Mark Dever/9Marks on “Healthy” Pastors and Unhealthy Sheep

"I think a lot of churches are dysfunctional because their pastors are terrible. And I would like to see more healthy pastors leading more healthy churches."
Mark Dever

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Funny Face

These have been unprecedented times in the Neo-Cal corner of Christendom.  Remember the first two pastors to resign from the Executive Council of The Gospel Coalition (TGC)?  Here's a hint… The Elephant Room.  First James MacDonald resigned, then Mark Driscoll.  Don Carson and Tim Keller published Mark Driscoll's statement upon his departure.  Driscoll explained:

I was a founding member of The Gospel Coalition and to this day enjoy deep friendships and theological unity with the men. But I'm no longer going to be a Council member, as I seek to focus my energies on a handful of things. If I'm honest, with the continued growth of all the ministries in which I'm involved, it's not sustainable for me to keep up with all of them. So, this is a season of pruning for me. 

For the record, no one has asked me to leave the Council, and I have no relational conflict with anyone and no disagreement theologically. The men remain friends who are welcome to speak into my life, and I'm transitioning for no other reason than I find myself at the end of my tether with time and energy.

I'm deeply thankful for the Council and have been deeply honored to be a part of it.

Just as we were launching TWW in the spring of 2009, I remember TGC holding a big conference in Chicago.  They were so proud to be featuring Mark Driscoll as one of the speakers.  We began expressing our concerns about Driscoll shortly after this conference while TGC continued to endorse him. 

Getting back to James MacDonald, of Elephant's Debt fame, earlier this week he asked for forgiveness from former Harvest Bible Chapel elders for how they were disciplined last year, according to Christianity Today.  That article states:

The elders were disciplined in September 2013 after speaking out against a “culture of fear and intimidation” and a lack of transparency in the church, including financial matters, according to a World magazine report last year. The Chicago-area church owes $56.8 million in construction costs.

Our friend Wade Burleson weighed in on the matter in a post entitled You Can't Forgive Foolishness; James MacDonald on "Spiritual Authority' Invested in Church Elders.

As we have discussed in previous posts, Driscoll and MacDonald are great friends — remember the Strange Fire debacle? And until recently MacDonald served on Mars Hill's Board of Advisors and Accountability.  Warren Throckmorton discussed his MacDonald's resignation here.

Regarding The Gospel Coalition's cadre of Council Members, let's not forget the resignations of C.J. Mahaney and Joshua Harris last March (just prior to the 2014 Together for the Gospel conference).  Of course, Mahaney and Dever have had a special friendship for almost two decades, which was clearly demonstrated by that infamous statement issued by Dever, Mohler, and Duncan in 2013.

Finally, let's not forget how The Gospel Coalition gave Tullian Tchividjian the left boot of fellowship in the way they removed his blog from their website.  Dee discussed it here.  Making statements critical of C.J. Mahaney are obviously a big NO NO with The Gospel Coalition crowd.

And now comes Mark Dever — a key leader in the Neo-Cal movement — stating at a recent conference that he believes "a lot of churches are dysfunctional because their pastors are terrible".  It will come as no surprise to our readers that we wholeheartedly agree; however, some of those terrible pastors (heretofore named) have been closely associated with Dever over the years, which gives rise to the speculation – does he really know what a bad pastor is?  (Hint hint:  What does 9Marks and the Hotel California have in common?)  We'll get to that…

The Christian Post published an article earlier this week recapping an evangelical conference driving home the point that churches need to establish a culture of accountability.  The article begins as follows:

Pastors Mark Dever of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D.C. and Christopher Brooks, head of Evangel Ministries in Detroit, say congregations must uphold their biblical responsibilities as members of the church by creating a "culture of accountability" for their pastors and church leaders.

Speaking at the Evangelical Leadership Summit hosted by the American Enterprise Institute, the two pastors who oversee inner city churches talked about an array of issues concerning pastoral leadership.

"I think a lot of churches are dysfunctional because their pastors are terrible. And I would like to see more healthy pastors leading more healthy churches," Dever said.

By making the above statement, we can only assume that Dever believes the terrible pastors are outside of the 9Marks umbrella.  After all, years ago he self-published a book entitled The Nine Marks of a Healthy Church, which has subsequently been published by Crossway.  It is noteworthy that Joshua Harris wrote the Foreward, and C.J. Mahaney endorsed it with these words:

"This is the best book I have read on this topic of critical importance."

Dever's ministry continues to crank out material on how to establish so-called 'healthy churches'.  Just in time for The Gospel Coalition's New England conference, Crossway has published another 9Marks resource titled Church Elders: How to Shepherd God's People Like Jesus, with TGC featuring a post promoting pushing this latest and greatest book.  So what's it about?  Here is an excerpt from the TGC website:

This book makes plain Scripture’s teaching on eldership. For example, the eight chapter titles actually summarize the biblical job description for an elder: "Don’t Assume," "Smell Like Sheep," "Serve Up the Word," "Track Down the Strays," "Lead Without Lording," "Shepherd Together," "Model Maturity," and "Plead for the Flock" (9). If you’ve read or taught on this subject, you can probably hear verses in your mind as you read those titles. It’s an instructive way to frame up such a short book. The headers that give shape to each chapter teach as well. For example, in the chapter “Track Down the Strays,” there’s a section titled “Five Species of Straying Sheep.” Already curious, aren’t you? Subheaders lead us through descriptions of “Sinning Sheep,” “Wandering Sheep,” “Limping Sheep,” “Fighting Sheep,” and “Biting Sheep” (62–68). [emphasis Deb’s] That’s a great section for a discussion over coffee with a prospective elder or for a team of pastors burdened for the flock.

Church Elders was written by Jeramie Rinne, senior pastor of South Shore Baptist Church in Hingham, Massachusetts and one of the plenary speakers at the upcoming New England conference.

We propose that Rinne has failed to acknowledge a sixth category of 'straying sheep', which we fondly call Savvy Sheep.  One such sheep is Todd Wilhelm, our friend and fellow blogger who resides in Dubai.  No doubt you remember Todd's tragic story.  The leaders of his 9Marks church approached him about heading up UCCD's book ministry store.  When he refused to promote C.J. Mahaney's books, the leaders rescinded their proposal to Todd.  Shortly thereafter, Todd and his wife submitted their resignation letter.  It took six and a half months for their names to be removed from the church roll.  Todd wrote about it here and we discussed it here.  And Mark Dever has the audacity to criticize the SBC for inflating its church rolls! 

Look at how Christians (aka 'sheep') are described in this book.  Some of the descriptors are appalling!  Let's take another look…

Five Species of Straying Sheep . . . “Sinning Sheep,” “Wandering Sheep,” “Limping Sheep,” “Fighting Sheep,” and “Biting Sheep”

Consider who is reading this book…  Pastors and wannabe pastors.  Does this language sound respectful toward the flock?  And the author of the book has the audacity to put as the subtitle "How to Shepherd God's People Like Jesus". 

Now let's revisit that quote by Mark Dever:

"I think a lot of churches are dysfunctional because their pastors are terrible. And I would like to see more healthy pastors leading more healthy churches." 

Obviously, Dever is purporting that the pastors and churches following his 9Marks are 'healthy'.  Based on Todd Wilhelm's testimony, that is definitely NOT the case.  John Folmar and Mark Dever know that there are others out there like Todd.  Based on these heartbreaking testimonies, UCCD appears to be the Hotel California of the Middle East!

As we have said before Caveat Emptor!

Lydia's Corner:   Zechariah 12:1-13:9   Revelation 19:1-21   Psalm 147:1-20   Proverbs 31:1-7

Comments

Mark Dever/9Marks on “Healthy” Pastors and Unhealthy Sheep — 152 Comments

  1. Who gets to define what is ‘healthy’ when it comes to pastors and churches?

    The Pastors in POWER over those churches, of course.

