Complementarian Baptist Seminary President Paige Patterson, Who Made an Abused Woman Return Home, Hosts Men Only Banquet With Gun Giveaway

The fascination of shooting as a sport depends almost wholly on whether you are at the right or wrong end of the gun. -P. G. Wodehouse link

http://leaderscollective.com/category/team
link

Before I begin, I do not want anyone to think we are speaking out against responsible gun ownership. The Deebs both have concealed weapons permits. Somehow, John Piper's promise to protect women from muggers did not make us feel particularly safe and we took matters into our own hands. 

*****

With that taken care of, let's review the last post which raised the question: Do the Complementarian Mandates of Submission and Male Leadership Attract Domestic Abusers? TWW believes that just like naive and trusting youth ministries attract pedophiles, the complementarian belief in male only headship and authority along with expectations of female submission will attract men who are prone to domestic violence.

We also stated that not all complementarians are abusers. However, we believe that poor exegesis on the part of preachers along with a male-centric theological emphasis leads men in the church to overlook the probability that they are inadvertently, and as you shall see, actively contributing to the problem of the abuse of women in the church. We believe that much of the blame lies squarely in the laps of seminaries and big dog, celebrity preachers.

Today, I had an hour to get a pedicure which was long overdue. The young man who took care of me announced that he was a Christian and that he could cause my arthritis (which is quite evident in my feet) to go away simply by commanding it. He then commanded the arthritis to leave me and told me it would be gone by tomorrow. I am NOT making this up. After a discussion about my beliefs on healing which ended in him telling me to send him a picture of my new feet tomorrow, I decided that it was my turn to ask him a question.

"What does your church do if a man abuses a woman?" This young man smiled and said "It is usually the woman's fault because she gets the man angry." He then went on to say that they teach the woman how to treat the man better. Can you imagine? Perhaps you are thinking that this poor man is ill educated and that most educated men know better. Well, here is my attempt to refute that notion.

Paige Patterson, President of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary believes women should go home to their abusive husbands. This was said at a conference endorse for The Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.

It is important to understand that many men in the church, particularly those who believe in male only leadership, don't get abuse. This includes the so called leaders who teach the next generation of naive leaders. We wrote this post A Call for Paige Patterson’s Resignation From the Ministry in 2009. 

This talk was given to The Council of Biblical™ Manhood and Womanhood which appears to endorse this sort of thinking while at the same time announcing that complementarians are really good at being *against* abuse.

Let’s start with Patterson’s view on domestic violence.  Guess what?  We have his own words on this subject, and he's very proud of himself.  This transcript is also available in audio via the internet.  It requires a bit of a search because someone, who realized Patterson’s words are damning, attempted to expunge the record.  They were uttered before the internet became an important factor in everyday life, so we're certain Patterson never realized his address an a conference sponsored by the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood(CBMW) would become available to the general public.  In fact, when we came across his view on domestic violence, we didn't know anything about CBMW.  That's what alerted us to this organization.   

Patterson: I am happy about your black eyes.

Here are Patterson's exact words. Deb spent hours obtaining the audio and transcribing it carefully. It is shocking. 

“The Southern Baptist Outpost has an article with an excerpt from audio recordings and transcripts from a conference in 2000, in which Paige Patterson explains the counsel he gave one battered woman. Here’s the quote the Outpost posted:

“I had a woman who was in a church that I served, and she was being subject to some abuse, and I told her, I said, “All right, what I want you to do is, every evening I want you to get down by your bed just as he goes to sleep, get down by the bed, and when you think he’s just about asleep, you just pray and ask God to intervene, not out loud, quietly,” but I said, “You just pray there.”  And I said, “Get ready because he may get a little more violent, you know, when he discovers this.”  And sure enough, he did.  She came to church one morning with both eyes black.  And she was angry at me and at God and the world, for that matter.  And she said, “I hope you’re happy.”  And I said, “Yes ma’am, I am.”  And I said, “I’m sorry about that, but I’m very happy."
 
"And what she didn’t know when we sat down in church that morning was that her husband had come in and was standing at the back, first time he ever came.  And when I gave the invitation that morning, he was the first one down to the front.  And his heart was broken, he said, “My wife’s praying for me, and I can’t believe what I did to her.”  And he said, “Do you think God can forgive somebody like me?”  And he’s a great husband today.  And it all came about because she sought God on a regular basis.  And remember, when nobody else can help, God can.
 
And in the meantime, you have to do what you can at home to be submissive in every way that you can and to elevate him.  Obviously, if he’s doing that kind of thing he’s got some very deep spiritual problems in his life and you have to pray that God brings into the intersection of his life those people and those events that need to come into his life to arrest him and bring him to his knees.”

Patterson believes you must have 2-3 witnesses to accuse a pastor of sex crimes.

In another instance, in which Patterson was accused of covering up the sexual misconduct by his protégé, Darrell Gilyard,. He attempted to obfuscate a number of accusations made by a number of women  against Gilyard by saying that each complaint needed to be backed up by 2-3 witnesses!. Gilyard would eventually go to jail for his conduct.

Let me say this quite strongly. I believe that Patterson knows that most sexual and abusive crimes occur behind closed doors. I think that Patterson could be perceived as not being particularly concerned about abuse victims and quite concerned about his *boys.*

“First Baptist officials said they knew of the allegations of sexual misconduct, which began as long as four years ago when Mr. Gilyard was removed as assistant pastor of Concord Missionary Baptist Church in Oak Cliff. But they said they did not believe those allegations, and continued to recommend him. "We were dealing with a man of special gifts and talents,' Dr. Patterson said. "I was unwilling to call anyone guilty until I had demonstratable evidence that these allegations were true.' Dr. Patterson said that according to Scriptures, action cannot be taken against a minister accused of adultery unless there are two or more witnesses. He also asked for any other proof, such as photographs, videotapes or laboratory tests!”

Paige Patterson will host a men only banquet in which guns will be given away on February 20, 2016

Consider Patterson's views on abuse. Now, let's take a look at this upcoming  Men's Game Banquet at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary of which he is the reigning president.

Many of you may not know that Paige Patterson fancies himself as the quintessential brave, masculine big game hunter. Yes, he does sound a bit like his pal, the now disgraced Doug Phillips who saw himself as a modern day Indiana Jones. Patterson just loves to go on safari with big guns and shoot the living daylights out of big animals. Holding his gun, he portrays himself as a brave and tough man's man. 

Men and boys only club

Although this is on the campus of SWBTS which has women students, this gathering is not for women. Why?

Join us for the Men's Game Banquet on February 20, 2016  at 4:00pm on the campus of Southwestern Seminary.  Hear a special message from SWBTS President Dr. Paige Patterson, and Tecomate President David Morris.

Door prizes will be presented.  This event is for Men and Boys only,

Now, lets let Big Game Hunter Paige Patterson tell us all about his banquet. 

The prizes: Lots and lots of guns, including one signed by Ted Cruz! 

Prizes

Thanks to our generous sponsors, we will be giving away more than $20,000 in door prizes at this event. Prizes include:

  • Hunts: An African Safari for 2, including daily and trophies fees; Texas whitetail hunts; and Texas Rio Grande turkey hunts.           
  • Rifles and shotguns from Winchester, Savage, Benelli, Henry, Remington, and Marlin.
  • Fishing gear from Zebco, Ugly Stick, and Shimino.
  • A Beretta Silver Pigeon shotgun signed by Texas Senator Ted Cruz.
  • Dinner Gift Cards from Lonesome Dove, Babe’s Chicken Dinner House, Hoffbrau, and H3 Ranch.
  • Industry gift certificates from Cabela’s, DFW Shooting Sports, Cowtown Bowman,  Kripple Creek Kennel, and Pure Adventure Outdoors.
  • Clothing and gear from Underarmor, Redhead, Caldwell, and Columbia. 
  • Red Rider BB guns.
  • Mathews Bows.
  • YETI coolers.
  • Art from Wildlife artist Kristin Vaughn.
  • Knives from Case, Havalon and Schrade.
  • SWAG packages from Harley, YETI, Winchester, Ruger, and Mathews.

So, we are left with a man who believes that a woman should go home to be beat up by her spouse. He also believe that one needs 2-3 witnesses to prove that he/she has been raped or molested by *a man of God.* His utterances give aid and comfort to those men who are abusive to their spouses. Years later, he is holding a "Men Only" banquet since it appears that only men should be interested in shooting and killing large animals. He is willing to give lots of guns away to the men who attend his banquet. 

I believe that women are not safe because of men like Paige Patterson. Yet Patterson has the endorsement  of The Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood which is closely tied to The Gospel Coalition. When these men shout that complementarians protect women, their utterances ring hollow. Keep doling out the guns, boys, along with the rhetoric of submission and male only leadership while women continue to be abused in evangelical churches. Somehow I do not believe that Jesus would spend time posing with his guns and stuffed big game conquests.

Let's see. We have women submit to male leadership and authority. Let's throw in guns and violence to the mix and see what happens. 

If you have a moment, go over to the Game Banquet link and scroll down to watch the *Lion Promo* and tell me what you think.

PS: I will let you know how my arthritic feet look tomorrow after they are healed.

Comments

Complementarian Baptist Seminary President Paige Patterson, Who Made an Abused Woman Return Home, Hosts Men Only Banquet With Gun Giveaway — 485 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Divorce Minister:
    You are quicker than the lion Paige Patterson shot!


  2. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Reading about Patterson and his positions made me sick. It is hard to believe people can support someone in the pulpit/seminary with such willfully destructive views. Disgusting and disgraceful if you ask me!


  3. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:

    Thanks! Cat like reflects 😉 [Even if my wife won’t let me get one…allergic]


  4. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    IMO Paige Patterson is one of the main contributors to the major decline of the Southern Baptist Convention. Sadly many view this man as some sort of Celebrity. He and a few others through the 2000 BF&M totally changed the role of women.


  5. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Paige Patterson: “”And what she didn’t know when we sat down in church that morning was that her husband had come in and was standing at the back, first time he ever came. And when I gave the invitation that morning, he was the first one down to the front. And his heart was broken, he said, ‘My wife’s praying for me, and I can’t believe what I did to her.’ And he said, ‘Do you think God can forgive somebody like me?. And he’s a great husband today.”

    I have never, ever believed that this actually happened. I don’t really believe the black eyes part. And I sure as heck don’t believe what Paige claims concerning the husband repenting and being a great husband today.

    I fully believe that he made the whole thing up to prop up his aberrant, gender theology.

    But I have no doubt that Paige has sent woman after woman after woman back into abusive homes and relationships. No problem believing that at all.


  6. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    My first thought was “Unbelievable!” Unfortunately, it’s all too believable. And sad. And discouraging.


  7. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    And another thing-

    I am sick to death with the notion that a properly submitted wife can save an abusive husband. It places an awful heavy and impossible burden on a woman to be the savior of her husband. And completely unnecessary since it was Jesus who died for His sins.
    For all their talk about women being the weaker vessel, they sure don’t believe it.


  8. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    That ‘lion promo’. Wow.


  9. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    It’s one thing for the good old boys to continue spouting their misogynistic nonsense, they fear losing power. What truly horrified me were the words spoken by the young man who gave you a pedicure. It’s 2016, for heaven’s sake! Are we really losing ground? So discouraged.


  10. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    No gurlz allowed. So what? Why would I want to go there? I’ve already shot more rattlesnakes and copperheads than my husband has ever seen (hey, Dee — I can send you a couple of photos!). I actually shot the only cotton mouth my husband has ever seen ….. while he watched. Then there’s the coons, possums ………

    The door prizes are no big deal. I already have several firearms, including a Winchester and a Marlin (never had a BB gun – never had any use for one). I also 4 dogs that keep watch out for me if anyone or anything ever appears to be a threat to me or mine. Heck, if them boys attending that so called banquet ain’t man enough to keep up with a woman like me already, I ain’t got much use fer ’em, anyhow.
    I wonder if men are doing all of the cooking and all of the cleaning up afterward?

    I honestly think ole Paige worries about having his manhood upstaged by a country girl like me, or my daughter (she has several firearms and 2 coon hounds), so he has to trot his manliness out in front of the world every now and then, just to reassure himself. Can PP and his buddies hunt and shoot without a paid guide to help him along?
    I do believe that if there was a Paige Patterson Men’s Game Banquet sign in my area, I would give in to the temptation to use it for target practice!
    I wonder if I can reload empty 12 ga. shells with lipstick and birdshot?


  11. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Watched the banquet video.
    And then I learned that men need really big bullets.


  12. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Mara wrote:

    Watched the banquet video.
    And then I learned that men need really big bullets.

    Yet they offer a BB gun as a door prize???


  13. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I have 2 comments in moderation. I guess I should learn to use phrases like “BB thingies” and “fire-whatchamacallemz”.


  14. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Patterson has also had stained glass windows with his own likeness installed at the seminary. While he is still living and still president of the seminary. Wish I were kidding.


  15. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “Lion Promo” ?????

    I didn’t see a lion which I am very glad about. I thought I was going to see this old koot shoot a lion. Glad it didn’t happen, but it was a cape buffalo promo not a lion promo.

    I’m so sick of the heeman comp attitude.


  16. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Is the post where we can talk about John Piper trolling Christian Republicans only months removed from him tickling ears by echoing their views on abortion and gay marriage?

    I eagerly await David Platt to point out that if you can afford trips to Africa to hunt big game, you’re not being “radical”.


  17. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Bridget wrote:

    I didn’t see a lion which I am very glad about. I thought I was going to see this old koot shoot a lion. Glad it didn’t happen, but it was a cape buffalo promo not a lion promo.

