Open Discussion Page

Most comment policies for the blog are in effect on this page as well. However, we will not monitor the length of comments (unless some wise guy plays a game), the direction of the discussions or the relevance of the discussions. The Deebs may or may not participate in the discussion, depending on busyness of the current posts. In other words, go for it. This page is subject to change as we work out the inevitable issues.

Please note that the usual restrictions on personal attacks and other rude behavior still apply here.

Update: 660 comments in 3 weeks. Not bad. Since infinite is a bad idea in how big a page can be on a web site I'm changing things so comments are split into pages of 500 per page. Nothing is gone. Just click on the link for older comments. (GBTC)

Comments

Open Discussion Page — 6,803 Comments

  1. Rebecca Lynn – you got the call every parents hates to get. My prayers are with you and your daughter. Our children, even when grown, still need our parenting. My children are adults and I still am mom to them and they still seek out my advice and wisdom on things. Other times they have to learn by life experience. My son had been through a very trying year. He told me last week “That growing up sucks”. I told him I agreed with him, but that it gets easier. I pray that this will be a time of both physical and spiritual healing for your daughter. Where ever you are located, rest assured that God knows. Your friends here at this blog will be supporting you in prayers. Please keep up updated on your daughter.

    God Bless.

  2. Rebecca i’m so sorry for what has happened and I pray that she will be ok. You seem like a good strong mom and she’s very blessed to have you in her life. Sometimes young people will never see what we see. I know I was young, foolish , and sheltered at one point in my young life. Unfortunately she is learning something that could have ended her life at a very young age and i’m so sorry for that for her and for you. I hope those responsible are prosecuted and I hope that restitution gets paid out for her medical bills along with pain and suffering. The scriptures talk about restitution to those who are wronged or harmed by others. Anyways i’m praying for your sweet girl and I hope she comes out stronger and with a stronger sense of discernment in who she brings into her circle. Maybe this might turn into a blessing for her after healing has occurred.

    Shauna & Billy

  3. Update: Billy’s school supplies oh my there are a lot to get as he just got his list of items yesterday from his teachers. I don’t get it why we have to pay for the teachers supplies, isn’t this what tax payers pay money for? For the teachers to have their own supplies? Since when did Kleenex, Expo Dry Erase Markers, and hand sanitizer become part of what my kid needs to learn? Second why does my son have to buy supplies for the teacher in order to receive Extra Credit? I’m already frustrated and because my son needs all the help he can get I caved in and got the markers for that extra credit! Anyways there are so many more supplies that I need to get Billy and I used up the funds on the gofundme for bills and that little bit (which was a lot to us) went so fast.

    English

    – 1 1/2 ” binder
    -5 count plastic dividers with pockets
    -Pencil bag that goes in binders
    -Loose leaf notebook paper
    -Pencils and erasers; mechanical pencils
    -Post-it notes
    -Kleenex for the classroom
    -Gmail account for the classroom
    -mini stapler

    Algerbra

    – P tsi Calculator $135.00 (WHAT??????) YES I was shocked
    – I bought a 20.00 one and I thought I was doing good.
    – 2 Composition books
    – 1″ binder
    – Red Pens
    – black/blue pens
    – Pencils mechanical ok
    – Spiral Notebook Grid paper
    – Kleneex
    – Hand Sanitizer
    – Expo dry erase Markers

    Intro to Engineering

    – Not sure yet!

    Reading
    – Not sure yet should find out today

    Biology

    – 3 ring binder
    – Composition book
    – Pencils/pens
    – Red correction Pens
    – Notebook paper
    – five folders with pockets
    – Kleneex
    – Dry erase markers
    – hand sanitizer

    Business Info Mgt

    – we don’t know yet his school just started yesterday.

    He isn’t doing any sports this semester in H.S. he has difficulty being in a locker room hopefully that will change.

    Billy has asked me if he could do gymnastics. We tried it out for a few nights and billy told me it helped relieve some of his anger(he has expressed that he’s angry and seeing his perpetrator frequently when he sleeps and wakes up lately) and that he felt good afterwards. Please pray for this as I believe it will be good therapy for him. The cost is 140.00 month to go 4xs a week, we can get it down to 79.00 for him to go 2xs a week if I can build up enough of an income to take care of that. I rounded off the numbers. I will have to look again on the exact amount but thats about what he will need if he wants to do gymnastics. This is a want not a necessity and if I could have recouped restitution from his perpetrators parents believe me I would have gladly done it! He left my son with a lifetime of dealing with this terrible act. Anyways please pray for him in this area it falls under luxury not a necessity.

    I got a job interview for next week, yaaaayyyyy

  4. @Marquis,

    Would Texas’ victim assistance fund (we have one in California) pay for things like Billy’s gymnastics? It’s worth a try. Maybe a school counselor with disability services could give an assist too with a plan.

  5. Velour wrote:

    @Marquis,

    Would Texas’ victim assistance fund (we have one in California) pay for things like Billy’s gymnastics? It’s worth a try. Maybe a school counselor with disability services could give an assist too with a plan.

    Man your an awesome source of information velour. I am going to check that out. Billy just got home from his second day of school. He walked in the door and told me a lot of girls hit on him at school today lol. He got his first assignment Project and it’s due next week. My sweet guy wants to get it done this week. Oh my gosh someone pick me up off the floor. He has in the past been the #1 procrastinator. He said one girl asked for his number but he told her he has to get to know her first , wow such a proud mama. They asked him what he likes in girls and he told some of them that he likes girls who love and respect their parents. I have always explained to billy that a girl who loves the Lord and honors her parents should be the two most important qualities. Anyways I just had to brag on billy for a second.

  6. @ marquis:

    Welcome for the info.

    Bravo about Billy! An answer to my prayers and the prayers for others for him for this year.

    He should tell the young ladies that he wants to go to college and become an engineer.
    Work designing safe oil rigs (wasn’t that it?). He should ask the young ladies about their college aspirations, areas of academic interest.

  7. Not sure exactly how this works. I have to get some information about Teen Challenge in the Ozarks – My son is there – they are supposed to have Wilderness Therapy and individual tutoring – Both of which I don’t see any of – Does anyone know anything about this

  8. Rita Morales wrote:

    Not sure exactly how this works. I have to get some information about Teen Challenge in the Ozarks – My son is there – they are supposed to have Wilderness Therapy and individual tutoring – Both of which I don’t see any of – Does anyone know anything about this

    Welcome, Rita.

    Someone who knows about Teen Challenge may show up and share what they know. Be patient.

    In the meantime, I have a couple of questions. Do you have a contract with them?
    What does it say? Is Teen Challenge licensed by any regulatory agency? Was your son
    also evaluated by a private family physician or other medical professional that your family sees?

  9. @ Rita Morales:
    Rita, I was just reading a scary story about one of these programs (not Teen Challenge). the one thing that would scare me as a parent is that in some of these contracts, parents have given all decision making authority to the organization, including health care decisions.

  10. Hi Rita,

    I don’t know anything about teen challenge however there are many stories of these bootcamps for kids where they came back with horror stories. There are some good places i’m sure that are well intended however when you interlope your child with strangers you are really rolling the dice. They can have a great reputation but you can get that once person who can do serious damage. If our children are not safe in the church or with church members with us there then it’s a big a leap to fully trust anyone with your child outside of your care.

    I am speaking from experience. My son was raped by a church members teenage son. I was friends with this family and knew their son. I never imagined that this would ever become my son’s nightmare and that my worst fears would come to life with my child. I say this with concern and from one parent to another no judgement. I hope your fears are subsided and that someone from there can put you at ease.

  11. Hi, I wanted to share with all of you something that brought me such peace and joy today. I had intended to do an ARD Meeting with my son’s teachers. Because Billy has struggled over the years in school I have found out how important these meetings are they contribute to Billy being successful and at the very least I get to meet the teachers who will spend more than 40 hours a week with him influencing and teaching him. As parents you all know how important it is that those in charge of our kids are firm with them yet sensitive to their needs as well. It’s a balance and obviously no one will love them like we do we just hope that they are treated with kindness, dignity, and respect.

    Well, in addition to this and because billy has new challenges such as the rape, ptsd, and the stutter he developed from the trauma of that rape I have met with all of his teachers to share what happened to billy. I wasn’t sure about this at first but then the more I thought about it how could I not equip them with such information. Billy experiences Anger, sadness at times, frustration , lack of sleep and so forth. These things are a direct result of that rape and there have been many days when he has not functioned well in the classroom. In fact there were days when he had outbursts that had nothing to do with the adults or children around him. It was the direct result of the trauma. The past few years in doing this his teachers have been kind, understanding, compassionate, and have worked with him. Rather than discipline him for things that were out of his control they were patient and offered help. He was able to go to his counselor at school or the vice principle and wind down. It turned out to be the best thing I could have ever done for billy and he was so brave to allow me to share that.

    Anyways today I decided to email all his teachers. It’s a little impersonal but because of their busy H.S. schedules I may not get the luxury of meeting with everyone at once before the year really kicks off. I decided to introduce myself and let them know how excited Billy has been to start H.S. my son came home yesterday telling me how great all his teachers are. I shared with them what happened to Billy and some of the additional challenges billy has with his ptsd and the stutter along with the trauma of the rape. I have heard back from three of his teachers thanking me for supporting Billy and were offering to be available for him if he needs someone to talk to or just help. One suggested Billy try out for student council and I agreed. Anyways I wanted to share how this has been a great day and I want to thank you for your prayers. I am just amazed at what He is doing in Billy’s life and for the help with keeping me on my feet until I get a more solid position for work. Thank you , thank you, thank you

  12. @ marquis:

    Wonderful update about Billy and his new school year, Marquis. Woo hoo.

    I think it would be great for Billy to run for Student Council, if it’s something he’d like to do.

    Good for you for being such a good Mama!

    Love, hugs, and prayers,

    Velour in California

  13. I have spent most of the day in bed. The pain pills make me sleepy and the anti-itch ones do to. The pain has been pretty bad. This stuff isn’t for wimps. We just finished supper, so I think I will go back and lay down again. Pain pills in me are making me very groggy and loopey, etc. Thanks again for your prayers.

  14. Harley wrote:

    I have spent most of the day in bed. The pain pills make me sleepy and the anti-itch ones do to. The pain has been pretty bad. This stuff isn’t for wimps. We just finished supper, so I think I will go back and lay down again. Pain pills in me are making me very groggy and loopey, etc. Thanks again for your prayers.

    Hi HARLEY,
    tell your doctor if the pain is too much and maybe he can prescribe some more appropriate, but I do know things after surgery are very difficult the first three or four days post-op. I was loopey on my pain meds too, and I wrote volumes for comments here and had to apologise when I realized what I was doing. Now no pain meds, but I still think I’m a bit loopey. 🙂
    Rest when you get sleepy. People here, myself included, will keep you in our prayers.

  15. Harley wrote:

    I have spent most of the day in bed. The pain pills make me sleepy and the anti-itch ones do to. The pain has been pretty bad. This stuff isn’t for wimps. We just finished supper, so I think I will go back and lay down again. Pain pills in me are making me very groggy and loopey, etc. Thanks again for your prayers.

    Hi Harley,

    I’m so sorry you are in pain that has got to be tuff. I am praying for you to get better soon and hopefully your doctor can do something to help.

  16. Harley wrote:

    I have spent most of the day in bed. The pain pills make me sleepy and the anti-itch ones do to. The pain has been pretty bad. This stuff isn’t for wimps. We just finished supper, so I think I will go back and lay down again. Pain pills in me are making me very groggy and loopey, etc. Thanks again for your prayers.

    Yes.Get your rest. Sorry you’re in so much pain, Harley.

  17. marquis wrote:

    It turned out to be the best thing I could have ever done for billy and he was so brave to allow me to share that.

    Yah! Billy is a great, strong guy.
    I am sorry that I am not in a position to help you financially. Things have been tight for us since aim had to resign from my job.
    Billy reminds me very much of a student I had who was abused by his half brother. This students safe place was in my classroom. On the last day of school, he told our assistant principal that if Mrs. Nancy2 was his mom, he be safe and know how to behave, and he would never be in trouble.
    There is now way you could have foreseen what that boy was going to do to Billy, and Billy is very much blessed to have you for a mom.

  18. Okay, folks.
    I’m ready to take the plunge.
    I’m ready to start making comments here that contain bold and italics and other such fun stuff.
    This has been discused before but I can’t remember where.
    So could a few of you helpful souls show me how to do it. This time I will be a better student and take notes.
    Thanks!

  19. Nancy2 wrote:

    marquis wrote:

    It turned out to be the best thing I could have ever done for billy and he was so brave to allow me to share that.

    Yah! Billy is a great, strong guy.
    I am sorry that I am not in a position to help you financially. Things have been tight for us since aim had to resign from my job.
    Billy reminds me very much of a student I had who was abused by his half brother. This students safe place was in my classroom. On the last day of school, he told our assistant principal that if Mrs. Nancy2 was his mom, he be safe and know how to behave, and he would never be in trouble.
    There is now way you could have foreseen what that boy was going to do to Billy, and Billy is very much blessed to have you for a mom.

    Thank you Nancy2 I appreciate your words so much. I feel like I should have forseen what was in store for Billy. If people knew how I lived my life before coming to LBC you would know that I literally remained recluse with him. I had two close friends and my life was Work (when I worked for GM), School ( I enrolled in college f/t), and my life was with Billy ( I spent every moment with him). When we came to Lakeside Bible Church I began to let others in to disciple me and billy, I partook in grow groups, serving in the church, I let billy go with other families in the church to activities, and I opened billy up to the perpetrator and his parents. I was good friends with both parents for two years and I couldn’t see what their son was nor had i ever dreamed of thinking that a teenager who we knew in our church would even do such a horrible thing. That he would do it with me in the house it was so violent. I am even afraid of what might have happened had billy screamed and I had not walked in there. His perpetrator had no time to react (I believe that was a blessing to me and billy). His violence was pure evil and when perps are in fear of being caught they commit the most horrible crimes. I thought that after time had passed some I would not wish that I had seen but to be honest Nancy2 I wish on a regular basis that I could have seen should have seen. Maybe one day it won’t be that way but I still get a knot in my throat and tears well up at how this has changed my life. I have watched my son go through the pain and I desperately want to erase the memories but I can’t even do it for myself. I can’t get out of my mind him being sodomized or being forced to perform sexual acts it literally takes my breath away and my heart feels like it can’t take much more. I know others have suffered greatly and suffer now as I have and even more so as abuse has occurred more frequently for their children. I must confess is that once is just as worse as if it had happened 1,000 times to billy. I have found that coming here to talk about the hard stuff has been a place of healing for me. People don’t want to hear about Sexual Abuse nor do they want to offer comfort because it is very uncomfortable. Time and having Jesus at my side will be the only thing that ever heals the ache I have inside my stomach and coming here to TWW is what He has used to help my forever aching over billy’s rape. Please be patient with me as I share here. Be joyful for billy because although he has some issues with God I know that it’s a spiritual battle for him and the blood of Christ will prevail. These strides he’s making in healing and with school are huge for billy. I want you all to know that God is working even when billy seems to reject him. I can’t even get billy into a church nor do I want to force him. I want billy to come back to Jesus on his own because he knows that Jesus is the one who is carrying him. Billy I believe loves Jesus but I also know there’s a spiritual battle over my son. I guess Billy feels like an injustice occurred just as worse as the rape by the church and he wants his voice to be heard he wants his name restored. I can’t say that I blame him and I am wanting it for him. Whether Ken ever makes right the wrong he and the elders have done to billy and me doesn’t matter. What matters is that either through a court or the weight of public outcry he just does what is right by billy! On a lighter note I wanted to share with some of you the emails i’m getting from Billy’s teachers. This brings me joy to know that they are excited to have billy in their classrooms.

    Good Morning Ms. xxxxx,

    Thank you for reaching out to me. Billy has been an absolute delight to have in class thus far. He is an active participant in class discussions and I can tell he wants to succeed.

    I appreciate you letting me know about his past. I am confident that he will do just fine in my class.

    Please let me know if you have any other questions or concerns.

    Billy is so excited to learn! I truly appreciate his enthusiasm. He has missed no assignments. The summer reading was assigned in May and he received a form from 8th grade teachers. It was on the school website this summer. We count it as extra credit because it has become a Herculean task trying to assess a fair grade to all. New students receive it when the register.
    The signature scoop sheet is the info page you and Billy filled out and signed (have not gone through to see which are missing–collected yesterday and today). Also– a bonus 100 for those who fill out and send in the next day or so. I do not do that often but trying to get the work ethic and positivity rolling!
    I am truly sorry for what you all have gone through as a family. It does help to be aware as a teacher.
    Please email any time and if you need to speak on the phone, let me know, and we can talk during my afternoon conference period or during the evening.

    Thanks so much for sharing Ms. xxxxx. I am thrilled to hear that Billy is excited about high school. We are glad to have him here. I will certainly take into consideration all he has been through. I will also encourage him to try Student Council, I am currently the advisor. Any time you have questions or concerns, do not hesitate to contact me.

    Your support is greatly appreciated. I’m glad to have Billy as a student and I’m confident this will be a good year.

    These are just some of the responses from Billy’s teachers, i’m excited and looking forward to him having a great year. Today I got a call for a house to clean which will help pay for some immediate needs please pray more come in as I still need to buy food, gas, and essentials for me and billy. Any funds that come through the gofundme are used for utilities , rent, phone, insurance, and other bills that must be paid before the end of the month as new bills come in. I am so excited to have a house to clean today…… I will also spend two hours this evening feeding over thirty horses possibly in the rain but certainly in the mud. It is still in the high ninety’s and the humidity is crazy. Please remember me in your prayers that my attitude will be in good spirits in that work is better than no work at all. Thank you all of you and Nancy2 no worries about helping financially I know there are many many who are in much greater need than us. MY prayer is to do for someone else as soon as i’m on my feet as those of you are doing for me and billy. Muah Muah Muah to all of you here and to Dee. She is an amazing friend and comforter.

  20. @ marquis:

    Great update. I’ve been praying for Billy every day and for a good school year. And we’ve al been praying for him.

    And for you too.

    Love and hugs,

    Velour in California

  21. @nmgirl,

    I don’t know if you’ve been reading here. I just want you to know that I’ve been praying for you every day and thinking about you.

    Love,
    Velour

  22. Hi Harley,

    If you’re checking in, I just wanted to let you know that we’re all continuing to pray for you post-surgery with the pain, medicines, etc.

    Please continue to get your rest and don’t overdue anything.

    We are also praying for your husband who is taking care of you.

    Love,

    Velour

  23. Hi, all. Here is the latest status.
    It’s been a rough week. Working on getting the health progress back in balance. It is – just not as quickly as I would like. And today, I am just hurting a little, both physically and emotionally. And that’s the nature of this earth life.
    One of you kindly sent me some links and info about potential online work. Thank you. I am looking into those.
    I have had food and gas through this week. Immediate needs are the usual suspects: food and gas for the next couple of weeks and rent ($565).
    You guys are truly amazing. Again, thinking what you all have done for me through all this time makes me cry. Thank you so so much.

    http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

  24. Mara wrote:

    Okay, folks.
    I’m ready to take the plunge.
    I’m ready to start making comments here that contain bold and italics and other such fun stuff.
    This has been discused before but I can’t remember where.
    So could a few of you helpful souls show me how to do it. This time I will be a better student and take notes.
    Thanks!

    Hi Mara. I’m not very good with this version of it, but I can do bold and italics.
    i don’t do well with written instructions, so I am going show you how to key it in by putting a ? between the characters.

    To do italics: Mara
    When I key it in leaving out the?: Mara

    To do bold: Mara
    Without ? : Mara
    So, enclose either “em” or “strong” in arrows: , in the arrows after em or strong, put a “/ ” before em or strong.

    Now, I’m going to feel silly if this comes out wrong! ; ^ >

  25. @ Nancy2:
    Wow. That didn’t even show what I did with the ? !!!! I hope the discription below is enough to help!

    For italics, put “em” inside of the set of arrows “” , then type your word, phrase, etc. After you type the section you wish to have in italics, close by putting “/em” inside of the arrows “”. Pay attention to the direction of the slash: not \ , must be /
    For bold, do,the same thing, only use “strong” instead of “em”.

  26. Velour wrote:

    @ marquis:

    Great update. I’ve been praying for Billy every day and for a good school year. And we’ve al been praying for him.

    And for you too.

    Love and hugs,

    Velour in California

    Hi Velour thank you so much and to everyone here for your prayers. Love, love, love you from Texas!!! Would you continue to pray for me in my search for a job that will fit billy’s schedule. It is so important that I be here. Billy has been influenced in a big way by what he is being taught in school. A lot of it is how he views God after his assault. Anyways God is bigger and stronger than the influences in my son’s life that are not in my control. I need to be able to work in his counseling and be here to help him with school but also make a living. I also think it’s going to be crucial in these next few years to be present when billy comes home. He has been fortunate to have me here everyday with him and be able to take him to work with me when I have had to. I believe it has protected Billy from so much. A lot of mothers have to leave their children home alone for long periods of time. I have worked it to where I don’t have to do that. I think this has contributed to billy’s emotional and spiritual well being as well as physical to have mom around. Billy never go’s a night without a home cooked meal (this has been an incredible blessing to me as I pour my love into cooking for him). I am giving billy hopefully the things I did not grow up with and I don’t mean material things. I lived a very blessed life but I was abandoned by my parents at 11 years old. Someday I will share my story. My store is like many others and i’m no different than the rest. What I can tell you is that God brought loving Christians in my life at the moment I was abandoned who took me in. I was raised by five christian families and I lived at a christian camp and served as they took turns caring for me. I was a little mother to my younger brother and sister. I think my experience caring for them taught me so much in spite of my parents ( I care for my parents and carry no ill feelings towards them they did the best they could with what they knew how)however it was where I learned the love of Christ through these families who took in a little girl who had no one. I could have ended up so many places and foster care was one of them. I was left vulnerable so many times. I think this is why I am the way I am with billy. I believe God prepared me for what I was going to face today and what happened to billy. I share this because I want you to know that as I look back I see the hand of God on my life and billy’s. His hand was on my life as a child. I ask myself so many times how is it that I got into the hands of Christians and my brothers and sisters didn’t? There are seven of us. This is just a little tid bit about me and why it means so much to me what you have done and are doing for my son. I see the hand of God reaching out through His bride and I am completely humbled and in awe sometimes and sometimes I just don’t have words. So with all that said and i’m going to cut it out with the mushy business I want to give all of you big hugs and loves from Texas Billy & Shauna. I want you to get to know us as we really want to get to know all of you.

    I’m still working on repaying my landlady the balance that keeps adding up with the increase in rent and water bill.

    My car insurance is coming due in a few days

    We are still working on billy’s school supplies. I got most of them but still have a ways to go.

    A generous family here on TWW is sending billy sample clothing (wow, wow, wow)

    we still need to buy groceries for the month. Billy has asked for me to make his lunch each day he said the food is not good since they changed the menu due to the new lunch program. So i’m praying that I will be able to do this. Billy eats a lot of fruits, cheeses , sandwhiches, and veggies. Go figure my kid likes the simple stuff. I cook whole foods every night. We do not do any processed foods or boxed foods. I buy fresh I think it cuts down on my bill by a lot. I think its a better way to eat and it saves me a lot of money. Pray for me in this area that I utilize whatever I have and be wise with it.

    Billy is doing student council and although I think gymnastics would be good I believe God just replaced it with something better suited for billy and it’s free. He gets to serve other students and it will look great on his transcripts when he’s ready to apply for college. My thinking on this is that sometimes the things we want are not the things that we always need.

    Velour thank you also for always reposting the gofundme it does make a difference when you do that. Whether it’s others praying for us or putting anything on there Big hugs to you from us in Texas.

    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

  27. I think I am semi back to the land of the living today. This has been a rough few days for me. I so appreciate all the prayers sent up for me. I know they’ve made a difference. Believe me when I say I’m not over doing it. Hubby is outside mowing the lawn and I have to find the pain pills or get him to give me one. This is a hard way to lose weight though. Sleeping all day then not eating much at all. It’s not a diet I recommend going on at all.

  28. @ marquis:

    Hi Marquis,

    Thank you so much for the long and detailed post about your and Billy’s life in Texas.
    I enjoyed reading it.

    So good the way that people have stepped up to help with tangible things for Billy and you, and of course PRAYERS!

    You should check in with Dee and see if there’s a way to update your GoFundMe account with your current needs. Jeannette Altes does that with hers.

    Big hugs back from California,

    Velour

  29. Harley wrote:

    I think I am semi back to the land of the living today. This has been a rough few days for me. I so appreciate all the prayers sent up for me. I know they’ve made a difference. Believe me when I say I’m not over doing it. Hubby is outside mowing the lawn and I have to find the pain pills or get him to give me one. This is a hard way to lose weight though. Sleeping all day then not eating much at all. It’s not a diet I recommend going on at all.

    Hi Harley,

    Thanks for dropping by to give us all your update. We will continue to pray for you regarding your pain level and healing.

    No, the not eating part…that is no fun either and no way to get a girlish figure.

    I hope you get your next dose of pain medicine and some more rest. Hopefully the pain will lessen in the coming days as your foot heals.

    Love and hugs,

    Velour from California

  30. Sure velour sorry I know that was detailed I hadn’t written many updates on here lately with the exception of my recent ones. I do need to get with Dee but was waiting until she was back and had the time to focus on that. I didn’t want to intrude on what she has going on in her life right now. I will do that though and try to get with her.

  31. @ Nancy2:
    The arrows in question are the greater than and less than signs.

    I’m going to try a few ways of indicating them to see if it works out.
    < and >
    …or…

    So…
    <em>This will be in italics</em>
    Should produce:
    This will be in italics

  32. For those who wish to know my sorcery, you can write the greater than and less than signs by using what is called an HTML entity. This consists of an ampersand followed by either the letters lt or gt followed by a semicolon.

    <And that is that>

  33. marquis wrote:

    Sure velour sorry I know that was detailed I hadn’t written many updates on here lately with the exception of my recent ones. I do need to get with Dee but was waiting until she was back and had the time to focus on that. I didn’t want to intrude on what she has going on in her life right now. I will do that though and try to get with her.

    Oh, I completely understand, Marquis. Good thinking.

  34. Finally, if you want to use the <strong>bold</strong> or <em>italics</em> codes, type the less than and greater than symbols directly into your post. The entity notation, with ampersand, code, and semicolon as I described above, is only required if you wish to have a < or > appear in your post (if typed directly, those signs will be interpreted as formatting codes and will become invisible).

  35. Nancy2 wrote:

    Mara wrote:
    Okay, folks.
    I’m ready to take the plunge.
    I’m ready to start making comments here that contain bold and italics and other such fun stuff.
    This has been discused before but I can’t remember where.
    So could a few of you helpful souls show me how to do it. This time I will be a better student and take notes.
    Thanks!
    Hi Mara. I’m not very good with this version of it, but I can do bold and italics.
    i don’t do well with written instructions, so I am going show you how to key it in by putting a ? between the characters.
    To do italics: Mara
    When I key it in leaving out the?: Mara
    To do bold: Mara
    Without ? : Mara
    So, enclose either “em” or “strong” in arrows: , in the arrows after em or strong, put a “/ ” before em or strong.
    Now, I’m going to feel silly if this comes out wrong! ; ^ >

    Thanks so much for that Nancy2
    Let’s see if that worked.

  36. jcv wrote:

    (Oddly, despite holding to this doctrine, he just gave excellent teaching, emphasizing the if we are eternally condemned, it is by our choice, not God’s).

    Calvinists double-speak when they say this. They say that it truly is our choice, but we are so totally depraved and God-hating in our unredeemed state that we will “freely” chose to reject God with 100% certainty. It’s only God’s choosing to give grace that anyone would “freely” choose (with 100% certainty) to believe him. What they mean by “free choice” is not what most people mean by it.

  37. Hi NMGirl,

    I left this info for Marquis, but the same applies to you. Warren Buffet and his sister Doris give away hundreds of millions of dollars to people in need. They are accepting letters right now. They also pay for services, of people who are approved in their communities.

    I think you should write them about your roof. It can’t hurt. Get some bids, if you don’t have them already. And copy them and submit them with your letter.

    Also don’t forget to apply for Christmas in April. The organization has been renamed and it’s above in another post I made to you. They are a national volunteer group that does these home improvements so people can stay in their homes. Please think about applying.

    I just saw this article that Warren Buffet and his sister Doris are accepting
    letters from people who would like help paying bills, etc.

    I don’t know your details (where you live, etc.). I think that you should write
    Doris Buffett at the Boston, MA address and ask for help. It can’t hurt. Send documents.
    Explain your situation.

    http://time.com/money/4452542/warren-buffett-doris-buffett-charity-sunshine-foundation/
    Their requirements:
    1. “*Include your name, birthday, return mailing address, and email address.
    If writing to ask for help the more details the better.
    2. After receiving your letter, we will send an email directing you to an ID authentication process. This includes taking a high quality photo of the front and back of your government issued ID or driver’s license on your smart phone.
    Mail your letter and supporting documents to:
    Ms. Doris Buffett
    Letters Foundation
    292 Newbury Street, Suite 503
    Boston, MA 02115

  38. Mara wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:
    Mara wrote:
    Okay, folks.
    I’m ready to take the plunge.
    I’m ready to start making comments here that contain bold and italics and other such fun stuff.
    This has been discused before but I can’t remember where.
    So could a few of you helpful souls show me how to do it. This time I will be a better student and take notes.
    Thanks!
    Hi Mara. I’m not very good with this version of it, but I can do bold and italics.
    i don’t do well with written instructions, so I am going show you how to key it in by putting a ? between the characters.
    To do italics: Mara
    When I key it in leaving out the?: Mara
    To do bold: Mara
    Without ? : Mara
    So, enclose either “em” or “strong” in arrows: , in the arrows after em or strong, put a “/ ” before em or strong.
    Now, I’m going to feel silly if this comes out wrong! ; ^ >
    Thanks so much for that Nancy2
    Let’s see if that worked.

    Refugee also typed up the various instructions on this in a comment in Sept. 2015.
    I saved it at the top of the page here under the Interesting tab, Books/Movies/etc.
    tab.

    “Refugee’s helpful instructions for those who would like to bold and italicize on The Wartburg Watch.
    refugee UNITED STATES on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 04:55 PM said:
    Janet Varin wrote:
    (I capitalized the last paragraph because I don’t know how to modify the font on these comments.)
    Janet, just fyi
    When you highlight some text and quote it, look at how it appears in the comment box before you post. See the [blockquote] and [/blockquote] bracketing the text? The principle is the same for bold and italicized text.
    You italicize by typing a less-than-sign, followed by the letters em, followed by a greater-than sign.
    Then type the text. Then close the special font (see next line).
    To close, you type a less-than-sign, a slash that goes from lower left to upper right, then the letters em, then the greater-than-sign.
    It would look something like this (if it works in this medium)
    I am going to quote with [em]italicized text[/em] and everything else will be normal text.
    To bold, you simply put the word strong in place of (in the italics instructions) the letters em.
    I am going to emphasize with [strong]bold text[/strong] and everything else will be as usual.
    Just replace the square brackets with angle brackets (less-than and greater-than symbols). And don’t forget to close the special text, or *everything* that follows will be bolded and/or italicized. It can be tricky.
    Hope this helps.”

  39. Josh wrote:

    The arrows in question are the greater than and less than signs.

    I know – I have a math degree, but most people I’ve crossed paths with outside of the math world refer to them as the “arrow” keys.

  40. Nancy2 wrote:

    I know – I have a math degree, but most people I’ve crossed paths with outside of the math world refer to them as the “arrow” keys.

    I always thought of “arrow keys” as a shorthand term for the more properly termed “directional keypad.” That’s what I get for being a computer junkie from the ripe young age of fiveish. 😮

  41. Spell Casters

    Sorry bout that folks. Normally we catch them before they ever show up as a comment. So I just tightened up our moderation a bit.

    No back to our regularly unscheduled discussion.

  42. GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:

    Spell Casters
    Sorry bout that folks. Normally we catch them before they ever show up as a comment. So I just tightened up our moderation a bit.
    No back to our regularly unscheduled discussion.

    Thanks GBTC!

  43. @ Muff Potter:
    Do NOT go down this road. All it will do is create a bunch of moderation work for us. If you want to know, Google or Bing will find lots of references for you.

  44. Nancy2 wrote:

    most people I’ve crossed paths with outside of the math world refer to them as the “arrow” keys.

    Really??

    really

  45. Lea wrote:

    Really??
    really

    1) I live in a rural area.
    2) I used to teach grades 7-12 math.
    Yeah, really. I’ve heard a middle school key boarding teacher refer to them as “arrow” keys in front of her class!

  46. Nancy2 wrote:

    I’ve heard a middle school key boarding teacher refer to them as “arrow” keys in front of her class!

    But your keyboard has actual arrow keys!!! They are between the letters and the little number pad. So that would confuse me a lot.

  47. Lea wrote:

    But your keyboard has actual arrow keys!!! They are between the letters and the little number pad. So that would confuse me a lot.

    Try teaching math to a group of adolescents that come to your class directly after keyboarding!
    “Those things Miss ###### calls arrow keys?”

  48. Please keep our friend Julie Ann, at Spiritual Sounding Board, in your prayers these next few days. She had a hysterectomy today. She said she would probably be in the hospital a few days, as it was done externally. I myself have had an internal hysterectomy done, and that’s no piece of cake either. When I was getting ready to have my surgery, I wanted to throw a party. I was so glad to done with all my terrible female problems. I’m sure Julie Ann feels the same way. Rest and recuperate first Julie Ann, then throw yourself a much deserved party.

  49. Just an update and hopefully this doesn’t get overshadowed or lost in the mix : )I just told the place where I take care of the horses that I need to step back from feeding. Last night I got home at 9:30pm billy needed me here and needed help with his school work. I have offered to stay on and feed once a day although I will really be working for pennies because it’s 1 1/2 hours of physical work and I have to travel 16 miles round trip while getting 8.25 an hour. In a weeks time before taxes I will have earned 86.59 after seven days of feeding 2xs s day. After taxes it drops to about 68.00. After gas which will be about thirty bucks a week, so I will have made 38.00 take home, wow it puts it into perspective for me i’m making about .27 cents an hour take home after taxes and gas.

    So, regular monthly bills are coming due this week I have a job interview this week and will be doing clerical testing tomorrow so I can apply for county jobs. Please pray for this because there are some really good job openings which I think would work great with my son’s schedule and pay a really decent wage.

    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk
    we are in need of groceries and I will need to get some decent work clothes for interviews and if i’m hired on. I can use what I have and borrowed some clothes. I haven’t bought anything for years.

    Rent/water/utilities are coming due. The electric bill is almost 300 this month due to the heat/humidity thank goodness it’s finally lowering in temp.

    I need to do car insurance again and won’t be able to drive after this week if I don’t make that payment.

    we have our phone bill which is 125 for both phones plus pays for internet( I paid a little extra last month) as well. I use my phone to plug into internet on the desk top, it saves money.

    Billy is good on clothes and I almost have all his supplies.

    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

  50. @ marquis:

    Hi Marquis,

    I’m sorry that I can’t afford to give any more right now with my own bills due.
    I will ask for others to help out.

    Some ideas.

    *Second Harvest Food Bank/Feed America
    http://www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america/impact-of-hunger/states/texas/?referrer=https://www.google.com/

    They have high quality food nation-wide for people who need to have food.
    My sister just worked on a team of 50 people are her local Second Harvest Food
    Bank. She filled 2 1/2 pound bags of polenta, from huge, huge, huge bags
    SHF had of polenta. She was deeply impressed by all of the good food that
    SHF has for folks in need and she told me all about it.

    She reports these positive stories every time she and her co-workers volunteer there for 4-hours.

    I believe you and Billy qualify. Please use this service. That’s what it’s there. There’s no shame in it. The government, citizens, companies, and charitable groups are contribute to make SHF successful.

    *Dress for Success
    https://www.dressforsuccess.org/

    I think you contacted them once before at my suggestion. Please try to do so again to get set up with interview outfits which they will give you.

    *Also if you could post (or email Dee or Deb your sizes to pass on to me) I will keep my eye out for clothes for you here, etc. Sometimes I have friends who can get me new things. Also let me know your bra size because one woman I know can get brand new free bras through her job to give to women in need. When I see her again, I could ask and send some to you in Texas if you have a need for this. I don’t mean to get personal…but that stuff is expensive!

    *

  51. I had hubby take me out to Walmart this morning to get groceries. I had my foot well wrapped up and used my shoe bootie, plus the leg piece on my wheelchair. I felt like I had run a marathon. It was painful beyond words. So I cut my grocery list to the things I really needed. Hubby can go back and get anything else. I am slowly making progress. I’m up to 8 hrs between pain pills, all with God’s help. I get the cast on next Wednesday afternoon. Can’t hardly wait. Between now and then I have to only go out on Tuesday afternoon of next week to see my chiropractor, but other than that, I’m staying home.

  52. Harley wrote:

    I had hubby take me out to Walmart this morning to get groceries. I had my foot well wrapped up and used my shoe bootie, plus the leg piece on my wheelchair. I felt like I had run a marathon. It was painful beyond words. So I cut my grocery list to the things I really needed. Hubby can go back and get anything else. I am slowly making progress. I’m up to 8 hrs between pain pills, all with God’s help. I get the cast on next Wednesday afternoon. Can’t hardly wait. Between now and then I have to only go out on Tuesday afternoon of next week to see my chiropractor, but other than that, I’m staying home.

    Thanks for the report, Harley. We are praying for your healing. Yes, stay home and get your rest. This was a big surgery on your foot.

    Love and hugs,

    Velour in California

  53. Hi Folks, I haven’t been on this forum in awhile, and kind of neat to see it’s become a place of prayer. Well, I’ve been a bit contemplative because I just found out today I have to have eye surgery tomorrow a.m. It should all go well and my right eye should eventually get back to normal. It’s just been more of a pain trying to arrange rides to and from the surgery and next day check up, which are in different locations around D.C. I have been cranky dealing with some people who probably could help out but chose not to. Just my pet peeve of the day. Praying for acceptance of others, grateful for people who offered to drive an hour or more to help me out, and praying that it will all work out (including the surgery center taking me since I”m taking the metro there and being picked up later by a friend).

  54. Former CLCer wrote:

    Hi Folks, I haven’t been on this forum in awhile, and kind of neat to see it’s become a place of prayer. Well, I’ve been a bit contemplative because I just found out today I have to have eye surgery tomorrow a.m. It should all go well and my right eye should eventually get back to normal. It’s just been more of a pain trying to arrange rides to and from the surgery and next day check up, which are in different locations around D.C. I have been cranky dealing with some people who probably could help out but chose not to. Just my pet peeve of the day. Praying for acceptance of others, grateful for people who offered to drive an hour or more to help me out, and praying that it will all work out (including the surgery center taking me since I”m taking the metro there and being picked up later by a friend).

    I will be praying for you and your eye surgery, transportation, and help.

    Love and hugs,

    Velour in California

    P.S. If I were there…I’d give you a ride!

  55. Update – my surgery went well. I have had to keep my head face downward for the last 24 hours – makes it interesting to drink that way, but thankfully my roommate had a straw! The doctor says I look good, but have to take the next week off, which is concerning since I have a new job. I”m praying I can work my job, which involves driving between schools, after that. But God will provide. My friends have actually been great. Thanks for all your prayers. I’m so thankful that doctors have the technology so my sight can be restored.

  56. Former CLCer wrote:

    Update – my surgery went well. I have had to keep my head face downward for the last 24 hours – makes it interesting to drink that way, but thankfully my roommate had a straw! The doctor says I look good, but have to take the next week off, which is concerning since I have a new job. I”m praying I can work my job, which involves driving between schools, after that. But God will provide. My friends have actually been great. Thanks for all your prayers. I’m so thankful that doctors have the technology so my sight can be restored.

    Yeah, Former CLCer. Thanks for the update. I’m glad you had a straw. Amazing about the technology to restore sight. I’ll be praying for your job and provision.

