"Acts 29 is a church planting network I had the honor of co-founding with Presbyterian Pastor David Nicholas in 1998, when Mars Hill Church was small, disorganized, broke, and seeking to greatly out-punch its weight class."
Mark Driscoll / The Miracle of the Acts 29 Church Planting Network
Taken by Julie Anne Smith
Church Planting – it's all the rage among the 'missional' crowd, especially those in the Acts 29 Network. We are beginning a series in which we will take an indepth look at a midwestern church that attempted to clone itself according to A29's DNA. What happened to this well-established congregation will call into question whether Acts 29 is planting or decimating churches. More on that toward the end of the post…
In case you have ever wondered (as we have) how Acts 29 came into existence, here is some interesting information.
How and when did Acts 29 begin? (link)
Acts 29 was founded in 2000 with Mark Driscoll, pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle when it was about 200 in attendance and David Nicholas, a Presbyterian pastor (now retired) of a large church in Boca Raton, Florida. They formed the network to plant qualified, entrepreneurial men who held to a reformed soteriology (salvation) and were willing to engage urban cities with the gospel.
So did Acts 29 begin in 1998 (as Mark Driscoll indicated in the above quote) or in 2000? Inquiring minds want to know…
Somehow your glam blog queens missed the fact that Mark Driscoll co-founded Acts 29 with Dr. David Nicholas (who died on January 25, 2011). Who was Dr. Nicholas? Here is some pertinent information in the Sun Sentinel at the time of his death.
The Rev. Nicholas died of cardiac arrest at Boca Raton Community Hospital the night of Jan. 25, a day after teaching a seminar for 25 ministers. He was 79.
During his decades at Spanish River, the Rev. Nicholas oversaw the establishment of a lively, contemporary worship style that helped grow weekend attendance to 1,700. The church also launched a counseling center with seven counselors and a school with 560 students.
Under the Rev. Nicholas' supervision, Spanish River fostered 250 churches in 11 countries, plus 40 orphanages in Haiti, Chad and Malawi. After his pastorate, he founded an organization called Church Planting Network to concentrate on forming congregations.
"David's life is marked by great work," said the Rev. Tommy Kiedis, who succeeded him at Spanish River. "His passion was always spreading the message of Jesus around the world."
The Boca Raton Tribune stated the following about Dr. David Nicholas (link):
Dr. Nicholas started the church in 1967 with a small group of people meeting in an empty storefront and continued to serve there for 42 years.
Under Dr. Nicholas’ leadership, SRC planted more than 200 churches in the United States and around the world, according to the SRC website.
Dr. Nicholas also co-founded the Acts 29 Network “He was an incredible supporter of our church and mentor to me and our pastors,” said Chan Kilgore, Acts 29 board member and planter of CrossPointe Church in Orlando.
Pastor Mark Driscoll founded the Acts 29 Network with Dr. Nicholas in 2000. He was influential in starting many current Acts 29 churches, and provided much support for many church planters.
And here is an excerpt from the tribute to Dr. David Nicholas on the Acts 29 website: (link)
Nicholas was influential in starting many current Acts 29 churches, and provided much support for many of our church planters.
“As a young church planter, Dr. David Nicholas was very generous to me with both finances and wisdom,” Driscoll wrote. “I often thank God for the massive investment that he has made in my life and ministry, as well as hundreds of other church planters. Though we miss him, it will be exciting one day in eternity to see the lasting legacy of the fruit of his long and faithful ministry.
I found this comment by Robert (over on another blog) fascinating:
Just FYI: Driscoll did not found Acts 29.
It was founded by a Florida pastor, Dr. David Nicholas, who passed away last year. Dr. Nicholas’ organization helped fund some of Driscoll’s early church-planting activities, and at some point, Driscoll took over the organization from Dr. Nicholas. The history is unclear as to how Driscoll did this, whether it was a friendly or hostile takeover. We will probably never know the truth.
In case you'd like to read more about the co-founder of Acts 29, there was an interview in Christianity Today with Dr. Nicholas shortly before his death.
As we begin to take a closer look at the Acts 29 network, this is how they describe their mission:
The mission of Acts 29 is to band together churches, which, for the sake of Jesus and the gospel, plant new churches and replant dead and dying churches around the world. This work is done in obedience to the great commission (Matt. 28:18-20), with the goal of seeing millions of lives changed by the power of the good news of Jesus Christ.
Our vision is to be a Spirit-empowered network of churches, united on mission to reach all people groups for the glory of God, planting churches that in turn plant more churches. If God has called you to plant or replant a church, apply to Acts 29 and our pastors will shepherd you in that journey. As a member, you will be in relationship with other planters through assessment, training, and support as we strive to continue planting church-planting churches.
Here is a video featuring Matt Chandler, the current president of Acts 29 who succeeded Mark Driscoll:
According to its website, here are some statistics that describe Acts 29 as of 2013 (link):
482 Churches within Acts 29
142,932 People attending Acts 29 churches
61 Countries supported through the work of Acts 29 churches
6 Continents represented by Acts 29 churches
18 Denominations represented within Acts 29
10,026 Baptisms at Acts 29 churches in 2012
97.9% Planter success rate
$18M Given to church planting initiatives in 2012
273 Church planters sent out in 2012
That all sounds well and good, but we are greatly concerned that a ministry which appears to have had a promising start may be resorting to bully tactics to duplicate itself.
Allow us to introduce you to church planter Kevin Galloway, who was featured on the Acts 29 website several years ago. Here is some of what he shared:
Briefly describe your story of your call to plant a church
I was called to help lead a large existing church into and through the deep change needed to help transform it into a missional church.
What were the biggest challenges you faced in planting your church (and/or currently facing)?
The biggest challenges faced were that of folks resisting changes to an established 30 year old church. Many of those folks ultimately left to attend churches that offered them more of what they were used to, thus making room for people coming to faith for the very first time. This addition of new believers in contrast to membership shifts and transfers has forced us to a deeper discipleship and formation praxis for new believers as well as those who have known Jesus for years.
How did you become involved with Acts 29? What have been the biggest benefits of being in the network?
I became familiar with A29 as I have followed Mars Hill and The Resurgence on the web. The Gospel Coalition Conference in Chicago allowed me to meet and speak with Tyler Powell and other A29 pastors which led to a phone call with Scott Thomas and a subsequent trip to Seattle to meet with Scott and Tyler. They have been such a great help to me and the Countryside community already!
It's important to stress that Countryside Community Church was a non-denominational church with a successful 30 year history prior to the retirement of its founding pastor. The church likely had the largest auditorium in the area with a seating capacity of around 1,400. From what we understand, attendance was so large that there were two services.
Kevin Galloway, who had no seminary training, was hired as the music minister a couple of years before the founding pastor retired. Galloway, who has a liberal arts degree, worked as a police officer prior to joining the Countryside staff.
Galloway, the founding pastor's successor, began to transform Countryside to match Acts 29's DNA. Women were ushered out of leadership positions, ministries like Celebrate Recovery and a food pantry were terminated, reformed theology was forced upon the congregation, and Mark Driscoll's books were promoted. To attract new Christians, the church was being transformed into a 'missional' church; however, there was a steady stream of parishioners (some long-time members) who left their beloved church. Something was terribly wrong in this once vibrant congregation!
Galloway (and the other church leaders) then re-planted Countryside Christian Church and changed its name to 'Christ Church'. The News Dispatch featured an article Countryside to celebrate new name, location which called attention to the transformation. Here is a portion of that piece:
Countryside Christian Church marks the next phase of its rebirth Sunday, complete with a new name and location.
Now known as Christ Church, the congregation of about 400 active members will begin meeting at AMC ShowPlace Theater behind Meijer. The arrangement is through a lease agreement where the church can use theaters 13 and 14 – the multiplex’s largest rooms – for Sunday worship.
“This isn’t a rare thing,” Lead Pastor Kevin Galloway said Friday. “AMC has churches across the country who use their theaters.”
Much of what congregation members appreciated about Countryside services will be part of Christ Church at AMC. The praise band will remain a key part of services, while parishioners will be met by greeters and guest services. Nursery care will be available.
The congregation officially revealed its plan to seek a new location this past summer, citing many factors, from the need to repay the church’s mortgage to the economy and a change in the church’s mission.
Galloway also told The News-Dispatch in July the congregation’s building at 7056 W. County Road 450 North seats about 1,400, but save for holidays and special occasions, the sanctuary often is not filled for Sunday worship.
There were some interesting comments posted under this article, which help shed some light on what happened (see below).
Nonni wrote on Sep 10, 2011 11:30 PM:
" Moving to a movie theatre? Celebrating??? Who are you to kid? This is not call for celebration! Many of your members are deeply saddened by this. THEY'RE LOSING THEIR HOME! But then again, it seems those "running the show" don't really care about their people! "
Marty wrote on Sep 11, 2011 1:14 PM:
" I was a member of Country side for over 20 years and find it distressing that this has happened. The leaders of the church do not listen to their church body. Shame on them! Once leadership changed…things went downhill. "
Follower of Jesus wrote on Sep 14, 2011 11:25 PM:
" I am one who is conflicted during this whole thing. On the one hand I want to tell those that are lamenting over the loss of their building to get over it. On the other hand, as a former member there and a long time member of the LaPorte Community, I totally understand the pain and mourning that is going on right now. What you have here is more than a Church that has "sold" its building, what you have is a Church that has essentially been hijacked by a leadership that has not the slightest touch with reality, nor any real concern for it's flock. This event is the result of the systematic alienation of almost 1000 people in this community. There were times when Countryside numbered nearly 1200-1300 strong on a Sunday Morning. Now there are just 400 left. Churches split and compress all the time because of needed change. This is not one of those times. "
We will be sharing more details about what happened in our upcoming post. In the meantime, you might be interested to know that Christ Church, which met in a movie theater initially, is now meeting in an older church that had been vacated. To give you a glimpse into the health of this Acts 29 church, here is an excerpt from Kevin Galloway's most recent blog post:
While we are experiencing significant numeric growth as a local church, we face a disturbing statistic. Christ Church has grown by approximately 100% over the last year with steady growth over the summer months. What is disturbing is that only 40% of our regular worship gathering attenders show up each week.
So is this a vibrant, growing church or a church in crisis?
To reveal the other side of the Countryside Christian Church story, we have some former members who intend to lay it on the line about what happened to this Acts 29 church re-plant in Michigan City, Indiana.
In our upcoming posts, we will be exploring a number of issues including:
– Bait and Switch theology
– Inappropriate use of church credit cards
– Church funds being spent on liquor and
Saks (not a typo!)Nordstrom.
Stay tuned as we examine the underbelly of an Acts 29 church…
Lydia's Corner: Isaiah 10:1-11:16 2 Corinthians 12:11-21 Psalm 56:1-13 Proverbs 23:6-8
Can’t wait!!!
How David Nicholas transitioned out of Acts 29 barely 2 or 3 years past the time of co-founding it has been a mystery.
