Part 2: Tiffany Thigpen Responds to Sharayah Colter: Jerry Vines Told Tiffany to Stay Quiet About Darrell Gilyard


Tiffany. Picture taken at the age she was assaulted by Gilyard.

“Standing behind predators makes prey of us all.” ― DaShanne Stokes


If you do not know the history of Tiffany Thigpen and Sharayah Colter, please read: Part 1: Tiffany Thigpen, a Victim of Darell Gilyard’s Abuse and Paige Patterson’s Ignorance, Counters Sharayah Colter’s Post


Today I suddenly came to the conclusion that Tiffany’s story provides a mirror into the plethora of issues within the SBC which lead to problems in effectively dealing with abuse on many levels. She has carefully documented her journey for many years and we have decided to try to get it all down in writing. It will probably take us a few months.

In the meantime, here is Tiffany’s response to Sharayah Colter. I sent the following questions to Tiffany and she answered me. (Note: DG stands for Darrell Gilyard.)

Why do you think Sharayah cherry picked the things she quoted by you?
What is her history?


Sharaya Colter and her husband Scott were long time employees under Paige Patterson. At one time Scott was Chief of Staff and she was Paige’s assistant. They were all fired last year as a result of Paige’s history of misconduct at the Seminary. In my opinion, being that they were all fired together says a great deal about their loyalties to each other and the need to get them to leave the seminary together.

I’ve never met her so I can only assume why she chose to suddenly make this post and include me in it. It appears that  she is wanting to change the narrative of what actually has happened over these last 3 decades, but it won’t work. This is not the first attempt by her and many other of Paige’s loyal followers to divert truth and I am sure it won’t be the last.

I have been told by multiple sources that Patterson is mounting a comeback. Given that I believe that he is payrolling her new venture. She appears to be his personal spin doctor. I’ve also been assured that many people  do not listen to what she says because many  have noticed her actions and attacks, especially when it comes to Patterson even though she quotes plenty of scripture while doing it. She is accused of leaking personal documents of another survivor, Megan Lively. Alleged Rape Victim Says She Now Forgives Paige Patterson, Claims Letter Shared Online Was ‘Edited’

I must also question her moral and ethical values when it comes to my story. It’s apparent that she took the time to read my old blog. Seemingly, she  spent much time there cherry picking quotes while ignoring others which gives the impression that she was attempting to spin my story to benefit Patterson. There is  quite a bit of damning information on my blog which appears was left out y Sharayah.

I emphatically believe that Patterson was in no way railroaded nor falsely accused. He was re-fired after they learned he had lied. He wasn’t fired while away and unable to defend himself. He knew how to use a phone. He was caught.

In Sharayah”s post, she left off these 2 parts of those same quotes:

I am not defending them fully, but I have had a heart check and as I pray for the purifying of my heart and the correct motives, I must speak this truth out loud especially with so many of you reading and responding.

To crucify these two men over the sins and problems of DG would serve no purpose. To challengethese men to stand up now and humbly admit mistakes and ask for forgiveness is, I believe, totallyappropriate, especially as they are leaders and called to a high standard. And what I would like to see is for them to now step up and help put an end to this problem within the church.

They cannot stop sin, but we need a system where sexual predators go on the books (especially after more than one allegation) some kind of record accessible by all churches to check before hiring pastors or other staff. It is not enough to do criminal background checks because many times victimsdo no more than confront the church, so there is no public record.

We need a system available tochurches nationwide that prevents this. I know several people have asked for this for years (primarily Iknow Christa Brown has made this her mission) isn’t it time now to make this happen. Such a simplething really. Who better than two prominent voices like Paige Patterson and Dr. Vines? I am told thereis a record within the SBC but it is private and only used by them. That does not help the churches! We cannot stop all of the predators, but what if it were a substantial number? DG would have never made it to Victory or Shiloh or FBC for that matter if this had been in place tears ago. Think of all of the victims who would have been saved – at least 50. That is a shame.

That is the REAL issue here. Let’s stop thisabuse. Let God hold them accountable for their sins, but let’s not partake in it by turning our heads. And let’s not further the sin by tearing each other apart. I am preaching at myself here to. Christ loved the sinner but hated the sin. Let’s focus on the sin and put the devil on the defense He wants this sin todestroy God’s house and the families within. Let’s make a strong circle in the name of Jesus and make the devil flee. He can only have the power over us that we allow, “Resist the devil and he will flee fromyou.” DG was an impostor among us, he was falsely shepherding for his own gain. We need real men of God shepherding. Let’s all allow God to make some good out of this, shall we?  Who is with me on this?  I think it is time for God to be glorified by us all doing the right thing. Thank you for your time as I rambled on, I cannot believe the time – I have chosen every word carefully and had to wait until the house was quiet to think clearly.”

I believe there are several reasons for Sharayah’s deliberate choice of certain of me quotes from my old blog.

She appeared to twist my words to make it appear that “even she didn’t hold them accountable” and at the same time craftily  says “or maybe not” meaning that now I’ve changed my mind and maybe didn’t mean it at all.

She actually proved my point for me.  I was acting Biblically, based on my own heart convictions, wanting all of the facts first, wanting to focus on the goal (the abuser) and not be a party to a whole bunch of gossip and vitriol. I prayed I would walk the higher road and that Christ could be glorified. I constantly had to keep my emotions, my wounds, my humanness, my motives, in check. This was one of those moments. Here in our city at that time, the news media and politics wanted to find fault in FBC Jax, especially a scandal, and I wasn’t out to hurt the people of the church. I only wanted to hold the leaders accountable. I thank her for pointing out that my statement towards them showed grace. This means I succeeded at at least that point in that post.

Paige Patterson and Jerry Vines and intimidation

For the record, I showed these two men an incredible amount of grace. They had let me down greatly and I paid a high price for all that I was left with emotionally. My self esteem and self worth were depleted for many years because no one stood up for me after being victimized. I did not then  understand the depths of destruction they poured out on anyone who spoke against Gilyard. I did not yet have the “benefit” at that time of what was to come, such as the phone calls to my mother and me,  trying to “shut me up”… Patterson’s own words.

Nor had I experienced at that time the intimidation and name calling that were yet to come from Patterson. He had not yet pulled out his “break her down” tactics – but they would come. I did not know the lengths Jerry Vines would go to in order to change the narrative and discredit me. Finally, I also truly, truly hoped that these two men would do what was right. I offered them both the chance to be heard on my blog on the subject matter of Gilyard. I asked them to step up in regards to the requested database since they had the influence and power to push for this.

What many do not realize is that I was going against two of the biggest figures in the SBC. I called them complicit in covering up a predatory abuser. I didn’t want to believe they were capable of such, actions  until I knew more and couldn’t excuse it. I grew up with these men personally being figureheads in my life. They were godlike in their influence until I realized they were undeserving of this admiration, a costly realization. I wish I could express how much I needed and wanted for them to make this right – even if only for others. I was willing to put my personal pain behind if they would do what was right for others and to stop lying.

My perspective on the real story about what Patterson/Vines believed about Gilyard. It was just an affair with a 19 year old high school senior as well as 25 other women.