    You must have warptched the wrong promo. There is a lion in the promo – a stuffed and mounted FEMALE lion. Yeah, it takes a real h- man to get up close and personal with a stuffed, mounted female lion!


  18. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy2 wrote:

    You must have warptched the wrong promo. There is a lion in the promo – a stuffed and mounted FEMALE lion. Yeah, it takes a real h- man to get up close and personal with a stuffed, mounted female lion!

    I’d love to see a perfectly camouflaged hunter from deep space, stalk Patterson and make a trophy of him.


  19. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Muff Potter wrote:

    I’d love to see a perfectly camouflaged hunter from deep space, stalk Patterson and make a trophy of him.

    Why a deer hunter from deep space? Muff, I still have connections with Special Forces 5th Group, 3rd Battalion at Ft. Campbell! But, they don’t take trophies.


  20. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy2:

    Ever see the Predator sci-fi flicks?
    That’s what I had in mind.


  21. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Muff Potter wrote:

    Ever see the Predator sci-fi flicks?
    That’s what I had in mind.

    I’ve seen the original.
    The stalker wouldn’t have to use a weapon. The heart attack would save ammo.


  22. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Really quickly…I wrote a post about Mark Driscoll’s church plant starting this month in Phoenix. Its called The Trinity Church.

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/02/04/a-wolf-rises-in-phoenix-mark-driscoll-and-the-trinity-church/

    Since this church plant is in Mierel’s backyard of Phoenix. I am going to propose that The Wondering Eagle and Wartburg Watch provide ice cold bottled water that she can picket and protest! 🙂


  23. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Hey, is MD signing up for the Patterson boy banquet?


  24. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy2 wrote:

    You must have warptched the wrong promo. There is a lion in the promo – a stuffed and mounted FEMALE lion. Yeah, it takes a real h- man to get up close and personal with a stuffed, mounted female lion!

    *snicker, snicker* Yeah, I wondered if the female lion was already stuffed and mounted when he shot her. Very manly. I’d love to see him tell Ms. Lionness to submit.

    The other thing I thought when I watched the lion clip was, “Overcompensating much?”


  25. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    In regards to pedicure guy, did you say anything to him about his un-Christian viewpoint?


  26. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    patriciamc wrote:

    In regards to pedicure guy, did you say anything to him about his un-Christian viewpoint?

    Like in, “Do you really believe a man of God should be working at a mani-pedi joint? Isn’t that a bit feminine?”
    Paige Patterson? Yeah, take away his boom-boom and see if he can handle a lioness with just a whip and a chair!


  27. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “Patterson believes you must have 2-3 witnesses to accuse a pastor of sex crimes.”
    So was that Patterson that got put on permanent moderation earlier today? The comment over on the “To the Naghmeh Abedini Doubters” post at 12:19 AM last night was a near perfect implementation of Patterson’s twist on scripture.

    So far we have one accuser.

    1 Timothy 5:19
    “Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.”


  28. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    The original post:

    “What does your church do if a man abuses a woman?” This young man smiled and said “It is usually the woman’s fault because she gets the man angry.”

    He then went on to say that they teach the woman how to treat the man better. Can you imagine?
    Perhaps you are thinking that this poor man is ill educated and that most educated men know better. Well, here is my attempt to refute that notion.

    There is probably a good F.A.Q. somewhere online about domestic violence you could point this kid to, or maybe send him a copy of “Why Does He Do That” book by Lundy Bancroft.

    One of the things you learn about abuse (physical or verbal) is that it is never, ever the target’s fault or responsibility.

    The abuser is entirely to blame and is entirely responsible for his/her abusive behavior, regardless of what the target is doing or not doing.

    I kind of grasped that in regards to physical abuse quite some time ago, but it wasn’t until after I read a book and articles on verbal abuse I realized it applies to verbal abuse as well.

    I used to think if only I could walk on egg shells around my sister, and not trigger her temper, she’d remain civil to me, but that’s not the case.

    No matter how nice and pleasant I was to my sister, she’d sometimes go into a rage and chew me out pretty fierce anyhow.

    Abusers act out with hostility due to wanting to control others, refusal to deal with their own issues, and/or entitlement. Their abusive behavior has nothing to do with what the target is doing or not doing.

    Abusers choose to act with malice, hostility, or violence. They choose to act in that manner; it has nothing to do with how or what the victim is doing.

    By the way, even if a woman were to make a man angry, that is still zero excuse for the man to physically or verbally abuse her.

    Other than self-defense (say, you’re a married guy and your wife is chasing you with an ax with an intent to chop off an arm), I can’t think of any scenario where it’s okay for a guy to use force against his wife.


  29. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    On top of everything else, an African safari as a giveaway. When large animal populations in Africa are endangered, due to poaching and illegal “hunting.”

    Far better for him to donate large sums of $$$$ to the care of abused women and children, as well as wildlife conservation. (I am not anti-hunting per se, but i think his kind of hunting should be banned; large animals can be “shot” with cameras, not bullets.)


  30. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ numo:
    Oh and – giving away guns????!!!!


  31. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    numo wrote:

    Far better for him to donate large sums of $$$$ to the care of abused women and children, as well as wildlife conservation. (I am not anti-hunting per se, but i think his kind of hunting should be banned; large animals can be “shot” with cameras, not bullets.)

    I will not hesitate to shoot a poisonous snake or a varmint, and we have deer meat in the freezer, but I agree with you 100% there. Unless I had to take down a lion, elephant, etc. to save my or someone else’s life, I would only shoot with my camera. But, Paige probably thinks real men don’t tote cameras around, they just pose in front of them in camo. BTW, does he know that “Paige” is a unisex name?


  32. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Our church has a hunting event, but they have to have it open to men and women. Everyone goes out in the woods in Central Wisconsin (except me!). We have our sexism hold-outs but lots of our girls can shoot and field dress a deer with the best of them.

    Sadly, we also have lots of domestic abuse around here. I saw a lot when I was working as a family doctor, but you can’t get help for a woman unless she agrees to it. And it’s even tougher when the church isn’t supportive of the woman.


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    The prizes: Lots and lots of guns, including one signed by Ted Cruz!

    “FOR ZARDOZ YOUR GOD GAVE YOU THE GIFT OF THE GUN!
    THE GUN IS GOOD!”


  34. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    The prizes: Lots and lots of guns, including one signed by Ted Cruz!

    Penis Extension signed by God’s Anointed Next President Himself?


  35. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Bookbolter wrote:

    Patterson has also had stained glass windows with his own likeness installed at the seminary. While he is still living and still president of the seminary. Wish I were kidding.

    Comrade Stalin, Baba Saddam, Comrade Kim Jong-Il, and Jack Hyles would be proud of him.

    “The voice of a God, not of a Man!
    The voice of a God, not of a Man!”
    Acts 12:22


  36. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I’m all for conceal and carry. I get that meat is a necessity of life, however hunting big game I don’t get it! Men who participate in big game hunting I have serious reservations about. Now, onto sending women back to abusers is this man out of his mind? This is setting women back by 40 + years in domestic violence and sexual abuse! I’m so tired of these men using the word if God to justify physical abuse of any kind. I seriously pray that women from all over see this and start picketing the churches where pastors give abusers a pass to continue to abuse women. Seriously more Christians need to make it a priority to expose this teaching because what I see is Satan gaining a foothold within the church. We need to stop being passive to abuse and start being proactive as a body of believers.


  37. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Dee – did you have your dog with you when having the pedicure? If so, I think there may have been a misunderstanding when your little charismatic friend gave the command “Heel”! …


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    On a more serious note, isn’t the three witnesses requirement for charges against elders/vicars/ministers a protection against genuine misunderstandings or untrue rumour-mongering or accusations by church members who may have had a home truth or two told to them that they didn’t want to hear?

    Domestic abuse is a crime, and therefore the authorities in the form of the police have to deal with this, and the standards of evidence that apply in solving crimes comes into play.


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    This is disgusting. Are they having manly tiger Tatar on the menu for all takers? And all to prove they aren’t “girly men.”


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    Tiger tartare — to each their own.


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    No “real” men would ever need to prove their, manliness, by big game, safari hunting. In fact, it proves to me what wimps they are.

    It’s aggravating to see these buffoons, mix up godliness, gender and guns. Thank God I live in New England,liberal as it is. Can’t stand the big, Baptist Texas view of gender, God, politics. Ugh.


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    Bookbolter wrote:

    Patterson has also had stained glass windows with his own likeness installed at the seminary. While he is still living and still president of the seminary. Wish I were kidding.

    I could not believe my eyes when I saw they were commissioning stained glass windows with the likenesses of CR leaders. This is idolatry on steroids. But then as recent as the 1990’s, SBTS named a college after a pro chattel slavery SBC Founder.


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    Stan wrote:

    Is the post where we can talk about John Piper trolling Christian Republicans only months removed from him tickling ears by echoing their views on abortion and gay marriage?
    I eagerly await David Platt to point out that if you can afford trips to Africa to hunt big game, you’re not being “radical”.

    Hee. Hee. Platt gave up Radical for a six figure gig with a plush office. Radical is for the over 50 missionaries he gave a godfather retirement deal.


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    @ mot:

    From what I can tell, he spent most of his career one step ahead of the firing ax. What always saved him was that he knows where the CR bodies are buried.

    There used to be a blogger who worked for him and showed how eccentric and corrupt he is with his commissioned portraits with his dog, big game stuffing and mounting and even an expensive tombstone for his dog —-all charged to the seminary. (Back then, SEBTS)


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    @ marquis:

    Good comment. You know, these guys make claims to being theologians but telling a woman she is responsible and must endure pain and suffering for the abusers salvation in that way negates the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is the opposite of what they claim to believe and ends up mocking Jesus Christ.


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    Kemi wrote:

    It’s 2016, for heaven’s sake! Are we really losing ground? So discouraged.

    Yes. I am going to write something about this but without referencing anybody else’s comment, but yes we are and thank you for bring this up.


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    Ken wrote:

    On a more serious note, isn’t the three witnesses requirement for charges against elders/vicars/ministers a protection against genuine misunderstandings or untrue rumour-mongering or accusations by church members who may have had a home truth or two told to them that they didn’t want to hear?

    Yes. Paul was talking to Timothy who apparently had some authoritative position and to whom allegations within the church regarding some presbyter might be referred, and Paul was telling Timothy to not leap in and get involved without applying the OT instructions relative to the necessity of witnesses.

    Paul was not addressing the issue of alleged crimes that some presbyter might be doing on his own time. That is to say that he was not saying let somebody get away with disobeying the law just because within the church he serves as a presbyter. Had he been saying that he would have been contradicting other scriptural admonitions regarding the christian duty to the governing authorities. Paul was not a nut case. He was not saying that.

    Which is to say that I think I agree with you if I understand what you are saying.


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    @ Catherine:

    Hi, Catherine. Thanks for the link to your blog. I am also a former physician, but I retired due to sheer old age and hyper burn out. I too miss the actual day to day practice of medicine, and not a day goes by that my heart does not hurt over it’s absence from my life.

    And also my family has someone who suffers from a type of migraine with persistent visual aura but only intermittent actual pain. It is such a difficult thing to live with.

    Hang around. This may be a place you would like to comment and add your insights. The Deebs are super great people with fantastic insight into some things going on in christianity today.


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    Lydia wrote:

    You know, these guys make claims to being theologians but telling a woman she is responsible and must endure pain and suffering for the abusers salvation in that way negates the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is the opposite of what they claim to believe and ends up mocking Jesus Christ.

    BINGO! Make another person responsible for either your sin or your salvation is heresy. And yet so many of these neo-cal and sbc “churches” do both to women. I think deep down this stems from a desire to not be responsible for themselves, which is ironically opposite from the super macho image they try to project. The dudes doth protest too much.


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    I am ashamed to be an alumni of SWBTS…..


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    okrapod wrote:

    Kemi wrote:
    It’s 2016, for heaven’s sake! Are we really losing ground? So discouraged.

    Yes. I am going to write something about this but without referencing anybody else’s comment, but yes we are and thank you for bring this up.

    Looking forward to it!


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ mot:
    From what I can tell, he spent most of his career one step ahead of the firing ax. What always saved him was that he knows where the CR bodies are buried.
    There used to be a blogger who worked for him and showed how eccentric and corrupt he is with his commissioned portraits with his dog, big game stuffing and mounting and even an expensive tombstone for his dog —-all charged to the seminary. (Back then, SEBTS)

    He helped pay for his new ” residence” by raising insurance rates on retired SWBTS professors. Already guys not making a ton of money in retirement…


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    Somebody has asked if we are losing the battle. Yes. Yes we are. What the churches are experiencing is part of the greater battle that we are losing in this country. Segments of our nation are losing a cultural battle to the red neck ideologies. There are reasons for this. But I am convinced that if we see it only as an evangelical church battle then we will have failed to see the bigger picture and failed to deal with some of the causes which go beyond just the church to the society at large.

    This is not a place to discuss politics, and indeed though economics and politics play into the picture and also race and gender there is a significantly more extensive problem. I think we are engaged in a clash of classes, a clash of strata in society, and the middle class of whatever race or gender or political bent are seeing their stratum with its values lose out as a predominant philosophy in this country.

    This is not basically about guns, and Nancy2 is not red neck. This is not primarily about doctrine and Ken is not red neck. But there is such a thing as red neck and we see it in the south in various manifestations and TX seems to have its variety and it is infiltrating those of the residual middle class who have not morphed into the upper stratum as some have done. And it is spreading like a cancer. These bozos in the pulpit are playing to that, and it breaks my heart and scares me to the bone.