All of this is very interesting to me. I am trying to pioneer (and I think that’s the right word) a better way of treating job-seekers here, and at the moment my nascent organisation is certainly small, disorganised and unfunded. Since believers have a historical precedent for displacing “nations greater and mightier than us”, I certainly aspire for it to punch above its weight, and we’ll certainly need to build networks (some of them fairly well structured) and work with other organisations.
Had I started this at 18, rather than 45, and had I possessed sufficient leadership χάρισμα to do so, I would almost certainly have become consumed by pride and personal ambition. I, too, would have avoided low-income demographics (other than in token charitable programmes from which the core of my great ministry would have been safely protected) and focused on middle-class Oxbridge graduates or similar. No-one gets rich off the poor, unless you’re employing them for peanuts in your business empire.
So when I read about this sort of thing, I cannot help but think: this is a warning for us all.
In other news, the Met Office shipping forecast for sea area Fair Isle (upwind of us, to some extent) reads:
A 106-mph gust has been recorded in Glen Ogle, apparently, not that far from here, and it’s pretty noisy outside. Though my modifications to the shed roof yesterday appear to be holding so far! Nevertheless, when a storm blew over two weeks ago we had a power-cut – I think a tree fell on a cable – so I may disappear from the interweb at any moment!
Why is it, I wonder, that I have heard of Mark Driscoll, but have never heard of Dr Nicholas? Eternity will show whether Dr Nicholas was one of those who quietly got on with the job, and was blessed in that fame eluded him.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I’m glad I no longer live in Schleswig-Holstein in north Germany. The forcast for there for today includes winds of up to 170 kmh and high tides to equal that of the 1962 Hamburg disaster.
If you disappear, it was nice knowing you …..
Ken wrote:
It’s kind of you to say so! Winds seem to be dropping now, though. The Forth Bridge website graph shows 90 mph gusts at around 8:45 but these have lately dropped to around 65, with overall wind speeds in the late 50’s. Here in Clacks the clouds are moving fairly sedately overhead and we’ve even got some blue sky. In fact it’s gone eerily quiet since I started typing this comment; the Ochil Hills do odd things to the wind here, though.
That said, the most serious warnings are for tidal flooding here, too – there’s talk of conditions matching the Great Flood of 1953. Fortunately, flood defences and comms are vastly better than 60 years ago, so the human cost (there were hundreds of fatalities on both sides of the North Sea) should be far less.
Dee & Deb have found another pastor they don't like, Kevin Galloway.
Are we going to impugn all of Acts 29 because of one pastor who has critics?
* How is this helpful? *
This process is happening at my Cumberland Presbyterian church right now! Our two young pastors mysteriously took off on a trip to Bangalore, India and came back preaching a different gospel, touting International Justice Mission and YWAM like they are the crème de la creme. Suddenly sermons are pushing works righteousness and humanistic garbage such as “What you think about God determines what He is able to accomplish.” The word “missional” is being thrown around, and they are trying to “standardize” all the content being taught at every level, but the material does not meet up with the standards of our Confession of Faith. We have been around for over 30 years, but the new pastors are pushing people out the door as fast as they can. Long-time ministry leaders such as myself are being told that we are “burned out and need a break,” and only those who are close to the new pastors (and willing to buy into their strategy) are allowed to take our place. The new ministry leaders are naïve, spiritually immature and unschooled in doctrine. We who are trying to understand this phenomenon heard the words “Mars Hill” a couple of times and got suspicious. Since then, examination of the Facebook sites of one of the pastors plus our minister of children and our worship leader prove that they are all long-time Driscoll followers. I have alerted our leadership and believe that we will be removing all four of these leaders by the first of the year. Thank you for this information which will help to save other vibrant, orthodox churches from such disaster. By the way, our membership has dwindled to a mostly empty (and large) sanctuary. I am calling those who have left back to help in the fight… PS – Mark would love to know that I am a woman (but with elders and at least one member of Presbytery supporting me and asking for my help) : ) I stand by Jude 3 – we must guard and protect our churches to “contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.” Church “replanting” is not a Biblical concept.
PSS The #2 guy at Mars (or Mark’s) Hill, Dave Bruskas, was once a young pastor at our church – probably one reason that we were targeted. They waited to make their move until a few years ago when our long-time pastor (there nearly since the church’s inception) retired.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Stay safe and please keep us updated. Here's the latest news that I can find on the internet:
Ken wrote:
That's why I included all that information about Dr. Nicholas. I am baffled as to why I have never heard his name but have heard so much about Acts 29 on the internet.
Prayer for the survival of all in NW Europe from the devastation that storms fed by global warming may cause.
In other news, the worst of the weather seems to’ve cleared Scotland and northern England. There’s still widespread disruption from earlier, of course; some thousands in Scotland without power (although the number was twice as large earlier this morning), one gust of 142 mph and one fatality that I know of.
However, the most serious effects – the storm surge on the North Sea coast of England at high tide later today – are still to come; there are likely to be evacuations in some areas.
An Attorney wrote:
It’s not true, it’s not true, global warming is a lie told by godless liberals, we should all drive SUVs until God burns it all up:
http://natepyle.com/why-mark-driscolls-theology-of-suvs-matters/
That’s not so far away from Ann Coulter’s “rape it!” comment on the creation:
http://caelumetterra.wordpress.com/2013/01/16/ann-coulter-pro-rape-ecologically-speaking/
“We are Acts 29. Lower your shields and surrender your church. We will replace your doctrinal and ministry distinctiveness with our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.”
@ Leslie:
One of the reasons we felt compelled to do this series is because we believe there are congregations out there undergoing systematic changes to alter their DNA.
Here's what infuriates me…
There are churches out there with parishioners who have supported their churches for decades with their time, talent, and treasure.
Then a young pastor appears on the scene who wants to re-invent the church so that it fits the Acts 29 mold.
Gradually, the congregants leave their church home either voluntarily or involuntarily (more on that later in the series), and voila the Driscoll clone has taken over the organization and gained control of all the assets.
This is so wrong on so many levels, so we are sounding the alarm with the help of a few brave souls who are willing to come forward and share their testimonies. What happened to them is so upsetting!
Later in the series we may provide a list of buzz words and phrases that should be red flags for unsuspecting congregations.
Here are a few:
missional
relevant
church planting churches
I have no doubt our readership can add to the list.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Thanks for that update. Stay safe Nick!
Lee wrote:
Great comment!
At the Acts 29 Boot Camp held back in 2009 (six weeks before we launched TWW) which took place in Raleigh (where Dee and I live!), this was one of the topics in Track 2: Assimilation to Membership
Here is a clip that I believe is eerily true about Acts 29 church re-plants – We Are Borg
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Praying everything’s ok for you, friends/family, and the rest of the UK and Europe with this storm. Looking at the satellite and radar data, it’s a monster storm system you’re all facing with three separate and very large subsystems. Just the cloud cover of this system is mindblowing in its extent. I’ve been looking at this site http://www.sat24.com/en/eu which has pretty good data.
How is it “missional” to close the rehab program (can’t tell if it’s for alcoholism, drugs, abuse, etc. just from the name) and the food pantry? Wouldn’t these bring you into contact with actual needy people from outside the church? Which is supposedly what “missional” is all about?
@ Seneca:
What a poisonous individual you are.
Deb wrote:
Working on it. It’s stopped snowing so I’m off for a run up the hills now.
… which, btw, are looking nice and Christmassy.
Never quite sure how many s’s to put in Christmassy/Christmasy, tbh.
@ Seneca:
Shhhhh, Senecea. Its all good, very, very good. Repeat 10x. Everyone is wonderful…
@ Nick Bulbeck: I am glad that you are OK. It appears your internet survive the onslaught!
Leslie wrote:
We have lotss more including credit card charges that should raise some eyebrows. Watch your money and speaker system (Bose or otherwise).
Deb wrote:
Because it has always been about Mark Driscoll.
@ Deb: The last comment by Galloway says it all. Its all the fault of those idiots who can’t get on board and come to church on Sundays. Can you imagine? They don’t want to come and sit at the feet of this man and get fed? How unChristian of them. Don’t they know they are supposed to come and give him lots of money to dress well, live well, and spew the party line. After all doesn’t he dress very hip? Isn’t hip part of the budget? Bag the food pantry. We need hip.
Seneca wrote:
I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.
Elie Wiesel
@ Seneca:
See you, Jimmy…
dee wrote:
Indeed – very little damage hereabouts, and in fact the unofficial storm we had a fortnight ago was worse. Again, I think this is the localised effect of the Ochil Hills.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Well I’m glad you’re safe. Oh, and say hello to Julie Andrews for me …. 🙂
The “success” of the Acts29 churches is completely predicated upon their ability to do things their way. The “pastors” must be able to act and behave as they wish (usually immaturely) to attract a cult-like following. This type of behavior fosters a congregation that tends to seem themselves as rebels, therefore they celebrate (Furtick style) the extravagances and irrational behavior of their leaders.
I pastor a small church and while I don’t comment here often, I would like to add another thought to this stream.
There seems to be a movement in our area for churches to disassociate themselves with Acts 29. Maybe people are starting to catch on?
@ Deb:
These guys have no respect for the people who spent their hard earned money building the church at all. Their actions prove it. We have seen it over and over here. See, they have truth and so their actions, to them, are “biblical”. Does this bring anything to mind? The ends justify the means? They see a debt free church with an aging population they can take over as their own and rebrand it in their own image. But in the meantime, you gotta get rid of those who dare to dissent. But use their money first.
When this was not working out well with the SBC/Acts 29 DNA in existing churches it was very easy for Mohler’s boy, Ezell, to use NAMB money for Acts 29 church plants. So the little boys got their own church, again, using other people’s money who had NO clue what they were funding. Problem is, no one can get stats on the success/failure of funding this stuff. Another problem is the SBC is funding a group that declares they ONLY plant Reformed churches. How is that right for the SBC to fund that?
Driscoll DNA is all over the YRR in the SBC. It is very similar to Mahaney DNA with the controlling shepherding/discipline aspect. It is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. It is not good for them. They are unwise, unseasoned and indoctrinated. A horrible recipe for tyranny and disaster. The SBC will soon become known as the largest propagator of spiritual abuse. Thank you, Al Mohler for systematizing this focus.
These indoctrinated little boys do not have the spiritual gravitas to handle the power. I see a huge disaster on the horizon.
Just don’t give them any money. Don’t buy their books or attend their conferences. Without money, they cannot operate at the level they do now.
The “success” of the Acts29 churches is completely predicated upon their ability to do things their way. The “pastors” must be able to act and behave as they wish (usually immaturely) to attract a cult-like following. This type of behavior fosters a congregation that tends to seem themselves as rebels, therefore they celebrate (Furtick style) the extravagances and irrational behavior of their leaders.
I am a young pastor who pastors a small church and while I don’t comment here often, I would like to add another thought to this stream. Since I am doing so, at some risk of pointing fingers/making accusations, I will attempt to do so anonymously.
