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This disgusts me.

It troubles me when mental health and spiritual health are placed as an either/or when it is a both/and. We have bodies, minds, and spirits. So, it makes sense all three need addressing. You would think that TVC would get that in this day in age….

This comment is solely about the generational demon issue. There are plenty of other problems in the rest of the story.

I’ve heard of the concept of generational demons before … in a fantasy novel that doesn’t even pretend to be reality (or truly Christian, though a couple characters are Christian). I may have also encountered it earlier in other reading not intended to be fictional when attending a church that was semi- a lot of things, including semi-charismatic.

Looking at a Google search, there are plenty of results. It also doesn’t surprise that the concept exists. Take certain other prior views that at least can be said to have biblical support (spirits associated with nations as in Daniel 10:13, casting out of demons, etc…) and extrapolate a bit, and the concept can make sense in those prior views, even though it seems weird to most people. I might be able to attempt arguments from within those views against it, but it would be less than overwhelmingly convincing to one who holds those views.

Here’s a sketch of such an attempt. A nation has a real current existence, a multi-generational family does not. We have lineages of ancestry and descent, but they branch and merge with every generation so the concept is without merit because each new married couple is a merger of two prior families, and the bible is quite clear about the two becoming one that is different from the parents. Multi-generational demons would need to be traced down all descendants of a single ancestor, not up all ancestors of a single living individual which is just impossible unless you spend a lot of time on it which none of these people ever do. (I spent two years researching just who all the descendants of one of my 1860 ancestors are, never mind trying to get enough information to have this sort of opinion on any one of them.) In the end it is better to think of guardian angels and personal tempters (a la C.S. Lewis’s Screwtape Letters).

So in my mind anyone holding to the multi-generational demon theory is self-identifying themself as in the “not thinking clearly” fringe edge of the believers in demons and casting out demons. If you don’t believe in those concepts, then a fringe edge of that concept is going to be even weirder.

Sigh.

1. The tracking of her cycle, especially on a family calendar, is just bizarre…sick, even.

2. Being required to stay with a family and essentially be their servant is also bizarre. And the father’s interest…creepy. a dangerous position.

3. The mental health issues are demons bit…in my experience, more common than you might think, though I’ll admit my personal experiences may be a bit skewed.

I’ve heard it preached the depression is a sin. Lovely to hear from someone diagnosed with major depression. After I left the cult church, I briefly attended a small local gathering. The beginning of the end for me (and sctually them, too) was when he got on a tangent that all mental health issues are demonic (an idea I grew up being taught) and that the way to ‘treat’ it was to ‘pound on it with the Word, like a hammer on stone, until it breaks.’ This caused a near mental meltdown for me, which, had I let it show on the outside, would have probably triggered an attempted exorcism. Whew.

The result is, now, I am very reluctant to talk to anyone about specifics on the mental stuff I deal with. I don’t trust that it won’t be used against me.

So many red flags!

What on earth is The Village Church thinking?

Forcing adults to live with families?! This is saying to people that being outside of a nuclear family is somehow…wrong?

Charting her period on the calendar is completely invasive and totally nuts.

The generational demon thing–I honestly thought Southern Baptists weren’t into that stuff. Has that changed? Seriously, I want to know.

The way her “friends” took her to the hospital. I have personal experience with this, except that I was actively suicidal and my friend had to tell me bluntly not to underplay it because I had a very bad habit of doing so. (Yes, I’d gotten discharged from the hospital because I told them I wasn’t as sick as I was.) My friend stood over me until I signed myself in, but I *was* sick. The way Allison’s friends treated her is vastly different.

The whole thing is crazy. If I were giving advice to TVC and Matt Chandler, I’d tell them to get out of the business of telling adults how to live their personal lives and PARTICULARLY to get out of the mental health business. If there is a person in their community who needs help, they should be referred to a physician or a licensed (by the state) psychotherapist for assistance. Church “counseling” will mess up people who are sane and can cause serious problems for the mentally ill.

oh my goodness….

spoken as someone who has grown up in christianworld with a lifetime of observations and direct experience, and who still exercises faith in God/Jesus/Holy Spirit my own way:

CHRISTIANS TAKE THEMSELVES SO GOSH DARN SERIOUSLY.

it’s just ridiculous.

all the characters in this story except for Allison demonstrate this perfectly.

discerning each other’s farts until they get the glamorous interpretation.

like “thou hath a hijacking generational demon”

…the remedy for which is of course, “thou shalt track thy period on the calendar overseen by thy male headship covering with a red pen and marking it thusly.”

pretty sure neither jesus nor mark twain ever said that one.

Just finished reading both of Anna’s posts.

First thought – tracking a monthly cycle is also a way to roughly determine when a woman is fertile or not. Wonder if that ever crossed Mr Inappropriate’s mind.

Second thought – I witnessed a loved one have a days-long psychotic episode, once. Demon possession was the furthest thing from my mind. (They received professional medical treatment and are in a much better place, now.) That this is what Allison was told is infuriating. The church has a rich history of misdiagnosis of demon possession. Case in point, the Salem witch trials.

Wild Honey:
First thought – tracking a monthly cycle is also a way to roughly determine when a woman is fertile or not. Wonder if that ever crossed Mr Inappropriate’s mind.

Sorry, I just can’t wrap my mind around this one. In such a conservative church, with such a focus on keeping one’s self away from sin and not causing another to stumble*, WHO ON EARTH thought it was a good idea for a man to know the monthly cycle of a woman with whom he was living to whom he was not married? And to see it every single time he looked at the family calendar?

(*Not saying I agree with this attitude, just that if you follow that line of thinking, this situation is clearly designed to fail.)

When I read things like this – ‘generational demons’ – I realise that people will believe any old bobbins if it’s presented in the right way. I feel like parts of the church are so bizarrely hungry for weird, flashy, dramatic stuff they’ll grab on to anything.

Allison was truly mistreated by these people, & the ‘track her period on the family calendar’ is making me nauseous…what possible decent explanation can there be for that? Anyone? Did the wife have to do the same? Any older female children? Yuck yuck yuck.

First, I an horrified at what Allison suffered. Appalling (alleged) behavior on the part of so-called Christian people.

Second, about demons. I’ve worked in Asia for nearly 30 years with people who regularly worship idols and make offerings to spirits (of trees, land, deceased ancestors). I’ve seen people possessed and seen entire extended families set free from oppression.

So a few things about that. In every case, deliverance from demons did not involve “trying harder” on the part of the possessed. Don’t these people read their Bibles?

Matthew 17- Jesus told his disciples they couldn’t cast out a certain demon because THEY didn’t have enough faith. Mark 9:29 tells the same story with Jesus saying, “this kind only comes out through prayer (or fasting and prayer).” Not prayer/fasting/faith on the part of the possessed person but on the part of the disciples doing the deliverance. A point those at TVC apparently missed.

Next, if you are demon possessed you know it. The a man among the tombs (Mark 5) knew he had a demon and told Jesus his name was, “Legion for we are many.” People who came to Jesus for deliverance knew they had demons. A friend of mine in Florida saw multiple demons walking around in her home- they left when she asked Jesus to be her Lord and savior and when other believers prayed with her immediately afterward to cast the demons out of the house. Done. And that’s what I’ve seen overseas- demons leave in Jesus name. They don’t hang around until we “try harder”. What a bunch of rot.

I heard nothing in Allison’s story to suggest demons, just depression. Which is something a whole lot of people in this broken world suffer from- and nothing to be ashamed of. I’m with Dee- church counseling programs with their lack of accountability and wrongly placed emphasis on “personal sin” are bad news.

Also see an uncanny resemblance between Allison’s story (police, forcing her to the hospital) and something which happened to me. I live overseas most of the time but when I was in the US recently a good friend was struggling with drug addiction and severe depression. I don’t know much about the US medical system so I phoned a mutual friend of ours and asked for advice how to proceed.

“Call the police and have him committed against his will,” came the reply. When I balked he replied, “Well then take him to the psych ward yourself and force him to sign in. I’ll help you out.” Since he was not offering to meet me there I understood he was offering some level of financial help.

But my addicted friend didn’t have medical insurance and a trip to the psych ward costs thousands of dollars. So instead I found a safe place for him to stay and searched for a medical doctor who would see him without insurance coverage. The good doctor we found works outside the system because he’s tired of health care schemes and just wants to treat patients. The doctor prescribed appropriate legal medication for my friend who has continued to see that doctor during the recovery process.

Later when I asked our mutual friend for some financial help for the doctor’s bills the answer came back, “I never said I’d give any money!” Looking back I guess he hadn’t. Just like the people in Allison’s life didn’t actually promise anything either. In both cases they implied their help and gave the impression they would “be there” but it was just talk. I struggle to understand how someone who calls themselves a committed Christian can glibly call the police and advocate a hospital stay with no thought to the long term consequence in another person’s life.

Back in the ’80s when I was a student at the Biola U school of mission, there was a class in the Talbot Seminary curriculum called “Spiritual Warfare” taught by Neil Anderson. One of the principal texts in this class was “War on the Saints” by Jessie Penn-Lewis.

I didn’t have a term for it at the time; the book was a form of gaslighting. It taught that it was not possible to distinguish between your own thoughts and thoughts that evil spirits might be inserting into your consciousness. It seems to me that worrying about this all the time could lead one into mental illness.

