Hubble Sets Sights on a Galaxy with a Bright Heart: This Hubble Space Telescope image shows the unbarred spiral galaxy NGC 5033, located about 40 million light-years away. NASA
“Thirst was made for water; inquiry for truth.” CS Lewis
Due to some unexpected stressors on my end, I am holding off on Tom Rich’s post until Friday and Jandy’s story until next week. However, I have a rather fun post for you. It appears that the social media dude at The Gospel Coalition is irritated that any old schmo has access to the the world via social media. They recently posted No Social-Media Algorithm Rewards Grace. This was written by Chris Martin who is “manager of social media at LifeWay Christian Resources, and he serves on staff at his church as leader of the student ministry.”
Apparently, he is concerned that social media will contribute to the fall of democracy. He quoted from Tobias Rose-Stockwell concluded an article titled, “The Dark Psychology of Social Media,”
f we want our democracy to succeed—indeed, if we want the idea of democracy to regain respect in an age when dissatisfaction with democracies is rising—we’ll need to understand the many ways in which today’s social-media platforms create conditions that may be hostile to democracy’s success. And then we’ll have to take decisive action to improve social media.
Democracy is best seen in an internet which allows *all sorts* like me to participate.* Then, the author brings us back to the good old days when everyone was friends.
The early years of social media were dedicated to connecting friends. It wasn’t much more complicated than that. There were no “timelines,” “news feeds,”
There is a certain naiveté here. The internet changed the world and the power of of communication, which used to rest in the hands of the journalists, pastors who ruled the microphone, etc. The internet changed the landscape. Suddenly, the average Joe (I am one of those) has the opportunity to have a voice. And that voice began to have influence. In fact, many social media platforms began to be respected news sources.
Yet the author makes a statement that Christian social media which vehemently addresses injustice helps no one. Except, that it has. The broader evangelical church has hidden abuse, especially abuse by pastors and Christian leaders. Had social media not been available to those of us little guys, church leaders would still be hiding behind closed doors.
Social-media conflict within the body of Christ helps no one because there’s no public incentive to resolve it. Until the conflict is taken offline or to a private online space, all parties involved are performing for their followers, whether they think about it or not.
To be frank, I am getting quite tired of all the whining about how awful people are on social media. Of course there are going to be jerks and creeps trolling on the internet. Yes, they will call you bad names and say nasty things. Social media only reflects the world at large.
The world is not like one large lecture hall or church auditorium in which a person gets to lecture to a group of people who are expected to take it and not answer back. Social media is a free for all and intelligent people can learn to use it benefit one’s cause du jour. Sometimes I wonder if certain Christians refuse to address a world that makes them feel uncomfortable or doesn’t treat them *properly.*
I use social media to address abuse in the church. That is my 9 ball shot. Others use media to discuss politics. I have been insulted, called names, and even had a letter sent to my church, complaining about my writing about Tom Chantry who is now serving a couple of decades in the local penitentiary. I have been made fun of by other Christians. Jared Wilson reported me to Twitter for hurting his feelings for calling him out when he made fun of an overweight woman singing the National Anthem at a ball game. I guess insulting women is an acceptable value of the BFFs of The Gospel Coalition. And he did what any good Christian celebrity would do… attempt to prevent me from accessing Twitter.
I fought back and Twitter backed off quite quickly. When someone trolls me on Twitter, I mute them. I also choose not to engage them. It’s amazing how silence causes a troll to fade into the background.
In the end, TGC/Martin want us to shut up and share recipes and pretty pictures.
Are you a gifted photographer? Take beautiful pictures of the world around you and share them with the world,
…Are you a gifted cook? Create a cooking social-media account devoted to the craft of cooking, celebrating the diverse tastes the Lord has gifted us.
According to Martin, whatever you do, do not bemoan injustice. Focus on *goodness.* We sure don’t want people hearing about those pastors who abuse children. It’s rather yucky, you know.
It’s pretty trendy to bemoan injustice on social media. People tend to be motivated by anger than they are by joy, so posts about how awful the world is tend to get far more attention than other kinds of posts.
Perhaps we need more believers celebrating the justice and righteousness we see in our world. Tell stories of the goodness you come across in a given day.
Except the author overlooks something really important. It is because people have spoken out against injustice that the SBC was forced to at least start to deal with their abuse problem. The same thing happened with the Catholic Church. It was those of us who shared the sad stories of Sovereign Grace Ministries that led to its fall.
Sure, pictures of mountains are beautiful. I often post pictures of the universe. However, speaking out against injustice is also beautiful as beautiful as those pictures.
Beauty can be seen in pictures and in justice. I think Martin knows that. I believe that he is expressing the frustrations that his BFFs in TGC/Acts29/SGC have been experiencing. Victims and their advocates are speaking out and being heard. And some of the brothers are in the hot seat.
The world has changed. The internet will not go away and average people will continue use it to express their opinions. Some of their opinions and thoughts will be excellent, just like those of some pastors. Some of their opinion will be mean spirited and abusive, just like those of some pastors.
TGC: It’s time to stop whining about mean people on the Internet. Instead, think about Jesus. How did He respond when he was treated poorly? “Father, forgive them.”
Uno
Now bloggers in the Greek Orthodox Church are talking about corruption there, too–and getting threats of lawsuits. Before, all I knew was what I read in the church newsletter.
I have a message for Chris Martin:
***Lead by example, buddy. Maybe you should stop telling people how to live and what to believe and start posting beautiful photos and scrumptious recipes!!! ***
I have a message for Dee, too:
*** You focus on goodness in every post…….. the goodness in people who have been badly hurt, as well as the goodness in the people who believe and support them. You are not an “average Joe”. You are fantastic!
You help rescue the inner beauty…. the beauty that really matters. Chris Martin, Jared Wilson, and their ilk clearly do not have their hearts in the right place.
That is exaclty what I was thinking. Every day TGC violates every point Martin makes in his article. The hypocrisy is stunning.
Here is a related article recently posted on TGC that has the same kind of hypocrisy:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/assessing-elders-digital-age/
This statement is rich in light of how TGC and their allies flood the internet with content:
“Who can help God’s people burn altars of social-media addiction and pull down pillars of excessive media consumption?”
TGC should lead by example by shutting down its website, which has become a digital high place.
That pretty much follows their entire theology, though. They are God-ordained to tell everybody else what to do, so we all just need to shut up and obey their every word
From the TGC article:
“These features, and the eventual addition of others like Facebook’s version of a retweet—the ‘Share’ button—laid the groundwork for the polarization already present in our hearts to take center stage in our public discourse and, indeed, our entire culture.”
