First!

Insomnia.

Anybody who preys on young boys or girls needs to be removed from all positions of authority permanently and reported to the authorities for their crimes. Even if they appear to get away with it, God sees it all and He has made His views clear in Matthew 18.

Thanks for another important post, TWW. From the post:

From the “Family Friend” December 28, 2017, 11:53pm

“… I have been in the family home over the years. Even when I was a teen, his relations with young men seemed very odd. But he was the king of the castle, and no one dared to question his ‘Christian’ methods.”

The Church is God’s castle. Church people need to step up. This type of predatory pervert “king” and his methods should have no affiliation with God’s people, with any children, with any persons, for that matter.

Leadership = do the right thing, certainly in regard to children. No hand wave, no dismissal. Minors are completely out of their element with this type of “king in his castle”. For example, the poor kid at the Club froze, terrified. The boy had no idea, until he figured out what this church-sanctioned “king in his castle” was up to, and he was already trapped. Betrayal. Tricked, and the “king” used the church to find trusting victims.

Time to dethrone the predatory “king”.

Note the theme of people not wanting to take down a man of importance and a movement. It’s not like we’ve seen anything like in the comments section in recent days…

These are the people who decided women’s roles should be minimized.

People should really think about this.

ishy wrote:

This comment is astounding:

“I also told a Baptist leader about it, and got a response that the cause of Biblical inerrancy was so important that he didn’t want to jeopardize the conservative resurgence.”

IMO,They had to TAKEOVER the SBC and it did not matter if any of their leaders were immoral. The fruits of the TAKEOVER are quiet evident in the SBC today.

Forrest wrote:

Anybody who preys on young boys or girls needs to be removed from all positions of authority permanently and reported to the authorities for their crimes. Even if they appear to get away with it, God sees it all and He has made His views clear in Matthew 18.

The sad part Pressler is in his 80’s.

My deceased father, while not a intellectual giant, but liked practical truism, much like Yogi Berra ( baseball was my fathers life). Anyway, one of these truisms was: look out, “what ever the preacher preaches the most about, he is probably guitly of !”
I wonder how often the “conservative resurgence” has preached against child molestation, and homosexuality?

It angers me that SBC funds are having to be spent in defense of this lawsuit but as it starts to appear that there was a systemic cover-up of Pressler’s behavior, it makes sense.

ishy wrote:

You hate all who do wrong;
you destroy those who tell lies.

Get this one printed up and sent to the ‘biblical inerrancy’ crowd.

It seems the leadership was all dirty. Maybe current folks should consider that the fruit of that might be spoiled as well?

Worst kept secret in Houston?!

Worst kept secret in the Southern Baptist Convention?!!

mot wrote:

But Max, the TAKEOVER got rid of all the “liberals”.

Deeds done in darkness are never good in the end.

mot wrote:

But Max, the TAKEOVER got rid of all the “liberals”.

Well, this bunch has certainly redefined “conservative” in my mind.

JYJames wrote:

the folks who put up the stained glass window in this predator’s honor

… need to be looking for big black curtain today.

Max wrote:

Look for Patterson to retire soon, one step ahead of the axe.

Looks like work is progressing nicely on his retirement “apartment”:

https://baptistblog.wordpress.com/2018/03/15/this-old-house/

DEEBS – I want to pause here and thank you for your dedicated efforts to inform and warn the Church about these matters. I know you work tirelessly to represent the least of these who have been abused in one form or another by church leaders. You do that with no compensation nor standing ovation. My wife just said that you remind her of the women who supported Jesus out of their private means (Luke 8:3). You have been raised up for such a (rotten) time as this. Thank you for staying focused in the midst of weeping and gnashing of teeth from the followers of those you expose.

FW Rez wrote:

Max wrote:

Look for Patterson to retire soon, one step ahead of the axe.

Looks like work is progressing nicely on his retirement “apartment”:

https://baptistblog.wordpress.com/2018/03/15/this-old-house/

IMO Paige is treated God like by the SBC leaders. The damage he has done to the SBC and individuals can not even begin to be calculated.

FW Rez wrote:

Looks like work is progressing nicely on his (Paige Patterson) retirement “apartment”:

https://baptistblog.wordpress.com/2018/03/15/this-old-house/

Nice digs. Since this will be on the SWBTS campus, Patterson can easily walk over each day to visit with his successor … who most likely will be a hand-picked Al Mohler guy; SWBTS control will be Dr. Mohler’s final jewel in his SBC crown.

FW Rez wrote:

I agree with you that Calvinism has increased under BFM2K. I also think that BFM2K has contributed a lot to a general rise in Authoritarianism, making the SBC more palatable to Fundamentalists of all ilks. I’m just not sure of the correlation between the two.

I don’t think Patterson, at al. had any idea they were bringing in the age of the New Calvinists in the SBC. I think they wanted to be the ones in change. It seems to me they didn’t plan as far ahead as Mohler did.

dee wrote:

I cannot understand how he could do all that stuff for the SBC, getting rid of *liberals* while accosting boys. What is broken in his soul? How many people stood by and said nothing?

I don’t see how people in his inner circle could not know what was going on ……. But then Patterson protected a sexual predator for years.

Yeah, these are the people who spearheaded the “conservative resurgence”!!!!

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

I don’t see how people in his inner circle could not know what was going on ……. But then Patterson protected a sexual predator for years.

I have always wondered why Patterson and Pressler have been untouchable to this point in time. The plan for the TAKEOVER began almost 50 years ago.

FW Rez wrote:

I agree with you that Calvinism has increased under BFM2K. I also think that BFM2K has contributed a lot to a general rise in Authoritarianism, making the SBC more palatable to Fundamentalists of all ilks. I’m just not sure of the correlation between the two.