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    This is coming from a guy who had ” deer chili” last night, and who hunts here in Texas.
    Wild game meals at churches are a pretty regular event in Texas. However, it generally involves deer, ducks, and maybe a squirrel court-bouillon. ( don’t knock it until you try it, in East Texas, many of us grew up eating squirrel….and a real treat is a squirrel liver sandwich, with mustard…..okay, I’ve grossed out many readers.)
    As a Texan, everyone in the rural part of the state hunts, including the writer of this comment. Call it tradition, call it a way to fill up the freezer, I am not going to knock hunting or hunters. I do not understand going to Africa to shoot an elephant or a lion. Nor traveling to Alaska to shoot a walrus.
    That said, PP has an spent a fortune of the SBC’s money on a trophy room for the critters he has killed. I don’t understand it, and how this wins people to Jesus, I do not know?


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    @ K.D.:

    Pecan Manor? A few years back, Hyacinth….er I mean Dorothy produced a Christmas tour of Pecan Manor video. It is quite the place. It is a show place of their travels on the SBC dime.

    I just read that Platt laid off another 20 people and will contract with an out side image firm. Word on the street is that it is the same firm fbcjaxwatchdog wrote so much about. Can’t remember the guy’s name but he did a video on how men should wear scarves. Platt is also sending minions to talk to the media and not answering questions…. even from denomination state publications. He has the playbook down well.

    It is interesting to contrast. Patterson flaunts it while Platt plays the humble poor guy on a big salary with tons of speaking gigs that pay well. He even managed to convince his fans he was in danger for Christ at the Dubai Marriott.

    The only thing to happen that would be worthy is for the money to dry up and they all go away.


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    okrapod wrote:

    Which is to say that I think I agree with you if I understand what you are saying.

    Yes, we are seeing eye to eye.

    It sometimes astonishes me in arguments in comboxes whether religious or secular how often people are unable to articulate the opinion of the person they disagree with. The opposing argument is mangled beyond recognition.

    Pastors deserve protection from this kind of thing when it occurs in the church, as the more witnesses there are to something, the less likely they are to have all got it wrong.

    If there are the witnesses, then this provision means pastors can and should be brought to account where they have been doing wrong.

    The Anglican system of bishops can be useful in this regard, as an ‘honest broker’ if there is a dispute between a clergyman and a parishioner.


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    @ okrapod:
    Booker T Washington once wrote that the color of equality is green. :o)

    A big problem is people have been conditioned over time to expect jobs and opportunity to come from big government. It is not sustainable.


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    @ Nancy2:
    There is a huge difference between normal deer hunting/snake killing (poisonous) and what he’s doing. It’s one of many reasons that responsible hunters find themselves vilified. (Btw, do you do anything along the lines of humane trap and release? My dad was a big believer in that, and it seemed to work very well.)


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    Clothing and gear from Underarmor ???!!

    Whatever could they need armoured underpants for?


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    @ okrapod:
    Oof. Ocular migraines are SO not fun!


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Whatever could they need armoured underpants for?

    Well, when they are handing out guns as prizes …


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    Just as a matter of interest, what’s the difference between shooting a cape buffalo from a land rover, and shooting a rock from a land rover?

    Taking on a cape buffalo with one of those “Knives from Case, Havalon and Schrade” would at least take a certain amount of calm under pressure. Better still, how about taking on poverty or oppression, with weapons that are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds?


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    @ Lydia:
    Lydia: What will these big shot boys in the SBC do when the money dries up?


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    Oh boy! Attended a church years ago that had PP as a speaker, the pastor was a huge fan of his (he also is a huge fan of Jerry Vines, that name is connected with the Gilyard case). Anyway, I remember well PP addressing the big game hunting thing, he said that he had faced a lot of criticism for this, but if we (the audience) were meat eaters and bought it from the local grocery store, we just hired mercenaries to do our killing. Yes, he said that!


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    In another instance, in which Patterson was accused of covering up the sexual misconduct by his protégé, Darrell Gilyard,. He attempted to obfuscate a number of accusations made by a number of women against Gilyard by saying that each complaint needed to be backed up by 2-3 witnesses!. Gilyard would eventually go to jail for his conduct.

    I have a number of friends, both women and men, who suffer from deep wounds of having been violated sexually. Aspects of those experiences can bring devastation to their soul and despair to their spirit for decades.

    Not only does Mr. Patterson’s response demonstrate an absurd lack of understanding about the damage such violations inflict on victims, and lack of compassion for them in having to carry the awful burden thereof, but it seems to me gives evidence of a seared conscience that he does not really care about what is truly right or wrong.

    And, given the context of apparently protecting his protégé, that would mean Mr. Patterson is perfectly willing to sacrifice others on the alter of whatever lies within his own affections. Is that not what lies at the heart of cruelty?


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    The point I would love to see hammered into the SBC, loudly and often, is that Patterson’s stated position of needing 2-3 witnesses for accusations of rape and/or assault against ordained men, is barely a step down from the Qu’ran’s requirement of 4 male eyewitnesses to the alleged rape of a woman before she can be taken seriously. To say what he said about Gilyard…so the more gifted and talented a minister is, the more skeptical we have to be about any accusations of misconduct? Partiality, much?

    Patterson and likeminded men continue to encourage churches to conduct their equivalent of these university kangaroo courts, thinking they can handle alleged sex CRIMES in-house, without involving the duly elected/appointed authorities that Paul in Romans taught we are to submit to. Women are supposed to submit to men. I have to wonder if these guys ever submit to anyone themselves.

    Oh well, at least they don’t seem to have picked up the practice of honor killings. 😛


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Clothing and gear from Underarmor ???!!
    Whatever could they need armoured underpants for?

    Those Castrating Jezebels?


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    @ brad/futuristguy:

    P.S. I believe the biblical word that correctly summarizes Mr. Patterson’s perspective on sexual assault and requiring 2 or 3 witnesses is ichabod. He uses Bible language for his concepts, but there is a denial of any Spirit behind it.


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    @ K.D.:
    What! No rabbits or doves or quail! K.D., you don’t know what your missing. We do wild game dinners, too. Both sexes are welcome. They are more like fellowship meals.
    Aside from pests, we don’t hunt what we won’t eat. numo wrote:

    (Btw, do you do anything along the lines of humane trap and release? My dad was a big believer in that, and it seemed to work very well.)

    No trap and release for us. Moving a raccoon, coyote, fox, possum, or bobcat to another location just means someone else’s livestock/pet/garden will be threatened. We have skunks, too – I have found a couple of those in the chicken house – wouldn’t even dream of trapping those! A few years ago, we had an over-population of skunks couple with a rabies outbreak.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Just as a matter of interest, what’s the difference between shooting a cape buffalo from a land rover, and shooting a rock from a land rover?

    I know a couple hunter types. They told me that in big game hunting, traditionally not only should the quarry have a reasonable chance of escape, but the hunter should be in some danger from the quarry. And Cape Buffalo is considered one of the most dangerous game; they said that more big game hunters had been killed by cape buffalo than any other game animal in Africa.

    But these are preacher-boys. They would do a Landrover drive-by in Perfect Safety. (Did you know Landrover got a dedicated product placement scene in Left Behind?)


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    K.D. wrote:

    He helped pay for his new ” residence” by raising insurance rates on retired SWBTS professors. Already guys not making a ton of money in retirement…

    Like the Furtick Mansion and Creflo Dollar’s Gulfstream 650 — “TITHE! TITHE! TITHE!”


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    mot wrote:

    @ Lydia:
    Lydia: What will these big shot boys in the SBC do when the money dries up?

    That’s what they are all so scared of, that’s what they are fighting tooth and claw to postpone as long as possible.

    And, they are determined to enjoy the ride as much as they can, as long as it lasts.

    Why do (some) SBC seminary presidents resemble the more unsavoury renaissance popes so much? Patterson with his wasteful luxury lifestyle, and his enjoyment of killing off as much of God’s beautiful creation as possible. Don’t get me started on Mohler. Maybe he wouldn’t be so constipated if he hadn’t CJ stuck up his duodenum!


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    I’m a gun owner and a hunter, but hunting of the sort Dr. Patterson is engaged in, using the large “weapons” he owns, approaches weird status. The money he uses for such adventures began with SBC member tithes and channeled to him by the decaying SBC empire. While he may now have other resources to tap for his African jaunts, he would not be where he is without SBC money putting him there. Those who criticize this “man of God” have a right to do so – it’s not macho, manly or godly … but juvenile behavior. I used to have a great respect for Paige Patterson and his ministry; however, it appears that he is done but hasn’t quit yet.


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    I always think about making abuse more persona and less theoretical. What if his granddaughter was sexually abused and there were no witnesses? What if his daughter, if he has one, was beaten by his son in law? Would her black eyes look a little less “good” to him? This man is very ignorant and sadly culpable as an enabler.


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    numo wrote:

    (I am not anti-hunting per se, but i think his kind of hunting should be banned; large animals can be “shot” with cameras, not bullets.)

    “Bwana” Clyde Batty thanks you, Numo. 😉

    http://www.frightenstein.com/characters/bwana.html


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    Marie wrote:

    Anyway, I remember well PP addressing the big game hunting thing, he said that he had faced a lot of criticism for this, but if we (the audience) were meat eaters and bought it from the local grocery store, we just hired mercenaries to do our killing.

    Being the farm girl that I am (we raised our own pork, beef, and chicken), I can agree with PP on that point. However, PP does not hunt to provide meat. He hunts to kill — and to show off his “manliness”. Humongenormous difference there!!!
    Besides, if PP wants to go there, then Mrs. Hyacinth Bucket needs to do speaking engagements on raising garden food and doing your own canning and freezing. Mr. Complementarian needs to tell her to submit, take off her pearls and Sunday gloves and get dirty in her food prep classes and show the “girls” how food prep really done, from beginning to end!
    IMO, they’re just a pair of egomaniacal peacocks!


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    But, Paige probably thinks real men don’t tote cameras around, they just pose in front of them in camo.

    BTW, does he know that “Paige” is a unisex name?

    Good point, Nancy. Maybe that’s what he’s “compensating” for.


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    abigail,

    If it happened to any of PP’s own female relatives, I can just about guarantee you that suddenly, the rules would magically change. The hypocrisy is quite annoying.


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    I couldn’t watch the video – this is shallow, but everything about PP’s voice and manner of speaking grated on me: the odd lisp, the mincey cadence. Smug, much? How does someone with that delivery attain the presidency of a major seminary?


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    As a Southern Baptist and former SWBTS student, I appreciate the “Deebs” holding PP’s feet to the (camp)fire on all these issues. I mostly keep my criticisms of SWBTS to myself out of respect for many fine people I know that study or work there.

    I am not anti-gun or anti-hunting, but I think this shows how out of touch SWBTS is with the community. There have been 4 shooting deaths (all separate incidents) within 5 miles of campus in the last 2 weeks. A religious institution giving away guns in this environment seems odd. Actually, any religious institution giving away guns anytime seems out of place to me.


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    Martha wrote:

    How does someone with that delivery attain the presidency of a major seminary?

    Politics.


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    FW Rez wrote:

    Martha wrote:
    How does someone with that delivery attain the presidency of a major seminary?
    FW Rez wrote: Politics.

    Exactly. The CR in the SBC was nothing short of a dirty political takeover, and PP was one of the primary calculating, backstabbing leaders.


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    I comment not approve. However it was funny-just crude.


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    FW Rez wrote:

    Actually, any religious institution giving away guns anytime seems out of place to me.

    I agree with you.


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    Martha wrote:

    How does someone with that delivery attain the presidency of a major seminary?

    His camp gear was silly as well.


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    abigail wrote:

    This man is very ignorant and sadly culpable as an enabler.

    That is an excellent observation. Some of these men are enabling abuse with their wacky activities.


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    Gus wrote:

    Why do (some) SBC seminary presidents resemble the more unsavoury renaissance popes so much? Patterson with his wasteful luxury lifestyle, and his enjoyment of killing off as much of God’s beautiful creation as possible

    I wish I had said it this way!


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    Maybe the SWBTS should offer courses in gun safety.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    But these are preacher-boys. They would do a Landrover drive-by in Perfect Safety. (Did you know Landrover got a dedicated product placement scene in Left Behind?)

    I did not know that, HUG? Sounds like the beginning of a new baptist hymn. “When Jesus blows the trumpet, it’s be me and my Landrover rising up to meet him.”


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    ichabod. He uses Bible language for his concepts, but there is a denial of any Spirit behind it.

    Wow-hadn’t thought of it.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    The CR in the SBC was nothing short of a dirty political takeover

    It should be obvious to all by now that SBC’s “Conservative” Resurgence was really a “Calvinist” Resurgence. As one of the CR architects, Paige Patterson (a non-Calvinist) was apparently too occupied with his big game adventures to discern what was really taking place. When he finally took his camo off and put his weapons back in the gun case, it was too late … the SBC pendulum had done swung back 500 years and resurrected John Calvin.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Taking on a cape buffalo with one of those “Knives from Case, Havalon and Schrade” would at least take a certain amount of calm under pressure. Better still, how about taking on poverty or oppression, with weapons that are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds?

    Funny and poignant at the same time, Nick!