Acts 29, as an organization, is certainly “branding” this type of “ministry”. However, they are far from alone. I could tell of one “recovery/plant” and one plant who are greatly duplicating this behavior despite having no affiliation with Acts 29. In fact, if you look at our seminaries you will see that we are placing a very heavy emphasis on planting churches. The process is all about control.
It is frustrating serving in a church where the individuals seem to care more about decor than they do souls. But I confess that most of the men who are planting churches are planting churches because they are convinced that they are the only ones who can do something right. This finds us in a scary position as we are neglecting our need for the work of God’s Spirit. If changing the music, the lighting, and yes, even the programs, is all it takes; then of what need is the Spirit of God?
Seneca wrote:
Seneca…in real life it would be an irony if your were a marriage or professional counselor. I'd feel sorry for your clients!
K.D. wrote:
Yeah, that happening here too but beware. It is only the name they are disassociating. They were all still trained by Driscoll’s boot camp and all still have the DNA. They just don’t want to deal with the baggage. There is a church network here called Sojourn that was Acts 29 plant (paid for by SBC) and they have now started their own church planting network (ironically soon after Joyful Exiles went up) But they also employ some Mars Hill former staffers.(Mars Hill is not doing as well as some think). BTW: They will tell you none of the above is true. They lie. And what is worse, NAMB/SBC has no way of giving specific figures on money that has gone to Acts 29 church plants. They do not “count” it like that.
But here is the thing. There is NO WAY that Sojourn has the donor base to pay all the high salaries of all those staffers with cool hip. It is ridiculous. You cannot tell me Mars Hill guys went there to make 20,000 a year. But they don’t have to show anyone budgets. That is the thing about these YRR churches. They are closed systems. You are to ‘take their word for it”. No way. The ends justify the means with these guys.
And when you bring up Driscoll to them they get VERY defensive and insist they are not Acts 29. But there were for years! So the point is they can call themselves whatever they want but they still THINK/Operate like Driscoll. And we must get the word out. That movement is producing way too many rabid atheists.
@ K.D.:
KD can you expand upon that? Here’s the reason why I find this series so fascinating. My spiritual background in evangelcial Christianity started in an Evangelical Free Church of America. It was in the EFCA that I had my first church Bible study, worship experience, etc… This was in 1999 and 2000. As I relocated and moved I noticed that parts of the EFCA denomination seems to have been hijacked. When I was in my prolonged multi year faith crisis I decided to finally start looking at some churches or to have conversations with pastors about the doubts that tore me apart. I was so miserable with agnsoticism but I was also stuck becuase I still had problems with Christianity. Spiritually I was really nothing.
So I looked into the Evangelical Free Church here in the Washington, D.C. area. The EFCA in nearby Annandale is called Cornerstone Evangelcial Free. It proudly identifies with TGC and is led by Bill Kynes, who is on the board of TGC along with CJ Mahaney. Cornerstone is hyper-reformed and not something I even considered. There is the Evangelcial Free in Manassas, VA called Crossway but when I checked it out I noticed that it was flirting with hyper reformed theology. The church boldly proclaimed that it was working with Acts 29 in launching another Evangelical Free/Acts 29 chruch plant in the Washignton, D.C. area.
So I made a deicison to reject the EFCA and despite my spiitual crisis, I realized that I was not going to find the answers I wanted or even hoped to discuss. I wasn’t looking for a seeker as thsoe are jacked up to. I was looking for an intellectual environment that could discuss deep theology and philosophical isses. So this bothers me deeply because the EFCA is working with Acts 29 to do church plants. I leanred all this before I stumbled across Fairfax Community which is affiliated with the Church of God in Anderson, IN.
Eagle wrote:
Eagle, in my real life I push a lot of paper.
Eagle: Let me ask around to be sure all have disassociated.
Anon1: I wonder….I know one area church ran their Acts29 pastor off, and church members have taken back control.
JeffT wrote:
Elie was, rightfully, concerned about the murder of 6 million Jews. Here at Wartburg, we have people who don’t like their pastors or Evangelical leaders. Frankly, I don’t see the equivalence.
Amen!!!! This is about protecting the least of these– the elderly, poor, un-hip, or Biblically illiterate from becoming dead bodies and/or acolytes of the mind control which masquerades as Christianity!! Check your brains at the door, folks. We will TELL you what you believe—and you like it!! People burned by these horrible men often give up on faith completely because they think they’ve “tried Jesus.” In reality, they have only tried legalism. This is not about picking pastors to berate. Eternity is at stake! @ JeffT:
We are at the point now where the Acts-29-like leaders are trying to claim that I seem to have a “misunderstanding,” and they seem to be setting up our session (elders) and diaconate (of which I am a member) to clash with each other over some financial lack of accountability issues which I raised (and the entire diaconate endorsed the concerns in a written document.) Suddenly this word “misunderstanding” is being floated around and an “emergency” meeting is being called 2 weeks before Christmas so that we can “restore unity”. Is this a term that is commonly used with Driscoll DNA takeovers?
@ Anon 1:
Interesting info about Acts 29 and the SBC.
I believe it's noteworthy that Steve Timmis, director of Acts 29 in Western Europe, will be speaking at Southeastern's 20/20 Collegiate Conference. Yep, that's the same conference that recently dropped Mahaney.
http://www.sebts.edu/news-resources/conferences/20-20_collegiate_conf/2020_speakers.aspx
do you think much of this could be avoided if churches would not go “outside” to call their next pastor? Should not churches be discipling and raising up their own pastors/elders? The search committee process just is not helpful. You cannot judge a man’s life and character and teaching by a few interviews and a few preaching events.
I know of only one Acts 29 church, and they are a good plant in the area. They aren’t doing the shenanigans that are being seen here.
In defense of YRR guys which I have been associated with although I never used that label, not all of them are supportive of Driscoll. I have been critical of him for years even while I attended Southern Seminary, and I was not alone.
Seneca wrote:
No, TWW doesn’t like corrupt power-hungry money-focused pastors and Evangelical leaders who go completely against Titus 1 and 1 Tim 3.
In fact you can see this list on the Act29 website.
http://www.acts29network.org/acts-29-blog/biblical-qualifications-of-a-pastor/
Is Driscoll upright when he [allegedly] plagiarizes?
Is James MacDonald have financial integrity when he allegedly drives HBC into $65 million in debt?
Are these actions okay with you, Seneca?
Janey wrote:
They are Seneca’s God, and A God Can Do No Wrong.
Seneca wrote:
The difference is in degree, of course. But if what Acts 29 and and other individusals and organizations of their ilk isn’t tormenting their churches and congregations, I don’t know what is. Some are not willing to be silent in the face of abuse in the name of ‘Christianity’. If you are not troubled by the issues brought up here, then you can continue to keep your head in the sand.
Seneca wrote:
I take your point. It’s wrong to stay silent when people are being damaged or hurt, whether in churches or outside of them, but comparing this to the suffering in the middle of the 20th century in Europe is way over the top. It’s bordering on being insulting imo.
In fact, being mindful of what others have endured in say the former Communist east can help you to get some perspective on your own church battles and hassles – I speak from experience.
Off topic, but great article concerning Driscoll/Mefferd:
http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/12/04/areopagitica/
JeffT wrote:
Frankly Jeff, I think the complaints about the modern church are no different than the complaints that existed in the Pauline era. Same leaders, some good, some not so good. Mankind hasn’t changed.
But the “perpetually aggrieved” didn’t have the internet; they just had to go door-to-door.
Janey wrote:
Janey, there’s nothing new in this world. Pastors are no worse now then they ever were. We just have the internet.
@ Seneca:
So why are you against TWW? The Apostle Paul and all of the early church fathers called out bad behavior among their own ranks. Why does this bother you so much? Don’t you want good honorable pastors who live upright lives and don’t mishandle money and power? I don’t get your point.
Seneca wrote:
So the attitude toward all abuse by churches should be “C’est la vie“, and not discuss it?
“Frank” wrote:
One of the most obvious symptoms of NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder):
http://epiclesis.org/index.php/about-us/resources/52-notes-and-supplemental-materials/280-narcissism-in-the-pulpit
@ Leslie: YWAM has an agenda, too – this has been true for several decades. I was in a church with close ties to them, and there were some *weird* ideas/beliefs that came from them directly.
Seneca wrote:
Haha….you really think this is one isolated case? Sorry bro, this has happened all over the country. The underlying attitude with these showmen is “nobody knew how to do church until WE came along. WE’RE the generation the world has been waiting for.” The over the top arrogance, combined with the virtual lack of any theological training was more than I could stomach. So glad I got out of the A29 “church” I was in.
Hi, this is my first time commenting here, and I’m not likely to comment again for awhile. I’m merely an occasional reader and don’t have any connection to the personalities that often get discussed at this site. I simply find many of the posts and comments here insightful about current issues and attitudes in American Evangelicalism.
For those who are interested in David Nicholas the following link will provide a video of his memorial service and his last sermon at Spanish River Church. I think they indicate something of the measure of the man.
Blessings to all.
http://spanishriver.com/626261.ihtml
Seneca wrote:
You may be right about that. However, the difference these days is that when pastors do dumb/stupid/illegal things, they have legions of people (such as yourself) who will defend them, rather than calling them to repentance. People like you and Justin T would have called out Nathan in the O.T. for daring to confront the king over his adultery and murder.
Leslie wrote:
I can’t speak for Fiscal takeovers per se, but I’ve seen this kind of thing often enough to recognise certain symptoms. People who are trying to seize power and control will nearly always appeal for “unity”, yes, and to correct the “misunderstandings” of any who question them. What they want is unity beneath them.
It’s very clever, because it makes them appear gentle, safe, gracious and understanding; at the same time, of course, it makes those holding them to account appear the opposite. As an obscure charismatic theologian once said:
These people are either genuinely led by the Holy Spirit (if young and inexperienced) in a move to challenge the congregation to grow; those whom Jesus loves, he rebukes and disciplines after all. In which case, however young and naive they are, they will always gravitate towards behaving openly and walking in the light. Or else, they are led by a different spirit entirely, in which case they will use trickery, slick tricks and clever words to push an agenda about which they are never truly open, but just describe it as “biblical” or “God’s way” in a proof-by-assertion.
If it is the latter, then the one crucial thing they lack is the Holy Spirit. One of his manifestations is wisdom, and I have also seen this applied to great effect in unpleasant splits in the church. I’m praying that the right wisdom is given to the right people in your situation, Leslie (something for which I suspect you too are already praying!).
@Nick: I hope everything is OK in your neck if the woods! Keep us updated.
@Leslie: Sorry to hear about what you and your church are going through. I experienced a pretty typical Acts 29 fiasco a little over a year ago, and let me warn you right now: code red! The “emergency meetings” to “restore unity” are better translated as “emergency discipline session” to “put the dumb sheep in their place.” On a side note, IJM is not denominationally-affiliated, and they so really do work. My wife and I give regularly to them. Don’t let a few Calvinistas ruin your opinion of IJM!