Paige Patterson did not force Darrell to resign and “never preach again” in 1991. He contradicts himself so many times. Patterson spoke in the pulpit at Gilyard’s church in Dallas in 1991, just weeks after Gilyard attacked me and would have raped me had I not been able to fight off my attacker. He wasn’t broken over the real crimes of Gilyard. In fact, he only mentioned “affairs” not the rapes and that he shamed each and every one of the victims, some dropped out of seminary due to the shame and lack of help. Paige was angry, not at Gilyard, he was merely sad about that. Instead he was mad at us, the victims. In an angry finger pointing tirade, he claimed Gilyard “appeared to be guilty”, sound familiar? He then said he was going to work to restore him to ministry, even giving a timeline. He spoke about how he and Dr. Vines had been comforting him and how much they loved him. They said he was going to take a break for some help. He never one time said “Darrell is no longer qualified for ministry and I have told him this.”

When one lies and manipulates, it’s really hard to keep up with the truth. I guess Paige nor Jerry ever thought that the whole world would someday see him on video speaking on that day. When he he told his version he probably did not anticipate that it wouldn’t be so boldly contradicted. Facts matter. And what Paige and Jerry told me happened that day and the day prior were completely different than what I have now seen on video – and that hit me so very hard when I first saw it, I could barely hear it and watch it, I was physically ill. I was manipulated and deceived intentionally, to gain my silence.

I was the victim that made them face the music and make a statement to that church – it wasn’t Patterson!! It wasn’t Vines choice!! It was because I, a high school Senior, had just been attacked by the man they had been promoting for years – a man who had been accused of hurting so many others. Patterson placed him at the next church, and the next, and the next and on and on. Yet he and Vines claim they “couldn’t find those to be credible.” How many does it take? Finally, @RebeccaSherman, then at the Dallas Morning News, caught wind and reported the REAL background story: The downfall of a pastor: Allegations of sexual misdeeds detailed

A post was written in 2014 in Baptist News, in which I was quoted on my thoughts about Vines and Patterson,
“Croft said Gilyard never should have been given the role of a pastor in the first place. Paige Patterson and Jerry Vines — they were the two advising, leading, guiding, promoting and introducing the young up-and-coming dynamo Darrell Gilyard,” she said. “They were the ones that introduced and promoted him to Jerry Falwell and to all of the ‘Big Dogs’ of the Southern Baptist Convention. They were the Watch Keepers, and they failed miserably.”

Explain the Paige Patterson, Jerry Vines, Mac Brunson connection: The lies that were told about you and the coverup of 40 allegations.

Jerry Vines was my Pastor growing up at FBC Jax, FL, I attended church there from the age of 2 until around 19. I looked up to Dr. Vines and he was a hero of the faith to me and I loved his family and him. Paige Patterson was a regular speaker at our church and known to be a great friend of Vines. Darrell Gilyard was “discovered” by Vines at our church and Dr. Vines asked Patterson to help Darrell and give him a scholarship to Seminary.

Dr. Vines and Patterson kept close eyes on Gilyard and promoted him throughout the convention and to “important” churches. They both have said he was like a son to them. Patterson stated publicly that Vines was even closer to Gilyard than he was. Both men were molding and teaching Darrell as well as introducing him to the “who’s who” of Preachers and leaders and it worked. Darrell became more and more sought after.

Unfortunately, Gilyard also had a predatory eye for females and it began back at our church (FBC Jax.) while he was in the Singles department and prior to seminary. It was brought to the attention of Jerry Vines by a staff member, Kenny St. John, who was then the Singles Pastor and his concerns were ignored. Then, during his time at seminary, fellow students began to complain about Gilyard’s unwanted advances, attacks and even rape. Paige Patterson spoke to these victims and shamed them, while continuing to support Gilyard fully. Vines and Patterson pressed on with their promotions of Gilyard though both had first hand knowledge of his predation.

After 4 different churches within an equal number of years fired Darrell due to sexual predation of their females, Patterson still continued to cover for and also promote Gilyard heavily and now added shaming and blaming of the pastors who had fired him, along with the victims. Patterson claimed it was all racially motivated and even jealousy of Gilyards popularity, never telling others of the number of reports and complaints which grew to about 42 before he moved back to Jacksonville, Florida where there were even more and also led to his arrest for molestation and indecency with 2 minors in 2007, and he was found guilty in 2009.

Jerry Vines and Paige Patterson could not seriously think that well over 40 allegations and complaints against Gilyard from so many different churches could have all been a racially motivated conspiracy or jealousy. There is equally no way that they could hear from that many victims and assume they were all responsible instead of Gilyard. They chose to look away and also shame the victims and promote and revere Gilyard, not a mistake but a choice.

After Darrell attacked me during my Senior Year of high school, I wanted to hold him accountable so I went to  Dr. Vines, to report what he had done to me because I assumed that he would want to know and would do something about it. After all, it was Dr. Vines who wanted Darrell Gilyard to come and travel with our youth group to be the evangelist for our singing revival tours, he needed to know that he was a predator so he wasn’t used any longer. Also, Jerry Vines was the President of the SBC that year and had the means and power to do something.

But he didn’t, he never reported the crime committed against me to the authorities or anyone for that matter. He asked whom I had already told (he and my Mom and Dad, and my friend the Music Minister of Darrell’s church) and he said good, it is probably best that others don’t know and then words I’ll never forget, “it would be embarrassing for you if others knew” and as we left his office, “you know, given a little time these things tend to just blow over.” No outrage, no sorrow for me, no help offered, secrecy, shame and silence. Now, all of these years later, I know due to the video evidence, that he went to Texas and he and Patterson met with Gilyard and spoke for him on the stage at his church about the need for his restoration and again blamed victims (as seen on video).

Patterson admonished the church to forgive him and support him, he lied about what he was accused of (more than 42 victims at least at this point) calls them affairs and says the women were guilty. Never mentioning the teenaged high school girl who had just come forward triggering this pulpit stand, the girl who was at home trying to figure out how to pick up the pieces – me. I was definitely not “having an affair” and I had to fight him off in a sexual assault, where was my guilt in this? They covered this part up as well and didn’t tell the congregation nor did Vines send notice to the parents of our youth group to be sure there weren’t other victims. Where was their care for me while they were there “comforting him as he wept” at his home? I was devastated all over again when I watched the vidoes that were released by the Houston Chronicle, they were so hard to watch. Vines knew because I told him and he told Patterson. And yet they crafted a story for the audience that night in front of Gilyards church and they lifted him up once again. Some choose to see what they want to see, the evidence is all around.

Sadly, in this video, you will wee very little attention given to the pain of Gilyard’s victims.

Tea Time: Victory Baptist Church in Dallas, TX — July 1991 from LSLLC on Vimeo.

From The Abuse for Faith, Houston Chronicle, Robert Downen

Patterson responded forcefully, writing in 2008 that he “forced Gilyard to resign his church” and “called pastors all over the USA and since that day (Gilyard) has never preached for any Southern Baptist organization.”