More hypocrisy, since every TGC article has those little buttons to share on FB, Twitter, etc. “Do as I say, not as I do.”
“Perhaps we need more believers celebrating the justice and righteousness we see in our world. Tell stories of the goodness you come across in a given day.”
In a way you do this on this blog. Telling stories that show how Justice and Goodness are being pursued by individuals.
ishy,
Yup… remember, we are just pew peons to them…. The “rules” do not apply to all of the “anointed ones”…
. the logic of these “bros” would be comical, except the abuse that is discussed by places such as TWW is not a laughing matter…..
… The real irony is that my growing up as a fundagelical, I did take seriously their admonishment of reading and studying the Bible.. and one of the things I learned is the Bible is FULL of examples of “leaders” being called to “account” for their “bad behavior”…. in many cases, the people blowing the whistle calling “foul” were “below” the class of pew peon…
as Max is quick to state, we need to have our own discernment…the more we expose these clowns, the more they are going to whine..
I’m sort of interested in his comment about everything being ‘performative’ on social media. It seems like there is a certain class of people who think no one is *legitimately* upset over injustice of any kind, they are only pretending to be for good human points? It is a strange stance for a christian to take though.
Is it so hard for these men to believe that someone might *actually* care about something more than recipes?? Because that says more about them than you.
Also pretending that everything is perfect when it isn’t is also a performance. He clearly favors one type of pretending over another.
Amen! Thank you, Dee.
Nysaa,
If you know any of those bloggers in the Greek Orthodox tradition, please ask them to contact me. I would love to support them. The threats of lawsuits are bogus since they must prove the bloggers are lying.
It’s probably because he views his own life as a performance, so he projects his way of thinking onto everyone else.
“To be frank, I am getting quite tired of all the whining about how awful people are on social media. Of course there are going to be jerks and creeps trolling on the internet. Yes, they will call you bad names and say nasty things.”
Dee, The Daughter of Santa.
For fun, I decided to do a search on Twitter to see the responses. There were quite a few “This is so true. Best thing I ever read” tweets. Of course, some of them were the other popular dudebros with large Twitter followings, like Trevin Wax.
Only one person started a thread questioning the irony and logic of the article by a guy who is “social media manager” of Lifeway : dee.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Yup…. I am all about performance and getting attention! I need the attention that you all give me!
In fact, I might just curl up under a rock and die if I could get all the attention you give me!
This has got be one of stupid “generalizations” these clowns have put out yet!
Did they ever think that some of us might just care about people that have been abused, by people claiming to represt Christ?
Kinder, Kuche, Kirche like a good little Reichsmutter.
Mutual Admiration Society of the Anointed.
(Though I’d use a lot stronger word than “Admiration”…)
And as stupid as it was, I remain confident that they will continue to get even more stupid.
Does anybody know the Koine Greek for an actor performing?
He can’t. He has a Penis.
Holy Testosterone wouldn’t let him do anything that WOMANLY.
So, I guess there’s now three sure things in life…
HA!
The boy went to jupiter to get more stupider? 😉
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Thumbs up!
Ken F (aka Tweed),
It is also so typical of how “preachers” handle criticism…. attack the character of the questioner/accuser.. .. I know first hand… I was “trained” by my fundy past …. if some one questions your Young Earth Creationist position, go after their “faith”…. accuse them of being not committed to “inspired word of good”, call them a “compromiser”, call them someone that wants to “accommodate the world”, etc.. because, you can not defend yourself scientifically..
Now, in the current situation, as more and more facts come out about how the “system” protects perverts in religious power, go after the people that raise questions as being “bad Christians”….
(Sarcastic Sigh).
Girl, you just don’t realize how important those fellowship meals and church cookbooks are!
Ken F (aka Tweed),
“It’s probably because he views his own life as a performance, so he projects his way of thinking onto everyone else.”
+++++++++++++
well, that’s ‘servant leadership’ in practice.
do what every decent human being is already doing (and has been doing for time immemorial), but call it “servant leadership” so you can earn gospel points by out-servant-leading your peers and then walk around leading with your chest because you’re a winner over all the other losers.
utterly ridiculous.
Lea,
“his comment about everything being ‘performative’ on social media. It seems like there is a certain class of people who think no one is *legitimately* upset over injustice of any kind, they are only pretending to be for good human points?”
++++++++++++++++++
anyone who uses the word “performative” is name-dropping with big, silly words. i think they get extra points for those.
talk about performing and pretending…. (ironic facial expression emoji goes here)
the lack of self-awareness is…. well, it’s sort of becoming entertainment.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
“It’s probably because he views his own life as a performance, so he projects his way of thinking onto everyone else.”
+++++++++++++++++++
check this TGC-ism out:
“Pray longer than what’s standard in many churches and people will see that your primary goal is not to satisfy a customer, but to seek and exalt the Savior.”
you get double points for prayer performance.
so, if i pray 1 minute longer than Tony Merida then i get to be in first place.
yes, this is entertaining, indeed.
https://twitter.com/TGC/status/1229791440575881221
Are they quoting Matthew 6:5-6? Here’s what Jesus said, according to my Bible:
“And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.”
elastigirl,
Yet, the Bible, which they claim they follow says the Christ taught his disciples to go i to your closet and pray in “secret”…. not like the Pharisees do making big productions out it..
Opps, I forgot, these brobtothers only like to focus on the writings of Paul, and of course, their hero John Calvin..
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Thank you for your kind comment.
You forgot to add “(pbuh)” after his name.
AF,
I hadn’t thought of that.
You’re not the only one to see the parallels.
“Stupidity is like hydrogen; it’s the basic building block of the Universe.”
— attr to Frank Zappa
I could probably say more, and I may come back later and make another post or two,
but for now, I just wanted to say, regarding this line by the TGC author:
“…celebrating the diverse tastes the Lord has gifted us.”
The older I get, and the more I have drifted from Christianity in the last several years, the more I loathe and cringe at this Christian-ese.
“…diverse tastes the Lord has gifted us…”
-You can’t see me behind my keyboard, but my eyes are rolling at that.
So cringe.
Is the word “hypocrite”?
He was obviously not including TWW as a target of that article because not only do we see all the beautiful things that Dee points out, but we also get nearly real-time cricket and fitba’ updates. Case closed.
dee,
You have expertise via experience, that you share with kindness.
(PhD in Watchblogging)
Like I’ve always said Nancy, I think you’d like a Wisconsin fish fry (Perch and Walleye).
GMFS
On the subject of which, a somewhat below-par performance from Liverpool combined with an excellent one from Athletico Madrid gave the Spaniards a 1-0 win on the night which, given the lack of an away goal, will not be easy to overturn at Anfield. Our hold on the European title is worryingly tenuous.