    Love and hugs,

    Velour from California

  57. Hi, Billy first week of school went great and he’s loving it! College Gate Crasher I wanted to give you a big shout out and a hug if I could. Billy just received the clothes you sent him. I buy this brand for his socks and other items you sent. I love it and so does he. He wanted me to make sure I told you that he loves everything you sent and he put on the workout pants and long sleeved shirt as soon as he got out of the shower tonight. Please pray for him. He fell in the shower and I think he may have broke his nose. We are waiting on the doctor. I’m hoping it’s just bruising. I don’t have medical insurance for him so I will be paying out of pocket so please pray me in this area. They will see him in the E.R. and I can pay the bill out in payments that is good news. At least he can get treated. Anyways he will be sending you an email himself letting you know as well. Thank you for your kindness.

  58. Hi Marquis,

    Catholic Gate-Crasher did a wonderful thing using her discount to get Billy clothes and sending them to TX. Very thoughtful, very cool.

    I’m sorry to hear that Billy took a tumble in the shower and may have a broken nose.

    You should be able to enroll him under the Affordable Health Care Act.
    https://www.austintexas.gov/page/affordable-care-act

    ^They have more info on that website in TX.

    My ex-pastor and his wife have their minor children on it. And they have 2 jobs (his and hers), good income, rent a 2-story home with a swimming pool, etc. Ummm…not sure how that works. But their kids are on it.

    Your Billy should be able to be on it. And they cover ER visits.

  59. I tried to get on the gov. healthcare plan. My income limit is considerably lower for a family of 2 as opposed to a family of four. I can’t make over a certain amount. I have always fallen right in between the cracks where I make to much but not enough to cover everything. I was told by the worker “well if you had another child we could get you on this or that”. Needless to say that was crazy. Up until the incident with billy I had no problem providing for him. I managed ok it’s different now because I have been utilizing the work I do so that I could be there for my son. Anyways it will be fine I will work out payment schedule with them and usually they knock off a lot of the bill. Billy is fine just bruised his nose really bad. Billy loves what she did and he said he’s going to email her and thank her himself. Thank you for giving me the information I did go over there and look again to see what else I may be able to utilize.

  60. marquis wrote:

    I tried to get on the gov. healthcare plan. My income limit is considerably lower for a family of 2 as opposed to a family of four. I can’t make over a certain amount. I have always fallen right in between the cracks where I make to much but not enough to cover everything. I was told by the worker “well if you had another child we could get you on this or that”. Needless to say that was crazy. Up until the incident with billy I had no problem providing for him. I managed ok it’s different now because I have been utilizing the work I do so that I could be there for my son. Anyways it will be fine I will work out payment schedule with them and usually they knock off a lot of the bill. Billy is fine just bruised his nose really bad. Billy loves what she did and he said he’s going to email her and thank her himself. Thank you for giving me the information I did go over there and look again to see what else I may be able to utilize.

    Oh, I’m relieved to hear that Billy’s nose is bruised and not broken. I was praying for him and for you.

    I would try applying again for health care. It’s really expanded and a lot of the problems have been worked out.

    Is there anyone at disability services with the school who could help out with your application since Billy has Dyslexia?

    I’m so glad that Catholic Gate-Crasher used her employee discount, got Billy cloths, and shipped them to you in TX. What a blessing! Yes, she would really appreciate an email from Billy.

    Love and hugs,

    Velour

  61. @Marquis,

    Because you are low income, you should be able to get health care coverage for you and Billy. Try again. I don’t know why that lady told you about having another child. It’s not relevant.

  62. Velour wrote:

    @Marquis,

    Because you are low income, you should be able to get health care coverage for you and Billy. Try again. I don’t know why that lady told you about having another child. It’s not relevant.

    I will be trying this again. : )

  63. marquis wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    @Marquis,
    Because you are low income, you should be able to get health care coverage for you and Billy. Try again. I don’t know why that lady told you about having another child. It’s not relevant.
    I will be trying this again. : )

    Good.

    Here’s another link for getting health insurance for TX children.
    http://www.tdi.texas.gov/pubs/consumer/cb071.html

  64. Here is the latest update.
    I am continuing to look for ways to earn income. There is not much here right now outside of medical professional or manual labor. I have looked into some online options and will continue that route, as well.
    Physically, I am tired a lot. Things seem to be moving in the right direction again, but I am physically and emotionally drained. Resting as much as possible. I am confident that I will recover, however. Just taking longer than I had hoped.
    Thanks to you, September’s rent was paid and I have food through this week and a full tank of gas.
    The next needs up are the usual monthly bills, which have gone up a little. They total $550 and start coming due the end of this week. I will, of course, have the ongoing need for food and gas next week.
    I am overwhelmed by how long this has taken. I never expected it to go for more than 2-3 months. I am in awe of the generosity of all of you. I would be on the street if it were not for you and I will be forever grateful. I have no means of ever paying you all back – and I know that you do not expect it. But in the future, it is my earnest desire and intent to pay it forward. Thank you all so much.

    http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

  65. Velour wrote:

    @ marquis:

    Marquis,

    What size are you for clothing? I’ll keep my eyes out. (Favorite colors, etc.)

    Hi Velour if we can do that through email that would be great!
    Billy’s nose is doing much better. He is a tough kid!

  66. My prayer request posted on the other thread yesterday.
    Muff Potter, Patriciamc, and Christiane responded and said they would pray. If anyone else would kindly pray, I would appreciate it. There are two more gentleman, besides the blind lady who is homeless and used to go to the mega church that I attended for awhile with a friend, who also need housing/medical care etc. One man has a bad leg and health problems. Another man is elderly and in a wheelchair.
    ********************
    Off-topic prayer request.
    I am extremely worried about a homeless woman who is blind and has a service dog.
    I realized that when I went to a mega church, at the invitation from a friend, that
    this woman was in the choir and in a job support group that I attended briefly between jobs.
    I emailed the mega church and asked for their help in finding her a place to live through social services, care for herself, caregivers, veterinary care for her dog (and a bath).
    The woman once lived in an apartment near me. But she was laid off from her computer job.
    Thanks friends. The mega church does have social workers and therapists.

  67. Please say a quick prayer! Our house has been for sale for six months now, with one contract on it fallen through. There’s someone deciding today between our house and another house!

  68. ishy wrote:

    Please say a quick prayer! Our house has been for sale for six months now, with one contract on it fallen through. There’s someone deciding today between our house and another house!

    Ishy, I’m praying for your home’s sale.

  69. Hi Folks,

    It’s great that people are really praying for each other on this venue. I have been home from work so trying to pray for requests as they come in. It’s amazing how much my eye is improving. I have a gas bubble in my eye to keep my retina back in place, so right now I’m seeing mostly the outlines of the bubble. Kind of interesting now that it’s fixed and on the mend.

  70. Former CLCer wrote:

    Hi Folks,
    It’s great that people are really praying for each other on this venue. I have been home from work so trying to pray for requests as they come in. It’s amazing how much my eye is improving. I have a gas bubble in my eye to keep my retina back in place, so right now I’m seeing mostly the outlines of the bubble. Kind of interesting now that it’s fixed and on the mend.

    Wonderful to hear! So very glad you’re on the mend, Former CLCer.

  71. ION:

    It occurred to me this evening that there are two kinds of people in the world:
    1) Those who root for Peter Griffin vs the giant chicken, and
    2) Those who root for the giant chicken.

    Just saying…

    IHTIH

  72. I got the stitches out of my foot yesterday. But I have to wait till next Wednesday to get the cast on. One of the two areas that I had stitches in, had an open raw small wound. My doctor couldn’t put a cast on an open wound. I am putting ASAP on it several times a day. This ASAP is a colloidal silver ointment gel that works wonders. I can already see an improvement over night. My pain has been at about the same level for the past week or so, but my doctor said that was normal and on target.

    Former Clcer – glad to hear that you are getting better. My husband had an older friend who has cancer behind his eye. He had some sort of thing put in it 2 weeks ago, for 2 days, then they took it out. It is helping to take care of the cancer. I know how precious eye sight it. Our friend, is also a fine Christian man. He even told my husband he had many praying for me. You just never know how much it means when you hear others are praying for you. I know you feel the same way. Keep us posted on that eyesight.

  73. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    It occurred to me this evening that there are two kinds of people in the world:

    Interesting. I was told there are 10 types of people: those who understand binary and those who don’t.

  74. @ Ken F:

    Like it… 🙂

    Another one I came across a while back was: There are two kinds of people in the world – those who divide people into two categories, and those who don’t!

  75. I just prayed for all the requests here for healing and provision. Went to the doctor and got cleared to go back to work, and my vision is 50% restored. I ironically forgot to ask if it was o.k. to drive, but since the doctor knows I’m an itinerant teacher, I figured it was o.k. for me to drive. Anyway, I drove to the nearby shopping center with no incidents, but I will be careful. Anything affecting your eyes is scary, but absolutely amazing what they can do with modern science and technology these days!

  76. Former CLCer wrote:

    I just prayed for all the requests here for healing and provision. Went to the doctor and got cleared to go back to work, and my vision is 50% restored. I ironically forgot to ask if it was o.k. to drive, but since the doctor knows I’m an itinerant teacher, I figured it was o.k. for me to drive. Anyway, I drove to the nearby shopping center with no incidents, but I will be careful. Anything affecting your eyes is scary, but absolutely amazing what they can do with modern science and technology these days!

    Thanks for sharing your news, and I’m glad your eyes have improved. I remember how much easier it was after my surgery to drive.

  77. Velour wrote:

    Glad Billy is doing better, Marquis.

    I have a response to you waiting to clear customs.

    waiting to clear customs? LOL not sure what that means but ok I can’t wait!!!! your the best velour. Billy is still doing great and this week he is asking a girl to homecoming. If she says yet it will be his first date. He is so excited that this weekend he asked a person we know who manages a gun range if he has any extra work and tomorrow he will be there at 7am . He will also being mowing the lawn of another former member of LBC (they are so kind and my sweet friend has offered to drive billy and his date if she says yes) this way his mom isn’t going on his date with him. My friend will take them where they want to go and wait in her car while they have their homecoming dance and dinner date. What a wonderful sweet woman, love her for this. Billy will also be going on sunday to rake leaves at another former member of LBC to earn extra money. He said that his date pays for nothing and that he wants to make it as special as he can. He told me that he will meet her parents so that they know she is in good hands and that her parents will probably want to meet me. I am so proud of this young man. The things that I have drilled into him over the years he is exercising such maturity and effort. I don’t even have to tell him what to do I just gave him the guidelines for when he wanted to start dating and he’s just being such a young man and so charming. Anyways I couldn’t wait to share with everyone here. All of you have played a big part in billy’s healing, support, and with providing for billy. These are some of the things you all are doing that is helping shape billy. He just told me today that he wants to go for his doctorate degree in petroleum engineering ( I had no idea this boy knew what a doctorate degree was). He has been staying after school to get extra help with where he struggles and all of this he has initiated on his own. It is incredible to see him come into his own. This morning for the first time since Billy has attended school he got up at 5am on his own fixed his own breakfast, grabbed a drink and went out to the bus stop. This is huge as it has always been a struggle to get him going and I never thought this day would happen. I was worried about whether he could commit to getting a real job because if you can’t wake yourself up how can you perform well working for another person? Anyways I believe with my whole heart that the support that billy has received , his counseling, and those here in our town who have stuck by billy contributed to my son’s future in what he wants to do and with his life and how he has been managing the trauma. When we received support from TWW and the few who stood by us it is now that I see Romans 8:28 work in our lives. God causes all things to come together for those that love him to those who are called according to His purpose. I was told this the day after billy’s rape and I can tell you that it hit like a nail in my heart. Not because it wasn’t true but because it wasn’t used to heal but to make us conform. I hope that made sense. Anyways Billy continues to break down the walls of fear, shame, guilt, sadness, grief, and so much more. He’s a wrecking ball and my prayer is that billy’s struggle will be used to love on others. Thanks for letting me share and thank you thank you for the help on the gofundme I am still working on getting all the bills taken care of but I can’t begin to tell you how this is helping us. All I can do is continue to thank you all of you and to give you updates on billy so that you know how you and others are impacting his life in a big way. You are investing in billy’s future with your kindness towards him, your supporting him , and through your encouragement.

  78. Today’s status.
    First, I was to just say thank you to all who are supporting me, whether financially, with prayer and love, with encouragement, or just understanding. The community at TWW, the ladies of Fruita, family and friends…you all work together to keep me from going under and there really are no words adequate to say thank you….
    So, I have been able to pay the first two bills that come due and have enough to get food for next week. The rest of the bills that are coming due the first of the week total $400 ($440 would cover the that including the fees for GoFundMe).

    http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

  79. Hi Velour,

    I forgot to post the gofundme link in the last post.
    Velour wrote:

    Glad Billy is doing better, Marquis.

    I have a response to you waiting to clear customs.

    waiting to clear customs? LOL not sure what that means but ok I can’t wait!!!! your the best velour. Billy is still doing great and this week he is asking a girl to homecoming. If she says yet it will be his first date. He is so excited that this weekend he asked a person we know who manages a gun range if he has any extra work and tomorrow he will be there at 7am . He will also being mowing the lawn of another former member of LBC (they are so kind and my sweet friend has offered to drive billy and his date if she says yes) this way his mom isn’t going on his date with him. My friend will take them where they want to go and wait in her car while they have their homecoming dance and dinner date. What a wonderful sweet woman, love her for this. Billy will also be going on sunday to rake leaves at another former member of LBC to earn extra money. He said that his date pays for nothing and that he wants to make it as special as he can. He told me that he will meet her parents so that they know she is in good hands and that her parents will probably want to meet me. I am so proud of this young man. The things that I have drilled into him over the years he is exercising such maturity and effort. I don’t even have to tell him what to do I just gave him the guidelines for when he wanted to start dating and he’s just being such a young man and so charming. Anyways I couldn’t wait to share with everyone here. All of you have played a big part in billy’s healing, support, and with providing for billy. These are some of the things you all are doing that is helping shape billy. He just told me today that he wants to go for his doctorate degree in petroleum engineering ( I had no idea this boy knew what a doctorate degree was). He has been staying after school to get extra help with where he struggles and all of this he has initiated on his own. It is incredible to see him come into his own. This morning for the first time since Billy has attended school he got up at 5am on his own fixed his own breakfast, grabbed a drink and went out to the bus stop. This is huge as it has always been a struggle to get him going and I never thought this day would happen. I was worried about whether he could commit to getting a real job because if you can’t wake yourself up how can you perform well working for another person? Anyways I believe with my whole heart that the support that billy has received , his counseling, and those here in our town who have stuck by billy contributed to my son’s future in what he wants to do and with his life and how he has been managing the trauma. When we received support from TWW and the few who stood by us it is now that I see Romans 8:28 work in our lives. God causes all things to come together for those that love him to those who are called according to His purpose. I was told this the day after billy’s rape and I can tell you that it hit like a nail in my heart. Not because it wasn’t true but because it wasn’t used to heal but to make us conform. I hope that made sense. Anyways Billy continues to break down the walls of fear, shame, guilt, sadness, grief, and so much more. He’s a wrecking ball and my prayer is that billy’s struggle will be used to love on others. Thanks for letting me share and thank you thank you for the help on the gofundme I am still working on getting all the bills taken care of but I can’t begin to tell you how this is helping us. All I can do is continue to thank you all of you and to give you updates on billy so that you know how you and others are impacting his life in a big way. You are investing in billy’s future with your kindness towards him, your supporting him , and through your encouragement.

    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

  80. marquis wrote:

    waiting to clear customs? LOL not sure what that means but ok I can’t wait!!!!

    Ken F’s phrase when he’s got a comment waiting to be approved.

  81. Hi, All!!

    I’m weeping with those who weep, rejoicing with victories and joys, adding my prayers in the midst of trials, pain, and sufferings.

    My condolences to Dee and family. The graduation of a loved one into the joy of being with Jesus is wonderful for her and sorrowful for us. I found that grief can be quite crazy. A person deeply loved is deeply missed.

  82. Very off-track. Just a heads-up, fwiw, that the Orthodox Church also
    deals with its share of scandals. Top-down ecclesiology surely does present terrible temptations to those in higher-up positions.

    http://www.ocanews.org/

  83. @ trs:
    However… they stopped updating in 2011. The site is archived, but I don’t know if others are carrying on the work that the site owner was doing, or not.

  84. I finally have good news about my left foot. As most of you know, I had surgery on August 24th to fuse to small bones at the top of my (Right past the arch). For the first 2 weeks my foot was very swollen. It was been gradually going down. My husband noticed this morning that it didn’t look very swollen at all. I got out my trust tape measured and measured both feet. There is now only about a half inch difference in both feet, which is almost normal. My feet normally can be a 1/4 to a 1/2 inch in difference. It still swells when I keep it vertical for more than a minute or so. I know my foot doctor was wanting the swelling to go down along with the area that was open from my stitches. That area is healing very nicely. So between the 2 things, I am progressing quite well. Still in a lot of pain. Sometimes for no reason at all. For being only 17 days post-op, I know that God has done amazing work in me and will continue to do so. I have strong faith that I will be able to walk around the house at least by Christmas. I will be in the cast for probably close to 12 weeks. But casts don’t bother me any. I’ve had to many of them. My thanks go out to each and everyone of you who prayed for me. This group of people here, truly knows how to pray for those in need. Never doubt this.

  85. trs wrote:

    Very off-track. Just a heads-up, fwiw, that the Orthodox Church also
    deals with its share of scandals. Top-down ecclesiology surely does present terrible temptations to those in higher-up positions.
    http://www.ocanews.org/

    I’m not naive and I think many people here are on to abuses in religious groups, no matter what the denomination.

  86. trs wrote:

    Very off-track. Just a heads-up, fwiw, that the Orthodox Church also
    deals with its share of scandals. Top-down ecclesiology surely does present terrible temptations to those in higher-up positions.
    http://www.ocanews.org/

    I wasn’t clear from the link WHICH scandal you were talking about. The Orthodox are not immune; it, too, is a church full of people who sin. And I think there is increased temptation where there is greater responsibility/visibility/authority.

    That said, the Orthodox Church doesn’t really have a top-down ecclesiology, at least as far as I understand what I think you mean by the phrase. Dogma/doctrine isn’t handed down from the top and the laity expected to pony up obedience. The laity is equally and specifically charged with keeping the teachings true to the faith…and more than a few clerics who got too sure of their ability to change doctrine found themselves locked out of the parish or banished from their posts when the laity called them on mistakes. The responsibility for discerning and holding to the truth runs through the entire body.

    And the last case of priestly sexual misconduct I was personally aware of, the bishop himself immediately called the police, even before starting an internal inquiry.

    But … we both have noted…where there is humankind, there will be sin. 🙁 And that includes the Orthodox.

  87. I heard something interesting on Christian radio today (which I won’t be able to repeat perfectly, but I think I can get the gist of it across). Every religious group has a great responsibility to do due diligence in the hiring/assigning of clerics. The people have a great responsibility to choose well who will lead them. That said, even in the best of circumstances and the best of efforts, the people are not omniscient (that belongs to God alone) and the leaders are not immune to sin/falling/changing (that, too, belongs to God alone).

  88. To Bridget and others that have been praying for me (Velour too). The wound marks on top of my foot are looking a lot better. The open wound from where the stitches were removed on one spot is scabbed over and looks 90% better. I see my foot doctor tomorrow (Sept 14th) to see if it has healed enough for him to put the cast on. I am so ready for the cast. Hard to believe it’s been almost 3 weeks now since the surgery. God has been good and faithful to me.

  89. Harley wrote:

    To Bridget and others that have been praying for me (Velour too). The wound marks on top of my foot are looking a lot better. The open wound from where the stitches were removed on one spot is scabbed over and looks 90% better. I see my foot doctor tomorrow (Sept 14th) to see if it has healed enough for him to put the cast on. I am so ready for the cast. Hard to believe it’s been almost 3 weeks now since the surgery. God has been good and faithful to me.

    Yeah, Harley!

  90. @PaJo

    Good point about which scandal. The blog covers years and several jurisdictions.

    Probably “corruption” rather than “scandals” better conveys my meaning.

    Good for that bishop. Rooting for that to become the new “Christian trend.” Wouldn’t dissecting righteous responses be s w e e t!! Calling for accountability among church leaders IS a trend. That’s for sure.

    The voices of those who have lived the hurt of corrupt church leaders/members are invaluable to me, regardless of church designation. I’m thankful for opportunities to
    compare what is preached/taught with members’/parishioners’ actually experience. The stories of abuse are so similar across “Christendom.”

    Believing God wants us to obey/follow/esteem/listen to people who range from obvious, unrepentant dishonesty to predator behavior seems to be a powerful deception, one which
    crept up on me for awhile. I’m glad to see the truth come to light everywhere.

    Also, here’s a list of convicted abusers from the ranks of the Orthodox Church.

    http://www.pokrov.org/status/convicted/

  91. trs wrote:

    The voices of those who have lived the hurt of corrupt church leaders/members are invaluable to me, regardless of church designation. I’m thankful for opportunities to
    compare what is preached/taught with members’/parishioners’ actually experience. The stories of abuse are so similar across “Christendom.”

    Be sure to compare.

    Even as I have noted in this blog’s combox, my experience with the branches of Christian groups has been by and large positive. Mostly, what I have seen has been the laying down of one’s life (time, money, care) for another, and that has been the dominant pastoral mode I have seen, as well.

    TWW was instrumental in helping me see why people are “Nones” or “Dones” as the Deebs have stayed true to “dissecting trends in modern Christianity.” I didn’t get it before; now I do. But it has broken my heart, and taken me to a foreign country where I understand neither the culture or the language.

    If scandal and sin and self-righteousness is the main identifier of a group, get out. Better yet–don’t even go there! But expecting perfection (which belongs to God alone) from people who are fallen — who will fall, even as they are sincere in pursuing Christ-likeness — is a sure path to disappointment at least, and more likely cynicism in the end.

    Your posts here have made me aware of a sin in my own life, and I have taken steps to amend that. It’s not good for me to dwell on the sins of others. I need to focus a lot less on that, and I shall, and focus on my own repentance. Thank you for this service to me.

  92. Friends, I’m asking for your prayers. I’m tired, I have four kids, I’ve been out of the workforce for *years*, and I need to find a job. 😛 I don’t know why I thought this would be a fairly straightforward process, but I’m trying to find something I’m actually *good at* and would *enjoy* instead of working in retail or something. So, it’s a real grind. 😛

  93. XianJaneway wrote:

    Friends, I’m asking for your prayers. I’m tired, I have four kids, I’ve been out of the workforce for *years*, and I need to find a job. I don’t know why I thought this would be a fairly straightforward process, but I’m trying to find something I’m actually *good at* and would *enjoy* instead of working in retail or something. So, it’s a real grind.

    Praying for you!

  94. Kind of surprised this didn’t make the rounds, but Mark Driscoll just spoke at a huge conference for Christian Radio people:

    http://cmbonline.org/momentum-2016/

    I understand that his topic was on social media and filtering what you say. Really. That bio’s pretty creepy as well.

  95. I got the cast on my left foot (leg) this morning. It doesn’t like it one bit. It is in a forward position. The real fusing of the bone can start now. It’s been quite painful for a few hours. But it’s getting better. I just have to get used to it. If anyone else ever has to get a cast put on a leg, let me share a tip with you I’ve learned. I put duct tape (brightly patterned) around the bottom part of my cast to make it less slippery when I move from one position to another. Over the years since I’ve been doing this, I’ve gotten quite a few comments about this. Mostly people like my various styles of duct tape. But, you do what you have to do to make life easier for you, and this does.

  96. Please pray for Lori Bridgewood and her family

    “Prayers needed for Tom and Lori Bridgewood.
    Lori was seriously hurt in a car accident when the driver had what was probably a heart attack. She is out of danger but will require extensive surgery on the fractures of her face. You may remember that they had 2 children abused in Sovereign Grace Ministries.”

    May God help all who need His loving care this night.
    Lord, hear our prayer. Amen.

  97. @ PaJo ~

    I’m glad for your positive church experiences, a true blessing. Participating in exemplary fellowship with humble believers is wonderful. I’m so happy your path so far has been abuser-free.

    Thanks for the affirmation to compare the “saying” with the “doing.” Hearing about God’s love and then seeing entrenched abuse can be really crazy-making. (I think the relevant term is “cognitive dissonance.”)

    I appreciate your voice of concern about matters foreign to your experience. Empathy is heartening and feels really good.

    Sudden awareness of the wolves among God’s trusting sheep can be quite the traumatic shock. Finding others who share the resultant understanding and language is, to me, God’s gracious gift. (NOT their abuse and suffering, but, rather, how I learn and heal from what they share)

    A very freeing realization for me, one which took too long for me to “get,” is that wolves are not sincerely pursuing Christ-likeness. Their nature is to abuse . . . without any accountability at all.

    What a relief to know that God doesn’t require me to treat wolves as brothers or sisters in Christ. God requires me to speak the truth in love and to overcome evil with God’s goodness, which includes shining His light in deeply dark places and, in my own understanding, involving God’s duly appointed authorities for the purposes with which He has ordained them.

    Cynicism? Oh, yeeeeaaaaahhhhh. I’ve struggled much with that one. I mean, who wants bitterness, anger, cynicism, broken trust, suspicion, emotional triggers, etc. in their lives? — raise your hand. I don’t; that’s for sure. The reality is sin does real damage and effects real destruction in the lives of real people. God hates sin because sin destroys humans whom He loves. Thankfully, God’s power and love are stronger than the ravage of sin.

    I’m sincerely glad (and surprised) to have been of service. I’m not sure exactly what you mean, but God does use us broken, (in my case, foolish, clueless, blundering) imperfect vessels to bring glory to Himself. Amazing, awesome, wonderful God.

    I’m so glad our sin is FORGIVEN and there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1) Difficult for me to believe and actualize, but TRUE!! God doesn’t lie.

  98. @trs

    “but God does use us”

    I was thinking of “use” in terms of the way God, through His grace, makes my paltry offerings actually useful in His Kingdom. That’s amazing grace to me, which speaks of His superlative character, not mine.

    I could have worded my thought better since the word “use” also carries the connotation of “to exploit.”

    God does indeed majestically and sovereignly show forth His glory in the lives of His beloved people, in ways we are often unaware of.

    (We used to sing (in the KJV) this song: 1 Peter 2:9 – 10)

  99. After reading the article on the ESV, and reading/hearing so many arguments about so many issues, I’m about ready to throw up my hands and say, “Forget it!”

    Christianity should not be this difficult. And I think we make it difficult with all our rules, regulations, and squabbles about so many things!

  100. Two of the problems I have are:

    1. While God doesn’t lie, people do, and they use the name of Jesus and Scripture to “prove” their lies.
    2. People have an agenda, and they use the name of Jesus and Scripture to “prove” their agendas.

  101. Last I heard on the TV news, police found a second device (reported to be a pressure cooker) at a second location in New York.

    29 injured in explosion on Chelsea street [New York]; second location at 27th Street investigated: ‘This was an intentional act’
    http://pix11.com/2016/09/17/fdny-confirms-outdoor-explosion-in-chelsea/

    Snippets:
    —–
    Twenty-nine people were injured in an “intentional” explosion in the heart of Chelsea Saturday night, jolting a bustling neighborhood teeming with restaurants, bars and pedestrians and alarming the city on what had been a calm weekend evening.

    “This was an intentional act,” Mayor Bill de Blasio said at a news conference Saturday night.

    …A possible secondary device has been found at West 27th Street between Sixth and Seventh avenue, according NYPD Special Operations. The area should be avoided, the NYPD said.

  102. @ Tina

    Problems 1 & 2 — too true! Especially the wolves.

    For me, “Christianity” isn’t the main issue. In my view, God didn’t offer us Christianity. He offered us His Beloved Son to believe in and to follow. . . . and be loved by.

  103. Here are a couple of personal conclusions from my intensive inquiry into Eastern Orthodoxy.

    “Obey your bishop” is an implicitly and/or explicitly expressed expectation which consistently is directly and indirectly reinforced in all aspects of church life.

    We seem to differ in our understandings of “Christ paid for sin once for all,” which means I don’t really believe what is being expressed in the Eucharist. So, in good conscience and good faith, I would refrain from participation.

    The Orthodox Church also kindly agrees with me about my participation. As a non-communicant visitor, I do enjoy the gesture behind the friendship bread, which, in my experience, has always been home-baked.

    And, oops, somehow the keyboard shifted during my previous comment (keyboards can be so tricky that way) and I messed up my email address. So that comment is now in TWW customs.

  104. So here is my latest update.
    I am chagrined. Due in part to my own miscalculation and in part to having to pay a late fee on a bill, I am out of funds, out of food, and embarrassed. I have one bill that still need to be paid ($25) and is due today. I need food and gas, and of course, the rent will be coming due again soon ($565). I also have not been able to get a treatment item that I need – $25.
    I still seem to be at somewhat of an impasse, health-wise. It does get discouraging, but I remain confident that it will resolve in time.
    Thank you all for you help and support. God bless you.

    http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

  105. marquis wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    @Marquis,

    Would Texas’ victim assistance fund (we have one in California) pay for things like Billy’s gymnastics? It’s worth a try. Maybe a school counselor with disability services could give an assist too with a plan.

    Man your an awesome source of information velour. I am going to check that out. Billy just got home from his second day of school. He walked in the door and told me a lot of girls hit on him at school today lol. He got his first assignment Project and it’s due next week. My sweet guy wants to get it done this week. Oh my gosh someone pick me up off the floor. He has in the past been the #1 procrastinator. He said one girl asked for his number but he told her he has to get to know her first , wow such a proud mama. They asked him what he likes in girls and he told some of them that he likes girls who love and respect their parents. I have always explained to billy that a girl who loves the Lord and honors her parents should be the two most important qualities. Anyways I just had to brag on billy for a second.

    Hi Velour,
    The Victims compensation fund I submitted all my medical bills for billy the night of his rape and for some reason they were not paid. I don’t know what happened there it was very disheartening. I was cheated out of doing a victim impact statement because of Ken Ramey and the men he appointed to council me and then proceed to tell me if I continued to be involved that I was not being forgiving and it was not biblical. They worked me over on that one and to this day I feel it in my gut! I think part of the healing process is to be able to face my son’s perpatrator and the courts telling them how this impacted my child and what it has done to me emotionally and financially. Had I understood the court system I would have never missed that opportunity. I could have asked for restitution and I had no idea. That restitution could have covered between 6-7 thousand in medical bills alone. Now i’m stuck footing the bill along with the trauma created for billy and what it has done to me. I trust no one and there are times when billy feels it. I feel the way I feel and it’s something that hopefully more time will heal. Anyways I’m so frustrated with the loss of income (caused by Ken Ramey and LBC) they get to move on with their lives collecting a nice salary while he purposefully took away my means to provide. He gets paid to ruin long time relationships and reak havoc on our lives and yet nothing like this will ever happen to him or any of them it seems ( please understand I never want another person to experience this pain) however they will never understand the damage they create to hurting people because they take advantage of you and toss you aside when you are no longer useful to their church. I never dreamed this would be something I would still be dealing with. I’m angry but not because I want revenge or I want anyone from LBC to go through this I want each and everyone who took part in the shunning of members, canceling business relationships by taking the pastors lead, and cutting off relationships when you know it’s not right! I am certain there are some from LBC reading these comments and blogs, ken especially. I don’t hate any of you nor do I wish for you to ever experience what you have put me and my son through, it’s horrible. I can’t even go into another church still because these broken relationships and the damage inflicted is there and I don’t know how to trust again. People who go through this type of rejection and trauma don’t want for it to continue we want resolve, we want restored relationships we desire it but not if those who inflicted this pain in the first place refuse to acknowledge the offenses to begin with. Anyways as I sit here I know i’m venting and I kind of got off into a tangent.

    Billy is doing well he loves school and algebra for the first time is becoming incredibly easy for him. He loves his engineering course and his teachers. Billy asked a girl to homecoming and got turned down but not because she didn’t want to go but because she’s not allowed to date. I’m so proud of billy as he understood and said if her parents don’t want her dating then I have to respect that. Wow, he is becoming such a young man. He did go to the homecoming game Saturday and spent time with his friends. Something happened but billy won’t open up to me about it. Hopefully it’s just H.S. stuff. Billy normally tells me everything he always has. The week before last billy worked for several people and earned himself 130.00 this is the first time he has kept money in his pocket and not spent it. He loves making his own money and has been very frugal with it. I’m so proud of him he picked up gun shells all day one day, pulled weeds another day in the hot sun and texas is hot, and he helped a friend and her daughter move her out of her house. Now billy wants to get a regular job but we are going to have to navigate that because school needs to be first.

    This is my last week feeding the horses and I must say that my heart is breaking a little because I love those animals. I couldn’t keep doing this 7 days a week working for pennies and it wasn’t even covering my gas. It turned out that I was making about .27 cents an hour. I was getting home at 9:30pm at night and billy needs me to be here. As crazy as that sounds he is use to mom being home when he gets home from school or at least by 5pm and making dinner. He was getting a lot of anxiety with me being gone so much these past months and i’m not sure if that is what has created some of the recent events in billy’s life. Even though I was working for little it’s still going to be a loss in income and we are at mid month and are struggling. Jeannette Atles please forgive me for posting right after you billy’s gofundme link I don’t want to take away from others seeing your need. I’m a bit scared as my interviews have not panned out just yet I went and now i’m waiting. I will be applying to more jobs this week and my soon to be former employer said she would give me a reference. Taking care of the horses all these months helped me establish a recent work history with a reputable company. In the meantime we have rent, utilities that are due today so i’m going to float a check and try to get the funds in there. Someone recently gave 100 on the gofundme and as soon as it hits our wellsfargo account that will leave me with 120.00 left to get for the electric. Our phone bill and internet is due today and we still need rent, gas, a little food for the week, car insurance is coming due next week just the basic bills. As soon as I earn money it just go’s right back out theres never a moment to spend on anything else but as long as the bill’s are paid I am just grateful and anything beyond that is God’s additional blessing to us. Please pray for me as my heart right now is very heavy. The financial burden is really small compared to how I feel today about where we are and some of the things billy has been dealing with recently. Lets just say he’s not sleeping well and neither am I. I am confident that the right job will come along and I have skills. Thank you all again for your prayers and support and thank you for just letting me get these things off my chest. It does help tremendously. Below is the link to mine and billy’s gofundme. I don’t expect any of you here to give and I certainly don’t want you to ever feel like you need to. One way or another God will make provisions and your prayers, support, and letting me come here to share means so much more to us. We have not gone hungry or without needs being met. I have been so encouraged by all of you and what a blessing it has been to see God work through this body of Christians in providing some amazing things to me and billy these past months.

    Billy and Shauna

    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

  106. marquis wrote:

    The Victims compensation fund I submitted all my medical bills for billy the night of his rape and for some reason they were not paid

    As the saying goes, water trickles down hill.

    Please write the Texas Governor online and ask for assistance. https://gov.texas.gov/contact/

    Also your elected officials (state):
    http://www.mcrp.org/ElectedOfficialsContactInfo.htm

    Contact Victim Witness for the District Attorney’s office/county and ask for help with this.

  107. @ marquis:

    Oh I’m so sorry about all of this.

    I was a crime victim once before and savagely beaten by a man in broad daylight
    in a ‘nice’ neighborhood. He was on Meth. Victim Witness paid for my medical bills,
    therapy, etc. I’m in California. I went on and changed state law in California for crime victims and that took 4-years of hard work and testifying before a state senate committee.

  108. Hi velour,

    I’m so sorry for what happened to you I can’t even imagine. You are so brave and a fighter. I filled out that application and turned it I to safe harbor. I will have to contact the governor because the application went nowhere

  109. marquis wrote:

    Hi velour,
    I’m so sorry for what happened to you I can’t even imagine. You are so brave and a fighter. I filled out that application and turned it I to safe harbor. I will have to contact the governor because the application went nowhere

    Thanks, Marquis. I am sorry for what happened to Billy and to you.
    Send your application certified/return receipt. And make sure to keep a complete set.

  110. Hi Marquis,

    I think you should contact a Texas attorney to discuss Texas law for personal injury.
    Besides the criminal route (filed by the government) there is also the civil route (filed by a person). This attorney’s website says that a minor beneath the age of 18 has until the age of 20 under Texas law to file a lawsuit.

    http://www.tomhalllaw.com/library/texas-statute-of-limitations-for-child-abuse-and-injury-claims.cfm

    You may want to contact the attorney.

    You can also post questions for free on Avvo.com

  111. ^Avvo dot com is answered by attorneys across the nation to your question. It’s free.
    Type in your question and choose “personal injury”, etc. Applicable areas of law.
    Choose your jurisdiction (Texas).

    https://www.avvo.com/

  112. Also, Marquis, it’s important that you get Billy covered on health insurance of one form or another so that you don’t have a tax liability for having him uninsured.

  113. Odd. The <b></b> tag doesn’t seem to be working the noo…

    Has it been disabled to stop people like me shouting? Would make sense, I suppose. 😉

  114. Aha! My mistake. We’ve moved on to <strong></strong>.

    I assume this is a version Thing, as I gather <b></b> has been discouraged in more recent versions of HTML.

  115. Uncle Dad and Family —

    I sit shiva with you in your mourning and loss. My words are just lost in the weightiness of this terrible tragedy in your family.

    I AM thankful to know what happened to your niece.

    I pray for an outflowing of support for you all.

  116. @ Jeannette & Marquis ~~

    Still praying here . . .

    Thank you for letting your needs be known. Your faith, transparency, and humility edify me.

  117. @ Velour ~~

    Wow, Velour. Strong reactions to your being beaten.

    One of those “sighs and groans too deep for words” moments.

    You are a remarkable person. Thank you for the way you “do life” and bless the lives of others.

  118. trs wrote:

    @ Velour ~~
    Wow, Velour. Strong reactions to your being beaten.
    One of those “sighs and groans too deep for words” moments.
    You are a remarkable person. Thank you for the way you “do life” and bless the lives of others.

    A million thanks for your kind words. It means a lot.

    Thank you as well for being a kind, thoughtful, generous, praying person. It’s good to know you!

  119. @ Velour

    Thanks.

    Likewise. Totally righteous to blog-share with a fellow “unstable” and “shun-worthy” soul.

  120. trs wrote:

    @ Velour
    Thanks.
    Likewise. Totally righteous to blog-share with a fellow “unstable” and “shun-worthy” soul.

    Oh, you made me laugh out loud!

    And this to shall pass, friend.

  121. Uncle Dad, your niece babysat my kids when they were small. She was in my AWANA club. She worked at our local Great Clips for a while. I know her family though we’ve lost touch since we left the church. I hurt so much for her parents and I am praying for them.

  122. Velour wrote:

    I was a crime victim once before and savagely beaten by a man in broad daylight
    in a ‘nice’ neighborhood. He was on Meth. Victim Witness paid for my medical bills,
    therapy, etc. I’m in California. I went on and changed state law in California for crime victims and that took 4-years of hard work and testifying before a state senate committee.

    Just read this. How terrible for you. And yet you used that dreadful experience in order to try to change the laws and get help for others.

  123. Thank you trs you are so sweet. I appreciate all that this community has done and those outside of it. I submitted my resume to several places and now i’m waiting on more interviews. Please pray that I can get on with a city/government job. This will come with amazing benefits , get me off gofundme , and allow me to be home with my son in the early evenings plus paid sick leave and vacation. I am very skilled in typing 65 wpm, programs such as microsoft and excel, and I have mad customer service skills. I gave my resume to a friend who’s husband works for a technologies company so he is supposed to send it to his supervisor. I am praying for this position as it would be wonderful to. I left the horses and that was really hard but a financial relief because I couldn’t afford the gas. I was making .27 cents an hour after I deducted my costs and It was getting me home after 9pm most evenings. Anyways we are struggling as this last paycheck garnered me 151.00 the bills have been extended but come next week they are going to be due after already being late. I have also applied to the school districts as well. By next week I need to try to earn about 600.00 for utilities, my late rent, water, trash, phone, food, and gas. Please pray for interviews and that the right job will come. Billy wants to apply for work at one of the grocery stores pushing carts. He said he wants to make his own money. I am so proud. By the way he is getting 100% in Intro to Engineering , 100% Reading, 79 in Algebra, 85 in world Geography, 100 in science, and a 100% in business info management! He is so smart and he has stated that classes are better this year because the teachers go slow and allow him to stay after. Billy has been taking every opportunity to get help, something he has never done before. It use to take me about 30 minutes to get him going and out of bed in the mornings and now when I wake up to check to see if he’s up he’s already out the door and waiting for his bus at 5:45am. Billy has yet to not be up on his own that early. He stays after school two days a week for student council volunteering his time to decorate for dances and events. I am experiencing a different billy this year and I am so encouraged by him. In spite of his struggle with ptsd he is putting a lot of energy into his studies and giving his time and then on top of that he has been doing different jobs to earn his own money. Thank you for praying for him he still needs it because we still deal with the dark side of the effects of his rape but i’m choosing to share with you all the positive and wonderful things billy is doing in spite of that. He is truly a fighter and one who is learning to over come.

