“She approached them all without a trace of sentimentality or condescension. The older Docklanders were accustomed to meeting middle-class do-gooders, who deigned to act graciously to inferiors. The Cockneys despised these people, used them for what they could get, and made fun of them behind their backs, but Sister Evangelina had no patronising airs and graces.” ― Jennifer Worth link
I recently read When Grace Hurts the Church by Aaron Menikoff which was posted at The Gospel Coalition website. Aaron is the pastor of Mt Vernon Baptist Church in Atlanta. At first blush, the post appeared to stress how Calvinists and Non-Calvinists can get along. He even appeared to be implying that his church is quite diverse in their range of thinking. In fact, I was rather excited by the idea of a Calvinist, who considers himself (as he states in the article) young, restless and reformed, demonstrating how we can all get along.
I’ve witnessed conflict when those who heartily embrace divine sovereignty encounter those who wrestle with it.
However, my hopes were dashed as you must have figured by by the title of this post.
His conversion to Calvinism
He emphasizes that he was once among those who didn't believe that God chooses some to be saved and does not choose others. He recounts his conversion in breathless wonder. I wonder what his initial conversion story was like…
My viewpoint eventually changed, and I can still remember the moment I understood God to be absolutely sovereign in redemption. After pouring over the chapter on Jesus’s response to Nicodemus in John 3, everything clicked: without the Spirit of God, I’d be spiritually blind; without the new birth, I’d be spiritually dead. for the first time I grasped what it meant to be saved to the praise of his glorious grace (Eph. 1:3–14). The jaw of my heart fell out of my chest and crashed onto the sidewalk.
What his church believes is not as clear cut as he makes it seem
He claims his church does not require adherence to all five doctrines of grace.
But the people in my church aren’t monolithic in their view of the doctrines of grace. Our statement of faith doesn’t require allegiance to all the “five points.”
However, I spent about 30 minutes reading over the website of Mt Vernon Baptist Church. I bet there are few readers of TWW who would walk away from such a review and say that the church is not a hard core, Calvinista sort of church.
- If you read *Our Beliefs* you will find the section replete with references to election, regeneration, perseverance, etc. Gender also makes an appearance.
- There is the inevitable church covenant which mentions discipline in the second sentence. (Remember, folks, this is a legal document and I do not see a mention of this which I find troublesome.)
- Not only does the author mention Al Mohler's The Briefing, along with Ask pastor John (Piper) in the post, but his church's bookstall is replete with books from CJ Mahaney, Kevin De Young, Russell Moore, RC Sproul, Tom Schreiner, Don Carson, Jared Wilson, Dave Harvey, Mark Dever, Bob Kauflin, Bruce Ware, Carolyn Mahaney, Gary and Betsy Ricucci, Wayne Grudem, and an entire section devoted to Puritan books. (Note to Mt Vernon: Please add book about child sex abuse and the church.)
I think it would be better for the pastor to tell the whole truth as opposed to pretending that the church is somehow open and diverse.
The Dividing of the Saints
Aaron believes that the following divisions will help us to *understand* one another. Please read the full descriptions in his post. I have highlighted some areas that I find interesting.
1. The Natives
I think Aaron correctly points out what hard-line Calvinist believe. Recently, I got an email from two different folks. Both of them claimed that I need to *understand* what the Bible teaches. One was fussing about my interest in evolutionary creationism and the other was claiming that I wasn't a Christian because I am not a Calvinist. I have read my Bible, extensively and told them so. I just disagree with their interpretation.
Natives grew up steeped in conversations about sovereign grace. When their Sunday school teacher asked them why God allows suffering in the world, they answered, “For his glory! Some natives assume the doctrine of divine sovereignty much the way they accept the doctrines of the Trinity and sanctification; it’s simply what the Bible teaches. Natives have a hard time understanding why people struggle with election or predestination.
2. The Converts
I agree with the author in this regard. The converts that I have met believe that somehow they have the full picture now and the rest of us do not. However, I have yet to meet an Arminian Christian who gave herself credit for any part of her salvation.
Converts remember the day they came to understand the doctrines of grace (see above!). They can speak of that moment almost like a second conversion. They regret how they once gave themselves some credit for their salvation. Converts are skeptical of church programs and marketing and anything that seems like it could appeal to the flesh. They worry a focus on human responsibility will eclipse the precious truth of God’s sovereignty.
3. The Novices
Here is where I start to get a little miffed. He assumes that those who do not buy the 5 points of Calvinism need help in working through the implication of God's sovereignty. What if we don't? What if we have worked this through quite thoroughly and still don't buy predestination?
Novices are new to the idea of God’s sovereignty in salvation, and they worry it leads to a fatalistic view of the Christian life. They’ve been told the doctrines of grace stifle evangelism and good works. They struggle to grasp how churches that did so much good for them could have neglected something so important as sovereign grace. In congregations full of natives and converts, novices can feel like second-class citizens. They need help working through the implications of God’s sovereignty, but they rarely ask for it, fearful they’ll appear out-of-step with their family of faith.
His advice begins to reveal his true problem. In the end, this pastor is a 5 pointer and believes that anyone who is not does not understand "the full counsel of God." No matter how hard he tried, he just couldn't go there.
To the natives:
The author believe that 5 Point Calvinism teaches the full counsel of God. That mean anyone who does not believe this is somehow inferior in their beliefs. I guess he believes that Non-Calvinists cannot adhere to sound doctrine. Good night!
Be thankful God opened your eyes long ago to the depth of his love for you. Never take good teaching for granted. God providentially placed you in a family or church that taught the whole counsel of God, gripped even the difficult doctrines, and believed a sound life depended on sound doctrine.
To the converts:
Here he becomes downright condescending. He tells the converts to be gentle and patient with those sweet things who don't seem to understand the truth. The truth is 5 Point Calvinism, mixed in with complementarianism.
Be careful, gentle, and patient with those around you. You might help them by explaining where you once struggled with these truths, too.
To the novices:
He wants Scripture to *shape me.* I assume he believes that, unless we are 5 pointers, we are not interested in letting Scripture change our lives. As for things in the Bible that make me feel uncomfortable, he has no idea how much I have wrestled with, how much I have read and how long I have studied. It is arrogant to assume that anyone who disagrees with Calvinism is somehow ignoring *difficult* Scripture.
Be open to teachings of the Bible with which you might be uncomfortable. Let Scripture shape you. Remember that even the hard doctrines are for your good.
Notice how he goes on to say that he only struggled as a *young Christian.* I guess that means he assumes that all who do not love John Piper, etc. are immature. Oh, and our problems with God's ultimate authority (by this I am guessing he means that God predestines the salvation of only some) are ill-founded.
It bothered me that he didn’t choose everyone. As a young Christian my problems with God’s ultimate sovereignty in salvation were ill-founded, but they were real and needed to be addressed patiently and with love.
Why this post doesn't work.
There is absolutely no tip of the hat to Christian who is not a Calvinist. In the end, Menikoff comes across as arrogant. He is the one who has the whole truth and the one who understands the whole counsel of God.
He also appears to misrepresent the beliefs of Arminians as commented on by John.
A few other commenters picked up on what could be an interpreted as a patronizing tone of the author.
Unfortunately, Aaron comes off as the intellectually and spiritually superior Calvinista whose advice will only lead to more division in the body of Christ. He is not the solution. He is part of the problem.
Advice for those Calvinists who really want to try to get along:
1.Do not assume that all those who disagree with you are weak in their theological background.
For example, I have read all of Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology, most of Calvin's Institutes, much by Sproul, along with Platt. Mohler, and many others.
2. Don't assume that if a Calvnist conversionvhappened to you that it will happen to me.
You are not me. You do not have my background, experiences, education, etc. We do not all walk in the same shoes.
3. Stop treating your "come to Calvin" moment in the same way as your salvation.
It is not the same and you should be ashamed if you believe it is. Study apologetics for Christianity, not Calvinism.
4. Find some points on which we can all agree.
5. If you think that I need your help to understand Calvinism, God's sovereignty, etc. then I know that you need my help to understand why I am not a Calvinist.
6. Next time you write a post about non_Calvinists, run it by one to see what she/he thinks.
6. Study Wade Burleson and see how he treats those who differ from him on Reformed theology.
He is a shining example of how to do it.
7. Join a Bible study with Calvinists and non-Calvinists.
See what you can learn. I am in one such study. One of our dear friends is a 5 point Calvinist and he actually likes this blog!
8. Now here is the hard one. If you really want non-Calvinists to be comfortable at your church, pick a church leader who is a nonCalvinist.
We have done that here. Wade's sermons are on our EChurch. There can be unity in diversity if you really want it. Do you?
Finally, I am assuming that you have told every potential member, up front, prior to joining, that your church that stresses Calvinism and you think that Non-Calvinists are in need of help to understand the truth. That is what honest people who follow the Truth would do.
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Yup, I became a believer in an Arminian church and no one was bragging about saving themselves. I only heard it when I went to a Calvinistic church as a criticism of Arminians.
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Dee,
I thought Aaron's name sounded familiar. You wrote about him last year.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/06/19/membership-covenant-abuse-a-rebuttal-to-leadership-journal-post-on-church-discipline-and/comment-page-1/
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Aaron was Mark Dever’s first ‘pastoral assistant’ at CHBC (1996-2001):
https://web.archive.org/web/19991007230745/http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/Staff.htm
“Aaron Menikoff
Pastoral Assistant
Aaron joined the CHBC staff in November of 1996 to assist the pastor with the demands and opportunities of a growing, urban church. He and his wife Deana Menikoff, both live in the Capitol Hill community. Aaron has a degree in economics from the University of Oregon and, prior to beginning full-time service at CHBC, was a legislative assistant and speechwriter for Senator Hatfield. He is currently pursuing a Masters in Divinity degree.”
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So very excellent! I shared this on my Twitter, on my Facebook, and on the Facebook of the Society of Evangelical Arminians. This will also appear Friday on my This Week in Arminianism post.
Let me add: the author’s grammatical tone also appears a bit manipulative: i.e., implying that, if the believer wants to be a mature Christian, accepting *all* that the Bible teaches, and wants to be a fruitful believer who grants God His rightful due, then that person will become a Calvinist. This is exactly the way a manipulator speaks.
He gets people to think that their views are inferior, unspiritual, unbiblical, robbing God of His glory, and then wins them over to his side through this sneaky method. It is underhanded, in my opinion, and misleading. I’ve watched college and seminary students be convinced by this method and become “Reformed” fan boys — only later, thankfully, to abandon Calvinism altogether. I’m grateful for posts like this one!
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“They regret how they once gave themselves some credit for their salvation . . . . . They worry a focus on human responsibility will eclipse the precious truth of God’s sovereignty.”
Okay, then I wonder what a neo-Cal does with this:
” I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live ”
(from Deuteronomy 30:19)
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William Birch wrote:
Exactly! I’m beginning to believe that most Calvinista leaders are manipulators.
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does it seem to anyone that Calvinism is a ‘thought system’ where the pieces have to all be accepted in order for the whole to make any sense?
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I remember when people didn’t talk about 5 points incessantly. It was three points and a poem and a *gasp* altar call to the 1-3 and 6th verses of “Just As I Am.” Repeated as necessary. Those were the good old days…
Seriously, can we not just be persuaded in our own minds without trying to bludgeon one another into submission to our *interpretation* of a very few verses? Must we all be Systematic Theology fanatics who cram every single verse problematic verse into our tight system? Clobbering the clobber verses until they surrender to our System? What did people believe before Calvin and Arminius made everything fit? Before Augustine and Pelagius?
To me it is not clear what the intent of this article is. If it was intended to persuade, I think it might persuade more people to re-think their allegiance to the “Doctrines of Grace” as they are currently defined within the sub-culture in which they thrive. Perhaps some might de-convert from YRR-style uber-Calvinism to something more modest and less abrasive. I know some of those folks, thankfully, and they are the ones who realize that things are not as neat and tidy as we might like in order to make us feel comfortable that we fully understand God and his ways and his plan. Job’s buddies were quite confident…
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I took two semesters of systematic theology, taught from a Calvinistic viewpoint (although they did explain Arminianism as well.) After years of pondering these things I have to say I identify as neither Calvinist nor Arminian. God’s truth is more wonderful, more mysterious and more complicated-and yet beautifully simple at the same time-for a mere puny man (or woman) to totally understand. Has it occured to these folks that God is way smarter than they are and that their understanding is at a very very juvenile level compared to the truth of God and how He has orchestrated reality? A bit prideful to think one can dissect the Bible like a dead frog and think one has God all figured out!
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@ Christiane:
Good point. What is the position of the RCC on these “points?” I ask because of Augustine who seems to be the beginning of this line of thinking.
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Christiane wrote:
Quite simple. They choose to accept the “new life” that comes with accepting John Calvin as their personal soteriologist and theologian!
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Bunny: “A bit prideful to think that one can dissect the Bible like a dead frog and think one has God all figured out!”
Love it!
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@ Gram3:
The Council of Orange in 529 discussed Augustine’s views on predestination, and rejected them. They agreed with him on pretty much everything except that.
Basically the Catholic church has a similar view on the interaction between God and man in salvation as Arminians do.
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Gram3 wrote:
Hi GRAM 3,
this is what I know: in my Church, we believe that in any work of salvation, God initiates the process, but that He does not decide for us what we choose . . . that a part of the dignity of the human person IS the opportunity-curse-freedom to choose life or not to choose life
We differ from evangelicals in one major way, this: Our Vatican Catechism states:
“”Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery. Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved.”
We are on the same page with evangelical Christians in that we do believe that whoever IS saved, is saved by Our Lord Himself.
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I’ve heard of mixing metaphors, this is a demolition derby. Who talks like that?
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Bill M wrote:
why, Shel Silversteing of course in ‘Where the Sidewalk Ends’
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Shel Silverstein! correction
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This whole belief system is more horrifying that I can express. How is it that these Calvin believers—those who believe a deity “sovereignly” created untold millions of people (or even one!) to consign them to eternal torture—find any joy in their belief? Are they cruel at heart? To my mind, finding joy in such a “truth” is just sick.
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Debi Calvet wrote:
I meant, “more horrifying THAN…”
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Interesting to note that WW’s “pastor”, Wade Burleson, is a five point calvinist. He seems like a genuinely likeable guy. Notwithstanding, teaching that multiplied millions of humans have been and are being born into the world without a Savior. Also teaching that the One who says, “Let your yes be yes and your no be no” vacillates between “yes” and “no” with regard to His desire for everyone to be saved. Additionally teaching that Our Heavenly Father has a “secret will” (not revealed in the Scriptures) that is diametrically opposed to His will that is stated in the Scriptures for all to read and understand. I have questioned Wade on these calvinist “truths”, but have not gotten a reply.
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Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.” John 14:6 NASB
For some reason, Calvin is not mentioned. Jesus left out Calvin.
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Alan House wrote:
That does seem to run contrary to what Jesus said in the Bible:
“What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs.” (Matthew 10:27)
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Daisy wrote:
Well, Daisy, there are just any number of things that seem so plain that a fourth or fifth grader could read and explain them but, according to calvinist thought, mean more or less exactly the opposite of the plain meaning of the text. And if you don’t see it, it just proves you need a calvinist to take you aside and explain to you what the scriptures REALLY teach.
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I am always mystified by people like Aaron Menikoff. He holds a PhD in church history but his thoughts and writing are more indicative of indoctrination than education. Some seem to get more arrogant with education, others end up more open to questions than answers. In this case Menifoff takes an incomplete understanding that we all work from and ends up with complete confidence. He represents a good example of self-enhancement bias, his view is better than anyone else (who disagrees). Such a lack of self-awareness likely has repercussions within the institution he heads up.
He reminds me of bad bosses I’ve seen over the years, the self-deluded types that are heedless of opposing viewpoints, especially from those considered subordinates. I’d hate to be the bearer of bad news in his organization.
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Bill M wrote:
As we used to say in East Texas, “Sing it!”
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Christiane wrote:
No, I think it’s more like a house of cards that – if you try to take out even one card – will collapse.
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Bill M wrote:
Knowing more usually leads one to realising that one knows less than one previously thought.
Only those who know very little and those who are very arrogant think that they have all or most of the answers.
Menikoff is obviously is quite educated, so he can’t be an example of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action, can he? cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
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Bill M wrote:
Where is his Ph.D. from?
I carefully vet peoples’ credentials. My ex-NeoCalvinist/9Marxist pastor claimed to have a Ph.D. He bought it from an online Bible College in the Mid-West I found out when I did my digging.
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William Birch wrote:
Just like brainwashing and Boot Camp — break down the boot until he’s nothing, then rebuild him in the desired image. Demolish the existing personality and insert a new one.
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Alan House wrote:
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
but it all comes down to
LONG LIVE BIG BROTHER!
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Alan House wrote:
A “secret will” revealed only to a special Inner Ring of Illuminated Elect.
“Gnostic” = “He Who KNOWS Things”.
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How do people even begin to think they can follow God AND be dishonest? This basic paradox boggles my mind.
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Walter Martin, known for his apologetics ministry in the last century, made what I think is a beautiful statement regarding this issue–he said that as believers approach the gates of heaven, on the outside of the gate it will read “Whosoever will, come.” After the believer passes through the gate and looks back upon it, on the inside is written “Chosen from the foundation of the world.”
A wonderful theologian, Sarah Sumner, (author of Men and Women in the Church, a book that ought to be read by all in church leadership) describes the difference in how western thought views paradox compared to the biblical times Jewish view of paradox. Dr. Sumner writes that in western thought, paradox is viewed as contradiction–in Jewish thought paradox is seen as two sides of the same coin, a both and, rather than an either or. I cannot do her thoughts regarding this justice, but that understanding has helped me reconcile seemingly contradictory passages and interpretations of Scripture.
I lean toward the reformed side but am appalled at the emphasis on the ‘doctrines of grace’ rather than the love of Jesus and extreme mercy of God. The answer to all, I believe, lies in an understanding of the character of God. I believe that God desires all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth; I believe he cares for us as well as the Sparrow that falls. The bromide explanations for suffering in this world seemingly absolves the hard-core Calvinist to pray for and seek to relieve that suffering–almost an inshallah attitude of passive acceptance.
If a person’s suffering is for God’s glory, who are we to interfere?
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I completely agree with this post… It is supreme arrogance to think one can really, deeply, understand all of this. As I have said before, how does one truely understand the trinity, let alone all the rest?
bunny wrote:
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Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
This needs a like button!
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Velour wrote:
Spot on. Too many preachers (and many more non-reformed than in the reformed camp) running around with “doctorates” that were either bestowed as honorary or obtained from some diploma mill, albeit with a christian label on it.
I don’t have a PhD but friends who do say that it is considered poor form to refer to yourself as “Dr” on the basis of a doctorate that you did not actually earn. My wife, though she’s not a PhD, works in science research surrounded by several PhD scientists and says that she would have serious questions about the integrity of those who market themselves as “doctors” who didn’t actually earn it.
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Ron Oommen wrote:
I agree… Further, how does a hard core Calvanist deal with the fact that an electron has properties of both a particle and a wave (or density function)? Again, our limited minds can not comprehend what appear to be fundamental contradictions…. All of these YRRs that are so zealous need to take some phyisic to realize the limits of the human mind…
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Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
HUG often compares NeoCalvinism to Islam, but here I see a parallel with the way some people might approach a belief in karma. If people are poor or made to suffer, and if I’m convinced that their hardships are just punishment for their sins in a previous life, then what motive do I have to reach out to them in compassion, encouragement or help? After all, I would only be interfering with their purification, and their attainment of nirvana.