More positively, there is indeed a nice story from the world of fitba’ this week. A wee laddie of 10 who (sadly) supports Manchester United was set a homework assignment at school: write a letter. He wrote a letter of complaint to Liverpool manager Jurgen Klopp, asking him if Liverpool could lose some games or at least let the opposition score so that Liverpool didn’t win the title.
Klopp wrote back. He basically said: sorry, I can’t really do that because it’s my job to try and make Liverpool win. But don’t worry; we’ve lost matches before and we will again, because that’s fitba’. But it’s great that you’re passionate about the sport.
You can read about it on the BBC site here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland – but apparently it’s gone viral, which means it’ll be easy to find on google.
Unfortunately, I don’t know which bloggers are being sued.
Friend,
elastigirl: check this TGC-ism out:
“Pray longer than what’s standard in many churches and people will see that your primary goal is not to satisfy a customer, but to seek and exalt the Savior.”
Others have already picked up on the glaring irony here, so I am but adding another colour. But once [generic] you are comparing your prayers to others’ prayers, and adjusting them so that people will see something, you’ve already lost the point of praying. Whether onlookers discover it or not, you’re only praying to enhance your we’re-all-about-Jesus brand.
It’s like they have to say perfectly normal things (God has created a world with lots of different foods etc) in the verbal equivalent of a limp damp handshake. I don’t think they realise, as so often I realise that most of these guys don’t know any other kind of Christian, & certainly no non-Christians, so they become unaware of how their particular Christianese sounds.
You weren’t supposed to notice that…
“Apparently, he is concerned that social media will contribute to the fall of democracy.” (Dee)
Fall of democracy? Nah, TGC is concerned that social media will contribute to the fall of New Calvinism, revealing the dark side of their movement. They are trying to stop shouts from the rooftops.
“I believe that he is expressing the frustrations that his BFFs in TGC/Acts29/SGC have been experiencing. Victims and their advocates are speaking out and being heard. And some of the brothers are in the hot seat.” (Dee)
Yep, social media has crippled these bad-boys on several fronts. They were depending on Driscoll, Mahaney, MacDonald etc. to advance the new reformation … social media got in the way of their strategy. The New Calvinist movement has had more than their share of “brothers” who turned out to be rascals. TGC didn’t call them out … watchmen on the wall in cyberspace did!
Southern Baptist life in rural America would cease to exist without them. You can mess with their theology, but if you try to take away their potluck dinners you’ve got a war on your hands!
It is common knowledge that those submitting recipes of their favorite dishes in church cookbooks leave out an important ingredient or two so they cannot be replicated. Some Southern Baptists are known more for their cooking ability than discipleship. We still refer to some of the church recipes we have collected over the years as “Helen’s Yeast Rolls”, “Max’s Pecan Pie”, etc.
New Calvinism would not exist without social media. Piper Points, Mohler Moments, Dever Drivel, etc. are not tweets of recipes, but influences designed to mobilize and energize the young, restless and reformed.
The “Gospel” Coalition = The “Calvinist” Coalition
Not gonna lie, I love all that. But lets not pretend an instagram full of recipes is the only thing anyone should be doing.
Don’t forget to bring liveried servants blowing long trumpets before you to announce your prayers.
“Piper/Mohler/Dever Tweeted It,
I Believe It,
THAT SETTLES IT!”
Why do you think they call them “twits”?
“…that Ye may be seen by men.”
Which is why they want others to stop talking. THEY drive the message, not you peons who are not the “Lawd’s Annointed”. You think happy thoughts, shallow dreck, and only become motivated and think deeply about what WE tell you to think about.
We know how to use social media best, you don’t.
Or put another way, I think I read it some where, “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” Why does that seem familiar. Revolution, new leaders, something, something, something.
The downfall of democracy won’t be caused by letting common people tweet. It was caused years ago when they let common people vote.
Nick Bulbeck,
There’s plenty more mileage in that joke, but I’ll leave that to other Wartburgers!
As HUG refers to them, New Calvinists are Gawd’s Speshul Pets.
If this is a real thing, please post the recipe without omitting a key ingredient. If you leave out the pecans, we’ll all know what you’re up to. 😉
I can see where the author is coming from. I often excuse myself from nasty threads on social media, especially when people get really nasty with each other. But, just like newspapers (am I the only person who still gets one delivered daily?), social media has its erudite publications, the ones for the average Joe, and the tabloids. What we used to put in print, and read and respond to more slowly, can now be flashed all around the world in literally seconds. That should give Christians second thought-especially those who post things that are helpful or harmful to others or downright lies.However, social media used responsibly is of great benefit, and it will not be going away any time soon. If I want recipes and nature pix, I can always go to the Cooking Channel and NatGeoWild.
Good post!!! It reminded me of a story from the Old Testament.
2 Sam 16:5 As King David approached Bahurim, a man from the same clan as Saul’s family came out from there. His name was Shimei son of Gera, and he cursed as he came out. 6 He pelted David and all the king’s officials with stones, though all the troops and the special guard were on David’s right and left. 7 As he cursed, Shimei said, “Get out, get out, you murderer, you scoundrel! 8 The Lord has repaid you for all the blood you shed in the household of Saul, in whose place you have reigned. The Lord has given the kingdom into the hands of your son Absalom. You have come to ruin because you are a murderer!”
9 Then Abishai son of Zeruiah said to the king, “Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? Let me go over and cut off his head.”
10 But the king said, “What does this have to do with you, you sons of Zeruiah? If he is cursing because the Lord said to him, ‘Curse David,’ who can ask, ‘Why do you do this?’”
11 David then said to Abishai and all his officials, “My son, my own flesh and blood, is trying to kill me. How much more, then, this Benjamite! Leave him alone; let him curse, for the Lord has told him to. 12 It may be that the Lord will look upon my misery and restore to me his covenant blessing instead of his curse today.”
13 So David and his men continued along the road while Shimei was going along the hillside opposite him, cursing as he went and throwing stones at him and showering him with dirt. 14 The king and all the people with him arrived at their destination exhausted. And there he refreshed himself.
I was thinking thinking of a different d-word…
And if you need exercise, you can watch “Believercise” videos from the 1980s, like “Heavy Cardio 2:”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blteIq66Qr8
Friend,
My brain just shorted out. I’ll file that away with other “Stuff Christians Like” (TM), such as “Testamints” and “BibleMan”.
Magistos,
I am dying from laughter! Thanks to all my orthopedic issues, none of these moves are allowed in my world (which means I don’t need to wear the outfit, either).
