Rachel Denhollander Calls Out Sovereign Grace Ministries for Sex Abuse Coverup on The Story with Fox News’ Martha MacCallum — 69 Comments
Go Rachael!
“What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the inner rooms will be shouted from the rooftops.”
Thanks for this post, Dee.
Can a clear conscience sanction sexual predator Nassar – no, and he is now incarcerated, for life. To some degree, enablers are also being considered as some have lost their jobs and positions, etc.
Then, as Denhollander has concisely stated, predation in some churches is also not OK, and the subsequent actions of all those associated have no moral compass, no business as church leadership. The $$$ financial supporters and fans should also consider their enabling involvements and support of predation in their churches.
Wow, that was brilliant. I pray it leads to immense change in the church.
I don’t understand why this is not getting more media attention in general. Is it #metoo fatigue?
It’s Spotlight all over again.
And that’s a good thing.
I don’t understand why this is not getting more media attention in general. Is it #metoo fatigue?
I think part of it might be because Protestant denominations are smaller than, say, the Catholic church. Because the Catholic church is so big, it’s more interesting for the media to cover, and coverage results in more ratings because people have actually heard of the Catholic church. Most normal folk haven’t heard of SGC, so it’s not going to give as much ratings. Sad but true.
I think for getting more coverage, Rachel should use what media time she gets calling out the Mahaney supporters in the SBC etc., because more people have heard of the SBC than SGC. Then more coverage might happen. Just my 2 cents.
I really do wish journalists would cover scandals like this more often. The public court of appeal is the only one left when the justice system fails. Good on Rachel for what she’s doing. She’s like a pit bull and won’t let go!
I don’t understand why this is not getting more media attention in general. Is it #metoo fatigue?
Actually, it is an old story fatigue. Having recently spent some time in dialogue with some national writers, I learned that SGM is an *old story.*
I see that even is such a sad situation God has a sense of humor in reprimanding His people….Young cute articulate woman standing toe to toe with the big boys of male dominance theology, correcting and calling to account their misguided deeds. GO!! Deborah of this age!
I do think that’s Sandra Smith not Martha mccalum. But YES this is not going away! Sins are like crabgrass….you ignore them and then their little offshoots keep popping up all over the place!
That’s a sad reality. If looks like there is more money to be made for the gospel glitterati in supporting that crowd than there is for the the media in exposing them. The only way to get the media interesting is to make it profitable for them?
Actually, it is an old story fatigue. Having recently spent some time in dialogue with some national writers, I learned that SGM is an *old story.*
I think clockwork angel also has a point. In our neck of the woods no one has heard of sgc/sgm. So it doesn’t show on any local or even national (Canadian) news feeds.
Actually, it is an old story fatigue. Having recently spent some time in dialogue with some national writers, I learned that SGM is an *old story.*
Good news is that God has no fatigue. He doesn’t need the media or you or me. He may choose to use the media, or you, or me to do what He wishes. And it seldom seems this way to me, but His timing is perfect, as is His plan. I don’t know what it is. But I do know He cares for each and every one of us. And His heart is toward to broken reed.
That is where my comfort comes from when discouragement threatens. He cares for justice.
Very unfortunate. It’s the enabling church folks that are dragging their feet, or their lagging conscience.
We need men showing the character, concern and intergrity Rachael consistently shows. May her voice be heard. Rachael, please DO NOt sit down and shut up. The church needs to hear your voice.
Actually, it is an old story fatigue. Having recently spent some time in dialogue with some national writers, I learned that SGM is an *old story.*
Good news is that God has no fatigue. He doesn’t need the media or you or me. He may choose to use the media, or you, or me to do what He wishes. And it seldom seems this way to me, but His timing is perfect, as is His plan. I don’t know what it is. But I do know He cares for each and every one of us. And His heart is toward to broken reed.
That is where my comfort comes from when discouragement threatens. He cares for justice.
Amen.
On a sidenote, regardless of one’s opinions on the POTUS, he knows how to manipulate that.. the so called “news cycle”. He’s been in the news (often for pointless reasons) since I was a little kid. It might be a good skill to learn, for better purposes.
With all of Dever’s/9Marks aggressive marketing into SBC churches (and beyond) of heavy-handed, authoritarian church discipline, how is it that CJ Mahaney, SUPPORTED by Dever, waltzes out of very bad leadership of one church, right into leadership of another church, with NO accountability or discipline for the trail of victim horror left behind? What happened to…”what’s good for the goose is good for the gander?”
With all of Dever’s/9Marks aggressive marketing into SBC churches (and beyond) of heavy-handed, authoritarian church discipline, how is it that CJ Mahaney, SUPPORTED by Dever, waltzes out of very bad leadership of one church, right into leadership of another church, with NO accountability or discipline for the trail of victim horror left behind? What happened to…”what’s good for the goose is good for the gander?”
Accountability is too often reserved for the paying people.
You go Rachael,
You are bringing to light what male church leaders should have done years ago. I do believe that Rachael might be able to bring more attention to this issue because she is in the spotlight now and she is well spoken, attractive and knowledgeable.
Pretty frustrating, first there is no reporting because the story is unproven and then when proof is obtained there is no report because the story is old.
Actually, it is an old story fatigue. Having recently spent some time in dialogue with some national writers, I learned that SGM is an *old story.*
Good news is that God has no fatigue. He doesn’t need the media or you or me. He may choose to use the media, or you, or me to do what He wishes. And it seldom seems this way to me, but His timing is perfect, as is His plan. I don’t know what it is. But I do know He cares for each and every one of us. And His heart is toward to broken reed.
That is where my comfort comes from when discouragement threatens. He cares for justice.
You are correct that there is no fatigue with God. His justice will prevail. There are so many stories coming out now that it is easy to confuse the details. For some, these things become less shocking as they become accustomed to hearing about it. For every single victim involved, it is just as bad as ever it was. This is one fight that should never be given up.
The fact that she is speaking out may still encourage others. Victims will be helped to speak out. Bystanders may make a choice to support victims. Churches may be called to be much more careful with back ground checks, etc. So whether Mahaney and his ilk are held accountable or not I believe that the culture within churches will no longer be able to remain ignorant of these crimes. Rachel has been pivotal. Jules has been pivotal. These are brave women! I thank God that the dark veil has been lifted so that survivors can speak.
there is no reporting because the story is unproven and then when proof is obtained there is no report because the story is old.
The World doesn’t care what goes on in the church.
The church itself doesn’t care either. Asleep on the job. Apathy. Not on their agenda.
Hence, TWW started by Dee and Deb, as they so state – to give a voice.
Thankfully Fox News will at least reach the target audience of conservative church goers, who might take heed. That’s the first thing that matters. Not the world.
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Mark Dever
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“Better that many guilty persons escape unpunished than one innocent person should be punished. ‘The reason is, because it’s of more importance to community, that innocence should be protected, than it is, that guilt should be punished.’” David McCullough, John Adams, 68.
Really, Dever? Really? And he’s leading the charge for the evangelical, “Healthy Church?”
Really, Dever? Really? And he’s leading the charge for the evangelical, “Healthy Church?”