    Care for some roast mutton?

  2. Goat. I am a goat. Better than being sheared like a sheep or sacrificed like a sheep.

    That said, I’d note that today domesticated sheep bred for wool need to be sheared yearly or else their fleece just keeps growing and growing. You can search for “Shrek the Sheep” to see what six years of growth on a sheep looks like.

  3. Quoting directly from the Christian Post article which Deb referenced in the post:

    Speaking at the Evangelical Leadership Summit hosted by the American Enterprise Institute, the two pastors [Mark Dever and Christopher Brooks] who oversee inner city churches talked about an array of issues concerning pastoral leadership.

    “I think a lot of churches are dysfunctional because their pastors are terrible. And I would like to see more healthy pastors leading more healthy churches,” Dever said.

    Dever told The Christian Post that it’s important for congregations to be careful in selecting a pastor, saying that when Jesus said “don’t judge, He didn’t say don’t be discerning.”

    “Congregations have a responsibility to be discerning,” Dever asserted. “One of the ways you begin is by teaching congregations the responsibility they have biblically.”

    Now, I’m confused. Is he saying that congregations actually have authority?

    If he is indeed saying that, by inclusion, the congregation at Mars Hill has responsibility for creating a culture of accountability for its CEO, is he also implying that they actually have some authority to go with this responsibility? Is he equally suggesting that the widespread practice, of demonising any congregation members who dare to speak out or create such a culture of accountability, is wrong? Is he saying that when congregants attempt to stop a pastor lording it over them, it is not the congregant but the pastor who is being rebellious and divisive?

    I think we should be told. Because if he is saying those things, I think he’s right. And I’d like to be among those offering my support (for what little it is worth) because, if he develops that theme to its logical conclusion, he’s going to need all the support he can get against the authoritarian backlash he will encounter.

  4. A quick follow-up point along the same lines.

    Scene 1
    People flock to Mars Hill and generously fund it with tithes and offerings, and in-kind funding such as the donation of their time, for free.

    It is said by many that God is blessing the ministry of Mars Hill’s great founder and senior pastor, who has done so much good and reached so many with the life-changing message of the Gospel.

    Scene 2
    The same people that flocked towards Mars Hill begin to leave Mars Hill and/or cease to pour in the donations (financial and in-kind).

    Meanwhile, the same people that called the donations “God’s blessing on Pastormark’s ministry” now call the withdrawing of those donations “God’s disciplining of Pastormark’s sinful behaviour”…

    … don’t they?

  5. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I think we should be told. Because if he is saying those things, I think he’s right. And I’d like to be among those offering my support (for what little it is worth) because, if he develops that theme to its logical conclusion, he’s going to need all the support he can get against the authoritarian backlash he will encounter.

    This is what they do. And it often works. Remember when all the sex abuse stuff came out concerning SGM? The TGC and others were busy writing articles telling churches how to handle these horrible incidents correctly. (Nevermind, that Mahaney has been part of them for years, was defended and protected by them and one of their poster boys. They just pretended SGM had nothing to do with it. No shame with these guys at all)

    What we are reading is PR Spin. The goal is to look like you are really against what you have defended and protected for years. (Because, of course, those situations were “different” but don’t dare mention them anyway)

    So if he says there are unhealthy pastors out there (while spiritual abuse is becoming widespread and talked about) you can look like you are not one of them and conveniently pretend that all you have done was above board and not like those other unhealthy pastors…..like Mahaney or Driscoll?

    It is called: Deceit.

    (As a side note, I was confused for several years when Dever fans would claim his church had congregational polity. After some digging, it looks to be more along the lines of the early post-Puritan form of “congregationalism” which is not as democratic as it sounds)

  6. Lydia wrote:

    What we are reading is PR Spin.

    Unfortunately, we can’t discount that possibility, can we?

    When I wrote if he is saying those things, I think he’s right and if he develops that theme to its logical conclusion, the operative word was “if”.

  7. Deb, I am glad you guys follow Dever/ 9Marks. I wanted to ask about Open Door church in Raleigh. I see where the 9Marks site lists the church as members of this group. I have a sibling who has been a long time member and he loves the church. I am not out to change him, but he has become very legalistic and IMO rarely says no when the church needs something done. I would say he gets a lot of “respect” there and that helps his sel-esteem. However, he says they are not a 9Marks church and doesn’t even know what that means. I have looked at the “contract” for receiving counseling there ( it is on line), and it is extremely troubling. Anyway, do you know if Open Door is part of 9 Marks? I do know most of the staff at Open Door attended Southeastern Baptist Seminary in Wake Forest. Thanks!

  8. In the 1980s this was first being taught at SWBTS.
    It was like the average person in the pew was too stupid to think for themselves. The professors knew what they were doing. You get into a position you like, you change the thinking of the average person. You can be there for life…it so reminded me of what the Nazis did in Germany in the 1930s in Germany….

  9. @ Ann:
    Well, I had just pulled up the list of 9Marks churches here on North Carolina, and Dee beat me in responding. :-). So there you have it.

    I seem to recall that Open Door went through a big change a while back. I knew people who attended the church, but I’ve lost contact with them.

  10. I’m thinking that if a church is on the 9 Marks list, it’s one to be avoided. After all, the mark of a Christian, according to Jesus is, “By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (John 13:35)

    Love is plainly missing from the vaunted 9 Marks. (Just as it’s missing from Scientology’s vaunted Tone Scale.) Love is obviously not useful to these guys.

  11. The problem often comes down to a church becoming a cult of personality around its pastor rather than functioning as a church. One of the things I have seen, since converting to Catholicism, is that when the pastor is not the center of everything and is never presumed to be there for life or until he chooses a successor, the parishioners are the church. In my diocese (and there are different terms in each one, so this is by no means universal), priests are assigned to one parish for no more than two six year terms. When a new head pastor arrives, sent by the bishop not chosen by a search committee, he has to fit into the church that already exists. And the liturgy takes precedence over the pastor at services so mass is simply not about his personality. Catholics sometimes prefer how one priest says mass over another, but the differences are subtle, because it is just not about the priest.

  12. Deb wrote:

    @ Bridget:
    As someone once suggested, that list of churches could be extremely helpful in deciding which churches to attend.

    I notice Mark’s Hill has quietly been removed. Just a couple weeks ago, after Driscoll went on holiday, they were still *healthy*.

  13. Hey Deebs, I’m sorry I couldn’t articulate what I meant about Sutton Turner on Twitter last night. 😛 I just posted a (slightly) more clear explanation on Throckmorton’s blog, and I’m reposting my comment here:

    Mr. Turner did the right thing.

    Oddly enough, in 2012, I also delivered a detailed letter about the precarious state of finances—to my husband, about our household. My husband’s response was so out of character, so cold to my needs, and so blind to the true state of what was going on in our lives, that I realized *we* as a family were unsustainable. It took a few days to muster up the nerve, but I told him he either needed to be actively looking for a job, or move out until he was ready to do so. It was the beginning of the end of Christian Patriarchy for us.

    My husband did not respond well at first. In our near-decade of marriage, he had refused to get summer employment for almost every single year, leaving me to figure out how to make the budget work, saying he “deserved” the time off because he worked so hard to get a PhD. Our debt accumulated each year.

    I was so emotionally and physically broken by that point that I DIDN’T CARE if God set up some sort of “authority” that had my husband “making the final decision.” If God did, He would have to forgive me, because I was either about to SIN, or certain I would be dead from exhaustion before I turned 35.

    People have (rightly) criticized Turner because he referred to himself as “King” in an authoritative Prophet/Priest/King function. However, the mental and emotional manipulation of Patriarchy is basically a royal mind-f*ck that can’t be recovered from in a night. (Or a “season.”) Turner was still under Driscoll’s “authority.” Which means he had to wrestle with, “How the f*ck does God set up this structure and then all this awful, rotten fruit gets dropped? This system is HURTING people—but didn’t God set it up?”