The author does not say stop anything. It calls for more effort to promote positive aspects of life and compete with the negative tearing down. It’s possible the author is simply calling for Christians to be more light than darkness, to stop hanging around and participating in the negative. Just because someone critiques the way social media is being used does not mean they are attacking TWW, Spiritual Sounding Board, or Thou Art the Man etc. It’s possible to make these observations without applying them to this community. It seems to me the message is very much the Biblical message, be different. TWW provides an invaluable service to the church some people appreciate that and some don’t, alright. In my observation, on topics like this the board sometimes feels reactionary when I don’t believe it needs to be.
Darn! You are on to me!
Church recipes are sort of like The Gospel Coalition bunch. They claim to be the sole keepers of truth, but leave out the Gospel (the real one). They talk a lot about “God”, but leave out Jesus. They preach theology, but leave out the Cross of Christ.
You’re kinda missing the point, though. They don’t apply these things to themselves. They start all kinds of drama on the internet and in churches. They support punishing people who don’t deserve punishment. They harass, threaten, demean, and teach other pastors to do the same.
I’m sorry, I don’t buy it. I doubt they wrote the article from good intentions. I never accept advice from people who don’t consistently practice as they preach.
Jeremy,
“It seems to me the message is very much the Biblical message, be different.”
++++++++++++++++
like praying a few minutes longer than those questionable lesser churches?
If the biblical message is “be different”, then a bit of window dressing is all that’s needed.
all it does is “look different”, while covering up hypocrisy, manipulation, unlearned critical thinking, unlearned common sense…
i have much more respect for my moslem and agnostic/atheist friends, who have very high personal standards of integrity & honesty & kindness, simply because it’s the right thing to do.
what’s the point of having to look different from that? unless christians are simply too elite to lower themselves to goodness and kindness that’s not the christian brand.
I think that TGC dude-bros are terrified of the democracy of the internet. They are terrified that they don’t hold the power on the internet.
Seven years ago, I was steeped in the Reformed theology I had grown up in. I accepted everything TGC put out as gospel truth. And yet, I stumbled onto The Wartburg Watch looking for answers when the Sovereign Grace Ministry scandal hit the fan. I didn’t understand how nobody in *my* internet world seemed to think it was a big deal, that the men whom I saw as Christian spiritual authorities seemed to want to hush it up and force-fade it into the background. I felt like an outsider at TWW, especially with the attacks on Reformed theology. But I saw that Dee and Deb and the folks commenting here really did *care* about the victims of church abuse. They gave survivors a voice when nobody else would. They believed them.
So I kept lurking on the site, reading and reading and reading. It felt illicit at times- like I was doing something unChristian, something that my pastors and teachers wouldn’t approve of. But I couldn’t stop. I couldn’t stop feeling that the victims of abuse matter to Jesus way more than the outward appearance of Christianity. That what was happening at TWW was more in line with Jesus’ teachings than TGC.
7 years later, I have abandoned Reformed theology, complementarianism, belief that the literal interpretation is the only right interpretation of the Bible, almost everything about my former faith. Like Josh Harris, I really don’t know if I qualify as a Christian any longer. Certainly I don’t by TGC standards. But I do know that TGC is terrified of people like Dee, who speak truth to power and challenge people to think for themselves, to take a good look at the man behind the curtain and not ignore the skeletons in the closet. Their control of people like me is threatened by voices like Dee’s. Things like this article show just how scared they are.
Christian watchblogs serve as watchmen on the wall, to inform and warn the Body of Christ about groups like TGC and aberrant movements like New Calvinism. There have been several bad-boys behind the curtain in the new reformation who have been exposed through social media … the skeletons are piling up.
Meredithwiggle, your testimony is encouraging to Dee and the Wartburgers who participate on TWW. You did the right thing to abandon those things which run contrary to God’s plan for His children. Jesus loves you; the Holy Spirit will guide you in the days ahead as you seek new direction for your spiritual walk.
For me the issue is their hypocrisy. TGC is notorious for doing all the negative things this author tells all of us to avoid. TGC does not practice what it preaches.
By TGC standards, I am pretty sure that Jesus does not qualify. So you might be in good company.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
I was thinking something similar….. do you think Jesus would turn away a true believer from communion the way 9 Marks churches do? we could go on and on.,
elastigirl,
No one needs to be a Christian in order to be a “good” person. However, Christians are called to be different from the world in a variety of ways one of which, and the most important is the faith in Jesus Christ alone as the Son of God and way to heaven. So, yes, in that capacity I very much must be different from my good and nice non- Christian friends. My point is that maybe even though you stand opposite TGC on many things it does not mean nothing they produce has value nor does it mean that every blog and message board is the target of their article. Far too many of us stand on the mountain yelling hypocrite when if we were honest would find a great deal of hypocrisy in our own lives. This board spends a great deal of time lamenting the lack of grace of various organizations much of the time justifiably so, and then demonstrates a similar lack of grace toward those same groups as if it’s somehow justified or acceptable because they are on an opposite side of an issue. It can get somewhat tiresome.
Will you please say more? The mainstream Christian view has been (especially since 1945) that the Old Covenant remains in effect: Jews remain the Chosen People, and do not require Jesus to remain in God’s favor.
Beyond this, many Christians do not accept a narrow reading of “No one comes to the Father except through me.” I agree that Christians are called to be different, but balk at the threat of eternal condemnation.
Friend,
What more would you like on what point? I’m not certain what you are asking about. While I’m familiar with the old covenant new covenant concepts I’m not sure I would call it mainstream but that may just be an argument over semantics. What is it about the concept of eternal condemnation that you balk at? Feel free not to answer because this next question is personal but helps in framing the conversation. I know not everyone who contributes here is a Christian, would you call yourself a Christian or not? Again, you don’t need to answer if you do not want to share that information.
Sorry, I made a typing mistake above, sentence should read, “I agree that Christians are called to be different, but I balk at the threat of eternal condemnation.”
Yes, I am a Christian. My viewpoint is my own, and other good-hearted folks on TWW have their viewpoints.
Christianity needs to offer something more than threats of going to Hell. At a minimum, in my view, Christians need to remember that we are grafted on. Jewish people are still the Chosen People. Christians have not replaced them. So… food for thought, since a lot of us grew up in churches where threats of hell were made casually and often, and not really thought through. I’d like to know more about your viewpoint too, and will check back tomorrow.
Jeremy,
“This board spends a great deal of time lamenting the lack of grace of various organizations much of the time justifiably so, and then demonstrates a similar lack of grace toward those same groups as if it’s somehow justified or acceptable because they are on an opposite side of an issue. It can get somewhat tiresome.”
