"The Gospel Project® is a chronological, Christ-centered Bible study for Kids, Students, and Adults that examines how all Scripture gives testimony to Jesus Christ. Over the course of three years, participants will journey from Genesis to Revelation and discover how God’s plan of redemption unfolds throughout Scripture and still today, compelling them to join the mission of God."
Have you heard of The Gospel Project®? If you are Southern Baptist, chances are your church has been strongly encouraged to try it for a month for FREE. 🙂
What's the catch? Hang on…
Let's take a chronological look at this 'chronological' Bible study. In an SBC Voices interview published on February 8, 2012, Trevin Wax, Managing Editor for The Gospel Project®, provided the following information when asked about the beginning of this Bible study. (see screen shot below)
On July 6, 2012, the Christian Post interviewed Ed Stetzer, vice president of Research and Ministry Development for LifeWay Christian Resources and Managing Editor for The Gospel Project®. Their initial question for Stetzer was: "What's the purpose of The Gospel Project?" He responded as follows:
We created The Gospel Project because churches had a desire to go deeper, not just for the knowledge, for the transformation. So we're providing a resource that takes people deeper into Scripture so they know the big story of what God had done in Christ and the transformation flows out of that experience of new life and the knowledge of the Good News of Christ. So our ultimate goal is to get people to live lives on mission. It's kind of like a unique combination of depth projecting itself out onto mission.
What surprised me the most in this article was Stetzer's concluding remark (see below):
It's intended for and used by all different denominations. The majority of people who've signed up now are from all different types of denominations. It's not just something for churches of one denomination. It's for evangelical believers who want to go deep and live faith.
How interesting that "all different types of denominations" are using this LifeWay Bible study, not exclusively Southern Baptists…
Then on July 31, 2012, Stetzer wrote a Christianity Today article entitled "The Gospel Project Blows Up". In it, he stated:
Needless to say, we are thrilled that so many have decided to use the curriculum. I was just looking at the list of churches using it and it is amazing. We are glad to see that lots of different denominations are using the curriculum: Evangelical Free, Baptist, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, non-denominational, and Lutherans (one Lutheran church using thousands of the student guides). The biggest user is a part of the Restoration movement! But, what is encouraging is that there are churches of all sizes and places, different denominations, and ministry styles.
How strange that so many Christians outside the Southern Baptist denomination were among the first to sign up for this Bible study. How did they find out about it?
Ed Stetzer wrote a follow-up article for Christianity Today (8/22/12) entitled The Gospel Project: More Milestones & Encouragement, and You Can Still Be a Part! which begins as follows:
Thom Rainer, president of LifeWay, shared at length today in chapel about the surprising success of The Gospel Project. Needless to say, we all were encouraged– this kind of engagement in small group curriculum is quite amazing. In 2012, TGP will have more than 300,000 users as part of 40,000 different groups. Yes, 40,000 groups at the introduction of a new curriculum line.
The Gospel Project® launched shortly thereafter. If you were reading over at SBC Voices around that time, you would have seen a post with a perplexing title — Why I'm Sending Back The Gospel Project.
If the Bible study was so great, why would anyone send it back? Upon further reading, it became clear that Mke Leake's post was dripping with sarcasm. (see screen shot below)
Obviously, there's more going on here than just the publication of a new LifeWay Bible study, so I did some digging. Turns out that the Advisory Council for The Gospel Project® is made up of ALL Calvinists! (see screen shot below)
Over four years ago, Gerald Harris, editor of The Christian Index (a newsjournal of the Georgia Baptist Convention), wrote a column entitled "The Calvinists are here". The Baptist Press then wrote an article entitled 'Encroachment of Calvinism' concerns editor. That was on February 10, 2012. Here is an excerpt from the Baptist Press article:
"… It appears that some of our institutions and agencies are giving, at the least, tacit approval to Reformed theology or are, at the most, actively on a path to honor, if not implement Reformed theology and methodology in their institutions," Harris wrote at ChristianIndex.org.
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., was cited in the column as "a particular source" of recent graduates espousing Reformed doctrines.
"There is a growing perception that Southern Seminary has become a seedbed for a brand of Calvinism that is quite different from the Reformed theology of its founder, James Petigru Boyce, and also a training ground for Reformed church planters," Harris wrote.
In response, R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of Southern Seminary, told Baptist Press, "I have no idea what Dr. Harris has in mind with this comment, and only he can explain it. The theological standard at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary is the Baptist Faith & Message and the Abstract of Principles, upon which the institution was founded, and on which the first signature is that of James Petigru Boyce."
The North American Mission Board was included as an example of Calvinistic infiltration because a recent issue of its On Mission magazine highlights several church planters, "two of whom could be seen as Reformed in their theology."
Harris also pointed to NAMB's decision to include St. Louis as one of its focus cities in the Send North America church planting initiative.
"In St. Louis NAMB will encounter a Baptist association that has already launched 15 church plants, seven of which are listed as Acts 29 Network churches," Harris wrote, characterizing Acts 29 as "admittedly evangelical, missional and Reformed in its approach to church planting."
Remember, this article was published over four years ago… Where are Southern Baptists gathering in two weeks (for their annual meeting)? Meet me in St. Louis…
The Baptist Press article also included Trevin Wax's response to Gerald Harris' claim (see below).
Trevin Wax, managing editor of The Gospel Project at LifeWay, told SBC Voices eight of the 11 advisory council members are Southern Baptist, and LifeWay did not ask them if they were Calvinists. [emphasis mine] The members were asked about the Baptist Faith and Message 2000, and "the conversations were about how we could structure this curriculum in a way that points to Christ, not Calvinism," Wax said.
Can there be any doubt that Trevin Wax made Al Mohler proud with his crafty response?
And here's another response by Wax that must have made Mohler proud. (see screen shot below)
This Q&A comes from the very first article to which we linked.
If you're interested in the Contributors to The Gospel Project®, they are listed here. Some of the names will be very familiar to our regular readers.
So how did so many other denominations know about The Gospel Project®? If you've spent any time at all over at The Gospel Coalition website, you have no doubt seen the continual promotion of The Gospel Project® (which we assume pays for the advertisement). Here is a screen shot of the current ad on TGC's website.
Recently, Trevin Wax provided an update on The Gospel Coalition website, which included the following: (see screen shot)
It's obvious whom Wax views as his support team — The Gospel Coalition crowd (which knew about the Bible study long before most Southern Baptists did).
The Gospel Project® has been revised and re-released. It appears it is now being pushed in Southern Baptist churches. Here's what happened in one of those churches.
The pastor expressed a strong desire for everyone in the congregation from children to adults to give The Gospel Project® a try. As the promotional material readily shows, the first set of Bible studies (which includes Units 1 and 2) are free. The suggested week to begin Unit 1: God the Creator was September 6, 2015. Then in December, the church began paying for the curriculum (just as it would for any other LifeWay materials).
Nearly all of the Sunday School classes are using The Gospel Project®. They have now completed Volumes 1-3, and Volume 4 will begin on June 5th. Is it merely coincidental that one of the two contributors who wrote the upcoming lessons for June 2016 (when the SBC Annual Meeting is taking place) is none other than a presidential nominee for the Southern Baptist Convention – namely J.D. Greear? He, along with his church-planting sidekick, prepared the lesson on "A Kingdom Established".
This timing was neither coincidental nor providential. It was purely strategic. Greear is clearly Al Mohler's choice for SBC president since he is being nominated by one of Mohler's lieutenants, Jimmy Scroggins. You may recall that several years ago Greear served on the committee that pushed for the re-naming of the SBC to "Great Commission Baptists".
Now that The Gospel Project® is being used far and wide (see screen shot below), maybe some of the messengers who will be voting in two weeks will see Greear's name in their Sunday School lesson and cast their vote for him… No doubt that's what The Gospel Project® crowd is hoping. If there were ever a scheming group of Christians, it would be the Neo-Cals who have stealthily trying to take over the Southern Baptist Convention. Mohler has been successful in gaining control of the NAMB (via his former pastor Kevin Ezzell) and the IMB (led by his disciple David Platt). And now the presidency is nearly in his grasp…
Just in case you're curious about the latest and greatest LifeWay Bible study, here is Trevin Wax with his introduction to The Gospel Project®.
Finally, here is the link to an open letter to Drs. Thom Ranier and Ed Stetzer and the LifeWay Trustees from by a Southern Baptist pastor in Florida. It was written back in 2012 when The Gospel Project® was being launched. Here is a significant portion of that letter.
I do have serious concerns with Lifeway’s labeling this project simply as “the Gospel Project” with no reference to its theologically leaning perspective. The administration of Lifeway knows full well that Baptist churches have looked to Lifeway for decades for theologically pertinent literature for their members. Many churches will see the promotional information on the “Gospel Project” that is new and exciting and Lifeway knows churches will purchase the literature. There is absolutely no doubt that this project will have a Calvinistic leaning perspective; otherwise there would be no reason to choose such a tightly knitted theological group.
Here comes the anticipated two-fold defense. “This is not a theologically biased project.” That argument is an argument from naivety, ignorance, or intentional cover-up. To attempt to even make this kind of argument, in my opinion, a brazen insult to this group of writers who were carefully selected for this project. No one should expect them to set aside their strong theological persuasion to produce a project of this magnitude and not be biased in their understanding of the synonymous position that the “true gospel” is Calvinism. It was their own admission and original purpose to make this project “Christ-centered, mission-driven, shaped around the narrative of God’s redemptive plan.” For this select group of writers that plan is best set forth in the Doctrines of Grace and Calvinism.
The second anticipated response is, “There is no hidden agenda on Lifeway’s part to put this project into churches to help ‘reform them’.” Great. Label the project’s title as “A Reformed Perspective” and all will be kosher. This is a simple request. Anything less, will shed serious doubt on Lifeway’s intentions and its ongoing ability to provide theologically pertinent literature to the mainstream Southern Baptist church. This potential problem MUST be avoided. According to Dr. Stetzer’s 2006 research 90% of SBC churches are not Reformed in their theology and as such, I suggest that they are not very likely to be looking for literature to move them in that direction any time soon.
Of course the editors and contributors of The Gospel Project® planned from the beginning to write the lessons in such a way as not to reveal their true theological leanings. This group of Neo-Cals are much too savvy to do that.
Dee and I have been observing the Neo-Cals in action for over eight years now. Once they have all the power, look out! The matters we discuss in this forum – membership covenants, discipline, 9Marx, etc. – will become the modus operandi for many Southern Baptist churches, and we predict that such a trend will cause the denomination to shrink at a faster rate than before.
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And they may think a shrinking denomination is good or will find a way to make it all look good.
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If the Gospel Project is examined, will we find:
A. That God did not need to save the world or reveal Himself to it, but deigned to do so ‘for His glory’
OR, will we find:
B. That God ‘SO LOVED THE WORLD’, and that was the reason He reached out to redeem it
I think when the materials are examined, it shouldn’t be too difficult to figure out which ‘viewpoint’ is stressed: especially in the works written for the children’s Christian formation.
What image of the character of ‘God’ is given to the children? Is it an image that is in alignment with what we know of God from Our Lord Himself?
That is what will be most telling concerning the Project’s ‘slant’.
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Deb writes “Of course the editors and contributors of The Gospel Project® planned from the beginning to write the lessons in such a way as not to reveal their true theological leanings. This group of Neo-Cals are much too savvy to do that.”
Well, I don’t know about that. If the lessons DON’T reflect calvinist bias, they surely won’t have much effect in moving people toward a reformed, 5pt, decretal, deterministic, understanding of the scriptures. One would have to be quite inexperienced doctrinally to not notice when they are being taught ideas that are in direct conflict with what is regularly taught in Southern Baptist work.
On the other hand, I’m sure those newly minted young calvinist pastors from SBTS will certainly want to use this material in the poor, unsuspecting normal SB churches they are intent upon transforming into bastions of “5-pointedness” in what they see as the “great Arminian wasteland”!
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Unit 21, Session One, Jesus Meets Nicodemus, John 3:1-21 should give us a little insight as to how passages may or may not be given the calvinist reinterpretation.
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Here is some calvinist slant.
UNIT 4: GOD THE
REDEEMER
Big Picture Question: What is God’s
plan? God’s plan is to rescue His people
from captivity.
1: God rescued Moses to deliver His
people from captivity.
2: God proved to the Egyptians that He is
the one true God.
3: God provided for the physical needs of
His people.
4: God punished His people for
worshiping a golden calf.
5: God gave us rules to show that He is
holy and we are sinners.
“Rescuing HIS people” is calvinist-speak for “particular redemption” or “limited atonement” if you prefer.
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Here’s something from their twitter stream that is definitely calvinist-speak:
The Gospel Project @Gospel_Project Apr 23
God’s anger over idolatry should not surprise us. It is the natural outworking of His exclusive love for His people.
“Exclusive” being the operative word.
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So….until this “new curriculum” nobody had ever connected the dots in Scripture?
I don’t get this constant drive to come up with something new, something else that is marketed as THE thing that will help people “grasp” the gospel.
What’s wrong with the Bible? And the various bible studies and commentaries we have now?
Methinks this whole paradigm is simply a way to keep making money and keep a whole bunch of professional clergy occupied and paid. All these new curricula and dor connectors aren’t going to bring any new revelation, are they? What’s wrong with the revelation we have now?
Sounds to me like the whole Purpose Driven thing with the 40 Days of….nonsense.
Gospel project, Gospel coalition, Gospel this, Gospel that. I’m sick of hearing another appellation stuck onto the word Gospel and cheapening its meaning.
I haven’t heard of this show up here in town yet but who knows? I hope it hasn’t.
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I’m no Calvinist and share WW’s concern for calvinista hijinks; however, I reviewed TGP materials back when it came out and didn’t see anything objectionable. If a steady diet of Calvinistic teaching has been published since, I’m confident some of the many SBC anti-Calvinist watchdogs would have outed it.
Curricula and authors must be in accord with the Baptist Faith and Message Statement, and no other. TGP is the most scrutinized SBC curriculum in history.
The slam on NAMB is weak and dated. NAMB had a couple of churches that were in the A29 network. These SBC churches and pastors had to affirm the BFM.
Greear is indeed one of the presidential candidates this year. He has been one of the most visible SBC pastors of the past decade or so and whatever timing his TGP lessons would hardly raise his profile. His church has about 150 people serving with IMB/SBC, more than any other single SBC church which speaks to his theology and vision, I suppose.
This non-Calvinist is familiar with TGP and knows enough to keep an eye on those materials along with any other LifeWay or other publisher’s stuff but I’m not seeing the grand Calvinist stealth conspiracy here.
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Ron Oommen wrote:
Totally agree, Ron–somehow the simplicity and purity of the gospel gets lost in all this.
The other striking thing to me is the covert insertion of what would typically not be a traditional Baptist view. When my last church went to a more authoritarian leadership paradigm, a significant portion of the church was somewhat flummoxed–they sensed something was wrong, was different, but could not identify it, at least in the beginning. The new leadership kept saying nothing had changed–but it had. By the time we could identify the change it was too late for honest dialogue.
It is dishonest to fail to disclose the framework of what one is doing. Period.
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Gospel Project Curriculum advisory board (11 members)
5 are currect/former Councilmembers and staff of calvinist fraternity TheGospelCoalition:
D.A. Carson
James MacDonald
Juan Sanchez
Collin Hansen
Danny Akin
4 are from the Acts29 organization:
Matt Chandler
J.D. Greear
Eric Mason
Joe Thorn
Kimberly Thornbury is wife of former CCR(9Marks)’Fellow’ Greg Thornbury:
https://web.archive.org/web/20010411184327/http://ccr.bigstep.com/employeebios.jhtml
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Ron Oommen wrote:
They might not have connected the deterministic filter dots and GP will lead them that way from cradle to grave.
I have only seen the first version for teens but it had nothing but Calvinist quotes and all about Gods glory. There was a lot of pushback on GP from non Cal pastors that shocked me. Normally there isn’t. After that, the Trevin Wax types claimed they would put in some non Cal quotes. Wasn’t that sweet?
I am blown away at the use of OPM in this blatant manner. Dave Miller, of SBCVoices was flown in for a Gospel Project wine and dine for media people and bloggers. He was a huge disciple of GP and any pushback on voices and you were labeled as a hater.
Seriously, just one example….James MacDonald! Write an article that congregational polity is from Satan. The man is responsible for Harvests elephant debt (see the site) and is known for his high stakes gambling. Now, after GP, MacDonald is SBC!
From Driscoll, Mahaney, MacDonald….and these SBC Neo Cals expect decent people to take them seriously? They are deceivers who use people. I feel as if I need a shower after reading anything from them.
Trust me, Trevin had no problem leaving church work for a media saturated 6 figure position at LifeWay. He is a little boy who was groomed to carry their water.
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@ William Thornton:
You went to the dark side a few years ago. Now your job seems to be to visit blogs that discuss this stuff and say; nothing to see here. Old news. Outdated. weak.
I am surprised you did not say the Deebs should have called Setzer or Wax first. That is usually your mantra on other blogs. And it is the party line.
As if they are all men of Integrity. Right.
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@ William Thornton:
Note the focus on the BFM. There is a clever reason for that. Mohler was instrumental on some clever and deceptive footwork on that committee from 2000. A few were on to him but they are long gone. Had there been a booming social media, his deception might not have worked as well as the one they pulled on church discipline as cleaning up Church rolls.
Now it is all BFM. Not scripture.
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William Thornton wrote:
The problem is no one can get real figures on Acts29/SBC, including financial and you know it. You just repeat whatever the Ezell boys tell you. Then you repeat on blogs and say, call him yourself. Right.
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Two things:
The more I read TWW the closer I personally come to the catholic theological positions on almost everything. I frankly had no idea that some of the opinions expressed by some commenters even were out there in SBC land. Having spent more than half a century as a non-calvinist baptist and then having left that tradition some time ago I had no idea about some of the aspects of neo-calvinism that you all talk about.
The free will issue is more complicated that what religion wants to talk about. If one reads some of what is being said by some of the psych and neuroscience people there is the possibility (probability) that there is no such thing as free will; we may be deceived by our own mental processes in this area. And some of them think that they have some images of brain function to back up that thinking. Some are saying that we have no free will but that we may, at most, have some degree of more or less free won’t. If that is true, then the theology of will, free or otherwise, should be interesting to watch develop.
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Wow, LYDIA, you must be the same Lydia I used to comment with over at SBCvoices and Wade’s blog years ago. You know where all the bodies are buried. Keep up the good work.
I got banned by David Miller over at SBCvoices, but Debbie K. is still there speaking out against the dark side.
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Christiane wrote:
Yes she does. 🙂 Lydia is definitely an asset to TWW.
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@ William Thornton:
My you were quick to chime in! 😉
Interesting post you did last week on the candidates for SBC president. Why such a short commentary on your obvious choice for the presidency – J.D. Greear?
This election doesn't need to be about Calvinism…and I hope it isn't.
Regarding Greear, you wrote:
On the contrary, J.D. does mentions Calvinism from time to time in his messages.
Sounds like you have changed your position on Calvinism since you wrote this back in 2011 – Why I'm a bit wary of Calvinists.
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@ okrapod:
Speaking of Catholicism, don't you find it interesting that the Calvinista leaders who masterminded The Gospel Project® want everyone from the youngest to the oldest in ALL churches (not just those that are Southern Baptist) to be studying the very same lesson at the very same time (per the schedule in the front of each lesson book)?
Where is the autonomy that Southern Baptists have always boasted about?
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Deb wrote:
Exactly.
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Alan House wrote:
Ugh. We have rules to show us we are sinners? That’s why?
I’m so glad I’m out of the SBC, but I’m sad for it too.
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Ron Oommen wrote:
They don’t make any money from stuff that already exists! Same reason we have to find new ways of teaching all sorts of subjects.
Cui Bono?
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@ Christiane:
Why capitalize my name? I have never understood that. From what I have read over the years, Debbie is in agreement with most of what comes from SBCvoices and that movement. Are we talking about the same Debbie?
I am sure there are plenty of bodies I know nothing about. :o)
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@ okrapod:
Could this mean normal functioning adults cannot make choices and be responsible for them? These developments could be more of a disaster for our justice system.
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This is how you indoctrinate people. Children are highly susceptible. Our former church used children's sunday school material from Piper's church. I don't think they ever heard that God loved them without hearing about what sinners they were, and this before they even knew what sin was. Is it good for a young child to be told that their sin is what nailed Jesus to cross? I think of some of the songs we sang in worship as well. Children's brains are not ready for the "theology" that these men think should be taught to them.
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It seems that all Lifeway does these days is sow the seeds of Calvinism in everything one way or another. My Methodist church had a lady who decided to teach Seamless and it sounded to me that there was a slight, subtle bent toward Calvinism if you knew what to listen for. I think for the most part, they’re content with that – knowing that if they bide their time, if their materials are popular then the church might invest in something blatantly Calvanistic and since they’ve gotten the seeds planted, then they will bear fruit.