A basic tenet of New Cal theology is absolute authoritarian leadership, which they believe is the only way to have a healthy church. When Dever and friends talk about “healthy churches”, they are saying “obedient churches”. They are not talking about healthy members, as they seem to believe that everyone continues to be corrupt after being elected.
This stems from what I believe is the main tenet of New Cal theology, that the Elect are chosen only from their churches. New Calvinist preaching is the only way by which someone is saved. Covenants are used as legal contracts to keep people from leaving. If someone leaves their church for a church outside their circle, they declare that person ex-communicated and unable to be elected. Forcing members to remain in their church gives them a higher chance to be elected because they continue to hear “proper” preaching.
If you look at the ESS theology, they compare men as leaders of their house to God the Father. God cannot be questioned as leader. They take that further to mean that pastors/elders should have unquestioned authority and the non-leaders are incapable of knowing God’s will even over fathers of each household, just as women are “deceived” and can’t be trusted to lead. Their gender roles system doesn’t just extend to households, but is the foundation for how they believe churches should be organized, and Dever is at the center of pushing that system.
I do believe that most of their theology stems from narcissistic personalities who cannot imagine a world where they are not in charge. Most of them appointed themselves to leadership (Mahaney is a great example of that). I’m pretty sure there’s also some wolves in the mix who are knowingly leading people astray because they get immense power and monetary gain from it. So I don’t thing logic will make sense of their theology.
Really, Dever? Really? And he’s leading the charge for the evangelical, “Healthy Church?”
A basic tenet of New Cal theology is absolute authoritarian leadership, which they believe is the only way to have a healthy church. When Dever and friends talk about “healthy churches”, they are saying “obedient churches”. They are not talking about healthy members, as they seem to believe that everyone continues to be corrupt after being elected.
This stems from what I believe is the main tenet of New Cal theology, that the Elect are chosen only from their churches. New Calvinist preaching is the only way by which someone is saved. Covenants are used as legal contracts to keep people from leaving. If someone leaves their church for a church outside their circle, they declare that person ex-communicated and unable to be elected. Forcing members to remain in their church gives them a higher chance to be elected because they continue to hear “proper” preaching.
If you look at the ESS theology, they compare men as leaders of their house to God the Father. God cannot be questioned as leader. They take that further to mean that pastors/elders should have unquestioned authority and the non-leaders are incapable of knowing God’s will even over fathers of each household, just as women are “deceived” and can’t be trusted to lead. Their gender roles system doesn’t just extend to households, but is the foundation for how they believe churches should be organized, and Dever is at the center of pushing that system.
I do believe that most of their theology stems from narcissistic personalities who cannot imagine a world where they are not in charge. Most of them appointed themselves to leadership (Mahaney is a great example of that). I’m pretty sure there’s also some wolves in the mix who are knowingly leading people astray because they get immense power and monetary gain from it. So I don’t thing logic will make sense of their theology.
I’m not a Protestant, but occasionally, I liked RC Sproul, and I remember him distinctly saying he didn’t know who was “elected” or not. Which should be obvious anyways, but whatever. He was humble enough to say it.
I’m not a Protestant, but occasionally, I liked RC Sproul, and I remember him distinctly saying he didn’t know who was “elected” or not. Which should be obvious anyways, but whatever. He was humble enough to say it.
Sadly, yes. And this is why there has been so much corruption in their churches. Probably 60% of the posts on TWW have been about stuff like this.
Sproul seemed to me like he got worse as this movement grew, but that was true for a lot of these guys.
Oh, I should add that none of them admit they know who is elected or if they themselves are elected. But attending their churches and hearing their preaching is the only way to be elected.
Conversely, not doing that means you cannot be elected. So they do claim some special knowledge of who will not be part of the elect.
I believe it is a form of gnosticism and it goes directly against certain Scriptures, but they are real big on ignoring Bible verses that don’t support their theology. They just pretend those verses don’t exist, and if you bring them up, they almost always change the subject either completely or by quoting one of their big theologians on something that isn’t really related. Trying to argue with most of them usually just ends in frustration.
Oh, I should add that none of them admit they know who is elected or if they themselves are elected. But attending their churches and hearing their preaching is the only way to be elected.
Conversely, not doing that means you cannot be elected. So they do claim some special knowledge of who will not be part of the elect.
I believe it is a form of gnosticism and it goes directly against certain Scriptures, but they are real big on ignoring Bible verses that don’t support their theology. They just pretend those verses don’t exist, and if you bring them up, they almost always change the subject either completely or by quoting one of their big theologians on something that isn’t really related. Trying to argue with most of them usually just ends in frustration.
I can see that (gnosticism).. maybe not in direct belief, but in the special club/elitist sense. I believe the orthodox hold on to ancient faith more than others, but contrary to this pattern, they’re not so brutal about it. A popular orthodox saying is “We don’t know what the Holy Spirit is doing outside the church, but we do know he is in ours.”
On a sidenote, the rise in popularity of real gnosticism kind of makes me laugh. I think some people do it out of rebellion or spite (especially feminist scholars like Elaine Pagels). Yet the whole system was modeled after Pythagoras, and came from a slave based society. I think they’re attracted to the idea that Mary Magdelene in some gnostic gospels is this woman Jesus takes to the side, to give her special teachings away from the Apostles. And they think that’s women empowerment.. But they miss the forest for the trees. It’s elitism. Forget the gender difference.
Oh, I should add that none of them admit they know who is elected or if they themselves are elected. But attending their churches and hearing their preaching is the only way to be elected.
Conversely, not doing that means you cannot be elected. So they do claim some special knowledge of who will not be part of the elect.
I figure they’re always trying to PROVE to themselves that They Are REALLY of the Elect. (Since Calvin wrote Infallibly and Inerrantly of a “false Election” of the Reprobate, you can NEVER be sure of your Predestined Fate.)
Once this PROOF of Election was “material blessings”, i.e. Getting Rich.
Now it’s Perfectly-Parsed, Utterly Correct, Truly REFORMED Theology. (And fame among the Reformed.)
And One-Upmanship applies to both.
I’d say the only reason a lot of the so called “material blessings” came upon the Protestant world is that they became usurers.
I’d say the only reason a lot of the so called “material blessings” came upon the Protestant world is that they became usurers.
Use Proper Code Words: Not “Usury” (loansharking), “High Finance” (like what started Sears & Roebucks’ death spiral).
Problem is, moneylending is key to a post-Industrial Revolution economy, yet compounding interest on the loaned money also creates lifetime Serfs who can never pay off the ever-compounding debt to Milord. (Feature, not bug, for the Financial Elect.) Yet even a moneylender is worth his wages; the only compromise system I like is NOT ever-compounding interest, but a flat fee (percentage of the principal) for use of the lender’s money.
A basic tenet of New Cal theology is absolute authoritarian leadership, which they believe is the only way to have a healthy church.
A theology very appealing to the Kim Jong Uns and Lord Voldemorts to whom “there is only POWER”.
Back to the original subject:
Rachael Denhollander is continuing her attack on the SGM Establishment, not giving them time to regroup and effectively counterattack. She may be the one to finally take them down.
I’d say the only reason a lot of the so called “material blessings” came upon the Protestant world is that they became usurers.
