9Marks Attempting “Brand Enhancement” – Guest Post by Todd Wilhelm

"Victims of their heavy-handed, authoritarian abuses (of which I number myself) are taking to social media in ever-increasing numbers to let their fellow pew-sitters hear about the outrageous abuses they have suffered in churches who have implemented the 9Marx manifesto."

Todd Wilhelm

https://twitter.com/9Marks9Marks Logo (Twitter)

Todd Wilhelm, our friend in the United Arab Emirates who blogs at Thou Art The Man, has put together an important post about 9Marks, which he has given us permission to re-publish.

For those who may be new to TWW, Todd contacted us several years ago while he was still a member of the United Christian Church of Dubai (UCCD), a 9Marks affiliated church.  UCCD's senior pastor John Folmar was led to Christ by Mark Dever (which Folmar revealed in an SEBTS chapel message).  Dever and Folmar were colleagues at Capitol Hill Baptist Church for a number of years before Folmar was chosen to lead UCCD. 

Todd, who is an avid reader, was approached by leaders in his church to head up the book ministry (actually, bookstore).  Prior to moving to Dubai, Todd and his wife had been members of a church in Arizona that was affiliated with C.J. Mahaney's Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM).  While stateside, they became concerned about Mahaney and SGM.  When Todd was approached about the book ministry, he explained that he could not promote Mahaney's books.  Given the close friendship between Mark Dever and C.J. Mahaney, you can probably imagine how Todd's position regarding Mahaney was received by the UCCD pastors. 

Church leadership then realized Todd was not the right man for this responsibility.  Not long after, Todd and his wife submitted their resignation letter to the church. The UCCD elders expected the Wilhelm's to join another church in short order since they had signed a membership covenant mandating it.  Todd and his wife wanted to take their time in choosing another church, given their negative experiences.  Six l-o-n-g months went by, and the Wilhelms found out secondhand that their names had finally been removed from the church roll at UCCD.

A couple years ago Todd traveled to Washington, D.C. and Dee and I (along with others in the TWW community who live near D.C.) had the tremendous opportunity of meeting him.  We are so proud of our courageous friend Todd.  Without further ado, here is his post.


9Marks Attempting "Brand Enhancement"

Todd Wilhelm

https://thouarttheman.org/2016/09/18/9marks-attempting-brand-enhancement/

https://thouarttheman.org/2016/09/18/9marks-attempting-brand-enhancement/

https://thouarttheman.org/2016/09/18/9marks-attempting-brand-enhancement/

It is evident that the 9Marx para-church organization has been experiencing an increasing amount of push-back by the proletariat; well deserved I might add. Victims of their heavy-handed, authoritarian abuses (of which I number myself) are taking to social media in ever-increasing numbers to let their fellow pew-sitters hear about the outrageous abuses they have suffered in churches who have implemented the 9Marx manifesto. The video above was a made to advertise a break-out session at the T4G 2016 conference held this past April in Louisville.  The conference marked C.J. Mahaney’s return to big time “Christian” celebrity status and it attracted around 10,000 individuals, many of them pastors. Most of the conference-goers demonstrated no concern that Mahaney, credibly charged with blackmail and covering-up sexual abuse of children in his denomination, was returned to the stage with the blessing and aid of the celebrity preachers they all idolize.  9Marx leader Mark Dever and his trusty lieutenant, Jonathan Leeman, saw this as a perfect chance to indoctrinate the pliable young preachers into the 9Marx way while reassuring them that the horror stories of abuse they may have heard about were simply errors of a few overzealous young preachers who lacked wisdom. (One might rightly wonder what this says about Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, ground zero for 9Marx indoctrination, and the institution of choice for many Mark Dever wannabees.) I give credit to Dever and Leeman for their video. They engage their critics head-on in the folksy, disarming manner that Dever is known for.

There is one problem with Dever’s narrative; the abusive, heavy-handed authoritarian mannerisms prevalent among some 9Marx pastors cannot be relegated solely to the young and inexperienced.

I quit United Christian Church of Dubai over matters of conscience. One major takeaway I gained from my time at the 9Marx United Christian Church of Dubai is that I will never again join a church that requires a “membership contract” or “membership covenant.”  You will find these covenants are being pushed by 9Marx and are becoming ever more prevalent among evangelical churches.  I do not believe that they can be justified biblically. The main purpose of these contracts seems to be to discipline members who have fallen out of the good graces of church leaders.  They particularly like to utilize the clause “We will, when we move from this place, as soon as possible unite with some other church where we can carry out the spirit of this covenant and the principles of God’s Word.” I have had this used against me when I quit UCCD.  UCCD church leadership did not want to remove me from their membership roster because I chose to attend an Anglican church.  I was told by a UCCD elder that the Rector of the local Anglican church was not even a Christian and therefore I was not in compliance with this clause!

In the end, common sense prevailed and they backed down from this crazy accusation.  However, I have another friend who asked to be removed from the membership roster of UCCD because he no longer believed the institutional church model was biblically correct.  He chose to go to a home church.  It boiled down to an issue of conscience.  UCCD excommunicated him, essentially proclaiming they have the right to bind a man’s conscience.

The senior pastor of UCCD is not some young, inexperienced man. I would guess he is in his late forties, a former lawyer who worked for a powerful North Carolina Senator. He was converted by the direct efforts of Mark Dever, went to SBTS to obtain his M.Div and then returned to Capitol Hill Baptist Church where he served as an assistant pastor under Mark Dever for several years prior to accepting the senior pastor’s job in Dubai. Dr. Albert Mohler gave him an award for distinguished work as an SBTS graduate. He remains good friends with Mark Dever, talks to him frequently and has had him in Dubai on three or four occasions for seminars. All this to say that Dever’s characterization of problematic 9Marx pastors does not reside solely with the young, over-enthusiastic pastors short on life experience.  I, therefore, conclude there must be something systemically wrong with 9Marx teachings, particularly as it relates to church membership and discipline.

We are now six months removed from the T4G conference and the break-out session Dever and Leeman conducted on 9Marx doctrines. It would appear that many pastors who subscribe to the 9Marx doctrines are still not getting it right, as stories of abuse continue to surface. The 9Marx moniker seems to be gaining usage among the proletariat while the official 9Marks moniker is losing respect.  Time for Dever’s lieutenant, Jonathan Leeman, to spring back into action and attempt some “brand enhancement”.

This brings me to the impetus for today’s blog. As one who has been combatting both physical and spiritual abuse in the evangelical church, I have been privileged to make many new friends. Many of them are victims and/or family members of victims. One such woman wrote a book review on Amazon’s website on Mark Dever’s “Nine Marks of a Healthy Church.” Below is a screen shot of her review.

https://www.amazon.com/Nine-Marks-Healthy-Church-9Marks/product-reviews/1433539985/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star

https://www.amazon.com/Nine-Marks-Healthy-Church-9Marks/product-reviews/1433539985/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star

https://www.amazon.com/Nine-Marks-Healthy-Church-9Marks/product-reviews/1433539985/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star

https://www.amazon.com/Nine-Marks-Healthy-Church-9Marks/product-reviews/1433539985/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star

Note: For a full description of what Grace experienced at her 9Marx church check out her blog here.

I would say she went easy on her ex-church.  She discovered a convicted ex-offender is attending the church and questions why the pastors and elders have not brought this to the attention of the adults.  Their response is outrageous! They lie to her, saying he is harmless and coming off Megan’s list, refuse to alert the membership to the pervert's presence, and then excommunicate her.  Are you kidding me?  They should be sued for reckless endangerment of church members.  As a minimum, all the men who took part in this travesty of justice should be removed from their positions. This is not easy to do in a 9Marx, elder led church. Typically the senior pastor surrounds himself with a pack of yes-men for elders and the congregation has an impossible task of removing the tyrant.  This being the case the godly members have two options, walk away from their church or cease financial support.

Remember, in the video above, Dever and Leeman are attempting to sell us the narrative that the abusive leadership style is just with a few young, overly enthusiastic pastors.  Grace’s pastor, like mine, was in his late forties.

Leeman utilizes this book review as a teaching moment for the 9Marx faithful, after all, in the video above he states “We’re all going to be in a kind of a learning process about how to do these things well, and I think this is just a part of the growth process for all of us.” Dever then chimes in with a “Yeah, amen.”  Aside from the troubling fact that 9Marx church members are relegated to the status of lab rats while the 9Marx boys are engaged in their learning process, what type of learning process is required to know that, as a pastor, you must warn church members of a convicted sex offender in their midst?  If you don’t understand that you have no business being a pastor.

We suffer no shortage of men in the ministry that are sorely lacking any real world experience. Also sorely lacking is a lick of common sense. They have spent their lives in academia and once they graduate they want to write books and speak at conferences telling us how it’s all to be done.

“Woe also to you experts in the law! You load people with burdens that are hard to carry, yet you yourselves don’t touch these burdens with one of your fingers.”  That’s Jesus speaking, not me. Check it out – Luke 11:46

But I’m getting ahead of myself.  Let’s examine what Leeman has to say. Below is a screen shot from his article.  I suggest you read the article, which can be found here.

https://gbfsvchurchabuse.org/2016/08/25/first-blog-post/

Let me begin with the positive.  The following are some comments Leeman made that I readily agree with.

“Something I appreciate about Mark Dever is that he’s not short on strong opinions, but if you spend any time with him, you’ll discover that he is one of the stronger advocates of Christian freedom I know. I’d even say he cultivates a sanctified irreverence toward so many evangelical false pieties. We’d do well to do the same.”

I like guys with strong opinions, I acknowledged this in an article I wrote two years ago concerning Dever’s views on baptism. Glad to hear he cultivates a sanctified irreverence toward so many evangelical false pieties. I don’t need to do much cultivating, mine are pretty much thriving!

“We want to cultivate the humility and freedom of honest uncertainty. The person who has difficulty saying, “I don’t know,” in the best case, will just come across as a know-it-all. In the worse case, they will give answers where Scripture doesn’t actually give them, and impose on people what should not be imposed.”

I wonder if Leeman gardens as a hobby.  He seems to like to cultivate! I agree with the statement above, just not sure I see much uncertainty emanating from 9Marx.

“The abusive use of authority, as much as anything, is about wanting control and respect. It roots in a kind of idolatry and godlessness.”

True statement. I and hundreds of others who formerly attended 9Marx churches can testify to this.

“Mark 10: Beware of giving more authority to your heroes than to the Bible.”

Amen to that Mr. Leeman. I know of at least 10,000 pastors that need to “cultivate” this truth.

https://thouarttheman.org/2013/06/28/is-9marks-view-of-baptism-biblical/

“There’s a temptation young pastors and 9Marks-types are susceptible to: we can love our vision of what a church should be more than we love the people who comprise it.”

Yep, again, hundreds of hurting, abused former 9Marx members will attest to this fact.  This may be a good place to insert another 9Marx horror story that I have knowledge of.  A small baptist church I attended prior to moving to Dubai was doing well. There were about 150 members. After I had moved to Dubai the pastor left for a bigger church.  He was replaced by a young 9Marx devotee who shortly thereafter brought in an assistant pastor who was rabidly 9Marx. Within about 2 years they managed to decimate the church. Many people left, many deeply hurt.  Membership is now 25-30 people. The two pastors have moved on, where they can continue their learning curve at some other unfortunate church’s expense.  My old church is struggling to keep the doors open.

The following statements I have issues with.

“Anecdotally, most (or all?) of the unfortunate cases of church discipline I have heard about in recent years have occurred in non-congregational churches, where the elders are free to impose their will on the congregation. I’m sure congregational churches have failed in this area as well.”

I totally disagree with you on this Mr. Leeman. Most I have heard about, including the two I have personal knowledge of, are congregational.  Of course, the definition of “congregational” varies greatly.  Your friend at UCCD claims to be congregational, but in reality, it is a (to quote a former member in my care group)  “benevolent dictatorship.” This from a guy who sincerely loved the pastor, but he called a spade a spade. At the time I agreed with his assessment, but I would now drop the first word of the two-word description.

“I don’t often hear criticism with language this strong; maybe one or two other times.”

I am not surprised Mr. Leeman.  You need to get out more.  Seriously, though, I would guess you spend the majority of your time with guys who treat you like MacArthur is treated above.  Additionally, many in your tribe don’t want to hear from people like me on social media. Tim Challies no longer allows comments on his blog. Albert Mohler probably never did.  And then there is this:

https://thouarttheman.org/2016/09/18/9marks-attempting-brand-enhancement/

https://thouarttheman.org/2016/09/18/9marks-attempting-brand-enhancement/

“We should be very reluctant to require anything not expressly set down in Scripture. For instance, the leaders of the Shepherding Movement of the 1970s were rightly concerned about the weak commitment, shallow community, and general worldliness characteristic of so many American churches. But they wrongly required things not required by Scripture, such as membership in a house-group or having life-decisions “covered” by their house-group leader, elder, or pastor. Decisions to be covered included where to live and work, whom to marry, or even whether to make a doctor’s appointment. They also adopted other unbiblical authority structures.

Now, you and I might disagree about what Scripture requires. Fine. But let’s agree that’s the standard.

…Admittedly, a church might require a few things unspecified by Scripture. Our church requires membership classes and interviews and signing a statement of faith to join the church, for instance. It’s our judgment that these are prudential forms for implementing the biblical element of church membership. You have to adopt some form, after all. The Bible doesn’t quite say how to join a church. But beyond these few things, I cannot think of anything else we require not required in Scripture.”

Herein lies the crux of the matter Mr. Leeman. You and I agree that the standard is what Scripture requires. I also agree with your statement that “we should be very reluctant to require anything not expressly set down in Scripture.”  Your membership classes and membership contracts are very hard to justify Scripturally, I am of the opinion that they cannot be justified.  I would even say formal church membership in a local church cannot be justified. Membership contracts along with the misapplication of church discipline are where the majority of the problems within 9Marx churches originate.

A friend of mine wrote the paragraphs below.  He states much more eloquently than I could ever hope to do, the problems with church covenants/contracts.

https://thouarttheman.org/2016/09/18/9marks-attempting-brand-enhancement/https://thouarttheman.org/2016/09/18/9marks-attempting-brand-enhancement/

Additional Information:

Five Reasons to Say “No” to a Church Covenant

Is 9Marks the New Shepherding Movement?

9Marx Experiencing Pushback

Spiritual Abuse Masked as Spiritual Authority

Comments

9Marks Attempting “Brand Enhancement” – Guest Post by Todd Wilhelm — 362 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Thanks Todd Wilhelm for contacting me and writing the excellent article, since I’m “Grace” on Amazon, that’s my review about 9 Marks, and my story about my abusive former church, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (California).

    Thanks Dee and Deb for posting it.

    Finally, thanks to everyone here who deprogrammed me of that stuff that had been shoved down my throat (and others) at my former church, that I knew was wrong, but I couldn’t articulate it. You people gave me friendship, hope, safety and healing.


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    @ Velour:

    Thanks for your courage in speaking out.


  3. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    First!


  4. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Deb wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Thanks for your courage in speaking out.

    Thanks for praying for me, Deb, so that I could speak out.


  5. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Deb wrote:

    @ Jackie Newton: Almost.

    Technically since the story is about me, I must recuse myself from the competition. So indeed — ding, ding, ding — Jackie takes The Gold for the team.


  6. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    A few people who post here have read my former church’s website (Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley, located in California). Here were their thoughts about GBFSV.

    Jack on The Wartburg Watch:
    “Just went to the website of this church [Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley]. The membership contract is a vague rip from Purpose Driven Life but the bylaws are the meat & potatoes!
    In short, this corporation has no members. Members abrogate their rights upon signing the contract.
    Just reading the bylaws lights up every warning alarm on the TWW checklist of what to look for in an abusive church. http://www.gbfsv.org/by-laws
    No doubt new attendees are love bombed before they read the fine print.
    You should write this up as a case study of churches to stay away from.
    It would be interesting to know how you became involved.”

     Statement of Faith
    http://www.gbfsv.org/gbf-statement-of-faith

     Church Distinctives
    http://www.gbfsv.org/our-ministry-distinctives

     Membership Covenant
    http://www.gbfsv.org/becoming-a-member-of-grace-bible-fellowship

     By Laws
    http://www.gbfsv.org/by-laws

    Bill M:
    “BTW, I looked over the website of your former church [Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley], their resources page reads as a veritable who’s who of nefarious organizations discussed here. I also note that least half the elders are staff, this inverts the accountability and put way too much power in the hands of the pastor. The preface of their statement of faith gives me the shivers and don’t get me started on their membership covenant.”
     Resources: http://www.gbfsv.org/helpful-websites
     Elders: http://www.gbfsv.org/elders—deacons
     Statement of Faith: http://www.gbfsv.org/gbf-statement-of-faith


  7. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Velour wrote:

    Thanks Todd Wilhelm for contacting me and writing the excellent article, since I’m “Grace” on Amazon, that’s my review about 9 Marks, and my story about my abusive former church, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (California).

    Leeman will be horrified when he realizes you're a "she" and not a "he". That will totally disqualify your opinion and experiences.


  8. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I read these words and something rang a bell:

    “Across the country, parishioners are now being challenged to take oaths, perform vows and sign covenants.”

    Some time ago, I read an article on a group that formed under the direction of a man called Doug Coe. He had a lot of connections among the power elite in DC and wanted to form core ‘units’ across the country and then the world that involved ‘total commitment’ to Christian government, with an emphasis on ‘loyalty’ to ‘authority’. The article is ‘Jesus Plus Nothing’ by Jeff Sharlett and reading it raised the hairs at the back of my neck.

    I don’t know much about the Shepherding Movement which I understand was VERY controlling, but this new neo-Cal 9 Marks stuff sounds truly evil. I’m wondering, does all this ‘control’ business spring originally from Rushdoony and Vereide and Coe and the young men and women that lived in places like Ivanwald for ‘training’ in ‘loyalty’ ??
    If not, the similarities are still frightening. Today in politics we are seeing a lot of support for a presidential candidate that admires a foreign leader who is a dictator and a strong-man, who has made his ‘enemies’ disappear. There seems to be a real change in our land now, and maybe our country is ripe for ‘authoritarian’ control as seen in the neo-Cal and 9 Marks vision of unquestioning obedience to leadership. (?)
    Is this ‘movement’ larger than we know?

    http://www.academia.edu/5573712/_Jesus_Plus_Nothing


  9. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Just read a bit of your blog Velour, and holy crap! What a bunch of children pretending to be adults! I’m sorry you went through all that. I almost wished I lived in that area so I could make a point of not going there,

    Dee/Deb – have you ever written anything about how to record conversations? If some of these temper tantrums were posted online, these pastors would lose the appearance of being so wise and Godly.


  10. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Minor technical note: The link (above the screenshot) doesn’t lead to Leeman’s article on 9Marks. It leads to Velour’s blog instead. Thought you’d like to know.


  11. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Velour wrote:

    Deb wrote:
    @ Jackie Newton: Almost.
    Technically since the story is about me, I must recuse myself from the competition. So indeed — ding, ding, ding — Jackie takes The Gold for the team.

    Here is the correct link to Jonathan Leeman’s 9 Marks article:
    https://9marks.org/article/dont-be-a-9marxist/

    Deb, Could you please insert the link in the story above to Jonathan’s article?
    Thank you.


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Thanks Todd Wilhelm for contacting me and writing the excellent article, since I’m “Grace” on Amazon, that’s my review about 9 Marks, and my story about my abusive former church, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (California).
    Leeman will be horrified when he realizess you’re a “she” and not a “he.” That will totally disqualify your opinion and experiences.

    Ding, ding, ding.


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    Leeman will be horrified when he realizes you’re a “she” and not a “he.” That will totally disqualify your opinion and experiences.

    Thanks to Deb and Dee for reprinting this article. It will now be viewed by more than the 2 or 3 regular readers of my blog! Thanks also to Velour for her gracious assistance in writing this article.

    Our good friend Mirele, a frequent commenter here and regular picketer of Mark Driscoll’s “church” in Scottsdale, AZ, wrote a comment on Leeman’s blog a few days ago informing him that the comment was made by a woman. I just checked back to see if the comment was still there. It is, and Leeman changed his article to reflect this. So thank, you Mr. Leeman for doing the right thing.

    Corrected version of Leeman’s blog:

    "In a “one-star” Amazon.com review of a 9Marks book, the reviewer shares her experience of being a part of what she calls a 9Marks church. Formally, there is no such thing as a 9Marks church."


  14. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I feel like we are seeing the dynamics of how a religious power structure, much like that of the Catholic church, develops. There is an outlook among all of these interconnected “gospel” groups that is all about authority, power and control. Mr. Leeman’s exhortation to his followers to try to be benevolent authorities does not change the fact that authority is the underlying dynamic and goal. They want those ‘keys of the kingdom,’ they want to hold and possess and administer them. I can imagine that with enough time, power will become consolidated, levels will be established, perhaps even a pope-like figure will emerge at the top. (I mean no disrespect to my Catholic friends; I’m speaking of the authority structure, not individuals’ faith.)

    Yet Christ was adamant that we are not to be like the Gentiles, seeking power and lording it over one another.

    Matthew 20:25-27
    Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave

    God gives his Spirit as he pleases, to whosoever believes. He cannot be contained within human structures and administered, withheld or controlled through human hierarchies.

    John 3:8
    The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

    Jesus left the 99 to seek the one lamb, and Jesus said it would be better to have a millstone hung around one’s neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea than to cause a little one to stumble. Yet, the wounded believers and the little ones who have been brutally sinned against are swept under the rug because the machine has a life of its own and must go on. The conferences must go on, the scheduled speakers must speak (even if they’ve been covering up for child molesters), the books must keep getting published, the money must keep rolling in, the appearances must be kept up. Indeed, once the machine is rolling, it may crush the very ones who created it if they don’t respect its power.

    As the saying goes, “life is what happens to us while we are busy making other plans,” spiritual reality consists of the reality of the little people, souls who God sees and knows, and not the grand plans and outward appearances of organizations who purport to speak for him. God can raise up fancy organizations from the stones, if he so desires, he is not impressed or indebted to anyone. It is how we care for one another that matters.


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    Christiane wrote:

    There seems to be a real change in our land now, and maybe our country is ripe for ‘authoritarian’ control as seen in the neo-Cal and 9 Marks vision of unquestioning obedience to leadership. (?)
    Is this ‘movement’ larger than we know?

    I think and fear that there’s a large chunk of the country and the church that want to turn back the clock culturally – and if it has to be done by force, so be it.


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    siteseer wrote:

    It is how we care for one another that matters.

    Amen.


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    srs wrote:

    Just read a bit of your blog Velour, and holy crap! What a bunch of children pretending to be adults! I’m sorry you went through all that. I almost wished I lived in that area so I could make a point of not going there,
    Dee/Deb – have you ever written anything about how to record conversations? If some of these temper tantrums were posted online, these pastors would lose the appearance of being so wise and Godly.

    Thanks for your support and reading my (new) blog. It was because of The Wartburg Watch and Spiritual Sounding Board that I finally kicked it in gear and started blogging.

    I was really “kicked in gear” by my ex-pastors arranging to have my latest YELP and Google review that were longer taken down. They were logical. My YELP review received 38 votes from people here. The censorship continued and I just thought, I’ll start my own blog and I won’t be beholden to a third party to publish the contents.

