Mahaney Calls for Churches to Defend their Pastors

“Your pastors are called to watch over your souls. It is your soul that is most important to us. It is your soul that is our main concern.”

C.J. Mahaney (April 17, 2016 sermon)

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=4031&picture=holy-bibleHoly Bible

Tomorrow will be one month since Together for the Gospel (T4G) 2016 began. You may recall that it was on the first day of the conference that Al Mohler lauded his close friend C.J. Mahaney in front of a crowd of around 10,000.  Mohler's attempted joke boomeranged through the blogosphere, bonking him on the head in the aftermath.  Dee wrote about it here

Obviously, Mohler didn't foresee such an adverse reaction; however, we definitely could have predicted it. wink

For further background information, we recommend an article that appeared in The Daily Beast entitled Pastor accused of covering up abuse returns to spotlight.

What we found particularly fascinating about the T4G leaders was their indifference to the controversy swirling around Mahaney, despite the negative press leading up to the conference and the protest that took place outside the KFC YUM! Center on the first day of the event.  Perhaps even more interesting has been C.J. Mahaney's focus and demeanor in the aftermath of T4G.  As a case in point, he attracted quite a bit of media attention with the first sermon he delivered in the wake of the conference which he entitled A Happy Day, based on Hebrews 13:17.  Here is that Bible verse.

 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

Now that C.J. Mahaney is a Southern Baptist pastor, the Baptist News is definitely taking note as evidenced by this news story — C.J. Mahaney says churches should defend their pastors.  Here is an excerpt from that article:

Fresh off an invitation to speak at a major pastor’s conference that stirred up memories of an alleged child sex-abuse cover-up at his former church, Pastor C.J. Mahaney reminded members of Sovereign Grace Church in Louisville, Ky., of their biblical mandate to stand by “God’s man” in his Sunday sermon on April 17.

Preaching from Hebrews 13:17, “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account,” Mahaney said one responsibility of church membership is “a joyful disposition to trust and protect the pastoral team.”

“Any slanderous comment about the pastoral team should be challenged, and if necessary resolved,” Mahaney said. “Why? Because the pastors are just sensitive souls, because pastors are so sensitive? No. That protection is needed in order to preserve the trust, in order to protect the unity of this church. That’s why that’s needed ultimately, for the advance of the gospel from this church.”

Slanderous comment?  Can there be any doubt that Mahaney is now going on the offensive because he feels vindicated by Mohler's endorsement, by the loyalty of his T4G colleagues, and by the applause of ten thousand Neo-Cals?

Later in his sermon, Mahaney launched into his 'watching over your souls' mantra.  The Baptist News article included a refrain that those who attended Covenant Life Church (and other SGM churches) likely heard ad nauseam, specifically:

“Your pastors are called to watch over your souls,” he said. “It is your soul that is most important to us. It is your soul that is our main concern.”

“Our care for you is not simply or primarily about the present,” he said. “No, actually it’s informed by the future. … Our concern today is to give all of our energy to you, to serving you, watching over you, to prepare your soul for that final day. Our concern is with your soul in relation to heaven and hell.”

Finally, the Baptist news piece ended with this:

As Mahaney said some church members are “uncomfortable” with the language of obedience and submission for many reasons, including “a bad experience” with an authoritarian pastor.

“If that has been your experience in the past, I am so sorry,” Mahaney said. “I want to make real clear — that isn’t going to happen to you here.”

We are fairly sure that many members and former members of CLC would say they had a bad experience with an authoritarian pastor.  So much for their (former) pastor caring for their souls… 

Mahaney's sermon topic following T4G also caught the attention of those across the pond.  Christian Today posted an article similar to the one in the Baptist News.  That article begins as follows:

Days after his presence at the Together for the Gospel conference was heavily criticised, CJ Mahaney preached about the biblical mandate for churches to defend their pastors.

T4G was heavily criticised for allowing Mahaney, one of its founders and now pastor of Louisville's Sovereign Grace Church, to preach because of previous accusations that he and other leaders of Covenant Life Church (CLC) in Gaithersburg, Maryland, were complicit in covering up crimes committed by its youth leader Nathaniel Morales.

On Sunday, days after the controversy, Mahaney preached from Hebrews 13:17: "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account."

He said that church members should have "a joyful disposition to trust and protect the pastoral team.

"Any slanderous comment about the pastoral team should be challenged, and if necessary resolved," Mahaney said. "Why? Because the pastors are just sensitive souls, because pastors are so sensitive? No. That protection is needed in order to preserve the trust, in order to protect the unity of this church. That's why that's needed ultimately, for the advance of the gospel from this church."

It is certainly worth noting that less than a year ago an article written by C.J. Mahaney entitled The Pastor and Personal Criticism was uploaded to the internet.  Here is a screen shot of the conclusion, but we hope you will take a look at Mahaney's other points.

http://www.cjmahaney.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/The-Pastor-and-Personal-Criticism.pdf

Here Mahaney readily admits that he has failed to respond humbly to correction; however, in his April 17th sermon he talks about pastors being slandered and that such claims must be challenged (presumably by the congregation).

In all sincerity, we believe it is Mahaney and his fellow pastors at Sovereign Grace Church in Louisville who should be concerned about their own souls. 

Comments

Mahaney Calls for Churches to Defend their Pastors — 410 Comments


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    As I am on this blog right now, I am in real life: Number One! Yeah! Woo! 🙂

    (I’m actually not that self confident. I’m faking it.)


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    After having read the blog post.

    Mahaney sermonizes that he thinks preachers should be respected.
    That sermonizing looks pretty self-serving, and to quote Gomer Pyle: “Surprise, surprise, surprise.”

    Which you can hear Gomer say himself here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TnkJ8_BmSI

    Mahaney mentioned wanting to “advance the Gospel.” I think what looks like his covering up of child abuse is acting as an impediment to the Gospel, since it is likely turning off a lot of Non-Christians and not making Christianity look palatable to ex- Christians.


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    And Tree slides in for second place! (Maybe if I don’t write too lengthily) “Surprise, surprise, surprise” reminds me of another fitting Gomer Pyle-ism: “Shazam!” Methinks the pastors who are preaching “members, obey your pastoral team” are studiously ignoring the Shazam part of “as ones who give account for you”. If they are really going to have to “give an account” God is not fooled by blame shifting and accusations of bitterness and rebellion. He knows what has happened and what is happening. Another oft quoted phrase I endured during my years in this culture was “rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft”, which comes from some OT passage. It was an effective put down and shut down if you started to ask an uncomfortable question or made an astute observation of something you thought was not right. Any comment other than, “yes, you are my divinely appointed pastor and you are the voice of God to me” was rebellion. And for one more Gomer-ism, I hear, “For shame, for shame, for shame.”


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    Can I suggest strong Gnostic elements in this obsession with the soul – almost as the body and this present life is of no importance. Maybe that is why there seems to be this disregard for the abused?

    Besides this perversion of the Bible by taking the verse in Hebrews to an unconscionable end – why does it disgust me profoundly? It is so contrary to the Spirit of Jesus – how can such learned people be so blind?

    The Hairless Wonder continues to preach and teach with no shame or remorse being expressed. This has been enabled by the rest of that self-proclaimed elite.

    Nothing any of us say will make any difference to their behaviour. With the psalmist I’m forced to say “How long O Lord will you let the wicked triumph?”


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    I’m pretty sure what he meant to say is, “We should stand up for single moms. And rape victims. And victims of abuse.” Yeah, I’m pretty sure that’s what he meant to say.


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    “That protection is needed in order to preserve the trust, in order to protect the unity of this church.”
    The absence of contrary voices is not unity especially when it comes by suffocation of the truth. Silence here does not indicate unity but a tolerance for corruption. I find Mahaney and company appalling and those supporting the sham at T4G should be ashamed.

    “advance of the gospel”? Mahaney advances himself while the gospel gets sullied. It should be unbelievable but as Daisy alludes to above, it is not a surprise.


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    Really, I was taught it was the blood of Christ that kept me from going to hell?? So, it really is CJ and my pastor that is keeping me from going to hell?


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    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    Really, I was taught it was the blood of Christ that kept me from going to hell?? So, it really is CJ and my pastor that is keeping me from going to hell?

    🙂


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    Ron Oommen wrote:

    Nothing any of us say will make any difference to their behaviour. With the psalmist I’m forced to say “How long O Lord will you let the wicked triumph?”

    I agree. I believe prayer is powerful and the only thing that will stop this kind of wickedness.

    It is all so EVIL, how can people not see it?


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    __

    Da Good Samaritan:  “Exposing a certain known big dog protected proverbial ‘religious’ new fangled calvinesta minted Southern Baptist  (SBC) pastor?”

    hmmm…

    (Whew!)

    With an ‘alleged’ forty year documented history of covering-up of child sex-abuse? [1]

    huh?

     Obey your SGM/SGC Calvinesta leaders and submit to them, for they keep watchful ‘control’ over your souls as those who will certainly apply the proverbial religious sucker punch to you and pocket all the monetary profits?

    bump.

    Do this proverbial stupid submission SGM/SGC congregational dance with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for them?

    Reap a whirlwind? 

    (many a soul already has…)

    (sadface)

    Any report about this Sovereign Grace Church (SGM/SGC) Louisville, Kentucky pastoral team should be examined extremely , carefully, and closely. (the other SGM/SGC churches as well…)

    Please remove yourself quickly from this unhealthy TGC, T4G, 9 Marks, Acts 29 protected 501(c)3 church environment upon examining the available accumulating, court vetted, litigated, documented evidence. [1]

    Reaching for the Kleenex box…

    You’ll be ‘real’ glad you did!

    (tears)

    “Oh oh oh!
    You Jesus are alive in us,
    Nothing can take Your place,
    Your love has set us free
    In the midst of the darkest night, Yeah ! ” -Alive [2]

    ATB

    Sopy
    __
    [1] see: 

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/category/sovereign-grace-ministries/

    http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/the-stories/

    https://www.scribd.com/user/86813507/sgmwikileaks

    [2] Hillsong : “Alive”
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qEvEVALLjNQ


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    what has Al Mohler released on the SBC ???

    Is Mahaney the ‘Trump’ of a new SBC ???


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    Chris wrote:

    Ron Oommen wrote:

    Nothing any of us say will make any difference to their behaviour. With the psalmist I’m forced to say “How long O Lord will you let the wicked triumph?”

    I agree. I believe prayer is powerful and the only thing that will stop this kind of wickedness.

    It is all so EVIL, how can people not see it?

    Exactly. Blind Freddy and his dog can see this for what it is. Why are these people unable to?


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    Ron Oommen wrote:

    Can I suggest strong Gnostic elements in this obsession with the soul – almost as the body and this present life is of no importance. Maybe that is why there seems to be this disregard for the abused?

    Yes. It is dualism. Mahaney is one of the philosopher Kings who has been enlightened to lead the ignorant masses.


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    "Now that C.J. Mahaney is a Southern Baptist pastor, the Baptist News is definitely taking note."

    Dee revealed in her 9/16/15 post “Brother CJ Mahaney: He’s Done Gone and Joined the Southern Baptists!” that on SBC.net, Mahaney’s SGCL is included there in the list of SB churches. Additionally, Mahaney is named there as a Southern Baptist Minister, along with Mahaney’s brother-in-law Gary Ricucci and son-in-law Brian Chesemore.

    Also, Deb’s research has revealed the big money that’s exchanged hands between Al Mohler and his brother CJ.

    We know Mahaney ran away with the SGM operation to Louisville to be near Mohler, where students of the SG Pastor’s College took classes at the SBTS with the President’s blessing. Mahaney’s church states on their About page that, “Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville also partners with the Southern Baptist Convention for the purposes of training and gospel mission.”

    I’m repeating these facts to draw attention to a curious little interchange that took place between Mohler and Mahaney at T4G 2016. It occurred during the “Day In Review.” Take a listen from 03:50-04:20 http://t4g.org/media/2016/04/day-in-review/

    MAHANEY: And Decker says, speaking of Calvin’s sermons on Job, that that’s where his pastoral pulse is most pronounced. And these sermons are unedited, so that you will find that ‘pastoral pulse’ in those sermons in the Old Testament in a way you won’t find in the Institutes.

    MOHLER: See, that’s just your inner Southern Baptist (laughter) – the illiteration: “Pastoral Pulse. The Perfect Priority of the Pastoral Pulse.” (laughter)

    MAHANEY: I don’t think I have any inner Southern Baptist, I’m not sure what what you’re talking about there.

    MOHLER: It’s just aching to get out. (laughter)

    If Mahaney doesn’t have any inner Southern Baptist, then what are we to make of his close identification with them? If there’s no “inner Southern Baptist” then why is Mahaney a Southern Baptist Minister? Why is his church listed as a Southern Baptist Church? Why has his Pastor’s College “partnered with the SBC for the purposes of training and gospel mission”? What is that all about if Mahaney doesn’t carry “any inner Southern Baptist” within him?

    Moreover, why have Southern Baptist’s Dever & Mohler been so keen on providing Mahaney sanctuary, and granting him the right hand of fellowship?

    These guys still don’t have a clue. They’re going to wake up one day and wonder what hit them. They’re too corrupt and compromised to listen to guys within their own ranks like Peter Lumpkins, and it’s going to cost them. But they can’t say we didn’t try to warn them.


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    In our tradition the primary role and responsibility of the priest/pastor is the care of souls. I have said it before but here I go again: ‘CJ is not all the way protestant.’

    That said, I come down on side of the idea of the care of souls, but then ‘I am not all the way protestant either.’


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    Shameless. They are utterly shameless.


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    “Even though the Leader himself is completely nonviolent, he urges you to be as violent as you like in capturing the Simpsons.”


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    Ron Oommen wrote:

    Blind Freddy and his dog can see this for what it is. Why are these people unable to?

    Because they do not want to see it. That would mean that they were wrong to promote Mahaney. Remember the timeline. Mahaney was successful back in the 90’s promoting his brand. Who had heard of Dever then outside of Founders? Mohler was had not yet totally consolidated his power in the SBC nor had Duncan in the PCA. But Together, they make a great team for promotion of themselves and their System. Mahaney the uber successful salesman, Dever the Serious Theologian with Cambridge Cred, Mohler the SBC power broker, and Duncan the rising star in the PCA. That is the formula at the turn of the 21st century that has ultimately brought us to T4g in 2016. I suspect that they had some venture capital funding from Crossway and Lifeway, and that may be yet another reason for their cohesion.

    Back then, no one knew that Mahaney was going to implode a few short years later. I believe that these men envied the success of his “ministry” model and also his theology of pastoral power and Authoritarianism with a capital A. They have to hang Together or their legacies as Great Men will hang separately. And Crossway and Lifeway will lose sales.

    Their twisting of this clobber verse in Hebrews is on par with their twisting of the gender clobber verses. Equally absurd and, as Daisy said, equally self serving. I imagine that bookstores in the Gospel Glitterati franchises have made more space for CJ since his public rehabilitation began. We expect this from politicians, and maybe that should tell us something.

    As a lifelong conservative Evangelical Baptist, this grieves me greatly.


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    Daisy wrote:

    After having read the blog post.

    Mahaney sermonizes that he thinks preachers should be respected.
    That sermonizing looks pretty self-serving…

    As one of my old pastors said in a somewhat similar context, “Respect is EARNED.”


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    And when I say that respect should be earned, it should be earned in the good old fashioned NT Apostolic way – by self sacrificial service to the least and lowest, in practical and non-showy ways. Of course, that’s not going to get you big-ticket speaking gigs and fat book contracts, but that’s not the point of being a shepherd, right?

    …RIGHT?!?


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    On Sunday, days after the controversy, Mahaney preached from Hebrews 13:17: “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account.”

    It’s hard for me not to see this as an in-your-face to the protesters and everyone criticizing him on the internet. Hey look, he still survives the controversy! Within his church, the adults are probably aware of what’s been going on, and he knows it. I’m sure it’s to his advantage to preach about obedience and overlooking faults in a pastor as the higher, more spiritual path.


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    I remember when sermons were about Jesus.
    And not about my pastor.

    About Jesus’ shed blood.
    And not about my pastor’s supposed sacrifice in “serving” me.

    About Jesus’ love for me.
    And not about the manner in which I am supposed to show love to my pastor.


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    Eeyore wrote:

    but that’s not the point of being a shepherd, right?
    …RIGHT?!?

    A problem here is that the issue of what exactly is the point of being a shepherd has not been chiseled in stone so various ‘leaders’ twist it to mean anything that they want it to mean, apparently provided that it is to their personal advantage to do so. So some seem to say that the shepherd shepherds souls, others say that the shepherd rules the totality of some poor sheep’s life, and others say that if the sheep have the Spirit there is no need for shepherds. Various opinions here in the past have seemed to be saying that the idea itself of being a shepherd is not applicable to the churches today.


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    “Your pastors are called to watch over your souls,” he said. “It is your soul that is most important to us. It is your soul that is our main concern.”

    “Our care for you is not simply or primarily about the present,” he said. “No, actually it’s informed by the future. … Our concern today is to give all of our energy to you, to serving you, watching over you, to prepare your soul for that final day. Our concern is with your soul in relation to heaven and hell.”

    If by “the final day” he means the last judgement, actually, we will be reunited with our bodies at that point. However, I’m picking up a Gothard-like disregard of what happens to Christians’ bodies in this life. I read the screenshots of a certain wisdom booklet on the Recovering Grace blog, as well as the outcome of the GRACE investigation at BJU, and this looks like the same type of thinking.

    We are not just souls who happen to temporarily reside in bodies, we are unified beings according to God’s design; this is part of what makes death such a tragedy. While Jesus was demonstrating His divinity, He cared about people’s physical needs, about those who were being mistreated by those in authority, and about those who were subject to death itself. I understand viewing a person’s ultimate destiny as the most important thing, but we were originally meant to be whole persons wherever we are, and too many protestants forget that.


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    C.J. Mahaney:

    “He said that church members should have “a joyful disposition to trust and protect the pastoral team.”

    and

    “That protection is needed in order to preserve the trust, in order to protect the unity of this church. That’s why that’s needed ultimately, for the advance of the gospel from this church.”

    Translation: the sheep are to protect the shepherd, not vice versa, and of course obey him at all times. The shepherd watches over your souls; you watch over his safety. The gospel depends on it.


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    Ron Oommen wrote:

    Exactly. Blind Freddy and his dog can see this for what it is. Why are these people unable to?

    Because they personally benefit from not seeing.


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    NJ wrote:

    Translation: the sheep are to protect the shepherd, not vice versa, and of course obey him at all times. The shepherd watches over your souls; you watch over his safety. The gospel depends on it.

    And the shepherd’s mouth is watering for mutton.


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    NJ wrote:

    I understand viewing a person’s ultimate destiny as the most important thing, but we were originally meant to be whole persons wherever we are, and too many protestants forget that.

    Good comment, but let me mention this last sentence especially. I think that the importance and role and ministry of the laity is grossly neglected in some protestant traditions. That would include lay men as well as lay women. The work and impact of deacons has been minimized for example. Lay leadership has been re-assigned to an ever increasing staff of the newly minted ‘pastors’ way too much. But then, if the leadership is limited to the staff, and if the staff depend on that job for salary, then they can be controlled by whoever signs the check. And the laity are supposed to think and do what they are instructed to think and do which of course includes throw it in the plate. This is a distortion of the biblical model of church.


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    When Paul warned Timothy to “Beware of Alexander the copper smith; he did me a great deal of harm” was he slandering Alexander’s reputation? No, he was protecting the young minister, as well as the people of God from Alexander’s influence.

    “Today’s church cannot remain faithful if it tolerates false teachers and leaves their teachings uncorrected and unconfronted” (Albert Mohler).


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    I have so many thoughts after reading this post – where do I begin? CJ wants claims against pastors resolved…because he’s resolved all the post against him and the pastors under him during his time at CLC?!!! And he seriously thinks his main goal is caring for the souls of those in the church, when he couldn’t give a flying fig about those people, as evidenced by his consistently standoffish and unfriendly manner?


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    Unbelievable!


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    Interestingly enough, Jared Wilson (of TGC, and no, I am not a fan of his or theirs) wrote a post yesterday entitled Troubleshooting the Celebrity Pastor Problem. He doesn’t go far enough in his thoughts or recommendations, but the points he makes are a great start.

    Interestingly, I found the post via Todd Pruitt’s latest installment at Ministry of Spin. While he makes the point that Carl Trueman has been pointing this problem out for many years only to be ignored and pigeon-holed, what I also noticed is that Pruitt says Wilson made five recommendations, but when I read Wilson’s post there were only 4. Did Pruitt miscount, or did Wilson (possible due to outside pressure) delete one?


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    “And the shepherd’s mouth is watering for mutton.”

    Don’t forget the nice, tender lamb.

    And if the senior shepherd suddenly decides to take off for greener pastures to gather a new flock (and more $$$), that’s his prerogative. That’s not just a comment about Mahaney, but the long standing pattern of starting new seminary grads in little country churches, where they hope to eventually get called to bigger churches that can actually pay them a viable wage. I wonder if Mahaney has had to go bi-vocational, or if he’s still living high on the tithes, both past and present.


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    On pastors…First let me say, I am very thankful that God did not call me to be a pastor (see James 3:1, among others). That is why prayer for our pastors and church leaders is so important. If we look at the Old Testament, it usually wasn’t the rank and file Israelite that either caused the people to sin or led them into sin.

    However, as such, pastors can be and when necessary should be held responsible.I believe Jim Putman, in his book, Church Is A Team Sport, published by Baker Books, 2008, has an excellent picture of what a pastor should be. In Ch. 6, A Coach Worth Following, Putman looks at the role, responsibilities, reprimands, and rewards that accompany this calling. Especially, the pages 98 to 105 are worth everyone’s time to seek out, read, digest, and try to incorporate.

    Putman writes in this section, taken from Ezekiel 34:2-10; “We see God judging the shepherds because they failed to fulfill their responsibility–they had not fed the sheep….” He continues on pg 102, “Most of us think this means writing better sermons, but you have heard the true statement that ‘people don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care.'”

    I am very thankful for my current pastor. He is a shepherd in the fullest sense. But I know what it’s like when my pastor (past experiences) isn’t God’s image of a shepherd. To those whose pastor isn’t a shepherd, please don’t give up on THE SHEPHERD or on His church. If necessary, find another church. Keep asking THE SHEPHERD to guide you and, in time–sometimes quickly and sometimes longer–THE SHEPHERD will lead you to the green pastures and still waters that your very being, your soul, is craving.


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    I think it was “New Members” Sunday that day Mahaney preached that message. I’m sure it was already planned and on the schedule.

    CJ said in the *choke* sermon *cough* (excuse me, I need a sip of water, that’s better) that *cough, cough, cough* preaching (another sip) to his little flock is much, much more of a privilege *choke, spurt, hives, rash, itching, swelling* (sorry, I’m having an allergic reaction) than preaching before 10,000 like he “and the guys” just did at T4G.

    And to demonstrate the stupendous honor he so exquisitely enjoys with such effervescence, and after putting hours and hours and hours of thought into it, Mahaney rolls out a message from the archives.

    I’m sure months before this, while looking at his upcoming schedule, and knowing he’d need to put extra energy into faking it for three straight days at T4G, he thought about assigning the New Members message to one of the other SBC Ministers he has there on staff at Sovereign Grace Baptist Church of Louisville, but he labored intensively over the task himself. I’m guessing he didn’t anticipate the attention his message would receive, and if so, people would focus on the burgeoning growth of his church.

    By the way, I heard Carolyn Mahaney mixed and served the kool-aid herself at the New Members Reception, and that everyone enjoyed all the new flavors: Pink Swimmingo, Triple Awesome Grape, Eerie Orange, Great Blue-Dini and Scary Black Cherry. Quite a variety! A few people were interviewed afterwards and said, “She’s always given us the standards, but, today, Carolyn went overboard!”


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    Burwell asked:

    Did Pruitt miscount, or did Wilson (possible due to outside pressure) delete one?

    Yes, Wilson wrote a 5th one in a brief moment of lucidity, which was later deleted.

    Fortunately this guy kindly retrieved it! Thank you for serving Jesse L. You deserve a leftover bag of swag from T4G 2016!

    https://twitter.com/ReformedintheQT/status/730404445306114048


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    okrapod,

    Megachurches especially have a pastor of every-permutation-of-ministry-possible instead of planting more daughter churches. This issue came up in the comment thread of Jared Wilson’s post. I’ve long thought that thousands of people is too big for one church, in spite of the concentration of resources.


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    Wade Burleson discusses Hebrews 13:17 in his book “Fraudulent Authority”. Don’t want to give away any spoilers, but his conclusions are quite different than Mahaney’s.


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    Burwell wrote:

    Interestingly enough, Jared Wilson (of TGC

    That is enough to take what he writes with a huge grain of salt. Would anyone outside his family or small church even know his name if he were not a participant in the Gospel Glitterati enterprise? I think perhaps not. When he disappears into the obscurity and hard work of pastoring a non-Gospel Glitterati franchise operation, then maybe we can believe what he says about the the Problem of Celebrity Pastors and his proposed solutions. Until then, I believe that he is writing a blog post which professes deep concern about something which benefits him. The benefit to him of writing said blog post is to profess concern about something which really is concerning while not actually doing what he is prescribing. Deflection is one word for that. There are others.


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    @ Burwell:
    I should have added that I appreciate your perspectives which you do not provide here often enough for my taste. You should strive for greater Kingdom Impact For The Gospel. 😉


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    okrapod wrote:

    I think that the importance and role and ministry of the laity is grossly neglected in some protestant traditions. That would include lay men as well as lay women. The work and impact of deacons has been minimized for example. Lay leadership has been re-assigned to an ever increasing staff of the newly minted ‘pastors’ way too much. But then, if the leadership is limited to the staff, and if the staff depend on that job for salary, then they can be controlled by whoever signs the check.

    “Pastors” used to be called “Priests”;
    “Lead Pastors” used to be called Bishops, Archbishops, Cardinals, etc.
    “Staff” used to be called Deacons, Subdeacons, Monks, Nuns, etc.
    Wasn’t the RCC having a Priestly Caste one of the really big beefs of the Reformation?
    Guess they were just mad THEY weren’t the Priestly Caste…

    And the laity are supposed to think and do what they are instructed to think and do which of course includes throw it in the plate.