    I was Sutton Turner.

    I loved and adored my husband so much.

    I loved Jesus more than anything.

    The “Bible” as told through patriarchal lips told me to submit.

    But I was hurting so badly…?

    But we as a family were suffering…?
    But other families weren’t going through this…?
    Surely I’m the one in the wrong.
    Which is why it took me so long break free of that system.

    I’m articulate too–sometimes.

    I could have gone online, or on video, or on paper, or on stage, and told about what a wonderful man my husband was. About how God was working in his life. About how submission was God’s plan, even if it was painful….

    It’s been two years for me too, and only just now am I setting major boundaries, starting counseling, and this is with a husband who was (slowly) willing to change. He didn’t say, “I am the brand.”

    He got a job–delivering Pizzas w/ a PhD for crying out loud.

    The change out of patriarchy has been–and still is—so painful for both of us to come out of. I wish I could talk w/ Sutton Turner and just be like, “Dude, I understand. I wish I didn’t, but I understand.”

  14. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    When people flock, offer and volunteer, it is labeled “God blesses”. It is also labeled “Driscoll succeeds”.

    When people withhold and/or exit, it is labeled “God disciplines”.

    People do the bulk of action but the meaning of it is given away. There’s no sense that God moves with/through, or that Driscoll was one of 15,000; this/that Big-Time Guy gets it all.

    And Dever tries to fix this problem by only giving meaning to people’s initial choice. After that, it is schlepped right back to this/that Big-Time Guy.

    These are peculiar people.

  15. ar wrote:

    One of the things I have seen, since converting to Catholicism, is that when the pastor is not the center of everything and is never presumed to be there for life or until he chooses a successor…

    Or his same-named son “Junior” succeeds him…

  16. Deb

    Yeah – I read the review at TGC.

    Jeramie Rinne. Church Elders: How to Shepherd God’s People Like Jesus.
    Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 2014. 144 pp. $14.99.

    BUT – Even when I agreed with Jeramie Rinne, TGC they refused the comment. 😉
    Here are the two comments, posted twice, they refused to publish.
    ———

    I agree when, in chapter one “Don’t Assume,” page 18, Rinne says…

    “As I noted in the introduction, your first elder-related duty is to investigate wether you sould in fact be an elder, based on the Bible’s qualifications, Don’t assume.”

    I’ve noticed, those are some tuff Qualifications. And, most congregations looking to hire a pastor/elder/overseer, and most who desire to be a pastor/elder/overseer usually “Ignore” or “Twist” the Qualifications in 1 Tim 3:1-7, and Titus 1:5-9.

    And, many who are already pastor/elder/overseers, also “Ignore” or “Twist” the Qualifications.

    What do WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, His Church, DO?
    When WE, His Disciples realize? Someone who calls themself pastor/elder/overseer?
    Does NOT Qualify? NO longer Qualifies?

    Will they, pastor/elder/overseers, who do NOT Qualify, remove themselves?
    And be a good example to WE, His Flock, His sons, His Kids?

  17. Here is a closer look at just three tuff qualifications for elder/overseer from Titus.
    1 – For a bishop (overseer) “Must Be” *Blameless.* 2 – Just. 3 – Holy.

    Titus 1:5-8 KJV
    5 …ordain elders in every city…
    6 If any be *blameless,* the husband of one wife,
    having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
    7 For a bishop “must be” *blameless,* as the steward of God; not self willed,
    not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
    8 a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, *just,* *holy,* temperate;

    1 – That *must be* is the same Greek word. You *must be* born again. Jn 3:7
    *Must Be* – Strongs #1163, die. – It is necessary (as binding).
    *Must Be* – Thayer’s – necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.
    Seems to be a small word but very important. Yes?

    1 – Blameless
    Strongs #410 anegkletos – unaccused, irreproachable, blameless.
    Blameless, Thayers – cannot be called into account, unreproveable, unaccused.
    Blameless, Dictionary – Without fault, innocent, guiltless, not meriting censure.

    2 – Just
    Strongs #1342 – dikaios {dik’-ah-yos} from 1349;
    Thayers – righteous, observing divine laws, innocent, faultless, guiltless.

    3 – Holy
    Strongs #3741 – hosios {hos’-ee-os}
    Thayers – undefiled by sin, free from wickedness,
    religiously observing every moral obligation.

    Now that’s three tough qualifications for pastor/elder/overseers. Yes?

    How many pastor/elder/overseers today, who honestly examine themselves, seriously considering these three qualifications can see themselves as Blameless, Just and Holy, innocent, without fault, above reproach, undefiled by sin, and thus qualify to be a pastor/elder/overseer? And, if they can see themself as *blameless?* Is that pride? And no longer without fault? 😉

    Which Qualifications, are WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, allowed to Ignore?
    Which Qualifications are NOT important?

    If WE, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Sheep, His Kings and Priests, His Body…
    Take seriously the many tough Qualifications in 1 Tim 3:1-6, and Titus 1:5-9…

    The number of Biblically Qualified, pastor/elder/overseers, is quite small.
    😉

    ——–

    I guess they are NOT really interested in these tuff Qualifications for their

    pastor/elder/overseers… 😉

  18. Mark Dever writes about “Healty Pastors”
    “I think a lot of churches are dysfunctional because their pastors are terrible. And I would like to see more *healthy pastors* leading more healthy churches.”

    A little humor is often a benefit – Mark Dever writing about “Healty Pastors???”
    HaHaHaHaHaHa…HeeHeeHeeHee… 🙂 🙂 🙂

  19. Thanks guys! I just have to figure a non-judgemental way of pointing out the 9 Marks connection and encourage him to read about Dever. He has already made up his mind about Open Door and that’s ok. I just want him to look at the information. He has a huge heart, but is a very concrete and black and white thinker. I, on the other hand, am a complete cynic. I love him very much. Maybe we can learn to meet in the middle!

  20. Calvinist Janeway wrote:

    I was Sutton Turner.

    You are a kind, awesome woman and I love your name. When all that was happening with your husband, did you go around and throw multiple people under the bus? here is a comment from Doe at Warren’s blog.

    “He was not repentant during the staff meeting today. Blamed others. His arrogance is only exceeded by his self love. You’ll know repentance when Sutton starts knocking on the doors of the score of families he drove out of ministry. There’s a long bloody trail of hurt, damage and deception of which he is the chief architect.”

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/09/19/sutton-turners-status-at-mars-hill-church-uncertain/#disqus_thread

    Somehow, I do not think that you are anything like Sutton Turner.

  21. senecagriggs yahoo wrote:

    Dr. Dever has apparently pointed out both sides

    Dever apparently believe he is one of those good pastor and pastors a great church. He is blind to the problems of the system that he set up. Todd Wilhelm, TWW hero, comes to mind!

  22. Serena wrote:

    Abused Sheep,” as in abused by the rotten pastor?

    That is another forgotten category. We should have thought of it. Well said! And Dever certainly knows something about that.

  23. Hear ye, hear ye…More new ways to beat the flock. Five easy identifiers ….on sale now…..be the first pastor in your area to rule with the rod of correction.

    I think I ‘ll jump the fence and hang out with the black sheep and the spotted goats.

  24. Calvinist Janeway wrote:

    I was so emotionally and physically broken by that point that I DIDN’T CARE if God set up some sort of “authority” that had my husband “making the final decision.”

    I don’t think enough Christians are appreciative enough on this point, at least not the ones who ride certain hobby horses.

    When I used to have deep, clinical depression, I kept seeing and hearing some Christians say that using medications or seeing a psychologist was sinful or showed a lack of faith.

    So for years, I hobbled along on prayer and Bible reading only.

    After so many years in emotional pain, though, I no longer cared if me using medications or seeing a doctor for depression was wrong or showed a lack of faith. I wanted relief, that was the bottom line. So I went back to a psychiatrist and tried medication again.