    I am about ready to start protests in front of Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley, renting from the Seventh Day Adventists in Sunnyvale, CA. (Tip hat to Mirele for the inspiration of her protesting high-control groups, from Scientology to House of (Mark) Dri$coll.)


  18. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Velour:

    Thanks for letting me know. I have corrected that link. 🙂


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    Deb wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Thanks for letting me know. I have corrected that link.

    Terrific. Thanks, Deb!


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    “We’re all going to be in a kind of a learning process about how to do these things well, and I think this is just a part of the growth process for all of us.” Dever then chimes in with a “Yeah, amen.”

    What they are really saying here is, “Heh, we’re going to hurt some people, destroy some lives and families. Just a little collateral damage. So what.”

    They don’t care if they hurt people, as long as they have control, power, and fame.


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    @ Nancy2:
    So much for AUTONOMOUS Southern Baptist churches…


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    To those of you have gone thru church abuse and stand to tell the story, I applaud you. It’s never easy to tell the story of abuse and to be believed. No matter what type of abuse it is. There will always be people trying to say it never happened. That you are off your rocker, that you don’t know what you are talking about. They will try to discredit you in any and every way possible. Velour my friend, keep up the good work. Mirele, I admire you for all you have done in getting the word out about Driscoll. Keep up the good works my friends. We here at WBW support you and pray for you. The truth is getting out and people don’t like it. Dee, Deb, Tod Wilhelm, and others like them are also doing their best to see that more and more people hear about what is going on in the churches.


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    “UCCD’s senior pastor John Folmar was led to Christ by Mark Dever …”

    Now, this is a phrase – “led to Christ” – that you don’t hear tossed around much in New Calvinist ranks. Leading to Calvinism or leading to reformed theology is a more appropriate way of describing New Calvinist “evangelism” (or I should say proselytizing). Conversion to a system of belief is not the same as converting someone to Jesus. Heck, the New Calvinists don’t even talk about Jesus much! They will tell you that they are “Christ Followers”, but neglect lifting His name above all others in their preaching/teaching.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    They don’t care if they hurt people, as long as they have control, power, and fame.

    “The only goal of Power is POWER.”


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    “Most of the conference-goers demonstrated no concern that Mahaney, credibly charged with blackmail and covering-up sexual abuse of children in his denomination, was returned to the stage with the blessing and aid of the celebrity preachers they all idolize.”

    This a symptom of being a cult-follower. They will adopt whatever the position their leaders (idols) take, even if it means ignoring the facts. If the big dogs want to honor Mahaney, then the pups will too. Instead of agonizing about his return to the spotlight, they applaud it. It’s a spiritual sickness.


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    “We suffer no shortage of men in the ministry that are sorely lacking any real world experience. Also sorely lacking is a lick of common sense. They have spent their lives in academia and once they graduate they want to write books and speak at conferences telling us how it’s all to be done.”

    Education doesn’t produce one ounce of revelation! Speaking and writing from one’s intellect is not the same as bringing forth a word by the Spirit. There is little evidence of Spirit-led leadership in the reformed movement.

    Common sense?! If any of their followers had a lick of common sense, they would be putting their behinds in their past about now. New Calvinism – with its control, intimidation and manipulation of members – is not a healthy spiritual environment.


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    The photo of a horde of Millennial New Calvinists surrounding (worshiping) MacArthur is disturbing. Most are, no doubt, already “lead pastors” at their YRR churches. Not a good sign of things to come.


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    Regarding church membership covenants, agreements and contracts:

    The only covenant a Christian needs is the one written in blood by Jesus. You don’t need to sign anything else – He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life! No rules and regulations by mere men needed in your walk with Him.


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    Todd wrote:

    Also sorely lacking is a lick of common sense.

    This is true. They are also lacking heart. Without either, you get the mess we see in so many churches right now.


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    Max wrote:

    The photo of a horde of Millennial New Calvinists surrounding (worshiping) MacArthur is disturbing.

    MacArthur seems so out of place at these New Calvinist gatherings. He should, at least, leave his tie at home! He is a classical Calvinist who just doesn’t fit with the message and mission of the new reformation. But, I suppose he puts up with his neo-brethren as long as the basic tenets of reformed theology are advanced across the Christian landscape. Plus, it is great for book sales! The young folks never liked him before … but if the New Calvinist leaders invite him to run with them, he must be OK in their minds. The NC who’s-who are using Generation Xers and Millennials (their target market), but the youngsters ain’t got a clue.


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    @ Max:
    My wording… I’ll dig up the video to see how Folmar described his conversion.


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    Deb wrote:

    My wording… I’ll dig up the video to see how Folmar described his conversion.

    He may have actually used those words – “led to Christ” – but that phrase takes on a different connotation in New Calvinism when it comes to “elect” vs. “believers.”


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    Max wrote:

    Max wrote:
    The photo of a horde of Millennial New Calvinists surrounding (worshiping) MacArthur is disturbing.
    MacArthur seems so out of place at these New Calvinist gatherings. He should, at least, leave his tie at home! He is a classical Calvinist who just doesn’t fit with the message and mission of the new reformation. But, I suppose he puts up with his neo-brethren as long as the basic tenets of reformed theology are advanced across the Christian landscape. Plus, it is great for book sales! The young folks never liked him before … but if the New Calvinist leaders invite him to run with them, he must be OK in their minds. The NC who’s-who are using Generation Xers and Millennials (their target market), but the youngsters ain’t got a clue.

    My ex-pastor was a graduate of John MacArthur’s The Master’s Seminary. MacArthur apparently is doing just fine graduating insufferable bullies. I’ve heard from scores of people who have described these graduates as some of the most coercive, abusive clergy that they have ever met.


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    Velour wrote:

    My ex-pastor was a graduate of John MacArthur’s The Master’s Seminary. MacArthur apparently is doing just fine graduating insufferable bullies.

    They evidently took on the spirit of MacArthur while they were in seminary. There are a lot of spirits floating around in New Calvinism that possess followers, causing them to behave in certain ways: the macho-man Spirit of Driscoll, the intellectual Spirit of Mohler, the arrogant Spirit of Dever, the weird Spirit of Piper, etc. etc.


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    Max wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    My ex-pastor was a graduate of John MacArthur’s The Master’s Seminary. MacArthur apparently is doing just fine graduating insufferable bullies.

    They evidently took on the spirit of MacArthur while they were in seminary. There are a lot of spirits floating around in New Calvinism that possess followers, causing them to behave in certain ways: the macho-man Spirit of Driscoll, the intellectual Spirit of Mohler, the arrogant Spirit of Dever, the weird Spirit of Piper, etc. etc.

    These immature pastor boys are doing a lot of damage to the name of Jesus.


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    mot wrote:

    These immature pastor boys are doing a lot of damage to the name of Jesus.

    They will always be preacher boys, not men of God.


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    I noticed on the screenshot of the 9Marks book that David Platt wrote the foreword. The 3rd edition of Nine Marks of a Healthy Church is copyright 2013, so Mr. Platt was age 34 when that was published. The following year, he was elected as the head of the Southern Baptist Convention’s International Mission Board. The entire foreword is available to read on the “Look inside” feature of the Amazon page for this book. Just another indicator of the toxic symbiosis between Mr. Dever’s constructs and the SBC.


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    I noticed on the screenshot of the 9Marks book that David Platt wrote the foreword. The 3rd edition of Nine Marks of a Healthy Church is copyright 2013, so Mr. Platt was age 34 when that was published. The following year, he was elected as the head of the Southern Baptist Convention’s International Mission Board. The entire foreword is available to read on the “Look inside” feature of the Amazon page for this book. Just another indicator of the toxic symbiosis between Mr. Dever’s constructs and the SBC.

    Good research, Brad.


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    @ Harley:

    You have no idea how scared I was during the process. When I wrote my story for Dee about Eric Simmons Redeemer Arlington, I wrote about a false accusation. It took me over a year to breath a word and say what that false accusation was: I was falsely accused of engaging in stalking. Yes the USAF Captain who gave birth to it invited me into his home beforehand, and asked me to change the password of his computer so he couldn’t access pornography. He was also trying to get me involved in Redeemer Arlington. The false accusation came shortly thereafter. In my situation I learned why rape and sexual assault is a serious issue in the United States military. I still can’t believe what happened, it was never resolved and I am in the process of trying to change jobs since it wasn’t resolved. I need peace and Jordan Kaulfin, Redeemer Arlington, and Andrew White denied it to me. Jordan Kauflin really doesn’t know what he is doing. Yes Andrew said he is sorry but he couldn’t make that phone call that would have neutralized the situation and given me peace. That is what the Attorney who advised me told me what needed to happen. That trauma is why I write 4 posts a week and do what I do while working a full time job. I feel stuck.

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/09/17/an-open-letter-to-bob-rowley-texas-and-oklahoma-district-superintendent-on-why-i-write-this-blog-feedback-i-get-and-more/


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    srs wrote:

    Dee/Deb – have you ever written anything about how to record conversations? If some of these temper tantrums were posted online, these pastors would lose the appearance of being so wise and Godly.

    The *archived* Digital Media Law Project is a good place to start with matters of U.S. federal and state law related to “citizen journalists” — blogging, vlogging, etc. It has leads to state-by-state laws on various topics, such as recording conversations and meetings and what kinds of consent are required.

    Please note that this website stopped updating in 2014, but the information is well organized and will get you acquainted with the basic terminology and concepts involved. Still, it is an important site to know about for putting the spotlight onto anti-biblical practices, malignant leaders, and toxic systems.

    http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/recording-phone-calls-conversations-meetings-and-hearings


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    Speaking of which you will not believe what I am getting up tonight at my blog. There are a group of Evangelical Free Churches in Southern California called the Anthem “Family of Churches.” They are apparently trying to duplicate SGM culture in their churches. Matt Larson is the brainchild of this movement. Jonathan Leeman and 9 Marks is held in high esteem in the Anthem “Family of Churches” and they are all a part of The Gospel Coalition. The posts are almost finished and when I get home from work they will be published. These churches are located in Thousand Oaks, Ventura, and Camarillo.


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    Speaking of “Brand Enhancement”, in an unrelated development to this post … but in a related development to New Calvinist branding, I just found out that Ed Stetzer has had a job change.

    Stetzer is no longer with LifeWay, promoting the publications and personalities of New Calvinism. In a disturbing development, he is now Executive Director of the Billy Graham Center for Evangelism and the New Billy Graham “Chair” at Wheaton College! I wonder what Billy Graham thinks about a non-evangelist bearing his name in these positions?!

    http://www.wheaton.edu/Media-Center/News/2016/05/Dr-Ed-Stetzer-Named-To-New-Billy-Graham-Chair

    This guy is a chameleon!


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    Dave (Eagle) wrote:

    There are a group of Evangelical Free Churches in Southern California called the Anthem “Family of Churches.” They are apparently trying to duplicate SGM culture in their churches.

    Chalk it up! Another non-Calvinist denomination falls to the reformed movement!


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Formally, there is no such thing as a 9Marks church.

    We’ve seen statements like that before, and not just from 9Marks. There is a broader pattern that shows up in abuse survivor communities where an individual, ministry, church, or organization publishes and promotes their certain brand of principles and practices — and yet, when there are harmful consequences to the actions of those who apply these principles/practices, the Father of the Material and the Mothership Organization pull out the excuse that “this isn’t a formal membership network.”

    And so they disclaim any “formal” responsibility for the actions of anyone who misunderstands and misuses the system. This supposedly recuses the writer(s) and/or organization(s) from having to perform any concrete action to discipline the offenders, make restitution to those harmed, etc. Oh, maybe there will be some mild and indirect correctives, like the break-out session on “Don’t be a 9Marxist” mentioned in the article. But typically, the Father and Mothership still carry on with publications and conferences to train followers in the supposedly correct application of the materials. Business as usual in the “informal franchise.” And insiders continue using the brand-name lingo as shorthand for adherence to the principles/practices.

    Here’s a starter list of where we’ve seen this tactic happen: Calvary Chapel, 9 Marks, Acts29, The Gospel Coalition, Together for the Gospel. What other non-official networks can you add?


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Formally, there is no such thing as a 9Marks church.

    CLARIFICATION: The quote, “Formally, there is no such thing as a 9Marks church” comes from Mark Leeman, as quoted in a comment by Todd Wilhelm. [Sometimes the “Reply w/Quote” option ends up making it look like a statement came from someone it didn’t, and just wanted to make sure it was clear who said this statement.]


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Todd Wilhelm wrote:
    Formally, there is no such thing as a 9Marks church.
    We’ve seen statements like that before, and not just from 9Marks. There is a broader pattern that shows up in abuse survivor communities where an individual, ministry, church, or organization publishes and promotes their certain brand of principles and practices — and yet, when there are harmful consequences to the actions of those who apply these principles/practices, the Father of the Material and the Mothership Organization pull out the excuse that “this isn’t a formal membership network.”
    And so they disclaim any “formal” responsibility for the actions of anyone who misunderstands and misuses the system. This supposedly recuses the writer(s) and/or organization(s) from having to perform any concrete action to discipline the offenders, make restitution to those harmed, etc. Oh, maybe there will be some mild and indirect correctives, like the break-out session on “Don’t be a 9Marxist” mentioned in the article. But typically, the Father and Mothership still carry on with publications and conferences to train followers in the supposedly correct application of the materials. Business as usual in the “informal franchise.” And insiders continue using the brand-name lingo as shorthand for adherence to the principles/practices.
    Here’s a starter list of where we’ve seen this tactic happen: Calvary Chapel, 9 Marks, Acts29, The Gospel Coalition, Together for the Gospel. What other non-official networks can you add?

    Council on Biblical Manhood Womanhood.


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    Max wrote:

    “UCCD’s senior pastor John Folmar was led to Christ by Mark Dever …”

    Now, this is a phrase – “led to Christ” – that you don’t hear tossed around much in New Calvinist ranks. Leading to Calvinism or leading to reformed theology is a more appropriate way of describing New Calvinist “evangelism” (or I should say proselytizing). Conversion to a system of belief is not the same as converting someone to Jesus. Heck, the New Calvinists don’t even talk about Jesus much! They will tell you that they are “Christ Followers”, but neglect lifting His name above all others in their preaching/teaching.

    While I am quite dismayed by the practices of most of these folks known as new Calvinists, your comment is simply not true. I attended one of the biggest and one of the best know mega-churches that falls under this brand and they and their guest speakers consistently lifted up the name of Jesus and consistently used spoke of leading others to Christ.


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    Velour wrote:

    brad/futuristguy wrote:
    Todd Wilhelm wrote:
    Formally, there is no such thing as a 9Marks church.
    We’ve seen statements like that before, and not just from 9Marks. There is a broader pattern that shows up in abuse survivor communities where an individual, ministry, church, or organization publishes and promotes their certain brand of principles and practices — and yet, when there are harmful consequences to the actions of those who apply these principles/practices, the Father of the Material and the Mothership Organization pull out the excuse that “this isn’t a formal membership network.”
    And so they disclaim any “formal” responsibility for the actions of anyone who misunderstands and misuses the system. This supposedly recuses the writer(s) and/or organization(s) from having to perform any concrete action to discipline the offenders, make restitution to those harmed, etc. Oh, maybe there will be some mild and indirect correctives, like the break-out session on “Don’t be a 9Marxist” mentioned in the article. But typically, the Father and Mothership still carry on with publications and conferences to train followers in the supposedly correct application of the materials. Business as usual in the “informal franchise.” And insiders continue using the brand-name lingo as shorthand for adherence to the principles/practices.
    Here’s a starter list of where we’ve seen this tactic happen: Calvary Chapel, 9 Marks, Acts29, The Gospel Coalition, Together for the Gospel. What other non-official networks can you add?
    Council on Biblical Manhood Womanhood.

    Institute for Nouthetic Studies [Counseling]

    Desiring God

    Here’s a list of “Resources” from my ex-church.
    http://www.gbfsv.org/helpful-websites

    Most of the organizations are considered to be nefarious by astute readers here.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    “We’re all going to be in a kind of a learning process about how to do these things well, and I think this is just a part of the growth process for all of us.” Dever then chimes in with a “Yeah, amen.”

    What they are really saying here is, “Heh, we’re going to hurt some people, destroy some lives and families. Just a little collateral damage. So what.”

    They don’t care if they hurt people, as long as they have control, power, and fame.

    A destructive ethic when the end justifies the ‘means’ and ‘means’ yield ‘collateral damage’ in the lives of real human beings. They can’t believe that they do evil for ‘the glory of God’. Even they must know better than that. (I hope.)

    They are working in the darkness and they are admitting it. Our Lord’s Way may ask for us to be self-giving and offer ourselves in service of others;
    but it never calls for us to hurt others to better our own power structure.
    These men are working in the darkness, yes.

  50. Pingback: Linkathon! | PhoenixPreacher


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    Max wrote:

    There are a lot of spirits floating around in New Calvinism that possess followers, causing them to behave in certain ways: the macho-man Spirit of Driscoll, the intellectual Spirit of Mohler, the arrogant Spirit of Dever, the weird Spirit of Piper, etc. etc.

    Would that they had the armor of Our Lord’ humility.


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    Christiane wrote:

    Would that they had the armor of Our Lord’ humility.

    should be ‘Our Lord’s humility’ 🙂


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    “I was told by a UCCD elder that the Rector of the local Anglican church was not even a Christian and therefore I was not in compliance with this clause!”

    Todd, why did he say that about the Rector? Was it something personal, or was it because no Anglican can be a Christian?


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    There is a broader pattern that shows up in abuse survivor communities where an individual, ministry, church, or organization publishes and promotes their certain brand of principles and practices — and yet, when there are harmful consequences to the actions of those who apply these principles/practices, the Father of the Material and the Mothership Organization pull out the excuse that “this isn’t a formal membership network.”

    True. All of the formalities of a formula and a denomination, without any ability/ownership taken of the problems and any ability to correct them. Assuming they recognize them as problems at all, which they only really do when they hit the press big time.


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    Max wrote:

    mot wrote:

    These immature pastor boys are doing a lot of damage to the name of Jesus.

    They will always be preacher boys, not men of God.

    Pride yields to the Darkness and as JRR Tolkien wrote,
    “The Shadow mocks, it cannot make”


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    @ Max:
    Back in 1996 Mark Dever delivered a chapel address at SEBTS, and he brought with him John Folmar (as recounted by Folmar in his 2013 chapel message at SEBTS).

    In that message, Folmar restates what Dever said of him back in 1996. (at the 0:28 mark)

    “I want you to hear from somebody who just came to faith in Christ.”

    That somebody was John Folmar. Can there by any doubt that Dever played a significant role in Folmar’s conversion?

    An interesting tidbit from that chapel message… at the 1 minute mark, John Folmar explains that he has been living in the United Arab Emirates for 8 years.

    So here’s the timeline based on the information provided…

    1996 Folmar came to faith in Christ

    2005 Folmar moves to U.A.E. to pastor UCCD

    In between these dates, he earned his M.Div. from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. I assume the rest of the time he was on staff at Capitol Hill Baptist Church.  If anybody should know how to carry out the 9Marks properly, it should be John Folmar.  Alas, Folmar was Todd Wilhelm's former pastor, and Todd has shared what happened while he was at UCCD.


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    More Calvinista Industrial Complex…

    I must have signed up for a T4G mailing list so I could watch some livestream or another because I JUST got an email for the CROSS convention in Indianapolis December 27-30. It’s directed at college stuents, obvs, and features David Pkatt, Thabiti Anyabwile, the very busy Kevin DeYoung, Trip Lee, ole Flutterhands himself, John Piper and J.D. Greear.

    It’s supposedly about missions and is sponsored in part by the IMB, the Master’s Seminary and Crossway.

    I didn’t get any feel that Jesus was involved in any of it.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    “We’re all going to be in a kind of a learning process about how to do these things well, and I think this is just a part of the growth process for all of us.” Dever then chimes in with a “Yeah, amen.”

    What they are really saying here is, “Heh, we’re going to hurt some people, destroy some lives and families. Just a little collateral damage. So what.”

    “You can’t make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.”
    — Comrade Stalin, taken to heart by Comrade Pol Pot


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    Eeyore wrote:

    Christiane wrote:

    There seems to be a real change in our land now, and maybe our country is ripe for ‘authoritarian’ control as seen in the neo-Cal and 9 Marks vision of unquestioning obedience to leadership. (?)
    Is this ‘movement’ larger than we know?

    I think and fear that there’s a large chunk of the country and the church that want to turn back the clock culturally – and if it has to be done by force, so be it.

    “Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuehrer…”


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Formally, there is no such thing as a 9Marks church.

    We’ve seen statements like that before, and not just from 9Marks. There is a broader pattern that shows up in abuse survivor communities where an individual, ministry, church, or organization publishes and promotes their certain brand of principles and practices — and yet, when there are harmful consequences to the actions of those who apply these principles/practices, the Father of the Material and the Mothership Organization pull out the excuse that “this isn’t a formal membership network.”

    And so they disclaim any “formal” responsibility for the actions of anyone who misunderstands and misuses the system.

    TOTAL PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY.


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    @ mirele:

    Someone else here alerted us about the CROSS Conference.


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    “The Bible doesn’t quite say how to join a church.”

    Hmm. The words “Come, follow me” leap to mind.


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    Deb wrote:

    “I want you to hear from somebody who just came to faith in Christ.”

    Coming to faith in Christ uttered by a New Calvinist really means coming to faith in Calvinism, since Calvinism = Gospel. It’s a whole different world of hidden meanings in words and phrases used in those ranks … another gospel. I would say Folmar is deeply entrenched in reformed theology, with his resume listing both Capitol Hill Baptist Church and Southern Seminary. Those experiences will make you about as hard-core reformed as you can be! No wonder that Todd experienced the rotten end of reformed belief and practice when he began to question it.


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    Max wrote:

    Education doesn’t produce one ounce of revelation!

    Agreed, but I would add that many of the malefactors in neo-Calvinism also lack an authentic education.


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    Christiane wrote:

    Would that they had the armor of Our Lord’ humility.

    Humility comes with Christlikeness, which New Calvinists are not accused of resembling.


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    mirele wrote:

    It’s supposedly about missions and is sponsored in part by the IMB, the Master’s Seminary and Crossway.

    Clearly the mission is to sell more books.


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    fiveonly wrote:

    I attended one of the biggest and one of the best know mega-churches that falls under this brand and they and their guest speakers consistently lifted up the name of Jesus and consistently used spoke of leading others to Christ.

    You describe a very atypical New Calvinist church. The combined experiences of the host of TWW commenters would not agree that folks are led to the Cross of Christ by whosoever-will-may-come preaching in reformed churches. There are no altar calls, no lifting of the Cross of Jesus for ALL people, no invitation to accept Christ, no sinner’s prayer. On the other hand, there is a lot of energy being spent in New Calvinist works to lead followers to the tenets of Calvinism – Doctrines of Grace. It’s more about joining the crew as one of the elect, rather than believing in faith to accept the Gospel message and receive Christ. Evangelism in New Calvinism is more about harvesting the elect, rather than harvesting lost souls – whosoever will may come.


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    Friend wrote:

    “The Bible doesn’t quite say how to join a church.”

    Hmm. The words “Come, follow me” leap to mind.

    AMEN!


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    fiveonly wrote:

    spoke of leading others to Christ

    A young reformer in my area “evangelizes” in the following manner. He NEVER invites folks to accept Christ in a sermon; he NEVER leads anyone to Jesus as part of his “gospel” delivery; he NEVER mentions the Cross of Christ. However, he will occasionally post on Facebook “Baptizing next Sunday! Sign up on Facebook!” And they come, but where is the “leading to Christ” in that approach?