I think if there is a connection it is a reverse causation one…

IE, some of these guys are switching things up to take control. My regular presby church/elder board doesn’t act like we see.

I also think if you look only at Calvinism you are missing all the authoritarianism that is simply about controlling women and obviously for some of these guys, children, so they can use and abuse them. I’m sure there are many who bought into this sincerely and with no ill intent and didn’t realize what people like Pressler were about. But there was a dark side here too.

mot wrote:

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

I don’t see how people in his inner circle could not know what was going on ……. But then Patterson protected a sexual predator for years.

I have always wondered why Patterson and Pressler have been untouchable to this point in time. The plan for the TAKEOVER began almost 50 years ago.

I think we are seeing why. Joel Gregory wrote about the infamous airport meeting with all the big cheeses back in the CR. It was all about Paige Patterson. He was always one step ahead of the firing ax but always landed on his feet. I used to joke that he probably knew where all the bodies were buried.

I don’t think it’s a joke anymore.

@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
Like Mahaney. It seems position and title cover a lot of sin.

Lydia wrote:

I am not about forcing people to change or telling them what kind of a church they are allowed to go to. But I’ve always wondered why people (women) so willingly fell for the comp focus as the “Gospel”.

I think you have a lot of people who grow up in it and it take a while to say ‘wait a minute’. Stronger question is why adults go along.

I think so many people are scared of being ‘liberal’ they can’t think outside of their denominational box.

Linn wrote:

a more supervised youth group in a larger church with co-ed, adult leadership

I don’t have anything against single leaders, but my youth group was led by a married couple and looking at all the issues in youth groups, it seems that may have been wise.

@ Max:
Amen! While I don’t post often, I read nearly every day to stay abreast of the abuses in the church. The Wartburg blog is a valuable resource for those who have been abused; spiritually, emotionally, or physically.

Thank you Dee and Deb. May God richly bless you for your compassion for them as well as your endeavors to bring justice to the perps!

@ Lydia:
Regardless of what liberal actually means in church spaces, it is a word used to keep people in line at this point. IE, don’t go to that church because they are ‘liberal’. They also tie it in with biblical inerrancy.

I think it’s one reason women stay.

Max wrote:

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
I knew that some dirty old men spearheaded the bfm2k, but I had no idea they were this dirty.
Remember, Al Mohler was also on the revision team for the unnecessary revision of the Baptist Faith and Message in 2000. This was the greatest compromise of mainline Southern Baptist belief and practice in over 150 years! BFM2000 essentially opened the door for reformed theology to become the default in SBC life, contrary to what millions of Southern Baptist believe – it has underpinned the trend toward Calvinism in the denomination.
At the time, many Southern Baptists were startled at some of the revisions … many SBC churches chose not to adopt the revision, opting to keep the 1963 version as their statement of faith. I’ve wondered why certain committee members surrendered so easily to these changes. Perhaps they compromised because one or more of the committee members had dirt on prominent leader(s) of the Conservative Resurgence (e.g. Pressler)? Certainly, it has been dirty business ever since, as the new reformers take over the largest non-Calvinist Protestant denomination in America by stealth and deception.

Yes, and the reaping what they have sown continues. I’m just sick….

@ Lea:
This church was very liberal theologically, but the people had a complete trust of the pastor. They couldn’t imagine not being able to trust him. I was a tween who didn’t figure out most of it until I was an adult, and I had totally lost contact with the church.

@ ishy:
The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, as told by the “Conservative Resurgence”

Lucy: Aslan, you have to save him, he’s our brother.

Aslan: Back off little girl, I have an important battle to fight. Edmund picked his side, and he’s totally depraved anyway. His death will bring glory to the Emperor over the Sea, whose perfect justice is made manifest by the suffering of sinners. THERE IS A WAR GOING ON. All that matters is that we win. So go learn a weapon and stop bothering me with your little family issues. Sometimes some little people have to die so that the war can be won.

@ Lea:
But many of the inerrancy folks are now social justice Warriors. Also the big Cal/non Cal divide in the SBC put the inerrancy issue on the back burner for good reason. Things have changed over last 30-40 years. And if the money keeps flowing it will change drastically again and again.

My view is we can learn from all this. Things are rarely what they seem. Beware of falling for rally cries which usually have hidden agendas. I am to the point where I will discuss ideas, agendas, issues, etc but won’t defend groups or institutions. I’ve lived long enough to be snookered too many times.

I am to the point that if I ever start attending a church again, I probably won’t defend it or promote it. Why? Because we really have no idea what’s going on from headquarters to the office during the week.

FW Rez wrote:

The SBC tends not to get involved in local church matters….. until they allow a woman in the pulpit.

Or somebody gets the Holy Ghost!

FW Rez wrote:

Max wrote:
Look for Patterson to retire soon, one step ahead of the axe.
Looks like work is progressing nicely on his retirement “apartment”:

Not a Furtick Mansion?

Lydia wrote:

@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
Like Mahaney. It seems position and title cover a lot of sin.

RANK HATH ITS PRIVILEGES.
(Including SEXUAL Privileges over your Inferiors.)

Max wrote:

Patterson was too busy killing wildlife in Africa to pay much attention to SBC’s theological shift.

Man-Eaters of Kumaon — the Role-Playing Game!

Max wrote:

Lydia wrote:
I am to the point that if I ever start attending a church again, I probably won’t defend it or promote it. Why? Because we really have no idea what’s going on from headquarters to the office during the week.
I used to tell folks I witnessed to in the workplace and elsewhere that they were “safe” to attend a Southern Baptist Church, indicating that Southern Baptists were a “people of the Word” who discipled new Christians well and that it was a denomination which preached the Gospel of Christ for ALL people around the world. I can’t do that any longer in good conscience.