    I did contact the state velour and they are looking into paying the medical bills. I am also looking into health insurance for us as well. Thank you for your help in this area.

    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

  124. Our house is finally under contract after 6 months on the market, but we only have 3 weeks to close with no house bought in the new city. Spent all day with realtor looking at houses, and there’s some decent options.

    I thank everyone for their prayers, and pray we can survive the moving process… 😉

  125. Another update.
    Thank you to all of you. I am still amazed at your support and love. There really are no words. So, it has been a rough week, physically. Was in a lot of pain yesterday with stomach and back. Still some sore today, but up and getting some errands done.
    My bills for this month are all paid, with the late fees (sigh). And I have food through the weekend and a full tank of gas. So currents needs are rent due in a week ($565) and ongoing need for food and treatment items.
    Again, thank you all for everything you have done and are doing. God bless you.

    http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

  126. Hi,

    I;m a student in Fl who is having conflict with a control freak teacher who taught at BJU from 1999 – 2014 . Is there anyplace I can go to research this?

  127. @ Jeannette — 9/22 comment

    …. as well as my faith strengthened . . . and my experiences validated.. . . like wow! no, I’m really NOT crazy. Priceless!!

    Thanks for your updates.

    Sometimes “jargon terms” do express what I want to say. Like, right now, “edified.”
    I am edified — for reals — seeing the love circulate on this blog.

  128. @ student

    I meant — the GRACE Board of Directors is posted at the GRACE site, in case contacting one of them might be helpful to you.

  129. @ marquis

    A.W.E.S.O.M.E !!!! High fives to the max. WOW!!

    Your good news is our good news. I’m so proud of Billy, too and I’m so proud of you. What a privilege for us to get to soak up the joy and goodness of Billy’s successes and honorable attitudes/decisions. I am ridiculously happy for you both. You sure will benefit whoever hires you.

    I also appreciate your courage and candor in speaking about the realities of child abuse, including going straight to the folks who need the most to hear the truth.

  130. Hi, ishy

    So glad for your the good news about your house.

    I still have a Greek grammar question for you — which I will hopefully get around to posting.

    Hope your moving is as stress – less as possible.

  131. Check this out.

    Introducing . . . . fist-bop ~ ~ ~ ~ taking fist-bump to the next level.

    If you like fist-bump, you’ll love “gladtobeFREE-solidarity” fist-bop.

    Celebrating the highly de-celebrated, non-celebrity Neo-Culls: the Gone, the Done, the None, the Nope!, the Holy Disgusted, the Holy Fleeced, the Holy Fleeing, the Refused Refugees, the Looze-the-Abuzers’ers, and all Associated Refusin’-the-Delusion Affiliates.

    Elect, Officially Authorized Demo and/or Training Vids may (or may not) be currently available exclusively at TWW Commentors’ Pound Sound Enterprises

    Inquiries @ Attn: Commentor “get up and dance . . . people” Velour ~~ Resources, Product Development, Marketing and Distribution

  132. trs wrote:

    Inquiries @ Attn: Commentor “get up and dance . . . people” Velour ~~ Resources, Product Development, Marketing and Distribution

    A+

    You will be leading us in the conga line at Camp Backbone in Kentucky!

  133. i just had a thought to put out there for the sake of those who have been abused and are in need of healing:

    therapy animals

    yes, there are trained dogs and even cats who bring solace and kindness to injured people ….

    if, at some point a trained therapy animal can be brought into the life of an abused person, I think it could work for good.

    I got the idea because we have begun preparing for the annual feast of St. Francis and the blessing of the animals. I hope many here will seek out such a ceremony in their own community this October out of love for their pets, and if nothing more, for the sheer JOY of this annual ceremony of blessing.

    Here’s something about therapy animals and their gift of healing:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe87cNLQCqA

  134. Hi Dee,
    Is it possible for you to do an update on the gofundme? I don’t want to bother you while your on your trip with calling.

  135. This is to answer the questions by Ken F on the “penal substitution” discussion we were having. I felt it necessary to move this to here as it is a digression from the main point of the original post. Sorry for the long post but I want to answer some questions that were asked.

    I have just been considering this issue and questioning the traditional doctrine of penal substitution, not only the phrase but the concept. I don’t think the Bible supports it but Chalke threw the baby out with the bathwater and rejected a biblical doctrine with it (the doctrine of God’s wrath).

    The Victorian preacher Sir Robert Anderson summed up the doctrine of Christ’s death this way:

    “But, it will be urged, if Christ did not die as our substitute, salvation is impossible; and if He did so die for us, this fact must date from Calvary, and not from our conversion. This assumes that the death of Christ was instead of some, in such a sense as to make their salvation forensically a necessity, and that the salvation of any besides is a moral impossibility. Such difficulties only prove the danger of departing from the strict accuracy of scriptural expressions in dealing with these truths. To speak of Christ’s dying instead of us, or as our substitute, is to adopt the language of theology, not of Scripture, and we must take care lest we use the words in a sense or a connection inconsistent with the truth. The teaching of Scripture is that He died for sinners (there is no emphasis on the preposition), and that, on believing, they become identified with Him in that death.” (Kregal Publications 1978, p95).

    I would highly recommend Anderson’s volume here, I was greatly blessed by it. He concluded on this that “theology has given rise to questions from which the simplicity of Scripture is entirely free”. So I was wrong to say that Steve Chalke made a serious error in rejecting penal substitution but I still think he was wrong to downplay God’s wrath against sin and he caused a lot of confusion. Unfortunately many have polarised two positions only, much the same as they do with Calvinists and Arminians. I am neither with Steve Chalke nor with his opponents who defend “penal substitution”. I will defend the doctrine that Christ died for us, and for our sins and to deliver us from wrath.

    Ken F’s questions are driven by deductive logic rather than inductive logic. Question18 appears to be taken from Steve Chalke’s book.

    1. [Christ] bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed. (1 Peter 2:24). Isaiah 53 says that the Lord has laid upon him the iniquity of us all. Corinthians says that Christ became a sin offering for us. I cannot find any verses that says he died as our substitute, but it does say that he died for our sins.
    2. The nearest I can find to this is Colossians: And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (Colossians 2:13-14)
    3. 3. According to NT Greek scholars W.E. Vine and Spiros Zodhiates, the word “propitiation” in 1 John 2:2 was commonly used among the Greeks to appease the gods.
    4. Look up many references in the Old Testament where God’s wrath is made known. King Josiah said to Israel in 2 Chronicles 34: “great is the wrath of the Lord that is poured out on us, because our fathers have not kept the word of the Lord, to do according to all that is written in this book.” Isaiah said “Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.” Jeremiah (10:10) said “But the Lord is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King. At His wrath the earth will tremble, And the nations will not be able to endure His indignation.” Romans 1 says “the wrath of God is being revealed from heaven”. I could go on but there are too many examples. Wrath has to be appeased by it’s nature. This is true amongst humans, it is just as true about God. Romans 5 and 1 Thessalonians 1 says that Jesus will deliver us from “the wrath to come”. Romans 5 says that Christ died for us whilst we were still sinners, and reconciled whilst we were enemies. What does the word “enemies” imply?
    5. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. It is in the blood to make atonement for your soul (Leviticus 17:11, Hebrews 9:22).
    6. The cross is the basis of all forgiveness. And by the way, justice still has to be done in the realm of human sin. You may forgive someone who has committed a crime against you, but would you intervene to stop them being punished by the courts if it was truly offensive and caused you a lot of damage?
    7. Deuteronomy 24 simply shows God’s justice. He means that he will not be so mean as take it out on you if your father or son does wrong. This is completely different to God, in his kindness and love, bearing the sins of the whole world.
    8. I don’t follow this logic but it sounds like the atheist “gotcha” question “if God is omnipotent, can he create a rock bigger than himself?” The question also overlooks the fact that God has emotion and character. We are created in the image of God and our emotions are part of that. God is just. Do you not get angry when you see murder and abuse of other human beings? Do you not call out for justice? God certainly does. Unless you believe in an emotionless and passionless deity, which is more like the Greeks than the Hebrew God of the Bible?
    9. This covers 10, 11 and 12 also. John 3:36 says that God’s wrath is against sinners for rejecting Christ, not for their committed sins. If God has provided you with a Saviour and you reject that Saviour and pour contempt on him, how do you think that makes God feel? How would you feel if you showed an act of kindness to someone and they treated you like that?
    10. See above.
    11. See above.
    12. See above. Add to this, Jesus said to the Pharisees “if you believe not that I am, you shall die IN YOUR sins”.
    13. Go back to John 3:36: He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    14. Although God provided atonement for the sins of the whole world, only those who come will benefit. If you provide a meal for a hungry person on the street and he throws that away and refuses to eat it, he still goes hungry? Your logic asks “how is that just if I have paid for his food?”
    15. When Paul said “I am crucified with Christ”, he meant that he was dead to sin and to the world. Paying the penalty for his owns was not the meaning he had in mind when he wrote those words.
    16. See point 14 above.
    17. You are confusing the consequence with the remedy. The Bible does not say that sin must be paid for by eternal separation from him. That is the inevitable consequence. The Bible says that the shedding of blood is required for forgiveness, and eternal life and salvation is the result of that forgiveness. In 1 Thessalonians 1:9 it says that “everlasting destruction” is the punishment for rejecting the gospel – the way of salvation that God has offered.
    18. Please see point 6.
    19. I cannot find a direct answer in the Bible about that, but it does not concern me. I can’t answer that any more than I can explain the trinity, or the fact that God has no beginning, that divine providence and human freedom are both Biblical truths, and that the Bible is both a divine and a human work.
    20. To turn this around: what was the state of the trinity during the entire life of Jesus Christ? I am not sure and I do not want to go beyond what the Scripture says here. If we go beyond what is revealed, we will end up wrapped in all kinds of philosophical sophistries that plague these debates.

    Please consider these points that I raised before:

    1. If we are angry about sin (and I have seen some righteous anger on TWW about the pedophilia, domestic violence and other forms of abuse), then do you deny God that same right to be angry? Is this anger not a reflection of God’s anger.
    2. If there is no wrath and no justice, what justice will Hitler and other notorious murderers face?

  136. some thoughts on learning of the death of Khaled of the White Helmets of Aleppo, Syria:

    ” God is love.
    Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.”
    (from 1 John 4:16)

    “Greater love has no one than this,
    that he lay down his life for his friends.”
    (from the Holy Gospel of St. John 15:13)

    ‘Lord God, no one is a stranger to You
    and no one is ever far from Your loving care.
    In Your great kindness,
    remember all innocent victims of war.’
    Amen.

  137. ZechZav wrote:

    1. If we are angry about sin (and I have seen some righteous anger on TWW about the pedophilia, domestic violence and other forms of abuse), then do you deny God that same right to be angry? Is this anger not a reflection of God’s anger.
    2. If there is no wrath and no justice, what justice will Hitler and other notorious murderers face?

    If Christ died, once, for all, then what is this continued wrath and justice for? If a man or woman rejects Christ, they are separated from God for eternity. Is that not enough punishment? If they believe in Christ, they have an eternity with God.

  138. ZechZav wrote:

    Ken F’s questions are driven by deductive logic rather than inductive logic. Question18 appears to be taken from Steve Chalke’s book.

    I’ve never read Chalke’s book, so any similarity between my questions and his are purely coincidental. I would very much like to respond to each of your points, but I am pressed for time right now and cannot get to them just yet. But here is my reply to Joey a few minutes ago on the other thread: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/09/21/sovereign-grace-churches-host-conferences-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-284807.

    In addition to the other articles linked to that comment, check this out: http://perichoresis.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/God-in-the-Hands-of-Angry-Sinners.pdf. It’s what appears to be a much older way of viewing the atonement.

    I’ll try to respond more fully later, but it might not be until the weekend.

  139. @ Ken F:

    Thanks Ken. I will have a read of that article and share my thoughts later – it will take more time for me to give an indepth reply.

  140. marquis wrote:

    Thank you trs you are so sweet. I appreciate all that this community has done and those outside of it. I submitted my resume to several places and now i’m waiting on more interviews. Please pray that I can get on with a city/government job. This will come with amazing benefits , get me off gofundme , and allow me to be home with my son in the early evenings plus paid sick leave and vacation. I am very skilled in typing 65 wpm, programs such as microsoft and excel, and I have mad customer service skills. I gave my resume to a friend who’s husband works for a technologies company so he is supposed to send it to his supervisor. I am praying for this position as it would be wonderful to. I left the horses and that was really hard but a financial relief because I couldn’t afford the gas. I was making .27 cents an hour after I deducted my costs and It was getting me home after 9pm most evenings. Anyways we are struggling as this last paycheck garnered me 151.00 the bills have been extended but come next week they are going to be due after already being late. I have also applied to the school districts as well. By next week I need to try to earn about 600.00 for utilities, my late rent, water, trash, phone, food, and gas. Please pray for interviews and that the right job will come. Billy wants to apply for work at one of the grocery stores pushing carts. He said he wants to make his own money. I am so proud. By the way he is getting 100% in Intro to Engineering , 100% Reading, 79 in Algebra, 85 in world Geography, 100 in science, and a 100% in business info management! He is so smart and he has stated that classes are better this year because the teachers go slow and allow him to stay after. Billy has been taking every opportunity to get help, something he has never done before. It use to take me about 30 minutes to get him going and out of bed in the mornings and now when I wake up to check to see if he’s up he’s already out the door and waiting for his bus at 5:45am. Billy has yet to not be up on his own that early. He stays after school two days a week for student council volunteering his time to decorate for dances and events. I am experiencing a different billy this year and I am so encouraged by him. In spite of his struggle with ptsd he is putting a lot of energy into his studies and giving his time and then on top of that he has been doing different jobs to earn his own money. Thank you for praying for him he still needs it because we still deal with the dark side of the effects of his rape but i’m choosing to share with you all the positive and wonderful things billy is doing in spite of that. He is truly a fighter and one who is learning to over come.

    I did contact the state velour and they are looking into paying the medical bills. I am also looking into health insurance for us as well. Thank you for your help in this area.

    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

    Update I was able to extend some of my bills and work some jobs to cover the expenses but october is coming up in a day or two and the needs are still the same. I’m not sure if this is getting lost in the mix so I thought I would just high light and copy then repost. I hope you all don’t mind. Others post their gofundme’s here as well and although I try not to trample on that i’m hoping others will see and then trust the Lord to do the rest. I appreciate your prayers for a job that will suit our needs and that will coincide with me being able to be home with billy. We just went through another kid threatening to harm billy and I believe this kid to possess similar characteristics as his perpetrator. This triggered billy to be fearful and duck down in our car so that this kid would not see what car we drove and then find our house. I was able to work with Bill’s principal at the H.S. ( he was the one who took part in keeping billy safe from his perpetrator in the school district and has been amazed himself at billy’s progress). I share this because it’s important to know that billy struggles greatly with triggers and with other teens who will take opportunities to pick on him or intimidate. I wish I could say I was use to it or he’s use to it but we are not and it’s very unnerving as a mother because I wanted to pull my car over and jump all over that teen. Needless to say I thought it but never would do that. My response was to contact the school immediately and try to resolve it before anything happens. I did remind the principal that those who have been abused are more likely to be abused a second time at a much higher rate that those who have never been abused I believe it’s 13.7 times more higher according to CASA. So I believe it is still crucial that I be available for billy and remain on a regimented schedule but also give him some freedom to be a kid. These are the things that have changed drastically in my life aside from the changes billy has had to go through. It’s always in the back of my mind not just someone hurting him but sometimes billy gets overwhelmed with images of the rape and has difficulty handling that. So please continue to pray for billy as I know he is very strong, reziliant, and has so much to look forward to in life and I am so grateful for the progress made. My prayer is that he will also be an example to those who have been through what he has gone through and they can see that the life we are dealt God can do all things through us even in the most difficult times. Please remember us and know that I am fighting to keep billy’s life the same with no drastic changes just routine and focused on the goals that we set. This also means me earning our food and needs each day and believe me God has not disappointed me once. No matter what He has been so faithful and a lot of that is because of those who continually pray for us.

    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

  141. marquis wrote:

    . I’m not sure if this is getting lost in the mix so I thought I would just high light and copy then repost. I hope you all don’t mind. Others post their gofundme’s here as well and although I try not to trample on that i’m hoping others will see and then trust the Lord to do the rest.

    For my part, I don’t mind at all. Every time I post, I wonder the same thing and do trust God to take care of it…and He does. Please post as often as you need to.
    I wish there was more I could do to help. I do pray for you both. Please know, from a CSA survivor, that your reaction to what happened to you son and your ongoing actions on his behalf – being for him, helping him, not blaming him – are immeasurably valuable. I did not have this and as a result, it caused serious issues for me throughout my 20s, 30s, 40s, until I was finally able to look at it and get help from a professional therapist. Even then, not sure I could’ve done it without the support of a dear friend. I pray that you receive the support you need through this. Know that there are many more for you than those against you. Much love to you both.

  142. @ Jeannette Altes:
    Thank you Jeannette Altes….. I appreciate your prayers. Billy has had my support 100% from the moment he was raped! There is never a time when billy isn’t validated and there has never been a moment in time where he has bore the responsibility of what his perpetrator did to him, I won’t allow it. Billy has had specialized counseling from those who specialize in child victims of sex abuse. We left the church and never did I listen to the moronic advice from our former pastor to not get billy that type of help. Anyways he’s coping with this far better than most because of the support he has been given and he has a mother who is walking along side of him through it. Billy has had the wonderful women of this blog support and give him a platform to take a stand against those who would slander and even his abuser who attempted to shame and slander him here. Billy is amazing and my hero.

    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

  143. ZechZav wrote:

    This is to answer the questions by Ken F on the “penal substitution” discussion we were having. I felt it necessary to move this to here as it is a digression from the main point of the original post. Sorry for the long post but I want to answer some questions that were asked.

    ZechZav,

    Sorry to take so long to get back to you. I wanted to find time to give you a thoughtful answer and my week was too busy for anything but short answers. After reading some of your other comments, I think you and I might not be too far from each other in what we believe about PSA.

    I have to congratulate you on being the only person who has made an attempt to answer all of the questions. The runner-up is JeffB who attempted to answer just the first handful a few weeks ago. I’ve sent the questions to a good number of prominent New Calvinist ministries and none have attempted to answer the questions. Most never responded to me. A few responded by trying to prove PSA, but they did not address the questions

    I think it would help if I put my questions into context. I am not pressing for any particular view of the atonement, although right now I am finding what some people call the Classical View the most reasonable and Biblically supported. It’s the view that seems to be taught in Eastern Orthodoxy (EO). It’s very compelling. In my research over the last year and a half, I discovered that all Calvinist teachers/preachers teach PSA as an essential Christian belief. John MacArthur is the most extreme – he said it is the only way to understand the atonement. Others typically describe it as the skeleton or linchpin that hold together all of the other atonement theories. They teach that if you do away with PSA you undermine the gospel. But I cannot find evidence either from the Bible or from church history to substantiate their claims. I’ve had lots of discussions with people about PSA and found they always divert the conversation or conflate issues (more on that below). So I assembled the questions out of frustration. It was my attempt to cut through the chaff and get to the key points. I’ve found that the questions are polarizing – people seem to either love them or hate them. I find that interesting.

    Now I’ll try to address your answers. I find that we very often read into Biblical passage the things we already believe. There are many passages in the Bible that describe the atonement in substitutionary terms. The key issue is the nature of the substitution. Irenaeus wrote, “In His unbounded love, God became what we are that He might make us what He is.” This is substitution as the early church understood and taught it. The church never taught the penal aspect until the time of Calvin (even today, only Protestants believe in PSA). Calvinists assume the substitution is penal, and then use all the verses that describe substitution to prove penal substitution – this is why I say they assume what they try to prove. This point of view has been so often repeated that we tend to fall for it. We need to take a step back and look at what those passages actually say. None of them describe penal substitution. Take another look at the verses you cited and you will find that they say nothing about satisfying God’s wrath, Jesus paying a penalty, etc.

    PSA hangs on the translation of hilasterion as propitiation. But is that the best translation? I learned that it is a disputed translation. Eastern Orthodoxy prefers to translate it as expiation. This is a good article on the translation: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2012/06/22/the-wrath-of-god-satisfied/. Just about every PSA advocate disputes Dodd’s analysis, but it’s still worth considering. You can also search on “eastern orthodox god’s wrath” to get other explanations. The bottom line is propitiation is a disputed translation as best, and should not be the linchpin to hold together an essential doctrine.

    Whenever I get into discussion with a PSA advocate, their first charge is to say that I deny the wrath of God. That charge could not be more untrue. The wrath of God is very real and worth learning about. Their assumption is that wrath must be appeased, which leads to the conclusion that there must be a penalty. So if one denies that a penalty must be paid, they assume that one denies wrath. This is nothing more than sophistry. So much could be written about God’s wrath. I’ve found the EO perspective very compelling. They describe God’s wrath as an expression of his love – but it takes some reading and thinking to see this. One word-picture describes it as the difference between running against the wind and then turning and running with the wind. In the first case, the wind feels like punishment. In the second case if feels like joy. The wind does not change, it’s our turning (repentance) that changes our experience of the wind. God’s wrath is real and fierce, and its purpose is to turn us around. We can resist if we chose, but we don’t have to.

    Question 8 is not a “gotcha” question. Rather, it challenges the assumption that God can be satisfied. One must first suffer lack in order to be satisfied. To teach that God requires satisfaction is to teach that God is lacking something that require satisfaction. But what does God lack? If God is a necessary being, as the Calvinists teach, he cannot lack anything. A necessary being cannot be satisfied. But if God is not the Greco-Roman god described as the unmoved mover and uncaused cause, then that opens the door for him to be able to be satisfied. But doing that would go against their theology of God. But the biggest point is that the Bible nowhere describes God as needing satisfaction.

    Questions 9-14 were framed from the perspective of the PSA advocates. They are very clear in stating that God poured out his wrath on Jesus and that Jesus drank the full cup of God’s wrath down to the last dregs. Everyone one of them describes it in these terms. But I cannot find that language in the Bible. Here is what I consider to be the most pornographic depiction of the crucifixion I have yet found: http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-fathers-cup-good-friday. It is full of blasphemies, but it perfectly describes PSA. This is on John Piper’s website, one of the leading New-Calvinist figures.

    Question 15 goes back to the Irenaeus quote above. Also, Gregory of Nazianzus wrote: “For that which He has not assumed He has not healed; but that which is united to His Godhead is also saved.” I think we both agree that this was the point of the atonement, not paying a penalty.

    Question 16 was meant to show a logical fallacy. Payment and forgiveness are mutually exclusive. The Bible never confuses these.

    Question 17 goes at the heart of PSA. Ask any Calvinist what the penalty is for rejecting God’s offer of forgiveness. It will always be some form of eternal separation from God. So if that is the penalty, and if Jesus paid that penalty for us, how does it not imply that Jesus should be eternally separated from God. Many Calvinists, such as John MacArthur, give a mathematically absurd discussion about Jesus being able to pay an infinite penalty in a finite amount of time because of his infinite nature. Not only is this mathematically impossible, it is not described in the Bible. It is pure speculation.

    Questions 19 and 20 might be the most important. Calvinists completely ignore the Trinity when it comes to the atonement. They cite Psalm 22 as proof that God turned his face away from Jesus. But they need to read the rest of the Psalm, which is an incredibly accurate depiction of the crucifixion. Verse 24 says, “Nor has He hidden His face from him; But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.” Also, 2 Cor 5:19 has this troubling statement: “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.” PSA advocates need to do a better job of describing the crucifixion in terms of the Trinity.

    Calvinists trust in “sola scriptura.” But they don’t apply it when they develop their various doctrines. My questions poked at that. If PSA is true, they should prove it from the Bible, not from fancy arguments.

    For your two final points, I believe that God is very angry about sin and everything that mars his good creation. But that does not mean that PSA is true. And I believe that his wrath and justice are true. However, I believe that PSA is a travesty of justice. The atonement is much bigger than what PSA describes or allows.

    I hope this helps.

  144. Ken F wrote:

    Questions 9-14 were framed from the perspective of the PSA advocates. They are very clear in stating that God poured out his wrath on Jesus and that Jesus drank the full cup of God’s wrath down to the last dregs. Everyone one of them describes it in these terms. But I cannot find that language in the Bible. Here is what I consider to be the most pornographic depiction of the crucifixion I have yet found: http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-fathers-cup-good-friday. It is full of blasphemies, but it perfectly describes PSA. This is on John Piper’s website, one of the leading New-Calvinist figures.

    My goodness. Quite a few liberties taken with that depiction of Jesus’ death.

  145. @ elastigirl :
    They began as a Sisterhood of herbalists and healers. Guardians of what was nearly destroyed during the dark times of mercantile despots and the warlords in their pay. Later, over the centuries, they became practitioners of human potential in terms of mind, body, and spirit as an integral unity.

  146. @ Muff Potter:

    this is cool, Muff. so many questions, here…. i’ll single out 2 discreet ones. how did you become aware of these forest crones? does your native american heritage factor in?

    (hmmmm- is a discreet question nullified if it prompts non-discreet information?)

  147. @ Ken F:
    Ken, I want to thank you for your research. I have copied some of your comments into a file for future reference on atonement theories.

  148. Bridget wrote:

    If Christ died, once, for all, then what is this continued wrath and justice for? If a man or woman rejects Christ, they are separated from God for eternity. Is that not enough punishment? If they believe in Christ, they have an eternity with God.

    And in your mind, where would you consign a soul that followed their conscience the best they could, did right as they saw it according to that conscience, lived humbly and thankfully, and did not know Christ other than the fact that they loved people and cared for them even to the point of giving their lives for others?

    Somewhere between the extremes of committing people to heaven and also to hell, some Christians have forgotten the ones who matter in this world to Our Lord who had compassion on those without a shepherd. These Christians have no trust in Jesus Christ to have mercy. They have little reference in their faith to the concept of the great mercy of God in our world for those ‘who are lost and weary and without a shepherd’. I find this profoundly sad.

  149. Christiane wrote:

    Bridget wrote:
    If Christ died, once, for all, then what is this continued wrath and justice for? If a man or woman rejects Christ, they are separated from God for eternity. Is that not enough punishment? If they believe in Christ, they have an eternity with God.

    Christiane –

    And in your mind, where would you consign a soul that followed their conscience the best they could, did right as they saw it according to that conscience, lived humbly and thankfully, and did not know Christ other than the fact that they loved people and cared for them even to the point of giving their lives for others?
    Somewhere between the extremes of committing people to heaven and also to hell, some Christians have forgotten the ones who matter in this world to Our Lord who had compassion on those without a shepherd. These Christians have no trust in Jesus Christ to have mercy. They have little reference in their faith to the concept of the great mercy of God in our world for those ‘who are lost and weary and without a shepherd’. I find this profoundly sad.

    My response that you quote above was to ZechZav and specifically in regards to what he said here: Bridget wrote:

    1. If we are angry about sin (and I have seen some righteous anger on TWW about the pedophilia, domestic violence and other forms of abuse), then do you deny God that same right to be angry? Is this anger not a reflection of God’s anger.
    2. If there is no wrath and no justice, what justice will Hitler and other notorious murderers face?

    I was pointing to God’s grace and mercy when I responded to ZachZev’s comment, pointing out that God’s wrath and judgment was appeased once, for all, in Christ’s actions at the cross and why do some people feel there is a need for more? I don’t understand why you take my response as my total thoughts on salvation and how it might work? But since you ask . . .

    “In my mind” I consign no one to heaven or hell(.) It is not my job to do any such thing. In my mind, I hope that all would spend eternity in the presence of God. So I hope you have not consigned me to those “some Christians have forgotten the ones who matter in this world to Our Lord who had compassion on those without a shepherd. These Christians have no trust in Jesus Christ to have mercy. They have little reference in their faith to the concept of the great mercy of God in our world for those ‘who are lost and weary and without a shepherd’. I find this profoundly sad.”

    To be clear, I most certainly do have trust in Christ to have mercy, as I also eluded to in my comment to ZachZev.

  150. Ken F wrote:

    Here is what I consider to be the most pornographic depiction of the crucifixion I have yet found: http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-fathers-cup-good-friday. It is full of blasphemies, but it perfectly describes PSA.

    That was so nauseating, I had a hard time finishing it, needless to say, that is not how I picture the atonement. Most offensive to me, though, is that the author had no right to put his own words in God’s mouth. He insinuated himself into a position no man has knowledge of. To imagine himself capable of elucidating the unrevealed dialog between God the Father and Christ… audacity.

  151. By way of contribution to this very thought-provoking and broad discussion on theAtonement in general, and penalSubstitutionaryAtonement in particular, I beg to suggest a cultural factor that has had a significant part to play.

    I’m referring to the practice of “altar-call evangelism” and the hugely inflated (one might say, sacramental) importance that has become attached to “the sinner’s prayer”. Historically, this has been wrapped up in the practice of “bungee-evangelists” who would bounce into an area, hold some tent crusades, by one means or another persuade a number of people to make “decisions for Christ”, and then move on. There are many variants on this theme (many churches routinely have altar-calls as part of their main meetings). But the idea in each case is to make it as easy as possible to enter the system and to maximise the number of people signing up.

    One good way to make this happen is to emphasise how much God will hate you and want, nay, need to send you to hell if you don’t sign up today.

    So, suppose that I come to you representing Jesus. But I can’t heal the sick, raise the dead, perform miracles, or even provide you with decent employment prospects or shelter from social or political oppression. IOW, I can do little, if anything, of what Jesus did. The only good news I have for you is forgiveness (which, conveniently, is difficult either to prove or disprove). So the only way I can sell you this good news of forgiveness is to persuade you that you desperately need it and that it’s the only thing you need.

    I think that’s what lies behind the formulaic pattern of a large number of hymns of a certain vintage:
     V1: I was a wretched sinner
     V2: But then: Oh, ecstasy and bliss! The Lord cleansed me with his redeeming salvation, so filling me with joy that I scream and sob with pleasure at the very thought of it!
     … then nothing else whatsoever will happen (because God’s not interested in the part between my praying the sinner’s prayer and my death) until…
     V3: And when Jesus comes back I’ll go to heaven and be saved forever!

  152. @ Christiane:

    I don’t know whether or not you are aware of this, but this question has been debated ad nauseum in protestantism. What about those who never heard, to whom the gospel was never presented? The idea that they are lost has been the driving force behind the baptist missions boards and missionaries and supporting churches. If I am correct you have had some good words to say about the idea of missions and about the prior extent of that in some of your criticisms of the current policies of the IMB. I do not know if you knew the driving theology behind those missions activities.

    The related question is whether it is enough in the sight of God to be a good person, to follow one’s what you call conscience, or some say inner light, or some say better nature. What if one pours out his life doing good, is that enough; this is debated. Somebody always brings up Gandhi at some point. This becomes in the protestant discourse the issue of works and its role in salvation, or not. There is no doctrine or idea of merit in evangelicalism. If I am correct we are getting very close to some ideas embedded in the reformation itself.

    More recently I run across from time to time people who emphasize the difference between those who have never heard or who are incapable of understanding about Jesus as opposed to those who have heard and who have deliberately rejected Christ while believing that being a good person is sufficient. Again somebody will want to talk about people like Gandhi, as opposed to people in some primitive culture in some remote and yet unreached place. What exactly was Paul meaning to say in Romans 1, for example, always comes into play. And to whom was Jesus referring in his statement about the judgment and who and why heard enter in as opposed to I never knew you was always good for a heated debate.

    In fact, in my youth one of the theological shibboleths which showed whether you were one of us, so to speak, was how you answered that question when it came up for discussion. Now, in my personal observation from only personal experience I would guess that many methodists would agree with you, and most baptists would not agree with you, and the calvinists of course have that whole election thing.

  153. @ okrapod:
    Thanks OKRAPOD,
    I did rather suspect that SB’s were of a different opinion on the subject than some mainline Christians, yes. I got that from following comments at SBCvoices years ago. I asked Bridget because she informed me that she had been raised Catholic and I wondered where she stood when I read her remark.
    Thanks again.

  154. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    Hi NICK,
    I suppose some people feel better with that line of reasoning.
    I’ll stick with ‘Jesus, I trust in You’ and
    ‘Holy God, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One, Have Mercy On Us.’
    For me, that works.

    I am certain I would not want that ‘assurance’ thing taken away from those who needed to hold on to that, if it helps them cope and brings them peace.

  155. @ Christiane:

    My point was that PSA as a theory of the atonement, and the “sign here for your ticket to heaven” model of evangelism, have reinforced each other over recent generations. I’m not entirely clear what you mean here.

    I suppose some people feel better with that line of reasoning.

    To what line of reasoning do you refer here?

  156. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    To what line of reasoning do you refer here?

    Hi Nick,
    that ‘assurance’ thing where no matter what they do or become, once saved, always saved

    it seems to ignore ‘making shipwreck of your faith’ as a warning to pay attention to the compass of one’s conscience

  157. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    My point was that PSA as a theory of the atonement, and the “sign here for your ticket to heaven” model of evangelism, have reinforced each other over recent generations.

    Hi NICK,
    what set this cycle in motion? was there a specific teacher or denomination that started it?

  158. @ siteseer:

    Just read it. Wow. Yes, provides excellent resources to research. This made me think:

    “In the NT “God is not spoken of as the recipient of what is referred to” … that is, nowhere in the NT, when the recipient of this action of these words is mentioned, is God the one who receives the action. For the word to mean “propitiate” or to “appease God” God must be the recipient; nowhere in the NT, when the word is used, is God the recipient.”

    Once again, on a very important topic concerning not only Gods character but Jesus’ function within the Trinity, trouble with interpretation of proof texting rears its head.

  159. @ Christiane:

    Back attya Christiane! Thanks for your reply; now I see what you mean.

    What set it in motion is a good question, and I’m afraid I can offer little more than educated guesswork – other Wartburgers will be able to improve on the following.

    Over the centuries, I suspect it’s relatively rare to see both widespread altar-calls and infant baptism in the same denomination – certainly where you have a state church (such as the C of E, at least up until a few decades ago) and/or where church attendance is culturally traditional. By the same token, it’s probable that denominations practicing infant baptism are historically less likely to emphasise the altar call. (By “are less likely to emphasise”, I don’t mean “never do”, obviously.)

    I do know that George Whitfield made a very big thing out of altar calls, and that the 18th-centurry Great Awakening saw a lot of them in general. A contemporary apparently said that he “would give 100 guineas if I could sah ‘Oh’ like Mr Whitfield” – said contemporary was an actor, and I think his statement is instructive. Much more could be said, but I’m on a laptop that is running out of battery!

  160. Lydia wrote:

    Once again, on a very important topic concerning not only Gods character but Jesus’ function within the Trinity, trouble with interpretation of proof texting rears its head.

    Very good points you make. PSA attacks the nature and character of God. But it’s advocates counter that we are in no position to judge God. They not only accept a twisted view of God, but they argue that it’s good. And they can proof-text their way to that conclusion.

    I should have thought about this earlier, but there is another big logical problem with PSA. Thomas Aquinas argued that God is pure actuality with no potentiality. It’s a heavy argument to work through, but you will find it in most apologetics books that discuss the nature of reality. The key point is that God, as a necessary being, can have no potentiality because it would mean that he can change and would therefore not be infinite (only contingent (created) beings can possess potentiality).

    PSA is described in terms of propitiation, which is the Latin translation of hilasterion. Propitiate literally means “to make favorable.” PSA teaches that God became angry with mankind at the fall, but Jesus’ sacrifice was a propitiation that made God favorable toward mankind once again. This means that the god of PSA has the potential to become unfavorable and the potential to become favorable. Or in terms of satisfaction, the god of PSA has the potential to become satisfied and the potential to become unsatisfied. Such a being would not be God because God must be a necessary being with no potentiality. Does this make sense?

    So if PSA is true, then God is merely a created being. But if God is not a created being, then PSA is false. Are there any other options?

  161. Ken F,

    Thanks for your reply. I have not had chance to get to it in the last few days as I have been feeling ill. I will take time to come back on this. I appreciated this comment “I find that we very often read into Biblical passage the things we already believe.” This is so true. Most churches have dogmas which vary from one denomination to another and penal substitution is one of them. Others dogmas include six-day creationism, Calvinism, dispensationalism, cessationism/spiritual gifts, legalism about sex and marriage, judgmentalism about playing cards, drinking beer or dancing. Having been brought up in a fundamentalist environment, in the last few years I have had to re-examine a lot of beliefs I took for granted. I believed many of them because I had not done enough homework of my own and accepted what you may call “the traditions of the elders”. People who were spiritually older than me, just like a child believes their parents. But they are all human and make mistakes. This is why I appreciate discussions like this to challenge your thinking. It causes you to examine what you believe closely, which either makes your belief stronger or you change your views.

    I also appreciated this point: “I believe that God is very angry about sin and everything that mars his good creation. But that does not mean that PSA is true. And I believe that his wrath and justice are true. However, I believe that PSA is a travesty of justice. The atonement is much bigger than what PSA describes or allows.”

    It is this doctrine of God’s anger about sin that I am actually defending, not PSA. You probably gleaned that from my other comments, and my main concern was the downplaying of it that I sensed with Steve Chalke’s book. I believe God is is a very emotional God, and I believe he is both just and loving. In fact, the two are very much tied together because what makes God angry is injustice against other human beings. When you read the the Old Testament prophets, God is angry with bloodshed, violence, theft and other injustices. The only exception I can think of is idolatry, which is offensive to God. I used to enjoy reading John MacArthur’s books although I have lost respect for him in recent years. I vomit at the thought of reading anything by John Piper. I will come back and reply more as time permits in the next few days.

  162. Ken F wrote:

    PSA attacks the nature and character of God. But it’s advocates counter that we are in no position to judge God.

    but THEY (the PSA folk) have judged God. And they didn’t view Him through the Person of Jesus Christ Who is the clearest revelation we have of God.

    Their argument falls before that truth.

  163. @ Ken F:
    Ken, one of the things I picked up on conversing with YRR early on is that nothing of God can be about His created beings who are worms except a few special anointed worms that teach the other worms and must be obeyed. Any other belief is declared as man centered. It is sort of amusing in a cognitive dissonance way once you catch on to it. They are so adamant about the lack of human volition they end up turning God into a monster who only cares about His Glory and is a narcissist who must be satisfied. I can only describe it as too close to Greek Paganism to be comfortable. And that is how I view PSA.

    I had never viewed PSA as God “receiving”. But that is exactly what it is! I have always viewed the atonement as humans being able to “recieve” from God if they so choose. It really boils down to their insistence we are unable to choose so God chose some before we were even created. We have a total Lack of volition unless it is described within the narrow boundaries of compatablism.

    I have heard the argument about the “potentiality” of God before but never dug in. If you think about it, it still reigns outside of the PSA theory in some ways. How often is the focus on our pleasing God or to be careful you don’t displease God? He is ever changing on a dime from love to wrath.

    We are to be the ones ‘changing’. I liked the analogy of the wind. Running against it or “turning” and running with it. That “turning” fits the concept of metanoia perfectly. Sadly it was translated as repentance which comes from the idea of penance and misses the point entirely.

    How often do we hear we have “God given at creation ability and responsibility”? Very little. How often do we hear we have the ability to join Jesus Christ in His work with The Father? That is blasphemy to Neo Cals.

  164. Here is where I am at today. My heart hurts as my brother-in-law passed last night. In the midst of this, life will not pause and so I still need help with bills for this month.
    October’s rent is paid and I have funds for food this week, but October bills begin coming due beginning next week and total $500. I will also continue to need food and gas money.
    Thank you all so much for your help and prayers. I would not make it through this without them.
    Please remember my sister in your prayers, as well. Thank you.

    http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

  165. ZechZav wrote:

    This is why I appreciate discussions like this to challenge your thinking. It causes you to examine what you believe closely, which either makes your belief stronger or you change your views.

    I love this type of dialogue, but it seems to make me a weirdo in most situations. So I don’t often talk about this stuff unless others express a desire. Folks on this site seem very willing to roll up their sleeves and work through topics like this.