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“Have you heard of The Gospel Project®? If you are Southern Baptist, chances are your church has been strongly encouraged to try it for a month for FREE.”
Reminds me of the approach drug dealers use to hook teenagers on the street corner after school. “FREE” always has a price tag on it. The “Gospel” Project is really The “Calvinism” Project in gradual doses.
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I have not read the entire Gospel Project.
I have attended Sunday School for 3 or 4 sessions where the Gospel Project was used. We change Sunday Schools 3 times a year, and they are topically based. I have not been in the class using the Gospel Project for the last 2 sessions.
But when I was reading the Gospel Project, I did not detect Calvinism. Not even remotely.
The renewed emphasis in some aspects of reformed soteriology is a broader movement than the personalities in the SBC.
And I note that Thom Rainer is not a 5 point Calvinist, and certainly does not believe in limited atonement.
I think that what we are seeing is natural, and not conspiratorial.
Of course, I do not object at all to churches not using the Gospel project. As I said, we are using it in 1 of our 3 Sunday School classes.
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While TGP content may not be a blatant delivery of reformed theology, it certainly introduces those who read the materials to a host of Calvinist contributors who indeed will take you down the road to Calvinism if you tune directly into them. "Boy, this stuff makes me think! I wonder what else Carson, Chandler, Greear, et al. have to say?!" It's a subtle gimmick that LifeWay formerly used in their young adult Sunday School literature (with marginal references to Driscoll, Piper, etc.) until enough Southern Baptists complained. I certainly wrote them a letter about it.
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Anonymous wrote:
Having an editorial board that is exclusively of one mind set is questionable, if not conspiratorial.
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Max wrote:
To continue your earlier analogy: “a gateway drug”?
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All the quotes and all the “dig for more” references are Calvinists on the Gospel Project. So anyone using the Gospel Project who wants to go “deeper” is sent directly to Calvinists sources such as Piper, Mahaney, Driscoll and all the rest.
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Lydia wrote:
Yes! same Lydia . . . if I had thought anyone would be offended by the capitalization of their name, I wouldn’t do it . . . thanks for alerting me to that possibility.
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@ Anonymous:
What I find most concerning about The Gospel Project® is that the Calvinists did not actively seek out Non-Calvinists to serve on the Advisory Council and to assist with the writing of it.
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“And I note that Thom Rainer is not a 5 point Calvinist, and certainly does not believe in limited atonement.”
This is a way the leaders of the SBC are being deceptive “So and so is not even a Calvinist.” The fact is in the SBC today that those who disagree with the Calvinist doctrine of Unconditional Election are not allowed to serve anywhere in the SBC.
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@ Max:
So true! As a case in point, the Summer 2016 lesson book includes two quotations from Jonathan "Keys of the Kingdom" Leeman.
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@ Lydia:
It has all sorts of implications and potential applications, if of course it turns out to be true. Some time we need to discuss it on the OP.
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@ Celia:
From what I have seen so far, Mahaney has not been quoted. However, I have seen quotes from the following familiar names:
Volume 1: D.A. Carson, John Piper, Tim Keller, J.D. Greear
Volume 2: J.D. Greear, Nancy Guthrie, Tim Keller, Philip Ryken, Matt Papa, Matt Chandler
Occasionally they will throw in a quote from Billy Graham, Adrian Rogers, Augustine, Spurgeon, etc. It appears most of the quotes from those who are alive and kickin’ are from the Calvinista camp.
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Deb wrote:
Deb, I became so disgusted with LifeWay over their “subtle” approach to introduce young minds to reformed theology that I stopped following this a few years ago. My experience in this regard goes back to 2010-2011 after reading a few issues of LifeWay’s young adult Sunday School curriculum – the Life Matters “Threads” material they were producing at that time. I complained to LifeWay’s editor of these publications about the extensive use of marginal notations pointing students to sermons, articles, books, websites, and blogs by leading influencers of the New Calvinism movement. For example, in the Winter 2010/2011 Life Matter’s issue, I noted that students were referred predominantly to Calvinists for extracurricular readings/sermons, including: Joshua Harris, John Piper, Matt Chandler, Francis Chan, Mark Driscoll, Tim Keller, C.J. Mahaney, and others. There were frequent marginal notes highlighting Piper’s Desiring God website, as well as Driscoll’s Resurgence site. Visiting either of these will take you on a linked tour of who’s-who and what’s happening in New Calvinism … from the newest book to recommended conferences/events. However, it should be noted that subsequent issues of Life Matters appeared to have addressed this subtle approach to introducing young adults to a reformed “thread” (perhaps others complained as well). I stopped seeing as many marginal references of this sort compared to issues produced in 2010-2011 and perhaps earlier … so I let it go. But, the experience sure didn’t set well with me as I began to notice other “covert” attempts to Calvinize the SBC … such as a YRR preacher gaining control of a traditional SBC church we were formerly members of – yep, he lied to the search committee about his theological persuasion and a nasty split ensued.
For those listening in who are also disgusted with LifeWay, there are other options for Sunday School literature, such as “Vines by the Book” (Google it). Or you might consider just leading students through books of the Bible and praying that the Holy Spirit would teach them!
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@ Deb:
Back when The Gospel Project first launched I think they had both Mahaney and Driscoll quotes and the references to their books on “doctrine” Maybe they’ve removed those since then. Someone actually counted up the number of Calvinist references in the “columns” compared to nonCals and it was like 98.9% Calvinist. There were several blogs that blew up back then. Of course people like William Thornton and those at SBC Voices dismissed those with concerns as being tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorists. If you know anything about Alinsky tactics you’ll see them displayed against anyone who speaks out about Calvinism in the SBC.
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Anonymous wrote:
Well, it’s not supernatural, that’s for sure! If New Calvinists want concerned Southern Baptists to drop their conspiracy theories, they need to stop giving us so much evidence!
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There were ages of time when Christians did not even have the Bible to read for themselves, when they couldn’t even read if they had it because they were illiterate. They were helplessly dependent on others to tell them what it said. And those others very often used that helplessness to set themselves in authority over them, use them and keep them in bondage.
It was through great sacrifice, including the shedding of blood, that the Bible was made accessible to the common man. It was received as a treasure, to be read, searched and discovered.
Today we have so many Bible translations, every person should be able to find one at his/her reading level. There are so many versions, you’d think God had a special Bible for each different walk of life.
Electronic Bibles offer the ability to search, copy, highlight and cross-reference beyond anything in the past, every translation available to compare and contrast.
And there are audio Bibles, you can listen to someone else read it to you.
We also live in a time where most people have been freed from a lot of the mundane chores of life. It doesn’t take us a whole day standing over a washboard to do our laundry, it doesn’t take a whole day to make an uncomfortable foray into town to do our shopping.
And yet, so many believers are not really interested in reading the Bible. So many do not really care what exactly it says. They would rather someone else read it and just fill them in on the gist of it. ‘Just tell us what we’re supposed to do,’ seems to be the attitude.
Is it any surprise that there are those with power motives who are willing to do just that?
And whole churches are unable to figure out what to do with their time unless they have a predigested fill-in-the-blanks program to follow. Why are all these churches, of all different denominations, so anxious to take part in the gospelly gospelized gospel project? Are there none competent to teach from the Bible themselves in these churches?
Christ provided spiritual gifts, including the gift of teaching, for the edification of the church. Where is this gift in the local churches? In the epistles we are all encouraged to learn the word well enough to be able to teach it, and in fact, being ‘able to teach’ is a requirement of elders. And yet, in practice, in the churches I have been a part of, I have not seen evidence of this. It is a rare elder, these days, who is capable of teaching. Without some kind of little paperback book with blanks to fill in, we are apparently lost.
And this is another reason I am done.
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@ Celia:
Thanks for this. I never saw the original materials. I have seen Volumes 1-4 of the current release.
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Mark wrote:
An obvious spin would be God Refining and Purifying the Church, casting out all the Heretic and Apostate dross and leaving only a Righteous Refined Remnant.
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@ Max:
I used to be a very loyal LifeWay customer until 2008, when the Neo-Cals came onto my radar screen. Haven't made any purchases there in the last eight years.
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Celia wrote:
“There is no Christ, Only CALVIN.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg7MAacSPNM
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@ Celia:
Any idea where I could get some of the old TGP materials? I would enjoy comparing the first edition with the current.
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Bridget wrote:
“Give me your children and I will make them mine. You will pass away, but they will remain Mine.”
— A.Hitler, cult leader
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Lydia wrote:
Is there a difference?
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
That’s exactly the spin. It’s been years ago 2006? maybe that the Founder’s led the movement of “unregenerate” church membership cleanup. There was a resolution passed at one of the conventions. You see if you don’t jump through all the right hoops at a Calvinist church then your considered “unregenerate” Before the megastar Calvinist and I guess even today most Calvinist churches do not have very good Baptism/church growth numbers – the way to explain this is that the church with good Baptism/church growth records are filled with false converts. There used to be quite a few “young” pastors who bragged about going a year without one baptism because he wasn’t going to accept a false convert. The secret that nobody is telling all these young Acts 29 and Acts 29 wannabe church planters is that not everybody is going to be Matt Chandler and their church isn’t going to become a mega church paying them six figures – so the leaders pat them on the head and mock nonCal churches as having “unregenerate” membership. As Calvinism has risen in the SBC baptism have declined.
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Deb wrote:
I’m not familiar with this group of people. Is there an egalitarian in the bunch?
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@ Deb:
I don’t, sorry. The church we were at at that time looked at the material and sent it back. I’d be suprised if someone reading here wouldn’t have a line on it. Has Lifeway pulled all the first editions? I wonder if one of the stores would still have some copies?
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@ FW Rez:
Absolutely not! Complementarianism is an essential doctrine with this crowd. This video from the 2012 T4G gathering explains their position.
http://t4g.org/media/2012/05/complementarianism-essential-or-expendable-2/
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@ FW Rez:
LOL! No, no, no, no and that would be no.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
The BFM is not quite scripture as there is still wriggle room for nonCals to accept it. I would predict that within the next five years or so there will be a call to revise the BFM and move it in a more Calvinistic slant.
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Celia wrote:
Reminds me of Amway. All recruits believe they have what it takes to be the next big leader. Of course, most crash and burn.
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Deb wrote:
For a denomination that built its brand on being “Cooperative”, they don’t seem to want to play well with others.
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@ Celia:
That's why Mohler has been getting his ducks (err lieutenants) in a row… He has been quite successful in placing the right people in positions of power in the SBC. It's just a matter of time until things are set in stone, as you have surmised.
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Max wrote:
Exactly. It’s just the first bite of an addictive diet.
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Max wrote:
I second this radical idea, Max!
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Lydia wrote:
The pewpeons have no idea who these people are or what the issues are. I agree with Max that the ignorance and apathy of the average pewpeon is a huge part of the problem we have with the YRR. For the “leaders” there is no excuse whatsoever. They are willfully blind or complicit. There are no consequences for “leaders” but only for the pewpeons who dare to question the “leaders” who know best.
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@ Deb:
Yep! Do you all follow SBC Today? I haven’t followed it real closely but they’ve been blogging about the non Disclosure agreements and gag orders being forced with anyone who wants NAMB money. Also there was the whole IMB debacle where they just cut all the older (which means probably not Calvinist) missionaries and forced them to sign gag orders before they could receive severance. The SBC is becoming an elder RULED convention and people in the pews don’t even know it’s going on. It’s becoming very catholic with a lot of these Calvinist churches now doing “church revitilaztion” – taking over older struggling churches with the “mother church” being in complete charge of the older (and almost always a nonCalvinist church) It’s like there are now local Bishops over multiple church sites now. Power is being concentrated into the hands a very select few.
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@ Celia:
So much to do, so little time…
I have been missing that discussion. Guess I need to catch up (and write a blog post about it). 😉
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FW Rez wrote:
BTW: If you inadvertently transpose the first m and n in “denomination” you get an interestingly different root word.
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siteseer wrote:
While that may be the case with some people it has not been the case for me my people. I practiced medicine full time and also kept house and raised children; it took all day and parts of the night and was anything but mundane. Of the two adult females in the next generation down from me one teaches high school and raises children and the other teaches business law at a local college and raises children; again it takes all day and into the night for them and is nowhere near mundane. My mother lived in the day before some of the modern conveniences and both lived on and helped with an urban farm situation and also raised children. And all these women are/were (Mom is dead) ‘informed’ about scripture and a lot more to boot, and all of us do or did ‘evangelize’ in the public arena in one form or another.
And yes, we value good curricula, especially the professional teachers on that list. Just in case anybody wondered, of course. Teaching is not just a spiritual gift, it is also a learned skill utilizing learned content. IMO, if the church cannot offer me and mine, including the grandchildren, something comparable at least with what they get at school and at home, then the church has to step back and rethink whether it really understands the world we live in. Fortunately, my current church is full of people like us and the church goes for quality and content in its teaching functions. It is not possibly that we are the only church on the planet that does this.
I am thinking that one of the attractions of neo-cal teaching is that it appears to be content rich and unless one already had a fair grasp of the issues it would be easy to miss the error embedded in the content.
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@ Deb:
There’s a lot going on. The Calvinists are getting pretty bold now that they’ve pretty much taken over all the power structures in the SBC. The convention coming up will probably have some questions asked about NAMB and IMB but the Calvinists on stage will be ready with some idiotic non answer answer that the fanbois will hoot and hollar about and brag on the internet about people being “Mohlerized” and such. No one will be forced to give any real answers and those asking the questions of “dear leaders” will be attacked viscously. Asking question is now divisive and hateful.
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Lea wrote:
So much of what goes on in Christianland is to help fund the Christian publishing industry.
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Siteseer and Ron Oommen, I second both of your posts.
What I see happening is not just the control aspect, but their very jobs being on the line.
Think about it. If in fact the pewpeons did wake up and read the bible as we all should be doing, what need is there for the man in front facing us waving his arms, dripping sweat and spittle on us? There goes the well-off six-figure salary, trips to only God knows where, private lessons for the three kids, the nice cars, the McMansion, the advanced degrees, etc., etc.
Basically, these men and their cronies have made merchandise of the God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Gospel, and the Bible, as well as people.
And trust me, we know from scripture what Jesus thinks of making His Father’s home a moneychanging, den of thieves, merchandising pit. It will no be pretty for these guys when Jesus gets the last word.
I do not wich that on anyone, but rather would see them become like Zachaeus and turn from their ways and make restitution. However, me thinks that the world’s goodies are too good to pass up and will keep the machine going until the bitter end.
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Jamie Carter wrote:
Many Methodist churches are refusing to use Beth Moore’s studies since she started going Calvinistic.
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siteseer wrote:
It does seem a bit lazy, doesn’t it?
My last few sunday school teachers are college professors who specialize in biblical history. That is refreshing.
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Deb wrote:
“If a child were to ask you what it means to be a man or woman, would you be able to biblically respond?”
Ridiculous!!! These things are not complicated.
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@ Patriciamc:
Do you mean charismatic? The Calvinists hate Beth Moore – her being a woman who teaches and she hangs out with “heretics” like Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer. I read some of her earlier work and she was definately not Calvinist nor is her church down in Houston.
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FW Rez wrote:
And therein lies the root of all of this. I know some reading this blog wonder what is the big deal is. The big deal is that there’s a subtle undermining of the gospel message from God so loved the world that he provided a means of salvation to God created some to be saved and created others to burn for all eternity. It’s Satan subtly perverting the message in order to make people reject Christ.
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Patriciamc wrote:
I don’t think it’s subtle at all. It’s a stark contrast to the god I grew up believing in. It’s so stark that I can’t even process it.
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Lea wrote:
Unless by subtle you meant THEY are being subtle bringing this in, in which case I agree except I would label it deceitful rather than subtle.
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Celia wrote:
I got this from a Methodist publication a couple of years ago. I don’t remember the publication’s name. Anyway, a minister was writing on Beth Moore and noted that his church started to closely look at her writings when one woman came to him distraught at what she thought was Moore saying that God caused evil for his glory. This woman had had a traumatic experience and was upset that God might have deliberately caused the event. This minister also noted that Moore had begun quoting Piper and from The Desiring God site. I myself remeber her saying how much she liked Desiring God. Anyway, the article said that this particular church and others were not going to use her materials anymore.
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Celia wrote:
The New Calvinists in my area don’t seem to have a problem with putting “their girls” under Beth Moore’s teaching … she is one of the few women teachers who has their blessing. I suppose it’s her grace emphasis, without a distinct theological slant one way or the other, that is OK with them. Bus loads of women from SBC-YRR church plants in my neck of the woods travel to Moore’s simulcast locations.
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okrapod wrote:
Lydia, out of a whole church there are none who have time to become competent teachers on their own?
Do they have time to watch tv?
As long as people look to someone else to do the thinking for them, there will be those with ulterior motives who are glad to do it.
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Lea wrote:
Stark if you know the Bible. Subtle to those unfamiliar with what the Bible really says and fall for the deceitful language the noe-cons use.
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Lea wrote:
Exactly, and both subtle and deceitful.
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Lea wrote:
I have yet to be asked that of any of my children or grandchildren….
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Celia wrote:
Yep, no need to come in the back door by stealth and deception any longer. The New Calvinists have successfully taken over most SBC entities, with hardly a whimper from SBC’s non-Calvinist millions. They now control SBC’s leading seminaries, mission agencies, church planting program, and publishing house. There’s not much point in non-Calvinist messengers traveling to the upcoming SBC annual meeting to complain about Calvinization of the denomination – that window is now closed.
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FW Rez wrote:
Since when? I thought Baptists did that all the time when they wrote Sunday School material.
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@ Patriciamc:
I think she’s moved more toward an ecumenical anything goes as long as you say you love Jesus theology. The Calvinists blogs that I read call her a heretic and I knew a church locally where there was a fight because some of the women were doing one of her studies and the new Calvinist minister wasn’t having it. A lot of Calvinists don’t like “women’s ministry in general because they think “women’s ministry” shows that men aren’t doing their job.
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FW Rez:
Plus, I bet if we delved into those people, we would find a bunch of things on which they disagree.
You know. Wherever there are 2 Baptists, there are 3 opinions and such…
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Patriciamc wrote:
… and it’s working, too…
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FW Rez wrote:
That is a good one! I won’t deny that for a second.
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@ Max:
It would take years to undo the Calvinization of the SBC. A lot of these young Calvinists don’t actually realize that it’s taken years to get to this point. They think it just naturally happened. It all goes back to the CR which the Calvinists think didn’t go far enough – the CR didn’t Calvinize the SBC. What’s that guy Resinger? He’s the one who started handing out Calvinist literature at the seminaries way back 35 years or so ago. One of these blogs had letters between him and Patterson where he was complaining about the lack of emphasis on Calvinism in the CR.
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Deb wrote:
Well, LifeWay is certainly not the trusted source of Sunday School literature that its predecessor the “Sunday School Board” was for nearly a century. On my last visit to the local LifeWay store a few years ago, I was greeted by a display of Piper, Keller, and Driscoll books just inside the front door. I made a prompt U-Turn and haven’t been back since.
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@ Celia:
The Stalinization of the SBC is complete. The time to have opposed ‘dear leader’ is long past. He has control of the entities and even Paige Patterson is getting on the gravy train as did others.
It is about celebrity, legacy and money. They believe the determinist God is rewarding them. After all, God is in control of all the deception, celebrity and appointed them into their current positions.
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Deb wrote:
Deb:
I don’t discount what you are saying there, but I attribute it more to culture and social connections.
It’s pretty well known that there are rifts between Rainer and Mohler, but they do run in some of the same circles.
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Celia wrote:
But that doesn’t seem to make sense? If the theory is that everyone is a Calvinist, but then everyone turns out not to be a Calvinists, it’s a trick because they are Calvinists anyway?
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@ Max:
Well Lifeway promotes her because she brings in the money. But from personal experience and from the Calvinist blogs I keep up with there seems to be a large faction of Calvinists who think she’s a heretic. Pulpit and Pen is one and another blog is Michellelesleybooks.com or just google Beth Moore heretic and I think you’ll stumble into a lot of Calvinist sites.
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FW Rez wrote:
Well, on that point, the BFM has been adopted as the Convention’s doctrinal confession. So it would make sense that people who are going to write denominational material agree with the doctrinal statements that the denomination has adopted.
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Lydia wrote:
So true. And they are destroying the denomination as hundreds of thousands of devoted Christians flee the Southern Baptist insanity every year.
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@ Gram3:
I ran into a member of my former church a few weeks ago who queried me about my long absence. I gave her some honest reasons with sincerity and professionalism. She pulled out her iPad and made a list. She asked me what and who to Google. :o)
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In this post I talk about how The Gospel Project is also being used by the Evangelical free Church of America. The Evangelical Free in Radford, VA called Valley Bible Church uses The Gospel Project.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/02/22/analysis-of-the-eastern-district-of-the-evangelical-free-church-of-america/
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Celia wrote:
Celia:
I agree with you completely on this point.
Autonomy is a critical doctrine that says much about who Baptists are as a people and the Priesthood of the Believer.