In fact, Gilyard preached after his Texas ouster at various churches, including Jacksonville’s First Baptist Church, which was led by former SBC President Jerry Vines. It was there that Tiffany Thigpen said she met Gilyard, who she said later “viciously” attacked her.

Thigpen, who was 18 at the time, said that Vines tried to shame her into silence after she disclosed the abuse to him. “How embarrassing this will be for you,” she recalled Vines telling her. As far as Thigpen knows, police were never notified.

Gilyard was convicted in 2009 of lewd and lascivious molestation of two other teenage girls, both under 16, while pastoring a Florida church. He found work at an SBC church after his three-year prison sentence, prompting the local Southern Baptist association to end its affiliation.

….Thigpen said of Vines in a recent interview: “You left this little sheep to get hurt and then you protected yourself. And I hope when you lay your head on your pillow you think of every girl (Gilyard) hurt and life he ruined. And I hope you can’t sleep.”

Patterson and Vines did not respond to requests for comment. Heath Lambert, now senior pastor at First Baptist in Jacksonville, said in a statement that “we decry any act of violence or abuse.”

Gilyard was finally confronted  in Exclusive videos show confrontation of Baptist pastor accused of sexual misconduct: Houston Chronicle.

Vines makes a racially based comment to Tiffany.

Just after Darrell’s attack/sexual assault on me on May 15th, my Mom and I met with Jerry Vines at his office and I told him what happened, a horrific experience for me to tell. Vines did not seem shocked at all, looking back my Mom and I have discussed this, he knew what the problem was already. He told us to “let him handle it” and also asked whom I had told (no one) and he said “it would be embarrassing for me if anyone knew” (understand that the purity culture was huge back then and also this was still a racial issue and with Darrell being African American and me being white virgin…I understood his meaning as to what my reputation or eligibility would look like within SBC culture).

Why did Vines invites known predator to speak the Pastor’s Conference? Vines is a much responsible as Patterson but he is still an acceptable pastor amongst the SBC leaders?

Now realize that even with ALL of this knowledge and knowing Darrell had JUST (2 weeks prior) assaulted me, WHY did Vines and Patterson invite Darrell to speak at the Pastors Conference in Atlanta on June 3, 1991? https://repository.sbts.edu/handle/10392/5006

Why would my Pastor, Vines the President of the SBC at that time, invite a KNOWN sexual predator who had just 2 weeks prior attempted to rape a teen, to speak to the audience of the SBC? It is a question that haunts and harms me emotionally. I was worth NOTHING to these men, what they wanted to present and their “son” and their “Conservative Resurgence” was far more valuable than my well being and the well being of far more than 35 other victims of Gilyard. Yet Sharayah Colter says my timelines don’t match and my story doesn’t ring true. I say that the story and evidence and timelines speak for themselves. Patterson and Vines just hoped it “would all blow over” and no one would do the math. I have lived with the aftermath my whole life while Paige and Jerry proclaim they “didn’t find us credible” and could “not find demonstrable evidence” and that in the end “they were responsible for his resignation” that wasn’t really a resignation because you see in the video that Patterson and Vines were still restoring him and counseling him. What he did not say in the video was that he should be disqualified and never preach again because there were many, many victims and that now he had victimized a teen.

Darrell continued to preach at the newly formed church until he moved back to Jacksonville and took the Pastorate at Shiloh Metropolitan Baptist which is now the church of HB Charles who took over after Darrell was arrested in 2006 over abuse of 2 teens.

With that being said, the 2006 arrest, please note that Dr. Vines was still friends with Gilyard and was at times speaking at his church. Dr. Vines, with all of this knowledge of sins and crimes says he “had no option but to forgive him after he admitted his moral failings to him in 2003” (note the year) and that “five years later he saw the ‘FIRST’ signs that he had been duped.” How many ‘signs’ do you need Dr. Vines? Was the distraught and traumatized teenager whom had trusted you her whole life not enough? Were the 35 before me not enough? How about the over 200 that came after me during the ‘5 years later’ while you were still preaching at his church, guest speaker at his Valentines Banquet and even your manager/son Jon Vines befriended Darrell and Darrell performed at your sons wedding ceremony during these ‘5 years’ post the 2 decades of signs/reports/admissions/firings/scandals/sexual abuse.

Why is Patterson the only focus? Both Patterson and Vines worked hand in hand?

There is much more to Tiffany’s story and I plan to post again in the new future. For example, Jerry Vines misrepresents what happened to Tiffany in his biography. I plan to address this on TWW and with the publisher.  In fact I may need you help on that one.

Comments

Part 2: Tiffany Thigpen Responds to Sharayah Colter: Jerry Vines Told Tiffany to Stay Quiet About Darrell Gilyard — 104 Comments

  1. It will be wonderful when we no longer have to make posts like this one. Perhaps someday churches and ministers will properly handle all cases of abuse….

  2. “I have been told by multiple sources that Patterson is mounting a comeback.”
    +++++++++++++++

    this new “Conservative Baptist Network”, perhaps?
    .
    .
    looks like no slow newsdays going forward.

    no TURKEYS ON THE 1st BAPTIST CHURCH ROOF: “I ain’t never seen nuthin’ like it!”

    yeah, no headlines like that.

  3. When I read stories like this, I can now really get a feel for why Jesus was so brash, harsh and completely condemning to the Pharisees. They acted exactly like this. Jesus called them the nastiest name that anyone could come up with as priests avoided touching dead bodies because of the very lengthy and difficult process that was required of them cleansing themselves in order to be able to return to work in the temple. Priests would avoid touching even their own dead relatives so that they did not have to go through that. For Jesus to say that they were not just unclean from touching dead bodies but the dead body themselves was the highest possible insult. They were snakes, and John the Baptist, the greatest man to ever live, called them that too.

    There is no doubt that these men mentioned here are a brood of vipers, the most evil and most Satan like men you will find. The judgment will be easier on murders then these men, for these men know what the Word says and are accountable in a way that common criminals never can be.

  4. ” Paige was angry, not at Gilyard, he was merely sad about that. Instead he was mad at us, the victims…

    He then said he was going to work to restore him to ministry, even giving a timeline. He spoke about how he and Dr. Vines had been comforting him and how much they loved him. They said he was going to take a break for some help.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    enough with coddling the perpetrators and enablers.

    i can just hear the baby talk now.

    “ooohhh, booboo….there, there….meanie weanies! they were mean!…such meanie weanies!…This is a nice boy. This is a good boy. This is a mother’s angel. and we love him!

    gawwwwwwwd

    they need stinging consequences. then leave them alone — they can figure things out on their own.

  5. “He then said he was going to work to restore him to ministry, even giving a timeline. He spoke about how he and Dr. Vines had been comforting him and how much they loved him.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++

    why on earth favor the scumjerks while ignoring the human beings whose live were destroyed by these men?

    well, a few reasons i can come up with:

    –“redemption” is much more spiritually glamorous than compassion, draws attention to themselves, and makes them look like heroes, it will be part of their resume, their legacy

    –compassion is boring, doesn’t bring them any attention or limelight

    –the lusty temptresses don’t deserve it. they really wanted it, and how dare they complain now and ruin a man’s career!