@all:
This Acts 29 pattern is remarkably consistent. Young, uneducated, minimally trained “pastors” being sent out to plant or assimilate churches with an amazing lack of insight into their own incompetency, and then making a mess of things and blaming it all on the “dumb sheep” who won’t cooperate with their shenanigans. At my old Acts 29 church, the pastor was always whining and complaining about how “the sheep” treated him. The focus was always on how the rebellious little flock could make things easier on the pastor (there was an entire sermon preached on this topic)!
I’m sure that not all Acts29 pastors are reckless egomaniacs, but it sure does seem like their network does display a higher-than-average occurrence of NPD at the leadership level.
That’s right jimmy, we have the internet now. Your heroes can’t hide their actions now.
That emergency meeting needs to become a “dismiss the A29 pastors meeting” and find someone to preach and teach who will be honest and will appreciate the priesthood of all believers in the church.
I fully support JeffT’s citing of Elie Wiesel; I refer in particular to Wiesel’s determination never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation (emphasis added).
The avalanche of evil that was the holocaust did not just happen one day. It both grew, and was grown, by degrees. Kristallnacht – in which perhaps fewer than 100 Jews were killed – was itself carefully planned and the atmosphere in which it could be carried out unopposed was carefully cultivated. It began years before with a few loud, bold and brash fulminations against Jews here and there; a Jewish home or business vandalised; a Jew beaten up. In each case, the escalation was small and local enough, but intimidating enough, that nobody dared be seen to do anything about it. Gradually a culture was established in which the safe thing to do was to look the other way. Eventually, nobody could do anything about it – I mean, I don’t agree with persecution any more than you do, but what can you do? You’ve got to understand the politics of the situation… keep your head down… don’t rock the boat…
Wiesel understood this. If sufficient bold and brave champions of the weak had stood up and protected those few Jews who had been targeted by the infant National Socialist movement, the tipping point might have tipped the other way. It wouldn’t have needed many; there might have been a standard around which the weak, the downtrodden, and those who wished them well, could have rallied.
Very few small upwellings of prejudice, abuse or victimisation explode into genocide. But every single one matters. Especially in the Kingdom of Jesus, who takes personally whatever is done even to the least of these brothers/sisters of his. Every small act that says to a victim, you are not alone, is in its own way a fitting memorial to the victims of the Holocaust.
numo wrote:
Agreed. YWAM is in our church as well, and part of the way that I was clued in to what was happening. Have included info on them in packet to our Session. Good news – the issue will be taken up within the week – formally.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Thank you Nick! You expressed my sentiments in posting that quote more eloquently than I could have.
@ Leslie: Please keep us posted on how it goes. Let us know if they try to “discipline” you.
@ JeffT:
Strictly, I should correct “Wiesel understood this” to “Wiesel understands this” since he is, of course, still alive!
Mr.H wrote:
Deb wrote:
In skimming over articles about Rick Warren and related topics in years past, I saw the same thing is happening in regards to “seeker friendly” churches.
I’m not an expert on this. I’ve only read a tiny bit, but the the same thing is going on with other churches, it would seem. I don’t think Neo-Calvinism is at play in this other situation.
My understanding, based on what little I have read, is that Rick Warren and/or some of his associates have written books and materials (aimed at preachers, mostly) on how to have a P.D.C. “Purpose Driven Church.”
I don’t think the PDC causes or influences a preacher to swoop in on a church and take it over like what the Acts 29 guys are doing, but from what I have read, if a preacher or influential member at a church wants to make their church a PDC, the Warren material tells them what seem consider to be cruddy, sneaky, underhanded tactics.
They are instructed to just kick out any long standing church members who do not want to turn their church into a purpose driven, seeker friendly, rock music playing, laser show putting on, goatee and flip flop wearing preacher, shallow sermon giving preaching, kind of church.
I saw angry and hurt feelings expressed by people on forums and blogs who were kicked out of their churches for not going along with the changes to make their church more purpose driven, hip, trendy, “relevant,” and all that to draw the ‘seekers’ (Non Christians).
Maybe that is why there is so much hatred for Rick Warren (I see a lot of hate for the guy online).
Here is some info I found after a quick search (source: nowtheendbegins.com/):
I found that from a very quick search; you can probably find better, more thorough materials doing more digging. I was just trying to find a page with a quick summary.
There seems to be a wider trend, where preachers (regardless of being Neo Calvinist or whatever brand of theology), feel it’s fine to take over churches and kick people out.
Anon1, is it fair to say that Sojourn is basically Mars Hill Church without a Driscoll-type personality at the helm? Or is it more fair to say it’s a hybrid of MHC/Sovereign Grace without a dominant, Driscoll/Mahaney-type personality?
In either case, Sojourn’s DNA has the same ingredients that led to the messes at MHC and SGM…and I’m glad I got away from it.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Back during my college years (one foot in the Evangelical Circus and the other in the D&D Gaming scene), I remember being asked by Pentecostals “What Gift of the Spirit do you want?”
As far as I know, I was the ONLY one to answer “Wisdom” instead of “Tongues, Tongues, Tongues, Tongues, and Tongues”. Because Wisdom is the command control over all the others, telling you when to use the other gifts — and when NOT to.
TedS. wrote:
And who is more “important, powerful, and famous” than GOD?
Alan wrote:
The same view of Church History as the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Acts 29 is a virtual church virus.
The funniest (saddest) think I’ve seen was a book for sale on Amazon. I forget the title, it was something like, “Who is taking over my church, I don’t recognize it anymore.”
The book was aimed primarily at seniors, if I recall correctly.
The book sounded like it would be sympathetic to seniors who saw their churches change and were alarmed by the changes. But I read long passages from it (provided free on Amazon’s preview system).
The author, though, spends the book telling seniors to just get over it and deal, that it’s more important to change a church’s format to win over the youngsters.
The attitude of the author was one showing little consideration of the feelings, worries, concerns, or little consideration for the time/money invested by these people in their churches over years/decades.
They were expected by the author to roll over and play dead, let the preacher change everything to appeal to 20 year olds, but they were still expected to fork over tithes to financially support changes they don’t agree with.
Some seniors left very grumpy reviews (entirely understandable) saying the book is not what they were expecting.
They were expecting a book to defend them and tell them how to stand up to change in a church, instead the book chews them out for being fuddy duddies who don’t like change.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Not that I blame them for asking that out of curiosity, but isn’t it irrelevant?
The Bible says the Spirit gives what HE chooses to give.
So, even if you want, say, the gift of mercy, but the Spirit chooses to give you the gift of encouragement, guess which you’re going to get?
It looks to me that you don’t get a “say” in what gift you get.
Chris wrote:
An STD at that – get in bed with Acts 29 and get the unholy herpes
Mr.H wrote:
And arrogating to themselves the title of “Elder” ala 18 year-old Mormon “missionaries” sporting their title of “Elder” on their name badges.
@ john g:
Thanks for that link. Dr. Nicholas sounds like he had a heart of gold. I look forward to watching the memorial service.
Acts29 pastor, Winfield Blevins, wrote:
http://theresurgence.com/authors/winfield-bevins
@ JeffT:
STD = Spiritually Transmitted Domination
Acts 29 and the other variances as described by KD and Daisy is Cannibalistic Christianity. They eat their young – and their old.
Speaking of paper pushers, whenever I see Seneca’s comments I have this mental image of Ulrich Mühe who plays Stasi Captain Gerd Wiesler in The Lives of Others, carefully monitoring and recording TWW for any mention of his/her sacred cows.
Seneca wrote:
Seneca if in real life you were a marriage or professional counselor there are two things you can say that will work like novocaine on your clients.
1. “John Piper says you submit”
2. “Are you sinfully craving answers?”
@ former Sojourn member:
I’d love to hear your story about Sojourn. That would be fascinating.
Daisy wrote:
Was this it, Daisy? http://www.amazon.com/Who-Stole-My-Church-Century/dp/0785230491
I feel so sorry for seniors. They’re the stalwarts in the churches and in the faith and they’re not valued.
@ Daisy:
The gifts you mention (mercy and encouragement) are both charismata (grace gifts) from Romans 12. Tongues (and wisdom) are both phaneroses (manifestations, literally referring to a flash of light) from 1 Cor 13 which are described differently. The grace gifts are usually thought to be characteristics we are essentially born with – since the same chapter instructs us not to think of ourselves more highly than we ought etc. The manifestations are distributed for when we come together and the implication is that they are not specifically permanent.
Besides which, the Biblescriptures encourage us to ask. Especially for wisdom!
I have some experience with this topic.
About 10 years ago my family and I joined start up church in a fast-growing community outside Nashville TN. We met in a grade-school for a few years and had no paid staff. We had about 60 people and everyone pitched in to set-up, tear down, pay the bills, and take care of each other. People were used according to their gifts regardless of gender. The gospel was preached: good news that the kingdom of heaven is at hand and God’s grace is available to save and transform all who would come. After a couple of years we hired a young pastor who was a recent graduate of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, KY. He was (and still is) a gifted, charismatic speaker. Initially he continued along the theological vein within which our church was birthed and we were known as “that church where all they teach is ‘grace, grace, grace’ “.
We grew quickly under our new pastor – the community in which we live is one of the fastest-growing towns in the US and the demographics are primarily young-families. We moved our church into a modified commercial-building space and within 3 years we went from 50-60/week up to 500-600 per week. It was during this time of rapid growth that my wife and I noticed changes in the ‘feel’ of the church. First, women were gradually removed from all positions of leadership. The message became one of: “God’s grace is available to all, but are you REALLY saved? Here’s a litmus test to help you find out….”. I remember one morning at the gym when my racquetball partner lamented something to the effect of “another sermon that left him wondering if he was really saved”. There was an emphasis on “rock stars” (pastor’s words, not mine) like Spurgeon, Piper, Keller, and Calvin. The book table was stocked with books reflecting a Reformed theological perspective. You see where this is going.
We hired two associate pastors who were of a similar mind as our senior pastor who was now titled “senior teaching pastor”. One of the associate pastors in particular would put out some really provocative facebook posts and blogs – the one that moved us to action was when he posted (I kid you not) that “the world produces two types of women: whores and women with low self-esteem”. When called on this by several members of our congregation, he equivocated by saying that apart from Christ, these are indeed the only two types of women. When further pressed about his use of the word ‘whore’, his post magically disappeared and he wrote a 1200-word blog on the church website to demonstrate how women apart from Christ exhibit ‘whorish’ behavior. That blog has since disappeared as well. I had assumed at some point he would post some kind of an apology or retraction but there was nothing.