Funny thing, Max, was in Calfornia, my nevk of the woods, the SBC was considered more liberal than many of the General or Regular Cobsevative Bapstists, but not as liberal as the American Baptists. Years later has me shaking my head. I tried a baptist church a couple of months ago and was disappointed. I’m with Lydia and doubtful I can find a church ever.

dee wrote:

I cannot understand how he could do all that stuff for the SBC, getting rid of *liberals* while accosting boys. What is broken in his soul? How many people stood by and said nothing?

I think it’s just plain old human failing, and by no means confined to Baptists.
There were thousands of good German Lutherans who also said and did nothing when the cattle cars were loaded with Jews going East.

Max wrote:

Patterson was too busy killing wildlife in Africa to pay much attention to SBC’s theological shift. I’ll give him this – Mohler is an excellent strategist.

I remember that very first time I went to Wake Forest and toured SEBTS. As Patterson gave his meeting pitch, I just stood there totally creeped out by all the giant dead animal heads looking at me.

Linn wrote:

@ Lea:
This church was very liberal theologically, but the people had a complete trust of the pastor. They couldn’t imagine not being able to trust him.

That is a failing common to humanity, I think. We’ve talked before about how con-men work I think – once you have believed a person, trusted them, it takes a lot to realize you were wrong. It’s not fun. I’ve been there, although not in church.

Lydia wrote:

It was the dominating issue. Hmm.

I honestly thought growing up and for a long time that only scary little cultish churches believed some of the stuff I’ve heard coming out of SBC/TGC/Etc. It’s been mind boggling to hear, but good to know whatever instinct kept me away from the SBC and other such churches before I knew about it was sound.

Lea wrote:

Lydia wrote:

@ Lea:
But many of the inerrancy folks are now social justice Warriors.

Yes, I noticed. Of course, that’s only where race is concerned. Women still don’t matter.

It’s all marketing to me. Do any of them really ‘mean’ any of it?

It’s all about recruiting new people. Russ Moore never mentions his rabid patriarchy in WaPo OP’s. But he mentions everything else cultural. He is rebranding. I think it’s going to get even more interesting.

Lydia wrote:

Russ Moore never mentions his rabid patriarchy in WaPo OP’s.

He’s become big enough now that he can start distancing himself from those who put him in power to appear sociologically-correct … he no longer needs to be theologically-correct. He’s been a shrewd theo-politician to date, covering his religious stripes well.

Now it appears why the SBC would not entertain the adoption of an anti child abuse program. I find it hard to believe that the “leaders” had no clue that this man had this proclivity. A perverted child predator the head of the “resurgence”. No one ever heard a rumor?
I go from being appalled to wanting to cry. This organization says it is all about the gospel. God have mercy. Repent SBC!

Max wrote:

Ken A wrote:

A perverted child predator the head of the “resurgence”. No one ever heard a rumor?

“See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil” for the good of a Christian denomination?!!

Max: These “leaders” have destroyed the SBC IMO.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

I wonder if these teen boys fell into the category of poor, fatherless, etc. That was a big issue highlighted in the movie Spotlight when it came to priests and who they typically targeted and why. It is much more dangerous to Target teens from strong families who have your back.

@ Ken A:

Well, read the article and links. Apparently, their were rumors and a few complaints, but it was covered up and hushed up for 40 years. So, there are many other people complicit in this sicko’s hidden life.

To all this man’s victims, I’m sorry for what you have endured in life while Pressler looked to have an upright, glorious life. YOU, VICTIMS, are the real HEROS.

@ Lydia:
Oops.

Lydia wrote:

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I wonder if these teen boys fell into the category of poor, fatherless, etc. That was a big issue highlighted in the movie Spotlight when it came to priests and who they typically targeted and why. It is much more dangerous to Target teens from strong families who have your back

Even more dangerous if the families are not only strong, but RICH and POWERFUL.

Just like a Roman Patrician with his sex slaves (it’s only adultery if it’s with a free person), target the Family-less, Poor, and (most important) POWERLESS. WIWA ROMA!

Lydia wrote:

And as my mother used to always tell me, everyone puts their pants on the same way.

Except, of course, they don’t. There are religious laws regarding how to put on clothes. But within any one particular group, I suppose, the maxim would hold.

I say this because not everybody does put on their pants the same way metaphorically either. Whether it would be important how one put on one’s pants would certainly be divisive though.

@ okrapod:
I missed the religious laws. I certainly hope I’m doing it right. 🙂

Lydia wrote:

@ okrapod:
I missed the religious laws. I certainly hope I’m doing it right.

Lyds, I think people ‘like us’ are supposed to be putting on skirts, not pants! ; ^ )

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

Lydia wrote:
@ okrapod:
I missed the religious laws. I certainly hope I’m doing it right.
Lyds, I think people ‘like us’ are supposed to be putting on skirts, not pants! ; ^

Years ago I spent a few months in the UAE, where most (female) skin needs to be covered. A local lady lifted up the bottom of my long “dress” once and saw I didn’t have pants on underneath, then gave me a pair because it wasn’t good enough to be wearing only one or the other!

Forrest wrote:

Anybody who preys on young boys or girls needs to be removed from all positions of authority permanently and reported to the authorities for their crimes. Even if they appear to get away with it, God sees it all and He has made His views clear in Matthew 18.

I agree, and just IMHO, it adds an extra special layer of ickiness that this guy’s habit (as stated several times over in the various articles and reader comments in the screen caps) chose to prey on the young men right after Bible studies.

It’s bad enough for people to sexually prey on others, but to do so in the context of Christianity, Bible studies, or in the name of God, is (at least for me), even ten times more creepy and disgusting.

