 2:14) that former members repeated in multiple stories.
This is significant. I know a church which mirrors Crowded House. A young man wished to change jobs for a better position that he had long wanted. He told his *family* and they disagreed with him and told him to turn it down since it might take time away from them!!
This statement alone would cause me to stay away from this church.
More control
Under the gospel-centered category on the first page (this is so easy) you find the following.
Speaking the truth in love, we challenge one another to be sacrificial, servant-hearted, risk-taking and flexible because the gospel has priority over our comfort, preferences, security and traditions.
That sounds really, really nice. However, can you see how this might be used to coerce an unsuspecting member to acquiesce to an uncomfortable demand?
Does Crowded House affiliate with other groups? Yep
At the very bottom of the front page, one can see the logo of Acts 29 which is known for being authoritarian in its *gospel* presence.
Crosslands is a ministry for training and education started by, of course, Acts 29 so one should be aware of the DNA Involved. For example, Biblical counseling is offered through Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary.
Always look at a statement of faith.
In this, one quickly learns the parameters of doctrine. Definitely reformed, and definitely complementarian
The Crowded House is evangelical, missional, reformed and complementarian.
Ask what they mean by complementarian. What exactly can women do and not do?
Always click the About button.,
By doing this, I discovered something. Not only did they can Timmis but at least one other elder stepped down. I bet it was his relative. Yikes! The two who are left are very young. This should be another red flag.
Click on “internship” and read it carefully. Sounds really good.
The Crowded House internship is a year long programme that offers a unique opportunity in which both your character and skills will be developed. Our aim is to provide a significant experience of gospel ministry that will prepare you for a lifetime serving Jesus among his people in the world.
My good friend, Todd Wilhelm, called me last evening and got me laughing about this. You see, it appears that the interns are supposed to develop character. Its really important. How do they do this?
Yep, sweep the floor and develop character. I went to a church that had a ton of deacons. Their job was to assist in the parking lot and add chairs in the sanctuary as needed.I have to admit that it was funny when men (only men in that church-Reformed baptist) who were so excited to be deacons, found themselves spending the better part of Sunday morning in the parking lot.
There area number of other red flags on that website but I’ll leave that up to TWW sleuths.
Finally, always check for outside sources who are interested or who have been involved in the situation. This is one incredible blog post.
Here is one well-written post: God frees us from celebrity pastors
I got a chance to see Steve in the flesh many years ago when he was touring across the UK plugging one of his new books. He spoke really well and was very engaging. I kind of liked him as despite his age (he was there along with Matt Chandler) he was really passionate. I had heard about him only in name but when he was introduced I realised that he had co authored a few books that I actually owned.
He and Tim Chester (Whos is an enabler of the abuse Timmis inflicted) had knocked out a number of books that were getting eagerly eaten up by many Reformed Evangelicals who wanted to be less cold and stodgy and more warm and friendly with their fellow neighbour. Timmis was at the forefront of putting these things into action and putting bible verses behind them. So to vast swathes of middle class and rather nervous reformed Christians his books were just what they were after
…So thousands of us happily bought anything that was promoting a ‘missional’ or ‘gospel intentional’ way of living. Church planting was the buzz word and it was something all the people who ‘actually cared’ were involved in. These were the spiritual heavy hitters who by their works showed how much they loved God.
Often I will look at one of my old bookcases. It is filled with different books I had bought and read from cover to cover. The first shelf of those is made up mostly of reformed books that were written in the early 2010’s and beyond. I cannot express how much time I wasted reading them.
…I honestly can shed no tears for him (Timmis). I find in these circumstances that the celeb pastor has no end of comforters publicly supporting and endorsing them, however the nameless, small and often poor victims who have not the luxury of a recognisable name have very few comforters. I am overjoyed that Timmis has been outed and hope he can hurt less and less people and those who he has hurt can find healing and fellowship with our Lord.
That was one awesome post.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
1
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Numero dos?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Sam Allberry is also “same-sex attracted” and has attempted to defend the general Evangelical position that being a practicing LGBTQIA person is bad. (Not super successfully, IMHO.) However, I believe he teaches celibacy for LGBTQIA people, which is a kind of middle ground position. There are pastors who are much more conservative than him saying “NO, God does not create ‘homosexuals'” and who will state that Allberry needs to convert from his current position and give up his “same-sex attraction.”