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    — and yet, when there are harmful consequences to the actions of those who apply these principles/practices, the Father of the Material and the Mothership Organization pull out the excuse that “this isn’t a formal membership network.”

    All of the influence with none of the responsibility (liability).

    Here’s a starter list of where we’ve seen this tactic happen: Calvary Chapel, 9 Marks, Acts29, The Gospel Coalition, Together for the Gospel. What other non-official networks can you add?

    “Authentic Manhood” and all its clones.


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    Lea wrote:

    True. All of the formalities of a formula and a denomination, without any ability/ownership taken of the problems and any ability to correct them. Assuming they recognize them as problems at all, which they only really do when they hit the press big time.

    In the case of C J Mahaney, even hitting the press has not been enough to damper their enthusiasm for him.

    “I’ll pat your back and you pat mine,” they promote each other and actually take pains NOT to see the problems or have to take a stand on them.


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Here’s a starter list of where we’ve seen this tactic happen: Calvary Chapel, 9 Marks, Acts29, The Gospel Coalition, Together for the Gospel. What other non-official networks can you add?

    CALVARY CHAPEL.


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    Max wrote:

    fiveonly wrote:

    spoke of leading others to Christ

    A young reformer in my area “evangelizes” in the following manner. He NEVER invites folks to accept Christ in a sermon; he NEVER leads anyone to Jesus as part of his “gospel” delivery; he NEVER mentions the Cross of Christ. However, he will occasionally post on Facebook “Baptizing next Sunday! Sign up on Facebook!” And they come, but where is the “leading to Christ” in that approach?

    Remember Furtick? How do you know “those who come” are not his shills?


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    Max wrote:

    Christiane wrote:

    Would that they had the armor of Our Lord’ humility.

    Humility comes with Christlikeness, which New Calvinists are not accused of resembling.

    But they’re The Predestined Elect, the Predestined Righteous Ones!

    And as for humility, remember Cee Jay the HUMBLE(TM)?
    And Screwtape’s epistle about redefinition into “diabolical meanings”?


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    Max wrote:

    Coming to faith in Christ uttered by a New Calvinist really means coming to faith in Calvinism, since Calvinism = Gospel. It’s a whole different world of hidden meanings in words and phrases used in those ranks … another gospel.

    My Dear Wormwood,

    I refer you to my previous epistle on Semantics — specifically, the redefinition of words into their “diabolical meanings”.

    Your Ravenously Affectionate Uncle,
    Screwtape


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    Max wrote:

    Coming to faith in Christ uttered by a New Calvinist really means coming to faith in Calvinism, since Calvinism = Gospel.

    And don’t forget, they say you can’t even understand or really believe the “gospel” unless you subscribe to their definition of male-female relations aka complementarianism. Here’s a post from 2009 explaining the supposed necessity of it https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/kevindeyoung/2009/07/02/why-do-new-calvinists-insist-on/

    I guess when Jesus told the believing thief on the cross, “today you shall be with Me in Paradise,” he forgot to question him on his views about complementarianism first. /sarcasm


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    siteseer wrote:

    I guess when Jesus told the believing thief on the cross, “today you shall be with Me in Paradise,” he forgot to question him on his views about complementarianism first. /sarcasm

    the thing is, acting in the very Person of God, Our Lord had the power to see into the heart and soul of the humble St. Dismas (the good thief on the cross)


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    Max wrote:

    Evangelism in New Calvinism is more about harvesting the elect, rather than harvesting lost souls – whosoever will may come.

    This worked out in a small group where we were asked to share our testimonies and one after another was along the lines of “I was raised or became a Christian as a kid, but now, praise God, I’ve discovered the Doctrines of Grace!”


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Remember Furtick? How do you know “those who come” are not his shills?

    Isn’t Furtick a cult leader? He’s not an evangelical, is he?


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    CLARIFICATION: The quote, “Formally, there is no such thing as a 9Marks church” comes from Mark Leeman, as quoted in a comment by Todd Wilhelm.

    Before I read the clarification, I was thinking “Methinks Todd be plagiarizing him some Leeman!”
    Not to start a political rabit trail, but the “formally, there is no such thing” reminds me of officials, after a terrorist does his thing, saying they can’t find any “links” to groups of bad guys and are really puzzled about the motive. My point being there’s no need for an organizational chart for a church or pastor to be in it hook line and sinker– especially with the Internet.


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    NJ wrote:

    Todd, why did he say that about the Rector? Was it something personal, or was it because no Anglican can be a Christian?

    I believe the latter. To my knowledge, he had never spoken with the Rector. (Who was a very nice Christian man. Truly humble and compassionate.)


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    @ Todd Wilhelm:

    Given the Neo-Cal resistance to consider N.T. Wright a Christian, I would agree that your rector did not meet the 9M standard of proof to be considered an authentic believer.


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    Max wrote:

    Those experiences will make you about as hard-core reformed as you can be!

    And sometimes it makes someone run away as far as possible from any hint of SBTS or 9Marks and the cultic thinking and celebrity idol worship. This I know from a very reliable source who is not me or Gramp3 and who thought Jesus would be the center.


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    Velour wrote:

    Statement of Faith
    http://www.gbfsv.org/gbf-statement-of-faith

    In this they resemble others like T$g in having no faith in God’s benevolence. No goodness, no faithfulness, no love joy and peace (commanded by but not exemplified by their god) no justice, no mercy, no kindness, no healing.
    Oh… and no problem of evil.


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    mirele wrote:

    I didn’t get any feel that Jesus was involved in any of it.

    He is not allowed to be a part of their manly organizations.


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    Dave A A wrote:

    “I was raised or became a Christian as a kid, but now, praise God, I’ve discovered the Doctrines of Grace!”

    You are making me have a flashback…of an era that lasted decades and continues even now in a sense.


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    mot wrote:

    mirele wrote:
    I didn’t get any feel that Jesus was involved in any of it.

    He is not allowed to be a part of their manly organizations.

    It’s because he cried that one time.


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    Interesting early document, says their mission is to “Re-congregationalize Churches” (p. 2). What in the world does that mean?

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:edOpeB_q-8MJ:www.guidestar.org/ViewPdf.aspx%3FPdfSource%3D0%26ein%3D52-2122636+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

    Also, notice the officers (p. 8) are Dever, Schmucker, and somebody named Christopher Vizas, who might just be the “generous neighbor”.


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    mot wrote:

    mirele wrote:

    I didn’t get any feel that Jesus was involved in any of it.

    He is not allowed to be a part of their manly organizations.

    I’ve heard two conflicting stories about what they attempted to do with Our Lord:

    The first is Driscoll’s use of Christ as a manly-he-man model for Christian men to adopt male hubris and tough guy characteristics,
    certainly an exaggeration of ‘maleness’ in the Person of Him Who assumes the humanity of all mankind into His Person, as His human nature.

    Then there is the opposite emphasis of a ‘sub-ordinate’ Christ who, supposedly from all eternity, was subject to the rule of the Father and was expected to obey the Father ….. and THIS complete heresy was used to shore up the idea that women should see in Christ’s example how they need to ‘obey’ the will of their husbands without question.

    PROBLEM: the neo-Cals can’t have it both ways.

    Christ the Lord of the Cosmos has been given short shrift at the hands of some in Christianity, so far have they wandered from the teachings of the Apostles that were received and handed down through the ages. But it is not Christ they have dishonored, it is themselves. Same as when these men do not honor their wives ….. the men dishonor themselves in the process.


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    Lea wrote:

    mot wrote:

    mirele wrote:
    I didn’t get any feel that Jesus was involved in any of it.

    He is not allowed to be a part of their manly organizations.

    It’s because he cried that one time.

    You are right–these boys have no heart at all, They believe they are the elect and do not need Jesus for anything.


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    siteseer wrote:

    And don’t forget, they say you can’t even understand or really believe the “gospel” unless you subscribe to their definition of male-female relations aka complementarianism. Here’s a post from 2009 explaining the supposed necessity of it

    And here’s one Leeman wrote in March 2015: https://9marks.org/article/why-complementarianism-is-crucial-to-discipleship/.

    Can’t make disciples without it.


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    NJ wrote:

    Todd, why did he say that about the Rector? Was it something personal, or was it because no Anglican can be a Christian?

    I believe the latter. To my knowledge, he had never spoken with the Rector. (Who was a very nice Christian man. Truly humble and compassionate.)

    Sigh. Everyone in Christendom has encountered some version of “you’re going to hell.” It’s no longer an original thing to say.

    On a more serious note, it is just horrifying that a clergy member would say such a thing about anyone. The casual attitude that “everyone but me is d*mned” slowly but surely caused me to join the camp that doesn’t believe in hell.


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    Friend wrote:

    Sigh. Everyone in Christendom has encountered some version of “you’re going to hell.” It’s no longer an original thing to say.

    I have often wondered if the hell they think I am going to is actually the heaven promised to me because of my belief in Christ. Would that not be ironic?


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    What about churches that don’t have you literally sign a piece of paper but have you vow aloud a vow of submissionto church discipline before the congregation? Is that a contract? And if so, how can children 11, 12, 13 years old be making a contract? I think many denominations need seriously to rethink the way they are running their churches. Can a Christian lawyer answer that question about young children making such vows? Is it right?


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    Gram3 wrote:

    And sometimes it makes someone run away as far as possible from any hint of SBTS or 9Marks and the cultic thinking and celebrity idol worship.

    That’s called Holy Spirit conviction protecting you from wrong turns. And sometimes it’s just simple discernment – utilizing your senses of hearing and seeing to determine that things ain’t right in Churchville. Either way, when the flags go up, GO!


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    Dave A A wrote:

    “I was raised or became a Christian as a kid, but now, praise God, I’ve discovered the Doctrines of Grace!”

    Yes, it’s all about coming to faith in the TULIP! For that testimony to have been pointing to a genuine conversion to Christ, the person should have said “… Praise God, I’ve discovered JESUS!”


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Here’s a starter list of where we’ve seen this tactic happen: Calvary Chapel, 9 Marks, Acts29, The Gospel Coalition, Together for the Gospel. What other non-official networks can you add?

    Don’t forget Founders. They are the ones who got this ball rolling in the SBC years ago. They are the ones who launched Mohler.


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    Godith wrote:

    What about churches that don’t have you literally sign a piece of paper but have you vow aloud a vow of submissionto church discipline before the congregation? Is that a contract?

    All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one
    Matt. 5:37


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    Godith wrote:

    Can a Christian lawyer answer that question about young children making such vows? Is it right?

    It’s a basic rule of contract law that an unemancipated minor cannot enter into a legal contract. However, if the minor reinforces the contract after reaching majority, it is in force.

    I do NOT know how this would apply to church membership contracts, which are a novel area of the law.


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    Friend wrote:

    Sigh. Everyone in Christendom has encountered some version of “you’re going to hell.” It’s no longer an original thing to say.

    what is the DIFFERENCE between telling someone they are going to hell
    and cursing someone to hell?

    I asked this on SBCvoices ….. result:firestorm of criticism happened, so I’ve been through that already,
    but no response that made any meaningful sense to me


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    Christiane wrote:

    what is the DIFFERENCE between telling someone they are going to hell
    and cursing someone to hell?

    The first can be done without accepting any sense of responsibility.


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    Christiane wrote:

    I asked this on SBCvoices ….. result:firestorm of criticism happened, so I’ve been through that already,
    but no response that made any meaningful sense to me

    Them pastor boys over at voices do not respond very kindly to questions from wimin.


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    This comment by Jonathan Leeman was posted by our former “pastor” after we left the church because of his constant condemning preaching. “Stop calling yourself a Christian if you’re making a habit of living independently from the local church.”

    This is from a sermon almost a month after that post:

    “What does that mean if someone is in continual unrepentant sin and we go to them in love and we go to them in love, if we put them out we don’t associate with them—I know that’s hard to hear but that’s what the Bible says. They can’t have fellowship outside church and not have it here. If they don’t love the church—we’re Christ’s body, people for whom Christ died It means no coffee, no dinners, no movies, no nothing until they come back repentant. Treat them as a pagan tax collector…..What does that mean if someone is in continual unrepentant sin and we go to them in love and we go to them in love, if we put them out we don’t associate with them—I know that’s hard to hear but that’s what the Bible says. They can’t have fellowship outside church and not have it here. If they don’t love the church—we’re Christ’s body, people for whom Christ died It means no coffee, no dinners, no movies, no nothing until they come back repentant. Treat them as a pagan tax collector. Please understand Church Discipline is not punishment. It should always be administered in love and humility. It’s goal is correction. The goal is to see a fellow believer who has left fellowship with Christ once again return to that position of blessing. How can anyone say they are being blessed of God when they look at the church and say “we don’t need them”. I mean think about that. The church, those for whom Christ died, called His bride, the love of Christ, that He spilled His blood for you and I and if we look at that and go “that means nothing to me. I just need God”–that’s the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. You are walking a thin and dangerous line that could have eternal consequences if you forsake the church. They went out from us because they were never of us. The chances of such a person actually being a Christian are slim to none and slim is on permanent vacation.”

    He was doing a series on 9 Marks of a Healthy Church–we knew he was talking about us. (We were not present but heard this on a CD)

    It was after this sermon that the board in that small church told him not to return. I wish I could say there was a happy ending–we did return for a year only to leave for good. The board who stood up to a bully would not stand up to an abuser but welcomed him because he was very sorry you know–cried the appropriate tears and said the right words. Because there was a restraining order, he got to attend church and we could not. (The order was against him!!)


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    I don’t know why I did not notice this earlier. The 9Marks church search page has this in bold red letters:
    “DISCLAIMER: A church’s appearance in the Church Search tool should not be viewed as an endorsement by 9Marks.”

    One way to interpret this is as a warning from 9Marks to not attend any of the churches on their list because they cannot endorse them. Maybe it’s a Freudian slip – “These are the churches to avoid, they are so bad that even we cannot endorse them.” But seriously, how disingenuous to offer a church search and then turn around and say none of the churches can be endorsed.


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    Velour wrote:

    Jerome wrote:

    Also, notice the officers (p. 8) are Dever, Schmucker, and somebody named Christopher Vizas, who might just be the “generous neighbor”.

    https://www.twst.com/bio/christopher-vizas/

    “Follow the Money.”
    — Watergate informant


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    Christiane wrote:

    The first is Driscoll’s use of Christ as a manly-he-man model for Christian men to adopt male hubris and tough guy characteristics, certainly an exaggeration of ‘maleness’

    It’s called “Hypermasculinity”, and its type example is the public “Fuehrer” persona of one A.Hitler.
    (At least according to that 1943 OSS psych profile where I first heard the term.)


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    Leeman’s article has 24 comments now. I’ve never seen a 9Marks article get more than a a handful of comments. Most get no comments.


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    Chris Vizas is the first person Dever thanked in the preface to his Polity book (CCR, 2001):

    http://9marks.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Polity.pdf

    “Chris Vizas, Rhea Thornton, Tom Harrison, Tom Ascol, Jim Elliff, Bruce Keisling, Sean Lucas, Tom Nettles and Paul Roberts have all provided needed assistance.”


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    Ken F wrote:

    Leeman’s article has 24 comments now. I’ve never seen a 9Marks article get more than a a handful of comments. Most get no comments.

    Thanks for the heads up. I just went over there and read the new comments, since the last time I checked there were 12 comments.

    Signed,

    “Grace” (the Amazon book reviewer that Leeman’s article is addressing)


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    Jerome wrote:

    Chris Vizas is the first person Dever thanked in the preface to his Polity book (CCR, 2001):
    http://9marks.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Polity.pdf
    “Chris Vizas, Rhea Thornton, Tom Harrison, Tom Ascol, Jim Elliff, Bruce Keisling, Sean Lucas, Tom Nettles and Paul Roberts have all provided needed assistance.”

    You are a wonderful researcher. Thanks for all of the good information you dig up and share with us.


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    Ken F wrote:

    I’ve never seen a 9Marks article get more than a a handful of comments.

    They probably get blocked.


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    Max wrote:

    They probably get blocked.

    The comments for most articles are positive. But the ones on the article are very critical. To their credit, 9Marks has not removed any of the negative comments.


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    Ken F wrote:

    I don’t know why I did not notice this earlier. The 9Marks church search page has this in bold red letters:
    “DISCLAIMER: A church’s appearance in the Church Search tool should not be viewed as an endorsement by 9Marks.”

    Translation: We will tell everybody how to organize a hierarchical church and control the flock, but don’t blame us when they actually implement our plan!


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Translation: We will tell everybody how to organize a hierarchical church and control the flock, but don’t blame us when they actually implement our plan!

    Who are these soul less men. They take no responsibility for any of their actions.


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    Ken F wrote:

    To their credit, 9Marks has not removed any of the negative comments.

    Yes, I just read the article and comments. It doesn’t appear that the 9Marks moderator is purging critical input – surprising. There is also the usual hint of arrogance and ego-stroking you expect on New Calvinist sites. Good to see that some TWW commenters were able to post there.


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    Ken F wrote:

    But seriously, how disingenuous to offer a church search and then turn around and say none of the churches can be endorsed.

    It’s worse than that! They offer the church search to find churches that apply their 9Marks of a (healthy?) church. They supply the teaching, the search, and then have the disclaimer. Hope they remember what scripture says about those who desire to teach.


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    Ken F wrote:

    Max wrote:
    They probably get blocked.
    The comments for most articles are positive. But the ones on the article are very critical. To their credit, 9Marks has not removed any of the negative comments.

    Although, I was blocked the other day from following Mark Dever’s tweets, as were scores of others here. Todd Wilhelm was already blocked from following Dever.

    I don’t recall ever communicating with Dever on Twitter.

    A strange bunch. Immature. Unwilling, over all, to engage in ideas. Respect is earned. And they don’t do much to earn it.


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    mot wrote:

    Who are these soul less men. They take no responsibility for any of their actions.

    Soul less and cowards!


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    Christiane wrote:

    I read these words and something rang a bell:

    “Across the country, parishioners are now being challenged to take oaths, perform vows and sign covenants.”

    Some time ago, I read an article on a group that formed under the direction of a man called Doug Coe. He had a lot of connections among the power elite in DC and wanted to form core ‘units’ across the country and then the world that involved ‘total commitment’ to Christian government, with an emphasis on ‘loyalty’ to ‘authority’. The article is ‘Jesus Plus Nothing’ by Jeff Sharlett and reading it raised the hairs at the back of my neck.

    I don’t know much about the Shepherding Movement which I understand was VERY controlling, but this new neo-Cal 9 Marks stuff sounds truly evil. I’m wondering, does all this ‘control’ business spring originally from Rushdoony and Vereide and Coe and the young men and women that lived in places like Ivanwald for ‘training’ in ‘loyalty’ ??
    If not, the similarities are still frightening. Today in politics we are seeing a lot of support for a presidential candidate that admires a foreign leader who is a dictator and a strong-man, who has made his ‘enemies’ disappear. There seems to be a real change in our land now, and maybe our country is ripe for ‘authoritarian’ control as seen in the neo-Cal and 9 Marks vision of unquestioning obedience to leadership. (?)
    Is this ‘movement’ larger than we know?

    http://www.academia.edu/5573712/_Jesus_Plus_Nothing

    UPDATE: I found a video linking Doug Coe and ‘The Family’ to male headship and negative treatment of women:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3iYE5O4R3o


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    Bridget wrote:

    Ken F wrote:
    But seriously, how disingenuous to offer a church search and then turn around and say none of the churches can be endorsed.
    It’s worse than that! They offer the church search to find churches that apply their 9Marks of a (healthy?) church. They supply the teaching, the search, and then have the disclaimer. Hope they remember what scripture says about those who desire to teach.

    Yep. We’ll endorse a church that teaches what we do. Problem is, there’s never a church that teaches what they do.

    It’s like my old group of churches. “Show us where we’re wrong and we’ll change.” But the problem is, they’re never wrong.


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    Bridget wrote:

    mot wrote:

    Who are these soul less men. They take no responsibility for any of their actions.

    Soul less and cowards!

    What these type of people do to others is ungodly. They have destroyed untold lives and ruined many churches. They are nothing but bullies.


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    I connected some dots. Rushdooney to Vereide to Doug Coe to C Street and The Family to fundamentalist male-headship and the poor treatment of women:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3iYE5O4R3o


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    Bridget wrote:

    It’s worse than that! They offer the church search to find churches that apply their 9Marks of a (healthy?) church. They supply the teaching, the search, and then have the disclaimer. Hope they remember what scripture says about those who desire to teach.

    Could it be meant as some kind of a legal disclaimer?


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    Ken F wrote:

    Could it be meant as some kind of a legal disclaimer?

    I’m sure it is, but why? If they want to put the teaching out there for all to buy and use, and help people find churches that adhere to the teachings, then why don’t they stand behind their teachings?


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    What I don’t understand is why people are still worshipping these wolves in wolves clothing…


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    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    What I don’t understand is why people are still worshipping these wolves in wolves clothing…

    I do not get it either. Do these people just turn their brains off.


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    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    What I don’t understand is why people are still worshipping these wolves in wolves clothing…

    Mot wrote: I do not get it either. Do these people just turn their brains off.

    Having done a tour-of-duty of an abusive church – the one up for discussion on this article (Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley), they do employ the Thought Reform techniques that authoritarian groups are known for. Steven Hassan, psychologist, author, and cult expert calls it the BITE Model.

    I call it Spiritual Carbon Monoxide Poisoning. Ordorless, tasteless, colorless, and deadly. You’re knocked out in record speed time, barring some miracle that rescues you from this deadly poison.

    The investment in relationships makes it hard to leave, like domestic violence cases. When you leave, you will lose everything and you have to be prepared for that. You have to be strong enough. You can’t leave based on what someone else thinks you should do. You have to leave when you’re prepared to face all of the losses that you alone will bear.

    It’s a savage system.