    –compassion would show that they actually esteem ‘the harlots’ as valued human beings — which would be insupportable

    –they worked this hard to roll equality back to female subjugation, and all that hard work would be in jeopardy

    –the preeminence of the christian male is simply too much of a priority
    .
    .
    the doublestandards and hypocrisy…the sheer evil…. what’s a word for double unbearable?

    MOD: I corrected your name. GBTC

  6. This is a nice boy. This is a good boy. This is a mother’s angel. and we love him!”

    Show me a Mommy’s Pwecious Dawling like that, and I’ll show you a Narcissist and a Sociopath with an Angel of Light mask.

  7. he said “it would be embarrassing for me if anyone knew” (understand that the purity culture was huge back then and also this was still a racial issue and with Darrell being African American and me being white virgin…I understood his meaning as to what my reputation or eligibility would look like within SBC culture).

    About the same as it would look like under Ku Klux Kulture.
    (Come to think of it, is there any difference? Other than more God-talk in SBC than KKK?)

  8. elastigirl: why on earth favor the scumjerks while ignoring the human beings whose live were destroyed by these men?

    Their sympathy always lies with men, never the people they hurt. It’s telling.

  9. “Today I suddenly came to the conclusion that Tiffany’s story provides a mirror into the plethora of issues within the SBC which lead to problems in effectively dealing with abuse on many levels. She has carefully documented her journey for many years and we have decided to try to get it all down in writing. It will probably take us a few months.”

    Dee is 100% correct. I have seen similar behavior, many of “ lesser” “seriousness” in the Fundgelical complex for over 45 years…
    Image/brand/marketing is much more important than caring for the one lost sheep… or in this case, over 50 lost sheep?

  10. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    “a Narcissist and a Sociopath with an Angel of Light mask.”
    +++++++++++++

    what does a narcissist or sociopath do when backed into a corner? when the jig is up, so to speak?

    (simply curious)

  11. Can anyone really trust Paige Patterson’s spin on things?! He was best buds with Judge Paul Pressler (co-architect of SBC’s Conservative Resurgence), who was accused of child abuse. Patterson even gave Pressler a prime location in the now defunct stained-glass window hall of shame in the SWBTS chapel, even though those allegations were in the air. Patterson was named in a lawsuit as helping Pressler cover up his abuse. And who can forget Patterson’s “break her down” handling of a rape victim at SWBTS … leading to his removal as President, SWBTS. And Patterson is now involved in a new “ministry” venture in SBC?!! Good Lord, wake up folks!! These are the sort of things that the prophet Ezekiel saw in a vision of the perverted priesthood (Ezekiel 8).

  12. elastigirl: “I have been told by multiple sources that Patterson is mounting a comeback.”
    +++++++++++++++

    this new “Conservative Baptist Network”, perhaps?

    Would make sense. Patterson’s brother-in-law Chuck Kelley is promoting the CBN; Kelley was a former President of SBC’s New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary.

    Scroll down to view a video of Kelley on the CBN website:
    http://conservativebaptistnetwork.com/

  13. elastigirl: what does a narcissist or sociopath do when backed into a corner? when the jig is up, so to speak?

    Go Scorched Earth Nuclear.
    “IF I CAN’T GET MY WAY, I’LL MAKE SURE NOBODY CAN!!!!!! SEE WHAT THEY MADE ME DO!!!!! THEY HAVE NOBODY TO BLAME BUT THEMSELVES!!!!!”

  14. Why is Patterson the only focus?

    Because Patterson is out of favor, and can safely become the fall guy.

  15. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    “Show me a Mommy’s Pwecious Dawling like that, and I’ll show you a Narcissist and a Sociopath with an Angel of Light mask.”
    ++++++++++++

    or a denomination’s or subculture’s Pwecious Dawling.

    I observe an entire subculture of millions of christians cooing over their Pwecious Dawlings. their gospel-celebrity heroes. complete with their angle of light masks.

    goodness, christian culture is like a freak factory. (as in, a factory that makes freaks)

    religious freaks they look to as 12-foot tall gleaming heroes. (of course some are 5’4 napoleons)

  16. Very slightly off of the main topic here, but I am requesting prayer for direction from God concerning a case of ongoing sexual harassment from a manager where I work directed at a 16 year old child. A number of days ago the manager made a vulgar, sexually explicit suggestion directed directly at the child. Last night he repeated it loudly again to a difference audience of employees. Some customers may have even heard the “joke.” He smiled and laughed at his crude “joke.” This is the same old issue we have discussed again and again here inside the church. But this time this is inside a business in an industry that tops the list of most sexual harassment complaints per capita. The perp makes no claim to be a Christian but boldly tells others of his participation in “the gay community.”

    So I would appreciate prayer as I have to do something about this. And the details of this will anger some of the others here for the perp. is a gay male and his target is also male. This manager is way out of the closet and it is my observation that that has emboldened him to point where he thinks he can get away with crude language that a straight male manager simply could not. I could not imagine a straight manager making such “jokes” directly at a 16 year old girl. This situation has been deeply disturbing me after realizing how well this fits the patterns here that we talk over and over about with different perps.

  17. elastigirl: what does a narcissist or sociopath do when backed into a corner? when the jig is up, so to speak?

    We know what the narcissists do. There are tens of thousands of comments on this site based on what they actually do and say when cornered on what the facts are. The sociopath will simply shoot and kill you as murder is not off limits to them. The dark triad of personality disorders is very dark indeed…

  18. Dee, you missed your calling.
    You make the defense look silly.
    You should be making final arguments before a jury.

  19. Ms. Colter’s Twitter has a few retweets passive aggressively talking about slander and suffering for truth.

    Butter would not melt in her mouth, as my grandma used to say.

  20. Magistos:
    Ms. Colter’s Twitter has a few retweets passive aggressively talking about slander and suffering for truth.

    Butter would not melt in her mouth, as my grandma used to say.

    I grew up with a younger brother who was (and is) NPD, Sociopath, and Master Manipulator. He has a special talent for “reading people” and knowing just which buttons to push.

    He can stare at you in total wide-eyed Innocence and lie with butter-wouldn’t-melt-in-his-mouth Utter Sincerity. And You WILL Believe His Lies. Completely. It’s like he’s casting a Charm Person spell in D&D.

  21. elastigirl: what does a narcissist or sociopath do when backed into a corner? when the jig is up, so to speak?

    (simply curious)

    I think that the evidence for that is pretty conclusive: they run away and start over in a context in which their true character is not yet widely known, or believed.

    Paraphrasing/adapting:
    “can the leopard change its spots?” No more can a narcissist or a sociopath change his character.

  22. Jeffrey Chalmers: Image/brand/marketing is much more important than caring for the one lost sheep… or in this case, over 50 lost sheep?

    If Patterson was a really good “marketer”, they would have stopped protecting Gilyard long ago. Patterson is an idiot if he really thinks spinning his own story now is a good marketing plan. Pretending none of this happened isn’t a great option, either, but I think it’s a better one than continuing to support Gilyard or trying to reframe the story at this point.