I could make a long, long list of all the serious defects in the Evangelical Industrial Complex (EIC), and this (position/status of LGBTQIA people) would be but one point. As far as I’m concerned, the EIC is doing a *super* job figuratively burning itself down. Trying to be as authoritarian as the gold standard of cults (that’d be Scientology) is just pouring more figurative gasoline on the fire.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Just this alone is like the all-star list of abusive ministries. I am wondering if he is calling for the removal of Lori Anne’s NDA or if he said ANYTHING when bad things started to come to light in those ministries?
No?
Then it’s just TGC marketing clickbait…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Yes, let’s not believe that it is possible for people to change and become aware of things, all because they are Calvinists!
You understand that there are Calvinists reading this blog, right?
Do we need to let go of Calvinism to fight against bullying and sexual abuse, or are we allowed to do so while remaining true to our beliefs?
Anyways, this Calvinist is glad to see fellow Calvinists speaking against abuse. Let us think what is good (Phil. 4:8) and rejoice in products of God’s grace even in people with whom we disagree.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Apparently he has: https://www.eternitynews.com.au/world/rzim-speakers-sam-alberry-dan-gilman-support-critics-call-for-reform/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
> “It’s going to take someone who really wants to make a difference in the status quo to make a dent in the innumerable bullies in the pulpit.”
——–
I doubt that a “great man” (or, even more improbably given the ethos of this movement, a “great woman”) can change the trajectory of these churches. As long as the business model is profitable, it will continue and spread.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Because they are The Predestined Elect, God’s Speshul Pets Who Can Do No Wrong.
Since before the creation of the world.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“Pastors and church leaders speaking out against bully pastors are themselves working for organizations and churches which promote bullying and they use Scripture as cover.” (Dee)
Those that preach the hardest against particular sins are often immersed in it themselves. Pulpit rants opposing certain sinful behavior is a way to deflect attention to others, while treating staff and family like hell behind the scene. Beware of pastors who ooze kindness – shaking your hand with a smile to get in your pocket, while staff and family sit in the pew not smiling … they know the wizard behind the curtain.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“… enmeshed in a system (Calvinista) in which the word love has been changed …” (Dee)
Love is the last word that would be used to describe a New Calvinist church leader. Arrogance is the first word that pops to mind.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“Tulip and Buttercup”
Oh Dee!! You have a dog named “Tulip”?! 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Went down the link to that 2013 posting.
The comment thread was “Righteous Seneca vs All Comers”.
(I have not seen Seneca on line since Internet Monk closed down; for the past year he was camped out on IMonk, up to his usual shticks.)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“I invented the term *Calvinista* to point a finger at those Calvinists who are domineering, self-absorbed, and absolutely sure they are right. These are not your daddy’s kindly Reformed pastors.” (Dee)
As a Southern Baptist for 70+ years (I’m Done now), I sat alongside classical Calvinists scattered amongst the majority of non-Calvinist SBC members in those days. I found them to be civil in their discourse and respectful of other expressions of faith; I counted many of them as friends. Not so with the New Calvinists! They are arrogant, aggressive and militant … their view of ministry is to manipulate, intimidate and dominate the life of church members, stripping them of their freedom in Christ to submit only to church rulers. Judgment Day is coming for such “pastors.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The authority of Christ in New Calvinist churches is non-existent. The influence of Christ in their ministries is difficult to find.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Cp,
i’m waiting for Sam Allberry to recognize his role in being an enabler of Ravi Zacharias and RZIM,
and more specifically how his influence enabled the false narrative of Lorianne Thompson to proliferate, turning hoards of her fellow christians against her.
i’m waiting for a sincere apology to be broadcast **at the very least** in proportion to the degree in which he broadcast his previous support and endorsement of Ravi and RZIM.
in the meantime, i marvel at the lack of self-awareness in evangelical leaders.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Oh yeah, there’s a pandemic of that in the Christian Industrial Complex! A bully pulpit will never personalize:
“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and fail to notice the plank in your own? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me get the speck out of your eye’, when there is a plank in your own? You fraud! Take the plank out of your own eye first, and then you can see clearly enough to remove your brother’s speck of dust.” (Matthew 7:3-5 Phillips)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I wasn’t judging the weight and sufficiency of his response. Merely pointing out that he has said something, when Ishy was asking that question.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“excited to spend their time in the parking lot”…. I went to that church, and believe me, being the in parking lot was better than being in the service.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I once heard a frustrated preacher shout to the pew: “You look like you are in jail, rather than church!” What he didn’t realize was that many would prefer a stint in the slammer rather than listening to his sermons!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Mee,
Some whom I’ve come across seem to believe something unsensational, and are more kindly, thoughtful and individual than the po-faced triumphalists (who lionise “big names”) in the Designer Outlet Churches (DOCs). I sense they would be wary of the pitfalls described in this blog and are where some other churches were 40 or 50 years ago. I told them that if they become PULPIT Calvinists, they will look for a double portion of Holy Spirit strength for mutual P for Perseverance.