    The BITE Model
    I. Behavior Control
    II. Information Control
    III. Thought Control
    IV. Emotional Control

    https://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/BITE/bitemodel.php

    Behavior Control

    1. Regulate individual’s physical reality
    2. Dictate where, how, and with whom the member lives and associates or isolates
    3. When, how and with whom the member has sex
    4. Control types of clothing and hairstyles
    5. Regulate diet – food and drink, hunger and/or fasting
    6. Manipulation and deprivation of sleep
    7. Financial exploitation, manipulation or dependence
    8. Restrict leisure, entertainment, vacation time
    9. Major time spent with group indoctrination and rituals and/or self indoctrination including the Internet
    10. Permission required for major decisions
    11. Thoughts, feelings, and activities (of self and others) reported to superiors
    12. Rewards and punishments used to modify behaviors, both positive and negative
    13. Discourage individualism, encourage group-think
    14. Impose rigid rules and regulations
    15. Instill dependency and obedience
    Information Control

    1. Deception:
    a. Deliberately withhold information
    b. Distort information to make it more acceptable
    c. Systematically lie to the cult member
    2. Minimize or discourage access to non-cult sources of information, including:
    a. Internet, TV, radio, books, articles, newspapers, magazines, other media
    b.Critical information
    c. Former members
    d. Keep members busy so they don’t have time to think and investigate
    e. Control through cell phone with texting, calls, internet tracking
    3. Compartmentalize information into Outsider vs. Insider doctrines
    a. Ensure that information is not freely accessible
    b.Control information at different levels and missions within group
    c. Allow only leadership to decide who needs to know what and when
    4. Encourage spying on other members
    a. Impose a buddy system to monitor and control member
    b.Report deviant thoughts, feelings and actions to leadership
    c. Ensure that individual behavior is monitored by group
    5. Extensive use of cult-generated information and propaganda, including:
    a. Newsletters, magazines, journals, audiotapes, videotapes, YouTube, movies and other media
    b.Misquoting statements or using them out of context from non-cult sources
    6. Unethical use of confession
    a. Information about sins used to disrupt and/or dissolve identity boundaries
    b. Withholding forgiveness or absolution
    c. Manipulation of memory, possible false memories
    Thought Control

    1. Require members to internalize the group’s doctrine as truth
    a. Adopting the group’s ‘map of reality’ as reality
    b. Instill black and white thinking
    c. Decide between good vs. evil
    d. Organize people into us vs. them (insiders vs. outsiders)
    2.Change person’s name and identity
    3. Use of loaded language and clichés which constrict knowledge, stop critical thoughts and reduce complexities into platitudinous buzz words
    4. Encourage only ‘good and proper’ thoughts
    5. Hypnotic techniques are used to alter mental states, undermine critical thinking and even to age regress the member
    6. Memories are manipulated and false memories are created
    7. Teaching thought-stopping techniques which shut down reality testing by stopping negative thoughts and allowing only positive thoughts, including:
    a. Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking
    b. Chanting
    c. Meditating
    d. Praying
    e. Speaking in tongues
    f. Singing or humming
    8. Rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism
    9. Forbid critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy allowed
    10. Labeling alternative belief systems as illegitimate, evil, or not useful
    Emotional Control

    1. Manipulate and narrow the range of feelings – some emotions and/or needs are deemed as evil, wrong or selfish
    2. Teach emotion-stopping techniques to block feelings of homesickness, anger, doubt
    3. Make the person feel that problems are always their own fault, never the leader’s or the group’s fault
    4. Promote feelings of guilt or unworthiness, such as
    a. Identity guilt
    b. You are not living up to your potential
    c. Your family is deficient
    d. Your past is suspect
    e. Your affiliations are unwise
    f. Your thoughts, feelings, actions are irrelevant or selfish
    g. Social guilt
    h. Historical guilt
    5. Instill fear, such as fear of:
    a. Thinking independently
    b. The outside world
    c. Enemies
    d. Losing one’s salvation
    e. Leaving or being shunned by the group
    f. Other’s disapproval
    6. Extremes of emotional highs and lows – love bombing and praise one moment and then declaring you are horrible sinner
    7. Ritualistic and sometimes public confession of sins
    8. Phobia indoctrination: inculcating irrational fears about leaving the group or questioning the leader’s authority
    a. No happiness or fulfillment possible outside of the group
    b. Terrible consequences if you leave: hell, demon possession, incurable diseases, accidents, suicide, insanity, 10,000 reincarnations, etc.
    c. Shunning of those who leave; fear of being rejected by friends, peers, and family
    d. Never a legitimate reason to leave; those who leave are weak, undisciplined, unspiritual, worldly, brainwashed by family or counselor, or seduced by money, sex, or rock and roll
    e. Threats of harm to ex-member and family


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    Dave (Eagle) wrote:

    These churches are located in Thousand Oaks, Ventura, and Camarillo.

    Ack! My hometown!!


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    Velour wrote:

    The BITE Model

    Whew! Many of the items listed in this cult model pertaining to control over member behavior, information, thoughts and emotions have been commented on in TWW posts in regard to New Calvinist church experiences. Actually, this pretty much describes life in John Calvin’s Geneva!


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    Max wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    The BITE Model
    Whew! Many of the items listed in this cult model pertaining to control over member behavior, information, thoughts and emotions have been commented on in TWW posts in regard to New Calvinist church experiences. Actually, this pretty much describes life in John Calvin’s Geneva!

    Indeed.

    Years ago when I visited family in Geneva, I was struck by how clean it was and everything was on the honor system. Newspaper boxes, bus tickets, not a candy wrapper on the ground.
    I didn’t know about Calvin’s Geneva.

    That said, the police get on the buses and demand to see everyone’s ticket. Those without tickets get ticketed by police. Newspaper companies had undercover investigators who fined people for taking newspapers out of the box. Another friend got a knock on her apartment door and there were the police. She was ticketed for putting her duvet (down comforter) out on the deck to air. Someone had complained.

    So while it was all very pretty, it was a police state. And that’s sad.


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    Velour wrote:

    https://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/BITE/bitemodel.php

    VELOUR,
    that is an outstanding link ….. wow! it covers quite a bit and is VERY thought-provoking

    And we can check off just how much of what is listed that has been actively incorporated into neo-Cal praxis. Thank you for this link!

    BTW may I recommend the Netflix film ‘Remote Area Medical’, a very powerful film


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    siteseer wrote:

    the wounded believers and the little ones who have been brutally sinned against are swept under the rug because the machine has a life of its own and must go on

    Your vivid picture of this paradigm shift speaks truth to power, as Jesus did in your references.

    Thanks for your comments.

    Not surprising, as this was predicted in Ezekiel 34.

    “Thus says the Lord God, “Woe, shepherds of Israel who have been feeding themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flock? You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the fat sheep without feeding the flock. Those who are sickly you have not strengthened, the diseased you have not healed, the broken you have not bound up, the scattered you have not brought back, nor have you sought for the lost; but with force and with severity you have dominated them. They were scattered for lack of a shepherd, and they became food for every beast of the field and were scattered. My flock wandered through all the mountains and on every high hill; My flock was scattered over all the surface of the earth, and there was no one to search or seek for them.” NASB


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    @ Velour:
    Yes, Velour, excellent. Thanks so much. Essential information.


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    Bridget wrote:

    Soul less and cowards!

    They are what T.S. Eliot referred to in his poem: The Hollow Men.


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    Christiane wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    https://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/BITE/bitemodel.php
    VELOUR,
    that is an outstanding link ….. wow! it covers quite a bit and is VERY thought-provoking
    And we can check off just how much of what is listed that has been actively incorporated into neo-Cal praxis. Thank you for this link!
    BTW may I recommend the Netflix film ‘Remote Area Medical’, a very powerful film

    Welcome, Christiane.

    Steve Hassan does wonderful work and he was mentored by the psychiatrist/researcher/author/at Yale University Dr. Robert Jay Lifton.

    Hassn was in the Moonie cult, recruited in college while he was at a low-point and had just one through a break up. Three women flirted with him and insisted they weren’t in a cult. Love bombing.

    Thanks for the movie tip. I will watch it. We should remember to save them at the top of the page here too under the Interesting tab, Books/Movies/TV, ETC. tab so that others have the titles too.


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    JYJames wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Yes, Velour, excellent. Thanks so much. Essential information.

    Most welcome. Yes, essential information.


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    Velour wrote:

    Steve Hassan does wonderful work and he was mentored by the psychiatrist/researcher/author/at Yale University Dr. Robert Jay Lifton.

    VIMEO has some of Hassan’s films and here’s the one for the BITE model:
    https://vimeo.com/58511985


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    Christiane wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Steve Hassan does wonderful work and he was mentored by the psychiatrist/researcher/author/at Yale University Dr. Robert Jay Lifton.
    VIMEO has some of Hassan’s films and here’s the one for the BITE model:
    https://vimeo.com/58511985

    Thanks Christiane. We should also post his interview with Dr. Robert Jay Lifton.
    And the link again to Brad/FuturistGuy ‘s website about Lifton’s work.


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    Steve Hassan, psychologist/author/cult expert/Thought Reform expert interviewing Dr. Robert Jay Lifton (psychiatrist, author, researcher about Thought Reform, at Yale University):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfCTV9H-a8Y

    Brad/FuturistGuy who comments here and his well-researched article about Dr. Robert Jay Lifton:
    https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/the-hunger-games-trilogy-5a/


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    Christiane wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Steve Hassan does wonderful work and he was mentored by the psychiatrist/researcher/author/at Yale University Dr. Robert Jay Lifton.
    VIMEO has some of Hassan’s films and here’s the one for the BITE model:
    https://vimeo.com/58511985

    Thanks for that link. I just posted it on my GBFSVChurchAbuse.Org blog .


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    Ken F wrote:

    I’ve never seen a 9Marks article get more than a a handful of comments.

    Half the time there’ll be 1 solitary comment from A Amos Love, asking why it is he can’t find whatever-it-is in his Bible! An article awhile back by Bobby Jamieson imploring pastors not to allow “your people” to “resign into thin air” got a large number of comments. Eventually after Dave (Eagle) asked why CJ Mahaney had been encouraged to flee his church and hide out at CBHC, Mr Leeman did step in and delete it along with all the related comments.
    Usually the saddest thing is the polite, thoughtful direct questions he simply ignores.


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    Max wrote:

    Praise God, I’ve discovered JESUS!”

    So have I! But I’ve heard it said that this means we’ve NOT discovered him, because we’re semi-pelagians trusting in our good works of discovery.


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Here’s a starter list of where we’ve seen this tactic happen: Calvary Chapel, 9 Marks, Acts29, The Gospel Coalition, Together for the Gospel. What other non-official networks can you add?

    Word of Faith…


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    @ Christiane:

    “…all this ‘control’ business….”
    ++++++++++

    i’m free associating here…

    the Leadership Network…

    the spread of democracy….

    how a few powerful nations re-drew the boundaries of smaller nations after WWI….

    Queen Victoria putting her kids on the thrones of other european countries by marriage for the purpose of peace (or eliminating threats to England)…
    ——-

    what comes to mind are so many relatively small groups who seek to control things by meddling. perhaps their self-serving agendas are laced with some good & honorable intentions.

    it just seems like this control business is nothing new (albeit rotten on many complex levels). when it begins to encroach on us on a more micro level, it starts to feel more troubling.

    i have a tremendous urge to move to Iceland. Or to build a cabin on the alaskan tundra. beyond “their” reach.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    i have a tremendous urge to move to Iceland. Or to build a cabin on the alaskan tundra. beyond “their” reach.

    you may take some comfort/inspiration from this
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYJKd0rkKss

    my grandfather (pepere) was once a lumberjack in Canada in his youth, even in old age, he stood over six feet tall and even with his wooden leg, had more presence and dignity than anyone I ever knew, except my father

    ‘winter makes strong’ … A Finnish saying. I think it must be true. 🙂


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    Post 1 of 2

    The August 2016 edition of Christianity magazine (a UK publication not to be confused with Christianity Today) had a very interesting and, indeed, encouraging article on millennials and the church. Entitled “Does the future have a church?”, the article looked at the number of people under around 35 (or, in our case, under 49) who are leaving institutional churches but who at the same time want their lives to make a difference. Indeed, they are often leaving institutional churches because they want their lives to make a difference.

    Two really good quotes from the article:

    What is clear is that simply putting on a more “hip show” to attract the under-35’s isn’t working any more. What many older people in our churches don’t recognise is that because the under-35’s are so concerned about addressing the urgent human needs of others, they have little interest in investing their time and money in an organisation whose de facto mission seems to be institutional maintenance. [By the article’s author, Tom Sine]

    And:

    This generation wants their entire lives to make a difference; not just to contribute a share of their discretionary resources as they prosper [Claritta Peters, student and social entrepreneur, quoted in the article]

    The article went on to describe numerous innovative solutions to social problems that young(ish) followers of Jesus have pioneered, not as an alternative to church, but as church.


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    Post 2 of 2

    I agree, with many Wartburgers who’ve commented above, that the spreading cancer of legalism and ReformedTheology™ is destroying the visible church – creating a pile of dead stones in which the love of many people has grown cold. At the same time, I believe there is a real reformation – that is, one driven by the Holy Spirit – underway. And the clearest evidence of it is the rise of the very Nones who are so despised by those whose real desire is to build and/or maintain man-made religious empires, whether large or small.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Looking forward to reading that article. Is it in “Christian Today”?


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    @ Deb:

    No, it’s just called “Christianity”.

    The article stub is available on their interwebsite here.


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    Anotherone wrote:

    Because there was a restraining order, he got to attend church and we could not. (The order was against him!!)

    Churches can be nuts sometimes!


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    Anotherone wrote:

    This comment by Jonathan Leeman was posted by our former “pastor” after we left the church because of his constant condemning preaching. “Stop calling yourself a Christian if you’re making a habit of living independently from the local church.”

    This is from a sermon almost a month after that post:

    “What does that mean if someone is in continual unrepentant sin and we go to them in love and we go to them in love, if we put them out we don’t associate with them—I know that’s hard to hear but that’s what the Bible says. They can’t have fellowship outside church and not have it here. If they don’t love the church—we’re Christ’s body, people for whom Christ died It means no coffee, no dinners, no movies, no nothing until they come back repentant. Treat them as a pagan tax collector…..What does that mean if someone is in continual unrepentant sin and we go to them in love and we go to them in love, if we put them out we don’t associate with them—I know that’s hard to hear but that’s what the Bible says. They can’t have fellowship outside church and not have it here. If they don’t love the church—we’re Christ’s body, people for whom Christ died It means no coffee, no dinners, no movies, no nothing until they come back repentant. Treat them as a pagan tax collector. Please understand Church Discipline is not punishment. It should always be administered in love and humility. It’s goal is correction. The goal is to see a fellow believer who has left fellowship with Christ once again return to that position of blessing. How can anyone say they are being blessed of God when they look at the church and say “we don’t need them”. I mean think about that. The church, those for whom Christ died, called His bride, the love of Christ, that He spilled His blood for you and I and if we look at that and go “that means nothing to me. I just need God”–that’s the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. You are walking a thin and dangerous line that could have eternal consequences if you forsake the church. They went out from us because they were never of us. The chances of such a person actually being a Christian are slim to none and slim is on permanent vacation.”

    He was doing a series on 9 Marks of a Healthy Church–we knew he was talking about us. (We were not present but heard this on a CD)

    Anotherone,

    Welcome to TWW! Love your moniker, which I believe could be used by a good number of people who have been mistreated under the guise of “9 Marks of a Healthy Church”.

    It has been said that one complaint letter represents many others who for whatever reason will not take the time to speak out. I am wondering how many of our brothers and sisters in Christ who have been hurt by these authority-obsessed gurus are remaining silent out of fear.

    Thanks for chiming in with your important testimony. I hope others will come forward and share their experiences in these controlling churches. There is incredible freedom that comes with telling about one’s story of mistreatment.


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    Dave A A wrote:

    semi-pelagians

    Whatever. All I know is the Spirit itself beareth witness with my spirit, that I am a child of God. Assigning a label to my faith can’t change that reality.


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    Velour wrote:

    it was a police state

    Calvin’s Geneva was also a police state. The magisterial reformers were buds with the State and persuaded them to enforce “crimes” against Calvin’s belief system. That way Calvin could have the State burn Servetus at the stake and wash his hands of it. Multitudes of dissenters to Calvin’s brand of religion were tortured, imprisoned, excommunicated, or executed with the reformers looking on. The magisterial reformers were not nice people. The real reformers suffered at their hands. Geneva was not the utopia Calvin tried to create … by force.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    not as an alternative to church, but as church

    There has always been the Church within the church. Finding the remnant is like trying to find a needle in a haystack these days. Given the current condition of the institutional church, the real Church is finding that it must leave the walls and hit the streets in order to live out their spiritual lives. Hype and gimmick just doesn’t cut it anymore for the serious Christian who can see through the deception. Thus, they leave and proudly proclaim “I don’t go to church. I am the Church!”


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    Anotherone wrote:

    we’re Christ’s body, people for whom Christ died It means no coffee, no dinners, no movies, no nothing until they come back repentant. Treat them as a pagan tax collector…..What does that mean if someone is in continual unrepentant sin and we go to them in love and we go to them in love, if we put them out we don’t associate with them—I

    What a statement. How exactly did Jesus treat tax collectors?

    “The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners! ’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”
    Matt. 11:19

    “As he was speaking, the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in the act of adultery. They put her in front of the crowd.

    “Teacher,” they said to Jesus, “this woman was caught in the act of adultery. The law of Moses says to stone her. What do you say?”

    They were trying to trap him into saying something they could use against him, but Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his finger.

    They kept demanding an answer, so he stood up again and said, “All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!”

    Then he stooped down again and wrote in the dust. When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one, beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of the crowd with the woman.

    Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?”

    “No, Lord,” she said. And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.””
    John 8:3-11

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY6VAy9y_iQ


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    Anotherone wrote:

    The board who stood up to a bully would not stand up to an abuser but welcomed him because he was very sorry you know–cried the appropriate tears and said the right words. Because there was a restraining order, he got to attend church and we could not. (The order was against him!!

    (Sarcasm alert) Yes! Protect abusers who inflict pain on the innocent, while casting aside the victims! That is exactly what Jesus taught, right? Tie a millstone around the necks of the innocent victims? That is what makes a church a great place to be, a great place to raise your children! (Sarcasm alert off)

    Anotherone, thanks for coming forward.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    de facto mission seems to be institutional maintenance. [By the article’s author, Tom Sine]

    I like this phrase! Classy, yet blunt!


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    Max wrote:

    “I don’t go to church. I am the Church!”

    This is a concept I doubt the folks at 9Marks will ever grasp.


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    How exactly did Jesus treat tax collectors?

    Exactly!

    Now there is the ‘do not even eat with them verse….but that’s a different one. And specifically for people in the church, not out of it I think.


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    Dave A A wrote:

    Ken F wrote:
    I’ve never seen a 9Marks article get more than a a handful of comments.
    Half the time there’ll be 1 solitary comment from A Amos Love, asking why it is he can’t find whatever-it-is in his Bible! An article awhile back by Bobby Jamieson imploring pastors not to allow “your people” to “resign into thin air” got a large number of comments. Eventually after Dave (Eagle) asked why CJ Mahaney had been encouraged to flee his church and hide out at CBHC, Mr Leeman did step in and delete it along with all the related comments.
    Usually the saddest thing is the polite, thoughtful direct questions he simply ignores.

    I love when A. Amos Love shows up to remind the saints of these points. And it’s sad but not surprising that 9 Mark won’t engage with people who comment and their comments get ignored. Very disrespectful too. They don’t really have a lot to say – 9 Marx – in the face of Christians who are Bereans and have an iota of critical thinking skills.


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    Hi Folks,

    I am “Grace” in the Amazon review (“Velour” here at Wartburg) and the topic of discussion in my Amazon review and Todd Wilhelm’s article is my former church Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley.

    I have started blogging because of the spiritual abuse I was subjected to, witnessed others be subjected to, and many Christians fled GBFSV having seen “the writing on the wall”. https://gbfsvchurchabuse.org/

    I recently joined Facebook and started a survivor’s group as well as a group to warn the students at Stanford University that GBFSV is trying to target through a Bible study.

    If you’d be so kind as to look at GBFSV’s church documents and tell me what you see wrong with them, I’d appreciate it. I will share your insights on my blog and on the two groups on Facebook.

    First up, the Statement of Faith. http://www.gbfsv.org/gbf-statement-of-faith

    Jack on The Wartburg Watch:
    “Just went to the website of this church [Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley]. The membership contract is a vague rip from Purpose Driven Life but the bylaws are the meat & potatoes!
    In short, this corporation has no members. Members abrogate their rights upon signing the contract.
    Just reading the bylaws lights up every warning alarm on the TWW checklist of what to look for in an abusive church. http://www.gbfsv.org/by-laws
    No doubt new attendees are love bombed before they read the fine print.
    You should write this up as a case study of churches to stay away from.
    It would be interesting to know how you became involved.”

     Statement of Faith
    http://www.gbfsv.org/gbf-statement-of-faith

     Church Distinctives
    http://www.gbfsv.org/our-ministry-distinctives

     Membership Covenant
    http://www.gbfsv.org/becoming-a-member-of-grace-bible-fellowship

     By Laws
    http://www.gbfsv.org/by-laws

    Bill M:
    “BTW, I looked over the website of your former church [Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley], their resources page reads as a veritable who’s who of nefarious organizations discussed here. I also note that least half the elders are staff, this inverts the accountability and put way too much power in the hands of the pastor. The preface of their statement of faith gives me the shivers and don’t get me started on their membership covenant.”
     Resources: http://www.gbfsv.org/helpful-websites
     Elders: http://www.gbfsv.org/elders—deacons
     Statement of Faith: http://www.gbfsv.org/gbf-statement-of-faith

    http://www.gbfsv.org/gbf-statement-of-faith

    Statement of Faith
    Preface. The Statement of Faith represents the doctrinal position of Grace Bible Fellowship (GBF) as adopted and taught by the Elders of GBF. The Bible mandates that, as overseers and shepherds of Christ’s Church, the Elders protect the doctrinal purity and integrity of the Church (Acts 20:28-31; Jude 3; 2 Timothy 4:1-5). They are also charged to preserve unity regarding the truth (Romans 12:9-18; 3 John 8-12). This Statement of Faith is a distilled overview of the basic topics of what we believe to be the “whole council of God” (Acts 20:27) regarding the fundamentals that a discerning Church and growing Christians should be aspiring toward. We acknowledge that every Christian is ever growing and ever-learning in the Christian life (Philippians 3:12); and we acknowledge that in this life we all “see through a glass dimly” (1 Corinthians 13:12). We are all in progress and growing in knowledge (2 Peter 1:5-8). As such, we recognize the reality that every believer has a learning curve and is on the continuum of Biblical understanding based on maturity, experience, upbringing, and many other variables. The purpose of the Statement of Faith is not to exclude and isolate true believers, but rather to provide a common ground of truth which serves as the basis of common worship, fellowship and service to Christ as one spiritual Body and family in the local church (3 John 3-4).
    Section 1. The Bible: We teach the Bible is Holy Scripture and includes the sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments. The Bible alone is the Word of God, verbally inspired by God, without error in the original manuscripts, and the complete, sufficient, and only infallible rule of faith, life, and practice for every believer (2 Timothy 3:16-17; Hebrews 4:12; 2 Peter 1:19-21; John 10:35; Revelation 22:18-19).