Telling someone “you have a demon and it’s your fault” is a IMO pyschological abuse and a pretext for controlling the person. I strongly suspect that in most cases, what the person has is not an alien spirit influence, but a bad pastor.

It’s instructive to look at the NT precedents for the idea that demons can oppress people. IIRC, one never sees the sufferer being blamed for the condition; those who make the diagnosis simply solve it by casting the spirit out.

If these people really were authorized successors of the apostles, they would simply “pray to the Father in Jesus’ name” and cast out the evil influence. But they can’t. Why listen to them at all?

Which is easier to say?

“You have an evil spirit!”

or

“Evil spirit, depart from this child of God!”?

But that you may know that the ministry team of The Village Church has authority on earth …”

But they don’t have authority on earth.

Fisher: demons leave in Jesus name. They don’t hang around until we “try harder”. What a bunch of rot.

I heard nothing in Allison’s story to suggest demons, just depression.

What a wonderful insight. I suspect folks on TWW have a range of ideas about what demons are, but you have spoken to the issue underneath these ideas. Jesus did not address every problem by casting out demons. He comforted and healed those who were suffering.

Many things have power over us only if we give them that power: food sacrificed to idols, circumcision, demons, to give three New Testament examples. Every hour I spend contemplating demons is an hour I do not spend loving God or just going about my business. Whom am I worshiping in that hour?

People with depression deserve access to helpful resources: physicians, psychiatrists, psychologists, loving relatives and friends, trustworthy prayer groups, yoga classes, nature… All of these things can assist with healing.

These hyper-controlling churches should stop practicing medicine without a license.

TS00,

I agree…..

Friend: These hyper-controlling churches should stop practicing medicine without a license.

Exactly. To my knowledge, most nouthetic counselors are not formally trained in counseling and are not licensed therapists. At best, they might be “certified” by a group like the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors by taking a few training courses at events or online … but should not be called counselors in the true sense of the word.

Clevin: that’s exactly what CCC was teaching a few weeks ago:
https://hudson.ccchapel.com/series/dirty-dozen/2019/06/09/the-demon-possessed-man/

The man with the demons obviously had them because he had continually given himself over to sin.

Was this a sermon about Tom Randall?

I completely agree with Dee… go on your gut…. there are so many “things” that are not “right”…. another old adage that comes to mind… “ where there is smoke there is fire”…..
TWW has been reporting on many instances of “smoke” coming from TVC….. there must one heck of a fire burning there…

Samuel Conner,

This was back when Neal Anderson and his “counseling” approach (heavy on generational demons) was coming into its own as well. Both “teachers” had recognition from conservative evangelical teachers instead of the lunatic fringe (think being slain in the Spirit and anointed prayer cloths), and their teaching caught on in all kinds of places. Some of it is downright bizaare, IMHO.

FW Rez: Sin in our lives needs to be dealt with, but we have a mediator for that.

And His name is Jesus! “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5).

Linn: Another issue that I see with the VC approach-is why do so many people need to be involved in the counseling of one person? How is there any confidentiality in that?

Group therapy can really work well in a lot of situations, many patients love it. I think it just depends on what we are talking about? Of course, all of my experience is with groups in a licensed therapy situation. I think maybe it’s the community, similar to AA? (of course, even AA only uses first names, right?)

I absolutely agree with you I wouldn’t want to go confessing every deep dark sin or terrible thing that had happened in a group setting! And I’m leery of things like this being linked to the church you actually attend, rather than a neutral ground with people from all over.

Samuel Conner: I didn’t have a term for it at the time; the book was a form of gaslighting. It taught that it was not possible to distinguish between your own thoughts and thoughts that evil spirits might be inserting into your consciousness. It seems to me that worrying about this all the time could lead one into mental illness.

Remember all those Puritan journals, page after page after page of navel-gazing sin-sniffing?

Linn,

Observing that school from a distance over decades, it has seemed to me that it tended to add classes or even programs that aligned with things that were currently trendy. Perhaps the embrace of NA was an early example of what seems to have become a “faddish” character of the evangelical church (in US, at least).

Trying to recall carefully, I think that “War on the Saints” may have been the only text in that class. There was also a syllabus that was basically an outline of the book with blanks for the students to fill in.

Much of the class was simply NA telling stories of his encounters with what he described as demonic powers inhabiting his counselees. It was pretty alarming and the fact that the professor was right there reporting his eye-witness testimony was intimidating.

I don’t know what to make of these stories, but I suspect that most of them were simply instances of dissociative phenomena. And NA’s approach to counseling people exhibiting these phenomena might have actually made the symptoms worse.

The fad did eventually pass, as far as I can tell, but it left its marks on the churches.

WILDHONEY: First thought – tracking a monthly cycle is also a way to roughly determine when a woman is fertile or not. Wonder if that ever crossed Mr Inappropriate’s mind.

That is such a disturbing thought! Ugh.

I have been a participant, volunteer, and observer in support programs for 25 years. They have addressed various hardships in peer-based, professional, religious, and secular settings. Every group has been confidential and optional. A hurting person grows strong among trustworthy people who let him/her decide what to say and when.

Forcing people to disclose their “sins,” and coercing them to accept “help,” makes everything worse.

If you want to protect someone, you don’t march them down Main Street and strip them naked.

I’ve heard this axiom for years, and I now I know it’s really the truth: “The church is the only army that shoots its wounded.”

What a terribly sad and painful experience for this woman. My prayer is that she gets the real help and treatment she needs. Mental illness is a disease; no different than cancer or diabetes. Would TVC suggest a person should stop their chemo and ‘chart their cycle’ so that they could rid themselves of their “cancer demon”? Or that by ‘trying harder’ they could exorcise that “diabetes demon” so that they would no longer need insulin? It’s all such utter nonsense. Depression can be successfully treated, but not by being under 24-hour surveillance by your church! THAT’s just creepy!

Demons do exist, but they don’t lurk behind every bush. This ‘generational demon’ concept seems totally foreign to scripture to me. The Bible makes it fairly clear that we are responsible for our own sins, NOT our ancestors’ sins. When it all boils down–it’s really about controlling people and making them feel that they are inadequate in need of ‘shepherding’. However, our adequacy and sufficiency is found in the One who loves us and gave Himself for us–not some church counseling group!

Root 66,

Exactly..

ishy: The generational demon thing is so strange for a New Calvinist church.

I’ve heard this from Begg’s church as well as Watermark, in Dallas, both of which I would consider neo-cal. They have both said it in the context of blaming someone for their sons, “you have this generational demon because you’re so bad”… which seems like a square circle, to me. I think it’s really just a way to heap double shame on someone, “you are bad and you come from bad.” Shame, then, grooms the victim to see the shamer as savior, “I’m so bad, and yet you want to help me!” The manipulation is very effective.

Root 66: Would TVC suggest a person should stop their chemo and ‘chart their cycle’ so that they could rid themselves of their “cancer demon”?

Plenty of churches and “good Christians” encourage people to pray instead of seeking medical treatment (it’s worldly, toxic, a government plot, etc.). Some Christians believe that illness is a sign of sin, and that True Christians never get sick. If you do get sick, it proves you’re not a True Christian.

This morally bankrupt thinking is a huge betrayal of any churchgoer with any condition from sniffles to a stage 4 malignancy.

ishy: The generational demon thing is so strange for a New Calvinist church.

I wonder …

It looks to me like among the things that distinguish many “new cal” churches (from the more ancient and conventional expressions of Reformed conviction), two of the more consequential features are their independence (and hence no recourse to supra-congregational appeal) and the control that is vested in the senior minister (and hence not even recourse to appeal within the congregation).

(both of these features are more characteristic of IFB than of traditional reformational churches.)

A common thread in these two features is the power that it gives to the senior leader.

IIRC, Mark Driscoll claimed the ability to discern spiritual realities. I think I recall reading that “teaching on the subject of demons” was part of the instructional agenda at MHC.

Perhaps one should not be surprised by what look like doctrinal discrepancies, particularly if these serve to enhance the power of the leadership. The ability to declare “you have a demon and it’s your fault” gives additional power to beat people down. From the perspective of a controlling leader, what’s not to like?

ishy: I still wonder if it was also used simply because Anna was female. I’ve heard some pretty extreme reasoning from New Cals about why women are not fully human like men

I am about this close to going on a rant about the divine feminine honestly, which is to say I agree with you.

I can roll with the idea of some sort of generational curse, which is really more like unresolved trauma manifesting itself out multiple generations…but thats not a ‘demon’.

Mega Moose: We all know how intimidating a hedge is.

By a totally weird coincidence, I was just reading about the National Hedgelaying Championship in the UK. These hedges have strength and integrity, unlike the ones my nutty old prayer group pals used to yammer about (“Father God! Hedge ’em in with thorns, Father God!”): https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/world/british-hedgerows/

The amount of time and energy these churches expend in an effort to control people boggles the mind. What a ridiculous waste of resources. They seem to be terrified of people making their own decisions and taking responsibility for themselves.

Headless Unicorn Guy: Puritan journals

I recall that colonial authorities in Massachusetts disapproved of younger single adults living alone. They were thought to be in moral peril and to lead others astray by giving people a place to drink and let their hair down. One unmarried man was tried repeatedly for having parties, and a judge finally ordered him to move in with a family.

Any church that makes single people move in with families has extremely dark motives. They are stigmatizing unmarried folks and stealing their autonomy.