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    It’s funny, but it’s not.
    The problem with this attitude is it’s insidious.
    Actually have been to church a few times this year. Went to my wife’s Assemblies of God church. They’re doing a series of sermons based on the movie “War Room”. Watched the movie so I’d know what they’re talking about. Didn’t finish it – I found it to be pretty complementarian in it’s outlook. Won’t bother going to the rest of the sermon series either.
    The point is: Even the rank and file in Evangelical churches don’t see anything wrong with this outlook. It’s in the bible.
    The way my wife looks at it- take what’s good and leave the rest. But I’m unable to pick and choose like that. I see nothing good in complementarianism.
    I’ve read the comments and heard the argument “It’s about what God wants”.
    Well, women are people, in every sense of the word. Young women are moving into trades, heavy equipment operation, pilots, mechanics and engineering. Do you think they’re going to sign on to this?
    Like the pathological fixation on young earth creationism, the reality of the world scares these “men”. Christianity is one voice in a pluralistic society. Instead of seeing this as a challenge, they want to control, control, control. So they focus on snippets of Paul and the Bronze Age societies of the Old Testament.
    I applaud women like Naghmeh, who are not afraid to stand up and protect themselves and their children. Christians (men and women both) need to reclaim their religion.


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    To our readers

    Did you know that there are all kinds of Baptist missions, including an orphanage, over there in safari land that need a Baptist seminary President to look in on them? Gee-I wonder if the SBC pays his way over there? Then he could go and do a Safari Hunt and not have to spend too much of his own money. Now, I am merely speculating…


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    @ Jack:
    Awesome comment.


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    My arthritis is still present this morning. What a surprise!


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    numo wrote:

    Oof. Ocular migraines are SO not fun!

    This is not ocular (retinal) headaches. The diagnosis is ‘persistent visual aura without infarction without status migrainosus’. This is hugely aggravating but not painful. This person also has had a few ocular migraines over the years which have been dramatic but not especially painful and many tension headaches which are painful but not dramatic, but whether there is any causal relationship between all these diagnoses is not known because so little is known about the persistent aura condition, or so they have told us. She is on level 2 treatment for the headaches with moderately good results, but there is no treatment for the persistent aura, nor do they know for sure what causes it except they think it is an inflammatory process of the ocular cortex of the brain. Thank God we have access to a pediatric neurologist at the local university medical center, because this is all quite complicated.

    For anybody who is interested in headaches here is a link to the classification system (ICD 10) and a good place to get an overview. IMO headache conditions and their associated complications are an area where more information needs to get around to people.

    http://ihs-classification.org/en/


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    dee wrote:

    I did not know that, HUG? Sounds like the beginning of a new baptist hymn. “When Jesus blows the trumpet, it’s be me and my Landrover rising up to meet him.”

    I was thinking that PP might be swept by a Landrover into heaven, right after he and his successor part the Mississippi and his successor makes a Winchester float.


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    dee wrote:

    My arthritis is still present this morning. What a surprise!

    So sorry that you’re dealing with arthritis 🙁 You might not want to go back to the same shop for the next pedicure though. Your praying friend may heap on more pain by letting you it is all your fault you weren’t healed.


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    There is something ‘different’ about people who kill animals just be be killing. Food acquisition is a good reason, thinning the population when needed is a good reason, stamping out epidemics is good. Even the occasional hunt to maintain skills, provide the meat is actually eaten, can be a good reason. But killing for the sake of killing is not a good reason.

    I have killed my share of chickens in the past and my share of lab rats also in the past, except only that I did not shoot any of them. Might have been easier if I had for some of the chickens. But there was always a reason to kill them. So I do not think that every kill of every animal is wrong. But killing for no reason and for the mere sake of killing is not okay.


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    Bridget wrote:

    Your praying friend may heap on more pain by letting you it is all your fault you weren’t healed.

    Yes, Dee. The Nailpolish man will probably tell you that your faith just isn’t strong enough. But. At least you can blame Eve.
    I am sorry about your arthritis, though. I hope it’s not bad enough to stop you from doing what you need or want to do.


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    dee wrote:

    Sounds like the beginning of a new baptist hymn. “When Jesus blows the trumpet, it’s be me and my Landrover rising up to meet him.”

    Or just repeat 8-10 times and you have a complete worship chorus.


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    dee wrote:

    My arthritis is still present this morning. What a surprise!

    It’s no joke that you have got arthritis, but I did wonder if there would be a good report or not. When you see your little friend again, I wonder if it will turn out ‘you didn’t have enough faith’?

    There is something very sad about this little episode. It’s good that someone would want to pray for the healing of sickness. Precious few Christians really have much faith in a God who will actually intervene, and up to a point I have to include myself in this. Praying like this with an expectancy should be encouraged, rather than the deism of so much evangelicalism.

    Yet there is also in the background a clear lack of teaching. Just what has God promised in the area of healing? Prayer cannot always be an ‘instant fix’ for problems physical or otherwise, sometimes more involvement of time and effort is required. Promising answers to prayer can be very damaging if the answer for what ever reason doesn’t happen.

    I doubt if your faith is going to be damaged by this, but what of those who are promised they will conceive a child, and this doesn’t happen? I’ve known of this where the ministry doing the praying and promising then disappeared off the scene to the next set of Big Meetings, and someone else in a local church had to try to pick up the pieces of a disappointed and disillusioned couple.

    Healing is a topic where it is all too easy to be blown around by every wind of doctrine, whether the unbelief of cessationalists’ ‘it’s not for today’ to the overconfident presumption of charismatics, who think ending the prayer with ‘in the name of JEEEESUS’ will do the trick, especially if it is shouted loud enough, and in the UK, with an American accent. (I kid you not.)


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    This is the “LEGALIZE RAPE” crowd, right?

    Looks like it. I didn’t even know such a group existed! Kudos to the establishment owner for going to the police. Now, someone needs to hack this group’s website and replace all their info with a video of Helen Reddy singing “I am Woman.”


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    K.D. wrote:

    I don’t understand it, and how this wins people to Jesus, I do not know?

    They think the church lacks men (all the while ignoring that lots of women have been quitting church, but who cares about women, right?) and they figure the way to attract more men to church is through holding stereotypical manly man functions.

    Churches Want Your Dad, and Will Give Him Bacon, Guns, and a Grill
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/21/churches-want-your-dad-and-will-give-him-bacon-guns-and-a-grill.html


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    This is the “LEGALIZE RAPE” crowd, right?
    Looks like it. I didn’t even know such a group existed!

    Well, “Rapist’s Rights” DOES sound like the Ultimate MRA/Manosphere Cause…


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    okrapod wrote:

    This is not basically about guns, and Nancy2 is not red neck. This is not primarily about doctrine and Ken is not red neck. But there is such a thing as red neck and we see it in the south in various manifestations and TX seems to have its variety and it is infiltrating those of the residual middle class who have not morphed into the upper stratum as some have done. And it is spreading like a cancer. These bozos in the pulpit are playing to that, and it breaks my heart and scares me to the bone.

    Well said. There is an extremism going on in society, US society specifically, and it’s manifest in various parts of society such as politics and religion. I call it “realityTV-itis.” Everything has to be bigger, louder, more ridiculous, etc. The lunatic fringe isn’t on the fringe anymore. Things will become more moderate, but it will take time. As for the church specifically, the neo-cals and their extremism grew in popularity, but I think (I hope and pray) that people are seeing through them and are turning against them and their perversion of the religion. Plus God will step in, or is stepping in, to straighten out his church. Then, the guilty parties had better watch out!


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    I was thinking that PP might be swept by a Landrover into heaven, right after he and his successor part the Mississippi and his successor makes a Winchester float.

    You’ve been watching the last scene of Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life one time too many. (Though not as many as Prosperity Gospel preachers…)


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    Jack wrote:

    The way my wife looks at it- take what’s good and leave the rest.

    Tell your wife that when someone gets all Biblical about “Chew the meat and spit out the bones”, they’re usually trying to unload a bag of dry bones on you.


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    Max wrote:

    I’m a gun owner and a hunter, but hunting of the sort Dr. Patterson is engaged in, using the large “weapons” he owns, approaches weird status.

    Can you give examples of such large “weapons”?
    (Though I suspect “*****(ed.) extensions” would be a better description — “ME MAN! SEE? SEE? SEE?”)
    .600 Nitro Express Double?
    .50 BMG Barett 82?
    .577 T-Rex?
    20mm Lahti?


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Jack wrote:
    The way my wife looks at it- take what’s good and leave the rest.
    HUG said: Tell your wife that when someone gets all Biblical about “Chew the meat and spit out the bones”, they’re usually trying to unload a bag of dry bones on you.

    Nah. Tell her that the next time she sees mold growing on food.


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    Daisy wrote:

    They think the church lacks men (all the while ignoring that lots of women have been quitting church, but who cares about women, right?)

    Put out the bait to bring the men back and the women will SUBMIT!


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Exactly. The CR in the SBC was nothing short of a dirty political takeover, and PP was one of the primary calculating, backstabbing leaders.

    “Because of this the name of God is a laughingstock among the Heathen.”


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    I didn’t even know such a group existed!

    I only learned about it some 3-ish years ago when some Men’s Right Activist supporters showed up to comment on Spiritual Sounding Board. Yes, they exist.

    Which reminds me, my family watched Suffragette last night. Even my 9-year-old daughter was moved by the struggles of women to obtain rights that many women in my generation take for granted today. Some of these groups, the SBC included, would love to take us back to the nineteenth century.


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    Daisy wrote:

    K.D. wrote:

    I don’t understand it, and how this wins people to Jesus, I do not know?

    They think the church lacks men (all the while ignoring that lots of women have been quitting church, but who cares about women, right?) and they figure the way to attract more men to church is through holding stereotypical manly man functions.

    Churches Want Your Dad, and Will Give Him Bacon, Guns, and a Grill
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/21/churches-want-your-dad-and-will-give-him-bacon-guns-and-a-grill.html

    Long ago, I read the following definition of Hypermasculinity:
    “Picking Fights, SHOOTING GUNS, and Getting Laid.”


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Put out the bait to bring the men back and the women will SUBMIT!

    With the implied threat of “at gunpoint, if necessary”.
    ME MAN! RAWR!!!


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    dee wrote:

    Then he could go and do a Safari Hunt and not have to spend too much of his own money. Now, I am merely speculating…

    I read some articles a couple years back that tele-evangelist Benny Hinn stopped his private jet at tropical places like Hawaii or where ever (I don’t recall the exact locations, but they are vacation destinations for many people), and he claimed he was stopping over at such places do to ministry work.

    Sure he was. Sure he was. (If ministry = wearing flip flops and cut-offs and strolling casually down beaches in the evening watching the sun set.)


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    okrapod wrote:

    There is something ‘different’ about people who kill animals just be be killing. Food acquisition is a good reason, thinning the population when needed is a good reason, stamping out epidemics is good. Even the occasional hunt to maintain skills, provide the meat is actually eaten, can be a good reason. But killing for the sake of killing is not a good reason.

    Even the Wolves of the Seeonee Pack know that:

    “But kill not for pleasure of killing,
    And seven times never kill Man.”
    — Rudyard Kipling, “Law of the Jungle”, First Jungle Book


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    Daisy wrote:

    K.D. wrote:
    I don’t understand it, and how this wins people to Jesus, I do not know?
    They think the church lacks men (all the while ignoring that lots of women have been quitting church, but who cares about women, right?) and they figure the way to attract more men to church is through holding stereotypical manly man functions.
    Churches Want Your Dad, and Will Give Him Bacon, Guns, and a Grill
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/21/churches-want-your-dad-and-will-give-him-bacon-guns-and-a-grill.html

    Last Father’s Day, my church had platters of bacon (yum!) and a couple of monster trucks in the parking lot, but It was all cute and fun. The sermon didn’t have any of “the leader in the home” nonsense. It was just a few guys sharing what they’ve learned on how to be a good father. Good stuff – and no guns! (I’m not anti-gun; it’s just guns in church is weird.)


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    Daisy wrote:

    I read some articles a couple years back that tele-evangelist Benny Hinn stopped his private jet at tropical places like ….. and he claimed he was stopping over at such places do to ministry work.
    Sure he was. Sure he was. (If ministry = wearing flip flops and cut-offs and strolling casually down beaches in the evening watching the sun set.)

    Or, watching the bikini-barely-clad babes.


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    About a year ago, “Stuff Christian Culture Likes” facebook page did a post with a flier by some church.

    (I tried to find that post again but have been unable to at this time.)

    The church flier the page posted advertised a manly man type event, something about hunting and/or giving away firearms.

    In one line on the flier or poster was some text reading something like, “No women allowed at this event, except to cook and clean the dishes.” -Seriously, that was on there.

    The reason I wish I could find that post/ flier/ link again is that I can’t remember if that church was serious about it or not (I think they were) – I have a vague memory that someone from the church later said they were only ‘joking’ about that or something.

    I couldn’t find that link but did find this guest post written by a man (Ed Cyzewski) at Sarah Bessey’s blog:

    In which some guys do not want to kill stuff at mens’ ministry
    http://sarahbessey.com/in-which-some-guys-do-not-want-to-kill/

    A snippet from that page:

    My guess is that the really extroverted, competitive guys who go in for aggressive, high adrenaline activities also feel comfortable leading other men.

    The guys like me who prefer to plant garlic bulbs in the fall and make blueberry jam in the summer are left to sit on their porches with their pansies.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Well, “Rapist’s Rights” DOES sound like the Ultimate MRA/Manosphere Cause…

    Yeah. It boggles the mind. Oh, as a couple of people have mentioned, the MRAs are commenting over at Spiritual Sounding Board. Julie Ann will have to spray down her site with Lysol.