    I became a fan of Steve McVey more than 20 years ago after I read “Grace Walk.” Here’s an interview I stumbled across about a year ago where he describes God’s wrath: https://www.gci.org/YI112 (you can click on the transcript of you don’t want to watch or listen – his Southern accent is pretty thick). His view seems very consistent with the EO view. I’m glad I found information like this – it is completely changing my view of God, for the better.

  166. ZechZav wrote:

    I used to enjoy reading John MacArthur’s books although I have lost respect for him in recent years.

    Sounds like you are on track. Here is something he wrote about PSA: “however, the ultimate reality is that believers have been saved from God.” (http://www.gty.org/blog/B131002/heavens-perspective-on-the-cross-satisfaction). How does one get to having such a blasphemous view of God?!? The early church believed that we are saved from sin, death, and Satan/evil. Is this what he equates with God?

  167. Lydia wrote:

    He is ever changing on a dime from love to wrath.

    Your comments are great. This belief about God you stated in what I quoted from you comes from Greco-Roman thinking. It’s not the God revealed in the Bible.

    One of the theologians making the most sense to me right now is Baxter Kruger (see http://perichoresis.org/). He keeps bringing it back to what the early church believed. Good stuff to help un-do my years of being taught more along the lines of what YRRs are now teaching. I feel like I’ve been rescued from a very bad view of God. And I feel like I can breathe again.

  168. Ken F wrote:

    The early church believed that we are saved from sin, death, and Satan/evil. Is this what he equates with God?

    For the life of me, Ken, I don’t see where the problem lies. You are saying, among other things, that one is saved from death. I am using this one thing merely as an example. I suppose you mean by the substitutionary death of Christ. But wait, where does this death of humanity come from? From God. as in ‘the day that you eat of it you will surely die’ and as in ‘the wages of sin is death’. So if one is saved from death how is this not being saved from the judgment of God due to sin since that judgment of God is what this kind of death is?

    Or if the issue is the attitude of God, as in what? angry /sad vs happy? Or heaven forbid an attitude of not giving a rip? If sin was never God’s idea in the first place, and if man by sin staged a rebellion against God, and if God in his justice rendered a judgment of death because of this sin, how on earth would anybody think he would be happy about that? And if God in order to resolve the problem offered himself in the person of Christ as the sacrifice for that sin and thereby conquered death as witnessed to by the resurrection, how is that unthinkable thing not God saving man from His own judgment without in any way compromising His justice? How is that not God exercising his own just judgment against himself since it would have totally destroyed us (since we would be dead) and it did not destroy him since God is life and cannot die. So, the death of Christ was our death, not the death of God, and it was Christ who died our death in our place.

    I think that is the most incredibly awesome thing I ever heard, and something I would never have thought up. But I do not see what the problem is. Now, was it more than just about death? Sure, like you have said. I have used the death issue for example because it cuts to the heart of the issue. Are there other ways also, not instead of, to look at it? The history of the church over the centuries has proposed several other ways and lots of nuances. Does the fact that it gets way too complicated for humanity to fully understand at this point then mean that we know nothing at all about it? Well, why would it?

    Well, anyhow, for me all the theories of the atonement have something to add to humanity trying to understand the puzzle, the mystery.

  169. @ Christiane:

    What I exactly said was : ‘Now, was it more than just about death? Sure, like you have said. ‘ So I am thinking that makes Ken and you and me and probably everybody here to at least agree on that point. I think we probably do not all agree exactly as to what all else it was and may not exactly prioritize everything the same way, but I think we all come pretty close. This is a good thing.

  170. okrapod wrote:

    For the life of me, Ken, I don’t see where the problem lies. You are saying, among other things, that one is saved from death. I am using this one thing merely as an example. I suppose you mean by the substitutionary death of Christ. But wait, where does this death of humanity come from? From God. as in ‘the day that you eat of it you will surely die’ and as in ‘the wages of sin is death’. So if one is saved from death how is this not being saved from the judgment of God due to sin since that judgment of God is what this kind of death is?

    These are great questions. I wrestled hard with questions like these about a year ago. During the process my thinking completely changed as I gathered ideas from other Christian traditions, especially the early church.

    We in the West have been so steeped in a legal/forensic/judicial sense of the atonement that we have difficulty seeing it any other way. It causes us to assume that the Bible says things it does not say. For example, God never told Adam that he would kill him if he ate the fruit. Likewise, after the fall, we don’t see a change in God that causes him to storm off in a huff or to turn away his face from Adam and Eve. We find Adam and Eve hiding in fear in the Garden. Why? Did God change? Or was it their view of God that changed? God came walking in the Garden just as always, which seems to indicate that it was not God who changed. More importantly, the text says YHWH Elohim walked in the Garden in the Ruach. What an amazing a statement about the Trinity seeking Adam and Eve in their darkness. It says God made clothes from skins for them, but it does not say anything about that being the first animal death, or about whether or not it was a sacrifice. It could be read that way, but the text does not require us to read it in terms of judgement.

    Here is one of the first articles I found that seriously challenged what I used to believe: http://www.pravmir.com/the-original-christian-gospel/. Here is good section:

    So far so good—until the next major assumption is made: that death was the direct result of a punitive sentence pronounced by God. That is, God made a law—“you shall not eat of the fruit, for if you do you will surely die”—and when Adam and Eve broke that law, death resulted from God’s punitive proclamation. That is, God Himself then made them mortal—made them die. The action and resultant punishment are understood as being of a juridical nature. In this non-Orthodox understanding of the Fall, God had no choice but to declare that Adam and Eve would die. The punitive action was demanded by a necessity to which God Himself was bound—the necessity of being just.

    In contrast to this juridical view of the Fall, the biblical Orthodox view holds that when God told Adam he would die if he ate the forbidden fruit, it was a simple statement of fact. The Lord was essentially saying, “If you turn from Me, the only source of life, then death will be the outcome.” God did not say, “I will kill you,” but rather, “you will die.” Because God alone has life in Himself and is the source of all life, only life can come from Him. In turning away from God, the fountain of life, man turned towards death.

    In eating of the fruit, Adam and Eve ceased desiring God. They ceased looking to Him for their sustenance, for their food, and instead ate a fruit, which represents the world. In eating the world, they looked to creation itself for sustenance instead of to God. So in this act, the first parents sought to exclude God from their lives and to live autonomously—independently of God.

    This view seems to be very consistent with everything I can find from what the early church believed. And it’s very different than what was invented 500 years ago and now passed on as an essential reformed doctrine. I don’t believe that acceptance or denial of PSA directly impacts one’s salvation, but it certainly impacts one’s view of God.

  171. okrapod wrote:

    ‘the wages of sin is death’

    I should have also commented on this verse that is often used to support PSA. Wages and judgement are different. I get paid bi-weekly. When I get my wages I never consider it judgement or punishment. It’s more like salvation (kids are almost out of college :-)). Wages are simply what we have earned. When we turn away from life we earn death. The reason we think of wages as punishment is because we have been steeped in a legal way of thinking about sin and atonement. The early church did not view it through this lens, and the Bible does not require it either.

  172. My daugher, Christy (used to write here at Mandy) is in need of prayer. She has been in chronic pain for months due to her having Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome (EDS). Her job is very stressful, which is adding to the problem. She found a doctor yesterday who is going to work with her on solving these issues, along with a team of doctors. But she has to get rid of the stress. She wants us to pray that God will move her into a much stressful job and closer to home. When you live in chronic pain (I also have EDS), it takes a big toll on your life. It changes everything.

  173. @ Ken F:

    Un huh. So if emphasizing consequences is better for you, then do it. There are always those who argue this part of the issue-consequences vs judgment. Either way I do not see how this changes an idea of God as someone who will not tolerate that, is not happy with that, and will go to whatever extremes are necessary. Personally I do not see the difference between consequences and judgment on a practical level.

    For example, a child has been told to refrain from teasing the dog. The child does it anyhow. The parent enforces consequences (in my house we call it that) and the kid is put in time out. The time out is judgment because the parent decided it and executed it, and it is consequences because the action of the child precipitated it. I do not see those ideas as contradictory or even mutually incompatible.

  174. Harley wrote:

    She wants us to pray that God will move her into a much stressful job and closer to home. When you live in chronic pain (I also have EDS), it takes a big toll on your life. It changes everything.

    I will pray for your daughter. My niece has chronic pain, three young boys, and works full time as a nurse practitioner (cardiac/pediatrics) and I have seen how weary she gets. She did get some good help, so I know it is possible to find it. Tell your daughter to be hopeful. Prayers are on their way. And give her a big hug, too. 🙂

  175. Ken F wrote:

    God never told Adam that he would kill him if he ate the fruit. Likewise, after the fall, we don’t see a change in God that causes him to storm off in a huff or to turn away his face from Adam and Eve. We find Adam and Eve hiding in fear in the Garden. Why? Did God change? Or was it their view of God that changed? God came walking in the Garden just as always, which seems to indicate that it was not God who changed. More importantly, the text says YHWH Elohim walked in the Garden in the Ruach. What an amazing a statement about the Trinity seeking Adam and Eve in their darkness. It says God made clothes from skins for them, but it does not say anything about that being the first animal death, or about whether or not it was a sacrifice. It could be read that way, but the text does not require us to read it in terms of judgement.

    What about the end of Genesis 3 where God judges Adam, Eve and the serpent:

    14 So the Lord God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.” 16 To the woman He said: “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.” 17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’: “Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life. 18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”

    Notice how many times in there God says “I will…” God himself puts enmity between the serpent and the woman. God himself “I will greatly multiply your sorrow”. This chapter reads like a judgement, a condemnation and a curse when taken at face value.

    And please comment on Hebrews and Leviticus where it says “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins” and Leviticus 17:11: For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.

    So yes, whilst it does not talk about a legal or penal substitution, it clearly says talks about sacrifice for sins. And let’s leave PSA out of it – I am not interested in whether that doctrine is right or wrong, but I do care what these verses means.

  176. By the way, I hope you all notice that I avoided using the ESV in quoting Genesis 3 – that quote is taken from the New King James Version.

  177. Ken F wrote:

    In eating of the fruit, Adam and Eve ceased desiring God. They ceased looking to Him for their sustenance, for their food, and instead ate a fruit, which represents the world. In eating the world, they looked to creation itself for sustenance instead of to God. So in this act, the first parents sought to exclude God from their lives and to live autonomously—independently of God.

    And how do you think God felt about that? Does not God have a right to be angry and sad at being excluded from their lives? This happens all over the world every single day and we are all guilty. God gives us food, clothing, shelter and so many other blessings we cannot begin to number. From this I have no problem with the view that the cross was to satisfy God’s anger as well as to demonstrate his love. If I was God, I would have poured out wrath on ZachZav long ago because for most of his life, he didn’t acknowledge God’s existence, he never thanked him for anything and he set his affections on idols in his heart (romantic relationships, possessions etc). But now he has repented and, through the blood of Jesus, found forgiveness of his sins and peace with God. We should view it from God’s perspective and see how offensive we have been to him, not how offensive we find his anger.

  178. ZechZav wrote:

    We should view it from God’s perspective and see how offensive we have been to him, not how offensive we find his anger.

    Did you read/hearr the Steve McVey link? That should answer your question. I won’t be able to respond further this evening, but I should have opportunity over the weekend.

  179. My heart and prayers go out to anyone affected by Hurricane Matthew. I’m just sitting here watching the news about this terrible storm.

  180. elastigirl wrote:

    this is cool, Muff. so many questions, here…. i’ll single out 2 discreet ones. how did you become aware of these forest crones? does your native american heritage factor in?

    (hmmmm- is a discreet question nullified if it prompts non-discreet information?)

    Both are fair questions and deserve candid answers. My original comment on this thread was purely fictional — set in the distant and not too distant future. But most good fiction also has its moorings in grains of truth.

    Forest Crones is simply a euphemism for Coven of Witches — good witches that is. Helen Ellerbe’s book The Dark Side of Christian History (non-fiction) chronicles the horrific persecution of wise women, herbalists, and healers by the Medieval Church and even well into the Reformation by patriarchal Protestants.
    She writes:

    “The most common victims of witchcraft accusations were those women who resembled the image of the Crone. As the embodiment of mature feminine power, the old wise woman threatens a structure which acknowledges only force and domination as avenues of power. The Church never tolerated the image of the Crone, even in the first centuries when it assimilated the prevalent images of maiden and mother in the figure of Mary.”

    Thus the archetype of the evil witch-crone got planted into the psyche of Western Christianity. There can be no such thing as a ‘good witch’. All of them are evil, and any craft of theirs is by extension evil, and of course, prohibited by the Scriptures.

    And yes, my Native American origins figure largely in my views on this subject.
    The Wolf River Basin of North Eastern Wisconsin is home to the Menominee people.
    We have a long oral tradition of wise women who in addition to being mothers and primal forces of nature, were also well versed in the forest as both medicine chest and food pantry.

  181. ishy wrote:

    My heart and prayers go out to anyone affected by Hurricane Matthew. I’m just sitting here watching the news about this terrible storm.

    Yes. Me too.

  182. Ken F wrote:

    Did you read/hearr the Steve McVey link? That should answer your question.

    I don’t have time to keep going to one article after another. Like you I am quite busy and I prefer keep discussions on our own thoughts and in our own words. It seems easy to just post a link as answer and I have not been convinced by any of the articles you have linked to so far. They go all around the houses, selectively taking some parts of a passage and ignoring others (the one from the Clarion journal did not explain the verse “the Lord has laid upon him the iniquity of us all” and it left me wondering what the purpose of Jesus coming down to die actually was (if it was not to die for our sins), except to be abused by us. That made no sense to me. The one from McVey does the same. Here is an example:

    <>

    McVey has overlooked the fact that Romans 1 says that “God gave them over” a few times. In Romans 2 Paul speaks of wrath as God’s judgement:

    But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness–indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil”. In Romans 14 Paul says about human authorities: “For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.” Human governments and courts do not simply allow us to live the consequence of our actions – they positively sentence us to a punishment.

    It says here that God is going to give tribulation to anguish to everyone who does evil. God’s anger is clearly direct – read Psalm 2 where it says:

    “1 Why do the nations rage, And the people plot a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying, 3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us.” 4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; The Lord shall hold them in derision. 5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, And distress them in His deep displeasure…Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, And you perish in the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

    It says here that God will have the nations in derision and his wrath is clearly synonymous with anger. The whole book of Revelation is an example, but chapter 14 is terrifying:

    “Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

    The wrath of God results in being tormented for choosing to worship the beast.

    I agree with McVey that God loves us, and I very much value that truth. But I am not going to polarise one doctrine at the expense of another. God is also “a jealous God” and wants our hearts and our devotion to him. I am going to leave the discussion at this point and agree to disagree with you on this issue.

  183. @ Muff Potter:

    neat. very interesting. i take stock in the more alternative of alternative medicine, health, and healing.

    i was way off track…. your initial comment was deliciously mysterious (now THAT aliteration i like!) — i thought reincarnation, perhaps (or something like it). on that topic, all i can say is time and spirit seem quite fluid.

  184. ZechZav wrote:

    I am going to leave the discussion at this point and agree to disagree with you on this issue.

    This is not a topic that can be worked through in sound bites. It really takes some digging into. I’ve found that reading the the reasoning of others thinkers to be very beneficial. Steve McVey’s description is pretty good.

  185. @ elastigirl:

    I believe it’s totally possible to write about things in a literary sense, e.g. reincarnation or what have you, with an open mind. An open mind does not mean that you (generic you) buy into the whole enchilada.

  186. @ Velour:

    Thanks Velour. Grudem, Piper, and Baucham would be terrified of these kinds of women. And if it were in their power, they’d have them eradicated in short order.

    “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live…”

  187. Just an update.
    Still dealing with my brother-in-law’s passing. Continued prayer and love for my sister would be greatly appreciated.
    As to my finances, time does not pause. I still have $450 of bills coming due starting the first of the week. Have money for food into next week, but will need that as well as gas soon, as well.
    Thank each of you so much for your support and love. It mean a great deal to me.

    http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

  188. Muff Potter wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Thanks Velour. Grudem, Piper, and Baucham would be terrified of these kinds of women. And if it were in their power, they’d have them eradicated in short order.
    “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live…”

    Yes, Muff. Operative word “terrified”.

    And they are so full of themselves, those men. Constantly running their mouthes. Constantly giving opinions. You can tell they are used to adoring audiences. They are just insufferable. They really should be quiet — in person, on blogs, etc.

    They need to learn from others.

  189. okrapod wrote:

    For example, a child has been told to refrain from teasing the dog. The child does it anyhow. The parent enforces consequences (in my house we call it that) and the kid is put in time out. The time out is judgment because the parent decided it and executed it, and it is consequences because the action of the child precipitated it. I do not see those ideas as contradictory or even mutually incompatible.

    Sorry for taking so long to reply. I was very busy last week, and did not have access to a decent keyboard until now.

    Your example of disciplining a child is outstanding for demonstrating PSA. Under the PSA paradigm, the parent is infinitely righteous, and therefore infinitely offended by even the slightest offense against the honor of the parent. The slightest disobedience is enough to turn the parent against the child forever. The parent is so offended that they can no longer look at the child with love, only contempt. So offended that they put the child into an endless time-out. So offended that they add excruciating pain as part of the penalty. Nothing can get the child out of that excruciating time-out unless an innocent person stands in for the child. This is the god of PSA. The focus is on punishment to fit the crime. The parent cannot be appeased until someone suffers an infinite punishment.

    What you describe is a much better picture of God. He hates sin because of its effect on his people and his creation. His wrath against sin is real and effective. He goes to great lengths to not only save us from our sin, but also to correct us and discipline us. I think it’s more like a parent screaming “NO!” at a child who is about to do something dangerous such as crossing the street without seeing the oncoming car. His wrath and fury against sin is an expression of his love for us.

    I’ve found that PSA-advocates tend to create false dichotomies. They claim that PSA is the only theory of the atonement that adequately addresses the wrath of God, that adequately addresses sin, that adequately addresses God’s judgement,etc. I’ve found this to be completely false.

    I used to believe in PSA. I can no longer believe in it after the digging I’ve done. I’ve also found that rejecting PDA does not equate with rejecting God’s wrath, judgement, chastisement, etc.

    Thanks for the dialogue. Your good questions help me to think through this.

  190. Still searching for employment with a good company. Beginning to lose heart I’m working everyday during the week getting our food for the day my bills have been pushed out to the end of next week and I just can’t make enough. I spent 6 hours in the heat doing yard work to make 80.00 that went as quickly as I got it. I really need prayer I’m discouraged with the job search, the work I’m doing each day , the gofundme, and just trying to do my best to not give in to giving up. It never use to be like this. Thank you all for your praying for us. I appreciate it so very much. I’m having one of those weeks where the financial pressure is really weighing me down and I don’t know what I’m going to do this week. Please just pray extra work comes in for each day this week so I can cover my bills for the month. I don’t know how I will do it but everything will begin to get shut off by Friday my phone, utilities, water, and trash, my car needs to pass inspection or I can’t drive and insurance. I have been posting gofundme but the amount that came went towards food and gas because that is a constant need. I literally work each day and some of that money is our food for the day. I’m being very transparent here because I’m asking for prayer specifically in these areas especially with a job that can provide steady hours and decent pay to just cover our monthly living expenses. I would love a job that pays a lot more but I’m at a point of I’m just grateful to get something that will provide a decent wage. Thanks for listening.

  191. Dee, Deb,

    Following your statement that you would be looking into the UK based FIEC, you may be interested to read my email to them – it was sent to their office and addressed to John Stevens. These are some portions of it

    ________________________________-

    I was troubled by your article “Why We Are Complimentarian” written some years ago. Again I am not a complimentarian but what troubled me most was that your favourable citation of two celebrity preachers who are offensively misogynistic. Are you are aware of John Piper’s video saying that a woman should “endure being smacked for a night” and “abused for a season” if her husband is “simply hurting her”??? He said that a woman who is not “under the protection” of a male is giving “tacit approval” to be raped! As well as citing these these two men, you use historical tradition to defend your position. Since the church fathers regarded women as “the devil’s gateway” and “temples built on sewers”, am I safe in assuming that you agree with them as well? You have aligned to various people who have some disturbing views on women. Are you aware of these extreme views? If so, why do you promote them?

    I was also disturbed by the FIEC decision to host Mark Dever of the 9 Marks movement. The 9Marks group does not allow people to resign membership but seeks power and control over members. In that link notice this statements:

    “the church must retain the right to refuse someone’s resignation and send them out another way—through excommunication.”

    This is all a rehash of the heavy shepherding movement of the 1970s which Derek Prince and the Fort Lauderdale Five repented of. I was subjected to some of this in my former charismatic church some 20 years ago. The leaders brought in visiting speakers who “imparted a spiritual gift” of falling over backwards, laughing hysterically and making animal noises. I questioned whether this was “a move of the Holy Spirit” and was immediately on the receiving end of some nasty phonecalls from the pastor and threats about “losing my salvation” by “blaspheming the spirit”. I was emotionally blackmailed when I tried to leave and put on a guilt trip. This is nothing new. It is worth noting that John Piper’s church by-laws promote this abuse. The Village Church, affiliated to the Gospel Coalition, practiced a wicked and abusive form of discipline on a women who wanted to divorce her pedophile husband.

    What is your view on this kind of abuse? These things are the very reason I left evangelicalism, and I find it very sad that you are bringing these “damnable heresies” into the FIEC. I am sad to say that I would never attend an FIEC church as long as you are tolerating and promoting this stuff. This is very sad as the FIEC has a great history and heritage which has now been tarnished.

    _____________

    Background links:

    https://fiec.org.uk/what-we-do/strand-blog/why-are-we-complementarian

    https://fiec.org.uk/news/article/growing-healthy-churches

    http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-meaning-of-membership-and-church-accountability

    https://baptistnews.com/article/man-confesses-to-child-porn-church-disciplines-his-wife/#.V-1_iIgrLIU

  192. Clarification on last post: John Piper’s Church By-laws state that:

    “Members who remove from this city, shall supply the church with their new address and apply for a letter of dismissal within one year provided there be a church of the same faith and order in the place to which they move.”

    Notice it does not allow for a resignation, and their “letter of dismissal” is provisional on transfer to a new church. In other words, I read this as meaning that they cannot simply leave.

  193. @ marquis:

    I am praying for you. Sorry I am helping with family expenses right now and don’t have any to spare.

    Could you apply for employment with Target and other places in your area?
    Contact Dress for Success for clothes.

    I never got an email from you and I guess you were busy.

    Think about phoning in to a Debtors Anonymous meeting as they have good support and you could ask for an emergency Pressure Relief Meeting.

  194. ZechZav wrote:

    And please comment on Hebrews and Leviticus where it says “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins” and Leviticus 17:11: For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.

    Even though you said you are leaving this conversation, I did want to answer this one question that I did not have time to properly address.

    My own thinking was deeply immersed in PSA and a legal way of viewing the gospel. I personally had to do quite a lot of reading of other perspective to free myself from the PSA paradigm. I have not yet been able to boil down what I’ve learned into soundbites of sufficient quantity, but I am hoping to be able to do that one day. In the absence of having highly crystallized and pithy phrases, I will refer you to another article that does address your point: http://www.orthodoxconvert.info/Q-A.php?c=Salvation-Blood%20Sacrifices%20and%20Forgiveness. Here is a sample quote:

    In the juridical view of the atonement, the problem is that God cannot forgive us until His divine justice is satisfied. In the Orthodox view of the atonement, it is more like the father of the Prodigal Son who placed no demands for repayment or punishment before he would forgive his son. It is like the master who forgave his servant a lifetime of wages owed him, requiring not one cent of repayment other than to go and do likewise. The issue in Orthodoxy is not whether God is able to forgive; He is always ready to forgive. It is whether we are able to accept and incorporate that forgiveness into our lives. To do that, we have to have His life in us. God needs to free us from the bondage of death. Otherwise, God’s forgiveness is pointless and does us no good.

    For us to obtain a full and complete forgiveness, it requires the shedding of blood. For by the shedding of blood are we able to partake of His life, be released from the bondage of sin and death, and God’s forgiveness of our sins becomes a complete reality in our lives. Until we have that life in us, God’s forgiveness is only an unrealized potential. Accepting His forgiveness freely offered is to unite to Him and live in Him. We do that through the partaking of the blood of Christ and having death pass over us.

    I am not Eastern Orthodox, but I have found their theology to be very compelling – and very old. I hope this helps.

  195. Ken F wrote:

    ZechZav wrote:
    And please comment on Hebrews and Leviticus where it says “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins” and Leviticus 17:11: For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.
    Even though you said you are leaving this conversation, I did want to answer this one question that I did not have time to properly address.
    My own thinking was deeply immersed in PSA and a legal way of viewing the gospel. I personally had to do quite a lot of reading of other perspective to free myself from the PSA paradigm. I have not yet been able to boil down what I’ve learned into soundbites of sufficient quantity, but I am hoping to be able to do that one day. In the absence of having highly crystallized and pithy phrases, I will refer you to another article that does address your point: http://www.orthodoxconvert.info/Q-A.php?c=Salvation-Blood%20Sacrifices%20and%20Forgiveness. Here is a sample quote:
    In the juridical view of the atonement, the problem is that God cannot forgive us until His divine justice is satisfied. In the Orthodox view of the atonement, it is more like the father of the Prodigal Son who placed no demands for repayment or punishment before he would forgive his son. It is like the master who forgave his servant a lifetime of wages owed him, requiring not one cent of repayment other than to go and do likewise. The issue in Orthodoxy is not whether God is able to forgive; He is always ready to forgive. It is whether we are able to accept and incorporate that forgiveness into our lives. To do that, we have to have His life in us. God needs to free us from the bondage of death. Otherwise, God’s forgiveness is pointless and does us no good.
    For us to obtain a full and complete forgiveness, it requires the shedding of blood. For by the shedding of blood are we able to partake of His life, be released from the bondage of sin and death, and God’s forgiveness of our sins becomes a complete reality in our lives. Until we have that life in us, God’s forgiveness is only an unrealized potential. Accepting His forgiveness freely offered is to unite to Him and live in Him. We do that through the partaking of the blood of Christ and having death pass over us.
    I am not Eastern Orthodox, but I have found their theology to be very compelling – and very old. I hope this helps.

    Ken,

    Thank you for getting back to me on this question. Whilst I am not entirely sure about it, I will give it some thought. God is always ready and willing to forgive, and God is love. God is truly wonderful and praiseworthy for this marvellous truth. Incidentally, it never says “God is wrath” or “God is justice” – although it does allude to God’s anger, justice and wrath in many instances.

    Blessings,

    Zech

  196. ZechZav wrote:

    Clarification on last post: John Piper’s Church By-laws state that:

    “Members who remove from this city, shall supply the church with their new address and apply for a letter of dismissal within one year provided there be a church of the same faith and order in the place to which they move.”

    Notice it does not allow for a resignation, and their “letter of dismissal” is provisional on transfer to a new church. In other words, I read this as meaning that they cannot simply leave.

    And if you don’t? Then what? They own you forever?

  197. Toiler wrote:

    And if you don’t? Then what? They own you forever?

    why do people ever willingly get involved with such heavy manipulation?????

  198. Christiane wrote:

    Toiler wrote:
    And if you don’t? Then what? They own you forever?
    why do people ever willingly get involved with such heavy manipulation?????

    My thoughts exactly. I would never sign up to such an agreement and I don’t understand why anyone in their right minds would. As TWW rightly advises, stay away from membership covenants.

  199. Here is the link for the GoFundMe account for Marquis (Shauna) and her son Billy in Texas.
    Their situation is quite critical according to her most recent post on the Open Discussion forum. Their various services will be cut off at the end of the week for non-payment.
    They need help with all bills, rent, food, car insurance, and gasoline.
    Thank you.
    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

  200. Here is the link for the GoFundMe account for Marquis (Shauna) and her son Billy in Texas.
    Their situation is quite critical according to her most recent post on the Open Discussion forum. Their various services will be cut off at the end of the week for non-payment.
    They need help with all bills, rent, food, car insurance, and gasoline.
    Thank you.
    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk
    Note: If you would like to help them tangibly, like a gift card for Wal-Mart or
    a gas card for a station in Texas, please email Deb and Dee for Shuana’s mailing
    address in Texas. (Top of the page here under the Contact section of the website.)
    Thank you.

  201. Adam Borsay wrote:

    Not sure if this is on your radar yet….but…pastor says repentant child molester can be pastor and meet alone with kids….among other things…. Tony Miano is supporting him http://www.biblicalchurchevangelism.org/2016/08/19/a-word-of-explanation/

    I’m not shocked.

    I was excommunicated from my NeoCalvinist church for opposing pastors/elders bringing their friend a Megan’s List child pornographer to church, access to kids, leadership position—because he said a few words about Jesus and like pixie dust was ‘all better’.

  202. Just an update.
    Helping arrange my brother-in-law’s memorial/wake. Please continue to send prayers and love to my sister. Thank you.
    I still have $375 of bills coming due tomorrow. Have money for food through this week, but will need that as well as gas soon. Am still doing a small editing job for a friend that is an author.
    My health is not changing much. Tired a lot.
    Thank each of you so much for your support and love and sending that all to me. There I times it is tangibly felt and words cannot adequately thank you for that. It mean a great deal to me. Love and blessing to you all.

    http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

  203. A pastor/elder at my ex-church Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (Deryk Brown)
    has an article on T4G about unity among elders. Ken F. who posts here apprised me that it was there. I posted three comments on Mr. Brown’s article — and they were up for awhile and they’ve all been scrubbed.

    I was excommunicated from GBFSV on some trumped up charge, as were others before me.
    GBFSV using cultic Thought Reform techniques/heavy-Shepherding.

    “Ken F wrote:
    Velour wrote:
    I submitted my story, but I think Deb has it so you could check with her.
    I don’t know if this is applicable for your upcoming post, but TGC posted a link on their front page today from an elder at your former church: https://fromthestudy.com/2016/10/10/7-practices-for-preserving-unity-among-your-elder-team/.

    Yes, someone just sent it to me on Facebook last night.
    I read it and thought, “Oh it’s Thought Reform” — even of elders. It’s NOT “unity” it’s “uniformity”.
    Interestingly, ex-church members and staff members who left Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley called the pastors/elders the most abusive, screaming, yelling, raging, accusing people that they’ve encountered in any church.
    Pastors/elders who talk about “unity” can’t get along with other people. Go figure!”

  204. This is in response to GSD’s post on Sat., Oct. 15, 2016 at 01:12PM on the Boles thread. I didn’t want to put it there since it isn’t on-topic and is a bit long. I hope no one minds.

    My little story of art and encouragement:

    During the mid-late ’90s I worked in a very nice art gallery. I was offered a job there by one of the owners, both terrific women, when I’d strolled in to hopefully gain inspiration. A friend had asked me to do a painting for one of her classes at the community college and I was stuck. I loved many forms of art (still do) but am not formally trained, so I was thrilled to have the opportunities.

    I had worked at the gallery several months when, one spring day, I was there alone. A very nice man and woman came in to buy a gift. We chatted as I showed them several pieces. The man said he was the pastor at a Baptist church a short distance away and the woman was his wife. I told them that I was a believer as well, and had been since early childhood.

    As we walked and talked, I told the pastor that I wondered if I was wasting my time creating things. After all, couldn’t the Lord use me in better ways? Perhaps I was being selfish when I’d sit up all night, listening to classical music, playing in oil paint and loving the solitude. Maybe I should ditch all that and get really involved in a *real* ministry. However, I had these talents…was I somehow a disgrace to God?

    That pastor looked right at me with a smile and said, “You serve the greatest Creator – the greatest Artist – the One who created this entire universe and everything in it. When you use the gifts and talents He gave you, He is glorified. No, no, don’t quit your art – go for it!”

    Thank the Lord that there are those in the church world who truly *get it*. To this day I keep that lovely man and his wife in my thoughts and prayers.

  205. That is brilliant. Thank you, Talmidah. The Scriptures tell us that God is Love, and God is Light. But the Creation screams that God is an Artist.

    I’ve been thinking about this subject, as our small town becomes increasingly artsy. We have an artist relocation program that has been fairly successful, and it’s changed the nature of the historic district. But artists are a different bunch, and I can see how the traditional church has a hard time making these free spirits feel at home.

  206. GSD wrote:

    But artists are a different bunch, and I can see how the traditional church has a hard time making these free spirits feel at home.

    Can you share why you see this?

  207. Estelle wrote:

    @ Talmidah:
    If memory serves me correctly, the first people mentioned in the bible to be filled with the Spirit were the artists who worked on the first Tabernacle in the wilderness. https://thewholedangthing.wordpress.com/2011/08/15/exodus-31-the-resident-artist/

    You may find the blog post interesting and the one on Exodus 26.

    Now that is a great link! I also went to the one by Alise Wright on Exodus 26 within that post. Excellent stuff which I want to read and re-read – thank you so much, Estelle!

  208. GSD wrote:

    That is brilliant. Thank you, Talmidah. The Scriptures tell us that God is Love, and God is Light. But the Creation screams that God is an Artist.

    I’ve been thinking about this subject, as our small town becomes increasingly artsy. We have an artist relocation program that has been fairly successful, and it’s changed the nature of the historic district. But artists are a different bunch, and I can see how the traditional church has a hard time making these free spirits feel at home.

    Such kind words, GSD – thanks! I’m glad your town is doing something for the artistic crowd and I hope it’s a good thing for everyone.

    Yes, I believe those who love to create often have a hard time in traditional church. I don’t think anyone consciously wants to make artists feel like outcasts (or perhaps some do), but just as a for instance, when I was younger I did my best stuff in the middle of the night when all was quiet…painting, drawing, writing, whatever. That’s hard for folks in 9-5 type situations to understand. I’m sure that some people thought I was lazy because I often slept late, lol. The creative process has to be nurtured no matter the hour. Many just don’t understand this, but that’s OK. The fact that God made us all different helps make the world go round.

  209. Estelle wrote:

    @ Talmidah:
    If memory serves me correctly, the first people mentioned in the bible to be filled with the Spirit were the artists who worked on the first Tabernacle in the wilderness. https://thewholedangthing.wordpress.com/2011/08/15/exodus-31-the-resident-artist/

    You may find the blog post interesting and the one on Exodus 26.

    I love this – what a great bottom line:

    “God needs your talents today. If you have an artistic flair, he wants it. If you have a head for numbers, he wants it. If you can teach or sing or write or bake or clean or organize, there’s a place for you. Your gift is not meant to be hidden. There’s work to be done and God is still looking for skilled people to do it.”

    https://thewholedangthing.wordpress.com/2011/07/29/exodus-26-skilled-workers-needed-guest-post-by-alise-wright/

  210. Nancy2 wrote:

    @ Talmidah:
    Now that’s what a pastor should be! Bless him, and you!

    Yes and amein, my sister – bless ya back!

  211. Christiane wrote:

    GSD wrote:

    But artists are a different bunch, and I can see how the traditional church has a hard time making these free spirits feel at home.

    Can you share why you see this?

    Sure, and maybe I’m projecting some of my own experience. Where we live, the churches are pretty polarized, with older denominational churches that are fading slowly, and a couple of Baptist megas. Then there are lots of smaller Baptist and old-school Pentecostal churches scattered around the countryside. At the same time, we have a growing collection of artists in the historic district.

    Some of these folks could find a home in the more liturgical churches, especially the Catholic and Episcopal expressions where you are surrounded by some historic architecture and artwork. But I can’t see many of them fitting in to the megas, or the ARC type plants.

    I have seen some churches in larger cities that would appeal to this group, in larger cities like Nashville. It may just be that we are too small to have enough population base for something like this to work.

  212. @ GSD:
    thank you for responding
    I think the older Catholic and Orthodox Churches would have more visible artforms because, for over a millenium, there were few who could read, and few books, all hand-copied and very expensive. So the visual aspects of a Church interior were a kind of ‘lesson’ in the faith, ie, the stations of the Cross, the stained-glass windows, the architecture itself all would ‘proclaim’ the faith in the absence of literate congregations and the blessings of the printing press. Icons in the East were especially treasured. Oral/visual presentations helped also with passion play dramas and pageant processions. The ceremonies of the Church included actions which ‘told the story’ of what was being celebrated. It was the use of art and architecture and music and drama and liturgy for the sake of a non-literate community. Art can be a very powerful sermon in its own right. I’ve seen the Pieta and there are no words needed for what it teaches us visually. But it speaks to us and moves us and the impact stays with us.

  213. Exactly, Christiane. Art is rightfully part of worship. The Reformation seems to have broken some of this link.

    Anyway, I did want to copy/paste elastigirl’s comments from the Dustin Boles discussion.

    “oh, my goodness…. christian culture is the most repressive place on earth where creativity is concerned. rulesrulesrules, written and unwritten, spoken and unspoken. even if these rules don’t explicitly codify artistic expression, the whole climate is fear-driven, punctilious, paranoid… Gospel dessicant for drying up the process of creative inspiration.

    christian culture is terrified of inspiration, understanding nothing of the creative inspiration process. too much freedom in it. and we can’t have that, can we.”

  214. @ Talmidah:

    “Perhaps I was being selfish when I’d sit up all night, listening to classical music, playing in oil paint and loving the solitude. Maybe I should ditch all that and get really involved in a *real* ministry. However, I had these talents…was I somehow a disgrace to God?”
    +++++++++++++

    hi, Talmidah. I’ve wondered these things, too. then i remember things like ‘The Nutcracker Suite’ — whenever i hear even just 1 piece from it, i’m changed. the sound of it simply changes the environment. Or many other pieces of music from every genre. Queen’s Bohemian Rhapsody on cello. Vince Guaraldi. (I could go on for hours here, naming fabulous music) I’m sure plant and animal life respond to these things, their health improved by these things.

    Visual art — i am completely changed by spending time looking at visual art. i am more joyful, more peaceful, more envigorated, more motivated.

    these things matter.

    it’s kind of like…. imagine life without birds. or other animals. it would be so much more…. dull. (a ridiculous what if)

    art nurtures things that are alive. enables living things to better flourish. makes life on earth interesting and invigorating.

  215. @ GSD:

    thanks GSD! and we could go on… how about christian culture’s championing of the extrovert? guiltifying people for the outrage of never having ‘led someone to Christ’. outreach-a-rama, at all times, wherever you are. friendly and outgoing, never miss an opportunity. people people people.

    where’s the time to be quiet? To unwind, unravel in solitude? to feed your inner self the way only you know how to do? to let the artesian well of creative inspiration begin to bubble, then well up, then start taking shape partly of its own accord as i steward it with my skills…

    my time in church just killed me. every ounce of my natural-born me was bound and gagged and not permitted to come out because she wasn’t useful. didn’t contribute to the church’s bottom line of people and more people, processed into the machine.

    the clear message was that God wanted me to be someone else: this ideal culturally engineered female, reaching out to people people people and volunteering many hours every week doing task task task because this is what God wants. and surely if Jesus subjected himself to being battered and bruised and hanging on a cross surely i can do this.

    so, you see, i have no problem saying fu#* now, to the whole thing. I’ve just had enough.

    (God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are the bees’ knees & still good in my books…. just not the sick & dysfunctional institution)

  216. elastigirl wrote:

    my time in church just killed me. every ounce of my natural-born me was bound and gagged and not permitted to come out because she wasn’t useful.

    Your comment was breathtakingly honest. Thank you so much. Wow.

  217. elastigirl wrote:

    gagged

    Love so much of this. The church has always been a struggle for me. I felt completely bound and shoved into a box of their liking. It almost killed me. Introverts not allowed here! Kick that nasty habit of being yourself cause we can’t use that here. Be someone else!

  218. elastigirl wrote:

    it’s kind of like…. imagine life without birds. or other animals. it would be so much more…. dull. (a ridiculous what if)

    art nurtures things that are alive. enables living things to better flourish. makes life on earth interesting and invigorating.

    elastigirl wrote:

    …bound and gagged…

    (God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are the bees’ knees & still good in my books…. just not the sick & dysfunctional institution)

    – – – – –

    (Sheesh – I hope the quoting came out coherently – I am no expert at this!)

    Elastigirl, I can really relate to what you’ve written, and I also appreciate your honesty. The same goes for the others who responded to your excellent posts. Thank you.

    Personally, I never liked going to church as an adult. As a kid, I just wanted to hear about Jesus. I haven’t been in many years but I’m ready to go back and trying not to beat myself up too hard for staying away. I may not be great at formatting, but I do guilt like a champ.