Although I have been happily married for a long time, I really did treasure my single years. How happy and contented I was to have a cheap little apartment all to myself. Bliss.

dee: Driscoll also held demon trials.

Driscoll also told his Mars Hill flock that “I see things” … e.g., porno visions. Yeah, I would say there was demonic activity in his old ministry.

From the No Eden Elsewhere blog

Exhibit A. Part II of “From Recovery to Abuse:”

A couple of phrases that Alison told me that were said in the recovery groups stood out to me:
“WE CHOOSE TO LOVE YOU INSTEAD OF MAKING YOU FEEL LOVED.”
“WE’VE ALL BEEN ABUSED AND WE ARE ALL ABUSERS.”

The above could be the most Orwellian Christianese language I have heard.

Exhibit B. June 17 post, quoting Matt Chandler’s sermon about a member who ended his own life:

“Mo had all the weapons available to you, to me and to anyone else to combat the lies of the enemy in that moment. In a weak moment, he did not pick up those weapons, he believed in the lie and he took his own life.”

The “weapons” were apparently a couple of Bible verses and maybe a phone number. What utterly backward and cruel thinking.

Anna Keith’s posts have been great and I could spend the rest of my workday opining on the insanity of it all, including a crude remark about what the male ministers are doing with those sexual history spreadsheet tabs.

The Village Church glamorizes the idea of your “authentic community” fixing severe mental health issues. This is how the brokenness stuff works in actuality – only some people have to be broken and struggling. The rest are the elite Christians eager to add saving these people to their resume. How eager? See Alison’s story.

I think you see this in Anna Keith other’s post about The Village, where Matt Chandler addressed a young man on non-ministry staff who committed suicide:

http://noedenelsewhere.com/staff-member-at-the-village-church-committed-suicide-matt-chandler-shamed-him-from-the-pulpit/

Friend: Some Christians believe that illness is a sign of sin, and that True Christians never get sick. If you do get sick, it proves you’re not a True Christian.

Yeah – I grew up with the concept that if your prayer wasn’t answered, it’s because you either gad ‘secret’ sin or your faith was too weak. Either way, your fault. The cult church it’s was often also taught the lack of healing was a ‘faith failure’ and Christians should not be sick. Their church slogan was “Living above the storm.”

Imagine what this teaching did (secret sin, especially) to a child being molested. I still struggle with the concept that the problem is me…

ishy,

We have taught our offspring that enjoying one’s own company is a crucial ability, and living alone is a life skill—as is maintaining a happy marriage.

Is there any evidence that calling single people sinners is an effective way to promote marriage?

Friend:
ishy,
We have taught our offspring that enjoying one’s own company is a crucial ability, and living alone is a life skill—as is maintaining a happy marriage.

Is there any evidence that calling single people sinners is an effective way to promote marriage?

I doubt it. But my friends in New Calvinist churches say they have a much higher ratio of single men to single women, which is pretty much opposite every other church I’ve been to. And New Calvinist churches mostly depend on baiting men with holding positions in hierarchy, so men not having wives mean they don’t have power over someone and might leave.

Most of the single New Calvinist men I have known were both extremely arrogant and at the same time act like toddlers who can’t care for themselves at all. Some had mothers who still did everything for them. New Calvinism appealed to them because they didn’t want to be adults and were promised servant wives who were required to do anything they demanded.

I imagine Mohler wanted to keep his YRR happy and content through implied slave class ownership, not unlike the purpose for which the SBC was founded. I am just not sure Mohler knows much about the ratios of actual churches being in a seminary with mostly men.

In 1 Timothy 4:1 Paul warns believers not to get involved in “doctrines of demons”. Satan certainly wants to draw our attention away from Jesus and onto himself. I believe that the casting out of demons by Jesus and his disciples was to prove that Jesus was the Messiah and that he had all authority over Satan and his demons. There are no instructions in the epistles, directed at the church, to get involved in the casting out of demons. Our only instructions are to resist Satan and his lies, and to stand firm in our faith.

The work of Jesus on the cross takes care of all our sin problem… there is nothing we can add to that with “deliverances” or self-effort. Satan was conquered at the cross and we can live in complete FREEDOM from his power. “Greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world”. (1 John 4:4)

Mary27,

Thank you so much for posting this! 1 Tim. 4:1-5 paints a perfect picture of what is wrong in high-demand churches, as well as what can be right:

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will renounce the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the hypocrisy of liars whose consciences are seared with a hot iron. They forbid marriage and demand abstinence from foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, provided it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by God’s word and by prayer.

Friend: “WE’VE ALL BEEN ABUSED AND WE ARE ALL ABUSERS.”

This is SO telling.

I know when I first saw lists of ‘abusive’ behavior I did not fully understand and thought where does this turn from having a bad/meanish day to abuse. The answers are out there and clear, however, this ‘we are all abusers’ thing makes it really easy to dismiss other people’s pain. How terrible a thing to teach. I have had a rude or insensitive day, or moment, here and there, but I am NOT an abuser. Most people aren’t.

“I had one singular Unhappiness, which befel mee, in this Journey. I had largely written three Discourses, which I designed both to preach at Salem, and hereafter to print. These Notes were before the Sabbath stolen from mee, with such Circumstances, that I am somewhat satisfied, The Spectres, or Agents in the invisible World, were the Robbers. This Diaster had like to have disturbed my Designs for the Sabbath; but God helped mee to remember a great part of what I had written, and to deliver also many other Things, which else I had not now made use of. So that the Divel gott nothing!”

(Cotton Mather, Diaries, October 1693)

ishy: it’s all just excuses to do what they want

I definately think this every time I hear men describe how ‘all men’ want to do XYZ, XYZ being controlling and abusing and sexualizing women and young girls, constantly.

No, babe, that’s not everyone. that’s you.

Sowre-sweet Dayes,

Your experience is astoundingly similar to my own. We’ve been out for 3 years, but still sorting out all of the damages. Marriage may not recover and we all have scars.

We too saw the red flags, but never realized how many there were until after we left. But we were loyal, forgiving and willing to overlook evil. Until the body count grew too large, and I began to fear for the safety of my family as well as my own soul.

Don’t be too hard on yourself. The entire setup of the institutional church lends itself to mindless trust and submission, as well as the overlooking of misdeeds. One of the reasons many of us comment here is to use our hard won lessons to warn others to be more wary.

I pray for healing and peace for you and your family.

Hi, Mr. Jesperson!

Hank Hanegraaf has converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, which puts a pretty huge emphasis on humility. And no, not the kind of “worm-theology” humility CJ Mahaney favors. Rather, Orthodoxy grounds its theology of humility in the Scriptures; in the Church Fathers; and in the age-old writings of saints, ascetics, and mystics. This theology has a venerable pedigree, IOW.

All of this is to say that I think Hank has probably moved beyond the know-it-all arrogance you rightly object to. He is also very ill (cancer, I believe). I would suggest cutting him a lot of slack these days. 😀

Like you, I am definitely NOT a cessationist. I believe in deliverance ministry, exorcism, etc. etc. To tell the truth, I even incline toward the idea that there are “generational demons.”

But we have to be very, very careful with this stuff. That’s why my Church requires exorcists to be properly trained (with special training in psychology) and to be under the authority of the local bishop. There’s too much potential for people to go off half-cocked — playing with fire (so to speak), getting out of their depth, misidentifying neurochemical problems as “possession,” and so forth…not to mention seeing demons behind every door and under every bed.

There is *huge* potential for abuse, in other words.

The scenario described in the OP has “abuse” written all over it IMHO. It struck me as extremely disturbing. Creepy, even.

It also struck me as oddly familiar. It reminds me of the ecumenical (60% Catholic/40% Protestant) “charismatic covenant community” my goddaughter belonged to for 23 years. That community routinely used what I’ve come to call “weaponized deliverance ministry” to force questioning and recalcitrant members back into line.

If someone questioned the self-appointed-for-life “heads” and “elders,” he or she was subjected to “deliverance sessions” to drive out the spirit(s) of rebellion, divisiveness, or whatever. Untrained “deliverance ministers” — who did not have Clue One — would claim to be able to identify the specific evil spirits oppressing the questioning member. More often than not, the “spirits” these ministers “identified” conveniently matched up with “traits and behaviors the Self-Appointed Demigod Elders would like to suppress.”

It was a recipe for extreme spiritual abuse, and it left broken lives in its wake.

One need not be a strict cessationist to be wary of this stuff. It’s very, very dangerous, in a whole host of ways.

ishy: I am just not sure Mohler knows much about the ratios of actual churches being in a seminary with mostly men.

Last I heard, Mohler was blaming single women for being single.

He thinks all of us single women deliberately avoided marriage because we’re obsessed with climbing a career ladder.

I don’t know if he still does it or not, but a few years ago, Mohler was publishing (with much glee) studies to his blog that claim that single people lead miserable, lonely lives and will die much sooner than married people.

I am like, dude, if you’re trying to promote marriage, I guess that is OK, but don’t do so at the EXPENSE of single adults, you dolt.