(My apologies to anyone if I have misrepresented the doctrine of karma, or how it is actually practiced by Hindus or Buddhists.)
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Christiane wrote:
It’s roots are Augustine. Basically Calvin systematzed Augustine.
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“They worry a focus on human responsibility will eclipse the precious truth of God’s sovereignty.”
And that sums the Neo Cals up in a nutshell.
If you are a responsible adult you won’t need the specially anointed leader. And that is a problem for them.
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Christiane wrote:
Yes!!! I realized that once I abandoned neo-Calvinism and accepted the NT in it’s simplest terms (that God and those who have the mind of Christ must certainly agree on what love, justice, good fathering, etc. look like), that God wants to be known and understood by us; and in universal salvation, I had no furthur need of my shelf of apologetics books. All the pieces fall seamlessly into place. And to my supportive family here at TWW, if the idea of universal salvation makes you angry, ask yourself why the eternal conscious torment of billions “glorifies” God. This is not meant to provoke, it’s an honest appeal to rethink that bastion of hell we inexplicibly cling to. And to rethink the truth that God that died for the sins of ALL (as the bible says), not a token few, as one of the doctrines of grace, limited atonement, states.
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Velour wrote:
From Dr. Menikoff’s Church Site:
Aaron and his wife, Deana, came to Mount Vernon in June 2008. They have four children: Rachel, Jonah, Natalie, and Tori. They moved to Atlanta from Louisville, KY after Aaron completed his Masters of Divinity in Biblical and Theological Studies and his Ph.D. in American Church History from Southern Seminary.
Apparently Southern Seminary confers PhD’s as well. I wonder what his dissertation was, and who sat on his panel.
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@ Jason:
Thanks so much for that info. Of course, now I must go an look up that council. Which will raise more questions. 🙂
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@ Christiane:
Thank you, Christiane.
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@ Ron Oommen:
Agreed. Also I am upset I did not think up a screenname with Eutychus in it. Love that story!
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Lydia wrote:
Thanks for highlighting this among so many points for discussion. I have never, ever understood how human responsibility eclipses God’s sovereignty nor have I had it ever explained by a 5-pointer. Did the words of the human authors of the Bible eclipse the authority of the Holy Spirit? Of course not, and I think 5-pointers would agree.
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Janet wrote:
There is a fairly good case (IMO) to be made for a form of annihilationism, even from a very conservative viewpoint. Not airtight, but neither is any other view of what happens after physical death. Basically the thought is that our view of hell stems more from Greek thought than from Hebrew/Christian Scripture. You are very brave if you raise that in *any* conservative church, however.
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Debi Calvet wrote:
Debi, I’ve been reading some of John MacArthur’s articles denouncing the Roman Catholic mass (and all things Catholic for that matter—thanks a lot, Dee and Deb, for putting me through this!).
The opening lines of this article claim “no pleasure in the death of the wicked” and “no delight in people condemned to hell.”
http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/90-318/explaining-the-heresy-of-the-catholic-mass-part-1
And then MacArthur goes on systematically to explain why Catholics are going to hell if they follow the Roman Catholic Church. He’s very good at what he does.
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Ron Oommen wrote:
There was a Baptist college in Georgia that called many instructors in their education college ” doctor” even though they only held the EdS ( Education Specialist) degrees…..it is NOT a doctorate….
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siteseer wrote:
They are The Predestined Elect.
Amazing what a Get-Out-of-Hell-Free Card signed by God before the Foundation of the World can do.
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Alan House wrote:
1. I am glad to see more folks on here from East Texas.
2. I often wonder about theological education. When I got out of seminary, I had a friend ask me…” What’d you learn? ” And I had to honestly answer…..” Nuthin’ ….”
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
And the tragic ending to the book:
“But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.”
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Ron Oommen wrote:
Didn’t someone in one of these comment threads say that when someone flaunts his PhD and insists on being called “Doctor” (up to replacing his actual name) that the Doctorate is always Honorary/Fake?
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“It bothered me that he didn’t choose everyone.”
And here is where they lose me. ‘For God so loved the WORLD’. Not a handful of people he pre-chose to love. And I don’t see changing my mind on this, ever, no matter how many condescending speeches I hear.
Just like I will always be a Baptist at heart on baptism, no matter if I switch denom’s a few times.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
The only person in real life who made a big deal out of their doctorate was a teacher I had who had literally just gotten it. At work, people use it in a professional context when appropriate, but that’s it.
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Ted wrote:
And what is IT that he does?
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Mr. Menikoff’s piece oozes with the typical arrogance characteristic of so many New Calvinists who believe they alone are the keepers of Truth.
“God providentially placed you in a family or church that taught the whole counsel of God, gripped even the difficult doctrines, and believed a sound life depended on sound doctrine.”
For folks who believe they have a corner on “sound doctrine”, they don’t seem to be able to convert it to “sound life”. The conduct of many of these folks as documented on TWW just doesn’t reflect that their orthodoxy (right belief) translates to orthopraxy (right actions).
“Be careful, gentle, and patient with those around you. You might help them by explaining where you once struggled with these truths, too.”
For those who have met Truth, they don’t struggle with “truths” as expressed through the teachings and traditions of men. Genuine believers are comfortable in their spiritual skins and don’t need folks who have been indoctrinated in aberrant theology to be careful, gentle or patient around them as they attempt to get them to buy the lie they bought.
“Be open to teachings of the Bible with which you might be uncomfortable. Let Scripture shape you. Remember that even the hard doctrines are for your good.”
He really means be open to the teachings of men who have misinterpreted Bible passages that the rest of Christendom read differently by the Holy Spirit. The “hard doctrines” of reformed theology are not for your good! If you open your mind to distortions of Scripture touted by New Calvinists, your spiritual brains will fall out. Folks, read your Bible in huge doses and pray for the Holy Spirit to teach you … use that filter to sift the words of men … be wary of teachings that attempt to reverse what you know in your knower. Indeed, let Scripture shape you, not indoctrination.
“As a young Christian my problems with God’s ultimate sovereignty in salvation were ill-founded …”
Scripture speaks much about the sovereignty of God. Scripture speaks much about the free will of man. It all works together in a way that is beyond human comprehension. I have never met a genuine believer who has a problem with God’s sovereignty, except the version presented through reformed theology which paints a determinist God who saves some and damns others before they ever draw breath. To put the mind of God into a neat systematic theological box is to stand in arrogance before Him. And there is no shortage of arrogance in New Calvinism.
Roger Marshall in his comment gets to the core of the problem that God has with Calvinists “I have serious issues with the very principle of soteriology being forced into this entirely man-made 5-point mold.” Thank you, Brother Marshall – I believe you accurately reflect God’s heart on this. These folks are messing with God’s plan of salvation! Dangerous ground! Al Mohler in his “theological triage” indicates that soteriology should be considered as a secondary doctrine which should not separate Christians … yet the Calvinist Doctrines of Grace do just that – they are divisive teachings. Excuse me Al, but I believe God considers His plan of salvation for ALL men to be essential for Christian faith, not a secondary or tertiary dot or tittle.
At the end of such articles, I find myself praying for Calvinists. My burden is that they will have a direct experience of Grace through an encounter with the living Christ, rather than be ensnared by rigid doctrinal propositions about grace. This truly is a clash between law and life.
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Christiane wrote:
I like this. My mother told me once that she was bothered by the idea of people who had never heard of Christ going to hell, and she found a verse (I can’t remember which one) that said something very similar to this. So this is what I believe as well. Proper theology or no.
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William Birch wrote:
New Calvinism is characterized by manipulation, intimidation, and control.
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Max wrote:
“Some things were perfectly clear, seen with the vision of youth
No doubts and nothing to fear, I claimed the corner on truth…”
— Billy Joel, “Shades of Grey”
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@ Bridget:
. . . besides bashing Christians outside of his small.circle.of.chosen.elect.
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Christiane wrote:
Yes, Calvinism is largely a system of philosophical thought. I call it stinkin’ thinkin’ when it claims to have a corner on the truth that the rest of Christendom has lost.
Many reformed folks are uncomfortable with their own teaching about the “Limited Atonement” of Christ. They hold to “Unlimited Atonement” and are hesitant to put Jesus in a box of dying for some, but not for others (as they should be!). Moderate (4-point) Calvinism has always seemed a paradox to me. Can “Unlimited Atonement” truly come alongside “Unconditional Election” in a reformed theology grid? In a study of this recently, I ran across the following quote. “Reformed pastor and author R.C. Sproul suggests there is confusion about what the doctrine of limited atonement actually teaches. While he considers it possible for a person to believe four points without believing the fifth, he claims that a person who really understands the other four points must believe in limited atonement because of what Martin Luther called a resistless logic.” In other words, there really is no such animal as a 4-Point Calvinist … one can’t toss a petal from the tulip and be true to Calvinistic belief and practice.
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bunny wrote:
I know the feeling, Bunny. I approach Scripture as a “Biblicist” and allow the Holy Spirit to teach me Truth. If John Calvin and Jacobus Arminius had spent more time doing that, rather than coming up with a few points of their own, we wouldn’t be in such a mess.
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@ Christiane:
I know a pastor who calls it *equation* Christianity. It solves everything. Anything bad that happens is *for Gods glory.* God’s glory is what it is all about. Jessica Lunsford’s kidnapping, torture and death was *for God’s glory.*
If you are not a Christian, it is because you were not selected. That is, of course, unless you are a child of a Calvinista then you must try to evangelize them because they MUST be Christians. If your child rebels, you shouldn’t be a pastor (ala CJ Mahney’s mandates). But, they rebel because God didn’t choose them so why should the pastor be punished?
In this theology, people struggling in poverty and dying in garbage dumps in India are examples to simply show the glory of God. We have no agency since it is all *for God’s glory.* So me doing something bad versus my doing something good does not matter since whatever I do it is all for God’s glory and it has all been ordained.
The most important lesson for all of us is this. They claim that we have not be enlightened by Calvinism. When they say that, we must stand firm and say we get what you are saying. Our thoughts are legitimate. We disagree with your interpretation. Hang tough. Don’t let them diminish your thinking which is what they try to do. They want to neutralize your point of view and make you seem like a lesser Christian. Don’t let them.
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bunny wrote:
I like this.
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Mike wrote:
And it is quite simple! They have the answer for everything.
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Jason wrote:
I did not know this. Thank you for being it to my attention.
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Bill M wrote:
Someone who is more excited about becoming a Calvinist than becoming a Christian, maybe?
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Bill M wrote:
New Calvinists are always trying to come up with one-liners that are outrageous enough to be re-tweeted across cyberspace. They try to out-do Piper Points, Mohler Moments, Driscoll Drivel, Mahaney Malarkey, etc.
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Yuck, I hate all this stuff so much. I find it highly suspicious that the earliest church & Christian writers all talk of God wanting to save all people & man being able to resist, hence the repeated appeals, as though we were ‘response-able’. That’s the classical Christian line. It’d be weird if those closest to Christ, entrusted with his message, to be his ambassadors of reconciliation, before they wrote the NT down, forgot what the NC’s call the doctrines of grace. For hundreds of years. If the theological picture was reversed & God’s love for all was only posited 400 years after Christ the NC’s scorn would know no end. But it’s the other way round -the earliest understandings of all the ‘crucial’ Bible passages were non-deterministic.
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Dee, if you Google the Orthodox church’s response to Calvinism you’ll find a lot of very interesting stuff. They’ve been querying it for 1500 years & consider it a heresy.
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Bill M wrote:
Education does not produce one ounce of revelation. Don’t get me wrong – I don’t have a problem with education (I even have some). But New Calvinists pride themselves on knowledge and intellect, rather than seeking and humbly submitting to revealed Truth in the inner man.
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Lydia wrote:
Yes, the very reason that SBC’s New Calvinists resist long-held Baptist doctrines of “priesthood of the believer” and “soul competency.” If you rely on the Holy Spirit to teach you, you won’t need the young whippersnappers to lead you to “truth” and they won’t be able to manipulate, intimidate and control you.
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@ Debi Calvet:
There answer to you is that you don’t get God. That drives me nuts. They set up the paradigm in their favor. It goes something like this.
We should all die and be tortured for eternity.
You should rejoice that God chose some.
You are the clay telling the Potter how things should be. You are arrogant.
What if God is exactly who he says He is in the Bible? I am not arrogant because I *know* and believe what God says.
Are you going to reject the Bible and God?
Don’t you believe that anything God does is good? (This, of course, is assuming that God ordained Jessica Lunsford’s torture and death.)
The whole problem begins with understanding God’s role in our salvation. Arminians believe that God created in us free agency and that God works within our agency to call us to Him. We cannot effect our own salvation by any stretch of the imagination. Only God can do that. Calvinists refuse to believe that God could create free agency in us but they have no trouble with God ordaining the torture of millions of Jews in the concentration camps *for His glory.*
My response to that is baloney! Our theological bent is rational, in keeping with God’s attributes, as well as loving. And, God is way beyond us. There is much we do not understand and we can’t. He is infinitely powerful. However, we do worship Him and give Him thanks for saving us.
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Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
The old Calvinists leading the YRR rebellion in SBC ranks and elsewhere are capitalizing on the misplaced passion of youth to bring in the “new reformation.” Sad to see young folks used this way.
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dee wrote:
I hate this. To me, these things happen because God decided that we as humans should have free will. Why would you want to do away with free will? It’s biblically supported and it makes a much better god to worship than one who WANTS these things to happen? Honestly, I don’t think I would want to worship their version of god.
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Alan House wrote:
It is my hope that we at TWW can demonstrate that we can get along with those of a Reformed bent unlike most of the Calvinstas who cannot fellowship with those who disagree with them.
Wade knows that neither of the Deebs are Calvinists. Often he knows when it is OK to debate and then he knows when it isn’t. he respects all of us enough to know that he doesn’t wish to fight with us. He believes that we are all fully his brothers and sisters unlike the Calvinistas. He also has a very different view on authority, discipline, and the role of women. He does not fit into the Calvinista box.
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@ Alan House:
He went to SBTS. You MUST be a 5 pointer to survive there.
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siteseer wrote:
That is what troubles me the most.
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Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
I really, really liked what you said!
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Max wrote:
A plausible explanation, tweets are the bumper stickers of the internet.
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@ Ron Oommen:
It is not too difficult to get a doctorate in theology land. First, there are the so called *honorary* doctorates that are simply pieces of paper.
Then there are the theological institutions that give doctorates by counting one’s life experience and books written. Dorothy Patterson is one of those who received lots of credit from the U. of South Africa. http://swbts.edu/academics/faculty/theology/dorothy-patterson
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Max wrote:
“Wile E Coyote. SUPER. GENIUS.”
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dee wrote:
Chapter and Verse from Calvin’s Institutes.
“IT IS WRITTEN!” Fundamentalism with a Calvinist coat of paint.
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The key problem with presuppositional thinking like the supposedly air-tight, perfect theological system of Neo-Calvinism is this: What is you just happen to be even ever-so-slightly off on your choice of the foundational presupposition?
For instance, who says that God’s sovereignty is the be-all, end-all centerpoint upon which all other elements of truth must be integrated? Did God Himself reveal that? If not, then that paradigm integration point is merely your choice for your abstract system, not a mandate from God.
Or, who says that the five points upon which Five Point Calvinism is integrated are de fide? (And yes, I do know the irony of what I just did denominationally.)
How minuscule of a degree difference did the Titanic need in order to miss the iceberg that sent that shiny system to the bottom of the ocean?
Presuppositional thinking like we’re seeing demonstrated by militant Neo-Calvinists is a closed system — closed to larger frames of human logic and, ultimately worse, closed to the leading and empowering of the Holy Spirit.
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dee wrote:
“In’shal’lah… AL’LAH’U AKBAR!”
In Old-School SF litfandom, there’s a term called “The Cold Equations”, taken from the title of a classic SF short.
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Max wrote:
I think it is possible to be a 4-point Calvinist, but 5-pointers deny that. The question of “for whom did Christ die” is separate, IMO, from the question of “for what reason does a person believe.” Christ may have provisionally died for all while only the elect are enabled by God to believe and thus make the atonement efficient. There are nuances within Reformed theology that are more like a spectrum from 4-5. I am blanking on a very good audio series on the history of the development of Reformed soteriology before and since Calvin and who did that series. He was a 5-pointer, IIRC. If I can find it, I’ll post a link.
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Max wrote:
They are imitating their God.
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dee wrote:
And that’s a shame…..it shows you there is no such thing as academic freedom at a SBC school, even with tenure. That is why so many good professors were run off from the seminary during the CR. They let students have minds of their own.
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
Yes, and closed to correction which makes failure of the system inevitable, IMO.
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Max wrote:
“Corner on the Truth that the rest of Christendom has lost.”
So claim the Mormons, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Landmark Baptists…
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Gram3 wrote:
…should have been “appointed by God” I think. It is crazymaking for a human to make sense of what God intended and what he is doing and why.
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dee wrote:
I actually have a friend who is a staunch Arminian who thinks this way, so maybe it is not always such a clear distinction between Calvinists and Arminians, but a mindset about God that can cross the line? Or maybe my friend is holding inconsistent views, I don’t know.
This view that we all deserve only torture, death and hell fills my soul with gloom and oppression. It tries to explain everything but explains nothing.
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@ Bridget:
Ted wrote:
—He’s very good at what he does.
Bridget wrote:
—And what is IT that he does?
Where I live that’s not usually a compliment.
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JYJames wrote:
This is a regrettable editing error that will be rectified in the next printing of the ESV.
😉
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dee wrote:
Granted.
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Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
A Protestant version of Hinduism and Buddhism. Karma.
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Gram3 wrote:
All I know about Hell is what Jesus said about it. He took it very seriously. I can understand the appeal of annihilation and universalism but I think it best to listen to Jesus on the topic. If we follow Him we will be with Him anyway, and that’s the best. (I have no desire to derail but just wanted to throw that in there)
Back on topic, yes, the main reason I could never be a Calvinist is I don’t like what they teach about the Elect. A lot of theological hairsplitting goes on when they talk about who can and who cannot be saved.
God is not a cosmic sadist, and I cannot ever believe that He would create people then not at least give them a chance to be saved. Otherwise He would be a monster and not a loving God. His desire truly is for all men and women to be saved!
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And what about the category of Bible-believing Christians who are willing to accept the tension between God’s sovereignty and human free will as an ultimate mystery? I believe in both. So, it is not a “struggle” for me as I believe maturity of faith is often marked by a growing awareness of how God’s thoughts and ways are higher than our thoughts and ways.
Also, it disturbs me how unselfaware Menikoff is regarding the very topic he raises. He fails to see how his categories are inherently off-putting for genuine Christians outside of his school of thought. The categories ASSUME everyone in his congregation is somewhere on the road to accepting Reformed theology as if this theology is the same as saying “Christian.” The fact that he does not see or address how arrogant that position is strikes me as especially troubling. What a blindspot!
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bunny wrote:
Exactly. My pastor emerged from this debate as a Molinist, and I emerged as an Atemporalist. AKA: we all love Jesus; let’s go get a pizza.
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@ Max:
I realize my bias but let’s at least give Arminius kudos for challenging a system of thought that *still* seeks to control people theologically and practically. The only reason why Arminius and the Remonstrants “had points” was to undermine the core of freedom-challenging Calvinistic philosophical-theology.
Again, I know my bias toward Arminius as well as anyone, but Arminius spent far more time in the pastorate loving people than in his own echo chamber regurgitating the theology of Calvin and Beza. Love all around!
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bunny wrote:
Yup! As those apophatic nuns used to say, “It’s a mystery.” These guys take all the mystery out of God. How can He be God if He’s so easy to figure out?