    It does get to a point where you abandon spiritual ideals to find a solution that actually works, for whatever issue you’re having.

  25. senecagriggs yahoo wrote:

    Dr. Dever has apparently pointed out both sides; There are bad pastors and there are also bad/toxic churches.

    Based on the sinfulness of man, that seems about right.

    So he thought CJ Mahaney was a “good” pastor and the empire he built and lead was “toxic”?

  26. @ dee:
    Ah.
    ….
    …..
    ….
    No. No I did not. :(. My sincere apologies–I gave Turner the benefit of the doubt, thinking he may have been under the same level of deception I was under. Thank you for giving ME the benefit of the doubt, Dee. <3

  27. senecagriggs yahoo wrote:

    Calvinist Janeway wrote:

    He got a job–delivering Pizzas w/ a PhD for crying out loud.

    Old Joke; What the difference between a Ph.D. and a Pizza? A pizza can feed a family of 5.
    *

    Oh, I’ve NEVER heard that one before!

  28. Lydia wrote:

    senecagriggs yahoo wrote:
    Dr. Dever has apparently pointed out both sides; There are bad pastors and there are also bad/toxic churches.
    Based on the sinfulness of man, that seems about right.
    So he thought CJ Mahaney was a “good” pastor and the empire he built and lead was “toxic”?

    Not sure how you got a CJ Mahaney reference out of my brief post which didn’t reference either CJ or SGM.

  29. I checked out online the ten churches shown on the 9 Marks website as within 10 miles of my home, including church website if any and also google maps to identify which population area they were part of. Interesting thing. Two of the the ten were identified as presbyterian, one of which is fairly large and has been around about ten or fifteen years. Nothing new there. The other is small but otherwise unremarkable. Yet another lists itself as recent and growing out of a home bible study group, and google shows their “church” as a large upscale single family residence in a neighborhood of similar homes. Two are older baptist churches, relatively small and in nondescript neighborhoods. The rest are small including non-denominational, grace this or that, independent and are in working class or light commercial neighborhoods, as far as I can tell.

    Only the one largish presbyterian church would be on anybody’s list of major impact churches in this area, and we have probably 30 or 40 “influential” churches is this town.

    In other words, regardless of the number listed on the site, and other than the one rather large presbyterian church, this does not look like a “movement” exactly. Some of it looked rather rag tag based on the cited education of the lead pastors and the geographic location. I am thinking, maybe this won’t catch on too much.

  30. @ Nancy:

    What does it mean to be a 9 marks church? Do they pay a fee to them to be listed? Do they only use their materials? Does anyone know how this works?

  31. senecagriggs yahoo wrote:

    Not sure how you got a CJ Mahaney reference out of my brief post which didn’t reference either CJ or SGM.

    Jimmy

    You know precisely how she got there. Since Dever let Mahaney hide behind his coattails it is logical to assume that CJ is Dever’s “kind of pastor.”

  32. Mae wrote:

    I think I ‘ll jump the fence and hang out with the black sheep and the spotted goats.

    We are a heckuva a lot more fun.

  33. senecagriggs yahoo wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    senecagriggs yahoo wrote:
    Dr. Dever has apparently pointed out both sides; There are bad pastors and there are also bad/toxic churches.
    Based on the sinfulness of man, that seems about right.
    So he thought CJ Mahaney was a “good” pastor and the empire he built and lead was “toxic”?

    Not sure how you got a CJ Mahaney reference out of my brief post which didn’t reference either CJ or SGM.

    Seriously? You cannot figure that out? I would not expect you to reference CJ Mahaney fleeing to a 9 Marks “healthy” church in any of your comments.

  34. Lydia, I second your question. How does this 9 Marks work? Also, why has a church like Open Door not have their affiliation anywhere on their website? It’s like 9Marks claims Open Door, but Open Door doesn’t claim 9 Marks. Deebs, can ya’ll answer our questions? 🙂 Ann

  35. @ Ann:
    Just goes to show you can’t judge a church by its name. 😉

    I don’t know how the affiliation works, but it’s worth looking into.

  36. Ann,

    I have a hunch that your sibling is as happy as a clam at his church. Why? Because his gender allows him privileges not afforded to females in that same setting. 😉

  37. I gotta find a new church tomorrow (thanks to moving) and I am so nervous about that. Sigh. What’s that axiom about bad apples?

  38. Daisy wrote:

    It does get to a point where you abandon spiritual ideals to find a solution that actually works, for whatever issue you’re having.

    Jesus didn't use the word "spirit" as a euphemism for "bull$###" (ed.), so if it doesn't work it's not spiritual. (I hope you don't mind my violently agreeing with you, Daisy, but I needed to let off steam there.)

  39. Victorious wrote:

    Caitlin, TWW hosts an E-Church each week in case you don’t find one soon. I attend pretty regularly and love it!

    I’m hoping to find a meatspace church because we’re out in the country and church is literally the only social outlet available to us. Of course, that’s part of what makes me nervous, setting ourselves up to having only one group of friends and whatnot, but since I’m unemployed and my husband telecommutes…. Fortunately this is a short period in the long-run. E-Church though has been supplementing my spiritual needs for a while now!

  40. @ Daisy:

    Amen, Daisy. I'm so sorry you had to go through this. If more people would look at the FRUIT of certain teachings, they might say, "I do not think that means what you think it means." <3

  41. dee wrote:

    Mae wrote:

    I think I ‘ll jump the fence and hang out with the black sheep and the spotted goats.

    We are a heckuva a lot more fun.

    Didn’t this itinerant Rabbi from Nazareth get in serious trouble for snubbing the Righteous God Squad types to hang out with messed-up losers?

  42. dee wrote:

    Dever apparently believe he is one of those good pastor and pastors a great church. He is blind to the problems of the system that he set up.

    “What do you mean, ‘there’s something wrong with The System?’
    IT WORKS JUST FINE FOR ME!”
    (Sez the guy at the top of the heap holding the whip.)

  43. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Didn’t this itinerant Rabbi from Nazareth get in serious trouble for snubbing the Righteous God Squad types to hang out with messed-up losers?

    Yes! He sure did! Good word, HUG!

  44. Daisy wrote:

    It does get to a point where you abandon spiritual ideals to find a solution that actually works, for whatever issue you’re having.

    What kind of spiritual ideals can be ideals if they interfere with healing? Are not people more important? I believe (ed.) He had a bit to say about that in the healing on the sabbath incident.

  45. dee wrote:

    senecagriggs yahoo wrote:
    Not sure how you got a CJ Mahaney reference out of my brief post which didn’t reference either CJ or SGM.
    Jimmy
    You know precisely how she got there. Since Dever let Mahaney hide behind his coattails it is logical to assume that CJ is Dever’s “kind of pastor.”

    Sigh, you’re reaching WAY beyond what I commented.

  46. Caitlin:

     Actually, you may find that country churches are void of this nonsense. My husband and I have had wonderful experiences in those kinds of churches.

  47. @ Deb:

    I’m hoping so! Everyone we’ve met here have been really nice, and there’s none of that faux-tellectualness in the pastors I know from the area that I’ve learned to see as a major red flag.

  48. And there’s also the “beardie” or “bearded knit hat”, which is inclusive of women ! (you’ll have to google it). Keeping the sheep shorn…

  49. dee wrote:

    the black sheep sweater for those who are different.

    That sweater looks distinctively grey – wouldn’t want that either would we ?

  50. @ Deb:

    Thank you, Deb. I think the hardest part is that my husband joined the UMC after being Catholic all his life when he started dating me AND is not from the South. Basically that means that I’m the one navigating the few websites I can find, trying to both read up on their beliefs and get a feel for the worship style. I’m not sure how my High Church Honey would take foot-washing and speaking in tongues. Me? I’ve seen it and it can be a very powerful thing, though I’m too introverted to like the Pentacostal style of worship on a regular basis.