(And, btw, those “married people live happier and longer” studies have been debunked by Bella DePaulo. You can find her articles at Psychology Today’s ‘Living Single’)

Is Singleness a Sin? by Camerin Courtney
-(A Response to Al Mohler’s Anti-Singles Bashing)
August 11, 2004
http://www.unmarriedamerica.org/solo-essays/singleness-sin.htm

dee: … on the subject of demon possession which, in short summation, is ‘Don’t make too much of it.” …

Someone once said that heresy is an overemphasis of a long-neglected truth. Chandler and his generational demon teaching is making too much of the demonic. Scripture says that which comes against the church and individual believers falls in three categories: the world, the flesh, and the devil. The world and the flesh are doing such a great job getting us off course in the American church that the devil seldom gets involved. We will know it when he does.

Daisy:As far as you not liking IHOP, I hope this doesn’t mean you don’t like pancakes.

I mean that you don’t not like pancakes. That you like them. Disliking pancakes would be positively un-American. 🙂

GreekEpigraph: Generational demons? Oh yes, that was taught by Bill Gothard in the Basic Life Principles seminars in the late 80s as the reason you didn’t want to adopt kids – they’d bring “generational demons” into your home. That was before adoption became a “good Christian thing” to do

Several years ago, Christian host Pat Robertson made some really insensitive comments about adopted children. He was telling his Christian audience to avoid adopting, because adopted kids are messed up or something.

Been awhile since I’ve seen that, I can’t remember the details, let me see if I can find that on You Tube.

Outrageous: Pat Robertson Adoption Comments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKiYEXmdR0U

There’s also another video on You Tube with this heading:

“Pat Robertson: Don’t Adopt Sexually Molested Children, Could Grow Up “Weird””

Daisy,

Thanks Daisy. It’s coming up to dinner time here, but now I’m craving pancakes! 🙂

Here’s a thought about TVC and their “disturbing counseling practices.” New Calvinism is starting to run out of steam for folks like Chandler. He has always been on the extreme side of the new reformation which came from hanging out with Driscoll and Acts 29 (he is now President of Acts 29). Their macho-man approach to ministry and gospel-centered coffee just doesn’t appear to be appealing to the young, restless and reformed as it once did. They are getting restless for more, so some of their leaders are dabbling in the charismatic and other gimmicks to keep the masses in their pews. Counseling your generational demons, ranting about a staff member who committed suicide as “sinful and selfish”, chastisement from the pulpit about reading watchblogs, etc. will sure get the pew’s attention. Is the demonic at work there? Sure sounds like it … or perhaps it’s just flailing attempts in the flesh to keep TVC from unraveling.

Mega Moose:
I often wonder if the people involved in collecting these confessions and administering “discipline” actually realize exactly what they’re doing, or if they genuinely believe this is how Christ would have them help people?

I know a couple of people semi-personally who were in the process of going into biblical counseling. For them, it did seem motivated from a genuine desire to help people. But hearing so many stories coming out on the other end, I have to wonder where along the road it crosses from genuinely helping people to manipulating and controlling them into doing what you think will help (whether or not it actually turns out to be helpful). And isn’t this a balance/fine line we have to navigate in so many other contexts, too? Parenting, politics, even the debate over the role of free will and sovereignty of God in an individual’s salvation.

The road to hell may be paved with good intentions, but that doesn’t change the destination.

Lea,

What about us over-60 singles like me? Sorry, I am laughing too hard.

ishy:I’ve heard some pretty extreme reasoning from New Cals about why women are not fully human like men, and so it wouldn’t be unexpected if they added more theology to that since ESS failed.

If only they knew that the source of this is a pagan theology! I wish I could cite a source, but I distinctly remember learning in a Greek class that the ancient Greeks thought that women were simply incomplete men, with one of the evidences being that women tend to have a lower body temperature than men. Thus, they weren’t “baked” as long in the womb, and came out inferior. Stands in sharp contrast to “in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them,” no?

Again, read your history, people.

dee: No wonder people get confused. There was another guy who used to teach that you shouldn’t buy antiques for the same reason. I can’t remember his name.

Part Two.

Pat Robertson Says Demons Attach Themselves to Clothes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDifatTTOqU

Friend,

My lifelong singleness that I resigned myself to at 40 and now cherish, has allowed me the privileges of 15 years missionary service, ten years of raising my sister’s kids when she had lifestyle challenges (it could have been foster care), helping with the founding of a Spanish church plant..,now I cherish my networks, friendships, and, most of all, the God who gave it all to me. I think Mohler and his ilk need a refresher on 1 Cor 7 and the life of Paul.

https://myonlycomfort.com/2019/08/13/accusing-an-elder/

I thought this article was worth sharing. It puts a whole new spin on protecting the innocent and injured.

ishy: I’ve heard some pretty extreme reasoning from New Cals about why women are not fully human like men

Yeah, like women are mere “derivatives” of God’s image.

“It may be best to understand the original creation of male and female as one in which the male was made in the image of God in a direct, unmediated and unilateral fashion, while the female was made image of God through the man and hence in a indirect, mediated and derivative fashion.” – Bruce Ware

Max,

????????? What was he smoking?

Daisy,

It is disgusting comments like this from “evangelical” leaders that confirm that I refuse to be called an “evangelical”…

Daisy: …really insensitive comments about adopted children. He was telling his Christian audience to avoid adopting, because adopted kids are messed up or something.

The first known adoption in my family happened in the early 1860s. Half of my generation, and half of the next generation down, are adopted under many different circumstances. The struggles of some adoptees are also found in biological families. The superstition that adopted children carry demons is completely evil, based on xenophobia, ignorance about child development, and a ridiculously overstated value of the marriage bed. Still, it’s probably better that Christians with such crude ideas refrain from adopting.

Daisy,

Jesus of Nazareth was adopted.

Linn:
Lea,

What about us over-60 singles like me? Sorry, I am laughing too hard.

Absolutely you should join in the fun 😉

Linn,

Linn, since my friend died, i’ve been very much in reflective mode. I think your life sounds like it has been very full.

Clevin: Oy. Driscoll….

You need to see the talk he gave his staff on spiritual warfare… In it he even talks about intentionally running his car over a pedestrian he believed to be a demon. He says he ran the car at the “demon”, and when he looked back, the “demon” had disappeared.

REALLY.

Pt.1 https://youtu.be/LUePEmUA6uE

Pt.2 https://youtu.be/JH65XFaW6ao

Pt.3 https://youtu.be/dVGfBvC6-zU

Pt.4 https://youtu.be/yXf2VXhqHJo

Wait..wait. wait.
Uhmmm.

ishy: Most of the single New Calvinist men I have known were both extremely arrogant and at the same time act like toddlers who can’t care for themselves at all. Some had mothers who still did everything for them. New Calvinism appealed to them because they didn’t want to be adults and were promised servant wives who were required to do anything they demanded.

This is straight out of South Park —
They’re Cartmans who want to marry a new Cartman’s Mom!

Daisy: Oh. blushing. When I see “IHOP,” I think of International House of Pancakes.

From 1978 to 1982, I worked at their Corporate HQ in North Hollywood.
Their management was just as screwed up as that of the Christianese IHOP – Dilbert without the laughs.
Most of my department all found other jobs and walked out at the same time. Me included.

Daisy: I think I remember Stone saying on one show years ago – over ten years, maybe – that demons can attach themselves to vases or something, so he advised watchers of his show not to buy trinkets (like vases) when they go on trips to foreign countries.

I had something similar happen to me in 2010; I acquired a fantasy print (a pinup cobra lady) at FurCon 2010 and had a bout of depression shortly afterwards. My SIL was under the spell of a Spiritual Warfare type and KNEW there a Demon had piggybacked on the picture.

I know what caused the depression, and there was nothing supernatural about it. The circumstances where I acquired the pic paralleled those of when I broke up with my only girlfriend closely enough to trigger a flashback at full emotional intensity.

And I didn’t need an exorcist; I wrote out the depression into a 10,000-word Magic Realist fantasy novella. I also changed my will and estate planning to specify where my Intellectual Property went to (my writing partner); Fandom has a lot of horror stories about Intellectual Property (such as writing and art) going to family heirs who burned it all as “Say-Tann-Ic”.

Friend: And let’s give a shout-out to good ol’ Robert Morris, who told members of Gateway that they had to tithe, or demons would go inside them through little doors.

The tithe as a protection racket.

Both PA Dutch and Appalachian lore are full of Witch-Men and Conjure-Men who use their Powers as a Protection Racket, putting Hexes and siccing Familiar Spirits on any and all who don’t give them what they want.

Friend: let’s give a shout-out to good ol’ Robert Morris, who told members of Gateway that they had to tithe, or demons would go inside them through little doors

Oh yeah … Mr. Morris, who called blogs like this one “Satan’s Hit List” … Whew, what a crew we have in American pulpits!

Linn: I think Mohler and his ilk need a refresher on 1 Cor 7 and the life of Paul.

I think they need to sit down and shut up! That’s how tired I am of hearing what they have to say.

Lea,

Love it! (the song, that is). Lea, I’m reflective, too, since I’m getting close to retirement age. My health is fairly good, and since I won’t be able to afford that yearly cruise, I will be bouncing around church and community as long as I can. One of my grandmothers spent the last 15 years of her life staring at the TV, complaining about how bored she was. The other was still playing a mean game of Scrabble at 95. I’d like to be more like the second, if God permits (by the way, grandma number one may have been depressed-it was before doctors worried about stuff like that). I do attend more funerals now than weddings, which also makes me more reflective.

Mr. Jesperson: demon possession must be a real thing or else the whole story about the man with a legion of them and the pigs that committed suicide is just a fairy tale.