++++++++++++++++
i don’t think “lack of grace” is on the radar here.
(largely because the christian use of the word renders it quite meaningless due to so many conflicting and weird definitions)
seems to me TWW’s posts and discussions focus on abuse: sexual abuse, spiritual abuse, abuse of power.
if anything, there’s been too much “grace”.
those in power have covered up these crimes (crimes against the law of what is plainly right and honest, if not the laws of the land) — covered them up with “grace” redefined as silence to protect money and power.
“grace” redefined as “keep quiet and keep sweet”, or else ‘we’ll look down on you as suspect’ (and so will God in his hot displeasure).
this smothering “grace” seems to have conditioned christian culture with a fear of and inability to handle direct plain-speaking discourse when things aren’t peachy-keen.
accusations of “slander”, “hateful”, and “lacking grace” start flying.
since the powerbrokers in christian culture have tricked people into being afraid to speak the truth and to speak plainly, leaders are not held accountable.
there’s an accountability void.
what you call “lack of grace” is simply direct plain-speaking into this accountability void. it’s so strange to me that this is shocking.
i’ve grown up in christian culture — this widespread intolerance for speaking directly (and spiritualizing it away as something sinful) is new.
the reason it is so widespread is because TGC (and entities like it) have deliberately sought greater and greater influence, to the point that they control thought of an entire subculture.
all the more reason for plain-speaking.
As for trolls, for three years I’ve been dealing with creepy trolls who stalk me and make veiled threats like “We know everything about you” because I’m friends with the person they hate on Twitter. They’ve also been known to try to track down this person in real life. So there are annoying trolls and there are trolls who make the hair rise on the back of your neck…..
You make a good point. To take that a bit further with a theological argument, if I was to use New Calvinist theology on itself, we can’t impart grace anyway. We’re not God.
Along with words like: divisive, unforgiving, unteachable, spirit of Jezebel, fomenter, prodigal, backslider,…
And “bitter”!
They have made it a doctrine instead of an experience.
One of the big problems with TGC is they produce way too much material, with much of it falling under the category of “uncanny grasp of the obvious” (one if their recent articles stresses the importance of reading the bible and focussing on Jesus, as if it some kind of new insight). But they also produce quite a lot of material claiming, both explicit and implied, that non-Calvinists are heretics (one of their recent articles claims Christians who don’t believe in penal substitution are Satanic). They have also caused quite a lot of harm by propping up and covering for abusive leaders such as Mark Driscol and CJ Mahaney (has DA Carson apologized for that yet?). So yes, some of their material is useful, but it does not compensate for their harmful material and behaviors.
Who wouldn’t balk at that? What good hearted person wants ‘eternal condemnation’ for fundamentally decent, wonderful people?
It’s easy to label someone a heretic. Shrill accusations about satanic influence are everywhere.
Of course, the people making the accusations are also implying that such folks are going to hell.
This assumption applies whether OR NOT the folks are actual heretics and satanists.
I recently attended a Protestant funeral. Afterward, one of the guests (a Protestant) said of the departed, “Oh well. Too bad he didn’t know Jesus.” She was casually implying that the man was going straight to hell. She did not even know the guy.
Such judgments are dehumanizing, arbitrary, and ever changing. They are arrogant. They are used to frighten people, especially women and children, and to keep them in line.
How loving is it to go through life believing we can tell that God is going to torment those who are not exactly like us?
Is damnation really our strongest argument for following Jesus?
Jonathan Edwards, the patron saint of New-Calvinism, is an example of such a person:
“The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell? I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss.”
[“The Eternity of Hell Torments” (Sermon), April 1739 & Discourses on Various Important Subjects, 1738]
Meredithwiggle,
Welcome.
You are not alone here.
Friend,
I agree there needs to be a better balance of the hope of Christ and the consequences of sin. I think many denominations of the church swing the pendulum too far either way. As far as the grafting in I too agree with you that is the biblical position. I did not grow up in a church making threats of hell but it did teach a right doctrine of hell based the teaching of the Bible. To run away from that and only teach love and grace is to teach an incomplete picture of God and His Word.
elastigirl,
I have not to my knowledge disagreed with any of the discussion of abuse. It is right and good to expose that. I sometimes object to some of the arguments against articles like the one prompting this discussion and the way that certain sources appear to me, to be written off simply because of who they are. As for abandoning the word grace because some have a distorted view is not a way to live. The fact that the KKK misuse various Christian images should not cause the Church to abandon those same symbols. Rather they should use them in a way that shows people that there’s another way to view and think about those symbols and we should use the word grease in such a way that shows people that there’s a right and a wrong way to use the word.
I think that’s exactly where the “everybody is evil” argument comes from. Then you can believe everyone else is evil and deserves evil things. But I’ve noticed that a lot of people who believe that, don’t actually believe it about themselves, even if they say they do. They demand respect but insist others don’t deserve it. They tell others to be quiet or submit when they themselves won’t. And the only decider of who gets what is themselves (not God).
Lea,
I do not get joy or happiness from the concept of eternal condemnation but I do not balk at it. The scripture is clear on the teaching I am not God and therefore I submit to the reality that some will in heaven and some will be eternally punished. That is what the Bible teaches and I am submitting my life to its teaching.
What is the difference between those two things?
Do you believe that Jewish people today remain God’s Chosen? Do you believe that they must convert to Christianity before they die, or suffer eternal consequences?
Friend,
Yes, I’ve already said I agree with you on this. The Bible is clear about two things connected to this line of discussion. That a remnant of Israel will be preserved and that Jesus is the only way to heaven. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. I don’t understand this line of contention. Have you been taught that Jews are somehow excluded?
Ken F (aka Tweed),
To knowledge Carson has not but I’m not sure that implicates everyone at TGC as culpable. We may disagree on that and I’m ok with that. In the same way that I do not disregard everything someone on the opposite political or even religious spectrum from has to say I don’t think it’s necessary to assume this article is inherently bad simply because TGC is the source. At face value much of the article is good and useful advice. Yet the author is being attacked as if he is somehow and enemy when I think of the same sentiments had been expressed by Dee or Todd Wilhelm etc there would have been a good amount of digital applause.
Yes and no. He does have a point that social media has become too caustic and Christians should be careful how they use social media. But he also fails condemn all that TGC does to contribute to the problem. Dee only posts a few times a week. TGC posts multiple new articles each day. There is truly no real need to flood the market like this.
Food for thought: there are at least three mutually exclusive views of hell that are well supported by the bible. The most common is eternal conscious torment. Another view is the conditionalist or annihilationist view (see the Rethinking Hell website). Another is the ultimate reconciliation or Christian universalist view (Gregory of Nyssa was a proponent of this view). I have heard very good arguments for all three, all using the Bible.