I’ve been online friends with a hardline Calvinist guy for eons. He keeps trying to bait me into debates. Occasionally I take the bait, usually regretting it later. One time this dude was going on about God’s sovereignty. I asked him who was *he* to tell GOD precisely how He was allowed to be sovereign? I don’t think he ever answered, probably just because he lost interest.
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XianJaneway, I am a Molinist, too! I have been deeply influenced by St Faustina Kowalska’s book, Divine Mercy in My Soul, and I firmly believe in Our Lord’s fathomless mercy. He excludes no one! This doesn’t equate to universalism… Some people do reject Him. But I believe He pursues every single human being with His love, grace, and mercy right up to the last nanosecond of life.
That’s my story, and I’m sticking with it!
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Gram3 wrote:
Gram3, I’ve heard that there are some neo-Thomists who adhere to almost a 4-pt position as you describe it: Christ died for everyone but His Atonement is only truly efficacious for the Elect or some such thing. I may be misrepresenting this. Thomism is way over my wee little head.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I had to look closely, I though your were saying “They are irritating their God.” which would likely be accurate.
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@ Velour:
“My ex-NeoCalvinist/9Marxist pastor claimed to have a Ph.D. He bought it from an online Bible College in the Mid-West I found out when I did my digging.”
++++++++++++++
isn’t it possible he did the work? (could have been silly work, though)
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Too bad so much theology is over my head as an everyday disciple. Not that doctrine is unimportant, but I’m not sure I have sufficient I.Q. for what these guys require in order to be considered right. Thankfully, we can all access the fruit of the Spirit and develop righteousness. Guess I’ll “settle” for that …
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@ Gram3:
This is a tricky one. And it depends on the audience they are talking to how many points there are. I realize the points came after Calvin as an easy way to teach the Institutes But what if we define them closer to the truth of Calvin and his belief system? Then it becomes a problem:
Total Depravity is total inability. Total. You are dead. You inherited Adams sin and guilt. You are born guilty and can do no good.
Unconditional Election means because you are “unable” God has to have elected
you for salvation before ‘the foundation of the world’. Before you were born, before Adam sinned, etc. You have no choice in election.
Limited Atonement: You might be one of the elected few for salvation. The Atonement was pre selective. Jesus knew when He looked at that rich young ruler and “loved” him whether he had been chosen or not. Nothing he did or did not do mattered. When Jesus went about teaching repent and believe He already knew many had not been chosen, yet it seems He was playing a bait and switch.
Irresistible Grace, You cannot say no. You don’t have the ability. It matters not what you do or don’t do. (This is one reason they never mention Driscoll, I suppose. Was he chosen to cheat in the Name of God?) Or was he this one:
Preserverence of the saints– this is a tricky one. In the Institutes Calvin claims one can look elect, act elect and believe with all their heart they are saved YET were reprobates all along. Calvin refers to this a some bit of grace for you on earth. ……So there is no real assurance.
So which one can go for the system to work? There is only one way to sell this “thought reform” about Jesus Christ: a state church with control or today, a totally unrealistic view of Gods Sovereignty which ends up making God “unable” to control His Soverienty. The Sovereingty controls God as if He has a sociopathic disorder. And it must ignore His other attributes. Especially the ones recorded of Him in the flesh among us.
This system makes God a liar and trickster. I have no interest in unity with it because there cannot be. They are different gods. And I especially worry for the young caught up in it. I already know a few who have totally walked away. They can only identify God as the cruel tyrant. I see what this movement has done to so many churches here.
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bunny wrote:
But that is begging the question as I see it. What did Jesus (and others) mean by what he said? I am not prepared to make a case for it but just to say that a conservative (based on the best textual evidence using conservative methods)case can be made for it which people will find either persuasive or not persuasive. In the same way that a conservative case can be made for non-Complementarianism. That does not make it true, of course, but I think we need to keep in mind that we *may* have misunderstood Jesus’ words for many reasons, including pagan ideas or other corruptions that have crept in.
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bunny wrote:
That is my understanding as well. I do not think “all” means “all kinds of” people. Really smart people inexplicably disagree with me, however.
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Thank you, Jason! Yep, the Council of Orange is crucial for the West. We are only partially Augustinian; we accept some stuff and reject other stuff. No one Church Father has the whole picture. 🙂
dee wrote:
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Divorce Minister wrote:
Or, perhaps those who disagree have departed for other churches? Maybe they are not on the road to accepting it, but rather have left because of it being taught so stridently? I’ve seen that kind of thing before with the charismatic movement back in the 70’s, for example. When an issue becomes polarized, the groups sort themselves out either voluntarily or involuntarily because the middle ground no longer exists.
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Gram3 wrote:
If He had meant “all kinds,” wouldn’t He have said so?
I know I’m dumb, but ISTM that if you have to twist certain passages into a pretzel and even add extra words in order to force them into the Calvinist Grid…then maybe your logical system isn’t quite as airtight as you think it is.
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Dee, I appreciate the advice for Calvinist who want to try to get along with those who disagree.
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
It’s the closed system that makes it work. You need the special knowledge or decoder ring to understand it so until God provides that, just believe what you are taught.
This Actually worked quite well because few people in evangelical church were studying different atonement theories, church history, etc, etc. So they come in using similar words like Grace, actually talk about sin and Gods glory and people think, at first, they are hearing something deep. And they are not paying attention as they take over the church bit by bit installing loyalists.
The point is, they have been brainwashed that we (non Cals) can never understand. If you dare question too much, they ignore you or censure if they can’t get rid of you by excommunication.
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Gram3 wrote:
It’s been years since we ran into (Dr.) Eric Svendsen, but from I remember he is a 4 ptr. His analogy was something along the lines of God purchased the entire paper in order to keep the sports section. (Dr.) James White was in a tizzy with him.
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@ dee:
Yes! I believe it was Roger Olson who said that such a deity—the one who intentionally created people to torture them eternally—would be a monster. Calvinists have to do verbal and logical gymnastics to squirm away from that very logical statement.
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Lydia wrote:
Everything I read about Calvin and Calvinism makes me feel ill. Talk about total depravity…
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Lydia wrote:
Very interesting way of thinking about it. I do think they have made Sovereignty the super-attribute. One benefit of that is that if God is Sovereign and the pastor/elder speaks for God, then effectively the pastor/elder has appropriated God’s sovereignty. Sort of like the kings (I am not learned in history, so may have that wrong.)
Here’s a thought experiment: what if God’s supreme attribute is Goodness or Mercy? We would have a totally different kind of God. But why can’t people hold all of his attributes together as non-severable and non-rank-ordered (apologies for funky punctuation)? What does it even mean for one attribute to effectively define all of the other attributes of our transcendent God?
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@ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
Happens with John 3:16-17 and “world.” Someone who is a 5-pointer would need to explain why they take that POV on “all” and “world.” I’m pretty sure that hasn’t been argued over very much. 🙂
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There are definite cultic tendencies, or at least what I consider precursors to cultishness, in Menikoff’s approach. The air of superiority, however carefully couched in Bible-speak. The certainty that anyone who disagrees just needs to be influenced a little more to see the Calivinist light, and the tacit implication that if they can’t be brought around, they’re at the very least some kind of second-class Christian, or maybe even lost.
All these things create a closed system, isolating and sealing off those inside from those outside. You want in? Toe the line or else. No compromise. No middle ground. No letting the secondary issues be secondary. No ecumenism. Love and charity are not primary in such a system; they (or what passes for them) are contingent on doctrinal agreement and theological assent.
People heading down this road eventually reach a point at which it becomes nearly impossible to dialogue with them because as an outsider anything you say is automatically dismissed, especially if it challenges their system.
Much in Menikoff’s approach reminds me of John MacArthur’s approach to these things; that is another organization I believe has many cultic elements in its way of approaching the world, but that’s a story for another day.
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kin wrote:
He’s one guy who makes me look positively and joyfully winsome. The most frequent objection I’ve heard over these many years to General Atonement is that it somehow “wastes Christ’s blood” on people who will never believe. An alternative statement of basically the same idea is that Christ failed to fulfill his mission if all he came to save are not ultimately saved. This idea of wasted blood has never made sense to me because Christ’s blood was only wasted if he came to force everyone to be saved or ensure that all were saved somehow and some were not saved.
If, however, he came to provide a way of escape which was not compulsory for every last human, then he accomplished all that he came to do when he made that provision. Nothing wasted at all. No failure of mission at all.
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Lydia wrote:
Think of a North Korean or ISIS True Believer.
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Gram3 wrote:
I’ve heard it said that the core difference between Christian and Islamic views of God is that Christianity emphasizes God’s Nature (Goodness and Mercy) and Islam emphasizes God’s Omnipotent Will.
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Lydia wrote:
At which point, you have stepped into Socratic Atheism.
Because at that point, God is no longer God, The Soverignity is.
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Divorce Minister wrote:
I always picture this as a road between 2 deep ditches. The ditch on one side is God’s sovereignty, the ditch on the other side is man’s responsibility.
Both exist, and we walk the path between the 2. Go too far either way and you’re in a ditch.
I see the same thing with grace & law.
.
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Ted wrote:
I kind of figured that but also wondered if you had a specific IT that he does.
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Bridget wrote:
I think the IT that he does, and very well indeed, is the John MacArthur thing. 🙂
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bunny wrote:
This! So much this. The arrogance that thinks they have God figured out – just wow.
This is such a favorite topic of mine. I’m a total math geek and I think every theologian should have to study geometry, particularly dimensions. The geometry we all learned in high school is called Euclidian or planar geometry, meaning the geometry of two dimensions – just length and width with no height. There is a whole system of rules for two dimensional geometry, like how the three sides of two triangles being equal proves their congruence while the three angles being equal does not (sorry if I’m causing anyone to have bad flashbacks!) The kicker is that when you add a third dimension (height) all the previous two dimensional rules don’t necessarily apply. Things that were either-or can suddenly be both.
I see Calvinism and Arminianism in the exact same way. In our limited 3-D view of God’s universe, it has to be either-or, they can’t both logically be true at the same time. But knowing God dwells in dimensions higher than our human selves can see or imagine, I’m sure pre-destination and free will live happily together with no contradictions.
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Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
To the Calvinistas, CALVIN Has God All Figured Out in his Institutes (talk about bibliolatry…)
Which leads to its own brand of Socratic Atheism.
Because if God can only act according to CALVIN’s theology, God is not God, CALVIN is God.
(My original example was Predestination; If God can only will what He has been Predestined to will, then Predestination/Fate – not God – is the REAL God.)
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roebuck wrote:
I share a revulsion for any teaching about God that departs from what has been revealed about God through the coming of Christ among us. And speaking of that, the Calvinists seem to disregard the full understanding of the importance of the Incarnation as a part of our salvation, which I find remarkable indeed, as it is such a huge part of orthodox Christian thinking. Our Lord, in undergoing the Incarnation event, took on our humanity fully, and in eastern Christianity, is the saying: ‘what is not assumed could not be saved’. . . I’m Catholic and I’m sure our Eastern Orthodox commenters can explain this better than I have, but to dis the Incarnation as a part of the whole Paschal Mystery places the resulting teachings of Calvinism into a sad, dark place.
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Kemi wrote:
There is a reason the Jewish name for what we call the Holy Spirit is ha-Ruach, “wind” or “breeze”. Because the wind blows wherever it will; you don’t know where it came from or where it’s going, you can’t see it, you only feel it as it blows past.
I think there was a song in the Sixties whose chorus went “I may as well try and Catch the Wind.” And these guys have that Divine Wind (ha-Ruach, not Shinfu/Kamikaze) caught and caged in their own Perfectly-Parsed Theology Box.
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Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
“We are talking about God. What wonder is it that you do not understand? If you do understand, then it is not God.”
(St. Augustine, a Doctor of the Church)
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Jerome wrote:
This, and the fact that he received his M.Div. and Ph.D. from Southern says everything we need to know about the good pastor/doctor.
I am a full five point Calvinist, but I have never found it difficult to “get along” with Arminians (or others). In my opinion, the Bible makes it clear that Jesus died to save sinners; how God brings that about is not so clear, so it isn’t a point worth dividing over (as long as Christ is the only way).
As an aside, I listened to a great sermon by Pete Briscoe this morning while driving to work. The title was There’s Oil in My Coffee and the sermon can be found here: http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/telling-the-truth/listen/theres-oil-in-your-coffee-525162.html. It is about those who add to the simplicity of the gospel.
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@ Burwell:
Oops … There’s Oil in Your Coffee. My mistake.
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elastigirl wrote:
Not a bona-fide Ph.D.
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Kemi wrote:
Yes to geometry and Venn diagrams, sets and systems, and other mathematics and logic concepts — totally agree!
From my background in futurist skills, it gets quite interesting when you add a fourth dimension to model how a three-dimensional system can morph over time, so that what was once ascendant is now descending, or what had been a very sharp point becomes blunted.
Too bad some theologians attempt to pinpoint the elements in their system to the enth degree, when God’s complexity goes beyond their infinity.
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I was thinking about this all day and you know what is on my mind is the following. I wonder if working for Oregon Senator Mark Hatfield swayed Aaron Meinkoff. Here’s why I say this….in the GOP Mark Hatfield was quite liberal. He did not tow the line in the party and was quite the moderate. To be elected from Oregon he had to be. So here comes Aaron working for this extremely moderate to slightly liberal Senator. I wonder if that left him confused and he say the black and white fundamentalism of CHBC and Mark Dever as “refreshing” in light of back and forth moderate approach that Hatfield had.
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I completely agree with Dee on this… There is no place for dishonesty, especially on a corporate level…
dee wrote:
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Who gets involved in cults and why? I wrote this last year.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/09/01/why-do-people-get-involved-in-questionable-religious-groups-cults-and-sects/
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I heard that “Rauch” is used 89 times in the OT, and in 81 of those instances the grammatical gender is feminine (the same source said all Jewish nouns are either male or female).
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Kemi wrote:
I’m somewhat of a math geek myself. A few years ago I purchased “Mathematics: The Loss of Certainty” by by Morris Kline from the clearance rack (my kids laughed at me). In a nutshell, he described how mathematicians were trying to prove that Calculus is both consistent and complete (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_theory). They wanted to do this because they could not understand how Calculus could so effectively use infinity and infinitesimals to get real results. But they couldn’t prove it. Ao they went back to the gold standard or Euclidean geometry and found that not even Euclidean geometry is consistent and complete. So they basically got frustrated and checked out of reality and started doing weird stuff. Meanwhile, the physicists and astronomers continued to get spectacular results because they just used the formulas without getting wrapped up with the details that caused the mathematicians to lose their sanity.
Calvinistic is very much like this. The theologians are trying to make theology both consistent and complete. But it’s a fool’s errand. The only way to make theology work is to rely on something outside of itself – what I would call revelation.
Without going into theory, here are some working rules for dealing with Calvinism:
1) Those who don’t believe in Calvinism don’t really understand it.
2) Those who do believe in Calvinism don’t really understand it either.
3) No two Calvinists will ever explain Calvinism in the same way when given the same set of questions.
4) No single Calvinist will ever explain Calvinism in the same way when given a list of multiple questions. (Keep asking long enough and the explanations will change).
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
Well said!
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This is an interesting list of Calvinistic contradictions: http://blog.savetheperishing.com/114-contradictions-from-calvinists/. Some of them are pretty humorous.
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Alan House wrote:
I care not if he’s a 10 point Calvinist. He’s a kind and good man.
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@ dee:
I don’t think that they did reject Augustine’s view. This article suggests that they rejected Pelagius’ position.
http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/canons_of_orange.html
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Muff Potter wrote:
Yes, Wade breaks the mold. He places the love for God and one’s neighbor above all else.
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Ironically it was a Calvinist book, Why I am not an Arminian, that brought the 529 Council of Orange to my attention. Imagine, the church explicitly rejecting a Calvinist model a thousand years before Calvin was born.
To explain my own position, which is broadly Arminian, I have to credit apologist JP Holding who turned me on to the Context Group. When I started to learn more about the culture of the people who wrote the Bible, through books like The Handbook of Biblical Social Values, suddenly a lot of things started to click. The Biblical culture is collective, not individualistic, it’s agonistic (honour/shame) not guilt oriented.
Predestination is not of individuals, but of groups, there is “the church”, God’s chosen vessel for salvation, and “the world” which is not. However, just as you could become a “righteous gentile” or undergo circumcision and become a “Jewish convert” under the previous covenant extended to the Jews, membership of those groups is your choice. As Paul told his jailer, “believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.” Interestingly, the salvation of the jailer’s household was tied to his belief, not theirs, but that is normal in a collective culture with a patriarchal head of the family unit. Where he leads, they follow.
With the understanding of group identification comes our identification with Christ in his death, resurrection, and glorification. Whenever the Bible talks about us being chosen, note how often it qualifies that with “in him”. Because Jesus is the head of our “fictive kinship group” we are identified with him. He was chosen before the foundations of the Earth, so were we. He died, was buried, and is raised, so are we. He has ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father, so have we.
The understanding of that world as agonistic (honour/shame) helped frame a concept of Hell. Those who come to Christ are honoured, those who do not are dishonoured. Those “cast into the outer darkness, with wailing and gnashing of teeth” grieve their situation, but they are not being burned or tortured. They are excluded. From the ancient perspective, where everything was about community, being excluded (cut off from their people) can be worse than death.
With eternal life and death being understood in terms of relationship with God, firstly it does away with the silly Calvinist idea that we are corpses waiting for God to regenerate us so we will believe. Like the prodigal son we are dead to God, but that doesn’t mean we can’t “come to our senses” and respond to his call. Secondly, and possibly controversially, hell becomes something that people could “get over” if they wanted to. If someone genuinely wanted to let go of their pride and join the community of the faithful they could. The thing that keeps them outside is that they don’t want to. C.S. Lewis illustrated that idea in The Great Divorce.
One of the caricatures of Arminianism is that it is synergistic, that we somehow contribute to our salvation. On the contrary, salvation is totally of God, the most that could be said of us is that, upon hearing that we’re drowning, we put up our arm so the lifeguard can drag us out of the water. Sometimes a lifeguard will have to let someone almost drown because the person is too busy fighting the water to allow him to save them.
One of the other errors I find in Calvinist exegesis is that they read the Biblical texts with the insensitivity of a fundamentalist. If you read through Romans 9 you might be forgiven for seeing a Calvinistic interpretation, but if you remember that the Jews didn’t have chapter and verse divisions in Torah, and therefore the easiest way for them to reference a passage was to quote part of it and rely on the memory of their audience (because literate or illiterate, all Jewish boys memorized a lot of scripture) it suddenly takes on a very different tone. Jesus does that on the cross, referencing Psalm 22 for his hearers, evoking both the deep distress of the speaker, but also their hope of God’s vindication. Paul references Exodus 9 and 33, Jeremiah 18, Isaiah 29, and Malachi 1, to assure his listeners that God has always made a distinction between faithfulness and disloyalty, that he is faithful to his promises, that the church is the remnant of Israel, chosen over unfaithful Israel (just as Jacob/Israel was chosen before Esau/Edom in Malachi), and that God’s judgement is just because the potter cannot be deceived by pious protestations (Isaiah 29).
Anyway, those are just my thoughts on the matter. It may have gone on a bit long.
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lowlandseer wrote:
The important point is their rejection of the contentious part of Calvin’s version of reformed Christianity, remembering that Arminianism is reformed as well.