I don’t like multi-site campuses, but I really don’t like the fact that SBC has apparently received a church that explicitly does not agree with autonomy. That is a bad precedent. I hope it is addressed.
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@ siteseer:
You quoted me and then addressed Lydia apparently on a different but related topic. I am not sure what is going on there.
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@ Lydia:
Do you think Southwestern’s going have a Calvinist President after Paige? The problem is too much apathy in the pews. Calvinism is seen as an ivory tower discussion to a lot of people which is where it was traditionally going back 30 years or so. This neoCalvinism affects every aspect of the church and a lot of people are not able to connect the dots between “home groups” that are actually used as enforcement and thought control to having to sign membership covenants. I expect a mass exodus from the SBC over the next many years as the abuse increases.
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Celia wrote:
Since Calvinism is the gospel to them, rather than the Gospel, these young pastors are not reaching the lost with their message. They don’t preach the Cross of Christ available to ALL people … they have no altar calls because they view this as manipulative … they sing no invitational hymns at the end of their services as an act of worship to call sinners to the Savior … they mock the sinner’s prayer as superstitious. One young reformer at an SBC church plant to increase his baptism rate announces periodically “Baptizing next Sunday – Sign up on Facebook!” How and when these folks who get baptized actually came to Christ is a mystery, but I guess they figure they are the “elect” since they keep going to church.
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@ Max:
Oh my! Are we dating ourselves if we remember going to The Baptist Bookstore? LOL!
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Celia wrote:
I’m sure that the good Dr. Mohler already has a man in mind.
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Celia wrote:
That reminds me of one of Driscoll’s ridiculous quotes where he said that the men in his church need to be teaching their wives theology at home, which is a massive misunderstanding of Paul talking about women who because of their culture, were not allowed to study. I think we should rename Driscoll Wackadoodle.
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Celia wrote:
Well, at least it used to be Baptist then, rather than Presbyterian! ;^)
Yes, I was young and now am old. I’ve been a Southern Baptist for 60+ years, with ancestors in SBC ranks for over 100 years. I’ll stick with it for a while longer before joining the done with church (but faithful to Christ) ranks.
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@ Anonymous:
The theory is that some people are Calvinist enough to cooperate with for the time being. Al Mohler would tell you that you cannot accept the U in Tulip and reject any of the other four points and still be consistent. At some point in the future things will get purified even more so that even the four pointers won’t be accepted. But to reject the U completely is to be seen as a semi Pelegian (heretic) and semi Pelegianism leads to liberalism. Just recently over on the Founder’s blog Calvinist idol Tom Nettles wrote about how non Calvinism always leads to liberalism which eventually leads to Universalism yada, yada, yada.
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@ Anonymous:
It won’t be addressed because the NAMB is supporting this all under the deception of revitalization of older churches. The SBC is funding this. And the Calvinists are getting hold of lot’s of resources this way as far as property that after they’ve taken control they can then sell off to put the money in the “Mother churches” coffers.
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siteseer wrote:
I know! The vast majority of us don’t wonder; we just get on with life. Sure there are questions and debates about roles (which are man-made in my opinion), but not about the meaning. Or, if anyone does ask, just say that what it means to be a man or woman is to reflect the image of God.
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@ Anonymous:
Here we go….again.
And Russ Moore is a 4 pointer and Kevin Ezell, it seems was a 3 pointer back when transitioning Highview to stealth Calvinism and elder rule and then he was a 4 pointer. And Akin. 4 pts, right,? But in the end, it is Points with Mohler that got them in the club.
So not sure why points have any bearing on the situation. Did you see the link the watchdog had on Rainer’s side business of answering questions about church to young ignorant pastors for the low price of 259 bucks? And he is one of the highest paid entity presidents. Some were saying almost half million a year.
We have Setzer, the LifeWay church planting expert, double dipping with all his church plant fails…over and over. Who pays? The donors? Oh, and Barnabas Piper hired at LifeWay despite being Presbyterian and paid 6 figures as strategic content manager or something like that. When he was hired I was reading an article on his website of him promoting infant baptism. I have not checked back to see if it was still there and I believe he joined a Baptist Church after getting his six figures appointment.
We are not discussing honest men of Integrity… . so why play pretend?
I could go on all day with examples of the celebrity Christian High Life. Just like Jesus, right?
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@ Celia:
They just got my former church…which is debt free. They tried for years. It has happened all over Louisville.
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@ Max:
I visited one of the local Calvinist churches for a few weeks. The young minister talked about “the gospel” but never presented the “Gospel” The idea is that if his preaching somehow stirred your heart you would followup with him and ask questions showing that God was working on your heart. If he just presented an old fashioned plan of salvation someone might think they were being wooed by the Holy Spirit when actually it was just their own ego or something or other. These guys were actually afraid you can make the Gospel so easy that people would think they were saved but weren’t really saved according to their qualifications. It is a very works based idea. To really be saved you have to show the Pastor all kinds of works before he will declare you saved and ready for Baptism.
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Celia wrote:
I grew up there. My mom was in there buying sheet music 2-3x a week. :o)
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Velour wrote:
As per our signs, ‘The Episcopal Church Welcomes (them)’. In our anglo-catholic episcopal parish there are quite a few former evangelicals including baptists, and the director of formation is a former evangelical and a graduate of an evangelical seminary who is going through the educational and discernment process to become an episcopal priest. In our confirmation class almost everybody was a former evangelical of some description.
We also have a fair sized group of former Roman Catholics. Please note the difference in capital letters. Father S says that “we are catholic, little c, but not Romans.” There is a specific difference which is why I sometimes do and sometimes do not use a capital C. It is not that I am particularly careless about capitals on purpose. Similarly ‘baptist’ is a general term for several denominations while Southern Baptist is a specific name for a specific group. It gets complicated but I keep trying.
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Celia wrote:
I think that’s the one I went to where about half of the articles on the front page were cattily making fun of female author/preacher types. It was very offputting.
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@ Max:
Stealth Calvinism that took over churches was never blatant. They were very careful. They used the same biblical words but just did not give THEIR definition. Who disagrees with grace? Sovereignty? Sin is bad?
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@ Celia:
I have something I have to tell you guys. I have been wanting to talk it over with Dee on the phone. I noticed something when I was researching Redeemer Arlington for my post that I did last week. Redeemer partners with SendDC. Send DC apparently is the church planting organization for the NAMB. Over the last few years Send DC has been involved in planting roughly 20 churches in the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area from Frederick, MD to Fredericksburg, VA. I looked at the profiles of several churches and it appears that Send DC is only planting Neo-Calvinist church plants in the DC area. There are a couple that don’t appear to be Neo-Cal but they are ethnic congregations and African-American. And given the history of the SBC and its problems with racism I can’t imagine the NAMB would turn down an ethnic church plant.
What I would like to do in the near future is do a profile of all 20 churches, research who is sponsoring them and how. Then I would like to contact and ask questions.
If this is true then it begs the question if the NAMB only has a Neo-Calvinist agenda.
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@ Lydia:
Around here a lot of the older churches had bought property adjacent to the church so the real estate that just be chipped away at is an enormous asset and the old church usually didn’t realize that they were giving up all of their say as far as anything – especially in regards to money.
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@ FW Rez:
Fortunately, the average Southern Baptist doesn’t do any extracurricular “religious” reading. Heck, you can’t get most of them to read their Bibles regularly! Therein, is the SBC dilemma – little spiritual discernment in the pews developed and exercised by knowing the Scriptures; thus, easy pickins’ for theological takeover. The New Calvinists know this and use it to their advantage.
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@ Anonymous:
Autonomy for the “elders”? :o)
In my view it isn’t Baptist unless the congregation votes (those that want to) at the business meeting for a new faucet in the men’s restroom. :o)
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@ Lydia:
This time of year I remember having to make the trip after finishing up a morning VBS because we needed more of this or that for VBC. I’d be exhaused and my kids would be sleeping in the back seat meaning I didn’t get any rest that afternoon.
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okrapod wrote:
I talked to a lady at the Presbyterian church and she said she thought maybe half the church was former Baptists..
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Dave (Eagle) wrote:
To control the corridors of power!
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@ Lea:
They are mean. But my experience is that most Calvinist are mean.
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Lydia wrote:
Heh.
To me, Baptist churchs should at a bare minimum have things like congregational votes and non-infant baptisms…so it blows my mind to read above about a proponent of infant baptism joining the Baptist church. IT’s in the name! Gah.
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Celia wrote:
‘Mean’ is not a fruit of the spirits. We will know them by their fruits. Ergo…
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okrapod wrote:
Oops, sorry about that, correction noted. The old eyes get boggled at times. I wish there was a way to edit. Please forgive me.
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Lea wrote:
I can certainly believe that. By no means are ‘none’ much less ‘done’ the only alternatives.
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@ Dave (Eagle):
Someone did that at Peter Lumpkins blog for St. Louis a few years ago. Look at the church plants in DC and cross reference if you can to Acts 29, 9Marks, and Founders list of churches. The NAMB will not give out any information. The most they’ll say is that the churches affirm the BFM. It’ll be hard for you to prove they’re neoCal churches because more and more the Associations that are Calvinists have stopped putting up information. Even the churches themselves are not specific anymore about their doctrine. But good luck trying.
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Gram3 wrote:
… until Judgment Day.
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Celia wrote:
It’s becoming increasingly clear that some leaders of SBC’s Conservative Resurgence were indeed looking beyond conservative to a Calvinist Resurgence (e.g., Al Mohler). I don’t believe non-Calvinist architects of the the CR expected the CR pendulum to swing back 500 years and pick up John Calvin; they probably still have their mouths open on that one. Mohler et al. took advantage of the opportunity after SBC non-Calvinists and Calvinists linked arms to rout those rascal moderates and liberals from the denomination under the inerrancy banner.
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Celia wrote:
That is a great question.
I sure hope that will not be a default position. I know some good folks out there who would be great Presidents at SWBTS and they are not Calvinists.
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Celia wrote:
I don’t agree with that. And I like Tom Nettles. But I don’t agree with that.
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@ Celia:
There are various tribes of Calvinists. Granted the old guard Calvinists (Founders’ type) have problems with any woman who preaches/teaches. The “new” Calvinists, on the other hand … at least the ones in my part … allow their women to sit under Moore’s teaching since she confesses submission to male authority in other church settings beyond her women-only meetings. Priscilla Shirer is another popular speaker among the YRR women in my area.
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Lydia wrote:
Wow. I would really like that info about Stetzer, if you can find it. If you do, send it to Dee or Deb.
I don’t like financial shenanigans, as you know.
I can’t keep up with all of the points either. I am told by Calvinists all the time that I am not a Calvinist, which is fine by me.
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Lydia wrote:
Yes, I know your feelings about that!
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Anonymous wrote:
Thanks for your confirmation from a Calvinist perspective.
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Lea wrote:
Lea:
But wouldn’t that make them full fledged Calvinists? Why would Baptists wanting to flee Calvinism become Presbyterians?
Am I missing something? Sorry.
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Max wrote:
Welcome. But I am not a Calvinist.
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Anonymous wrote:
I do not know. They could be like me and just ignoring any doctrine they don’t like. Or deciding that the anti-woman bent was a more important reason to leave (my church has female ministers/elders/etc).
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@ Celia:
Tell me about it! Another thing- the older churches they take over are where they send SBTS grads to pastor. Some have familiar last names. A sort of stepping stone where they can be paid by the program and build their online brand at the same time as a “pastor”. Usually Seminary students are directed to attend.
Then you also have paid staff at Boyce and SBTS double dipping as pastors, music Ministers, etc. Burk and Moore have done this. As have Ware, Schriener and others.
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@ Anonymous:
Seriously!
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@ Anonymous:
That still does not explain Driscoll, Mahaney, James “congregationalism is from Satan” McDonald, etc….
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@ Anonymous:
All you had to do was follow his own words/position over the years. Not doing your homework for you when I am aware of your deceptive brain gaming here and being protected.
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Anonymous wrote:
In the first place there are presbyterians and then there are presbyterians-complicated just like everything else. There are ‘liberal’ presbyterians as well as conservative presbyterians. The neo-cals are not liberal, do not baptize infants and do not seem to have the same ideas about covenant theology as the presbyterians. At least that is what it looks like from the outside. We have one presbyterian church in this county which has become a go to place for a number of lesbian couples, so that would be different from SBC mega here. So, Calvin this or that is not the whole story it seems.
For those who join us, well we are a whole different cup of tea both in faith and practice. Not everybody wants to make such a radical change.
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siteseer wrote:
Nor have I. I’m wondering if this is some sort of other “talk” we are supposed to have with the kids after or before The Birds and the Bees.
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Anonymous wrote:
??? You mean like Presbyterian non-autonomy?
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Celia wrote:
And it had Sunday School supplies, etc. Remember BTU?
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Lea wrote:
Well, if you accept Reformed theology, then the most consistent thing to do is to join a real Reformed church that teaches covenantal baptism. I have heard young pups say that they would rather attend a “deep” Presbyterian church than an “Arminian” Baptist church. That makes some sense if the overriding concern is the 5 points and not so much the entire Covenantal framework.
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Just an off-topic quick update about long-time poster here Jeannette Altes. She lost her job, has been treated for a tumor, and is very low on finances. She needs assistance to pay her June rent and two people have given a total of $220 to the GoFundMe account:
http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp
Jeannette still needs about $400, if others can please help out. She will have other monthly bills coming due next week.
Please keep her in prayer. Any other discussions will be on the right side of the screen under the Open Discussion tab.
Thank you!
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Anonymous wrote:
If I read him correctly in BHGAFHG, Nettles believes that the Atonement is sufficient *only* for the elect. That used to be considered a form of genuine hyper-Calvinism. I hope I am wrong because Baptists have already done the hyper-Calvinist thing.
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Gram3 wrote:
I even remember when it was BYPU, but don’t tell anybody. Memorize bible verses, have bible drills (how fast can you find the verse) and training in public speaking and material presentation to the group. Or maybe that was on a different planet.
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Max wrote:
They figure they’re immune —
They’re Gods’s Speshul Pets, The Predestined Elect(TM)!
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Anonymous wrote:
Regardless of that history, it is my opinion that for a project of this scope (they even have a Twitter account) the Advisory Board should be more representative of the denomination as a whole. When they get to Essential Doctrine “Election” (Number 52 of 99 in one location) I wonder how balanced they are.
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Lydia wrote:
My Dear Wormwood,
I refer you to my previous epistle on Semantics, specifically the redefinition of words into their “diabolical meanings”.
Your Ravenously Affectionate Uncle,
Screwtape
WAR IS PEACE!
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY!
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH!
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Patriciamc wrote:
I’ve got a couple names for him which I’ve used for a while, but Deb & Dee would bleep them out.
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@ Celia:
I remember. It wasn't nearly as flashy as LifeWay is now (or was 8 years ago when I last made a purchase there). Gotta love Amazon!
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Lydia wrote:
“The rule of The Party is For Ever.
LONG LIVE BIG BROTHER!”
— Comrade O’Brian, Inner Party, Airstrip One, Oceania, 1984
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Anonymous wrote:
Some of them were not even Baptists at the time they worked on GP.
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Deb wrote:
The Right People(TM)?
That means “And this time We WILL Achieve True Communism!”
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Deb wrote:
And all other Pyramid Schemes.
While the Big Dogs who started at the top of the Pyramid laugh all the way to the bank.
“Gonna jive my way
To the Top of the Pyramid,
The Top of the Pyramid;
Gonna get my Name on top of that List…”
— Some classic Dr Demento song that never made it to YouTube
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Anonymous wrote:
Been doing this for 10 years at ground zero so know the games. Here is how it works:
Individual says they are not a Calvinist. (Even Wax has said this)
Yet individual is a pastor/elder/ministry worker in a reformed/Acts 29/9 Marx/Baptist 21/etc. church.
Individual defends Mohler/Piper/etc.
Individual claims they agree with priesthood of believer and autonomy yet will claim that voting on elders is “congregational polity’. And we all know how that works in authoritarian churches.
I might have missed a few. Oh wait, I have heard that one must baptize infants to be a Calvinist.
But individual is not a Calvinist because that started to be a problem.
It’s why I call them determinists because it is all about authority and control. Stealthy, of course.
The brain gaming gets old. The entire resurgence is built on deceit and conning people.
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okrapod wrote:
This is so true. I heard NT Wright say that each generation must study the historical Jesus. The more I thought about that and church history, the more convinced I am this is crucial.
And what a rich topic with so many subsets! It would take years to dive into it.
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That whole baptism thing is a huge issue, if people are actually looking at the theology behind the differing opinions. It is not just about age. It is also about what is baptism and what does it mean and what if anything does it accomplish and how does one view a baptized person vs an unbaptized person and is it linked to church membership and does one have the right to deny baptism to someone and is the act of baptizing something limited to the person being baptized or is there a communal aspect of it and what about baptismal vows and what about sponsors/godparents. Stop. Take a breath. Proceed. Not to forget to mention that the Nicene creed says I/we believe in baptism for the forgiveness of sin, which baptists in general do not. The issue of whether baptism is necessary for salvation is a big issue also. But most important of all is the question of how much water does it take to baptize somebody. And now somebody wanted to add the issue of what did the person doing the baptizing actually believe in the way of doctrine.
I don’t see how baptists in general can compromise on any of their doctrines regarding baptism without ceasing to be baptists, which after all is the set of beliefs for which they are named.
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ION:
England’s friendly against Portugal tonight is, by all accounts, one of the worst games of fitba’ ever played. Wembley is full and you can still hear the players shouting to each other.
Supporters are emailing in to the BBC website’s text commentary with suggestions (some of them accompanied by photographs) on the best way to arrange one’s DVD collection. On the pitch, there’s only marginally higher action-density than during a Superbowl. Though England have just made two substitutions.
IHTIH
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P.S. England have just scored; whatever.
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I’m also getting to grips, at least at a qualitative level, with the mechanics of radiation-driven shockwaves in dense media such as occurs in, for instance, supernovae.
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Max wrote:
And trust me, I found out the hard way not to ” bring up” the CR even among the ” Traditionalists” in the SBC….there’s one thing they have in common Trads and the Neo-Cals, it’s the belief that the CR was good, no matter who got hurt, even if those who got hurt were loyal, to the denomination.
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okrapod wrote:
It makes me want to crawl in a hole.
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Max wrote:
And trust me, I found out the hard way not to ” bring up” the CR even among the ” Traditionalists” in the SBC….there’s one thing they have in common Trads and the Neo-Cals, it’s the belief that the CR was good, no matter who got hurt, even if those who got hurt were loyal, to the denomination. okrapod wrote:
Can you give us some links on this baptism controversy….I have heard it is occurring, but have not read anything in detail concerning it…..thanks!
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Lydia wrote:
Spot on.
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Lea wrote:
LOL! Alan House didn’t write that! It’s a quote from the literature.
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K.D. wrote:
It is never right to do wrong. Other believers, particularly those who took a “moderate” position on certain Scripture, were chased from the SBC in an un-Christlike manner. Traditionalists are now finding themselves on the receiving end of that sort of behavior as the Calvinist Resurgence continues.
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Deb wrote:
That quote is not mine but Greear’s.
I am still wary of Calvinists, which is why I always read WW.
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Lydia wrote:
Oh, but Lydia, it’s OK if you behave that way since you have been called into the world for such a time as this to restore the true gospel that Christendom has lost.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Good work! I think you will find that once you wrap your head around this, a lot of other otherwise inexplicable phenomena will start to make sense…
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Anonymous wrote:
Actually, it would have been much better if SBC’s New Calvinists had simply joined Presbyterian ranks, rather than aggravating SBC’s non-Calvinist majority. It would have been a much easier row to hoe for all concerned without any weeping and gnashing of teeth. Of course, they wouldn’t be enjoying all the assets they have captured in the form of seminaries, mission agencies, countless church facilities taken over, and a huge bank account called the Cooperative Program financed by millions of trusting and unsuspecting SBC non-Calvinists.
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@ Anonymous:
Oh, sorry, you are the other “Anonymous.”
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William Thornton wrote:
Would they even know if they are SBC? Perhaps that came as a shock to find out, too. :o)
Is Greears Summit using “Great Commission Baptist” after all that name change hullabaloo?
I think it was the Louisville convention where Greear flew home on a donor friends private jet after doing his humility shtick on stage.
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I definitely believe that there’s a variety of denominations. There’s an Episcopalian church in my area that sponsors a Gotham Fellows knockoff and follows John Piper and *Pastor* Mark Driscoll on Twitter.
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Deb wrote:
I’ve never followed them, but I might based on just a bit of searching I did just now. Check out these two link relating to The Gospel Project:
http://sbctoday.com/demoralizing-doctrinal-discrimination/
http://sbctoday.com/the-gospel-project-a-birdseye-view-from-the-blue-ridge-mountains/.
I searched the archives on Calvinism are there are quite a lot of recent articles speaking against it. I did not have time yet to dig very deep, but so far it does not appear that SBC Today is a fan of the YRR crowd.