I met with the senior pastor about this and some other concerns I was having with the direction of the church and he insinuated that the offending post came down because he brought pressure to bear on the associate pastor. He did defend the use of the word “whore” because – as he put it- ‘whore’ is used in the Bible so it is Biblical. I also asked our senior pastor point-blank if he was a 5-point Calvinist, and he said that yes he was. I asked him why our church was listed as being a Gospel Coalition church, and he denied this but did admit that he had registered on the Gospel Coalition website. His equivocation here was that our church was listed on the GC website as being theologically consistent with GC reformed theology, but not actually a GC Church.
In summary, I noticed that there was a great deal of equivocation going on with the theology of our church. The only books recommended for reading were Gospel-Coalition-approved books and authors. Words such as “intentional”, “missional”, “making Jesus famous”, were commonplace.
The senior pastor started to use more materials from Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill – doing a series on “Real Marriage” and “The 7″. Driscoll was one of the “rock stars” and to voice criticism of Driscoll was met with outright defensiveness and charges of “divisiveness”. There were several other red flags that went up for my wife and I, but in short – we left the church a little over a year ago because it became clear that our directions had diverged. Shortly after leaving the elder board voted to become part of the Acts 29 movement. Ray Ortlund and Trevin Wax have come to speak at the church on different occasions. Our young “senior teaching pastor” is a rising star in the Nashville – area Christian community.
Here is what I have to say about all of this: 1. It is clear that the spiritual path of this church had diverged from that of me and my family – so we left and found a home in another good church. 2. I am absolutely convinced that the pastor and staff of our former church love the Lord. 3. I am absolutely convinced that Jesus is using this church to get His work done. 4. The absolute last thing I want to do is to do harm to the body of Christ. I could have stayed and “made my stand”, but at what harm to that body? I am by no means silent and am willing to listen – but sometimes it is clear that the Lord is just leading you personally in a different direction. 5. I love the people and leadership in our former church and they are not evil bad guys because they are Calvinist. I think the pastors are young and arrogant – full of “piss and vinegar”, if you will. But my primary concern for them is that they don’t become corrupted by their fame and success.
Dee, maybe you can fix this… I had some ascii characters that were causing problems. Here we go again…
In summary, I noticed that there was a great deal of equivocation going on with the theology of our church. The only books recommended for reading were Gospel-Coalition-approved books and authors. Words such as “intentional”, “missional”, “making Jesus famous”, were commonplace.
The senior pastor started to use more materials from Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill – doing a series on “Real Marriage” and “The 7”. Driscoll was one of the “rock stars” and to voice criticism of Driscoll was met with outright defensiveness and charges of “divisiveness”. There were several other red flags that went up for my wife and I, but in short – we left the church a little over a year ago because it became clear that our directions had diverged. Shortly after leaving the elder board voted to become part of the Acts 29 movement. Ray Ortlund and Trevin Wax have come to speak at the church on different occasions. Our young “senior teaching pastor” is a rising star in the Nashville – area Christian community.
Here is what I have to say about all of this: 1. It is clear that the spiritual path of this church had diverged from that of me and my family – so we left and found a home in another good church. 2. I am absolutely convinced that the pastor and staff of our former church love the Lord. 3. I am absolutely convinced that Jesus is using this church to get His work done. 4. The absolute last thing I want to do is to do harm to the body of Christ. I could have stayed and “made my stand”, but at what harm to that body? I am by no means silent and am willing to listen – but sometimes it is clear that the Lord is just leading you personally in a different direction. 5. I love the people and leadership in our former church and they are not evil bad guys because they are Calvinist. I think the pastors are young and arrogant – full of “piss and vinegar”, if you will. But my primary concern for them is that they don’t become corrupted by their fame and success.
Keith wrote:
If they are listening to Driscoll, they already have been.
@ Keith:
“But my primary concern for them is that they don’t become corrupted by their fame and success” — I heard a great theory today, that growth towards maturity ends when fame/celebrity begins. The quote was said in relation to Justin Beiber, but I’m seeing universal applicability…
@ Eagle:
I came across Sojourn while looking for a church. I was sold on the promise of community, ‘solid’ Reformed theological teaching and the potential of having found a home. At the time I was very impressed with Mark Driscoll and listened to his podcasts and downloaded his sermons, and I wanted a similar church experience here in town.
Sojourn in my experience is probably Mars Hill without a Driscoll-type figure, and with heavy influence from Mahaney/SGM, Dever/9Marks, and the other neo-Reformed figures. It had the community groups, the hip, cutting-edge music, the hipster crowd, the arts gallery, a venue that served as the sanctuary on Sundays and rented out to indie bands during the week (though most of the acts tended to be Sojourn members). We even had the Redemption groups.
Community was a mixed bag – without getting into too much of my personal situation, let me say it wasn’t what was promised. CGs had the ‘everyone together’ time, followed by the male/female split for confession and prayer. I was lauded for being ‘open’ and ‘honest’ – even as I wondered at times if I was too much so (I was also asked by that same leader if I was in sin when I called him while suffering through an intense bout of depression one night). The biggest issue I have with the CGs was how the leaders were rotated upwards each year (and the groups effectively dispersed), leading me to a different group each year.
Also, as the church grew bigger, it turned into more of a business, and my ability to serve using my gifts was marginalized. I found myself less and less able to hang out and meet with certain people among the leaders and staffers; it appeared to me that the leaders and staffers were being separated from the laity.
Finally, I had trouble with a number of things – my work schedule, my issues with how the service FOR ME tended to be ‘herd them in to listen to music and a speech, with a demand for money’ deal (to be fair, I have that issue with all churches), and the church membership document. I was told that it was not legally binding, and signed it with much reluctance.
To be fair, the leaders I worked with were gracious, working with me despite my flaws and complaints, and I was released (as far as I know) from my covenant/contract. I left in part because of what I saw going down with Driscoll, MHC, SGM, Mahaney and the neo-Calvinists and couldn’t be a part of it any longer. I no longer wanted to be part of a church that welcomed their influence, and am glad to this day I left.
I do not think anyone who leads Sojourn – including the former Mars Hill Church elders/staffers currently in leadership there – are evil men. I think they’re good people, who love their Lord, and probably want to both spread the gospel and protect their business. But if someone were to ask me, I would tell them my experience; about Sojourn’s influence from the various Reformed figures and groups; and for them to understand what it is they’re getting into before they commit to anything.
Bob Jones University has tweeted, and Janet Mefferd retweeted, that she is speaking at the BJU campus today and tomorrow: https://twitter.com/BJU_PR/status/408599576837242880
I posted previously about Mefferd’s connection to BJU here:
http://peelingbackthecurtain.blogspot.com/2013/11/my-comments-at-wartburg-watch.html
Sorry, wrong thread.
@ Keith: I added this part to your original comment. 🙂
@ Leslie:@ Leslie: I thank God for you, a child of God in his church, that knows his word, and is able to discern, via the Holy Spirit, the err and manuverings the occur with those who put their trust in organizations like Acts 29 – a.k.a. the evangelical mega church.
God Bless you for being an active follower of Christ, and not like so many passive christians who refuse to get involved.
@ Daisy:
Yes it does. I was Purpose Driven out of a church I dearly loved.
There is a book called Transitioning by Dan Southerland. The subtitle is Leading Your Church Through Change. Rick Warren wrote the forward and says of the book, “One of the most exciting and encouraging examples of transitioning from being program driven to purpose driven.” It is all about how to change your church from what it is to what it is supposed to be according to your (supposedly) God given vision.
The chapter on “Planting the Vision” actually has this as key point #1:
“Secure the approval of the power brokers”
Of course, once you’ve done that all that’s left is the mop up, really.
Except, of course, you will face opposition.
So there is an entire chapter on dealing with opposition in which those who oppose the change are called “Sanballats” (the whole book is based on Nehemiah) who are presented in the worst possible light with inferences such as “leader from hell,” “ornery,” “mean,” “whiners,” “troublemakers,” and “not interested in being biblical”. Among others. Feel the love.
There are 8 chapters in the book. In my opinion a better title for this book would be “On Hijacking Your Church: How to Go from Pastor to Pirate in 8 Easy Lessons.”
How this kind of take overism came to Acts 29 I am not clear on. From what I understand, both Driscoll and Warren have some kind of association with a group called The Leadership Network which may or may not mean anything. I don’t know anything about them so I can’t comment there. I also want to say both of them were involved to some degree with Peter Drucker, but I’m not absolutely sure about Driscoll on that.
But all this stuff does have the same DNA. It certainly has the same feel. I never did figure out how to put all the pieces together or what the real origin of it all was.
I read about these take overs from Acts 29 or where ever and it’s like deja vu all over again.
@ Shannon H.:
I think so, thank you.
Folks should look at the one star reviews, like the one by
“Boy, did I misunderstand the title of this book., October 24, 2010 By BailyOne”
@ formerly anonymous:
Dan Southerland is frightening. Part of a lecture he gave is played and reviewed here: http://www.fightingforthefaith.com/2010/02/special-edition-the-cultlike-hostile-takeover-tactics-of-the-purposedriven-church-transtioning-semin.html
Matt Chandler speaks often about not coming in and blowing things up..especially about taking for granted the faith of the congregation and their fruitful work. DO SOME RESEARCH.
@ Scott:
I think you have a typo in your statement. Want to try again?
Haitch wrote:
A while back I heard RT Kendall preaching on, among other things, the differences between Saul and David, and he argued that the worst thing that can happen to a Christian is to succeed before s/he is ready. And that when God delays your rise within your chosen field, he is doing you a favour. I think Kendall (for whom I have a great deal of regard, incidentally) was right.
Park Fiscal regularly inserts the phrase “by God’s grace” when, for instance, describing how big Mars Hill has grown. That my own calling didn’t grow to prominence when I was in my 20’s really is God’s grace.
Haitch – I think your cited theory has a lot of merit. I’ve observed several examples of power-hungry or self-important church leadership at close quarters and the common theme has been that of young men favoured from an early age.
Daisy wrote:
@ NC Now: I attempted to correct it so that it makes more sense now. 🙂
Scott wrote:
It really doesn’t matter what he says when, in fact, it happens, and they are still supporting the guy as a role model for other pastors. Its called “both sides of the mouth still moving.”
And as for the “Do Some Research” we do. I bet we have read more of the Acts 29 website along with other info than most people who are members of Acts 29.
So, it is our hope that by printing this actual church decimation, Acts 29 will be more attune to the screwups. One of the signs of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Read the story as it progresses. We have so much info-church credit card charges, etc.
Perhaps then you will do your own research and ask why this guy is a role model.
Nicholas wrote:
Fascinating. Here are the take home points.
“1. Flat out lies and manipulative double speak
2. Blatant Scripture Twisting
3. New & Direct Extra Biblical Revelation and Visions from God
4. Flat out intolerance for anyone who questions or challenges these “new” Extra Biblical Revelations and Visions that are supposedly from God.”
@ dee: Let me do an analysis looking at Mark DRiscoll since it really doesn’t matter the theology since it is all about power.
1. I did you a favor by coming on this show.
2. Queen Esther is a trollop
3.Pornovision
4. Throw people under the bus.
Yep-it fits.