  51. @ Caitlin:

    Episcopalians are more like methodists than baptists or such are like methodists, and they sure are more like catholics than any other protestant group is like catholics. You might want to check it out.

  52. @ ar:

    “The problem often comes down to a church becoming a cult of personality around its pastor rather than functioning as a church.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    what does “functioning as a church” mean?

    I would say that the answer to that is largely a mixture of what a person is emotionally comfortable with and the expression of their stylistic preferences. “Church” is defined by the mental images we have from our own direct experiences (as shown in art/historical illustrations, television, movies, and time spent in a church)

    if all is boiled down to the grit of authority on the subject, it is more than one person seeking God and good.

  53.   __

    “Bearing Precious Seed?”

    hmmm…

      It would apoear that Reverend Mark Dever has apparently continued to give aid and comfort to a proverbial pastoral abuser who took flight to avoid possible prosecution.

    Has Reverend Mark Dever taught other pastors to do the same?

    huh?

    Birds of a feather?

    What?

    To corrupt the house of God, and His pulpit?

    Gump!

      Is it any wonder that kind folk suffer & receive harm, and loose heart?

    Krunch!

    SKreeeeeeeeeetch !

      Rise up, Oh! Lord, Give ear, N’  bring assistance to all those touched by this man’s apparent brutal thoughtlessness.

    The heart is heavy, N da weariness very grave, your precious seed lies fallow upon this rocky pastoral ground…

    Can there be no remedy, Oh Lord?

    (tears)

    Your lit’l sparrow,

    Sopy

  54. Lydia wrote:

    What does it mean to be a 9 marks church? Do they pay a fee to them to be listed? Do they only use their materials? Does anyone know how this works?

    Check the 9 Marks website. It states that the churches are self-selected through affirming both the 9 Marks Mission Statement and the T4G Affirmation & Denials. It further states the churches are minimally screened by the 9 Marks staff and churches listed on the website should not be viewed as an endorsement.

    All this seems to read like 9 Marks is trying to cover its you know what if there is a problem. I also checked the website of a couple of churches in my area that are listed on the 9 Marks website. One lists 9 Marks as a resource and the other doesn’t mention 9 Marks at all.

    Sound confusing? You bet!

  55. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    That’s okay. I find it sad and funny that a lot of American Christians get up in arms and object to Christians using medications or doctors for mental health problems, but are fine with Christians using physicians over things like diabetes, glasses for correcting near sighted vision, etc.

    And the just the overall point that if you find a solution that actually works (that does not involve Bible reading, prayer, or faith), you’re not supposed to use it.

    That sounds so pious, but once you get low enough, or in enough pain, you really stop caring if other Christians think God approves or not of whatever the fix is. That’s the hard truth.

  56. Nancy wrote:

    What kind of spiritual ideals can be ideals if they interfere with healing? Are not people more important? I believe (ed.) He had a bit to say about that in the healing on the sabbath incident.

    I agree with you.

    I just remember during the 20+ years I had depression and anxiety (I’m over the depression but still deal with anxiety), I read a lot of Christian content about both topics, and listened to sermons about them.

    In all that content, I almost always heard from Baptists and evangelicals that using doctors or medications for those things was sinful, or it was a “cop out,” or showed a lack of faith.

    I was always being encouraged by these sources to be distrustful of psychology, psychiatry, and medication.

    These people really feel that if a Christian has a mental health problem that their only recourse should be to turn to God only, which means do things like daily Bible reading, prayer, and going to church.

    And that attitude reminds me of Tom Cruise Scientology people ranting against psychiatry, some Far East religions that teach all sickness is but an illusion, and some Christian groups (like some Word of Faith or Christian Scientists) who teach similar stuff – it’s all an illusion, don’t admit that you have a sickness, just read your Bible more.

    The Bible is valuable, it has some important ideas to convey, but, it alone didn’t help me during all the time I had depression.

    I think the same attitudes come into play about domestic violence and many other topics, a lot of Christians think you’re supposed to be stoic, just soldier through your trial, and rely on nothing but prayer and Bible reading.

  57. (off topic for the specific post but maybe not the blog as a whole)

    I am posting this because I find the gender angle interesting, not so much the fact that this is about Muslims.

    It turns out that male members of ISIL (or ISIS or whatever they call themselves) are terrified of female soldiers and will run from them in battle.

    I find this interesting, because some of their views are sexist towards women, and you have American Christian gender complementarians frown at the idea of women fighting against men in combat (I’ve heard them say on radio shows and blogs that American women should not serve in combat positions).

    Terrified of Losing 72 Heavenly Virgins, Islamic State Fighters Reportedly ‘Run Away’ from a Certain Type of Soldier
    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/09/21/the-surprising-reason-islamic-state-fighters-reportedly-run-away-when-they-come-up-against-female-soldiers/

    Some quotes from the article.

    “The issue is of some relevance, especially in Iraq, where female recruits are among the ranks of the Kurdish peshmerga forces, now fighting the Islamic State jihadist group.

    … Royce … heard at a meeting with the Kurdish foreign minister that female fighters were “laughing” when they saw Islamic State jihadists flee from them.

    “I think [the Islamic State] were more afraid of us than of the men,” a female Kurdish fighter named Tekoshin told AFP, the New York Post noted. “They believe they’ll go to hell if they die at a woman’s hands.”

  58. I read the article further, and another one about it, and the motivations listed by some of these Kurdish lady fighters is also interesting.

    Some of the women fighters are mothers, they left their small children at home with other family, to go and fight.

    The reason some of these ladies say they fight against ISIL is because they are ticked off at how ISIL mistreats women (forcing women captives into the sex trade, forcing women to wear head to toe covering if they don’t want to, forced female genital mutilation, forcing young girls to marry men, etc).

    Another article said many of the lady fighters have college degrees or attended military academies and fought in previous wars.

  59. dee wrote:

    Here it is-the black sheep sweater for those who are different. We must buy one!

    Dare I ask dee? Made for pennies on the dollar in China with a huge mark-up here in our gated Elysium?

  60. OOPS! didn’t see Deb’s comment. Can I plead plausible deniability for wondering out loud too soon?

  61. @ Nancy:

    I went to an Episcopal school 1-12th grade, so me and the Episcopalians are tight. There’s one here that we might try out next week. The church we went to today was very much like what we left in terms of worship style (a UMC) but the average age is easily twice ours. Most of what we want is to find a place where we can meet people our age, or thereabouts. The UMC also has a contemporary service, so that might be a younger-person-heavy service. We’re also considering going to Wednesday night services at a largish Pentacostal church, where they have a 20-something ministry.

    We’re here until my husband gets a permanent job, so hopefully not past Christmas. It makes the decision a bit easier. It’s a short period of time.

  62. And here it is, also check out the first comment by ‘Southerner’ – *boom* (a huge ‘YES’ from me)

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/09/21/a-2008-prophetic-word-about-mark-driscoll-from-australia/

    A further comment, I have never read this before re: choosing elders, anywhere, “he would be asked about his prowess and regularity in the bedroom”. A commenter confirmed this and added further detail. Ticks the box for controlling cult-like behaviour.

    Saw the French movie, “Farewell” on the weekend (will be right up HUGs alley) re: Vetrov’s leaks from the USSR in the early 1980’s. He revealed that bedrooms of Western agents were bugged, and if it was confirmed they weren’t having regular sex with their wives, Soviet ‘women with short skirts’ were sent in to compromise the agent. Driscoll is operating right out of the Russki playbook in possibly seeking to prevent any sex scandals in his Mark’s Hill churches. Or perhaps he just likes listening to the intimate details of others. Why why why did elders submit to this?