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@ William Thornton:
The 'reply with quotes' can at times be confusing. We are glad you're here.
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@ Ken F:
You might like Peter Lumpkins site also. He has a lot and the Calvinists hate, loathe, and despise him as well as SBC Today.
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Gram3 wrote:
Back awhile on one of the old topic threads, I think it was Max or Bill who said that so long as the pot-lucks and social events continue as always, the serfs don’t give a rat’s rip.
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Max wrote:
“Whatever would God do without MEEEEEEEEEEE?”
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Lydia wrote:
The Cause is so Righteous as to justify any evil to bring it about.
Just ask Citizen Robespierre and Comrade Pol Pot.
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Muff Potter wrote:
The old phrase for that is “bread and circuses.”
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Alan House wrote:
I got that, was just replying to it on your comment, not to you in particular. Sorry for the confusion!
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Ken F wrote:
Not that I think people shouldn’t pay attention to what their church is doing and teaching, but I think fellowship with other Christians is one of the main reasons to attend church in the first place, and potlucks and so on are a better opportunity to really get to know people than a church service.
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okrapod wrote:
I was baptized twice. Missionary Baptist churches require baptism as part of membership.
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Ken F wrote:
A Capitol idea … like in The Hunger Games.
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@ Ken F:
You might enjoy this:
http://sbctoday.com/an-introduction-to-“a-statement-of-the-traditional-southern-baptist-understanding-of-god’s-plan-of-salvation”/
You can read the 921 comments on the RSS feed linked at the bottom. One of the most strident YRR pastors on the thread is now a strident athiest. That was a shocker. He had been a very outspoken and loyal water carrier for quite a while.
This is the statement that prompted ‘AL Mohler to say that the signers should be “marginalized”. He called it leaning toward semi Pelagian. The Neo Cals were furious over this statement. I could not figure out why. The own the SBC. They need not worry.
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Gram3 wrote:
I may be wrong, but I’m guessing it’s Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville?
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Max wrote:
The branch of the Presbyterians that my relatives were in (1800’s to 2000) weren’t as rabid as these NeoCalvinists. Too bad the NeoCals didn’t just start their own denomination and leave everybody else alone.
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Bridget wrote:
Maybe I am missing something here, but what is the point of this indoctrination? What is the end game here? Why go to all the trouble of devising these schemes, when our Lord set the foundation and put out the plan for the Church in the first place? Isn’t it easy enough just to follow what Jesus initiated, and the Holy Spirit then engenders?
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I looked at the preview guide.
– 99 essential Christian doctrines
– special revelation (whatever that is)
– Everything is numbered – lot’s of truncated bible verses to make the authors point.
– This material will reveal everything.
– emphasis on obedience.
And of course the editors know best for you – much delineation between the “leaders” and “learners” and how they might know God but not really know God. According to the one video I watched, even the leaders are told not to trust themselves – follow the material. Sowing of self doubt is one of the key indicators of cultic behaviour. It’s an expanded redux of Purpose Driven – don’t worry, we’ll list everything that God wants you to know.
And that’s as far down this rabbit hole as I want to go.
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@ Jack:
Not trusting oneself is a biggie in Neo Cal circles. They don’t want you paying attention to your gut or that little voice that is telling you to question. They most certainly don’t want you to be guided by your Advocate. You would not need them anymore.
I always think of 1st John when this comes up. We already have the best Teacher. And He is saying listen to your gut and walk away! :o)
This stuff really wrecks havoc on teens. In several ways. Neither is good.
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@ Velour:
As I’ve noted before, I’m a long-time Southern Baptist (60+ years). I’ve worshiped alongside “old” Calvinists within SBC and found them to be civil in their discourse; they have provided good perspectives on certain Scripture. This “new” Calvinism is an entirely different beast … it is arrogant, militant, and aggressive.
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Hi All,
Long-time TWW poster Jeannette Altes has received $420 from several contributors toward her June rent that is due $565.
She has fallen on hard times, has had a tumor that is being treated, lost her job and is looking for work.
Is there anyone else, or a few folks, who could donate $180 so she could make her June rent? (Gofundme takes out some small fees.)
Thank you.
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Oh here is the GoFundMe account: https://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp
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Max wrote:
Yes, Max, that sums it up. Many NeoCalvinists could use a round of rabies shots!
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Paula Rice wrote:
I did not think of that. Is SGL still governed by SGC? The whole thing surrounding Mahaney’s flight from Maryland is just really stinky.
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Muff Potter wrote:
That sounds about right. I have to confess that there were times when I was in that frame of mind as well.
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JYJames wrote:
To restore truth that the church has lost. Only reformed theology is truth. Orthodoxy demands that Calvinism be the default belief and practice for all of Christendom. That’s the way these folks think; that’s the mission of the new reformation.
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JYJames wrote:
Answer: money and power (sometimes sex too).
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Gram3 wrote:
I used too think that the church potlucks, which my 9Marxists pastors/elders, had said was like what early Christians did was lovely. Now in retrospect, I see it as a form of cultic “love bombing”. Hook people in with food, especially all of those engineers who work in Silicon Valley high tech, work long hours, earn a high salary and don’t eat good food. Hook in the graduate students from the elite Stanford University, and the undergraduates too, who have the potential to earn the big bucks. Have them bring their friends.
While we pewpons had perfectly fun times eating together, I know see it for the manipulation that it was by the leaders. Baiting the trap.
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Velour wrote:
That is very raw and very low.
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Max wrote:
And the faculty? They likely, in securing their salaries, will come on board the neo-Cal boat; or maybe there are some who will take the better way of seeking integrity in a setting that offers them respect FOR that integrity. How many folks who earn their money through ‘the Church’ are able to hold on to their integrity in the face of some of the strange new teachings being cooked up and served for their consumption? The lure of security and a pay check to feed the family must weigh heavily on the shoulders of such men.
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Velour wrote:
Sorry your experience has been dreadful in that regard. I remember the soup suppers of my childhood in Lutheranism with fondness. Quite a panoply of soups to choose from. And the Danish rye (still warm) from Sorensen’s bakery? The best!
Things were much simpler and less confused back then. No “love bombing”, no manipulation, just real folks enjoying fellowship, good soup, and good bread.
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Muff Potter wrote:
Thanks.
Glad you had fond memories of your church suppers.
I just think that there was so much that was sold to us at my former NeoCalvinist church as “Biblical” (including the meals which the pastors/elders told us were “Biblical”) that was manipulative love-bombing.
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okrapod wrote:
I think I read somewhere awhile back that infant baptism was a big thing in olden-olden times because of the infant mortality rate. It was considered a seal of approval of sorts, so that their little souls would not be cast into hell on account of Adam’s imputed guilt.
Legend? Folklore? What’s the real skivvy on this?
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Gram3 wrote:
As far as I know it is, Gram. I wonder how many men SGC sent to T4G to hear and support the preaching of their former president? :)-
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JYJames wrote:
Celia wrote:
I hope they all close their wallets and don’t donate any money. If they have left money to any churches, I hope they change their estate plans as well and leave out these churches.
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^Sorry. It has a quote to JY James up there. It’ only supposed to be Celia.
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JYJames wrote:
Many of the church leaders doing the indoctrinating are low and raw. They are ruthless.
Scandal after scandal. Church implosions. Abuses all over, all kinds. Damaged Christians and lives. More, sadly, to come in the years to come.
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Christiane wrote:
Not offended. Just curious as you don’t do it with everyone but always when responding to me. I thought perhaps it was my ADD coming out and you had to get my attention. :o)
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Velour wrote:
And thanks go to you as well. I go back far enough to remember when Lutheran pastors still wore the Cassock on high holy days. You couldn’t tell Pastor Sorensen from Father Doyle the Jesuit on high holy days.
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Muff Potter wrote:
Ahhh, nice.
I really am glad to be out of that NeoCalvinist mess. Just hateful. So petty and small-minded. I know Christians of all different denominitions (Eastern Orthodox Christians – Russian, Greek, etc; Catholics; Lutherans; Anglicans. I am so sick and tired of the NeoCalvinists saying that anyone not like them is destined for Hell and “not a real Christian” and “doesn’t have a ‘true’ understanding of Jesus”.
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Muff Potter wrote:
Here’s one website from the Russian Orthodox Christians who explain their view
on the importance of infant baptism:
http://3saints.com/baptism.html
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I thought perhaps it was my ADD coming out and you had to get my attention. :o)
Hi Lydia, there’s nothing wrong with your attention and I often capitalize the names of others I respond to . . . good to see you working here to help the Deebs
BTW, I think Debbie Kaufman often takes very courageous stands over on SBCvoices and I respect her bravery in the face of much criticism from the powers-that-be. There, I know she is a voice for good. Doctrinally, we don’t see eye to eye, but I think Debbie’s heart is in the right place up against some of the important issues (challenging misogyny in the Church, disciplining babies with corporal punishment, Islamophobia, homophobia, etc.) She is often criticized by David Miller, the administrator. She’s not intimidated by criticism, no. I’m proud of her.
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@ Celia:
Oops, missed this earlier. I don’t know about SWBTS. On one hand, the Neo Cals have been in your face bold with some horrible things and gotten by with it. So nothing surprises me. They literally laugh at a joke by Mohler aimed at victims of child molestation who dare tell their stories online.
On the other hand, Patterson is speaking at some TGC conference. And his brother in law, Kelly, (also older) is Prez of NOBTS.
I think it is probably inevitable. What Mohler wants, Mohler gets.
If anything really changes at this point, it will be because autonomous churches withhold funds. And I think apathy works against that happening. Although the big names were not giving much anyway. Like Platt and others. Yet they reap power and position. That equation is untenable.
As an example, I used to pay attention to CP giving in KY. When Ezell was pastir of Highview, CP giving was very low. (Mohler taught there). I would look at rural churches under 100 members who gave 3-5x more than the cosmopolitan Highview!
Yet Highview had the biggies.Ezell, Mohler, Russ Moore, and some local celebs and politicians. That just says it all to me. Platt church was even worse.
The people running the show were never really committed to the reason for the SBC’s existence. It’s about something else not good.
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Velour wrote:
Can’t even wrap my head around this.
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JYJames wrote:
I’m glad for you that it seems you haven’t experienced these abusive leaders. But they are spreading like cancer, including in NeoCalvinism. And they are wicked and evil men.
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@ Christiane:
Debbie was a Calvinista before anyone coined that phrase. She goes insane against anyone who criticizes Calvinism. It’s all liars and haters. She probably agrees with more at SBC Voices than she agrees with what goes on here.
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@ Lydia:
I know they didn’t give money when people not like them were in charge but I’ve been assuming they’ve been a little more supportive now that they know the Calvinists are in charge. The vitriol against “anti Calvinists” at SBC Voices seems to be increasing. Every time Rick Patrick posts over there they go insane. I’m wondering if some of his questions are starting to cause some issues.
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Velour wrote:
“Most cults are started so the cult leader can (1) get rich, (2) get laid, or (3) both. But the Moonies are different, and a lot more dangerous — Moon has been after political power from the beginning.”
— My old Dungeonmaster, in a post-game parking lot get-together
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I’m thinking the rise of neo Calvinism is due to
– Christianity no longer being a dominant voice in wider society
– secular society has continually rejected attempts at political influence (you don’t hear anything of the Moral Majority or Christian Coalition anymore).
Fundamentalist Christians want someone to tell them what to do, take them back to a golden age that never was. Gays back in the closet, women back in the kitchen, everyone back in their racial stereotypes.
Calvinism seems to be a ” we’ll take our toys & go home” sort of attitude.
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Mortification of Spin drives a coach and horses through the New Calvinists’ argument for the Eternal Subordination of the Son!
http://www.mortificationofspin.org/node/40032?utm_source=Mortification+of+Spin&utm_campaign=18864180f3-Mortification+of+Spin+combined&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8878352885-18864180f3-119263361#.V1Fkv5B4WrU
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K.D. wrote:
I will try, but (a) this morning I am going to be tied up with an awards ceremony at the school and (b) I don’t know where to start looking for links. I will however try to find something after I do all my g’mother duties this AM.
Here is how I remember it and maybe you can find the information. It had to do with the appointment of missionaries by the IMB. Apparently some of the appointees had originally been baptized by some other denom than SBC-some by immersion and some not. So the question is who needs to be re-baptized. They were requiring immersion for those who had not been immersed, and the question arose well what about those who were duly dunked but in some church that thought baptism was perhaps necessary for salvation or else thought some other idea that was not SBC idea. So the emphasis was on doctrine, not just procedure, and the emphasis was on the denom, not the guy doing the baptism. Then IIRC the issue was what if the actual person doing the baptism had some unapproved ideas at the time, regardless of what denom the baptizing church was with. And somebody said how would anybody know what somebody else thought at the time of the baptism, especially some little kid getting baptized who was perhaps supposed to furnish that information??? or not????
Now, I don’t have any idea who all said what. Of those who spoke to the issue I do not know how many were actually making decisions for the IMB vs how many were just pontificating about the issue.
That is how I remember it. If that information is incorrect then I plead senility.
My thought was: how did I ever get involved with this chicken outfit?
Good luck with the hunt. Please post the link(s) if you find something. It was a while back–back when I still had some vague hopes for both SBC and IMB.
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@ lowlandseer:
Thanks for sharing that link!
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Jack wrote:
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Lydia wrote:
I am not a Calvinist. My Calvinist friends tell me that I am not a Calvinist.
What in your thinking is the thing that one must or must not believe to not be a Calvinist.
My thinking on this is that there are a lot of shared convictions on certain issues that draw people together, even though there may be disagreement on some theological points in a particular system – Calvinism or some other system.
Is Calvinism in your discussion really more of a cultural commitment than a theological one?
When I think of Calvinism in the SBC, I think of the Founders group, and I know that I would not be part of that group. I like them as people and share some common commitments with them, but not their Calvinistic system.
What theological points must a person reject in order to not be a Calvinist?
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@ Christiane:
Hi JACK,
That ‘obedience’ emphasis … do they specify anything about obeying your conscience, or is it obedience to their ‘authority’ ?
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Paula Rice wrote:
Bingo!
I do not see how the SBC can let this stand and still follow the Baptist Faith and Message and the SBC Constitution. I believe this will eventually come to a head. Just how and when, I cannot say.
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Gram3 wrote:
Yes. Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville, according to its website, is part of Sovereign Grace Churches (formerly SGM). Sovereign Grace Churches has a website that explains how a church becomes a member of SGC, and it includes commitment to a Presbyterian form of government, not autonomy.
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@ okrapod:
Maybe this will help. Wade Burleson wrote a post on some of this in 2005.
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2005/12/old-imb-policies-compared-to-new-imb.html?m=1
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@ Anonymous:
What about James MacDonald. Harvest? He actually wrote that congregational polity is from Satan. He also was asked to preach at SBC pastors conference
Yes, he got lots of pushback so then said, “sorry” but considering that, horrible corruption despite being asked by the Neo Cals to advise on GP, how did his churches pass the polity smell test for SBC? Why are these charlatans fleeing to the protection of Mohlers SBC?
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SBC has a great dental plan. Seriously. My mom’s church is SBC, without having “Baptist” anywhere on the building, because of insurance plans, and retirement, I think. Follow the money.
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lowlandseer wrote:
This is an excellent article. Thanks for sharing it.
The best part of the article, in my opinion, is the rejection of the idea of relations within the Trinity setting the pattern for human relations. I see no warrant for that.
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I heard a statistic the other day, that half of all church leaders serving today came to Christ between the years of 1968 and 1972. Which means those were pivotal years. But it also means that a lot of these guys are approaching retirement age. That could explain a few things.
Can’t source that Stat, by the way. If I gave time, I’ll try.
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@ Anonymous:
Nice try. You are protected here so I can’t show what a clever brain gamer you are.
This is the same tired old game that’s been played for years by the more clever of that movement. So what difference does doctrinal minutia make when it is really about power and authority….such claim isn’t power and authority… when explained by the clever in shadows.
Why anonymous for a lofty person like you who is protected?
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Lydia wrote:
I am thoroughly depressed over MacDonald’s entry into the SBC and the prominence he has.
Makes me yearn for Wiley Drake’s continued presence.
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@ Anonymous:
Then be a man since such men are actually listened to in the SBC and speak up. You know Mohler. Go public.
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@ Celia:
That is my experience.
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@ Celia:
He is the only non Cal who disagrees they will allow to comment, it seems. I keep hearing about others who are banned. Of course, I was banned long ago.
But first, I recieved a very creepy email from Miller trying to convince me of something JD Hall was pushing a few years earlier that was totally bonkers about Peter Lumpkins. My guess is they are used to thinking women are stupid and that sort of rumor works for them in their bubble. It really is creepy that grown men in ministry circles behave this way.
I don’t interact with these guys on email. I just say thanks for the info. I want nothing to do with them anymore. These are not the sort of people you reconcile with. Their normal is deception and who can trust that?
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@ lowlandseer:
Hey, thanks for this! I’m going over there right now and checking this out. Plus, I’m going to make note of the saying “drives a coach and horses through” because I’m not sure I’ve heard that before. I like the visual it creates!
The ESS is a mess! It’s used as the theological basis for complementarianism, and in the words of Gilbert Bilezikian, it’s “hermeneutical bungee jumping”!
In my opinion the ESS isn’t a theological basis for anything other than the live-in relationship between Neo-cals and Catholics. I used to wonder how guys like Driscoll and Mahaney, both RCC, jumped the shark. They used a bungee cord!
(the video of Driscoll interviewing Wayne and Margaret Grudem has apparently exited the internet)
http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/40/40-1/40-1-pp057-068_JETS.pdf
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@ Celia:
@ Anonymous:
Aimee is trying real hard but scared to death her arguments will promote mutuality so her comp Doctrine becomes the default theme, sadly.
Perhaps she needs to study more about mutual submission and stop ignoring Eph 5:21, as one example
For another view on the serious problems with ESS check out Kevin Giles. He takes on Ware with a scholarly approach.
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@ Lydia:
Oops, how did that happen? That response was to lowlander.
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lowlandseer wrote:
Thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing this! I have not check MOS this week yet. This summarizes my problem with the “eternal subordination of the Son”: it is a heresy and stands in opposition to the historical orthodox teaching of the Church.
Clearly, heresy is taking root in the SBC/Neo Cal churches: the eternal subordination of the Son is a Christological heresy, and the leaders of the Neo Cals (Mohler, Dever, et al) are adding to the Gospel (see Galatians 1:6-8, anathema) by adding requirements such as church covenants, tithing, etc., to the simplicity of salvation. I am reminded of Jesus’ words in Matthew 23:23-26:
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Lydia wrote:
I think this was actually a (male) guest writer?
He did a good job talking about the trinity, except I don’t see egalitarians at all trying to redefine it, so that seemed like an unnecessary swipe. And he felt the need to claim complementarianismistism while acknowledging that the current version of it is going insane.
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@ Lydia:
Miller has never allowed a woman to disagree with him or any of the fanbois at Voices. If a woman is allowed to post there it’s because she agrees enough with him mostly and on the really important things like Calvinism. He really comes off as someone on the verge of mental collapse.
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Anonymous wrote:
The ease of entry of both MacDonald and Mahaney into SBC without a challenge are clear signs that a once-great non-Calvinist denomination has surrendered to the reformed movement.
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@ Lea:
Ah! Thank you. I was having hard time deciphering what was written by whom.
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@ Lea:
There is a reason for that and why it fails. In the early ESS resurgence days the doctrine was mapped to patriarchy and how the Trinity taught us the “truth” of roles and submission hierarchy.
It eventually became the default position in the comp world thanks to Grudem, Piper, Ware, Burk (used to be editor of CBMW) and others.
Comps fear nothing more than looking like they are affirming mutuality. That is even a bigger sin than tampering with the Trinity.
Giles goes through it all in both his books. I was blessed to find them. ESS just blew my mind. I could not believe such a thing was taught in a Baptist Seminary.
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@ Celia:
It truly is sad the way women are treated in the SBC. Before the CR women were given the opportunity to do what they are “biblically” not allowed now. I am not even sure the current administration would allow someone like Lottie Moon to be a missionary.
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Over at Aimee’s site, she has an article a few weeks ago about sunday school and whether women can teach it. Apparently Todd doesn’t think so.
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Lydia wrote:
Liability.
Or Plausible Deniability for his Milords.
Whispering/smear campaigns are always Anonymous or a generic “Concerned People”.
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Lydia wrote:
A lot of this stuff I’m reading blows my mind. I feel like my religion is being hijacked by the kind of cultish people who should be living in a compound. Why are women putting up with this?
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Paula Rice wrote:
Eternal Subordination of the Son (ESS) is NOT a Catholic doctrine, I can assure you.
ESS attacks the Catholic understanding of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. I would say ESS is a fairly modern invention of fundamentalist-patriarchists and has no other purpose than to shore up their teaching of ‘submission’ of wives to their husbands. It’s a shame they have tried to mess with the orthodox doctrine of the Holy Trinity, but in the end, it works out that their ESS proposals further discredit their ‘submission’ teachings that demean the dignity not only of women, but also of the men who practice patriarchy and make themselves ‘gods’ in a religion that places ‘manhood’ as receiving some kind of divine right.