    The biggest problem with Patterson is that he’s incapable of thinking outside of his box. He’s more concerned with being thought of as right than doing right. He allowed terrible things to happen under his leadership, but sided with the wrong people over them not only to the detriment of the victims, but to his own detriment as well. He will never change, he will never wise up, and everybody else knows it (except maybe the Colters).

    I dunno, maybe Gilyard has stuff on him and blackmailed him. I wonder that about a lot of these guys that doggedly support terrible men even when the whole world already knows how terrible they are.

  23. Samuel Conner: they run away and start over in a context in which their true character is not yet widely known, or believed.

    Yes, but that does not happen until it happens.

    Narcissistic individuals can be burrowed thoroughly into family and community, or they can be alienated from all who knew them, or anything in between. Meanwhile, everyone needs to be astute in dealing with everyone. Learn the warning signs. The demands for loyalty, the habit of marginalizing and discrediting, the simple change of one little fact that makes a whole story a lie (it was Tuesday, not Wednesday). Anybody got more?

  24. elastigirl: what does a narcissist or sociopath do when backed into a corner? when the jig is up, so to speak?

    Oh you mean, like Driscoll … and MacDonald … and Tullian … and a host of other celebrity pastors? They simply disappear for a short season to “repent” and be renewed, restored and reinvented into a new ministry package … and then come back to take the church for another ride … and their gullible followers love it so. They don’t have enough love for the Body of Christ to fade into obscurity, to serve in a more humble role. A narcissist has a grandiose sense of self-importance, a need to be on stage and admired, but with a lack of empathy for others. They always come back with a new gimmick to fleece the flock … they don’t know what else to do … it’s a sickness.

  25. It’s intriguing, reflecting upon the gender dynamics that may be at play here.

    It seems all “challenges” against Tiffany have come from SHARAYAH Colter’s blog and social media posts.

    Granted, she presents herself as an investigative journalist.

    But think how it would look if it were SCOTT Colter doing all the talking instead …

  26. ishy: The biggest problem with Patterson is that he’s incapable of thinking outside of his box.

    BINGO.
    Unlike Patterson, two others, say Mohler and MacArthur, know their Machiavelli and apply it to their advantage.

  27. ishy: If Patterson was a really good “marketer”, they would have stopped protecting Gilyard long ago.

    I feel like the responses to most of these incidents by people inside and outside of the church would be *helped* by a strong anti-abuse stance? Maybe that’s just me be a rosy eyed optimist, but keeping dudes who are abusing people left and right doesn’t seem to be a good PR move.

    And if that’s the case, it’s motivated either by stupidity or malice. I’m leaning a lot more towards malice these days. Birds of a feather and all that…

  28. Muff Potter: Unlike Patterson, two others, say Mohler and MacArthur, know their Machiavelli and apply it to their advantage.

    Well, Mohler doggedly protected Mahaney at the expense of a lot of his own things, so he’s not as smart as he thinks he is, either. But he’s definitely way ahead of Patterson.

    And MacArthur is definitely not, because he’s a terrible nepotist and chooses dumb friends like Phil Johnson.

    All three of them are too big for their britches…

  29. bradfuturistguy: But think how it would look if it were SCOTT Colter doing all the talking instead …

    Look at the way they are using weinsteins lawyer to go after his victims *as a woman*. I suppose they are both getting paid to protect these guys, which means their words aren’t worth the paper they are printed on imo. (unless i’m misunderstand the deal with colter).

  30. Lea: I feel like the responses to most of these incidents by people inside and outside of the church would be *helped* by a strong anti-abuse stance? Maybe that’s just me be a rosy eyed optimist, but keeping dudes who are abusing people left and right doesn’t seem to be a good PR move.

    And if that’s the case, it’s motivated either by stupidity or malice. I’m leaning a lot more towards malice these days.

    It definitely would be! Is protecting these abusers worth all the fallout when their abuse goes public? I don’t think so.

    There is definitely malice on the part of some of these individuals, but I don’t think so with Patterson. Since one definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over despite the bad consequences, that definitely could apply to Patterson.

  31. Lea,

    With the context being staunch complementarianism, but also the SBC emphasis on dealing with sexual abuse/harassment/violence, it seems more cagey to have a woman attempt to counteract Tiffany’s story than a man.

    But then, the whole thing is just sooo messed up, trying to deny and “controversialize” Tiffany’s accounts of what happened.

  32. First time I’ve actually seen pictures of Tiffany. All I can say is she photographed really well. (And more sinister, I can see why Gilyard marked her for Conquest.)

    One oddity I noticed about her Student ID card pic. The card says school year 1990-91 but her hairstyle seems retro for that time period. More like the 1980-vintage “Farrah Fawcett Look”.

  33. brad/futuristguy: it seems more cagey to have a woman attempt to counteract Tiffany’s story than a man.

    A Properly Winsomely Submissive CHRISTIAN(TM) woman.
    Wonder if Scott is dictating her posts word-for-word?

  34. brad/futuristguy: the whole thing is just sooo messed up, trying to deny and “controversialize” Tiffany’s accounts of what happened

    IMO, some of these guys feel so important and their agendas so crucial, that they don’t want to be distracted by anything which would throw them off course. Pressler was critical to the Conservative Resurgence, so cover for him. Gilyard was an up-and-comer SBC preacher extraordinaire, so protect him. Silence the cries of victims, break them down; the abusers are so much more important to the grand scheme of things. These movers and shakers in Christendom ought to know that sooner or later, their sins will find them out.

  35. HeadlessUnicornGuy: The card says school year 1990-91 but her hairstyle seems retro for that time period.

    Eh, it’s a very tail end of the 80’s look. Different from Farah. I don’t have curly hair like that, but I was amused by the vintage ‘glamour shots’ look.

  36. elastigirl: what does a narcissist or sociopath do when backed into a corner? when the jig is up, so to speak?

    They double down, triple down, lie, sweet talk, blame, deny, etc.

  37. Jerry Vines and the other pastors covering up the molestation need to just resign from the scene completley.

    Reference Numbers 20:1-13; Moses was to speak to the rock for water to come forth, as God instructed. Instead, he struck it with anger, with his rod. Water still came forth, but Moses’ disobedience prevented him from entering the promised land.

    Jerry Vines and his cohorts’ disobedience (Romans 18:5-6), they to must be restricted from the pulpit and stage.

  38. Brian: Jerry Vines and the other pastors covering up the molestation need to just resign from the scene completley.

    But GOD(TM) hasn’t told them to resign!
    They’re too Important!
    What would God ever do without them?

  39. Lea: I don’t have curly hair like that, but I was amused by the vintage ‘glamour shots’ look.

    I’ve always been a sucker for vintage glamor shots.

    Better than Grunge (an Eighties fashion trend where you’d spend three-four figures on a wardrobe to look like you’d been homeless on the street for months).

  40. HeadlessUnicornGuy: Better than Grunge (an Eighties fashion trend

    80s???? You’ve got your decades mixed up man. Early 90’s/Nirvana/etc all the way. IE, my high school years. Grunge was so wonderfully comfy.