  63. How about the “taken advantage of sheep”. I see a terrible tendency for pastors to wants lots of service and time, not appreciating the inconvenience and sometimes hardship this causes. There were lots of liberties taken while I performed a certain church job, and I couldn’t believe that no one ever seemed to feel convicted about the lack of thoughtfulness. It was a situation that the pastor himself was involved with. When I finally couldn’t take it anymore and found a gracious way to quit this job, I never even got a thank you. I’m sorry, I cannot and will not enable such dysfunction for what was really just a feather in the pastor’s cap. Some would say this is a bad attitude on my part. Sorry, but never expressing appreciation and taking liberties that inconvenience an entire family is not okay. I won’t be a part of such dysfunction. At some point it was robbing my joy at church and I had to quit that job.

  64. @ Haitch:

    Kind of reminds me of that old Tom Cruise movie The Firm. All the lawyers, at least the young associates, had their houses bugged so they knew what was going on the marriage and any work discontent. Not allowed to quit. People mysteriously found dead who knew something. People tempted with a mistress to be kept quiet, lest they lose their family.

  65. Am I the only one who feels that some pastors/authors take the whole “sheep” metaphor a little too far?

    I’ve heard sermons and read books and articles where the author references actual factoids about bovid behavior and anatomy and then attempts to draw out some sort of application for church life.

    I’m not sure that Jesus meant the metaphor to be taken to such an extreme.

  66. “Am I the only one who feels that some pastors/authors take the whole “sheep” metaphor a little too far?”
    +++++++++++++++++

    No. You and I are both saints of the most high God. We are friends of God. I fully embrace the dignity of it.

  67. Deb wrote:

    Ann, I have a hunch that your sibling is as happy as a clam at his church. Why? Because his gender allows him privileges not afforded to females in that same setting.

    reminds me of "another jesus" as in: For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached… 2 Cor 11:4 (KJV)

    Their jesus is the misogynistic pimp one that drives expensive car and owns all the women, giving them to whomever he wants to, to do whatever they want with, and all the men want to be like pastor pimp who shepherds just like him, they do anything he asks and give him all the money he wants.

  68. Daisy wrote:

    These people really feel that if a Christian has a mental health problem that their only recourse should be to turn to God only, which means do things like daily Bible reading, prayer, and going to church.

    I think this paragraph hits the nail on the head.

    “God”, to the authoritarian system of church, is imprisoned within a limited range of officially “religious” or “spiritual” activities. They may be sacraments, church-service activities, emotional worship experiences or something else depending on denomination. (As someone said to me in a small-“c”-charismatic setting here recently – “You’ve got to have a progression of songs to bring us into the presence of God” – ?!?!)

    The fact that we (from time to time) hide in churches doesn’t meant that God is forced to hide with us.

  69. “Fighting Sheep,” and “Biting Sheep”

    That’s not the kind characteristic of sheep I am familiar with. Now wolves do display such characteristics …

  70. Mr.H wrote:

    Am I the only one who feels that some pastors/authors take the whole “sheep” metaphor a little too far?

    The ones who really really like the taste of fresh roast mutton?

  71. Ken wrote:

    “Fighting Sheep,” and “Biting Sheep”
    That’s not the kind characteristic of sheep I am familiar with. Now wolves do display such characteristics …

    😆

  72. Deb wrote:

    Never heard of Shaun the sheep. We’re missing out here in America.

    He’s from Aardman Animations, who gave the world Wallace and Gromit, and in fact featured in A Close Shave.

    A curious fact about the YouTube clip linked above – for some reason, it’s played back at a slow speed. The theme song (sung, incidentally, by Vic Reeves) is in a conspicuously lower key than it is on the telly!

  73. @ Ken:

    You’ve got me going now. Just Googled ‘biting sheep’, and this is the first thing that came up.

    http://thesesheepbite.com

    Here’s information about the website:

    “It’s unlikely that a single church will escape it altogether. No one is immune. No pastor is safe from it. No church leader can afford to remain ignorant of it.

    It’s happening right now!

    These Sheep Bite is a frank look behind the scenes at the unknown and dark side of the modern pastor’s and church leader’s life. This site offers a chance to dialogue on the problem and together we’ll share practical and effective solutions on how to stop this abuse. We’ll discuss common misperceptions of right “Christian” behavior and show how courageous action on the part of a few will prevent the destruction of the body of Christ.

    To keep an even playing field, we’ll also be discussing killer clergy and pastors who prey on their congregations.

    If you love your church, pastor, and leadership, join in the conversation.”

    At least they acknowledge that there are ‘killer clergy’ and pastors why prey on their flocks. ;-)

  74. Mr.H wrote:

    Am I the only one who feels that some pastors/authors take the whole “sheep” metaphor a little too far?

    I agree. And far too many ‘pastors’ whose primary goals are to shear the sheep, fleece the flock and neuter the sheep.

  75. @ Deb:

    The “These_Sheep_Bite” website is relevant, though, for the same reasons that TWW is. We first heard the phrase “sheep bite” from two friends of ours who have been faithfully serving in small congregations for many years. And therein lies the rub: the leaders who are the victims of “sheep bite” are, by their very nature, not seekers after fame or fortune and are therefore not prominent. They don’t have a policy of removing people who cross them or won’t line up with their vision, but of pastoring whoever is in the congregation whoever they are.

    Where this happens, the pastor is not the leader. The leaders may be an influential deacon’s court (and it is called that among Scottish baptist congregations if not elsewhere!) or simply an undeclared, but very definite, inner circle of long-standing members whose primary concern is to see to it that “their” church continues to suit their tastes. And it is “their” church, in the same way that Mars Hill “belongs” to Park Fiscal.

  76. Why am I always saying “on the other hand”? Do I have a wart on my nose or something? Well, whatever, “on the other hand.”

    Two pastors ago my little-ish 150+ year old church had some sheep bite complaints from the new pastor, almost as soon as he got there. I actually heard it from the pastor’s wife, but whatever. I had never heard the term before, but it seemed apparent that the others had heard the term. I never did find out the specifics of the complaints, but it turned out that this pastor got in a lot of trouble from the get go, notified the powers that be that he wanted to be moved at the end of the year and before it was over the district superintendent had to come have a called congregational meeting to address the issue.

    In this case the pastor had some personal problems of his own which were interfering with his work but not derived from his work. More changes than just the pastor were made, and then the church kept on keeping on, bruised but breathing. The pastor that followed that one stayed 5 years and had no serious problems, and the one here now is not having that sort of trouble. ( Probably pastoring is always problematic at some level.)

  77. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    I saw this up close and personal almost a decade ago at a former church. I will be doing a book review soon and will provide a brief summary. It took me several years to get over it.

  78. This sheep – shepherd metaphor has gone much too far. There is only one Shepherd. All the rest of us including pastors, celebrity pastors included, are still sheep. Fortunately most pastors understand this.

  79. JeffT wrote:

    Mr.H wrote:

    Am I the only one who feels that some pastors/authors take the whole “sheep” metaphor a little too far?

    I agree. And far too many ‘pastors’ whose primary goals are to shear the sheep, fleece the flock and neuter the sheep.

    That sums it up nicely.

    I don’t recall Jesus complaining about, “sheep bites” , but rather laying his life down for them.
    Our former pastor, at our former church, used to accuse the members of being carnal. When I questioned him on that statement his excuse for using that term was because members weren’t involved enough in the activities of the church, but rather enjoying “pleasures” outside of church activities. He was a sheep beater IMO, always reminding the congregation how far short they fell from living a life devoted to the church family.

  80. @ Deb:
    Well, to echo Churchill, there are those who are a sheep in sheep’s clothing. 🙂

    Talking of sheep, there is the famous House of Commons remark by Denis Healey that being attacked by Geoffrey Howe (a very quietly spoken Conservative minister) was ‘like being savaged by a dead sheep’

    You cannot seriously have never experienced Shaun the Sheep. It’s even over here in Germany, possibly because the complete absence of dialogue means no synchronised translation is necessary.