    Section 2. The Trinity: We teach that there is only one living and true God, Who is unchanging, self-existent, infinite, holy, an all-knowing Spirit, perfect in all His attributes, one in essence, eternally existing as three distinct Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—each equally deserving worship and obedience (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 46:9-10; John 4:24; Matthew 28:19; 1 Corinthians 8:4; 2 Corinthians 13:14).
    Section 3. God the Father: We teach that God the Father, the first Person of the Trinity, orders and disposes all things according to His own purpose and grace; He is the Creator of all things. As the absolute and omnipotent Ruler of the universe, He is sovereign in creation, providence, and redemption. His fatherhood involves both His designation within the Trinity and His relationship with mankind. As Creator He is Father to all men, but He is spiritual Father only to believers. He has decreed for His own glory all things that come to pass, knowing infinitely all things, from beginning to end. He continually upholds, directs, and governs all creatures and events. In His sovereignty He is neither the author nor approver of sin, nor does He abridge the accountability of moral, intelligent creatures. He has graciously chosen from eternity past those whom He would have as His own; He saves from sin all who come to Him through Jesus Christ; He adopts as His own all those who come to Him; and He becomes, upon adoption, Father to His own (Genesis 1; Psalm 103:19; 136:1; 145:8-9; 1 Chronicles 29:11; Habakkuk 1:13; Isaiah 6; John 1:12; 8:38-47; Romans 8:14-15; 11:36; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 6:18; Galatians 4:5; Ephesians 1:4-11; 3:9; 4:6; 1 Timothy 1:17; 1 Peter 1:17; Hebrews 12:5-9; 1 John 4:7-8).
    Section 4. God the Son: We teach that Jesus Christ is the second Person of the Trinity,possesses all the divine attributes, and in these He is coequal, consubstantial, and coeternal with the Father—He is God and is worthy of worship. Through Him all things were created and are presently sustained. We teach that God became a man in the Person of Jesus Christ (the Incarnation). As the Father’s only-begotten Son, Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, was miraculously born of a virgin named Mary, lived a sinless life, and performed miracles. Jesus took on a human nature while maintaining His complete deity in an indivisible union. The purpose of this Incarnation was to reveal God, redeem humanity, and rule over God’s kingdom. As the God-Man, Jesus voluntarily died on the cross, in fulfillment of Scripture, as the only perfect and final substitute for sinful men. In His sacrificial, substitutionary death, Christ absorbed the full wrath of God on behalf of sinful humanity. He rose bodily from the grave on the third day, ascended into heaven to the right hand of the Father where He makes intercession for His people as their Advocate and High Priest; He is the only mediator between God the Father and humanity. He will return again physically to reward His saints (‘saints’ are people who have been born again through faith in the gospel; i.e., “all believers”), to judge His enemies, and to reign as King of Kings. (Psalm 2:7-9; Matthew 2:11; John 1:1-18, 5:23, 10:30, 14:9; 28; Luke 1:26-35; Romans 5:8; 1 Corinthians 15:1-3; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:15-17, 2:9; 1 Timothy 2:5; Revelation 19).
    Section 5. God the Holy Spirit: We teach the Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinity. He is eternal, underived, possessing all the attributes of personality and deity. As a spirit, He possesses no body. Although distinct from the Father and the Son as a person and in function, He is coequal and consubstantial with Them in divine attributes. We recognize His sovereign activity in the creation (Genesis 1:2); the incarnation (Matthew 1:18); the written revelation (2 Peter 1:20-21); and the work of salvation (John 3:5-7). Under the Old Covenant economy, He did not permanently indwell people, but came upon certain saints for unique times and purposes. We teach a unique work of the Holy Spirit in this age began at Pentecost when He came from the Father as promised by Christ (John 14:16-17, 15:26; Acts 1-2) to initiate and complete the building of the body of Christ. His ministry includes convicting the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment; glorifying the Lord Jesus Christ (John 16:7-9; Acts 1:5, 2:4); baptizing all believers into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:12); giving spiritual gifts to Christians as He wills (1 Corinthians 12); indwelling believers at the moment of salvation, and sealing them until the day of redemption, while leading, sanctifying, instructing, comforting and empowering them for service (Romans 8:9-11, 29; 2 Corinthians 3:6; Ephesians 1:13).
    Section 6. Creation: We teach that all things were created by God out of nothing (Genesis 1). The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit were all present and active at the time of creation. Angels were created as ministering spirits (Hebrews 1:14), though some, under the leadership of Satan, who is a real personal being and is incorrigible, fell from their sinless state to become agents of evil (Revelation 12:7-9). The universe was created in six literal days, and was very good, and is continuously sustained by God; thus it both reflects His glory and reveals His truth (Exodus 20:11; Psalm 19:1-6; Romans 1:18-20). Human beings were directly created, not evolved, in the very image of God (Genesis 1-2).
    Section 7. Man: We teach that man was directly and immediately created by God in His image and likeness. Man was created free of sin with a rational nature, intelligence, volition, self-determination, and moral responsibility to God (Genesis 2:7; 15-25; James 3:9). We teach that God’s intention in the creation of man was that man should glorify God, enjoy God’s fellowship, live his life in the will of God, and by this accomplish God’s purpose for man in the world (Isaiah 43:7; Colossians 1:16; Revelation 4:11). We teach that Adam was a real man, and through his sin of disobedience to the revealed Word of God, man lost his innocence; incurred the penalty of spiritual and physical death; became subject to the wrath of God; and became inherently corrupt and utterly incapable of choosing or doing that which is acceptable to God apart from divine grace. With no recuperative powers to enable him to recover himself, man is hopelessly lost. Man’s salvation is thereby wholly of God’s grace through the redemptive work of our Lord Jesus Christ (Genesis 2:16-17; 3:1-19; John 3:36; Romans 3:23; 6:23; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians2:1-3; 1 Timothy 2:13-14; 1 John 1:8). We teach that because all men were in Adam, a nature corrupted by Adam’s sin has been transmitted to all people of all ages, Jesus Christ being the only exception. All people are thus sinners by nature (from conception), by choice, and by divine declaration (Psalm 14:1-3; 51:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:9-18, 23; 5:10-12).
    Section 8. Salvation: We teach that salvation is wholly of God, a free gift by His grace, on the basis of the redemption of Jesus Christ, by the merit of His shed blood, and not on the basis of human merit or works (John 1:12; Ephesians 1:4-7; 2:8-10; 1 Peter 1:18-19). We teach that a person can be saved the moment that individual believes in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which entails repenting of sin toward God, acknowledging Jesus as Lord and Savior, trusting in His sacrificial death on the cross which appeased God’s wrath, and believing that He rose bodily from the grave according to the Scriptures (Matthew 4:17; Acts 16:31; 20:21; Romans 1:16; 10:9-10; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This work of salvation is accomplished by the supernatural agency of the Holy Spirit, in an instantaneous moment of time (it is not a process), whereby that person is declared judicially righteous before God (hence, justified); is totally forgiven of all sin; receives eternal life (John 3:16) is adopted into the family of God; becomes a co-heir with Christ (Revelation 3:21); is given a new mind (1 Corinthians 2:16), nature (2 Peter 1:4), and lifestyle (2 Corinthians 5:17); and is endowed with the literal residing presence of God’s Holy Spirit until the mortal body is redeemed (Romans 2:4; 8:9-11, 23; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Titus 3:5).
    Section 9. Sanctification: We teach that at salvation the believer is considered holy and perfect in his status and position before God, but practically the Christian still has to contend with indwelling sin and the flesh, which is our fallen humanity (Romans 7:14-25). We teach that through the work of the Holy Spirit there is a progressive sanctification by which the state of the believer is brought closer to the likeness of Christ through obedience to the Word of God and the empowering of the Holy Spirit. The believer is able to live a life of increasing holiness in conformity to the will of God, becoming more and more like our Lord Jesus Christ, made manifest by godly words, works and behavior (John 17:17, 19; Romans 6:1-22; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Ephesians 2:10; 1 Thessalonians 4:3, 4; 5:23; James 2; 1 John 3). Eradication of sin in the life of a believer is not possible in this life, but is reserved at the future redemption of our mortal bodies; until then the Holy Spirit does provide real victory over the power and penalty of sin (Romans 8:23; Galatians 5:16-25; Ephesians 4:22-24; Colossians 3:9-10; 1 John 1:8-10).
    Section 10. Security: We teach that all the redeemed, once saved, are kept by God’s power and are thus secured in Christ forever; believers who are truly regenerate cannot lose their salvation, or become unregenerate (John 5:24; 6:37-40; 10:27-30; Romans 5:9-10; 8:1, 31-39; 1 Corinthians 1:4-9; Ephesians 4:30; Jude 24). We teach that it is the privilege of believers to rejoice in the assurance of their salvation through the testimony of God’s Word, which, however, clearly forbids the use of Christian liberty as an excuse for sinful living and carnality (Romans 6:15-22; 13:13-14; Galatians 5:13, 16, 17, 25-26; Titus 2:11-14).
    Section 11. The Church: We teach that the Church is the Body of Christ and began on the day of Pentecost, fifty days after Jesus’ death (Acts 2:1 ff.), and consists of a living spiritual body of believers who will be made complete at the coming of Christ for His own at the rapture. The Church is thus a unique spiritual organism designed by Christ, made up of all born-again believers in the present age. The church is distinct from Israel, being a mystery not revealed until this age. (1 Corinthians 10:32; 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Ephesians 2:11-3:6; 5:32). Christ is the Head and Lord of the Church (Ephesians 4:15; 5:30).
    The Church of Christ exists as both a world-wide fellowship of the family of God as well as in specific local congregations (1 Corinthians 11:16), consisting of a community of believers in Jesus Christ who are committed to obedience to Him. The visible Church is subject to mixture and error; and some have so degenerated so as to become difficult to recognize as a Church. Nevertheless, there will always be a true Church on earth to worship God according to His will (Matthew 13:18-23; 36-43; 47-50; 16:18; Revelation 3:1-3; 14-19). Believers in a local church are called by God to gather together to devote themselves to worship, prayer, the teaching of the Word of God, discipleship, observance of baptism and communion as ordinances established by Jesus Christ, and to fellowship and to minister to one another in love and unity through the development and use of talents and spiritual gifts (Acts 2:42-27; 1 Corinthians 11:23-26; Matthew 28:19-20; Ephesians 4:11-13; Galatians 6:10). God has laid upon the members of the local church the primary task of proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the world, beginning in their own communities and reaching to the uttermost parts of the world (Acts 1:8; 2 Corinthians 5:16-20).
    Section 12. The Ordinances: We teach that there are only two ordinances or sacraments instituted by Christ during His ministry, baptism and the Lord’s Supper (or communion). They are to be regularly celebrated by the Church until Jesus returns and are to be administered by those who are called and qualified, according to the commission of Christ (Matthew 28:19-20; 1 Corinthians 4:1; 11:23) Baptism is a sign to the party baptized of his or her fellowship with Christ in His death and resurrection; of being grafted into Him; of remission of sins; and of purposing before God, through Jesus Christ, to live and walk in newness of life. It does not save, but is an outward sign of an inward cleansing. Those who can comprehend the gospel—who actually profess repentance towards God, faith in, and obedience to, our Lord Jesus Christ, are the only proper subjects of this ordinance. The outward element to be used in this ordinance is water, wherein the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Immersion is necessary to the due administration of this ordinance (Romans 6:3-5; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:27; Mark 1:4; Acts 22:16; Matthew 3:13-16; 28:19-20; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38-39, 41; 8:12, 36-39; 18:8; John 3:23).
    The Lord’s Supper is for the remembrance of Christ’s sacrifice and death, the confirmation of the faith of believers in all the benefits of His death, their spiritual nourishment and growth in Him, and their further engagement in and to all duties which they owe to Him; and to be a bond and pledge of their communion with Him, and with each other. In this ordinance, Christ is not offered up to His Father again, nor is any real sacrifice made at all for remission of sin of the living or dead; nor is Christ present in, with and under the elements in any physical way. Rather, the bread and the drink of the vine symbolize the body and blood of Christ, and give a visible sign to believers that Christ was truly sacrificed once for all, and is truly present spiritually in the midst of and in the hearts of His people. All those who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and who are living lives of obedience worthy of Christ, whether members of our local fellowship or not, may partake of the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper (1 Corinthians 10:16-17, 21; 11:23-26; Matthew 18:20; John 14:17, 23; Colossians 1:27; Hebrews 9:24-26; 10:11-14). Unbelievers cannot experience real communion with Christ, and are therefore unworthy of the Lord’s Supper, and cannot, without great sin against Him, partake of these elements while they remain in a state of unbelief and/or disobedience to Christ. Whoever shall receive the elements in an unworthy manner, are guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, eating and drinking judgment on themselves (1 Corinthians 11:27, 29-30).
    Section 13. Death and Eternity: We teach that it is appointed for every person to die physically as a consequence of sin (Hebrews 9:27; Romans 6:23), and upon death incur God’s appropriate judgment. Physical death involves no loss of our immaterial consciousness (Revelation 6:9-11), yet there is a separation of soul and body (James 2:26); the soul of the believer passes immediately into the presence of Christ (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8); and the souls of the unsaved at death are kept under punishment until the second resurrection (Luke 16:19-26; Revelation 20:13-15). There is no soul sleep or purgatory. We teach the bodily resurrection of all people, the saved to eternal life with Christ in glory (John 6:39; Romans 8:19-23; 2 Corinthians 4:14; Philippians 3:20-21); and the resurrection of the unsaved to eternal judgment and everlasting physical, conscious, deserved punishment (Daniel 12:2; John 5:29; Revelation 20:10) in eternal hell, the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41-46; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).
    Section 14. The Future Reign of Christ: We teach the Pre-Tribulational Rapture, which is the imminent, personal, bodily return of Jesus Christ for His Church (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52; John 14:23) to reward believers according to their works (1 Corinthians 3:11-15; 2 Corinthians 5:10). We also believe that Christ will return to the earth at the Second Coming with His angels and the Church, immediately after the Great Tribulation, in power and great glory, to rule on David’s throne from Jerusalem (Matthew 24; Zechariah 14; Colossians 3:4). He will reign on earth with His saints, in righteousness, as King of Kings for 1,000 years over Israel and all the nations of the earth (Revelation 19-20; Isaiah 11; 65:17-25; Ezekiel 37:21-28; Daniel 7:17-22). After the Millennium, Jesus will condemn Satan, demons and all unbelievers to the eternal lake of fire; He will eliminate sin and death; and He will deliver up the kingdom of His saints to God the Father in a new heaven and new earth, so that in all spheres the triune God may reign in glory forever and ever (1 Corinthians 15:23-28; Revelation 20-22).


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Anotherone wrote:

    we’re Christ’s body, people for whom Christ died It means no coffee, no dinners, no movies, no nothing until they come back repentant. Treat them as a pagan tax collector…..What does that mean if someone is in continual unrepentant sin and we go to them in love and we go to them in love, if we put them out we don’t associate with them—I

    Todd,

    Thanks for highlighting this.

    I am beyond nauseated by this pastor's admonition. Come on folks, why do you put up with this?


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    @Anotherone,

    Yes, welcome to The Wartburg Watch and thank you for sharing your painful story of church abuse.


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    Anotherone,

    I hope you will consider sharing your testimony here. It would be so beneficial for those trapped in the 9Marx 'religious' system.

    You can get in touch with me privately at deb@thewartburgwatch.com


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    Deb wrote:

    Come on folks, why do you put up with this?

    New Calvinism, with its assorted error and abuse, would not exist if it weren’t for the multitudes who strangely put up with it. There is surely a spirit involved with the movement which overwhelms and ensnares folks, but it is not a Holy Spirit. The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived. When I was a young man striking out on my own, my father offered snippets of wisdom to help me maneuver through the world. One day, he told me “Son, if you ever get on a bus and find it is going the wrong way, get off at the first stop.” I have found in my Christian journey, that his advice also has application to rides through the 21st century American church.


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    Deb wrote:

    This is a concept I doubt the folks at 9Marks will ever grasp.

    There’s a lot about the Kingdom that 9Marks leaders and followers will never grasp. Their religion is getting in the way.


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    Max wrote:

    . One day, he told me “Son, if you ever get on a bus and find it is going the wrong way, get off at the first stop.” I have found in my Christian journey, that his advice also has application to rides through the 21st century American church.

    Excellent advice.


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    @ Velour:
    Woo.
    Their Statement of Faith(TM) has more Bible bullets in the ammo belt than half a dozen Calvary Chapels. And not even the full rounds, just the Zip Codes. Talking to them must be like talking to a Calvary Chapelite.


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    Thank all of you for your prayers concerning my niece who has been missing for several weeks. Yesterday the Maine State Police found a woman’s body on the property where she and her husband lived. This morning the body was positively identified as my niece. Her husband was arrested and charged with her murder this morning.

    Please pray for my brother and his wife here in South Carolina.

    http://www.centralmaine.com/2016/09/21/husband-of-missing-fairfield-woman-charged-with-murder/


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Woo.
    Their Statement of Faith(TM) has more Bible bullets in the ammo belt than half a dozen Calvary Chapels. And not even the full rounds, just the Zip Codes. Talking to them must be like talking to a Calvary Chapelite.

    Indeed, H.U.G.


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    Max wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    it was a police state

    Calvin’s Geneva was also a police state. The magisterial reformers were buds with the State and persuaded them to enforce “crimes” against Calvin’s belief system. That way Calvin could have the State burn Servetus at the stake and wash his hands of it.

    Total Plausible Deniability for The Great One.

    Multitudes of dissenters to Calvin’s brand of religion were tortured, imprisoned, excommunicated, or executed with the reformers looking on. The magisterial reformers were not nice people. The real reformers suffered at their hands. Geneva was not the utopia Calvin tried to create … by force.

    As much a Utopia as the People’s Utopia of North Korea.

    And the mouths of the Predestined Elect water and drool and their loins harden at the thought of such Absolute POWER by Divine Right. First the churches, then through Quiverfull and Reconstructionism, the government. And Calvin’s Geneva rises again By God’s Omnipotent Will. “Today the Southern Baptists, TOMORROW THE WORLD!”


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    Velour wrote:

    Hassn was in the Moonie cult, recruited in college while he was at a low-point and had just one through a break up. Three women flirted with him and insisted they weren’t in a cult. Love bombing.

    More like “Flirty Fishing” a la Mo David.


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    Dave (Eagle) wrote:

    These churches are located in Thousand Oaks, Ventura, and Camarillo.

    When I was a kid, Camarillo had the local reputation of “The Funny Farm” because of Camarillo State Hospital (i.e. an insane asylum). “Getting Taken to Camarillo” meant getting committed to the crazy house.

    It seems the Predestined Elect have become the new keepers of that tradition.


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    Off-topic and sad update. Uncle Dad who posts here (aka Wayne) has just emailed me an update about his niece who has been missing. A woman’s body was found and her husband has been arrested and charged with her murder.

    Please pray for their family and the parents in South Carolina. Thank you.

    “Thank you for your prayers concerning my niece who has been missing for several weeks. Yesterday the Maine State Police found a woman’s body on the property where she and her husband lived. This morning the body was positively identified as my niece. Her husband was arrested and charged with her murder this morning.

    Please pray for my brother and his wife here in South Carolina.

    http://www.centralmaine.com/2016/09/21/husband-of-missing-fairfield-woman-charged-with-murder/


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    elastigirl wrote:

    i have a tremendous urge to move to Iceland. Or to build a cabin on the alaskan tundra. beyond “their” reach.

    I’ve often dreamed of an art and science colony at a remote location on the Baja peninsula. A place where technology is only a means to an end and not the end in itself. A place where the best in humanity is cultivated and nurtured. Perfection? Utopia? Nope, not at all, perfection is a fool’s errand. But I do believe that the worst abuses of our dark sides can be restrained and contained.


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    Velour wrote:

    And it’s sad but not surprising that 9 Mark won’t engage with people who comment and their comments get ignored.

    The one Anonymous Brother poignantly addressed the issue of pastors who shun someone just because they won’t sign up and “join”… crickets chirping from Keys Leeman.


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    Uncle dad

    I am so srry for this horrific loss. I am praying for you and your family.


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    Dave A A wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    And it’s sad but not surprising that 9 Mark won’t engage with people who comment and their comments get ignored.
    The one Anonymous Brother poignantly addressed the issue of pastors who shun someone just because they won’t sign up and “join”… crickets chirping from Keys Leeman

    Of course they are silent. If they acknowledge the comments/questions they in turn legitimize them, and once legitimate, those questions must be addressed with some thought. The 9M leaders know their responses will ultimately sound hollow in the light of the gospel they say they preach. Therefore, ignoring the comments/questions becomes vital.

    And when they do address certain comments/questions, they do so by misrepresenting the point by creating a straw man of an issue, and then formulate and answer with so many points that will either lose or confuse the reader –argumentum verbosium.


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    @ Uncle Dad:

    I’m sorry to hear this. I will be praying for your family. This is devestating for all of you.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    More like “Flirty Fishing” a la Mo David.

    I was a target of the Children of God (Moses David’s outfit) flirty fishing back in the 70’s. It’s very weird at first, until it becomes obvious what’s going on.


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    Dave A A wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    And it’s sad but not surprising that 9 Mark won’t engage with people who comment and their comments get ignored.
    The one Anonymous Brother poignantly addressed the issue of pastors who shun someone just because they won’t sign up and “join”… crickets chirping from Keys Leeman.

    At my former church, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley, which was written about in Todd Wilhelm’s article and in my review on Amazon under the name “Grace’, the pastors/elders announced from the pulpit that Christians couldn’t attend church at all if they weren’t willing to sign a Membership Covenant!

    My cheeks blushed bright red with shame and embarrassment.

    There’s nothing quite like having snotty, rude, immature, crass, unwelcoming pastors/elders who are a public embarrassment to all. New comers got up and walked out. Didn’t stay for the entire church sermon. Yes, why bother when they’re this snotty and rude at GBFSV.

    The pastors/elders would also announce from the pulpit that they didn’t know if you were one of theirs if you didn’t sign a Membership Covenant. The senior pastor Cliff would say with great drama and fanfare, and more galling rudeness, that he was always shocked that people considered him their pastor when they hadn’t signed a Membership Covenant and “thanks for telling me that because I didn’t know that!”

    A senior pastor who is nearly 50 years old and behaves like a second grader.

    They say that they will give an account to God for our souls and so we must sign.
    OK, I can imagine how that conversation is going to go with God.

    I can’t imagine God is impressed by such deplorable, un-Christian conduct.

    9 Marx and the rest of them need a group discount for Charm School.


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    Uncle Dad wrote:

    Thank all of you for your prayers concerning my niece who has been missing for several weeks. Yesterday the Maine State Police found a woman’s body on the property where she and her husband lived. This morning the body was positively identified as my niece. Her husband was arrested and charged with her murder this morning.

    So sorry to hear that. I am glad they caught her husband, though. I hope they have enough evidence for a slam dunk trial verdict,
    My husband is from ME. In 2007, one of his nieces died in an auto accident in Canaan, ME — less than 20 miles from where your niece died.


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    @ Uncle Dad:

    Uncle Dad, I’m heartbroken to hear about your niece. You and your family will be in my prayers.


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    Velour wrote:

     By Laws
    http://www.gbfsv.org/by-laws

    Uhg. If they have excommunicated you, you really should send them a “Thank you!” card!


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:
     By Laws
    http://www.gbfsv.org/by-laws
    Uhg. If they have excommunicated you, you really should send them a “Thank you!” card!

    Indeed!


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    @ Uncle Dad:
    May the Lord bring you and your family comfort and peace and may justice be done swiftly. I am so very sorry.


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    Dave A A wrote:

    crickets chirping from Keys Leeman.

    I imagine they are still huddling at HQ. Keys will most likely not respond hoping it will all go away. I do not think it will all go away because what they are teaching is not like Jesus. At all. The stories of the practical consequences of their obsession with Authority have just begun to be told. I do not think they will change until the spigot runs dry and/or their daughters are caught in abusive marriages to the men who have been taught to see themselves as Authorities.


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    @ Uncle Dad:

    I am so, so sorry. I’ll definitely keep you and your brother’s family in my prayers.


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    Velour wrote:

    A senior pastor who is nearly 50 years old and behaves like a second grader.

    The one who rubs it in your faces that He WILL be riding a Celestial Horse at Christ’s Right Hand at the Battle of Armageddon?


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    roebuck wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    More like “Flirty Fishing” a la Mo David.

    I was a target of the Children of God (Moses David’s outfit) flirty fishing back in the 70’s. It’s very weird at first, until it becomes obvious what’s going on.