Use Proper Code Words: Not “Usury” (loansharking), “High Finance” (like what started Sears & Roebucks’ death spiral).
Problem is, moneylending is key to a post-Industrial Revolution economy, yet compounding interest on the loaned money also creates lifetime Serfs who can never pay off the ever-compounding debt to Milord. (Feature, not bug, for the Financial Elect.) Yet even a moneylender is worth his wages; the only compromise system I like is NOT ever-compounding interest, but a flat fee (percentage of the principal) for use of the lender’s money.
Maybe you’re right. I don’t know much about finance tbh (or why this was necessary for Industrial age society?). I just know it’s forbidden.
As much as the European Jews got associated with moneylending, the Torah originally states usury is only forbidden to fellow Jews. They know themselves it was bad..that’s why they didn’t do it to each other. But Christians were called to something better than merely be fair to one’s countrymen. We’re not to see people as insiders or outsiders in this.
“Who is my neighbor?” the clever lawyer asked Jesus. And Jesus preceded to tell him the famous parable of the Good Samaritan. “Go and do likewise.” Jesus message turned the lawyer’s question on it’s head. That we shouldn’t ask “Who is my neighbor?” but “YOU be the neighbor. YOU take the initiative.” And I say this applies to usury too.. since Jesus and the lawyer were basically summing up the point of the Torah.
Anyways, apparently it was Calvin who let loose the teachings on usury. “Sola Scriptura”? Yeah right. What he did was one up even the Shylock of Shakespeare. For when Jews only did it to outsiders, the Western Christian world became predators on their own family.
Heh.. sorry for the rant and going off topic again. If you want, just tell me why the industrial age needed this. I’d honestly like to know, and try not to reply/spend more time on the subject beyond that.
Heh.. sorry for the rant and going off topic again. If you want, just tell me why the industrial age needed this. I’d honestly like to know, and try not to reply/spend more time on the subject beyond that.
Not 100% sure myself, but it probably had to do with the increasing abstraction of money over time. Here’s how I understand it, from what I remember about college economics:
Before the Industrial Revolution, the measure of wealth was arable Land (and the slaves/serfs/peasants to work it). That’s why its still called “Real Property”. Money didn’t enter into the picture, except for commoner merchants.
As mercantile economies and trade gained prominence after the Middle Ages and Age of Exploration/Colonization, the measure of wealth transitioned to money. Bankers/financiers/moneylenders began to gain prominence to raise money for all this, and wealth began to become more abstract; loans and paybacks, credit and debit, instead of gold in your strongbox under your bed. This had a positive aspect of freeing up more money into circulation, making wealth possible for more and more people.
The Industrial Revolution accelerated this process, as industrialization required more and more ready sources of investment cash. (It may be that to make the transition from land-based agricultural to industrial economy, you need some concentration of “new money” wealth willing to take a chance.) Land-rich but cash-poor nobles had to adapt, often making political marriages into the new “merchant nobility”.
The downside of this was that money and wealth became more and more abstract. Instead of gold reserves, countries now back their currency with the relative strength of their economies and fluctuating exchange rates.
And now with the Industrial-to-Information economy transition, things have become even more abstract with Bitcoin and other virtual cryptocurrencies. With more abstraction comes less stability, and I don’t know the optimum balance point between the two (but people are people, and we’ll probably overshoot it and get our heads handed to us a couple times before we find the balance).
I’d say the only reason a lot of the so called “material blessings” came upon the Protestant world is that they became usurers.
You can’t blame that one on just Protestants. Jews were in on that one too.
Also, how would you define “usury”. If you define it as charging interest at all, I would say your definition is off. The dictionary definition is charging unreasonable or illegal interest rates. Illegal is easy to define. Unreasonable, not so much.
Also, how would you define “usury”. If you define it as charging interest at all, I would say your definition is off. The dictionary definition is charging unreasonable or illegal interest rates. Illegal is easy to define. Unreasonable, not so much.
Problem is, compounding interest (such as we have today) leads to debt slavery like Russian serfs or Mexican peons.
Yet the lenders have to have some return from risking their money out on loan. That’s why I tend towards the compromise of charging a flat fee for use of the money (such as a promissory note) which does NOT grow without limit for all eternity.
I’d say the only reason a lot of the so called “material blessings” came upon the Protestant world is that they became usurers.
You can’t blame that one on just Protestants. Jews were in on that one too.
Also, how would you define “usury”. If you define it as charging interest at all, I would say your definition is off. The dictionary definition is charging unreasonable or illegal interest rates. Illegal is easy to define. Unreasonable, not so much.
I explained how Jews were in on it. They still kept their law, because the law says you can do it to outsiders. To be blunt about it, they have a lot of hate and exclusivity and have no qualms about usury on the Gentiles. And as they don’t believe in their own Messiah and the brotherhood of humankind, they stick to the letter of the law.. much like the sneaky lawyer who tried to snag Jesus on the question “Who is my brother?”
“You may charge a foreigner interest, but you may not charge your brother interest, that the LORD your God may bless you in all that you undertake in the land that you are entering to take possession of it” – Deuteronomy 23:20
Protestants became even worse than these Jewish lenders though. Because they have no qualms about charging interest on anyone. The former is racist and the other straight up wicked.
Headless Unicorn Guy
With more abstraction comes less stability, and I don’t know the optimum balance point between the two (but people are people, and we’ll probably overshoot it and get our heads handed to us a couple times before we find the balance).
If people don’t fix it, I think God will let Muslims run over everyone. They’re taskmasters, and at the same time, a blessing in disguise. For they are one of the only powerful groups left who insist on anti-usury laws. They will teach the “hard way” on morality on a society who thrives on the injustice.
I’d prefer the “soft way”. 😛
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Calvin wrote the following regarding usury:-
“No one is to lend at interest or for profit greater than five per cent, on pain of confiscation of the capital sum and of being required to make appropriate amends according to the needs of the case.”
(The Ordinances for the Supervision of the Churches in the Country, in a section called ‘Faults Contravening the Reformation besides Those Already Mentioned’)
His view of usury can be found, at some length, in his Harmony of the Gospels and in his Commentaries at the relevant verses. It seems to be along the lines of the poor are exempt because it would drive them further into debt; in all other cases, it has to be ethical, fair and applies to believers and unbelievers.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Calvin wrote the following regarding usury:-
“No one is to lend at interest or for profit greater than five per cent, on pain of confiscation of the capital sum and of being required to make appropriate amends according to the needs of the case.”
(The Ordinances for the Supervision of the Churches in the Country, in a section called ‘Faults Contravening the Reformation besides Those Already Mentioned’)
His view of usury can be found, at some length, in his Harmony of the Gospels and in his Commentaries at the relevant verses. It seems to be along the lines of the poor are exempt because it would drive them further into debt; in all other cases, it has to be ethical, fair and applies to believers and unbelievers.
How is it in harmony? No way Jesus or any Jew of the 1st century was flexible about this. It’s theft. If anything, Jesus taught we should loan more than necessary (if you have two coats, give to him who has none), and do it all out of charity.
“But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.” Lk 6:35
Calvin’s teaching was Pandora’s box. And the results are in front of all of our eyes.