    In Trad-Catholic jargon, this is called “Pay, Pray, and OBEY.”


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    I think it was “New Members” Sunday that day Mahaney preached that message. I’m sure it was already planned and on the schedule.

    Like “Party Commissar of Spontaneous People’s Demonstrations” in the old USSR?


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    NJ wrote:

    “And the shepherd’s mouth is watering for mutton.”
    Don’t forget the nice, tender lamb.

    In full Flowering…
    With Loooong… Waaaaavy… Hair…


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    @ John:
    This certainly applies to those among us who are truly called and involved in pastoring.

    There are those, however, who are not called and not truly involved in the church. The Bible warns us time and again to watch out for those who would come in among us, pretending to be one of us, but are really false brethren. There’s a distinction between someone who is honestly seeking to know more about God, and someone who aligns themselves so closely with the truth as to clothe themselves with it, and hide among the sheep as a wolf. They are identified in Scripture as evil doers who must be silenced, for they end up upsetting whole households by teaching things they have no business teaching, and they do so motivated primarily by greed.

    I know we all want to believe the best, and give people the benefit of the doubt. But that time has long since come and gone with CJ Mahaney. The Bible doesn’t instruct us to tolerate and feel “sad” for people like this. It says they are to be silenced, which clearly means they are not to be handed a microphone and given the stage. They are deceptive individuals who are selfishly motivated, who are not grounded in the truth, who are most likely unregenerate, who cause damage and bring shame upon the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    To love God is to hate evil. This is not a matter that calls us to look the other way. There’s no doubt the light of the Spirit has worked to expose this man and the deeds he’s kept hidden in the darkness. If he were innocent, then we would see a demonstration of the kind of courage and strength that accompanies and sustains, by His grace, the righteous.

    That’s not what is being discerned in the man being discussed here, and there are hundreds of families and individuals who can attest to this man has caused. We can judge the fruit.

    It will be just as difficult to remove CJ Mahaney from the stage in church life as it has been to remove Bill Clinton from American public life. In Bill Clinton’s case, where the courts and the American people left off, it appears something akin to Parkinson’s disease is doing the rest. We’ll have to see what becomes with Mahaney. It can’t be good.

    These people pull and drag others down as they go. They do not repent of their sin.


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    @ Former CLCer:

    “… when he couldn’t give a flying fig about those people, as evidenced by his consistently standoffish and unfriendly manner?”
    ++++++++++

    well that struck me. his personna is one of cheerful, fun, friendliness. he seems to be a ‘close friend’ (the engineered quality of that label is starting to bug me) to a number of his peers. but sounds like at ground level at ground zero, that’s not the case


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    Max wrote:

    “Today’s church cannot remain faithful if it tolerates false teachers and leaves their teachings uncorrected and unconfronted” (Albert Mohler).

    Gram3 wrote:

    Burwell wrote:
    Interestingly enough, Jared Wilson (of TGC
    That is enough to take what he writes with a huge grain of salt.

    As noted in an earlier comment thread, TGC affiliates often publish thoughts of clarity that seem helpful to the casual reader, but are damning in the context of recent events in Christendom. That damning message is: “The problem is everyone else since we, TGC, are clearly in the right.”


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    @ Christiane:
    No that was Driscoll. Mahaney is the Hillary Clinton of the SBC. ;o)


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    Burwell wrote:

    Interestingly enough, Jared Wilson (of TGC, and no, I am not a fan of his or theirs) wrote a post yesterday entitled Troubleshooting the Celebrity Pastor Problem. He doesn’t go far enough in his thoughts or recommendations, but the points he makes are a great start.

    Dee plans to address this tomorrow. 🙂


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    @ okrapod:
    Do you have a good definition for “soul”? Is there any way to define it leaving our minds out of the equation?


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    @ Gram3:
    This is it. Exactly.

    Add to the mix this is about money, legacy and position. No way they are going to mess with that. And it is not hard to become tone-deaf and extremely arrogant when you have been in an insulated successful bubble for years with your peers and followers praising you everywhere you go.

    Their proof all is well is that T4G is growing not dying.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Yes, I’d say something like that, pretty sure, almost, but not quite, maybe like 85%? Or maybe I’ll Putin for 100%. How’s that? 😛


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    Burwell wrote:

    Interestingly enough, Jared Wilson (of TGC, and no, I am not a fan of his or theirs) wrote a post yesterday entitled Troubleshooting the Celebrity Pastor Problem. He doesn’t go far enough in his thoughts or recommendations, but the points he makes are a great start.

    Isn’t this a bit like Goebbels writing on the problems with authoritarian mass movements? Wilson has spent most of his career trying to get to the inner ring. My guess is that if names were named he would insist they are not a celebrity.


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    “It’s deja vu all over again!” -Yogi Berra


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    Chemie wrote:

    As noted in an earlier comment thread, TGC affiliates often publish thoughts of clarity that seem helpful to the casual reader, but are damning in the context of recent events in Christendom. That damning message is: “The problem is everyone else since we, TGC, are clearly in the right.”

    I personally think it is a tactic. It is the way they get in front of an issue. They did the exact same thing with child abuse after all the sgm Scandals.

    Sort of like …if we claim to be against thd bad something then we can’t possibly be that bad something. This tactic Works more than people think.


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    @ Paula Rice:
    That point #5 sounds like an invention of Jesse L’s, not from Jared Wilson’s article. Jesse L and his pal Chortles Weakly are notable reformed Twitter-critics/lampooners of TGC.


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    I read this early this morning and wrote a reply. However, after editing out the profanity, not much was left … so … after a cooling off period, I’ll try again…

    An unbiased and un-churched expanded translation of Hebrews 13:17 reads, “Be persuaded that your civic leaders are looking out for your lives. They will give an account for how they watched out for you. Your cooperation makes their jobs easier, and that is to your benefit.”

    I don’t see this verse as referring to church leaders at all, since the institution of “church” hadn’t even been invented when the letter to the Hebrews was written.

    There is no way one of these snakes has any authority over my “soul”!


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    Lydia wrote:

    They did the exact same thing with child abuse after all the sgm Scandals.

    And then there was the time back in about 2011 or 2012 when they were all so very, very *concerned* about wife abuse *after* John Piper accidentally told the truth when he said a wife should be willing to endure her husband’s abuse “for a season.” Winsomely and joyfully, I presume, and for the “sake of the Gospel” or something. They were all about how what John Piper plainly said is plainly not what he meant. Or something, since it is never quite plain what John Piper is saying.

    And I would like to emphasize that there are more women than we suspect who are abusers of their husbands and children. Yes, even physical abuse. Very few men will admit it, however, and we need to be careful we do not forget them. Just so my comment is not misunderstood.


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    Burwell wrote:

    Interestingly, I found the post via Todd Pruitt’s latest installment at Ministry of Spin.

    Was this a Freudian slip or intentional poke at the name of their website: Mortification of Spin.
    Regardless, I found humor in it. Thanks.


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    Uncle Dad wrote:

    I don’t see this verse as referring to church leaders at all, since the institution of “church” hadn’t even been invented when the letter to the Hebrews was written.

    Can you explain what you mean a little bit more. Jesus did mention his intention to build his church. There does seem to be something that Paul set out to demolish and which was identifiable at Damascus when he staggered in. So, maybe you can say a little more about how you came to your conclusion?


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    Chemie wrote:

    The problem is everyone else since we, TGC, are clearly in the right.

    I agree. In fact, I’d say this is basically the root of the tree, more or less. Since we’re focused on Mahaney here (who used to be a TGC member) he used this tactic assiduously to the point of brainwashing. The groupthink was so distinct, and compliance so superintended, that genuine growth, as prescribed by the church, was impossible. Quite the opposite, in fact. The true meat of the gospel was thrown into a grinder with other ingredients, and came out looking like some kind of weird manmeat. And people throughout SGM willingly feasted on it, week after week, and no one asked, “This is steak? I thought steak was delicious, with a nice baked potato on the side? When did it turn into the tasteless tofu this guy serves us alongside these wet noodles?”

    The Mahaney’s created a brand of the gospel that they created themselves, and then assumed their gospel gave them the right to define every area of your life. Faith was something you exercised in conformity to their blenderized concoction, and if you step out of line, there’s always someone there to tattle.

    There’s no doubt Mahaney’s pronunciations of being “The Worst Sinner” was to encourage you to think you were The Constant Sinner. If he’s the Worst, and he’s the Best, than what does that make you?

    And isn’t that the Good News? That you’re a sinner, and probably the worst sinner? Yes, Mahaney made sure any meat that got added to the mixture was thoroughly and completely drained of The Blood.


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    @ Chemie:
    Yeah, it’s an invention. Sorry for any confusion. I was being totally sarcastic.


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    @ okrapod:
    The organized “church” did not exist when the New Testament was written. Constantine resurrected the Babylonian religion for the purpose of controlling people. What better way to gain control over people than to convince them that you personally have control over their eternal destinies?

    I discuss this in greater detail in my blog at http://wayneharmon.org/2016/02/29/the-absurdity-of-church


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    Well, if Mahaney simply *claims* not to be an authoritarian pastor, that means he isn’t, right? Ho hum.

    On the ‘slander’/let’s protect pastors point, I was going over a local church website after their pastor got in trouble and was dismissed/resigned/is being brought up on charges…they have a section on ‘biblical perspectives’ of church discipline (because it has infiltrated everything apparently!).

    So according to them, you the congregant can be brought up on discipline for a list of things (including ‘unwillingness to repent’ and ‘a disorderly life’ particularly unwillingness to work). But they have a separate sections for pastors/elders that says they need 2-3 witnesses to protect them against false of vindictive accusations!!! Why does this only apply to pastors, and not the church membership, because I don’t recall that specified in Matthew anywhere.


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    Uncle Dad wrote:

    An unbiased and un-churched expanded translation of Hebrews 13:17 reads, “Be persuaded that your civic leaders are looking out for your lives. They will give an account for how they watched out for you. Your cooperation makes their jobs easier, and that is to your benefit.”

    Yes it is interesting to do a scholarly project on the problems with the translation of that proof text within the pericope!

    As to the local church question, where does it tell us it is referring to local church servants anyway? It doesn’t. “Leader” here does not have the typical Western Gentile meaning but more like: ‘those who have gone before’

    Putting aside the local church question, we have several clues it means something else altogether such as it being written specifically to “Hebrew believers” and the constant references to the faithfulness of Hebrew leaders from the Old Testament.

    There are many contextual clues and historical clues that Hebrew converts were being singled out for persecution and were leaving the faith. Would a Gentile need to be reminded that Jesus is greater than Moses? And it reads like a who’s who of Hebrew courage and faithfulness.

    With all that said I am more concerned with Hebrews 10:26-31! And I suggest Mahaney take it seriously! :o)


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    @ Uncle Dad:
    Yes, a big portion of Christian history is an evil bloody dictatorial mess. Looking forward to reading your blog!


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    @ Gram3:
    Husband abuse rarely gets reported. But some of my child advocate contacts have mentioned that more and more mothers are being charged with child abuse/neglect.


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    Quoting Mahaney:

    “Any slanderous comment about the pastoral team should be challenged, and if necessary resolved,” Mahaney said. ”

    What ‘slanderous’ comments? Did Mahaney produce a list of these ‘slanderous’ comments that are being uttered ‘about the pastoral team’?

    Or does Mahaney define ‘slanderous’ as any utterance that is less than positive? Which, of course leaves his obedient pewishioners completely incapable of utilizing any personal discernment regarding truth.

    No need to exercise discernment – because anything less-than-positive about Mahaney and cohorts is immediately thrown into the “slander’ bin.

    How are the pewishioners supposed to “if necessary, resolve”?

    And the pewishioners will base their ‘challenges’ upon what foundation? It’s not as if the pew-peons have/had any special knowledge about the various Mahaney/SGM issues. So, they aren’t in a position to challenge the supposed slanderous comments of falsity with actual truth or facts. All they are left with is a blind, robotic defense mechanism. The equivalent of “is not!” observed in preschoolers.

    Quoting Mahaney:

    “Why? Because the pastors are just sensitive souls, because pastors are so sensitive? No. That protection is needed in order to preserve the trust, in order to protect the unity of this church.”

    This is just complete, utter bullocks.

    Preserve ‘the trust’? Trust in what? In whom?

    Always, always, always – these authoritarian leaders always place responsibility upon the pewishioners and never upon themselves.

    Did he confess to breaking the unity of the church when he high-tailed it out INSTEAD of actually walking through the disciplinary process he had instituted and often applied to others?

    Did Mahaney confess to breaking trust as a result of his sins? Blackmail, pride, mishandling sexual abuse, harsh leadership, deceit, additional abuse of abuse victims, manipulation, hypocrisy?

    No?

    No.

    Why is it that false teachers can so completely ignore their own sins and its consequences, while insisting on focusing on the so-called sins and consequences of the people who expose those sins?

    Who breaks trust and destroys unity? The abuser who abuses, or the abused who finally speaks out and reveals the abuse going on?

    “That’s why that’s needed ultimately, for the advance of the gospel from this church.”

    What Mahaney advances from his church is not the Gospel – what he advances is Mahaney.


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    Remnant wrote:

    I remember when sermons were about Jesus.
    And not about my pastor.

    About Jesus’ shed blood.
    And not about my pastor’s supposed sacrifice in “serving” me.

    About Jesus’ love for me.
    And not about the manner in which I am supposed to show love to my pastor.

    I took a peaceout from church for a while because of a few things…but one of them was that all the sermons seemed to be about the pastor. The pastors kids. The pastors wife. Stuff the pastor did that weekend. The pastors mens group golf outing. I think somebody thought this type of ‘storytelling’ was a super great way of relating biblical passages to modern day but I absolutely hate it with a passion! So this is kind of a more self-serving version of that.

    Funny enough, one of the reasons I used to enjoy Dever’s sermons is because he didn’t (at the time) do that.


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    dee wrote:

    “It’s deja vu all over again!” -Yogi Berra

    He may also be the same person who said,
    “I saw a fork in the road. So I took it.” (?)


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    The irony of CJ Mahaney saying that some have been hurt in churches with authoritarian pastors …

    I know of very few churches (or family of churches) that have spawned their own survivors websites. SGM, for a while, had 2 such sites.

    The pronouncements without the slightest bit of reflection is unbelievable.

    That and the lack of empathy for the suffering are marks of being a sociopath.

    However, I am not a psychologist and do not claim to be able to diagnose that.

    But the topic and the presentation are not very persuasive after all that has happened.


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    @ BL:
    This is just another reason I cannot stand “vague” when it comes to these ministry types.


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    BL wrote:

    Or does Mahaney define ‘slanderous’ as any utterance that is less than positive? Which, of course leaves his obedient pewishioners completely incapable of utilizing any personal discernment regarding truth.

    Haha this is so good. “Pewishioners”? I don’t think I’ve seen that used anywhere before lol. You’re right, any exercise of the Holy Spirit, such as discernment, must be filtered through the leadership, who reserve the exclusive right to judge the authenticity of your faith. However, you must never, ever judge the authenticity of their faith, or anything they attempt to pass off as a “gift” they have that you don’t. If you do that you’re the sinner, because they also reserve the right to control your conscience.

    I guess this same mindset must be prevalent within the SBC, or the marriage between Mohler and Mahaney would never have taken place, and Sovereign Grace Baptist Church of Louisville would not be their little love child.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Do you have a good definition for “soul”? Is there any way to define it leaving our minds out of the equation?

    Tell me what you mean by mind and I will see what I can do.


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    BL wrote:

    What ‘slanderous’ comments? Did Mahaney produce a list of these ‘slanderous’ comments that are being uttered ‘about the pastoral team’?

    I think this means anything bad you have to say about the pastor that doesn’t have 15 witnesses and a signed confession to back it up.


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    When did Mahaney’s church joined the Long Run Baptist Association and what did the 160 other churches know about their church polity? They should never have been allowed to join because they are not congregationalist.

    Maybe the association was afraid to cross Mohler because there are so many SBTS students and staff spread out across the churches. On the other hand, I know Mohler hasn’t been very popular with many churches in the local Baptist Association due to the way SBTS folks infiltrate and take over local churches.

    I would love to hear this story.


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    Mahaney Calls for Churches to Defend their Pastors

    “TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED! DO MY PROPHET NO HARM!”
    (HUMBLY, of course — chuckle chuckle)


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    R2 wrote:

    When did Mahaney’s church joined the Long Run Baptist Association and what did the 160 other churches know about their church polity? They should never have been allowed to join because they are not congregationalist.

    Hand over a six-figure check with hints of more in the future?

    “And THAT’s how you get invited back! (chuckle chuckle)”


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    Lea wrote:

    BL wrote:

    What ‘slanderous’ comments? Did Mahaney produce a list of these ‘slanderous’ comments that are being uttered ‘about the pastoral team’?

    I think this means anything bad you have to say about the pastor that doesn’t have 15 witnesses and a signed confession to back it up.

    And all those 15 witnesses have to be ELDERS.


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    BL wrote:

    Or does Mahaney define ‘slanderous’ as any utterance that is less than positive?

    Works for the Kims of North Korea…

    “With a ruler, you can lay the flattery on with a trowel.”
    — Benjamin Disraeli


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    Haha this is so good. “Pewishioners”? I don’t think I’ve seen that used anywhere before lol. You’re right, any exercise of the Holy Spirit, such as discernment, must be filtered through the leadership, who reserve the exclusive right to judge the authenticity of your faith.

    I had to go google ‘pewishioners’ just to see:

    Showing results for parishioners
    No results found for pewishioners

    I may have just coined a new term! hehheh

    Regarding discernment – you are correct, pewishioners are NOT to utilize discernment.

    The false authoritarian leaders actually undermine a believer’s desire to develop discernment, CONTRARY to:

    “13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

    Who because of PRACTICE!

    Note, it is NOT:

    Who because of PASTORS TEACHING.

    Why are churches filled with people excusing and defending their atrocious, abusive leaders? Why do they deem good evil and evil good?

    Because there are few mature believers.

    Why are there so few mature believers? Because there they are, still nuzzling milk from pulpit nipples after 20, 30, 40 years.

    Not only have they spent *decades* NOT practicing discernment and training themselves to distinguish between good and evil – they have actually spent decades training themselves to NEVER practice discernment because they are taught & trained by their leadership that doing so is a form of disobedience and sin.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    BL wrote:
    What ‘slanderous’ comments? Did Mahaney produce a list of these ‘slanderous’ comments that are being uttered ‘about the pastoral team’?

    I think this means anything bad you have to say about the pastor that doesn’t have 15 witnesses and a signed confession to back it up.

    And all those 15 witnesses have to be ELDERS.

    They absolutely do! Thanks for the correction 🙂


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And all those 15 witnesses have to be ELDERS.

    And at any point that those 15 ELDER witnesses together express a point of concern regarding a pastor’s abuses –

    Then said pastor will simply move on somewhere else.

    To some other PASTOR somewhere who will deem him RESTORED, and good to go!

    As we all know, some animals are more equal than others…


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    Lea wrote:

    …all the sermons seemed to be about the pastor. The pastors kids. The pastors wife. Stuff the pastor did that weekend. The pastors mens group golf outing.

    I vividly do not remember two multi-Sunday series of sermons at the church where I grew up. “A Church Is Not a Country Club” was indeed the title of the first series. The other series had some title about finding God’s glory in the natural world–and all of the sermon illustrations were about golfing in Hawaii.

    We were oh so glad that Pastor, following his sojourns, brought these miraculous visions back to us rubes in the Rust Belt. It gave us hope, by crackey, that something better glimmered in the distance. Something heavenly, if we only strained our eyes to see it through the belching smoke of the last remaining steel mills. Surely we would all get there together, and meet our dear departed and our precious Maker at the ninth tee.


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    Daisy wrote:

    dee wrote:

    “It’s deja vu all over again!” -Yogi Berra

    He may also be the same person who said,
    “I saw a fork in the road. So I took it.” (?)

    Sort of. He said “Whe you come a fork in the road, take it.” He was giving directions to his house to a friend – it just so happens that he lived on a loop drive, so if you took either fork, you ended up at his house.

    My favorite Yogi Berra-ism is “Nobody goes there any more – it’s too crowded.”


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    @ roebuck:

    WHEN you come to…


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    Anonymous wrote:

    That and the lack of empathy for the suffering are marks of being a sociopath.

    That is what I had when Mahaney speaks – a sociopath.


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    Protect the pastoral team, defend the pastors.

    Perhaps Mahaney would be good enough to trot out some Scriptural support for this teaching.

    Because, Scripture DOES have a lot to offer regarding protection and defending. Oddly enough, not so much in regards to protecting and defending pastors and pastoral teams.

    A few random, quick snippets from Old & New Testaments:

    * Defend the weak and fatherless.

    * Uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.

    * Seek justice, defend the oppressed.

    * Speak up and judge fairly, defend the rights of the poor and needy.

    * Defend the afflicted among the people and save the children of the needy.

    * Maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.

    * Give a right decision for the child who has no father, see to the cause of the widow.

    But then we have – Poor ol’ Hebrews 13!

    Do you know one way I know that the majority of today’s churches are not really feeding the sheep, but are instead overlording the sheep? (Beyond the evidence that few pewons are eating ‘meat’ or can tell the difference between good and evil).

    ALL those teachings on Hebrews 13:17 – ALL those teachings from the pulpits on trusting their leadership, obeying their leadership, submitting to their leadership, and now we can add – defending and protecting their leadership.

    The Hebrews 13:17 brickbat from the pulpit, used to corral all the eternally-infant followers into remaining in perpetual pietistic spiritual servitude to the pastor.

    But, where are all the teachings from the pulpit on the topic of BAD Shepherds?

    Where are the teachings instructing the shepherds to weep, wail and moan for abusing the sheep? Where are the teachings on shepherds who have been feeding themselves, taking care of themselves, eating the curds, taking the wool, and eating up the choice members? Where are the teachings from the pulpit on shepherds who have not strengthened the weak, or healed the sick, or bound up the broken?

    Or how about the one against the shepherds because they have not brought back those WHO WERE DRIVEN AWAY. Not wandered away, mind you – DRIVEN AWAY. “Nadach” – to impel, thrust, banish.

    False teachers, wicked priests, evil shepherds, self-interested apostles – both Old and New Testaments are *filled* with teachings, warnings, instructions regarding BAD leadership.

    Multiple verses, multiple chapters, multiple books, multiple testaments – all expressing God’s view of leadership gone-wrong. And we get nada from the pulpit.

    One verse, in one chapter, in one book, in one testament – resulting in a gazillion teachings from a gazillion teachers – from the pulpit.

    There is something very wrong with this picture.


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    Tree wrote:

    Another oft quoted phrase I endured during my years in this culture was “rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft”, which comes from some OT passage. It was an effective put down and shut down if you started to ask an uncomfortable question or made an astute observation of something you thought was not right.

    Some of the Calvary Chapel pastors are really keen on this verse (and other verses, always helicoptered out of context with virtually no connection to whom it was written to and the culture it came out of). They have a clobber verse for every contingency.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Tree wrote:
    Another oft quoted phrase I endured during my years in this culture was “rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft”, which comes from some OT passage. It was an effective put down and shut down if you started to ask an uncomfortable question or made an astute observation of something you thought was not right.

    Some of the Calvary Chapel pastors are really keen on this verse (and other verses, always helicoptered out of context with virtually no connection to whom it was written to and the culture it came out of). They have a clobber verse for every contingency.

    Say? Look what comes after that ‘witchcraft’ bit. Reminds me of quite a few pastors: “For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, he has rejected you as king.”


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    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    Really, I was taught it was the blood of Christ that kept me from going to hell?? So, it really is CJ and my pastor that is keeping me from going to hell?

    A newly ordained clergyman once talked with me about the “cure (care) of the soul.” He believed that God would one day hold him accountable for the state of every soul in his parish. It was clear that he viewed this as his private burden, solemn and eternal.

    I feel responsible for my own soul. However, his viewpoint moved me, and reminded me of Christ’s own sacrifice.

    That clergyman did not in any way imply that I had a responsibility to protect or uplift him. Quite the opposite.


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    R2 wrote:

    I would love to hear this story.

    Mohler OWNS the KBC. That was established several years ago with the strange appointment of Chitwood as Prez. (The man had split 2 churches over Calvinism)

    If the Associations want to exist at all (thanks to how Ezell now controls state conventions financially right down to health benefits for employees)they go along with the Mohler minions. Any dissenters retired or left. Those left go right along.

    There are some now saying they are required to sign non disclosure agreements so don’t expect many to be forthcoming!


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    @ elastigirl:
    He wouldn’t deign to befriend anyone in his congregations!


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    Friend wrote:

    I vividly do not remember two multi-Sunday series of sermons at the church where I grew up. “A Church Is Not a Country Club” was indeed the title of the first series. The other series had some title about finding God’s glory in the natural world–and all of the sermon illustrations were about golfing in Hawaii.
    We were oh so glad that Pastor, following his sojourns, brought these miraculous visions back to us rubes in the Rust Belt. It gave us hope, by crackey, that something better glimmered in the distance. Something heavenly, if we only strained our eyes to see it through the belching smoke of the last remaining steel mills. Surely we would all get there together, and meet our dear departed and our precious Maker at the ninth tee.

    In the words of the prophet Naked Pastor:
    http://i0.wp.com/nakedpastor.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/pastor-bob_4_3.jpg


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    elastigirl wrote:

    well that struck me. his personna is one of cheerful, fun, friendliness. he seems to be a ‘close friend’ (the engineered quality of that label is starting to bug me) to a number of his peers. but sounds like at ground level at ground zero, that’s not the case

    “For Satan himself can transform himself to appear as an Angel of Light.”

    Which is also the sign of a successful Sociopath.
    All he lets you see is the Mask.


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    I am so glad God lead me away from the ministry. So glad. There are so many pastors/church staff who treat the pew sitters as just someone to control. They couldn't (ed.) care less about their parishioners….It is a way to make a living. Many couldn't (ed.) really care less about winning people to Christ. Or they only witness to those in the church's socio-economic group.