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    Daisy wrote:

    at such places do to ministry work.

    I meant “DUE” to, not “do to.” Sigh.


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    okrapod wrote:

    This is not basically about guns, and Nancy2 is not red neck. This is not primarily about doctrine and Ken is not red neck. But there is such a thing as red neck and we see it in the south in various manifestations and TX seems to have its variety and it is infiltrating those of the residual middle class who have not morphed into the upper stratum as some have done.

    It’s not just the South okrapod. The Pacific Northwest is a hornet’s nest of redneckism and fundagelical whackos.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    The Pacific Northwest is a hornet’s nest of redneckism and fundagelical whackos.

    Mark Driscoll????


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    dee wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    But these are preacher-boys. They would do a Landrover drive-by in Perfect Safety. (Did you know Landrover got a dedicated product placement scene in Left Behind?)

    I did not know that, HUG? Sounds like the beginning of a new baptist hymn. “When Jesus blows the trumpet, it’s be me and my Landrover rising up to meet him.”

    Oh, it gets better. According to Slacktivist, this is the outline of the scene, in Volume 2 of “History Written in Advance”/the 68th Book of the Bible:

    * Author Self-Insert (self-described “Greatest Investigative Reporter of All Time”) is driving his SUV on a major street outside Chicago when the city takes one or two megaton-range nuclear detonations. (Ground Zeros presumably The Loop and O’Hare Airport.)
    * Author Self-Insert is unaffected by flash blindness, thermal pulse, or the following blast shockwave. Author Self-Insert’s SUV is unaffected by the EMP.
    * Author Self-Insert heroically cuts his SUV across and over the median in a Movie Car Chase maneuver — and pulls into a Landrover dealership.
    * Author Self-Insert heroically strides into dealership and buys a Landrover on-the-spot with his credit card.
    * Landrover Salesman in dealership has not fled; he makes the sale as if nothing out of the ordinary has happened. All the paperwork, all the credit checks. Dealership’s systems are unaffected by EMP; building and inventory intact, not even broken windows. Landrovers operational despite EMP.
    * Author Self-Insert drives out of dealership in his new Landrover; breaking the fourth wall, he makes a Product Placement speech/Landrover ad copy Testimony.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    * Author Self-Insert is unaffected by flash blindness, thermal pulse, or the following blast shockwave. Author Self-Insert’s SUV is unaffected by the EMP.

    A modern day conversion of Saul to Apostle Paul?


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    FW Rez wrote:

    Actually, any religious institution giving away guns anytime seems out of place to me.

    Unless it’s the First Church of Zardoz:

    “FOR ZARDOZ YOUR GOD GAVE YOU THE GIFT OF THE GUN!
    THE GUN IS GOOD!”
    (“The Gun is Good!”)


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    * Author Self-Insert is unaffected by flash blindness, thermal pulse, or the following blast shockwave. Author Self-Insert’s SUV is unaffected by the EMP.

    A modern day conversion of Saul to Apostle Paul?

    No.
    That happens in another of the same author’s novels.
    A Near Future Persecution Dystopia titled Soon.
    Even worse than Left Behind.
    Check out the review/analysis over at Heathen Critique.


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    FW Rez wrote:

    dee wrote:

    Sounds like the beginning of a new baptist hymn. “When Jesus blows the trumpet, it’s be me and my Landrover rising up to meet him.”

    Or just repeat 8-10 times and you have a complete worship chorus.

    Isn’t there something in the Bible about “Vain Repetitions”?
    Or does that only apply to The Rosary?


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Maybe the SWBTS should offer courses in gun safety.

    I think they may have done so in the past….


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    Ken – your comment about the healing of Dee’s arthritis was just about the same thing I wanted to say. I think you said it better than I would have. These “name it and claim it” people really get to me. If that was the case about all our illnesses, then we wouldn’t have any of them. But it’s not. PP and his group make me sick. They are trying to take women’s right back to the 1800’s or earlier. My son lives right by this seminary and goes to church with several the students from there. He has been talking about how when he ever gets married that he is the head of the household. I think we will have to talk to him about that. My husband is one of the few men in East Texas that don’t hunt. He fishes though. He is as manly of a man there is except he cleans my house for me (lol).


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    Patterson believes you must have 2-3 witnesses to accuse a pastor of sex crimes.

    I wonder if “accuse a pastor of sex crimes” might hit him a little too close to home.
    As in “Live Boy or Dead Woman” close to home.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    It’s not just the South okrapod. The Pacific Northwest is a hornet’s nest of redneckism and fundagelical whackos.

    Yikes.


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    Lydia wrote:

    There used to be a blogger who worked for him and showed how eccentric and corrupt he is with his commissioned portraits with his dog, big game stuffing and mounting and even an expensive tombstone for his dog —-

    Dog outranks Wife?


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    Sick book:

    http://azfamilychurches.com/David-Edgington-Bio.htm

    The Abusive Wife: Ministering to the Contentious Woman
    by “Dr.” David D. Edgington

    Notice all the endorsers are male, including nouthetic counseling bigwig Jay Adams who summarizes the book’s message as: “Shrewish women and what the Bible says about them”.

    Here is the author’s 2013 mugshot for a domestic violence (assault) arrest several years ago:

    http://mugshots.mobi/arizona/maricopa-county/8434880


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    @ Catherine:

    Where in WI? I lived in Milwaukee for years. 🙂


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    @ K.D.:
    What! No rabbits or doves or quail! K.D., you don’t know what your missing. We do wild game dinners, too. Both sexes are welcome. They are more like fellowship meals.
    Aside from pests, we don’t hunt what we won’t eat. numo wrote:
    (Btw, do you do anything along the lines of humane trap and release? My dad was a big believer in that, and it seemed to work very well.)
    No trap and release for us. Moving a raccoon, coyote, fox, possum, or bobcat to another location just means someone else’s livestock/pet/garden will be threatened. We have skunks, too – I have found a couple of those in the chicken house – wouldn’t even dream of trapping those! A few years ago, we had an over-population of skunks couple with a rabies outbreak.

    I agree, if we have trouble with a ‘ coon’ or ‘possum or fox…..it is not sent on for someone else to worry with…it is shot….sorry, but that’s just the way it is…
    Rabbits here tend to be tough as leather swamp rabbits. There has never been quail in this part of the world, ducks, tons of geese, which nearly always winds up in a gumbo for the meal. And a duck and turnip casserole which, if done right, might be the best thing served at the meal.


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    okrapod wrote:

    Muff Potter wrote:

    It’s not just the South okrapod. The Pacific Northwest is a hornet’s nest of redneckism and fundagelical whackos.

    Yikes.

    Rural Idaho’s said to be a similar hornet’s nest. Douggie and his Kirk in Moscow are not the only ones around; White Aryan Resistance, Covenant Arm and Sword of The LORD, and other white supremacist groups are headquartered up there.

    One retired FBI profiler who worked on the Unabomber said it’s because Idaho and Montana are so big and empty that if you want to carve out your own kingdom without interference or just get away from other people in general, that’s the best place to go in the States south of Alaska. (Someone else pointed out that it’s also close to the Canadian border if you have to get out of dodge fast.)


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    We have skunks, too – I have found a couple of those in the chicken house – wouldn’t even dream of trapping those!

    A friend of mine trapped a live skunk, the trap looked like a large briefcase. He hauled the case up and set it along side the road and went back down do get the rest of his gear. As he returned to the road, someone had stolen the case and was driving off.

    Not to fear, the thieves stopped a few hundred feet down the road and put the case back on the side of the road and continued on.


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    Harley wrote:

    He is as manly of a man there is except he cleans my house for me (lol).

    Any man who does housework is a very manly man and a keeper!


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    Jerome wrote:

    The Abusive Wife: Ministering to the Contentious Woman
    by “Dr.” David D. Edgington

    Honorary Doctorate?

    Notice all the endorsers are male, including nouthetic counseling bigwig Jay Adams who summarizes the book’s message as: “Shrewish women and what the Bible says about them”.

    Here is the author’s 2013 mugshot for a domestic violence (assault) arrest several years ago:

    Didn’t “domestic violence (assault)” used to be called “wife beating”?


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    Wonder where Doug Wilson and his fanboys are on this issue? Oh that’s right, he’s waxing verbose and elequent about something stupid again.


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    “Lions and tigers and bears….OH MY!

    LOL…another effort to help men on the path to becoming “Authentic Men.”


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    dee wrote:

    I did not know that, HUG? Sounds like the beginning of a new baptist hymn. “When Jesus blows the trumpet, it’s be me and my Landrover rising up to meet him.”

    All you liberal apostates (Potter included) better get rapture ready!


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    You might be a redneck if you think that any teaching of critical thinking in the schools is a gummint plot to destroy the nation.

    You might be a redneck if you think that moral and ethical integrity is genetically passed down to the next generation, which is why Junior should not be in jail right now because his daddy and his granddaddy both were good men. And I don’t care what they say about that one incident with his daddy, he was a good man.

    You might be a redneck if you think that the anatomic location of the human brain is in the underwear.

    You might be a redneck if you see people mostly as groups and not as individuals, and make no allowance for any information to the contrary.

    You definitely are a redneck if you think that God put you in charge but left it to you to achieve and maintain that position. And you are definitely a redneck if you cannot understand why other people don’t see this. Must be because they are (racial comment) or (gender comment) or (political comment) or possibly even people influenced by the gummint, but for sure it is all a plot to destroy the nation.


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    Things will become more moderate, but it will take time

    I hope so but when it is all introduced so young it becomes the new normal. They know nothing else. I have been astonished in my lifetime at what has become the normal.


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    @ Catherine:

    I was born on the Stockbridge Menominee Res and lived my childhood in Racine.


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    okrapod wrote:

    But killing for no reason and for the mere sake of killing is not okay.

    Those are my feelings as well on this subject.


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    Jack wrote:

    The way my wife looks at it- take what’s good and leave the rest. But I’m unable to pick and choose like that. I see nothing good in complementarianism.

    I am like this now, too. Especially when it comes to filling your kids heads with the whole gender war thing. They sponge everything up by osmosis. The other problem is that teens questioning at church seems to be verboten in most evangelical venues. No Thanks. Learning comes from thinking and asking questions. Not indoctrination.


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    Bridget wrote:

    okrapod wrote:

    But killing for no reason and for the mere sake of killing is not okay.

    Those are my feelings as well on this subject.

    Are spiders exempt? I kill them just for the sake of killing them. :o)


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Muff Potter wrote:

    The Pacific Northwest is a hornet’s nest of redneckism and fundagelical whackos.

    Mark Driscoll????

    When it comes to Rednecks in the Pacific Northwest, I would think he was their king.


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    @ BeenThereDoneThat:

    You might enjoy Iron Jawed Angels.

    http://iron-jawed-angels.com/

    It is bizarre when you think they were arrested for protesting in front of the White House and force fed in prison during hunger strikes.


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    Lydia wrote:

    You might enjoy Iron Jawed Angels.
    http://iron-jawed-angels.com/

    I loved this! Their courage was admirable.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    lived my childhood in Racine

    IIRC Racine used to be the site of Mary apparitions. My mom and her sisters used to go there.

    My folks were born in Appleton and Kaukaunna.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Isn’t there something in the Bible about “Vain Repetitions”?
    Or does that only apply to The Rosary?

    One of Papa Chuck’s favorite verses back in the day. It was always a not so subtle diss of the Roman Catholic Church. Dave Hunt took up the war-hoop later on with his propaganda tome: A Woman Rides the Beast


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    Jerome wrote:

    The Abusive Wife: Ministering to the Contentious Woman
    by “Dr.” David D. Edgington

    Here is the author’s 2013 mugshot for a domestic violence (assault) arrest several years ago:

    Ha! Projection much?


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    I must have missed that passage in the Gospels where Jesus took his disciples to a quiet place where the local arms manufacturers donated door prizes for them to use to hunt lions, deer and conies.

    Envisioning Jesus organizing a gun giveaway event at a seminary turns the gospel on its head. Yet perhaps this is exactly how Mr. Patterson envisions Jesus. If so, he needs to go back and read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and keep reading them over and over until he stops envisioning Jesus that way.


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    okrapod wrote:

    You might be a redneck if you think that the anatomic location of the human brain is in the underwear.

    It all depends on what you regard as the seat of learning …


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    Lydia wrote:

    It is bizarre when you think they were arrested for protesting in front of the White House and force fed in prison during hunger strikes.

    Thanks! I’ll look into that. Schools must have glossed over the violence when teaching this topic in school. I don’t remember suffragettes being beaten, arrested, and forced fed. And in Suffragette the main character’s husband gives their son away to another family, because the child is legally his property. She has no rights over her own child.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Dave Hunt took up the war-hoop later on with his propaganda tome: A Woman Rides the Beast

    You do know that “ride” has a secondary meaning?
    (Especially if you have a dirty mind…)


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    @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    The subject of suffragettes came up in conversation today funnily enough. I’ve often wished it were possible to go back in time, and see the looks on the faces of the campaigners when told it was the Conservative party in the UK that produced Britain’s first women prime minister.

    I’ve always assumed the campaign was largely from the political left, but I might be wrong on this. Another thing to look into when I have time!