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I’ve witnessed conflict when those who heartily embrace divine sovereignty encounter those who wrestle with it. An ongoing issue with the YRR brand is their refusal to engage Arminian theology or thinkers. Someone like Roger Olsen would reply that arminians heartily embrace divine sovereignty as well. That really isn’t the issue. Classic reformed scholars are much more honest about this, but for some reason the YRR crowd continues to propagate these inaccuracies. In reality, the two are so similar that reformed scholars like Bavinck lump arminians as a sub-set of reformed theology, with the only major theological divisions being Catholic, Lutheran, and Protestant.
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I should have highlighted their specific point.
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elastigirl wrote:
I posted a comment to you on the other threat a few days ago, since you know by ex-NeoCal pastor. He’s quite deceitful.
Besides the purchased Ph.D. from an online Mid-West Bible College, and not a bona-fide Ph.D., that he has…he also claimed to have defended The Gospel before hostile liberals at a Southern California public college (after Master’s College and Seminary) when he was taking classes to become a teacher. The State of California Teacher Credentialing supervisors said that California has NEVER credentialed anyone with his name to be a teacher. All of his stories to us ex-church members were all fabrications.
He claimed to have a ministry job at John MacArthur’s church, working with children. John MacArthur likewise called that story lies and said that he was only a volunteer and never on staff as a pastor. (The ex-NeoCal pastor excommunicated one of JMac’s long-time close personal friends, a doctor in his 70s, godly man, for what else – critical thinking skills.)
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^correction: “thread” (not “threat). Fingers…
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Gram3 wrote:
Spot on.
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dee wrote:
I’ve been met with ill-concealed disdain from YRRs who tell me that “we can’t avoid labels”. To which I say, maybe they can’t I certainly can. Is it possible some of these guys cannot interact with people until they classify them like bugs?
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Gram3 wrote:
Where can I learn more about this viewpoint, Gram3?
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Ken F wrote:
Totally agree. You can’t codify a relationship.
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BL wrote:
Me too!! It all comes from trying to figure out every jot and tittle. We can’t, because we are not God.
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lowlandseer wrote:
Yes, they rejected both Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism. But they also rejected Augustine’s somewhat proto-Calvinist view that God had chosen the Elect out of the Massa Damnata for His own good reasons and pleasure. Which is why magisterial Catholic Teaching is neither Pelagian nor Calvinist.
My college medieval history professor (a Methodist) explained it this way: The Council of Orange said that you couldn’t say Yes to God, but you could say No. I am not sure that is an accurate statement, since I have not really studied the issue. But it sounds good!
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@ bunny:
AMEN!!! AMEN!!! AMEN!!!
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Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
And cover up evil: http://nydn.us/1RHjdxn
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William Birch wrote:
Why don’t they “reform” in this direction: http://nydn.us/1RHjdxn
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This thread is so full of win… where the heck is the like button.
I have never seen so many quotable quotes in one spot, I haven’t enjoyed reading this many comments in a long time.
The great philosopher Satchel Paige once said… “Mother always told me, if you tell a lie, always rehearse it. If it don’t sound good to you, it won’t sound good to no one else.”
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Velour wrote:
I’m sorry, but I simply cannot reconcile being loving with believing in the monster deity.
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Velour wrote:
His PhD is from Southern Seminary and this is his dissertation, Politics and Piety: Baptist Social Reform in America, 1770-1860 (Monographs in Baptist History), published as a book a couple of years ago.
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Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
Mr. Chalmers, loved your physics related commentary; ironically, I teach high school chemistry and physics. The wave-particle duality of the electron, as well as that of all matter (think DeBroglie) is one of the fun parts of the curriculum to explore. Students find it rather mind-blowing.
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Bridget wrote:
I didn’t see this comment of yours. Yes, that’s exactly the IT that MacArthur does. In this case, bashing Catholics.
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@ siteseer:
You can start with a search on “annihilationism debate” or “evangelical annihilationism.”
Here’s a video debate which I have not watched, though I have listened to other debates and heard Fudge elsewhere which I cannot now recall. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwOEk5cgOps
I am not advocating either position, mainly because I do not know enough about it, and particularly about Greek thought. However, I remember thinking about the Gehenna references when we were in Israel, and the word picture was a little different after seeing that the refuse from Jerusalem was “thrown overboard” into the valley into a continuously burning fire. The fire did not go out, but the refuse did not continue to burn day after day but was consumed. Similar is the idea of being “outside the camp.”
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My wife brought up to me the need for two eyes for depth perception; perhaps we can analogize the lens of Calvinism and the lens of Arminian thought as a means, if we look through both lens, as a way of seeing what is true in depth–one without the other is two-dimensional, rather than three-dimensional. (Fully realizing that all analogies break down, if extrapolated too far.) What if we were to think of these seeming paradoxical thought systems as a pair of lens to help us see the depth of God’s character? Just a thought…..
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__
“Get Trusted Insights On The Scripture, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
When we study God’s Word, we should always be watching out for those spiritual insights it offers, which might further inspire our personal walk with the Lord; these spiritural insights help us to grow stronger in Christ, and perhaps provide a greater impact wittness to others around us seeking refreshing spiritural waters to quenched their thirst.
Blessed is the fruitful believer who hungers and thirst after God’s word…
ATB 🙂
Sopy
—
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Why would a church have you sign a membership covenant and allow you in as a member in good standing if you don’t hold to the same confession as this particular church? I have, for the past 9 months been attending a LCMS church. I am not a member because I haven’t reconciled their view on baptism. If I can’t hold to the Lutheran confession I can’t be a member.
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@ Gram3:
Yes. Your choices, in that system, are universalism or limited atonement. It does not occur to them that humans are involved and have a choice.
I heard the ‘wasted blood’ position for years as if all are not saved, that makes God a failure. The only way out of that is God chose “who” before Adam even sinned. (Which means God planned that, too)
No, Jesus Christ, God in the flesh was a living sacrifice for all who repent and believe.
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I hear you. But Wade seems like a pretty loving, fair-minded, level-headed person. When Southern Baptists promoted Complementarism and women not teaching, Wade refuted it and said it wasn’t supported by the Scriptures. And he’s done lots of analysis of it on his blog, including defending women teaching and what the Greek texts actually said.
http://www.wadeburleson.org/
When Southern Baptists wouldn’t let missionaries serve who had *private prayer languages*, i.e. speaking in tongues, Wade disagreed again and defended it. Wade said that he’d seen this spiritual gift in some Christians and knew that it had not ceased. (I too have witnessed this spiritual gift in a couple of very close Christian friends, very reverent Christians too.)
When The Village Church pastors/elders (Matt Chandler, Texas) disciplined Karen Hinkley before some 6,000 members for her legally annulling her marriage from her child-porn watching husband (who confessed to her to having gotten away with on-contact sexual abuse of a child(ren)), Wade defended Karen and said Chandler/The Village Church was wrong.
Wade has also opposed Membership Covenants and written about that issue as well. He said he’d never sign one or be a part of a church that required them.
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DC wrote:
Thank you.
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Lydia wrote:
The 4-Pointers have trouble with Limited Atonement. They just don’t feel comfortable taking a classical Calvinism stance on the message of the Cross. If they are going to stand before Jesus and learn that they were wrong about reformed theology, they can at least claim they didn’t agree with limiting His atonement! Sproul is right, I think, there is no such animal as a 4-Point Calvinist … you might as well not call yourself a Calvinist if you truly adhere to the Doctrines of Grace as “the” truth and nothing but the truth. The 5 points all have to go together or fall together … it’s not logical to toss one out – reformed systematic theology collapses if you do.
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Muff Potter wrote:
Never said he was not kind or good. Pointed out that he subscribes to 5pt calvinism which carries some pretty ugly baggage, doctrinally.
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
You know, the teachings of Christ are pretty simple, so it amazes me how complicated Christian theology can get. I think there is some unconscious justification of jobs in there somewhere.
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patriciamc wrote:
I’m with you. Christ’s teachings are extremely simple.
And the people who complicate it are in it for money, books, power, authority, selfish motives. I’m a Protestant but I look at Mother Teresa as a beautiful example of Christian faith lived out.
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patriciamc wrote:
Straightforward? Yes.
As Paul’s jailer was told, “believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.” I’m not sure there’s any way to make it more accessible. Sure, we might have to explain that “believe on” has a similar meaning to “trust in” or “pledge loyalty to” but that’s about all that’s necessary.
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
This is one thing of several I’ve found puzzling about Calvinism. I’d say the Bible makes God’s loving nature out to be his top attribute.
It even says somewhere in the New Testament that “God is love.”
If God were a Calvinist who was preoccupied with his Sovereignty (or getting glory), I’d think one could expect the Bible to have said, “God is Sovereign,” or “God is Glorious.”
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Lydia wrote:
Doesn’t that rather make Jesus’ teaching about knowing a tree by its fruit (good fruit = good tree, bad fruit = bad tree) superfluous, or misleading?
I used to think that Calvinist Preserverence of the saints was the same as “Once saved always saved,” but after reading several sites years ago, I saw it explained that the Calvinist ‘Preserverence of the saints’ is no such thing.
They think self-professing Christians have to continually be working towards earning or holding on to their salvation.
I had someone explain to me that the Bible teaches that it’s God who preserves you, but Calvinists switch it around to make it like you have to preserve yourself.
You have to work for your salvation in their reckoning or work to keep it (this is how it was explained to me).
I find that funny, because if they are essentially teaching a works-based salvation in that regard, they really cannot be into God’s sovereignty and all that stuff about the Elect, and they run around accusing people who believe choice is involved at all in being saved are false, they are Pelagians.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
That might be something to ask Calvinists. 🙂
Can God act outside the teachings of Calvinism, or is God beholden to Calvinism? If God is beholden to Calvin’s teachings and interpretations of the Bible, doesn’t that mean Calvin is in charge and not God, or that God is not much of a God? 🙂
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Dave (Eagle) wrote:
Hatfield was a member of CHBC! Hatfield on C-SPAN in 1995 praising his new pastor’s Cambridge degree, preaching, and youth appeal:
http://www.c-span.org/video/?62592-1/senate-session&start=218
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Daisy wrote:
Yes, what happened to The Gospel and Christianity before John Calvin?
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@ Gram3:
Thanks, Gram3, I appreciate it.
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Ken F wrote:
As I’ve said on this blog a time or two before, all that has been my experience with other Calvinists I’ve chatted with on other sites.
I’d maybe add another point: Most Calvinists I’ve talked to cannot conceive of their being any other avenues other than 1. Calvinism or 2. Arminianism.
They will insist you belong in one box or the other and there is no 3rd, 4th, or 5th option (in their view).
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Daisy wrote:
THERE – not “their.”
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Daisy wrote:
P.S. to that.
If you do think Calvin is really accurate about God and his interpretations of the Bible, I’d hope you would make triple darn sure of that.
There are so many Christians (or groups of) who are each convinced that THEIR understanding of God or doctrines are 100% correct and that everyone else is wrong.
For example, the complementarian guys think complementarianism is really biblical and true. I used to be one.
But then I came to see as I grew older the Bible does not teach complementarianism … so you have this sad situation of a bunch of denominations (who subscribe to comp) managing to defang and de-claw half the church (i.e., women) based on THEIR wrong interpretation of the Bible.
And depending on where you are with other topics – are you into six day literal Creationism or theistic evolution, or baby sprinking vs. adult baptism, or whatever other subjects Christians feud about – you can see that some Christians are misunderstanding some topics and misunderstanding the Bible on those topics. Not everyone can be right on all this stuff.
I would think Calvinists would be open to keeping all that in mind and considering that maybe Calvinism is a big mis-read of the Bible and who God is.
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Gram3 wrote:
And that’s just the thing about paradigms with “bound set/closed system” DNA, isn’t it. It can only accept “correctives” from inside the system. But all systems go toward entropy unless the energy that is lost is somehow restored. So, such systems are setting themselves up for inevitable failure.
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Lydia wrote:
I think if we could market a Discernment Ring we could make a kazillion dollars! But first we must strategize and systematize it, the analyze and marketize it, then make sure to promote it and … oh wait … circular thinking. Then we’ll need to come up with some other ring when people misuse the Discernment Ring so we might do better to prevent it from happening in the first place. Okay, toss that idea.
P.S. Since we’re talking about rings, was The One Ring made in Geneva?
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patriciamc wrote:
His yoke is easy, his burden is light — now that’s *truly* biblical. And epic. This theology wrangling over details that are read from between the lines in Scripture (or read into the lines of Scripture!) wear me out.
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patriciamc wrote:
I was saying something very much like this on Julie Anne’s blog several months ago.
The older I get the more i realize I do not know. I do think some Christians make Christianity too complicated.
I mentioned at Julie Anne’s blog my mother used to sing the song “Jesus Loves Me” to me when I was a kid. What theology I have left now is pretty much boiled down to the lyrics of that song, which I feel is the essence of the faith:
“Jesus Loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so.”
(Not that I’m saying it’s wrong for people to think about other matters of the faith or to think about them deeply or to study them, but doing it too much, too often, personally, gives me a headache at times.)
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
I’m in charge of the online store for the new ministry, started right here recently on TWW by another poster, called Pound Sand Ministries (TM). I felt “called” to online retail.
(We are in a fierce competition with Nick, across The Pond, who has started a new ministry also announced right here on TWW over the weekend. He will also offer a cooking class for 995 Euro and reveal his *top secret* recipe.)
May I suggest that the Discernment Ring be sold in boxes of snacks, like Cracker Jacks?
We could sell a high-end box of Swiss chocolates (in honor of John Calvin) with a Discernment Ring that could be given to those who make a “generous love offering” (TM).
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
You would just find out you need to drink more Ovaltine and then feel really disappointed.
Be sure to drink your Ovaltine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdA__2tKoIU
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Velour wrote:
This conversation is really cracking me up! I love it!
For some reason “Pound Sand” makes me picture “dramatic Dmitri” https://mir-s3-cdn-cf.behance.net/project_modules/disp/e6b37f22851765.56319624b5d3b.jpg
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Velour wrote:
It would seem that those who want a high-end Discernment Ring actually need one, but won’t be helped by it.
That who don’t get one perhaps know already they don’t need it. Reward with just the chocolate, if you please.
Thank you, Daisy. And Nick.
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Amen to that Brad. Me too. I read one book by Timothy Keller (and that was enough) and didn’t understand a word of it.brad/futuristguy wrote:
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siteseer wrote:
That is a funny picture!
And theme music from Days of Our Lives and the sand going through the glass timer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98T3PVaRrHU
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
Oh Brad. Have I told you that you won’t be invited to the marketing meetings for Pound Sand Ministries (TM) online store?
You must be in the Accounting Department. They ALWAYS say *no*.
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
A lot of people feel overwhelmed by the complexities of theology . . . I found this advice to be comforting:
““I didn’t need to understand the hypostatic unity of the Trinity; I just needed to turn my life over to whoever came up with redwood trees.” (Annie Lamott)
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ION: Weather
Blighty, and Scotland in particular, continues to enjoy an unprecedented summer thanks to the polar jet-stream meandering far to the south of its normal course. Lesley and I are optimistic about a day’s rock-climbing on the Isle of Skye this weekend. By contrast, France is getting our summer at the moment; this is no laughing matter as they’re contending with a significant and widespread risk of flooding. As Wartburgers attempting to follow the French Open will be aware, a great deal of time has been lost to rain. With more rain forecast for Thursday and Friday, the tournament looks very likely to spill over into next week, although tournament director Guy Forget* is currently saying it won’t.
*”Guy Forget” is a real name, pronounced GHEE FOR-SZAY in French. By coincidence, it happens to be an English quasi-sentence.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
I recall watching Guy Forget on TV in his playing days. We kids used to crack up every time we saw his name displayed on screen.
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Daisy wrote:
Good thing you were not around Geneva of the 1500’s to point that out!
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@ Max:
I can remember back when Ezell and Russ Moore were claiming to be 4pointers at Highview which was a non Cal church at one time.
Personally, I don’t think Doctrine was really all that important to Mohler and his top brass of the SBC. I think it was an issue to rally young boys around. Like inerrancy was for the CR.
In the early days it was rarely brought up to big groups. Mohler made his stardom as a culture warrior.
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kin wrote:
Here is my question: If people were pre selected all throughout history, then why the need for the Cross/resurrection?
And then there is the idea that at some point in the pre selected persons life, God has to “activate” their election through preaching because the pre selected persons unable to respond.
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
It’s not over your head, so much as it’s invented behind your back.
(I know you’re fully aware of this, of course, and that I am simply picking up the satirical baton…)
If God became human, and the experience moved him not to contempt but to compassion – that changes
everything
. Swapping real-life stories of what this means could involve anyone with a pulse. But professional theoclergians* don’t want this. Ergo, they re-brand the interaction as a discussion of the soteriological significance of the hypostatic union. In doing so, they’ve actually made it shallower, not deeper – but as Paul observed, whereas love builds up, knowledge puffs up. Knowledge, IOW, counterfeits one of the outward effects of love; it makes you look bigger without adding any substance.* That’s not a word, but it should be.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I missed this earlier. I agree. It is one reason, I think, that the YRR were taught to frame every doctrinal point within a Calvin/Arminius dichotomy.
There seem to be strains of determinism and dualism in all Protestant thinking and that is where the Neo Cals like to stay.
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Serious question. If it’s all predetermined (if I understand the theology), then how do Calvinists explain the great commission? Or that Jesus said he had come so that none shall perish? So to them, creation is just a tape playing in a machine? God listening to some tunes before he gets around to some smiting? If it’s all a done deal then what’s the point? I can see why Evangelical Christians are concerned,this certainly puts a damper on being ‘evangelical’, can they be even called Evangelical?
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Jack wrote:
That is just being obedient. And evidently, preaching is when God activates the pre selection done before the world was formed. The Neo Cals are big on “church planting” missions in cities with churches on every corner in the better zip codes.
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@ Jack:
Personally, I do not believe Calvinism fits well with our very free will focused Constitution. I think that is why it, for the most part, evolved into a social Gospel focus. There have always been schisms and such but it eventually evolves if it grows big enough. History sort of bears this out. But major damage is done in the meantime.
We are already seeing they are attempting to rebrand by embracing some social issues and presenting a softer side as they control people. Russ Moore is on the forefront of this. I can see hints of it on many YRR blogs. Big talk on unity now, too. Before we did not know the true Gospel. Now they are willing to tolerate us.
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The Low Sparrow wrote:
Ha! So did I, and I think I did pretty much understand it. And that can be just as much of a problem (supposedly) as *not* understanding it.
Of course, theology that fits on a bumper sticker can be just as tedious as theology that requires multivolumes to comment on the comments of those commenting on Scripture.
I don’t mind applying our mind to learning and discerning about the Triune God. But it is just all toooo tempting to make the theological mind the goal instead of the well-lived life and Christlike character the goal.
When theological erudition becomes our high-bar, we’ve already done the Fosdick Flop over into gnosticism …
P.S. I may have missed it in the thread above. But if someone promised chocolate in exchange for discernment, please let me know where to apply for a supply. Thank you.
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If theology is *all* supposed to be about soteriology, does that mean this theology is sindoctrination?
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P.S. Maybe bumper sticker theology can have merit …
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Lydia wrote:
That may be why some people wander into ideas like eternal justification.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
That bears repeating. Several times.
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Jack wrote:
My understanding of their position is that God ordains the means (evangelism) as well as the end (justification.) Some strains of Baptist thinking wandered away from this idea and said missions were unnecessary.
The “none shall perish” refers to those who are the elect and not to humanity as a whole, consistent with their Limited Atonement doctrine. The fact is that *if* all of humanity believed and trusted in and identified with Jesus, all would be saved. Even in the Calvinist system.