Rachael Denhollander is continuing her attack on the SGM Establishment, not giving them time to regroup and effectively counterattack. She may be the one to finally take them down.
I think this lady has done what no one else could do. Drive a wedge between the 3 friends and Mahaney. It was huge Mahaney pulling out of T4G. I doubt you will see Mahaney with them again. I could be wrong. But I think with her doing what she is doing it makes him too hot for them to be around him any longer. No one would want to be one to defend Mahaney with Rachel hot on his trail.
But, don’t think I am naive enough to expect an apology from the 3 friends.
I will say Catholics held their ground for awhile, but nowadays, you even have Paul Ryan shilling for the Koch brothers and making his staff read Ayn Rand.
@ Seraph:
The Harmony relates to how the individual Gospel accounts agree with each other, nothing else.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Problem is, compounding interest (such as we have today) leads to debt slavery like Russian serfs or Mexican peons.
HUG,
I HAVE A VERSE FOR THAT!!!
The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is slave to the lender.
Proverbs 22:7
Message: Stay out of debt, especially the unsecured high interest types, such as credit cards.
But, what if the power-assumers have a vision for something shiny and expensive that they’re telling their subjects, I mean congregants, to subsidize?
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“Better that many guilty persons escape unpunished than one innocent person should be punished. ‘The reason is, because it’s of more importance to community, that innocence should be protected, than it is, that guilt should be punished.’” David McCullough, John Adams, 68.
Really, Dever? Really? And he’s leading the charge for the evangelical, “Healthy Church?”
Funny how when it comes to those who are supposed to be above reproach (that from one of those books that may not be promoted for $ale at T4G as some others), tender words of forgiveness, restoration, and mercy often flow from many others of the same ilk (i.e. many of the ones fashioning themselves with the shepherding rods and staffs). Yet when it comes to the straying sheep (sic), many can’t wield the rods and staffs of discipline quick enough, leaving the offers of forgiveness, restoration, and mercy off the bat to those who are seen as more equal to themselves.
Yet when it comes to the straying sheep (sic), many can’t wield the rods and staffs of discipline quick enough, leaving the offers of forgiveness, restoration, and mercy off the bat to those who are seen as more equal to themselves.
Some of the stuff they’ve written about “the sheep” is frankly disgusting. The contempt they have for God’s children is extremely disturbing.
@ Seraph:
Is this necessary? I believe in self-government.
9Marks was started with the financial backing of a nonbeliever: a neighbor of Mark Dever’s who was a very successful serial entrepreneur. He and Dever were its corporate officers in the early years, along with Matt Schmucker, who went on to organize all the T4G conferences and other projects of Dever’s.
“The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is slave to the lender.
Proverbs 22:7
Message: Stay out of debt, especially the unsecured high interest types, such as credit cards.
JDV wrote: But, what if the power-assumers have a vision for something shiny and expensive that they’re telling their subjects, I mean congregants, to subsidize?”
+++++++++++++++++++++++
ah, yes. such a convenient verse for pastors & others to wield in asking christians to fund something shiny & exciting because “it’s biblical”.
(including trips to ‘The Holy Land’, & other self-enrichment opportunities under the guise of ‘missions’. Don’t see why they can’t plan ahead, get a temporary side job and pay their own way.)
A tenet of New Cal theology is absolute authoritarian leadership, which they believe is the only way to have a healthy church. When Dever and friends talk about “healthy churches”, they are saying “obedient churches”. They are not talking about healthy members, as they seem to believe that everyone continues to be corrupt after being elected.
This stems from what I believe is the main tenet of New Cal theology, that the Elect are chosen only from their churches. New Calvinist preaching is the only way by which someone is saved. Covenants are used as legal contracts to keep people from leaving….If you look at the ESS theology, they compare men as leaders of their house to God the Father. God cannot be questioned as leader. They take that further to mean that pastors/elders should have unquestioned authority…
This is the issue, and when you try to reason with them, it takes time to understand that they are coming from such a different perspective than traditional, New Testament Christianity, that’s it’s impossible to get anywhere with them. Their perspective is not Christian.
So if you argue from the perspective of the priesthood of all believers, different parts of the Body of Christ, each having equal importance, the concept of leaders as those who simply serve, not take the stage and command the attention of all and demand compliance with their vision, it is truly not a part of their theology; they reason it all away. You might as well be explaining astrophysics to an alley cat. It will not compute. They cannot, will not, hear you. You MUST be wrong because you’re disagreeing with them, they MUST be right because they’re a leader of the elect. There is no such thing as a legitimate ethics independent of the overwhelming reality of their leadership of God’s elect. So even when they do great harm and behave in purely evil ways—such as hiding child abusers from authorities—those things are not wrong because of the position of the one who did them.
So they listen to no one except a small coterie of like-minded leaders. This is why they’re so intent on things like leadership conferences and hierarchies, T4G conferences and the like. They are not Christian in practice, and while I can’t pretend to know the heart of any given person, that being God’s territory, based on fruits and belief systems that are so radically different from what Jesus and the apostles taught, I believe manf them are not even Christians in belief.
Protestants became even worse than these Jewish lenders though. Because they have no qualms about charging interest on anyone. The former is racist and the other straight up wicked.
It’s always easier to blame the Jews though. If I remember correctly, a certain Austrian corporal did it big time and seduced a whole nation with it.
And now with the Industrial-to-Information economy transition, things have become even more abstract with Bitcoin and other virtual cryptocurrencies. With more abstraction comes less stability, and I don’t know the optimum balance point between the two (but people are people, and we’ll probably overshoot it and get our heads handed to us a couple times before we find the balance).
True, true, and true. And yet the irony persists. You (generic you) still cannot eat bitcoin, gold, silver, or greenbacks. The tummy will only accept what is produced from arable land.
(including trips to ‘The Holy Land’, & other self-enrichment opportunities under the guise of ‘missions’. Don’t see why they can’t plan ahead, get a temporary side job and pay their own way.)
The medieval clergy lived off the backs of the serfs, got rich, and managed their immortal souls in return. Why should their present day counterparts be any different?
Protestants became even worse than these Jewish lenders though. Because they have no qualms about charging interest on anyone. The former is racist and the other straight up wicked.
It’s always easier to blame the Jews though. If I remember correctly, a certain Austrian corporal did it big time and seduced a whole nation with it.
You’re probably right, sadly. Also, forgot to mention, Europe pretty much pushed Jews in a corner during medieval times. They couldn’t get much work. I think they were well known for glass making, but the other was lending (or just plain pawning of goods). It’s partly not their fault they became so well known for it.
They cannot, will not, hear you. You MUST be wrong because you’re disagreeing with them, they MUST be right because they’re a leader of the elect. There is no such thing as a legitimate ethics independent of the overwhelming reality of their leadership of God’s elect. So even when they do great harm and behave in purely evil ways—such as hiding child abusers from authorities—those things are not wrong because of the position of the one who did them.
So they listen to no one except a small coterie of like-minded leaders.
Doesn’t that also describe this one Inner Ring of leading Rabbis who got real riled about some hick Rabbi from Nazareth?