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    okrapod wrote:

    You might be a redneck if you think that any teaching of critical thinking in the schools is a gummint plot to destroy the nation.
    You might be a redneck if you think that moral and ethical integrity is genetically passed down to the next generation, which is why Junior should not be in jail right now because his daddy and his granddaddy both were good men. And I don’t care what they say about that one incident with his daddy, he was a good man.
    You might be a redneck if you think that the anatomic location of the human brain is in the underwear.
    You might be a redneck if you see people mostly as groups and not as individuals, and make no allowance for any information to the contrary.
    You definitely are a redneck if you think that God put you in charge but left it to you to achieve and maintain that position. And you are definitely a redneck if you cannot understand why other people don’t see this. Must be because they are (racial comment) or (gender comment) or (political comment) or possibly even people influenced by the gummint, but for sure it is all a plot to destroy the nation.

    Are you living in East Texas too?


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    Dan from georgia wrote:

    Wonder where Doug Wilson and his fanboys are on this issue? Oh that’s right, he’s waxing verbose and elequent about something stupid again.

    As of late, Wilson is busy telling women they can expect to be raped if they don’t acquiesce or seek out male covering or male protection.(*)

    I again love how these doofi (plural of doofus) continually overlook some women never marry, they have no living male relatives (or what male relatives they have are elderly and too frail to protect them), or their husband dies or divorces them.

    As someone on another site pointed out, even the married ones can get attacked – if their husband is out on deployment, or out at work at night and the wife is all alone at home. Having a man in one’s life is not a magical guarantee anti-rape protection.
    —–
    *Does Douglas Wilson Teach That Unsubmissive Women Deserve Rape?
    http://www.jorymicah.com/does-douglas-wilson-teach-that-unsubmissive-women-deserve-rape/


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    Tim wrote:

    I must have missed that passage in the Gospels where Jesus took his disciples to a quiet place where the local arms manufacturers donated door prizes for them to use to hunt lions, deer and conies.

    That would come around Matthew 15:40, and after Jesus extols the wonders of mixed martial arts, defeating other men at arm wrestling, and crushing beer cans with one hand. It’s called the “Sermon on Manliness.”


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    [sorry, this may sound political] One of many reasons Ted Cruz appalls me. [end political comment]


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    Melody wrote:

    [sorry, this may sound political] One of many reasons Ted Cruz appalls me. [end political comment]

    That’s okay, he appalls me too….at least he’s not your US Senator….


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    Daisy wrote:

    That would come around Matthew 15:40, and after Jesus extols the wonders of mixed martial arts, defeating other men at arm wrestling, and crushing beer cans with one hand. It’s called the “Sermon on Manliness.”

    Wow. Now, I’ll have ugly visions every time I think about Sermon on the “Mount”!


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    Daisy wrote:

    As of late, Wilson is busy telling women they can expect to be raped if they don’t acquiesce or seek out male covering or male protection.(*)

    So getting raped is God’s Punishment for Uppity Wimmen who are not Submissive enough?


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    One of Papa Chuck’s favorite verses back in the day. It was always a not so subtle diss of the Roman Catholic Church.

    If it wasn’t the RCC, it was Star Wars.
    That guy had a LOT of “bright red murder flag” triggers.


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    Daisy wrote:

    It’s called the “Sermon on Manliness.”

    SNORT!


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    K.D. wrote:

    Melody wrote:

    [sorry, this may sound political] One of many reasons Ted Cruz appalls me. [end political comment]

    That’s okay, he appalls me too….at least he’s not your US Senator….

    Just GOD’s Anointed Choice for your next President!
    (Just like all the other GOP Great White Hopes in 2008 and 2012…)


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    Ken wrote:

    I’ve often wished it were possible to go back in time, and see the looks on the faces of the campaigners when told it was the Conservative party in the UK that produced Britain’s first women prime minister.

    This is just a thought. I don’t know much about British politics, and I’m still learning about the system in my own country. In the US, the Democrats and Republicans have gradually reversed positions on many issues over the past generations. Democrats used to be the more conservative party. My very conservative, very devout Southern Baptist grandparents always voted Democrat. I wish they were alive today for me to ask them why. Nowadays, in some parts of the US, you’re practically not a Christian if you don’t vote Republican.

    I wonder if there has been a similar reversal in British political parties?


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    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    you’re practically not a Christian if you don’t vote Republican.

    Unless the Republican you vote for is named Donald.


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    @ BeenThereDoneThat:

    If you look at the years leading up to Ratification, it is WW1. They were vilified for protesting over something so trite during that war to end all wars.

    But I remind all that not for the male vote would it have been ratified. Go men!


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    I just got a pack of information from Medicare informing me that in the last quarter of 2015 they denied 15 claims, but that the reason they denied the claims was that the services were never provided and no claims were ever filed, so therefore I am not responsible to pay for services neither provided nor claimed.

    Yep. That is what they said. Don’t try to make sense of it, you will only get a headache.


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    @ okrapod:
    Ask your doctors to start sending claims as registered mail. See how many hoops they have to jump through to get out of it that way!


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    Industry gift certificates from Cabela’s, DFW Shooting Sports, Cowtown Bowman, Kripple Creek Kennel, and Pure Adventure Outdoors.

    So close…
    Change one letter and you have “Kripple Kreek Kennel”, which 90 years ago would have been a recognition signal for the Ku Klux Klan.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    you’re practically not a Christian if you don’t vote Republican.

    Unless the Republican you vote for is named Donald.

    “WHO IS LIKE UNTO THE TRUMP! WHO CAN STAND AGAINST HIM!”
    Even Jerry Falwell Jr makes pilgrimage to Him to deliver the Anointing!


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    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    . My very conservative, very devout Southern Baptist grandparents always voted Democrat.

    Mine, too. I’m still a registered Democrat……. kinda glad of it now that David -women weren’t allowed to vote to protect the family unit- is on the Republican band wagon.


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    @ BeenThereDoneThat:

    There are those in fundagelical land who’d love to return us to those good old days.


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    @ Nancy2:

    That is not the point. It is far worse than that. The services were not provided, and nobody ever said they were. There was nothing done at the doctor’s office for which a claim should have been filed and therefore no claim was filed. I cannot imagine why they denied some hypothetical claims which I suppose they might have paid for had the services been provided and had claims been filed. They ‘denied’ approval for something which never happened and which nobody ever said did happen, and they know that and that is what they told me.


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    @ okrapod:
    There was a certain surgeon here who became Lt Gov who was billing medicaid for operations he did not perform.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    There are those in fundagelical land who’d love to return us to those good old days.

    That’s what scares me about people supporting Patterson and his shenanigans. Are they suffering from collective amnesia about how things used to be? Yes, there are social problems now. But there have always been social problems. A Stepford Wife society is not going to cure that.


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    @ Max:

    Isn't it interesting that Mohler has implemented the same stealth takeover tactics that Patterson used (appointed positions throughout the SBC and such).

    We've come a long way, but we've come the wrong way. 🙁


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    Patterson’s advice to the abused woman in his story sounds like it was taken straight out of the nouthetic counseling playbook.

    So he’s willing to put a woman back into a known abusive situation to be victimized again, but when it comes to himself, he’s all about having a huge weapon to kill with. That is cowardice, and the opposite of biblical love.

    Here’s the thing. Of all the times I’ve met a person who is actually supremely good at something or has some wonderful quality in abundance, I can’t think of a single time when that person has boasted or played up their ability. Not once. The most skilled surgeons, the best warriors, and the most accomplished pilots have all had a calm confidence about them and usually understated their abilities if asked about them. And the people with the most real courage and love are the same.

    In my experience, people who engage in the kind of macho theatrics that Patterson seems to love are usually covering for some truly deep deficiency, and they’re the first to cut and run when things get tough.

    Also, the timing of his promotional video is terrible and indicative of his ignorance of the issues. The Superbowl is just a few days away and it’s well known to be a time when domestic violence/abuse spikes. Another testosterone-infused macho advert is just about the last thing this country needs.

    MOD addemdum: I’m going to do something I try and avoid and stick a comment into the thread. As far as I know this is an Urban Legend. It got started by some counseling groups speculating this was so and it morphed into a story that got passed on so much that the legend became “fact”.[1] People who’ve analysed the stats on this say there is NO correlation to the Super Bowl and domestic violence.[2] There’s enough to deal with if we stick to facts without jumping to urban legends.

    GBTC

    [1] Riffing on the end of the movie “The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance”

    [2] My wife spend many years working with a local domestic shelter but parted ways with them eventually over things like this.


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    FW Rez wrote:

    dee wrote:
    Sounds like the beginning of a new baptist hymn. “When Jesus blows the trumpet, it’s be me and my Landrover rising up to meet him.”
    Or just repeat 8-10 times and you have a complete worship chorus.

    There you go!


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    You know, it was not a perfect career, it was awful at times, but I am so glad I got a job teaching high school when I ” was released” from the seminary. I couldn’t do the pastor/church staff business today….heck, I couldn’t do it then…


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    So getting raped is God’s Punishment for Uppity Wimmen who are not Submissive enough?

    Well, now, HUG, you know it’s Doug Wilson we’re talking about here, so he likes to back- track when called out on his obnoxious commentary.

    Wilson of course later denied that he came right out and said “unsubmissive women deserve to be raped,” but that was exactly what he was getting at.


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    @ Nancy2:
    Nancy, i have a pet rabbit. I literally cannot talk about this.

    Coyotes are one thing, but bobcats are a protected spevies in my state. (Might be true of foxes as well, would have to check.) My parents lived in the country, and my dad limited trap and release to raccoons and groundhogs. We get bear coming through very, very close to houses in late spring, when it’s mating season and males are covering up to 150 miles per day, looking for mates.

    Back in the day,my brothers hunted small game, but i couldn’t. (Unless it was the only way i had of feeding myself.)


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    @ Nancy2:
    I think anyone other than a game warden or experienced wildlife rehabber would be insane to live-trap a bobcat or coyote!


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    @ dee:
    Yep!


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    @ dee:

    For some reason, i literally LOLed at this. Good one!


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    @ Lydia:

    Well, this was a routine medicare physical which is hooked into the e-records systems and billing for the system, and I don’t see how that could happen, especially since they meticulously did pay for what was actually done.

    Here is what I think is going on. The gov through medicare is trying to intervene in elder care and there is a standard procedure including standard e-forms to be submitted to them for what to do and what to say and what to ask the patient and what to offer the patient on the yearly exams and what was done and what the patient said and such. Most of that I reject as unnecessary for various reasons. So most of it was not done. They (medicare) sent me the information they had as to what was done or not and what was claimed or not (lots of 00 in the amount claimed column) and the information they sent me was exactly correct. They said themselves that the procedures were not done and that no claims were submitted for the procedures. So far so good, and exactly correct.

    And then they said that they had denied those claims–the very claims which they just said had never been submitted. And they had denied claims which had not been submitted since the procedures were never done (duh) and they had determined that the patient financial responsibility in all this was zip. I just find it ludicrous that they deny claims which were never filed for procedures which were never done, and they know this, and ‘deny’ the supposedly hypothetical claims anyhow.

    There has to be some accounting advantage to this for them, but I have no idea what it is.


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    @ okrapod:
    Oof. Again. The late Oliver Sacks suffered from these (major visual aura) in childhood.

    I used to get migraines a lot, and have had a couple of ocular migraines – no pain, but the visual aura was NOT fun. I now understand the term “fortification illusions,” however. Visual auras can be scary, and are annoying at the very least. I hope this gets resolved ok, for all of your sakes.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Wilson of course later denied that he came right out and said “unsubmissive women deserve to be raped,” but that was exactly what he was getting at.

    Alt 1) “I didn’t use Those Exact Words, SO…”
    (Wipe mouth and announce “I Have Not Sinned”, plus shift blame to YOU for “Putting Words in MY Mouth” — “PERSECUTION!!!”)

    Alt 2) “As of now, IT NEVER HAPPENED.”
    (doubleplusungood ref doubleplusunpersons, doubleplusunevents. L! L! B! B!)


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    John wrote:

    [1] Riffing on the end of the movie “The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance”

    “When legend and reality conflict, Print the Legend.”


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    @ okrapod:
    I agree completely re. your opening graph. Unfortunately, too many so-called “hunters” around here shoot to kill and, in many cases, blow things to bits. There was a *live* pigeon shoot some distance south of here that drew people from all over. It was finally banned, about 20 years ago.

    I like venison, and my state’s population needs to be thinned out pretty often in order to ensure adequate winter browse and the like. But killing just to kill is a whole other thing, and not, imo, a good one. At all.


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    @ Ken:
    So you’ve been ecposed to more US-style evangrlical/charismatic/Pentecostal practices than you’ve been willing to concede in the past.

    😉 (only partly j/k, though.)


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    Bookbolter wrote:

    Patterson has also had stained glass windows with his own likeness installed at the seminary. While he is still living and still president of the seminary. Wish I were kidding.

    Seeing the Chapel Tower from the south, it appears that they intentionally built it tall enough to replace the Rotunda Dome as the prominent landmark. No regard for the past.


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    @ Muff Potter:
    Oh, there are rednecks all over, not just in the South. Example: where i live now, although by no means are all the good country folk rednecks.


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    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    In the US, the Democrats and Republicans have gradually reversed positions on many issues over the past generations. Democrats used to be the more conservative party.

    And until Nixon’s Southern Strategy in 1968 (capitalizing on the White South’s reaction to the Civil Rights Act), the Solid South was Solid DEMOCRAT. (Lincoln was Republican, so…)

    * All those Klansmen below Mason-Dixon voted DEMOCRAT. Specifically, a subset of Democrat called “Dixiecrat”.
    * Dixiecrat machines enforced Jim Crow.
    * Democrat Woodrow Wilson was the most white supremacist president since Andrew Johnson, giving a Presidential endorsement to Birth of a Nation and making Federal Civil Service “Whites Only” by Executive Order. (Between Reconstuction and this, Federal Civil Service was one of the few ways blacks could rise above stoop labor into white-collar and service jobs such as the Post Office; Civil Service examinations were relatively color-blind for the time. Then cane the Executive Order.)