No, PAULA RICE, Catholic teaching does NOT embrace ESS. Never has. Never will. It was the early Councils of the Catholic Church that defined and defended the doctrine of the Holy Trinity against a lot of heresy, in fact.
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Lea wrote:
You feel like that because that is just what is happening…
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Lea wrote:
Lol! Mohler as Warren Jeffs.
Why do young women raised in America convert to Islam and start covering?
Ever since the advent of the self help genre, people are actually drawn to rules, roles and formulas they don’t see society promoting. And there are plenty of charlatans and cultists quite willing to oblige.
This is one reason I harp on personal responsibility, free will and independent thinking. People are selling off their most prized possession: themselves.
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@ mot:
The SBC I remember was a woman couldn’t be Pastor but she did everything else in the church and men were encouraged to get with the program and help out at home and with kids etc. None of this nonsense of “women’s work vs men’s work” It was “complementarian” lite. Of course those were the days when Baptist didn’t smoke, drink, dance or have private prayer language. Also a man wouldn’t be considered qualified to be the head Pastor until he’d put in some years as youth minister or some associate minister position. Not like today where these kids come out of seminary and believe themselves to be qualified to boss around people old enough to be their grandparents. I could go on a rant about how things used to be.
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Celia wrote:
I feel the same way and I’m not that old. You should read this MoS sunday school article and all the effort and twists and turns put into trying to decide what women can and can’t do on sunday school. Do you really think Jesus would be worried about such things? Such nonsense to me.
http://www.mortificationofspin.org/mos/housewife-theologian/what-is-sunday-school-what-does-it-appear-to-be-and-who-can-teach-it#.V1GF5jZf3yA
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@ Lea:
I can’t figure out why people think MOS has anything to teach them after the Truman/Mahaney debacle, Pruitts slander accusations here and their views on women. It is strange.
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@ Lea:
God gave us the 10 Commandments to show us that He values Himself and us!
https://paulspassingthoughts.com/2016/05/25/gods-acknowledgment-of-self-and-the-full-circle-of-the-ten-commandments/
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Burwell wrote:
Their mantra is “ESS has *always* been the orthodox teaching of the Church.” Millard Erickson does a good job refuting that claim, IMO.
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Lea wrote:
I have said before that women in bondage to New Calvinism may very well prove to be the Achilles heel that brings the movement to a halt. When NC “girls” (that’s what Chandler calls his female members) rise up en masse, proclaim “Wait just a darn minute here!”, and drag their sorry husbands/boy friends out of the mess, we might just see this thing end. It will take some strong girls to make that stand, to challenge the patriarchy of New Calvinism and be willing to experience shunning and excommunication. But Jesus will come looking for them.
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Lydia wrote:
I bop over to aimee’s when it’s linked out of curiosity I guess, but she frustrates me.
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Max wrote:
I think it shows that the SBC leadership has succeeded in making the ability to garner a following *the* criteria for acceptance. The *only* think that disqualifies a Great Man from leadership is sexual misconduct that has been discovered. Honestly I think that the lust for power is behind all of this, and Calvinism is a more hospitable framework for that right now among Baptists, so that is their messaging. Founders are true 1689 believers, but the others I think are more pragmatic.
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“““And how, indeed, hath He any greater than Himself Who is one with the Father in Godhead? Where there is unity, there is no dissimilarity, whereas between greater and less there is a distinction. The teaching, therefore, of the instance from Scripture before us, with regard to the Father and the Son, is that neither is the Father greater, nor hath the Son any that is above Him, inasmuch as in Father and Son there is no difference of Godhead parting them, but one majesty.” (St. Ambrose of Milan, 4th Century A.D.)
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@ Lea:
From the article:
” However, Todd isn’t so much looking for an ordained person, or someone who may be called to ordination in the future. He wants someone who is equipped to teach and who is a man, as to not cause confusion.”
Women cause confusion?
The rest is bizarre as in, ‘the problem of sunday school in the same building as the worship’. Huh? Since when do buildings have spiritual and gender significance? Is there sacred furniture, too?
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Gram3 wrote:
So the Great Men get away with spiritual adultery instead.
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Lydia wrote:
Me, too. Jaw dropped and eyes became saucers. Seriously? The Trinity is a social hierarchy?
Grudem, Ware, Piper and the other Usual Suspects are obsessed with hierarchy, and *nothing* is beyond being used as a means toward that end. As you and I have discussed before, the essential and eternal subordination of women to men cannot be found in the texts and their formulation of “equal in dignity, value, and worth” cannot be squared with “eternally ordained to be subordinate.” So they have to re-write the Doctrine of God in order to try to make sense out of nonsense.
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@ Lea:
I do too. It seems they are trying to distance themselves from the YRR stream if Calvinism but it would help if Trueman just came clean and admitted his part in exonerating Mahaney as fit for ministry. That was a huge deal at the time that just piled on the survivors of that cult.
It did not help Todd came here and accused some of slander. Frankly, they are not that different in behavior than the typical YRR I am surrounded by. Same stuff. Same arrogance.
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Lydia wrote:
Apparently this is because of ‘authority’. If you just accept that true authority rests with god, not man, you don’t have these problems.
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Lydia wrote:
It really does sound very superstitious when you get past the Whaaaaattt??? reaction. They have constructed a rule-based doctrine where God is offended by the presence of a woman in the holy spaces. We are supposed to stay in the Court of the Women where we belong so as not to pollute the “worship” environment. OK, that is what they would really *like* to be the case, but they cannot make that happen in our culture. So the next best option is to keep defining and re-defining what is OK for women to do until they become ridiculous. I wonder what the magic boundary is.
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@ Lea:
I laugh at the disconnect some of these women have. Beth Moore is a heretic because she teaches and men can go to her conferences are whatever so she’s “assumed authority” over men. Don’t these women realize that men can wander into any ol’ public blog on the internet and read what women are writing? How is that different than what Moore is doing? Women can teach on the internet and proclaim they only teach to women but a woman can’t teach at a conference because men who don’t know any better might go and listen to a woman teaching.
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Gram3 wrote:
Yes. And it sounds very stupid when you try to make it logical. Like, here woman teacher, let’s call your talk a ‘testimony’ instead of sermon and let’s put you behind a table instead of a lectern. And woman childrens pastor, let’s call you ‘director’ instead.
I think that’s where Aimee loses me, I think she tries to talk to the men like Todd in a way that rationalizes for them and argues with them using their premises of authority when I want her to say is simply that ‘This is STUPID’. Heh. And then all of the comments on this article were men jumping in and saying ‘oh but women can’t teach blahblahblah’.
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Gram3 wrote:
Gram3, thanks for calling attention to that. I used Erickson’s Christian Theology in a course and found it very readable. I just peeked at his book Who’s Tampering with the Trinity? over at Amazon and it looks good too.
http://www.amazon.com/Whos-Tampering-Trinity-Assessment-Subordination/dp/0825425891
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Lea wrote:
I think some women put up with this because they agree with the pastor and other women who disagree with the pastor may have a weak faith believing that they might be wrong and the pastor is correct. I think the same women who disagree with the pastor were at a supermarket and given poor service wouldn’t think twice before complaining to customer service.
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@ Gram3:
Yes. The current Holy Place is scripture and the church building. Never mind Jesus rebuking the temple.
I wonder if women can teach other women there? They can deceive their own kind (wink). Oh, and children. I wonder what the cut off age for women teaching boys and it becoming sin time?
I am not sure what denomination they are but the convo on this blog brought out that within their Ecclesiastical judicial process (oh my) women can be witnesses but not judges.
(Even though Paul says they will judge the angels. Wait! That must mean the angels are all female! :o)
My sinful grandmother, grad of Moody back when they welcomed women ministers, taught mixed classes for decades. Her specialty was Romans. My mom and aunts grew up in that world and knew no different. It was just not a big deal. It was about gifting, not gender.
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Lea wrote:
She is kind of in a pickle. On the one hand, she clearly affirms the idea of a “ministerial office” in the church which must be occupied by a male. I need to read her own blog some to find how she gets to that conclusion if it is other than the standard PCA/OPC route. On the other hand she realizes that God has gifted women to teach in the Church. That can create some significant cognitive dissonance. It will be interesting to follow the thought processes of some of these bright, young women who are wading into the water of questioning what has not been questioned, at least by women.
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@ Ted:
I have read it multiple times. I recommend reading it along with Ware’s Father, Son and Holy Spirit to see how their arguments and references compare.
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@ Celia:
LifeWay (B&H) and Moore made a fortune together. Moore has been a huge draw for LifeWay stores for years. She was churning out book after book, study after study for a while there. Strike while marketing niche was hot. She was doing everything down to making contemplative prayer tapes. If it had her picture on it. it sold.
People scalped tickets for her appearances. Her security detail is worthy of a rock star. I always wonder about that. People who teach others to believe in God’s protection yet buy it for themselves.
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Lea wrote:
Well, you know, that lectern/pulpit is holy ground. I’m sure you have heard how important it is to be at church on Sunday morning to hear the preaching of the man of god . . .
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@ Lydia:
Btw: my first and last experience with any Moore study was long ago. I just could not take it. A contemplation question at the end of one study was something like this, “what sort of gift would you take to a baby shower for Sarah?”
Arghhh!
But she was a hot ticket in the seeker mega world in those days. People would drive for hours and stand in line to attend. She would sell out a 10 thou seat venue every time.
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Wow. Just scanned through the Gospel Project’s Twitter account. While their curriculum “examines how all Scripture gives testimony to Jesus Christ”, Christ is frequently supplanted by scripture in their tweets:
Today: “The Bible is the inspired Word from God and is the ultimate standard of authority for the Christian.”
May 28: “From generation to generation, God’s Word is clear and His Word is to be received with joy and gladness.”
May 25: “Our churches must be built on and sustained by the Word of God.”
May 25: “Without Scripture, we would not know what God is like or how we can live in relationship with Him.”
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Lydia wrote:
HAHA! Are you serious?
Here’s the thing. I don’t need the church to tell me how to be a woman, or about etiquette, or hospitality. I have parents for that. I had grandparents for that. There may be people who didn’t learn these things and who want to learn, and if somebody wants to give an Emily post class for their benefit that’s great, but it’s not a bible study.
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Lydia wrote:
People LOVE some Beth Moore. I don’t really read that sort of thing, so I never got it. I might have gotten one of her or Joyce Meyers books as a gift, but didn’t read them.
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FW Rez wrote:
This one is just flat out wrong. According to scripture! Wish I could remember the exact verse(s). Ahhhh.
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Jack wrote:
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@ Christiane:
From the material, I got the impression that you were stay within the narrow confines of the guides (both learner & leader). That the study material is universally ‘christian’. That’s the impression of “obey” that I got.
I suppose some religious instruction is like this but if I were to join a specific denomination then the belief would be spelled out for me not billed as universally ‘christian’.
For example, I was raised Christian & never heard of ‘special’ revelation.
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Lea wrote:
No, it’s all about them, Jesus has little to do with their decisions and heaven forbid you question them on it….I found that out when I was banned from SBC Today.
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Lea wrote:
John 5:31+
? Is that it?
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Celia wrote:
That reminds me of Piper’s ridiculous logic about men reading theology books wriiten by women. I don’t remember the specifics since it was so absurd.
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@ FW Rez:
Did no one tell them in Seminary the “Word of God” is Jesus Christ?
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Gram3 wrote:
Emphasis on HAS BEEN DISCOVERED.
“If nobody knows of my sin, I Am Not Shamed. I Have Not REALLY Sinned.”
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Lydia wrote:
In SBTS, the REAL Word of God is Calvin’s Institutes.
“And the Bible, insofar as it is translated correctly.” — Joseph Smith
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Lea wrote:
Rom 1:20
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Lydia wrote:
Never heard that used in my time in seminary….
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Lydia wrote:
There seems to be some conflating going on.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Hence the issue with making scripture the ultimate authority. Too often is not what scripture says that is considered authoritative, but what someone says it says.
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@ K.D.:
K.D.
I also offered to be banned and they banned me. I stand by everything I said because I believe it is the truth. The CR destroyed the SBC.
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@ Burwell:
Liked! 🙂
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mot wrote:
And Mot, we’re better off…and you are correct, the CR destroyed the SBC…
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Lea wrote:
Yes, I too found his remark curious. The only thing I could think of was he was referring to egalitarian as a whole, without having researched the many distinctives that exist within the broad scope of “Egalitarianism.”
Confusing.
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Bridget wrote:
Bridget wrote:
That’s definitely one I was thinking of…there are more I think but that one seems to get ignored a lot.
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@ K.D.:
K.D.
Rick Patrick and the others want to stick their heads in the sand and look at where it is getting them. If Rick goes to the 2016 SBC Convention he us wasting his time and money–the Calvinist will win everything of value that is left of the SBC.
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FW Rez wrote:
Years ago within SBC ranks there was a debate about ultimate authority. Did it rest in Jesus or the Word? I had to chuckle when I first heard that, since Jesus is the Word! Within SBC ranks following revision of the Baptist Faith & Message in 2000, there has been a gradual shift away from a Christocentric criterion for interpretation of Scripture. Calvinists mistrust personal Christian experience in which the indwelling Christ teaches believers through the Holy Spirit (priesthood of the believer, soul competency) … that’s a major reason why I mistrust them! The Bible, and man’s interpretation of it, should never be elevated above Jesus! He is Lord of the Bible! There is way too much emphasis on Calvin and his systematic theology of the Doctrines of Grace in reformed ranks, to the point of diminishing the very person and ministry of Christ! If you listen closely to New Calvinist sermons, you will hear a lot about “God”, very little about Jesus, and hardly a mention of the Holy Spirit.
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In my opinion the ESS isn’t a theological basis for anything other than the live-in relationship between Neo-cals and Catholics.
Huh? Can you explain? I have never heard anything remotely approaching ESS preached in the Catholic Church. Au contraire, as Christiane points out with her quote from St Ambrose, we are staunch Trinitarians.
And, from what I understand, Neo-Cals cannot stand Catholics or Catholicism. That includes Neo-Cals who used to be Catholic.
I am at a loss here. How do people get such weird ideas about what we believe?
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@ Christiane:
Come back and talk to me about this when the Catholic Church is no longer a male hierarchy, which is exactly what the ESS was devised to support.
I said the ESS provides the substructure for the live-in relationship between Catholics and Neo-cals because of the similarity they share between them in how they structure what they both call “church.” It’s not a marriage marriage, but over time it’s become, shall we say, a common law.
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Lydia wrote:
Why not? Apparently, there’s such a thing as “sacred testosterone”. Or something like that… 😉
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@ Serving Kids In Japan:
Of course! I forgot about “sanctified testosterone” taught at T$G.
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@ Paula Rice:
I have never heard of Catholics using ESS to justify male/top down hierarchy. I don’t think they needed it. Male hierarchy is their system.
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mot wrote:
The Neo Cal takeover was made possible by the CR.
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Lydia wrote:
“Satan hates testosterone. You can’t blame him – after all, he’s seen it used to crush his head.” (Owen Strachan)
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Paula Rice wrote:
IIRC, early on in the 70’s there were egalitarians who grounded the idea of equality in the Trinity or at least tried to use the Trinity to fend off objections to egalitarianism in the mirror image of what Female Subordinationists do nowadays. I do not have a reference for that and am going off memory (!) but I believe that is what they are talking about when they say that egalitarians have misused the intra-Trinitarian relationships to support egalitarianism. IMO neither side has a good argument on that ground.
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Paula Rice wrote:
I’m not Catholic, so I’m not an expert, but I think they justify their all-male hierarchy by saying that Christ had only male apostles (all Jewish too, so…).
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Lydia wrote:
That should be obvious to all at this point. Once thought to be nothing more than a “conspiracy theory” in the blogosphere, the cat is out of the bag now and the New Calvinists are entrenched. The “Conservative” Resurgence opened the door for The “Calvinist” Resurgence.
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Too often is not what scripture says that is considered authoritative, but what someone says it says.
I interpret. You interpret. All God’s chillun interpret.
That’s one YUGE problem I have with the Calvinist insistence on the “perspicuity” of Scripture. ***Everyone*** refracts Scripture through his or her own interpretive lens. And yeah, that includes The Elect. (Which is why those Calvinist Presbies have been nicknamed the Split Ps. If the Bible’s so “perspicuous,” why do even the Elite Elect disagree about what it means?)
I was once talking with a close friend who had left Catholicism for fundamentalism. She was going on and on about how Scripture Plain & Simple is all one needs, period. I responded that there’s no such thing as Scripture Plain & Simple. *Everyone* interprets! So, why should I trust what her preacher said about this or that verse OVER what anyone else said?
Anyway, I mentioned the Apostolic Fathers, some of whom knew the apostles personally (e.g., Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome). I said to my friend: “Who would you rather trust: the ancient Fathers who knew the apostles personally OR some preacher-dude 2,000 years removed from the Primitive Church?”
She answered: “Neither. I just trust the Bible.”
At that point I think I started banging my head against the nearest wall.
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Gram3 wrote:
Before my time, then. It doesn’t seem to be common now, I think.
But you know, humans aren’t god or the trinity. Half the problem with these guys is that they take metaphors in the bible WAY too seriously. Christ is not literally married to the church, men are not literally Christ…maybe they should take a lit class before they get to theology.
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Lydia wrote:
I think that the male priesthood in the RCC is based on the OT priesthood which was exclusively male. Therefore, ESS is unnecessary for the RCC. For evangelicals it is another story since we do not have priests.
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@PaulaRice, I second what Chriatiane said in a previous thread. If you want to bash the Catholic Church, fine. But please, I beg you, bash it based on what it actually teaches. And to find out what it actually teaches, read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. That is the authoritative source for Catholic Teaching. Hearsay, rumors, old wives’ tales, and anti-Catholic websites are all irrelevant. The Catechism is where you will find what we believe. Thank you!!
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Lea wrote:
Yes, along with some courses in logic. We can credit George Knight III with a lot of this weird concretization of spiritual metaphors. He is the inventor of ESS, as far as I have been able to trace. When you actually stop to think about what they are saying and the implications, you can see how contrived it is. But most people are cowed by the “liberal” accusation or the “Biblical” assertion impersonating an argument.
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__
Celia wrote:
Bingo!
—
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Lydia wrote:
And the ” Trads” don’t want to admit that they played right into the Neo-Cal’s hands…
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Election® : “The Mission Of God?”
hmmm…
Deb,
hey,
Make no mastake, Lifeway’s ‘The Gospel Project’® material is apparently a very unique optimum combination of calvinista ‘stealthy doctrinal craft’ (R) projecting itself in steady, consistent progression out onto Jesus Christ’s mission for His church.
So what else is new?
huh?
All Calvinist faithfully subscribe to John Calvin’s “Institutes Of The Christian Religion” , right?
What?
That ‘valuable’ resource is also presently available online for free. [1]
(There appears to be no need to sign-up for anything, one can just download it and read it today!)
Please remember: “Calvinism is Christianity”… [2]
hahahahahaha
ATB
Sopy
__
[1] http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.toc.html
[2] quote from Charles Spurgeon.
—
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For evangelicals it is another story since we do not have priests.
Thank you, Gram3! That is a crucial point. Priests are not the same thing as Protestant ministers. What Protestant ministers do (preaching and teaching) can be done by any lay Catholic. And is done by many. Catholic women (including nuns) teach both men and women all the time. Catholic women lead Bible studies for both sexes. No one bats an eye.
Some of the strongest, gutsiest women I know are nuns. If you gave them this bunk about complementarianism, they’d bite your head off. 😉
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Max wrote:
If not, it will be the kids who grow up in it.
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Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
They allegedly get this stuff from the Bible. They swear up and down that this is what “the Bible teaches”.
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Joe2 wrote:
Unless, of course, for example, the store manager were to explain to the women the price of the item available for purchase on his shelf was different from the price of the same item that was advertised at a lower price in the paper, which was what the women had come in to complain about.
All the store manager needed to do was tell the women he had the authority to determine the value of the items in his store, and that what was advertised in the circular was irrelevant. “The items on my shelves,” he explained, “are considered male in value and their prices are set. One of the shelf items may be advertised at a lower price in the circular, but when that happens they become “female” and therefore subjugated to the value I place on them. So, you must purchase the item at the price listed on the shelf. There are no discounts.”
Then some of the women were like, “Oh! That explains it!” whereas others felt a little hoodwinked!
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Max wrote:
That parallels an article I read yesterday by Russell Dilday on BFM2k vs the 1963 version. Earlier I received push back about my objections that everyone on the Gospel Project board was complementarian. The point anonymous was making was valid since they had all signed off on the BFM2k. This, however, brought home the fact that the SBC is now a creed based denomination. This is where I have to agree with those in this thread contending that the CR killed the SBC. It is not that there are Calvanists and/or Complmentarians writing literature now but that there is a fundamental redefinition of what it means to be Baptist – sign on the dotted line or else.