___
Documented multi-generational sexual deviancy and predatorily practices were covered-up and concealed in the POD/PDI/SGM/SGC Maryland 501c)3 religious organization for some thirty years. National media exposure came in 2011. Much of the legal and investigative efforts failed to properly combat this ‘501(c)3 religious plague’ in the state of Maryland; failed to bring the proper justice, and failed to bring relief and successful remody. These harmful practices and the environment that created them, live to harm another day. Furthermore national cleric 501(c)3 religious leaders continue abuse and hide behind cleric/penitent, tax and separation of church and state laws, to support those who refuse(d) to take these deviant individuals and those that harbor them and present them to the proper authorities. Therein lies the rub. These national religious men have place the propagation of their highly profitable theological religious system know as New Calvinism above and beyond the safety of our children. Aparrently much more public exposure is required to identify groups, men, and 501(c)3 establishments that continue to practice these harmful behaviors, and promote concerted efforts that will result in bringing those involved to justice.
Time Bake(d) Spiritual Minions ™ : “Threaded And Twisted Into A Thirty Year Plus 501(c)3 Religious Pretzel Like A Tim Burton Nightmare…, Perhaps?” (1)
Whew!
hmmm…
SGC;(formerly ‘nefariously’ known as Sovereign Grace Ministries…) Is a 501(c)3 religious ‘domination’/family/ group of churches that began unsuspectingly as an ‘innocuous’ independent Washington D.C., Tuesday night church bible fellowship , lead by two former Roman Catholics, later over some thirty years only to have this ‘simple’ bible fellowship morph into a religious ‘cult’ ‘family’ group of churches that shunned the medical community, mental health practitioners, legal, and law enforcement intervention, pressured homeschooling, encouraged close proximity domicile housing, exactingly pursued shepherding, —a group of 501(c)3 religious leaders that abused and inflated their spiritual authority, isolated their members: later ‘morphing’ included internal enforcement of a form Calvinism by stealthily means, joining the unsuspecting SBC, and winning support in the proliferation of New Calvinism by various nationally held religious conferences open to some eight thousand ‘pastoral’ attendees, pay-for-play. It is important to understand that in the thirty some years, TAG/GOB/CLC/POD/PDI/SGM/SGC ‘cult’ wracked-out mindset, (get this…) —for a victim of sexual abuse, pursuing justice through the legal system was/is considered SIN [in capital letters] (convoluted as it sounds) , —subjecting the victim(s) —that wishes to come forward and approach the secular authorities for justice and relief, —brings/brought sever discipline, typical highly documented cult group shunning/shaming, and possible group removal, etc. To clarify the context: The focus on SGC and these accused churches and leaders is simply not gonna go away.
They continue to morph and cloud away, today…
SKreeeeeeeeeetch!
“The ultimate reality that I live with is that if my abuser had been Nathaniel Morales [a church member at Covenant Life Church convicted of child sexual abuse] instead of Larry Nassar, if my enabler had been [an SGM pastor] instead of [MSU gymnastics coach] Kathie Klages, if the organization I was speaking out against was Sovereign Grace under the leadership of [Mahaney] instead of MSU under the leadership of Lou Anna Simon, I would not only not have evangelical support, I would be actively vilified and lied about by every single evangelical leader out there…” “We are very happy to use sexual assault as a convenient whipping block when it’s outside our community. When the Penn State scandal broke, prominent evangelical leaders were very, very quick to call for accountability, to call for change. But when it was within our own community, the immediate response was to vilify the victims…”
-Rachael Denhollander
Go Rachael!
“What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the inner rooms will be shouted from the rooftops.”
Thanks for this post, Dee.
Can a clear conscience sanction sexual predator Nassar – no, and he is now incarcerated, for life. To some degree, enablers are also being considered as some have lost their jobs and positions, etc.
Then, as Denhollander has concisely stated, predation in some churches is also not OK, and the subsequent actions of all those associated have no moral compass, no business as church leadership. The $$$ financial supporters and fans should also consider their enabling involvements and support of predation in their churches.
Wow, that was brilliant. I pray it leads to immense change in the church.
I don’t understand why this is not getting more media attention in general. Is it #metoo fatigue?
It’s Spotlight all over again.
And that’s a good thing.
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
I think part of it might be because Protestant denominations are smaller than, say, the Catholic church. Because the Catholic church is so big, it’s more interesting for the media to cover, and coverage results in more ratings because people have actually heard of the Catholic church. Most normal folk haven’t heard of SGC, so it’s not going to give as much ratings. Sad but true.
I think for getting more coverage, Rachel should use what media time she gets calling out the Mahaney supporters in the SBC etc., because more people have heard of the SBC than SGC. Then more coverage might happen. Just my 2 cents.
I really do wish journalists would cover scandals like this more often. The public court of appeal is the only one left when the justice system fails. Good on Rachel for what she’s doing. She’s like a pit bull and won’t let go!
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
Actually, it is an old story fatigue. Having recently spent some time in dialogue with some national writers, I learned that SGM is an *old story.*
I see that even is such a sad situation God has a sense of humor in reprimanding His people….Young cute articulate woman standing toe to toe with the big boys of male dominance theology, correcting and calling to account their misguided deeds. GO!! Deborah of this age!
I do think that’s Sandra Smith not Martha mccalum. But YES this is not going away! Sins are like crabgrass….you ignore them and then their little offshoots keep popping up all over the place!
Abigail wrote:
Yes, good analogy, with no Statute of Limitation.
dee wrote:
That’s a sad reality. If looks like there is more money to be made for the gospel glitterati in supporting that crowd than there is for the the media in exposing them. The only way to get the media interesting is to make it profitable for them?
dee wrote:
I think clockwork angel also has a point. In our neck of the woods no one has heard of sgc/sgm. So it doesn’t show on any local or even national (Canadian) news feeds.
dee wrote:
Good news is that God has no fatigue. He doesn’t need the media or you or me. He may choose to use the media, or you, or me to do what He wishes. And it seldom seems this way to me, but His timing is perfect, as is His plan. I don’t know what it is. But I do know He cares for each and every one of us. And His heart is toward to broken reed.
That is where my comfort comes from when discouragement threatens. He cares for justice.
Abigail wrote:
McCallum did the interview portion later in the video.
dee wrote:
Very unfortunate. It’s the enabling church folks that are dragging their feet, or their lagging conscience.
We need men showing the character, concern and intergrity Rachael consistently shows. May her voice be heard. Rachael, please DO NOt sit down and shut up. The church needs to hear your voice.
Stunned wrote:
Amen.
On a sidenote, regardless of one’s opinions on the POTUS, he knows how to manipulate that.. the so called “news cycle”. He’s been in the news (often for pointless reasons) since I was a little kid. It might be a good skill to learn, for better purposes.
With all of Dever’s/9Marks aggressive marketing into SBC churches (and beyond) of heavy-handed, authoritarian church discipline, how is it that CJ Mahaney, SUPPORTED by Dever, waltzes out of very bad leadership of one church, right into leadership of another church, with NO accountability or discipline for the trail of victim horror left behind? What happened to…”what’s good for the goose is good for the gander?”
Augustine wrote:
Accountability is too often reserved for the paying people.