    My time on church staff at seminary opened my eyes for what these charlatans were. Sure, there are some people that are good folks in the pulpit, but for so many, it becomes a job, just that, a job, they should get out and do something else, but they are drawing a good paycheck, have retirement with the annuity board, would have to leave the small town or even middle sized city for a larger urban area and the wife likes the town, the kids are in school, and then, they spent 4 years in college, 3-4 years in seminary, perhaps even longer if they have a D.Min/PhD.

    I worked for a man who dealt with ministers every day in his business. He literally wanted to go to hell, just to see the ministers with which he had business dealings, because he was certain, Hades would be full of preachers….and man, he had stories…


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    Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account.

    I think these guys take this verse backwards. It is those who DO care for the souls of others who should be considered leaders and worthy of honor. I.e., not those who have appropriated a title for themselves, but those who have PROVEN by their actions that they care for the welfare of others, along with the other requirements of elders.

    …to prepare your soul for that final day. Our concern is with your soul in relation to heaven and hell.

    His language seems to be insinuating that he has the power to determine other peoples’ eternal destiny. What audacity.


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    Wait, so the unrepentant liar is now making up commandments for the flock that just happen to dovetail with his current felt needs? Color me surprised.


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    okrapod wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    Do you have a good definition for “soul”? Is there any way to define it leaving our minds out of the equation?
    Tell me what you mean by mind and I will see what I can do.

    I don’t know if I have the intellect to even articulate my questions. We often hear pastors and others refer to our “souls”. Do you think they mean something that is not related to our thinking that goes on in our mind?

    A bit of background on this: you know all those Bible verses that refer to the heart? I was reading (secular) that around the same time as when NT scripture was written, the conventional wisdom was that thinking and decisions came from the heart. About 100 years after Paul , The physician Galen started to discover that the brain/head controlled human limbs. And from there it’s progressed to assigning thinking and decisions to the brain.

    This got me to thinking about how the word soul is used by much of Christendom. And thinking of our cognitive function after we die. It seems to be presented in scripture that we will know what is going on. I am wondering if the soul and the mind are the same thing? I guess I am just curious what others think a soul is.


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    @ K.D.:

    Ya know, if we want to proof text perhaps a good place to start is Matthew 7. :o) perhaps your old boss has it right.


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    The YRR crowd gets lots of attention, but John MacArthur should also be discussed because he is one of the featured speakers at T4G. He seems to be more old-school Calvinist than new-Calvinist. He is critical of some of the new-Calvinist teachings related to their charismatic tilt and has articles on his site expressing his concern about men like John Piper. This gives him some credibility. But…

    On the bright side, he recognizes the importance of selecting pastors who are properly gifted and who approach the task with humility:
    http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/A104/a-few-good-shepherds?Term=shepherd%20qualification:
    “As elders, we must lead our people humbly. The shepherd determines the direction of the flock. No church can be successful if its leaders fail in their task. And no flock can survive and prosper if its shepherds try to trade their staffs for thrones.”

    But on the not so bright side, he describes us sheep as stupid, filthy, and defenseless. Does he forget that pastors are also sheep? Here are just two article from his site that confirm this (there are more):
    https://www.gty.org/resources/articles/A408/more-than-just-a-preacher?Term=Sheep%20are%20almost%20entirely%20defenseless
    http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/80-297/how-to-shepherd-the-flock-of-god?term=shepherd%20conference?Term=defenseless%20sheep

    I don’t know if he intends this, but the effect is to promote a class difference between pastors and “pewishioners” (great term BL). He seems to be giving great top-cover for Mahaney, whether he intends to or not. And among the non-Pastors, Calvinism promotes a difference between the sheep (the elect) and the goats (the reprobate). It becomes a caste system with pastors at the top, sheep in the middle, and goats at the bottom (I don’t pretend to know whether female sheep rank above or below male goats, but that’s another topic). Ironically, the reformation opposed this division by class, but the new-Calvinists are running right back into it.

    But probably my biggest beef with MacArthur’s theology is his insistence on Penal Substitution as the only proper foundation for any view of the atonement. Here’s quite a startling quote: “the ultimate reality is that believers have been saved from God.” (see http://www.gty.org/blog/B131002/heavens-perspective-on-the-cross-satisfaction.) How does one get to the point where the good news of the Gospel is Jesus saving us from God?!? Where is that in the Bible? MacArthur’s only solid proof-text is his definition of the word propitiation, which is a Latin translation of a Greek word that does not have an unambiguous meaning (see http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2012/06/22/the-wrath-of-god-satisfied/). The more I study this, the more I am starting to believe that early church would have condemned penal substitution as heresy because of how it divides the Trinity.


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    Ezekiel 34 is very pertinent. It calls out both pastors and the “fat sheep.” I don’t ever remember hearing a sermon on this passage.


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    @ Lydia:

    My working definition of soul would encompass mind, body, and spirit.


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    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Color me surprised.

    I totally covered that in the second post:

    Mahaney sermonizes that he thinks preachers should be respected.
    That sermonizing looks pretty self-serving, and to quote Gomer Pyle: “Surprise, surprise, surprise.”
    Which you can hear Gomer say himself here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TnkJ8_BmSI


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    Daisy wrote:

    Mahaney sermonizes that he thinks preachers should be respected.

    I don’t respect a man just because he has a he “pastor” title. He still needs to prove he is respectable like any other person in life.


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    Getting it resolved? How? By performing a citizen’s arrest on the pedophile shielding and child sex abuse denying pastor? This should be “resolved” in the civil court following a citizen’s arrest. It would show how much the church members “love” that pastor because for the pastor’s edification he should serve some time. After all in Neo Calvinism suffering is a blessing. I am not being nice but what Mahaney did was not nice.


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    SGCL signed up as Baptists because the seminary required all students to attend Baptist churches and if they didn’t, students couldn’t go to their church.


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    R2 wrote:

    Maybe the association was afraid to cross Mohler

    There seems to be a lot of that going around in SBC. I continue to be amazed that SBC’s national leadership hasn’t called the good doctor into account for various things. Besides the Mahaney/SGM mess, Dr. Mohler has led the reformed rebellion against mainline SBC non-Calvinist belief and practice.


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    Yentl wrote:

    SGCL signed up as Baptists because the seminary required all students to attend Baptist churches and if they didn’t, students couldn’t go to their church.

    What a farce . . .


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    Ken F wrote:

    Ezekiel 34 is very pertinent. It calls out both pastors and the “fat sheep.” I don’t ever remember hearing a sermon on this passage.

    I bet Leonard Ravenhill preached some sermons in that regard – he spent a long ministry preaching against fat pulpits and fat pews. David Ravenhill (Leonard’s son) wrote in an article Modern Day Money Changers “I’m convinced that the carnal, cunning, conniving, crooked crooks that Jesus drove out of the Temple are still among us today.”

    There’s so much junk in the 21st century church that is not the Church at all.


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    CJ – I can’t believe you could preach about “those who will give an account” without utter terror.

    OUR souls are your main concern? Did you know the vast majority of the hundreds and hundreds of children that grew up in CLC will NEVER set foot in a church again because of your divisiveness? For your fleeing from accountability and discipline? Do millstones come to mind?

    Did you know their parents, who labored tirelessly week after week, setting up Children’s Ministry, sound, chairs, music, communion, song sheets, practicing instruments, writing plays, singing, making videos, landscaping, traffic control, snow shoveling, leading care groups, cleaning their houses for care groups, sitting through hours and hours of classes, making snacks for care groups, studying your books and messages to repeat them by rote, will never set foot in a church again? The ones who estranged themselves from relatives and friends while they built their lives around your kingdom so YOU could be the most important hour of their week are wondering if there is a God? The ones who gave tens upon tens of thousands of dollars so your family could live comfortably to be a joy to you while their own families sat hungry and trusted God for provision will never do this again? YOU would be nothing without us.

    How dare you talk about preserving the trust and protecting unity of the church. How dare you.

    CJ, we are watching you as you prepare for that final day.

    Our concern is with your soul in relation to heaven and hell.


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    @ Bridget:

    It's always about money with this crowd. Students at Southern Baptist seminaries get a substantial discount when they are members of Southern Baptist churches.

    It'$ still all about the Money!


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    @ Yentl:

    wow — that was raw and powerful.

    these children and parents, this large group — if they were all to gather together with a facilitator (shooting for the moon here, but Oprah? Elizabeth Vargas, David Muir from 20/20?), a few spokespeople speak for the group, it would be filmed and aired as part of a larger story….

    I think the visual of all these people gathered together, the human faces, the very great number of them, to tell their true story, all filmed and broadcast — would be a powerful statement of reality to counter the whitewash being presented.


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    “a joyful disposition to trust and protect the pastoral team.”

    Reminds me of how wives are supposed to be “joyfully available” sexually to their husbands at all times. It’s the “joyfully” that makes both of these situations abusive. It’s not enough that you do what these men tell you to; they expect you to obey AND to affirm them emotionally. It’s simultaneously demanding and insecure. I know three year olds who behave better.


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    @ Bridget:

    honestly, as soon as I hear the title ‘pastor’, especially when self-designated, my opinion of the person goes down. it simply does.

    that, and I begin to feel a bit of panic, my skin starts to crawl, I have to get out….


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    Ken F wrote:

    but John MacArthur should also be discussed

    My ex-pastor, a graduate of JMac’s The Master’s Seminary, is extremely abusive (verbally, spiritually, emotionally), authoritarian, controlling, dishonest. I have seen the same stories across the nation from these abusive graduates and the damage they’ve done to their members (mishandling sex abuse cases, Nouthetic Counseling by inept pastors/elders instead of bona fide care by licensed professionals who know what they’re doing, Patriarchy, and authoritarianism). My ex-pastor was so arrogant he even excommunicated a personal friend of JMac’s, a godly doctor in his 70s, faithful husband and father, on some trumped up, bizarre charge.

    I’ve come to see JMac’s seminary as a training ground for future franchisees, to spin off churches for their own power and financial gain.

    I’ve never seen more people lacking in love.


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    Ken F wrote:

    The YRR crowd gets lots of attention, but John MacArthur should also be discussed

    You are very astute to recognize that MacArthur is the root of much of this. His books turned people subtly to Calvinism and to law as a rule of life. I remember reading, back in the 80’s I think, Miles Stanford debating him on these points.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    honestly, as soon as I hear the title ‘pastor’, especially when self-designated, my opinion of the person goes down. it simply does.

    that, and I begin to feel a bit of panic, my skin starts to crawl, I have to get out….

    Not too many years ago I would not have known what to think of your statement. Since then I have run into far too many who are proud of their title, who have elevated themselves above me and seem to respect only men of their own caste.

    I am now of the opinion that there is only one flock and only one Shepherd. If I were employed by an institution that calls itself a local church I would eschew the title and find a different descriptor than “pastor”, one less sullied by the likes of Mahaney and his enablers at T4G.


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    Yentl wrote:

    … How dare you talk about preserving the trust and protecting unity of the church.

    Well said


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    Yentl wrote:

    CJ – I can’t believe you could preach about “those who will give an account” without utter terror.

    OUR souls are your main concern? Did you know the vast majority of the hundreds and hundreds of children that grew up in CLC will NEVER set foot in a church again because of your divisiveness? For your fleeing from accountability and discipline? Do millstones come to mind?

    Did you know their parents, who labored tirelessly week after week, setting up Children’s Ministry, sound, chairs, music, communion, song sheets, practicing instruments, writing plays, singing, making videos, landscaping, traffic control, snow shoveling, leading care groups, cleaning their houses for care groups, sitting through hours and hours of classes, making snacks for care groups, studying your books and messages to repeat them by rote, will never set foot in a church again? The ones who estranged themselves from relatives and friends while they built their lives around your kingdom so YOU could be the most important hour of their week are wondering if there is a God? The ones who gave tens upon tens of thousands of dollars so your family could live comfortably to be a joy to you while their own families sat hungry and trusted God for provision will never do this again? YOU would be nothing without us.

    How dare you talk about preserving the trust and protecting unity of the church. How dare you.

    CJ, we are watching you as you prepare for that final day.

    Our concern is with your soul in relation to heaven and hell.

    These are the most powerful words I’ve read in regards to Mahaney.


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    @ Yentl:

    This is one post that Mahaney really ought to read.


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    Max wrote:

    . I continue to be amazed that SBC’s national leadership hasn’t called the good doctor into account for various thin

    Ronnie Floyd spoke at T$G. They end up joining the gravy train. Patterson is speaking at some upcoming Reformed gig. Mohler is not stupid. He knows exactly what he is doing and the money changers get on the bandwagon.


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    @ Bridget:
    That is what I was thinking.


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    Yentl wrote:

    CJ – I can’t believe you could preach about “those who will give an account” without utter terror.

    It makes one wonder what is really going on between his ears. What does he really believe about God, justice, and eternity. Because though he levels eternal judgment against others as a weapon, he lives as though it is nothing he should be concerned about for himself.

    Yentl, you have done a good job painting a word picture of the experiences of those who have dealt with this fraud, CJ. And it is heart wrenching.


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    @ Velour:
    Yep, Velour, I’ve seen the same thing. A couple of John MacArthur followers (lay leaders) ruined my church — and continue to do so. They are rude, arrogant, and high handed. They chase off anyone who doesn’t agree with them: Even godly elders and deacons, excellent speakers from the local seminary, and people with better theology degrees than they have (they had no degrees).

    The senior pastor was cowed by their aggressiveness and was merely a puppet pastor.

    I’m so glad to have found another church. Once men with an agenda take over, it’s time to take your family, friends, and tithe and quietly slip away. There are many good churches with humble, well-educated pastors who really care about people.


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    @ Lydia:
    Lydia, interesting stuff.

    There is new evidence which points to thinking not just happening in the brain.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Ronnie Floyd spoke at T$G. They end up joining the gravy train. Patterson is speaking at some upcoming Reformed gig. Mohler is not stupid. He knows exactly what he is doing and the money changers get on the bandwagon.

    Yes, Ronnie Floyd spoke at the CBMW pre-conference. It was announced less than a month before the event.

    http://cbmw.org/topics/news-and-announcements/news-ronnie-floyd-to-speak-at-cbmw-national-conference/

    And Paige Patterson is speaking at the upcoming 9Marx conference in Fort Worth.

    http://9marks.org/firstfiveyears/2016/#speakers


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    @ Yentl:
    Well said, Yentl.


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    @ elastigirl:
    Great idea!


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    @ elastigirl:
    I was just thinking about this some more. If someone like Oprah or another powerful person did this, I think the CJ sycophants would see this as oppression or persecution. It would make them believe their poor, victimized ruler even more. I know sociopaths and they know how to twist truth like nobody’s business.


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    Stunned wrote:

    If someone like Oprah or another powerful person did this,

    I wonder if Janet Mefferd could do this? Oh wait. The powers that be would make her apologize for attacking such a godly (gag) man.
    Yes, it would probably have to be an Oprah type person.
    But, then CJ defenders wouldn’t have to take it seriously because they would sweep it under the category of “Rising persecution against the church”.


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    Stunned wrote:

    I know sociopaths and they know how to twist truth like nobody’s business.

    That’s the problem in a nutshell. They will never stop. As long as they have people who will listen, they will spin an manipulate on. Going up against them only emboldens them. They best thing to do with people like this is leave, encourage others to leave, and never interact with them on any level again. Ironically, social media makes that hard.

    Look at Doug Wilson. Irrelevance would make him disappear, but because he can write provocative enough statements to always ensure people will argue with him , he’ll be around forever.


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    Kemi wrote:

    Look at Doug Wilson. Irrelevance would make him disappear, but because he can write provocative enough statements to always ensure people will argue with him , he’ll be around forever.

    I guess this is why desperate people on the edge just hire hit men.
    And regular people, people who want to live quiet and peaceful lives have to suffer.


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    “never interact with them on any level again”

    YES! They often crave attention. Of any kind. I had to learn to NOT interact with the sociopath in my life, despite all of their attempts at provocation. Walk away. Slowly if you must. (Literally, fast moves can raise their adrenaline and they will then RUN after you.) But move away and if you must, move across an ocean to get safe. Please.


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    Stunned wrote:

    I know sociopaths and they know how to twist truth like nobody’s business.

    I think this is really the big underlying problem. People have no clue what they are really dealing with. This is a huge topic and the folks who are into diagnoses get a bit upset when we throw that term around. However, besides the fact that many of these people exhibit sociopathic tendencies, the very systems they create, enable that behavior in leadership and it trickles down.

    No one will convince me that SGM did not create the perfect system for encouraging sociopathic behavior. Such behavior was considered Godly. Deception, control of people, convincing people they were wrong when they were not, etc.


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    Kemi wrote:

    That’s the problem in a nutshell. They will never stop. As long as they have people who will listen, they will spin an manipulate on. Going up against them only emboldens them. They best thing to do with people like this is leave, encourage others to leave, and never interact with them on any level again. Ironically, social media makes that hard.

    They are hard to spot. By the time people figure out something is wrong they are already sucked in. And narcissistic sociopaths never target everyone. They divide and conquer so you look like a mean angry bitter person who is against them. Then others will rally around them and protect them. They always become the victim. Always.

    There are some characteristics to look for but most people freak out if you even discuss them because innocent people have some of the same characteristics. They really do masquerade as angels of light.

    They are exhausting and not worth the effort.


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    Lydia wrote:

    And narcissistic sociopaths never target everyone. They divide and conquer so you look like a mean angry bitter person who is against them. Then others will rally around them and protect them. They always become the victim. Always.

    They are exhausting and not worth the effort.

    Totally agree! Though I do believe that given time they will alienate everyone, because the people that were on his good side for one issue inevitably get on his bad side for another later on. An abuser always needs an abusee; no one is ever safe with people like this.


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    Kemi wrote:

    Though I do believe that given time they will alienate everyone, because the people that were on his good side for one issue inevitably get on his bad side for another later on. An abuser always needs an abusee; no one is ever safe with people like this.

    Keep in mind I am focusing more on such types in a leadership capacity. They will move on or surround themselves with new people. Driscoll is a perfect example of this. Look how long he lasted at Mars Hill but not before he used a lot of people, threw some under the bus, etc. And he left wealthy. Now, he is starting over with a new crop of people.

    There are usually some inexperienced young people you want in on what they see as a success bandwagon.

    Look at how long the Mahaney lasted at SGM. The biggest part of his protection, in the end, was partnering with outside names to support him. Had he not had all that protection from people like Mohler, Dever, Piper, Trueman, Ortburg, etc, one has to wonder what would have happened.

    The key is having power, control and insulation. Those are protections for sociopathic narcissists.

    Driscoll took a bunch of money instead of paying people back and is trying to build another Empire. My guess is Mahaney took a bunch of money, too.

    I guess what I’m trying to say is don’t be too convinced that they always end up alienating everyone. They always find new people to adore them . These people can wreak havoc in lives for thirty and forty years.


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    Lydia wrote:

    They always find new people to adore them .

    Fresh meat. New prey.
    Vampires are always looking for warm blood and innocence.


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    @ Deb:
    When Ronnie Floyd joins the stage at a T4G/CBMW and Paige Patterson becomes a 9Marxist, clear signs are being sent to millions of mainline non-Calvinist Southern Baptists … you have no one in national leadership for you.


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    Lydia wrote:

    They are hard to spot. By the time people figure out something is wrong they are already sucked in. And narcissistic sociopaths never target everyone. They divide and conquer so you look like a mean angry bitter person who is against them. Then others will rally around them and protect them. They always become the victim. Always.

    Why couldn’t I have been born a Narcissistic Sociopath?
    A WINNER instead of a Loser?


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    Kemi wrote:

    Though I do believe that given time they will alienate everyone, because the people that were on his good side for one issue inevitably get on his bad side for another later on. An abuser always needs an abusee; no one is ever safe with people like this.

    Lydia wrote:

    I guess what I’m trying to say is don’t be too convinced that they always end up alienating everyone. They always find new people to adore them . These people can wreak havoc in lives for thirty and forty years.

    “BUT I’M HIS COURT FAVORITE!
    HE EVEN LET ME BRING THE BOWSTRING FOR LAST WEEK’S FAVORITE!”


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    Stunned wrote:

    I know sociopaths and they know how to twist truth like nobody’s business.

    And they Always Win.
    ALWAYS.


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    Mara wrote:

    It makes one wonder what is really going on between his ears. What does he really believe about God, justice, and eternity. Because though he levels eternal judgment against others as a weapon, he lives as though it is nothing he should be concerned about for himself.

    Because he KNOWS he’s God’s Court Favorite, and God’s Speshul Pet gets away with anything.

    Predestined Elect, waving his personal Get-Out-of-Hell-Free card God signed especially for His Speshul Pet before the foundation of the world.


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    Yentl wrote:

    How dare you talk about preserving the trust and protecting unity of the church. How dare you.

    And he wipes his mouth and proclaims “I Have Not Sinned (chuckle chuckle).”


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    @ Max:
    Which is why leadership is over rated in Christendom. It is simply not necessary but many have been convinced it is and their unending goal is to find righteous ones who don’t turn bad in the position. It’s a waste of time and effort.


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    Bill M wrote:

    Since then I have run into far too many who are proud of their title, who have elevated themselves above me and seem to respect only men of their own caste.

    Several things drove me away from church for a while, in particular the Baptist non-denom stuff (which all seemed kind of the same). One of the things that bothered me was going into a church and seeing a staff listing on the program (or website).

    Man: Senior Pastor. Man: Music Pastor. Man: Childrens Pastor. Man: Something else Pastor, etc..etc..
    Woman: Director of something. Woman: Secretary. Woman: Graphic Artist. Etc.

    It was one thing when the ‘pastor’, meaning one or maybe two guys on staff, could only be a man. It was another when every man on staff was a ‘pastor’ of something. That started to bug me. And thinking about it now, I think it’s more than just the male/female thing. I think every man is a pastor precisely because they are putting themselves in that ‘caste’ that you alluded to. A man on staff apparently cannot just be the ‘Director’ of something. Or Accountant. Or what have you. He must be a PASTOR! Because caste.


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    @ Yentl:

    Bless you, Yentl!


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    Deb wrote:

    Yes, Ronnie Floyd spoke at the CBMW pre-conference. It was announced less than a month before the event.
    http://cbmw.org/topics/news-and-announcements/news-ronnie-floyd-to-speak-at-cbmw-national-conference/

    Is that because that Patrick guy in Mo had to get shuffled off after he ‘didn’t commit adultery’ with two ladies?


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    Yentl wrote:

    SGCL signed up as Baptists because the seminary required all students to attend Baptist churches and if they didn’t, students couldn’t go to their church.

    Not exactly. You have to attend a Southern Baptist church to get the tuition discount. Mohler had been offering the discount to SGCL members but was forced to retract the offer in one of the few successful acts of resistance to him from the SBC.

    So he got around it by sneaking SGCL into the local Baptist association which made them Southern Baptists.


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    Lydia wrote:

    leadership is over rated in Christendom

    Yep, it’s getting difficult sorting out the anointed from the annoying! I’m also beginning to think that denominations are over-rated as well. A driver behind the success of the Southern Baptist Convention for the 60+ years I have been associated with it was the “Cooperative Program.” This was once a great idea, with 45,000+ churches of theological like-mind (non-Calvinist) uniting to field a worldwide evangelistic effort. Now, the only unity we see is that driving the New Calvinist takeover of a once-great denomination. With national leadership surrendering to this rebellion, local churches can’t do much to hold back the shifting default to Calvinism which will occur within a single generation. I sometimes wonder if some of these “leaders” are more concerned about protecting their retirement annuities than preserving traditional SBC belief and practice.


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    R2 wrote:

    So he got around it by sneaking SGCL into the local Baptist association which made them Southern Baptists.

    What I’m confused about is if CJs church is still also part of SGC? How is it both SBC and SGC?


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    One- I think that CJM teaching this is extremely problematic and hypocritical. It colors one’s perspective due to the obvious twisting of the concept to the end of self-preservation.

    Two- Trusting/supporting leadership in a church is not synonymous with looking the other way when it comes to sin. Especially abuse. To use that passage as a “get out of jail free” card in light of gross abuse and negligence is horrific. I personally had to deal with this at the first church I served in….long story short—leadership admitted that the Sr Pastor was sinning, but verses like this were used because we had “protect the church” and so it wasn’t dealt with appropriately and the church ended up imploding.

    Three- I think there DOES need to be a high bar to supporting and defending church leadership. While I have personally dealt with the abuse side of leadership, I MORE often deal with unhealthy and destructive members who tear down leadership.

    Most recently– We have a new modern worship center that was designed for multiple use(we use it for community events like school graduations, concerts, etc) and there isn’t a permanent cross in the front. But we do have crosses in multiple areas, and virtually every worship service we have the cross is visually prominent in some way. A group of grumpy gusses are infuriated that we don’t have a large central and permanent cross. We get weekly anonymous notes about how wrong it is…and it culminated in one particular individual going around town and telling people that we took away all the crosses(which we didn’t) because we were secretely becoming a muslim church! There was a pocket of people who were privately being influenced by this and going around and trying to stir up trouble. In leadership we weren’t aware of this whispering campaign, and there had been some new visitors who had been taken aside by some of these people to warn them against our sin…..why were they still there you might ask at this point…you’re theories are as good as mine…

    So something as simple as not having a permanent cross at the center of the worship center created this pocket of destructive grumbling. How did we get to deal with it and how was it resolved? A number of wonderful God honoring individuals in the membership became aware of it and confronted the grumblers and exposed the lies. They took seriously the importance of standing with the church leadership and even protecting them from lies and slander. They didn’t do so blindly, but with openness and honesty. So instead of it becoming a bigger and bigger divisive issue, “regular” church members defended leadership and the problems were resolved without it blowing up.

    All that to say, CJM is not in any position to teach these things, but the principle is important.


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    Deb wrote:

    @ Bridget:
    It’s always about money with this crowd. Students at Southern Baptist seminaries get a substantial discount when they are members of Southern Baptist churches.
    It’$ still all about the Money!