    That’s enough levity for now, had better get back to something deep, spiritual and serious …

  81. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    The “These_Sheep_Bite” website is relevant, though, for the same reasons that TWW is. We first heard the phrase “sheep bite” from two friends of ours who have been faithfully serving in small congregations for many years. And therein lies the rub: the leaders who are the victims of “sheep bite” are, by their very nature, not seekers after fame or fortune and are therefore not prominent. They don’t have a policy of removing people who cross them or won’t line up with their vision, but of pastoring whoever is in the congregation whoever they are.

    Where this happens, the pastor is not the leader. The leaders may be an influential deacon’s court (and it is called that among Scottish baptist congregations if not elsewhere!) or simply an undeclared, but very definite, inner circle of long-standing members whose primary concern is to see to it that “their” church continues to suit their tastes. And it is “their” church, in the same way that Mars Hill “belongs” to Park Fiscal.

    Actually I’ll go a bit further, I have a hunch these types of biting sheep in their little fiefdoms who wield power in the form of initial pastor employment, then hold the purse strings and dictate their traditions and theological bent, I suggest may be more prevalent in rural settings than urban. Not sure though. And for the damage that they can wreak on pastors and the rest of the congregation, I wish someone like Mark Driscoll on them. Just desserts and all that. Sorry, my inner MMA has come to the fore. Glad I got that off my chest now…

  82. @ Mae:
    Yes, Christians are referred to by Jesus as sheep. But within that farming metaphor, there are sheep, and goats and wolves. And Jesus is the Great Shepherd. Are modern-day pastors Sheep? Or goats? Or ravening wolves. One thing we do know is that as Christians, they are supposed to be sheep themselves, not some higher order creature. We like the Israelites of old call for a king other than the KING, and then we complain when he abuses us; we call for an intermediary shepherd other than the Great Shepherd, and then we complain when he eats us.

    There is no intermediary between man and God but Christ Jesus.

  83. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    Apologies for the weird quality of the clip. I was using the pc that doesn’t have sound set up. Note to self: don’t assume it’s ok just cause it looks ok.

    @ Flicker:
    Good comment.

  84.   __

    “Religious Pastoral Eboli ‘Spiriting’ To A Community Near You, Perhaps?”

    We have a biblical obligation to attend a 501(c)3 religious non-profit corporation/business acting as a ‘christian church’?

    hmmm…

      Yes, we are admonished from scripture to gather in Jesus’ Name as believers, to worship God, and love one another,

    sure, ok.

      wait.

    …this can hardly mean what many of today’s “christian churches”, for the most part, have become, -private businesses with officers, bank accounts, property possessions, lawyers, security personnel, membership contracts, non-disclosure agreements, area limitations on planting new churches, agreements not to sue pastoral staff, lack of congregational representation, unreasonable demands on personal income, and questionable expenditures, to name just a few…

    huh?

    Demanding strict adherence to a ‘religious’ pecking order, N’ toxic theology, while ‘pretending’ to represent “G.o.d.”?

    What?

    Where pastoral staff have taken on the characteristics of proverbial religious terrorists, placing women in subjugation under strict adherence to perceived biblical legality?

    (bump)

    Accountability?

    (grin)

    hahahahaha

    Skreeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch !

    (only in your dreams)

    (sadface)

    …shepherding the flock of God among you while exercising oversight not under compulsion but voluntarily according to the will of God, not for sordid gain, but with eagerness, nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock, so when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory?

    …example(s) for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity?

    hmmm…

    could have fooled me.

    Have you strengthened the weak, or healed the sick or bound up those that are injured? Have you brought back the strays, or searched for the lost? 

    No. 

     “A monstrosity it is to see the highest rank joined with the meanest mind, the first seat with the lowest life, a grandiloquent tongue with a lazy life, much talking with no fruit…” -Bernard

    You have ‘ruled’ as LORDS over them given into your care, and that harshly and brutally,, and many have fainted and lost heart.

    (tears)

    GIRD THYSELF LORD!

    AND RISE UP!

    RISE UP!

    …The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of His heart from generation to generation, blessed is the nation who calls upon His Name!

      —> Certainly the Lord looks from His heaven and sêês all this pastoral filth these nefarious pastorial frauds N’ impostors have created, and the invariable carnage it has so sadly produced.

    Millstone, Baby!

    Sopy

  85. @ Melody:
    @ sam h:

    Melody – sam h

    If you enjoyed that post by Jon Zens whos says…
    “In the early church there was no “clergy” and “laity”
    as these words have been used traditionally for centuries.”

    Jon also authored a book…

    The Pastor Has No Clothes:
    Moving from Clergy-Centered Church to Christ Centered Ekklesia

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Pastor-Has-Clothes-Clergy-Centered/dp/0982744641

    From the Amazon blurb…
    Protestantism carries on with the practice of making the “pastor” the focal point in church. In The Pastor Has No Clothes, Jon Zens demonstrates that putting all the ecclesiastical eggs in the pastor’s basket has NO precedent in the New Testament…

    Jon dismembers the traditional pastor doctrine from various angles…

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
    them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
    and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
    John 10:16

    If not now? – When?

    One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

  86. Melody – sam h

    And, here is an Ex-pastor who left the system after 33 years, saying…
    **There aren’t any church pastors in the New Testament,**

    The Glass Pastor – “Casting Off The Task-Masters”
    http://theglasspastor.wordpress.com/2013/08/09/casting-off-the-task-masters/

    “Don’t get me wrong, for my part I did my best to play the role of ‘pastor’, but I always knew that I would not be able to really pull it off. First of all, I didn’t really buy it. **There aren’t any church pastors in the New Testament,** and I could never get past that.”

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **THEIR shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

  87. Melody – sam h

    And, here is another Ex-pastor who resigned after two years, saying…
    “The bible gives no indication whatsoever that the modern pastorate should exist in its current form. Therefore, I had to resign. There’s no going back.”

    “I’ve Resigned from Professional Pastoring – Four years Later”
    http://eric-carpenter.blogspot.com/2014/08/why-i-resigned-from-professional.html

    “I couldn’t remain a salaried pastor. After several months of study, prayer, and struggle, I decided that I simply had to resign. I could not in good conscience continue to either receive a salary or continue to be a modern day pastor. There just isn’t any biblical basis for either.”

    —————–

    Seems the only one in the Bible, who was called…
    Or had the “Title.” Or was reffered to as – Shepherd/Leader/Reverend…
    IS…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

  88. @ Flicker:

    Very well said…
    “We like the Israelites of old call for a king other than the KING, and then we complain when he abuses us; we call for an intermediary shepherd other than the Great Shepherd, and then we complain when he eats us.

    There is no intermediary between man and God but Christ Jesus.”

  89. Melody – sam h

    If you enjoyed that post by Jon Zens whos says…
    “In the early church there was no “clergy” and “laity”
    as these words have been used traditionally for centuries.”

    Jon also authored a book…

    The Pastor Has No Clothes:
    Moving from Clergy-Centered Church to Christ Centered Ekklesia

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Pastor-Has-Clothes-Clergy-Centered/dp/0982744641

    From the Amazon blurb…
    Protestantism carries on with the practice of making the “pastor” the focal point in church. In The Pastor Has No Clothes, Jon Zens demonstrates that putting all the ecclesiastical eggs in the pastor’s basket has NO precedent in the New Testament…

    Jon dismembers the traditional pastor doctrine from various angles…

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
    them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
    and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
    John 10:16

    If not now? – When?

    One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

  90. Are we were struggling in a dysfunctional 501(C)3 non-profit religious corporate and social system that has taken on a life of its own, and one oerhaps that runs counter to any possibility of finding ‘the true grace of God’ in our midst?

  91. Some of the best communion services you can find are just food cooked on a campfire. And some of the best “preaching” can be found in a duck blind.