Lin wrote:
Good night! At that point, start a blog. It really irritates them.
Dee, can I suggest that everyone with a blog should put Mefferd’s documents up on Dropbox and link to them from their blog? A sea of blogs hosting these documents would be a great sign of solidarity with those exposing the truth.
former Sojourn member wrote:
There are so many striking parallels to my own story here! I also was baited into the “solid biblical” culture that seemed to be rescuing me from mediocrity and lack of vision. After almost five years of sacrificially giving/serving relentlessly, I realized that it simply was not my church, that I was simply a contributor to “the vision”. When I asked tough questions, I was pushed out.
I could substitute “LCC” for “Sojourn” for almost all your experience. The membership covenant, constant changing of community groups, lots of talk about “messy community” but avoidance of the real thing , leadership exclusivity, and an overall sense that THIS IS the superior “GOSPEL-CENTERED” way of following Jesus.
Through resources like TWW, I have found out that my experience actually was not an isolated one. It still hurts like crazy, but the healing process is aided in exposure to other similar stories. May God expediate it for both you, I, and the many others who are escaping the fish hook.
formerly anonymous wrote:
I remember the pastor of my former institution citing Peter Drucker. The controlling aspect of appointed leaders “shepherding” groups and the “discipleship” stuff are all connected to Drucker. It is also connected to this whole idea of “healthy churches” and how to measure it.
@ Joel: A number of readers on this blog and others have done just that. We need to coordinate it with one another. Nothing has been lost which is great. When I have a minute, I will go through the comments here and elsewhere and maybe post the links in separate post.
Erik wrote:
Think of it this way. You are a young guy. Many people have stayed in such a group for all of their adult lives and discover the farce after their kids rebel or they are hurt beyond belief. You have a head start on many of them and I know you will do well.
Erik wrote:
It is pretty hard to measure the Holy Spirit so they are reduced to a numbers game. With the numbers, they can cook the books to make it look far better than it is.
Erik wrote:
I believe it. Step 8 in the Transitioning book is Evaluating the Results.
@ Erik:
I, too, was in a church that developed these characteristics. Sadly, I think there are a lot of them out there.
@ Leslie:
Would you mind expounding a bit forvme on the weird beliefs directly from YWAM. I would like to know if you are talking about other things besides all the different denominations that influence them. My daughter did YWAM 8 years ago, my niece is going this winter, and we have good friends who became leaders about ten years ago and eventually settled as leaders still in South Africa. The only weird things that my daughter experienced were just the various secondary issues like we all discuss here. I thought it was good for her to be exposed to all the different teachings.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
I fully agree with you about nipping things in the bud, so that out of a small acorn-sized heresy a mighty religiously deluded oak tree movement doesn’t grow.
The only objection to citing Wiesel in this context is that it could be miscontrued as comparing the bust ups that go on in churches to the vastly more serious persecution of say the Third Reich, even if this is not intended.
[Going from the sublime to the ridiculous, your Glen Ogle got a mention on national German TV last night!]
Ken wrote:
I didn’t see that one coming…!
Erik wrote:
This is a trip down memory lane from my involvement in churches following the seeker sensitive model. From what I recall, Drucker was trying to import worldly modern management techniques into the church, which was then run more like a business, with the gospel as a product needing to be ‘marketed’ to the public, the pastor the CEO with his leadership team.
The problem is the church is not a business. If only this could be recognised, all the talk of taking over churches would cease, this is simply a reflection of mergers and take overs in the business world. Empire building. Ego trips.
Any church running on biblical lines should never need ‘taking over’ anyway. It’s not ‘our’ church in the first place.
‘We know we are of God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one’, including the world of business management and administration, so not a very good place to go for information on planting or running churches.
@ Erik:
I am having a difficult time wanting to be invalid in my church of late also. They seem to be heading more into the same mindset that you are taliking about. I just don’t get it. They talk so much about how we need to be invalid in community and even the surrounding community. Then they start demanding that all ‘leaders’ notionally be in the leadership training classes, even though I’m just one of many table discussion facilitators at women’s bible study.
I am also now feeling the pressure to be at every Sunday service because I table ‘lead.’ And throughout the years small groups has been encouraged but not enforced and now the home group participation is being enforced and the topic must be the last Sunday sermon. How, I ask, am I supposed to have time to be involved in my community…I am a sports coach and I still play sports AND be a contributing member to the church. Oh I get it, I’m only supposed to be involved in the community enough to draw more people into the building and become a community all separate from the community. Hence, another cult evolves.
Involved! I said involved! Not invalid!
O boy, notionally? That’s actually a word that auto correct found? I meant continually.
@ Patti:
It’s a shame typos cannot be post edited, so that after Post Comment mistakes are enshrined for all to see for the rest of eternity! 🙂
formerly anonymous wrote:
How convenient.
Use Nehemiah as a pretext to reorganize your church and consolidate your power, then marginalize the opposition by branding them as “Sanballats.” If they disagree – beat them up. Brilliant!
Here is how it’s done: http://joyfulexiles.com/i-break-their-noses
—
@ Ken:
Yes it would be nice. Funny though how the auto correct is usually the worst when I am SO sure of my spelling and typing skills that I arrogantly decide not to proofread before posting…sigh.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Well, now, don’t omit Russia and China and Cambodia and VietNam and Sudan and the Slovaks/Czechs and the Congo and –very few?
Ken wrote:
There is a lot to be learned from the twentieth century including but not limited to the Nazi Era. Eric Metaxis in his biography of Bonhoffer talks about the state church in Germany and also the confessing church movement during that era. No way people should fail to learn from that era just because somebody else might feel trivialized. Better to feel trivialized now, if one is inclined to that sort of thing, based on some assumed slight than to live to see that mess repeated, even in a limited way, on oneself and one’s offspring. And one essential to avoid a repeat is to be informed and aware and determined to not repeat the same mistakes. Now way there is any reason or excuse for us today to fail to continue to learn from the time of the horrors.
For example:
I read a book with the title, if I remember exactly, The Nazi Doctors. It recounted the historical development of the change in thinking and position of the medical profession in Germany which allowed it to co-operate at worst and remain silent at best to genocide and euthanasia and forced abortion and eugenics. As I read the book I came to see how, yes, it could happen here to us medical professionals all in the name of compassion and expediency and triage gone mad and survival of the most, and the idea that what somebody else does in nobody else’s business. People have to know how thinking goes wrong in order to avoid it. Especially when, as is the case in both health care and in the church, there is a fine line to be determined in decision making. In fact, some of the thinking that grew into the European horrors are in place but to a lesser degree right here and right now. For example, how much it is in my own best interest to just keep my mouth shut.
Another example:
A day or two ago on the NBC news website, Amnesty International had reported the expansion of labor camps (often killing camps) in North Korea. We know from other sources and reports some of the sorts of things one might do to end up in such a place, including, according to the report on NBC news, GOSSIP. They want to silence information and criticism. Sound familiar? We have lots of folks being taught in church that everything except silence is gossip. Ideas like that can get started and then spread like an epidemic, especially among the unwary and the uninformed. So, I am saying treat the disease at the first symptom What is that old saying, “a stitch in time saves nine?” No telling how many are saved if a populace continues to learn from history.
@ Nancy:
Yes. There are millions of small acts of victimisation around the word every week. Perhaps I should have said: a given individual act of abuse, happening in front of you or me, is unlikely to explode into genocide, but it still matters because you never know what one action (of abuse – or of kindness) will escalate into.
For that matter, a cultural acceptance of mistreatment doesn’t have to result in genocide to be bad. The creeping marginalisation of the poor and downtrodden we’re seeing in the UK (the demonising of the unemployed themselves and the rise of zero-hour contracts for the working poor) is no Holocaust. But it is still deeply wrong and it is my life’s work to stand against it. It was Industrial Britain that invented the workhouse – God forbid that should happen again.
Patti wrote:
Patti, that is exactly what my family went through. For example, I was teaching the kids just about every Sunday morning during the 9am service. I am an elementary teacher, so I certainly loved being with the kids. But, I am also a father of 2 young children, and a husband of wife who has Lupus. There were many weeks when serving was not the greatest joy. There weren’t many people available to serve after the church began having two services. Volunteers were encouraged to serve in one service and then be able to sit in the second service. That alone was a big time commitment. Later, a new policy was made that volunteers had to be available to serve in either service, not just their preference. My young children and wife’s health could not thrive with that inconsistency, so I had to resign from serving in the kids’ ministry. That was part of a bigger picture I was seeing that THE SYSTEM, VISION, MISSION, or whatever they wanted to call it was more important than relationships. People don’t really matter. They say they do, but the facts show otherwise.
I even asked one of the leaders directly if they were “willing to sacrifice” people in order to develop whatever model they are following. I was directly and explicitly told that “the greater good” was more important than any one individual. This philosophy is destroying genuine loving community at that church, in my experience.
Like you said, Patti, the undercurrents of pressure to conform cause people to feel less spiritual or less of a Jesus follower. At LCC, there was a whole sermon series on being “missional”, which translated to serving, active participation in Life Groups, and giving. Everything else was rhetoric around that expectation. I was a Life Group leader, so I do not write this from ignorance. Leaders met and discussed who could be an “apprentice” to lead their own group. Church attenders were basically evaluated. I regret that I was part of that. I really do.
I resonate completely with your struggle to experience the natural rhythm of your life. Funny thing, my former church talked a lot about that, but my experience was quite the opposite. If God sovereignly places us in the job and neighborhood we are at, why do we need to put so much extra effort shifting and adjusting to revolve around church? If, we in fact are THE CHURCH, then things are exactly as God wants them to be, aren’t they? Where is the room to breathe? To rest?
I encourage you to explore other people’s stories around this site and others. Jesus says that “His yoke is easy and light.” Are you experiencing that? If not, ask Jesus why. I’ve been surprised at the answers He has been giving to me and my family.
And, if you really were an “invalid” how would your church value you? Would you be able to “be on mission”, “plugged in”, or “radical” if you were an invalid?
__
“Sly Spiritual Substitution: Discerning Minds Tell A Different Tale?”
…send us your experience?
hmmm…
The (Ed. legally binding) membership agreement/covenant, constant changing of community groups, lots of talk about “messy community” but avoidance of the real thing , leadership exclusivity, and an overall sense that THIS IS the s-u-p-e-r-i-o-r “GOSPELY-CENTERED” way ta follow Jesus.
What?
sounds like a ‘playpin’ for religious tyranny, don’t it?
(how do Kind Folk get sucked into dis stuff, anyway?)
stranger dan fiction…
You got it.