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
Negative feedback to the system is *necessary* for proper functioning, but it is certainly not welcome in many human systems.
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Robin C. wrote:
Interesting question. I suppose that ideally every member would sign on the dotted line with a strict subscription understanding of the church’s confession or statement of faith. That is one idea of “unity.” As a practical matter, that is difficult to maintain, even for denominations that require that of their ordained clergy. I think pewpeons have different “deal-breakers” like baptism while the theoclergians (thanks, Nick) have other “deal-breakers” like Female Subordination and Membership Covenants. Most times you can live together as long as you stay quiet about your disagreement and don’t have an overly pesky conscience.
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Lydia wrote:
There was a time (and still is) when hearing this made steam roll off my head.
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Gram3 wrote:
Wasted blood? What a bizarre concept! If he came to die, he came to die, whether it was for one person of 50 billion, the same amount of blood would be shed.
And all of this makes sense if you believe god gave us free will and allows us to make choices. If you reject that out of hand, you have to come up with all sorts of explanations, most of which make god sound monsterous.
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Gram3 wrote:
I’m going to have to disagree with you on this one Gram3.
The reason they have you sign the membership covenant is so they have you in the seat, paying a tithe, but they can still “discipline” you if you get out of line with their secondary (now elevated to first) doctrines.
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Lydia wrote:
I sort of agree with you Lydia. Mohler definitely needed an “issue” to motivate a young and restless army … so he tacked on reformed. It’s certainly clear that he is on a mission, passionate about his cause, truly believes his theological confession, and is intent on altering the SBC landscape to nothing less than a reformed entity via the release of YRR seminary graduates into SBC churches.
His 1993 convocation address at Southern entitled “Don’t Just Do Something; Stand There!” was filled with warnings which majority SBC leadership should have more effectively dealt with while the window was open (it’s closed now). In his charge to rally his Southern troops around the reformed Abstract of Principles, he made the following statements:
“The Abstract remains a powerful testimony to a Baptist theological heritage that is genuinely evangelical, Reformed, biblical, and orthodox.”
“We bear the collective responsibility to call this denomination back to itself and its doctrinal inheritance. This is a true reformation and revival … ”
There may be other drivers steering Mohler (power, prestige), but bless his little obviously unenlightened heart (to borrow from the blog title), he is wrong to throw the rest of the church under the bus with his new reformation.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
For you folks looking for a good bumper sticker, here it is!!
Before there was God, there was Calvin? I don’t think so.
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@ Bridget:
The Neo Cal movement has gone to great lengths to enforce their interpretation of the legal membership covenant and Hebrews 13:17. I honestly have never seen anything like this form of authoritarianism and control before. And the only reason we know, are because brave souls told of their experience.
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@ Max:
Don’t get me wrong, I think he is a Calvinist. But I doubt seriously he would have been happy to just be part of the Founders. (I heard Nettles finally retired)
But the SBC public knew him as a culture warrior, not a Calvinist. The Calvinist stuff was in-house SBTS for a long time. It wasn’t secret but it wasn’t announced to the general SBC, either, or he probably would not have lasted.
For Mohler, the movement had to be big and all encompassing.
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Bridget wrote:
Practically speaking from own experience, you are exactly right. 🙂
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Lydia wrote:
Agreed. SBC’s old guard Founders-type Calvinists tried unsuccessfully for years “to call this denomination back to itself and its doctrinal inheritance.” Mohler, while respecting the old boys, could never have settled for less by merging into their organization … he needed the energy of youth to pull off the new reformation. It’s too bad that he couldn’t just remain a culture warrior – he is pretty good at it and I agree with him on most of the stands he takes in that regard. But I’m not sure the non-Calvinist masses in SBC know him as either a culture warrior or a Calvinist – they’re too comfortable doing social church. The apathy of SBC millions has created an opportunity for something to takeover the denomination – it just so happens to be reformed theology, with NC leaders and their youth group playing dangerous games.
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Bridget wrote:
This is a useful variation on the theme of “A time is coming, and now is, when…”
IHTIH.
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Jack wrote:
Exactly! And, what about John 3:16-18??? “….whosoever believeth……
And, “Satan’s like a roaring lion, roaming to and fro, seeking whim he may devour.” Is there really a Satan? Doesn’t these teachings make God and Satan one and the same, since God makes bad things happen “for His glory”!
I also have a major problem with complementarianism, both Cavinist and non-Calvinists. Doesn’t that belief make women God-appointed service animals …….. just another species (just a little below men) that God told men to subdue and have dominion over?
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@ brad/futuristguy:
“I may have missed it in the thread above. But if someone promised chocolate in exchange for discernment, please let me know where to apply for a supply. Thank you.”
+++++++++
not cheese?
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@ Gram3:
“ideally every member would sign on the dotted line with a strict subscription understanding of the church’s confession or statement of faith. That is one idea of “unity.” As a practical matter, that is difficult to maintain, even for denominations that require that of their ordained clergy…..
Most times you can live together as long as you stay quiet about your disagreement and don’t have an overly pesky conscience.”
+++++++++++++++++
at my most recent church, I observed philosophical tension between the (lead) pastor and executive pastor (gah, i hate all these silly titles), although kept on very friendly terms. almost like a joke between them, like, “sigh, alright, I’ll defer to you AGAIN but you owe me a tri tip sandwich. next time you won’t get off so easy!” (I just made that up, but that’s the general feeling)
the executive p. went to Fuller Theological Seminary, the (lead) p. to Trinity Evang. Divinity School. I think the senior looked down on Fuller a bit (but again, expressed as a friendly teasing rivalry between them). but of course there was truth behind it.
I did observe on a number of occasions that the executive p. was championing a theological point or a groups program that he didn’t truly embrace, wasn’t convinced of. the over-conviction of his communicating indicated this to me, as well as other things I picked up on.
I felt bad for him. to have to do this over one’s most deeply held beliefs… very hard.
i think he saw it as his role and the right thing to submit to the (lead) p. I think he should have pushed back more. there was much flexibility in this church, and i can’t believe it would have put his job in jeopardy.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
And East Texas weather forecast…rain, rain, rain, rain….this after 6.61 inches here at my house on Friday…( the Oregon Scientific rain electronic gauge was one of my best investments…ever…)
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Nancy2 wrote:
The comps might not have thought of that idea, but now that you mention it, they’d probably agree!
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Lydia wrote:
Do they also insist that the sunlight and rain that God showers on the “unjust” and “unbelievers” is also wasted? According to Jesus, God doesn’t seem to mind “wasting” his good gifts in this way…
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elastigirl wrote:
Yup. If you’re from Wisconsin. And it’s cheddar. White cheddar. Wisconsin white cheddar. Only. All other forms of Wisconsin products, cheddar, and non-Consin white cheddar are non-elect.
(Wow. Just wow. And that’s how it all gets started. Neo-Cheddarism for the foodological elites.)
(Whereas chocolate can be for the masses of populist disciples.)
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Nancy2 wrote:
Great way to describe it!
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Maybe they should finish the French Open in sunny Scotland?
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Nancy2 wrote:
And I will add I think Calvinisms determinism is a horror for victims of all stripes. There is just no way around the end result that God is controlling every molecule 24/7. Some view it as heir chance to suffer for piety, ala Piper and others. But for some, it is a reason to walk away.
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Jack wrote:
That’s my problem with Calvinism too. If it’s all pre-determined, who is going to Hell and who is going to Heaven, then why even have The Cross and Jesus’ death and resurrection? God could have bypassed all of it if He already knew where everybody was going.
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@ Serving Kids In Japan:
That part I think they call common grace. When horrible things are done to innocents, I don’t really want to contemplate why as much as I want to fix and prevent it. I really do get the impression our Lord agrees that is our responsibility.
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
You may now go to your local See’s Candy and have a free sample.
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
That would be NO American cheese for Nadia Bolz Weber! :o)
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elastigirl wrote:
Nick is in charge of that.
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Jack wrote:
Your questions frame the concern that the majority of Christians have with the tenets of Calvinism. Of course, reformed folks would respond that they are engaged in the Great Commission but the GC to them takes on an entirely different meaning. Their mission is to harvest the elect, not reach the lost. That’s why you don’t hear passionate pleas coming from their pulpits for lost folks to repent of their sins and accept Christ. There is no need for altar calls, sinners’ prayers, and “accepting” Christ … you already have your ticket punched or not. Essentially, if you keep coming to their services, you obviously have been chosen and don’t need to do much about it. Oh, you need to at some point to express faith and get baptized … but the process certainly doesn’t look like evangelism practiced by the rest of Christianity. Calvinists are not evangelical in the true sense of the word.
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@ brad/futuristguy:
Brad, you knocking my adopted home state! Wisconsin? if so you are playing with the phirana 😛
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Gram3 wrote:
In these authoritarian church (9Marks, Acts 29, John MacArthur-ite) “unity” means blind obedience to the pastors/elders and church discipline and excommunication/shunning for the slightest disagreement.
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Velour wrote:
See, told you chocolate was the mass of the choices!
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Dave (Eagle) wrote:
Nope. Just telling the Neo-Cheddarist truth. I take no responsibility for it being true; don’t shrill the messenger.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
That sounds amazing!
Some of my family hung out on the isle for skye for a hundred years or so before heading west, as I understand it, but I didn’t get a chance to visit when I went to Scotland. Hopefully next time!
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@ brad/futuristguy:
no, not from Wisconsin, and it’s not cheddar. it’s epoisse from france and wensleydale with cranberries from yorkshire, england & that’s just or starters.
all neo-cheddarists can live in their make-believe unicheese world if they want, but why postpone cheeseheaven for the afterlife when you can enjoy all the varieties now!
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
Nor *shred* the messenger.
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elastigirl wrote:
That’s just *grate* (TM).
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Neo-Cheddarists are for cowformity!
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The bacteria that make for cheddar cheese are the only ones unaffected by The Fall. Hence, Neo-Cheddarism is the only true cheese free from that curse. Non-cheddarists think their cheeses are true, but they don’t understand the facts of cheddar bacteria. We have the one, true, perfect, tasty, chosen cheese.
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Velour wrote:
Exactly. Unity certainly doesn’t mean being one with the rest of Christianity which does not readily accept the tenets of Calvinism and its expression in belief and practice. As TWW reports, there’s not a lot of brotherly love in reformed ranks … especially if you don’t toe the line with church leaders.
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Lydia wrote:
INGSOC and Goldsteinism.
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Velour wrote:
What would God ever do without Calvin?
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Daisy wrote:
That is Socratic Atheism.
Because if a god is beholden to or controlled by something else, then that thing which controls the god is the REAL god and the god is only a puppet.
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Velour wrote:
Velour, I can see that you were replying to me. I appreciate your saying you hear me, but I don’t know… In my mind, creating people for eternal torture is infinitely more cruel than being complementarian. (Don’t get me wrong: I’m against that too.) Eternal suffering will never end.; earthly suffering will. That’s just a simple way of trying to explain why I cannot reconcile the nice-guy stuff with the personal belief.
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@ Jason:
Hello again. I hadn’t read anything about the Council of Orange until the subject was mentioned here the other day. So I did a bit of googling. I referred to one website and you were good enough to reply. Ive googled some more and found another website that has been quite helpful.
http://www.crivoice.org/creedorange.html
I quite like Cousin of Eutychus’ analogy of two eyes for depth perception and applies it to Calvinism/Arminianism
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Debi Calvet wrote:
I don’t know enough about Wade Burleson’s beliefs about Calvinism to comment. He doesn’t strike me as an intractable adherent to it, from his speaking, writing, humble interactions with others, defense of people and their beliefs that hard-core NeoCalvinists normally attack.
Here is Wade’s touching blog article about Whitney Houston’s death and funeral.
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2012/02/perspective-on-funeral-of-whitney.html
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
Calf-inism, as it were.
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roebuck wrote:
Well, not so sure about that. Calf-inism doesn’t have as many points to hang things on. It isn’t “real” cow-finism and doesn’t cowform.
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roebuck wrote:
Brilliant commentary! You guyz are on today.
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
Just what I’d expect some Cheddarista to say 😉
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Something to restore faith in humanity… 300 male and female firefighters flew from South Africa to Alberta to help combat the devastating Fort McMurray fire (now the size of the Everglades). When they arrived at the Edmonton airport after a 22-hour trip, they sang together in baggage claim:
https://youtu.be/F0nbAQm-N_4
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Friend wrote:
That’s fantastic!
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roebuck wrote:
Dagnabbit, you other cheese blockers are ignorant and annoying!
You don’t know what you’re talking about!
You’ll never understand true Cheddarism!
You’re misrepresenting us!
You’re the ones with the holes in your cheese, and we’re the only ones with The Whole Cheese!
Get your cheese block, and stop cowmenting on ours!
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@ brad/futuristguy:
[Get your OWN cheese block, and stop cowmenting on ours!]
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@ lowlandseer:
Thanks for the link! Very interesting and succinct. My only quibble is how most theological historians present Pelagius. We really only have what his detractors documented that he believed and a few things he wrote that survived destruction from his detractors. I often wonder if his infamous reputation as a heretic is deserved. It seems like he was more concerned with our living out our beliefs and personal responsibility than the doctrinal minutia of Augustine.
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Max wrote:
Not only that but would the calvinistas allow Christus Victor to be taught at their church, for example? It seems They want Unity when it comes to the money flowing in.
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I have posted my latest update on the open discussion thread…
http://thewartburgwatch.com/open-discussion-page/comment-page-10/#comment-255983
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On the subject of cheese:
Cheddar is indeed of God. I think that we cheese followers should be called:
The People of the Whey
Amen.
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As a post-script to all things Cheesey, I am a believer in the Second Blessing of lemon zest/juice in my cheese sauce, as regular Wartburgers will have observed already.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
You guys are *milking* this.
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Velour wrote:
Am I too latte to chime in?
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Robin C. wrote:
Good question. I think a lot of YRR churches want the best of both worlds – the classic acceptance of traditional baptist churches melded with the control and authoritarianism of confessional churches. It does seem odd, doesn’t it?
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
This membership contract thing smells of greed. I think churches like this want the tithes and overlook the gaps in doctrinal allegiances. I’m too cynical, I suppose, but ‘contracts’ to me are LEGAL documents, and are way out of place in a faith community.
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Christiane wrote:
According to Mark Dever (Capitol Hill Baptist Church), founder of 9Marks, you have to have a visible membership (via church membership contracts) and it is what holds Christians together (not of course Jesus Christ).
https://9marks.org/about/
https://9marks.org/answer/church-membership-biblical/
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Daisy wrote:
Precisely! They tend to limit all conversations to extreme views. For example:
– You are either Calvinist or Arminian. The reality is these two views are much closer than Calvinists will concede. I am neither.
– God decrees every detail of the universe, or he is sovereign over nothing. I think the only thing we can positively state about his sovereignty is that he can do whatever he wants to do with it and is in no way constrained by our theological systems.
– You either believe in limited atonement or you are a heretical universalist.
The list goes on and on.
It’s this type of thinking that energizes the four rules I proposed. It’s not possible to consistently describe one’s theology when there is so little room for nuance. When they paint themselves into a corner they come out swinging rather than reflecting on how they got there.
I’ve described in earlier threads how I often feel like I am running with scissors theologically because of the questions I’ve been asking and the stuff I’ve been reading over the last year. Here is some of the more interesting stuff I found so far:
1) Baxter Kruger is so much a fan of “The Shack” that he wrote a book on the theology behind it and became good friends with the author. The YRR crowd is so fanatical against “The Shack” that this alone interested me. Kruger has a very interesting take on unlimited atonement that is worth considering. Here is a short sample: http://baxterkruger.blogspot.com/2012/09/universalism_10.html. For those who have time to listen, this is a very interesting series of lectures:
http://perichoresis.org/the-cat-is-out-of-the-bag/. He seems to be pointing back to the early church.
2) I discovered Kruger through listening to a series of interviews here: https://www.gci.org/youreincluded. I’ve been working my way through this list when I walk my dog in the evenings. I don’t agree with everything I hear, but the contrast with what the YRR crowd teaches is stunning. After a year of getting depressed by researching Calvinism it was these interviews that helped me get out of the rut. The scary part for me is that CGI was once a very bad cult, worse in almost all ways than anything associated with the YRR. Their story of repentance is unusual (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Communion_International). I have not spent lots of time diving into CGI’s theological distinctives, but I have found the “You’re Included” interviews very helpful because they interview theologians from a variety of denominational backgrounds.
3) I’ve done lots of internet searches where I include the word “orthodox” in the search string. This has led me to some great perspectives from Eastern Orthodoxy (but their articles can be quite lengthy). Their theology has remained mostly free from the issues that have dogged Catholics and Protestants.
The potential answers are much broader than what Calvinists tell us.
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Jack wrote:
They don’t explain it. They offer lots of words, sophistry, flawgic, hand-waiving, and re-defining of terms, but they never actually articulate a consistent and clear explanation. And if you get an explanation that sound somewhat reasonable it will either be contradicted by other Calvinists or or by other Calvinist teachings. This is why it makes so little sense to try to argue with them.
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Velour wrote:
He is definitely preaching a different gospel!
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Bridget wrote:
Did you read the 9Marks link above, about “inside” and “outide” in the Bible and 9Marxists pathetic arguments to arrive at church membership as being *Biblical*?
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Ken F wrote:
Debating is not preaching the gospel. These guys spend more time arguing and defending aberrant theology, than being salt and light to a dying world.
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Max wrote:
Yep. Jesus didn’t include theological distinctives in his criteria for separating the sheep from the goats. “Lord, when did we see You ignorant, and browbeat you with Gospel truth, or see you in error, and discipline you?”
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Lydia wrote:
Or to buy them time while they complete Calvinization of the Southern Baptist Convention! SBC’s “Unity Committee” a few years ago essentially advised all dissenters concerned about the proliferation of reformed theology to sit down and shut up, agree to disagree, get along to go along, and make room under the big tent for the New Calvinists. History will show that this was a mistake, as the largest non-Calvinist Protestant denomination in America surrenders its identity for the sake of “unity.” It is not wrong to call for unity – after all, God commands the blessing to be where there is unity – but, New Calvinists are not unifiers they are dividers – they will do whatever is necessary for the sake of their movement.
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Ken F wrote:
I discovered some interesting scholars simply because Piper and gang branded them bad. It was akin to an endorsement to go check them out. :o)
Thanks for the links. I have read some Kruger and found him interesting but not enough to give any seasoned account.
The problem with Neo Cals and fundamentalism in general is that they brand scholars and theologians as if one has to agree on everything within their framework or they are totally bad. They don’t even give you a chance to explain what you don’t agree with! They just want to control the message. I can remember when they practically taught that Satan translated the TNIV!
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@ Velour:
Yep.
This was interesting
“In 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 Paul challenges the Corinthian church to judge those who are inside the church and leave judging outsiders to God. How did the Corinthians know who was in and who was out? They knew whom Paul was talking about because some people had formally, publicly identified themselves with the church in Corinth while the rest of the city had not. Those who had were inside the church. They were the church’s members. Those who hadn’t were not.” IX Marks
The members of the church in Corinth had formally, publicly identified themselves. Right.
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__
“Beloved?”
hmmm…
I do.
You’re fired.
We’re pregnant.
You have an illness.
huh?
Isn’t it amazing how just a few words can be so very life changing?
One phrase can turn our life upside down in a positive or negative way.
In an instant our life is transformed.
The same thing can happen from one word or one verse in Scripture.
One sentence can be used by the Holy Spirit to cause us to believe in Jesus Christ for the first time, to understand our identity, or to know God in a deeper way.