    The main reason I’ve been out of church is that no one, and I mean NO one, could answer the questions I had regarding scripture. I felt stifled as an individual as you did, but tried not to let that bother me too much.

    I had questions like, how did people get saved in the Old Testament?…do babies go to heaven if they’re stillborn?…stuff like that. I laugh to myself about it now, but then I stop when I realize that people still struggle with those issues, and so many more.

    When I’d ask a question in church, maybe to a pastor, they’d give me a fatherly chuckle and then give me a non-answer. Mainly something like, “Yeah, that’s a tough one!” and then change the subject. I was starving for meat and got milk, or nothing at all.

    The last time I went to church was like a pep rally, and I realized that much of my time in church had felt like that. I was not cut out to be a cheerleader, and a church should not feel like junior high school. I wanted to learn what the Bible really said. I instinctively knew that proper study was the only way to do that, and that meant knowledge of the ancient languages and culture and so on.

    So, after a few years, when I got my first computer, off I went. The internet has been such an answer to prayer. Wow, the stuff I’ve learned. My self-education continues, and I now know that it’s OK to question what even a pastor or some other *leader* might say. Before, that terrified me. My, how things have changed.

    I may be without power for a day or so while our well is being repaired, so if anyone responds and I don’t answer, please bear with me – this is an important topic for me. I’m a long-time reader here but a new commenter and don’t want to appear rude. 🙂

  219. elastigirl wrote:

    art nurtures things that are alive. enables living things to better flourish. makes life on earth interesting and invigorating.

    What would make a church more accommodating to artists? Good art. Visual, musical, dance, motion, sculpture, digital, architectural…

    Or at least an absence of bad art.

    A friend of mine walked into a new church with a teenager, and asked them what the space reminded him of. The teenager, looked around and replied,”My grandma’s house.” I’m wondering if the carpet was still 1980s mauve.

    The way we value art and design says a lot about how we value artists and designers. The fact may be that the church doesn’t have the money to paint and refurbish, but artists still get the impression that the church doesn’t see design as a priority.

    Thanks guys, I had to get that out of my brainspace. This conversation is sparking some good ideas.

  220. @ GSD:

    “What would make a church more accommodating to artists? Good art. Visual, musical, dance, motion, sculpture, digital, architectural…”
    +++++++++++++

    well, surely pleasant surroundings (that smell clean!) are a plus. Old school church facilities (stained glass windows, old carpet, stereotypical stage set-up for choir, etc., old-fashioned bathrooms,…) are lemons, and all you can do is make lemonade.

    in all honesty, nothing will make church more accommodating to artists. even the very act of trying is self-defeating. it’s like trying to hard to make a friendship work. it’s just not real — it’s staged. Pretend.

    art just happens. you have to give place to it. an artist may have to make an appointment with theirself to give it opportunity, and to turn the key in the ignition (so to speak) to get it started. But just like physical fitness, once it’s been happening regularly it happens more and more easily, and at some point just takes on a life of its own. the artist just stewards it, interjecting at will, sometimes scrapping that in favor of what creative inspiration seems to want to do.

    God Holy Spirit can infuse inspiration and the artist and the connection between the two, and help bring about the arrival of “THIS IS IT!!”– the perfection the artist is is on a quest for. it won’t necessarily be pretty or even look like what we would expect of God. it might appear chaotic, might be grotesque, might be depressing, angry, might have erotic tones, show the unclothed human form,… whatever it is, it will be honest. 100% honest.

    The point is art — true art, without compromise. Art for its own sake. Not art for the church’s sake, or art for the sake of christians, or art for the pastor’s sake, or art for the sake of God.

    indeed….indeed…art for its own sake, done on its own terms, will accomplish everything. will impact people as only it can do. is God’s vehicle for impacting people.

    it doesn’t happen without complete freedom.

    church culture is anything but freedom. the code of expectations is too rigid. and too powerful. and church doesn’t do 100% honest. makes people uncomfortable. which wrecks the church’s mission (church as we know it, at least).

    some years ago the church i was going to wanted to incorporate the arts. i respected their desire. but it couldn’t help but be strained. there were a few skilled dancers. they put together a great performance. however they wore these bib-type things to disguise the human form — was a total distraction, looked ridiculous, completely compromised the whole thing. part of dance is beauty created by the movement of the human body. you have to be able to see the human body. church and christian culture is terrified of the human body.

    church and christian culture is terrified of every impulse except one of benign happiness. not an environment conducive to art happening or art being received.

  221. @ elastigirl:

    “it doesn’t happen without complete freedom.”
    +++++++++++

    the artist imposes the boundaries. boundaries of highly skilled technique. pushing the boundaries at times. experimenting with boundaries sometimes.

    ideology better keep its hands off this process.

  222. @ elastigirl:

    “church and christian culture is terrified of every impulse except one of benign happiness.”
    +++++++++++

    forgot guilt. church and christian culture like that one, too. That’s it, one or the other.

    (so preposterous, really)

  223. @ elastigirl:

    ““it doesn’t happen without complete freedom.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    one other thought.

    It’s the resistance that brings out the creativity.

    there may be structure imposed on inspiration — Michelangelo, we want you to paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel

  224. @ elastigirl:

    (hit enter by accident)

    …..because we feel threatened by you and want to see you fail.

    talk about resistance. and assault to freedom. and an enormous ceiling, no less.

    but i imagine he found freedom within those confines and inspiration happened.

    perhaps i’m contradicting myself. i don’t think so — artistic inspiration, like a person, is complex. it think it is a person.

  225. velour sorry it has taken me so long to get back on here with you I just saw your messages. I got some nice clothes to interview in. I took your advice and utilized a service for women trying to get back into the work force. I am going on job interviews but utilities and necessities are needed desperately. Just pray about this and that others see the gofundme. Its difficult to keep posting that as I am trying to maintain with out it unfortunately it is a dire need right now. Just pray that God will provide I am utilizing every service I can within the realm of what I do make its just not enough which is why I am aggressively persuing work so I don’t have to do this much longer. Thank you for all your support here billy is doing much better.
    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

  226. Marquis, I hope to be able to contribute something ASAP. I’ll have to talk to my husband. He’s also a believer and we’ve been helping a young woman whose husband is in prison, among others. She has a baby and is in a real mess. Trust me, I personally know what it’s like to scrape by. It’s so hard. Hang in there and know that God and your sisters and brothers in Yeshua care deeply. I’m so glad Billy’s doing better. May you soon enjoy prosperity!

  227. Talmidah wrote:

    Marquis, I hope to be able to contribute something ASAP. I’ll have to talk to my husband. He’s also a believer and we’ve been helping a young woman whose husband is in prison, among others. She has a baby and is in a real mess. Trust me, I personally know what it’s like to scrape by. It’s so hard. Hang in there and know that God and your sisters and brothers in Yeshua care deeply. I’m so glad Billy’s doing better. May you soon enjoy prosperity!

    Your so sweet, is there anything I can do to help her? What are her needs? I have stuff here we don’t use that may be of use to her.

  228. marquis wrote:

    velour sorry it has taken me so long to get back on here with you I just saw your messages. I got some nice clothes to interview in. I took your advice and utilized a service for women trying to get back into the work force. I am going on job interviews but utilities and necessities are needed desperately. Just pray about this and that others see the gofundme. Its difficult to keep posting that as I am trying to maintain with out it unfortunately it is a dire need right now. Just pray that God will provide I am utilizing every service I can within the realm of what I do make its just not enough which is why I am aggressively persuing work so I don’t have to do this much longer. Thank you for all your support here billy is doing much better.
    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

    Thanks for the update, Marquis.

    Praying for you. Sorry I don’t have extra to contribute to the fund due to some medical expenses.

  229. Adam Borsay wrote:

    Not sure if this is on your radar yet

    I’ve been making my way through this article and it is deeply disturbing! I don’t really know how that Tony guy is, though. Was he a street preacher?

    Look at this weirdness:

    every email Tony sends has this exemplary notice at the bottom:
    NOTICE: Due to the nature of my ministry and the vital importance of protecting my marriage, any and all communications with members of the opposite sex are subject to the review and response of my wife.

    This was listed as laudable, but it reads like ‘protesting too much’ to me.

    BTW, on the topic of art in church, one of the things I like about my church is that the music and choir are fantastic. Someone even played a non-religious jazz piece a few weeks ago. I was looking at the program and thought, wait, what? But it was really good.

  230. elastigirl wrote:

    some years ago the church i was going to wanted to incorporate the arts. i respected their desire. but it couldn’t help but be strained. there were a few skilled dancers. they put together a great performance. however they wore these bib-type things to disguise the human form — was a total distraction, looked ridiculous, completely compromised the whole thing. part of dance is beauty created by the movement of the human body. you have to be able to see the human body. church and christian culture is terrified of the human body.

    This is both sad and galling at the same time. You’re right, they really are terrified of the human body and especially the female form. It’s ironic too because in order to bring himself into this world, God chose the woman’s genome to work with over many centuries so that the final result (Jesus as Messiah) would not require human male DNA as a component.

  231. Talmidah wrote:

    So, after a few years, when I got my first computer, off I went. The internet has been such an answer to prayer. Wow, the stuff I’ve learned. My self-education continues, and I now know that it’s OK to question what even a pastor or some other *leader* might say. Before, that terrified me. My, how things have changed.

    Change is a good thing. I began my journey out of fundagelicalism shortly before the turn of the century. I now believe that the Bible ‘teaches’ only two things:

    1) Be a Mensch (Yiddish for ‘good person’).

    2) Don’t do the kinds of things to others that you wouldn’t want done to yourself.

  232. marquis wrote:

    Talmidah wrote:

    Marquis, I hope to be able to contribute something ASAP. I’ll have to talk to my husband. He’s also a believer and we’ve been helping a young woman whose husband is in prison, among others. She has a baby and is in a real mess. Trust me, I personally know what it’s like to scrape by. It’s so hard. Hang in there and know that God and your sisters and brothers in Yeshua care deeply. I’m so glad Billy’s doing better. May you soon enjoy prosperity!

    Your so sweet, is there anything I can do to help her? What are her needs? I have stuff here we don’t use that may be of use to her.

    You’re an angel, Marquis. Right now her needs are mainly help with utilities and diapers. I’ll let you know if she needs anything else. Bless you!

  233. Here is the latest update.
    My brother-in-law’s memorial and wake went well. Please continue to remember my sister as she grieves and learns to live with his absence. Thank you.
    All of October’s bills have been paid and on time, too. 🙂  Thank you all so much.
    My health is still the same. Was very sore and tired after the memorial. But it was worth it.
    My current need is for food. I have enough for another day or two. After that, gas will be needed next week and then, of course, November’s rent in 2 weeks.
    Again, the words “thank you” seem so inadequate. Your generosity is helping me learn to trust in love.

    http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

  234. Update: I got an offer on the house within 30 days of listing it. The realtor estimated I would walk away with $500. (quite a return on 30 years worth of payments, right?). Then last thursday, the iRS informed me they were putting a lien on the house. My debt is enough that it blows up the sale. I freaked, I mean really freaked. But I had to go to work. I made it through my shift, barely; and only snarled at one person. He’s a floater and an idiot so I didn’t feeel too bad.

    But my little brain was processing while I was saying Welcome to W_____, Have you had your flu shot this year? I realized that it was possible that I could force a short sale, get the IRS paid off and 90% of the mortgage debt. Any remaining debt may or not be taxed but not until 2018. So I started doing research. One of the things I’ve learned is it’s dangerous to assume I know what I’m doing.

    So here is where things stand. I have to be 3 months past due to force a short sale. Therefore, I am not going to make any more house payments. I will save that money and start building a nest egg so I can rent a decent apartment when done. I will stay here until they tell me to get out which will be next year at the earliest.

    I took all my cash out of the bank so the IRS can’t get it and will be learning how to live in a cash only economy. That will be really interesting. Fortunately, I have a dear friend who is going to let me use one of her accounts to clear checks and everything. I have an important exam on November 3, but after that I can really concentrate on earning some money through Uber and stashing it away. And then once school is out I hope I can pick up lots of shifts while everyone wants to take time off for the holidays.

    I was really ready to just give up on Thursday am. But I am trying to focus on positive things and I feel that this lien thing actually showed me a different path to get out of my troubles. So maybe your prayers and kind thoughts are working.

  235. @Jeannette Altes

    @nmgirl

    Jeannette and nmgirl, just wanted to let you know that I’ve kept you in prayer as I have all others here in need. May the Lord enable you to soon live in abundance. Bless you.

  236. I would like to know if anyone out there attends a Harvest Bible Chapel anywhere in the US and had problems with the church. If so, what kind of issues came up? What were your experiences?

  237. @ just as i am:
    Please put in Harvest Bible into our search engine on the 1st page. You will see several articles. Let me know if I can be of further help.

    Also, since you are looking for something specific, if you need out help, please post on the newest post where we can see it. Better yet, email us.

  238. @ Talmidah from the Daubenmire thread:

    “Has patriarchy always been a real *thing* in Calvary Chapel? You mentioned two decades. What was your experience, if you have time to share?”

    Fair question and it deserves a candid answer.
    I got reeled into the Calvary Chapel sect as a young Army vet during the wind-down of the Vietnam Era. Back then Papa Chuck was in his prime heyday and could pack em’ in like nobody’s business. He had all the answers that …a generation lost in space… (apologies to Don McLean) craved, everything from how to avoid the fires of hell all the way up to and including how to get raptured outta’ here and beat the anti-Christ too. They were really big on end-times stuff back then, and some of the old guard are still heavily into it today.

    After 20 years of the same old authoritarian molasses, cognitive dissonance took over, and I made my escape. I haven’t looked back.
    Calvary Chapel is not a place for free-thinkers and dissidents.

    And yes they are heavily into patriarchy and gender roles which are based solely on plumbing received at birth.

    They do not admit women to their school of ministry, and they do not permit women to teach, unless it’s other women and/or little kid’s Sunday School.

  239. Muff Potter wrote:

    @ Talmidah from the Daubenmire thread

    Hey Muff, thanks for taking time to respond. I didn’t realize that you’re a veteran. Thank you for serving our country, my friend.

    I had no idea that Calvary Chapel was that heavily into patriarchy. Now I’m glad I never went to that CC when my friend invited me. It probably would have set me back. I had already been questioning what I’d been taught about marriage, gender roles and other issues that just didn’t make sense any longer. It was a terrible time and my head was spinning.

    I can understand what the draw was, though, for you and others years ago. I read that Chuck Smith was one of the Jesus People/Jesus Freaks. I guess I was too. During those times, with Vietnam, riots, assassinations and general turmoil we wanted truth so badly and latched on to stuff that seems so wacky now. We still seek truth, but the times are so different, and we are much wiser.

    Glad you escaped. 🙂

  240. I just want to take a minute and tell about answered prayers. In both of my kids lives, things has happened recently that I am rejoicing about. God still answers a parent’s plea. No matter how old our kids are, we still pray for them. At the end of next week, my son is going on a solo hiking trip in Big Bend, TX. I will be praying for him all the time. He says he won’t go off any beaten tracks and I have to trust him on this. He just needs to get away from his job and take a much needed time to relax and think. I had a set back with my foot this week, due to a near car accident. God was totally watching out for us. We were going downhill when all the cars slammed on their brakes. It would have been a big multi car accident if the brakes on the cars hadn’t held. We were right across the street from the 2 big hospitals in our town, but still I didn’t want to be in one of them. My foot hit the ac duct and the side of the car, as I had my leg crossed. If it had been down, the cast probably would have broke (thank God for that). I think the surgery site got jostled pretty good, which caused a lot of pain. But I don’t think it did any damage. Another answer to prayer.

  241. Talmidah wrote:

    I can understand what the draw was, though, for you and others years ago. I read that Chuck Smith was one of the Jesus People/Jesus Freaks.

    The draw is still there for those who don’t wanna’ do their own homework (critical thinking) and take responsibility for their own spiritual welfare.

  242. Talmidah wrote:

    I had no idea that Calvary Chapel was that heavily into patriarchy. Now I’m glad I never went to that CC when my friend invited me. It probably would have set me back. I had already been questioning what I’d been taught about marriage, gender roles and other issues that just didn’t make sense any longer. It was a terrible time and my head was spinning.

    I’d be remiss if I didn’t backup my claim with fact that Calvary Chapel is patriarchal. Here’s a link to a conference (on vimeo) of CC’s big guns held recently in Philadelphia:

    https://vimeo.com/167957758

    What they believe the Bible teaches on gender roles starts at approximately 34:00 mins.
    There’s an especially poignant anecdote (40:10 min. mark approx.) about the wife of CC’s founder (Chuck Smith) when one of the conference pastors happened to accidentally interrupt a women’s Bible study she was teaching.

  243. In response to some heart-breaking comments regarding answer to prayer, I think this story may help with perspective:

    ” In a town near to Rabbi Zushia, there was a rabbinical college. The students were studying the Talmud and came to the passage that said: “we must thank G-d for the good as well as the bad.” The students were puzzled. Thanking G-d for the good, that’s understandable and reasonable; but thanking G-d for the bad? That didn’t make any sense.

    They brought this question to the attention of the dean of the college. He stroked his long beard and pondered the question. “Yes, this is a question that only Rabbi Zushia can answer. Go to his house and ask him!”

    The students decided to go immediately. Rabbi Zushia lived outside of the town. They walked beyond the town’s limits and entered into the wooded forest. Following a narrow path, they soon arrived at a run-down shack that was Rabbi Zushia’s abode. The windows were broken, the roof looked in need of repair and the walls were badly cracked. As Rabbi Zushia greeted them and led them in, they saw the abject poverty in which Rabbi Zushia lived. The chairs were wobbly and few. The other furnishings were shoddy and in poor repair.

    Rabbi Zushia apologized for not having any thing to offer them to eat but perhaps a glass of hot water would be sufficient.

    The students explained that they had come to ask him this question. “Why does it say in the Talmud that we must thank G-d for the good as well as the bad?”

    Rabbi Zushia asked them, “Why come to me to ask me that question. I also can not understand it. Nothing bad has ever happened to me. Is it possible that G-d does anything bad?” “

  244. O.K. I have a very off topic question. I was on facebook and noticed that a friend is at a rally held by David Jeremiah, and my mind flashed back to the 80’s or 90’s, and wasn’t there some kind of scandal regarding David Jeremiah, or am I hallucinating? I don’t know much about him, but did see that he and some other pastors prayed with Donald Trump, which may or may not mean and endorsement of Trump’s candidacy. I am a bit nervous, however, because this friend is in the camp of America is going to hell in a handbasket so we need to vote for Trump camp.

  245. Hello, Wartburgers. I do not comment often, but I read here all the time.

    I lost my job of 14 years yesterday. I’m 58, widow, no kids, a few health problems. Prior to this job, I worked for another company for 16 years, so I assume I’ve been doing SOMETHING right.

    I’m writing because I need a community of believers to pray for me. I need a job, or a rich husband 🙂 and fast. I’m one of the jaded “dones” so I don’t have a spiritual support system IRL. I live in Charlotte. Do not EVEN suggest Elevation Church. 🙂

    Thank you for your prayers.

  246. @ OnlyEleven:
    I’m not a believer, but I do understand your pain. I was in your same situation 2 years ago. This community has been very supportive of me and consider them to be the best Christians I’ve met in many many years. Welcome.

  247. @ OnlyEleven:

    Hi Only Eleven,

    I am so sorry to hear of you loss of your job, that you’re a widow, and have some health problems.

    There are some resources I can suggest:

    *Ask A Manager, Alison Green’s terrific blog about the good, the bad, and the ugly
    about jobs and that includes searches. She has a free interview guide. On Fridays
    it’s Open Thread day for anything job related. On Saturdays there’s an Open Thread
    about anything.
    http://www.askamanager.org/

    *Dress for Success. If you need clothes for the job hunt and support. Nation-wide.

    *Debtors Anonymous. For those dealing with debt and under earning. In person meetings, telephone meetings, pressure relief groups with two people to come up with an action plan.

    Please keep us updated.

    Hugs,

    Velour in California

  248. @ nmgirl:

    So glad to hear your update. We continue to pray for you and hold good thoughts for you and your pets. Please keep us updated as you wish. I worry about you when we don’t hear from you.

    Hugs,

    Velour in California

  249. I am from a Seeker Sensitive church. One pastor I really respect is Andy Stanley. Now he is not perfect but I like his vision and, most importantly, his focus on the love of God and to love others.

    I had been reading a lot of hate from many “smaller” churches. I was going to respond to one particular post. Unfortunately they have disabled further comments. Luckily I have saved a back up copy of my post. And I will post it here instead.

    Bottom line: Love others. Focus on your own church. Do not be jealous. =)

    *******

    http://bereanresearch.org/crisis-andy-stanleys-north-point-church/

    Andy Stanley already apologized for his comment on the small churches. Yet so many so-called Christians keep on bringing that back up. Is there no room for forgiveness in their hearts? Where is their love?

    And if you listen to his other sermons you know that he was talking about a “very specific” kind of small church, not all small churches. You have to understand that he talks to a lot of people. So his concerns for people in those kind of “specific” churches are genuine.

    And many so-called Christians asks Andy Stanley to step down. What in the world? Even Apostles Paul and Peter made mistakes. Should they give up and step down too?

    All these critics against Andy Stanley has zero love in their hearts. Absolutely zero love for a brother in Christ. They just judge and condemn and judge and condemn all day long. I wonder what their pastor has been teaching them?

    “Judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.” – James 2:13

    Now they are going after what type of music a church should use to worship. Now they are going after if the American flag is allowed inside churches. They want to go after everything and control how others run their churches.

    I have also seen how jealous some of these “small” churches are. They keep saying that mega churches are always preaching falsehood to attract people. Now yes there are mega churches that preaches falsehood. But to say all mega churches preaches falsehood?

    Often these small churches baptize like 1-3 people every year. Some baptizes even less. Mega churches often baptize more than 30 people a year. These small church would turn around and say mega churches are making false believers that do not even know about forgiveness of sin and hell. Oh really? Isn’t this jealousy speaking?

    “13 Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. 15 This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. 18 And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.” – James 3:13-18

    I am from a seeker sensitive church and I know all about the forgiveness of all my sins and the burning hot fires of hell. Where did you think I learn that from? Seeker sensitive! It was taught to me in an easy to digest way. But I do know about it. So what is your problem with it?

    Then these small churches will say numbers doesn’t matter. That their church members are more faithful to God. Oh really? How many non-believers has their members approached this year? How many volunteer hours per member (yes per member) were done to serve the poor and homeless?

    “But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without (loving) deeds, and I will show you my faith by my (loving) deeds.” – James 2:18

    Now I am not judging small churches. I am tell you that you, yourself, have to go out and talk to non-believers. You, yourself, have to go self the poor and the homeless, bringing the Gospel to them. Do not make any excuses. And do not put your own failures or your small churches’ failures (if there are any) onto the mega churches. You go out to love others and preach the Gospel.

    “If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.” – 1 Corinthians 13:2

    Do not be influenced by demons and Satan. But listen to God and learn his love. Then love God and love your neighbors just as you love yourself. This is the Greatest Commandant.

  250. @ OnlyEleven

    For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly. – Psalm 84:11 (KJV)

    OnlyEleven, I’m so sorry to hear that you’re going through this. I just prayed for you and will continue to lift you in prayer each day as I do for the others.

    I’m in NC but live in the Triangle area. If I hear of a good fellowship in Charlotte I’ll post it here. I’ll try to ask around this weekend.

    May our Lord guide you into His great blessings – hugs and love to you!

  251. CHIPS wrote:

    Bottom line: Love others. Focus on your own
    church. Do not be jealous. =)

    You make a lot of assumptions. Take your own advice. Enjoy your church with your eyes wide open, I hope.

  252. CHIPS wrote:

    Now I am not judging small churches. I am tell you that you, yourself, have to go out and talk to non-believers. You, yourself, have to go self the poor and the homeless, bringing the Gospel to them. Do not make any excuses. And do not put your own failures or your small churches’ failures (if there are any) onto the mega churches. You go out to love others and preach the Gospel.

    I’m from Alpharetta, and I’ve been to Northpoint. I know a whole lot of Northpoint people. I think Northpoint is better than most megachurches, and yes, I’ve been to many of them, too. I think Stanley’s comment about small churches was misguided, but I don’t fault him one comment.

    However, I do not find “seeker-sensitive church” anywhere in the Bible. The church is for making disciples. Christians, out in the world, are for bringing people to Christ. When the church focuses on just stuffing people in, they end up never going past feeding their people milk. I’ve been to Northpoint, I know they have small groups for discipleship, but I do not see Northpoint influencing the community very much at all.

    Let me put this another way — Northpoint would never work in the inner city, and there are very few megachurches which operate in lower income areas. The top 5 megachurches are all in rich suburbs. Megachurches thrive on rich congregations. Those people stay in their affluent suburbs, and their money goes toward huge staffs and country club amenities. Maybe some goes toward missions, but I doubt they could sustain that mega model without a large percentage of it toward operations and staff.

    I would have had more respect for Andy Stanley if he had planted his church in downtown Atlanta, way south of his dad’s church. If But no, he planted his churches in Alpharetta, Buckhead, and by Lake Lanier – the places with the richest people in Georgia. I don’t respect the megachurch model of ministry to the wealthy only.

  253. Here is where I am today.
    Just finished one time editing job for author friend. Still keeping eyes and ears open for things I can do.
    I am still maintaining on a health plateau, working on possible altetnative options to get thing moving forward again…none of which are covered by insurance. But I will keep moving forward on that.
    My current needs are for food and gas. And rent ($565) come due in a week.
    Any and all help is appreciated and always seems to add up to what I need. Thank you all so much. I pray your generosity comes back to you right when you need it most. Love to you all.

    http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

  254. @ Velour 10/24 7:00 comment

    Oh, w – o – o- o- o- o- o- o- w!!!!

    Fist Bop ~ ! C ~ O ~ !N! ~ G ~ A !!! ~ line LEADER!!!

    I am humbled and honored by my servant call to humbly servant lead the Fist Bop Conga!

    T H A N K Y O U!!

    (Please be sure to video-tape for wide distribution, I mean, um, to spread the blessing. Okay, well, scratch that. Pride goeth before a fall and I definitely do not want to fall on my face leading Fist Bop Conga ha ha)

    Any and all — as it seems good to you and the Holy Spirit and the wisdom of many counselors and your own God-given conscience — sign right up for this event at Camp Backbone and COME ON D..OOWW..N.

    If not, don’t.

    All welcome, none coerced.

    “Praise Him with timbrel and dance. . . Let everything that breathes, praise the Lord.” Psalm 150

  255. @ CHIPS

    I’m one who needs tons of evidence to perhaps admit that a person is a brother or sister in Christ. I’m not there yet with Andy Stanley.

  256. @ Jeanette

    Heart-felt condolences on the passing of your sister’s husband. Prayers for Christ’s comfort in your family’s grief.

    For me, the first year after my parents’ passing (within 2 months of each other — due to illnesses) was a real grief roller coaster.

    Jesus is not referred to as the Rock for nothing. The Rock holds for me when all else is in sway.

  257. trs wrote:

    I’m one who needs tons of evidence to perhaps admit that a person is a brother or sister in Christ.

    would the Incarnation itself even be enough evidence ? 🙂

  258. @nm girl

    Thanks for the update. . . . “like” for your “making lemonade” approach . . .

    I can see why you would feel like giving up. Yay for besting the situation instead.
    Thanks for choosing to live today. Your life is valuable and you are valued.

    Our prayers and well-wishes?? well . . maybe so. We’ll keep them up, just in case.

    (btw Belief is not a requirement for being loved. For sure, my belief in God’s love for me in Jesus is infinitessimally tiny compared to the true reality of the immensity of His love for me.)

  259. @ Harley

    Double, triple, quadruple YAY!! for all the blessings you’ve shared and for your fortitude in trials and pain.

    btw Wheeled shoes, chairs, skateboards, one-and-two seater mini-carts and assorted stay-off-your-feet-and-dance support will be available for Fist Bop Conga at Camp Backbone.

  260. @OnlyEleven

    Praying God acts swiftly and powerfully in your situation.

    “Done” or not, believers are members of one another, burdens and all. Thanks for the opportunity to share in your trials.

  261. My wife grew up with Norine on the mission field as a fellow missionary kid. Her family is very close with Norine’s family. Please pray for Norine and her husband Andrew (still imprisoned). Here is a recent update: https://www.worldwatchmonitor.org/2016/10/4680155//. The couple has been in Turkey for more than 20 years leading a church. My wife is doing what she can to raise visibility within the US. Thanks.

  262. I took our van out shopping yesterday for awhile. Not the smartest thing I have ever done. My back and shoulder didn’t like me getting the wheelchair in and out of the back of the van. My foot was ok, till about 8 miles from home. It didn’t like being in a vertical position for so long. The stores I went to were about 18 miles away, not by interstate either. Came home, took a pain pill and took it easy the rest of the day. I thought about going out again today, but decided that I really didn’t need anything at Hobby Lobby or World Market that much. Feeling a bit better today. You’d be amazed at what all you can do while living life in a wheelchair. Such as laundry, dishes, meals, etc. I’ve learned I’m capable of a lot more things than I ever thought possible a few years ago. I look at it this way, I walked for a little over 50 years, and if that’s all I get, then thank God for that. Others don’t even have that. I think I decided the other day that I’m tired of having the cast on my leg. Minimum of 3 more weeks on, maximum 7 weeks. I can’t thank God enough for all the people here at Wartburg Watch who have prayed for me and seen me thru some pretty dark days of pain. My family and friends mean so much to me. We here at Wartburg Watch know how to pray.

  263. Harley wrote:

    I think I decided the other day that I’m tired of having the cast on my leg. Minimum of 3 more weeks on, maximum 7 weeks.

    this, too, shall pass …. prayers for you to stay strong and hopeful, sorry you are hurting

  264. trs wrote:

    Fist Bop ~ ! C ~ O ~ !N! ~ G ~ A !!! ~ line LEADER!!!
    I am humbled and honored by my servant call to humbly servant lead the Fist Bop Conga!
    T H A N K Y O U!!

    You are welcome!

    Signed,

    Velour, Vice President
    Marketing, Online Store,
    Retail, and Consumer Surveys
    POUND SAND MINISTRIES (TM),
    proud sponsor of Camp Backbone
    with our fearless leader Nancy2 in Kentucky

  265. @ OnlyEleven

    Talmidah wrote:

    If I hear of a good fellowship in Charlotte I’ll post it here. I’ll try to ask around this weekend.

    Hey again OnlyEleven –

    I asked for a personal fellowship recommendation in Charlotte over the weekend. I struck out, but you might want to visit an IPHC (International Pentecostal Holiness Church), or maybe an Assemblies of God if you have one nearby. Some of my family members attend an IPHC not far from here and it’s a really great group of people. I plan to go there myself as soon as health allows. They’re big on helping one another and the community in tough times, and it’s certainly not a mega – far from it. I’ve attended a few AoGs in past years and they were OK, but I craved deeper teaching. Maybe that has changed for the better. Use discernment and I’m sure you’ll find a good fellowship in your area.

    I’m keeping you in prayer – love and hugs,

    Talmidah in the Triangle area, NC

  266. I visited a wonderful church right near my new house yesterday. It has a female pastor, and her sermon was excellent. Everyone was really nice, too, and I felt immediately adopted by them.

    I’m coming down with a cold, so pray I didn’t get anyone sick. I would feel terrible about that.

  267. ishy wrote:

    I visited a wonderful church right near my new house yesterday. It has a female pastor, and her sermon was excellent. Everyone was really nice, too, and I felt immediately adopted by them.
    I’m coming down with a cold, so pray I didn’t get anyone sick. I would feel terrible about that.

    Congratulations on the wonderful church experience, service, and woman pastor.

    I will be praying for your health. I just got over a bug this past week.

  268. My husband got back this afternoon after a 5 day trip to west Texas to hunt for agates (he is a rockhound). Yesterday he stepped in a hole and fell on his back, while carrying 100 lbs of rocks. He had his big trail hiking back pack full of the rocks. He only has a bad blister on his shoulder to show from it. Plus there was drug raid that happened yesterday near the entrance to the private ranch where they were going. Two people were arrested for doing and selling drugs. We don’t know about the 3rd person. For awhile, the people arrested were in a small shack about 1/2 mile from where my husband and his 2 buddies were collecting rocks at. To top all that off, there a big accident on I-20 eastbound this morning at Terrell, TX. There were 3 fatalities. This was the interstate and area my husband would be on. He was west at the time of the accident. My kids, myself and hubby had to find him an alternative route home. He got home at the expected time, vs being in traffic for hours. This will be one trip my husband won’t forget. Thank God he is home safe and sound, but very tired.

  269. Hi Marquis,

    Isn’t there a Costco near you? I think you should apply. They have good benefits too.

  270. Found this today on the Founders site: http://founders.org/2016/08/13/god-and-the-holy-trinity/. It’s an article supporting Eternal Subordination of the Son (ESS).

    When one focuses more intensely, or perhaps exclusively, on the singularity of essence and divine simplicity, the language of subordination, or submission, or subjection borders on an implicit subordinatonist Christology.

    William Lane Craig and Norman Geisler, among other apologists, point out that God, as a necessary being, is pure actuality with no potentiality. He has no potential to become something that he is not because he is limitless and lacks nothing. That’s what it means to be “simple” in the sense quoted above. But then the article states this:

    That Jesus is the sent-one reflects the potentiality resident within the eternal relation of Father and Son.

    and

    Every relation exhibited toward the world by each person of the triune God reveals something that formerly was potential as an original propensity of nature that now is manifest (“his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel” (2 Timothy 1:9, 10). In this context, therefore, I affirm that an original property of the Son, incommunicable to any other person of the Trinity, is submission. Such an immense operation of both revelation and manifestation of the announced “goodness” of God, to Moses, would have been absolutely unfitting unless this were eternally resident within the Son as the potential of a prosopological incommunicable property.

    He uses lots of fancy words, but in the end contradicts both the Nicene creed and the standard philosophical description of God as simple being. I personally think the view of God as a simple being has its own problems, but that is another topic.

  271. @ <a hrM@ ishy:
    That sounds great. My current church has two female and one male pastor. I never thought that was a big deal to me, but it’s been great, to be honest.

  272. Hi Friends,

    I’m sitting at home feeling down when I need to be preparing for work tomorrow, so I thought I’d write here to get things off my chest. I have been living with my current roommate for so long that we’re practically sisters. However, we disagree on a lot – for example she still attends Covenant Life and is skeptical about whether the sexual abuse occurred. However, I have never heard any racist comments from her. This morning while preparing to go out the door for work, we got into a discussion about minorities in our area, which I think is a positive thing and adds spice to life. But this morning she actually said that immigrants would probably be happier if they went back to their home country. I was so shocked that she even said that, and I told her Trump has ruined her. I am still very upset, however, and I don’t know if I can continue to stay with someone with these views. I know she has taken classes at Covenant Life that talks positively about minorities, so I’m not sure why she feels this way. Please pray for wisdom for me, and especially when I do address her on this. It just makes me so sad that she is rejecting people made in the image of God.

  273. Christiane on Sat Oct 22, 2016 at 04:38 PM said:

    Hi, Christiane,

    I’m glad you’ve been recovering well from your recent health issues. Life can sure take its toll on our “tabernacles of flesh.”

    I’m looking forward to “the dead being raised imperishable” and “putting on immortality.” (1 Corinthians 15:50 -54.). I marvel everyday at God’s immense grace towards us fallen folks that we have His own Spirit in our perishable “earthen vessels.” 2 Corinthians 4:7

    I’ve just now seen your comment from Saturday, which got a smile from me.

    Jesus is the only example of Incarnation that I know of — Emmanuel, God with us. Yes. He’s on my trustworthy list, though, in truth, He is worthy of much deeper trust than I invest in Him. Steps of trust are uniquely our own.

    I appreciate the compassion you show to people.

  274. Former CLCer wrote:

    But this morning she actually said that immigrants would probably be happier if they went back to their home country.

    I saw a picture that came through my Facebook feed today of a presidential candidate saying on the top that he wanted immigrants to leave.

    On the bottom was a picture of an Indian chief/Native American that agreed. Of course you know what that means. All of us who are the descendants of immigrants…have to leave.

    On a more serious note, I couldn’t stand the haters at my ex-church, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (California). They wore on my last raw nerve. They wanted sympathy for hating on everyone – gays, blacks, immigrants – and I just couldn’t agree.
    I work a job in the real world in which we have strict anti-discrimination laws that I am required to enforce and uphold. I work with diverse people, including all of those that the haters hate. I even have some of those diverse people as supervisors where I work and they are wonderful professionals.

    I don’t have any easy answers. But I’ll pray for your living situation, for you, and for your housemate.

  275. I’m finding that realistic expectations relieve me of much frustration and angst.

    Not expecting wolves to behave like godly persons is very freeing. Wolves acting like wolves makes sense. False leaders deceiving many while living ungodly (even criminal) lives makes sense. Hence, no more cognitive dissonance.

    I knew about Jesus’ warnings to His flock about wolves and false teachers/leaders/brethren. I just didn’t “see” clearly in my own situation. I wasn’t discerning between those whom God terms “brethren” and those whom He terms “ravenous wolves,” “false prophets,” and “false Christs” (Matthew 7:15, 24:24). I now am extremely intent upon learning these lessons.

    Sudden, broken trust is eerily weird. Not something I was expecting. Not something I want to re-do.

    False leaders are not worth shutting down on Jesus for. Nothing is worth losing my soul over.

    At any given moment of time, I am in error about something; I am always still “in the dark” about many things. That’s reality until God’s Kingdom come. I know I will give account of all my thoughts and doings. So far, I’m okay with erring on the side of caution.

    I am content with an inner assurance that true shepherds/brethren will not mistake my brokenness, questioning, and caution for “hate.”

  276. @ Velour:
    Thanks Velour. You have such a compassionate heart. I agree that I don’t have much tolerance for haters, nor for Christians who don’t want to examine themselves and their attitudes, or to listen to others.

    I have similar experiences in my jobs as far as associating with people I might not necessarily choose to associate with. But it’s been good for me, and I have learned to value people for who they are as people and not criticize them for things I may not like or agree with. To me, some of these people are who Jesus would hang out with were he here on earth today.

  277. Harley wrote:

    My husband got back this afternoon after a 5 day trip to west Texas to hunt for agates (he is a rockhound). Yesterday he stepped in a hole and fell on his back, while carrying 100 lbs of rocks. He had his big trail hiking back pack full of the rocks. He only has a bad blister on his shoulder to show from it. Plus there was drug raid that happened yesterday near the entrance to the private ranch where they were going. Two people were arrested for doing and selling drugs. We don’t know about the 3rd person. For awhile, the people arrested were in a small shack about 1/2 mile from where my husband and his 2 buddies were collecting rocks at. To top all that off, there a big accident on I-20 eastbound this morning at Terrell, TX. There were 3 fatalities. This was the interstate and area my husband would be on. He was west at the time of the accident. My kids, myself and hubby had to find him an alternative route home. He got home at the expected time, vs being in traffic for hours. This will be one trip my husband won’t forget. Thank God he is home safe and sound, but very tired.

    i’m on the verge of possibly getting a job with the city but they are doing background checks and I need to be called in for another interview because they are considering me. I also applied with the school district. These interviews are grueling but may end up being worth it. Until then we are struggling and i’m applying everywhere but gas money only go’s so far. I had to turn down an interview because I couldn’t get there, no gas.

  278. OOOPs meant to respond to velours comment about costco lol sorry harley.

    i’m on the verge of possibly getting a job with the city but they are doing background checks and I need to be called in for another interview because they are considering me. I also applied with the school district. These interviews are grueling but may end up being worth it. Until then we are struggling and i’m applying everywhere but gas money only go’s so far. I had to turn down an interview because I couldn’t get there, no gas.