    “Mo David and the COGs” — sounds like a Sixties band name.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Dave A A wrote:
    crickets chirping from Keys Leeman.
    I imagine they are still huddling at HQ. Keys will most likely not respond hoping it will all go away.

    “If you pretend something bad doesn’t exist, maybe it’ll go away.”
    I’ve seen that one in action. It only works if you’re in Absolute POWER over everybody and everything to where YOU get to define reality.


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    @ Velour:

    Geesh. That so-called statement of faith is bigger than some NT books.


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    @ Uncle Dad:

    Just now reading your comment. I am so sorry about your niece. 🙁 Please know that you and your loved ones are in my prayers.


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    Velour wrote:

    I love when A. Amos Love shows up to remind the saints of these points.

    I’ve often wondered if A.Amos Love and Sopwith are connected.
    Both seem to have a similar quirky style.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    A senior pastor who is nearly 50 years old and behaves like a second grader.
    The one who rubs it in your faces that He WILL be riding a Celestial Horse at Christ’s Right Hand at the Battle of Armageddon?

    The very same HUG.

    For having such a superior memory for details, proceed to your nearest See’s Candy for a free sample. Tell them I sent you. Tell them you need Nick’s free sample too.


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    @ Velour:

    Geesh. That so-called statement of faith is bigger than some NT books.

    It’s called “Bloviating”.
    Gotta remind the Pewpeons and Heathen how Godly *WE* Are, and if you can’t dazzle them with brilliance…


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    Max wrote:

    MacArthur seems so out of place at these New Calvinist gatherings. He should, at least, leave his tie at home! He is a classical Calvinist who just doesn’t fit with the message and mission of the new reformation. But, I suppose he puts up with his neo-brethren as long as the basic tenets of reformed theology are advanced across the Christian landscape. Plus, it is great for book sales! The young folks never liked him before … but if the New Calvinist leaders invite him to run with them, he must be OK in their minds. The NC who’s-who are using Generation Xers and Millennials (their target market), but the youngsters ain’t got a clue.

    Nah, he’s not out of place. He’s in his element with other authoritarian types. The fact that they’re also a brand of calvinist not too far from his own theological leanings just seals the deal. He props them up and you can bet he expects they’ll do the same for him. BTW, the latest sermon on his blog is titled “The Love God Hates,” which he somehow gets from I John 2:15-17.

    I really is all about power and authority.


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Geesh. That so-called statement of faith is bigger than some NT books.

    Notice the opening claim to authoritarianism. It’s “mandated” to control Christians.
    Ohhhh puhhhhhlllllssseeeee.

    I’m serious Wartburgers—can you start evaluating this document so I can post the problems you find with it on my blog and on Facebook.


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    Velour wrote:

    The very same HUG.
    For having such a superior memory for details, proceed to your nearest See’s Candy for a free sample.

    Don’t need that much of a memory for details.
    That level of delusional kinda sticks in your mind.


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    @ John:
    *it really is all about power and authority.*


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    The very same HUG.
    For having such a superior memory for details, proceed to your nearest See’s Candy for a free sample.
    Don’t need that much of a memory for details.
    That level of delusional kinda sticks in your mind.

    LOL.

    I sent Julie Anne at Spiritual Sounding Board some dark chocolates from See’s recently, post surgery for her to recover properly. They told me I had to order online because of the heat and they pack it a special way to make sure it doesn’t melt and ship it fast.

    So I consoled myself by buying a 1-pound box of chocolates for my home. Sigh.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Ken F wrote:

    I don’t know why I did not notice this earlier. The 9Marks church search page has this in bold red letters:

    “DISCLAIMER: A church’s appearance in the Church Search tool should not be viewed as an endorsement by 9Marks.”

    Translation: We will tell everybody how to organize a hierarchical church and control the flock, but don’t blame us when they actually implement our plan!

    “Sign this, please. It absolves me from all blame.”
    — Lucy Van Pelt, Peanuts


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    Velour wrote:

    LOL.
    I sent Julie Anne at Spiritual Sounding Board some dark chocolates from See’s recently, post surgery for her to recover properly.

    DARK Chocolate.
    GOOD Stuff.
    I have to stay away from it or I’d weigh over 300 lbs (150 kilos) instead of 200.


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    @ Uncle Dad:

    I’m so sorry for you and your family.


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    John wrote:

    Nah, he’s not out of place. He’s in his element with other authoritarian types. The fact that they’re also a brand of calvinist not too far from his own theological leanings just seals the deal. He props them up and you can bet he expects they’ll do the same for him. BTW, the latest sermon on his blog is titled “The Love God Hates,” which he somehow gets from I John 2:15-17.
    I really is all about power and authority.

    I absolutely agree. He is no different.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I have to stay away from it or I’d weigh over 300 lbs (150 kilos) instead of 200.

    I love food, and exercise (for instance, today I knocked nearly 5 minutes off my recent best time for the run up Ben Cleuch*. Equally, I finished my daughter’s lentil and chorizo stew at tea-time, and I’m about to go and ice the large chocolate sponge I made earlier.)

    If I didn’t love exercise, I’d be built like a sphere. If I didn’t love food, I’d be built like a straight line.

    * Just inside 62 minutes for the ascent, and just inside 35 for the descent. I have run up it in well under an hour, albeit by a more direct route, but that was 15 years ago. I can’t hope to compete against my 33-year-old self!


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    ION:

    Northampton Town have just equalised against EvilChester United!

    IHTIH


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    @ Uncle Dad:

    That is so bad to hear. There are just no words to say in such a situation. I am so sorry and will pray for you and yours.


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    @ Uncle Dad:
    Uncle Dad, we are grieved to hear this news. We are praying for you and your brother’s family.


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    Velour wrote:

    the pastors/elders announced from the pulpit that Christians couldn’t attend church at all if they weren’t willing to sign a Membership Covenant!

    A church I visited once 16 years ago, when I was looking for a church, did something similar. That pastor turned his back on the congregation and said that if we did not give into the church building fund, he would turn his back on us and we might as well not be members. I was shocked and disgusted and never went back. It went on to become the biggest mega in our area. Sigh.

    Sadly, the next church I went to love bombed and ended up being the cult where I was snared for 7 years.


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    @ Uncle Dad:

    I am so sorry that this happened. I am praying for you and you family.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    https://9marks.org/article/the-abuse-of-authority-in-prosperity-gospel-churches/

    Thanks for the link, Nancy2. It looks like Mr. Horton (a leading New Calvinist) wants to lay all the blame on authoritarian leadership abuse on the prosperity preachers! Yet, there is a steady stream of reports on member abuse, wayward ministries and failed ministers coming from the New Calvinist tribe. To be slightly on topic, this does not enhance the reformed brand.


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    @ Velour:

    Holy you know what! That’s quite the manifesto they require you to sign onto. Tell me though, do they recruit many of the kids fresh out of Stanford? Or are they just a lot of wind on their growth projections?


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Holy you know what! That’s quite the manifesto they require you to sign onto. Tell me though, do they recruit many of the kids fresh out of Stanford? Or are they just a lot of wind on their growth projections?

    Yes, it’s alarming — the documents at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley and the way the pastors/elders have been re-writing them to exert more and more control over grown adults. All of it is UNBIBLICAL!

    Yes, the church has managed to make inroads over at Stanford University, the elite private school. They started off with a Bible study and got undergraduate and graduate students to invite their friends, many of them Asian students who are pretty quiet.

    They have Bible studies in homes in very nice neighborhoods.

    I don’t think it was a mistake that they targeted Stanford students, with their potential high net worth parents (many of them) or potential to be high net worth earners (given that they are in top academic programs at Stanford in engineering, medicine, etc).

    The pastors/elders conveniently bypassed the poorer and more liberal student body at San Jose State.


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    @ Jeannette Altes:

    That’s sad. All of it.

    I’m just glad to be out of that level of insanity and to walk the Christian faith without all of that nonsense. The Gospel + [name extra doctrine of men added on…Complementarianism, Patriarchy, Young Earth Creation, etc.].


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    @ Uncle Dad:

    I’m so sorry, Uncle Dad. I pray the Lord will comfort the family.


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    @ Todd Wilhelm:
    Todd – I have had that very thought many times before!


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    Velour wrote:

    The Gospel + [name extra doctrine of men added on…Complementarianism, Patriarchy, Young Earth Creation, etc.].

    Devastating news about Uncle Dad’s niece. Praying for the family.

    I was looking at the phrase ‘The Gospel + [name extra doctrine of men added on…Complementarianism, Patriarchy, Young Earth Creation, etc.’ and it occurred that the ‘additions’ have replaced the vibrant ‘Good News’ with a wretched denial of the ‘natural law’ of God’s gift of reason, and a huge face-palm to the freedom and the reconciliation of humankind ‘in Christ’, the new Adam, with a restoration of a human dignity and wholeness not recognized UNTIL the Incarnation.

    They are a cult in formation, Velour. They bear witness to ‘male’ supremacy, not to Lord Christ of the Cosmos. A different gospel they teach with no joyful euangelion. The absence of joy is ONE sign, together with the pointing away from Christ to their male-headship worship, that the Holy Spirit is not a part of their endeavors. If the Spirit’s Presence was recognized in them, like Him they would point only to Christ, and they would be filled with the joy of the Presence of the Holy Spirit.


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    @Uncle Dad – how so very tragic. Praying for you and your family. No words.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    DARK Chocolate.
    GOOD Stuff.

    Among the teaching profession, it is known that dark chocolate is curative of stress, headaches, and lower back pain from bending over too many desks in one day.
    It also helps to eat it from a large box while elevating one’s slipper-shod feet in a luxury recliner and watching anything but the national news on tv


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    @ Christiane:

    Thank you for your lovely comment. I agree with you on every point.


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    @ Uncle Dad:

    So sorry to hear this news, Uncle Dad.


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    Max wrote:

    https://9marks.org/article/the-abuse-of-authority-in-prosperity-gospel-churches/

    Thanks for the link, Nancy2. It looks like Mr. Horton (a leading New Calvinist) wants to lay all the blame on authoritarian leadership abuse on the prosperity preachers!

    Is he really this clueless or is it mis-direction, i.e. the local philandering politician speaking against immorality.


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    Velour wrote:

    the pastors/elders announced from the pulpit that Christians couldn’t attend church at all if they weren’t willing to sign a Membership Covenant!

    Has nothing to do with the biblical, historic Christian faith, but sounds a lot like the mark of the Beast, doesn’t it?

    These professing “churches” have reached the stage where no follower of Jesus can be part of them; only those who have renounced Jesus as their Lord can join.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    the pastors/elders announced from the pulpit that Christians couldn’t attend church at all if they weren’t willing to sign a Membership Covenant!
    Has nothing to do with the biblical, historic Christian faith, but sounds a lot like the mark of the Beast, doesn’t it?
    These professing “churches” have reached the stage where no follower of Jesus can be part of them; only those who have renounced Jesus as their Lord can join.

    Nick,

    If you have any time could you take a look at the long Statement of Faith that I posted from Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (my former church) and give me your thoughts.

    I’d like to post on my blog and Facebook a story about these documents, but would like the insight from others in to the documents.

    As for my take: I look at it all and think where is Jesus in any of this? This is about men putting themselves on the throne. Jesus doesn’t worry about this kind of drivel and wouldn’t impose it on people.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    One of the things that just occurred to me about my ex-church Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley is that in order to leave the church you have to meet with two pastors/elders for an ‘exit interview’ versus when someone wanted to leave Jesus let them go, no exit interviews. Ditto the Apostle Paul.


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    @ Anotherone ~~

    I feel for what you went through.

    Imo, anyone who leaves a group with leaders who refuse to stand up to an abuser shows true discernment.

    Refusing to buy the abusers’ lies is One True Mark of Godliness in my book.

    I got the whole “no contact” treatment, too. I can laugh about a lot of the stuff now . . . but that took awhile.

    People sharing their similar experiences help immensely. Every post shines more light.

    I just have to ask . . . Did you get this one?

    A couple I had just had a pleasant conversation with the day before, literally ran and hid — one behind a convenient dumpster and one behind a big tree — when they saw me approaching down the street.

    I’m thinking . . seriously?….run-and-hide-the-Bible-tells-you-so?

    Oh, wait. Make that: the pastor tells me so.


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    Velour wrote:

    As for my take: I look at it all and think where is Jesus in any of this? This is about men putting themselves on the throne.

    Yes.
    Have these men forgotten that the only time Our Lord was ever lifted up was on the Cross ?

    These men shame themselves.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    3 comments on this article, so far. 2 by A Amos Love, plus another commenter. They hammered the writer!

    What a stunning display of cluelessness on the part of 9Marks. They really don’t get it.


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    Bill M wrote:

    Is he really this clueless

    When you walk the party-line, you turn a blind eye and deaf ear to that which goes on in the party.

    I chuckled a bit when I read Horton’s words “There’s no greater evidence of trustworthy leadership than leaders who have a high view of the biblical qualifications and a low-view of self.”

    There is a tremendous shortage of “low-view of self” in New Calvinist ranks!


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    Ken F wrote:

    They really don’t get it.

    As Scripture says “They are blind guides leading the blind.”


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    Max wrote:

    Ken F wrote:
    They really don’t get it.
    As Scripture says “They are blind guides leading the blind.”

    And The Wartburg Watch is my ‘service animal’. Woof.


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    trs wrote:

    A couple I had just had a pleasant conversation with the day before, literally ran and hid — one behind a convenient dumpster and one behind a big tree — when they saw me approaching down the street.

    When I walked away from the cultic church, I had people that I had worked in the church office with every day see me in the store and turn and hurry away….yeah. it sucks.


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    Jeannette Altes wrote:

    trs wrote:

    A couple I had just had a pleasant conversation with the day before, literally ran and hid — one behind a convenient dumpster and one behind a big tree — when they saw me approaching down the street.

    When I walked away from the cultic church, I had people that I had worked in the church office with every day see me in the store and turn and hurry away….yeah. it sucks.

    Such horrible and ungodly treatment.


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    Max wrote:

    Bill M wrote:

    Is he really this clueless

    When you walk the party-line, you turn a blind eye and deaf ear to that which goes on in the party.

    I chuckled a bit when I read Horton’s words “There’s no greater evidence of trustworthy leadership than leaders who have a high view of the biblical qualifications and a low-view of self.”

    There is a tremendous shortage of “low-view of self” in New Calvinist ranks!

    Max it is still stunning to me the way those that TOOKOVER the Southern Baptist Convention turned Christians against Christians and treated those they cast out as if they were not even human. IMO that evil spirit lives on in the SBC with the NEO-Cals and Traditionalist fighting each other.


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    mot wrote:

    Such horrible and ungodly treatment.

    “Shunning” is not acceptable Christian practice, no matter what your church leadership says! It is an archaic exercise designed to control, intimidate and manipulate … behavior which does not exemplify the fruit of the Spirit. Churches which display such practice should be shunned (I mean avoided).


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    mot wrote:

    IMO that evil spirit lives on in the SBC with the NEO-Cals and Traditionalist fighting each other.

    Well, there is nothing Holy Spirit about it, that’s for sure! Scripture says that when you bite and devour one another, you will be destroyed by one another. The current rift may darn well be the end of a once-great evangelistic organization.


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    Max wrote:

    “Shunning” is not acceptable Christian practice, no matter what your church leadership says! It is an archaic exercise designed to control, intimidate and manipulate … behavior which does not exemplify the fruit of the Spirit. Churches which display such practice should be shunned (I mean avoided).

    These churches completely miss the point. They typically misuse Matt 18 as a discipline hammer, they bring in investigators rather than witnesses, and when they get to the part about treating the offender as an unbeliever they quickly forget how Jesus treated unbelievers. Unbelievable.


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    Max wrote:

    mot wrote:

    Such horrible and ungodly treatment.

    “Shunning” is not acceptable Christian practice, no matter what your church leadership says! It is an archaic exercise designed to control, intimidate and manipulate … behavior which does not exemplify the fruit of the Spirit. Churches which display such practice should be shunned (I mean avoided).

    I have seen that most people are in such fear of others turning against them in a church environement that they will just go along with the mistreatment of another human being. Nothing Christ like about that at all.


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    Thank all of you for your prayers and condolences. As I have been telling folks here who don’t know what to say when I tell them what happened, in times like these, I need an ear, not a mouth.


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    @ Uncle Dad:

    Oh, I’m so sorry to hear this. I had hoped for happier news. How terribly tragic.


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    mot wrote:

    I have seen that most people are in such fear of others turning against them in a church environement that they will just go along with the mistreatment of another human being.

    Make an Example of one and a hundred will fall right into line.

    Especially if the threat of Eternal Hell/Being Left Behind is factored in.


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    trs wrote:

    I’m thinking . . seriously?….run-and-hide-the-Bible-tells-you-so?
    Oh, wait. Make that: the pastor tells me so.

    With these churches and the pastors’ opinion of themselves, NO DIFFERENCE.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Make an Example of one and a hundred will fall right into line.

    And then the bullies’ (like at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley pastors/elders) luck runs out and they cross a rascal like me. And what do I do? Launch an entire blog about them, on Facebook, Twitter, and around the world people have read about them.

    Friends in Europe said that my ex-pastors/elders surely never thought that it would launch an entire blog.

    But, really, I insist. If they’re proud enough to behave that way, then they’re proud enough for me to brag about it.


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    @Uncle Dad,
    So very, very sorry to hear the devastating news. Many prayers for your family. May God bring peace and comfort to you. May God reveal His truth to those that are hurting.


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    I wonder if 9 Marks is rebranding because it’s starting to go the way of Purpose Driven.
    My wife’s church had a membership covenant but it doesn’t seem to be in place anymore.
    These fads only have so much shelf life before the next ‘big thing’.
    Don’t know what’s hip with the kids in church anymore.


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    mot wrote:

    I have seen that most people are in such fear of others turning against them in a church environment that they will just go along with the mistreatment of another human being. Nothing Christ like about that at all.

    The organized church in America has drifted so far from the holy standard that it’s darn near impossible to find Jesus anywhere near it. You certainly won’t find Him hanging out in religious institutions where folks mistreat each other, while claiming His name. If love ain’t there, He ain’t either!


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    Jack wrote:

    I wonder if 9 Marks is rebranding because it’s starting to go the way of Purpose Driven.

    Probably. A good sign that a movement has run its course is when its popular books show up on yard sale tables. I see Warren’s “Purpose Driven Life” EVERYWHERE for 25-50 cents (I don’t buy them). I expect Dever’s “Nine Marks of a Healthy Church” will make the garage sale circuit soon. Piper’s books are also starting to run out of steam – saw a few last Saturday while shopping at yard sales for vintage fishing gear. Praise the Lord!


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    Uncle Dad,

    I’m so very sorry for your loss. I’m praying for comfort for all of you.


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    If they are trying to rebrand, their latest post did them no favors.


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    Just read a good post by Kyle Borg “The Monster We Created: Councils, Brand Names, and Celebrities.” Borg nails it on the head! I may not agree with his theology (reformed), but he certainly says it like it is on this issue.

    http://gentlereformation.com/2016/09/12/the-monster-we-created-councils-brand-names-and-celebrities/


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    Ken F wrote:

    What a stunning display of cluelessness on the part of 9Marks. They really don’t get it.

    I’m not so sure ………
    Maybe they’re just running a bluff in an effort to cast blame elsewhere.
    Just a thought.


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    Max wrote:

    I expect Dever’s “Nine Marks of a Healthy Church” will make the garage sale circuit soon. Piper’s books are also starting to run out of steam – saw a few last Saturday while shopping at yard sales for vintage fishing gear. Praise the Lord!

    If you can find one. Dever’s a pimple on the publishing power buttocks of Warren. BTW, I see Warren’s tome at a local Goodwill for 50 cents regularly. I think it’s the same book just sitting there that no one wants, so passe.


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    trs wrote:

    @ Anotherone ~~
    I feel for what you went through.
    Imo, anyone who leaves a group with leaders who refuse to stand up to an abuser shows true discernment.
    Refusing to buy the abusers’ lies is One True Mark of Godliness in my book.
    I got the whole “no contact” treatment, too. I can laugh about a lot of the stuff now . . . but that took awhile.
    People sharing their similar experiences help immensely. Every post shines more light.
    I just have to ask . . . Did you get this one?
    A couple I had just had a pleasant conversation with the day before, literally ran and hid — one behind a convenient dumpster and one behind a big tree — when they saw me approaching down the street.
    I’m thinking . . seriously?….run-and-hide-the-Bible-tells-you-so?
    Oh, wait. Make that: the pastor tells me so.

    I still get the reflexive forced smile, followed by the quick eye aversion and quick move away from me down the Walmart aisle. No running from me, far as I’ve noticed.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Has nothing to do with the biblical, historic Christian faith, but sounds a lot like the mark of the Beast, doesn’t it?
    These professing “churches” have reached the stage where no follower of Jesus can be part of them; only those who have renounced Jesus as their Lord can join.

    I think it’s gone this far as well. Safer out than in, at least for our family, at least in this place and time. Hoping for something better.


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    Uncle Dad wrote:

    Thank all of you for your prayers and condolences. As I have been telling folks here who don’t know what to say when I tell them what happened, in times like these, I need an ear, not a mouth.

    So sorry to hear. Terrible!


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    “When a good person meets a bad system, the system always wins.” – Frank Voehl, and posted by Simon Sinek today.


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    @ Muff Potter:

    “….an art and science colony at a remote location on the Baja peninsula. A place where technology is only a means to an end and not the end in itself. A place where the best in humanity is cultivated and nurtured. Perfection? Utopia? Nope, not at all, perfection is a fool’s errand. But I do believe that the worst abuses of our dark sides can be restrained and contained.”
    ++++++++++++++

    i’d sell most of my worldly goods to be a part of something like that. art & music with nothing to distract and compromise integrity. Random and purposeful acts of kindness, senseless and purposeful acts of beauty. science…. a free-for-all, or with goals that the group is working towards?

    tell me more about your vision for this colony.


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    JYJames wrote:

    “When a good person meets a bad system, the system always wins.” – Frank Voehl, and posted by Simon Sinek today.

    … libera nos a malo


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    elastigirl wrote:

    tell me more about your vision for this colony.

    We would live in Tiny Homes.

    We would have a huge vegetable garden, fruit trees, chickens, and other livestock.

    There would be a beautiful pond for rowing/kayaking, etc. Maybe stocked with fish.


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    I am so very sorry, uncle dad.


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    Uncle Dad,
    So sorry to hear this tragic news. Strength to all who knew and loved her.


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    Velour wrote:

    We would live in Tiny Homes.

    Tiny homes????
    Where’d do I put my sewing machines, pressure cookers, water bath canners, home canned garden foods, jam, jelly, chest freezer, upright freezer, 4 dogs, wood heater, and ……. and… and ….Other stuff, you know?
    Think big, Velour. Think big!


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    We would live in Tiny Homes.

    Tiny homes????
    Where’d do I put my sewing machines, pressure cookers, water bath canners, home canned garden foods, jam, jelly, chest freezer, upright freezer, 4 dogs, wood heater, and ……. and… and ….Other stuff, you know?
    Think big, Velour. Think big!

    🙂
    ah no, you also would thrive to return to a simpler time especially in the season of harvest in the country, yes?

    In celebration of simple living and the coming of autumn to our land:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr1qiKoMyQ8


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    We would live in Tiny Homes.
    Tiny homes????
    Where’d do I put my sewing machines, pressure cookers, water bath canners, home canned garden foods, jam, jelly, chest freezer, upright freezer, 4 dogs, wood heater, and ……. and… and ….Other stuff, you know?
    Think big, Velour. Think big!