You go Rachael,
You are bringing to light what male church leaders should have done years ago. I do believe that Rachael might be able to bring more attention to this issue because she is in the spotlight now and she is well spoken, attractive and knowledgeable.
dee wrote:
Pretty frustrating, first there is no reporting because the story is unproven and then when proof is obtained there is no report because the story is old.
Stunned wrote:
You are correct that there is no fatigue with God. His justice will prevail. There are so many stories coming out now that it is easy to confuse the details. For some, these things become less shocking as they become accustomed to hearing about it. For every single victim involved, it is just as bad as ever it was. This is one fight that should never be given up.
The fact that she is speaking out may still encourage others. Victims will be helped to speak out. Bystanders may make a choice to support victims. Churches may be called to be much more careful with back ground checks, etc. So whether Mahaney and his ilk are held accountable or not I believe that the culture within churches will no longer be able to remain ignorant of these crimes. Rachel has been pivotal. Jules has been pivotal. These are brave women! I thank God that the dark veil has been lifted so that survivors can speak.
Thersites wrote:
The World doesn’t care what goes on in the church.
The church itself doesn’t care either. Asleep on the job. Apathy. Not on their agenda.
Hence, TWW started by Dee and Deb, as they so state – to give a voice.
Thankfully Fox News will at least reach the target audience of conservative church goers, who might take heed. That’s the first thing that matters. Not the world.
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“Better that many guilty persons escape unpunished than one innocent person should be punished. ‘The reason is, because it’s of more importance to community, that innocence should be protected, than it is, that guilt should be punished.’” David McCullough, John Adams, 68.
Really, Dever? Really? And he’s leading the charge for the evangelical, “Healthy Church?”
Augustine wrote:
A basic tenet of New Cal theology is absolute authoritarian leadership, which they believe is the only way to have a healthy church. When Dever and friends talk about “healthy churches”, they are saying “obedient churches”. They are not talking about healthy members, as they seem to believe that everyone continues to be corrupt after being elected.
This stems from what I believe is the main tenet of New Cal theology, that the Elect are chosen only from their churches. New Calvinist preaching is the only way by which someone is saved. Covenants are used as legal contracts to keep people from leaving. If someone leaves their church for a church outside their circle, they declare that person ex-communicated and unable to be elected. Forcing members to remain in their church gives them a higher chance to be elected because they continue to hear “proper” preaching.
If you look at the ESS theology, they compare men as leaders of their house to God the Father. God cannot be questioned as leader. They take that further to mean that pastors/elders should have unquestioned authority and the non-leaders are incapable of knowing God’s will even over fathers of each household, just as women are “deceived” and can’t be trusted to lead. Their gender roles system doesn’t just extend to households, but is the foundation for how they believe churches should be organized, and Dever is at the center of pushing that system.
I do believe that most of their theology stems from narcissistic personalities who cannot imagine a world where they are not in charge. Most of them appointed themselves to leadership (Mahaney is a great example of that). I’m pretty sure there’s also some wolves in the mix who are knowingly leading people astray because they get immense power and monetary gain from it. So I don’t thing logic will make sense of their theology.
Bruce Ware is the most open about their theology of authoritarianism: http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2016/06/god-the-sonat-once-eternally-g.php
ishy wrote:
Are they really this arrogant?
I’m not a Protestant, but occasionally, I liked RC Sproul, and I remember him distinctly saying he didn’t know who was “elected” or not. Which should be obvious anyways, but whatever. He was humble enough to say it.
Seraph wrote:
Sadly, yes. And this is why there has been so much corruption in their churches. Probably 60% of the posts on TWW have been about stuff like this.
Sproul seemed to me like he got worse as this movement grew, but that was true for a lot of these guys.
Some of TWW’s pertinent posts:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/02/22/what-should-we-do-about-9marks-and-other-abusive-churches-guest-post-by-dale/
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/08/27/capital-hill-baptist-church-the-hotel-california-of-church-discipline/
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/05/10/9-marks-and-the-gospel-coalition-continue-to-ignore-the-abuse-in-their-midst/
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/06/24/is-there-a-calvinist-agenda-to-reform-traditional-southern-baptist-churches/comment-page-1/
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/05/15/a-successful-church-takeover-using-stealth-strategies-in-the-calvinista-playbook/
Oh, I should add that none of them admit they know who is elected or if they themselves are elected. But attending their churches and hearing their preaching is the only way to be elected.
Conversely, not doing that means you cannot be elected. So they do claim some special knowledge of who will not be part of the elect.
I believe it is a form of gnosticism and it goes directly against certain Scriptures, but they are real big on ignoring Bible verses that don’t support their theology. They just pretend those verses don’t exist, and if you bring them up, they almost always change the subject either completely or by quoting one of their big theologians on something that isn’t really related. Trying to argue with most of them usually just ends in frustration.
ishy wrote:
I can see that (gnosticism).. maybe not in direct belief, but in the special club/elitist sense. I believe the orthodox hold on to ancient faith more than others, but contrary to this pattern, they’re not so brutal about it. A popular orthodox saying is “We don’t know what the Holy Spirit is doing outside the church, but we do know he is in ours.”
On a sidenote, the rise in popularity of real gnosticism kind of makes me laugh. I think some people do it out of rebellion or spite (especially feminist scholars like Elaine Pagels). Yet the whole system was modeled after Pythagoras, and came from a slave based society. I think they’re attracted to the idea that Mary Magdelene in some gnostic gospels is this woman Jesus takes to the side, to give her special teachings away from the Apostles. And they think that’s women empowerment.. But they miss the forest for the trees. It’s elitism. Forget the gender difference.
I’ll cut it short.. sorry for ranting.
ishy wrote:
I figure they’re always trying to PROVE to themselves that They Are REALLY of the Elect. (Since Calvin wrote Infallibly and Inerrantly of a “false Election” of the Reprobate, you can NEVER be sure of your Predestined Fate.)
Once this PROOF of Election was “material blessings”, i.e. Getting Rich.
Now it’s Perfectly-Parsed, Utterly Correct, Truly REFORMED Theology. (And fame among the Reformed.)
And One-Upmanship applies to both.
I’d say the only reason a lot of the so called “material blessings” came upon the Protestant world is that they became usurers.
ishy wrote:
The very word “Gnostic” means “He Who KNOWS Things”, in the sense of Speshul Sekrit Spiritual Knowledge known only to an Inner Ring of Illuminati.
Seraph wrote:
Use Proper Code Words: Not “Usury” (loansharking), “High Finance” (like what started Sears & Roebucks’ death spiral).
Problem is, moneylending is key to a post-Industrial Revolution economy, yet compounding interest on the loaned money also creates lifetime Serfs who can never pay off the ever-compounding debt to Milord. (Feature, not bug, for the Financial Elect.) Yet even a moneylender is worth his wages; the only compromise system I like is NOT ever-compounding interest, but a flat fee (percentage of the principal) for use of the lender’s money.
ishy wrote:
A theology very appealing to the Kim Jong Uns and Lord Voldemorts to whom “there is only POWER”.
Back to the original subject:
Rachael Denhollander is continuing her attack on the SGM Establishment, not giving them time to regroup and effectively counterattack. She may be the one to finally take them down.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Maybe you’re right. I don’t know much about finance tbh (or why this was necessary for Industrial age society?). I just know it’s forbidden.