Something about the OP and a few of the comments above from TWW readers reminded me of this
(it’s either this or another page on her blog):

Pastors in Drag, Russell Moore, & Biblical Manhood: The Fruit Test
https://tictocministries.wordpress.com/2015/10/08/pastors-in-drag-russell-moore-biblical-manhood-the-fruit-test/

GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

I can’t find any mention of the square footage of the Patterson house [sorry, it’s called “the Baptist Heritage Center” in Forth Worth], but the cost appears to be $2.5 million. So it’s a Furtick-level structure.

Curious as to how much access the Pattersons will have to Seminary staff resources? Security and grounds are a given. Administrative Assistants? Housekeeping? Chefs? Concierge?

GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

I can’t find any mention of the square footage of the Patterson house [sorry, it’s called “the Baptist Heritage Center” in Forth Worth]

It appears that the Pattersons will live in the Baptist Heritage Center as “theologians-in-residence” upon retirement.

“In September 2017, the trustees graciously offered for President Paige Patterson and his wife to reside as the first theologians-in-residence so they can use the library resources to complete writing projects for the benefit of Southwestern Seminary and the SBC. Thereafter, the president of Southwestern Seminary approves who resides in the short-term theologian-in-residence apartment. Although he does not have any immediate plans to retire, Patterson accepted the offer with the caveat that the next president invites him and his wife to reside there while working on writing assignments.”

https://swbts.edu/news/releases/southwestern-serve-open-house-baptist-history/

@ Augustine:
Kevin Giles is spot on.

@ readingalong:
Didn’t you burn up? Yikes.

Lea wrote:

Lydia wrote:
@ Lea:
But many of the inerrancy folks are now social justice Warriors.
Yes, I noticed. Of course, that’s only where race is concerned. Women still don’t matter.
It’s all marketing to me. Do any of them really ‘mean’ any of it?

Not in my opinion. That is what I have learned. Sigh. We have made it into something it was never meant to be, IMO, and they have to not only keep our attention but relate to new generations to attract them. It just seems like drama after a while. (Doing my Hemingway impression-nada, nada, nada.)

I read this today and wept. It’s just too much. Note the logo bottom far right on the second picture—

https://paulspassingthoughts.com/2018/04/16/when-is-enough-enough-texas-church-massacre-exposes-the-black-heart-of-church/

But Jesus Christ is not like any of it, IMO.

Lydia wrote:

@ Lea:
But many of the inerrancy folks are now social justice Warriors.

I’m in California.
After enough run-ins with Social Justice Warriors (especially those in positions of power), I’d trust Littlefinger from Game of Thrones before I would any of them.

It’s all Virtue Signalling/Rubbing their Righteousness in us Lowborn’s faces, with no regard for any collateral damage.

Jack wrote:

The depredation is bad enough but parents not coming to the defense of their children makes this travesty even worse.

Either:
1) They were really really clueless (it happens).
2) They were too wrapped up in themselves or their own problems.
3) They were “groomed” by the predator and/or The System.
4) They were in awe of God’s Shadow Upon Earth and could not believe otherwise.

Augustine wrote:

Why have we tolerated complementarism with such shallow and imposed textual “Interpretation?”

Because the promoters of comp doctrine found a large demographic of shallow young restless and reformed gullible enough to swallow it. This teaching and other aberrations of faith have produced lots of money for New Calvinist leaders in book sales, conferences, and other angles of getting in the pockets of YRR. There is no effective accountability system in place for church leaders who bring false teachings into the American church.

@ Lydia.:

What is happening in that Texas church is simply disgusting. Those poor people are being victimized all over again by the church execs.

This piece inspired me to add the phrase ‘persistent & enduring rumours, particularly where they seem not to have been investigated fully historically’ into a safeguarding review at work, under the section of what things employees may deem suspicious enough to report about co-workers or others of influence in our organisation or in those we work closely with. It is now an reportable category in my organisation.

Thanks Deebs.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

ION: Fitba’

Can you explain “relegation” to me? I listen to the BBC and right now all the talk is about being clear of the relegation zone in the various leagues. You can assume we don’t do relegation here in America.

Has it been noted that Steve Bradley was on staff at Houston’s Second Baptist Church for nearly a decade and a half before becoming pastor in 1993 of Woodlands Parkway Baptist (now rebranded ‘Stonebridge’) Church?

https://www.woodlandsonline.com/npps/story.cfm?nppage=39841

“Bradley serves as the senior pastor of StoneBridge located in The Woodlands. Prior to moving to The Woodlands in 1993, he served at Second Baptist Church in Houston for 14 years.”

Ricco wrote:

the innocent should ALWAYS come before protecting an institution or a “big man”

…or a big man’s institution, kit and kaboodle.

Get Your Manhood On! Stronger Men’s Conference Coming Up
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2018/04/04/get-your-manhood-on-stronger-mens-conference-coming-up-this-weekend/

@ Daisy:

Oh wow. Go down to the comments on that page, and see the image that a “Dan for Georgia” linked to. Does Mark Driscoll paint? If Driscoll paints, I bet he painted that Tough Guy Jesus with the 6 Pack Abs.
Link again (it’s in the comment box below the blog post):
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2018/04/04/get-your-manhood-on-stronger-mens-conference-coming-up-this-weekend/

Daisy wrote:

I agree, and just IMHO, it adds an extra special layer of ickiness that this guy’s habit (as stated several times over in the various articles and reader comments in the screen caps) chose to prey on the young men right after Bible studies.

It’s bad enough for people to sexually prey on others, but to do so in the context of Christianity, Bible studies, or in the name of God, is (at least for me), even ten times more creepy and disgusting.

Yes, sad.

ION: Computering

Whilst on the train this morning I’ve managed to get my new Apache Tomcat server up and running on my MacBook Air and even got as far as setting up users in the tomcat-users.xml file so that I can access the gui interface on localhost 8080.

Yippee!