Interestingly, the ancient creeds and confessions all agree that there is a hell, but none of them clarify the nature or duration of hell.
It is not inherently bad because TGC is the source. It is bad based on its own merits.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Why? The article calls for less darkness and more light in social media. Please give give me your arguments against the article.
There is if you want to indoctrinate a generation of young, restless and reformed.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
I would agree that a biblically based argument for the first two options you have listed could be made, however I do not think Gregory makes a convincing argument that reconciliation on a universal level exists in the Bible. The Bible does not waiver on a separation at the judgement. Gregory fails on two points, one his argument that no being created by God will be left out does not reconcile with the biblical teaching that the Satan will be cast into the fired and destroyed. Second, even Gregory’s so called universalism excluded the unbaptized.
Max,
Couldn’t we make this same argument for everything in the 24 hour news cycle? Why no polemic against the constant flood of articles from Huffington Post, CNN, Fox News or dare I say daily sometimes multiple postings a day here at TWW? I’m teasing Dee I don’t think you write too much.
Yes, indeed! Be careful little ears what you hear! A believer should exercise particular attention to that coming forth from religious institutions … the devil is at work in the mumbo-jumbo coming from both the secular and ecclesiastical.
Thank you very much for clarifying. I have never been taught that Jews are excluded from heaven. (Painfully aware how presumptuous that might sound to Jewish people.) I grew up in a church that had plenty of flaws, but that was not one of them.
I raised the question because American Christians are forgetting the lessons of World War II. Theology changed as churches rejected earlier anti-Semitic teachings about who was responsible for the death of Christ; and also looked at their complicity.
If folks are interested, here is a very good article about the changes: https://www.ushmm.org/research/about-the-mandel-center/initiatives/ethics-religion-holocaust/articles-and-resources/jews-and-christians-the-unfolding-interfaith-relationship
Max,
I agree Max. Do you think the majority, I’m excluding the hardcore readers, visit TGC or a daily basis. I consider myself an average reader of various websites including TWW and I only have time for a couple of visits a week. If I were running a website like TGC I would have a a variety content everyday hoping to hit the multiple audiences that visit any given day. Maybe it indoctrination but that is not a bad thing in and of itself. My guess is people who share their view of scripture would call it encouragement. Indoctrination is all around us everyday it’s just that we agree with some and disagree with others.
Friend,
I would stand alongside Friend in encouraging you to visit the Holocaust
Memorial Museum website but more than that if you find yourself in Washington D.C. you should walk over and spend the 2-3 hours it takes to work through it.
Full disclosure, I’m not going to look that up. 😉 And I’m not making a lot of assumptions about your own beliefs… this is more general.
Some Christian traditions (Quakers for one) do not have baptism. So no Quakers in heaven.
Others, of course, have believers’ baptism. So no young children in heaven.
I was baptized as an infant, and some folks have said I need to be rebaptized to get into heaven. So no Catholics, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, et al., in heaven.
Just looking at the above, Heaven will be empty or sparsely populated.
I would rather appreciate the beauty of our many Christian traditions: the reasons why we hold dear a belief and custom.
A mountain can be beautiful; we don’t have to hate the valley.
Friend,
First, I don’t think baptism is necessary for salvation. That was Gregory’s point not mine. Second, the whole counsel of scripture has only beauty for the believer but scripture itself testifies to the fact that it is horrible for the unbeliever. Jesus himself said of his own parables that they were for the instruction of some but the condemnation of others. We cannot ignore the horrible simply because it’s horrible we should see all of it. Lastly, I believe that reformed, Arminian,Protestants, and Catholics, etc. etc. will be in heaven and of course the distinctions will be meaningless at that point but also believe because Jesus said so himself that many who prophesied in his name will be sent away because he never knew them.
Friend,
Case in point, I’m pretty sure the repentant faithful thief on the cross was not baptized.
Jeremy,
“I sometimes object to some of the arguments against articles like the one prompting this discussion and the way that certain sources appear to me, to be written off simply because of who they are.
As for abandoning the word grace because some have a distorted view is not a way to live. …we should use the word grease in such a way that shows people that there’s a right and a wrong way to use the word.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++
thank you for the interaction, jeremy. working backwards through your reply:
human beings understand “grace” and “graciousness” (and I’m just going with the dictionary definition, here, for some stability). it’s quite an inflated sense of self-importance to think they need christians to explain and demonstrate it to them. as if all ‘non-christians’ are inept goblins.
“grace”, “graciousness” is one of those things that looks different depending on where you are.
What’s gracious in Brooklyn would be rude and abrasive in Memphis, what’s gracious in London would be passive in San Francisco.
Brings to mind the line in “Jerry Maguire”, when the Cuba Gooding character says to the Tom cruise character,
“See, man, that’s the difference. between us. You think we’re fighting, I think we’re finally talking!”
I reckon those who write, comment, & read on TWW value and affirm grace & graciousness as much as anyone.
TGC articles are discussed because of their worth in sanctimonious and silly nonsense that is informing the totalitarian-&-growing shape of christian culture.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
“Along with words like: divisive, unforgiving, unteachable, spirit of Jezebel, fomenter, prodigal, backslider,…”
+++++++++++++++
ah, yes. “sinfully fomenting.”
bad. very bad.
Dan from Georgia,
Thank you Dan!
This is false. The Bible is anything but clear when it comes to the doctrine of hell. Most of the teaching of the modern evangelical church about hell is based off of medieval Catholic tradition and writings, not actual scripture. Even the Nicene Creed, accepted by most churches as a statement of what Christians believe, makes no mention of hell except in the context that “Jesus descended into hell”– the meaning of which is vague and much debated.
elastigirl,
I thought for sure someone would give me some grief for the “grease” autocorrect. Shouldn’t we aspire for a Christian grace that is uniform in appearance? If that were so then the church could be known by its fruit not just its words. I acknowledge that not everyone here is a Christian but those that are should, I think share a common view of grace. Jesus’ example was to hold everyone Pharisee and Disciple, Jew and Gentile to the same standard it did not vary depending on culture or geography. Shouldn’t the church function the same way? Even toward those who have gravely erred? Jesus in the garden did not look at the temple guard whose ear was cut off and say you’re in grave error and you got what’s coming to you, no, he repaired the man’s ear and admonished Peter not Malchus.
Meredithwiggle
Revelation 21:8 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
2 Thessalonians 1:9 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
Mark 9:43 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
I don’t see the ambiguity here. No need to reference medieval theologians.