Since we are on the subject of BFM2k, I would like to point out that it should not be considered inerrant and no one in their right theological mind would deem otherwise.
On a lighter note, while I have issues with BFM2k, I have always maintained that I would gladly sign it – if that is what my wife told me to do.
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FW Rez wrote:
Ha! Wouldn’t that be in direct violation of Article XVIII, therefore making your signature invalid???
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Berean Broadcast: “Da Blind Leading Da Blind, Perhaps?”
Deb,
hay,
I have no serious doubt on Lifeway’s intentions and its ongoing ability to provide Calvinist theologically ‘slanted’ literature to the mainstream Southern Baptist church.
This has been going on for some time now.
However, I seriously doubt the capability and the credibility of current mainstream Southern Baptist church ‘leaders’.
Jesus once said: “Every plant that My Heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by its roots.
Jesus also said: If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
(sadface)
So…Stay Tuned!
Da Gatez O’ Hell shall not prevail…
ATB
Sopy
—
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Paula Rice wrote:
I thought you would appreciate being informed about ESS not being a Catholic doctrine. There are a host of folks who pass on errors about my Church, and most of the time, I take a minute and let them know they had the wrong info. I think that is appreciated, if the people are honestly misinformed and are of good will.
Most people are of good will, I have found.
ESS is an offensive attack on the very orthodox Catholic doctrine of the Holy Trinity, PAULA. So I can confirm this for you with no qualms. Some years ago, I wanted to find out about my Southern Baptist grandmother’s denomination, so I went to Southern Baptists to do it. I started, with the grace of God, at Wade Burleson’s blog, and was helped tremendously by many good people there.
I recommend going to the ‘source’ for correct info, especially these days. It’s a good practice AND it is a respectful thing to do when interacting with people of faith from different traditions.
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Jack wrote:
That sounds accurate. NeoCalvinists started a take-over over the Southern Baptist denomination decades ago. This was their long-range plan.
It seems, however, like they are destroying the denomination as hundreds of thousands of even conservative Christians (and that includes older Christians, married couples, women) are fed up and leaving the church.
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Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
True, that. I was taught by nuns and trained as a teacher by nuns . . . those ladies don’t play. I owe a huge debt to their guidance and their good example.
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Nancy2 wrote:
Oops.
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Celia wrote:
Hmm. Maybe that is related to this:
Lea wrote:
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Lea wrote:
Yep! Judges chapter 4!
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FW Rez wrote:
They teach these things, then assert their own authority to define what the scriptures say, thereby trapping the unwary.
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Lydia wrote:
Mine too. One of her books was assigned to my women’s prayer group. Page after page of dull pabulum, then a sentence that said anyone who is not a Christian is a servant of Satan. I kept closing the book and reopening it to see if I was imagining things. Nope, nothing in there about Judaism, or theological changes after the Holocaust, or the elephant in the room: who passes muster as a Christian and who is woefully deceived. I think we were all just supposed to nod our well-coiffed ladylike heads.
I read the sentence out loud at our next meeting, and the book was quietly dropped from discussion. I’m still a bit steamed that we all paid money for it.
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Anonymous wrote:
Ha! And yes, for real!
Anonymous, I listened with interest to the introductory remarks Mahaney made at Capital Hill Baptist Church in the first five messages he gave there, starting in 2003 (there are eleven messages in all, the last of which was in 2011).
Knowing as I did as a former member of CLC, and with the understanding I had that Mahaney was not, nor ever intended to become a congregationalist (he’s Catholic), his attempt to maneuver and manipulate the congregation of CHBC was obvious and revealing. It’s textbook Mahaney.
You should listen! (search for “Mahaney”) http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/resources/sermons/
Hear for yourselves starting in 2003 (like I said, I didn’t go past 2006). Listen to how he butters them all up, insinuating himself among them, expressing his love, declaring himself an “honorary member,” and lastly sharing about how he attended one of the members meetings in which he claims to have participated in voting in a particular elder! I kid you not.
What is going on there?! Why had Mark Dever allowed Mahaney to have so much influence over his congregation?
Here’s my opinion and how that happened:
1. Mahaney turned to Dever and saw his opening. He knew if handed the ball, Mahaney could grab it and run all the way down the field, making big gains along the way.
2. Mahaney first buttered up Dever by flattering him, pretending he was open to learning from him, wishing to reform, acting like the student studying his master’s church.
3. Mahaney could do what he wanted as the Pope of SGM, but he knew Dever was constrained. The goal? Work the congregation of CHBC over so they’d trust Dever’s association with Mahaney, and not resist all the time Dever would soon be devoting to 9Marks, which Mahaney was invested in. (listen to all the flattery Mahaney pours on about Mark’s book)
4. Dever becomes the one to assemble all they key players in the formation of Together for the Gospel, something Mahaney could not do himself, so he passed the ball to Mark, who ran with his play into the endzone. Touchdown!
5. Together for the Go$pel launches in 2006 and Mahaney knew all along that it’d be a money-maker. That was the goal line. That was the whole plan behind what Mahaney was doing all along! He’s not interested in reform, in congregationalism, or in his ministry or his church being associated with the SBC! His singular goal has been “dishonest gain” (Titus 1:11). Mark Dever, Al Mohler and the SBC have simply been his willing stool pigeons, and the means to an end.
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This is a sincere question: Do Calvinists stop every five minutes to ask for forgiveness for their cold and carnal hearts? I know that I’m a sinner, but I get this vibe from these books, leaders, and believers that we’re all so deprived that we can’t make a decision about lunch without sinning.
Not only that, but do people like JD Greear, Al Mohler, Piper, Ligon, etc., really follow this? I listen to these people preach and I’m literally depressed afterward because I begin analyzing my life and start wondering what I’m not doing right. Is JD Greear depressed after he preaches because if he’s not, I don’t fully understand why he’s not.
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Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
As Deb posted on the other thread, the “whose denomination is worse” can take place in the Open Discussion thread (on the right of the page here).
It has no place here.
Thank you.
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Lydia wrote:
Thanks!
I understand you to say it’s about power and doctrine.
I get what you are saying. So if people are demonstrably not Calvinist, they still are Calvinist because they are in the inner circle.
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Lydia wrote:
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Lydia wrote:
It happened because you allow me to live in your head – rent free! 🙂
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Unepetiteanana wrote:
No. Because they are among “The Elect”.
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Unepetiteanana wrote:
It’s a good question, one I’ve wondered about before myself. Do these men depress themselves as much as they rain depression on their listeners?
I believe there is a reason for the mindset. They have traded the person of Christ for the rule of law. The newness of life we are called to is the life of Christ, not the death of law. The law brings sin and death (Romans 7-8). There is no blessing inherent in the law. Is the fruit of law any surprise then?
We are blessed and lifted up when we focus our attention on Christ, when we think on his attributes and all he has done for us. Focusing our attention on ourselves and the law brings only darkness.
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@ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
I’m going to need for you to use your imagination a little ok? I realize that when you think about the institution you serve, you do so in rigid terms. You are constrained to think according to the program, following doctrine and ideas as outlined in your catechism, so much so that’s it’s something you point other people to for answers because it’s set in stone, sealed by the Pope.
I get that. But I’m not Catholic. I don’t think from inside your box.
You’re going to have to accept this about me, and you’re going to need to use some imagination here when you see me say that the ESS is the substructure for the live-in relationship between Neo-cals and Catholics.
If it were a “legitimate” marriage (notice I put that word in quotes) then there would be unity and agreement between the two in every area including definitions of the Trinity.
There’s are differences, but I’m saying it’s like Complementarianism, where they are “separate but equal.” There are enough similarities, as I see it, in how they structure and define church, and in areas like male hierarchy, that I’d say it makes for a compatible living arrangement. I see a couple there – although different enough not to get “married” but alike enough to “live together.”
Thats my opinion, and I point to the examples of Mark Driscoll and CJ Mahaney – both Catholics who gravitated toward Neo-calvinism which they used to model their leadership and churches on – leadership that excluded themselves from accountability and correction like we see at the top levels of the RCC. And, as a pillar, they all use male hierarchy and Complementarianism to hold the whole thing up.
If this comparison offends you and, and you’re only interested here in criticizing churches other than your one true one, all I can suggest is that you either toughen up or ignore me.
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siteseer wrote:
This preaches!!
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@ Paula Rice:
Paula, when people try to help clear up misinformation, they are ALWAYS coming from a position of strength. You did not know this?
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Lydia wrote:
Hello. Can you point me to the response that was meant for me? (Smileyface- I don’t know how to get the emos to work!)
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Paula Rice wrote:
I don’t think Driscoll’s behavior and Mahaney’s has anything to do with the fact that might have been raised as Catholics. Both men had very troubled backgrounds.
There’s a common thread for many of them: They all had abusive fathers, alcoholic fathers, or absent fathers. They didn’t have good role models for being a man, seem insecure, and are grasping at straws of manhood and do a lot of posturing.
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@ Christiane:
You’d have to begin by first understanding what I was saying in order to work in clearing up any misinformation. You’re not understanding me. That’s not my problem. If you don’t agree with me, just ignore me and move on.
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@ Paula Rice:
Paula,
I think you’re getting a bit rude now.
In any case your logic is wrong:
1) NeoCals made up ESS to justify their complementarian position.
2) The Catholic Church has something like complementarianism going on (male hierarchy, anyway).
3) Therefore the Catholic Church believes in ESS.
Bzzzt – wrong. This is bogus logic.
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Christiane wrote:
I remember some mean nuns and drunk priests. Not all peaches from my perspective.
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@ roebuck:
Yep!
Catholicism has *nothing* to do with ESS. ESS is considered a heresy by all mainstream denominations. Based on the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Crred (sometimes rendered as “statement”). The latter is very clear that there is no hierarchy within the Trinity, that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal.
Some research on church history could save a lot of wasted time, spilled ink (or pixels) and unnecessary debates.
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@ Velour:
Great. That’s your opinion. But your opinion doesn’t serve as the basis for my opinions or my beliefs. So deal with that and back off. You don’t see me trying to force you to agree with me, either, whereas you’re behaving like like a bully, calling for reinforcements from your gang. Ideas can be divisive. Some people have difficulty dealing in a mature manner with differences, and seek to silence descending voices them as if free speech wasn’t a thing. And because this is my impression, and free will is also a thing, I’m choosing to no longer interact with you because you’ve lost my respect. So, peace out.
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@ Bridget:
i’m sure she knows whereof you speak. i don’t know anyone my age or older who doesn’t.
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@ Velour:
again, yep.
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@ roebuck:
It’s my opinion. I don’t think it’s unfounded. Please ignore me if you are sympathetic towards a particular church that would lead you to conclude my opinion is “rude.” Would you like me to say I think you’re “biased?” No, probably not.
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@ Paula Rice:
wow. she’s disagreeing to censor you.
they are not the same thing.
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@ lowlandseer:
Emoticons don’t work for me on this site with my devices for some reason. Probably for the best. Hee hee.
Here is the comment I made in response to the article Aimee Byrd posted on MoS:
“Aimee is trying real hard but scared to death her arguments will promote mutuality so her comp Doctrine becomes the default theme, sadly.
Perhaps she needs to study more about mutual submission and stop ignoring Eph 5:21, as one example
For another view on the serious problems with ESS check out Kevin Giles. He takes on Ware with a scholarly approach.”
(I got it wrong. Aimee was posting parts of what someone else wrote which just means I now transfer the comment to him. Was that clear as mud? )
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@ numo:
should have said ‘not trying to censor you.’
my bad; weird editing function here.
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roebuck wrote:
No, that’s not what I said. I said it serves as a substructure. The platform has similarities. Both organizations are build on male hierarchy. The materials used by each in creating the substructure may be different, but the end result, as I see it is the same. They both become pillars that hold up the structures.
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@ Paula Rice:
Sorry, Paula, I have no clue what you’re referring to. I don’t know the other posters here, haven’t called for “reinforcements” from anybody, don’t have “a gang” here.
The topics you’ve raised, like ESS, are well-documented and were proposed by Bruce Ware and Wayne Grudem, both Protestant evangelicals.
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FW Rez wrote:
There is too much theological wiggle room in the BFM2K, which allows two distinctly different soteriologies to coexist in a single denomination. The Calvinists on the BFM2K revision committee maneuvered enough changes in the document to allow their belief and practice under the SBC big tent. So any Southern Baptist that challenges their seat at the table would be questioning the “creed” that ties the denomination together. Another smooth strategy by the New Calvinists.
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It is strange that ESS supporters try to pin ESS as an ‘orthodox’ teaching. I had noticed this over at SBCvoices and commented on it there as inaccurate. Apparently the word ‘orthodox’ is used to put a stamp of approval on a man-made doctrine to try to sell it as something that comes from ancient Church. But a little study of Church history, especially about the working of the early Councils in the areas of ‘Who Christ was’ and ‘the Holy Trinity’, really can help someone who is ill-informed.
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@ Christiane:
I’ve seen SBC stalwarts repeatedly claim that ESS is baked into the Nicene Creed. WRONG.
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Paula Rice wrote:
Well, let me give it a shot. You seem to be saying that if people arrive at positions that seem to have some similarities, then there must be some link or similarity in how they got to those positions. You may be limiting that to the similarities themselves or not, I can’t quite know if that is the case.
So let me observe, as one whose mother tongue is ‘baptist’ and who has spent an enormous amount of time and effort trying to learn ‘catholic’ as a second language, you all are speaking different languages. Baptist thinking processes as well as Baptist presuppositions are quite different from Catholic thinking processes and presuppositions, even when the same or similar words are being used. I am thinking that you all are not going to be able to understand each other in any way that is really understanding. Now, either of you could learn to more or less think in the same paradigms as the other, but unless that happens there may be no hope for meaningful communication.
Likewise you and the RC people are using different approaches to argumentation and that seems to me to be typical of your all’s respective religious training. Your approach is confrontational and rather in your face, similar to what one of my children was taught at Liberty U to be an appropriate stance in apologetics. In my experience Catholics are more apt to not argue with that approach, and in fact tend to shy away from apologetics per se when possible. When these two approaches encounter each other sometimes unpleasantness results, in my experience.
So, as to paragraph one, is that what you are saying?
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Unepetiteanana wrote:
That is the point Leighton Flowers made a while back. Calvinists don’t “practice” their religion on a day to day basis in real life ways.
This has been a historical problem and another reason it ebbs and resurges historically. It is one reason some Cal groups went a social Gospel focus. Others the frozen chosen. This Resurgence is really the First Time The pew Peasants have had the opportunity to take it to the Public Square and discuss it in-depth. Before it was basically discussed in theoligical Academic circles.
Calvinism is great for the ‘specially appointed by God leaders’. Not so much for the followers who at some point seem to become exhausted with the sin navel gazing and obedience to some leader as their Holy Spirit.
The Puritan descendants threw it off and went all sorts of ways like Universalism and such.
John Adams is interesting in this regard as he touched upon his “father’s religion” in some of his writings. Our Founders did not have Puritan souls, thank God! Or there would not have been a Founding!
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Speaking of Bruce Ware and Wayne Grudem’s semi-Arian heresy, The Eternal Subordination of the Son, Ken F. made this insightful post on May 25th here:
““Let me see if I understand Ware’s logic. Woman was made from man, which makes woman lower than man. Man was made from dirt, which makes man lower than dirt? No, wait, that won’t work. Ok, lets try this. Man was made after all the plants and animals, which means man has dominion over all of them. Woman was made after man, which means woman has dominion over man. No, wait, that doesn’t work either. What’s a poor complementarian to do?”
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FW Rez wrote:
Russell Dilday is a good man, a “constructive conservative” by his own label, who paid the price for standing his ground during the Conservative Resurgence. The CR leaders who orchestrated his termination as President, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, should be ashamed of themselves. They should have sought a better way to handle a brother, rather than swinging the axe at everything liberal/moderate. As I think about it, the old “traditionalists” in SBC who were involved in that mess may be experiencing a boomerang effect with Calvinism … even though I wouldn’t wish that on anyone!
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Paula Rice wrote:
Paula,
I don’t know where the chip on your shoulder is from, but it’s very obviously there.
I don’t have any particular sympathy or antipathy towards the RCC – I was just pointing out a serious flaw in your logic.
I think you’re being both biased and rude, but that’s just my opinion. I don’t think it’s unfounded. Just ignore it if you don’t like it.
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@ numo:
NUMO, I really upset one administrator when I challenged ESS as ‘orthodox’. I brought in Church history, the Creeds, and some quotes from the writings of St. Ambrose. The funny thing is some of the ESS people said that they did not identify as Calvinists. (?) SBCvoices was an interesting setting for learning about fundamentalism.
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Christiane wrote:
Spot on. And they’ve equated their Complementarian teaching as part of The Gospel, i.e. if you don’t believe Comp you don’t believe the *real God* and the *real Bible*. Comp was heavily promoted in the 1990’s.
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K.D. wrote:
All they have to do is connect the dots. No doubt about it, they were fooled. (fooling other Christians is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit by the way)
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Christiane wrote:
That depends on the “misinformation” and the person trying to clear it up. Sorry, but have had too many YRR say the same to me. Sounds like Mahaney and his favorite proverb about presenting a case until another comes along.
I don’t agree with Paula’s position of ESS/Catholicism/male hierarchy.
I knew too many seeker megas that were authoritarian. They just hid it well and it wasn’t inherent in their doctrinal stance. Their polity? Yes.
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@ Christiane:
Well, it seems some over at SBCVoices/Pravda are claiming that Lottie Moon was a Confederate spy.
I wonder if they know about Boyce? :o)
So I would not be too sad about being moderated.
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roebuck wrote:
I think that the Calvinistas seized on George Knight III’s work and Grudem popularized it through his ST which is inexpensive. Thus the cancer spread. Let’s give Knight his due, however, because he was and is not YRR. He was old-line PCA/OPC before the current crop of YRR were a gleam in their mothers’ eyes.
You are exactly right that Knight contrived ESS to justify the “equal in being but unequal in role” formulation for gender relations. The reason that was necessary was because the PCA was being pressured to ordain women who were being ordained in the PCUSA. And the PCUSA still had a *lot* of relatively conservative folks who could be won over to the brand spanking new (1973) PCA if the PCA could solve the woman question while *also* reassuring women that we are “equal.”
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Max wrote:
How very sad.
And Dr. Sheri Klouda was gotten rid of, a conservative who taught Hebrew at a seminary
(and had gotten her job by a vote of the trustees) because she was a woman. Her husband was quite ill at the time as well and she was forced to sell her blood to raise funds to pay bills, receive charitable donations from churches.
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2007/01/strange-belief-that-woman-cannot-teach_19.html
Countless other stories of good, decent Christians – men and women – run off from seminaries and Christian universities.
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@ Velour:
Yep. Ware teaches that women are not made in the “direct” image of God. They are a derivative.
Ken F does a good job of processing the outcome of Wares teaching!
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okrapod wrote:
Hi OKRAPOD,
I think you are right about Catholics not using certain ‘tactics’ such a proselytizing, and you are also right in that different faith traditions use the same words in different ways. Catholics are great ones for ‘dialoguing’, preferring it as more respectful of other faith traditions than even the more confrontation ‘debate’ setting with its winners and losers. ‘Dialoguing’ is always a win-win. But it does require mutual respect which bring with it a better chance for understanding what important differences are and what important areas of agreement are. Yep, ‘dialoguing’ is a Catholic favorite for respectful communication with other faith traditions, and it does yield increased understanding and clarifications. Loved your positive comment, OKRAPOD. You would be really good at dialoguing, because you have a care that people understand one another which is healing in the Church. 🙂
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Velour wrote:
I remember Dr. Klouda’s story. It broke my heart.
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@ Velour:
How could “christians” do such horrible and life changing things to other Christians?
I have never been able to figure this out.
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@ Christiane:
This is all true, and true of most Episcopalians and many (not all) Lutherans as well. It works so much better than telling people that they’re flat-out wrong (among other things).
Though I do know Catholics who are the next thing to tradddies, who would profoundly disagree with you and others who espouse your views. (Mine, too, but since I’m not Catholic…)
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Gram3 wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Knight_III
I don’t know anything about Knight. Gram3, besides being a minister in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, has Knight also been part of the Reconstructionists movement
(Rushdoony and the others)?
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@ Christiane:
I’m not sure we can generalize that much. I’ve had run ins with pretty pushy Catholics (and ones who liked to ‘joke’ that women shouldn’t vote). Maybe it is more of a fundamentalism pushy argument scale?
Not on this board though.
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Lydia wrote:
I copy some of the really good posts, books, links at the top of the page here under the Interesting tab, Books/Movies, etc., including that post from Ken F which was just terrific!
KenF also had a whole bunch of questions about Calvinism and links, that I also posted there. Brad/FuturistGuy has some great stuff to over there.
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@ Christiane:
I wish their leaders had done more dialoguing when the priest pedophile situation started to come out.