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    FW Rez wrote:

    Bookbolter wrote:

    Patterson has also had stained glass windows with his own likeness installed at the seminary. While he is still living and still president of the seminary. Wish I were kidding.

    Seeing the Chapel Tower from the south, it appears that they intentionally built it tall enough to replace the Rotunda Dome as the prominent landmark. No regard for the past.

    Like Sauron raising Barad-Dur to be higher than the towers of the Valar in Valinor.


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    @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    That mainly happened in England, and it really was hideous, what they fid to those women.


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    @ numo:

    Thanks, numo. Me too.


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    @ Ken:
    ??? You’re not conversant with the history of womens’ suffrage in the UK? Back in the 70s, there was even a TV miniseries about the Pankhursts, “Shoulder to Shoulder,” which was aired over here by PBS.

    Really, I’m kind of … stunned.


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    @ Ken:
    A lot of the protesters were aristocrats and upper middle class women, btw.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    It’s a title Christianity Today chose to use for her. Not the best editorial decision


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    @ okrapod:
    It has to be awfully hard for you, being both grandma and doc.

    I found O. Sacks’ book on migraines around the time i 1st started getting them. It was both fascinating and reassuring for me, but then, i never got the whole dhebang (auras, nausea), only pain and sensitivity to light and sound. Used to wear sunglasses indoors, during.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Democrat Woodrow Wilson was the most white supremacist president since Andrew Johnson, giving a Presidential endorsement to Birth of a Nation and making Federal Civil Service “Whites Only” by Executive Order. (Between Reconstuction and this, Federal Civil Service was one of the few ways blacks could rise above stoop labor into white-collar and service jobs such as the Post Office; Civil Service examinations were relatively color-blind for the time. Then cane the Executive Order.)

    Wasn’t he the one who also sent the flower of American youth to France in 1917 to fight and die for the interests of wealthy European blue-bloods?


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    John wrote:

    I’m going to do something I try and avoid and stick a comment into the thread. As far as I know this is an Urban Legend.

    Apologies to all. My bad. I should have fact checked. Please feel free to edit out the last paragraph.

    MOD: Actually I want to leave it in so people will know the truth about this “fact”. I’m not trying to beat up on you but this urban legend has “legs”.


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    Tim wrote:

    It’s a title Christianity Today chose to use for her. Not the best editorial decision

    Also used in the first line of her bio on SWBTS.edu “The First Lady Dorothy Kelley Patterson serves as professor of theology in women’s studies at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.”


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    FW Rez wrote:

    professor of theology in women’s studies at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

    Such foolishness. There is not enough in the bible that is specific theology relating to women only to make it a whole separate subset of theology. You would have to make up stuff for it to even be a one semester hour credit course, and then only if you padded the course with extraneous issues.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Democrat Woodrow Wilson was the most white supremacist president since Andrew Johnson, giving a Presidential endorsement to Birth of a Nation and making Federal Civil Service “Whites Only” by Executive Order. (Between Reconstuction and this, Federal Civil Service was one of the few ways blacks could rise above stoop labor into white-collar and service jobs such as the Post Office; Civil Service examinations were relatively color-blind for the time. Then cane the Executive Order.)

    Wasn’t he the one who also sent the flower of American youth to France in 1917 to fight and die for the interests of wealthy European blue-bloods?

    And had an “independent” goon squad called the American Patriotic Association acting as a sanctioned press gang to make sure those flowers got drafted and sent to the trenches. And beat up on Germans in America. All exempt from the draft themselves because of their vital contribution to the war effort. With full Plausible Deniability.

    But then, I know from experience that Intellectual Pacifist types can have one helluva Dark Side.


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    Here’s a howler:

    http://swbts.edu/news/releases/southwestern-inaugurates-installs-first-ever-chair-women%E2%80%99s-studies

    “During chapel, Sept. 16, [2015,] Southwestern Seminary inaugurated the Dorothy Kelley Patterson Chair of Women’s Studies, the first such academic chair in the evangelical world. Named in honor of First Lady of Southwestern Dorothy Patterson, the chair was endowed by her late parents, Charles and Doris Kelley…”


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And Cape Buffalo is considered one of the most dangerous game…

    Indeed; I chose that example deliberately! Ten lions and a thousand antelope is a panicked stampede; ten lions and half a dozen cape buffalo is a tense stand-off.

    One cape buffalo and a preacher with no firearm… is a race for the land rover.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Democrat Woodrow Wilson was the most white supremacist president since Andrew Johnson, giving a Presidential endorsement to Birth of a Nation and making Federal Civil Service “Whites Only” by Executive Order. (Between Reconstuction and this, Federal Civil Service was one of the few ways blacks could rise above stoop labor into white-collar and service jobs such as the Post Office; Civil Service examinations were relatively color-blind for the time. Then cane the Executive Order.)

    Goodness! I feel like my American history education was sorely lacking. Maybe because I grew up overseas . . .


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    Let me be clear, btw: as a human being and a follower of Jesus, I do not wish to see anyone – whatever colour their neck might be – pitted against a cape buffalo. Though I don’t like them shooting one for sport either.


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    I am appalled that the SWBTS story above makes this claim:

    “Patterson was a member of the founding group of the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (she was the only woman in the founding group)”

    What about Susan Foh?:

    http://cbmw.org/about/history/

    “CBMW has been in operation since 1987, when a meeting in Dallas, Texas, brought together a number of evangelical leaders and scholars, including John Piper, Wayne Grudem, Wayne House, Dorothy Patterson, James Borland, Susan Foh, and Ken Sarles.”

    Why would Mrs. Paige Patterson allow the other founding mother of complementarianism to be ‘disappeared’ like that?


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    Jerome wrote:

    the chair was endowed by her late parents, Charles and Doris Kelley…

    So Charles and Betty bought their baby girl a place in history, only I suppose because Paige insisted, like Dorothy said he insisted she continue her education when she did not want to. Well, thanks be it was not tithe money that did that.


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    @ okrapod:

    Oops, Doris.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
    In the US, the Democrats and Republicans have gradually reversed positions on many issues over the past generations. Democrats used to be the more conservative party.
    And until Nixon’s Southern Strategy in 1968 (capitalizing on the White South’s reaction to the Civil Rights Act), the Solid South was Solid DEMOCRAT. (Lincoln was Republican, so…)
    * All those Klansmen below Mason-Dixon voted DEMOCRAT. Specifically, a subset of Democrat called “Dixiecrat”.
    * Dixiecrat machines enforced Jim Crow.
    * Democrat Woodrow Wilson was the most white supremacist president since Andrew Johnson, giving a Presidential endorsement to Birth of a Nation and making Federal Civil Service “Whites Only” by Executive Order. (Between Reconstuction and this, Federal Civil Service was one of the few ways blacks could rise above stoop labor into white-collar and service jobs such as the Post Office; Civil Service examinations were relatively color-blind for the time. Then cane the Executive Order.)

    Until this election cycle,(2016) most local and still many elected county officials ( Sheriff, Constables, Tax Collector, County Clerk, County Commissioners) have run as Democrats here in East Texas.( many switched this past Fall, others remain Democrats.) They would be called the old ” Blue Dog” Democrats. I am pretty sure on a statewide and national level, these same ” Democrats” vote GOP.


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    FW Rez wrote:

    women’s studies

    ironing and mopping?


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    @ okrapod:
    Okrapod, you may want to make some calls and make sure no one has stolen your identity. I received a letter about a month ago about a huge gov.identity breach.


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    Daisy from 1:46 pm. Of course he’s always defending himself because he can’t seem to keep his mouth shut or fingers off the keyboard when the subject of women comes up. The man is completely lacking in humility when it comes to his blog and never misses the opportunity to use colorful language and phrases no matter what the topic, even when it is inappropriate. To me he comes off as just trying to defeat other people with his vocabulary and ability to argue with people online. It’s no surprise also that he’s in the same camp as those who will do whatever they can to keep women down in church and life to the exclusion of all other issues.


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    nmgirl wrote:

    ironing and mopping?

    The SWBTS offers a certificate in women’s ministry (that would be ministry to women) and they offer a concentration in homemaking for a bachelors in humanities, I think they called it. The homemaking concentration is like the old time home ec courses with enough hours for what might be called a minor elsewhere. Sewing, child care, nutrition and such as well as several courses which look like CBMW stuff.


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    @ okrapod:

    My point is, how is sewing or nutrition or how to witness to women actual theology? It is home ec and evangelism, not theology.


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    numo wrote:

    Nancy, i have a pet rabbit. I literally cannot talk about this.

    Understood.
    I have had pet pigs and pet chickens. My daughter has had pet rabbits.
    Being a farm girl, I learned to compartmentalize at a very young age. I know that most people are not raised in an evironment that encourages the sort of disconnect that I have there.


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    @ Nancy2:

    I am not going to try to explain this any more, but thanks for the feed back.


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    okrapod wrote:

    @ okrapod:
    My point is, how is sewing or nutrition or how to witness to women actual theology? It is home ec and evangelism, not theology.

    Well, doesn’t every good preacher man need a woman that can bring covered dishes to church, sew up the seat of his pants, and get the mustard stains out of his neckties? And the wives of the young whippersnappers need an older woman to teach them how it’s done. I guess they should call it manology.


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    okrapod wrote:

    I am not going to try to explain this any more, but thanks for the feed back.

    Sorry, I went back and re-read. You are speaking from the professional end – not the patient end.


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    The Pattersons are fans of Gothardism. In his 2014 addendum at the end of this posting of an article he originally wrote in 1976 ( http://www.recoveringgrace.org/media/Theology-of-BG-by-Patterson-1976rev5-15-14.pdf ), Paige Patterson says that the content of Bill Gothard’s seminars was “generally correct.” Dorothy Patterson has invited Michelle Duggar to speak at the seminary.

    Here is a summary of Gothard’s teachings that tell us abused women and children are not victims: http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/04/there-is-no-victim-a-survey-of-iblp-literature-on-sexual-assault-and-abuse/ In fact, the “abuse” is usually their fault.

    Welcome to the cult, Drs. Patterson. Gothard’s IBLP needs new board members, if you would like to make your support even more direct.


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    numo wrote:

    @ okrapod:
    Oof. Again. The late Oliver Sacks suffered from these (major visual aura) in childhood.
    I used to get migraines a lot, and have had a couple of ocular migraines – no pain, but the visual aura was NOT fun. I now understand the term “fortification illusions,” however. Visual auras can be scary, and are annoying at the very least. I hope this gets resolved ok, for all of your sakes.

    I also have had about 10 (in my lifetime) what are called ‘silent migraines’ – I either get dancing tinsel in the corner of my vision, or missing spots in what I’m looking at. In the worst one I lost the entire centre of my vision – but no pain, & just sleep it off. Dr days it’s a ‘genuine vascular event’, whatever that means, & it does mean I can’t take certain meds. Okrapod: that sounds just awful, I know how I feel when I see my aura start, even when I know it’s likely of short duration. I also hope this can be sorted out soon somehow.


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    @ okrapod:
    BRILLIANT!!!


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    @ Deb:
    Yes, Dr. Mohler learned the strategy well! He has successfully planted New Calvinist leaders at the majority of SBC entities … seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, and ethics commission. Most have a direct link to Dr. Mohler (former pastor, former executive assistant, staff at Southern seminary, etc.). All of this was done through a carefully executed stealth takeover of the largest denomination in America … without hardly a whimper from SBC’s millions of non-Calvinist members! The New Calvinist takeover is the latest in a string of theo-political shifts over several decades within SBC. An old saint told me years ago “Southern Baptists are always fighting about something!”

    As a 60+ year Southern Baptist, it grieves me to see a once-great evangelistic Body of Christ fall in this manner … through the schemes of men. While local church autonomy will keep Calvinism at bay for a while, a younger reformed membership will lead to a generational shift in SBC belief and practice eventually. I’m not sure anything can be done about it at this point; intercession by millions in the pew could right the ship, but apathy (nearing apostasy) seems to have settled in.


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    Max wrote:

    a younger reformed membership will lead to a generational shift in SBC belief and practice eventually. I’m not sure anything can be done about it at this point; intercession by millions in the pew could right the ship, but apathy (nearing apostasy) seems to have settled in.

    I believe that such a large majority of the pew sitters are clueless as to what is happening.


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    FW Rez wrote:

    First Lady Dorothy Kelley Patterson

    Don’t they know that Jesus said it’s the worldly types who lord it over others?


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    @ Nancy2:
    I hear you. I’m a town girl, but grew up in (and now live in) a farming area. But I can’t really compartmentalize, not the way farmers can.

    I want some pet pygmy goats, too…


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    @ Beakerj:
    Yeah, the 1st ocular migraine I had featured multicolored things (fortification illusions) that looked like castel battlements, but in one eye only, and only part of it. The second one went from bright blue-white fortification illusions to an ultrabright blue-white spot that messed with my vision for a good while. I went to the ER for that, since it was possible that I had had a stroke. Thankfully, not. None since then, and I hope never again!