“Beloved” from 1 Peter 2:11 can be that one word …
What?
God sent His Son to redeem the world, but are we experiencing the reality that Christ died to save us personally?
Q. Can we rest in the knowledge that Christ was rejected for us, exiled for us, and died to save us?
And how would we live differently if we believed this?
ATB
Sopy
___
Reference:
“Defining Our Identity” – Rev. J. David Stephenson
Logos Bible software. http://www.logos.com
Inspirational relief: Hillsong- “Light Unto My Path”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4FWvRRufMIE
🙂
—
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Hi All,
Jeannette Altes, a long-time poster here on TWW, has been going through tough times (job loss, tumor and treatment, etc.). Her rent is due and she needs $520 to be donated.
Is there any way that 10 of us could donate $52 each to help her? (GoFundMe takes a little bit out). Rest of discussion to be over on the Open Discussion tab. (To the right on the screen.) http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp
Thank you.
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@ Ken F:
Baxter’s stuff is good, Ken. If you want to see his roots, read the works of his mentors, James B. torrance and Thomas F. Torrance. The latter is probably my favorite theologian of the past century.
It’s interesting the 180 that Grace Communion International (GCI) has done. They are the old Worldwide Church of God, founded by Herbert W. Armstrong. They repudiated Armstrong and embraced trinitarian theology. Although I think they have some growing to do, the “You’re Included” series has some very good people on it. All of them are disciples of Torrance, or Barth through Torrance. I find both GCI and the You’re Included folks very theologically refreshing.
I’d like to see my SBC embrace the Trinity (the full ramifications thereof, not just a lip-service point in a doctrinal statement). When God is viewed as an eternal communion of self-giving and other-centered persons, this whole narcissistic understanding of his “glory” in his “sovereignty” is blown to bits. The Neoplatonic “One” can no longer be mapped onto the triune Yahweh, as has been from Origen and Augustine, down through scholastic Reformed theology and the YRR.
Jim G.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
I shan’t diss a brie!
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Jim G. wrote:
Amen! We definitely could use more Holy Spirit in the mix! Southern Baptists don’t talk much about the Holy Spirit; they relegate him to the back pew and hope he doesn’t stir up anything. It’s as if they think the Holy Spirit is something that belongs in Pentecostal ranks and they don’t want it getting on them!
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@ Velour:
Thank you.
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@ Jeannette Altes:
Welcome!
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I was going to comment on here more today than I did, but my computer froze up and crashed awhile ago.
One thing I wanted to say about Calvinists. A lot of them have a lot of intellectual pride and snobbery. (They are the flip side of the coin from the anti-intellectual Independent Fundamentalist Baptists.)
One of my problems with Calvinism, or certain types of Calvinists (the ones who revere education and book reading) is that the faith itself is presented by Jesus as being so simple that a small child can grasp the essentials, and that’s all that is needed.
Jesus never said a person needs a 120 I.Q. and ten advanced college degrees to be his follower.
Apparently, you have to do a lot of reading or study to grasp Calvinism (maybe according to a lot of Calvinists.)
If God does not expect people to be very studios or book worms to accept the Gospel, why would Calvinists act like people have to be that way to be a Calvinist and/or a Calvinist Christian?
It’s as though some Calvinists add stipulations on to the faith that even Jesus did not.
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__
“Eight Years And Counting?”
hmmm…
9 Marks is apparently a place where the people involved are working very hard with other national Calvinist pastors for years to ‘cover’ (R) SGM founder Rev. C. J. Mahaney’s sin.
huh?
9 Marks is unfortunately a place where ‘disciplining’ ™ Rev. C. J. Mahaney for misconduct is simply not an option.
Why?
(sadface)
Sopy
__
Inspirational relief: “I am the way”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=49sOPi5JULs
—
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@ Jim G.:
Jim G. wrote:
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Not sure what happened with my comments. Sorry for glitch.
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Debi Calvet wrote:
I have a hard time believing in eternal torture whether God specifically created the evil to suffer it or they reject him on their own.
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As a Calvinist, I cringed while reading Menikoff’s article. The condescension is palpable. In addition to Wade Burlinson, I’d like to recommend yet again Michael Horton, particularly his book “For Calvinism.” Many here would be pleasantly surprised, even if not won over.
Yes, election is not the most important category in the Bible, and one’s view of it does not determine whether or not one is a believer, or even a so-called “smart” believer (oy!) However 1) It is a part of the Bible; 2) There are “hard sayings” in the Bible; 3) Sometimes these sayings involve election. May we agree on that? I’m not saying that, for instance, Rom. 9:6-23 should be isolated from the rest of Scripture and a doctrine formed from that alone. But it is part of God’s revelation, and no part of His revelation should be ignored. Neither should the passages that, at the least, seem to disagree with it. I write “seem” only because of our limited understanding and because I don’t think God contradicts Himself. Though I think the view of many of the Reformers (not just Calvin) were correct concerning election, I might, of course be wrong. I think it’s okay to have an opinion on it while keeping in mind that there is a lot that God has not revealed to us, and even some of what He has revealed might not be perfectly clear.
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@ siteseer:
I recently gave a message in favor of Conditional Immortality, or Conditionalism, which holds that hell is not forever, and that at some point the sufferer is annihilated. A good website to go to is Rethinking Hell. They published a helpful book under the same title. If you want an exhaustive treatment of the subject, read The Fire That Consumes, by Edward Fudge. He also wrote a much shorter book on the subject called Hell: A Final Word. There’s actually a fairly good movie about this guy, called Hell and Mr. Fudge. Finally, a book that defends the traditional view of hell against annihilation and other views is Hell Under Fire, ed. by Christopher Morgan and Robert Peterson.
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@ JeffB:
Some of us see the concept of election as corporate not individual. The Jews were identified as elect as in the people God chose to work through and be the light of the world. But that does not mean they chose God as we see in the OT.
Believers are elect because they chose to believe Jesus Christ, Jew and Gentile.
I think the terminology is misunderstood and misapplied. Romans is not about individual salvation but the whole Jew/Gentile dichotomy.
It really all boils down to the filters we use to read Scripture. If a determinist filter is used when reading then there is no free will in responding to the good news.
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Jim G. wrote:
Amen.
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@ Ken F:
I thought this debate had moved on to the Open section of TWW and I will be quite happy for my comment to be moved there if it’s thought appropriate.
My response to you Ken is that of a layman, a Christian and (probably) a Calvinist. I don’t plead special knowledge or privilege. The divisions in the Christ’s Church bamboozle me because in my own experience any church I have been a member of, is filled with people of many differing views. Those views don’t separate or divide us; we meet together, sing together, pray together, worship God together in Christ. We sometimes discuss our different views in Bible study but that’s about it. It doesn’t change how we feel about each other or how we treat each other. I’m sure there are many contributors here who can say the same thing and that is how it should be, in my opinion. My daily readings have just taken me into 1 Corinthians where the first question Paul asks is ” Is Christ divided?” Another post upthread mentions 1Corinthians 5 with a comment on how the Corinthians were being judgmental.
The so-called five points of Calvinism were a response to the five points of Arminius which were debated and rejected after an eight year debate in Dordrecht. The Canons of Dordt not only rejected Arminius’ points but also attempted to set out the positive beliefs of the Reformed church regarding those points. By and large the Reformed church has adhered to these points ever since although in recent years the number of churches or denominations who still adhere to the reformed Confessions and believe in the plenary Inspiration of Scripture has
decreased. You will see from this blog alone that Scripture is regularly lampooned as “Scribsher”, preachers called “Men of Gawd” and occasionally “God” himself posts a random thought. And that is where the problem seems to lie. We want to be God. We want to be able to explain His unexplainable ways, we sit in judgment of Him and what He does and how He does it. In short, we think we are better than we are. But we are not. We are sinners, none righteous, and we are saved by grace alone. How that happens is a mystery, but a mystery that has been revealed by the law, the prophets, the apostles, the Scriptures and supremely by Christ Himself, the Word made flesh. How we stand before God is a matter of love, as a commenter here said, but it is also a matter of soteriology. The two don’t stand in opposition to each other and the latter is not designed to confuse us. There are lots of things we don’t know or find difficult to reconcile but God knows. I might be a bit naive but I take Scripture as it is. If it says something I find hard to reconcile with my own view I try to find other verses to either explain or clarify what I’ve read. I pray about it, I discuss it with others.
As for election and preaching I don’t see how belief in the former hinders the effectiveness of the latter. Cornelis Pronk puts it nicely in his Sermons on the Canons of Dordt when he says “Do not ask, “Am I elect?” Ask rather, “Am I called and am I invited?” The answer to that question is an unqualified yes! You are called; you are invited; yes, you are summoned! God commands men everywhere to repent. He calls you to Himself. That fact should be sufficient cause for us to fall on our knees at His feet and not get up until He has saved us like Jacob, who clung to the Angel of the Covenant while wrestling with Him, and pleaded: “I will not let thee go, except thou bless me” (Gen. 32: 26).
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JeffB wrote:
Won over to what? I really don’t understand why you think anyone needs to be won over to what ever it is you think they might need. Is it Calvinism that you think people need? Not all, but most people here, are believers, so what besides Christ, do they need to be won over to?
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lowlandseer wrote:
It’s not? Do most people know what it means? Did God say that how we stand before Him is a matter of soteriology?
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lowlandseer wrote:
Let’s not forget that Dordt was a deck stacked by Calvinists who subsequently murdered some of the Arminians who went to debate their position. Calvin was a liar and murderer from the beginning, and his followers never strayed far from his path.
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Moderator, could you please delete my last post. Dordt was stacked with Calvinists, and they did unfairly treat the men who came to them, just as their followers label Arminians semi-Pelegians and heretics when we are, as Wesley said, “only a hair’s breadth from Calvinism”, but I can’t find sources to confirm my statement about how they treated the Arminians after the debate.
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Johan van Oldenbarnevelt was beheaded after siding with the Arminians against the Synod of Dordt. Whether that was the exact cause of his death though, I cannot determine.
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lowlandseer wrote:
That is quite an indictment. Is this who we are in Christ also – sinners none righteous? How does Paul refer to his brothers and sisters in Christ? Are you in Christ? For myself, I do not try to sit in judgment of God. I function as best I can with what I know. As far as I know, being in Christ, God loves me and does not view me as an unrighteous sinner. As far as I can tell, I am a new creature in Christ.
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JeffB wrote:
If any TWW readers elect to read Horton’s book, make sure you follow it with “Against Calvinism” by Roger Olson. They were written as companion books, with contrasting perspectives. Olson provides a scholarly challenge to the weaknesses of Calvinism as he addresses the underlying objective of this writing: “Calvinist theology has been debated and promoted for centuries … is it a theology that should last?” He speaks to the concern I have had about the proliferation of New Calvinism in the Generation X and Millennial generations in his final chapter: “I would like to persuade fellow Christians to avoid Calvinism, not because it will kill their faith or spirituality but because I want people to think better of God than Calvinism allows.” Essentially, he is emphasizing what Dave Hunt’s book title does “What Love Is This?” From the book cover “Roger Olson suggests that Calvinism, also commonly known as reformed theology, holds an unwarranted place in our list of accepted theologies.”
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Jason wrote:
I remember John MacArthur making that mistake at, IIRC, T4g 2008. Among the YRR enthusiasts this mistake is quite common. “Arminian” is synonymous with “deluded” or “man-centered” or “anti-nomian” or all kinds of bad things. They are not open to correction as it has become somewhat of a mantra. I’ve heard 4-pointers be dismissed as “Arminian.”
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…antinomian…An evergreen and multipurpose slur.
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Gram3 wrote:
Did John MacArthur believe it was a mistake, or did he mean every word of it? If it was a mistake, did he apologize?
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Lydia wrote:
Lydia, it continues to amaze me that reformed folks who pride themselves in their superior intellect miss this point entirely as they read Romans 9. It’s clear in the context of the whole passage that Paul is referring to national not personal election. Adrian Rogers booklet “Predestined to Hell? Absolutely Not!” provides the right perspective in this regard as he concludes “When you come to Jesus, you are predestined for heaven; but when you are born, you are never predestined to hell.” Heaven is populated by the whosoever wills working in tandem with the sovereignty of God for their salvation. As you note “Believers are elect because they chose to believe Jesus Christ, Jew and Gentile.” I keep praying for God to elect a bunch more – the days are short.
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@ Jason:
“Johan van Oldenbarnevelt was beheaded after siding with the Arminians against the Synod of Dordt. Whether that was the exact cause of his death though, I cannot determine.”
+++++++++++++
you don’t think that would have been enough?
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@ Jason:
The Victor’s write the official history.
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@ Gram3: Jesus called the Pharisees antinomian. Oh the irony. Jesus referred to them as lawless! Another reason I stay away from the current law/grace dichotomy everyone is into. Law is not always bad.
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@ Bridget:
I thought He said Repent and believe.
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Bridget wrote:
Bingo.
God even referred to some as righteous in the OT. It usually helps if people go back and read the OT passages Paul was referring to in Romans in their context such as the Psalms. Man lamenting to God in poetry.
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@ lowlandseer:
“You will see from this blog alone that Scripture is regularly lampooned as “Scribsher”, preachers called “Men of Gawd” and occasionally “God” himself posts a random thought. And that is where the problem seems to lie. We want to be God. We want to be able to explain His unexplainable ways, we sit in judgment of Him and what He does and how He does it. In short, we think we are better than we are.”
+++++++++++++++
on the contrary, I think we’re sick of others who wear Christian leader hats who seem to want to be God, seem threatened by Jesus’ popularity, insist that they are the privileged privy who know how to explain His unexplainable ways, and who clearly come across as thinking they are better than they are.
I think most of us are a bit annoyed with the variety of conflicting answers from which all manner of churches pick their favorite and insist it is the only right and true option.
I think most of us are ok with the fact that there are loads of unanswered questions, so why not focus on kindness and making the world & the earth a better, safer, healthier place because we were here.
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lowlandseer wrote:
Only two of these points concern me directly, but I will take the liberty of responding to them all as they are linked by context.
Point 1: “Scripture is regularly lampooned as ‘Scribsher’ “
It isn’t.
Scripture has never been lampooned on this blog in any comment that I have read in all the time I’ve been a regular here. Not all Wartburgers, regular or occasional, are Christians, and some atheist or agnostic commenters have questioned the value of the Bible just as one would expect them to, but even they have never – to my recollection – lampooned it.
The neologism “scribsher” is one of mine, as are its near-relatives “biblescriptures” and “biblescribshers” (together, incidentally, with “Deebs” and “Wartburgers” and the more recent “theoclergians”); I was also an early adopter of the ™ symbol as used ironically (as in “Biblical™”), though I’m not sure I was the first to use it.
“Scribsher” is not a parody of the Bible. It originated in the accent of a certain prominent then-Seattle-based motivational speaker and preacher, now disgraced but unrepentant and on the run from church discipline in Phoenix. And it parodies his (and others’) use of the word to claim that, while others make up their own beliefs to suit themselves, he does not; and/or that simply appending the adjective “biblical” to his words and deeds raises them above question and accountability. I continue to use it in recognition of the fact that neither I nor anybody else owns the Bible, and is my way of stating that when I quote it, I do not expect anybody to defer to me merely because I quote it.
Point 2: “preachers [are] called ‘Men of Gawd’ “
A few preachers have been, possibly, and a certain stereotype has certainly been. I believe this, too, is a parody of the idolisation of both the pulpit and the man behind it in some circles (which is, itself, a displacement of God).
Point 3: “…occasionally ‘God’ himself posts a random thought. And that is where the problem seems to lie. We want to be God”.
As all Wartburgers know, the Wartburger posting as “God” is me. And I can assure you I do this to inject good-natured humour, not because I want to be God. This is why “God” never makes portentous, doctrinal or apostolic pronouncements. At one point, some while ago now, Nancy2 asked “God” why “he” allows suffering. I did not reply to this, not because I don’t have a view on the place of suffering in God’s creation, nor because I refuse to ponder why an omnipotent God would choose to suffer, but because I refuse to put my views on this in God’s mouth.
It has always been the case that what is satirical humour to one man is alienating and offensive to another. I am sorry if I have offended you.
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@ elastigirl:
As I’m sure you’ve guessed, I was in the middle of writing the above thesis when you posted…
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Bridget wrote:
My impression is that he believed and intended to convey what he said. It did not make sense to me at the time that he would make such a mistake, but it is possible that anything other than the 5-point view is considered semi-Pelagian as a sort of shorthand. Not an accurate shorthand, however.
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Gram3 wrote:
I thought that would be your answer. No surprise on my part. According to some in the Reformed camp, if we are not with them, we are doomed.
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Lydia wrote:
That is what I recall. John the Baptist, Jesus, even Paul explained it in simple terms.
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lowlandseer wrote:
So you read the other TWW articles and posts and conveniently ripped the responses out of context? It wasn’t Scripture being lampooned but abusive, manipulative, money-hungry, power-hungry, authoritarian pastors. Jesus’ reserved His harshest criticisms for the same types of religious men. So does the Bible over and over again.
There’s innocent humor in why one of our posters occasionally posts a remark from “God.”
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
And I thank you Nick! Your comments were wonderful, cheered me up, made me laugh, and I understood them. And I’m across The Pond.
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lowlandseer wrote:
If God already knew in advance who was going to Heaven and Hell then there would be no need for Jesus’ death and resurrection, no need for the Cross.
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Velour wrote:
You’re more than welcome – I transcend The Pond, of course (drop in a bucket an’ a’ tha’)!
Best regards,
God
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JeffB wrote:
I identify with many on this site who do not classify themselves as “Calvinist” or “Arminian.” I believe the subject of free will/election is beyond the human mind’s ability to grasp. I note the passages that seem to state one position and those that seem to state the other- I have a long list of passages both pro and con that I have been adding to over many years, and I ponder these things at times. I can see why some land on one side of the debate and some on the other side. It’s something I find perplexing and intriguing on one hand but non-essential and divisive, on the other. Believing it is beyond the comprehension of the human brain, I very much appreciate your mindset of realizing you may be wrong. We should all have this attitude of appreciating how wrong we may be in our attempt to understand the difficult issues. It’s a subject that should never be put before the essentials of the faith- the person of Christ being first and then love, of God first and then of the brethren.
That being said, there is a great deal more to Calvinism than free will vs election. A great deal. And the current flavor of Calvinism, especially, has picked up an immense load of extra-biblical baggage. And the fruit is not good.
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JeffB wrote:
Interestingly, I found this site just the other day and have been reading it. There is a great deal of good information there, much to think on.
I feel that most of what people understand about hell comes not from the Bible but from paganism and extra-biblical teachings that crept into the church.
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@ God:
Many thanks!
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@ Max:
Yes, a lot of Rom 9-11 deals with Israelites and Gentiles, not individuals. But not all of it. Rom 9:1-5 concerns Israelites as a whole. It seems to me that starting with Rom 9:6, Paul is talking about individual Jews, the remnant, the children of the promise, who are saved. I don’t see how vss 15 and 16 can be talking about nations. Then he talks about Pharaoh, an individual.
There are people I respect who disagree or agree. This is how I see it.
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Bridget wrote:
I wrote that because I didn’t want to give the impression that I was trying to get people to take a Calvinist view, but it backfired. No, nobody *needs* Calvinism, as I think I made clear in my comment. But, just as there are different views of atonement, etc., there are different views of election. Also, that book would show that Calvinism is not only about election.
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Max wrote:
In the past, I’ve recommended both books, and I should have done so here. (I like “elect.”)