All sorts of people train together: some just decide to be careful, while others are careless and court the publicity-seekers. Two of my three worst churches (toned down Neo cals) didn’t have “membership” and there were some nice parishioners in both. I also know decent believing churches incl. eldership who are merely toned down Cals (non neo).
In a fragmented society bad and subtle forms of irrational emotional sentimentality seem to have been made the mainstay. The worst dynamic of leaders is to get the congregation to behave as their private bloc. Watch fashion change and for any number of factions to become the worst wielders of this soon. Flavours of fundamentalism based on Hegel are what it’s especially about.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Cp,
understood. i was sharing my thoughts on the greater subject, expanding on your comment.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
There Must Be Higher Love?
hmmm…
Calvinism as a religious belief system is historically, and fundamentally flawed.
Their code word term, sovereign grace, performs as an over reaching religious tyranny, and is truly at the core of their belief system , …that ultimately , in time, denies the parishioner, church member of their will to function as an healthy independent thinking individual. Group thinking becomes the norm, and independent thought is subsequently discourage. Challenging their assumptions is generally frowned upon. Ultimately you will be mentally denied the biblical tools to process the felonious fallacies of their underlining system. Personnel research is therefore highly recommended. Please Beware. Proceed with caution…
I found Whitney Houston – Higher Love song uplifting during these trying times…
ATB
Sòpy
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Mee,
Historically speaking, was John Calvin a bit of a bully himself?
Is bullying doing what it takes to keep a congregation in line?
Is bullying dealing with a sinful society as a man of God? (Elijah and Ahab?)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
To this day, I cannot figure out why some Evangelicals seem obsessed with homosexuality.
I mean, given all the other ills of the clear and present danger type that threaten humans on a global scale, why the focus on who’s bedding who?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Muff Potter,
– churchy propaganda usually doesn’t explain Holy Spirit these days; huge swathes of Christendom don’t get assured of His help in all matters; hence there is no genuine evangelising
– the relative virtue of a degree of chastity / continence / whatever you might call it, including in marriage, is something to freely go after as individuals on our own initiative and in the light of our own Holy Spirit belief; no religious teacher should ever give the slightest appearance of wanting to coerce others
– so many leaders are touting the Holy Spirit-less power grabbing model on mass media
– racy NT language in lists, is “top men and bottom men” and refers to a “recreational” and even competitive element in the wider society of the time
– “kingdom of God / heaven” is a different quality of thing from “being saved” even if there is overlap; there appears zero teaching on this
– it is wrongful to try to finnick about anyone’s habitus
– what happens to some youths (or the middle aged) is first they look at others, then two things happen, either they are told “what you looking at, you’re gay”, or they are told, “it is your destiny to get into bed with us” (there is a variation in phases occurring to “heterosexual” men) (it is the same for non-gay, this is I believe interpreted as “coming on”?) (it also sometimes happens when one, especially a girl or woman, is looked AT)
– few people realise they don’t need to sexualise their “attractions”
– if you had been predated (GF) this can be accommodated in a genuine Holy Spirit system of principles (especially including wholesome secular help if freely chosen) (am probably not phrasing that well)
– few people realise they can keep their eyes out of other people’s space when appropriate
– few people realise they can use degrees of inference about what is appropriate; if it is appropriate from you towards others, it is appropriate for you.