Also, Scotrail’s wifi service is working on this train. Which is why I’ve been able to comment twice on Wartburg!

Double yippee!!

Muff Potter wrote:

Lydia. wrote:

I read this today and wept. It’s just too much. Note the logo bottom far right on the second picture—

Why does the peasantry still put up with all this chicanery?

I guess the people whose lives were devastated at Sunderland have little choice at this point in order to receive help that donors intended for them.

John wrote:

Lea wrote:
These are the people who decided women’s roles should be minimized.

People should really think about this.

Lea – was this the case at Willow Creek as well?

John- why are you asking questions you know the answer to?

We are talking about a purposeful plot to change a denomination in a specific way that was orchestrated from individuals. One of whom was acting in ways completely contrary to everything he professed to believe.

WC certainly involved hypocrisy but it was specific to an individual and church. There is no shortage of such men in Christendom, apparently.

JYJames wrote:

Muff Potter wrote:
Why does the peasantry still put up with all this chicanery?
Groomed. He groomed his victims, his community, the SBC throughout the ranks, top to bottom and back up again. To the point where he and his wife get a window, no less. Idols. When the rock star is a predatory pedophile, it says something about the entire network.
Women can’t preach, but the hierarchy, lower-archy, and the middle-archy, can assault children.

It says we put an awful lot of faith in people and because of that, we tend to elevate the diabolically clever or the totalitarian niceness cons. Take your pick. Both are long con disasters. In our search for “great leaders” we forget to be our own leader— as was always intended by our Lord.

Lydia wrote:

It says we put an awful lot of faith in people and because of that, we tend to elevate the diabolically clever or the totalitarian niceness cons.

Beware. There may be a diabolically clever and totalitarian nice guy pastoring a church near you!

Consider how far deception might reach if not detected/discerned – see my comment at 08:56 AM this morning.

Lydia wrote:

Pressler/Hybels … Legacy is everything

Then they should have lived with their final chapters in mind. What a waste. History will wad up the resumes of their lives and toss them in the round file. The “yeah buts” are storming cyberspace in their defense, citing all their great achievements, but it’s all for nought when you consider their double-lives while stacking up the positives. One of Hybels’ supporters said he was the greatest Christian of the last two centuries – I personally know an obscure humble servant of the Lord at a rural church who may very well be. One of Pressler’s supporters defended his perversion saying his leadership during the Conservative Resurgence was worth it. Worth what?! I just don’t think that is how God is looking at things.

@ Max:
The irony is that before the internet it was a lot easier to secure such a legacy. I think what shocks me is how little fear there is in understanding that someday all things will be known. they never really believed what they taught.

@ Lea:
Drinkinfg the cool aid is a great metaphor for this situation..

Max wrote:

History will wad up the resumes of their lives and toss them in the round file.

I wonder if some great [sic] leaders will someday wish it were only history tossing their resumés in the round file.

Your mention of the genuinely great, but quietly anonymous, believer in a rural church reminds me of a comment attributed to Heidi Baker. According thereto, someone asked her who was the greatest believer she’d ever met. She replied: “You haven’t met her; she’s dying in a hospital in Mozambique”.

Max wrote:

The “yeah buts” are storming cyberspace in their defense, citing all their great achievements, but it’s all for nought when you consider their double-lives while stacking up the positives.

“Yeah, but the Fuehrer created the Autobahn!”

Max wrote:

One of Pressler’s supporters defended his perversion saying his leadership during the Conservative Resurgence was worth it. Worth what?!

WINNING.

Lea wrote:

Lydia. wrote:
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I might agree with you if I had a clue about Game of Thrones.

Chaos…is a ladder.

Don’t forget “He would burn the whole world if it meant he could be King over the ashes.” — Lord Varis

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

You can NEVER have only one Coup. Because that first Coup sets the precedent

That’s one of the big Questions that Game of Thrones asks. Is it worth it to kill the king? Is the chaos that ensues worth it. It’s the exact question we have to ask about the Iraq War.

I think the other question it asks is what is the price of honor, but that doesn’t apply to this situation as much.

Stuck at the signal just E of Larbert, waiting for the southbound train to go through the junction. It’s late (we’re certainly not early).

JYJames wrote:

Women can’t preach, but the hierarchy, lower-archy, and the middle-archy, can assault children.

Rank Hath Its Privileges, and Woman Must Submit.

Lydia wrote:

Having correct Doctrine?

I was going to make a joke about schindler not having the right doctrine, but yeah. I’m one who doesn’t care too much about doctrine so long as it’s in the right ballpark and not actively harmful (comp nonsense for instance). I think actions/real care are much more important.

Don’t lose the plot. Exactly. Paul even spells it out…if there is no love in what you’re doing it’s worthless. They need to drill that into these seminary idiots heads…

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

Stuck at the signal just E of Larbert,

Near Bonnybridge Golf Course?

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

“Yeah, but the Fuehrer created the Autobahn!”

“And had the idea for Volkswagen. A car for every citizen.”

(Like… over 6 million Jews+ later, guess what – someone would eventually have come up with the ideas for the Autobahn and the Volkswagen. Hitler’s legacy was carnage. Period. These church scoundrels have only the legacies of their cons and the damages done to innocents via their evil in sheep’s clothing.)

Lea wrote:

I was going to make a joke about schindler not having the right doctrine, but yeah. I’m one who doesn’t care too much about doctrine so long as it’s in the right ballpark and not actively harmful…

I’ve seen so many

 selfless, decent who are patient, kind, keep no record of wrongs, hope, believe and endure all things, and who would lay down their lives for another, who have technically incorrect doctrine and
 self-important, arrogant, judgemental people whose correct doctrine fills them with pride, empties them utterly of compassion and love (except love of fame, money and glory), and motivates them to shun their fellow human beings with zeal and relish

that I regard doctrine as little more than idle intellectual curiosity. Ravening wolves are every bit as likely to peddle accurate doctrine as false. The mere fact that a person believes that God sent his Sonjesus to dieonthecross for yoursin means nothing – nothing – regarding whether that person actually loves or not.