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I posted Ken F’s good list of questions about Calvinism (dated May 17th) and his links to websites (May 22nd) at the top of the page here under the Interesting tab, Books tab, etc.
for those who are interested in the work he has already done.
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@ siteseer:
I agree with everything in this comment and thank you for the kind words.
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siteseer wrote:
The view of some Greek philosophy that human beings are inherently immortal has, I think, a lot to do with the belief in an eternal hell.
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Ron Oommen wrote:
It’s a disagrace. Buying degrees instead of doing the hard work to get admitted to a good university and doing the hard work to earn a real Ph.D. Wanting accolades without work.
Then there’s other issues in the same vein – “pastors” from Mark Driscoll to Doug Wilson who have been caught plagiarizing other authors’ works in their own books because they couldn’t do the work themselves, obviously had nothing new to say.
Now all of these pastors, including my ex-NeoCalvinist pastor, self-publish books nearly every year or every few years. Why? There was a time when it was rare for any pastor to write a book. Now they’re all doing it. And most of it is incredibly shoddy.
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elastigirl wrote:
Nahhh… Cant’ have that. Too simple. Too straight forward.
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Muff Potter wrote:
Authoritarianism that the NeoCalvinists practice is the antithesis of kindness.
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JeffB wrote:
Actually, if you go back and read Exodus 9, which is the reference Paul is making, Pharaoh was indeed the one God says he could have destroyed with a plague for his crimes, but instead he made him stand/raised him up, so that his punishment would be a watchword to the surrounding nations. However Pharaoh wasn’t the sole perpetrator of the enslavement of the Hebrews and murder of their sons. That had been three generations of Pharaoh, and the Egyptian people themselves. Just as earlier Paul quotes Malachi referring to Jacob representing Israel, and Esau representing Edom, here Pharaoh represents the Egyptians, but also the Jewish leadership who had rejected Jesus.
Likewise in Romans 9:5-6 Paul is talking about a group, the believing Jews who are the faithful remnant of Israel, the ones who are obedient to God’s command. From verses 15-16, God’s word to Moses, which comes from Exodus 33, is God’s promise of faithfulness when Moses wants assurance that God’s presence would go with the Jewish people. In that culture (Pilch, Malina, The Handbook of Biblical Social Values) mercy was the payment of interpersonal obligation from a greater to a lesser within a covenant relationship. Semitic language often used parallelism and repetition for emphasis, so what God is telling Moses here is that he would most definitely fulfill his treaty obligations to the Israelites. It is a statement of God’s utter faithfulness to his treaty partners, not, as Calvinists interpret it, a statement of God’s whimsical and arbitrary selection of some for salvation.
And yes, judicial hardening does take place. Pharaoh was hardened because, after at least eighty years of enslaving and murdering Hebrews, Egypt was due some payback, and it wouldn’t have done for Pharaoh to give in before they were punished. The suggestion is that the Jewish leaders have also been hardened because of their rejection of Jesus, and persecution of the church.
Remember that the Jews didn’t have chapter and verse divisions like we do. The easiest way to bring a passage to mind was to quote a distinctive part of it so your listeners would recall it. Literate or illiterate, all Jewish boys had a lot of scripture memorized.
Isaiah 29, specifically verses 13-16, where Paul gets his comment about the pot making demands of the potter, God states outright that the people profess loyalty, but are disloyal, and their attempts to cover it up are futile because the potter knows what they’re really like.
Just as an aside, whenever you see Paul referring to human effort or exertion to merit God’s favour, it’s pretty obvious he has the keeping of the Mosaic law in mind. He is a Jew, after all. He contrasts the faithful who might (in the case of Jewish believers) keep the Mosaic law, with those who place their faith in their keeping of the Mosaic law as meriting righteousness with God. Paul says, “No. It is believing God that is accounted for righteousness,” and he goes all the way back to non-Jewish Abraham to prove it.
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Bridget wrote:
So I cannot figure it out. Why would Jesus tell all those people to “do” something he knew some of them would be “unable” to do? It seems rather cruel or deceitful.
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Muff Potter wrote:
People would be too independent, too. They might become responsible for their own choices and behavior which is basically free will.
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Lydia wrote:
Institutes Book 3:24:8
Basically the preaching of the gospel is so that those who are chosen by God to be saved can receive it, and those who are not so chosen can be more severely punished for rejecting it… even though they couldn’t have done otherwise.
I’m not sure I have anything nice to say about Calvin at this point, but then even a friend of his wryly observed that the only difference between Calvin and the Pope was that the Pope would at least have you strangled before burning you at the stake, so I guess I’m not alone in that.
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lowlandseer wrote:
Thanks for your response. I think the conversation that was moved to the open discussion was the part about “my denomination is better than your denomination” (but that conversation didn’t go anywhere on the thread either). The topic of this thread is the divisiveness of Calvinism, so I think my comment is very applicable for this topic.
The passage that has bothered me for years is John 17:22-23: “The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.” This is not the only passage in the Bible that speaks about Christian unity, but the fact that Jesus prayed about it makes it significant. The “church” has probably never been more divided in all of human history. So does this mean that Jesus’ prayer failed? Or does Christian unity mean something else? I don’t have a good answer for this yet, but I suspect that Christian unity is more than everyone either all jumping on the same bandwagon or else everyone politely agreeing to disagree.
One thing I do know is all the various types of Christianity have the same answer on how to achieve Christian unity: “Believe like we believe and act like we act.” It’s not possible for all of them to be right because they have contradictory views. I supposes it’s possible that all are wrong, but that would mean that Christianity completely failed. So I would think that some are closer to the truth than others. But who decides who is closer? And what are the important issues? I’m now thinking that Christians are dividing over the wrong issues. I’m certain that the early church was not perfect, but I am also thinking that they may be a model to look at. They seemed to be much more tolerant about many theological issues. But they stood hard against teachings about the nature of God (revealed as Father, Son, Spirit). They stood very hard against heresies such as gnosticism, modalism, etc. Is this a good model for us? I don’t know enough yet to make that call, but I do know that I want to read more from the early church fathers.
So back to Calvinism. My own personal experience with Calvinists is a rigidity and narrow-mindedness that excludes any possibility of unity unless you believe their five points and other associated “essentials” such as penal substitution. They leave you no room for discussion because they have become convinced that any departure from their essentials is apostasy. They either fight to the end or they completely avoid the topic so as not to offend. But the main point is there is very little possibility of civil discussion because they are so unwilling to consider alternative conclusions.
If you believe in penal substitution, I would be very glad if you could take a stab at the 18 questions I posted. I cannot get anyone who believes in penal substitution to answer them. Thanks.
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Jim G. wrote:
I have many books on my list to read. It’s hard to know where to start. Especially because I have a day job. Where is the best place to start with one of the Torrance brothers?
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Lydia wrote:
That seems to be one of the biggest problems. But I’m pretty sure I did my share to contribute to the problem. I’m trying to do better now.
Around 23 years ago I had a chance to meet up with an old college friend. I was excited to tell him about the old earth stuff I was learning from “Reasons to Believe” (Hugh Ross). He was genuinely afraid for my salvation. He urged me to read Ken Ham books so that I could get my theology right. And he warned me about a little leaven poisoning the whole loaf. It turned out that he was attending a “separationist” church that pretty much separated from everyone who did not fit their very narrow view of the Bible. We lost contact not long after that. It was a pretty shocking experience for me because I had never before felt such strong push back to what I thought was a pretty solid approach to understanding creation. But over the years I’ve had that experience more often than I would like. It’s unfortunate that meaningful dialogue has become so rare.
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Debi Calvet wrote:
When you are the “chosen one” then you can find joy. However, for those who are reprobated by God for nothing that they have done or didn’t do, joy is not a possibility. It is a hard-hearted belief system that posits God as being good in damning millions of people for His glory. Hence, the chosen ones must also find joy in the damning and torture of millions of people who were doomed from the beginning, otherwise they are rejecting an appreciation of God’s sovereignty and God’s glory.
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JeffB wrote:
I do to! It’s a great Bible word! In the red hot fire of good Gospel preaching, God is still electing folks who willingly come to the Savior!
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Jason wrote:
That gospel would not be good news of great joy for ALL people.
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Ken F wrote:
Maybe everyone who is called the church is not really the church.
One thing that impressed me in regard to unity was Corrie Ten Boom’s description of how all the Christians found each other and bonded together in the concentration camps, regardless of which tradition they had come from. The unity is there, perhaps, but not always visible under normal circumstances.
People come to this site from all corners of Christianity, one thing in common to many is we have been subject to abuse and it has played out strikingly the same. Authoritarianism is a problem common most denominations I’ve tried. I think people here are very civil and caring to one another though our beliefs on the non-essentials vary widely, and I think it’s a picture of unity in Christ.
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@ Jason:
Good words about Romans 9, Jason. Some of these guys have camped out in certain passages of Paul’s epistles for so long that they’ve lost sight of the big picture. I suggest to young Calvinists in my area that if they read Paul first, they might read Jesus wrong. But if they read Jesus first (the Gospels), the writings of Paul will come into perspective.
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Darlene wrote:
Darlene, I so agree with you. I personally believe that these kind of beliefs can twist a person’s own manner of loving away from what is natural because people tend to become like the god they believe in. There is such a cognitive dissonance when you say in one breath that God is love and in the next that he is ok with creating sentient beings to burn alive, with no hope of relief, forever. Does this kind of belief bring a person to the point where they rationalize cruelty in this life?
Like Anna Sewell wrote in Black Beauty, “cruelty is the trademark of the devil.”
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siteseer wrote:
That will preach!
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siteseer wrote:
Well said. That’s what I like about this site.
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Daisy wrote:
I loved this imagery, Daisy.
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Ken F wrote:
I found the Young Earth Creationism teaching by my ex-NeoCalvinist/9Marxist/John MacArthur-ite pastors/elders to be, frankly, idiotic. The Hebrew word “yom” in the creation story has some 58 different meanings, including “a long time”. Hebrew didn’t have that many words in Biblical times and the same words were used to convey different meanings and contexts. The YCCers never said that.
I came from a background of Presbyterians, including women, who worked on Nobel Prize-winning research teams including in the 1920’s. They never believed in Young Earth Creation and the matter was not even discussed in the Presbyterian Churches they went to.
Presbyterians seemed much more concerned about missions around the world (China and Africa), helping people, and other ways to be like Jesus.
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@ Muff Potter:
elastigirl wrote: “so why not focus on kindness and making the world & the earth a better, safer, healthier place because we were here.”
Muff wrote: “Nahhh… Cant’ have that. Too simple. Too straight forward.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
eliminates too many jobs in the professional Christian market
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Darlene wrote:
NeoCalvinists seem to believe this. I found to arrogant, hateful, and aborrhent at my ex-NeoCalvinist church.
Any expression of indviduality, Christian conscience, was met with threats by the pastors/elders, public humiliation after the Sunday church service before hundreds of church members (with the narrative completely controlled by the manipulative senior pastor speaking for himself and the rest of the equally arrogant yes-men elders/friends he’d surrounded himself with), and excommunication and shunning of dear saints. And we were never supposed to speak to that person again because they “weren’t one of us” (and we’re not even talking about affairs and moral failures, just some trumped up charge).
What’s the difference between the *Church* and The MOB, or some other criminal gang (Crips, Bloods, etc)?
I just despised it. So unlike Jesus. So immature. Even unbelievers conduct themselves with more common decency, kindness, manners, civility and brains!
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@ Jason:
Good stuff, Jason. My favorite Hebrew word is Hesed. It is incredible Gods patience and loving kindness, over time.
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after a careful reading of the original post, I still don’t get it how neo-Cals KNOW they are among ‘the Elect’
I mean it is possible, given their belief system that some are chosen before birth to go to hell and suffer forever,
and WHY do the neo-Cals feel that they are in the ‘Elect’ group and spared the fate of ‘the others’ upon whom they see as hell-bound to shore up the glory of God
???? In my Catholic mind, the word ‘arrogance’ comes and the thought ‘presumption’ when I think of folks who assertain the Mind of God will be the same as their own judgments of themselves and ‘the others’
where there is no humility, there can be no grace; and without grace, a soul can grow used to darkness unless the mercy of God intervenes to awaken that soul and point it to the good path of humility before the Lord
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@ Max:
JeffB wrote: (I like “elect.”)
Max wrote: “I do to! It’s a great Bible word! In the red hot fire of good Gospel preaching, God is still electing folks who willingly come to the Savior!”
+++++++++++++++++++++
I’ve had more than enough of this word.
aside from the painful, obnoxious associations, it’s entirely alienating to everyone except people steeped in Calvinist environments. been to church all my life, several different denominations — never heard it once. how much more alienating would it be to someone with no church background.
you can know God deeply, and never have a need for this word.
(sorry to be a little rain cloud, here)
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Am short on time but wanted to ask those of you who don’t necessarily adhere to meticulous sovereignty – In the course of events that arise in life what’s your criteria for determining what comes directly from God and what does not?
Also, I’m not here to argue theology or to change anyone’s mind as I’m okay with people who differ on this topic (have friends with beliefs all over the spectrum). Am more interested in the practical outcomes in one’s conversation with Jesus in day to day living.
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Ken F wrote:
I have wondered about this for years! I have often thought about the major divisions in the NT church: the Jew/Gentile problem. It is a constant theme in the NT.
Unity based on what in that scenario? I think it might have just been as simple as caring for one another. I think of Paul collecting for the suffering Jerusalem church. He would not shut up about it. And he is collecting from a lot of Gentiles!
Unity. They did not even know one another.
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@ Ken F:
Where are the 18 questions? Sorry to be thick but I missed that.
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Christiane wrote:
You should see the excommunication and shunning meetings that take place at these NeoCalvinist churches, I had the misfortune to be in one. Hundreds of church members get an email saying in advance of the church service that there will be a special meeting for members only and that the pastors/elders have something important to announce. Nobody is ever told what it is.
Then we all would stay. And there was some completely trumped up speech by the senior pastor maligning some dear saint – man or woman – one of us, one who’d been with us for years, some sweet person on some vile bunch of lies with no basis in fact. Not even affairs or anything. Just anything…
We were told how awful they were. To “call them to repent”, “to pursue them” to have “nothing to do with them”. The senior pastor would say how long they had “worked with [so and so] to no avail.” And he seemed angry when he was saying it, proud, pugnacious, snotty.
Hateful guy. Hateful pastors/elders. The most dishonest, unethical people. They know ZERO about Jesus. Liars one and all.
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Lydia wrote:
If you’re looking for Ken F’s questions, I posted them (dated May 22nd, I believe) at the top of the page here under the Interesting tab, then the Books, etc. tab.
I also copied Ken F’s links of resources on those topics over there (dated a few days later).
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@ Jason:
It’s not just his Doctrine that bothers me. It is the actual historical Calvin who I believe was a sociopathic monster. Just reading his letters should make that a tad bit more obvious to people!
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Ken F wrote:
The ‘unity’ Our Lord calls for here is a bond of the same love that is shared by the Persons of the Holy Trinity;
Christian people are invited into that love through Christ. The love that bonds the Holy Trinity is seen by my Church as the strongest force in the universe, the source of creation, the source of all that is good, and the Church recognizes that this love permits the diversity in the Trinity, while bonding it eternally
If there is any real unity in Our Lord’s Church, the Body of Christ with all of its diversity, then that unity can be and IS found in the kind of love that is self-giving, an unselfish sacrificial love that deeply wants only good for ‘the other’
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lowlandseer wrote:
Can you not understand what you are adhering to was nothing but church state politics? It wasn’t about truth ….but control.
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Lydia wrote:
You won’t get any argument from me on that. We all have a tendency to remake God in our own image. Calvin’s view of God tells you an awful lot about Calvin himself. Except for his most biased critics, people spoke highly of Arminius’s graciousness, even under fire. He held to toleration, that the magistrate should have no authority over matters of opinion, only over criminals.
John Calvin on the other hand… not so much. Sabastian Castellio, who was a friend of Calvin, said that, “If Christ himself came to Geneva, he would be crucified. For Geneva is not a place of Christian liberty. It is ruled by a new pope [John Calvin], but one who burns men alive while the pope at Rome strangles them first.”
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@ siteseer:
Ken F wrote: “The “church” has probably never been more divided in all of human history. So does this mean that Jesus’ prayer failed? Or does Christian unity mean something else? I don’t have a good answer for this yet, but I suspect that Christian unity is more than everyone either all jumping on the same bandwagon or else everyone politely agreeing to disagree.”
siteseer said: “One thing that impressed me in regard to unity was Corrie Ten Boom’s description of how all the Christians found each other and bonded together in the concentration camps, regardless of which tradition they had come from. The unity is there, perhaps, but not always visible under normal circumstances.
++++++++++++++
dang, the best discussion is often way at the end.
it’s divided over silly, petty, stupid stuff. like who gets to be first, who gets to be on top, who gets to have the power (you know who you are, pastors on a pedestal & you male “servant leaders” and female “submitters”). let it go already, why dont’cha.
like sprinkling or immersing and when and by whom — really? people make a stink about that??
like women having confidence and direct influence and the freedom to make decisions & be all they can be — yes, that really upsets God. 😐
and like so many other things that have nothing to do with ‘the glory of God’ and have everything to do with WHAT MAKES ME FEEL COMFORTABLE AND SECURE.
siteseer, you mention corrie ten boom’s description. I’ve often thought about these kinds of things. and I promise you that when a natural disaster hits, or alien invasion, or should one enter a time warp and find oneself on the Titanic in the middle of the Atlantic it won’t matter what a person’s secondary or tertiary Christian beliefs are, let alone their religion, gender, or sexual orientation. these mere window dressings will disappear, revealing ALL that we have in common as we pull together for the common good.
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elastigirl wrote:
wow, GREAT comment!
your thinking brings to mind, this:
““And I saw the river over which every soul must pass to reach the kingdom of heaven
and the name of that river was suffering:
and I saw a boat which carries souls across the river
and the name of that boat was love.”
(Saint John of the Cross)
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elastigirl wrote:
I think the same thing. I could not care less. I mean really…water? People are duking it out and writing papers and admonishing people…over water? Who cares?
Do they really think that Jesus cares about this stuff? Jesus who healed a man on the Sabbath and did all kinds of things to religious rules and to teach people that the royal law of love superseded rules.
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^correction: “Jesus who healed a man on the Sabbath and BROKE all kinds of religious rules”
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@ Jason:
Yes. He ruined his protege Castellio for daring to dissent. Banished him to poverty.
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Lydia wrote:
Any good reliable websites or books where I could learn more about this and other dastardly things Calvin did?
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Although it’s only Wikipedia their article on Sebastian Castellio gives some information on his sad experience.
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@ Jason:
Thank you.
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@ Velour:
The agnostic Austrian Jew, Stefan Zweig , wrote a book titled: The Right to Heresy.
It is about Castello.
http://neglectedbooks.com/?p=215
The weird thing about history of this period is that the church state archives did not really open up to many American researchers until after the world wars. There was an official history that many still quote today. But sifting through political documents, laws, council meetings, correspondence and such paints a different picture than what old Europe wanted us to see.
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@ Lydia:
Thanks, Lydia!
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siteseer wrote:
The one non-fiction book I have read the most times is *Grey is the Color of Hope* by Irina Ratushinskaya. (About once every 2 years for the last 20 years.)
http://www.amazon.com/Grey-Color-Hope-Irina-Ratushinskaya/dp/0679724478/
It is her account of the first year in the “political prisoner” zone of the Soviet Gulag after her arrest for “writing anti-Soviet poetry.” But really, it was for her work in monitoring human rights in the USSR and documenting the lack of Soviet adherence to the Helsinki Accords.