    So did Mahaney mainly join because he had a son and SIL attending seminary or was it to get SCC students to come join his church so they could get a discount at seminary?


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    All that to say, CJM is not in any position to teach these things, but the principle is important.

    I am sort of amazed, though, at this particular choice of compare and contrast since your example is about the way the church is decorated (come to think of it, my church does have a very large cross in the front!) while the CJ thing is about much more serious things. Like child abuse, spiritual abuse, etc.

    Yes, grumbling is annoying. That’s people. They will differ on things like that. Maybe they think your church doesn’t look enough like a church. Maybe you could have come up with a compromise that involves putting a cross in the front of the church? Maybe you could have had a congregational meeting about decoration. I think it’s very interesting that you frame this whole thing about the cross decorations as slander and lies, rather than a difference of opinion about how much a church should look like a church.


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    This is such a naked, self-interested sermon, I am surprised he wasn’t struck down during the delivery. But God is gracious to us all – me included.

    But Christians should see through this sort of thing you would think.


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    Max wrote:

    Now, the only unity we see is that driving the New Calvinist takeover of a once-great denomination.

    The saddest thing I see as a former Baptist is this emphasis on ‘elder led’ rather than denomination.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    So something as simple as not having a permanent cross at the center of the worship center created this pocket of destructive grumbling. How did we get to deal with it and how was it resolved? A number of wonderful God honoring individuals in the membership became aware of it and confronted the grumblers and exposed the lies. They took seriously the importance of standing with the church leadership and even protecting them from lies and slander. They didn’t do so blindly, but with openness and honesty. So instead of it becoming a bigger and bigger divisive issue, “regular” church members defended leadership and the problems were resolved without it blowing up.

    Was the decision to not have a cross in the main area a secret decision of leadership? I’m assuming that this is something that would have been discussed with the church body along with explanations and that most of the church was in agreement. The background is important in this scenario. I can see people being suspicious if this was a leadership decision with no explanation.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    All that to say, CJM is not in any position to teach these things, but the principle is important.

    I’ve only seen this principle used to silence the body while the head(s) does what it wants. As Mahaney is doing. I’ve heard it said very nicely with elequant words and a soft voice, all while deception is reigning.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Three- I think there DOES need to be a high bar to supporting and defending church leadership.

    No higher bar than the one protecting any other member of the body against wrong doing!!!!


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    Lea wrote:

    The saddest thing I see as a former Baptist is this emphasis on ‘elder led’

    Yes, this is the root cause of all other New Calvinist ails when you unleash an army of young, restless and reformed pastors into pulpits who are preacher boys, rather than men of God. Boys can’t handle being an “elder” … few in their 20s-30s lack the spiritual wisdom to steer a church clear of the enemy’s deception.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    So something as simple as not having a permanent cross at the center of the worship center created this pocket of destructive grumbling.

    The SBC-YRR church plants in my area don’t have a Cross displayed anywhere!


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    Max wrote:

    Boys can’t handle being an “elder” …

    Yes.

    Additionally, I was reading something the other day about the word for ‘elder’ men that is used is basically the same as the one translated as ‘older women’ later, where those women are called to instruct the younger women in a number of things. And that ‘elder’ women/widows was an official function in the church until some men decided to shut that down.

    So now I’m thinking this need for older women and men to instruct the younger is very, very important. Not that they should be making all the decisions (I am fond of a congregational vote and full information available to members!), but they should be OLDER, MATURE Christians who have been around the block so to say and are capable of instruction. That is not what we see happening…


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    @ Lea:

    I don’t want to compare in peoples minds that church decorations and abuse are similar. Instead to see that the principle of defending leadership has value. When we don’t take it seriously it leads to problems. And, in the case of visitors, people who might not know anything about Christ or church, for them to show up and be warned about how terrible the leaders are, they could respond by deciding to not darken the doors of a church again because there first experience is a bunch of angry argumentative people. So while decorations are ultimately of little importance, how they are responding to it can have significant impact.

    When little things are allowed to grow into big things how it impacts the watching community has a powerful affect on how they view Christianity. If all they know is that those “church people” are always arguing over stupid things, why would they ever want to be a part of that?

    One of our denominational statements is “In Essentials, Unity, in non-essentials, Liberty, in all things, Charity”. There are very few hills we would be willing to die on, and in everything else, we have to be wise to not always be bogged down by endless debates about what color the new carpets should be. When we move into non-essentials(to cross or not to cross) there are going to be as many opinions as there are people. Once a decision has been made it serves no one to continue to argue and grumble about it.

    -as a quick aside; we did address it…wrote about it, spoke about it from the pulpit—and it did nothing to stop the whisper campaign–

    Every believer in any church is able to know Biblical truth, and have a responsibility to stand for God’s truth. When leadership is in sin they have a responsibility to stand with God, not with men. But, so many issues that churches and church leadership deal with are not the abominable sinfulness as shown in CJM’s ministry, but people elevating non-essentials and personal preferences to a position of idolatry.

    I have always told people that if they don’t prefer how we do things, or, have some doctrinal disagreements on some secondary issues, that is totally ok. For example, we are a reformed church(EPC) and some people aren’t comfortable with that, and I have happily encouraged them to visit our local E-Free church. I love our brothers and sisters there and we have often shared in ministry to serve our community for the Gospel.

    If you have chosen and committed to a local body, and outside of sin, why would you go around trashing and disrespecting leadership? It creates a stumbling block to young believers and can put a wall between the Bride and those outside of faith that is unnecesary.

    And what is frustrating is that for many regular people their most common perception of a church is a bunch of infighting over silly things coupled with ignoring significant sins(Driscoll, CJM, etc) The American church really has, in general got this all screwy. We fight over non-essentials and make excuses for sin in the churh. What a powerful testimony could we have if we truly had unity and didn’t fight over paint colors and got ferocious about real sin and abuse.


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    Bridget wrote:

    The background is important in this scenario. I can see people being suspicious if this was a leadership decision with no explanation.

    We explained it multiple times in multiple venues. Even before we broke ground on the facility we had blue prints and visual design mock ups for people to see and comment on.


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    Bridget wrote:

    I’ve only seen this principle used to silence the body while the head(s) does what it wants.

    I would run for the hills of any church that ignores leadership sin and twists this passage to defend it. The principle is applied to non-essentials. To be able to say, “I don’t prefer, or agree, with that position, but it isn’t a reason to start a fight. I want to support our church and our leadership even when it isn’t my personal preference”. I have rarely seen fights over critical sin issues, but I have seen tons of fights over the most absurd things


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    I don’t want to compare in peoples minds that church decorations and abuse are similar. Instead to see that the principle of defending leadership has value.

    Defend leadership when they need defending, but likewise defend MEMBERS when they need defending. Everyone should be treated as valuable and important. Compromise when it keeps the peace and on, as you say, nonessentials.

    But when you focus too much on the principal of defending leadership, I think you shift something in the mentality that leads to defending CJ and other awful preachers because ‘they are our leaders’. We should be able to look at leaders and members as individuals, who may be great people or may be incredibly flawed. The bible tells us to judge our leaders MORE harshly, not less. They are supposed to be above reproach, not members. Things have gotten wonky somewhere and this principle has flipped. That’s what I don’t like.

    I think what you’re talking about when you say defend leadership in reference to the decorations is not really the same. You’re talking about defending and sticking to decisions that have been made (however your church makes them – and if you have an inordinate amount of conflict over little things you may want to look at how those decisions are being made or maybe talk to people about their objections.)


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    Lea wrote:

    So now I’m thinking this need for older women and men to instruct the younger is very, very important. Not that they should be making all the decisions (I am fond of a congregational vote and full information available to members!), but they should be OLDER, MATURE Christians who have been around the block so to say and are capable of instruction. That is not what we see happening…

    What we’re seeing is 20-year-old Pastorjugende whose only qualification for “Elder” is total blind loyalty to the regime.

    Same qualifications as Komsomol, the Allgemine-SS, and Chairman Mao’s Red Guard.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Three- I think there DOES need to be a high bar to supporting and defending church leadership.

    No higher bar than the one protecting any other member of the body against wrong doing!!!!Adam Borsay wrote:

    Bridget wrote:
    The background is important in this scenario. I can see people being suspicious if this was a leadership decision with no explanation.
    We explained it multiple times in multiple venues. Even before we broke ground on the facility we had blue prints and visual design mock ups for people to see and comment on.

    I figured the leadership probably did explain the decision. Then, yes, people should speak up and silence the whispering, even tell the disgruntled to go speak to the leadership face to face or stop talking about it.


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    @ Yentl:
    Thank you for this dose of reality. The really sad part is that the people who most need to hear your words are the ones who will be quickest to defend Mahaney. It is a cult. You could say the same thing about 9Marks or MacArthur or any of the Gospel Glitterati franchises. There are many people who have post-traumatic church disorder (I would like to credit the commenter who included that apt term some time in the recent past, but I cannot remember who that is!)

    While I am playing amateur psychologist, I think that many of these people are seriously disordered themselves. They appear to me to be stunted emotionally as well as spiritually. Certainly Mahaney’s comments and behaviors are disordered. Or worse. Those who believe they have the maturity to judge secular psychologists as being godless lack the bare minimum discernment to see that something is terribly wrong in YRRville. They externalize all of their problems and lack all capacity to look at their own problems that they have created. And we should trust their nouthetic judgment? I think not.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    total blind loyalty to the regime

    same is required by the Followers of Trump – I shall never forget when Trump tried to get them to give him a raised hand salute . . . thank God it didn’t take, at least ‘not yet’ . . . dark times ahead, yes

  171. Pingback: C.J. Mahaney Attempts To Shut the Mouths of His Critics - Thou Art The Man


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    Lea wrote:

    I’m thinking this need for older women and men to instruct the younger is very, very important … they should be OLDER, MATURE Christians who have been around the block so to say and are capable of instruction

    Indeed! That is the Biblical pattern for doing church as we ought. The YRR churches of 20s-40s are missing the wisdom of a generation that has been around the corner, both in and out of church. I was young and now I’m old – I’ve learned a lot being pulled through the knotholes of life! Now, that’s not to say that every old gray-haired person in church has wisdom … but age helps. We need multi-generations working together. We need the energy of youth coupled with the wisdom of age … young folks to speed things up, old guys to slow it down. In the SBC-YRR takeovers of traditional churches in my area, they use the old folks (particularly their money) rather than sit under them for instruction … until the saints get wise to their scheme and break ranks (otherwise known as a church split, which the YRR are masters of).


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    Daisy wrote:

    dee wrote:

    “It’s deja vu all over again!” -Yogi Berra

    He may also be the same person who said,
    “I saw a fork in the road. So I took it.” (?)

    Haven’t read all the responses but I heard that Yogi said, “When you come to a fork In the road, take it.”


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    Lea wrote:

    A man on staff apparently cannot just be the ‘Director’ of something. Or Accountant. Or what have you. He must be a PASTOR!

    Hehe, Pastor of Accounting, I haven’t seen that yet but I have seen:
    Youth Pastor
    Executive Pastor
    College Pastor
    Outreach Pastor
    Head Pastor
    Discipleship Pastor
    Lead Pastor
    Marriage & Family Pastor
    Senior Pastor
    Pastor to seniors
    Worship Pastor
    Pastor Emeritus

    I’m sure there’s more. Thankfully I seen some start calling them ministers or directors and dropping the silly over use of “pastor”.


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    Max wrote:

    Indeed! That is the Biblical pattern for doing church as we ought. The YRR churches of 20s-40s are missing the wisdom of a generation that has been around the corner, both in and out of church.

    Like all the dot-com whiz kids of the late Nineties and their Completely New Internet Business Paradigms…


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Those who believe they have the maturity to judge secular psychologists as being godless lack the bare minimum discernment to see that something is terribly wrong in YRRville. They externalize all of their problems and lack all capacity to look at their own problems that they have created. And we should trust their nouthetic judgment?

    As much as we should trust Scientology’s Dianetic judgment.


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    @ Bill M:
    Tax free benefits in ordination.


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    @ Christiane:
    And followers of Hillary


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    Anonymous wrote:

    This is such a naked, self-interested sermon, I am surprised he wasn’t struck down during the delivery. But God is gracious to us all – me included.

    God might be shaking his head that people sit through it.


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    Lydia wrote:

    They are hard to spot. By the time people figure out something is wrong they are already sucked in. And narcissistic sociopaths never target everyone. They divide and conquer so you look like a mean angry bitter person who is against them. Then others will rally around them and protect them. They always become the victim. Always.

    Great summary! I should have read the entire thread before making my previous comment.


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    @ Adam Borsay:
    All those people who pay your salary are mean and demanding.


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    Christiane wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    total blind loyalty to the regime

    same is required by the Followers of Trump – I shall never forget when Trump tried to get them to give him a raised hand salute . . . thank God it didn’t take, at least ‘not yet’ . . . dark times ahead, yes

    Problem is, Christiane, that statements like yours these days are usually linked to gushing over Hillary Who Can Do No Wrong. “HERE AHURA-MAZDA, THERE AHRIMAN!” plus Conspiracy Conspiracy Conspiracy are now the default in American politics.
    “WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON?????”

    (This is the first American Presidential campaign I can remember where EVERY Big Name in the primaries — except for Bernie Sanders — sounds like He/She Who Would Be Dictator. Trump, Cruz, Hillary, all of them. Each one seizing Power in the name of stopping the Vast Conspiracy of all the Others. Looks like it’s not only the Communists who turned Politics into a Fundamentalist religion…)


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    Bridget wrote:

    R2 wrote:

    So he got around it by sneaking SGCL into the local Baptist association which made them Southern Baptists.

    What I’m confused about is if CJs church is still also part of SGC? How is it both SBC and SGC?

    Good question! I think they are pulling a Sojourn or a Baptist 21. I saw where they are planning to be a church planting Network within the SBC. NAMB money from the Mohler loyalist, Kevin Ezell.


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    Lydia wrote:

    By the time people figure out something is wrong they are already sucked in. And narcissistic sociopaths never target everyone. They divide and conquer so you look like a mean angry bitter person who is against them. Then others will rally around them and protect them.

    While they’re targeting some, they’re grooming others.

    “But he was such a NICE boy! So polite!”
    — said of so many serial killers after their capture

    From experience:
    Nobody is as Concerned as a sociopath, as Compassionate as a sociopath, as NICE as a sociopath, as Sincere as a sociopath, as Innocent as a sociopath, as Unjustly Wronged as a sociopath, as Persecuted as a sociopath — until the instant you Outlive Your Usefulness.


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Christiane:
    And followers of Hillary

    But Comrade Hillary Can Do No Wrong (TM).
    Party First, Comrades.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    From experience:
    Nobody is as Concerned as a sociopath, as Compassionate as a sociopath, as NICE as a sociopath, as Sincere as a sociopath, as Innocent as a sociopath, as Unjustly Wronged as a sociopath, as Persecuted as a sociopath — until the instant you Outlive Your Usefulness.

    You know, I’ve always said I don’t trust charm. But d*rn if I didn’t get suckered in by it last year. Oh well. Live and learn.


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    Lydia wrote:

    All those people who pay your salary are mean and demanding.

    Are you implying that I am appearing overly sensitive to my benefactors when they are telling people that we are secretely becoming a mosque?? Someones giving to the church doesn’t not mean that now the church has to do whatever that individual wants them to do. I am not saying they have no value and they have no voice, but that money given does not equate to the right to demand people to behave in the way you prefer.

    We once had a gentleman who DEMANDED we not sing Amazing Grace…because he wasn’t a wretch and doesn’t need to hear that…..when gently told we were still going to sing it…actual response…I pay your salary.


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    Christiane wrote:

    same is required by the Followers of Trump – I shall never forget when Trump tried to get them to give him a raised hand salute . . . thank God it didn’t take, at least ‘not yet’ . . . dark times ahead, yes

    Today, on The Wartburg Watch, Christine compares Donald Trump to Adolf Hitler.

    I think Friday the 13th brings out the crazy in some people.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    We once had a gentleman who DEMANDED we not sing Amazing Grace…because he wasn’t a wretch and doesn’t need to hear that…..when gently told we were still going to sing it…actual response…I pay your salary.

    I hope he was like 85, because that’s kind of hilarious.


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    @ Adam Borsay:
    If pastoring is hard there are other career options but you will probably end up working for a jerk there, too, with whom you have to see everyday– not just on weekends. Or, you can put them under church discipline and hope they still tithe during the process. :o)


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    @ Adam Borsay:
    Pastor response with grace: I understand if you feel led not to help pay it.

    I am not really understanding the problem here, Adam. In the real world we have direct reports who do and say very stupid things that we must negotiate every day and we are responsible for to the people who sign the checks. It is often a mine field. It is called life.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    It is getting old. All of it. Trump does not make the oligharcical (now stinking rich, too) Orwellian Hillary into Mother Theresa. There is a nasty history there. I am certainly not going to go along with rewriting it.


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    Uncle Dad wrote:

    The organized “church” did not exist when the New Testament was written. Constantine resurrected the Babylonian religion for the purpose of controlling people.

    I’m sorry, but this is a-historical rubbish.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Driscoll took a bunch of money instead of paying people back and is trying to build another Empire. My guess is Mahaney took a bunch of money, too.

    My question is still, what happens when the money runs out? Is SGCL self-sufficient yet, or are they still running on SGM monies? Can Driscoll collect enough new naive giving units in Phoenix before the Mars Hill dollars dwindle? I think their tone will change.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Nobody is as Concerned as a sociopath, as Compassionate as a sociopath, as NICE as a sociopath, as Sincere as a sociopath, as Innocent as a sociopath, as Unjustly Wronged as a sociopath, as Persecuted as a sociopath — until the instant you Outlive Your Usefulness.

    That matches my experience, too.


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    @ Adam Borsay:
    Hi Adam, I enjoyed your comments. I thought you gave a reasonable explanation and I’m sorry for the way some people here have chosen to interpret your words. You seem to have a fine character and don’t seem contentious or malicious in the least bit to me.

    Thank you giving your life to serve the Lord and to labor in the fields for His Name’s sake. It’s not easy. And it doesn’t make it any easier when you come here and share your experience of dealing with critical church members only to be faced with critical blog commenters. You were probably hoping for some encouragement and understanding.

    Well, I’m here to say keep up the good work Adam. May the Lord bless and strengthen your heart and refresh you in your labors, for the harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few.

    I thank God that you are a good leader and that you recognize a problem such as CJ Mahaney. I sat under his misleadership for 12 years. I’ve learned how to spot the bad guys, and you’re certainly not one of them.

    Many, many blessings to you and may the Lord strengthen you in His joy and multiply His grace in your life, enabling you to stand, and then to keep standing!


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    Lydia wrote:

    In the real world we have direct reports who do and say very stupid things that we must negotiate every day and we are responsible for to the people who sign the checks. It is often a mine field. It is called life.

    The important difference is that you don’t report to every single person below you and above you. In most businesses you are responsible to the tasks given to you by your supervisor. If somebody in another department doesn’t like how you are using your budget towards the end of accomplishing the task you have been assigned, you aren’t beholden to their criticisms.

    In a church, while every giving member has obviously made a choice to invest in the work of that church, you cannot also poll every single person for every single decision. Each church has specific goals and missions. As we choose to join a church we are choosing to be a part of that direction. A healthy church is when there is unity in that direction and the allocation of resources and the choices made towards accomplishing that goal.

    Whether your church is governed by Elders, elected Elders, or congregational votes, once a direction has been set, a goal has been defined, it is important to support the work of the ministry. To insert again, I am not including sin into agreed decisions, if there is sin–ie, the church leadership decides to protect an abuser—then make a big stink about it!!! You can’t function if every time someone has a different opinion about some non-essential you change everything you are doing.

    Where I think I agree with you….you do have to justify and explain why you do what have done. If most everyone is appalled and angry because of irresponsibility, then you have to willing to recognize you have made some significant mistakes.

    A related example. I heard a great lithmus test of being a church planter. If you can’t get five other churches to support you, you aren’t a church planter. Meaning, you might think it is a good idea, but if no one else does, you probably are mistaken.

    Point being, of course you need to be responsive and gracious when people have questions, but the virtue of giving to the church doesn’t mean you get to demand your personal preferences in opposition to the stated mission and goals of the church.


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    Mara wrote:

    It makes one wonder what is really going on between his ears. What does he really believe about God, justice, and eternity. Because though he levels eternal judgment against others as a weapon, he lives as though it is nothing he should be concerned about for himself.

    The obvious conclusion is, people like this do not actually believe in a real God who sees and weighs them, or else they see God as an extension of themselves.


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    Stunned wrote:

    I know sociopaths and they know how to twist truth like nobody’s business.

    They are like a virus of the human race.
    Or tares among the wheat?


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    If somebody in another department doesn’t like how you are using your budget towards the end of accomplishing the task you have been assigned, you aren’t beholden to their criticisms.

    You are if they convince your boss! And although you don’t work for everyone in a company, if you have customers, clients, other departments you deal with? Their opinion does matter.

    In life, people will complain, so too in church. We’re human. The key is to see why they are complaining, and to be honest with yourself about whether that person is just difficult or if you are doing something that is divisive.

    (I do wonder if elder led is not more prone to this kind of middling complaint, since most of the church gets no say except to pack up and leave, but I have no data on that)


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    Deb wrote:

    And Paige Patterson is speaking at the upcoming 9Marx conference in Fort Worth.

    Well, I must admit that on one level I am surprised. He was president when my wife and I attended SEBTS, and he openly ridiculed the Reformed persuasion from the chapel pulpit (there were only a handful of us – none of us were Neo Cals/ 9Marxists/ DudeBros, etc. – and since the Chapel was painfully cold, we really were the “frozen chosen”).

    However, he has a keen nose for taking people’s money preparing for the future and he knows that more and more future students will arrive heavily influenced by the 9Marx/Mohler movement, therefore he doesn’t want SWBTS to appear hostile to their way of thinking and thus not a viable option. Smart business move on his part.


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    He wouldn’t deign to befriend anyone in his congregations!

    I know bosses that are exactly like that. Kiss up, kick down.


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    @ Lydia:

    Oh, I wanted to add one more general thought about how a church does what it does, specifically in relation to the money that people have entrusted to the usage of that church.

    Micro-managing every decision is counter-productive to effective ministry. An effective ministry has a degree of latitude to operate within the agreed upon parameters that NEED to be clearly laid out and explained.

    For example:(speaking a bit generically) I have been hired/appointed/entrusted with a specific ministry task. Let’s call it, community outreach. With specific benchmarks, such as; Serving the underserved population in our community(jobless, homeless, addicts, orphans, etc). I have been selected for the position due to a visible history of aptitude and calling to that particular type of ministry. They set my budget at 10k. At that point, I am free to run with it. They have entrusted and released me to accomplish the task that they have assigned me. They don’t want to be constantly checking up on every little thing I am doing, they operate with trust towards my track record of trustworthiness and skill in that area.

    Now, at the end of the year we can evaluate the details. If it is found that nothing was accomplished and the money is gone…there is a problem. But if our goals are being met, then we are all good. And, during the year, running with the assumption that I can actually accomplish what they believe I can, if some Tom, Dick or Jane shows up and complains about some minute detail of a choice I made, the first response should be to reiterate trust in me and support for what is going on.

    I have worked in an environment where every complainer gets immediately believed and you are constantly playing defense. Instead of pushing forward, you are always on your heels. You feel beat up, untrusted and unvalued. NO ONE stays long in those conditions.


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    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    Really, I was taught it was the blood of Christ that kept me from going to hell?? So, it really is CJ and my pastor that is keeping me from going to hell?

    My thought exactly!


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    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    Uncle Dad wrote:

    The organized “church” did not exist when the New Testament was written. Constantine resurrected the Babylonian religion for the purpose of controlling people.

    I’m sorry, but this is a-historical rubbish.

    And a fundamental axiom of Anti-Catholic Hate Literature since Hislop’s “Two Babylons”, though I’ve also seen it in Seventh-Day Adventist literature.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    All that to say, CJM is not in any position to teach these things, but the principle is important.

    Adam, I think that you are merely describing being open and honest about dealing with issues that come up, not a need for leadership to have some kind of special protections.


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    In an article on “A Cry for Justice”, Jeff Crippen calls this ‘Reflective blaming’– taking the focus off the abuser. He says, ” Don’t try to remove guilt from yourself by deflecting it to me. I am not guilty of abuse. You are.” In my opinion, this is what Mahaney is doing!


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    Ron Oommen wrote:

    Can I suggest strong Gnostic elements in this obsession with the soul – almost as the body and this present life is of no importance. Maybe that is why there seems to be this disregard for the abused?

    You certainly can Ron. And Lydia too from up-thread. From my own investigations and what elastigirl refers to as experiential data from real life, I believe that body and soul are an integral unit. You can’t have one without the other. I believe that the idea of a sharp bifurcation between the two is a product of Hellenism and its influence on Western theology.
    I no longer believe in the concept of an immortal soul. I am now convinced that the only thing that leaves the body upon expiration from this world is the Almighty’s gift of life-force which animates all living creatures.


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    @ Lea:

    I 100% agree. I would contend that the first response is support of the leadership. But to have wise discernment. To go back to the cross issue at our church…some older folks wanted to understand it more and came to talk…after talking through purpose and reasons they were like…ok, I miss it, but I understand. And that was the end of it. It was the other people, good ole Chrislam accusers, that fell in a different category.

    If you were a giving member at my church and saw me out using the church credit card to buy myself a steak and lobster dinner you obviously deserve for my leadership to deal with my malfeasance. But if you are coming to complain because you don’t like the brand of 12 seater van I purchased to pick up latch key kids for an afterschool program…I hope they gently shut down that sort of absurdity.

    Good leadership employs wise discernment to address complaints and criticisms. If you ever served in music leadership at a church….EVERY week someone complains. Not exagerratting. Good leadership doesn’t go to the music director every week and say, “Well Joe, it looks like you picked a bad hymn again”. You filter what is legitimate and what is absurd. Protect your leaders from absurdity and gracefully deal with the legitimate. And members and leaders alike have a responsibility to guard peoples hearts from illegitimate and destructive criticisms.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    To go back to the cross issue at our church…some older folks wanted to understand it more and came to talk…after talking through purpose and reasons they were like…ok, I miss it, but I understand.