(sadface)
spread your pretty lit’l wings and fly…
Sooy
___
Notz:
Laura Nyro – Eli’s comin’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfW41eKUkKE
The Beatles – ‘Rain’ (Rare footage) HD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aOJGJD-SQc
Intermission/Popcorn time: The Broadway Sound: ‘West Side Story’ (Balcony Scene) – BBC Proms 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3d1wrj4riQ
;~)
—
dee wrote:
Thanks Dee! I turn 40 next month. I must be at least 10 years older than you and Deb, right? 😉
Not sure which WW blog article is actually the best under which to post this, but for all of us who are weary of the hierarchal claims of today’s celebrity/authoritarian church “leaders,” here is a refreshing read.
http://ctkblog.com
@ Seneca:
You have no idea who the real Kevin Galloway is…it would be nice before you judge you actually let them tell the whole story and listen to the others whose stories so mirror mine. It really is sad that people refuse to hear the truth of Acts 29. If you think what happened to me cannot happen to you then you are sadly mistaken.
“Frank wrote:
The congregation may see themselves as rebels, but they are not rebels. They are living their lives vicariously through the pastor. Thus, the pastor’s life (extravagances, irrational behavior) begins to feel like their own.
EvieSeneca (ed.)What a sad misinformed and brainwashed human you are, please go back to worshiping at your altar of relevance while the rest of us get busy with serving the risen king.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
As someone who spent some considerable time being unemployed and had to eat humble pie over a wrong attitude to others who had gone before me whom I though weren’t really looking for work, I fully support you in making a stand against the oppression of the poor. It’s an area where Christian values need to be asserted against the worldliness of valuing people by their job or status, especially when the ‘content of their character’ for many so-called successful people leaves much to be desired.
@ Rebecca Lynn:
Sorry Evie I meant to reply to Seneca again, forgive me… I am so sick of people blindly following, being afraid to question, and rubber stamping poor behavior. It broke my heart walking through what I did. It breaks my heart still to see others facing this choice, leave quietly and keep you reputation or STAND and watch everything you are be torn down.
Anon wrote:
That’s because “Elder” is a rank title within the Mormon priesthood — “Second Order, First Rank.” Mormon gamer friend told me that “Joseph Smith was as much into elaborate class-and-level names as Gary Gygax was in OD&D.”
@ Joe:
“The congregation may see themselves as rebels, but they are not rebels. They are living their lives vicariously through the pastor. Thus, the pastor’s life (extravagances, irrational behavior) begins to feel like their own.”
++++++++++++++++++++
quite a truth there. to be widened to professional Christian luminaries and their concentric circles on out to their respective riff raff.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Are you referring to The Curse of Runaway Early Success?
@ Erik:
That’s nothing. I turn 45 and a half next month.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Precisely so, HUG.
Erik wrote:
😯 Jesus told the story of the shepherd leaving the 99 to go look for the one missing. The people at your former church must not be aware of that story or choose to ignore it. 😯 😯 😯
Erik wrote:
Sounds good to me! 😉
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I just turned 58.
Got you all beat. 2/3 of a century here, as of late last month.
And the Deebs have adult daughters. So don’t make them victims of sexual abuse as early teens.
Erik wrote:
Patti and Erik,
That struck a. nerve! I was involved with a church re-plant 5 years ago. This is the straw that broke the camel’s back for me. The congregation was told during a Q&A session that they would be put under church discipline if they did not join a community group and attend it regularly. And the topic that was to be discussed each week was the sermon.
@Patti: It was one of the early signs that something was up in my church – the first sign that there was an attempt to “standardize” all teaching under one pastor – when these young pastors began running around trying to get all of us to teach on the sermon topic each week. It gives control of the bully platform, church-wide, to the person in the pulpit. Be warned!
Here are four instructive links regarding YWAM: http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/youthwithamission.html
http://truthforhomer.blogspot.com/2011/03/ywam-vs-bible.html
http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/2007/12/25/my-experience-with-ywam-pt-1/
http://ywhammed.wordpress.com/
There are many more. It don’t take to heart what I see on any old blog. I usually surf around for a while and if I see the same thing over and over again, especially from those who make the comments of mature and grounded Christians or from mainstream writers/teachers in orthodox Christianity, it’s a pretty good bet that the claims are true. These sites are merely representative; the web is replete with similar ones.
A church should not be dictating what goes on in peoples’ homes. By and large it was our founders’ Christian worldview that caused them to protect freedoms and liberties regarding our homes in the founding documents. If you belong to a church that believes it has authority over your home, there is a problem. CHRIST has authority over your home if you have given your life to Him, but that authority does not translate to church leaders in a healthy church.
In my church, that is where the Acts 29-ers are getting stuck. Mature Christians run our mid-week covenant groups from their homes and they are not about to be dictated to by these young, immature pastors. The young pastor who is pushing the conformity has even asked our mid-week prayer group to devote a session to praying that this goal will be achieved because of the “resistance”. When the session comes up, a number of us who regularly go will refuse to pray for that objective. Instead, if he is still employed by our church at that point (!), we will pray for God to give him the wisdom to understand that he is not the only conduit through which God teaches others (ha ha ha)
@Nancy and others: The “fine line” we must walk as our evangelical churches in this country devolve and weaken should be much more clear after learning from Germany’s experience (and that of many others throughout history). It is no accident that Eric Metaxas focused on the German churches in Bonhoeffer. Chuck Colson predicted that this weakening would occur here. Despots who study history realize that the Church is the front line when it comes to taking over a people. They must go after the Church in order to get society at large to buy in to letting go of their freedoms. Through the Centurions program (in which Eric is one of a handful of faculty), the Colson Center for Worldview has been preparing for this situation for over 10 years. I went through the program 3 years ago – the last year of Chuck’s life, in fact. We are trained in the importance of guarding orthodoxy and why it matters – not just for our churches, but in order to preserve all that is important to us about freedom and personal dignity in this country.
We can no longer afford to fall off on the side of “don’t gossip” or “this church is no longer meeting my needs”. Some of us must stay and fight to preserve orthodoxy, as in Jude 3. It is a serious responsibility. Colson recognized the need for mature Christians in American churches to be trained to stand up against efforts to weaken the Church.
When this Acts 29 stuff began happening in my church, although it took a while to realize the seriousness of it (I thought it was the young pastors bumbling around and making mistakes at first), I had an advantage because of having already been trained in the importance of this responsibility. It kept me from hesitating, and helped to fight off the “voices” that say “don’t cause dissention in the church”; “be a good (i.e. quiet and accepting) Christian”; “don’t gossip”; “promote unity”; etc.
Chuck used to say, “Ideas have consequences!” They really do, and they are worth fighting for. (I must say, though, that I’m spending a LOT of time in prayer, asking God to keep me from sin in attitude of heart and to guide me in doing this in the right way – with humility and grace, not with pride and anger. Sometimes I feel jealous for His glory and it can switch into anger if I don’t watch the flesh.)
In protecting orthodoxy, we step into the shoes (even if in a smaller and less capable way) of Justin the Martyr, Luther, Bonhoeffer and so many others whom we admire through history (plus many behind the Iron curtain, in China and elsewhere whom we will never know) who cried out against abuses and infection in the church and risked their lives (or gave their lives) for this important cause. We have enjoyed the life we have had, with the freedoms we have enjoyed, because of their sacrifices and contributions to the development of Western civilization. Now it’s our turn. Stand strong!
I cannot control the outcome of this clash within my church, but it is my job to fulfill the charge of Jude 3, and God has the rest in His hands. If you are in this situation and thinking about just walking away after investing in the life of a local church without making a stand, perhaps you have not completely worked out what it means to be a Christian – a Christ-follower. He did not walk away from abuses in the religious circles of His day, nor did the disciples whom He trained and encouraged. He got his hands dirty, so to speak, and stood up for what was right.
I will post an update in several days after a few key meetings early next week. Thanks to all of you who are praying. It is truly a battle in the spiritual realm. By praying, you participate along with me in protecting orthodoxy : )
PS sorry for the long post!!
@ Leslie:
Thanks for those wonderful insights. Please know that I will be praying for you.
I visited Mr Mark Driscoll’s church one fine Sunday morning.
Coldest flipping church I’ve ever been to.
It bears mentioning, I visited on Christmas.
Anon 1 wrote:
@ Chris:
I’d like to hear more about what happened.
I was up in Seattle visiting my brother for Christmas, and I thought I should take the opportunity to go see “The Church”.
I don’t know of it’s the small, Norwegian Lutheran Church I was raised in (you know, the “all hands on deck, everyone pitch in” equality, the after church potlucks, the freedom to just grow in your own relationship with Christ without a pre-written plan), or the fact that I actually think Sunday morning should be a joyful thing, but I couldn’t tell the difference between walking into the Ballard campus, and a secular University lecture hall. Not to say there’s anything wrong with lecture halls. But at least you arrive mentally prepared, so the coldness doesn’t throw you as much.
I expect a lecture to be academic and impersonal. And I expect to have young, hip, college age guys roll their eyes at me when I dare show any enthusiasm. 🙂 I wasn’t prepared for that kind of reception at a Christmas church service.
The preaching pastor that Sunday was a guy who I understand no longer works there. Can’t remember his name, but from a distance he looked like Mark Driscoll at first. He was actually quite a good speaker. But as for being greeted, hearing, “Merry Christmas”, or any level of warmth at the visitors desk – nada. The only person I remember talking to was the 20 something guy behind the visitors desk, who rolled his eyes and turned away to talk to someone else when I tried to make conversation with him.
It was a really valuable perspective to gain! It’s funny because I remember reading a testimony from a former Mormon once, who said he was influenced the most for Christ by a woman who had kind of accidentally studied the Christian Bible, and came to know Christ in a real way. Even though she hadn’t technically left the LDS yet, the Lord had taken over. As a result, the meetings she led were the warmest, most love filled meetings he had ever been to.
I don’t agree with all the Lutheran doctrine I grew up with, but there was always love there. My Dad just oozed it.
This is what Mark is missing. He has everything figured out in his head, but he’s missing the love of Christ, imho. Love is patient, love is kind, love is not rude, love does not seem it’s own.
Sorry, typo! Seek it’s own I meant…
Big heads up for those feeling safe because their church is not YRR nor is it just plain old Reformed.
We encountered these same tactics years ago in a Wesleyan Holiness denom, and again quite recently in an ELCA church.
This systemic evil, which is what it is, isn’t just a matter of being Reformed, or SBC, or any particular group.
It seems to be like kudzu. Blink and it takes over another whole pasture.
__
“Read Da Proverbial Fine Print, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
Axe 29 – A 501(c)3, ‘missional’ (Ed. faux) church non-profit organization. Whereas a ‘hijacked’ (Ed. false) Calvinistic [missional] ‘trans-form-me-a-ton’ include(s) picturesque proverbial righteous-religious road kill and flagrantly graphic manipulations, and expulsions. Occupational hazard insurance is requested, but not required. Pedestrians are advised that the ‘recreational use’ of Axe 29 ‘products’ are at one’s own risk. Other un-pleasant ‘restrictions’ may very well apply. Axe 29 is ‘void’ where common sense is not prohibited. See the Holy Scriptures for details.