But hey; take no notice of me. I’m just a liberal agnostic.

@ Nick Bulbeck:

P.S. I got home eventually, but the train was delayed by over 20 minutes by a bizarre series of bothers.

@ Ken P.:

Quite some distance fae Prestwick…

@ Daisy:

Lea wrote:

Lydia wrote:

I am not about forcing people to change or telling them what kind of a church they are allowed to go to. But I’ve always wondered why people (women) so willingly fell for the comp focus as the “Gospel”.

I think you have a lot of people who grow up in it and it take a while to say ‘wait a minute’. Stronger question is why adults go along.

I think so many people are scared of being ‘liberal’ they can’t think outside of their denominational box.

I think the reasons Lydia mentions are right, and, in my experience, having been in cultish & extremely patriarchal Reformed (not YRR, but old school Reformed) churches for my adult life, there are a number of factors. The biggest one, I think, though, is how trapped a woman is when her male “head” -father or husband- joins the abusive patriarchy. Ipso facto, you can’t leave. It’s contumacy.

FW Rez wrote:

Max wrote:

it has underpinned the trend toward Calvinism in the denomination.

Max: Do you see a relationship between Authoritarianism and Calvinism? I agree with you that Calvinism has increased under BFM2K. I also think that BFM2K has contributed a lot to a general rise in Authoritarianism, making the SBC more palatable to Fundamentalists of all ilks. I’m just not sure of the correlation between the two. Honest question. I always respect your opinion.

Not Max, but if you read Calvin and the Reformers, they absolutely preach authoritarianism, both ecclesiastical and familial (because the family reflects the church which reflects the Godhead. An authoritarian pyramid.)
I personally, experientially or theorically based on my reading, cannot reconcile Calvinist and Reformed doctrine with a non-abusive system. I can’t speak to your questions about New Calvinism within the SBC – I only learned of it from reading this blog.

@ Ricco:
I have always operated on the basis that in Christianity the means we use is important while we leave the ends with The Lord.

Lydia wrote:

Exactly. But that begs the question; what exactly are we measuring?

I say deeds. Others will insist that the tape measure is calibrated in beliefs passed on to others to the tune of:
How many have you led to Christ?

Lea wrote:

I was going to make a joke about schindler not having the right doctrine, but yeah. I’m one who doesn’t care too much about doctrine so long as it’s in the right ballpark and not actively harmful (comp nonsense for instance). I think actions/real care are much more important.

As the old saying goes, the proof is in the pudding; no matter how loudly some will claim that the pudding is not relevant, only the recipe.

FW Rez wrote:

Do you see a relationship between Authoritarianism and Calvinism?

Within SBC, certainly! The New Calvinist movement has produced a new generation of authoritarian-wannabe young reformers who are either planting new churches or taking over non-Calvinist churches via stealth and deception. They sincerely believe that Calvinism = Gospel and are passionate about their cause. These young men have been fed a steady diet of complementarianism, elder-rule church governance, and an unbalanced form of church discipline by New Calvinist icons (Piper, Mohler, Dever, etc.). They are determined to restore the “right” gospel to the church and feel they must exert the long arm of the law to do so … authoritarianism is naturally the result.

@ at least I’m sort of out:

Thanks for the response. I’ve never read any of the primary works defining “Reformed” so it is helpful to understand that the position is authoritarian in nature.

JDV wrote:

“A Bizarre Series of Bothers” sounds like a worthy successor to Keeping Up Appearances.

I first read it as “Brothers” which would make it a good successor to Allo, Allo!

@ Muff Potter:
“I say deeds. Others will insist that the tape measure is calibrated in beliefs passed on to others to the tune of:
How many have you led to Christ?”

That is where I am, for the most part. And it causes many heads to explode so I just keep it to myself except for places where it’s ok to discuss.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

that I regard doctrine as little more than idle intellectual curiosity. Ravening wolves are every bit as likely to peddle accurate doctrine as false. The mere fact that a person believes that God sent his Sonjesus to dieonthecross for yoursin means nothing – nothing – regarding whether that person actually loves or not.

idle intellectual curiosity. That’s how I see so much of it too. Dismissing people because their ‘doctrine’ is not right also seems incredibly foolish.

Muff Potter wrote:

As the old saying goes, the proof is in the pudding; no matter how loudly some will claim that the pudding is not relevant, only the recipe.

My mind is going in all sort of directions on this analogy….

The thing is, you can get to the ‘pudding’ of human kindness as it were without any recipe but what’s in us as humans.

And you can follow a recipe exactly and still have a bad outcome, because cooking is temperamental. Hm.

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

Lea wrote:

Yes, I noticed. Of course, that’s only where race is concerned. Women still don’t matter.

Subjugation of and control over women is the last bastion of white male superiority.

Well there are still children. I suspect that the teens in the Bible studies were carefully taught unquestioning obedience to their elders within the community thus making them easy prey for some of those elders even for some time after the teens cease to be legally children.

Lydia wrote:

I hesitate to mention “love” because these days it is often practiced totalitarian niceness. Definitions for Christian “love” are all over the place.

Many have redefined ‘love’ in dumb ways like ‘tell my wife what to do, so she’ll be ‘sanctified’, or ‘tell everybody in church what to do’, etc.

In the context of the fruits of the spirit it seems more clear, because in addition to love you have joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.

Telling them this stuff won’t fix them, though. Because they need to have some sort of caring coming from inside. A list of rules/behaviors can be good (manners, for instance) but will never work on someone’s heart.