    The church gathers. It can’t help itself, because we are not all hermits. It gathers.

    We commune, we wash each others feet, either physically or metaphorically, we baptize by sharing Christ.

    Sometimes we organize to get the job done, but that isn’t NECESSARY.

  92. @ Sopwith:
    The 501(c)3 issue is a modern unconstitutional impediment, like a poisoned lolipop, to Christian functioning. But it wouldn’t be a problem at all if churches (that is, Christians congregating) hadn’t already established themselves as institutions with a paid ministerial staff. There are some guys who spend their lives studying Scriptures and Christian history and such, and somehow they and their families should be fed and clothed and housed. Selling the fruit of your life’s studies as bound books seems a reasonable and acceptable way of doing it, just for one way.

    But the entire congregation is called to minister to each other within the body. Each individual is given various gifts which (in my view) it is a sin to conceal or withhold from the rest of the body. And Jesus said that men will know we are His disciples by our love for one another. Though there are Biblical mentions of paying messengers or Apostles or travelling evangelists and so forth (presumably) for their time and effort, Paul (probably the greatest of these) notably rejected this, for godly reasons, and set a deliberate Christian example.

    In my own experience, the most Christ-like churches had no pastorate: One had a pastor split the chruch over finances and absconded with half the congregation and (I think) the church funds, and the remaining very samll group of congregants could never find a replacement pastor, and guided themselves, and pretty much gave up trying to find one, and incidentally were subsequently able to give (again, I think) $86,000 to the local needy the next year instead of paying a pastor’s salary; and the other just didn’t believe in a pastorate as such and had five elders that rotated through the pulpit. In both these congregations there were plenty of trained knowledgeable mature Christians who acted as elders and excellently filled any “pastoral” functions, including teaching about holiness, correction, counselling, encouragement, and distributing to the poor, and funding any missionary work.

    And what is perhaps most important, there was no personality cult of (even subconscious) worshipful awe and respect given to the top dog, so to speak, who ran all things and upon whose every word people hung.

    I would be attending either of these congregations today, if circumstances had not required me to move again.

  93. A. Amos Love wrote:

    @ Flicker:

    Very well said…
    “We like the Israelites of old call for a king other than the KING, and then we complain when he abuses us; we call for an intermediary shepherd other than the Great Shepherd, and then we complain when he eats us.

    There is no intermediary between man and God but Christ Jesus.”

    yes amen. i am so glad you all posted these references to pastors that ‘pastor’ no longer. for years people have been praying for the church and i see this as God’s answer, a move of the Holy Spirit tearing down and building up His true church, calling people out and into a walk with Jesus the One Shepherd! And sopwith, i appreciate your posts, very edifying!

  94. @ Flicker:
    And I would also add that these two congregations were very social and sociable, and very studious and disciplined. They had the examples before them of their own fellows studying, and seeking know things, and everyone seems to have followed suite. And they didn’t have an oh-he’s-a-professional-I-could-never-be-like-him attitude.

  95. And also, just like commenters on this blog, there was quite a diversity of views on various scriptural or doctrinal points, and there was no one to tell one group or another that they were wrong, that the official church position was such-and-such and that they had to adopt this position or be second-class members.

  96. @ Haitch:

    Thanks for that link to Eric’s post.
    “All Salaried Pastors Everywhere, Please Resign!”

    …The salaried pastorate inadvertently keeps the church shackled. A damaging co-dependent relationship exists between paid pastors and the people in the pews: the pastor(s) gets paid to “do the work of the ministry” while the people largely sit and watch. Despite good intentions, this relationship stifles the good that the church can do and the wondrous thing it can be…

  97. linda

    Very true…
    “Some of the best communion services you can find are just food cooked on a campfire.”

    …. And, coffee time at Barnes & Nobles, fellowshipping with folks from all backgrounds…
    …. Some, NOT wanting anything to do with “Today’s Religious System” ever again.
    …. Some, NOT happy with “The System” But – NOT knowing how to leave…
    …. Lot’s of communion going on. Lot’s of koinonia. Lot’s of fellowship…

    “The church gathers. It can’t help itself, because we are not all hermits. It gathers.”

    …. Yes – WE, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Disciples, His Kings and Priests, His Sheep…
    …. His Called Out Ones, GATHER. Somehow WE, His Kids, find one another…
    …. When, like Abraham, WE, His Sheep, Go Out, NOT knowing where WE are going. Heb 11:8

  98. @ A. Amos Love:
    Thanks for the link to The Pastor Has No Clothes. I read some of the reviews and it seems like it explains a lot of what I’ve been seeing.

  99. @ Flicker:

    Flicker

    Yes…
    “But the entire congregation is called to minister to each other within the body. Each individual is given various gifts which (in my view) it is a sin to conceal or withhold from the rest of the body. And Jesus said that men will know we are His disciples by our love for one another.”

    The Anabaptists agreed with you – And this idea is a killer.

    Here is what you’re seeing that got the Anabaptists in trouble…
    “The Anabaptists took literally the words of Paul in 1 Cor. 14:30-31: “And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.” They called this the “sitter’s right” and calmly implied that they, when moved by inner conviction, had as great a right to speak and to act as any pastor, any priest, any reformer or bishop or pope. This audacity, this “Sitzrecht from the pit of hell,” Martin Luther and his friends believed, could be dealt with only by fire, water, and the sword.”

    This is Info from the book – The Secret of the Strength – About Mennonites, Anabaptists.
    An interesting read – Shows the beginnings, their strengthes and where, in the end, they blew it.
    Free PDF download off the internet. – http://www.gw.org/Sos/Sos.pdf

    Menno, as a Catholic Priest, left “The system,” because Rome believed and acted as…
    “the church stands between God and man”

    Yup – I agree with Menno here. But I now call it “Todays Religious System.” Because, today’s 501 (c) 3, Non-Profit, Tax $ Deductible, Religious $ Corporation, the IRS calls church, is NOT “the Church of God” in the Bible.

    Menno, and the first Anabaptists believed in….
    “man’s freedom of choice and his duty *to obey the voice of Christ* within him.”

    Another Anabaptist said…
    “He who has NOT learned what he knows from God,
    but from men, has a faith that cannot stand.”

    And I know the Anabaptists must have been doing something right. Because, and this one is the killer, I mean this got the Anabaptists persecuted and killed by both Catholics and the Protestant Re-formers. Persecuted and killed. By Catholics, By Calvin and Calvinists, By Luther and Lutherans… My…My… Tsk…Tsk…

    Yup – The Anabaptists also believed “the entire congregation is called to minister to each other”

    Have you ever tried telling a “Senior Pastor?” Or any “Pastor/Leader/Reverend,” being paid by a “501 (c) 3, Non-Profit. Tax $ Deductible, Religious $ Corporation? That ALL believers have the “right to speak and to act as any pastor, any priest, any reformer or bishop or pope?”

    I double dare you… 😉

  100. I am about 20% into “The Pastor Has No Clothes” that you recemmended, and it is sad and a bit angering. Prior to this I have come to believe that all pastors are either deceived, or dishonest, or struggling under a self-imposed handicap of trying to serve a congregation that knows no better than to require a pastor to fulfill the righteousness they don’t want or don’t think they can fulfill themselves, and the direction that should truly come from the Holy Spirit.

    I once belonged to a church that had no pastor and no structure, and we all were pleased, and maybe a little amazed that God provided the vision and direction Himself.

  101. Flicker

    I think I might be in agreement when you write…
    “I have come to believe that all pastors are either deceived, or dishonest,
    or struggling under a self-imposed handicap…”

    Those are some strong, intense, words.
    That today, are NOT received well in most of Christian-dumb.

    Was wondering…

    How did you come to believe that?
    That pastors are deceived?
    That pastors are dishonest?
    That pastors are struggling under a self-imposed handicap?

    What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
    What is “Truth” is NOT always popular