  41. Brian,

    Good luck on that one!!! These guys are “above” being discipled by us pew peons… just read the wiki page about him!

  42. Using a cell phone, the URL is to long to type:

    “Texas church expelled from Southern Baptist Convention for hiring registered sex offender as pastor”

  43. Mr. Jesperson,

    Jesperson, to be blunt – get off your butt and do something. At the very minimum you document each statement the same day – The exact date, hour, and place, too.

    Ask around and see if others are disturbed as well. See if they’re willing to write something down about what they heard.

    Once you get a combination of 3 or 4 statements you head directly to your HR.

    “I am disturbed by this pattern of behaviour” , you say. “is this considered normal?”

    Keep copies.

    If you do it correctly – that guy is toast and no one will touch you.

    If there’s any retaliation I have no doubt lawyers would help you out for a “piece of the action”

    If you’re worried about this whole thing , and if it’s as bad as you say , a few hundred bucks to talk to a sexual harassment lawyer Ahead of time is a worthwhile investment.

  44. Mr. Jesperson,

    I don’t understand the need for prayer about what to do.

    Most companies these days have policies against sexual harassment.

    I’d say to just report the guy, tell your HR department what you witnessed.

    I’d also speak up. Next time it happens, if there is a next time, tell the guy that his behavior is inappropriate and to stop it.

    As to the post about Tiffany Thigpen, I’m not sure what to say that I’ve not said before on other similar posts like this in years past.

    At this point, I’m not surprised anymore when churches side with the abusers and shame, harass, or punish the victims. It’s the norm.

    It’s more shocking when churches do the opposite thing (which would be the right/ legal/ moral) thing and report the creep and comfort the victim.

  45. Mr. Jesperson: I could not imagine a straight manager making such “jokes” directly at a 16 year old girl.

    Don’t kid yourself. No group has a monopoly on harassment or creating a hostile working environment. TWW is full of stories of straight men making life difficult for girls.

    So yes, take action, as Midwest Guy suggests–but because it looks like sexual harassment, quite apart from the manager’s orientation. This approach should strengthen your case, I think.

  46. MrJesperson: I could not imagine a straight manager making such “jokes” directly at a 16 year old girl.

    (fyi, this kind of thing happens all the time, actually).

  47. Friend: Don’t kid yourself. No group has a monopoly on harassment or creating a hostile working environment. TWW is full of stories of straight men making life difficult for girls.

    Yeah, I see we’re on the same page.

    As for the situation, it will probably be preferable for an adult to report, as it takes the onus off the 16 year old but nobody should be a rosy eyed optimist about what HR may do. It’s just as likely to come back on the reporter as the reported, if not more likely. (that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t report)

  48. “Why would my Pastor, Vines the President of the SBC at that time, invite a KNOWN sexual predator who had just 2 weeks prior attempted to rape a teen, to speak to the audience of the SBC?”

    If all the above is accurate, I would guess straight up optics and what was adjudged the less messy path via cover-up then confronting the issue and risking constituencies and feathered nests and perches. Priorities, don’t you know.

  49. Ava Aaronson:
    Mr. Jesperson,

    Praying.

    How Christianese.
    I prefer Midwest Guy: “Get off your butt and do something”.

    Daisy: I don’t understand the need for prayer about what to do.

    Because taking action would be Worldly and Fleshly?

    All too often in-country, Praying(TM) is Christianese for doing nothing and feeling Spiritual about it.

  50. Friend: Mr. Jesperson: I could not imagine a straight manager making such “jokes” directly at a 16 year old girl.

    Don’t kid yourself. No group has a monopoly on harassment or creating a hostile working environment. TWW is full of stories of straight men making life difficult for girls.

    So yes, take action, as Midwest Guy suggests–but because it looks like sexual harassment, quite apart from the manager’s orientation. This approach should strengthen your case, I think.

    Yes. Stress the appearance of sexual harassment, NOT the orientation.
    Sexual harassment is sexual harassment regardless of orientation.

    Stressing the orientation will just open you up to countercharges. If said manager IS a predator, you’re just giving him a perfect opportunity to play The CHRISTIANS!!!! HOMOPHOBIA!!! Card and turn the tables on you. Remember that successful predators are masters of camouflage and blame-shifting and playing the Poor Poor Innocent Victim of PERSECUTION(TM).

    (The plausible deniability via “I was only joking!” could be the sign of a predator or of just being a jerk in general. If the latter, he would have shown it in other situations. Or he could just be that clueless.)

    “Evangelicals are obsessed with homosexuality. It’s weird.”
    — the original Internet Monk

  51. Headless Unicorn Guy: Praying.

    How Christianese.
    I prefer Midwest Guy: “Get off your butt and do something”.

    Do both! There was both prayer and action in the life of Jesus. We ain’t Jesus, but Christians would do well to follow His example.

    “If a brother or sister is without [adequate] clothing and lacks [enough] food for each day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace [with my blessing], [keep] warm and feed yourselves,” but he does not give them the necessities for the body, what good does that do? So too, faith, if it does not have works [to back it up], is by itself dead [inoperative and ineffective].” (James 2:15-17)

    “Whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.” (James 4:17)

    It it is within your ability to help and defend a victim of clergy abuse and see that the abuser is rebuked and removed from church, in addition to facing criminal charges, then you should “Pray” and “Get off your butt and do something”. Prayer helps move your behind in the right direction with wisdom and courage. It would sinful to do nothing.

  52. Funny it is how asking for prayer for direction from God about a rather serious incident which is the exact mountain for Dee to die on is so controversial here of all places? Of course I am going to do something about it. My conscience has a big gorilla on it all the time. God placed that there and yet I know my own personal fear of God is not enough, so I am asking God for more of that.

    This brings up the exact issue that concerns me most about some of the commenters here. You talk like God is dead, or does not care, nor does not want us to pray about important matters for direction first before just doing the knee jerk reaction thing. Yet Dee is a Christian and I know why God put me where I am at. He got me the job I have for this purpose.

    I have consulted first with a retired police sergeant detective and checked out my options and researched enough of my options to know what to do next. And I really appreciate this website and what it has brought out and discussed over the years. Last year there were some class-action lawsuits filed against the corp. that I work for about sexual harassment. That is because, according to some report, that 90% of women and 70% of men in this field report that they have been harassed on the job at least once by someone. In response, the corp. set up a hotline to call to report. Given what has happened with the SBC how much do you want to bet that lawyers answer that hotline instead of advocates? I am with the one to not trust the corporate hotline. I hope the owners will take this seriously, but in life doing something which will stir up and expose trouble is always a crap shoot. I have no idea how the owners will respond.

    As for those of you criticizing me at this place I am at, I await your own personal courage to risk your own job doing this kind of thing. Right now you just sound like annoying, barking little dogs. Instead of being encouraging, you criticize someone doing exactly what you have claimed should be done for that is all you ever do. I encourage everyone to look in the mirror. I respect Dee for she does make a stand out in the open and is risking something substantial. I respect everyone who does takes risks in this regard and especially the victims who went public. I do not respect those who play coach from the stands while doing nothing at all out in the open like Dee. You are not worthy to tie her shoes. I have taken a public stand using my own name since 2015 against the Gospel for Asia scam and I today I will act on this latest issue. And thanks so much for those praying and not criticizing like scoffers.