@ Lea:

Muff Potter wrote: “As the old saying goes, the proof is in the pudding; no matter how loudly some will claim that the pudding is not relevant, only the recipe.”

Leah wrote: “My mind is going in all sort of directions on this analogy….

The thing is, you can get to the ‘pudding’ of human kindness as it were without any recipe but what’s in us as humans.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

yes, many directions with the kitchen/food analogy. like, too many cooks spoil the soup.

or, velveeta vs stilton where the processing & treatments of information is concerned. less processing, & the absence of extra & synthetic ingredients is what yields healthy, high quality, good-tasting.

elastigirl wrote:

yes, many directions with the kitchen/food analogy. like, too many cooks spoil the soup.

Yes!

Maybe cooking is the perfect analogy because it is so imperfect, and there are so many factors, techniques, experience, ingredients that make a recipe turn out right. And two people make the same thing, and it will be completely different. Recipes are just a direction really…

Erp wrote:

I suspect that the teens in the Bible studies were carefully taught unquestioning obedience to their elders within the community thus making them easy prey for some of those elders even for some time after the teens cease to be legally children.

FEATURE, NOT BUG.

Lea wrote:

idle intellectual curiosity. That’s how I see so much of it too.

Whether twirling pens or not, making everything into an abstract intellectual exercise can destroy what humanity you have.
“A Million Deaths is only a Statistic.”
“Only a Three-point-Seven Gigadeath situation. Insignificant.” (smug smile) “Have A Nice Day.”

Dismissing people because their ‘doctrine’ is not right also seems incredibly foolish.

No different than the classic Communists with their “Purity of Ideology”.

JDV wrote:

We can’t pass the buck on accountability and figure eyethings fine just because so and so seems like a good guy or gal and seems to get you and/or has some other reason(s) to have our respect or even sympathy in some cases. It’s like the old song Smiling Faces.

A song warning about Deceit and Manipulation — Let Him Who Has Ears to Hear, Hear:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3wfsbTvk_s

Lydia wrote:

@ JDV:
Add to that– most Christians spend their lives looking for good (godly?) leaders.

The spillover of which explains a lot of the Christian vote in 2016.

Insanity is doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result.

Remember: It’s always the OTHER Guy who’s Insane.
You’re always the Rational and Reasonable (and Righteous) One.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

That’s because it strikes me as a meaningless gesture of Smug Superiority.

That was certainly how I took it.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

From what I’ve seen of Debaters, there is no Truth, there is no Lie, there is Only WINNING The Debate.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say there is no ‘lie’ in debate, but it is not set up to determine truth. It is set up to structure your arguments, use evidence, etc. It is actually a fantastic way to learn a topic, as you have to learn the whole topic. The position you take changes every time you debate.

But your skill at debating has little to nothing to do with what is true, or right. You cannot say ‘that person is a great at rhetoric and thus they are correct’. That is a useful thing to realize.

Muff Potter wrote:

I say deeds. Others will insist that the tape measure is calibrated in beliefs passed on to others to the tune of:
How many have you led to Christ?

If the standard is going to be how many people have you lead to Christ, like many evangelicals insist, then shouldn’t we balance that number against how many people you have driven away from the church, screaming in horror, by your spiritual abuse, mean-spiritedness, and hatred. Many of these people who are out there talking about “winning souls for Christ” would have a number way below zero.

The interesting thing about Calvinism is, I think it gives an out for what I mentioned above. People who don’t believe were reprobate anyway, so it couldn’t have been anything you did that made them not want to be a part of your church, it was their total depravity. That is very convenient out that allows you to treat outsiders however you want.

I think the standard by which we are “judged” (I honestly have no clue what that means) will be how we treat others, particularly those who have nothing to offer us.

@ elastigirl:
@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
“I was a seminary professor in Texas for a number of years. A student told me about a young man who had experienced similar behavior from Pressler … told a Baptist leader about this incident, and got a response that the cause of biblical inerrancy was so important that he wouldn’t jeopardize the conservative resurgence.”
(comment by “Kent”, The Texas Monitor, https://texasmonitor.org/paul-pressler-jared-woodfill-defamation-suit/comment-page-1/#comments)

Lea wrote:

At the same time, this obnoxious soul winning does not seem to be common in my presby denom. That is a truly evangelical thing.

Maybe it’s a fusion of two or three separate “church traditions” — Revivalism, Fundamentalism, and Calvinism — that’s causing this. Like the corporate cultures of Trump Tower and the Executive Branch, they do not mix well.

Ricco wrote:

To me, the problem is righteous certainty. Have whatever doctrine you want, just be willing to say “I could be wrong.” I know I run down Calvinism a lot, but I have no problem with humble Calvinists who say, “I believe I’m right, but I could be wrong.”

Wonderfully put, Ricco, on all counts.

@ Lea:
Self-control is very rarely mentioned. 🙁

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Totally disagree. I think many threw that out the window after the late 90’s. I think it was about something else entirely. Free speech?

Susanna wrote:

No one wants to be seen as the source of disunity, which was loudly preached at my former church.

The irony is that the church you describe was, presumably, entirely separate from the rest of the church (whether of other denominations or the vanity projects of other self-appointed leaders) in the area. And if anyone had suggested that everyone abandon their differences and form one local church, to display unity… ROFL.

@ mot:
The 30,000 people who showed up at the conventions back then. That doesn’t mean it was the right decision. That doesn’t mean there weren’t political strategies. That doesn’t mean there weren’t bad people on both sides.

There was no vote to go calvinist.

Susanna wrote:

Sadly, I have to disagree. They have checked their brains at the door and are embracing everything. No one wants to be seen as the source of disunity, which was loudly preached at my former church.