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Christiane wrote:
I know. Just vicious what Paige Patterson did to her. How could they? How can they say they love God and do this to people? Where is The Love?
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2014/06/paige-pattersons-apology-to-people-hes.html
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numo wrote:
LOL …these ‘Catholics’ have a thin veneer of Catholicism and are fundamentalist-evangelicals to the core
P.S. Francis just side-lined Cardinal Burke for his far-right politics and extreme views; everyone understood what Burke had been up to as he made no secret of it. 🙂
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mot wrote:
I ask myself that too. I wonder about their relationship with God, their understanding of The Gospel.
They seem willing to damage other Christians who have violated one of their perceived, man-made “rules” instead of following the commandment from Jesus to love your neighbor as yourself.
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@ Lydia:
We make no excuses for the horror of what happened. That is why I support blogs like this one, LYDIA. The trouble in the whole Church ain’t over yet. There is still much work to be done to protect innocents from abuse.
Power to the Deebs!
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Velour wrote:
No, he has not gone down that road. He has been straight up PCA/OPC, as far as I know. Most OPC find Reconstructionism “out there” and not in keeping with the Westminster Stamdards.
It is just that the fledgling PCA had a threat/opportunity in the female ordination issue, and they tapped Knight to solve it for them.
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Christiane wrote:
Believe me that sort of treatment is a direct result of comp Doctrine.
They keep telling us it is about their caring for and being responsible for women. But what it really does is make them see women as lesser beings.
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@ Christiane:
What do you consider an extreme View? Just curious. I hope the far left-wing gets the same boot.
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@ Velour:
These people seem void of love.
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Lydia wrote:
Completely agree.
What kills me is when they come back with some weird argument about some just wanting glory when they want an equal place! Projection much?
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Lea wrote:
In the Greek texts, the Apostle Paul wrote that one woman (singular) was to stop teaching one man (singular) error and to learn correctly. The issue was error, not gender.
Those who believe in denying women the right to use their gift of teaching mistranslated this word for their Bibles (like ESV) to the plural “women”, making it appear the Apostle Paul issued this decree.
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Gram3 wrote:
Thanks for answering my question about Knight.
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Lea wrote:
It seems like it has more in common with radical Islam and the Taliban than with Biblical Christianity.
Brad/FuturistGuy invented a word for it: “Shehad” (She+had, sounds like jihad) for these Comp Christians’ “War on Women”.
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Christiane wrote:
Well, fundamentalists, but not so much evangelicals since an integral part of being evangelical is not being catholic. But there are fundamentalists of all sorts of religious persuasions. Or maybe I should say zealots. Some people can get to the point that it is hard to differentiate enthusiasm for their particular issue from actual obsessive thinking.
When I was in college I used to take an occasional philosophy class here and there to keep up my GPA (I would have eaten fried cow manure if somebody had offered me a good grade for it) but anyhow one prof gave us a quote from somebody who basically said that in any argument if you believe that if your argument fails to prevail then you as a person have failed, then you have failed already. Along that line I heard one of my favorite gospel singers talk about making a living as a Nashville studio singer, and he said that first you have to get comfortable with hearing ‘no’ for an answer. Same thought, different circumstances. That is hard to do but it appears to work well for those who can do it.
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Hi All,
Praise report: Someone donated the last bit of money to long-time TWW poster Jeannette Altes’ gofundme account so she could make her June rent that is due. I had been fervantly praying for this since yesterday!
Jeannette has fallen on hard times, is being treated for a tumor, lost her job, and does not have funds.
She will need additional help $500 starting next week for bills that are coming due.
Oh here is the GoFundMe account: https://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp
Thank you all again!
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@ okrapod:
Let me explain myself a little to you; maybe this will help?
I’m not a Baptist and have never belonged to or participated in a Baptist Church. I have also never identified as a Calvinist or with Neo-calvinism. As far as I know, Neo-calvinism is something the SBC adopted or imported. From what I’ve read, some Baptists embraced it while others disagree with it.
I believe that Reformation was an important event. I feel it was a turning point, an important chapter in the progression of human freedom, which continues to unfold.
My convictions are rooted in a deep appreciation for human rights and freedom, in the Greatest Story Ever Told, and in my love for the Hero who rescued me.
I also believe the church was born of the Spirit, and is “a house not made with hands.” Too often what happens is we end up creating and participating in forms of religion we call “church,” but are man-made and we wonder why we’re not experiencing God. Whenever this happens, liberty is lost and the power of the gospel is restricted. This is where my concern lies in the matters we talk about here.
Thanks for asking. Hope this helps you understand me a little.
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Christiane wrote:
I am not RC, but I have very much enjoyed dialogue with them over the years. I have found the more knowledgeable they are the more they are willing to engage in friendly dialogue. I’ve also had some great dialogue with Muslims. What I found most interesting in my conversations with Muslims is their inability to “prove” what they believe. It’s not that they don’t want to, they just don’t have the background. This is pretty much because Islam has not been not self-critical like Christianity has been over the centuries, so they don’t have a history of apologetics to draw from. I have not found that same willingness to dialogue among Calvinists. I think it’s because they’ve been taught that anything contrary to Calvinism is heresey. So they tend to limit their exposure to non-Calvinistic ideas. But this is just my limited experience. I very much appreciate the respectful dialogue on this site. It’s what gave me the courage to start posting a few weeks ago.
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https://www.gospelproject.com/2016/05/14/ruth-and-boaz/
“Ruth and Boaz. (Ruth 1—4) This story has to rank up there with one of the greatest love stories ever. Really, it should be a Hollywood blockbuster.
The poor foreign widow, who is fiercely loyal to her dead husband’s mother, catches the eye of a kind and generous man who pursues her and marries her taking her out of a life of poverty. Tell me if that isn’t a script of a romantic comedy that my wife would want me to watch with her.”
I just posted this for a taste of what the Gospel Project leaders teach. Why can’t we just read the Bible for ourselves. It gets so twisted by the time these guys chew it up.
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Paula Rice wrote:
I know how you feel about this religion stuff we all have created. It’s become pretty messy. I posted this link on the last thread, but I want to highlight it again because this lecture series is so applicable to what you posted here. I think you would be blessed by hearing it, even if you don’t agree with it. Baxter Kruger highlights the difference between what he calls the G-O-D “god” who stands ready to smite us in his wrath until he is appeased by some kind of innocent suffering, and the Father/Son/Spirit view of God revealed in the Bible that the early church preached. The contrast is stark. G-O-D scares us, so we do whatever we can to run and hide. This is the “god” of the Calvinists. It’s all they’ve been taught. They are afraid to take another look. But the Trinity has been relational from all of eternity and spares no expense in drawing all mankind (not just a few elect) into that relationship. It’s more like how God is pictured in the parable of the prodigal son – he disregards his glory to run out and seek both of his sons. If you have time I highly recommend listening to this series: http://perichoresis.org/the-cat-is-out-of-the-bag/. I’m sure he has the same info in a book, but I have not gotten around to reading more than one book by him so I don’t know which one to recommend.
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@ Patti:
Patti wrote:
So it is a romantic comedy?
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Paula Rice wrote:
Indeed it does help. You have some good points that you have explained well. Thanks for doing that. I do think that some of us have not understood where you are coming from, and this helps enormously. I think your last sentence about the power of the gospel being restricted where there is a loss of liberty opens up room for lots of thinking about how that happens and what the limits of it may or may not be. I see possibilities for some good interchange of ideas as time goes along.
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Gram3 wrote:
I just ordered them both. Thanks. Ware’s looks short, thankfully, only 158 pages. I also pulled out my copy of Erickson’s Christian Theology a little while ago and found it helpful to this debate. He describes things simply and logically. Can’t wait for his other book to arrive.
I’m getting most of my reading recommendations from TWW or from Internet Monk these days. No regrets.
Incidentally, Mike Mercer’s book (Chaplain Mike at iMonk) Walking Home Together is now available on Amazon.
http://smile.amazon.com/Walking-Home-Together-Spiritual-Practical/dp/1627851496/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1464993133&sr=8-1&keywords=michael+mercer
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numo wrote:
Numo, I hope that’s true, but there’s a line in the Nicene Creed that I don’t recite when it comes around–the part about the Holy Spirit. Whether it includes the Western church’s “filioque” (reference to the Son) or not, it subordinates the Holy Spirit:
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Velour wrote:
Another line of thought of complementarians takes the curse God placed on the woman as the norm: “And he will rule over you” becomes a normative mantra to support the their view that men are supposed to rule over women.
So let’s apply that same normative mantra to men from the other curses:
“In toil you will eat of [the ground] All the days of your life.” That means men are only allowed to eat from what they personally produce from the field. And only if it involves personal toiling. No more restaurants. No more grocery stores. No more pubs. No more home-cooked meals. I guess it even means no fasting because men have to eat on all days.
“And you will eat the plants of the field.” Same as above, but also say goodbye to all meat and dairy products. That will put a damper on potlucks. But on the bright side, it would force men to drink black coffee, which is the only manly way to drink it.
“By the sweat of your face You will eat bread.” No more air conditioning – all bread must be eaten while sweating from the face. This could also mean that it is sinful to live in cool climates, unless one can find a hot place to eat bread. I suppose one could create rules about whether or not sweating is mandatory while eating non-bread foods.
If we think that it’s ok to resist these other curses, then why would we in any way want to retain the curse of men ruling over women? I am so glad that my wife is strong enough to not need me to dominate her like that.
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@ Lydia:
Lol. Yes thanks. I will work my way through it over the weekend. I think the MoS blog is essentially complementarian, as I am, but perhaps conscious of the extremes to which the New Calvinists go to try to justify their position.
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mot wrote:
According to the teaching of 1John, they shouldn’t be. It doesn’t exactly square with John 13:35 or 15:12 either.
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Patti wrote:
Actually, Ruth pursued Boaz. Talk about twisting scripture to fit their doctrine!
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Ken F wrote:
Another excellent post, Ken F.
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Patti wrote:
She just happens to ‘catch his eye’ when she sneaks in to sleep at his feet in the middle of the night?
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Lydia wrote:
You know, it’s funny. The comps are always phrasing it as though “the real Christian man” is all about being strong and in authority so he can protect women and children… yet somehow I have yet to read any cases where this is happening? I’ve read far too many of the opposite happening. And, at the same time, it turns out it is really the comp men who need all the protecting! The women have to protect them in every way! So I say it is just a sham, a self-delusion these characters are flattering themselves with.
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Nancy2 wrote:
That too. Did they even read that story???
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mot wrote:
Let me get this straight. These guys are the “serious” ones. Yet they take the book of Ruth which is rich with typology and make it into a comedy? There is something very off-putting about what Trevin Wax approved, and it goes way beyond the condescending remark about his wife (whoever wrote that drivel.)
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Nancy2 wrote:
You took the words out of my mouth! They have turned the story around completely backwards!
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Gram3 wrote:
They’re being “winsome” wink wink
Have to toss that line out there and slowly reeeel it in with the light stuff…
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This reminds me of the way that Driscoll butchered the book of Esther.
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siteseer wrote:
They are being juvenile and unserious. The book of Ruth is a tragedy which God redeems, bringing sweetness and salvation out of bitterness and desolation. I really think that a large part of the problem is that these guys have lived in such a privileged bubble of high-fiving groupthink that they are heroes that they are simply clueless.
They cannot comprehend what it was like for Naomi and Ruth not to have a husband or male relative to provide for and protect them in that culture and time. Maybe they should get out of the Dubai Hilton or Four Seasons or whatever and take a look at real life in the real misogynistic world that still persists in that part of the world. That is not a romantic comedy for sure.
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Gram3 wrote:
Did they mention the legal responsibility Boaz had to marry Ruth since he was her kinsman redeemer? He only did what was required of him after Ruth took the initiative to take care of his “cold feet” problem. Sometimes it takes a good woman to get the man to rise to the occasion. It’s a team effort. This explains why “it is not good for the man to be alone.”
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Gram3 wrote:
I reread Ruth recently and noticed the part where Boaz says ‘I have told the men not to touch you’. That jumped out at me as an adult quite a bit more than as a kid!
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@ Velour:
Forced to sell her blood?! Literally? Wow
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From the Gospel Project tips page:
“Keep the vision of The Gospel Project at the forefront of your thinking.”
Contrast that with Hebrews 12:2 – “fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith,”
(see https://www.gospelproject.com/2015/08/12/tips-to-start-well/ – most of the rest of the link describes how print the material)
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@ Gram3:
Agree with you, for sure, Gram3.
I also do not think they have a clue what it is like for many women today, even within their own little bubbles, based on the treatment of women like Shauna Marquis and so many others.
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Ron Oommen wrote:
Yes, Ron. Hateful what Paige Patterson did to Dr. Klouda and her very ill husband.
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@ Velour:
PP is an evil human being who has destroyed many lives.
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This answers the question about whether or not The Gospel Project teaches penal substitution. The atonement section (https://www.gospelproject.com/2014/02/25/atonement-christian-life-blog-series/) links to this: https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/trevinwax/2014/01/16/atonement-thread-penal-substitution/. Other links also point to The Gospel Coalition articles about Jesus satisfying the wrath of God.
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mot wrote:
I’m not in that denomination but I have gathered that about him from what I’ve come across.
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@ Velour:
He was one of the architects of the Southern Baptist Convention Conservative Resurgence.
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Check out this helpful guide on “Talking to toddlers about sin” – https://www.gospelproject.com/2016/02/03/mistakes-or-wrong-choices-talking-to-toddlers-about-sin/.
Really?!?!?!?!?
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Velour wrote:
Hi, Velour! I always love your posts, but I am mystified by this one. Where did I diss someone else’s church? Au contraire, I was merely defending my church from attacks by someone else. Rather gratuitous attacks at that. Surely one is allowed to respond to misinformation? Surely, if anyone should be directed to the other thread, it should be the attacker, not the person offering the rather innocuous response to the attack? Doncha think? 😉
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Ken F wrote:
Because We MEN Personally Benefit from it, of course.
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Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
Regrets for the misunderstanding. My post was not directed to you. It was directed to another poster and Deb’s reminder (one of our hostesses/blog queens here) to use the Open Discussion forum for the “who has the worst denomination” topic so the threads didn’t get derailed.
Hope that clears it up.
I enjoy your posts too!
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numo wrote:
Thankfully I know the RC Rad-Trads only online, not in Real Life. Kinda like some of the converts to Orthodoxy I know online. They can often be really obnoxious, but no one I know in Real Life, either Catholic or Orthodox, is remotely like that. The Internet gives the lunatic fringe a great big megaphone. But believe me, the crazies are not representative of anyone or anything.
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William Thornton wrote:
Well, then why didn’t they have a *single* non-Calvinistic author? We’re now able to share the writings of Matt Chandler w/ our middle school kids (gag me), so when they see his name at the local Lifeway store, how likely will they be to pick it up? THIS is what indoctrination is—the acceptability of a name when the defenses are lowered. Now they’ll think, “Oh, this is the guy who did such a good job teaching little Johnny about the Bible,” and buy his next book, and therefore lap up Calvinism w/out a drop of discernment.
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Velour wrote:
Indeed it does!! So sorry for misunderstanding!!!!
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Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
Oh no, worries. I’m sorry I included your screen name and didn’t specify.
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Ken F wrote:
Yes, Ruth was a very “bold” woman. If the YRRs really read the book, they might even call her brazen. Yet, a descendant of Ruth and Boaz was the Prince of Peace and King of Kings.
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I remember studying the book of Ruth many years ago. As far as I recall from my studies, Ruth did nothing wrong. She was following the direction of Naomi. Boas was indeed a kinsman redeemer. And they were in the bloodline of Jesus.Nancy2:
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@ Patti:
What the Dickens! This is incredibly shallow and leaves out the raw truth she was probably one of several wives and arranged her marriage for protection in that world.
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@ mot:
A Greek Romantic comedy. :o)
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Ken F wrote:
Very true but comps take it further. They claim the “rule over women” is because the woman ‘desired’ to rule man. They add in ‘easily deceived’ which cannot be fixed spiritually for some reason. The cross/resurrection was not enough, it seems.
McArthur calls it war.
It does not occur to them that Eve ‘admitted’ she was deceived while Adam simply blamed Eve and God.
So which is better for leadership? :o)
Just kidding. I am a firm believer in what Carolyn Custis James calls the “blessed alliance” approach.
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@ Ken F:
I listened to Kruger’s “crisis in the western church” on YouTube last night. Interesting stuff. I did a bit of Reading on the Torrence brothers. Seems they were big on science/theology. Plan to do more reading. New worlds to learn about!
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@ Christiane:
I am related to a few, by marriage. I love them, but their intense adherence to what one calls “Catholic law” seems to cut off a lot of the love of Christ for others. : (
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I don’t mind if some, many, or all Baptist leaders are Calvinist. I don’t even care if they are all Neo-Calvinists. What I do care about is the way these “leaders” seem to have absolutely no compunction about deceiving people.
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@ Ted:
It still isn’t subordination, Ken. It has to do with confusion over a couple of different passages where Jesus seemingly said somewhat contradictory things about whether only the Father sends the Holy Spirit, or whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son. Honestly, i think the Great Schism is a non-starter and a lot of foolish ire over something that cannot be proved either way.
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@ Ted:
Sorry i called you by the wrong name, Ted!
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numo wrote:
I think the great schism was not over the particular issue of the creed, but the fact that the Bishop or Rome changed the creed on his own without the consent of the other bishops. He broke the rules.
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@ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
Um… you should meet some of my relatives. And some former Protestants who’ve converted to one or another of the EO churches really are pretty harsh IRL. just some, by no means the vadt majority. But they exist.
A very close family member has been subjected to repeated references to “the heretics” re. the Protestant Reformation (she is ELCA Luthran, as am i) with no recourse but to suffer and stew in silence. Why the *-other* relatives were being so insensitive, i have no idea, but they sure were. They were all in the same car, with a good long drive ahead of them.
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@ Ken F:
Iirc, that’s not the only thing. About 20 years ago, when the Ecumenical Patriarch visited DC, most area Orthodox were hoping he came eith an olive branch + apology. Instead, he started off by referring to all Catholics as heretics.
He is no longer the EP, and i think things are looking up a bit, what with Pope Francis plus changes re. the EP. the Orthodox have no centralized authority structure, umlike the RCC, but still, when the EP goes sbroad, his words and actions carry a lot of weight.
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@ Ken F:
It is literally about the word “filioque,” which was added… makes it say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, not the Father alone. Reams hsve bern written about this, and there are extremes of prejudice within Greece and some other longtime Orthodox bastions over the word. It’s easy to find condrmnatory writing from way, way back.
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@ Ken F:
I can’t vouch for the accuracy of everything here, but still…
https://orthodoxwiki.org/Filioque
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FW Rez wrote:
I had never heard of the BFM growing up and we were in Seminary circles. It was just not a “thing’ at all. We were purposely non creedal types. I still am.
Fast forward. Not long ago a sermon series on the BFM was making the rounds in SBC churches here. It seems to have come from the SBC to pastors. Max might know the orientation. It was literally all laid out for pastors what to say about it.
I was astonished. This is weird. Pastors in my childhood would have been offended at such a blatent move.
People have become such lemmings.
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@ siteseer:
And I agree with you, especially the wink wink. I actually think that they believe they are being winsome and have no idea whatsoever how ridiculous that is to others. Even crank old conservatives like me. I want to scream, “Grow up already!”
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Lea wrote:
Thank you for highlighting that dose of genuine Biblical reality. The boys in the bubble really have no idea what the real world is like except that their fellow bubble boys think they are awesome.
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@ XianJaneway:
Agree totally. I think that Chandler’s Calvinism is not the greatest problem with Chandler’s theology and practice. The travesty/debacle/moral faceplant by The Village ELDERS should have made that plain. I guess he did not lead his elders well…
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Lydia wrote:
That is a rough translation of what came to my mind when I read about Ruth being a script for a romantic comedy.
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Lydia wrote:
Some lemmings are expendable if it means saving enough of them to reach the next level. I keep on thinking of the “oh no!” Sound they make when they realize their time is up.
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numo wrote:
I have some relatives who left the Methodist church and went Russian Orthodox. Lovely people, but absolutely convinced that Orthodox is the only way; no ifs, ands, or buts. Like my mother says, converts can be the worst.
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Ken F wrote:
I hate stuff like this. I think this is one reason why the older women are to teach the younger- they’ve had time to find out how all these things wash out.
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@ Ken F:
@ okrapod:
Thanks!
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Celia wrote:
Isn’t that the “Pulpiteers” Internet hit squad that hounded 15-year-old Braxton Caner to suicide?
“Well, kids are off limits! Great! You got a verse that says that?”
– JD Hall, Predestined Elect
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Lydia wrote:
I have not read much of him, he is a Christian universalist, is he not?
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siteseer wrote:
That was my concern when I first started listening to him. Here is what he says about his universalism: http://baxterkruger.blogspot.com/2012/09/universalism_10.html.