  53. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    I was a senior in high school in 90-91 just a few miles away from Tiffany, also going to a fundamentalist church (Evangel Temple Assembly of God), and this was totally a typical hairstyle of the time. My school was N.B. Forrest HS in Jacksonville, which has thankfully been changed to Westside HS recently, since Forrest founded the Klan.

    It’s strange to think that all this stuff was happening in the same community of westside Jacksonville, but I never heard anything about it til years later. Being pentecostal we didn’t typically go to Baptist churches, but the social circles of high school fundy kids definitely interlinked. I feel like the pastor of our church had a lot more integrity than we’ve seen from Vines & Patterson – but really how would I know? Stuff gets brushed under the rug and they go on looking great.

  54. Mr. Jesperson: I am requesting prayer for direction from God concerning a case of ongoing sexual harassment

    Right now you just sound like annoying, barking little dogs.

    If you don’t want annoying little dogs to pray for you, maybe don’t make your prayer request at the kennel. I have been honored to pray for you. Would you like me to stop? Do you think my prayers go unheard? Do you think they will somehow harm your cause?

    You asked for prayers and got a combination of prayers and advice. Folks responded to your description. We all have God-given minds and different insights, based on our experiences. Some of this might help you.

  55. MrJesperson: I do not respect those who play coach from the stands while doing nothing at all out in the open like Dee.

    So…you gave a BUNCH of info about something going on but you are mad at people for giving you advice instead of mindlessly parroting ‘prayers’? Seriously dude?

  56. Mr. Jesperson: As for those of you criticizing me at this place I am at, I await your own personal courage to risk your own job doing this kind of thing. Right now you just sound like annoying, barking little dogs. Instead of being encouraging, you criticize someone doing exactly what you have claimed should be done for that is all you ever do. I encourage everyone to look in the mirror.

    Speaking as both a victim AND someone who risked her job reporting an assault, you don’t know what you are talking about. What do you know about ANYONE here? Nothing, apparently, you haven’t even bothered to notice half the commentors here have been abused in some way. Some of whom have lost families, friends, jobs, and churches from standing up about it.

  57. Folks, a great deal of emotion, pain, and concern are revealed in the posts. This is how we bear one son’s burdens. In the midst of our feelings let us not forget to be graceful . . .

  58. ishy: What do you know about ANYONE here?

    Right? I certainly don’t have experience being a teenager who was hit on by their boss! Or skeeved on by coworkers! Oh wait a minute…yes I do. lol

    ishy, we didn’t say the one thing MrJ thought we were allowed to say which means we’re terrible people, compared to him. Because we offered ADVICE! Heavens.

  59. Headless Unicorn Guy (quoting The Original Internet Monk): “Evangelicals are obsessed with homosexuality. It’s weird.”

    Except it’s not weird, of course (and TOIM probably realised this too).

    By every account, a minority of people are gay_homosexuals. A majority of evangelicals aren’t gay_homosexuals, therefore, and can safely make not being a gay_homosexual the primary shibboleth of righteousness without fear of failing it.

  60. Nick Bulbeck,

    Just like the Bible has allot of verses about the sin of “gluttony”…. yet the some of the fundy preacher I use to “under” were obese and they NEVER spoke on sin of gluttony…. and boy did chow down at the church pot lucks!

  61. Mr. Jesperson,

    Mr. Jesperson,

    When you ask for prayer/advice here, and share so much detail, you will ask and receive. If you don’t agree with the advice, you don’t need to continue to participate in the discussions. That being said, I’ve been a teacher and I’ve been a mandated reporter since 1980. A minor under 18 is covered by child abuse laws. If you report to the appropriate chlld abuse hotline, which won’t be managed by corporate, you can make an anonymous report. I believe they must investigate within 72 hours in most, if not all, states. If your are out of the U.S., you may need to check on the guidelines. You have information, you have a conscience, and I think you know what is required.

    Many years ago I was new to a school and an older teacher wouldn’t leave me alone. He was also very public and lewd with his comments. Some of my co-workers heard him, and I never needed to file a report on my behalf (I was close to doing it). My co-workers screamed at him (that’s what I was told much later), and he left me alone. I have always been thankful for their intervention.

  62. Lea,

    (Also somebody slyly slid in a comment about david dancing before the lord being bad but I dont think they caught it)

  63. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSURo8aPhvM

    If this is what Strachan means, he may have a bigger problem of his own. It’s more common in charismatic/Pentecostal/ethnic churches (many black and Hispanic congregations have dance troupes that do everything form ballet to hip-hop). I personally think it’s a great way to get the younger folks involved, and it’s a meaningful way to praise God. Gee, David danced before the Lord and Miriam let the women in dancing and praising God at the Red Sea. I was part of a Hispanic congregation for a number of years, and I felt the dance troupe lent a great deal of beauty and meaning to the services. By the way, I’m a senior citizen-not a young person who is heavily impacted by modern music. Hymns are much more to my liking, but dance, tastefully done, can add much to a worship service. I’m just guessing, but I doubt Owen would be comfortable at the Nutcracker, either.

  64. Nick Bulbeck: By every account, a minority of people are gay_homosexuals. A majority of evangelicals aren’t gay_homosexuals, therefore, and can safely make not being a gay_homosexual the primary shibboleth of righteousness without fear of failing it.

    Until they get caught with a live boy instead of a dead woman.

    I’m sure there are also a few MenaGAWD who are in the closet and self-medicating/self-treating in secret by preaching against their own secret taboo. Like Ted Haggard, who was second only to Fred Phelps in that shibboleth of righteousness while doing rentboys in secret.

  65. Lea: So…you gave a BUNCH of info about something going on but you are mad at people for giving you advice instead of mindlessly parroting ‘prayers’? Seriously dude?

    In my experience, “I’ll Pray For You” or “I’ll Pray About It” is Christianese for doing nothing and feeling all Righteous about it. Virtue-signalling, nothing more.

  66. Friend: You asked for prayers and got a combination of prayers and advice. Folks responded to your description. We all have God-given minds and different insights, based on our experiences. Some of this might help you.

    I think we all got “PWNED J00!”
    Which will make it that much harder for someone in the same situation (for real?) to be believed.

  67. Brian,

    “What are the basics of starting a home Bible study group?”
    +++++++++++++++

    for real? (this was in response to my petri dish comment…. show me what i’m missing about how the petri dish ties in, here)

    but, let me see if i can answer your question.

    my only experience is starting a prayer group. i told a few people who know everyone, assuming they would get the word out. Then i just had my weekly prayer meeting with just myself for a few months until the first person called.

    when we had several people, the value of being flexible and open-minded about all the many perspectives and practices within christendom became apparent.

    we keep the main thing the main thing, welcome all the variety and appreciate it all, and don’t spend too much time on controversial issues when they come up.