Skreeeeeeeeeeetch! Bump!
(crash)
Is Axe 29 actually another ‘masked’ proverbial religious sociological cult?
Hmmm…
Could b
(sadface)
*
(fast forward…)
hum, hum,hum…I’m going where the words of Jesus taste like wine,
I’m going where the words of Jesus taste like wine,
Gonna jump in dat river n’ stay drunk all da time… **
-snicker-
hahahahahaha
With my whole heart have I sought You, Oh! Lord, let me not wander from Your Sweet Words…
Lord, I have hid your promise(s) in my deepest heart, that I might not sin against you!
Blessed are you, O Lord: teach me your ways, and your statutes!
Amen!
*
…come a think of it, Nope, Nothing, Nada, Zip, Ziltch in our Christian life is more important or infinitely comparable to the value of learning God’s Word, and then taking the ‘time’ to incorporate His beloved precepts into our very lives…
This is extremely essential – not only to know God’s Word, but to know and grow strong in our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Yet, many a fellow Christian believer have neglected, maybe even negated and possibly severely marginalized this valuable discipline,
(sadface)
But, consider this: does not God, who saved us, and provides for us ‘daily’ deserve our very best?
(He who brings us outa darkness into His glorious light, most certainly, …gives us His ‘best’!)
What?
Reading God’s Word the Bible, today?
Hmmm…
…you’ll be glad you did!
“I can see clearly now da rain is gone?”
YaHoooooooo!
Sopy
___
** Comic relief: Canned Heat – “Going Up To The Country …”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdsz5Q7w308
Inspirational: Griffioenpresentatie Vu Popkoor: Sting’s ‘Heart Of Gold’ (cover)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz7CRCrH5pI
Just because: @Sting – ‘Fields of Gold’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeKE2Z-9HVM
;~)
—
@ Erik:
Really good stuff you said there Erik, thanks. And as far as you invalid comment, I know, I’ve had some precious God moments with people in the church that the leaders always overlook for any type of ministry because they don’t have a ‘look’ that fits their agenda.
@ Leslie:
good stuff, thanks
these church “replantings” sound more like hostile takeovers to me
Hostile takeovers are exactly what they are. I’ve actually heard them discussed as “stealing a building.” Apparently more are coming out of seminary than there are slots available, so folks were told to just plant a new church. Sort of grow your own.
And apparently some find that really difficult and slow going, so set out to just steal a building–legally. Our misfortune in one Wesleyan Holiness church was to be asked to be on the “adult evangelism committee.” Turned out to be anything but. There was a whole printed manual detailing the steps to take to “replant” aka steal the church.
We need to get back to the idea the church, under God, calls the pastor rather than God appoints a man to start or steal a church and everyone is supposed to volunteer as tithing units under him, the supreme commander.
@ born in east LA:
I couldn’t agree with you more.
born in east LA wrote:
Or hijackings.
Or banana republic coups.
Deb wrote:
“Sermon” or “Thoughts of Chairman Mao”?
Pingback: Gospel Centered Bus Driving | Thou Art The Man
@ Leslie:
This particular Cumberland Presbyterian Church, the largest in the denomination and also the most conservative, is not headed anywhere near Mar Hill and I wish you’d stop involving this blogosphere with rubbish. The secret society in our church called to bolster this unfounded rumor call themselves Centurions. Really, you all have a name for this nonsense.
Sorry folks…this will be fought out at the local level and does not involve any of you. I am sorry Leslie has brought this to you attention as she is very much mistaken…I am a long time member of the Church and have heard about these rumors too, but they are just that. The Session meeting tonight will lay to rest her fears about a Mar Hill “take over.”
To be sure, there are quite a lot of things that MH has said via YouTube which is very shocking as far as teachings and the Word…most of which is off base and smacks of Mega Church, TBN and Benny Hin. This is not where this Cumberland Presbyterian Church is headed. In fact, here is the link to our Confession of Faith (http://www.cumberland.org/gao/confession/CNFAITH_2010_printing.pdf) We have not strayed from it and we will not…nor are we in war with anyone to prevent it; it is just not happening. How a group of members thinks we are is beyond me. Too much T.V.?
Anyway, for not wanting to get anyone on this blog involved, I’ve said a lot. Again, sorry.
@ Lane Roberts: You probably know that Driscoll’s theology is very much “orthodox” as it is written. John Piper says “I love his theology.” Many others have said the same thing.
These confessions of faith are good and orthodox. However, it is in the application where the rubber meets the road. I would bet you would find the statements of beliefs very much matching your own. I hope that your session will be open, honest and kind, showing the love of Christ to all-particularly to those who are concerned.
linda wrote:
Who authored or published that manual? Would you post a link?
dee wrote:
Thank you for your kind words…they were honest and kind and addressed each alleged rumor point by point as originally presented by the accusers. All were proven unequivocally to be unfounded. Healing needs to take place now that fears have been put to rest.
We are Cumberland Presbyterians, true to our faith, not perfect, but under the healing Grace of Christ. We will not shun but will welcome those who have seen the truth of the matter with open Christian arms.
Peace
My former church is part of the C3 movement/Phil Pringer/Prosperity Gospel network. I’ve been recently listening to Matt Chandler who took over Acts29 and so far I like what i hear. he’s solid biblically. What do you naysayers think of Matt Chandler?
phatphish wrote:
Well, I know what you think about us.
But, to the question. The decimation of Countryside Church must be known to the leadership. The not only keep one of the failed church plants by this pastor on the Acts 29 site as a current church in good standing, but they have not responded to the pain by the members of this church who had to watch it fail. Also, the story of the pastor involved is still featured on the website which either means they endorse him or are so lax that they haven’t removed or updated the site.
So, it is my hope that Chandler will respond to the issues raised. If he doesn’t, you have your answer.
phatphish wrote:
So is the devil.
Well, of course, there is nothing wrong with being “solid biblically” (which means different things to different people, but means something eminently reasonable more often than not). I don’t know Matt Chandler and I have nothing against him. But whether he is solid biblically proves nothing useful in itself. If he loves the insignificant, the poor and the powerless, and champions their cause with no hope of gaining anything from it in this life, then he most likely has God’s love; in which case his bible-study etc has not been wasted.
phatphish wrote:
He seems like a nice guy who doesn’t attract constant controversy like Mark Driscoll. In one of these recent Acts29 posts I criticize one of his sermons and his concept of what “Wolves” are. Very wrong, IMO. It’s the only one I’ve read, so not a scientific sample.
I know that Matt Chandler blocked Julie Anne Smith on twitter, which at least suggests that he’s not willing to listen to any critique of his movement.
I discussed this sermon http://media.thevillagechurch.net/sermons/transcripts/201010171700FMWC21ASAAA_MattChandler_UltimateAuthorityPt4-GuidingAndConfrontingTheMess.pdf
on the Church Discipline Acts 29 style thread. The 6th paragraph has his descriptions of “wolves” who should be “shot”.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I can’t speak for Fiscal takeovers per se, but I’ve seen this kind of thing often enough to recognise certain symptoms. People who are trying to seize power and control will nearly always appeal for “unity”, yes, and to correct the “misunderstandings” of any who question them. What they want is unity beneath them.
It’s very clever, because it makes them appear gentle, safe, gracious and understanding; at the same time, of course, it makes those holding them to account appear the opposite.
This is what happened in a reformed congregation I attended with my family in the U.S. Deep South. New pastor almost immediately brought in an old friend of his from another town to be his right-hand man (beefy, weight-lifting fellow with bald head, looked vaguely like James Bond villain), unilaterally establishing him as an elder, then set about consolidating his power. He first appealed to the elders at a private meeting at his place–that started with a cookout and bonhomie–to grant him absolute power over the congregation. Of course, it was not presented as such, it was presented as “We’re all friends here, a ‘circle of friends’, why should we have these artificial rules, such as this church polity that sets you all against me, why should my actions be subject to being overseen by a board of elders when we’re just all good friends?” When I raised an objection, two elders, Mr. Bond Villain and Mr.-Tenderly-Young-And-Under-Svengali-Like-Control-of-Head-Elder Guy, immediately shouted me down, the former with words to effect of “So you just don’t trust R, do you?” and latter with “I think you’re in idolatry!” (I suppose of my view that there should be checks-and-balances in the church body). In any event, everyone–but me and one other–were intimidated into silence and the new dictatorial rule of pastor was agreed to by acquiescence. Within a couple months pastor took over all finances; this was kept very quiet, I only found out when Mr. Svengali Spell let it slip. Pastor then secretly cut off funding to the seminarian we were supporting and started spending the funds on expensive trips for pastor, right hand man and families to conferences with our denomination, New Frontiers. Eventually, all the main families left after some brutal behind the scenes maneuvering from the top, private screaming sessions at anyone who had a disagreement with pastor and the fact that the sermons became almost wholly void of Jesus (in my recollection, at one point going five or six weeks without a single mention of the name–but we did get a great deal of discussion about our duty to give and about the authority portions of Heb 13, a favorite topic of pastor. The church disbanded within two years after being reduced to about a fifth of its previous size.
Be very concerned when these types move in, once they get the money, it’s over.
@ LawProf:
Welcome to TWW.
Nothing hits home better than a true story. You have a unique way of conveying the events at your church. So, in true TWW fashion, I extend to you an offer to consider writing a post for TWW. We are very flexible on timing, method, and anonymity or not. Your story could help others and I am not saying that to be nice. Many of our stories have resulted in some changes in certain churches because the congregation was alerted to the tactics by those who read this blog.
Please let me know: dee@thewartburgwatch.com.
PS I really liked these names “Mr. Bond Villain and Mr.-Tenderly-Young-And-Under-Svengali-Like-Control-of-Head-Elder Guy,” I may steal these names for a future post!
LawProf:
If you can get together a small group of families from the former church, perhaps a new church can be organized and acquire the facilities. And start with a constitution that requires a meeting of the body to amend, with plenty of time to review proposed amendments. And specify lay leadership with the pastor and paid staff as employees, not bosses. Do not let the pastor be the moderator. Insulate the nomination and election process from the staff, and make it a bylaw that the pastor/staff only attends business meetings or committee meetings at the specific, each time, request of the committee or the moderator, in the latter case, approved by the previous business meeting. It prevents such takeovers. And any pastor who objects to this is likely to be intent on seizing power and control.
@ LawProf:
PS-Any correspondence with us is strictly confidential. We take that very seriously. Dee practices holding her breath in the shower each morning in case she is ever water boarded! 🙂
I don’t know the details of specific churches, but other than being upset with change, I’m unsure of the reason people are against Acts 29? If doctrinal views are different, then the Bible should be the authority. If the new pastor can explain why he believes what he believes from the Bible, maybe things do need to change? Also, one commenter said to be on the look out for words like “missional” “church planting churches” etc. Christians are supposed to be missional… that’s the great commission of Jesus! Christians should read the book of Acts, and then consider whether Acts 29 is Biblical or not.