It turns out that Calvinism and Universalism are two sides of the same coin. They both stand on the premise that atonement = salvation. So for the Calvinists, since not everyone is saved, it must mean that atonement is limited. For if atonement equals salvation and if atonement is not limited (making it unlimited), then the logical conclusion is universal salvation. The issue hangs on the question of whether unlimited atonement equals universal salvation. I’m seeing how it’s logical and theologically possible for Christ’s atonement to apply to all of humanity, while still leaving individuals with the choice of whether to receive and believe it or to reject it. This is very much how the parable of the prodigal son portrays it. The father had done everything needed for both sons, but the older son (the religious type) refused to enter the party even though it was his.
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__
“The Initial Gospel Project?”
hmmm…
The Protestant Reformation was initially about one thing: getting the Word of God back into the hands of the masses in their own native language, so that the corrupt ‘church’ would be exposed and the message of salvation in Christ alone, by scripture alone, through faith alone would be thus proclaimed again.
(Note: The Protestant Reformation was not initially about Calvinism.)
That corruption of the intent of scripture came later via “The Institutes Of The Christian Religion” which was written by a lawyer named John Calvin who wished to use his writings to overthrow the Roman Catholic Church.
Men who’s names you may recall (Wycliff & later Tyndale) (Luther into German) brought the sacred hebrew and greek writings into English form.
The Geneva Bible was the first ‘biblical’ transport system for John Calvin’s “Institutes Of The Christian Religion. (ICR) It was filled with margin notes expounding ICR teachings. England’s King James later had the 1611 english bible created to completely remove these ICR teachings from his subject’s bible.
—
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Gram3 wrote:
To me, winsome = fake. The YRRs use it to groom people to never put up a fight. The expectation is for all of us to put on fake smiles and never deal honestly with tough issues. It’s contrary to the spirit of the Bereans. Jesus was anything but “winsome” in his continued rebukes of the Pharisees. This is why they want us all to be winsome, so that they won’t have to defend their bad theology.
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Is there a link between the YRR and the explosion of multi-campus churches? It seems to me there is a strong tie between the infiltration of the SBC, the seminaries, the marketing and branding of big name pastors (Driscoll, Piper, Platt, Chandler and probably others) with neo-calvinism and the tendency toward mega-church and multi-campus churches. The only odd man out that I can think of is Steven Furtick and I’m not sure at this point what he is.
I could be wrong and it is just a hunch.
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@ siteseer:
I have not listened enough to know.
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Ken F wrote:
Bingo! This had been my position for several years. Both are deterministic!
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@ Jamie Carter:
So true
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@ waking up:
I think they are emulating the seeker megas who started that trend. It is a way to bring in more money while being the celebrity on the IMAG that broadcasts to each location.
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@ Ken F:
From your Kruger link:
“That would be to deny, theologically speaking, the authenticity of our personhood and our real freedom to participate.”
This is my thinking when it comes to universalism or limited atonement. It totally takes away recognition of our created ability to respond to God.
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Lydia wrote:
It hinges on whether atonement is limited or unlimited. This is one time where the choices are truly binary because there is no such thing as a partial limitation. It’s either limited or not, like being pregnant or not. For those folks who believe atonement is limited, it’s very difficult to avoid talking about Calvinism because limited atonement is such an essential part of Calvinism. For those folks who believe atonement is unlimited, it’s very difficult to avoid talking about universal salvation because universal salvation relies on unlimited atonement. But I’m beginning to be convinced that unlimited atonement is more “biblical” (the YRRs have made it hard for me to use that word) and logically consistent. The only problem is its brush with universalism, but I think Kruger offers a good answer on how unlimited atonement is not the same thing as universal salvation.
In one of the interviews or lectures I heard in the last few months, the speaker asked something like, “How can we claim to be Christians and not wish for the salvation of everyone?” That’s a very good question. And it seems to be the hope of the early church. But the Calvinists seem to hope in the damnation of the majority for the sake of the chosen and for the glory of G-O-D.
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Lydia wrote:
Hahaha!! I used to participate in a women’s Bible study run by out next-door neighbor, a very nice lady and an ardent proponent of the Prosperity Gospel. She started us out with Beth Moore videos before eventually moving us on to the craycray Name It and Claim It stuff, at which point I decamped. But yeah, that was my impression of Moore, too. Mostly inoffensive but there was definitely something ewww-inducing.
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Jerome wrote:
Here are a few more links to 9Marks. See https://www.gospelproject.com/2015/04/14/biblical-preaching-a-discussion-panel-at-the-sbc/ – this is a Gospel Project sponsored event with a free bookbag that include a book by Dever. This one is a bit old, but it shows 9Marks endorsing The Gospel Project: https://9marks.org/article/journaladvantages-curriculum/.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Just more evidence (in my opinion) that fundagelicalism has pretty much done with the Bible what Wahhabi Islam has done with their Qur’an.
Both systems run roughshod over the human conscience, and the only moral compass acknowledged in both systems is the one explicitly spelled out in their respective holy books.
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@ Ken F:
and then there’s Amyraldianism …
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@ waking up:
correlation but I’m not sure there’s causation. A lot of the elements for what is multisite now seem like they were pioneered by Pentecostal televangalists decades ago. Multi-site is in a lot of ways nothing more than a closed-circuit version of a television-mediated church. The YRR may have shown themselves better than average at it but a case like Driscoll can’t be taken as normative because both Mark and Grace got formal education in propaganda techniques and Mark took a keen interest in formal control of integrated media. I think it’s more plausible to propose that megachurch multi-site pastors are not united by any doctrinal position (Driscoll could announce he’s an egalitarian charismatic later this year for all we know) as a commitment to methods–e.g. Jacques Ellul said that propagandists were the aristocrats of our era and I think a case can be made that megachurch pastors fit that profile.
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@ Lydia:
Yes, this is true, Lydia. Both Calvinism and universalism are deterministic. Determinism, whether in its naturalistic (atheistic) form or its religious form, is pagan.
The great Christian contribution to divine metaphysics is the concept that person is a legitimate metaphysical category alongside nature and will. The Hellenistic, Paltonic conception of the “one” was absolute divine simplicity, which means that person, essence, and will are indistinguishable. That means that the Platonic conception of “God” (infused into Christianity by both Origen in the east and Augustine in the west) cannot meaningfully distinguish between the essence or being of God, the will of God, and the person of God. This is why Arius and others argued that Jesus was less than the Father in the 4th century. Absolute divine simplicity demands one essence, one person, and one will, indistinguishable. It was the genius of Athanasius of Alexandria who made the distinction between essence and will when comparing Jesus (eternally generated and therefore of the same essence – homoousios – as the Father and therefore necessary) and creation (temporally created by the will of God, and therefore contingent).
Determinism cannot distinguish between will and essence meaningfully. Augustine’s neoplatonism struggled with it. More to be said about this, but it would fill a lot of pages.
Jim G.
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@ Jim G.:
I am glad you are reading here! Before I read your comment I need to ask if you remember the site that had links to some of Calvin’s correspondence online. I thought it was this but now cannot find it there:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin?show=worksBy
It was bookmarked on an old laptop, sadly. I think I first discovered it through you.
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Jim G. wrote:
I am assuming this is where terminology like ontological and economic is an attempt by the determinists to make it fit?
Btw: I read Giles’ book years back refuting Ware and was astonished to read how Ware blatantly edited Anthanasius to make his words fit ESS. It was a major eye opener for me at the time.
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Ken F wrote:
Ken, I think the problem is simpler that that. I think they both take human ability out of the equation totally.
And quite frankly most strains of protestantism do this to some degree or another. The question is where to draw the line. We can’t stop earthquakes but we can design buildings that withstand them better. We Can’t Stop tornadoes but look at the early Warning Systems we have now. We invented antibiotics. And so on and on.
Human ability is the missing piece as far as I can tell. Which always brings me back to the question of what does it mean to be made in God’s image. I often wish we could discuss that more without accusations of thinking we are little gods.
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WenatcheeTheHatchet wrote:
I had never heard of that word before today when I did a search to find Trevor Wax’s theology. And then I saw your post later. Here is what he says about himself: “I’m a Christian – Baptist – Amyraldian. In that order. (In fact, I’m thinking of getting a bumper sticker that says “Amyraldian – and loving it!” Just kidding on that one.)” But he lists Grudem as one of his favorite theologians.
It’s interesting how Amyraldianism ties in with the topic of this thread. It’s hard to tell what they believe about atonement. It’s as if they believe in unlimited atonement in theory but limited atonement in practice. It fits well enough with the YRR crowd, even though traditional Calvinists consider it heresy. Having Wax be part of TGP allows them to show diversity of thought without having someone on the project who outright rejects limited atonement. Good move on their part.
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Lydia wrote:
Me too. I’ve been appreciating your insight.
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@ Ken F:
It’s similar to diversity in North Korea. :o)
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@ Lydia:
I don’t remember the site with Calvin’s writings. CCEL is a good start. I just use ol’ Google.
The Ontological Trinity describes how God is in himself (in se). It speaks to the essence or being of God. The Economic Trinity describes how God relates outward from himself toward and within creation. It speaks to what the Eastern Orthodox call the energies of God, his works, will, and attributes.
While I think there is an obvious connection between the ontological and economic Trinity (the economic depends directly on the ontological), it is a mistake to read back into the ontological what we see in the economic. The correlation from economic to ontological is analogical at best, and not exact. That is the category error in ESS. The ESS proponents see an exact mapping from the their ideal in the created order (hierarchy and submission) to the divine persons. They then map that ideal they have projected onto the ontological Trinity back onto the created order. It’s the first step in the double mapping that is the problem. The ESS folks did not invent this logic. It was used by Jurgen Moltmann to map the absence of hierarchy onto the Trinity and back.
Augustinian determinists do not believe Jesus redeemed human nature; they believe he redeemed only certain human persons. Universalists on the other hand believe that Jesus redeemed human nature, and that “deterministically” extends to all human persons. I think in this terminology the decisive third way seems evident: Jesus does indeed redeem human nature, but it is not mechanical; it is instantiated by human persons. Thus the distinction between person and nature is preserved and becomes theologically helpful.
Jim G.
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After processing my way through the myriad of comments on this thread, it’s obvious that mainline Southern Baptists are the intended “Project” of The Gospel Project. If New Calvinists can get SBC’s non-Calvinists to subject themselves to material exclusively written by Calvinists, then they can continue to roll a more indoctrinating wave of literature over them.
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Ken F wrote:
What is so hard or wrong about this to the Calvinists? This is what I have always believed. It is what I see in scripture.
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Max wrote:
Yes! This is so well put.
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@ Ken F:
Thanks for this info about 9Marx.
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@ Bridget:
I cannot accept limited atonement and I AM NOT a universalist!
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Ken F wrote:
Fake and manipulative. These are the same guys who complain about “altar calls” being manipulative. I have been informed by a reliable source who closely monitors such things that the new word is “robust.” Oy. So much fail, as the kids say.
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Jim G. wrote:
very well put.
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Gram3 wrote:
There is a quote (often attributed to Anaïs Nin, but may also go potentially as far back as to the Talmud): “We don’t see things as they are; we see them as we are.”
Similarly, in *Hamlet*, Shakespeare has Hamlet tell Horatio:
We all have gaps and excesses in our paradigm system, which deeply affects how we view the world. Where it goes especially bad is when we project it onto God to give it the clobber-power of a theological covering.
My undergraduate training was in linguistics, and this double-mapping problem reminds me of “back-formation” of new words. You start with an existing word and apply its structure to the root of some other word to create something novel. For instance, elephanted, meaning “to be flattened.” It’s kind of fun to be creative and clever — “Oh, cool! Look, I verbed a noun!” — but the downside is when there is smugness in the cleverosity, and contempt toward those who just don’t get it or weren’t quite smart enough to come up with it first.
With ESS, this view does seem a back-formation concept that starts with human notions of “appropriate” hierarchy, and that gets boomeranged through the Trinity in order to give it “biblical” justification for when it arrives back on earth. Stealtheology, as it were.
Makes me wonder how many doctrines that inherently lead to legalism or licentiousness are the product of double-mapping …
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@ brad/futuristguy:
One way this is done with ESS is to take the Incarnation and map it to eternity past and future. Then they must ignore the Hebrew thinking (not God!) of the position of the first born (begotten son).
They can never explain John 5 where it is written the religious leaders wanted to kill Jesus because He was claiming equality with His Father, Yahweh. They got it.
People make a big deal about the “Son” part without understanding the backdrop and historical implications. There is even a pagan part to this of some pagan rulers claiming to be a son of a god or son of the Divine.
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
Brad, everything we learn in bible courses or seminary says “Don’t do this!” It’s eisegesis, not exegesis, cherry-picking scripture to prove a topical sermon.
The first in the list of Mark Dever’s 9 Marks is the importance of expositional preaching. This however is topical, proof-texting eisegesis, the very antithesis of exposition (or, it proves my point that all sermons are topical anyway, but that’s another matter).
Is the ESS crowd taking 9Marks seriously? Are they two distinct crowds with some overlap? The rules keep changing, and all of this would be merely fascinating as ongoing church history if churches we love weren’t getting damaged.
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@ Ted:
Eisegesis ain’t nice-egesis.
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So is there a way one can find out if their pastor, or better yet, a pastor the church is considering, is a closet Calvinist? Are there some questions that could be asked that would shed a clear picture?
Also, for the past ten years, it appears the hip thing to do is drop the name “baptist” from a church name and make it a cool sounding by using a common noun like “journey,” or “crossroad,” or “pathway.” Nothing wrong with any of it, it just seems interesting to me that erasing the denomination name (even if remaining with the denomination) is part of the trend. Not linking that trend to Calvinism or any other dogma, just an observation.
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Ted wrote:
9Marks is totally ESS. Totally. They think that Female Subordination is a gospel imperative, and there is no need for ESS if you do not need to maintain the ridiculous Equal in Dignity, Value, and Worth but Unequal in Role (which is really Unequal in Being because female is a being category.)
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waking up wrote:
The name change thing away from denominational labels goes back at least to the late 70’s. It is part of the drive to appeal to people turned off by denominational labels. I think a good place to start is to ask what that pastor thinks of Wayne
Grudem’s theology, particularly his views on the Trinity and on soteriology and female “roles.”
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siteseer wrote:
The more I think about it, that verse was VERY important. Elder women are specifically called to teach and should be a force in church and instead they are being excluded. Men, imo, should really not be teaching women how to submit to their husbands or love them or about sex. That was wisdom.
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Ted wrote:
The New Calvinists are masters at this deception. And the unsuspecting pew swallows it hook, line and sinker. I stand amazed at how they stretch and interpret a portion of text in such a way that they introduce reformed presuppositions, agendas, and biases into and onto the text. Dangerous ground.
I watched my neighbor pick cherries yesterday. After a while, he ran out of cherries and quit. Praying that the New Calvinists will do likewise soon.
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@ waking up:
It is not easy if you don’t know what to look for because they don’t announce it. They view the pews sitters as ignorant and must be taught the correct Gospel. If they tell you it is Calvinism you might not listen.
You can usually tell by who they quote and books they read and promote. Also these days what Seminary they attended is a red flag. For instance. SBTS is not a comfortable place for people who don’t buy into the doctrine.
The movement is heavy on gurus. They don’t quote Jesus much. Paul–all the time.
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Gram3 wrote:
And if Pastor (1) calls him “WayneGrudemGOWAYNEGRUDEM!” or (2) maintains a secret Stalker’s Shrine to him or Calvin…
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Lydia wrote:
I’d also add John MacArthur’s The Master’s Seminary graduates as a red flag.
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waking up wrote:
Ask the pastors/elders to tell you about John Calvin.
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Lydia wrote:
Nor SEBTS. Kostenberger is now at NOBTS, if I recall correctly, so that might not be a recommendation, either. Actually, one of the stealthiest and most dogmatic Female Subordinationist guys I know is a graduate of NOBTS. No surprise that he lived off his wife while he was in seminary. OTOH, I also know a guy from NOBTS who is not dogmatically YRR. Yet. It takes someone very courageous to stand against the machine when your livelihood is at stake.
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@ Gram3:
A lot of these preacher boys get their ticket punched at whatever SBC seminary and then drift into reformed theology. It’s new and exciting for a young preacher boy, you know, even if they have to sell their birthright for a bowl of stew.
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Ken F wrote:
Interesting.
I was taught that the scripture “we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers” (1Tim 4:10) referred to the fact that Christ’s death atoned for and removed the penalty of Adam’s sin from all men, so that in that sense he is the Savior of all, but especially of those who believe- and appropriate his atonement to their own sin.
I’ve never looked very hard into these various stances on atonement and am just a beginner at thinking about this, but there are some stances, such as Calvinistic determinism, that are so reprehensible to my spirit, I find it impossible to consider them, so perhaps I am not objective or perhaps it is the Spirit of God guiding me.
In one of the interviews or lectures I heard in the last few months, the speaker asked something like, “How can we claim to be Christians and not wish for the salvation of everyone?”
It’s a crucial question and how can it not reveal something of the heart of the Christian? If I had to choose between the two (not that anyone does) I would be more inclined towards universalism because at least it holds a heart attitude of love towards all.
I have gained a lot listening to this presentation by Edward Fudge, it confirmed my own feeling that the scriptures do not actually teach eternal torture https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHUPpmbTOV4
He asks similar questions and makes very good observations.
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siteseer wrote:
You find them reprehensible because you have good instinct. Sometimes I wish I could just rest in the simplicity of what the Bible teaches. But then I realized how badly I was taught, which made me believe wrongly about what the Bible teaches. I determined that was not a good place to rest. So I’m trying to find a better place to rest, but it’s been a bit of a challenging journey. I think it will be worth it in the end.
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@ siteseer:
Thank you for that link! How refreshing is his approach!
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Celia wrote:
I think you mean John G. Reisinger. He preached at the church my husband and I attended back in the early 90’s. A staunch Calvinist for sure.
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@ siteseer:
https://youtu.be/yEGMzZKB_7k
Check this out at about 15:14 mark. He mentions something Mohler wrote and Fudge is spot on.
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Velour wrote:
They just all should have become Reformed Baptists. That IS a denomination that hs been established for awhile.
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I guess I can see why the drive to conceal Calvinism and infiltrate SBC…I mean at some point with Calvinism, the whole witnessing to the unsaved falls apart (at the end of the day, there wouldn’t be much need would there?), and you have to increase your numbers somehow. So, why not fulfill that within an institution full of Believers with whom you can gradually convince they are elected? They don’t want to infiltrate Presbyterians because that already happened and as a denomination, seems at best, stagnate in growth if not in a downright decline.
I have friends who have come out of Reformed Baptist churches. There wasn’t much growth.
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waking up wrote:
There is another overriding factor for taking over the SBC … it has tremendous assets! A massive organization with seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, 45,000 churches … all financed by SBC’s non-Calvinist majority. It would be a tougher row to hoe if New Calvinism started from scratch. SBC’s YRR may really believe that they have come into the world for such a time as this – to take SBC back to its theological roots – but their leaders have stuff in mind, as well.
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Darlene wrote:
Agreed, but see my last comment. SBC’s reformed big dogs don’t want to simply leave SBC to join another denomination … they want this one and all its stuff!
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Darlene wrote:
Celia was referring to John’s brother Ernest C. Reisinger, a leader in SBC’s Founders Organization of old guard Calvinists. He authored “A Quiet Revolution” to encourage a new reformation within SBC. However, the old boys couldn’t pull off Calvinization of the SBC – they needed the energy of an indoctrinated army of YRR under General Al Mohler to do that.
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Max wrote:
Yes, I think that is evidently what has happened. There have been 1689ers for a long time. But they are a tiny, tiny pond. The SBC and its churches have a huge giving base with lots of assets. Within the ARBCA, 1689ers are not parasites. Within the SBC, the Founders movement is a parasitic movement.
I wonder, in my unChristian moments, if the guys who have taken over a large physical plant have the resources to keep it up when the older people like me stop giving? I am familiar with a church that has seen a huge decline in attendance with almost complete turnover of its congregation. The congregation is filled with young families now, and those “giving units” do not have a lot of discretionary income. And, yes, I did mean discretionary income because we are not theocratic Israel of the OT and every household needs to sustain itself.
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Gram3 wrote:
I fully understand your “unChristian moments.” When I think of the damage these reformed boys are doing to the denomination I have been a member of for 60+ years, I think unChristian thoughts of whooping up on some of them and telling God someone else did it! In regard to the New Calvinist rebels running out of resources to keep the machinery going, I am seeing this on a small scale at a couple of churches taken over by the young whippersnappers. They came in like a bull in a china shop after lying their way into the pulpit, planted reformed belief and practice, and ran off all the “traditionalists.” They subsequently learned that the money also left with those folks and their new membership of 20s-30s ain’t got much dough. So they are left holding the bag on church debt and struggling to keep the lights on. Consequences.
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Max wrote:
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waking up wrote:
Calvinism, from the get-go, has never had much a positive reputation. It has always been resisted by those with any spiritual sense about them.
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