– few people realise they can smile light heartedly (mainly to themselves) like my old acquaintance when he felt a touch of the “DDGs” coming on
– it’s nice to think there are people who are thought nice by the people around them
– at one time authority would tell singles in their late 20s they are gay
– at one time authority would tell children single people in their late 20s are gay
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I meant, the context being, “you were once” extortioners (as tax collectors or Pharisees) cult devotees etc. and Paul and others have explained and demonstrated Holy Spirit belief and hope and outlook in all one’s affairs, as part of Gospel, unlike (sadly) most churches today
I also meant that of course sexual rights & wrongs are equal between men & women; “male and female He created them” means we are male and female mingling together as much as apart; my parents split work and childcare in the way that was practical in what was near poverty at times, and they shared housework equally, and I’ve studied and worked in fields where men & women were equally prevalent; even in some of my “worst” churches the women were the best preachers; etc etc etc; some of the 2010 threads referenced with their comments expand on this very well
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Well, you didn’t want to be a theological enemy of Calvin in 16th century Geneva … exile, imprisonment, torture and/or execution awaited those who challenged him.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max,
Max, I keep coming back to this point that you repeatedly make… it does come down to this…. these clowns are not looking to Christ..
My church’s small group, with lead from our pastors, is highlighting a book of the Bible each week… we are in NT now, and Paul’s letters… and the last few weeks have highlighted specific passages, which have been focused on Paul’s admonitions…. which focus on being like Christ…. the real irony is that all of these YRR clowns, and Piper, follow Calvin, which supposedly overemphasizes Paul, BUT much of Paul’s writing focuses on “ being like Christ”..
such a perversion….
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max,
You might want to read my article on Calvin and church discipline…
“The Sinews of the Body of Christ” Calvin’s Concept of Church Discipline — By: Stephen M. Johnson (Westminster Journal, Spring 1997)
https://www.galaxie.com/article/wtj59-1-06
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The New Calvinists distort Paul’s epistles by not filtering them through the Gospels. If you read Paul first, you might miss Jesus. But if you read Jesus first, the writings of Paul come into perspective. By largely ignoring the words in red, the new reformers preach another gospel which is not ‘the’ Gospel.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max,
While not disagreeing significantly, reading Philippians 2:5-11, is pretty clear Paul says we should be like Christ, and how he describes Christ in those passages is NOT how the Calvinistas behave…. in fact, the preacher Dee discribe are just about the opposite of what Paul describes..
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Well I guess Calvin was a bully,but there must be more to it. Martin Luther is also not exactly known for the gentle and subtle approach, but you don’t hear the same level of control about conservative Lutheran churches I think. Part of it must have got to do with accountability of pastors/congregations to a higher authority in the church structure hierarchy?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
After, finally, reading Allberry’s article — I liked it but I wonder whether there may be “blind spots”
The concluding paragraph seems incomplete:
Allberry: “Again, there is authority in the office of being an elder (Heb. 13:17). There will be times when a pastor needs to call for that office to be respected and honored. But the people should be obedient to their leaders not because they’re terrified of them, but because they’re inspired and encouraged by them. Ultimately, it should be because the leaders point them to Christ by their example and spur them to their own love and good deeds.”
This strikes me as “true as far as it goes”, but one could go further. In particular “inspired and encouraged by [leaders]” still has a hierarchical, top-down feel. The laity is a substrate on which the leadership acts, shaping it toward certain ends. I think that “obedience” within “relationship” is fundamentally rooted in “trust”. I don’t think that “trust” or “trustworthiness” is mentioned at all in the article.
—-
I suspect that there is a connection between two things Allberry rightly draws attention to:
“loveless leaders”
and
“compliance through human compulsion rather than Spirit-led faith”
IOW, I think that Allberry is hinting, if not directly affirming, that the Spirit is not the source of the results in authoritarian churches. Perhaps he is even opening the door to the possibility that the Spirit is not even present in such churches.
An hypothesis that has intrigued me for several years is the idea that our reading of the words of Paul and Jesus may misunderstand the “location” of the Spirit in the churches. The consensus view is that the “location” is primarily or exclusively within individuals so that if there are any believers in a local congregation, the the Spirit is necessarily present in that congregation.
But the Greek en humin that is typically translated “within you(pl.)” can also be read “among you(pl.)”. A similar phrase, en hemin is rendered “among us” in John 1:14. The reading “in us” as in “within us individuals” makes no sense there.
The possibility that en humin should be read “among you(pl.)” suggests the idea that “the Spirit inhabits (or also inhabits) the spaces between believers”. If those spaces are not characterized by “love”, perhaps the Spirit is “grieved” (the warning to not “grieve the Spirit” in Eph 4 comes after a long list of ways that relationships can be characterized by “not love”. The loveless church at Ephesus is threatened, in Rev 2, with “removal of its lamp-stand”.)