It’s another one of those things that is parroted to the followers that they don’t think about, as the Gospel Coalition are the kings of disunity in the church. Their covenants and their leaders have made it clear that you can only have unity if you are submitted to them, because of course, they have the only true Gospel™.

Lydia wrote:

@ mot:
The 30,000 people who showed up at the conventions back then. That doesn’t mean it was the right decision. That doesn’t mean there weren’t political strategies. That doesn’t mean there weren’t bad people on both sides.

There was no vote to go calvinist.

I was at that convention and I still don’t think most of those people had any idea what they were truly voting for. Many seemed to think it was more political than theological.

Lydia wrote:

There was no vote to go calvinist.

Exactly. Millions of non-Calvinist Southern Baptists, the majority belief and practice for 150 years, had zero say in the matter. There was no resolution raised on the convention floor, no ballot circulated to 45,000 SBC churches, no letter mailed to members from SBC headquarters. The largest non-Calvinist denomination in America is trending toward Calvinism through stealth and deception by a handful of New Calvinists intent on taking the denomination back to its reformed roots … even though the tree doesn’t want to go there.

Considering the religious liberty section, that seems rather antithetical to New Cal theology. I wonder if they will aim to change that?

ishy wrote:

I just read over it again and noticed the change in wording about Christ, which was “The criterion by which the Bible is to be interpreted is Jesus Christ” to “All Scripture is a testimony to Christ, who is Himself the focus of divine revelation.”

This change in the 2000 revision of the Baptist Faith and Message essentially deleted a Christocentric criterion for interpretation of Scripture.

ishy wrote:

Doesn’t the second sound very New Cal vague?

Indeed. Fits right into the New Calvinist ESS doctrine. The new reformers are treading on dangerous ground by subordinating Jesus!

Max wrote:

Indeed. Fits right into the New Calvinist ESS doctrine. The new reformers are treading on dangerous ground by subordinating Jesus!

I do remember there being a good bit of controversy over that part, but I don’t think anyone had any idea of how it would be later interpreted.

Just another giant neon sign pointed at how deceptive Mohler and friends were and are. They clearly knew why they were changing it way back then. I mean, they didn’t really go big with ESS until 2016-2017.

@ ishy:
Good points. That thing you said about using Jesus to interpret all scripture was very interesting. I’ve come, through a long winding process, to the perspective that this is the way we should read scripture. It is amazing that a denomination would throw that away. I think all scripture, from Genesis to Psalms to Paul to Revelation, should be read through the person of Jesus Christ.

Ricco wrote:

@ ishy:
Good points. That thing you said about using Jesus to interpret all scripture was very interesting. I’ve come, through a long winding process, to the perspective that this is the way we should read scripture. It is amazing that a denomination would throw that away. I think all scripture, from Genesis to Psalms to Paul to Revelation, should be read through the person of Jesus Christ.

Agreed. There is a scarlet thread woven throughout the whole of Scripture. The SBC denomination didn’t throw the Christocentric interpretation of Scripture away … Al Mohler and his band of New Calvinists did. How the largest non-Calvinist denomination in America let him get away with it is beyond me! Millions of Southern Baptists have been uninformed, misinformed, or willingly ignorant about Calvinization of their denomination.

@ ishy:
It’s all about power.

Lydia wrote:

My cousins came home from the mission field after 18 yrs when they were required to sign the bfm2000.

My cousin and family came home as well from South Africa after nearly 20 years there. They would not sign BFM2000. Southern Baptists have surrendered their denominational gift of evangelism to all nations, tribes and tongues, IMO … thanks to the New Calvinist takeover.

Just realized Mohler must view it as a covenant. And by being Southern Baptist, you must accept the covenant. Just pretend that word “autonomous” is not still there, just like Jesus’ life and ministry isn’t really in the Bible…

@ ishy:
I once heard a megachurch pastor tell the audience to “trust positive intentions”. That just went right through me. How in the world can 20 thou people know if his intentions are positive? It’s creepy how they manipulate.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

The irony is that the church you describe was, presumably, entirely separate from the rest of the church

Absolutely ironic! It is a completely unaffiliated church and the pastor has no oversight that I’m aware of other than his board of yes men. He was ordained as a PCA pastor but it is not a PCA church.

Lydia wrote:

@ Muff Potter:
“I say deeds. Others will insist that the tape measure is calibrated in beliefs passed on to others to the tune of:
How many have you led to Christ?”

That is where I am, for the most part. And it causes many heads to explode so I just keep it to myself except for places where it’s ok to discuss.

Any time I see this question asked the following verse comes to mind:

1 Corinthians 3:6
I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth.

Lydia wrote:

They offered to sign their Bible but that wasn’t good enough.

Well, that should have been enough! Those missionaries had already professed their commitment to Southern Baptist belief and practice outlined in the 1963 version of the Baptist Faith & Message when they signed on. There were those on the foreign mission field who felt that the BFM2000 trended toward creedalism – Baptists have not historically been folks who put their faith in creeds written by mere men … and, of course, many could see the trend toward Calvinism in the revision and how that might impact their ministries on foreign fields. Over 1,000 who signed BFM2000 to stay on the field were forced to come home anyway under New Calvinist David Platt’s leadership of the International Mission Board, citing a funding shortage. But during the same time, New Calvinist Kevin Ezell (Home Mission Board) spent $60 million per year to plant 1,000 new churches in North America (led primarily by YRR pastors). Priorities?

Law Prof wrote:

mot wrote:

Just out of curiosity, are you Jewish? I see “mot”, I think “member of the tribe”.

No.

mot wrote:

The Women’s Missionary Union carried the SBC for many years in many ways. Now I hear little to nothing about the WMU.

May be another casualty of SBC’s New Calvinist movement. Some traditional SBC churches still have WMU groups, but none of the SBC-YRR church plants in my area have them.