    Did you say sewing machines, plural?

    LOL.

    We will figure out the details at Camp Backbone. Maybe we could have kinda of a barn-building type of thing.

    Or you can have a tiny home, a tiny home sewing room, and a massive garage.


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    Christiane wrote:

    ah no, you also would thrive to return to a simpler time especially in the season of harvest in the country, yes?
    In celebration of simple living and the coming of autumn to our land:

    Harvest in the country?
    Christiane, I canned homegrown sweet potatoes last week in my 23 quart pressure canner. I made pear honey and pear jam this week …….
    We don’t have a basement, so I neeeeeeeeed my pantry space.
    My grandma used to set her big cast iron kettles up in the yard, build fires beneath them, then tend the fires and simmer jars of food all day, just to make the food safe to eat in later. So, I’m a bit addicted to my pressure cookers and my water bath canners!


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    @ Nancy2:

    Nancy2, Do you make that jam cake I’ve heard so much about from your part of the U.S.
    Layers of cake and jam in between. I guess in olden times people would each bring a layer of cake, including to weddings, and it would be assembled there with jam. Or so I’ve heard.


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    Velour wrote:

    Did you say sewing machines, plural?

    2 sewing machines – a simple one and an embroidery/ special stitches machine with button holer, etc. I also have a big pressure canner, 3 other pressure cookers, and 3 water bath canners. ………. Then there’s my crochet yarn ….
    The sewing machines have a place on a closet shelf. The pressure canner and water bath canners stay in the attic when not in use. The smaller pressure cookers stay in my kitchen!
    There’s more …… between the empties and the ones in use, I probably have over 400 canning jars, in various sizes.
    I think it might have been a mistake to ever let my husband (then boyfriend) find out that I know how to sew, cook, preserve food, and make jams, jellies, etc.
    I was tko one summer with a severe illness and my husband had to help a lot with the canning. He’s been in on the jam and jelly making ever since. As long as he used packaged pectin, he is an ace at making jam and jelly, now! He can find everything and do it all by himself! I wish he’d learn to sew!


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    Velour wrote:

    Nancy2, Do you make that jam cake I’ve heard so much about from your part of the U.S.
    Layers of cake and jam in between. I guess in olden times people would each bring a layer of cake, including to weddings, and it would be assembled there with jam. Or so I’ve heard.

    Yes, I do. 3 layers, with homemade Caramel frosting.
    My mom use to work as a cook at a restaurant. She’s retired, but people still call her and ask her to make jam cakes for them for Thanksgiving.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Harvest in the country?
    Christiane, I canned homegrown sweet potatoes last week in my 23 quart pressure canner. I made pear honey and pear jam this week …….
    We don’t have a basement, so I neeeeeeeeed my pantry space.
    My grandma used to set her big cast iron kettles up in the yard, build fires beneath them, then tend the fires and simmer jars of food all day, just to make the food safe to eat in later. So, I’m a bit addicted to my pressure cookers and my water bath canners!

    weeeellll, I’ve got solution, inspired by your name, Nancy Two: two tiny houses – one to live in and the other for storage and storage and storage and …. 🙂

    VELOUR, you know that in the northern part of the states, up in Massachusetts, folks are beginning ‘community gardening’ where everyone in town can come and raise food on their own plot in the middle of the town plot. . . . . whole societies are being formed around these community gardens: people are sharing and exchanging, there are cook-offs and canning and jam-making parties with much sharing, food is donated to the elderly in the town and to the indigent, and everybody eats well

    I am sure that whatever Eden was, it MUST have literally been a real garden …. I love your thoughts about living more simply and those new tiny houses for sale out there are WONDERFUL!!!! it’s time for folks to get real and give up the five bedroom McMansions with the three reception rooms and all the expense of maintaining so much extra unneeded property ….

    yeah, it would be good for folks to ‘come down where they ought to be’ as per the Quaker hymn of simple living … I think we all might be happier for it 🙂
    I so envy your resourcefulness


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    As long as he used packaged pectin, he is an ace at making jam and jelly, now! He can find everything and do it all by himself! I wish he’d learn to sew

    Wonderful!

    When can I expect a care package. You know NOT the NeoCalvinist kind of ‘care’. The bona fide Jesus kind of ‘care’.


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    Christiane wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:
    Harvest in the country?
    Christiane, I canned homegrown sweet potatoes last week in my 23 quart pressure canner. I made pear honey and pear jam this week …….
    We don’t have a basement, so I neeeeeeeeed my pantry space.
    My grandma used to set her big cast iron kettles up in the yard, build fires beneath them, then tend the fires and simmer jars of food all day, just to make the food safe to eat in later. So, I’m a bit addicted to my pressure cookers and my water bath canners!
    weeeellll, I’ve got solution, inspired by your name, Nancy Two: two tiny houses – one to live in and the other for storage and storage and storage and ….
    VELOUR, you know that in the northern part of the states, up in Massachusetts, folks are beginning ‘community gardening’ where everyone in town can come and raise food on their own plot in the middle of the town plot. . . . . whole societies are being formed around these community gardens: people are sharing and exchanging, there are cook-offs and canning and jam-making parties with much sharing, food is donated to the elderly in the town and to the indigent, and everybody eats well
    I am sure that whatever Eden was, it MUST have literally been a real garden …. I love your thoughts about living more simply and those new tiny houses for sale out there are WONDERFUL!!!! it’s time for folks to get real and give up the five bedroom McMansions with the three reception rooms and all the expense of maintaining so much extra unneeded property ….
    yeah, it would be good for folks to ‘come down where they ought to be’ as per the Quaker hymn of simple living … I think we all might be happier for it
    I so envy your resourcefulness

    Oh, that’s a wonderful comment, Christiane!

    I’m a thrower-outer. I just keep moving things out of my life that I’m not using.
    I give some things to Goodwill or Salvation Army. But most things I have to give away (pots, pans, cups and saucers, vases, blankets, etc.) I wash and take to an apartment building in my city with many immigrants. I leave the things on brown paper bags or boxes near the recyling container. Therefore the first person who comes can take whatever they like.

    I try to leave things on different days, at different times, so that one person doesn’t get everything.

    I used shoe boxes and put some glass ware in each one, some mugs, some china cups, sugar and creamer, etc. I dropped them off there different days. I’ve done the same with blankets and put them in plastic storage bags. I do it with books, including children’s books and cookbooks. I figure that these things can make a difference in the lives of people who don’t have a lot of extra money to spend.


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    Ladies, ladies, I love the sidebar…


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    JYJames wrote:

    Ladies, ladies, I love the sidebar…

    JY James rushes in where angeles fear to tread….[LOL.]

    Look it, it’s the middle of the night and most everyone is supposed to be asleep, therefore the ladies are allowed to digress.


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    Off-topic. An important comment was left on the Open Discussion thread for
    Uncle Dad and family.

    Tikatu UNITED STATES on Wed Sep 21, 2016 at 10:05 PM said:
    Uncle Dad, your niece babysat my kids when they were small. She was in my AWANA club. She worked at our local Great Clips for a while. I know her family though we’ve lost touch since we left the church. I hurt so much for her parents and I am praying for them.


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Here’s a starter list of where we’ve seen this tactic happen: Calvary Chapel, 9 Marks, Acts29, The Gospel Coalition, Together for the Gospel. What other non-official networks can you add?

    No Greater Joy Ministries — aka Michael and Debbie Pearl. The masters of “I Wash My Hands of Any Negative Results”.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    I made pear honey and pear jam this week …….

    No preserves???

    I believe in Plum jam and Pear Preserves.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “Mo David and the COGs” — sounds like a Sixties band name.

    Or perhaps a good name for a band comprised of accountants.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Harvest in the country?

    Nancy2 wrote:

    My grandma used to set her big cast iron kettles up in the yard, build fires beneath them, then tend the fires and simmer jars of food all day, just to make the food safe to eat in later. So, I’m a bit addicted to my pressure cookers and my water bath canners!

    You are worth your weight in gold Nancy2. These skills need to be passed on and preserved (pun intended) for the future.


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    Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    No Greater Joy Ministries — aka Michael and Debbie Pearl. The masters of “I Wash My Hands of Any Negative Results”.

    What is the count now of dead and injured ‘negarive results’???? Dear God, these people are very, very sick. As are the ones who fall under their satanic spell. The blood and bruises of the dead and injured children and babies cry out to us to expose these fiends.


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    NJ wrote:
    Todd, why did he say that about the Rector? Was it something personal, or was it because no Anglican can be a Christian?
    I believe the latter. To my knowledge, he had never spoken with the Rector. (Who was a very nice Christian man. Truly humble and compassionate.)

    I am not surprised, Todd. I’ve been in evangelical churches where the members think that Lutherans aren’t *saved* either. It is a very myopic view originating from a place of self-righteousness combined with ignorance.


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    By the way, Velour, reading the By Laws from your former church alone (not even getting through the entire document) reminds me of being put in a stranglehold. Rigid power structure is what comes to mind. And what is it with not wanting people to attend often without committing to signing the membership covenant/contract? Something to the effect of….maybe you should just find another church to attend if all you want to do is come to our services. Very strange.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Dave A A wrote:
    “I was raised or became a Christian as a kid, but now, praise God, I’ve discovered the Doctrines of Grace!”
    You are making me have a flashback…of an era that lasted decades and continues even now in a sense.

    I’m quite familiar with this mindset in that I participate on a Calvinist Facebook site. From time to time, a thread is started asking folks how they became Calvinists. Almost without exception, they were Christians from another background and then….voila!…discovered the Doctrines of Grace. And almost always it seems, by merely reading Scripture on their own. Yeah, riiiight. I believe that one. The only exception might be those who were raised in Presbyterian churches. I’d say that has a lot to do with their view on covenant theology. But as far as the low church, credo baptist Calvinist churches (like Capitol Hill Baptist) – the majority of their members come from other non-Calvinist backgrounds.


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    Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    No Greater Joy Ministries — aka Michael and Debbie Pearl. The masters of “I Wash My Hands of Any Negative Results”.

    “Her name was Lydia. She was seven years old. She’s dead because her adoptive parents took Michael and Debi Pearl’s No Greater Joy Ministries teachings too far Lydia was disciplined to death. She had deep bruising and scars from beatings on her back, buttocks and legs, injuries which cause organ failure. That is no surprise to anyone who has read and followed Michael and Debi Pearl. Lydia was ‘trained’ for hours for mispronouncing a word during a home-school reading lesson.
    “Her 11 year old sister Zariah was in intensive care week and was released into foster last week .”

    http://www.benedictionblogson.com/2010/02/22/michael-and-debi-pearls-teaching-linked-to-another-child-abuse-death/


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    mot wrote:

    Friend wrote:
    Sigh. Everyone in Christendom has encountered some version of “you’re going to hell.” It’s no longer an original thing to say.
    I have often wondered if the hell they think I am going to is actually the heaven promised to me because of my belief in Christ. Would that not be ironic?

    Mot, interesting thought you’ve got there. I am reminded when speaking of this subject of hell, that the hell which Calvinists speak of is a place where all the Reprobates (non-elect) go. It is a place God predetermined that they will go to BEFORE THEY WERE EVER BORN. So the Reprobates were doomed before they even entered the womb. They never had a chance to enter Heaven from the get go. And such a view teaches that this glorifies God.


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    Lea wrote:

    No preserves???

    I believe in Plum jam and Pear Preserves.

    I’m a great fan of fig preserves (my mother’s specialty) and watermelon rind pickles (you cut off the green outside peeling before pickling the rinds)

    SO GOOD!!!! Treasures from another generation. You can’t buy food this good.

    Nancy Two – TEACH what you know to young people!!!! Some day we all may need to go back to basics, and these skills are priceless.


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    Darlene wrote:

    By the way, Velour, reading the By Laws from your former church alone (not even getting through the entire document) reminds me of being put in a stranglehold. Rigid power structure is what comes to mind. And what is it with not wanting people to attend often without committing to signing the membership covenant/contract? Something to the effect of….maybe you should just find another church to attend if all you want to do is come to our services. Very strange.

    Thank you for noticing, Darlene! Yes, it’s a stranglehold that the Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley pastors/elders expect to exert over adults’ lives. It is totally un-Biblical as well and very unhealthy. Toxic. Damaging. Destructive. It has done so much harm in the lives of people who have been at that church.

    I was just writing a new article for my blog about this very issue. My cheeks would turn scarlet with embarrassment and mortification as the arrogant, rude pastors/elders would announce from the pulpit that people couldn’t attend church if they didn’t sign a Membership Covenant. It was disgraceful to tell Christians that they weren’t welcome.

    Newcomers would get up and flee mid-service, not even wait for the sermon to be over.
    Good for them! I wish I had joined them.

    A long-time Christian did not believe in Membership Covenants and he would not sign it.
    They banned him from coming to church.

    As Wade Burleson (pastor) who does E-Church here on TWW on Sundays says that he will NEVER sign a Membership Covenant, tithing card, or anything like it. Jesus said let your ‘yes’ mean ‘yes’ and your ‘no’ mean ‘no’ and anything else is from the Devil. MC’s are from the Devil.

    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/05/five-reasons-to-say-no-to-church.html

    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2012/01/our-problem-is-authoritarianism-and-not.html

    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2013/11/swindoll-southern-baptists-and.html

    An MC is supposed to replace the work the Holy Spirit does in our lives.

    Of course the GBFSV pastors/elders want people to sign Membership Covenants as it’s a tool of their authoritarian control. Just look at the Statement of Faith, without reading the Bylaws. They actually claim that they are “mandated” by God to have this control over members’ lives. Oh. No. They. Aren’t.

    They have put themselves in the place of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in members’ lives. It was never meant to be this way by the Lord, despite the many claims of the GBFSV pastors/elders that this is Jesus’ church and they are doing His ‘will’. What a farce. Very manipulative.

    According to the pastors/elders we were to ‘obey’ them and ‘to submit’ to their authority in ‘everything’.

    Former church members were recently talking to me about how the senior pastor (Cliff) is constantly talking about his ‘authority’ over other people — and it’s not Biblical.

    Thanks to all of you dear people who have resuscitated me along with the real Jesus post GBFSV excommunication/shunning.


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    Christiane wrote:

    Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
    No Greater Joy Ministries — aka Michael and Debbie Pearl. The masters of “I Wash My Hands of Any Negative Results”.
    “Her name was Lydia. She was seven years old. She’s dead because her adoptive parents took Michael and Debi Pearl’s No Greater Joy Ministries teachings too far Lydia was disciplined to death. She had deep bruising and scars from beatings on her back, buttocks and legs, injuries which cause organ failure. That is no surprise to anyone who has read and followed Michael and Debi Pearl. Lydia was ‘trained’ for hours for mispronouncing a word during a home-school reading lesson.
    “Her 11 year old sister Zariah was in intensive care week and was released into foster last week .”
    http://www.benedictionblogson.com/2010/02/22/michael-and-debi-pearls-teaching-linked-to-another-child-abuse-death/

    For the love of God and all that is Holy, I would have taken those sweet children and raised them.


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    @ Darlene:

    My longer response for you is waiting to ‘clear customs’. (Ken F’s saying.)


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    You are worth your weight in gold Nancy2. These skills need to be passed on and preserved (pun intended) for the future.

    I taught my daughter. We, as well as my parents grow enough garden stuff to share with her family. She freezes corn, makes pickles and pickled beets, cans tomatoes, jam, jelly, relish ………..
    She hated canning and gardening when she was a kid, but she loves it now – better food, saves money.
    My citified sil says that if ther is ever a major disaster, he is coming out to the farm!
    Lea wrote:

    I believe in Plum jam and Pear Preserves.

    I made plum jelly, no jam. The steamer/cooker I have just makes it too easy to steam the juice out of the fruit. Much better than crushing and straining! Pear preserves? Depends on how much energy I have left before the pears are gone.
    Been working for the last several days with/on my daughter’s horse and my niece’s pony – historically wet summer caused them to become foundered. In between working with the animals, I made the jam and honey. We had a ferrier come out today, so I hope I’m done with that for a while. But, I’m going to need a few days to recover!!!! I am exhausted (trembling), stiff, scraped, and bruised.


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    Christiane wrote:

    Nancy Two – TEACH what you know to young people!!!! Some day we all may need to go back to basics, and these skills are priceless.

    It’s just how I was raised. I share the knowledge with anyone who will listen – not too many do these days.


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    Christiane wrote:

    I’m a great fan of fig preserves

    Fig preserves too! Have made them many times.

    Nancy2 wrote:

    I made plum jelly, no jam.

    I always make jam over jelly because it’s easier and I like the homeyness 🙂 My grandmother made pear preserves and I’ve never made them because I don’t think the grocery store sells the right kind of pears and I can’t remember what kind I’m supposed to use! I think they were brown something.

    I don’t actually make jam or jelly or preserves often because I am single and rarely eat either except the occasional pb&j.


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    Velour wrote:

    For the love of God and all that is Holy, I would have taken those sweet children and raised them.

    Oh my dear, so many people would have reached out to care from them …. but anything the TWW blog queens and associates can do to EXPOSE the Pearls will help victims …. the youngest victims of the Pearls are only six months old ….. that is the ‘recommended’ age to begin hitting a baby to break its spirit. My brother who is a pediatrician says that this practice can easily be lethal and he has reported some cases of abuse where the parents were ‘disciplining’ an infant. So sad. It is hard to imagine this. TWW has a good mission to bring attention to the extreme abuses that hide in ‘sheep’s clothing’ as ‘christian’ practice. It’s that ‘God of Wrath’ hellish doctrinal teaching that ignores the character of Our God as revealed by Jesus Christ.


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    @ Christiane:

    Yes, our blog Queens here at TWW are lovely, and we’re a good bunch too.

    Thank you, as always, for the lovely comment. I am always healed when you write about God as revealed through Jesus Christ. So true, friend. So true.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    tell me more about your vision for this colony.

    Failed utopias are a dime-o’-dozen. They’re like barnacles on the pilings of history. They fail for two salient reasons:
    1) They seek to withdraw from the world instead utilizing by pragmatic compromise the best of what the world has to offer.
    2) Same with human nature and self interest.
    What I envision is not utopian.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Failed utopias are a dime-o’-dozen.

    You read my mind.


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    Max wrote:

    fiveonly wrote:

    I attended one of the biggest and one of the best know mega-churches that falls under this brand and they and their guest speakers consistently lifted up the name of Jesus and consistently used spoke of leading others to Christ.

    You describe a very atypical New Calvinist church. The combined experiences of the host of TWW commenters would not agree that folks are led to the Cross of Christ by whosoever-will-may-come preaching in reformed churches. There are no altar calls, no lifting of the Cross of Jesus for ALL people, no invitation to accept Christ, no sinner’s prayer. On the other hand, there is a lot of energy being spent in New Calvinist works to lead followers to the tenets of Calvinism – Doctrines of Grace. It’s more about joining the crew as one of the elect, rather than believing in faith to accept the Gospel message and receive Christ. Evangelism in New Calvinism is more about harvesting the elect, rather than harvesting lost souls – whosoever will may come.

    While it is not my intent to defend these folks, that was simply not my experience. As far as alter calls go, I’m not a fan of those either, but there were many “invitations” (virtually every service I attended) where people were invited to come down and talk & pray with folks if they had any questions about salvation or any thing else that they wanted to discuss, after the service. It was much less manipulative than the typical alter call that I grew up with where they sang 499 verses of “Just As I Am” and the pastor would continue to guilt people into walking down the aisle and attempt to scare them that they might die that very night and go to hell if they didn’t.


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    Velour wrote:

    Ken F wrote:
    Max wrote:
    They probably get blocked.
    The comments for most articles are positive. But the ones on the article are very critical. To their credit, 9Marks has not removed any of the negative comments.
    Although, I was blocked the other day from following Mark Dever’s tweets, as were scores of others here. Todd Wilhelm was already blocked from following Dever.
    I don’t recall ever communicating with Dever on Twitter.
    A strange bunch. Immature. Unwilling, over all, to engage in ideas. Respect is earned. And they don’t do much to earn it.

    So, let’s see if this goes through. For Velour & others if you’re interested in Dever’s Twitter Feed.
    https://twitter.com/MarkDever?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor


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    Velour: I read all of those points under the BITE Model and my former Christian cult practiced 99% of those manipulation tactics. It takes time to free your mind from such spiritual abuse, and during that process sometimes a person can feel as though they are going a bit crazy. People I met after leaving that Christian cult were surprised I had retained my sanity. Come to think of it, so am I.


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    Darlene wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Ken F wrote:
    Max wrote:
    They probably get blocked.
    The comments for most articles are positive. But the ones on the article are very critical. To their credit, 9Marks has not removed any of the negative comments.
    Although, I was blocked the other day from following Mark Dever’s tweets, as were scores of others here. Todd Wilhelm was already blocked from following Dever.
    I don’t recall ever communicating with Dever on Twitter.
    A strange bunch. Immature. Unwilling, over all, to engage in ideas. Respect is earned. And they don’t do much to earn it.
    So, let’s see if this goes through. For Velour & others if you’re interested in Dever’s Twitter Feed.
    https://twitter.com/MarkDever?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

    Oh, I can’t see his Twitter feed as Mark Dever has me blocked.


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    Uncle Dad, I read the article about the death of your niece. I am so sorry for your loss. May her memory be everlasting.


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    The Nine Marks of an Unhealthy Church.


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    Darlene wrote:

    if you’re interested in Dever’s Twitter Feed

    Why is he yammering on about Arnold competing in Mr. Universe? Weird.


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    Darlene wrote:

    It takes time to free your mind from such spiritual abuse, and during that process sometimes a person can feel as though they are going a bit crazy. People I met after leaving that Christian cult were surprised I had retained my sanity. Come to think of it, so am I.

    How much duct tape did it take to put your head back together?


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    Lea wrote:

    Darlene wrote:
    if you’re interested in Dever’s Twitter Feed
    Why is he yammering on about Arnold competing in Mr. Universe? Weird.

    MUSCLE ENVY.


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    Ooops!!! 😉

    Looks like the 9Markists blog removed their comments section. 🙁

    As of today, Friday, ALL Comments on ALL Articles are – GONE. 12:50 PM EST.
    ———-

    Here is the comment I was trying to post when all went blank…
    ———-

    Jonathan

    I have an idea…

    If 9Marks really wants elder/overseers, churches, who follow their teaching…
    To achieve the ideal of -“NOT being a 9Marxist.”
    “NOT being a church leader who abuses authority.”

    Maybe you need to know…
    If the 79 churches listed on your “Church Search” page…
    Are actually – NOT being a 9Marxist.”
    “NOT being a church leader who abuses authority.”

    I have an idea… “Here I am, send me.” To be a “Mystery Shopper.”

    I’ll visit, spend some time with the elders…
    Go through their “Chuch Membership” class…
    Inteview ex-members to determine, if why they left…
    Was because of a “church leader who abuses authority.”
    Was because elders do NOT meet the Qualifications in 1 Tim 3 and Titus.

    I’ll check out their “Chuch Membership” covenant they ask folks to sign…
    And make sure it is fair to all parties concerned…
    Both pastors in pulpits and people in pews…

    And “Generally” make sure they are, “NOT being a 9Marxist.”