I don’t know how to take literally the story of the Gadarene swine: I’m still left wondering what it means. This does not tear a hole in my faith. The Bible is about ancient places and societies, and some of it is just really strange.

In a sermon a few weeks ago, the preacher said the story shows the weakness of demons rather than the strength we so fear. Perhaps tricked by Jesus or surprised by panic-stricken hogs, the demons drown.

More important, the man was healed.

Nathan Priddis,

This line of theology also misses that Christians are adopted (see Rom. 8:13-17, John 1:12, Gal 3:26-29; Gal 3:4-7, and Eph 1:4-5. They are denying one of the fundamental doctrines of the faith, that God in His mercy adopted us as His children when we believed in His Son. We don’t get to address God as Father because we deserve it, but because of His mercy revealed to us. Human adoption is one of the greatest testimonies of God’s love to us, especially when it is done by Christians. My church has two missionary families who work in Africa. One has three adopted African children, the other has a sibling set of three. They are happy, well-adapted children who love their parents, and are a testimony to the love of God for the fatherless (parentless).

Bridget: I think they need to sit down and shut up! That’s how tired I am of hearing what they have to say.

No kidding, huh? They are the worst kind of self-appointed ‘menagawd’, who seem to believe they are owed some sort of deference, indeed, reverence. They think their words are important and somehow godly.They have nothing but my disgust.

dee: Didn’t Jesus send a bunch of demons into a herd of pigs?

He sure did.
Damn shame too.
All that fine Prosciutto.

Guest:
The Bible is replete with a plethora of stories of spirits, both angelic, and demonic. Should we disregard the implications?

Are the implications that angels and demons are real? What do we do with that knowledge?

On the topic of the unknown, I’m not sure if you are a new or returning Guest.

Max: Whew! After reading above comments about the multitude of pulpit wackos out there, I think I need a nouthetic counselor! Nah, I’ll just go pray after while.

I’m with ya – this thread is alarming. I honestly would have never believe there was so much wackiness within Christianity, even with all of my concerns.

Yes, I have heard of the generational demon idea before. It was one of the crazy ideas the pastor of a previous church began to espouse when he became unhinged. There were demons for everything. Those of us who thought they were nuts supposedly had “The Jezebel Spirit.” Incidentally, confession of sins was a big part, as well. Reasonable, mature believers began to disappear from the congregation and the most unbalanced persons in the church were elevated. Another church in our city was really big on all the demonism stuff. They held weekly exorcisms that people I knew went to. Just bizarre stuff; the Toronto Blessing, “prophecies,” and so on. People who had no idea what they were doing were playing games with other peoples’ lives and emotions.

It was after this that I decided the time had come to step back from the church world. After some time off I tried a few other churches but once your eyes are open, the red flags are so clear and I was finished dealing with them.

SiteSeer,

PS This all happened at a Baptist church.

Fisher: So a few things about that. In every case, deliverance from demons did not involve “trying harder” on the part of the possessed. Don’t these people read their Bibles?

This is a way to keep people trapped in a struggle against *nothing* which they can never win, which keeps them distracted, confused, shame-filled and dependent.

“Trying harder” is not what the Bible teaches. “My yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Mega Moose,

Sowre-sweet Dayes,

Welcome, Mega Moose and Sowre Sweet Dayes. Sorry to hear that you, too, suffered at the hands of your churches. I think most of us here share something similar and understand.

SiteSeer: This is a way to keep people trapped in a struggle against *nothing* which they can never win, which keeps them distracted, confused, shame-filled and dependent.

“Trying harder” is not what the Bible teaches. “My yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Yes. This. Loudly.

It also causes them to doubt there on minds and ability to trust their own senses…creates an atmosphere of fear that breeds dependence on the one who can see….
Reminds me of Bob Larson who was big in the demon deliverance thing in the 90s and early 00s. Watched a few times on TBN and it messed with me…

SiteSeer,
So true.

TS00,

This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Friend: How do we know that? I assumed that for a long time, but now I wonder why we are so ready to say demons have eternal life, or even an ability to go from place to place.

Or anything else, for that matter. There is so little said or explained about them yet some people have developed elaborate theologies all about them. I always picture when people are performing an exorcism or praying against and casting out demons, what if your spiritual eyes could be opened and you saw… that there were none there, after all. It just seems silly to be expending energy on something you don’t even have any way of knowing is involved. But that’s just me.

SiteSeer,

Thanks snd I’m sorry to hear that (meaning you’ve ecperienced it, too).

Reminder that prior to putting out the ESV, Crossway’s claim to fame (and indeed what put it in a financial position to undertake its own Bible translation) was as publisher of topselling ‘spiritual warfare’ fantasies penned by Frank Peretti. ‘This Present Darkness’, ‘Piercing the Darkness’, etc. were once Crossway’s bread and butter!

Wild Honey,

Aristotle is frequently misquoted. In Book 1, section 20 of his “On the Generation of Animals” while discussing the mechanics of reproduction, he wrote “Now a boy is like a woman in form, and the woman is as it were an impotent male, for it is through a certain incapacity that the female is female, being incapable of concocting the nutriment in its last stage into semen (and this is either blood or that which is analogous to it in animals which are bloodless owing to the coldness of their nature)”.

Similarly, Empedocles is misquoted in his discussion on embryology. He says “the differentiation into the two sexes is described in terms of potential: the warmth of the womb determines whether the embryo will be male or female, cf. fr B 65: ‘They were poured in pure places; some met with cold and became women’, fr. B 67: ‘For the male was warmer . . . this is the reason why men are dark, more powerfully built, and hairier’.

Aquinas quotes Aristotle in his Summa and says (again regarding reproduction) “1: As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence; such as that of a south wind, which is moist, as the Philosopher observes (De Gener. Animal. iv, 2). On the other hand, as regards human nature in general, woman is not misbegotten, but is included in nature’s intention as directed to the work of generation. Now the general intention of nature depends on God, Who is the universal Author of nature. Therefore, in producing nature, God formed not only the male but also the female.”

Jesus’ servant scriptural ministry of reconciliation, still exist today.

Nathan Priddis: But also the curse, preventng him from sitting down on the throne.

Getting very tangential to the OP, but I want to interact with this.

Had Jesus “ascended the throne” in Jerusalem, He very likely would have (unwillingly) presided over an earlier version of the war that started 36 years later and that led to the destruction of the Temple and the deaths of large numbers of people. This is pretty plainly the concern of Jesus’ adversaries in Jerusalem (Jn 11:48-50) and John comments that they were right, that Jesus died for the sake of the nation and also for the diaspora (Jn 11:51-52; it may be relevant that large numbers of diaspora Jews took part in, and died in, the AD132-5 Bar Kochba rebellion, but did not in the AD66-73 war).

I think this helps to understand why Jesus seems to have regarded it as necessary that He die at Jerusalem, at Passover (many pilgrims would be present to observe) and at the hands of the Romans by means of the method the Romans used to make public examples of notorious criminals, but only after being acclaimed king. There were many opportunities to be killed prior to that last Passover, but Jesus always eluded capture until “the right moment”. He really seems to have been trying to accomplish something specific.

It also helps to understand Pilate’s insistence on the notice that designated Jesus “King of the Jews” — a warning to Israel that Rome would not tolerate an autonomous Judean kingdom. Israel seems to have “gotten the message”, though the next generation would forget (as happened so many times during the period of the Judges).

It looks to me like Jesus voluntarily surrendered to arrest, trial and execution in order to maintain the peace (the death of Israel’s King aborts the rebellion that many were waiting for [cf Lk 24:21]) and so save many from violent death. And this was successful, for a generation.

Obviously, the New Testament writers also see larger implications, beyond Israel, of Jesus’ sacrifice (for example I Jn 2:2). But I think it’s helpful to notice the historical particularities of what Jesus seems to have regarded Himself to be doing.

I don’t see Jesus “not taking the throne” as the outworking of an ancient curse on an ancestor so much as a manifestation, as Paul says in Romans 5:6-8, of God’s love for His people.

SiteSeer: Another thing was “territorial demons” that supposedly were in charge of geographical areas. The church was forming groups to go to “strategic locations” to pray and cast them out, and then supposedly it was going to free whole cities to become Christian.

An odd thing about this “territorial demons” business (that IIRC is very thinly sourced in just a couple of texts in the OT prophets, is that this many have been part of the Hebrew world-view as evidenced in earlier parts of the OT.

I am dependent on Michael Heiser’s analysis for this. He doesn’t strike me as a crank. The thumbnail sketch (following Heiser) is that

i) the ancient Hebrews saw three episodes in the decline of humanity (unlike us moderns, who attribute all of the problems to one episode — the Gen 3 “Fall”). These 3 were a) the “Fall” itself, b) angelic intrusion (Gen 6), c) the Babel incident and its aftermath (Gen 10-11).

ii) after (or perhaps before) the nations were separated, YHWH assigned the governance of them to subordinate spiritual powers, the “sons of God”. Heiser thinks this is what Dt 32:8 is about, that God delegated governance of most of humanity (the Gentiles) to subordinate powers, but that He kept Israel for His own direct rule — His “portion”.

iii) But the “powers”/”sons of God” did not govern the Gentiles well. Heiser thinks this is what Psalm 82 is about. At the end, the psalmist envisions a future in which God will rule over all the earth (his “portion”/”inheritance” will include the Gentiles.