As much as the European Jews got associated with moneylending, the Torah originally states usury is only forbidden to fellow Jews. They know themselves it was bad..that’s why they didn’t do it to each other. But Christians were called to something better than merely be fair to one’s countrymen. We’re not to see people as insiders or outsiders in this.
“Who is my neighbor?” the clever lawyer asked Jesus. And Jesus preceded to tell him the famous parable of the Good Samaritan. “Go and do likewise.” Jesus message turned the lawyer’s question on it’s head. That we shouldn’t ask “Who is my neighbor?” but “YOU be the neighbor. YOU take the initiative.” And I say this applies to usury too.. since Jesus and the lawyer were basically summing up the point of the Torah.
Anyways, apparently it was Calvin who let loose the teachings on usury. “Sola Scriptura”? Yeah right. What he did was one up even the Shylock of Shakespeare. For when Jews only did it to outsiders, the Western Christian world became predators on their own family.
Heh.. sorry for the rant and going off topic again. If you want, just tell me why the industrial age needed this. I’d honestly like to know, and try not to reply/spend more time on the subject beyond that.
Forrest wrote:
Amen!
Seraph wrote:
Not 100% sure myself, but it probably had to do with the increasing abstraction of money over time. Here’s how I understand it, from what I remember about college economics:
Before the Industrial Revolution, the measure of wealth was arable Land (and the slaves/serfs/peasants to work it). That’s why its still called “Real Property”. Money didn’t enter into the picture, except for commoner merchants.
As mercantile economies and trade gained prominence after the Middle Ages and Age of Exploration/Colonization, the measure of wealth transitioned to money. Bankers/financiers/moneylenders began to gain prominence to raise money for all this, and wealth began to become more abstract; loans and paybacks, credit and debit, instead of gold in your strongbox under your bed. This had a positive aspect of freeing up more money into circulation, making wealth possible for more and more people.
The Industrial Revolution accelerated this process, as industrialization required more and more ready sources of investment cash. (It may be that to make the transition from land-based agricultural to industrial economy, you need some concentration of “new money” wealth willing to take a chance.) Land-rich but cash-poor nobles had to adapt, often making political marriages into the new “merchant nobility”.
The downside of this was that money and wealth became more and more abstract. Instead of gold reserves, countries now back their currency with the relative strength of their economies and fluctuating exchange rates.
And now with the Industrial-to-Information economy transition, things have become even more abstract with Bitcoin and other virtual cryptocurrencies. With more abstraction comes less stability, and I don’t know the optimum balance point between the two (but people are people, and we’ll probably overshoot it and get our heads handed to us a couple times before we find the balance).
Seraph wrote:
You can’t blame that one on just Protestants. Jews were in on that one too.
Also, how would you define “usury”. If you define it as charging interest at all, I would say your definition is off. The dictionary definition is charging unreasonable or illegal interest rates. Illegal is easy to define. Unreasonable, not so much.
Ken P. wrote:
Problem is, compounding interest (such as we have today) leads to debt slavery like Russian serfs or Mexican peons.
Yet the lenders have to have some return from risking their money out on loan. That’s why I tend towards the compromise of charging a flat fee for use of the money (such as a promissory note) which does NOT grow without limit for all eternity.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
HUG,
I HAVE A VERSE FOR THAT!!!
The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is slave to the lender.
Proverbs 22:7
Message: Stay out of debt, especially the unsecured high interest types, such as credit cards.
Ken P. wrote:
I explained how Jews were in on it. They still kept their law, because the law says you can do it to outsiders. To be blunt about it, they have a lot of hate and exclusivity and have no qualms about usury on the Gentiles. And as they don’t believe in their own Messiah and the brotherhood of humankind, they stick to the letter of the law.. much like the sneaky lawyer who tried to snag Jesus on the question “Who is my brother?”
“You may charge a foreigner interest, but you may not charge your brother interest, that the LORD your God may bless you in all that you undertake in the land that you are entering to take possession of it” – Deuteronomy 23:20
Protestants became even worse than these Jewish lenders though. Because they have no qualms about charging interest on anyone. The former is racist and the other straight up wicked.
Headless Unicorn Guy
With more abstraction comes less stability, and I don’t know the optimum balance point between the two (but people are people, and we’ll probably overshoot it and get our heads handed to us a couple times before we find the balance).
If people don’t fix it, I think God will let Muslims run over everyone. They’re taskmasters, and at the same time, a blessing in disguise. For they are one of the only powerful groups left who insist on anti-usury laws. They will teach the “hard way” on morality on a society who thrives on the injustice.
I’d prefer the “soft way”. 😛
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Calvin wrote the following regarding usury:-
“No one is to lend at interest or for profit greater than five per cent, on pain of confiscation of the capital sum and of being required to make appropriate amends according to the needs of the case.”
(The Ordinances for the Supervision of the Churches in the Country, in a section called ‘Faults Contravening the Reformation besides Those Already Mentioned’)
His view of usury can be found, at some length, in his Harmony of the Gospels and in his Commentaries at the relevant verses. It seems to be along the lines of the poor are exempt because it would drive them further into debt; in all other cases, it has to be ethical, fair and applies to believers and unbelievers.
Lowlandseer wrote:
How is it in harmony? No way Jesus or any Jew of the 1st century was flexible about this. It’s theft. If anything, Jesus taught we should loan more than necessary (if you have two coats, give to him who has none), and do it all out of charity.
“But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.” Lk 6:35
Calvin’s teaching was Pandora’s box. And the results are in front of all of our eyes.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I think this lady has done what no one else could do. Drive a wedge between the 3 friends and Mahaney. It was huge Mahaney pulling out of T4G. I doubt you will see Mahaney with them again. I could be wrong. But I think with her doing what she is doing it makes him too hot for them to be around him any longer. No one would want to be one to defend Mahaney with Rachel hot on his trail.
But, don’t think I am naive enough to expect an apology from the 3 friends.
I will say Catholics held their ground for awhile, but nowadays, you even have Paul Ryan shilling for the Koch brothers and making his staff read Ayn Rand.
@ Seraph:
The Harmony relates to how the individual Gospel accounts agree with each other, nothing else.
Ken P. wrote:
But, what if the power-assumers have a vision for something shiny and expensive that they’re telling their subjects, I mean congregants, to subsidize?
Augustine wrote:
Funny how when it comes to those who are supposed to be above reproach (that from one of those books that may not be promoted for $ale at T4G as some others), tender words of forgiveness, restoration, and mercy often flow from many others of the same ilk (i.e. many of the ones fashioning themselves with the shepherding rods and staffs). Yet when it comes to the straying sheep (sic), many can’t wield the rods and staffs of discipline quick enough, leaving the offers of forgiveness, restoration, and mercy off the bat to those who are seen as more equal to themselves.
JDV wrote:
Some of the stuff they’ve written about “the sheep” is frankly disgusting. The contempt they have for God’s children is extremely disturbing.
I found the post I was looking for: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/09/19/mark-dever9marks-on-healthy-pastors-and-unhealthy-sheep/
@ Seraph:
Is this necessary? I believe in self-government.