    See, now I’m sort of sad for them. They’re old. They want a cross. Maybe you could get a temporary cross that you can up for sundays? I want to fix this for you, heh.

    I think we’re mostly in agreement, I just get concerned with the shifting of focus on ‘Protect. The. Leaders’. That’s not really you necessarily, just a general concern.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
    Uncle Dad wrote:
    The organized “church” did not exist when the New Testament was written. Constantine resurrected the Babylonian religion for the purpose of controlling people.
    I’m sorry, but this is a-historical rubbish.
    And a fundamental axiom of Anti-Catholic Hate Literature since Hislop’s “Two Babylons”, though I’ve also seen it in Seventh-Day Adventist literature.

    ————-
    Thank you both for your observations.

    My comment was not made against the RCC. My broader point is that modern day forms of organized church did not exist when the New Testament was written.


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    The ironic thing is, because of his actions, nobody will protect their pastors. Pastors once affiliated with SGM are attacked by those loyal to SGM and attacked by those who aren’t. The bottom line is, nobody will ever trust or protect their pastors again. Well-meaning conscientious pastors who love the Lord and are seeking to follow him are facing a barrage of gunfire from skeptical members who distrust their motives.

    Each year in the pastor’s college graduation, CJ gives an ominous exhortation (threat) that he NEVER hear a bad report about any of them.

    Now, ALL of these pastors are dealing with the wreckage of his divisive hypocrisy and failing in their home churches.

    Now, EVERY pastor affiliated with T4G that was never associated with SGM is coming home to distrustful congregations because of T4G’s choice to embrace Mahaney.

    He’s not just splitting his founding church. He’s splitting the Protestant Christian world by his refusal to repent. And…it isn’t “advancing the Gospel”.

    The distraction his sin has caused churches has kept pastors from being able to tend to the very real needs of their flocks. Pastors are spending all of their time solving their own spiritual identity crisis, trying to determine the new direction of their churches, solving issues of polity and affiliation and having to answer to their congregations for CJ’s behavior.


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    Lea wrote:

    They want a cross. Maybe you could get a temporary cross that you can up for sundays?

    But that’s the thing, WE DO have a temporary cross. The problem is that it isn’t a permanent focal point. The funny thing is, for easter we contructed a beautiful “rugged” cross that is now hanging at the entrance to the sanctuary and we have two mobile crosses up front….and we got a complaint last week…quoting…Why do you have to have so many crosses…..

    You can’t win for trying 😉


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Why do you have to have so many crosses…..

    Ha!


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    @ siteseer:
    I share your interpretation. Well stated.


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    Lea wrote:

    I think we’re mostly in agreement, I just get concerned with the shifting of focus on ‘Protect. The. Leaders’. That’s not really you necessarily, just a general concern.

    I think the broader implication of the passage is not protect the leader…at all costs…but the importance of being supportive of leadership. There is no way a pastor can make everyone happy all the time. Whether we put up no crosses, 1 cross, or multiple crosses, SOMEONE is going to have an opinion on it. We need to be gracious, but we can’t just keep changing with every opinion.

    Too often church leadership is bogged down with navigating and trying to appease non-essentials. In the same week we will get a complaint about music being too loud AND it being to quiet. There are some days that it would be nice to actually deal with a real issue. Not that I want real issues to be an issue, but that at least is of consequential life value. Helping someone with a broken marriage is a lot more valuable then writing the 15th email to explain why we didn’t do a specific event(true story).

    Healthy churches put down their rights and preferences to the end of the work they are entrusted to. Unhealthy churches get lost in the weeds making sure everyone is super comfortable and their preferences are getting equal time.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Why do you have to have so many crosses…..

    You can’t win for trying

    This is actually getting pretty humorous…

    Just an aside, do you have a jilted church cross salesperson in your congregation? heh Just kidding!


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    Another One wrote:

    In an article on “A Cry for Justice”, Jeff Crippen calls this ‘Reflective blaming’– taking the focus off the abuser. He says, ” Don’t try to remove guilt from yourself by deflecting it to me. I am not guilty of abuse. You are.” In my opinion, this is what Mahaney is doing!

    Isn’t there some study somewhere that found this to be the most characteristic sign of a sociopath?


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    I no longer believe in the concept of an immortal soul. I am now convinced that the only thing that leaves the body upon expiration from this world is the Almighty’s gift of life-force which animates all living creatures.

    I think the Intermediate State and separate soul was a way to keep continuity between the Mortal and Resurrection bodies; if there was no existence of your consciousness between death and resurrection (as the JW’s teach), the “resurrection” would actually be a cloning; you would still have ceased to exist at death and a new copy of you would have been created ex nihilo — no direct connection whatsoever.

    Like the Trekkie back-and-forths about the Transporter — is it really YOU who materializes or only a separate copy of the YOU who dematerialized in the Transporter Room?


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    @ Yentl:
    I know right! I mean this whole thing has been incredibly damaging, yet the man will not remove himself from the stage, and men like Al Mohler, Kevin DeYoung, Ligon Duncan, John Piper and Mark Dever will not relent in their endorsement of the man!

    For crying out loud!!

    I mean what is it? Do they believe that because Mahaney has aligned himself with them and adheres to their doctrines, that innocence and righteousness are automatically and unquestionably conferred upon him?!

    I’ve stated here and do so without any doubt (not saying others need to agree with me, but it makes perfect sense based on all the evidence) that Mahaney isnt even the real deal! His whole “I’m a Christian leader” is a fraud. He’s a fraud.

    Why are people so unwilling to suspect this man of conducting a fraudulent ministry? Can’t they see he’s a Con Artist? Are they so self assured that they think no one could ever pull the wool over their eyes?! I mean, Con Artist do just that – they work by gaining your confidence, but in the end you’re damaged by their deception. What must these men care about if they’re not able to identify and protect the church they seem to care so much about from individuals like Mahaney?

    I’m baffled. Something opened the door to all this though. I suspect it has to do with rebellion, and not in the true Protestant sense!


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    Adam, you sound legitimately burned out.

    @ Adam Borsay:


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Note that this is not “soul-sleep” in the sense of the Seventh-Day Adventists. That says your consciousness, memory trace, and first-person POV still exist “in stasis/storage” for the Resurrection; your consciousness still exists, but “jump-cuts” from the moment of death to the moment of resurrection with no memory of the time in-between. Without a body, you’re just not conscious of the fact (or of the passage of time).


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    I mean what is it? Do they believe that because Mahaney has aligned himself with them and adheres to their doctrines, that innocence and righteousness are automatically and unquestionably conferred upon him?!

    Purity of Ideology, Comrades.
    Party First, Comrades.
    (especially the Inner Ring of the Inner Party…)


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    @ siteseer:

    It can be quite humorous, when you can deal with it from a healthy place.

    Sadly, this stuff isn’t rare. Most people who attend a church are never even aware of how common this sort of absurdity is. Now to be clear, when leadership is unhealthy, the way the deal with these things can become the problem itself.

    Something that I wanted to add to all of this. I forget who, but they mentioned finding a compromise. Finding a compromise for peoples self-centeredness is never a good idea, nor a plan for long term health.

    Here is why; Take unhealthy selfish church member Joe and healthy selfless church member Jane. Jane is excited about the mission and purpose of the church. Joe is just looking for a place to feel comfortable on Sunday. Joe complains about some mundane decision of the church and even though it really isn’t a big deal, changes are made to accomadate his selfish desire. The church wants to compromise and keep Joe happy. Jane doesn’t make a stink about it, even though it is different than her preference because she practices putting others first.

    But what does Jane intuitively learn. That the loud selfish complainers get what they want, and the quiet selfless people keep sacrificing to make the Joe’s of the church happy. On the surface this seems like a good peacekeeping church. But the Jane’s of the church, as the observe this pattern over and over, they recognize that the mission of the church has been co-opted by providing personal preference comforts for the selfish Joe’s of the church. The Janes, the ones you can really build a ministry around, don’t stay in those conditions. They leave for a church where mission matters above preferences. Now your church is full of selfish Joe’s, And sadly, those Joe’s don’t even agree with eachother, so you spend all your energy making sure each individual is getting what they want. Your focus becomes completely internalized.

    The outflow of trusting and supporting leadership is that the Joe’s of the church aren’t given the power to be selfish, and the Jane’s are empowered to do ministry.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    I really think that must be it! Along with a sprinkling of some black magic blinding dust.


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    Lea wrote:

    (I do wonder if elder led is not more prone to this kind of middling complaint, since most of the church gets no say except to pack up and leave, but I have no data on that)

    Good point. Elder rule…err…led is set up for systemic dictatorshios. Even if they have elections. Like Congress they make rules that benefit themselves.

    I will take the contentious old style Baptist business meeting any day of the week. There are always two or three curmudgeons or complainers in the group. Even though such polity can look like sausage making it is a lot safer than these dictatorships we are seeing.

    In my former Church, before the reformers took over, the pastor was not even on the budget committee! He was literally given a budget for his Department. And he would not have wanted it any other way!

    When it is everyone’s Church it can get really messy.

    But these days people have been trained to look to their Pastor for everything. It has been a disaster for the church.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Here is why; Take unhealthy selfish church member Joe and healthy selfless church member Jane. Jane is excited about the mission and purpose of the church. Joe is just looking for a place to feel comfortable on Sunday. Joe complains about some mundane decision of the church and even though it really isn’t a big deal, changes are made to accomadate his selfish desire. The church wants to compromise and keep Joe happy. Jane doesn’t make a stink about it, even though it is different than her preference because she practices putting others first.

    My writing partner (the burned-out preacher) largely burned out on Joe after Joe dominating the church by “gatekeeper” clout. He’s even been told to his face “Your only purpose is to Keep Us Comfortable!”

    Second lesson: Like any mooch-and-sucker show, the REAL top of the food chain is the Parasite (Joe) who knows how to Game the System.

    Third lesson: Whoever makes the biggest stink/throws the loudest and most disruptive temper tantrum (Joe) WINS. Especially if the disruption goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on…

    But what does Jane intuitively learn. That the loud selfish complainers get what they want, and the quiet selfless people keep sacrificing to make the Joe’s of the church happy. On the surface this seems like a good peacekeeping church. But the Jane’s of the church, as the observe this pattern over and over, they recognize that the mission of the church has been co-opted by providing personal preference comforts for the selfish Joe’s of the church.

    Jane learns that Joe wins and Jane loses.
    Final message: BE A JOE.


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    @ Adam Borsay:
    Adam, I was in organizational development for 25 years, a part of that spent in working with mega churches. Trust me, I know the drill.

    Listen to your normalized language: direction, Unity, can’t poll for decisions, etc. Is this the body of Christ or a tax exempt organization with leaders who want the position but not the headache?

    You had better bet I answer in some way to a lot of people (the ones who pay and ones i pay ) about every decision I make in business. It’s called being a grown up and not a dictator.

    The body of Christ is not about everybody being kept happy. It is about people functioning within their gifting that benefits everyone else. The body of Christ is not about a few people with titles making all the decisions for everyone else.

    The body of Christ is either a place where people flourish growing in wisdom or remain as children looking to their “parent” leader. Sadly most institutional churches are now more of the latter.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    My writing partner (the burned-out preacher) largely burned out on Joe after Joe dominating the church by “gatekeeper” clout. He’s even been told to his face “Your only purpose is to Keep Us Comfortable!”

    I think this is a perfect example of the value of supporting the church leadership…or lack of…. When the majority of the church is supportive, the leaders don’t have to keep fighting back all the Joes. Instead, the members themselves shut it down. Going back to my oft repeated cross story….the main Chrislam accuser…we didn’t have to deal with her…we found out, later, that one of the original, “I miss my cross” folks, found out what she was saying, confronted her, called out her sin, and dealt with it.

    I can’t tell you how much of a confidence boost, and safe you feel as a leader when even the people who don’t always agree with you support you against the Joes of the church. Too often the leadership isn’t “protected” and then we wonder, why did Pastor Sam resign….oh he resigned because you left him on an island and he had to deal with the Joes all by himself…day after day after day.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Finding a compromise for peoples self-centeredness is never a good idea, nor a plan for long term health.

    We can start with the pastors out there.

    Not the small Church pastors who are the janitor, plumber, lawn mower excetera excetera but most Pastors in Middle to large churches have it pretty easy all week. You can buy teaching curriculum off the shelf, there are a plethora of websites to choose from for sermons and everything that goes with them including video, and outline for notes!. There are tons of software programs to manage all the member information even down to doing projections for you.

    Church staffers have some of the easiest jobs in the world. And that gets them comfortable so that when a troublemaker member gives them a hard time, they freak out.

    But then I can almost remember when the bulletin had to be mimeographed.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    I can’t tell you how much of a confidence boost, and safe you feel as a leader when e

    You are supposed to be a servant.


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    @ Adam Borsay:

    The real problems come when Joe is the pastor. Or his bff.


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    Lydia wrote:

    You are supposed to be a servant.

    Did anything I have said indicate I don’t believe that? The question is “WHOSE” servant are you. You can’t be a butler to every individual in the church. You, as a leader, are entrusted with serving the WHOLE church, and that is only apropriately done in light of the church is to serve Jesus and the responsibility of all Christians to “Go and make disciples”.

    There are multiple layers of how you evaluate what it looks like to be servant. There are times when being a “servant” conflicts with being a “servant”. For example, I can serve “Joe”, but by doing so, I am not serving “Jane”. Choices have to be made, and scripture adn the mission of the church is the lens by which we evaluate that choice.

    If serving Joe is in conflict to serving the mission of the church(go and make disciples) then serving Joe is not serving our primary responsibility.

    It is easy to say, be a servant, but it is much more challenging to wisely discern what that means and what it needs to look like in the context of specific situations. Having the end all and be all of sucessfully being a servant be whether or not Joe would say I am a servant leader in his opinion is not a very helpful approach to adequately addressing the issue.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    I can’t tell you how much of a confidence boost, and safe you feel as a leader when even the people who don’t always agree with you support you against the Joes of the church. Too often the leadership isn’t “protected” and then we wonder, why did Pastor Sam resign….oh he resigned because you left him on an island and he had to deal with the Joes all by himself…day after day after day.

    I’ve never seen a pastor have it rough like this at all. Maybe in really small churches.

    I wish members could have the feeling of safety and confidence as well. I probably won’t ever again be part of an institutional church as they exist today. I don’t see them as functional bodies of believers, but I see them as leaders and then everyone else.


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    @ Bill M:

    “I am now of the opinion that there is only one flock and only one Shepherd. If I were employed by an institution that calls itself a local church I would eschew the title and find a different descriptor than “pastor”
    +++++++++++++++++

    and what a diverse flock it is. a good thing, not a bad thing.

    whatever unity of the faith means, it will surely look like a patchwork quilt & function like a jumbled-hodgepodge-dr.-suess-like machine of disparate pieces, purposefully chugging away when it happens.

    but yes to retiring the title of ‘pastor’. ‘Lead Pastor’ and my toes start curling backwards. they both should go the way of powder blue station wagons (w/navy blue shiny vinyl interior).


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    You can’t be a butler to every individual in the church. You, as a leader, are entrusted with serving the WHOLE church, and that is only apropriately done in light of the church is to serve Jesus and the responsibility of all Christians to “Go and make disciples”.

    Jesus washed feet.

    I mean I know you’re getting pushback and I’m sure you’re a nice guy. But being a servant is more than sermons.

    I do feel you on random complaints though. As I said, that really just human. My favorite was when I would organize meetings with free food and people (who btw were getting money to pay for their breakfast lunch and dinners too) would complain about the food. It’s free! Bah. But you nod politely and if there is an option to accommodate in the future you do.


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    Mahaney saying that “your soul is most important to us” is laughably grotesque. It’s like Hannibal Lecter saying that “your brain is most important to us.”


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    Bridget wrote:

    I’ve never seen a pastor have it rough like this at all. Maybe in really small churches.

    Perspective is shaped by our vantage point. As someone who has been in ministry for 15 years, and grew up in a ministry family, and converses and fellowships with all sorts of pastor and ministry leaders….what I see virtually in each of their experiences is exactly what I am describing. While there are absolutely abusive selfcentered church leaders that abuse the members, it is a rare pastor that doesn’t have a number of these stories and experiences in their ministry.

    We oversee a small church in a difficult area(joblessness, drugs, etc). The pastor is a quiet and humble guy who came because he cared about these people. But he has had a terrible experience. He started gathering supplies to have a food pantry for people in their area….he was told…not exagerratting…if you do that who knows what kind of people are going to walk into our church. Lots of latchkey kids in single parent homes, he wanted to start an after school program for them. Again, we don’t want those people here.

    The heartbreaking stories I have heard over and over—anonymous hate mail, wivese yelled at in grocery stores, criticisms for the shirt they wore(true story), go on and on. And this encompasses all types and sizes of churches. The difference between pastors and churches that move past these things and stay healthy is not that the pastor is really good at getting people in line(because that attitude just excaberates issues) but that the church members themselves stand up for the pastor. Healthy long term pastors are the ones that are able to look back and laugh at the absurdity BECAUSE they knew they were not going to be taking down by the critical Joes. The ones who knew they were alone are the ones who got burnt out and left bitter.

    This does not mean that the response is to treat pastors like God’s special annointed class who can do no wrong, their is a mutuality in protection and care. But many pew sitters(and I use that on purpose to indicate selfish consumers) think the pastor exists to be their personal servant and their feelings and life are inconsequential.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    If serving Joe is in conflict to serving the mission of the church(go and make disciples) then serving Joe is not serving our primary responsibility.

    This seems very heavy handed and reminds me of Mark Driscoll’s stance and throwing people under the bus who weren’t on board with the mission. If Christians have the Holy Spirit in them, then the Holy Spirit may call them to do something that is entirely different than the church’s “mission” and it doesn’t make them wrong or “not on board”.


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    @ Lea:

    “He must be a PASTOR! Because caste.”
    ++++++++++

    (because peepee)


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    Lea wrote:

    But being a servant is more than sermons.

    Absolutely 1000% But who defines what pastoral servant service looks like? Joe, Jane, scripture? In every situation there are competeting interests. If we don’t have a “true north” to guide how we navigate those areas we find ourselves scrambling in circles.

    When churches exist to simply exist and keep people who are there comfortable, the pastor becomes nothing more than a program manager and fire putter outter. And they become more and more beholden to every persons preferences. When a young person sets out to follow a call to ministry they don’t generally think, “one day, when I’m a pastor, I will put on the best gosh darn church luncheons!” Are luncheons servant hearted? Absolutely! But is the purpose of the church to host casserole dinners? No!


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    @ Adam Borsay:

    “I think there DOES need to be a high bar to supporting and defending church leadership. While I have personally dealt with the abuse side of leadership, I MORE often deal with unhealthy and destructive members who tear down leadership.”
    +++++++++

    could it be that it’s the church leadership model that fosters unhealthy destructive members?

    perhaps they are synergistic.

    perhaps the chicken and the egg, and which came first(?).


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    @ Adam Borsay:

    What was the thing someone quoted earlier…people don’t care how much you know till they know how much you care.

    I think when things are working right the pastor is serving the church and the members. He cares about them/they care about him. so most people are going to be supportive on these little things. (And hopefully they will have had an opportunity for input/voting but that’s my old school baptist background(. Because they know he’ll be at the hospital or to the house if they are ill, not trying to boot them off the roles so he doesn’t have to do the funeral.

    I’m saying this is meant to be a symbiotic relationship. It’s not really about ‘support your leaders’ just because.


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    Velour wrote:

    Holy Spirit may call them to do something that is entirely different than the church’s “mission” and it doesn’t make them wrong or “not on board”.

    I agree. But no church can do everything that there is possible and necessary to do. It is totally fine to not be in allignment with the specific mission and process of a church. But what do you do when you find your call in conflict with you local church? You, generally speaking, have three choices. 1- Get on board with your community, 2- Find a place that is in allignment with your passions, 3- Be contentious. Assuming that the current direction of the church isn’t sin, then the first two choices are the only acceptable ones.

    Driscoll’s response to people not being on board was less to do with mission, and a whole lot more to do with dictatorship. MH wasn’t dealing with, “We want to reach down town seatle and you want to reach the country side”.

    In our church, we have a clear mission, and process. If you want to do something that doesn’t fit in that, that’s cool. Either we help you plug in where it is happening(we have a lot of people doing “backyard” mission trips with a few other churches) or, we encourage you to do it—for instance a middle aged woman asked me if we would do a womens aerobic class…I said, we won’t do it, but you are welcome to and we can give you a room for it!


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    I may have made some progress toward what I think the soul is; or perhaps what the concept of a soul is. I think the soul is the self. Not necessarily the conscious self however.

    A corpse/cadaver is a body but there is not self there that has ever been found. A robot can be programmed to think/analyze but it is not a self. An unconscious body under general anesthesia is not conscious and not thinking at a higher level but the self is still there and will be obvious after they recover from the anesthesia. What John saw under the throne might have been selfs-it was after all a vision.

    So the word in the NT psyche, when it is translate soul, might mean what we now mean by psyche except in a somewhat broader application, that is it may mean the totality of the self.

    Can one be a soul without a body? There is that in the NT which suggests that. I obviously don’t know since I never tried to do it-yet.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    But many pew sitters(and I use that on purpose to indicate selfish consumers) think the pastor exists to be their personal servant and their feelings and life are inconsequential.

    I have never thought this about anyone – no leader/pastor especially. You come from one perspective and I come from another, one of seeing pastors abuse their positions and expecting servanthood, money, and honor from members. Your perspective is as tainted as mine, I’m sure.


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    Issue is in Hebrews 13:17, the word “obey” is “pithos”, which essentially means allow yourself to be persuadable, not to be in lock step obedience to anyone except for Jesus.

    Hebrews 13:17 must be interpreted in light of the fact that now all believers have the Holy Spirit, that all are priests, that we’re to call no one “father, teacher, etc”, that mature believers, per John, are really not in need of teachers, having the Holy Spirit to guide them.

    Hebrews 13:17 also has to be interpreted in light of Jesus’ admonition to His disciples to be the least and the last, the servant of all, in Mark 9 and Matthew 20.

    Hebrews 13:17 must also be interpreted in light of 1 Peter 5, in which Peter, inspired by the Holy Spirit, admonishes leaders to NOT lead by compulsion, but by Godly example ALONE.

    Finally, Hebrews 13:17 must be interpreted in light of numerous NT examples of both actual Christian leaders and liars who only professed to be such leaders so they could take advantage of the Bride of Christ being called out publicly by others, such as Paul calling out Peter and opposing him to his face, or Paul ridiculing the Judaizers and the Superapostles.

    In light of all of the above (and there are numerous other passages in the NT to support this maxim), one can only conclude that CJ Mahaney does not care about the truth, perhaps hates it.


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    @ Adam Borsay:
    I am going to agree with you that there are many contentious, sinful church members who make life miserable for their pastors. Gramp3 and I know of good people who are no longer in paid ministry because of that very thing.

    The difference between abusive pewpeons and abusive pastors is the effects which their abuse creates. Abusive pewpeons do not usually create Dones, people who are totally done with the institutional church. Abusive pastors create Dones by the Panamax boatload. And this is not new to the YRR. It is because people believe or are taught that the pastor speaks in the place of God himself. And people bail when they see the way certain “pastors” represent God.

    Thankfully, there are pastors like you and some others I know who have not been swept up in the latest religious fad or bamboozled by cult leaders. I’ve lived long enough to see way too many of those, and most were not Reformed.


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    Same old same old form CJ. With serious tones and much hand waving, he proclaims that his sacred duty is to watch over your soul. Yeah right….since CJ knew about .0001% of his congregation at CLC, he was doing a wee bit less than he so seriously implies.

    Besides the fact, that CJ’s actually definition of watching over your souls means policing any of those who do not into lock step with the dear leaders demand of 10% of your money and 100% of your loyalty and unquestioning submission.

    Never mind the mistakes made and the unresolved issues of the past. That is just “gossip” and “slander”, little people with no authority who don’t understand that I (CJ) am standing in God’s stead and am obligated to tell you what to do.

    Never mind Larry Tomczack, never mind Brent Detweiler, never mind Dave Harvey, never mind Josh Harris, never mind Nate Morales, never mind all the other little people at SGS Survivors and TWWW. Never mind all that, the man behind the curtain is a wiazard, er…a pastor of God’s own choosing and will you lead you through thick & thin (again, provided that it’s on your dime and you never question my judgement).

    This is exactly what CJ really means when he peddles his overseer of your soul spiel…don’t buy into his shell game of smoke and mirrors. He is not a man of his word.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    but that the church members themselves stand up for the pastor.

    They stand up for Christ.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    But many pew sitters(and I use that on purpose to indicate selfish consumers) think the pastor exists to be their personal servant and their feelings and life are inconsequential.

    The larger problem, Adam, is that “pastor”, as defined by people like CJ Mahaney (and perhaps Adam Borsay) simply does not exist at all.


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    I am going to enforce the GBTC rule and not discuss moderation. There are always reasons for people going into moderation and it has to do with our spam filter. Did you know that my comments often go into moderation?

    Just try to live with our filter. It is impt during this time since I am overwhelmed caring for sick relative. It prevents problems.


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    @ JeffB:
    LOL I mean it’s really not funny but that was funny. But it does follow that Mahaney is more interested in its flavor than its condition. What do wolves seek to devour anyway? Simply someone’s shoelaces? I don’t think so. There’s something much darker at work.


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    Lea wrote:

    so most people are going to be supportive on these little things.

    I have never yet been in a church where quibbling over stuff large and small was not going on. The church where I now am has identifiable subgroups of quibblers. I strongly suspect there may be a meeting of quibblers anonymous somewhere over there. They have not been able to trash the church, however, because there are both clerical and lay authority structures and because every reasonable accommodation has been made. Example of quibble: some rascal changed the Sunday low mass Rite I from 7:30 AM to 8:00 AM which just of course must not be tolerated because 7:30 is the required time; so they changed it back to 7:30. There are just lots of stuff like that. Quibbling occurred over some blue fabric which was used as a backdrop for the side altar; the blue fabric stayed. I am thinking Get A Life.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    In light of all of the above (and there are numerous other passages in the NT to support this maxim), one can only conclude that CJ Mahaney does not care about the truth, perhaps hates it.