    If they are “being a 9Marxist” I’ll make a report back to you, 9 Marks.
    And you can deal with them based on Your Authority.

    We can arrange for, negotiate, a proper ‘Compensation Package”

    After I visit Capitol Hill Baptist Church…
    And give you a FREE report about your elders…
    And make sure CHBC is “NOT being a 9Marxist.”
    And the elders are, “NOT being a church leader who abuses authority.”


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    Here is the comment to “Don’t be a 9Marxist”
    Just before the Blog comments went blank.
    ———-

    Jonathan

    You end your introduction, just before the 15 marks, with…

    “Mark Dever helped me brainstorm fifteen marks
    for NOT being a 9Marxist, that is,
    NOT being a **church leader** who abuses **authority.**”

    Then in Mark #1, You begin with…
    “We should be very reluctant to require anything
    NOT expressly set down in Scripture.”

    Don’t know if you ever checked, BUT, **church leader** is a term…
    “NOT expressly set down in Scripture.” (It’s NOT in the Bible.)

    Did someone add **church leader** to the Scriptures??? Why?
    To gain “leverage?” advantage? **authority?** *over* some of WE, His Sheep?
    Did any of His Disciples call them self **church leader?** Or leader?

    How can WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, His Body, be like those in Berea???
    Who, “searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
    When **church leader* is NOT in the Scriptures?

    How can WE, His Servants, His Ekkleia, His Church, know…
    Who is a “Biblical” **church leader?** Doing it well?
    When calling yourself **church leader** is NOT “Biblical?”

    Seems, just calling one self a **church leader.** To gain an advantage.
    Is already an abuse of **authority.**”

    Even when this “fictional” **authority** of a **church leader**
    Is, “NOT expressly set down in Scripture.”
    ———-

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **THEIR shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}


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    Max wrote:

    fiveonly wrote:

    spoke of leading others to Christ

    A young reformer in my area “evangelizes” in the following manner. He NEVER invites folks to accept Christ in a sermon; he NEVER leads anyone to Jesus as part of his “gospel” delivery; he NEVER mentions the Cross of Christ. However, he will occasionally post on Facebook “Baptizing next Sunday! Sign up on Facebook!” And they come, but where is the “leading to Christ” in that approach?

    So, “A young reformer” is your evidence that this is how they all operate? In effect you’re saying that your single, anecdotal evidence trumps my single anecdotal evidence because you say it does. Secondly, since you mention Furtick in a follow up to the quote above, Furtick is about the farthest thing from reformed theology there is, in fact, he is solidly in your theological camp, so I’m not sure you would want to use him as any kind of proof point. Thirdly, I’ll raise your anecdotal evidence with a second anecdotal evidence of my own: Dr. Alan Streett was the first man to challenge me in my thinking about soteriology during my seminary studies, for Dr. Streett was about the only solid 5 pointer at that school. Of course, his doctoral thesis later became his book titled “The Effective Invitation” (here on amazon: http://amzn.to/2cNajEO ) and I used to go with Dr. Streett every Friday afternoon and preach the gospel on the street corners of Dallas, TX, where Dr. Streett and the rest of us who would proclaim the Gospel, boldly invited whosoever will to trust Jesus Christ as their savior. He was far and away, the most zealous evangelist for lost souls that I have ever met and he put to shame his Armenian colleagues.

    My two anecdotal examples beat your one, so I win. 😉


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    fiveonly wrote:

    Max wrote:

    fiveonly wrote:

    Armenian colleagues.

    spellcheck got me on that, should be Arminian


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    A. Amos Love wrote:

    Looks like the 9Markists blog removed their comments section.

    As of today, Friday, ALL Comments on ALL Articles are – GONE. 12:50 PM EST.

    I sent their webmaster an email. There is a banner on the side showing the DA Horton article has 35 comments. It could be a glitch.


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    Ken F wrote:

    A. Amos Love wrote:
    Looks like the 9Markists blog removed their comments section.
    As of today, Friday, ALL Comments on ALL Articles are – GONE. 12:50 PM EST.
    I sent their webmaster an email. There is a banner on the side showing the DA Horton article has 35 comments. It could be a glitch.

    Thanks Ken. F. for contacting the 9 Marks webmaster and for keeping us apprised.

    I saved some of 9 Marks webpages overs on The Way Back Machine website.
    (I suggest others help out on this task if they think that information may be scrubbed from the internet.)

    http://archive.org/web/ Save the web page URL on the right side of the screen in the
    box.

    Did anyone get screen shots before comments were taken down? (Ken F., Mirele, Todd,
    Amos Love?)

    Thank you.


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    A. Amos Love wrote:

    I’ll check out their “Chuch Membership” covenant they ask folks to sign…
    And make sure it is fair to all parties concerned…
    Both pastors in pulpits and people in pews…

    Amos,

    If you have time could you please review my ex-church, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley’s, Statement of Faith, Bylaws, Membership Covenant, and tell me your thoughts.
    http://www.gbfsv.org/

    Thank you.


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    fiveonly wrote:

    So, “A young reformer” is your evidence that this is how they all operate? In effect you’re saying that your single, anecdotal evidence trumps my single anecdotal evidence because you say it does.

    fiveonly, I would never convince you of what I’m hearing & seeing in the New Calvinist movement in my area. I’ve been monitoring sermon podcasts of local YRR churches (more than a single anecdote); I hear no clear Gospel presentations coming from any of them. I hear young pastors primarily parroting New Calvinist celebrities, who get more air time than Jesus. They hardly ever mention the Holy Spirit. Perhaps they are just too young and haven’t got their ministry act together yet, even though most of them went to seminary. I find their “culturally relevant” messages Biblically unbalanced, but I’m an old fuddy-duddy whosoever-will sort of guy and don’t like their reformed delivery. I just present things on TWW as I hear and see them here; I hope it’s better where you live.

    I know Dr. Streett; he’s a good man. I recently read his book “Heaven on Earth”; he provides a great perspective on the gospel of the Kingdom of God.


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    fiveonly wrote:

    since you mention Furtick in a follow up to the quote above

    I don’t remember saying anything about Furtick in this comment thread. Where did I post that?


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    Max wrote:

    fiveonly wrote:
    since you mention Furtick in a follow up to the quote above
    I don’t remember saying anything about Furtick in this comment thread. Where did I post that?

    I think Headless Unicorn Guy and Christiane were discussing Furtick.


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    A. Amos Love wrote:

    Looks like the 9Markists blog removed their comments section. As of today, Friday, ALL Comments on ALL Articles are – GONE.

    I posted a few comments on D.A. Horton’s piece re: his slam of abusive prosperity gospel preachers, without noting reports of leadership abuses coming from his own tribe, New Calvinism. I visited the site again today to see how the comment thread was going, but also noted that ALL comments are missing. Perhaps they are experiencing a technical difficulty on the blog … or purging history.


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    A. Amos Love wrote:

    Looks like the 9Markists blog removed their comments section.

    Mr. Love, if you posted your comments via Disqus, you can access the whole discussion of a particular post by logging into Disqus, click on “Most Recent”, and then click on “View Discussion”. That will show the whole comment thread, even if the 9Marks site does not. I see that your last post was about 6 hours ago.


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    Velour wrote:

    Max wrote:

    fiveonly wrote:
    since you mention Furtick in a follow up to the quote above
    I don’t remember saying anything about Furtick in this comment thread. Where did I post that?

    I think Headless Unicorn Guy and Christiane were discussing Furtick.

    Yes, VELOUR and MAX

    here is the reference:
    “Christiane UNITED STATES on Tue Sep 20, 2016 at 04:05 PM said:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Remember Furtick? How do you know “those who come” are not his shills?

    Isn’t Furtick a cult leader? He’s not an evangelical, is he?”


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    Max wrote:

    A. Amos Love wrote:
    Looks like the 9Markists blog removed their comments section.
    Mr. Love, if you posted your comments via Disqus, you can access the whole discussion of a particular post by logging into Disqus, click on “Most Recent”, and then click on “View Discussion”. That will show the whole comment thread, even if the 9Marks site does not. I see that your last post was about 6 hours ago.

    Please take screen shots and email to Deb and Dee. Oh and email to Todd Wilhelm too at Thou Art the Man.

    And me: gbfsvsurvivors@gmail.com


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    @ Velour:
    The screen shot was going to get a little awkward, so I copied the comments into a word document and will be emailing to you shortly. Please feel free to forward to Deb, Dee and Todd from your end.


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    Max wrote:

    @ Velour:
    The screen shot was going to get a little awkward, so I copied the comments into a word document and will be emailing to you shortly. Please feel free to forward to Deb, Dee and Todd from your end.

    Thank you so much Max. I got it. I emailed it to Todd. His partner Jana was also able to get the 9 Marxist comments that have disappeared. Woo hoo. Go Jana!


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    Todd Wilhelm’s partner Jana was able to successfully retrieve a link for the 9 Marx article written by Jonathan Leeman in which some 30+ comments no longer appear. We don’t know if they are scrubbing the internet or if there is a computer glitch (which Ken F. wrote the 9 Marks webmaster and asked if there was a problem).

    I have also copied the comments over to the Deleted Comments thread to the right side of the screen here, near the top.

    https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wPn2s9xNhI8J:https://9marks.org/article/dont-be-a-9marxist/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


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    @ Velour:

    Note to Wartburgers: Even though it says there are 0 comments, click on it and it will open up the comments.


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    Christiane wrote:

    Isn’t Furtick a cult leader? He’s not an evangelical, is he?”

    These days, is there a difference?


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    Max wrote:

    I posted a few comments on D.A. Horton’s piece re: his slam of abusive prosperity gospel preachers, without noting reports of leadership abuses coming from his own tribe, New Calvinism.

    The Party Can Do No Wrong, Comrade.

    I visited the site again today to see how the comment thread was going, but also noted that ALL comments are missing. Perhaps they are experiencing a technical difficulty on the blog … or purging history.

    Oceania has Always Been At Peace With Eurasia, Comrade.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Yes, he is an evangelical. No, he is not leading a cult. And if you stand back and take a good look at Charlotte, and how many NC problems have risen and are rising from Charlotte, Furtick is nowhere near a significant problem compared with the rest of what is going on. I don’t often agree with Franklin Graham, but I think I read that he said that only God can save Charlotte at this point; and he was not talking about Furtick.


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    Here is Todd Wilhelm’s latest article about Jonathan D. Leeman and the 9 Marx comments being deleted. The entire column may have been removed too by now.

    http://thouarttheman.org/2016/09/24/jonathan-leeman-parsing-words-deleting-comments/#comment-2538

    The column was about my critical Amazon review of Mark Dever’s 9 Marks book and my abusive 9 Marks church, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (which I found on the 9 Marks locator for a church when I was looking for one). I didn’t know anything about the heavy-Shepherding Movement from the 1970’s and all its abuses, that Mark Dever simply copied it.
    Most of the Florida founders repented for the abuses of Shepherding. As the problems with 9 Marks gets worse, the ugly fruit, the damaged lives, faiths, and relationships, will Mark Dever and Jonathan D. Leeman ever repent too?

    https://gbfsvchurchabuse.org/


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    My comment to Roger Olson [theologian on his blog article on 9/22/16]: “Thank you for the education about classical Calvinism which I did not know. When I saw the t-shirt I roared with laughter and promptly ordered one. I had a “tour-of-duty” of a NeoCalvinist church (eight years), complete with excommunication and shunnings for any reason, the most threatening was being a Berean and using critical thinking skills. (A woman in finance, a doctor, and then me.) The pastors/elders told church members that dissenters weren’t “one of us” and were “destined for Hell” and were to be excommunicated and shunned (“keyed out”). NeoCalvinist churches seem very authoritarian, brutal, and frankly vicious. I believe they are practicing the 1970’s heavy-Shepherding Movement’s tactics, whose founders repented. I will wear my t-shirt with pride, opposing un-Christian authoritarianism.”

    Roger Olson’s [theologian/professor/author] response to me: “Fortunately, not all Calvinist churches are like that. That sounds almost like a cult. My Calvinist friends would not condone such behavior (even if they would probably restrict leadership to Calvinists).”

    https://gbfsvchurchabuse.org/2016/09/23/calvinism-at-grace-bible-fellowship-of-silicon-valley-somelivesmatter/


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    @ Velour:
    Roger Olson supports what I have experienced. New Calvinism and Classical Calvinism are different beasts. While I don’t agree with the tenets of reformed theology, I have found “Old” Calvinists to be civil in their discourse with others, unlike their neo-brethren. Classical Calvinists (e.g., Presbyterians) have never been viewed as a cult, while that word is increasingly tossed around to characterize the aberrant belief and practice in some New Calvinist ministries.


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    Velour wrote:

    Here is Todd Wilhelm’s latest article about Jonathan D. Leeman and the 9 Marx comments being deleted. The entire column may have been removed too by now.

    Did anyone capture the 35 comments from the DA Horton article? Those comments were also very good.


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    Ken F wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Here is Todd Wilhelm’s latest article about Jonathan D. Leeman and the 9 Marx comments being deleted. The entire column may have been removed too by now.
    Did anyone capture the 35 comments from the DA Horton article? Those comments were also very good.

    Max captured them.


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    @ Ken F:

    I will cut and paste them to the Deleted Comments section a little later.


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    @ Velour:
    Good. 9marks admitted defeat in the realm of ideas. The cannot compete, so they took their ball and went home. Too bad.


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    Velour wrote:

    will Mark Dever and Jonathan D. Leeman ever repent too?

    Not until they can find another way to put food on the table. They have painted themselves into a corner. To change ways now would mean loss of income and loss of old friends. They are stuck in the ideology they created. I am so grateful that my income has nothing to do with my theology because it gives me freedom to investigate and change. The YRRs are stuck. They cannot repent because they are in it too deep financially.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Christiane wrote:

    Isn’t Furtick a cult leader? He’s not an evangelical, is he?”

    These days, is there a difference?

    There may be some who call themselves ‘evangelicals’ but honestly, the neo-Cal brand seems to me to be something beyond anything resembling traditional Christianity, even to the point of some of the mainline Calvinists challenging the neo-Cal ESS heresy.

    What do you call an entity that uses the 9 Marks Program to foster, permit, and then hide predators in its midst???? And THEN attacks the abused victims????
    I can’t call it ‘evangelical’, no. Or Christian. Or humane or law-abiding.

    ‘Evangelical’ for me will always be a term that is best represented by those who served Our Lord selflessly in the mission fields. I wouldn’t include the miserable ‘fundamentalist-evangelical’ men who took over the SBC and turned on its women in the same category as ‘evangelical’, no. They are a breed apart, with a contempt in them and a pride that belittles while it preens itself in well-appointed mansions and in stained glass windows.

    I would not include among ‘evangelical’ all those who took part in bringing ANY God-called missionaries home from the field, while diverting monies to their own agendas.

    I would call ‘evangelical’ all those Christian people who stand up for victims, and speak out in spite of having to endure persecution themselves. They live their lives according the a higher wisdom, the wisdom of the Kingdom of God, a mystery that eludes the neo-Cal world of ‘contracts’ and ‘male-headship’ and ‘discipline’ involving shaming, and looking away when predators roam in their midst, and hounding and abusing their victims without mercy.

    The evils of THIS world controlling ways are the weapons of the Nine Marks folks, not the fruit of the Holy Spirit. They are NOT ‘evangelical’, no.


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    @ Christiane:

    Preach it, Christiane!

    And a hearty Amen to you.


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    @ Velour:
    Occasionally, a good rant is therapeutic. 🙂
    (I still see Furtick as a cult person, with himself as the ‘visionary’ and focusing on himself as the ‘Great Leader’ to be followed loyally. He even has a coloring book page for children celebrating himself, which is extremely creepy. Once you see stuff like that going on openly, the word ‘cult’ comes very quickly to mind, yes.)


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    @ Christiane:

    I’m all for a cathartic rant.

    Coloring books. We’ll have to invent some for Camp Backbone’s online store. Ours will involve target practice of Patriarchy books being blown to smithereens.

    Then we’ll have the paper Action Figures of our various Subversive types, including Dee with various pairs of Adorable Shoes and Pug dogs, Deb on the Farm with her dogs, and of course Nancy2 in Kentucky (our fearless leader at Camp Backbone). She has green eyes that shoot like lasers, or so I’ve heard.


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    A toast to all us “too-tainted-to-interface-with” crowd.

    I’ve since talked with my fleeing former friends. They’ve told me to drop by if I’m ever in their neighborhood.

    I was surprised they had even talked to me at all; figured they hadn’t gotten the memo yet. They were on their way to a church get together. They got the memo alright.

    Another time, at a wedding reception, I found myself face-to-face with one of the pastors. As I started to say something to him, he a few with him, turned their backs to me and just stood their with their backs to me. I know . . . huh. How silly can we get?

    I walked away and talked to other guests. I was actually glad I was the shunnee and not the shunner.

    Another time, happening to pass by a former-church group, I outright asked them about one of the church memos I’d heard about. A truly ugly, without-any-evidence insinuation. They laughed and said, “Oh yeah. None of us believed that one.”

    I was gut-punched bad by that one. Like, who could tell such a hideous lie about me?
    Dave (Eagle) and others — I can totally relate to the effects of an unjust accusation.


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    I’m trying to reply to Janna on Todd W’s site, but my cell phone seems to be getting blocked as spam. There are only a few interesting comment threads on 9Marks. Those few threads are available and could be the topic of a post here.

    One of Jonathan’s points is the correction from the congregation if the elders make a bad decision. I don’t think that happens in real life, and Jonathan proved it by deleting thoughtful comments by the congregation of internet commentators. Choosing to shut down comments is proof that 9Marks does not have ideas that can survive scrutiny. And it is proof that they are not opem to correction.


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    @ Ken F:

    Hi Ken F.,

    Please let Todd Wilhelm know via email about the problems you are having posting comments. I had problems yesterday and Todd and Janna had me clear my history. It then posted my comment.
    tlwdxb@protonmail.com – Todd’s email/secure


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    Ken F wrote:

    There are only a few interesting comment threads on 9Marks. Those few threads are available and could be the topic of a post here.

    I put those comments here on the Deleted Comments thread.


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    Ken F wrote:

    One of Jonathan’s points is the correction from the congregation if the elders make a bad decision. I don’t think that happens in real life, and Jonathan proved it by deleting thoughtful comments by the congregation of internet commentators.

    I think that is a talking point, just like “equal in dignity, value, and worth but different in role” or “ESS/EFS/ERAS has always been the orthodox view of the church” or “female submission is totally voluntary but it is a sin if she refuses to intelligently and joyfully submit” or “you can’t love Jesus of you don’t love his [institutional] church.”


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    Velour wrote:

    I put those comments here on the Deleted Comments thread

    I cannot find the deleted comments from my cell phone. I’ll look when i get back to a computer. Thanks for collecting those comments.


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    Ken F wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    I put those comments here on the Deleted Comments thread
    I cannot find the deleted comments from my cell phone. I’ll look when i get back to a computer. Thanks for collecting those comments.

    Welcome.


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    @ Christiane:
    Amen! And I’ve been a member of SBC affiliated churches since 1978!


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    Christiane wrote:

    There may be some who call themselves ‘evangelicals’ but honestly, the neo-Cal brand seems to me to be something beyond anything resembling traditional Christianity

    According to an article in Christianity Today, you are an “Evangelical” if:

    (1) The Bible is the highest authority for what I believe.

    (2) It is very important for me personally to encourage non-Christians to trust Jesus Christ as their Savior.

    (3) Jesus Christ’s death on the cross is the only sacrifice that could remove the penalty of my sin.

    (4) Only those who trust in Jesus Christ alone as their Savior receive God’s free gift of eternal salvation.

    The New Calvinists talk very little about Jesus and the Cross. They are not actively encouraging non-Christians to trust Jesus Christ as their Savior. They cannot be considered “evangelicals” by the above description.

    The CT article goes on to say “Evangelicals are ‘Good News’ people.” The chosen elect message of God predestining some to be saved and most to be damned before they ever draw breath is not good news. The new reformers are not going forth to bring “good tidings of great joy, which shall be to ALL people.” They are not Good News people.

    The CT article can be found at: http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2015/november/what-is-evangelical-new-definition-nae-lifeway-research.html


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    Max wrote:

    The CT article goes on to say “Evangelicals are ‘Good News’ people.” The chosen elect message of God predestining some to be saved and most to be damned before they ever draw breath is not good news. The new reformers are not going forth to bring “good tidings of great joy, which shall be to ALL people.” They are not Good News people.

    The CT article can be found at: http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2015/november/what-is-evangelical-new-definition-nae-lifeway-research.html

    I would not want the neo-Cal folk to define ‘evangelical’ …. they shamed themselves so badly with the ways they have treated people (not just women and children) and YES, I heartily agree that they do NOT represent the ‘Good News’ people. How could they? They don’t bring joy or patience, or the humility of Christ into their world ….. they depend on severe control mechanisms: legal membership ‘contracts’, spying on one another and reporting ‘infractions’ of ‘rules to higher-ups, and the very modeling of lack of basic respect for the personhood of women in their cults. No. They CANNOT be allowed to define ‘evangelical’. They mustn’t be allowed to do that. Not THOSE people. Their abused victims witness to us that the ways of the neo-Cal folk are NOT His Ways.


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    @ Christiane:

    Spot on comment you wrote to Max.


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    Ken F wrote:

    I’m trying to reply to Janna on Todd W’s site, but my cell phone seems to be getting blocked as spam. There are only a few interesting comment threads on 9Marks. Those few threads are available and could be the topic of a post here.
    One of Jonathan’s points is the correction from the congregation if the elders make a bad decision. I don’t think that happens in real life, and Jonathan proved it by deleting thoughtful comments by the congregation of internet commentators. Choosing to shut down comments is proof that 9Marks does not have ideas that can survive scrutiny. And it is proof that they are not opem to correction.

    Yes, I noticed that as well. When I went to see if anyone else commented on the 9Marxist article, ALL of the comments were erased and there was no opportunity to make comments on the article any longer. Sad. Odd how Leeman says he isn’t used to hearing comments like Grace’s (Velour) and instead of interacting with the folks commenting on his article, he erases their comments and shuts down any opportunity for people to comment further.


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    I was not the least bit surprised by what 9 Marks did in shutting down comments and articles. Respect is earned. They do absolutely nothing to earn respect.

    We are adults and they can’t have honest conversations about these serious topics. They turn tail and run. Despicable.


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    Velour wrote:

    We are adults and they can’t have honest conversations about these serious topics. They turn tail and run. Despicable.

    Evidence of “little man syndrome”!


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    We are adults and they can’t have honest conversations about these serious topics. They turn tail and run. Despicable.
    Evidence of “little man syndrome”!

    Sure enough.

    The 9 Marxist boys aren’t like Wartburg campers at Camp Backbone with our fearless green-eyed leader (Nancy 2)!


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    If anyone should go over to 9Marks again to comment on any articles, please make sure to take a screen shot.

    Also you can save the web page at the Wayback Machine website for future use, since 9 Marks scrubs the internet.

    And you can use Disqus to retrieve your own comments and everyone else’s (I think that’s how it works).


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    Velour wrote:

    If anyone should go over to 9Marks again to comment on any articles, please make sure to take a screen shot.

    Comments section is still shut down.


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    Ken F wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    If anyone should go over to 9Marks again to comment on any articles, please make sure to take a screen shot.
    Comments section is still shut down.

    Thanks for the report.