The women’s political prisoner zone varied from about a dozen to 20 women, all living in one house. Several were from Jewish or atheist backgrounds, the others from a wide range of Christian backgrounds: Russian Orthodox, Catholic or Uniate (Orthodox who follow the Pope), Pentecostal, and “Baptist” (which was often used as a catch-all term for everything else). Imagine living in a relatively confined space 24/7/365 — except when put into forced isolation or the hospital — and having to divide up the food, cooking, and chores, and having vigorous discussions about how to maintain dignity in the face of dehumanization and persecution by KGB and prison personnel. It really is an amazing journal … and it shows how they conducted dialog, ultimately encouraged freedom of conscience for each woman to decide as she would on critical issues facing them as individuals and especially as a group (such as going on hunger strikes in protest), and how they dealt with “moles” who sought to create discord.
Perhaps situations of such extreme marginalization and suffering from genuine persecution bring forth the highest common denominator for unity — and it is not denominations, but freedom in Christ. Also instructive is how this group as a community extended to all members the same respect, dignity, and freedom of conscience and choice — whether they were followers of Christ or not.
Read this engaging book with an eye to see how the Spirit works not merely despite differences, but through them, to bring interpersonal unity. Maybe unity is not so unexpected in situations where those who bring oppression do so by alternating between rules/conformity and unpredictability/chaos. It makes sense to me at least that the “liturgical rule” must be freedom to counteract the conformity, and trust of fellow community members to offer security in the midst of chaos.
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@ brad/futuristguy:
sounds like an amazing book.
what amazing resources are to be found here amongst the comments. things I would have never heard about otherwise.
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siteseer wrote:
I know what you mean, but I beg to differ slightly on the wording. I would phrase it thus:
one thing in common to many is that we have witnessed abuse at first hand
This might be an interesting and useful topic for discussion among Wartburgers, but a stumbling-block I’ve regularly come across is one of condescension that (in the UK at least) gets distracted down a rabbit-trail by the word “hurt”. As in, “Well, you must be part of a church and you’re wrong to consider yourself a “none”, but I suppose if You’veBeenHurt™ it’s understandable”.
The assumption, IOW, is that
IveBeenHurt™ and that this has made me poor and timid and hurt and frightened to be Hurt™ again;
My ecclesiology is therefore not an open-eyed searching of the scriptures in pursuit of a more accurate way of doing church than the exploded remnant of splinter-groups and denominations we have at the moment;
Nor do I refuse to accept the splintering of the church because I don’t find such a thing in scripture;
Nor do I refuse to accept the contrived “church/para-church” distinction because I don’t find such a thing in scripture;
Rather, it is all just a knee-jerk reaction because IveBeenHurt™
Comfortable, contented, denominationalised Christians call me “hurt”, that is, primarily to protect themselves from the uncomfortable – but painfully scriptural – challenge that my testimony presents to their habits.
This is the flip-side to the other tired old canard, YoureAngryAndBitter™, that is used by abusive leaders and their factions to marginalise those who are calling attention to their misdeeds.
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Ken F wrote:
There is no doubt that the American church at large is apostate – a great falling away from what is right would characterize much of what we see on the church landscape. Just read TWW!! Indeed, the word apostasy would best define the church age we are currently in. A.W. Tozer called it “Christless Christianity” … there’s not enough Christlikeness in pulpit and pew across America to set us apart from the world around us. But, not adhering to reformed theology is to blame. Calvinism has enough apostates of its own, particularly this New Calvinism with its “culturally-relevant” message which keeps lowering the moral bar by dragging just enough world into its ranks to still appear Christian.
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elastigirl wrote:
You can also go to the top of the page here, to the Interesting tab, Books, etc. tab, and
there are discussions there of interesting books, movies, etc.
I try to cut and paste posts of good recommendations over there so we all have it for future reference in one place.
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elastigirl wrote:
I meant that Max was clever when he wrote: “If any TWW readers elect to read Horton’s book, make sure you follow it with “Against Calvinism” by Roger Olson.”
But I do like the word.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
I so agree with this! It’s why I focus on right and wrong. I don’t get my feelings hurt over disagreements. But i will speak up when I see people treated unfairly, deceived on purpose, etc. Sunlight is always best in these situations. Truth is always important.
That does not mean I am “mad” or “bitter”, either. Sometimes it is like talking to middle schoolers who never grew up. They can only respond with emotional language to frame the issue so they can dismiss you.
I want those spiritually abused to be survivors not victims.
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Jason wrote:
A group consists of two or more people of any classification. A group is not a nation unless explicitly designated so. God chose individuals to be saved from a nation.
“From verses 15-16, God’s word to Moses, which comes from Exodus 33, is God’s promise of faithfulness when Moses wants assurance that God’s presence would go with the Jewish people. In that culture (Pilch, Malina, The Handbook of Biblical Social Values) mercy was the payment of interpersonal obligation from a greater to a lesser within a covenant relationship. Semitic language often used parallelism and repetition for emphasis, so what God is telling Moses here is that he would most definitely fulfill his treaty obligations to the Israelites. It is a statement of God’s utter faithfulness to his treaty partners, not, as Calvinists interpret it, a statement of God’s whimsical and arbitrary selection of some for salvation.”
Yes, Ex. 33:19 is God’s promise of faithfulness to the Jewish people. (I was wrong to write that it wasn’t.) However, it seems also to be a general description of God’s character, esp. when you compare the promise to its enactment in Ex. 34:5-6. Both mention the proclamation of His Name and then His compassion and graciousness, as if His Name first of all meant these qualities. (Later, in 34:7, He talks about His justice.)
“Pharaoh represents the Egyptians, but also the Jewish leadership who had rejected Jesus….The suggestion is that the Jewish leaders have also been hardened because of their rejection of Jesus, and persecution of the church.”
Please tell me where I can find this suggestion.
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JeffB wrote:
I heard somewhere that the word “harden” has the connotation of strengthening. It’s kind of related to the verse “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.” Here’s the idea of how it worked for Pharaoh: he absolutely did not want to let the people go, but the plagues started to freak him and and he started to lose heart. So God “strengthened” him to enable him to do what he really wanted to do. Had it not been for this supernatural “help” he would have given up too early and the people would attribute their deliverance to good negotiations rather than a miraculous intervention. Also, the text says that Pharaoh also hardened his own heart. And even after he finally relented, he changed his mind again to pursue the Israelites through the Red Sea, which proves he never really wanted them to go. I suppose it’s possible that the same thing could have happened with the Jewish leaders. Jesus remained silent during their examination of him because he could have so easily talked them out of it, which would have been a problem. So perhaps they needed “help” to do what they really wanted. It’s an interesting thought. I don’t remember where I first heard it.
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Lydia wrote:
I’ve never read any of Calvin’s letters. Where can one find them? Unless you mean The Institutes – I’ve read portions of that.
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Max wrote:
Max, I thought you were going to change that to “Dever Drivel” since Mark Driscoll doesn’t seem to be much of a Calvinist any longer. 😉
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@ JeffB:
I agree, it was clever.
I hate the word.
but i’d still bake you a pie.
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JeffB wrote:
Unsupported assertion. Paul was a member of a collective culture, writing to a collective culture, about corporate election for service. It is the believer in individual election for salvation who has to prove their case.
The broader context of Romans is Paul trying to sooth relations between Jewish and Gentile believers in the Roman church. In doing so he is trying to avoid insulting either side, so he is both recommending the Jews to their Gentile counterparts, explaining why it is a good thing to be Jewish, and at the same time encouraging the Jews to accept the Gentiles because God has also accepted them based on the same faith as Abraham.
JeffB wrote:
Try Romans 11. All of it. Don’t try to cherry-pick verses. There were no verse or chapter divisions in the first place.
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@ Darlene:
There is a site I book marked on my old laptop years ago that linked to quite a few of his letters. I liked it because the link outlined who the letter was written to and the date. I will try to find it.
Calvin wrote over 4000 letters in addition to everything else. They are a gold mine but tedious to slog through. But in them a line or two can be pivotal.
For example, long before Servetus comes to Geneva, Calvin writes a colleague that if Servetus ever comes to Geneva, he won’t leave alive. His burning was premeditated. And the fact there was no law for burning foreigners for heresy. They were usually banished.
We can also see that he actually colluded with a magisterial French Catholic on Servetus. Calvin hated him because Servetus had dared mark up his writings with what he thought was error and sent them to Calvin. (There is evidence they attended the same school in France at one time)
After the burning. Calvin whines like a school boy in a letter about how people were treating him. (I got the sense some lost respect for him)
The letters give us insight into his dark psyche. I will link when I find it. There are books you can buy with his letter compilations but the site I found years ago was free. And the letters not edited from what I could tell. I tend not to trust some sources on this. But that is just me.
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JeffB wrote:
I don’t really understand this. How was a Gentile “nation” designated in the NT? This seems like a way to make a group about individual salvation. Romans is just not about that. I can see where that is read into it. But then we run into serious problems concerning Gods character and attributes.
The historical backdrop of Romans helps understand the foundation of the letter and its need, I think. It seems to have been written around the time banished Jews were allowed to come back to Rome. This would include proselytes. This would cause problems with the Gentile churches in Rome. The Gentiles had little experience with Torah, too.
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
Thanks for the tip, Brad, I just ordered this book, looks like a good read!
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Good point, Nick. It’s not the hurt we’ve been subjected to, it’s that through our experiences, we’ve had our eyes opened to the inner workings. What has been seen cannot be unseen. I agree with all your points.
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Darlene wrote:
Yes, I forgot to do that. Thanks for the reminder! I forgot who came up with “Mahaney Marlakey” on TWW, but I borrowed it since it fits.
I need to check to see if Driscoll has any sermon podcasts posted. I’ve been wondering which direction he will go. He will have to come up with a “new” thing of some sort to recapture his market share of book sales.
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Jason wrote:
Castellio, having translated the Bible into French, was attacked in the preface of Calvin rival translation, the Bible de Geneve:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k108678p/f9.item.r=testament.zoom
“Car au lieu qu’un temps a esté’qu’il n’y auoit point de translation Françoise de l’Escripture, au moins qui meritast ce nom: maintenant Satan a trouué autant de translateurs qu’il y a d’esprits legers & oultrecuidez qui manient les Escriptures: & trouuera encores desormais de plus en plus, si Dieu n’y pouruoit par sa grace. Si on en demande quelque exemple, nous en produirons vn qui seruira pour plusieurs, c’est a scauoir la translation de la Bible Latine & Francoise en auant par Sebastian Chastillon, homme si bien cognu en ceste Eglise tant par son ingratitude & impudence, que par la peine qu’on a per due apres luy pour le reduire au bon chemin, que nous ferions conscience, non seulement de taire son nom (comme iusques ici nous auons fait) mais aussi de n’aduertir tous Chrestiens de se garder d’vn tel personnage, comme instrument choisi de Satan pour amuser tous esprits volages & indiscrets.”
“Satan has translators with lightweight and arrogant minds….such as Sebastian Castellio….silence him….warn all Christians to beware of such a character, the chosen instrument of Satan”
This, in a Bible? Sick.
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@ Jerome:
Sounds like the anti TNIV propaganda!
Good find. I feel like survivors of these evil leaders from history should be remembered and honored in some way. And we all say, never again.
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Jerome wrote:
My wife grew up speaking French, so I asked her to read the entire quote. She said the English translation is very mild compared to the actual French. She would have to do a little research to fairly translate it into English because we don’t have common English words that accurately capture the brutality of the character assassination. In France those words would currently be used by a prosecutor trying to convince a jury of the heinous crimes of the worst kind of offender.
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@ Ken F:
Wow! Yes, the men with power (or protected like Luther) in those days where brutal toward their detractors. I mean brutal.
Have you read any Luther? All women are only good for breeding (ok if she dies in childbirth, just get another woman) and Jews are satanic. The peasants should be wiped out for daring to rebel.
Some people make “men of their time arguments” for their words and behaviors. But I would have to believe the Holy Spirit was AWOL during that time to buy into such arguments.
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Lydia wrote:
Agreed. The Roman Empire was brutal. Yet somehow Jesus and the original apostles could never considered to be “men from their time” in the same way the Reformers were.
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…and further advice for Calvinists who want to have good relations across the Body. Remember that bigots hate you because they create easy categories in which to capture large groups of people. Terms like “Calvinista” and other ‘clever’ catch alls make it easy to dehumanize people and avoid thinking about ideas. You can find a lot of friends who will labor for the Lord across the divide of views on sovereignty and free will but when it comes to winning over bigots, as John Calvin said, “Good luck.”
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Velour wrote:
This is another piece of evidence that the NeoReformed are just a new iteration of Fundamentalism.
Does any other New Evangelical sub-group really believe a crash-course “pastors school” is adequate training to be a pastor of a church of more than 30 people?
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Lydia wrote:
You’ve probably seen “The Luther Insulter”? http://ergofabulous.org/luther/
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R2 wrote:
My former pastor was also a graduate of John MacArthur’s The Master’s Seminary and The Master’s College. It’s my opinion that it’s merely a franchisee-training ground to open up John MacArthur-ite brand church plants. It’s a money-making endeavor for the JMac schools and for the pastors who plant churches.
From what I’ve read from the people who escaped the JMac schools, the academics seemed inferior and use cultic mind-control of students, including by peers, constant monitoring, meetings, discipline, and threats of discipline.
Someone who couldn’t crack it at a real college or university, like my ex-pastor, had to buy his Ph.D. (He also claimed to all of us he was a teacher, had defended The Gospel before hostile liberals at a Southern California state university when he was taking classes to become a teacher. The State of California said they’ve never credentialed anyone with his name to teach.)
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@ siteseer:
Hee hee. Yes. Too funny!
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@ Just A. Christian:
You may want to do some historical reading on the person of Calvin and his behavior in Geneva. Would it be considered bigotry to fine and even imprison people for daring to disagree with you?
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Lydia wrote:
I believe he was a sociopath, too.
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@ Just A. Christian:
Wayhay – a drive-by!
😘
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Just A. Christian wrote:
Au contraire … I would suggest that term Calvinista came into being precisely because those who apparently coined the term spent a long time studying the movement and thinking about the ideas.
Below is an excerpt from a 2012 post I wrote about this term. For additional historical and linguistic background, see the link.
https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2012/12/06/calvinistas/
In the past few years, a militant, neo-Reformed theological presence within the conservative-evangelical-fundamentalist wings of the Western Church has made itself known. This has been in both the church and in culture. Some have referred to this movement as the “Calvinistas,” and for them, it holds a negative connotation. The term was coined late in the 2000 decade by Dee and Deb – originators of The Wartburg Watch blog – to describe this emerging movement that includes neo-Reformed theologians, pastors, church planters, etc.
[…]
TWW’s term Calvinistas is now used in a far wider context, especially among the spiritual abuse survivors’ community. But the most extensive investigations and documentations of the individuals and organizations involved are still found in the Calvinism/Calvinista category at TWW. But since the facilitators of that blog coined the term, it is important to consider their definition of it, found on the TWW Definitions subpage under their page called “The Basics.” So – here is their original definition of the term they created:
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Just A. Christian wrote:
Yeah, sort of like the time I’ve spent in Calvinistic churches where anyone who did not hold to exactly the 5-point formulation was sneered at as an “Arminian.” Or someone who did not follow all of the man-made rules and regulations or particular form of worship was derided as “Antinomian.”
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@ brad/futuristguy:
P.S. Since 2012 when I wrote that post, there has been some significant discussion about the use of terms like “Neo-Reformed” and “Neo-Calvinist” for this phenomenon. Neo-Reformed isn’t used so much anymore because of that discussion, and sometimes Neo-Calvinist/Neo-Puritan is used instead. More often we see “YRR” (Young, Restless, and Reformed) or “Neo-Cals” to distinguish the virulent form of this doctrinal system from the denominations and theological streams within the Reformed and Calvinist theologies that have centuries of tradition instead of the few decades the YRR/Neo-Cal/Calvinistas have.
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Just A. Christian wrote:
Or like saying that people who point out deficiencies in the behavior of certain self-anointed church leaders are accused of “hating authority.” Or people who object to almost anything having to do with the institutional church are dismissed as people who “do not love Christ’s bride. And you can’t love Christ if you do not love his bride.” Or any of the “Complementarians” who say that anyone who disagrees with them are “Feminists” who reject God’s good and beautiful design. I agree with you that these are really dehumanizing things to say about fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
I love the term Calvinistas. It describes the rabid, abusive YRR NeoCalvinists that so many of us have been exposed to, that have destroyed Christians’ reputations, friendships, marriages, families, and churches. That have harmed the name of Christ and The Gospel.
Just A. Christian says it’s a way to “dehumanize people and avoid thinking about ideas”….and how precisely would you classify this enormous amount of spiritual, psychological, and emotional abuse going on in their authoritarian, NeoCalvinist churches?
Isn’t that dehumanizing? Has Just A. Christian given any thought to that?
I’d use far worse terms to call these NeoCalvinist, rabid thugs than The Deebs used (Calvinista) and I think The Deebs were generous in their naming.
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Just A. Christian wrote:
I’m amused at the idea that ‘calvinista’ is dehumanizing!
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Lea wrote:
BTW, although I am not a calvinista, I am a proud maxinista!
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Lea wrote:
Well it obviously hit a nerve with a fan-boy NeoCalvinist who doesn’t want to think about the larger, dehumanization of millions of Christians who have been subjected to authoritarian NeoCalvinism.
Southern Baptists, who have gone NeoCalvinist in their teachings and the whole Comp nonsense, lost a whopping 200,000 living members last year – completely fed up with
these non-Baptist teachings. Those that fled include conservative Christians, elderly couples, marrieds, middle-aged folks, and singles. People are only going to stand for so much — and then they won’t.
Folks should close their wallets and refuse to fund these abuses.
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Just A. Christian wrote:
You don’t have to have a catchy term in order to capture large groups of people and dehumanize them AND avoid thinking about any of their ideas.
I see it done with the word “woman” on a regular basis.
Women called penis homes.
Women told that their husband needs to get them in line, or it will be done for them.
Women are to be conquered, colonized, planted.
Women are told to shut up on blog threads, when men making the same points of disagreement are allowed to continue.
Does that strike you as dehumanizing or do you find such is acceptable in the case of ‘women’?
.
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Velour wrote:
I think it hit a nerve because it’s girly. Girls = not human, ergo Calvinisita = Dehumanizing. I have cracked the code!
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Lea wrote:
Of course, the feminine ending “a”.
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elastigirl wrote:
Thanks. I like pumpkin.
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@ Jason:
I cede to you the point about Pharaoh and the Jewish leaders. I forgot about what it implies about that in Rom 11.
I would say that, in Rom 9-11, the relation between Jews and Gentiles is a subset of the major question: Has God failed in His promises to the Jews?
It seems to me that there are parts of Rom 9-11 that, even in context, must refer to individuals. For instance: “on us whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?” “I ask, then, has God rejected His people? Absolutely not! For I too am an Israelite…” “I magnify my ministry, if I can somehow make my own people jealous and save some of them.” Also, I don’t see how the olive tree branches cannot be individuals, some from the Jews, some from the Gentiles.
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@ Lydia:
It was not only some of the Reformers who were excessive in word and deed. Sir Thomas “The Man For All Seasons” More’s scatological ravings on Luther are not to be believed. I don’t recommend reading any of them on a full stomach. Also, St. Thomas had his own personal torture chamber, and it was not left unused.
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Just A. Christian wrote:
Kinda like referring to people here as bigots