    Yes, but many find this difficult to believe or accept, that someone who plays the part of the preacher is actually in league with the devil.

    What’s the Bible say? Something about an angel of light?


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    doubtful wrote:

    He is not a man of his word.

    Exactly. Nor a man of The Word.


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    okrapod wrote:

    Can one be a soul without a body? There is that in the NT which suggests that. I obviously don’t know since I never tried to do it-yet.

    That is the question. I tend to think, based on a few hints from scripture, we will have some form of mind/body being right away. (A lot more to that won’t get into here)

    However, I ask this specifically because of what Mahaney, Dever and others teach about ‘caring’ for our souls as if they are detached from our mind/body selves and we have no idea the state of this detached soul of ours…. but they do. I find it bizarre and gnostic.

    I tend to agree with Muff this is right out of Hellenistic thinking. Separating the spiritual from the material world. Dualism. Without thinking about it we are easily led to believe they have some sort of special knowledge about the spiritual world and our position in it, that we cannot have.

    Whenever they make a throwaway line like ‘care for your soul’, I have this deep urge to bring up what exactly that means. :o)


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    Something opened the door to all this though.

    My working hypothesis is that the Fab Four or someone known by them realized at some point that they would have more impact (or make more money or secure a larger legacy) Together than separately. Mahaney was not always reformed, and it just seems to me that the Fab Four have been changing positions in order to better accommodate the others. Mohler was egalitarian back when that was the cool position. Dever was not always Baptist. Mahaney was unreformed. Duncan, I suppose, has changed the least. So, what they actually have in common–authoritarianism and gender supremacy–is emphasized as a Gospel imperative while some major differences are downplayed, such as the charismatic/cessationist and credo/pedo positions. Carl Trueman has remarked on this with some puzzlement.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    whatever unity of the faith means, it will surely look like a patchwork quilt & function like a jumbled-hodgepodge-dr.-suess-like machine of disparate pieces, purposefully chugging away when it happens.

    You have said it better than I ever could!!! :o)


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    Lydia wrote:

    The body of Christ is not about everybody being kept happy. It is about people functioning within their gifting that benefits everyone else. The body of Christ is not about a few people with titles making all the decisions for everyone else.

    The body of Christ is either a place where people flourish growing in wisdom or remain as children looking to their “parent” leader. Sadly most institutional churches are now more of the latter.

    Preach it, sister!

    The organizational church’s purpose, is not the purpose of the Body of Christ.

    Let me confess right up front that the standard organizational church and its structure for worship / Sundays utterly fails, IMO, as an assembling together of those who believe in Christ.

    And as a result, attempting to solve church problems (such as the examples Adam provided) strike me as a type of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

    My understanding of the assembly of believers is so at odds with what the organization that is (and has long been) called ‘church’ that I usually avoid the topic.

    We are supposed to be a BODY. We are not supposed to be “a couple of leaders” and “a bunch of sitters”.

    A body made of different parts, with different functions, different giftings, different strengths, different weaknesses. Some parts used continuously, some parts daily, some on very rare occasions. Some functions obvious, some hidden. Some jump into action when there is danger, and some jump into action when a baby cries.

    Think of a healthy human body – and the incredible action and interaction of an incredible array of incredibly different parts – all working together as you go through your day.

    Now imagine a healthy human body that was strapped down to a gurney at birth. From head to toe – completely restrained from doing anything – except using its lips to speak..

    The lips want to talk, that’s what they do. And if the lips are put in charge of the whole body (as opposed to every part actually being connected (with their own connection!) to the head) – then the other parts of the body are going to get short-shrift.

    The lips have no need of those other parts, beyond wanting the ears to listen to them (and obey them) as they do what lips do.

    A body that is comprised of big lips, who is barely alive, has atrophied muscles, and a weak heart.

    That’s the structure for the assembly that meets in churches today.

    Lips don’t want to hear anything from the feet, or the eyes, and CERTAINLY don’t want to hear from the alimentary canal. Unless it is a chorus from those parts of “atta-boys!” to the lips.

    Bodies are messy. Infant and toddler bodies that haven’t gained sufficient control over their parts – they’re messy as well. They also yell, demand attention, are incredibly self-centered, occasionally throw conniption fits, and they whine.

    It is MUCH less messy, to just have the lips in charge and to keep all those other, unneeded body parts from participating.


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    okrapod wrote:

    I strongly suspect there may be a meeting of quibblers anonymous somewhere over there.

    Too funny!


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    Lea wrote:

    Man: Senior Pastor. Man: Music Pastor. Man: Childrens Pastor. Man: Something else Pastor, etc..etc..

    And did you notice that there is never a Sanitation Pastor?

    LOL


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    BL wrote:

    And as a result, attempting to solve church problems (such as the examples Adam provided) strike me as a type of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

    Exactly how I feel.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    I am going to agree with you that there are many contentious, sinful church members who make life miserable for their pastors.

    One of my observations is that expecting the pastor to handle everything, including the people, is the rest of the people do not grow. There is no iron sharpening iron with all the assorted noise and sparks flying. For example on this blog there is a lot of give and take, that does not happen in a typical church. If I were to speak up in a similar in a local church I would be quickly ruled of of my place.

    With the pastor in charge we miss the hurly burly conflict but we get mediocrity at best and abuse at worst.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Whenever they make a throwaway line like ‘care for your soul’

    I think it is more than just a throwaway line. I think it is spiritual blackmail that puts us in a position which we cannot question them. They are saying that what they are doing is critical because it involves our very SOULS!!! For which they will give an ACCOUNT!!! In other words, it is a pious way of saying that they are ever so much more important than the pewpeons and what ever would we do without them watching over us? I mean, could we really trust the indwelling Holy Spirit to seal and keep us? To guide us or teach us? For all practical purposes, the Holy Spirit has been made irrelevent in some LocalChurches.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Did anything I have said indicate I don’t believe that? The question is “WHOSE” servant are you. You can’t be a butler to every individual in the church

    Adam, you are unhappy with the situation. If you want the institutional position of pastor, it comes with tons of baggage because people have been taught to rely on human leaders.

    You could find a position in a 9 Marks style church where they sign a contract to obey the leader. Then you could discipline the guy about the crosses. The young restless and reformed guys who took over my former Church hardly ever work. They are off to conferences, mission trips alone, etc. And paid well not to deal with hospitals, sick, dying, needy, etc.

    It is always a ‘cake and eat it too’ situation when it comes to the word servant. I guess my question to you would be: what do you think a pastor is? What were you taught about it as a function?

    You have complained about typical stuff that goes on in churches. We are alk familuar with it. Sometimes church is the only place some people can feel important. Sometimes important people come to church and think they can be important there, too. My mom was a minister of music for years and I noticed one thing she did with those types was to ask them for help. Amazing how that works.

    But what about the teen who is on the verge of committing suicide? What about the single moms who can’t make ends meet? What about the elderly members who are lonely and can’t get out much anymore? There are tons of places to ‘pastor’. Yes you might feel like a butler and some of those situations.

    It could be that we just love our buildings and titles way too much.


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    BL wrote:

    And did you notice that there is never a Sanitation Pastor?

    My respect for a pastor would go up immeasurably if they cleaned the toilets. I think that is the 21st century equivalent of foot washing.


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    @ Gram3:
    Yes, it does sound like spiritual blackmail. All the more reason for pew peons to question and discuss the relationship of souls to minds and bodies!


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Too often church leadership is bogged down with navigating and trying to appease non-essentials. In the same week we will get a complaint about music being too loud AND it being to quiet.

    Get rid of all the amplifiers. And this is from someone who enjoys all kinds of music – loud, amplified, classical, 60s rock, bluegrass, standard hymns, choruses, etc.

    But

    I have joined in congregational singing during worship accompanied by pianos, and classical guitars, and amplified rock instruments, and massive organs, and acapella.

    I love hearing my fellow worshipers as they sing. The huge organs and the amped up rock style – can’t hear anything but myself and the organ or the amped musicians.

    IMO, it stifles the sense of community in worship and replaces it with isolation.


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    Uncle Dad wrote:

    My broader point is that modern day forms of organized church did not exist when the New Testament was written.

    Which does not make them automatically bad. Not does it make them automatically good. The fundamental question is, is this form of organization conducive to forming Christ-like communities or not?


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    Our pastor has been doing an e-mail series basically on how to do church, the care and feeding of…

    Here is part of what he said in the latest chapter of this series under why would somebody leave a church.

    “One should leave a parish community if the Gospel is not faithfully and consistently proclaimed, the sacraments are not faithfully and validly administered, and the community does not support nor challenge our Christian discipleship. The first two parts are the responsibility of the clergy and the third part is in large degree, the responsibility of the laity.”


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    Fwiw, in previous eras, the word “soul” has been used the = person, human being. You can still see thst in expressions like “not a living soul” and you’ll find it fairly often in 19th c. and older books, letters, etc. Even in general assessments of places, where a community’s population is sometimes expressed as “3,000 souls” rather than “3,000 people.”

    So, while this has nothing to do with Greek or translation, i do think it can be helpful to keep in mind that usage and definitions have changed (sometimes a great deal) over time, and that there can be many nuances that we miss in assuming that X word has always had the same meaning. Languages change over time.

    I’ve often seen refs to “care of the soul” in pre-19th c. writing. Leaving aside the arguments about dualism, it really does seem to mean the psyche. I don’t think most uses of the phrase are intended to denigrate the body. We tend to forget that until the advent of antibiotics (and other seemingly “miraculous” forms of treatment), lots of people died. Childbed fever, a suppurating cut on the hand, going to a public swimming pool in the summer… all were potentially deadly. Infant mortality was high. It’s no wonder people focused on the part of the self that many of us believe is undying, because nobody – absolutely nobody – could make the assumption that they could or would ever be safe as far as mortal illness and its end. This is still true for most people in the world today, since vety few have access to the kind of medical treatment that we take for granted.

    I think the old translation used in the Book of Common Prayer, where it’s said that Chtist will transform our “vile bodies” to be like his “glorious” body, is sldo a rejoinder to death and mortality. (This passage was and probably still is used during funerals.) Given the epidemics of smallpox, bubonic plague, cholera, thyphoid… it takes on a real poignancy. I’m willing to bet that a lot of people in the African countries recently ravaged by Ebola would relate (as we said back in the 70s).


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Take unhealthy selfish church member Joe and healthy selfless church member Jane. Jane is excited about the mission and purpose of the church. Joe is just looking for a place to feel comfortable on Sunday. Joe complains about some mundane decision of the church and even though it really isn’t a big deal, changes are made to accomadate his selfish desire. The church wants to compromise and keep Joe happy. Jane doesn’t make a stink about it, even though it is different than her preference because she practices putting others first.

    This is an excellent insight. I spent some formative years in the Church of Joe and emerged as Jane, taking that mentality with me to other congregations. Eventually I landed in a fairly healthy church but burned out when the congregation went through a time of hardship (not a scandal, for what it’s worth).

    Although I left without making a fuss, my decision to return several years later made some folks uncomfortable–and I was uncomfortable too. A few survival tips, which may work better for worshipers than clergy and staff:

    -Keep a polite distance from toxic folk, remembering that everybody will eventually need something from you.

    -Adopt Joe’s techniques, but pleasantly. Decision-makers appreciate people who care enough to say they like something. If you have to speak out against the Old Rugged Cross, do so, for your own sake, and in a kind-hearted way. People who know they’ve been listened to are more likely to accept a decision they don’t actually like.

    -Make one or two good friends who will listen to your rant, one time, over lunch. After that, remember that you are understood, and don’t rant about that topic again.

    -Listen to a friend’s rant. Marvel at the wondrous variety of rants.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And a fundamental axiom of Anti-Catholic Hate Literature since Hislop’s “Two Babylons”, though I’ve also seen it in Seventh-Day Adventist literature.

    The late Dave Hunt’s tome A Woman Rides the Beast was another fundagelical anti-Catholic propaganda screed. Thing is, Catholicism learned from its past mistakes and came to grips with the Enlightenment and The Rights of Man.
    Not so with fundagelical protestantism, the YRR, and other sects. Most, but not all, are still stuck in the 16th century.


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    @ okrapod:
    Gotcha! Same in my corner.


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    Bill M wrote:

    With the pastor in charge we miss the hurly burly conflict but we get mediocrity at best and abuse at worst.

    Yes! People tend to hate disagreement and see it as conflict when it is actually an opportunity to think deeper on a subject and discuss various positions. There is also thinking out there we have to agree on every detail in order to be friends or accomplish anything together.

    There are hills to die on. But not that many.

    And most of us know our threshold for tolerance. And we avoid those situations. I have no tolerance for authoritarian controlling or caste system churches. So I avoid them.


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    @ numo:

    Very interesting. I understand about word usage but not convinced about the influence of Greek dualism. I think that is a given in much of what we read from Protestant writings.


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    @ Lydia:
    Etymology can be fun stuff!


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Too often the leadership isn’t “protected” and then we wonder, why did Pastor Sam resign….oh he resigned because you left him on an island and he had to deal with the Joes all by himself…day after day after day.

    This did happen in the big suburban Church of Joe I attended. A very popular minister moved on, and a small faction of his supporters hounded the successor. They fanned out during every coffee hour, complaining that he had used a highfallutin Greek word during the sermon, or more broadly claiming that God had led them to challenge the church.

    As a kid I absolutely loved the successor, who was fatherly, kind, scholarly, and a great preacher. His detractors were just plain mean to anybody who did not side with them.

    Then one Sunday, the successor preached a sermon in which he announced that he was leaving. He basically explained that he had been cast as an interim pastor for five years, and expressed confidence that the church would accept the next minister.

    Problem was, this man was so good, and we had treated him so poorly, that we had trouble attracting a good replacement.


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    BL wrote:

    I love hearing my fellow worshipers as they sing.

    16 years ago almost all the churches in town canceled their Easter services and we all met together at the basketball arena. There were 10,000 people present, too bad I never heard my voice join with theirs, we were all drowned out by the “worship team”.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Each church has specific goals and missions. As we choose to join a church we are choosing to be a part of that direction. A healthy church is when there is unity in that direction and the allocation of resources and the choices made towards accomplishing that goal.

    Whether your church is governed by Elders, elected Elders, or congregational votes, once a direction has been set, a goal has been defined, it is important to support the work of the ministry.

    What is the purpose of assembling ourselves together?


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    Eeyore wrote:

    The fundamental question is, is this form of organization conducive to forming Christ-like communities or not?

    Taking a gander at the fruit – I would say “no”.


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    okrapod wrote:

    Our pastor has been doing an e-mail series basically on how to do church, the care and feeding of…

    Gutsy move! How are people responding?


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Abusive pewpeons do not usually create Dones, people who are totally done with the institutional church. Abusive pastors create Dones by the Panamax boatload.

    I’m intrigued… what effects do you think that abusive pewpeons have on their fellow pewpeons?


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    Bill M wrote:

    I think that is the 21st century equivalent of foot washing.

    When my kids were teens we were part of a Free Will Baptist church. The FWB practice ‘washing of the saint’s feet’ as part of the communion service. Our current episcopal church does foot washing on Maundy Thursday-everybody participates. The RCC Pope washes some feet on MT also-the current one making a profound statement by whose feet he washes.

    I have nothing against potty duty, but nothing in the NT mandates that the actual practice of foot washing must be abandoned. I have found it to be a very moving experience.


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    Friend wrote:

    Gutsy move! How are people responding?

    This is nothing new. I think everybody already knows this. He is just reminding people to not forget the ground rules while we deal with some unrelated changes.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    And, during the year, running with the assumption that I can actually accomplish what they believe I can, if some Tom, Dick or Jane shows up and complains about some minute detail of a choice I made, the first response should be to reiterate trust in me and support for what is going on.

    I have worked in an environment where every complainer gets immediately believed and you are constantly playing defense. Instead of pushing forward, you are always on your heels. You feel beat up, untrusted and unvalued. NO ONE stays long in those conditions.

    Anyone who has dealt with the general public knows about unsubstantiated complaints, cranky people, demanding people, judgmental people, and people who are all too eager to tell you how best to do your job.

    I have encountered this in situations spanning from my teens as a checkout clerk in a zippy mart type store AND in my 50s as the owner of a company.

    Anyone who has dealt with the corporate world has usually encountered someone either in a position of authority (although not your direct supervisor) whose goal is to make your workday painful or a coworker who joyfully sets out to accomplish the same goal – to hurt you in some way.

    FAMILIES have these same kinds of situations. The demanding one, the manipulative one, the power over you one, the take advantage of you one, the complain about you to others one, the complain about others to you one, the one who thinks that being ‘I’m just being honest’ is reason enough to make the most personal of comments about you.

    I’m not seeing how Joe the cranky church member is much different from the above situations. Is it a one-of, or does cranky Joe constantly keep stuff stirred up?

    Is Joe actually a crank, or does Joe have an underlying issue that you could actually minister to him during his complaint fest?

    And I do know that there really are people in this world who seem to exist just to make everyone around them miserable. Maybe that’s your Joe.

    I wanted to let you know that this sort of thing is not limited to churches and church leaders. As well as encourage you to take a closer look at the other person, just in case.


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    I ran across 1 Timothy 5:20 this morning. I must have read it dozens of times in the past, but this is the first time it really hit me. Here it is in the ESV (the favorite version of the YRR): “As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.”

    This verse looks like it applies to elders because it’s right after the guidance on how many witnesses are required to to bring an accusation against an elder. Unless I am reading it wrong, it appears that public exposure is the right way to go for cases like this so that other elders will fear. Is this the right way of reading this?


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    I’m baffled. Something opened the door to all this though. I suspect it has to do with rebellion, and not in the true Protestant sense!

    Here’s a good place to start. It’s a bit lengthy, but it’s a good launching platform for other searches. Note that Al Mohler has a big role in this.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Baptist_Convention_conservative_resurgence


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Carl Trueman has remarked on this with some puzzlement.

    It is puzzling. And I like your hypothesis. I’m starting to think they may all be ‘unconditionally elected’ to remain camped whole everyone else decamps.

    I like to watch Masterpiece Theatre on Sunday nights. I’d never seen Wallander before, but I was intrigued by Alan Cummings’ introduction. He said, “He’s a 40 year veteran of the Swedish police force who ought to retire except that he can’t resist being pulled back by his fierce sense of justice, compelled by a dogged optimism that there’s nothing that can’t be mended. Nothing. Not even the wounded soul of a weary detective.”

    I believe that – that there’s nothing that can’t be mended. I also believe there’s a time, like the Bible says, to tear, and a time to mend. For the mending to happen, there needs to be a tearing, no? Which is why I believe Mahaney must be torn off the stage in order for the mending to truly begin.

    The Fab Four are contributing to the tearing; they’re causing divisions not ‘togetherness.’ I say it’s time to declare them, along with The Gospel Coalition, rogue organizations. And may the the time of mending begin.


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    @ Ken F:
    Hi Ken, I’m going to read the info in the link you provided, but I wanted to say that although I’m only a trained theologian, I know my Bible, and I would not be involved in this struggle in a public way if I did not think there was a biblical basis for it. That’s my 2 cents.


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    My Catholic church is frequently criticized for having a Pope and requiring belief in his infallibility. However, even in our hierarchical church, we only have to accept the Pope’s teaching when he teaches Ex Cathedra – not any other time and yes, there are times when it is recommended to resist the Pope if he is teaching incorrectly and there have been saints who have done so (St. Catherine of Siena, for instance).

    Maybe CJ might want to take a page out of his (formerly) Catholic playbook. . .


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    Here’s another link that talks about the SBC Conservative Resurgence from the SBTS perspective: http://www.sbts.edu/resources/towers/semper-reformanda-and-the-southern-baptist-convention-mohler-discusses-the-conservative-on-going-resurgence/.

    A very good companion clip is this discussion between DeYoung and Mohler. The clip is only two minutes, Al Mohler’s portion starts at 1:09 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6lRMMvNCn8. This clip reveals why Calvinism is getting so much traction in the SBC.


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    Hi Ken, I’m going to read the info in the link you provided, but I wanted to say that although I’m only a trained theologian, I know my Bible, and I would not be involved in this struggle in a public way if I did not think there was a biblical basis for it. That’s my 2 cents.

    Likewise, I am not a trained theologian either. I’ve learned enough over the last year to know that Calvinism is off base and the YRR crowd is leading people astray. My goal now is to find out what is true. Looking back to church writers before Constantine’s influence is proving fruitful. But it’s difficult to know where to start because many of the early church fathers were prolific writers.


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    Bill M wrote:

    BL wrote:

    I love hearing my fellow worshipers as they sing.

    16 years ago almost all the churches in town canceled their Easter services and we all met together at the basketball arena. There were 10,000 people present, too bad I never heard my voice join with theirs, we were all drowned out by the “worship team”.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCd8JfIVK48


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    Lydia wrote:

    I tend to agree with Muff this is right out of Hellenistic thinking. Separating the spiritual from the material world. Dualism. Without thinking about it we are easily led to believe they have some sort of special knowledge about the spiritual world and our position in it, that we cannot have.

    Doesn’t “Gnostic” mean “He Who Has Special Knowledge”?


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    doubtful wrote:

    This is exactly what CJ really means when he peddles his overseer of your soul spiel…

    “Back when we had slavery, ‘Overseers’ were those whose job was to keep the slaves in line.”
    Alien Nation


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Doesn’t “Gnostic” mean “He Who Has Special Knowledge”?

    Yes. And since Calvinists claim that only Calvinists can truly understand Calvinism (they certainly believe that non-Calvinists don’t understand Calvinism), new Calvinism could be called new Gnosticism. Food for thought.


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    okrapod wrote:

    Can one be a soul without a body? There is that in the NT which suggests that. I obviously don’t know since I never tried to do it-yet.

    I’m in no hurry to try.


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    @ BL:
    Good comment! So true.


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    JeffB wrote:

    Mahaney saying that “your soul is most important to us” is laughably grotesque. It’s like Hannibal Lecter saying that “your brain is most important to us.”

    I always look at it as “Souls — not People”.

    To a lot of Christians, Souls(TM) are just the currency of Heaven — amass riches “Soul-Winning(TM)”, hand over a check for 10,000 Souls you’ve won/gotten “and that’s how you get invited in (chuckle chuckle)”.


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    Bridget wrote:

    I’ve never seen a pastor have it rough like this at all. Maybe in really small churches.

    YES in really small churches.
    That’s what burned out my writing partner.


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    @ Ken F:
    It’s is kind of interesting you have several interesting examples of Paul calling out Peter and John writing about Diotrephes for all to read over the years. (No private rebukes first, btw)

    The argument has been these are leaders so it was appropriate. So, they just add the caste system to scripture when Jesus said not to.

    It is the same argument that only pastors/ministry people can rebuke each other.

    Not sure making any argument with the authoritarian types matter. Its always “slander or gossip”. It’s the pew peons, like ourselves, we hope to reach with such questions.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    YES in really small churches.
    That’s what burned out my writing partner.

    And a lot of them are bi vocational to make ends meet.


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    I wanted to say that although I’m only a trained theologian

    I could let this stand and leave you with this impression, sorta like saying SGM’s grueling 10-month long Pastor’s College is the equivalent of a 3-year seminary degree, or that some mysterious person passed CJ a hash pipe and he was saved by something other than the smoke and the mirrors.

    I could leave you with the impression that I’m an Apostle, a Team Leader, a World-Class Speaker, and that what I say is the most important thing in the life of the whole church.

    But I’m not a fraud and I don’t hide behind a false identity, so I’ll tell you straight:

    That was a typo. My phone can be cheeky. It should have read, “I’m not a trained theologian.”


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    Ken F wrote:

    But it’s difficult to know where to start because many of the early church fathers were prolific writers.

    Yes, imagine a time before TV, the internet, or modern appliances. Imagine scratching everything out with a quill pen!

    A good book can definitely change your life. I know there have been a few times when I know I was led to discover a certain book, because it contained the knowledge I was searching for. If we seek we shall find!


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    BL wrote:

    I wanted to let you know that this sort of thing is not limited to churches and church leaders. As well as encourage you to take a closer look at the other person, just in case.

    I agree, but there is something distinctive about behavior in churches. Do we let our guard down too much? Bring “high expectations” and “high standards” that sometimes amount to unyielding demands or impossible needs?

    In church I am more easily hurt and more protective of others than in secular settings. I have to remain aware of these tendencies, which come from earlier experiences of abusive churches, but also from a belief that church ought to be kinder than the corner supermarket, and more intimate than a workplace.

    What’s the difference between a churchgoer and a customer or co-worker? Should there be a difference?


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    Ken F wrote:

    it’s difficult to know where to start

    Free advice: I start with a reasonably good encyclopedia and follow the clues from there. Don’t spend a dime before you check out what is available on line. And, unless the issue is one in which I am a professional with the credentials to show for it I follow this rule of thumb: never believe anything you hear and believe only half at most of what you read–until you personally check it out further.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Bridget wrote:

    I’ve never seen a pastor have it rough like this at all. Maybe in really small churches.

    YES in really small churches.
    That’s what burned out my writing partner.

    The church that drove off our senior minister was a big, thriving place. Every church has factions, but some are more potent than others. Of course, everybody who disagreed with the faction was labeled a schismatic.

    The wonderful picture book Fly High, Fly Low has this passage about a battered pigeon:

    In the street gutter below, all bruised and weary, he hobbled along, muttering to himself, “People! It’s all people’s fault!”

    But then he began to think of the kind man.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Doesn’t “Gnostic” mean “He Who Has Special Knowledge”?

    Papa Chuck (founder of Calvary Chapel) taught that in the resurrection, the physical body is not brought back to life and animation, but rather God is forced, to manufacture a new body which is compatible with ‘the spirit’, since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Whether he was privy to some speshul knowledege not available to regular pew serfs, or if he just put his own spin on what the Bible says or does not say, I was Berean enough to do my own homework and come to my own conclusion that Smith was full of….er….ah….horse poo-poo.