I think that Allberry is right to see a connection between loveless authoritarian leadership and non-working of the Spirit. I suspect that the connection is intimate. Perhaps the authoritarian leaders are actually driving the Spirit away.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Another think sadly lacking among Calvinista leaders is any demonstrable knowledge of…
… Cricket.
An intriguing first day of the First Test between India and England in Chennai. England, having won the toss, closed on 263-3 with Joe Root marking his 100th Test with a fine unbeaten century. Had opener Dominic Sibley not fallen (for a highly-creditable 87) in the final over of the day, England would definitely have had the upper hand at stumps; as it is, the match is finely poised.
Regular Wartburgers will recall the last test played between the two sides at this venue – England batted first and scored 477, only for India to rack up a huge 759-7 declared and win by an innings…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
No problems there; no para-church faction owns the word “tulip”. We have a bear named Norges Bear (Lesley bought him in Bergen when we we visited Norway many years ago). And another one called Victoria Bear.
IHTIH
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Agreed. “Christlikeness” is not a descriptor of the New Calvinists I know in my area.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The only response I can muster to this group of New Pharisees is a quote from that Crazy Carpenter, who was quoting a famous proverb to his fellow Nazarenes in Luke 4: “Physician, heal thyself!”
It kind of reminds me of the article and video that Mark Dever did about “Don’t
Be a 9-Marxist!”
Their ‘brand’ of religion seems to attract nothing BUT bullies and narcissists. Why do they seem so surprised?!?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
They don’t see themselves as they really are.
“… you are merely deluding yourselves … like a man catching the reflection of his own face in a mirror. He sees himself, it is true, but he goes on with whatever he was doing without the slightest recollection of what sort of person he saw in the mirror” (James 1:23-25 Phillips)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Yes, but perhaps s/he’s only a ‘4-point’ pug! 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The name would be “TU- -IP” in that case and she would be a Christmas Pug (No-“L”+
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Cp,
Since I am the resident conservative Lutheran, let me take a stab at it.
1. Luther had a potty mouth.
2. Luther did not kill anyone for doctrinal unlike Calvin (see Servetus)
3. I do not judge a church, by its denomination. I judge how the faith is lived out in the church. That is why I have been a member of many churches in different denomination along the way. It took us 2 1/2 years to join our Lutheran church.
4. The two pastors and the DCEs are Biblical, kind, loving, and stick to their mission. They avoid things like politics like the plague.
5. They know everybody in the church that has 700 attendees.
6. They are mission-oriented.
7. They are definitely not *rules-focused.* In fact, they don’t get some of the nonsense going on in other church groups.
8. You would like them.
Yes, they are part of a denomination. However, the pastors determine the way their Lutheranism is lived out.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I agree.
In Lutheranism, both synods,LCMS and ELCA; have strong central governments, and it works well in my opinion.
Not so with the independent mega-biggies.
More often than not they (mega-biggies) are governed by a tribal strongman (lead pastor) whose word is law.
If he says ‘jump’, the only reply expected of you (generic you) is: How high?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
If it was Piper’s pug, s/he would be a 7-pointer!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee,
I can forgive Luther’s potty-mouth, but what Calvin did to Servetus was as unChristian as you can get.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max,
Burned him at the stake … is that a Sola point?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
That’s also the expectation, or should be, for hetero single adults (i.e., celibacy) with Christianity.
-No matter what others here may say, who claim they see zippo support for sexually abstaining until marriage – I do see it in the biblical text as well as its assumptions.
The church stopped supporting sexual abstinence for anyone years ago. They don’t even try.
The common position among a lot of Christians now (and has been for years) is that everyone, gay or hetero, is “doing it” before marriage, and it’s not really a big deal.
Resulting in, among other things, adult hetero celibates like me getting no emotional / practical support by Christians for being celibate / single.
(I do get the occasional platitude from well meaning Christians (usually something about being “gifted with celibacy / singleness”), which doesn’t help either.)
I didn’t want or plan to be single/celibate this long in life, thanks but no thanks, Christians.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Whitney Houston was a talented singer, has some really catchy pop songs, but…
“Higher Love” was recorded by Steve Winwood prior to her rendition, and I prefer his version to hers. You might want to go to You Tube and look for Winwood’s version of “Higher Love.” It came out around the mid-1980s.
I do like a lot of Houston’s ’80 pop songs, though, and her cover of “I Will Always Love You” (originally written by Dolly Parton).