  279. ishy wrote:

    CHIPS wrote:
    Now I am not judging small churches. I am tell you that you, yourself, have to go out and talk to non-believers. You, yourself, have to go self the poor and the homeless, bringing the Gospel to them. Do not make any excuses. And do not put your own failures or your small churches’ failures (if there are any) onto the mega churches. You go out to love others and preach the Gospel.
    I’m from Alpharetta, and I’ve been to Northpoint. I know a whole lot of Northpoint people. I think Northpoint is better than most megachurches, and yes, I’ve been to many of them, too. I think Stanley’s comment about small churches was misguided, but I don’t fault him one comment.
    However, I do not find “seeker-sensitive church” anywhere in the Bible. The church is for making disciples. Christians, out in the world, are for bringing people to Christ. When the church focuses on just stuffing people in, they end up never going past feeding their people milk. I’ve been to Northpoint, I know they have small groups for discipleship, but I do not see Northpoint influencing the community very much at all.
    Let me put this another way — Northpoint would never work in the inner city, and there are very few megachurches which operate in lower income areas. The top 5 megachurches are all in rich suburbs. Megachurches thrive on rich congregations. Those people stay in their affluent suburbs, and their money goes toward huge staffs and country club amenities. Maybe some goes toward missions, but I doubt they could sustain that mega model without a large percentage of it toward operations and staff.
    I would have had more respect for Andy Stanley if he had planted his church in downtown Atlanta, way south of his dad’s church. If But no, he planted his churches in Alpharetta, Buckhead, and by Lake Lanier – the places with the richest people in Georgia. I don’t respect the megachurch model of ministry to the wealthy only.

    I can only speak for myself. But I was originally from a small conservative church that never bring in new believers. There was a lot of theology but rarely any action to do what those theology says.

    Fast forward. Now I go to a local Alliance church. I listen to many sermons online, and one of the speakers I like is Andy Stanley.

    I am now volunteering for a local ministry that helps support the poor children in my city. We tutor the kids for free so they don’t fall behind in school. We hope to give them a chance at a successful life, while preaching Jesus to them. So while it is true that some Christians do not serve the poor and homeless, some of us DO serve the poor and homeless. Some of us do love and serve the least of these.

    The reason I now serve was because these pastors (including Andy Stanley) that taught me that I need to serve a cause that breaks my heart. Something that make my heart ache every time I see that no one else is stepping up. That our sociality has ignored. It can be anything: Human trafficking, child prostitution, school bullies, abusive fathers, etc.

    Volunteering is not like, let’s say, the small church needs a dish washer so I agree to wash dishes. But after that I must wash dishes every week and cannot get out of dish washing because there aren’t enough people and NO ONE ELSE want to do it.

    In a loving church, its members would “fights over” volunteer opportunities. Because they want to serve so much. If I get tired of dish washing, someone else would gladly take over. This is a TRUE sign of a healthy church, that the members love each other and gladly serve each other.

    I do not agree that my seeker sensitive church and Andy Stanley’s church just “stuff” people in. Now there are “bad apples” in all churches. And there are indeed bad church of all kinds, including seeker sensitive churches that teaches clear falsehood. Even well intended pastor would teach falsehood sometimes. I do not doubt the bad apples. But let me just talk about “we” as those churches that want to teach the truth, that the members understand the sermon message and want to apply them.

    Firstly we do know about the forgives of sin and the burning hot fires of hell. So we know more than what some of these other people think. We aren’t false Christians or don’t know what we even believe.

    Secondly I believe these churches are very clear on the topic of LOVE. Now if you say these churches focuses “too much” on love and not enough on others, I might agree with you. Maybe your theology focused church will teach you about the true meaning of Deuteronomy 21:18-21. A Seeker sensitive church might not (or never) focus on these kind of “deep” theology. But they are very clear on love. And love is the Greatest Commandant. A lot of these theology-focused churches (not saying all of them) will go into all kind of deep theology but totally forget about love. So they know a lot but forgot about the first love. (Revelation 2:4-5) Isn’t this the SAME TRAP that the PHARISEES fell into? Isn’t this even worst that seeker sensitive churches?

    Thirdly seeker sensitive churches gives plenty of encouragement and opportunities for its members to love and serve others. I personally believe that love for others must be displayed though action. One cannot say they love God and yet hate his brothers and sisters in Christ. (1 John 4:20)

    Fourthly learning about love allow us to understand social justice better. That’s why I stand behind Wartburg Watch in their fight against Neo-Calvinism. Their so-called love is often so one sided it becomes “Love A but hate B.” That is not the universal love that Jesus taught. Jesus said love both A and B, even if B is very different from you. Or you are A’s friend and don’t know B all that well. Or B is powerless and A is powerful and influential. Jesus taught us to not play favoritism and love universally.

    Fifthly and lastly people are indeed getting saved in seeker sensitive churches. We are quite outgoing on inviting our friends and co-workers to church. We are PROUD to invite them to our church. We know that the sermon will be “seeker friendly” and they will enjoy it. And it is our hope that they will slowly become a Christ follower.

    Are you proud to invite your friends and co-workers to your church? Or you are so worried about how the next sermon is going to go that you just give up?

    You have to understand that the INTENTIONS of seeker sensitive churches are good. You might not agree with seeker sensitive’s approach, but please look into their hearts. Some non-believers needs baby food and need baby steps. They are totally lost in the darkness. Why are some Christians so against seeker friendly sermons? Is it really a mistake to plan our sermons carefully so a non-believer won’t say “I knew it! God is hate, not love!” and walks out never coming back. How does that help anyone?

    I hope I explained why I agree with seeker sensitive churches. And once again I am not talking about those the preaches falsehood everyday just to get donation money.

    As for the first century church and how it was ran, I don’t think anyone knows exactly. I mean even Neo-Calvinist will claim that their church is ran like the first century church. Doesn’t mean it is true. But I do know this fact. The first century church at 34 AD DIDN’T even have the bible. The new testament wasn’t even written yet. However they have love in their hearts and they love each other. In fact they love each other so much that the pour their resources together for the greater good for all.

    And their pastor(s) didn’t take the church’s money and buy himself a jet plane. Instead their pastor(s) often put themselves in dangerous situations and become martyrs due to their faith in Jesus. If they say nothing they will get to live, but everyone else will eventually die in hell. So out of their love for their worst enemies, they spoke up and risk their own lives. This is the love that Jesus taught his followers in the first century. And all of these before the bible even existed.

    It was Christ’s love that first drew us to him. Let us never forget his love. We rather give up time on learning about other deeper theology, if we can understand love better and applying that love better. =)

  280. I totally agree that church members, that is — the Body of Christ — ARE His ministers, commissioned to build each other up in love and to share His Gospel with all nations.

    I believe every believer is equally a servant of Christ, graced and gifted for various ministries as spoken of in Romans 12.

  281. @ Marquis

    Great news about your job interviews. Sounds like you’ve got the right qualifications for the city job, if you’re on a second interview. Really encouraging news.

  282. trs wrote:

    @ Marquis
    Great news about your job interviews. Sounds like you’ve got the right qualifications for the city job, if you’re on a second interview. Really encouraging news.

    Yes.

    Thanks Marquis for updating us about your job search.

  283. @ CHIPS

    It’s great that you’ve found a place to serve and love kids. Cheering you on, here.

    I wasn’t sure where you were coming from in your earlier post when you mentioned “reading a lot of hate from ‘smaller’ churches.”

    I thought you were going along with the current trend of equating disagreement and legitimate spiritual concern with “hate.”

    I have disagreements with lots of people I know and love. In fact, I can’t think of one person with whom I agree 100%, not even the Lord (which is my bad, not His.) When met with the whole “hating” meme just because I am honest enough to voice my sincere disagreement, I tend to tune out real fast.

    Your comment, of course, was not directed to me at all and I didn’t take it that way. Your words just got me wondering, is all.

    I think I get more what you mean now with your reference to 1 John 4:20 in your last post. (One cannot say they love God and yet hate his brothers and sisters in Christ. (1 John 4:20)) I appreciate the broader context for your thinking. Thanks for clarifying.

  284. CHIPS wrote:

    You have to understand that the INTENTIONS of seeker sensitive churches are good. You might not agree with seeker sensitive’s approach, but please look into their hearts.

    There’s a difference between understanding something and believing it. You clearly can’t answer my question, either. Why do people who aim to plant a megachurch from the start only plant them in the richest neighborhoods?

    Why did Andy Stanley and company plant their three churches in three of the richest areas of Georgia? Why pick those locations over others? Why did they pick areas that already had several megachurches and lots and lots of smaller churches?

    Who are they really reaching?

  285. ishy wrote:

    CHIPS wrote:
    You have to understand that the INTENTIONS of seeker sensitive churches are good. You might not agree with seeker sensitive’s approach, but please look into their hearts.
    There’s a difference between understanding something and believing it. You clearly can’t answer my question, either. Why do people who aim to plant a megachurch from the start only plant them in the richest neighborhoods?
    Why did Andy Stanley and company plant their three churches in three of the richest areas of Georgia? Why pick those locations over others? Why did they pick areas that already had several megachurches and lots and lots of smaller churches?
    Who are they really reaching?

    I do not know the answer to that. As I said I am not linked to North Point. This is a question probably better direct to North Point themselves. Have you tried emailing them?

    I know where you are coming from. You are saying that it is all about the money for North Point. That they plant themselves right in the richest areas in Georgia to get more donation money.

    But I do have a question: Doesn’t the rich need saving too?

    Think of how Jesus walked up to tax collectors, the richest and most evil people at the time, and tried to save them.

    I already talked about churches that play favoritism. It is certainly wrong for churches to favor certain rich and influential church members over others. But the opposite is the same too. It would be wrong to favor the poor over the rich. Everyone is equally a sinner and everyone needs the saving grace of God.

    The rich and powerful are often tempted to sin by pride and abuse. The poor and weak are often tempted to sin by jealousy and envy. That’s why we have megachurches looking down on smaller churches. And small churches being jealous of megachurches. But both are EQUALLY SINFUL in God’s eyes. God will never love a rich person more than the poor person. But God will also never love a poor person more than a rich person. Everyone person will face temptation and it is up to him/her how to handle them.

    So if you are rich and successful, love the poor. If you are poor and unsuccessful, love the rich. Do not listen to Satan’s lies. Let us embrace our brothers who were a prodigal son.

    Now onto the topic of the rich ministering to the poor. I think the rich understands very little on the struggles of the poor. Most rich people has never been homeless or getting chased by their landlord every week. It is hard to build that connection between the rich and the poor.

    So if you ask Andy Stanley why he never build a church in the slums and poor areas of Georgia, one of the main reason would “probably” be that he himself was never homeless. I am sure his dad, Dr. Charles Stanley, made enough money for his family to live comfortably. Now this doesn’t mean Andy Stanley doesn’t care about the poor at all. But it is hard to relate to them.

    The above are my words, not Andy Stanley’s. So take it as a grain of salt.

    If a rich man want to serve the poor, I think it is better for him to join a parachurch organization that directly supports and ministers to the poor. When the Union Gospel or Salvation Army go out and feed the poor, it makes perfect sense. They understand the poor, the slums and the homeless very well. But a rich church will not be able to do minister to them as easily.

    If a rich church wants to help the poor, it is better for them to donate to these parachurch organizations and send members to volunteer there.

    For example my middle class church donates and send volunteers to Cambodia though a parachurch organization. However my church leadership would “probably” never build a church in Cambodia. It just won’t work. The culture and situation is just so different that it will be impossible to be relevant.

    We cannot build a rich man’s church in a poor neighborhood. A poor neighborhood needs a poor man’s church or a parachurch organization, that is backed and supported by other rich churches. Hope this make sense.

  286. Marquis – no problem about responding to me vs Velour. I am friends with her outside this blog. I am so glad things are hopefully looking better for you job wise. I was going to ask you if you have a Hobby Lobby in your area. I know they pay really good money. Fourteen dollars an hour or so, but Costco does better. I even thought about looking up Montgomery County and seeing where the closest Hobby Lobby is. I truly believe that God has the perfect job out there for you. My daughter is also trying her best to find a better job than the one she has. She has prayed and prayed along with me. Finally, it looks like she might be getting a job where her husband works. It would be straight days and they can ride together. I know that our GOD has the best in store for both you and my daughter. We will all be rejoicing in your good news soon. Lots of love and prayers.

  287. Help!! I need some kind of meditation or mental exercise that will help me focus on school work. I need to clear my head of all this other stuff ( house, politics, poverty, etc). to move forward, I have to get into Pharmacy school and my current study habits are not getting me there. Thanks in advance for all your ideas.

  288. @ nmgirl:
    I do have friends who meditate, and in the past I have done things in yoga, like relax every part of your body from your head to your toes.

  289. Hi, nmgirl ~~

    Yikes!! My prayers for help with tuning out life to focus on study.

    Here are a few thoughts, fwiw.

    Use a timer? Tell yourself you will read/study/focus for 5 minutes until the time sounds. Set the timer for longer time periods.

    Make an audio of yourself reading your lessons, notes, summaries of lectures, etc. Play the audio at will — while driving, when relaxed, etc.

    Create artistic posters persuading yourself about the knowledge you’re learning. Have a lot of fun with colors and shapes. Maybe even devise thinking maps, such as the Venn Diagram, or treasure paths (like a board game format) for highlighting pertinent facts. (Brad Futurist Guy here is an outstanding thinking mapper. His site may give you ideas about organizing material.)

    (This site has tons of organizational thinking map models but looks a bit overwhelming. Probably too much to wade through when you are trying to focus. https://www.google.com/search?q=thinking+maps&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiax7bFmvzPAhXohFQKHfiaA7oQsAQILA&biw=1280&bih=918 )

    Venn Diagram:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=venn+diagram&oq=venn+diagram&aqs=chrome..69i57.2359j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

    Get out your keyboard and make a musical out of your study material.

    Consider tactile aids such as pairing information and physical movement, dance, play acting being a pharmacist using vocabulary, etc. or just simply tapping your finger as you read the info aloud, or tracing your finger in sand or salt or such like.

    http://homeworktips.about.com/od/homeworkhelp/a/tactile.htm

    Video tape yourself teaching the lecture/chapter to others.

    Use manipulatives, if appropriate. For instance, scales to weigh out different prescriptions with flour or something. Label baggies or empty
    pill containers with vocabulary you need to learn. Tape note cards with facts or vocabulary along a wall and see how far you can get down the trail before messing up. Start over, go further, repeat.

    Rooting you on . . .

  290. @ nmgirl

    Okay, I’m probably now going to totally distract you once more.

    I’m totally clueless about (and don’t need to know — as in, none of my business –) the details of your house situation.

    I’m just wondering if you’ve talked with anyone at the IRS to see if you can work out something with them so you can sell your house without the lien. (You’ve probably exercised all available options.)

    What you shared just sounds so frustrating. I’ve been thinking/praying about your situation.

    I found out after my folks passed away that they had left out a major portion (which could have involved a huge hassle about their house) of their last tax return. Their tax person suggested that I write a letter explaining the situation when I sent in the needed forms, which I did. I never heard back but I wasn’t fined or anything.

    I never would have thought of doing that myself. I just figured I’d have to “bite the bullet” and take the consequences.

    Also the NET has some “help with tax difficulties” sites, which I know absolutely nothing about but wonder if they might be helpful.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=help+with+tax+difficulties&oq=help+with+tax+difficulties&aqs=chrome..69i57.7871j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-

  291. nmgirl wrote:

    Help!! I need some kind of meditation or mental exercise that will help me focus on school work. I need to clear my head of all this other stuff ( house, politics, poverty, etc). to move forward, I have to get into Pharmacy school and my current study habits are not getting me there. Thanks in advance for all your ideas.

    You might want to check out Debtors Anonymous. There can be friendly, helpful women and men who’ve traveled this road and are able to lend an ear and some help.

    Go for a walk for 30 minutes which can boost your endorphins.

  292. nmgirl wrote:

    Help!! I need some kind of meditation or mental exercise that will help me focus on school work. I need to clear my head of all this other stuff ( house, politics, poverty, etc). to move forward, I have to get into Pharmacy school and my current study habits are not getting me there. Thanks in advance for all your ideas.

    There’s a bunch of videos on Youtube about how to study and organizing your study life, such as channel studyign (intentionally misspelled). I’m sure there’s ones specifically for pharmacy.

  293. @nmgirl,

    I don’t know what kind of music you like to listen to. Here is the Classical music station KDFC out of San Francisco that streams online. They have listeners in countries around the world. A litigation law firm where I worked played it 24/7 and I got hooked on it. Very calming when you’re doing litigation.

    http://www.kdfc.com/

  294. Hi hoping for some help for me and billy. We are in need of car repair (check engine light and brake engine lights are on) I can’t get the vehicle inspected or registered without it passing emissions. Registration is due along with insurance. These things must be taken care of in order to drive and for me to provide for the both of us. Billy just got a new job which he will be working just on the weekends and earning a little bit of money for himself which will not be for any house hold expenses or bills, that is up to me to take care of. However I won’t be able to drive him if my car isn’t insured or registered. I am desperate I owe my landlady funds but right now i’m going to have to go with the most crucial and immediate. I’m not asking anyone individually to put anything on the gofundme if you can’t help no worries I understand. This is difficult to ask for assistance as it is but it’s worth a shot to put the word out there. If any of you here wouldn’t mind putting the word out that would be so great. I need to keep working and if I can’t get about 500 in repairs , my insurance, and registration taken care of I can’t work and we will be in a worse position. I have interviewed and put in applications and if I hear back I will not be able to accept positions where I can’t drive to get to work. I don’t mean to offend anyone by asking here and i’m grateful to dee for allowing me to post our needs and everyone has been so great in filling in gaps and helping. Right now I need to raise about 1,000 for repairs, insurance, registration, and inspection. I need more than this but I can worry about the rest later. I am putting out the most crucial and immediate need for me and billy and the car is a major need. If I get caught driving without these things it will be impounded and I make our situation even worse. I want to avoid doing this at all costs but we also need for me to get to and from jobs. Anyone I knew that could help with driving me came from our previous church and everyone knows how those relationships are no more. I live in an area where there is no buses and everything is country to far away to walk. I can’t afford a cab because if I could I could use that to put towards the car. I will be able to extend my registration for thirty days but not until I get insurance taken care of which is 80.00 for one month and have the funds for the extension and registration which will be another 100.00 Someone put 65.00 today towards the gofundme which will go towards the 1,000 i’m estimating that we need. so it brings me down to $935.00 please just pray for the funds that are needed to come especially if you don’t feel led to put anything on there or just can’t, it’s ok. I’m not asking anyone here individually for anything as I know there are many who are much worse off than us. This is very humbling and difficult to ask for help. Every cent has gone towards immediate needs since Dee started the gofundme and i’m hoping to have it where she can cancel it when I get a steady job that pays more consistently and provides a better income amount. Again i’m so sorry for asking and putting this out there. I have called prior claeaning jobs I have had and even a few members of LBC and was turned down hard. That was very difficult to have people hang up on you and call me names. It was hurtful and my pride took a huge hit. I was just trying to generate work I have no ill feelings towards the members of LBC just asking for work. Anyways I know there are others who have greater needs and I hope by asking here that i’m not taking away from them. Please just pray for more calls to come in for work while I wait to hear back from jobs I interviewed for. Here is the gofundme link
    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk
    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk
    Billy and Shauna’s GoFundMe

  295. marquis wrote:

    Please just pray for more calls to come in for work while I wait to hear back from jobs I interviewed for.

    Please think about applying at Costco.

  296. Lea wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    most people I’ve crossed paths with outside of the math world refer to them as the “arrow” keys.

    Really??

    really

    @ Velour:
    Hi velour I applied there last week and haven’t heard back yet

  297. @ trs:
    What I have decided to do about the house for now is nothing. I am going to let the IRS file the lien. i am not going to make any more payments and let the lenders force me to a short sale. That way, I don’t have to move immediately and eventually the IRS will be paid off in full. Based on the short sale down the street, I could be here for years. meanwhile, I am packing up, sorting and cleaning so that as soon as I have enough money put aside, I will be ready to move out at a moments notice.

  298. Hi hoping for some help for me and billy. We are in need of car repair (check engine light and brake engine lights are on) I can’t get the vehicle inspected or registered without it passing emissions. Registration is due along with insurance. These things must be taken care of in order to drive and for me to provide for the both of us. Billy just got a new job which he will be working just on the weekends and earning a little bit of money for himself which will not be for any house hold expenses or bills, that is up to me to take care of. However I won’t be able to drive him if my car isn’t insured or registered. I am desperate I owe my landlady funds but right now i’m going to have to go with the most crucial and immediate. I’m not asking anyone individually to put anything on the gofundme if you can’t help no worries I understand. This is difficult to ask for assistance as it is but it’s worth a shot to put the word out there. If any of you here wouldn’t mind putting the word out that would be so great. I need to keep working and if I can’t get about 500 in repairs , my insurance, and registration taken care of I can’t work and we will be in a worse position. I have interviewed and put in applications and if I hear back I will not be able to accept positions where I can’t drive to get to work. I don’t mean to offend anyone by asking here and i’m grateful to dee for allowing me to post our needs and everyone has been so great in filling in gaps and helping. Right now I need to raise about 1,000 for repairs, insurance, registration, and inspection. I need more than this but I can worry about the rest later. I am putting out the most crucial and immediate need for me and billy and the car is a major need. If I get caught driving without these things it will be impounded and I make our situation even worse. I want to avoid doing this at all costs but we also need for me to get to and from jobs. Anyone I knew that could help with driving me came from our previous church and everyone knows how those relationships are no more. I live in an area where there is no buses and everything is country to far away to walk. I can’t afford a cab because if I could I could use that to put towards the car. I will be able to extend my registration for thirty days but not until I get insurance taken care of which is 80.00 for one month and have the funds for the extension and registration which will be another 100.00 Someone put 65.00 today towards the gofundme which will go towards the 1,000 i’m estimating that we need. so it brings me down to $935.00 please just pray for the funds that are needed to come especially if you don’t feel led to put anything on there or just can’t, it’s ok. I’m not asking anyone here individually for anything as I know there are many who are much worse off than us. This is very humbling and difficult to ask for help. Every cent has gone towards immediate needs since Dee started the gofundme and i’m hoping to have it where she can cancel it when I get a steady job that pays more consistently and provides a better income amount. Again i’m so sorry for asking and putting this out there. I have called prior claeaning jobs I have had and even a few members of LBC and was turned down hard. That was very difficult to have people hang up on you and call me names. It was hurtful and my pride took a huge hit. I was just trying to generate work I have no ill feelings towards the members of LBC just asking for work. Anyways I know there are others who have greater needs and I hope by asking here that i’m not taking away from them. Please just pray for more calls to come in for work while I wait to hear back from jobs I interviewed for. Here is the gofundme link
    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk
    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk
    Billy and Shauna’s GoFundMe

  299. Update on my status.
    I have food and gas for today.
    Rent ($565) is due – I have part of it, but still need about $125.
    Also, November bills start coming due next week – total $580.
    I am hanging on, but mentally struggling some this time.
    Any and all help adds up and is much appreciated, as are prayers. I really don’t know how to convey my gratitude. Thank you.

    http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

  300. Hi, I just managed to extend my registration for 1 month yesterday. I posted my gofundme again because it seems to get lost in the mix so I don’t mean to be rude by reposting it. Dee has a lot going on so I don’t want to bother her and since she started the gofundme for billy and myself i’m sure at some point she will update or make mention of it when she can, no rush for her to do that. I am so grateful to her for everything and so is billy. We will trust that God will take care of some of these needs. I have more interviews to go on so please pray for those as they will be next week! I’m excited….. My hope is to get something soon the holiday’s are coming and Christmas is already on billy’s mind. I would like to to get a handle on our most immediate needs before Christmas so I can meet some of billy’s wants. He will begin working a few hours on the weekend at the grocery store this weekend. I’m so proud of him. He wants to buy some things for himself and he likes his weekend job. Anyways if you could please go over what i’m reposting and pray for more house cleaning jobs, horse care jobs, anything that will fill in the gap until I am working full time again that would be so appreciated. Please also pray for those who have put anything on the gofundme because with out them I don’t know how we would have made it this far. It has been a tremendous blessing just as this blog has been to us. I am hoping that the update won’t get lost in the mix as I need to be able to drive my vehicle and get those two things done to it. Now my brake light may be due to when it was in the shop for the shifter cable and that may get corrected for free. Then it will be only a matter of the check engine light. Once that is taken care of I can get the car smogged and registered. My insurance for this month has been covered and we have some food. Please pray for these things that I post because if no money gets put on the gofundme then I know the Lord will provide a different way and it’s your prayers along with mine and billy’s that He hears and so far we have yet to go with out. Christ has not let us down. Thank you so much to Dee and Deb for allowing me to use their blog as a platform for Billy and to also have the gofundme posted here. It has been a wonderful way to see God work in mine and billy’s lives and to know that His people love us.

    Hi hoping for some help for me and billy. We are in need of car repair (check engine light and brake engine lights are on) I can’t get the vehicle inspected or registered without it passing emissions. Registration is due along with insurance. These things must be taken care of in order to drive and for me to provide for the both of us. Billy just got a new job which he will be working just on the weekends and earning a little bit of money for himself which will not be for any house hold expenses or bills, that is up to me to take care of. However I won’t be able to drive him if my car isn’t insured or registered. I am desperate I owe my landlady funds but right now i’m going to have to go with the most crucial and immediate. I’m not asking anyone individually to put anything on the gofundme if you can’t help no worries I understand. This is difficult to ask for assistance as it is but it’s worth a shot to put the word out there. If any of you here wouldn’t mind putting the word out that would be so great. I need to keep working and if I can’t get about 500 in repairs , my insurance, and registration taken care of I can’t work and we will be in a worse position. I have interviewed and put in applications and if I hear back I will not be able to accept positions where I can’t drive to get to work. I don’t mean to offend anyone by asking here and i’m grateful to dee for allowing me to post our needs and everyone has been so great in filling in gaps and helping. Right now I need to raise about 1,000 for repairs, insurance, registration, and inspection. I need more than this but I can worry about the rest later. I am putting out the most crucial and immediate need for me and billy and the car is a major need. If I get caught driving without these things it will be impounded and I make our situation even worse. I want to avoid doing this at all costs but we also need for me to get to and from jobs. Anyone I knew that could help with driving me came from our previous church and everyone knows how those relationships are no more. I live in an area where there is no buses and everything is country to far away to walk. I can’t afford a cab because if I could I could use that to put towards the car. I will be able to extend my registration for thirty days but not until I get insurance taken care of which is 80.00 for one month and have the funds for the extension and registration which will be another 100.00 Someone put 65.00 today towards the gofundme which will go towards the 1,000 i’m estimating that we need. so it brings me down to $935.00 please just pray for the funds that are needed to come especially if you don’t feel led to put anything on there or just can’t, it’s ok. I’m not asking anyone here individually for anything as I know there are many who are much worse off than us. This is very humbling and difficult to ask for help. Every cent has gone towards immediate needs since Dee started the gofundme and i’m hoping to have it where she can cancel it when I get a steady job that pays more consistently and provides a better income amount. Again i’m so sorry for asking and putting this out there. I have called prior claeaning jobs I have had and even a few members of LBC and was turned down hard. That was very difficult to have people hang up on you and call me names. It was hurtful and my pride took a huge hit. I was just trying to generate work I have no ill feelings towards the members of LBC just asking for work. Anyways I know there are others who have greater needs and I hope by asking here that i’m not taking away from them. Please just pray for more calls to come in for work while I wait to hear back from jobs I interviewed for. Here is the gofundme link
    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk
    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk
    Billy and Shauna’s GoFundMe

  301. New update on my status.
    I have food and gas for today.
    Rent is paid.
    Will need food and gas tomorrow.  November bills start coming due in a few days – total $580.
    I am hanging on, but the mental fight was/is rough this time.
    All help and prayers gratefully accepted, appreciated, and needed. The fact that you all have and continue to help me is amazing. Thank you.

    http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

  302. Update still need :

    Hi, I just managed to extend my registration for 1 month yesterday. I posted my gofundme again because it seems to get lost in the mix so I don’t mean to be rude by reposting it. Dee has a lot going on so I don’t want to bother her and since she started the gofundme for billy and myself i’m sure at some point she will update or make mention of it when she can, no rush for her to do that. I am so grateful to her for everything and so is billy. We will trust that God will take care of some of these needs. I have more interviews to go on so please pray for those as they will be next week! I’m excited….. My hope is to get something soon the holiday’s are coming and Christmas is already on billy’s mind. I would like to to get a handle on our most immediate needs before Christmas so I can meet some of billy’s wants. He will begin working a few hours on the weekend at the grocery store this weekend. I’m so proud of him. He wants to buy some things for himself and he likes his weekend job. Anyways if you could please go over what i’m reposting and pray for more house cleaning jobs, horse care jobs, anything that will fill in the gap until I am working full time again that would be so appreciated. Please also pray for those who have put anything on the gofundme because with out them I don’t know how we would have made it this far. It has been a tremendous blessing just as this blog has been to us. I am hoping that the update won’t get lost in the mix as I need to be able to drive my vehicle and get those two things done to it. Now my brake light may be due to when it was in the shop for the shifter cable and that may get corrected for free. Then it will be only a matter of the check engine light. Once that is taken care of I can get the car smogged and registered. My insurance for this month has been covered and we have some food. Please pray for these things that I post because if no money gets put on the gofundme then I know the Lord will provide a different way and it’s your prayers along with mine and billy’s that He hears and so far we have yet to go with out. Christ has not let us down. Thank you so much to Dee and Deb for allowing me to use their blog as a platform for Billy and to also have the gofundme posted here. It has been a wonderful way to see God work in mine and billy’s lives and to know that His people love us.

    Hi hoping for some help for me and billy. We are in need of car repair (check engine light and brake engine lights are on) I can’t get the vehicle inspected or registered without it passing emissions. Registration is due along with insurance. These things must be taken care of in order to drive and for me to provide for the both of us. Billy just got a new job which he will be working just on the weekends and earning a little bit of money for himself which will not be for any house hold expenses or bills, that is up to me to take care of. However I won’t be able to drive him if my car isn’t insured or registered. I am desperate I owe my landlady funds but right now i’m going to have to go with the most crucial and immediate. I’m not asking anyone individually to put anything on the gofundme if you can’t help no worries I understand. This is difficult to ask for assistance as it is but it’s worth a shot to put the word out there. If any of you here wouldn’t mind putting the word out that would be so great. I need to keep working and if I can’t get about 500 in repairs , my insurance, and registration taken care of I can’t work and we will be in a worse position. I have interviewed and put in applications and if I hear back I will not be able to accept positions where I can’t drive to get to work. I don’t mean to offend anyone by asking here and i’m grateful to dee for allowing me to post our needs and everyone has been so great in filling in gaps and helping. Right now I need to raise about 1,000 for repairs, insurance, registration, and inspection. I need more than this but I can worry about the rest later. I am putting out the most crucial and immediate need for me and billy and the car is a major need. If I get caught driving without these things it will be impounded and I make our situation even worse. I want to avoid doing this at all costs but we also need for me to get to and from jobs. Anyone I knew that could help with driving me came from our previous church and everyone knows how those relationships are no more. I live in an area where there is no buses and everything is country to far away to walk. I can’t afford a cab because if I could I could use that to put towards the car. I will be able to extend my registration for thirty days but not until I get insurance taken care of which is 80.00 for one month and have the funds for the extension and registration which will be another 100.00 Someone put 65.00 today towards the gofundme which will go towards the 1,000 i’m estimating that we need. so it brings me down to $935.00 please just pray for the funds that are needed to come especially if you don’t feel led to put anything on there or just can’t, it’s ok. I’m not asking anyone here individually for anything as I know there are many who are much worse off than us. This is very humbling and difficult to ask for help. Every cent has gone towards immediate needs since Dee started the gofundme and i’m hoping to have it where she can cancel it when I get a steady job that pays more consistently and provides a better income amount. Again i’m so sorry for asking and putting this out there. I have called prior claeaning jobs I have had and even a few members of LBC and was turned down hard. That was very difficult to have people hang up on you and call me names. It was hurtful and my pride took a huge hit. I was just trying to generate work I have no ill feelings towards the members of LBC just asking for work. Anyways I know there are others who have greater needs and I hope by asking here that i’m not taking away from them. Please just pray for more calls to come in for work while I wait to hear back from jobs I interviewed for. Here is the gofundme link
    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk
    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk
    Billy and Shauna’s GoFundMe

  303. @nm girl

    Now I get it that the IRS filing the lien is actually BETTER for you. I didn’t get that the first read through.

    I pray everything falls into place for you for moving to greener pastures. Your determination is praiseworthy. Rooting for you on all fronts: house, school, finances, job, and confident peacefulness.

  304. For Muff Potter:

    Gram3’s post on 5/24/16 about the roots of Patriarchy that we are seeing in Christian churches, NeoCalvinism:
    I would add to BradFuturist that Rousas Rushdoony was the fount of Reconstructionism (the Reformed version of Dominionism) which led to Federal Vision which plagues many PCA churches to this day. Federal Vision is Doug Wilson’s theology, though it is taught by Peter Leithart who is still inexplicably tolerated by the PCA.
    Dominionism was also promoted heavily in charismatic circles via TBN and other outlets. The connection between the charismatic form of Dominionism and the Reconstructionist version was Gary North who is Rushdoony’s son-in-law.
    Reconstructionism is a perversion of standard Covenant Theology. Some consider it merely an extreme form of Covenant Theology, but I disagree. As Brad said, they wish to establish a theocratic state modeled on the OT theocracy. They take that as a pattern for how we should do government and church and family. This includes the idea of Patriarchy.
    Federal Vision shifted the focus from establishing a theocracy to establishing a church that is the center of everything. There is much talk of priests, fathers as priests of their family, etc. Rather than a focus on individual conversion, the FV focuses on baptism and communion. One becomes a Christian by being baptized and one is baptized because one is born into a family headed by a Christian man.
    The word “covenant” is plastered all over a lot of different things, and I think it is important to keep those things separate lest we blame people who hold to standard Covenant Theology for the weirdness.
    I think a lot of Reconstructionist baggage got ported over to the YRR by guys reading Greg Bahnsen who was an affiliate of Rushdoony. He was a brilliant guy who was highly respected as an apologist in the Van Til school as was Rushdoony.
    Gothard is another thing entirely, as far as I know. Wheaton in the 60’s was not a Reformed stronghold. I believe that Gothard’s views were primarily shaped by a fundamentalist mindset in reaction to a liberalizing culture. The answer was more laws and rules rather than an emphasis on regeneration and the internal work of sanctification in the individual believer. He began his work helping parents who were frustrated with their teenagers’ rebellion. Any of us who have raised teenagers can identify with their desperation for answers, and Gothard offered a System for that just like our current Female Subordinationists offer a System which supposedly produces happy marriages and families.
    I think there was a lot of cross-pollination among these various streams of thought back in the 60’s and 70’s to get us where we are today. The Christian homeschooling movement is another place where ideas crossed over. Rushdoony decreed that homeschooling is the only Biblical way.
    The bottom line is that people will use whatever means works if what they desire is to rule over others. We have all been useful idiots, but typically in the present it is much easier to see when other people are being useful idiots. Retrospectively, some of us have been able to realize that we were useful idiots.
    That’s enough for a comment box. If you Google these names and movements, you will find a wealth of information.

  305. For: Muff Potter

    Posted by Brad/FutuistGuy on May 23, 2016:
    I thought about some key indicators, and remembered that a lot of them are in the lists for this post I wrote on “Calvinistas” a few years ago. Although Shepherding-type authoritarianism isn’t only in Neo-Calvinist/Neo-Puritan or Pentecostal settings, there is a common paradigm of thinking that always separates things into classes and categories, and that similarity goes far deeper than the doctrinal differences.
    https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2012/12/06/calvinistas/
    FWIW, here’s a bullet list of some of the items on those lists, and I’ll leave the descriptions of them over there.
    * Dualism
    * Reductionism
    * Perfectionism
    * Patriarchalism
    * Totalism and Authoritarianism
    * Dominionism
    About the only other thing I think I’d add to this is something having to do with the ways these groups tend to “collaborate.” If they engage in ministry partnerships at all, it’s like to be where there is high overlap on those other essential approaches to thinking processes, systems, personal growth or behavior modification, authority and subservience, and stance toward culture. And the rest of the churches-theologians-Christians are labeled as either non-gospel, heretical, etc.

  306. For: Muff Potter

    BL’s post on 5/24/16 adding to the information about Patriarchy’s players in American churches:
    Excellent synopsis, Gram!
    The charismatic river of Dominionism that came through the shepherding/discipleship movement was via Ern Baxter. He had worked with William Branham from whom Dominionism came through the Manifest Sons of God, The Latter Rain, and the End-Time Harvest Movements.
    This particular branch also flows through Mike Bickle (IHOP), C. Peter Wagner (NAR, & ‘Convening Apostle of the International Coalition of Apostles’), Francis Frangipane (River of Life), Che Ahn (former PDI pastor for 19 years, and one the NAR’s apostles), Kenneth Hagin & Kenneth Copeland (health & wealth quacks), Rick Joyner, Paul Cain, Lou Engle, James Goll, Chuck Pierce (Kansas City ‘prophets’), Jack Dennison (CityReach), Paul Cedar (Mission America Coalition), Ed Silvoso (Transformations), Tom White (City-Wide Prayer Movement), George Otis (Sentinel Group), Loren Cunningham (YWAM), Os Hillman (Marketplace Leaders), John Dawson (Taking Our Cities for God), Rick Warren (PDL), Bill Bright (Campus Crusade).
    That’s not an exhaustive list. The above folks are connected and interconnected together in mulitple ways.
    Finally, one pivotal man who connects the charismatic stream of C. Peter Wagner & the reformed stream of John Piper is Ralph Winter (US Center for World Mission, Perspectives on the World Christian Movement). Winter’s teachings on the Abrahamic covenant (as being the only covenant) – that this (the Abrahamic Covenant) is the ‘secret mission’ of the church.
    Quoting Winter:
    “Neither Matthew 26:28 nor mark 14:24, in the scene of the Last Supper, speak of the “new covenant, They read, “this is my blood of the covenant” not, as does Luke 22:20, “the new covenant in my blood.”
    “Apparently the word “new” is not the principal point of the passage but rather the fact that this act of outpoured blood finally ratifies and enables the same covenant in a new and ultimate sense. The sacrifice of the Cross is thus, at the very least, a definitive renewal of the Abrahamic Covenant, as we have already seen.”
    So, there you have it. There is no new covenant. Just a ‘ratification’ and ‘enabling’ of the Abrahamic covenant…
    .
    Terms to search: City Transformations, Seven Mountains Mandate, Marketplace Movement, Prayer Marching, Taking Our Cities for God, Spiritual Mapping, Spiritual Warfare, Latter Rain, Manifest Sons of God, Coalition on Revival, Global Mapping Project, The Lausanne Covenant, The Lausanne Movement, Loving Our Cities to Christ,

  307. For: Muff Potter

    siteseer wrote:
    Carbon dating saying one thing while the Bible says something very different.
    My grandmother was a Presbyterian, worked on the teams of Nobel Prize-winning researchers, and she believed in an Old Earth. (She died at 102.) Many of the scientists she worked with were also Christians who believed in an Old Earth.
    It’s my understanding that the Young Earth Creation movement is fairly new and that the literalists push it. They, of course, don’t take in to account the meanings of Hebrew words in the creation story and that one word has a whopping 58 different meanings.
    I also reject the Chicago Statement/Inerrancy of Scripture proponents because they are frankly nuts. They believe that ten local men should take over the local government, they believe in the overthrow of state governments and the U.S. government, they believe in
    a society modeled on a Biblical Patriarchy from the Old Testament (even though we have a new Covenant in the New Testament). The men behind the Chicago Statement also believe in slavery, that non-Christians should be enslaved (I guess anyone not in lock-step with them), and they deny the Holocaust occurred and seem to hate Jews.
    No thanks. I pass on their nonsense. I think they just want to legitimize their otherwise bizarre beliefs.

  308. For: Muff Potter

    Christiane on Sun Nov 06, 2016 at 04:19 PM said:
    Velour wrote:
    The men behind the Chicago Statement also believe in slavery, that non-Christians should be enslaved (I guess anyone not in lock-step with them), and they deny the Holocaust occurred and seem to hate Jews.
    goodness! who ARE these men?

  309. For: Muff Potter

    Velour wrote:
    a society modeled on a Biblical Patriarchy from the Old Testament (even though we have a new Covenant in the New Testament). The men behind the Chicago Statement also believe in slavery, that non-Christians should be enslaved (I guess anyone not in lock-step with them), and they deny the Holocaust occurred and seem to hate Jews.
    You’re a great researcher Velour. Can you provide factual data that these guys favor a return to the good old days and would indeed assist in the overthrow of a free society? The best place for the links would be the OD thread I think.
    Thanx.