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    @ elastigirl:
    @ Adam Borsay:

    hi, adam.

    I wanted to clarify that my comment above was concerning church leadership models / unhealthy destructive members in general. wondering if one fuels the other. also wondering where the initial cause lies (church leadership model X fosters member behavior Y, or member behavior Y led to church leadership model X)


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    @ Ken F:
    I read all those links. That was helpful and informative! I had known bit and parts, but that was a more comprehensive overview and served to refresh my memory on some of the events I had read about before.

    In the Wikipedia article, the “Hostile Meeting” in Denver was described in which Herschel H. Hobbs (I mean, really, who names their kid that, but I digress) the “respected elder statesman and former SBC president” was booed when he “urged restraint.”

    Then in the SBTS article and the video, Mohler addressed SBC’s Calvinism (great video by Peter Lumpkins).

    And then my mind took a brief detour and I remembered my dear old friends, Calvin and Hobbes!

    I appreciated all the info, thank you Ken.


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    @ Paula Rice:

    While I was investigating Calvinism, my wife started looking at the Pietistic and Holiness movements. The connections are pretty amazing. At one point it gets hard to remember all the details, but key names keep popping up. Threads run through the Jesus People, the shepherding movement, the Pentecostals. We mutually found links a few months ago. It would take me some time to go back and reconstruct, which I don’t have time to do right now.


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    @ Ken F:
    Get your wife on here commenting! That’s great you two are, like, literally, on the same page 🙂


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    @ Muff Potter:
    That sounds like his personal workaround. It’s nothing I’ve heard before, though i have indeed heard a lot of crazy things. (One regarding how we get a supernatural impartation of Jesus’ genes and DNA as part of the new birth, now that is one of the nuttiest, but there are others thst run pretty close…)


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    @ numo:

    Smith was obsessed with what I believe to be the false dichotomy of the ‘flesh’ vs. the ‘spirit’, with infractions of a sekshul nature being the absolute worst ‘sins’ of all fleshly existence (he had all the clobber texts to prove it too).
    So it’s no marvel then, that contempt and loathing of what it means to be human, could cause such a one to manufacture a sweet by and by in the sky with little or no connection to this present world.


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    Ken F wrote:

    But probably my biggest beef with MacArthur’s theology is his insistence on Penal Substitution as the only proper foundation for any view of the atonement. Here’s quite a startling quote: “the ultimate reality is that believers have been saved from God.” (see http://www.gty.org/blog/B131002/heavens-perspective-on-the-cross-satisfaction.) How does one get to the point where the good news of the Gospel is Jesus saving us from God?!? Where is that in the Bible? MacArthur’s only solid proof-text is his definition of the word propitiation, which is a Latin translation of a Greek word that does not have an unambiguous meaning (see http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2012/06/22/the-wrath-of-god-satisfied/). The more I study this, the more I am starting to believe that early church would have condemned penal substitution as heresy because of how it divides the Trinity.

    Thank you for this thought provoking post. You are, of course, correct, that early Christians would have never put up with the theological shenanigans of dome of these folk.


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    Ken F wrote:

    But probably my biggest beef with MacArthur’s theology is his insistence on Penal Substitution as the only proper foundation for any view of the atonement. Here’s quite a startling quote: “the ultimate reality is that believers have been saved from God.” (see http://www.gty.org/blog/B131002/heavens-perspective-on-the-cross-satisfaction.) How does one get to the point where the good news of the Gospel is Jesus saving us from God?!? Where is that in the Bible? MacArthur’s only solid proof-text is his definition of the word propitiation, which is a Latin translation of a Greek word that does not have an unambiguous meaning (see http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2012/06/22/the-wrath-of-god-satisfied/). The more I study this, the more I am starting to believe that early church would have condemned penal substitution as heresy because of how it divides the Trinity.

    Thank you for this thought provoking post. You are, of course, correct, that early Christians would have never put up with the theological shenanigans of dome of these folk.
    elastigirl wrote:

    but yes to retiring the title of ‘pastor’. ‘Lead Pastor’ and my toes start curling backwards. they both should go the way of powder blue station wagons (w/navy blue shiny vinyl interior).

    Good heavens, yes!! The whole thing makes my skin creep. What ever happened to “Brother” [name here]. I suppose it went out when the inmates took over the zoo…..


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    The heartbreaking stories I have heard over and over—anonymous hate mail, wivese yelled at in grocery stores, criticisms for the shirt they wore(true story), go on and on. And this encompasses all types and sizes of churches. The difference between pastors and churches that move past these things and stay healthy is not that the pastor is really good at getting people in line(because that attitude just excaberates issues) but that the church members themselves stand up for the pastor.

    I have been in churches like this before. It can get very sick. People attend church out of many different motivations. When I was a new Christian I naively assumed people went to church because they were believers and loved the Lord. Boy was I mistaken! Some do. Many go for other reasons. And many pastors and evangelists are anxious to fill their pews with unbelievers, too.

    One church I went to, everything was out in the open. We had meetings where ideas were put out there and people voted. When “Joe” got voted down, he took his ball and left. Other churches I attended felt it was best to keep “Joe” and his doings as secret as possible, I guess believing the less press they got, the sooner they’d die down. I found this to be like a dysfunctional family where everyone knows something is very wrong but no one can talk about it.

    I don’t know the answer, I’m sure it varies with the situation, but when people- all of them, from pastor to parishioner- stand up for truth, I think things work out the best.


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    Bill M wrote:

    16 years ago almost all the churches in town canceled their Easter services and we all met together at the basketball arena. There were 10,000 people present, too bad I never heard my voice join with theirs, we were all drowned out by the “worship team”.

    What used to be a corporate experience is now an audience and a performance.


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    @ Lydia:

    “what Mahaney, Dever and others teach about ‘caring’ for our souls …

    …Without thinking about it we are easily led to believe they have some sort of special knowledge about the spiritual world and our position in it, that we cannot have.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    these knuckleheads?!? you make me laugh.

  322. Pingback: Weekend Link List | Thinking Out Loud


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    zooey111 wrote:

    Good heavens, yes!! The whole thing makes my skin creep. What ever happened to “Brother” [name here].

    Brother so and so makes my skin crawl, too. I like calling someone named Bob, Bob. Not Pastor Bob or Brother Bob. Any title I find odd. We don’t call firemen, Fireman Bob or a grocery store clerk, Grocery Clerk Bob. They’re just Bob. Why the need for titles in the church when we’ve eschewed them in the rest of the world? If we need a new person in the church to figure out who the minister is, well, they’ll figure it out when the person whose giving the sermon gets up to give it. Other than that, we’re all to love each other and NOT be a respecter of persons. If we’re going with titles, then people can start calling me, One Hot Sexy Momma Though Terribly Delusional Stunned


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    Lydia wrote:

    Without thinking about it we are easily led to believe they have some sort of special knowledge about the spiritual world and our position in it, that we cannot have.

    Yup


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    But what does Jane intuitively learn. That the loud selfish complainers get what they want, and the quiet selfless people keep sacrificing to make the Joe’s of the church happy.

    On the surface of it, it may sound like Joe is a jerk.

    But as someone who was strongly conditioned by church culture and my traditional mother to be a doormat – because Jesus wants women to be doormats, don’t you know – I would have to commend Joe for speaking up and getting his needs and preferences met.
    (Rather than remaining quiet, stuffing them down, to be perceived as nice and accommodating.)

    There is something to be said for the “squeaky wheel gets the grease” expression.

    All my years of not speaking up for what I wanted, of putting me and my needs dead last, got me nothing but buckets of resentment and depression, and I was more than occasionally used and taken advantage of people who could see I had a hard time saying “no.”


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Jane learns that Joe wins and Jane loses.
    Final message: BE A JOE.

    There is actually a lot of truth in that, and it’s not necessarily a bad thing to be a Joe. (I just left a post above this one, not published yet, about this same issue.)

    Up until a few years ago, I was the “Jane.” I was the doormat martyr who always put herself and her needs last. My needs went unmet.

    I ended up exploited by people and felt poorly about myself.

    I’ve since learned it’s okay for me to put me first on occasion and go after what I want, and to ask others for what I need, and to speak up and let others know I disagree with them if or when I do. I am way more happy as a result.

    I do not want to go back to being a Jane.

    There might be some people who are truly selfish, but I am wary if or when I see Christians bash having normal boundaries on Christian oriented-blogs, because most Christian culture today already encourages believers to be codependent, wimpy doormats, who then confuse having normal self-interest with being “selfish.”

    That message is a sure fire receipt for also producing burn out in Christians, and setting the single women up for attracting con artists or selfish boyfriends / husband material.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Not the small Church pastors who are the janitor, plumber, lawn mower excetera excetera but most Pastors in Middle to large churches have it pretty easy all week. You can buy teaching curriculum off the shelf, there are a plethora of websites to choose from for sermons and everything that goes with them including video, and outline for notes!. There are tons of software programs to manage all the member information even down to doing projections for you.

    There’s this one TV preacher I used to enjoy watching when I was younger. I learned a few years ago his yearly salary from his church is something like $300k to $400k.
    I am at a loss to understand how or what this guy does that is of that value. All he does is give a sermon once or twice a week…

    And as you said (and as I’ve learned on other sites) many of these preachers don’t do their own work. They have ghost writers that write their books, they purchase already made sermons from sermon sites, etc.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    For example, I can serve “Joe”, but by doing so, I am not serving “Jane”.

    Jane needs to assert herself more. I used to be a Jane.

    Since I switched to more Joe-like behavior (which has been getting a bad wrap in this conversation so far), my life has been made easier and less complicated.


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    Velour wrote:

    Adam Borsay wrote:
    If serving Joe is in conflict to serving the mission of the church(go and make disciples) then serving Joe is not serving our primary responsibility.
    ——————
    (Velour said)
    This seems very heavy handed and reminds me of Mark Driscoll’s stance and throwing people under the bus who weren’t on board with the mission. If Christians have the Holy Spirit in them, then the Holy Spirit may call them to do something that is entirely different than the church’s “mission” and it doesn’t make them wrong or “not on board”.

    I understand that one reason for the church’s existence is to spread the Gospel, but. It’s also there to meet the needs of people who are already members.

    Galatians 6.10
    “Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.”

    There has been a trend in churches the last few years for preachers to insist their church (or The church in general) should exist ONLY to convert people.

    So, if a member (one of the sheep) asks the preacher for stronger, deeper sermons (as opposed to the usual seeker friendly watered down gruel that is used to appeal to the goats), the preachers throw fits and scream at the members like that to “self feed.”


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    When churches exist to simply exist and keep people who are there comfortable

    Who defines what “comfortable” is or means?

    As I just said in a post above, some preacher today have conniption fits if members ask them for deeper sermons.

    Some preachers (as Deb and Dee have blogged on) now refuse to visit sick members in hospitals, or to appear at funeral services, stuff like that. Some of them only want to sit on a big, cushy office chair M – F and buy a sermon off a site, and give that sermon on Sunday morning.


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    Lea wrote:

    I’m saying this is meant to be a symbiotic relationship. It’s not really about ‘support your leaders’ just because.

    I agreed with the rest of your post. I just wanted to say something about your comment I am quoting triggered memories of seeing “How to help your pastor and make his life easier” types of articles I periodically see on sites such as “Christianity Today.”

    Such articles usually make me want to puke. It seems to me a lot of preachers already have life pretty cushy and easy, but then they expect church members to treat them with even more tender, preferential treatment.


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    Bridget wrote:

    okrapod wrote:

    I strongly suspect there may be a meeting of quibblers anonymous somewhere over there.

    Too funny!

    I love the idea of quibblers anonymous!


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    or, we encourage you to do it—for instance a middle aged woman asked me if we would do a womens aerobic class…I said, we won’t do it, but you are welcome to and we can give you a room for it!

    I kind of think that is a cop out.

    As a never married lady, I see that most churches neglect adult singles. Most classes, sermons, etc, are about and for married people who have kids.

    This does not mean, should I approach a pastor at such a church to bring this topic up, that I want the onus put ON ME to start up some kind of ministry for adult singles.


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    Lydia wrote:

    ! People tend to hate disagreement and see it as conflict when it is actually an opportunity to think deeper on a subject and discuss various positions.

    Lack of conflict or disagreement rather is a bad thing for decision making! Two concepts I took with me from school: groupthink is bad. There are ways to avoid it. Churches should look at the list and incorporate some of it into their decision making process.

    We also watched a video called ‘the road to Abilene’ which is a cute little video and the point is that sometimes people are trying so hard to be nice that they don’t actually say what they really want and then the group makes a decision to do something that in the case of the little video nobody actually wanted to do (in this case: drive to Abilene). So you should speak your mind in case somebody else or everybody is thinking the same and just trying to be accommodating.

    Another thing is that people sometimes just want to be heard, even if the end decision is not what they want. This is where voting is helpful.


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    Lydia wrote:

    I tend to agree with Muff this is right out of Hellenistic thinking. Separating the spiritual from the material world. Dualism. Without thinking about it we are easily led to believe they have some sort of special knowledge about the spiritual world and our position in it, that we cannot have.

    The Fitness-Driven Church
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2013/june/fitness-driven-church.html?share=VxLW3Rg1kDznSEfgimag/rjQDisBoOk8&paging=off

    Snippet:
    ————-
    Beyond Dualism

    All this may hardly sound revolutionary, but outside the church, it challenges the prevailing notion that our bodies belong to us alone—either as machines to be hacked and fueled, or as “plastic” to be reshaped, starved, pierced, and used for pleasure or vanity.

    And inside the church, it challenges the dualistic worldview that God cares only about “spiritual” matters. It was that dualism that led Gary Thomas to leave his bestselling Sacred series to pen Every Body Matters.

    …At the heart of these beliefs and practices—stewarding our God-made bodies and glorifying him in everything—is a growing understanding of the unity and integrity of the human self.

    It’s an essential stake in the wellness revival tent: that body, mind, and spirit are inextricable, and that true health and true spirituality will address all three.
    ——-


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    Daisy wrote:

    It seems to me a lot of preachers already have life pretty cushy and easy, but then they expect church members to treat them with even more tender, preferential treatment.

    Morning daisy! (Ha)

    I don’t think preachers should be preaching about how to serve the preacher! If someone not the preacher wants to do that, that might be ok if done right. But it seems rather self serving. And it has nothing to do with Jesus.

    Now, a sermon on how to serve others in the church (not just a ‘please volunteer for the nursery/pledge drive) could be nice. Concentrate on kindness in general, watching for people who might need attention, novel ways of helping, etc…


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    @ Ken F:
    I’m going to recommend Thomas Oden’s Systematic Theology where he doesn’t do the Grudem thing, but takes a wide range of original documents from the early church onwards that give what he would call the classical christian consensus on all the major issues. It’s so different & very enlightening, & profoundly non-determinist.
    He’s also Editor I think of a humungous set of tomes on the Early Church’s exegesis of the Bible, believing that these are the riches of the church, & should be better known, & that if they were far fewer issues would arise.

    All this stuff is so hard – I’ve been off sick & looking at all this has given me a bout of what I call ‘theolurgy’ – when my brain worries about ‘what if’ all the scary bad determinist stuff is true, just because someone somewhere believes it…appreciate people’s prayers for this to abate pretty please.


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    Get your wife on here commenting! That’s great you two are, like, literally, on the same page

    Write a book Ken & his wife! Save other young people from your son’s experience.


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    @ zooey111:

    “What ever happened to “Brother” [name here].”
    +++++++++++

    I prefer just “Tom”, “Dick”, or “Harry”, “Dawn”, “Jill”, or “Mary”.


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    @ Stunned:

    you’re funny!


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    Beakerj wrote:

    Write a book Ken & his wife! Save other young people from your son’s experience.

    Even if I had the time to write such a book, it would read like a trashy conspiracy novel. It’s unbelievable, which is probably why the connections are so pervasive.


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    Beakerj wrote:

    I’m going to recommend Thomas Oden’s Systematic Theolog

    Thanks for the recommendation. It looks good. I’ve been avoiding systematic theology lately because it was the wrong type of systematic theology that led me astray. But I might take a look at this one. I’m in the middle of reading a borrowed copy of Eusebius: The Church History. It’s a good read.


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    Ken F wrote:

    It’s unbelievable, which is probably why the connections are so pervasive.

    Why so? This sounds interesting.


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    Ken F wrote:

    it would read like a trashy conspiracy novel.

    You say that like it’s a bad thing. 😉


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    I pulled together some connections in a comment I posted to the most recent TWW post. When it clears I think you will see a bit of what I mean.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    And I would like to emphasize that there are more women than we suspect who are abusers of their husbands and children. Yes, even physical abuse. Very few men will admit it, however, and we need to be careful we do not forget them. Just so my comment is not misunderstood.

    Thanks for mentioning this, Gram3. I personally know a dear man who is enduring this and believes God requires him to.
    BL wrote:

    I love hearing my fellow worshipers as they sing. The huge organs and the amped up rock style – can’t hear anything but myself and the organ or the amped musicians.

    IMO, it stifles the sense of community in worship and replaces it with isolation.

    I agree. I’ve been told by “the powers that be” that music HAS to be loud or the men are not comfortable singing- they’d be too embarrassed if they could hear their own voices. So the argument is that the louder it is, the more participation they get. I’ve lived long enough to remember when it was just a piano, a song leader, and the peoples’ voices. I am not a good singer but I loved that. I remember when it came into style to use pre-recorded accompaniment and I felt like it was disingenuous but most liked the convenience of it. Music is a hugely dividing issue. My current solution is just to skip that part of the service when I can.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Galatians 6.10
    “Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.”

    There has been a trend in churches the last few years for preachers to insist their church (or The church in general) should exist ONLY to convert people.

    So, if a member (one of the sheep) asks the preacher for stronger, deeper sermons (as opposed to the usual seeker friendly watered down gruel that is used to appeal to the goats), the preachers throw fits and scream at the members like that to “self feed.”

    Hear! Hear!

    The church has become the evangelist. Once we become believers and join a church we find we are all just cogs in the machinery to produce more of us sitting in the pews so they can produce more… I came to feel like what is the point? To enlarge some guy’s kingdom so he can feel important in front of his colleagues…

    It is very common for those in leadership to care more about the unbeliever they’ve never met than the brothers and sisters in Christ who are dying on the vine around them.


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    Beakerj wrote:

    All this stuff is so hard – I’ve been off sick & looking at all this has given me a bout of what I call ‘theolurgy’ – when my brain worries about ‘what if’ all the scary bad determinist stuff is true, just because someone somewhere believes it…appreciate people’s prayers for this to abate pretty please.

    I experienced what you are experiencing when I first looked into the theory of divine determinism. Jerry Walls’ lecture at Evangel University “What’s Wrong With Calvinism?” was of great help in dealing with it. It is on Youtube. Roger Olson has some excellent material on the topic on his blog and the website of the Society of Evangelical Arminians is exceptionally helpful.


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    Beakerj wrote:

    appreciate people’s prayers for this to abate pretty please.

    I am praying for you with the “benefit” of having had the experience. It is a dreadful place to be.


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    @ Beakerj:

    Praying for quick abatement 🙂


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    Thanks John D. for posting those names (Jerry Walls and Roger Olson) and resources. I hadn’t heard of them either. I’ve posted these resources here at the top of the page here under the Interesting tab, Books/Movies/etc. for others to easily access.


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    Beakerj wrote:

    Why so? This sounds interesting.

    The comment I posted at 1130 this morning on the Jared Wilson post is now there. It has some of the connections I described.


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    @ JohnD:
    I have really enjoyed listening to Walls. A former 5pt Calvinist, Leighton Flowers, has some interesting podcasts and blog posts that compare and contrast doctrines.

    http://Www.soteriology101.com


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    Ken F wrote:

    This verse looks like it applies to elders because it’s right after the guidance on how many witnesses are required to to bring an accusation against an elder. Unless I am reading it wrong, it appears that public exposure is the right way to go for cases like this so that other elders will fear. Is this the right way of reading this?

    That’s how I understand it.

    I prefer some of the other translation variations (in the “keep on sinning” part).

    Here are the variations from Biblehub – and it is referencing elders specifically:

    New International Version
    But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning.

    New Living Translation
    Those who sin should be reprimanded in front of the whole church; this will serve as a strong warning to others.

    English Standard Version
    As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.

    Berean Study Bible
    But those who persist in sin should be rebuked in front of everyone, so that the others will stand in fear of sin.

    Berean Literal Bible
    But those sinning, rebuke before all, so that the rest might have fear as well.

    New American Standard Bible
    Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

    King James Bible
    Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    Publicly rebuke those who sin, so that the rest will also be afraid.

    International Standard Version
    As for those who keep on sinning, rebuke them in front of everyone so that the rest will also be afraid.

    NET Bible
    Those guilty of sin must be rebuked before all, as a warning to the rest.

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English
    Those who sin, rebuke before everyone, so that the rest of the people may fear.

    GOD’S WORD® Translation
    Reprimand those leaders who sin. Do it in front of everyone so that the other leaders will also be afraid.

    New American Standard 1977
    Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also may be fearful of sinning.

    Jubilee Bible 2000
    Those that persist in sin rebuke before all, that the others may also fear.

    King James 2000 Bible
    Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

    American King James Version
    Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

    American Standard Version
    Them that sin reprove in the sight of all, that the rest also may be in fear.

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    Them that sin reprove before all: that the rest also may have fear.

    Darby Bible Translation
    Those that sin convict before all, that the rest also may have fear.

    English Revised Version
    Them that sin reprove in the sight of all, that the rest also may be in fear.

    Webster’s Bible Translation
    Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

    Weymouth New Testament
    Those who persist in sin reprove in the presence of all, so that it may also be a warning to the rest.

    World English Bible
    Those who sin, reprove in the sight of all, that the rest also may be in fear.

    Young’s Literal Translation
    Those sinning, reprove before all, that the others also may have fear;


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    @ siteseer:

    “I’ve been told by “the powers that be” that music HAS to be loud or the men are not comfortable singing- they’d be too embarrassed if they could hear their own voices”
    +++++++++

    sigh…. why must everything in christian church culture revolve around men, and their apparently fussy, fragile, and delicate constitution?

    on the other hand, if they don’t want to sing, so what?? why must they sing? it’s not like God has a giant clipboard and checklist in the sky & is checking off whether or not x, y, & z have been done, and will be mad unless they’re done.

    why must they and everyone be constantly jammed into a mold of one kind or another? Gender molds, marriage molds, ‘worship’ molds, behavior molds, the right-way-to-be-a-member molds,….

    all this is the result of sin invention to make the jobs of professional Christians easier, more fulfilling, more fun, more profitable, & to keep some narcissistically supplied. and with that, I’ve made some enemies, i’m sure.


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    @ Muff Potter:

    “I no longer believe in the concept of an immortal soul. I am now convinced that the only thing that leaves the body upon expiration from this world is the Almighty’s gift of life-force which animates all living creatures.”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    this is interesting. what data or sense brought about this conclusion? do you think this life-force entails our personal awareness, personality, self?

    part of the data in my mental data processor includes experiences from people I know who have seen ‘apparitions’, i’ll call them — people who have passed on, appearing in filmy, transparent form, moving and behaving, seemingly existing in some way.

    I don’t know what to make of it all. I try to have an open mind. it’s curious, intriguing.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    this is interesting. what data or sense brought about this conclusion? do you think this life-force entails our personal awareness, personality, self?

    Like I said up-thread, I believe body and soul to be an integral unit, and so did the writer of Ecclesiastes. No sharp lines of demarcation, not separate entities as taught in Western theology. My mind, my feelings, my likes and my dislikes are all intricately woven into my physical body, when I cease, they cease.
    I also believe the prophet Daniel. I will be literally, supernaturally, and bodily resurrected from the dead at some point in future. Every last carbon atom and poly-peptide chain that was me, and I will be judged by my Maker.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    all this is the result of sin invention to make the jobs of professional Christians easier, more fulfilling, more fun, more profitable, & to keep some narcissistically supplied. and with that, I’ve made some enemies, i’m sure.

    Your enemies? Those who wanna’ spell out terms and saddle you with em? They can go pound salt. Those who truly love you have no “standard of perfection” they’ll reject you on for messing up on a point or two.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    @ siteseer:

    “I’ve been told by “the powers that be” that music HAS to be loud or the men are not comfortable singing- they’d be too embarrassed if they could hear their own voices”
    +++++++++

    sigh…. why must everything in christian church culture revolve around men, and their apparently fussy, fragile, and delicate constitution?

    I’ve been off topic all day so why stop now. As an electrical engineer I did sound systems for about twenty years and stopped doing so about 10 years ago because of issues with “worship leaders”. In that time I never came across the “men like it loud” argument so I wouldn’t run too far with the idea.

    I did find that each member of the “worship team” were often contending they wanted their own monitor louder. From my simple viewpoint I though if they were functioning as a team they would want to hear each other and not just themselves. It ended up loud because the “worship team” wanted it that way.

    I tried suggesting an experiment to measure participation versus loudness but pardon the pun, it fell on deaf ears.


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    ps –
    In those twenty years I never heard one complaint from someone in the pews the music was not loud enough.


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    @ Bill M:

    thanks for the reply. I don’t believe men like it necessarily loud, either. i’m just amazed at the lengths some churches go in treating men with kid gloves. doing everything possible to cater to them, not to upset them. Christian culture seems to think men are delicate fragile flowers — but of course that’s very wrong imagery, so the guns and war games and fighting references. it’s just totally weird & screwy. a field day for a psychologist and a sociologist. and I appreciate you not getting offended at my potentially offensive comment.

    but THAT is not what I really wanted to say. lifelong musician here, been on many a worship team, OD’ed on all the songs, hate ’em all (well, almost all of them) — eventually had to turn on the hard rock radio station to ’11’ all the way home just to recover.