TGC and its writers are definitely influencers. Church history will record what kind of influence they had on Generations X, Y and Z and the impact of their “encouragement” on the American church. The SBC is certainly dealing with that now, as the new reformers Calvinize a non-Calvinist denomination – a theological shift which millions of SBC members did not ask for. TGC, T4G, and Acts 29 encouraged them to do so … they have been masters of social media to mobilize and energize the New Calvinist movement. Good or bad? Depends on your theological flavor I suppose. But stealth and deception are not fruit of the Holy Spirit, so there will be a payday someday for those who behaved this way – thinking it was good for the movement.
Meredithwiggle,
“Like Josh Harris, I really don’t know if I qualify as a Christian any longer.”
++++++++++++++
it’s gotten so darn narrow that no one does.
well, there might be 3 or 4.
(growing up christian it simply was not like this. quite frankly, it’s morphed into a cult.)
(alright, perhaps just cultic, then.)
Jeremy,
“…Christian(s)…should, I think share a common view of grace. …Even toward those who have gravely erred? Jesus in the garden did not look at the temple guard whose ear was cut off and say you’re in grave error and you got what’s coming to you, no, he repaired the man’s ear and admonished Peter not Malchus.'”
+++++++++++++++++
i seem to recall Jesus fashioning a whip and wielding it, turning over tables, getting really mad and making a ruckus.
jeremy, i’m quite sure not even Jesus would fit into the cookie cutter mold of “grace”, should we ever devolve to the point that it is codified (by some powerbroker).
Perhaps you should do more reading outside of what you personally believe about hell. There many very good and compelling arguments for Christian Universalism from modern writers such as Robin Parry or Brad Jersak. This is not to say that they are correct. Rather, it is to say that there are more viable options than what you have been taught. I particularly like this statement by Baxter Kruger:
http://baxterkruger.blogspot.com/2012/09/universalism_10.html?m=1
For someone who so strongly emphasizes the importance of dealing graciously with the TGC crowd, maybe you could be more gracious toward people who have different views on hell?
elastigirl,
Yes he did fashion a whip and he also compared Peter to Satan. Again he was equally critical and gracious to those inside and outside his closest circle. My point is if we are going to call ourselves Christians grace cannot look different for those inside and outside our tribe.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
That’s an insulting broad brush assumption.
Jesus’ parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25 *clearly* teaches that the people who go to hell are the ones who have not been charitable in this life– people who have not fed the hungry, clothed the naked, welcomed the stranger, cared for the sick, visited those in prison. While people who have done those things are welcomed into heaven– no mention of a “profession of faith” or “right belief” made.
Jesus’ parable of Lazarus and the rich man *clearly* teaches that those who suffer unjustly in this life will go to heaven, while those who ignored the sufferings of others will go to hell.
Numerous Old Testament writings *clearly* teach that all those who die, good or bad, simply go to Sheol or Hades, which is the underworld, the abode of the dead, a parallel of ancient Greek and Roman ideas of the afterlife as a grey, hazy kind of place, with no particular judgment. Thus “Abraham died and was gathered to his people.”
Jesus says, “It is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into Gehenna into the unquenchable fire.” Gehenna was a valley outside of Jerusalem where some of the Old Testament kings of Judah had burned their children alive in sacrifices to pagan gods. There is no *clear* meaning here.
I am so tired of people saying that the Bible “clearly” teaches _____ (fill in the blank.) Christians have literally been fighting about every single point of doctrine (and non-doctrine) for two thousand years, often to the point of killing each other. If the Bible were so darn clear, wouldn’t you think there’d be some kind of agreement? As Ken points out, you can make an argument *from the Bible* for multiple points of view concerning hell. There is no single *clear* meaning.
You should look this up in the
Greek. The eternal destruction “from” (not “away from”) the Lord is in exactly the same form as this sentence in the befinning of the same chapter: “Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” In both cases the grace and thhe destruction are from the Lord. How could this be? The Eastern Orthodox view of hell is something to consider because it is very different from the western view:
https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/morningoffering/2017/08/heaven-and-hell/
Ken F (aka Tweed),
I disagree with you therefore I must be narrow minded and not well read? How very enlightened of you.
In the words of an old hymn:
“By and by, when the morning comes,
When the saints of God are gathered home,
We’ll tell the story how we’ve overcome,
For we’ll understand it better by and by”
Jeremy,
“Yes he did fashion a whip and he also compared Peter to Satan. Again he was equally critical and gracious to those inside and outside his closest circle. ”
++++++++++++++
by jove, we agree! there’s a time for grace/graciousness and there’s a time for being critical.
———-
“My point is if we are going to call ourselves Christians grace cannot look different for those inside and outside our tribe.”
+++++++++++++++
well, let’s just call it fairness, then. treating people equally.
“grace” itself does look different depending on location.
i promise you i will never measure up to memphis’ version of grace.
I never accused you of that. Rather, I suspect that you are uninformed about different views on hell. Being uninformed is not the same thing as being narrow minded or not well read. I am uninformed on MANY topics because there is only so much time available. One of the reasons I like TWW is all the new sources of info I’ve been exposed to over the last several years. TWW is helping me to become better informed on quite a few topics. I hope that I never get to the point where I start believing that I cannot learn from others.
Jeremy,
“I disagree with you therefore I must be narrow minded”
+++++++++++++
to insist there is only one possible interpretation and it’s mine is to be narrow-minded.
given the range of interpretations under the christian umbrella, isn’t it reasonable to hold things a bit loosely and say (even to oneself) “i lean in this direction”?
(as i see it, the degree to which one is dogmatic on any topic [especially one as enormous as “God”] is a measure of their error)
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Thank you for posting that worthwhile read. My own view is that a loving God would not consign anyone to eternal torment, but that God would also not force anyone into heaven against their will. If there is a hell, I think it’s there for those who have some reason to want it. Who might that be? Merciless people who will not make any room in their minds for others or for God. This is not too different from the viewpoint in the piece you linked… except the writer of the piece has actually studied theology (unlike me). 😉
Wonderful.
About the same time I started investigating why New-Calvinism had such a devastating effect on my two sons I stumbled across Eastern Orthodox theology. It is very impressive and in many ways different from Western theology (Roman Catholic and Protestant theology appear much more similar to each other than either is with EO theology). I was very tempted to become EO myself, but discovered they are also riddled with dysfunction just like every other branch of Christianity. “The grass is greener on the other side of the fence because they use more manure.” Still, I continue to seek their perspective on issues because it helps me to get out of my old rut.
Thought: Could the post by TGC, on an individual basis, be or sound applicable? But, as a trend, they are in an “act counteract” cycle, pushing their theology. There is no “this is our message”, then ignoring critics.