  68. Jeffrey Chalmers:
    Nick Bulbeck,

    Just like the Bible has a lot of verses about the sin of “gluttony”…. yet the some of the fundy preacher I use to “under” were obese and they NEVER spoke on sin of gluttony…. and boy did chow down at the church pot lucks!

    The too-fat-to-stand-up preacher railing against some Horrible Sin (usually a Pelvic Issue) is so much a shtick there were even RL YouTube videos about it. (From some links from a now-forgotten defunct website that as into church weirdness.) One of them WAS delivering their fire and brimstone sitting behind the pulpit because they were actually too fat to stand up.

    As for chowing down at church potlucks, they like to eat hearty in the South (look at Elvis) and partaking of all the potluck offerings may be a way of showing Hospitality. Preacher-Man may even be expected to partake of them all.

  69. Headless Unicorn Guy: In my experience, “I’ll Pray For You” or “I’ll Pray About It” is Christianese for doing nothing and feeling all Righteous about it.

    If people don’t follow through with prayer, they are indeed doing nothing. I do believe in prayer as a way to help, especially when it is the only thing one can do: I can’t undo a catastrophe far away, but I can pray for survivors to be healed and comforted.

    You are absolutely right, though, that thoughts and prayers are often a completely empty offer, and even a way to get people to stop talking about a problem. And the offer backfires when folks actually could take concrete action—drop off a meal, improve public safety, etc.

  70. Headless Unicorn Guy: Preacher-Man may even be expected to partake of them all.

    Ha! A lot of preachers tactfully do not eat food at church, because it is often prepared with no regard to food safety. I used to oversee church receptions, and it drove me bonkers when people used their unwashed hands to transfer unwashed strawberries to a dodgy-looking tray. So that was me running around saying, “Oh, you just have to try this great new lavender hand soap!” and “Betty brought a gorgeous colander!” and “Look! Clean dish towels!”

    (No wonder I burned out……………)

  71. Brian,

    are you thinking of starting a home bible study?

    if i were to start a bible study, i would make a pact with myself that my perspective is only my perspective and not necessarily the ‘gospel truth’. i would offer it if helpful in the moment, but make it clear that there are different ways of looking at the issue.

  72. elastigirl: but, let me see if i can answer your question.

    my only experience is starting a prayer group. i told a few people who know everyone, assuming they would get the word out. Then i just had my weekly prayer meeting with just myself for a few months until the first person called.

    The Hebrew Talmud says that God counts the tears of women…

    When the Jazzman’s testifyin’
    A faithless man believes
    He can sing you into paradise
    Or bring you to your knees
    It’s a gospel kind of feelin’
    A touch of Georgia slide
    A song of pure revival
    And a style that’s sanctified

    — Carole King 1974 —

  73. Muff Potter,

    “The Hebrew Talmud says that God counts the tears of women…

    When the Jazzman’s testifyin’
    A faithless man believes
    He can sing you into paradise
    Or bring you to your knees
    It’s a gospel kind of feelin’…

    ++++++++++++++++++++

    lovely sentiments, both.

    isn’t it great how music is so life-giving. how it changes the environment, changes people. hits the reset button, soothes, renews, motivates, invigorates, provokes deeper thoughts, is a catalyst for so many positive things that are full of life.

    God inhabits the inspiration, which is no respecter of persons. an equal-opportunity thing.

    just love that. it’s like an expression of God’s love for all humanity.

  74. Brian: You make light if it, but OCD like behavior is actually anxiety if you were an A.C.E. kid.

    I was going for self deprecation, not making light of OCD. And yes, I was anxious. Our youth sports program had food safety requirements, but local churches were not following those at the time. “Foodborne illness church” is a problem and an easy Google search.

    To tie this back to the TWW theme: churches often reject pesky government oversight that is intended to safeguard health and preserve human life.

    Therefore you might be more likely to see hair nets and food safety gloves at a youth soccer game than at a church function.

  75. Brian,

    You are always so gentle in your comments. My reply above looks unfriendly, not what I intended. Apologies. (Having a tough day here.)

  76. Linn: If this is what Strachan means, he may have a bigger problem of his own.

    Aww! Those kids are super cute! I may have seen something like that but I can’t imagine objecting to it so I was sort of lost. I go to a liturgical church and we rarely have things like that, although I think we had one with little streamers once? IDK.

  77. Friend: Ha! A lot of preachers tactfully do not eat food at church, because it is often prepared with no regard to food safety.

    I guess I’ve never been overly concerned (have a coworker that won’t eat shared food because she is a bit germaphobic) but our church actually has a paid cook on staff who does all the meals for official church stuff (except maybe once a year). I loved potlucks but this actually makes a lot of sense too and is way easier.

  78. Friend,

    It didn’t come across negatively. In the past, you described your getting intensely involved in church, then feeling burned out afterwards. That’s the way I read it.

    My brother claims to be OCD, not having visited a therapist. My therapist said OCD like symptoms in an ACE kid/person can actually be anxiety. It made me perfect for my aviation career in some ways, but stunted advancement beyond a certain point within it.

  79. Rich:
    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    I was a senior in high school in 90-91 just a fewmiles away from Tiffany, also going to a fundamentalist church (Evangel Temple Assembly of God), and this was totally a typical hairstyle of the time. My school was N.B. Forrest HS in Jacksonville, which has thankfully been changed to Westside HS recently, since Forrest founded the Klan.

    It’s strange to think that all this stuff was happening in the same community of westside Jacksonville, but I never heard anything about it til years later. Being pentecostal we didn’t typically go to Baptist churches, but the social circles of high school fundy kids definitely interlinked. I feel like the pastor of our church had a lot more integrity than we’ve seen from Vines & Patterson – but really how would I know? Stuff gets brushed under the rug and they go on looking great.

    I went to school at some baptist (independent) schools in Jax in the 70’s and way more than what i’ve read on here was going on at all 3 schools I attended. I could show you at this late date (i’m 62 now) the actual locations of some things that took place in the buildings. I guess the 70’s were really the worst. And believe me when I tell you this. Nobody in the 70’s who had “things” happen to them ever received any apologies or saw anyone do any jail time. No one wrote newspaper articles. No one did blogs. I always thought of this city as the worst, the worst of anywhere I ever lived.

  80. elastigirl,

    Yes, yes, and yes to all of your comment.
    It is my fervent wish that more and more people can reach escape velocity from those who tell them that it’s not real and genuine unless it’s done their way.

  81. Brian: My therapist said OCD like symptoms in an ACE kid/person can actually be anxiety.

    OCD Is an anxiety disorder just in general (but slightly different than GAD).

  82. Lea: Brian: My therapist said OCD like symptoms in an ACE kid/person can actually be anxiety.

    OCD Is an anxiety disorder just in general (but slightly different than GAD).

    Never mind OCD and GAD, what’s ACE in this context?

  83. Brian,

    that’s really neat, Brian. so, would you go to their house?

    i’m sure you will do a great job. you have such a sincere heart.

  84. Lea: The common use of this term for asexual (i think?) threw me, but I think he means adverse childhood events?

    A.C.E. (Accelerated Christian Education) is an infamous curriculum.

    I wasn’t exposed to it, but it sounds like Brian knows a lot about it.