    …but about monitors — if you can’t hear yourself (a bit more than each other, and with certain sound qualities that are hard to put into words), you can’t play or sing with any real understanding of what you’re doing. it’s like being a served a prime rib dinner but not being allowed to swallow any of it. the denial is unbearable.

    it’s like what I imagine being deaf to be like. you talk, but you don’t really know what you sound like or whether it sounds right, too soft or too loud, is it intelligible, am I pronouncing the words correctly — it’s all a guess.

    to a musician, music is all-important. it means everything. to not be able to hear what you’re doing, to not be able to connect to the music and become one with the music, feeling the vibrations and the rise and fall, being in perfect sync with the other musicians, letting the music come to life and begin to play itself — to be denied this is unbearable.

    but chances are you know these idiosyncrasies.


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    @ Muff Potter:

    “…enemies…”
    ++++++++

    I was thinking of someone like adam borsay, who seems to have a very good heart full of goodwill. he comes across as too good a person to become my enemy. but I can see how my comment could be antagonizing, incendiary, feel like an unfair assessment.

    but I would hope that pastors would consider to what degree they are managing people, manipulating people, controlling people (even subconsciously) for the sake of their paycheck, for the sake of their own experience as ‘pastor’, to ameliorate pressures to succeed they may feel. to what degree are church members their pawns, for the sake of a principle, for the sake of their career. even my most recent pastor, who had a heart of gold and integrity, I think subconsciously did these things to some degree. I felt used in a way.


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    @ Muff Potter:

    very interesting. I love to explore mysterious things. my dream is to see a UFO (& not a satellite masquerading as one).

    what do you make of stories of people who have died and been resuscitated or simply come back to life — the hovering above their body & people present, dark tunnel, bright light, & other things. it’s data of some kind.


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    @ Lydia:
    Leighton Flowers’ Soteriology101 is a treasure trove. Thank you for the link.


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    @ Bill M:
    Liked.


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    This same CJ Mahaney who gave hundreds of thousands of dollars to SBTS and the Al Moler gang wanted SGM to pay for his son’s ticket and expenses to go with him. Anyone working for any organization knows no matter how hard you work, you cannot ask or pay for your son’s trip to accompany you on your business trip. I remember this man not only askjng but responding in guilttripping way to those who asked some questions. He is concerned about peoples souls! Give me a break. Be first concerned about your own and let the people be concerned about their own soul. News flash, You job is not to control them CJ but to let them be influenced by your life and not just words. You need to show some remorse for the damage you presided over at SGM before you even have a voice to ask anything else. Stop being a pharasee! You and your ilk are a shame to Christiandom. Repent and be saved frim the evil that grips your heart!


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    elastigirl wrote:

    what do you make of stories of people who have died and been resuscitated or simply come back to life — the hovering above their body & people present, dark tunnel, bright light, & other things. it’s data of some kind

    Scripture (1 Samuel chap. 28) does record an instance of communication with the dead. It has been endlessly debated by theologian and lay person alike. Was it real or memorex? I cannot say for certain, certainty has a peculiar way of coming round’ and biting one in the backside. So I’ll go with what Shakespeare wrote:

    “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
    Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”


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    @ Muff Potter:

    nice thesis statement, there. I might adopt it myself.


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    okrapod wrote:

    Uncle Dad wrote:

    I don’t see this verse as referring to church leaders at all, since the institution of “church” hadn’t even been invented when the letter to the Hebrews was written.

    Can you explain what you mean a little bit more. Jesus did mention his intention to build his church. There does seem to be something that Paul set out to demolish and which was identifiable at Damascus when he staggered in. So, maybe you can say a little more about how you came to your conclusion?

    Thank you, Okrapod. I don’t want to get into a huge ecclesiological debate, because that’s not what this blog is for or about. But that nonsense about Constantine and Bablylonian mystery religion is not simply utter rubbish. It is also a cudgel used against Catholics (and, to a much lesser extent, Orthodox). America has a long and lurid history of rabid anti-Catholicism, and it’s still very much alive today.

    Yes, Jesus founded a church, and He never, ever said it would stay small and obscure or look exactly like the earliest Christian communities. In fact, He said just the opposite, in the parable of the mustard seed. The question is not whether the modern Church looks exactly like the primitive one. The question is whether it has the same DNA. The mustard bush does not exactly resemble the mustard seed, just as the human adult does not resemble the zygote. But they have the same DNA. John Henry Newman masterfully covered this subject in his *Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine.* And he was a genuine patristics scholar, with exhaustive knowledge of early Christian writings. Sure, one can disagree with his conclusions, but please do not do so on the basis of this Hyslopsian trash, which bears no relation to anything remotely resembling historical scholarship.

    And now I will get off of my soapbox. I’m sorry, but I am just so sick of the lies. Maria Monk, call your office!

    I apologize for the digression. Now back to Mahaney et al.


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    elisabetta wrote:

    My Catholic church is frequently criticized for having a Pope and requiring belief in his infallibility. However, even in our hierarchical church, we only have to accept the Pope’s teaching when he teaches Ex Cathedra – not any other time and yes, there are times when it is recommended to resist the Pope if he is teaching incorrectly and there have been saints who have done so (St. Catherine of Siena, for instance).

    Maybe CJ might want to take a page out of his (formerly) Catholic playbook. . .

    Amen!! These dudes are self-appointed super-popes who go far, far beyond what even the most power-hungry Borgia pope could have claimed. The popes are bound by 2,000 years of Christian Tradition; they cannot just make stuff up. And no, we do not believe they speak infallibly every time they say “boo.” Catherine of Siena is a great example. She was one tough cookie, and she read the pope the riot act. Yet she is not only a canonized saint. She is a Doctor of the Church!


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    Uncle Dad wrote:

    I don’t see this verse as referring to church leaders at all, since the institution of “church” hadn’t even been invented when the letter to the Hebrews was written.

    okrapod wrote:

    Can you explain what you mean a little bit more. Jesus did mention his intention to build his church. There does seem to be something that Paul set out to demolish and which was identifiable at Damascus when he staggered in.

    To build his –

    Assembly. Congregation. A called out people.

    Ekklesia is not kyriakos.

    A called out people who gather together in His name. A body. A living entity.

    kyriakos – Church.

    A building. Clergy. Institution of religion.

    Two very different ‘flavors’.

    Ekklesia is also in the following where it is accurately translated as “assembly”.

    “31 Even some of the officials of the province, friends of Paul, sent him a message begging him not to venture into the theater. 32 The assembly was in confusion: Some were shouting one thing, some another. Most of the people did not even know why they were there.”

    In regards to what Paul set out to demolish – just believers.

    No specific building, no specific leaders, just believers wherever he encountered them.

    “they continued to meet together in the temple courts.”

    “On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. Going from house to house, he (Saul) dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.”

    ” And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade. 13 No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people. 14 Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number.”

    “Then someone came and said, “Look! The men you put in jail are standing in the temple courts teaching the people.”

    “Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Messiah.”

    ” He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. ”

    “Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20 At once he began to preach in the synagoguesthat Jesus is the Son of God. ”

    Institutionalized churches as we know them did not come into being for several hundred years.


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    Lydia wrote:

    This is just another reason I cannot stand “vague” when it comes to these ministry types.

    Vague. Also the undefined and/or ill defined. Where terms and phrases might initially sound good, only to discover through a little examination, that there is no “there” there.

    That began happening as my eyes began to open after several years while in a shepherding/discipleship cult.

    Nod my head and think ‘good stuff’ during the teaching, only to find that the ‘sounds good’ stuff was so ephemeral upon examination, that trying to get a handle on what was actually said, was like the proverbial nailing of jello to a wall.


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    BL wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    This is just another reason I cannot stand “vague” when it comes to these ministry types.
    ++++++++++++++++
    Vague. Also the undefined and/or ill defined. Where terms and phrases might initially sound good, only to discover through a little examination, that there is no “there” there.

    There is also plausible deniability. When the strong implication of their statement is knocked down they will then claim “That is not what I meant”.


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    @ elastigirl:
    Also reflective of neurological and other physiological changes that people experience as they die. I’m not discounting it all, but E. Kubler-Ross was selling tons of books about this in the 70s and people bought it hook, line and sinker. I’m skeptical, though obviously not a strict materialist. But thete are SO many bogus stories out there. I think it calls for circumspection, at the very least.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Ronnie Floyd spoke at T$G. They end up joining the gravy train. Patterson is speaking at some upcoming Reformed gig.

    Yeah, they saw where all the energy was and went that direction. Sometime in the 2008 – 2009 time frame they made the switch. It was a done deal by the 2009 Annual Meeting. If you attended it you could clearly see that Floyd, Patterson, etc., were onboard with the changes. They might not have been happy but they were on board.


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    Bridget wrote:

    What I’m confused about is if CJs church is still also part of SGC? How is it both SBC and SGC?

    There’s no rule that says you can only be aligned with the Southern Baptists. Capitol Hill Baptist Church was dually aligned with both the SBC and ABC when Dever took over. That was common for churches in Washington, DC. “Leading his church out of liberalism” was an angle he worked to gain prominence. He led people to believe his was about the only reliably Southern Baptist church in DC, so someone in his congregation always got placed onto the various boards in the SBC as representing that state convention. Probably no other church in the entire convention had control of that many levers of power.


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    Abused bt SGM wrote:

    This same CJ Mahaney who gave hundreds of thousands of dollars to SBTS and the Al Moler gang wanted SGM to pay for his son’s ticket and expenses to go with him.

    How many times did we hear CJ say he didn’t care about money, that he wasn’t sure how much he made, as if money didn’t concern him, as though he were free from greed?

    This was yet another example of how Mahaney manipulated people’s minds. He’d go out ahead of the story and create the narrative he wanted you to accept and believe, before anyone thought to wonder or ask any questions. He’d create a lie for everyone to believe, and you’d be dammed if you didn’t believe it.

    The SGM Cover-Up begins with Mahaney himself. His trusty sidekick Gary Ricucci defended and covered for him with the energy of a child who keeps hidden the fact his Dad’s a drunk. The only authority these two men possess is of the type assumed by a crime syndicate, whose business depends upon defrauding people. It’s no wonder Mahaney doesn’t rest.

    SGM was built on the Moon, where there’s no natural resources. They need everyone to believe the light they have (“the Gospel”) produces growth, but in reality, the only life that’s there is what they extract from the people who believe the organization and its’ leaders are drawing life from The Source – which is, simply, not the case.

    The tone of Mahaney’s message, in which he recently warned his congregants at Sovereign Grace Baptist Church of Louisville, to defend and protect him, was that of an angry man. He, Ricucci, and the other parasites on staff, know they can’t fend for themselves; they don’t produce any real food. They’ve always depended upon those who serve them to bring in the crops when there’s no actual harvest on the Moon.


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    The tone of Mahaney’s message, in which he recently warned his congregants at Sovereign Grace Baptist Church of Louisville, to defend and protect him, was that of an angry man.

    Did you listen to the recording?


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    SGM was built on the Moon, where there’s no natural resources. They need everyone to believe the light they have (“the Gospel”) produces growth, but in reality, the only life that’s there is what they extract from the people who believe the organization

    Like Parasites latched onto a Host?


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    The SGM Cover-Up begins with Mahaney himself. His trusty sidekick Gary Ricucci defended and covered for him with the energy of a child who keeps hidden the fact his Dad’s a drunk.

    Or the energy of a Harley Quinn defending her Joker.


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    siteseer wrote:

    I agree. I’ve been told by “the powers that be” that music HAS to be loud or the men are not comfortable singing- they’d be too embarrassed if they could hear their own voices.

    “If this is Too Loud, you’re Too Old”?


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    siteseer wrote:

    The church has become the evangelist. Once we become believers and join a church we find we are all just cogs in the machinery to produce more of us sitting in the pews so they can produce more…

    What Campus Crusade called “Multiplying Ministry” and everyone on the outside called a Pyramid Scheme. “Sheep Saving More Sheep So They Can Save Still More Sheep…” With Lead Pastor/Evangelist starting at the top of the Pyramid list.


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    @ Bridget:
    Yes. I also attended CLC where I heard him give the same message many times under very different circumstances. This one was distinctively different. It was easy for me to detect the dishonestly that’s always underlied this message, especially when he talked about how much more of a privilege it is for him to speak to his home church than it is to speak before crowds of people. That’s simply not true, and it stood out this time. The threat contained in the message was also far more thinly veiled. What is behind that is a frustrated man, whose experience at T4G was no doubt vastly different from times past. Im sure he wasn’t treated with the deference and respect he expects and it wounded his ego. In an effort to restore a sense of power and control, he went overboard here, and lost composure in his voice. I could practically hear the growl in his voice as he lied his way through this, acting as though he’s the honorable man who deserves not only the honor he didn’t get at T4G, but especially from the church there that he leads which, incidentally, he’d be out of business for good without their support.

    I’m guessing since you were in SGM yourself for a very, very long time that none of my analysis should surprise you. I was in CLC and listened to the man preach for years, week after week. But I always find it interesting how so many people come out of SGM and hold to such varying interpretations of what they saw and heard, or what they continue to see and hear. I think a lot of it depends on why you attached yourself to the group to begin with, and why you left, and whether or not that was in good faith. There are very few people I’ve interacted with, who used to be in SGM, that I’ve discovered to be trustworthy.


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    There are very few people I’ve interacted with, who used to be in SGM, that I’ve discovered to be trustworthy.

    That is interesting.

    I can’t bring myself to listen to CJM drone on for an hour. Thankfully I was far enough removed from CLC that I didn’t often listen to him and I was not mesmerized with the man. I actually found him a bit creepy.


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    @ Bridget:
    I heard him speak enough times in person that I can detect things in his voice, in his presentation, especially when he’s presenting a message that I’d heard many other times, but under different circumstances. What I mean by that is that when I heard him preach, he was at the height of his career, enjoying widespread acclaim. In this, he confidently expected everyone to accept what he said without question or challenge, and you could hear that in his voice.

    No one in SGM needed to be to personally mesmerized by the man himself to fall under his spell. There was no escaping it no matter what SGM church you were involved in. People may deny this and they can try, but Mahaney made certain all the churches and it’s leaders marched in step with his orders. Any leader that did not was replaced or “defeated.” Mahaney established and maintained the doctrine and the agenda, and made his rounds to deliver messages such as these so that they were certain to become dogma. I cannot emphasize this enough. Anyone who knows the system understands this is how it functioned, which is why all who clearly separated themselves from it, knows without a doubt that Mahaney knew EVERYTHING there was to know about EACH AND EVERY case of child sexual abuse.


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    @ Paula Rice:

    “No one in SGM needed to be to personally mesmerized by the man himself to fall under his spell. There was no escaping it no matter what SGM church you were involved in. People may deny this and they can try, but Mahaney made certain all the churches and it’s leaders marched in step with his orders. ”
    ++++++++++++++++

    do you mean his “spell” was irresistible? or just that complete adherence was expected and people just went along with it?
    ———

    “Any leader that did not was replaced or “defeated.” Mahaney established and maintained the doctrine and the agenda, and made his rounds to deliver messages such as these so that they were certain to become dogma. I cannot emphasize this enough.”
    ++++++++++++++

    so, it was a matter of dogma being drilled into people so much and so often that people were worn down to the point of acquiescence?

    what other factors helped this along?

    were there positive factors? for example, were there happy feelings in being a part of a ‘happiest place on earth’ community that made people willing to follow without questioning?

    does cjm have some kind mind control ability, to persuade people?


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    In this, he confidently expected everyone to accept what he said without question or challenge, and you could hear that in his voice.

    But that, of course, has all changed. Since I left CLC as a confirmed dissident back in 2001, a lot has certainly changed. Back then the SGM propaganda was in full bloom, and Mahaney was praised all over the Internet. That changed in Nov of 2007 when SGUncensored launched (later SGM Survivors), where I started immediately participating under the pseudonym “claireon.” Then, four years after that in July of 2011 sgmwikileaks released the Detwiler Documents, and the tide continues to turn against The Apostle.

    Mahaney, at 62, is the oldest of the T4G Four of Dever(55), Duncan(55), and Mohler(56). It’s almost certain he’ll never address the allegations. He’s skilled at hiding, manipulating, and suppressing information, but after the stories of abuse and abusive leadership leaked out, the only lie he’s been able to invent in response has been to deny any of it is true, play the Chief Victim (think Job), and instruct the Barnacles on his Fellowship to “protect” him from slander.

    In other words, the athlete has zero game.


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    It’s almost certain he’ll never address the allegations.

    Before he retires (again), of course.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    do you mean his “spell” was irresistible? or just that complete adherence was expected and people just went along with it?

    It’s both, but it was the potion that he mixed that contained the poison, which is what so many people refer to as the “kool-aid”.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    “Any leader that did not was replaced or “DEGIFTED.”

    Sorry, typo.

    so, it was a matter of dogma being drilled into people so much and so often that people were worn down to the point of acquiescence?

    what other factors helped this along?

    I attended during the time Tomczak was blackmailed and CJ lied to everyone about Tomczak’s departure. Mahaney didn’t want anyone to know about the change in doctrine he had planned, and that Tomczak was not in agreement with.

    Another cover up.

    Afterwards, without introduction or explanation, Mahaney started to focus exclusively on one aspect of Jesus’ ministry, and that was the Cross. And yes, this was “drilled” in, if you will. He insisted this emphasis defined the whole ministry as being “Gospel-centered” and “Cross-Centered,” and Jesus started being referred to exclusively as “The Savior”.

    All of the music changed as well. The songs all became about the Cross.

    As far as everyone being “worn down” by this, I’d have to say no, that was not the case. Everyone that I knew went along with the change without question. Of course messages like the one included in Deb’s post were liberally sprinkled in, to warn against descent. Questioning the direction the “LEADERS” were taking the church in was not open to discussion. And people willingly went along. I, however, could not. I knew there was more to the Gospel than the Cross, and the true Cross contained the power to deliver us from sins power and dominion, not hold us under it as if we should all think if ourselves as “the worst sinners” who were all doing “better than we deserved.”

    What other factors helped this along?

    I think the factors were as many and varied as the reasons why people were attached to the group to begin with. Many of the original members were Catholics including Mahaney and Tomczak. Many had been charismatics. Many were attracted to the emphasis on marriage and family. Many liked that there were a lot of homeschoolers, and that CLC offered a private school. There was always something going on, and people felt good about going to church, especially one that was part of a “family” of churches. A lot of people enjoyed the music. But I’m not sure how important doctrine truly was to a lot of people. It seemed for the most part people were content to believe if the leadership said their doctrines were sound, and they were totally “gospel-centered” then that was good enough to go along with. I think a lot of people allowed their faith to be defined by the church, and the church appealed to a largely religious constituency. I think the religion CLC offered just seemed more “New Testamant” or spiritual because of the way it was packaged, and appealed to young people. There were never any ‘elders’ in the church, or theologians for that matter. So, I’d say those are some of the factors.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    were there positive factors?

    What is positive about being part of a cult? Can you name any? If you can, then that would be your answer.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    I had to look her up. I’ve never been into comic book characters, but I learned the character of the Joker had been confined to an insane asylum, and while he was there he met Harley Quinn (Harleen Frances Quinzel) who was working there as a volunteer, she fell in love with him, and helped him escape several times. During one of those escapes, the Joker got into a battle with Batman, and was returned. When Harley saw how injured he was it drove her insane, which led her to start wearing a Jester’s costume, thus becoming the Joker’s sidekick.

    So, yeah. I’d say that describes Mahaney and Ricucci pretty well: The Joker and his sidekick The Jester.


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    BL wrote:

    That’s how I understand it.

    Thanks. I don’t remember hearing much from the pulpit on this passage.


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    Ken F wrote:

    Thanks. I don’t remember hearing much from the pulpit on this passage.

    I’ve never heard it preached or taught.

    The “gotta be 2 or 3 witnesses to entertain an accusation against an elder” – heard that one a lot.

    Evidently, 3 different individuals over 3 different times don’t count. Or even 20 different individuals over several weeks or months.

    It appears that the behind-the-scenes rule is that these 2 – 3 witnesses have to all show up at the same time.

    But, that’s not going to happen because the pewishioners have been well inoculated against ever being able to produce 2 or 3 witnesses at a time, because of the deeply inculcated fear produced in them from the pulpital teachings about gossip & slander.

    In the shepherding/discipleship cult I was in during the 70s, (same emphasis on submission, obeying your leaders, honoring your leaders, patriarchy, trusting your leaders, complete undermining of personal discernment) I later discovered that more than a dozen men/couples had gone to the leader and his elders regarding the same issues.

    None of these men knew that the other men had gone to the leadership, because they were all very careful not to be guilty of gossip, or disobedience, or dishonoring the man of God, or causing a fellow pewishioner to stumble by discussing any of their concerns with anyone BUT a leader.

    And the leaders pretended with each that they were the ONLY one having an issue, or expressing concerns.

    So, more than a dozen witness over a period of just a few weeks – didn’t count.

    What I discovered is that the pewishioners play by the rules as they have been taught by these men from the pulpit.

    But the men who taught these rules from the pulpit, do not play according to their own rules.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    do you mean his “spell” was irresistible? or just that complete adherence was expected and people just went along with it?
    ++++++++++++++
    so, it was a matter of dogma being drilled into people so much and so often that people were worn down to the point of acquiescence?

    It’s group conformity. Usually brought about by the frog slow-cook method.

    If most of these groups STARTED where they end up, they would not be as successful.

    They start free, open, exciting, participatory, egalitarian, motivated, generous, loving – and they slowly end up rigid, exacting, closed, driven, parsimonious, hierarchical, isolating, punishing, invasive, us vs them.

    They appeal to the young in age or young in belief initially – the members in the shepherding/discipleship group I was in ranged in age from late teens to mid-thirties (not counting the underage children).


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    Bill M wrote:

    For example on this blog there is a lot of give and take, that does not happen in a typical church. If I were to speak up in a similar in a local church I would be quickly ruled of of my place.

    Bill M, I found this nowhere else but in SGM. If you find this in the church you currently attend, I encourage you to keep looking. No matter how long it takes, please, don’t settle for a church like the one you’ve described.

    Stunned


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    How many times did we hear CJ say he didn’t care about money, that he wasn’t sure how much he made, as if money didn’t concern him,

    People who live pay check to pay check or who are not VERY comfortable normally know how much they make.


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    @ Paula Rice:
    Btw, Paula, that moon analogy is a very good one.


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    BL wrote:

    But the men who taught these rules from the pulpit, do not play according to their own rules.

    Amen, BL. I was stunned (no pun intended) by the man who threw us out of our SGM/ Sovereign Grace Churches church. He was sitting there, right in front of my very eyes behaving in ways my own ears had heard him preached against. I was in my 30’s but still way too naive and I was cut to the core to see this. If you had told me, I wouldn’t have believed you. God had to have me witness it myself.


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    Stunned wrote:

    People who live pay check to pay check or who are not VERY comfortable normally know how much they make.

    They have to know how much they make. Wealthy people, on the other hand, don’t worry about making it to the next paycheck.


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    Stunned wrote:

    People who live pay check to pay check or who are not VERY comfortable normally know how much they make.

    No one ever knew how much Mahaney actually made, and it’s true he claimed not to care, as if to suggest he was above that, so focused was he night and day on serving the Lord that money didn’t matter.

    But we know how meaningful money is to the Mahaney’s. All of their relationships have either stood or fallen on the basis of it.

    Both he and his wife practiced a particular deception in what they taught the men to do at CLC. They said that the men, and not the women, should manage the family finances. Yet, the whole time it was Carolyn Mahaney who privately managed their household finances.

    These people don’t serve in good faith, they serve for the purpose of financial gain. Their admonition to “Obey, for we must give an account” really means, “Give, so we can open accounts.”


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    No one ever knew how much Mahaney actually made, and it’s true he claimed not to care, as if to suggest he was above that, so focused was he night and day on serving the Lord that money didn’t matter.

    Over the years I’ve heard the claim “I’m not about the money” from at least three people who I later found to be much more interested in money than the average person. I’m inclined to view boasting of a virtue to be cause for suspicion, similar to someone making fanfare of their humility.


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    Bill M wrote:

    I’m inclined to view boasting of a virtue to be cause for suspicion

    Yup.

    Thanks for saying that. Makes me wonder what it is that I comment on often and how it shows what I am self deluded about, too.


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    BL wrote:

    They appeal to the young in age or young in belief initially –

    So do all Mass Movements.

    The end run into Instant Importance, an immediate Eldership within the Movement That Will Change the World.


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    @ Bridget:
    @ JohnD:
    Thanks so much, this is something that surfaces when I get really really low, I have had an ongoing anxiety disorder so when I first came across this it hit a totally over-reactive nervous system & so made a much bigger impact than it really ought. I’m just starting to see some light. I’m hoping to get much nearer to a satisfactory resolution this time round though, as I never knew before that all that Calvinist stuff was not the teaching of the church until Augustine (& they didn’t agree with his teachings on this), so all those verses they spout on about originally had a very different interpretation in the church, & that they held fast to the notion that God both loves & genuinely wishes to save all individuals, & works to draw all.
    I have read some of Olson’s stuff & commented on his site, & have found him very very helpful. I’ve also recently read Udo Middleman’s The Innocence of God, which has been enlightening too.


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    @ Beakerj:
    And Calvin was a relatively late arrival, as was Luther.

    While i do not agree with many things the Eastern Orthodox teach, their ideas about the innate goodness of God, combined with largely bypassing Augustine’s less wonderful ideas, make a lot of sense to me. They don’t believe in “original sin” per se. I can no longer accept thst interpretation as valid, apart from its historic reality within the Western church.

    Also, i sincerely doubt that Augustine ever anticipated the way in which some of his *views* (which were just that) would be so fervently promoted by some, to the detriment of other views. I love the Jewish idea of “midrash,” where many voices contribute differing views with no single voice being dominant, as opposed to the “believe This – or else” line of thought thst serms to prevail in many churches.

    Another thing: the texts of the Apostles and Nicene Creeds don’t even mention original sin, let alone predestination. These are the 2 main ecumenical creeds. I think the omissions and gaps allow for a lot more freedom of interpretation than is common in many Protestant churches.


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    @ Beakerj:
    Also,just to clarify: Augustine does not equal Calvin and Calvinism. For one thing, you’re talking many, many centuries in between.

    I wonder if you might like John Wesley and co.? Of course, he was C of E. 😉 but certainly, the God he believed in is gracious, good, and compassionate. Food for thought, eh?