  310. Velour UNITED STATES on Sun Nov 06, 2016 at 09:20 PM said:
    Muff Potter wrote:
    Velour wrote:
    a society modeled on a Biblical Patriarchy from the Old Testament (even though we have a new Covenant in the New Testament). The men behind the Chicago Statement also believe in slavery, that non-Christians should be enslaved (I guess anyone not in lock-step with them), and they deny the Holocaust occurred and seem to hate Jews.
    You’re a great researcher Velour. Can you provide factual data that these guys favor a return to the good old days and would indeed assist in the overthrow of a free society? The best place for the links would be the OD thread I think.
    Thanx.
    Muff,
    Some months ago when we discussed the Chicago Statement here on the threads (a few people mentioned it — perhaps Gram3, Lydia, and the others who know that kind of thing), I read
    the link first of all on Wikipedia. Then I used the names from that and researched the men behind it, including in my state (California). I found their websites. I was just…horrified.
    I think it’s the whole Dominionism thing that was mentioned. I did not save the links. It’s easy enough to figure out these mens’ thoughts.

  311. My family and I are being bullied by our rector, Bob Malm of Grace Episcopal Church in Alexandria VA. I believe he is taking these actions in retaliation for complaining about questionable HR, financial, cash management and governance practices in the parish.

    Bob’s actions including interfering with our ability to access the building, misusing memorial donations that were given in honor of family members, removing us from the parish directory, refusing a prayer request after I had a serious accident, and threatening to sue me. (The funds finally were returned after we threatened to sue.)

    Please visit my blog at http://www.graceepiscopalsurvivors.com to learn more. And if you’re so inclined, please spread word about my blog and help me stand up to Bob Malm’s bullying.

  312. Here is my latest status.
    A friend raided their freezer and I have food for a few more days. 🙂
    Rent is paid. THANK YOU!!
    Will need food and gas soon. 
    November bills are coming due now – total $580.
    I am doing better mentally than I was – thank you for your prayers.
    Any help you are able to give is greatly appreciated.
    Thank you all so much.

    http://www.www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

  313. I saw an orthopedic doctor for my shoulder pain this morning. I had good news and bad. The good news is that there is no break anywhere, no arthritis, and no bone spurs. The bad news is that the muscles holding the shoulder in the socket are very loose. The ball is riding on the cusp of the socket, causing me severe pain. The doctor is putting me in physical therapy for 2 months to hopefully tighten these muscles. I have Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome. This muscle problem is a classic problem that many of us with EDS suffer from. Many thanks for all your prayers. I may get the cast of my foot tomorrow morning. Not sure yet. But it could easily be 4 more weeks. I think my doctor will err on the side of caution and keep it on for 4 more weeks.

  314. Still nothing on the job front. I applied at several places. A few companies were willing to hire but not with enough hours that would make up for gas and time. I make more cleaning houses and can be home for billy. I put in for some city jobs in houston. Even though the commute is far the pay would compensate me for the time and gas. Please pray for me and billy as Thanksgiving is coming up and Christmas. I am working my butt off and I only make enough to barely cover the bills. Please take a look at the gofundme and share. The gofundme isn’t financially supporting us but it does help as a supplemental income until I can get into a more stable position financially. Thank you so much for your prayers. Harley i’m praying for you. Also I would like to share with you that using young living oil (blue spruce, idaho spur) works!!!!! I had a heal spur and it was really bad so bad that I could barely walk. I dismissed the essential oils that a lady gave me. It wasn’t until it got really bad that I pulled out the idaho spruce or spur and after a couple of days I had no pain. I didn’t even realize there was no pain. I normally wouldn’t swear by anything but i’m telling you try it. It can’t hurt to try it and if anything it will bring some relief maybe take of the edge if it doesn’t take the pain away all together. Use the young living if you try it. That stuff is potent. All I did was apply several drops to my heal and rubbed in in for a few nights it worked! I thought I was going to have to have surgery that is how bad it was for me.

    Okay please look at mine and Billy’s gofundme and share it if you all don’t mind.

    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

  315. Good Morning – is anyone else up and worrying about the future of our country? (No matter who you voted for, we’re fractured, though I happen to think we voted a bully into office.) Anyway, I’m writing to request prayers. I have been swamped at work, which is a new job with a big learning curve. Then on Monday my Dad, who is elderly, was placed back into hospice, and he refused to eat yesterday. I’m having difficulty keeping it together emotionally and professionally.

    Thanks!

  316. @ Former CLCer:

    I’m gradually setting up a new business in a new skill, which is also a big learning curve, so I sympathise! (And my Dad is in a care home, though he’s otherwise currently as well as may be.) Praying that God’ll support you keeping it together emotionally and professionally as requested.

    I share your worries. On the plus side, the new President has the joint-greatest respect for women of anyone in the world. On the downside, to paraphrase the late Margaret Thatcher: if you have to say, I respect women, you almost certainly don’t.

  317. P.S.

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    to paraphrase the late Margaret Thatcher…

    She said, at one point, that if you have to say you’re strong, you’re not. There’s a lot of truth in that.

  318. Former CLCer wrote:

    Good Morning – is anyone else up and worrying about the future of our country? (No matter who you voted for, we’re fractured, though I happen to think we voted a bully into office.) Anyway, I’m writing to request prayers. I have been swamped at work, which is a new job with a big learning curve. Then on Monday my Dad, who is elderly, was placed back into hospice, and he refused to eat yesterday. I’m having difficulty keeping it together emotionally and professionally.

    Thanks!

    go to somewhere on Sunday morning that offers the Lord’s Supper and where the people actually pray together; I think you will feel better for it, yes

  319. @ Former CLCer:
    You’re not alone in feeling distress about our future, in both the short and long term.

    I am really, really troubled and angry, too. I’m sure a lot of people feel the same way. I don’t know if that’s any consolation, though. It isn’t enough for me. We need to do something (many things, I’m sure) to bring about positive change. Right now, there are places to go for that, though I would rather not say anything else on-list. Dee has my email, though, and if she has the time, I would be more than happy to give her permission to send it to you, as well as for you to request it.

  320. @ numo:

    You also are not alone numo. I have the same fears you’ve expressed over at imonk, and I’ll leave it at that so as to not violate TWW’s no politics rule.

  321. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    It’s kind of like a teacher’s aide I spoke to a month ago who kept saying, “I have family members who are black.” If you have to point it out, there might be some racism still there.

  322. The cast stays on my foot for another 4 weeks. I expected that. This type of bone fusing takes a long time to heal. When the cast itches, I use makeup brushes that I bought just for this purpose. They are long and do the trick at getting to most of the itchy areas. I am trying to take things easier with my shoulder. Sleeping is still painful, but I have learned that propping my shoulder up on pillows at night helps out.

    On Friday we celebrate Veterans Day here in the U.S.A. My husband is a veteran along with a lot of other members in my family. I could actually be in the DAR if I so wanted, but never have. From the bottom of my heart, let me say a big Texan thank you for those who have served in the military in my country. These men and women fought for my freedom. Words are not enough to say how I feel.

  323. numo wrote:

    I am really, really troubled and angry, too.

    I’ve been through a number of presidential transitions and have discovered that no new president is nearly as good as the proponents had hoped, and not nearly as bad as the opponents had feared. It’s likely to be the case here as well. Our founding fathers wisely wrote a constitution that makes it difficult for any president to move the country very far in any direction.

    This election seemed to be more about opposing the establishment than anything else. Had both sides put up a non-establishment candidate I think the outcome might have been different.

  324. GMFS

    And Now: cricket

    Given the very personal and difficult subjects under discussion in the latest main threads, I decided the cricket update should go here today. As much as I honestly believe levity has a genuine role to play in the community here (and others supply better humour than I do in any case!), there’s a time and a place for it.

    Anyway, back to the topic in hand.

    England have just, in the last few minutes, been bowled out by India in the first Test – which everyone expected – but not before amassing 537 runs, which fewer people expected. Centuries for Root (124), Moeen (117) and Stokes (128) helped us recover from a rather poor 76-2 and 102-3.

    This was clearly an important toss to win, and I think it was probably a good thing for the series overall that we did. Had we lost the toss, been hit round the park for 600+ and then been skittled twice for an innings defeat, it would have made the series too predictable.

    By all accounts – and in particular, the text commentary on the Beeb – India didn’t do their own cause a great deal of help, with some uncharacteristically poor fielding. Bearing in mind that this remains a very flat wicket and the Indians can certainly bat, the match remains intriguingly poised. But England have a decent chance of making it last the full five days, at least. Given that former captain Michael Vaughn was predicting a 5-0 whitewash only a few days ago, that’s something!

    India have just begun their reply; 4-0 after the first over.

    IHTIH

  325. Ken F wrote:

    and not nearly as bad as the opponents had feared.

    I’d settle for not nearly as bad as HE himself said he would be ….. hopefully, he was blustering to a base that harbors great fear and prejudice towards ‘the others’,
    and he will not treat people as poorly as he has promised his base he would do in order to get their votes

  326. Ken F wrote:

    This election seemed to be more about opposing the establishment than anything else. Had both sides put up a non-establishment candidate I think the outcome might have been different.

    Very much agreed. What we’ve seen is plain and simple backlash to the establishment’s fielding of tweedledum and tweedledee as candidates.
    I’m an optimist though and believe that for all her faults, Columbia is still the gem of the ocean.
    And that she will endure…

  327. Christiane wrote:

    I’d settle for not nearly as bad as HE himself said he would be ….. hopefully, he was blustering to a base that harbors great fear and prejudice towards ‘the others’,
    and he will not treat people as poorly as he has promised his base he would do in order to get their votes

    Our political system will keep him relatively contained just like it has kept past presidents relatively contained. I’m more worried about the lawless riots that are breaking out. A grass-roots civil war would be very bad for our country.

  328. My name at the time I was at the Rebekah Home for Girls was Leann Heil. I was there from about 1974-1976. I have read so many awful things about the Roloff Homes and am very surprised. Yes, they had strict christian rules and a paddle was used ever now and then. Parents and Guardians would send their unruly girls to Rebekah to learn how to become a caring person basically. When you have an abundance of young girls in which most did not understand the word respect, let alone Jesus, there had to be some strict guidelines. I never witnessed the abuse that I had read about over the years, and am truly sorry that it happened. I can only say that while I was there, there was love, patience, teaching, kindness, some toughness. The Weatherfords and the Camerons amongst other workers did their very best as human beings to be there for each and every one of us. I thank God often that Lester Roloff gave me a place to be when my parents did not know what to do with me. The homes, the girls, the boys, the men, the women, the workers, the Roloffs, the Camerons, the Weatherfords, will and have always been in my prayers. Now here we are in November of 2016 and I still no not walk on water, buy by the grace of God I am saved! Leann Heil…

  329. Ken F wrote:

    Christiane wrote:
    I’d settle for not nearly as bad as HE himself said he would be ….. hopefully, he was blustering to a base that harbors great fear and prejudice towards ‘the others’,
    and he will not treat people as poorly as he has promised his base he would do in order to get their votes
    Our political system will keep him relatively contained just like it has kept past presidents relatively contained. I’m more worried about the lawless riots that are breaking out. A grass-roots civil war would be very bad for our country.

    So true.

  330. Ken F wrote:

    The political left is supposed to be tolerant. What is happening on the streets now makes no sense.

    IF the people protesting are peaceful, it makes a great deal of sense. You have to listen to why they are worried. KEN, peaceful protests have long been an American right, and when you have a large population of folks who, having been told by pollsters for some time that their candidate will win, and having listened to the frankly often vile comments of another candidate,
    then these protestors are ‘reacting’ to the news with an honest and open disappointment. They need to vent in a legal, orderly manner, and protesting in a non-violent way IS VERY AMERICAN, Ken.

    OTOH,
    IF you have lawless people breaking windows and smashing property, or stealing from stores, I have no sympathy with this crowd and I hope the police do their job to restore law and order to our streets.

  331. Ken F wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    So true.
    The political left is supposed to be tolerant. What is happening on the streets now makes no sense.

    Agreed.

    If I were a judge, I’d order every single one of them to take a Constitutional Law class at their local community college and get a good grade.

    But then, I thought the same thing of church members at my ex-church who kept insisting that we must have cities and states ban Sharia Law and *how important it was to do*.
    To which I would ask, “What were your grades in U.S. History, Political Science,
    Government, and if you took it Constitutional Law…from junior high through college?
    Anyone with decent grades should be able to explain that it would be unconstitutional
    in the first place which is why it doesn’t need to be banned. It’s already banned!”

  332. Christiane wrote:

    IF you have lawless people breaking windows and smashing property, or stealing from stores, I have no sympathy with this crowd and I hope the police do their job to restore law and order to our streets.

    Peaceful protests are great. But in the last few days we have been seeing news reports of riots, beatings, vandalism, and death threats. I’m hoping this does not become the new normal.

    You hit a great point – the disappointment that things did not turn out as expected. I personally feel like both major parties, along with the main stream media, failed the American people. Both parties offered deeply flawed candidates. Had the RNC and DNC been doing their jobs, we would have had better choices. And had the MSM been doing their job the vetting process would have happened much earlier. There were no revelations made in the last few months of the election that could not have been known MUCH earlier. The MSM was not being truthful with the American people. Had they been doing their job we probably would have had different choices. The system needs an overhaul, but violence and anarchy is not the path to get us there.

  333. Ken F wrote:

    Christiane wrote:

    IF you have lawless people breaking windows and smashing property, or stealing from stores, I have no sympathy with this crowd and I hope the police do their job to restore law and order to our streets.

    Peaceful protests are great. But in the last few days we have been seeing news reports of riots, beatings, vandalism, and death threats. I’m hoping this does not become the new normal.

    You hit a great point – the disappointment that things did not turn out as expected. I personally feel like both major parties, along with the main stream media, failed the American people. Both parties offered deeply flawed candidates. Had the RNC and DNC been doing their jobs, we would have had better choices. And had the MSM been doing their job the vetting process would have happened much earlier. There were no revelations made in the last few months of the election that could not have been known MUCH earlier. The MSM was not being truthful with the American people. Had they been doing their job we probably would have had different choices. The system needs an overhaul, but violence and anarchy is not the path to get us there.

    much to agree with here, but I’m not sure even the MSM knew what was going on ….. the country is SO divided, you could watch MSNBC and then turn to FOX and think you were on separate planets …. ‘bubbles’ much

  334. Christiane wrote:

    I’m not sure even the MSM knew what was going on

    I think they knew more than what they reported. I think the signs were there but they either did not want to believe it or they didn’t want to report it. They failed all of us. Solid and impartial journalism would have been a blessing to us. I’m hoping this will be a wake up call for the MSM.

    The best channel to watch on election night was The Weather Channel. Instead of their regular programming they broadcast nothing but nature scenes and soothing music. How awesome is that?

  335. Cricket

    At stumps on Day 3, India had moved on to 3000000-4, a lead of 2999463.

    Fitba’

    This evening, England play Scotland at Wembley. With both teams beset by a disastrous slump in form, it promises to be a pretty desperate 90 minutes of “sport” for any neutral spectators – indeed it could well be something of a race to the bottom in terms of quality, and if it isn’t a turgid draw, it will most probably be won by whichever side is less rubbish. As an English-born immigrant Scot (whose children, incidentally, consider themselves Scottish), I’m swithering over which side I’d most like to see lose, but if either side actually turns up and plays bold, good fitba’, I will be the first to eat humble pie and support them.

    As a side note, England vs Scotland matches are generally rather like the recent presidential election campaign, only a lot less good-natured and with a rather more acrimonious history.

    IHTIH

  336. P.S. I think I’ll follow the San Marino vs Germany match. That way I might see a goal.

  337. Christiane wrote:

    the country is SO divided,

    Perhaps we are not as divided as it seems on the surface. I note that in the primaries the democrats did not see their most far left candidate get the nomination, and the republicans did not vote in their most far right candidate. That was so in spite of the media agitation and the histrionics of some big names here and there and the self righteous drivel spewed about. At the same time I note that each group did indeed have somebody far this or far the other who got quite a few votes and people had the opportunity to go far had they chosen to do so. We did not so choose. We are not ready, democrat or republican, to go to the extremes that our several opponents fear that we will do or that the agitators on the one side or the dominionists on the other hoped we would do.

    A word from the liturgy: Peace.

  338. @ Ken F:
    just read their website, and I didn’t learn much other than they want you to pay money for their ‘classes’

    not a lot of detail is given, which is a caution light

  339. Christiane wrote:

    … a caution light

    Another one is that they describe the Perspectives course as “perhaps vital” for every believer. I have to stress: this is not a knockdown proof that they’re servants of stan*. It does give me pause, however.

    * That’s stan the deceiver, not Stan Wawrinka the tennis player.

  340. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    It seems to draw from quite a wide background. It includes material by John Piper, but it does not appear to be directly connected with the YRRs. My church will be kicking off a 15-week class with this material, so it makes me wonder.

  341. @ Velour:
    Funny thing is, after I left hyper-patriarchal circles I was able to see that they had their own Sharia laws that they want to put in place.

    Some young people of my acquaintance have expressed great fear of Trump’s VP. I need to look into the things they’re “quoting” to see how much truth is in the matter, and how much might be made-up libel or twisting the truth for political purposes. They have told me such things as “he wants to…”
    – take funding from AIDS and give it to gay conversion therapy
    – put a woman in prison for having a miscarriage
    – take away access to birth control and outlaw abortion so that only “backstreet abortions” will be available to women once again (I’m not trying to get into a pro-choice/pro-life debate here, I’m just quoting something that makes them deeply upset because they’re thinking of things like being raped and then being forced to carry a baby for nine months after… and yes, I know the baby is an innocent party. These are difficult such difficult topics. My heart hurts.)
    – there’s lots more, having to do with the VP-elect’s conservative christian values, probably.
    – and then they also are in a panic that Trump is going to destroy the economy to benefit himself and his cronies, and jobs are already hard to come by. Most of the young people I know are working two jobs to make ends meet, some of them three part-time jobs because businesses aren’t hiring full-time so they won’t have to provide medical coverage. Our own kids are working multiple part-time jobs and living at home (can’t afford to move out) and I am thanking the Lord for Obamacare because otherwise they would have no medical coverage, and it’s a critical need (those lovely pre-existing conditions that would not have been covered before Obamacare was passed). And Trump has sworn he’s going to do away with Obamacare. They don’t trust that he’s going to “replace it with something better” or even that there will be any kind of safety net for them.

  342. Ken F wrote:

    So far, all I can find is how he revolutionized world missions by focusing on unreached people groups rather than political boundaries.

    Er…







    … riiiiight.

  343. ION: Travel

    As most Wartburgers will be aware, the longest direct train journey in the UK is the daily 8:20 service from Aberdeen to Penzance, which covers around 700 miles and calls at 43 intermediate stations.

    Today’s service is running around 5 minutes late, the delay being incurred between Birmingham New Street and Cheltenham Spa. For some reason, it’s held up nearly every day on this stretch.

    IHTIH

  344. Velour wrote:

    Anyone with decent grades should be able to explain that it would be unconstitutional
    in the first place which is why it doesn’t need to be banned. It’s already banned!”

    Excellent comment Velour. Try getting that through the numb skulls of people throughout the country who are demanding anti-sharia statutes from their legislatures.
    I could add a comment as a close analogue… but sigh, it’s best to cease and desist, I’m already skating on thin ice here.

  345. Muff Potter wrote:

    Try getting that through the numb skulls of people throughout the country who are demanding anti-sharia statutes from their legislatures.

    people that are uninformed are sitting ducks for fearmongers

  346. Ken F wrote:

    @ Bridget:
    Thanks. It looks like the founder of this movement was Ralph D Winter. He was Presbyterian, but I think of the old kind. So far, all I can find is how he revolutionized world missions by focusing on unreached people groups rather than political boundaries. John Piper thought highly of him: http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/john-pipers-personal-tribute-to-the-late-ralph-winter. I’m not sure yet whether or not I should be worried.

    You may not know what they’re about until you see the teaching “and hear the interpretation” 😉

  347. Mara wrote:

    Uhm. No This guy has a better claim to that:

    Not everyone who does that survives. But this is what is held up as a model of missions. I have to look more into Ralph Winters. No major red flags yet, other than the glowing Piper endorsement.

  348. Bridget wrote:

    You may not know what they’re about until you see the teaching “and hear the interpretation”

    Yes. Even though they are allegedly writing in English it can seem like an unknown tongue that requires an interpretation.

  349. Ken F wrote:

    Does anyone out there have any experience with this group: http://www.perspectives.org/?

    As far as I can tell, this falls under Dominionism. It’s founder was Ralph Winter. I did some searching and his name keeps coming up under Dominionism and Kingdom Theology. Here is one example of an article I found: http://www.discernment-ministries.org/ChristianImperialism.htm. The list of associated ministries is extensive. Is there any safe place for fellowship?

  350. Fitba’

    Well, England are 1-0 up at half-time after a predictably poor first half.

    For some reason, Scotland’s kit is pink. And not in a good way.

    IHTIH

  351. As far as the perspectives course, I have heard good things about it from a few friends at different churches and got the impression it’s a bit open minded, but I don’t have personal experience.

    In other news, driving 8 hours to be with Dad tomorrow and probably see him for the last time.

  352. Former CLCer wrote:

    As far as the perspectives course, I have heard good things about it from a few friends at different churches and got the impression it’s a bit open minded, but I don’t have personal experience.
    In other news, driving 8 hours to be with Dad tomorrow and probably see him for the last time.

    Praying for you both.

    Hugs from California,

    Velour

  353. A prayer request: Here in the Southeast US, we’ve not had rain in some time, and there’s wildfires raging up and down from Georgia to Kentucky. A fire is burning not too far from where I am in north Georgia. It doesn’t look like we’re going to get any rain in the next few weeks, either. Pray that they can get the fires contained, and that firefighters are kept safe, please.

  354. ishy wrote:

    A prayer request: Here in the Southeast US, we’ve not had rain in some time, and there’s wildfires raging up and down from Georgia to Kentucky. A fire is burning not too far from where I am in north Georgia. It doesn’t look like we’re going to get any rain in the next few weeks, either. Pray that they can get the fires contained, and that firefighters are kept safe, please.

    Praying for everyone’s safety and for rain, Ishy.

  355. @ ishy:

    Oh my. We are also having a drought, after having rain to excess all summer. But no fires here that I know. I will pray for safety for all of you.

  356. GMFS

    Fitba’

    It finished 3-0 to England in the end. Scotland played some good fitba’ but, and this is the telling thing, were wasteful in front of goal. And rather disorganised at the back, it has to be said – all the goals were free headers.

    And Now:

    Cricket

    India are currently on 436-7, trailing by 101. Virat Kohli went for 40, given out: hit wicket – which is extremely unusual. It’s late on day 4 and you have to say that a draw remains the most likely result here.

    Elsewhere, Australia were bowled out for just 85 by South Africa in Hobart – Australia’s previous lowest score against the South Africans was 111. The Proteas are 171-5 in reply at the end of day 2. England’s women are going well against Sri Lanka in the ODI in Columbo – 198-4 after 35 overs with Natalie Sciver reaching her half-century off only 24 balls – but the Beeb are having some technical problems with the scorecard, so I can’t tell you any more on that one.

    IHTIH

  357. GMFS

    Fitba’

    It finished 3-0 to England in the end. Scotland played some good fitba’ but, and this is the telling thing, were wasteful in front of goal. And rather disorganised at the back, it has to be said – all the goals were free headers.

    And Now:

    Cricket

    India are currently on 436-7, trailing by 101. Virat Kohli went for 40, given out: hit wicket – which is extremely unusual. It’s late on day 4 and you have to say that a draw remains the most likely result here.

    Elsewhere, Australia were bowled out for just 85 by South Africa in Hobart – Australia’s previous lowest score against the South Africans was 111. The Proteas are 171-5 in reply at the end of day 2. England’s women are going well against Sri Lanka in the ODI in Columbo – 198-4 after 35 overs with Natalie Sciver reaching her half-century off only 24 deliveries – but the Beeb are having some technical problems with the scorecard, so I can’t tell you any more on that one.

    IHTIH

  358. Cricket update

    Well, we’re back from the supermarket and India were all out for 488. Thus, England have a first-innings lead; with only a little over a day left, a draw remains the most likely result.

    England are currently 84 without loss in their second innings, with debutant Haseeb Hameed on 48 (having just survived a rather optimistic lbw review). This is, apparently, the third highest score by a teenager playing in a Test for England. Only Denis Compton (65, at the Oval in 1937) and Jack Crawford (74, in Cape Town in 1906) are ahead of him.

    IHTIH

  359. ishy wrote:

    Pray that they can get the fires contained, and that firefighters are kept safe, please.

    will pray for your safety also

  360. Deebs,

    I’d like to that y’all for the political moratorium. There are other sources that discuss these issues, but ultimately seem to using them as ad hominem to support politics or an unusual doctrine. I remember an article on Patheos covering Mars Hill Church that suggested that Christians who should be disciplined in that way were those who voted Republican and listened to Rush Limbaugh. TGC’s new found obsession with politics made the policy difficult this year, but it was still handled prudently. I believe that’s the key to this blog’s success, its strong ecumenism in its community, and why we believe in your sincerity.

    With that said, Thabiti Anyabwile is garbage. Can I say that?

  361. Current status.
    A friend brought me some food a couple if days ago and another bought me some gas, so that’s good for a few more days. As always, these are ongoing needs.  
    A couple of November bills are late and most of the rest come due Monday. With late fess, the total now due is $620.
    I am continuing to seek my way out of this.
    The health issues remain at an impasse – not getting worse, but not improving, either.
    All that you all have done – financially and in prayer means so much.
    Thank you!

    http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

  362. Stan wrote:

    I’d like to that y’all for the political moratorium. There are other sources that discuss these issues, but ultimately seem to using them as ad hominem to support politics or an unusual doctrine.

    Gotta’ disagree with ya’ Stan. Julie Anne’s blog (spiritual sounding board) is hosting quite a lively and rational political discussion without the negatives you cite.

    Stan wrote:

    With that said, Thabiti Anyabwile is garbage. Can I say that?

    What was it you were saying about ad hominem?

  363. Muff Potter wrote:

    Julie Anne’s blog (spiritual sounding board) is hosting quite a lively and rational political discussion

    Maybe that’s why it’s been so quite on TWW over the last few days. Or to quote a movie cliche’ – “too quiet.”

  364. Ken F wrote:

    Or to quote a movie cliche’ – “too quiet.”

    The first Test did indeed end in a draw. Though not, it has to be said, a dull one.

  365. Ken F wrote:

    Maybe that’s why it’s been so quite on TWW over the last few days. Or to quote a movie cliche’ – “too quiet.”

    It’s been a difficult week. People are going where they can let off steam. They are trying to figure out what the ‘new normal’ might be.

    Some people’s comments were recently removed also, for good reasons, I’m sure;
    but that was noted and it does make people stop and think before commenting, which is as it should be.

  366. refugee wrote:

    Funny thing is, after I left hyper-patriarchal circles I was able to see that they had their own Sharia laws that they want to put in place.

    Exactly.

    I think the same about my insufferable former NeoCalvinist/9Marxist/John MacArthur-ite cult (it doesn’t deserve to be called a “church”).

  367. Ken F wrote:

    Maybe that’s why it’s been so quite on TWW over the last few days. Or to quote a movie cliche’ – “too quiet.”

    It may also be that the person who usually posts a lot here under several different names is too busy to comment …. just a thought

  368. With regards to the Memphis Church abuse post — Friday, 11/11

    Here’s a list of the realities of child sexual trauma.

    When child sexual trauma is not attended to for WHATEVER reason, here are the possible outcomes for that child. Which is more important: the welfare (i.e. feelings, reputation, approval, respect for, “godliness” of, etc.) of pastors, church or community leaders, celebrities, etc. or the child’s devastated life.

    “The child gets a life sentence” is not hyperbole or propaganda-speak, but the plain truth.
    ***************************

    Childhood sexual abuse has devastating affects upon the victim. It is not debated as statistics are overwhelming.

    Adults who have been sexually abused in childhood suffer greatly. This suffering includes what we will see in life, and in the language (statements), so much so, that it becomes “the expected” in analysis of statements made by victims of childhood sexual abuse.

    For this purpose, childhood sexual abuse will be abuse that includes sexual contact, sexualized environment (including exposure to pornography, sexualized conversation, etc) and even “play” that includes the touching of genitalia. It will be pre-pubescent in scope, which is not to minimize the impact of adolescents nor adults who experience sexual abuse; it is only to limit the realm of the article as to explain why “unspeakable” is used here, and in analysis.

    a. Suicidal ideation, which does, at times, lead to attempts and suicide itself.

    b. Self-destructive tendencies, consistent with desire to end one’s life or punish oneself. This includes substance abuse (drugs and alcohol), and risky behavior (including promiscuity), as well as sabotaging one’s own success (deliberately failing various elements of testing in life, including school and career). In short, anything that “punishes” the victim, caused by the victim, is self destructive and often evident in teenaged girls who were sexually abused prior to the onset of adolescence.

    c. Guilt The victim needs no one to say “you caused this”, or “you were complicit with the perpetrator” as the victim will likely blame herself (or himself, though my focus is going to be on women for this article) The guilt is often heightened when the adult victim of childhood sexual abuse admits who perpetrated the sexual abuse. The victim feels as if she “hurt” or brought harm to the perpetrator, merely by acknowledging what he did to her. This is powerful and sometimes can be a dominant theme that often arises after she has raised her own children to adulthood.

    The re-victimization, in spite of the victim’s own guilt, does increase the suffering. This re-victimization can come from many sources including well-meaning families, the natural denial and minimization that parents experience and exhibit, the court system that values her life in such cheap terms, the dismissive therapist or medial professional, and even the Statement Analyst who erroneously sees deception within the specific language of the victim. Hence, an important and invaluable training element for all who treat or care for victims of childhood sexual abuse including professionals who investigate claims.

    d. Depression where the subject feels low energy, melancholy, listless, without hope, low interest in life, reduced sensitivity of taste buds, reduced ability to sense pleasure, etc. This can lead to many other issues (including substance abuse) where adrenaline is sought after. Some teenaged girls will evidence depression by stopping eating, while others may eat and stuff themselves to appear “unattractive” to the abuser.

    The food issue: When a victim of childhood sexual abuse is a 16 year old girl, and is thin, and looks in the mirror and says how “fat” she is, we know that:

    1. Scientifically, she is not fat, obese, or overweight. We can measure her weight, and we can measure her body fat content and overall health, with scientific precision, by scientific conclusions. She may “see” herself as “fat”, but she is, scientifically, not fat. She “feels” she is “fat”, and this is not only wrong (incorrect), but it is a distinctly subjective measurement.

    2. To acquiesce to her “feelings” or her perspective would be to take the subjective and call it objective. It takes the scientific and dismisses it. It exchanges fact for feeling.

    What are the consequences for such thinking?

    It would mean, in today’s popular subjective standard:

    To starve her to death, while calling her a hero, because “her reality” says she is “fat” while science says she is thin, is to abuse her further.

    Even if it is in the name of “civil rights”, and even if she is praised as “courageous” and becomes beloved across the world, it is abusive and the results will be her demise. All the subjectivity in the world will not trump the scientific fact that what she “feels” is not what is, and the consequences are deadly and far reaching, especially when, not if, but when, this argument is applied to other areas of life, including childhood sexual abuse.

    e. Anxiety that exceeds what most people experience in our uncertain lives. This includes an overall feeling of doom, or sometimes described as living “a bad dream that does not end”, so that the uncertainty is rarely ever given relief. Since all of us feel anxious or even anxiety over the many dangers and uncertainties of life, there may be a lack of coping ability within the adult victim of childhood sexual abuse, that is not understood by the general population and there may be a very sound reason for it, scientifically, which we will not only seek to learn, but seek to understand as it enters her language.

    Parental Issues

    Most victims of childhood sexual abuse do not go on to molest their own children. This is stat number one.

    Stat number two is that most all parents who offend on their children were victims of some form of childhood sexual abuse.

    It does not come from a vacuum. This is why I wrote, “there is much more to the Duggars’ story than what is told” as the expected minimization and denial have something behind them.

    Many survivors of childhood sexual abuse go on to become loving parents, but the successful ones are often those who recognize how easily they could fall into the “pendulum” of response:

    f. Failure to Protect is, sadly, sometimes the result of childhood sexual abuse. The victim, as a mother, fails to protect her own children; perhaps unable to recognize the patterns before her. The neglect can also come from depression, denial, or a feeling of inevitability; that is, a fatalistic, “I can’t stop men, anyway” viewpoint.

    g. Hyper Vigilance of her children, so terrified that they may become victims, the mother actually sets up the child for bullying, as she is over protective and refuses to let her child learn how to negotiate life for himself or herself. They inevitably instill anxiety into their own children. Some mothers will chop off their daughters’ hair, and dress them as “unfeminine” as possible, not wanting the child to appear “attractive” to the abuser.

    Those who process, either through the assistance of trained professionals, or through their own journaling, have the best odds for success. They will never be “healed”, yet they may experience a great measure of healing in their lives. The scars will always be there, but the ‘sting’ can be reduced, and for those who live successful productive lives, what is not known to the outside world is just how many days they went to work, wow’d employees with their productivity, but thought about killing themselves before they even got dressed for that day’s work.

    Only they know, and, sometimes, those who love them. Yet the years of interviewing have taught me:

    The victim of childhood sexual abuse, no matter how much she shares, and how marvelously emotionally intelligent and successful she is, suffers in ways of which she shares with none in this world.

    h. Compromised Immune System. I often say that cancer did not kill Susan Murphy Milano, but being raped by her father did. When she sacrificed herself to save her little sister from her father’s rape, she did just that: she sacrificed herself. She did not simply let the rapist exhaust his rage upon her in saving her sister, she took upon herself a life time of suffering of which her body, with more energy than most of us, could not sustain the assaults of disease. She literally laid down her life for another.

    Susan wrote about her life in “hell”, which, especially as I read its brutal, unedited form, was more than I could bear, as I had to, for a bit, walk away, compose myself, and return to the work she so much wanted and needed to share with the world. Courage? She had it in abundance.

    We do not know how severely impacted a woman victim of childhood sexual abuse’s immune system is, but those who work in the field, on behalf of victims, routinely report that they are more plagued with health issues than the general population. What sounds incredible to us, is more common to victims, such as what I mentioned recently: women who’s limbs go numb, randomly, of whom doctors think are being foolish until it happens in the office.

    Since our bodies fight off many diseases that are never diagnosed (since they do not manifest), we are not able, yet, to measure just how bad it is for a woman victim to be, in terms of life’s daily health issues.

    In interviewing adult victims of childhood sexual abuse, as well as interviewing social service professionals, treating psychologists, doctors, nurses, case workers, case managers, and other treatment teams, the impact is acute, no matter where it shows itself.

    In Statement Analysis, we allow the woman victim’s own words to guide us. (Male victims often speak differently, and this will be covered in a separate article).

    There is no argument of the devastating affects upon women who were sexually abused in childhood.
    http://statement-analysis.blogspot.com/2015/06/the-unspeakable-horror-of-childhood.html

    ***************************
    Really…..which is more important? The admittedly difficult/awful battle involved in reacting rightly to child exploitation, OR . . . . . . . your child’s LIFE?

  369. Ken F wrote:

    The political left is supposed to be tolerant. What is happening on the streets now makes no sense.

    It makes perfect sense if you consider that there are people who are concerned they’re going to be deported to countries they don’t know, there are persons of a minority religion concerned they’re going to have to register for God only knows what, and persons of color worried about being abused. I can understand the great frustration, particularly when the president-elect decides to bring someone into his inner circle of government who has problems with minority religions and people of color.

    And let me be blunt here, and speaking as someone with a BA in government (political science, but hey, in Texas we had to be different). We do not have a “Left” as in European-style “Left” in the USA. We have a far-Right and a center-Right. In some ways, even the British Tories would be too flaming liberal for the American electorate. But don’t go on about a “Left,” particularly a “Left” with political power in the USA, because it simply does.not.exist as a viable political movement.

  370. Velour wrote:

    If I were a judge, I’d order every single one of them to take a Constitutional Law class at their local community college and get a good grade.

    I *have* taken those courses (both in undergrad and law school) and I flatly disagree with this. People have the right to peaceably assemble and to petition for redress of grievances. That’s part of the First Amendment, along with freedom of religion and freedom of the press. General protests are not a crime. Being dissatisfied with the outcome of an election is not a crime.

    Suppressing protests only leads to rioting. I was only a girl in the late 1960s, but compared to then, this is downright peaceful.

  371. refugee wrote:

    – put a woman in prison for having a miscarriage

    Indiana has a feticide law. Purvi Patel was convicted of violating it and she was sentenced to 20 years. Her sentence was overturned on July 22, 2016.

    I’m not saying any more about this case because it’s very complex and the evidence is contradictory. I’m giving the defendant’s name so you can do your own research.

  372. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    As most Wartburgers will be aware, the longest direct train journey in the UK is the daily 8:20 service from Aberdeen to Penzance, which covers around 700 miles and calls at 43 intermediate stations.

    Today’s service is running around 5 minutes late, the delay being incurred between Birmingham New Street and Cheltenham Spa. For some reason, it’s held up nearly every day on this stretch.

    Livestock on the tracks, maybe?

  373. Christiane wrote:

    Ken F wrote:
    Maybe that’s why it’s been so quite on TWW over the last few days. Or to quote a movie cliche’ – “too quiet.”
    /
    It’s been a difficult week. People are going where they can let off steam. They are trying to figure out what the ‘new normal’ might be.

    I’ll admit I’ve been one of those people, but I think I was much more disturbed by the horrible things I saw people close to me write on Facebook than anything. I do not believe fighting hate with hate is the right way to deal with issues, and there was things that should never be said about another human being.

    I’ve also been fighting a nasty sinus infection from the weather and from the smoke, so that hasn’t really improved my mood. The fire that was fairly close is out, but they are still raging in the mountains despite the rain we had over the weekend.

  374. @ ishy:
    sorry to hear you are suffering ….. anyway to get an oxygen treatment for your smoke irritation? My memere’s old Canadian remedy for sinus trouble: pour boiling water into a large bowl and put in a couple tablespoons of Vicks vaporub …. put a large towel over your head and breathe the steam

    It’s been a rough week, yes. People need reassurance but I’m not sure there’s much to be had. Get well soon, Ishy.

  375. Christiane wrote:

    It may also be that the person who usually posts a lot here under several different names is too busy to comment …. just a thought

    I couldn’t possibly comment.

    Best regards,
    God

  376. Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    Livestock on the tracks, maybe?

    Well, it has happened – Lesley and I were once delayed waiting for a train from Stirling to Glasgow, due to “coos an the line”.

    The countryside between Birmingham and Cheltenham, however, is overwhelmingly arable farmland. It does have the Lickey Descent, but I think the delays are more to do with signalling at junctions.

  377. @ God:
    Dear God,
    I forgot about you. I’m sorry Nick. 🙂 Nope, wasn’t referring to you at all, you are someone who keeps everyone’s spirits up around here. No ‘negativity’ in your comments or game-playing (other than reporting on the fitba-rugby or soccer or cricket). And in the persona of God, you make Dee laugh, which she needs, bless her heart.

    No, God it wasn’t you I was thinking of. Sorry.
    It was someone from the other end of the spectrum entirely. 🙂

  378. Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    We do not have a “Left” as in European-style “Left” in the USA. We have a far-Right and a center-Right.

    If we don’t have a political left, then who is doing all the protesting? I think you mean we don’t have a party which represents the people in this country who identify as left, which is exactly the point I made earlier. I personally believe that if the “left” had put up a viable political outsider they would have won by a landslide. The “right” opposed DJT all through the primaries, but he won anyway, probably because he was not from the establishment.

    The mainstream media did a terrible job. Some of the polls got it right, but the MSM pretty much ignored those polls. Had the MSM done their job, there would not have been so many surprises. In fact, the left might have chosen a different candidate that could have won had the left not done so much to fight for HRC.