Yeah, i think many of our views of hell are not really well supported in scripture (some are adapted from other traditions entirely). It’s definitely not ‘clear’ and there are many different theories.
Sorry. I couldn’t resist the temptation to take your text out of context. 🙂
Isn’t there a truism about people who know the most being the most careful about the things they don’t actually know, and the limits of their knowledge, and so on and so forth? The less you know about a topic, often the more sure you are of your opinions. There is a difference in the way experts talk about a topic.
Here is another quote by Abbot Tryphon that I find helpful:
It is refreshing to find this kind of flexibility on at least some issues. I know another person who is EO who said it is impossible to have a heretical view of hell because no ecumenical councils addressed the topic. I think this is one of the benefits of the Nicene Creed – it defines the minimum set of beliefs but leads a lot open to opinion. New-Calvinism, by contrast, idolizes doctrinal precision and attempts to tightly codify everything. There is not much room to have a different opinion on most topics.
No single drop of rain feels responsible for the flood.
I think I already covered this well in my comments above. It’s not so much about the recommendations but the fact that TGC regularly violates all of them. I don’t think the recommendations are all that good to begin with, but TGC is the last group who should now all of a sudden be making those recommendations. If they truly believed this stuff they would immediately shut down their website.
I agree; one of the greatest statements of the Nicene Creed is hiding in plain sight; namely, how short it is. (The Apostles’ is even shorter, of course.)
Basically, if TGC makes one more post doing exactly what they say not to do, then there’s no reason to believe the post was written as a call to everyone, but as a call to those criticizing them.
It’s akin to Robert Morris chastising his congregation not to “gossip” on the internet, warning them that watchblogs are Satanic. He didn’t want them to read negative stuff about him.
Then they have already failed. In this particular article the author condemns the “share” feature on social media, especially sharing negativity, but then highlights this negative sentence and puts the Twitter and FB share buttons by the quote to make it easy to share:
If he practiced what he preached he would not have included the share buttons. After that article was published, TGC continued to do the same with its most recent posts. All of their articles include quotes with share buttons, and most of their authors include directions on how to follow them on various social network platforms. Pure hypocrisy.
“… social-media … grab our popcorn, and watch the madness …” (Chris Martin)
Thanks to social media, believers have been able to do exactly that! The madness coming forth from TGC, T4G, Acts 29 elite and the band of New Calvinist rebels they encourage has been alarming. The young, restless and reformed are wreaking havoc on the American church trying to Calvinize everything they touch, using stealth and deception to accomplish their mission. It’s been agonizing to watch and certainly not to be enjoyed with a bowl of popcorn.
Oh, I totally agree. There’s blatant hypocrisy in it. I think the author being a social media manager alone is also blatant hypocrisy. If it had come from someone who rarely used social media and wasn’t heavily involved in TGC or Lifeway, it might be a little more believable as a call to everyone instead of a call to New Calvinist critics.
And TGC and their main leaders will continue their attacks on others while claiming everyone else should be quiet. And those who say now that it should apply to everyone won’t be able to ever again. But they still will, because that’s what they are brainwashed to do.
Everyone who has a different opinion/view/interpretation or simply disagrees with them on anything must be silenced. Quench not the Spirit ……… unless it disagrees with TGC!
Lea,
“Isn’t there a truism about people who know the most being the most careful about the things they don’t actually know, and the limits of their knowledge, and so on and so forth?”
+++++++++++
why, yes.
my college student son demonstrates this by way of contrast — no one quite like a college student and recent graduate for having ALL the answers to EVERYTHING.
(just like i did)
a rude awakening is coming, when things don’t come together & work out like they said they would.
and how awkward it is when, even then, a know-it-all still thinks they know it all.
(sigh…i spend christmas and thanksgiving with a few people like this)
I hold to The Apostle’s Creed as a set of non-negotiable parameters.
It affords me a wide latitude of freedom of conscience.
TGC remains a reliable source for this. Here is what they published today:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevin-wax/social-media-and-the-loss-of-serendipitous-learning/
After so many years of keeping their followers in a bubble, they now post this? Could it be a sign they are becoming aware of how much they have been a part of the problem? I think he has good questions at the end of the article:
I hope they take these questions to heart.
= the New Calvinist tribe
Max,
It’s actually not a bad article. Except I don’t think TGC will recognize how badly they have been contributing to the problem. If they do recognize it, they will drastically cut down on the amount of articles they publish, they will select from a much wider base of authors (instead of only Calvinists), and they will encourage people to challenge their preconceived ideas by reading from sources that contradict the party line. I am not holding my breath.
Aberrant threads of Christianity never see themselves for who they really are. TGC certainly has a passion for the new reformation, but it is a misplaced passion.
They can only see themselves as the One True Perfect Church(TM) and all others as Heretics and Apostates and Worldly Flesh Babies. Total Unsleeping Narcissism on a macro scale.
“Everybody’s out-of-step except My Little Johnny.”
There’s a fascinating film that focuses on this general topic, albeit from a marketing perspective: *The Naked Brand.* You can watch it for free on YouTube. It’s a few years old and hence a bit dated, but it’s still quite illuminating.
Basically, it argues that, in the Internet age, the customer is in control, so corporations and ad agencies can no longer get away with the ranygazoo they used to pull.
I think the same thing applies to religious groups. The Internet has indeed transformed everything…and given a voice to “the little guy” (and gal).
Well worth a watch.
It’s like they haven’t even read that bible verse that talks about how every evil deed will be uncovered, and light will be shone in dark places. Do they think that will be pleasant and nice?
YES.
Because all they can see is God damning everyone ELSE to Hell while patting them on their Righteous head.
I was about to think that Greek Orthodox leadership is allowed to marry, unlike Catholic priests, but then I realized that of course Full Gospel and SBC and Calvinist leadership are also allowed to marry, and still those people can be full of perversion, so I told my mind to shut up and listen!
I remember some commenter on one of these blogs (IMonk, here, SSB) claiming he had the Spiritual Gift of seeing who was going where (especially at funerals). I replied that such an extraordinary claim required some pretty strong evidence.
Not “loving”, My Dear Wormwood.
SATISFACTION. In an “I’m Saved! You’re NOT! HAW! HAW! HAW!” manner, which is what’s really important.
Is damnation really our strongest argument for following Jesus?
To a lot of Christians, YES.
Never mind this leads to an “avoid punishment at all costs” mentality.
“BETTER THEM THAN MEEEE!”
“When somebody piously scolds you with ‘What Would Jesus Do?’,
remind them that flipping out and turning over tables is always an option.”