Heiser also thinks that Paul’s missionary journeys are a reclamation for YHWH of the nations listed in the Genesis 10 “Table of Nations”, a reclamation envisioned in Ps 82.

—-

back to the present, does this reading support “warfare prayer” against “territorial spirits”. I have no idea, but I’ll note the following:

* Paul seems to reckon that Jesus defeated/disarmed “the powers”.

* If it is valid to identify “the powers” with the gods of the ancient pagan “pantheon”, these were greatly weakened by the collapse of paganism within the territories of the old Roman Empire, that became European Christendom. The situation Paul speaks of in Eph 6 is not identical to ours, which is more a situation of widespread secularism rather than widespread polytheism.

* polytheism is still prevalent in some parts of the world — Paul might reckon “the powers” to still hold some sway there.

I strongly suspect that the powers that oppose righteousness in our day, at least in the parts of the world that have a christian past, are mostly human authorities who are serving selfish agendas.

SiteSeer: Another thing was “territorial demons” that supposedly were in charge of geographical areas.

That sounds straight out frank peretti’s novel.

SiteSeer: I always picture when people are performing an exorcism or praying against and casting out demons, what if your spiritual eyes could be opened and you saw… that there were none there, after all.

That would make a good novel!

Jeannette Altes: *hugs*

Personally, I don’t have trust issues, I do have some experience with liars. I think it’s natural to be wary. I wish you the best in sorting through it.

Catholic Gate-Crasher: Well, experienced exorcists could provide you with some pretty convincing (and chilling) evidence. But who needs that silly evidence stuff anyway?

I respect the Catholic approach to exorcism, which seems to be very cautious, and done as a last resort. But isn’t it also highly confidential? I haven’t seen a lot of published accounts provided by exorcists. Do you know of any “silly evidence” that could improve our understanding?

The issue with the wider church is that nobody even bothers to read the Cliff Notes of Exorcism for Dummies. One time I told church buddies that our toddler had the sniffles. “I’m tired of us being under Satanic attack!” my friend cried out. “Satan only does this to us because we are so faithful!”

As a member of a college fellowship, I sat outside a room where a Baptist 18-year-old “cast demons” out of a Presbyterian 20-year-old. The Baptist guy lamented that he had a “gift” of discerning demons, and pointed out the kids in my dorm who were possessed. He once accused me of witchcraft. Everyone in the Christian fellowship believed this terrifying young man, who was normally a pleasant soul.

When the proudly uneducated leaders of the local mega talk about demons, it’s in the name of controlling, shaming, and extracting money (Robert Morris at Gateway). They never pick on powerful or cooperative folks.

All of this is very 1692, and not of the Holy Spirit.

(I posted my anecdotes awhile back, but they seem relevant to this thread.)

Nick Bulbeck,

Absolutely! I have been thinking the same — that Jesus’ challenge to his adversaries about John’s baptism, “from men” or “from God”, is so relevant to our day. The authority of (I suspect) the great majority of these groups is “from men”, not “from God.”

Samuel Conner,

I’ve just started a full-stack Javascript course. The first wee module involves making a random quote generator; this will be simple enough, but I should in due course be able to write one that will send post requests. I’d do them under my own name, obviously (or maybe as Mr Dummarse, who is a known alias and who shares my avatar fotie). But it might provide modest entertainment for Wartburgers for whom the hours weigh heavily.

When Jesus returns, all sin and sadness will be finished forever.

All followers of Jesus have a part in the work of the kingdom.

We can both show, and tell the good news about Jesus.

We tell the good news when we share how Jesus came to save.

We also show the presence of the good news when we live right according to the scriptures, love others, help suffering people, and work to fix injustice.

Jerome,

Ah, what I missed by despising ‘christian’ fantasy, or christian books period. Not much of a fan of fiction period, but if I do read it, it has to be good. Nothing Crossway has produced would qualify. I’m not sure I realized how much these books, and now podcasts shape people’s minds. Brainwashing, anyone?

Guest,

k

Dee, yet the fields Jesus talked about are still white with harvest.

Guest,

The bot has learned to address people by their first name!

Perhaps next it will learn how to “reply” to individual comments?

Samuel Conner,

In certain contexts, ‘bots’ are disagreeable parasites.

And … a Luther insult:

“You are desperate, thorough arch-rascals, murderers, traitors, liars, the very scum of all the most evil people on earth. You are full of all the worst devils in hell – full, full, and so full that you can do nothing but vomit, throw, and blow out devils!”

From Against the Roman Papacy, an Institution of the Devil, pg. 277 of Luther’s Works, Vol. 41

Friend: As a member of a college fellowship, I sat outside a room where a Baptist 18-year-old “cast demons” out of a Presbyterian 20-year-old. The Baptist guy lamented that he had a “gift” of discerning demons, and pointed out the kids in my dorm who were possessed. He once accused me of witchcraft.

Just like Zulu Isangomas in a Smelling-Out of Witches, walking through the multitude marking Witches (for immediate impalement) with a flick of their fly-whisks.

Headless Unicorn Guy,

Indeed. Also interesting to note that part of the membership paperwork you fill out asks what your favorite authors are. Who has helped you on you spiritual journey. They are looking to see who is in lock step with them from the onset. They know what their “approved” reading list is.

SiteSeer: It was one of the crazy ideas the pastor of a previous church began to espouse when he became unhinged. There were demons for everything.

Including the DEMON of burned-out lightbulbs?
(My writing partner told me of encounters with one Mighty Spiritual Warrior(TM) who actually WAS that far gone.)

Samuel Conner:
The “Guest” bot is back.

It would be fun, if possible, to redirect these to a subthread and have a conversation between “Guest” and the “ergofabulous.org” ‘Luther insult engine’. I visited that yesterday and learned that it is presumptuous of me to not take up the occupation of a herdsman.

Lol!! Must try this.

Lutheran humor rocks.

Friend: I respect the Catholic approach to exorcism, which seems to be very cautious, and done as a last resort. But isn’t it also highly confidential? I haven’t seen a lot of published accounts provided by exorcists. Do you know of any “silly evidence” that could improve our understanding?

The issue with the wider church is that nobody even bothers to read the Cliff Notes of Exorcism for Dummies. One time I told church buddies that our toddler had the sniffles. “I’m tired of us being under Satanic attack!” my friend cried out. “Satan only does this to us because we are so faithful!”

As a member of a college fellowship, I sat outside a room where a Baptist 18-year-old “cast demons” out of a Presbyterian 20-year-old. The Baptist guy lamented that he had a “gift” of discerning demons, and pointed out the kids in my dorm who were possessed. He once accused me of witchcraft. Everyone in the Christian fellowship believed this terrifying young man, who was normally a pleasant soul.

When the proudly uneducated leaders of the local mega talk about demons, it’s in the name of controlling, shaming, and extracting money (Robert Morris at Gateway). They never pick on powerful or cooperative folks.

All of this is very 1692, and not of the Holy Spirit.

(I posted my anecdotes awhile back, but they seem relevant to this thread.)

Yes, I agree with everything you have said. Trained exorcists must proceed with extreme caution. Most cases turn out to be psychological, not spiritual. Actual possession is rare. And yes, confidentiality must be maintained. Several cases have become famous — including the one that inspired the movie *The Exorcist* — but even famous cases usually do not reveal real names.

I agree with everything else you say, too. I have a Word of Faith neighbor who once nonchalantly told me that I “have a demon.” She said this as matter-of-factly as if she’d been telling me that I had a smudge on my nose. This is the same neighbor who claims Jesus speaks to her and tells her which wallpaper border to buy. She’s into Health and Wealth, Toronto Blessing, demons under every bed, and the whole nine yards. Oy, don’t get me started, LOL.

Shadowfax: They have an “inventory” on record for everyone that they can then hold over their heads if the occasion arises. Is it any wonder that things are covered up from the top down?

This is not the first time I suspected there is an Epstein-like blackmail system at work within some of these so-called churches. Or maybe they are not so-called. Maybe control and power is what the church is all about, and I just need to be glad I escaped.

Lea,

I see we are of one mind.

I was swithering over whether to go and get any wine to have with the fish tonight; I’ll take your comment as A Sign!

Headless Unicorn Guy: Including the DEMON of burned-out lightbulbs?
(My writing partner told me of encounters with one Mighty Spiritual Warrior(TM) who actually WAS that far gone.)

It really was a “thing” at the time. At a Campus Crusade for Christ large gathering event that I attended in the ’80s, Josh McDowell recounted a tale of a campus speaking event. During his presentation, one of the fluorescent ceiling lights was intermittently failing, which was annoying and distracting. JM said that he growled at the lighting fixture “Aww, Come on!” (or something like that; memory is dim) as a way of “rebuking the spirit”, and the light stopped flickering.

Don’t know what to make of stories like this. Maybe I am credulous; it never occurred to me that Anderson may have been making it up.

I’m not as credulous as I used to be; my present default is much closer to cynicism and suspicion. It’s not a happy thought that this posture seems to be warranted. It’s shame that people who reputedly have this kind of authority don’t spend more time in hospital wards.