9Marks was started with the financial backing of a nonbeliever: a neighbor of Mark Dever’s who was a very successful serial entrepreneur. He and Dever were its corporate officers in the early years, along with Matt Schmucker, who went on to organize all the T4G conferences and other projects of Dever’s.
Lydia wrote:
Is what necessary? Sorry for asking. I’ve kind of rambled on a few subjects 😛
Pingback: Special Report – My Calvary Temple Tactic's Blog Commentary
@ JDV:
“The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is slave to the lender.
Proverbs 22:7
Message: Stay out of debt, especially the unsecured high interest types, such as credit cards.
JDV wrote: But, what if the power-assumers have a vision for something shiny and expensive that they’re telling their subjects, I mean congregants, to subsidize?”
+++++++++++++++++++++++
ah, yes. such a convenient verse for pastors & others to wield in asking christians to fund something shiny & exciting because “it’s biblical”.
(including trips to ‘The Holy Land’, & other self-enrichment opportunities under the guise of ‘missions’. Don’t see why they can’t plan ahead, get a temporary side job and pay their own way.)
ishy wrote:
This is the issue, and when you try to reason with them, it takes time to understand that they are coming from such a different perspective than traditional, New Testament Christianity, that’s it’s impossible to get anywhere with them. Their perspective is not Christian.
So if you argue from the perspective of the priesthood of all believers, different parts of the Body of Christ, each having equal importance, the concept of leaders as those who simply serve, not take the stage and command the attention of all and demand compliance with their vision, it is truly not a part of their theology; they reason it all away. You might as well be explaining astrophysics to an alley cat. It will not compute. They cannot, will not, hear you. You MUST be wrong because you’re disagreeing with them, they MUST be right because they’re a leader of the elect. There is no such thing as a legitimate ethics independent of the overwhelming reality of their leadership of God’s elect. So even when they do great harm and behave in purely evil ways—such as hiding child abusers from authorities—those things are not wrong because of the position of the one who did them.
So they listen to no one except a small coterie of like-minded leaders. This is why they’re so intent on things like leadership conferences and hierarchies, T4G conferences and the like. They are not Christian in practice, and while I can’t pretend to know the heart of any given person, that being God’s territory, based on fruits and belief systems that are so radically different from what Jesus and the apostles taught, I believe manf them are not even Christians in belief.
Seraph wrote:
It’s always easier to blame the Jews though. If I remember correctly, a certain Austrian corporal did it big time and seduced a whole nation with it.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
True, true, and true. And yet the irony persists. You (generic you) still cannot eat bitcoin, gold, silver, or greenbacks. The tummy will only accept what is produced from arable land.
elastigirl wrote:
The medieval clergy lived off the backs of the serfs, got rich, and managed their immortal souls in return. Why should their present day counterparts be any different?
Muff Potter wrote:
You’re probably right, sadly. Also, forgot to mention, Europe pretty much pushed Jews in a corner during medieval times. They couldn’t get much work. I think they were well known for glass making, but the other was lending (or just plain pawning of goods). It’s partly not their fault they became so well known for it.
Law Prof wrote:
Doesn’t that also describe this one Inner Ring of leading Rabbis who got real riled about some hick Rabbi from Nazareth?
___
Documented multi-generational sexual deviancy and predatorily practices were covered-up and concealed in the POD/PDI/SGM/SGC Maryland 501c)3 religious organization for some thirty years. National media exposure came in 2011. Much of the legal and investigative efforts failed to properly combat this ‘501(c)3 religious plague’ in the state of Maryland; failed to bring the proper justice, and failed to bring relief and successful remody. These harmful practices and the environment that created them, live to harm another day. Furthermore national cleric 501(c)3 religious leaders continue abuse and hide behind cleric/penitent, tax and separation of church and state laws, to support those who refuse(d) to take these deviant individuals and those that harbor them and present them to the proper authorities. Therein lies the rub. These national religious men have place the propagation of their highly profitable theological religious system know as New Calvinism above and beyond the safety of our children. Aparrently much more public exposure is required to identify groups, men, and 501(c)3 establishments that continue to practice these harmful behaviors, and promote concerted efforts that will result in bringing those involved to justice.
– –
Sobering times….
http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/castellitto/180216
___
Time Bake(d) Spiritual Minions ™ : “Threaded And Twisted Into A Thirty Year Plus 501(c)3 Religious Pretzel Like A Tim Burton Nightmare…, Perhaps?” (1)
Whew!
hmmm…
SGC;(formerly ‘nefariously’ known as Sovereign Grace Ministries…) Is a 501(c)3 religious ‘domination’/family/ group of churches that began unsuspectingly as an ‘innocuous’ independent Washington D.C., Tuesday night church bible fellowship , lead by two former Roman Catholics, later over some thirty years only to have this ‘simple’ bible fellowship morph into a religious ‘cult’ ‘family’ group of churches that shunned the medical community, mental health practitioners, legal, and law enforcement intervention, pressured homeschooling, encouraged close proximity domicile housing, exactingly pursued shepherding, —a group of 501(c)3 religious leaders that abused and inflated their spiritual authority, isolated their members: later ‘morphing’ included internal enforcement of a form Calvinism by stealthily means, joining the unsuspecting SBC, and winning support in the proliferation of New Calvinism by various nationally held religious conferences open to some eight thousand ‘pastoral’ attendees, pay-for-play. It is important to understand that in the thirty some years, TAG/GOB/CLC/POD/PDI/SGM/SGC ‘cult’ wracked-out mindset, (get this…) —for a victim of sexual abuse, pursuing justice through the legal system was/is considered SIN [in capital letters] (convoluted as it sounds) , —subjecting the victim(s) —that wishes to come forward and approach the secular authorities for justice and relief, —brings/brought sever discipline, typical highly documented cult group shunning/shaming, and possible group removal, etc. To clarify the context: The focus on SGC and these accused churches and leaders is simply not gonna go away.
They continue to morph and cloud away, today…
SKreeeeeeeeeetch!
“The ultimate reality that I live with is that if my abuser had been Nathaniel Morales [a church member at Covenant Life Church convicted of child sexual abuse] instead of Larry Nassar, if my enabler had been [an SGM pastor] instead of [MSU gymnastics coach] Kathie Klages, if the organization I was speaking out against was Sovereign Grace under the leadership of [Mahaney] instead of MSU under the leadership of Lou Anna Simon, I would not only not have evangelical support, I would be actively vilified and lied about by every single evangelical leader out there…” “We are very happy to use sexual assault as a convenient whipping block when it’s outside our community. When the Penn State scandal broke, prominent evangelical leaders were very, very quick to call for accountability, to call for change. But when it was within our own community, the immediate response was to vilify the victims…”
-Rachael Denhollander
Christianity Today’s Festering ‘Open Wound’, huh? (3)
Better lōōk before you leap…
KRunch!
(sadface)
♪♩♪♩ hum, hum, hum …’and I get on my knees and pray…—we don’t get fooled again…’ (2)
ATB
Sòoy
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(1) ‘It came out of the religious woodwork?’ ™
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5I3PP1xLi88
(2) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q
(3) http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2018/march-web-only/sovereign-grace-need-investigation-sgm-mahaney-denhollander.html
🙁
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