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Looked it up. Now, can’t unsee it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee,
Hi Dee,
I love the Lutheran church. We vacation regularly in Austria and Germany and we always attend Lutheran churches there. I wasn’t attacking the church at all. The reason I mentioned them positively for not bullying. Which is my opinion is at least partly due to what @Muf Potter says: synods and oversight.
(And not based on Luther’s personality inspiration)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy,
Thank you, Daisy, thank you. This needn’t be intrusive and needn’t reflect on anyone in a different situation. Part of the worst is if a “men’s” group assumes there aren’t some still bachelors. I really think Jesus and Paul and James and Peter wanted us more of a mix than the designer template does.
Another thing – I’ve never seen myself as competing against women (and neither did they until recently when they were told they should) nor against other men. Marriage always seems open for the future – maybe a Josephite one (without clergy permission) or not. I and whatever good lady will also have to have lots of friends in addition to each other.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The difference between single straight Christians and single LGBTQIA Christians is that single straight Christians have an out…they can get married to an opposite sex partner. In no world in Evangelicalism are same-sex marriages tolerated, much less celebrated. That’s the difference.
At least Allberry isn’t being forced to marry (although there are so, so many questions about him as a single pastor). Roll back to the 1980s and I remember people who were gay and lesbian getting married because that was the expectation and/or they were told that getting married would “cure” them. Uhm, no, those marriages tended to break up spectacularly years down the road. (And then there was me, just not interested, not sure why I wasn’t interested, but I just wasn’t interested, and BOY after law school, I was surely not interested…)
Do I even have to mention the opposite-sex marriages that happened because the couple just wanted to sleep together, and again, some of those marriages went up in smoke when the sex wasn’t enough? But sleeping with someone outside of marriage is such a heinous sin, and if you’re sleeping with someone of the same sex, it’s not just so much worse but also the worst sin ever, blah blah blah.
I would suggest to Evangelicals that maybe they take a look at themselves and talk about how consent–yes CONSENT–is simply not discussed in their circles. There are more than a few who think that marriage is just a contract for sex whenever they want it however they want it and no matter what the other person thinks. CONSENT, folks. (And, why yes, I’ve been brought up short by consent discussions.)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Yep, when you see it, you can’t unsee it. When it’s in your knower, you can’t unknow it. New Calvinists may not burn dissenters, but they manipulate, intimidate, and dominate them to death … the spirit of Calvin is resting upon them.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Calvin’s brand of Christianity in Geneva was called “magisterial reform.” He may not have lit the fire under Servetus, but he controlled the magistrate who did. Nothing happened in Geneva – Calvin’s Christian Utopia – without his authorization and approval. It wasn’t utopia for Servetus and others who challenged his belief and practice.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
You can be a slum lord, run a Ponzi scheme, shut off an old woman’s natural gas line and evict her in the dead of winter; it’s all covered ‘under the blood’.
Get caught having unauthorized sex?
Your hash is settled.
Your goose is cooked.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Muff Potter,
Unfortunately, I noticed this kind of thing for over 50 years…. selective “piousness”… actually, it has been going on since Adam and Eve…. look at Dante’s “infernal”, which did allot for shaping the Western view of hell.. look at what sins Dante puts in his “inner circle” compared to modern American Christainity!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
i.e. “Our Duty to The Party.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The actual name for this is “Marriage of Continence”, i.e. a marriage entered into only to legalize the sex. They do not have a good track record.
Years ago, on a blog that’s disappeared into the mists of the Web, the blogger wrote about when the 1988 Edgar Whisenhaunt Rapture Scare (“88 Reasons the Rapture WILL Happen in 1988”) hit his local Bible college. There were so many Christian couples getting married out of the blue to beat Whisenhuant’s Date that they may have well have done a Moonie-style mass wedding. He wondered how many of those Beat-the-Rapture marriages survived.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Isn’t that a RAPIST’s mentality?
When the woman exists to service the Urrges in the Man’s Arreas, any time, any place, any method?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The core of the Calvinist system is the term sovereign grace. It means that essentially that humans beings are chosen before the world was created for either heaven or hell, for salvation or damnation without any decession making or deed good or bad on their part. They got this crazy notion from the writings of Augustine in the fourth century. In the end they succeed in corrupting the entire scripture with their gross twisted religious cult fantasy. For five hundred years they have been pushing this foul stench. Their assumptions do great harm to Christ’s body of believers. Whole churches have been corrupted unawares. Beware!