I’m familiar with the generational demon theory, Bill Gothard was teaching this back in the 70s and 80s, he argued that because of the inability to track them on adopted children, families should not adopt.

dee,

I am what I am, and God has not called me as of yet to start a blog, at least not one that would be read. I write at length because I think things through very thoroughly. I do not agree with everything you write, and your essays are even longer than my comments and I think there are things out of order everywhere in the body of Christ that can be made better. You appear to enjoy the attention of getting hundreds of comments on your blog posts. I am just expressing myself, just as Law Professor does. I think very much like he does, except I try to be a little less abrasive with my wording. I noticed that here he got falsely accused of being a sexist, and then I have not seen him back commenting. You did not say anything about that.

Pride always comes before a fall. I appreciate what you do and care enough that when I think something is going too far I call it out. My conscience tells me to do so and so I follow that. I think you need to come up with a better response to people you disagree with than “go start your own blog.” It comes across as you asking people to leave. If everyone took you up on your offer, where would all of the comments go? Your blog would look as dead as most of the others. This blog has become another echo chamber on the Internet. It is common on all of these for the insiders to tell the outsider to leave, you are not welcome! I think you are doing the same thing and it is not consistent with good Christian practice which requires all of us to humble ourselves and admit that we can be wrong at times. And I have been brave enough to comment in the public with my real name and stand up to a billionaire con-man, or have you forgotten that? You never did publish the article I wrote on it at your request…

Nick Bulbeck: But it might provide modest entertainment for Wartburgers for whom the hours weigh heavily.

And hopefully the latest Fitba’ news?

Nathan Priddis,

Oops.
Forgot to restate this is Joseph’s lineage. Mary is decended from Bathsheba’s younger son Nathan.

This curse is directly connected to lines of the Preist that attempted, and temporally succeeded in siezing the throne. (Sons of Maccabee) Also, why Jerusalem was upset when the Magi arrived out of nowhere asking to see he who was born King of the Jews.

The House of David was supposed to have been extinct.

ishy: I would like to see a bot here that only quotes verses that New Calvinists ignore…

1 Chronicles 26:18
At the Parbar on the west there were four at the highway and two at the Parbar.

Catholic Gate-Crasher: There’s too much potential for people to go off half-cocked — playing with fire (so to speak), getting out of their depth, misidentifying neurochemical problems as “possession,” and so forth…not to mention seeing demons behind every door and under every bed.

There is *huge* potential for abuse, in other words.

You do not have to tell me about this stuff. I am the biggest critic of neo-pentecostal and neo-charismatic stuff as 90-99% of the “supernatural stuff” is fake and has been since almost the beginning. What is left is real and it has been powerful in my life. So skepticism is good, but a lot of the criticism on this blog goes beyond that and appears to throw out everything in a way that is practically Cessastionist. That I would not agree with because if you take that and apply it to the Bible, you end up with Thomas Jefferson cutting parts out that he did not like. Jesus was no Cessastionist nor were his Apostles. Like it or not, some supernatural things are real. My Christian walk started with them so they are natural to me. To others it is very hard to pull your head out of Modernist Philosophy which poo-poos everything that is not simply natural. The Baptists came out of this era and so there is a mixing of the scripture with Modern philosophy in their theology and that is not good.

And I well know that exorcism is not something to be done lightly, ever. This is because what Jesus says in Luke 11:25, “When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and finding none it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when it comes, it finds the house swept and put in order. Then it goes and brings seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there. And the last state of that person is worse than the first.” I have seen this happen up close and in person. A close friend of mine was prayed over by me and my pastor. He was warned by both of us multiple times that his evil companions would try to come back. He said pray for he was ready. He wasn’t. For about two weeks the man was so severely changed for the better that my jaw dropped. Then, because he was unwilling to do certain things he let them back. He is now far worse than when I knew him before this. He had managed to stay out of mental hospitals for many years, but now he has been back at least twice that I know of. He is now divorced and has more mental illnesses than before. Most people focused on deliverance ministry that I have seen are just so shallowly focused and appear to care less about the long-term state of those they pray for, than feeling powerful, just as the disciples did when they proclaimed that “even the demons obey us!” The worst motive in doing this is wanting to feel powerful or look spiritually powerful to other men. This is the primary reason, I think, that there is so much fake stuff going on. It is a lust for spiritual power and to have people look at you and say, “you are just so gifted!”

Concerning Hank, I have been around this planet for years and developed my opinion a long time ago based on what he chose to call himself and his ego, public image. Since then I have come to see the whole idolatry of Christian celebrities as something that is evil. God hates it and almost all of the books, mostly not written by the celebrities, but by ghost writers, are lies sold for mammon and contain mostly worthless garbage. There are exceptions but this is the norm. If old age health problems are creating a new found humility for Hank, that humility would be good for him. Humility is good for all of us and I have seen God use old age to help people who were proud in their youth. It still does not change the fact that each of us needs to know Jesus personally by His own words. I would rather see people doing that than even reading some of the few good books I have found. There is no substitute for personal interaction with Jesus and His Holy Spirit.

dee: I think that Mr. J. is more upset with HH’s view on the extremes in the Charismatic Movement since he tips in that direction. HH was also helpful to me in that regard.

Nope, false accusation here. And a rather quick hypocritical judgment to be fair. You hate it when people do that to you, so why are you doing it to me? Are you listening? A man who claims to have all of the answers is not humble. That has been and will always be my point.

I see that God used the man in your life. I acknowledge that. God has used men who were troubled in my own life for good. This is because of the power of God, not the greatness of these men. One of the greatest influences on me for good was a man who eventually became entangled with an affair he started, in his own home fellowship group, with the wife of an ex-roommate and co-worker before they were officially divorced. It was pure hell and worthy of any soap opera script ever written for tv. The short of it is that God uses messed up people like you, me, Hank and Jon. If either of the two of us eventually become celebrities selling a lot of books, then we have become a bigger part of the problem than the answer…

Nathan Priddis: That would be a bot I would love to talk with.

That needs to be a Twitter account…

Mr J sure loves to toss around ‘false accusations’ as if his disagreement with something = #fact.

Lowlandseer: the New Apostolic Reformation’s 2011 prayer conference

The NAR is just a term that Wagner coined. There has never been any formal organization, nor is there anyone who uses this term to self-describe who they are now that Wagner is dead. Their was no NAR 2011 Prayer meeting. The term has become a pejorative that critics use to beat certain people with so no wonder that no one actually uses this term to self-identify with today.

People writing about it like it was a real thing do not care about what is actually true or not, so I would not give any credence to those who do write about it. Some of it comes from guys like John MacArthur with his own issues and other comes from liberal pundits who do not like the Christian right’s political views. So if you are going to criticize something at least criticize something that actually exists and not something that does not. All else is just a strawman fallacy and I do not think that Christians in good conscience should be using fallacies.

ishy: That needs to be a Twitter account…

Wait!?!
Soft Curls!!!! That could be it. It could change history, by changing public opinions. Sorta like, America for Christ, and Christ for America. Only less so, and more like, curly softness.

Does that make sense? It does to me!

Shadowfax,

The church does not collect the assessment/inventory forms and does not keep them on file. Criticize the program if you will but don’t misrepresent it.

Dee, Jesus does a wee bit more than sit on His throne, good luck with your gig.

Mr. Jesperson,

I wasn’t criticising, I was informing. Be that as it may, you wrongly assert that “it” doesn’t exist and is therefore a “straw man”. Just because it’s not a formal organisation, doesn’t mean there is no such entity, as the author goes on to explain in the following quote
“There are undoubtedly several reasons for the paucity of schol- arly attention to the Third Wave and spiritual warfare, including the social distance between most academics and those who participate
6
introduction
in Third Wave activities (making them nearly invisible to some) and the discomfort the movement causes for various evangelical scholars, who view them as the unrefined cousins they pretend they’re not re- lated to (some wish they were more invisible). But another reason is that the movement is diffuse and loose, made up of groups and indi- viduals connected primarily by practices and theologies of spiritual warfare. Leaders in the movement generally avoid the “Third Wave” moniker, preferring to reference specific movements (such as the New Apostolic Reformation) or practices (such as strategic-level spiritual warfare) that fall under the Third Wave umbrella. Some practitioners know little of the Third Wave’s history and figures, but are still influ- enced by its idioms.21 But don’t be mistaken, the Third Wave consists of multiple institutional structures that are well funded and expansive in their geographical, cultural, and political reach. These include (or have included) the U.S. Strategic Prayer Network, the Sentinel Group, the New Apostolic Reformation, Spiritual Warfare Network, Justice at the Gate, Christian Harvest International, the U.S. Prayer Center, Glory of Zion International Ministries, Generals International, Global Harvest Ministries, and the Wagner Leadership Institute. Prominent members have served on boards of organizations such as the char- ismatic group Women’s Aglow, and well-known figures have staked their claim as fellow travelers. The evangelical pollster George Barna, for example, appeared in promotional films for the Sentinel Group’s “Transformations” series, and the scandal-plagued pastor Ted Haggard, former head of the largest evangelical umbrella organiza- tion in the United States, provided a blurb for a Third Wave author’s book.22 This is no small and uninfluential group.”

So I would have had grounds for criticism had I chosen to do so, but, as I say, I was simply supplying information, as is my wont.
Regards 😉

The Village Church: “Making Jesus Furious”

yeah, that’s the ticket.

Nathan Priddis: Soft Curls!!!! That could be it. It could change history, by changing public opinions. Sorta like, America for Christ, and Christ for America. Only less so, and more like, curly softness.
Does that make sense? It does to me!

Quit channeling John Piper.