    I applaud your Sunday protests. But I don’t applaud the types of protests happening in some of the major cities, such as Portland. When you (meaning you personally) protest, you don’t block traffic, you don’t deface building and monuments with graffiti, you don’t break store windows, you don’t vandalize cars, you don’t intimidate people, you don’t threaten people, etc. That makes your protests very effective. It’s hard to find a more liberal city than Portland, so who are the protesters targeting? Other liberals? It’s not like they can easily find conservatives there to target. And what are they protesting? Are they suggesting that the election was fraudulent or stolen? Or do they just not like the outcome? Had the election gone the other way there would have been about an equal number of people in disagreement with the outcome. But I don’t think they would have started riots. The rioting is bad and should not be tolerated in a country like ours.

    Maybe it’s the surprise factor. But that’s the fault of the MSM. Maybe the protests should target the MSM?

  379. Ken F wrote:

    had the left not done so much to fight for HRC.

    Sorry, I meant to type “had the MSM not done so much to fight for HRC.”

  380. Christiane wrote:

    My memere’s old Canadian remedy for sinus trouble: pour boiling water into a large bowl and put in a couple tablespoons of Vicks vaporub …. put a large towel over your head and breathe the steam
    Get well soon, Ishy.

    My mom used to do that with Italian seasoning. I never thought to do it with vaporub. I was thinking about getting some vaporub, and forgot today.

    Thank you. 🙂

  381. Christiane wrote:

    It may also be that the person who usually posts a lot here under several different names is too busy to comment …. just a thought

    You have made a comment about this in the past. If you have a concern, address it to the Deebs. They are pretty on top of people who try to do that. I won’t go into specifics, but they can check things behind the scenes.

    Personally, I don’t see that someone is doing that on these threads.

  382. trs wrote:

    Really…..which is more important? The admittedly difficult/awful battle involved in reacting rightly to child exploitation, OR . . . . . . . your child’s LIFE?

    Some people simply don’t get it unless they walk in the shoes. Empathy and concern is completely lacking.

  383. Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    If I were a judge, I’d order every single one of them to take a Constitutional Law class at their local community college and get a good grade.
    I *have* taken those courses (both in undergrad and law school) and I flatly disagree with this. People have the right to peaceably assemble and to petition for redress of grievances. That’s part of the First Amendment, along with freedom of religion and freedom of the press. General protests are not a crime. Being dissatisfied with the outcome of an election is not a crime.
    Suppressing protests only leads to rioting. I was only a girl in the late 1960s, but compared to then, this is downright peaceful.

    I am not opposed to “peaceable protests”. What I am opposed to is what some are doing: breaking stuff and lawlessness. That loses credibility. And it’s also criminal.

    In interviews when I’ve watched people explain their upset, and violence, they have no constitutional clue what they are talking about and are completely uneducated.

    A Constitutional Law class could help them understand the big picture, without the need to resort to violence.

  384. Velour wrote:

    A Constitutional Law class could help them understand the big picture, without the need to resort to violence.

    I don’t think the protesters understand how limited the president is. He still has to work through congress. Without a super-majority in the senate it will be very hard for DJT to make sweeping changes. He is going to turn out to be much more liberal than the right is hoping for, but not as liberal as the left would like. He’ll probably end up being somewhat middle-of-the-road in a way that will disappoint both “sides.”

  385. Ken F wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    A Constitutional Law class could help them understand the big picture, without the need to resort to violence.
    I don’t think the protesters understand how limited the president is. He still has to work through congress. Without a super-majority in the senate it will be very hard for DJT to make sweeping changes. He is going to turn out to be much more liberal than the right is hoping for, but not as liberal as the left would like. He’ll probably end up being somewhat middle-of-the-road in a way that will disappoint both “sides.”

    Spot on, Ken F.

  386. So my Dad went to be with Jesus yesterday. I had driven to see him and he was already pretty out of it, and then he died the next day. Two of my sisters, their husbands, and a cousin were with him holding his hands, and I was signing Amazing Grace, so it was a special moment. Now I”m back home for a few days and the services will be Friday night and Saturday. Thanks for everyone’s encouragement here.

  387. Former CLCer wrote:

    So my Dad went to be with Jesus yesterday. I had driven to see him and he was already pretty out of it, and then he died the next day. Two of my sisters, their husbands, and a cousin were with him holding his hands, and I was signing Amazing Grace, so it was a special moment. Now I”m back home for a few days and the services will be Friday night and Saturday. Thanks for everyone’s encouragement here.

    So glad for this special time you had with your Dad before he went to be with Jesus!

    My condolences for your loss.

  388. FROM SHAUNA AND BILLY, I HAVE GREAT NEWS!!!!!! I GOT A JOB TODAY!!!!!! Thank all of you for your support, prayers, and incredible encouragement especially with the gofundme. I am way behind and still want to post the gofundme link here if that is still ok with everyone. A special shout out to Dee she has been amazing in caring for billy and I.

    The JOB….. I will be working at HEB in the bakery department. The Manager offered me a pay at 12.50 an hour. She saw my resume and background in customer service. I also answered the questions in regards to customers and she stated that I have the background they need to justify starting me out at 12.50 normally they would start me at 9.00 an hour especially since I don’t have any experience in the bakery. It is part time but with the holidays and me proving my worth I think I can make this into a full time position or at least close to it. I know there are other jobs out there that are more in line with my experience but HEB is an excellent company and they are growing rapidly. I think I can really work hard and move up fast. I talked to billy and he is excited about this to. He is ok with the kind of hours I will have to work and being home alone during that time. I will be working early early mornings but will be here in the evenings and afternoons unless I pick up extra hours. I am going to be working my butt off and taking whatever I can to catch up.

    My phone is about to get shut off , our utilities are due by friday, I owe my landlady , we need food, gas, my car needs to be repaired with the check engine light and brake light, billy needs personal items, and then there’s Thanksgiving and Christmas. Please pray that the gofundme may receive some funds to cover some of this just until I can generate some paychecks and then take over my finances. I can’t believe I can say taking control of my finances. This job is going to give us some security and hopefully allow me to do more for us in just taking care of the most basic needs without worrying so much. I have been struggling lately with an intense burning in my stomach and i’m not sleeping. I think it’s an ulcer and stress from worrying about when were eating next. I now don’t have to stress so much. God is taking care of us no matter what happens. I am so beyond grateful to all of you here for your prayers, support, and encouragement. Thank you Velour for always being so helpful and encouraging. I am so excited that I would hug all of you here if I could.

    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

  389. Hi Deana (I still remember you as Mirele),

    Ken read me your below statement :

    “speaking as someone with a BA in government (political science, but hey, in Texas we had to be different). We do not have a “Left” as in European-style “Left” in the USA. We have a far-Right and a center-Right. In some ways, even the British Tories would be too flaming liberal for the American electorate. But don’t go on about a “Left,” particularly a “Left” with political power in the USA, because it simply does.not.exist as a viable political movement.”

    I spent 27 of my 51 years living in six countries in Western Europe, so I am quite familiar with the philosophies/ideologies of Western style socialist/communist/green party and other socio-democratic movements and parties. The other 23 years I spent living in the US and observing its political climate as it has fluctuated over the years. I took one poli-sci class here in the US after I married Ken, but got pregnant and was ordered on bed rest so I couldn’t finish the semester (but it did produce our daughter). I was wondering if you could point me to the differences between the American Progressive branch of the Democrat party and the traditional Western European Left leaning parties. With the totality of my own family still living there in three countries, I can tell you that the European left absolutely adore both Obama and Hillary Clinton. I have a difficult time being able to point out the political and philosophical differences between the traditional European Left and the Progressive Democrats such as Hillary Clinton and President Obama. Do you have any kind of articles you could point me to that would help me clarify the differences so I don’t make an error in judgement and assessment?

  390. Bridget wrote:

    Christiane wrote:

    It may also be that the person who usually posts a lot here under several different names is too busy to comment …. just a thought

    You have made a comment about this in the past. If you have a concern, address it to the Deebs. They are pretty on top of people who try to do that. I won’t go into specifics, but they can check things behind the scenes.

    Personally, I don’t see that someone is doing that on these threads.

    Your comment is noted. 🙂

  391. Former CLCer wrote:

    So my Dad went to be with Jesus yesterday.

    So sorry to hear of your loss. It was good that those who loved your father were supporting him at the end of his earthly journey. I know you will find great comfort in your faith. I did when I lost my dear Pop. God Bless you and comfort you now and in the coming time.

  392. Status today
    I have food and gas for the week. 🙂
    As always, these are ongoing needs.  
    All but one of November bills are paid. That one is partially paid and the balance needed to bring it current (with late fees) is $220.
    While keeping my eyes open for the next step, I am working on a book….a collection of essays on religious topics. A little scary, that. 🙂
    The health issues are still at an impasse – some modes not covered by insurance have been suspended pending finances.
    Again, as always, i am so grateful for the love and support I have received from all of you. It often seems too good to be true. 🙂
    Thank you so much and may your generosity be a blessing to you.

    http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

  393. Congratulations, Marquis, on the new job!

    I will continue to pray for you and Billy, and your needs.

  394. @ Bridget

    Sadly true.

    Families who go with the cover-up of their child’s abuse just don’t get that THEY will be paying the bill for the rest of their lives, just so the church leaders can continue on in their cushy lifestyle.

    And most probably everyone will blame the child for all the difficulties they face as a grown-up.

    evil, evil, evil

  395. OK, so as not to disturb the serious issues being discussed on the main blog, I’m putting this here.

    Today, I picketed (briefly) Pastors School (a Jimmy Evans production) which is being held at the House of Mark Driscoll up in Scottsdale. They had an off-duty Scottsdale cop in the parking lot. No kidding. I did mention on Facebook I was going out today, so I suspect someone I have recently friended may be an attendee at the House of Driscoll. *shrug* I’m open about what I’m doing.

    Anyway, after I got back, I thought, I wonder how much it costs to hire an off-duty Scottsdale cop? And the answer is: a minimum of $42.13 an hour. So I did some back of the envelope calculations (I am not going to show my math) and determined that since July 10, 2016, when the officer first started showing up, Mark Driscoll’s ego boost has spent $2,864.84. The cop is out there for 4 hours on a Sunday, so that’s $168.52. I am so very tempted to put all this information on a sign, with Velcro, and change the amount every week, just like they change the amount on the jackpot sign at the Casino Arizona, which I drive by every time I go to Scottsdale.

    And, for the record, I’ve spent nowhere near that amount. And most of that went to buy a GoPro for my own personal protection.

    I didn’t include today in the figures, so I suspect Driscoll has indeed spent over $3,000 for a cop to protect him from a fat, middle-aged woman troubled by intermittent sciatica.

  396. @ Former CLC’er

    What a wonderful home-going for your dad. He was loved right into the arms of Love Himself. Great that you could be there singing him into the heavenly throne room. What a fantastic way to go.

    Thanks for letting us look into the moment. Goose-bumps, here.

  397. @ marquis

    A special celebration victory fist bop conga is being performed in honor of your awesome news. Wow!!! Y.E.S.!!!!!! Air punches — the WORKS.

    Just the B.E.S.T. !!!

  398. @ Jeanette

    Wow. Hope everything with the book goes super well.

    We can all say “we knew you when . . . ” Cool.

  399. @ Dee

    LOL Yeah. You are soooooooooooo scary alright.

    Well, he has to have that “opposition” to show how much he is suffering and enduring for . . . whatever it is he IS doing. (Not anything to do with the Gospel, that’s clear as light.)

    You know — persecution — holding a sign right there on the corner by the church. He better fork out the bucks for his own safety.

    Still LOL

  400. @ trs:
    Thanks. For some reason I used to pray that God would take my parents home at just the right time. Maybe it was a selfish prayer, being the youngest and the only single one in the family. And God truly honored it with both my parents. The night before my Mom died we had an even bigger group around her bedside singing. So precious. It has truly taught me that death is a part of life and reduced any fear I might have had.

  401. @ Muff Potter:

    That is intentional self-effacement on my part.

    https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/thabitianyabwile/2016/11/09/4-problems-associated-with-white-evangelical-support-of-donald-trump/

    Thabiti is concerned with the moral credibility of the church, but continues to support “his friend” CJ Mahaney. He’s concerned about the church promoting racism, but let The Gospel Coalition promote him as Doug Wilson’s black friend:

    https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/thabitianyabwile/2013/04/18/a-final-wrap-up-thabiti-anyabwile-and-douglas-wilson/

    He’s no advocate of anything except the party line of his gospel(TM)-centered masters.

  402. Former CLCer wrote:

    The night before my Mom died we had an even bigger group around her bedside singing. So precious. It has truly taught me that death is a part of life and reduced any fear I might have had.

    Beautiful comment.

  403. Marquis – I was down in your area last Friday. We even drove by Billy’s high school. I thought of you then. I am so glad you got a good job. HEB is a great store, and run by a good christian family. At one time they ran a summer camp for girls. Don’t know if they still do that or not. Wish we had a HEB in our town, but we did just get a Aldis last week.

    I started physical therapy on my shoulder yesterday. Hurt a lot afterwards. The therapist had to work out a lot of the inflammation in my shoulder, which was painful. I go back tomorrow. I will be going 2x a week for a couple of months or so.

    It’s almost Thanksgiving time. I have a lot to be thankful for. My health may not be the greatest, but I still serve a God who loves me and cares for me. That’s enough.

  404. Update: the stress finally got to me. I have not really been able to concentrate on school stuff since the house crap started in april. Last week, I dropped organic chemistry. that pushes pharmacy school back at least a year. but at this point, the idea of 4 years of pharm school makes me sick and I know I wouldn’t do well.

    so, I’m doing all the little things around the house that I had not gotten to before. but most are little 15 minute things that don’t require much thought. I am also packing up all the stuff I really don’t need in the kitchen etc.

    when my 2 week brain break is over after thanksgiving, I will get to studying for my pharm entrance exam in January. All the modules are pretty short so I can study, take a break and not force myself to study for hours at a time. I am also trying to get more exercise and work on the dog’s training. He has forgotten most everything he knows in the last couple of years.

    applied for another part time job at Pizza hut and if I don’t get that will get uber up and running. I have no idea how long the lenders will let me stay in the house, but I want to be able to move out with little notice.

    I’ve got to keep my mind occupied and away from politics. I started this post to get my mind off what I’m reading. i was sitting here trying to decide if I was going to cut off a long term friend because I know she voted for dt because of the abortion thing. she’s a good catholic after all. I don’t think cutting her or anyone else off is a good idea because if the election taught me one thing, it’s that inside my liberal white female bubble, I have no clue what is going on in the world.

  405. @ Stan:

    My apologies if I appeared combative, but I stand on my previous statement that it’s indeed possible to have rational and respectful political discussion. Julie Anne’s blog has demonstrated such.

  406. @ former CLC’er

    God’s goodness, even at the death of someone you really don’t want to say good-bye to, continues to amaze me. Thanks for sharing the blessings.

    On my mom’s last day, the Hospice nurse was a believer who shared her story of coming to know Christ’s love through a Hospice doctor when her own (late-20’s) husband was dying. She told us her husband’s first Resurrection Day celebration was in the presence of the Lord. We were so blessed by her being there.

    We all held hands with my mom and committed her to Jesus and also sang a few songs. Just being all there together with my mom in those moments was so rich, even though sad.

    My mom had been diagnosed with ovarian cancer 14 days before and given 2 weeks to live. BIG SHOCK!! The doctors were totally accurate in their forecast.

  407. @ Harley

    I grimace along with you in your pain. Pain is not on my list of Favorite Things to Do. That’s for sure.

    I like your down-home, unsugar-coated faith in the midst of life’s realities.

    So good to be reminded of what you said > > > No matter WHAT, God loves us.

    “That’s enough.” Reminds me of: “but he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” I will all the more gladly boast of my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.” 2 Corinthians 12:9

    Are we “living epistles” or WHAT??!! (as Nick, who looks just like God’s twin to me, and others have previously commented.

  408. More information for future page potentate archives…..

    In regards to the question about why the abused do not report sooner . . .

    This from another informative article by Peter Hyatt who has been involved in thousands of child abuse cases.

    *************
    Sexual abuse is an attack against the body, but it is also an attack against the brain.

    Why do sexual abuse victims wait so long?

    We often find “he began to…” and “he started to…” in their language. Summits, the reliable first person singular, past tense reliable commitment can change to present tense verb, specifically at the attack. This is a possible signal of PTSD, that is, “post traumatic stress disorder” impact.

    1. Those victimized during development.
    2. Those victimized during early adolescence.
    3. Those victimized during adulthood.

    These are there different classifications of victims. The first can have the most lasting impact. Those sexually assaulted in childhood will often use the word “child” in relation to their own selves. There is a powerful element of silence in childhood sexual abuse victims. They cannot speak out, often due to threats, but sometimes due to fear of consequence; loving the abuser, not wanting the abuser to be in trouble.

    During the assault, hormonal rise is evident. Sometimes the brain will seek to protect itself with the imagination going off on a ‘safety tangent’, that is, the child is picturing something else happening while the assault is taking place. As the stress hormones are elevated, the brain “goes elsewhere”.

    Whenever the brain has elevated hormones, a powerful imprint will be left. (This is why pornography is so detrimental for developing children and adolescents).

    If the brain goes off into imagination to escape AND the hormones are significantly elevated, the “leaving” or “departing” of the brain becomes powerfully engraved in the brain, sometimes called “Dissociative Disorder” (in various ways). It becomes a ‘permanent portrait’ of the brain.
    The victim will suffer for the rest of her life.

    This is somewhat overly simplistic but picture it this way:

    The post-speech child is being sexually abused. The brain seeks escape and the child’s mind goes to the park.
    while “at the park”, the cortisol levels are through the roof, dangerously imprinting the brain “at the park.”

    In memory, later, where is the child?

    At the park?
    or, is she being abused?

    Later, she tries to describe this and sounds like a split personality or “two” people.

    The pre-speech victim may be the worst of all possibilities, as the child experiences the trauma of abuse (for people of faith, they believe we are created in the Image of God, making sexual assault against the “soul” or “image bearer” of Divinity), but does not have linguistic capability that is so necessary to “talk down” the trauma –this is what “debriefing” does in alleviating pressure on the brain).

    The pre-speech child may still “wander” off (Dissociative Identity Disorder, or “DID”) without linguistics.

    This adult, like the post speech victim, has a “need” to communicate what has happened, and may still feel the silencing or suppression in order to protect the abuser, or even to protect one’s own reputation.

    There is a violent war going on in the brain of the victim. It begins even before she can speak and it will impact her every day that she walks this earth. Even ‘healing’ is measured, and not complete. It will never be complete while on the earth. The suffering, in some form, will always be there, just as scars stay with the body, so they do with the brain.

    (Perhaps you might understand why, every so often when a child goes missing, I get on my soap box and write about parental responsibilities, especially when I read about a 5 year old out walking alone. You’ll have to indulge my soapbox in this regard, when a case like that opens up.)

    Statistics show that such victims of sexual abuse are:

    a. highly likely to go off into substance abuse
    b. suicidal, suicidal ideation
    c. depression and anxiety; feelings of worthlessness, without purpose or value
    d. promiscuity; giving of oneself to strangers; not recognizing where her body ends and his body begins; boundary issues, overt sexual behavior (sometimes frigidity, inability to trust, enjoy natural sexuality, etc)
    e. compromised immune system leaving way for a myriad of besetting illnesses and diseases
    f. strange verbal descriptions, sounding almost ‘schizophrenic’ (see “DID” above. This is vital for analysts)
    g. Unusual perception issues, including taste, smell, touch.
    h. Unexplained illnesses and medical phenomena: some victims have sensory issues where her right arm felt cold to the touch, while the left arm felt hot to the touch. A doctor placing her hand on the limbs could literally feel what is verbally described. A simple touch can, at times, feel like a knife invading the body, while the same touch, later, felt like a normal human touch.
    i. serial troubled relationships, inability to maintain stable relationships
    j. life of self sabotaging happiness and peace; professionally sabotaging career, finances, health, etc
    k. desire to destroy “home”, that is, the place where one should feel safe and protected (see “j”)

    Due to the added suffering of being silenced, the victim learns at an early age to not articulate what has happened. When the normal urge to talk is suppressed, damage can be done. Compounded over years, the brain seeks to ‘forget’ what happened, in order to stop the conflict caused by suppression (verbal expression releases tension). Eventually, the victim ‘forgets’ what happened.

    The body, however, does not forget, and we find victims “punishing” themselves, drinking or drugging themselves to death, or letting men sexually abuse them, which feels ‘normal’ to them, since it was imprinted upon them during the childhood assault.
    tatement-analysis.blogspot.com/2015/01/statement-and-behavioral-analysis-of.html
    *************
    Scientific evidence can have huge implications for the discussion concerning the extension of the statutes of limitations for abuse cases

  409. Two more informative articles explaining the effects of trauma on the brain.

    —–
    Altered States of Consciousness Resulting from Trauma and Environmental Factors and Brainwave States Associated with Childhood Growth and Development: Understanding Doctrine Over Person, Part VII

    http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2012/01/altered-states-of-consciousness.html

    ——–
    Post Traumatic Stress as a Physical Process and the Inadequacies of Some Types of Biblical Counseling: Understanding Doctrine Over Person, Part VIII
    http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2012/01/post-traumatic-stress-as-physical.html

    These are just two of a plethora of relevant offerings at this site.

  410. Peter Hyatt puts more succinctly the point I was trying to make upthread a bit.
    http://statement-analysis.blogspot.com/2015/12/rape-and-sexual-abuse-in-language.html

    *****WARNING******* Possibly triggering picture at the beginning of the article **********

    *********************
    For parents who have seen their child self destruct, or a husband who has witnesses his wife happy one day, but making blistering attempts at self harm, or the woman who concusses herself, or…

    it speaks not to ‘a cry for help’ but a concerted effort to punish self.

    The parent grieves and it is coupled with intense fear and guilt.

    The spouse does not know if tomorrow’s holiday will be joyful, or he will take his wife to the ER for x-rays.

    It is a life sentence imposed upon the victim and all who love her. These, too, suffer trauma through what they must cope with each and every day of their lives, also imposed upon them against their will.
    *******************
    Also — great comments about “silencing the victims.”

    Have this happen enough times, in lengthy periods of time, and this can lead to a type of disassociation that mimics having another personality. (This will be for another address)

    The language can appear deceptive but it is consistent in adult victims of childhood sexual abuse and the sample size is large. Another major signal that is almost universal, is the trigger of rage of not being heard, or believed. This is in communicative language. They all speak often of “hearing” or “speaking” in many ways. This is due to:

    a. frustration of being incapable of articulation
    b. The threat made by the perpetrator for silence
    c. The notion that if I speak, my loved one goes to jail and my family will disown me
    d. If I speak, I destroy others
    e. If I speak, people will lose their income, homes, etc.

    The list goes on and on and its one common denominator is this:

    The victim must be silent.

    This means that she not only has the brain injury of the abuse, but the very means of alleviating the suffering is forbidden to her.
    **********************
    Also a great section on

    A. Childhood Sexual Abuse Pre-Speech

    The childhood assault is so contrary to nature itself, that the child can disassociate while being molested. This is the passivity that is so closely related to acute damage: the brain remains in a hormone induced heighten state of emergency or crisis. The imprint, whether or not the words exist, is left.

    Those abused before speech have the same damage to the brain, but without the ability to “linguistically process” the trauma. The trauma to the brain can show itself at any time, including childhood illnesses that may be related to the depleted overused immune system.

    The child of whom sexual abuse has taken place pre speech has no words of which to communicate what is within them. In statement after statement, they all sound the same:

    Like crazy people trying to describe what cannot be described.
    ********************

  411. My apologies for blog-hoggedness. I got a bit ahead of the archive pages.

    I just got my fill of

    the attitude that reporting child sexual trauma is no big deal. You know — doesn’t really hurt the kids. They’ll get over it. Yeah, maybe I was supposed to report. Shrug.

    I say: Yeah? Well, READ THAT!!!! What I just posted. When you’ve finished, there’s MORE.

    Time to GET IT — Children SUFFER all life long.

  412. To all those here who are experiencing the horrible suffering of day to day financial woes, emotional trauma, and/or physical pain, I am saying a prayer for all of you that God may meet your needs and that you may feel a big hug from him today.

  413. Just a little update…I’ve been unemployed for almost a month now, with absolutely no progress. I mean, I get it. Who is going to hire an almost 59 year old woman? Thankfully, I’ve been approved for 13 weeks of unemployment benefits, at less than half of what I was earning. I have also decided to apply for disability. I won’t bore you with all of my maladies, except that I do have diabetes, which qualifies as a disability as it is classified as a fatal disease. I doubt very much I’ll be able to keep my apartment where I’ve lived for over 10 years. So, continued prayers are coveted. I recently had a psychological assessment and when I was asked “who is your support system?” there was a long pause, and I looked up and quietly said, “the internet”. Ugh.

  414. I read often, don’t comment much, but SHAUNA! I’m so excited you have found a job! That is just the BEST news!

  415. Former CLCer wrote:

    To all those here who are experiencing the horrible suffering of day to day financial woes, emotional trauma, and/or physical pain, I am saying a prayer for all of you that God may meet your needs and that you may feel a big hug from him today.

    I almost cried. That was exactly what was on my mind when I came here. And I’ve been offering up prayers myself for anyone involved in the things reported here recently. I can’t imagine the trauma some of these situations have created.

  416. In that vein, due to the past few jobs I’ve had being extremely stressful, I am looking for a job, and I’m feeling very anxious about it all. I seriously nearly had a panic attack just looking at job listings today. I still work now, but I don’t make enough to pay all my bills anymore.

    I am thinking about finishing my master’s degree online in a seminary or college that is not Southern Baptist, and I was wondering if anyone had any good suggestions for schools? I want a Master of Arts. I’m 4 hours short of SEBTS’ MA in Intercultural Studies, and would love the same program, but am open to MA degrees in Christian Ministry, Children’s Ministry, or Communications.

  417. A suggestion. Should we write an article to encourage Joshua Harris on for his apologies about his book “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”? I think he is pretty clear that he is very sorry on his teachings on “courting” or the “heart purity” movement. He is also very sorry for his involvement in the decision to internally handle child sexual abuses instead of contacting the police immediately. I think it is fair to say that he has repented publicly.

    Now I am not saying his apologies are enough. I know some people would want a guy like him to bow face down on the ground to apologize. That some people would want his reputation go to zero and never be allowed to preach again. But as Christians, even if we are directly the victims, it will be crazy to ask this from him. I think we should draw a line and accept and welcome his apologies.

    At some point we must forgive our brother just as Christ forgave us. If even Saul, the Christian murdering Pharisee, can eventually teach and lead the church so then can a brother like Joshua Harris.

    What do you guys think? =)

    Links:

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/abstinence-author-pastor-joshua-harris-apologizes-for-telling-christians-not-to-date-in-i-kissed-dating-goodbye-168650/page2.html

    “I’m just beginning the process of revisiting the message and impact of my book I Kissed Dating Goodbye. Over the years I’ve heard from people who have been helped by the book, but I’ve also heard a growing number of voices of people who have been hurt by it. I want to understand this better. I’m starting by listening,” he said, before inviting people to share their stories.

    “I want to do more than just say, ‘Oh, I should have said a few things differently,'” he told Graham. “I just need to listen to where people are before I come out with my own thoughts. … I don’t have all the answers yet.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/long-an-outsider-popular-evangelical-pastor-heads-for-the-mainstream/2015/01/30/31827364-a881-11e4-a7c2-03d37af98440_story.html

    “In an interview, Harris said the isolation of Covenant Life, and of a small cluster of churches of which it was a part, may have fed leadership mistakes, including the decision of pastors — himself among them — to handle a child sexual abuse case internally instead of going to police.”

  418. ishy wrote:

    In that vein, due to the past few jobs I’ve had being extremely stressful, I am looking for a job, and I’m feeling very anxious about it all. I seriously nearly had a panic attack just looking at job listings today. I still work now, but I don’t make enough to pay all my bills anymore.
    I am thinking about finishing my master’s degree online in a seminary or college that is not Southern Baptist, and I was wondering if anyone had any good suggestions for schools? I want a Master of Arts. I’m 4 hours short of SEBTS’ MA in Intercultural Studies, and would love the same program, but am open to MA degrees in Christian Ministry, Children’s Ministry, or Communications.

    Check out Northern Seminary.

  419. OnlyEleven wrote:

    Just a little update…I’ve been unemployed for almost a month now, with absolutely no progress. I mean, I get it. Who is going to hire an almost 59 year old woman? Thankfully, I’ve been approved for 13 weeks of unemployment benefits, at less than half of what I was earning. I have also decided to apply for disability. I won’t bore you with all of my maladies, except that I do have diabetes, which qualifies as a disability as it is classified as a fatal disease. I doubt very much I’ll be able to keep my apartment where I’ve lived for over 10 years. So, continued prayers are coveted. I recently had a psychological assessment and when I was asked “who is your support system?” there was a long pause, and I looked up and quietly said, “the internet”. Ugh.

    I will pray for you about your health and finances.

    Debtors Anonymous is a free support group that deals with debt, underearning, financial pressures/stresses. They have telephone meetings besides in person meetings near major cities and suburbs.

    http://debtorsanonymous.org/getting_started/index.php/find/phone_meeting

    They also have meetings focused on health issues. And some telephone meetings on mental health issues.

    You might want to check it out.

  420. From reading here, we surely all have our own pain and our own journeys. I myself am struggling once more. I had a difficult day at work – I got observed teaching a lesson the first time by my supervisor, then had a crazy meeting, some of it due to my own miscommunication, and then a lot of email questions from my boss. I think I have PTSD from a previously very difficult job situation, and it causes me to doubt myself the minute a minutely negative comment is made. I am going to pursue counseling – a decision I made tonight after this crazy day! Meanwhile, I am leaving town quite early tomorrow a.m. to attend my Dad’s services, and I really want to have peace about work in the midst of the sadness.

  421. Former CLCer wrote:

    Meanwhile, I am leaving town quite early tomorrow a.m. to attend my Dad’s services, and I really want to have peace about work in the midst of the sadness.

    Praying for you as you face your Dad’s death.

    Good for you about getting counseling.

  422. CHIPS wrote:

    A suggestion. Should we write an article to encourage Joshua Harris on for his apologies about his book “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”? I think he is pretty clear that he is very sorry on his teachings on “courting” or the “heart purity” movement. He is also very sorry for his involvement in the decision to internally handle child sexual abuses instead of contacting the police immediately. I think it is fair to say that he has repented publicly.

    This is an interesting one, CHIPS, and I’d support it too.

    For one thing, the whole idea of forgiveness is under attack – it probably always has been, TBH. What I mean is, each time a high-profile pastor or church organisation:
     demands cheap forgiveness
     for themselves or an abuser whose cause they’ve taken up
     at a victim’s expense
     following a lazy and unrepentant non-apology
     over a gross act of abuse,

    … it brings forgiveness itself into disrepute. Whereas in fact, forgiveness is a powerful armament given, by God, to the victims of wrongdoing</strong, to set them free and break the power of their abusers over them. Jesus commands me to forgive, and this is not because he is an arrogant and callous ****-head, and it is not because he condones abuse and stands in agreement against me with those who robbed me.

    For another, the Frankenstein’s Monster that IKDG became (heck, it’s even an acronym now!) is not wholly the fault of Mr Harris either. The early church did not settle matters of doctrine on any one person’s say-so, much less would they elevate such a young man to be the poster-boy of a far-reaching doctrinal ruling. Those who touted and promoted his book and, in particular, those who allowed him to write it in the first place, must all bear some responsibility. Consider this quote from the The Washington Post article:

    There has been a move from what’s been a historically unhealthy and insular Christian movement to kind of engaging in a broader evangelical world with some more healthy preparation. Josh said he did these things in reverse, and I think he’s right… You have this explosion of nondenominational movements, and the question is: How do we educate ourselves? How do we evangelize? Some are answering well, some badly. Josh just announced to the world what he thinks the answer should be.

    This was Ed Stetzer. And I look at that last sentence – Josh just announced to the world what he thinks the answer should be – and think, what a stupid thing to say. Has Stetzer learned absolutely nothing from the whole IKDG affair? Harris has not announced any such thing. He’s not even claimed to have arrived at an answer for himself yet!

    So I agree: we need to provide the likes of Josh Harris with better mentors and peers than some of the ones he’s had in the past.

  423. @ OnlyEleven:
    I’m two years into unemployment and I feel your pain (literally). I am trying to get into Pharmacy school and working part time at Walgreens. I’m trying to sell my house, but for my big plan to work, I need the IRS to file their lien. So today is your big joke: You know one person who is complaining that the IRS is too slow in carrying out their threats.

  424. Content-free post coming up: please ignore. (This might be a way of structuring slightly longer comments, is all.)

    testing
    testing

    Testing
    Testing

    (But it probably won’t work.)

  425. In other news:
    Scientists are baffled by the hexagonal shape of what is believed to be an atmospheric layer directly over one of Saturn’s rotational poles.
    Hexagonal shapes are common in nature. Honeycomb cells made by bees, the patterns of a turtle’s carapace, basalt columns in Ireland etc.
    But nothing on as large a scale as that seen over Saturn’s pole.

  426. During the haze and daze of my immediate post-church abuse days, I signed up for a temp agency that was listed in a Christian Business Directory. Everything was a plus with them.

    A few times, the companies even offered to hire me to fill the vacancy for which I had been temping.

  427. Tutoring?

    — Personal tutoring from home or a public meeting place (park, library?). Talk to administrators about who you are, what your offer, what the student needs are. Maybe volunteer at a local school so staff, students and parents get to know you. Find out the going rates for personal tutors in your area.

    Find out about current school tutoring programs which might hire you.

    — Tutoring through an agency in your locale.

    — Colleges often hire tutors from among their students. They might hire from the general population as well.

  428. Status today
    I have food and gas for the next week.
    All but one of November bills are paid. That one is still only partially paid and the balance needed to bring it current (with late fees) is $220. Of course, rent will be coming due again in a little over a week ($565).
    The health issues are still the same.
    Again, thank you so much and Happy Thanksgiving!

    http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

  429. Let me take this time here to offer those of us who live in the US, a very happy and blessed Thanksgiving. We will be going to my cousin’s house, about 2 hrs away to eat and visit with friends and family. My 18 yr old grandson is coming to stay with us on Wednesday of this week till Saturday (just found this out yesterday). My son, is coming down after he goes to my cousins house for Thanksgiving with us. I am going to start my baking today, with the help of my husband. I have much to be Thankful for this year. It has been a hard year physically, but I am still alive. God has blessed us in many ways. To each of you out there, thank you for the prayers you have sent my way. I have learned so much from this blog. Let us keep plugging away at all those who would cause problems to God’s children. To those that make the Gospel of Christ, something that it shouldn’t be. Let us keep praying for the victims we have heard about here. Let God give them a peace beyond all understanding in their hearts for what they have been thru.

  430. Unfortunately, due to a misspent youth, I do not have a college degree. I went to Bible College for the one year certificate (very conservation, some Gothard influence). I left that school to sow my wild oats.

    I’ve always been pretty above average as far as spelling, grammar, and punctuation. I’ve also developed a pretty impressive medical vocabulary working for medical lawyers the last 13 1/2 years. I’ve spent the last 30 years in office environments learning about all thing office and Microsoft Office. I am decent at correspondence and transcription and very detail oriented in those tasks. I took 5 years of Spanish in junior high and high school and receive all A’s. Of my regrets, one of my top five is not pursuing at least a minor in Spanish.

    I have some physical limitations that make me less than energetic, so I need something pretty sedentary. I a chronic disease that is expected to last over year and end in death — don’t fret, I haven’t received a dire prognosis yet by any means) so I have also applied for disability.

    **warning** **tangent**. I do not understand this about disability: It’s TOTAL dependency on the government or none at all. Why can’t I work to the best of my ability at a part-time job so that my health is not compromised, and supplement me by medical benefits and some help with food. It shouldn’t mean total dependency.

    I have been depressed for all of my adult life, been in and out of therapy, different meds, etc. The depression has been pretty intense since my husband’s affair quickly followed by his death of cancer-of-the-everything. My free-for-a-year grief counselor suggested further treatment because I was displaying some features of mental illness that were beyond her purview, which I tried, but I had a horrible experience that pretty much made me lose the last shred of trust in The System. Obviously, THIS is not something one puts on a resume 🙂 but one may share with people who are praying for her. 🙂

    Thank you all so much for your prayers, and your suggestions, and I will follow through and let you know of any positive results.

    If the above gives you insight that would alter your suggestions, please let me know!

  431. ACK! I have failed my first test at a new job! I did not proofread before I hit send!

    NO JOB FOR MEEEEEEE!

  432. Harley wrote:

    Let us keep praying for the victims we have heard about here. Let God give them a peace beyond all understanding in their hearts for what they have been thru.

    Amen.

    A good holiday to you and your family, Harley. God Bless you and keep you safe. Sending hug.

  433. Muff Potter wrote:

    In other news:
    Scientists are baffled by the hexagonal shape of what is believed to be an atmospheric layer directly over one of Saturn’s rotational poles.
    Hexagonal shapes are common in nature. Honeycomb cells made by bees, the patterns of a turtle’s carapace, basalt columns in Ireland etc.
    But nothing on as large a scale as that seen over Saturn’s pole.

    Way cool!

  434. VOnlyEleven wrote:

    **warning** **tangent**. I do not understand this about disability: It’s TOTAL dependency on the government or none at all. Why can’t I work to the best of my ability at a part-time job so that my health is not compromised, and supplement me by medical benefits and some help with food. It sh

    If you get disability and then get a job, part time or otherwise, report and document everything with a rep at the SS office. If you find a job, meet with an SS rep before you begin the job. The gov. will eat you alive if they find out you have a job and did not report your income to SS.
    I have had a stroke and I have been diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. I used to teach 7-12 math. I have also worke at factories and unloaded trucks at Walmart. I can no longer do any of that, so I am on partial disability. I want to work, but I haven’t been able to find a job that I can do steadily that would make it worth the disability cut and the gas money (rural area). That being said, I have a a lot of little chats with SS reps about the legalities of disability. Make sure you go over everything, including future possibilities, with an SS rep – write down all of your questions before the next meeting. You may already know all of that, but I just want to make sure.

  435. Status today
    I have food and gas through the week.
    There is still one November bill that is only partially paid and the balance needed to bring it current (with late fees) is $220. Of course, rent will be coming due again in a week ($565).
    It was a rough weekend, physically. Back and stomach issues and a lot of pain. Doing better today and able to eat.
    Thanks for all your prayers and assistance and I hope you all have a wonderful holiday.

    http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

  436. “Whereas in fact, forgiveness is a powerful armament given, by God, to the victims of wrongdoing</strong, to set them free and break the power of their abusers over them."

    Well said.
    ***************

    For myself . . .

    I made a decision to forgive. Forgiveness frees me from the abusive controls in my life.

    I continually asked God to help me, though, with the waves of anger and billows of bitterness threatening to engulf me and swoosh me right off of the ROCK. He already knows all my feelings, so no sense denying the inner tempest.

    I did NOT want anger and bitterness, like acid to the soul, to become my new status quo in
    life.

    For me, replacing the storm with Christ's peace is/was a process.

    I marvel at how Jesus forgave the people responsible for His crucifixion. Truly, from His heart. His forgiveness did not instantly heal the wounds they had inflicted upon Him, though.

    Sin damages 100% of the people, 100% of the time, 100% non-discriminatory.

  437. At Only Eleven ~ ~

    Sounds to me like you have plenty of skills to tutor elementary through high school students. Accuracy in language skills is a given in an office environment. The great thing about tutoring is that you can work from your strengths. You teach students, adults or minors, what you already know that they don’t.

    As far as I know, Tech skills are invaluable everywhere in the marketplace.

    A great need today is just to READ with students. Listen to them read, interact with the content, highlight the vocabulary. Read to them, read with them. Practice is a huge chunk of learning which a lot of kids do not get in the home.

    I don’t know how the “getting paid to speak English” works, but an agency probably pairs you with someone who would benefit from practicing with you.

    A tutorial agency will give you materials and training.

    What I liked about the temp agency was that they evaluate your marketable skills in detail. That way, you find out about qualifications you never knew you had, and places you could work that you never thought of before.

    Also — in home medical support — for basically fixing a meal, light clean-up, maybe running a few errands, and just hanging out with the person. Caregivers need a break and can’t leave their loved one alone. Might help out while looking for something more permanent.

    Just my thoughts fwiw . . .

  438. I’ve been going to physical therapy for the past 2 weeks for my shoulder injury. On Monday of this week, my shoulder was 3/4 of the way dislocated. My therapist had to work for about