Samuel Conner,

The IFB church I attended a few years ago, the pastor said the people that claim to have the gift of healing, why don’t they go down to their local hospital and start using their gifts.

Brian: Have you seen a Russian Yeti?

The Yetis have all settled down and started manufacturing coolers and travel mugs. 😉

Brian,

not a one.

Shadowfax,

“I personally witnessed them lying to a room full of group leaders so why would we expect them to tell the truth on anything.”
++++++++++++++

when someone lies, can you ever truly trust them again? (a rhetorical question)

lying is a huge deal.

(deal-breaker, that is.)

elastigirl,

It absolutely is a deal breaker- I believe we are seeing their lies beginning to catch up to them. What is done in secret will be brought to light. I look forward to that day!

dee: I remember when you went off on me

Ofda, kinda going off on Jesperson. I’ve been away for a while and just dropping back in so don’t know the history but I can’t see what line was crossed to elicit the response.

Lea: I’m all about Brene Brown’s embracing vulnerability, but one thing specifically mentioned is you have to decide who to be vulnerable to. Some people aren’t safe. I think that’s more what this about, who is safe.

Oh, I agree with you, but trustworthy friends that you choose to be vulnerable with and a church group that you are instructed to bear all to are two very different things.

Shadowfax,

“They have an “inventory” on record for everyone that they can then hold over their heads if the occasion arises.”
+++++++++++++++++

sort of like when Steve Hardin (then campus pastor of The Village Church Dallas-Northway) sent a text to his pastor colleagues “have we tried to help push her under our care?”?

she had the audacity to participate in her own life. she made her own life decisions, instead of letting Steve Hardin and his fellow TVC pastors control her by making her life decisions for her.

the membership covenant agreement she signed with The Village Church gave them all the permission and entitlement they needed to control her.

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/05/26/part-2-the-village-church-doesnt-discipline-the-internet-child-sex-abuser-but-disciplines-his-wife/

Shadowfax: They have an “inventory” on record for everyone that they can then hold over their heads if the occasion arises.

My former pastor kept a file like this.

SiteSeer: I expect the next step will be to impersonate commenters and sow confusion.

The bot needs to go.

I believe the first two comments labeled “Guest” are from a person, and the comments after that are from a bot.

And this is not the first time that has happened.

Shadowfax: They have an “inventory” on record for everyone that they can then hold over their heads if the occasion arises. Is it any wonder that things are covered up from the top down?

Confession is supposed to be followed by absolution. The newfangled practice of confessing to church officials is meant to be more sincere than ancient forms. But no church official can reliably gauge a person’s repentance. Moreover, the official hearing the confession is intruding far more between the penitent and God, both by sizing the person up and by keeping a record instead of wiping the slate clean.

Corporate confession lets each person in the congregation seek God’s forgiveness without speaking the sins. Roman Catholic confession has the seal and (the appearance of) anonymity. Both forms have been accused of letting people off the hook too easily, and the seal can be used to hide crimes. However, at least they do not yield a trove of blackmail material.

What do these churches with peer-based confession teach about its purpose? Do they even pretend God has a role?

Guest:
The bot needs to go?

Dee Parsons, when you can’t share the gospel here, the comment section of The Wartburg Watch is abscessed, and in need of a change. Visitors have discovered that your comment section no longer representing Christ. Good luck with that.

From my reading of the narrative parts of the New Testament, “Gospel proclamation” was generally accompanied by pretty specific calls to “repentance”. This really is pretty consistent — one sees it in the ministry of John, then of Jesus, then of Peter and the other apostles, and finally in the ministry of Paul.

I doubt that any of these would recognize the kind of statements that “Guest” has been posting as “gospel proclamation”. They are more along the lines of comforting atmospheric theological thoughts, suitable for use in contemporary worship choruses.

Max,

Good “catch”; my prior sense that “Guest”‘s contributions could have been lifted from worship choruses is similar.

Guest: Visitors have discovered that your comment section no longer representing Christ.

One wonders to what extent Jesus is pleased with TVC’s claim to represent Him.

It’s perilous to bring the name of YHWH into disrepute; David’s experience suggests that the trouble that follows from this may continue to the end of one’s days.

Guest: Dee, Jesus does a wee bit more than sit on His throne, good luck with your gig.

Um Guest, in case ya’ haven’t noticed, Mizz Dee’s blog is a HUGE success!

Max: The “person” is most likely a TVC member and/or one of the Acts 29 faithful, whose initial comments and following bots are intended to distract TWW commenters from the blog topic and his idol Matt Chandler. He’s becoming a Captain Obvious with his exhortations.

i.e. a Bot who happens to be made of Meat instead of ones and zeros.

Guest:
The bot needs to go?

Dee Parsons, when you can’t share the gospel here, the comment section of The Wartburg Watch is abscessed, and in need of a change. Visitors have discovered that your comment section no longer representing Christ. Good luck with that.

How PIOUS…

Lea,

For me, “Guest”‘s contributions seem to be vague anodyne high-level summaries. Perhaps they are intended to have a soothing, sedative, soporific, or even anesthetic effect. Sort like “turning one’s eyes on Jesus” so that the things of TVC will grow “strangely dim”.

I would like to think that fixing one’s gaze on the Author and Perfecter of faith who, among other things, was zealous against the injustices perpetrated by the religious leaders of His day, would inspire similar zeal in our time.

In that sense, it might be that “Guest”‘s contributions are actually at odds with God’s purposes.

Lea: WineBot to all my wonderful TWW commenters:

Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do.

“A feast is made for laughter, wine makes life merry, and money is the answer for everything.” – Eccl 10:19

Samuel Conner: Sort like “turning one’s eyes on Jesus” so that the things of TVC will grow “strangely dim”.

This has been an outstanding discussion. If anything, the visit of a trollbot helps us to hone the points we were already making. We don’t usually get derailed and cranky.

Nick Bulbeck: Still satisfied that “Guest” is a bot.

… or robotic in nature. He appears to be a Matt Chandler fan; thus, a New Calvinist. The New Calvinist tribe tend to be robotic, moving and behaving in harmony with their leaders, more mechanical than spiritual.

GuyBehindtheCurtain: It seems that “Guest” is a real person. Not a Bot.

Is it Matt Chandler in disguise? Anyone remember when his old Acts 29 bud, Mark Driscoll, used to troll the blogosphere defending himself as William Wallace II? It’s a sickness.

GuyBehindtheCurtain,

sorry … please feel free to delete this and my last comment.

GuyBehindtheCurtain,

Thank you for weighing in. I know you work exceedingly hard, but maybe some clearer info on the Contacting Us page would help. This is not a technical issue, and I didn’t know you were the geek in the email address.

GuyBehindtheCurtain: But why didn’t someone send a note to ME about it.

I don’t think the timing was right until now. It was very interesting to observe how Guest continued to regurgitate platitudes out of context and expected everyone to get the point. This is how I was trained, starting in college with The Navigators, so the non-dialogue with Guest helped me to process all that. The fact that a real person could be so easily confused with a bot exposes where this type of evangelicalism ends up. And it shows me from what I was eventually rescued.

To sum it up, it is good that you are now intervening, but it was not at all bad that you did not intervene sooner.

dee,

Thank you, Dee. You and the geek are the best!!!

Friend: What do these churches with peer-based confession teach about its purpose? Do they even pretend God has a role?

It’s how manly men bond with each other- You join one of these Biblical Manhood groups and it’s part of the program. You find yourself in a room full of other men most of whom are strangers, and you are supposed to bare your deepest struggles because, it’s part of the program and that’s what the leaders say to do. Accountability and all that.

SiteSeer: what point they were trying to make.

I suspect that the point was along the lines of “we have the gospel and the gospel is the solution and there’s nothing wrong with TVC that won’t be fixed when Jesus returns, so what’s the big deal? You people are unspiritual — be more heavenly-minded”

John A,

Your assigned “mentor” most assuredly had access. The whole point of meeting with them is to go through the “inventory” list in the curriculum. I put the word in quotes for a reason. The TVC environment grooms people to have no personal boundaries so they think nothing of sharing deeply personal things to strangers (the small groups for STEPS are strangers) then they get assigned a mentor(ones that tow the party line) to oversee a vulnerable person. They say things are confidential but I saw this violated during my time going through the program. You can’t force trust it is earned. They certainly had my membership paperwork on file so any questions asked on that they absolutely still have. As for the STEPs all they need do is ask a mentor to get all info they need of the small group leaders which is what happened with our group. The PEOPLE are the record- They keep “record” of people through many means. How is it they know who the powerful and influential are, I wonder?

TS00,

Sorry, hadn’t read far enough to get the commentary on Guest. Feel free to delete my comment if you want to end the ‘Guest’ topic.

Muff Potter,

Here’s a corporate prayer of confession, if people are interested. It can be prayed deeply or simply mouthed; that is between me and my God, eh? This one is PCUSA:

Gracious God, our sins are too heavy to carry, too real to hide, and too deep to undo. Forgive what our lips tremble to name, what our hearts can no longer bear, and what has become for us a consuming fire of judgment. Set us free from a past that we cannot change; open to us a future in which we can be changed; and grant us grace to grow more and more in your likeness and image, through Jesus Christ, the light of the world. Amen.

Headless Unicorn Guy: I’ll give you a bottle o’ wine…”

A friend of mine used to say, “The songs are all at the bottom.” 😉