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    @ Nancy2:
    Both of my bunnies (1 no longer on this planet) have lived indoors with me, used a litterbox faithfully (spayed/neutered) and were/are very intelligent and wonderful companions. But getting to know them is very different than becoming acquainted with a dog or cat. For one thing, you have to spend a lot of time on the floor, because they’re ground dwellers. Second, you have to learn to respect their innate prey animal instincts and just learn how to be around them. They will bond with humans, given love, time and patience. And they are very, very mischievous and cheeky! I think a sense of humor is a requirement on the part of the humans who have them, because if you’re lacking in that department, you’re not going to be able to relate to them.

    Btw, I like the idea of pet pigs, sheep, chickens, etc. Am also very much a horse lover, and in many ways (biological and temperamental), rabbits are like tiny racehorses. Seriously. I’m much too “old” to go back to riding, but I get my fix with the buns. (Wish I could volunteer for the rescue where I adopted them, but it’s too far away to be practical…)


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    Jerome wrote:

    Women’s Studies

    This in itself is such a terrible, tasteless joke. It has nothing to do with actual women’s studies.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Max wrote:
    a younger reformed membership will lead to a generational shift in SBC belief and practice eventually. I’m not sure anything can be done about it at this point; intercession by millions in the pew could right the ship, but apathy (nearing apostasy) seems to have settled in.
    I believe that such a large majority of the pew sitters are clueless as to what is happening.

    And many…well, they no longer care. And their kids, grandkids, no longer even attend….the SBC will become just another of the ” also rans” in the denominational world…


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    numo wrote:

    Am also very much a horse lover,

    Me, too! I grew up around horses, mules, and ponies. Use to have some of my own. Rode a lot – anything I could catch. My daughter still has a black and white paint American Saddle Horse that was born on our farm. She’s (the horse) a spoiled mess.
    My husband and I used to have 2 Pygmy goats, too. We tried to keep them in a 3 acre pen with a 6 foot high fence. A goat would be on one side of the fence, I would blink, and POOF – the goat would be on the other side of the fence! If you get Pygmy goats, they will need a very high fence, and you need to get young ones, so they will be easier to train!


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    @ Patriciamc:

    “the MRAs are commenting over at Spiritual Sounding Board. Julie Ann will have to spray down her site with Lysol.”
    ++++++++++++++

    sigh… claiming their territory, I see. (psssss “Mine.” psssss “Mine.”)


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    I believe that such a large majority of the pew sitters are clueless as to what is happening.

    Uninformed/misinformed is one thing … being willingly ignorant is another! Most SBC churchgoers are, well, churchgoers. Easy pickins’ for New Calvinism. I actually had a New Calvinist leader in our State tell me that the SBC pew is theologically clueless.


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    @ Daisy:

    “…..Benny Hinn…… his private jet…… tropical places…..”
    +++++++++++++++

    can’t WAIT for the day when the ‘Christian’ fad is to live simply. giving surplus away.

    even if it’s only a fad and not a matter of conscience.


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    K.D. wrote:

    they no longer care

    Apathy is a sin when it comes to things of God.


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    Max wrote:

    Uninformed/misinformed is one thing … being willingly ignorant is another! Most SBC churchgoers are, well, churchgoers. Easy pickins’ for New Calvinism. I actually had a New Calvinist leader in our State tell me that the SBC pew is theologically clueless.

    I am far from being a theologian, but I have studied. The attitudes of certain men in our last 2 churches combined with the way my husband has behaved towards me is why I searched for and found TWW and Wade, etc.


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    @ Jack:

    A home-made cherry pie for Jack!


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    @ Nancy2:
    I wish there were more like you Nancy2 who would study, discern, and search for truth. The 21st century church is full of folks who don’t.


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    When a movement attracts way more than its share of despicable human beings as ‘leaders’ maybe there’s something wrong with the movement, but that’s just me


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    elastigirl wrote:

    can’t WAIT for the day when the ‘Christian’ fad is to live simply. giving surplus away.

    even if it’s only a fad and not a matter of conscience.

    Makes me think of John Lennon’s song Imagine:

    You may say I’m a dreamer
    But I’m not the only one…


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    I actually meant to post this to this thread but messed up and posted it to the last one:

    “CBS News 5 Phoenix Reports on Mark Driscoll’s Mars Hill Past” – on Warren Throckmorton’s blog

    From there, I found a link to Driscoll’s new Trinity Church site. Under the “Love One Another” section (from the who we are page,
    http://thetrinitychurch.com/who-we-are/ ):

    Jesus tells us to “Love one another” and at The Trinity Church we aspire to do that.

    Our prayer is that the following will serve as a guide and encouragement to the kind of family we want to become at The Trinity Church.

    …Loving relationships are the mark of good theology
    …Build people up, don’t beat people up

    Yes, that is a Mark Driscoll site. The guy who used to beat people up, not build them up.
    I’d also have to say based on what I read his relationships with most people are built on bullying, not loving them.


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    Max wrote:

    @ Nancy2:
    I wish there were more like you Nancy2 who would study, discern, and search for truth. The 21st century church is full of folks who don’t.

    Thanks, Max! I still have a long way to go. There are a lot of smart commenters (you are among them) on TWW who make me think and question. I’m so thankful Dee and Deb and for the folks on here, as well as the Burlesons. ….. Eagle, Nate ……


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    @ elastigirl:

    that would be, marking their territory.

    the word is mark.


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    Mara wrote:

    I have never, ever believed that this actually happened.

    Ditto. The bullsh*t detector is going off.


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    numo wrote:

    Back in the 70s, there was even a TV miniseries about the Pankhursts, “Shoulder to Shoulder,” which was aired over here by PBS.

    I saw that as a child. It was excellent – and shocking.


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    Yup, that big game seminar/banquet/whatever is really Christ like!! If they like to go after animals, good for them, but why bring the seminary into it?…


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    JeffT wrote:

    When a movement attracts way more than its share of despicable human beings as ‘leaders’ maybe there’s something wrong with the movement, but that’s just me

    I agree but I’m not quite sure on what we agree on. Definitely something wrong. Definitely attracts despicable people as leaders. There are estimates of 35% NPD in some denominations.

    Should it even be thought of as a movement? That smacks me as something political. It also reminds me of “Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds”. For me it is the delusion that we need a local king that belongs to a group of other nobles, referred to in polite company as pastors.


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    Eagle wrote:

    Since this church plant is in Mierel’s backyard of Phoenix. I am going to propose that The Wondering Eagle and Wartburg Watch provide ice cold bottled water that she can picket and protest! 🙂

    Believe me, it’s on the agenda. With my luck, his first services will be on the hottest day of summer. But I’ll be ready.


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    K.D. wrote:

    ( don’t knock it until you try it, in East Texas, many of us grew up eating squirrel….and a real treat is a squirrel liver sandwich, with mustard…..okay, I’ve grossed out many readers.)

    My late father was horrified to hear that Mike Huckabee cooked squirrel on the element of a popcorn popper when the latter was in college. My dad thought that was a horrible way to treat a yummy squirrel. As he said, “Squirrel is good eatin’.”


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Democrat Woodrow Wilson was the most white supremacist president since Andrew Johnson, giving a Presidential endorsement to Birth of a Nation and making Federal Civil Service “Whites Only” by Executive Order. (Between Reconstuction and this, Federal Civil Service was one of the few ways blacks could rise above stoop labor into white-collar and service jobs such as the Post Office; Civil Service examinations were relatively color-blind for the time. Then cane the Executive Order.)

    You know, there was (and probably still is) a statue of Woodrow Wilson at my alma mater, the University of Texas at Austin. I’d walk by and I couldn’t figure out why on earth he was there, because yeah, he’d been president, but we didn’t have statues of any other president besides George Washington.

    Fast forward three decades and I figured out from Wilson’s history as described (e.g., his executive order) and the placement of the statue (near Robert E. Lee) and I’m pretty sure this was a coded in your face white supremacist gesture on the part of the powers that be at UT. Unlike the Lee and Jeff Davis statues, Wilson’s statue wasn’t removed this past fall. I wish it had been.


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    okrapod wrote:

    The SWBTS offers a certificate in women’s ministry (that would be ministry to women) and they offer a concentration in homemaking for a bachelors in humanities, I think they called it. The homemaking concentration is like the old time home ec courses with enough hours for what might be called a minor elsewhere. Sewing, child care, nutrition and such as well as several courses which look like CBMW stuff.

    As opposed to the bachelor degrees in nutrition and textiles which were taught at my alma mater and were quite science-based. I worked at a college bookstore and used to look at the books for those majors–they were not easy at all.


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    Since this blog covers controlling preachers (among other things), I thought you might be interested in this (first letter on the video):

    http://www1.cbn.com/video/bring-it-on-line-church

    This lady wrote to a Christian show asking for advice (her letter appears in the video on the page linked to above).

    She and her husband work as some kind of a preacher’s assistant, and the preacher expects them to carry stuff out to his car, heat up his car for him, buy stuff for him to stock his fridge (using their own money). This lady wants to know if this is okay, biblical, or right.

    Pat Robertson was correct in his reply to her, IMO (he told her no way, this guy is using you, it sounds like a cult, get out now), though he also sounded pretty grouchy about it.

    Anyway, how is that for an authoritarian, controlling preacher, demanding that a couple in his church act like maids or butlers and perform these little piddling duties for him?


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    mirele wrote:

    Believe me, it’s on the agenda. With my luck, his first services will be on the hottest day of summer. But I’ll be ready.

    Maybe you should pass out fliers a few days or weeks before MD’s first service! With photographs!


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    mirele wrote:

    okrapod wrote:
    The SWBTS offers a certificate in women’s ministry (that would be ministry to women) and they offer a concentration in homemaking for a bachelors in humanities, I think they called it. The homemaking concentration is like the old time home ec courses with enough hours for what might be called a minor elsewhere. Sewing, child care, nutrition and such as well as several courses which look like CBMW stuff.
    mirele wrote: As opposed to the bachelor degrees in nutrition and textiles which were taught at my alma mater and were quite science-based. I worked at a college bookstore and used to look at the books for those majors–they were not easy at all.

    Snort! These SWBTS homemaking courses should be core curriculum requirements for all of the single male students!


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    John (Mr. Curtain) wrote:

    People who’ve analysed the stats on this say there is NO correlation to the Super Bowl and domestic violence.

    I just saw something similar to this on The Christian Post:

    Does ‘Super Bowl Culture’ Really Increase Sex Trafficking?
    http://www.christianpost.com/news/does-super-bowl-culture-really-increase-sex-trafficking-156801/


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    When a crime has been committed, such as a husband beating his wife, you don’t have to go to the church first, you can call 911 and the police.
    When the crime is that someone has been sexually molested you don’t have to go to the church first you can call the police or 911.

    This is the way it is in the U.S. (Not sure about parts of Idaho) but no longer applies in Europe or Muslim countries, or parts of Michigan where Muslims are allowed to do what they do and are protected by the government. College campuses,the White House at times,the Catholic church,and now we learn the Protestant church has been practicing the sort of cover ups keeping sexual & crimes hidden.

    I am not surprised when I learn that someone who has been covering up for the abuser is guilty of the same thing.


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    @ Nancy2:
    Hah! That figures as far as pygmy goats. Mischievous and fast, like bunnies!

    I never had my own horse, but did get to ride a number of different horses and ponies that were boarded at my riding teacher’s stable, back when. It’s not feasible now, though i still like watching horses, ponies, anything equine.


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    BC wrote:

    When a crime has been committed, such as a husband beating his wife, you don’t have to go to the church first, you can call 911 and the police.

    Yes! I can’t begin to understand the women who call the church first. I guess they think the minister can change the man, but it really is stupid. Go to the police, not the church! I remember reading where Mark Driscoll told some women that if the husband was abusive, a woman should threaten to call the pastors. Even now, I’m still shocked at how idiotic that comment is.


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    @ Patriciamc:

    me, too. I’ve grown up in church. have attended 6 very different churches, each for many years. it has never, ever been the done thing to make church and its pastors your primary contact or primary resource. as if they are the gatekeepers of your life.

    when did this idea start? this is a weird development. it’s not normal.


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    FW Rez wrote:

    Bookbolter wrote:
    Patterson has also had stained glass windows with his own likeness installed at the seminary. While he is still living and still president of the seminary. Wish I were kidding.
    Seeing the Chapel Tower from the south, it appears that they intentionally built it tall enough to replace the Rotunda Dome as the prominent landmark. No regard for the past.

    It’s high art to compete with the Sistine Chapel. You know some of Catholic Popes came from feuding families. Maybe is if a Bishop of the Mohler variety becomes Pope of Southwestern Baptist Seminary he will build, with the help of his helpmate, a tower of his biblical manhood to compete with the chapel comc strips.


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    Marie wrote:

    Oh boy! Attended a church years ago that had PP as a speaker, the pastor was a huge fan of his (he also is a huge fan of Jerry Vines, that name is connected with the Gilyard case). Anyway, I remember well PP addressing the big game hunting thing, he said that he had faced a lot of criticism for this, but if we (the audience) were meat eaters and bought it from the local grocery store, we just hired mercenaries to do our killing. Yes, he said that!

    I look forward to the dinner where PP chows down on, say, a hippopotamus.
    Seriously, the man is delusional.


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    NJ wrote:

    Oh well, at least they don’t seem to have picked up the practice of honor killings.

    Yet. ;-(


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    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    I only learned about it some 3-ish years ago when some Men’s Right Activist supporters showed up to comment on Spiritual Sounding Board. Yes, they exist.

    How come they come to my blog? Oh, I know, because of the wife-spanking posts. Blech. This whole post makes me angry. Not a good day. One too many domestic violence stories. I want to curl up in a ball and cry when I think about how many women stay with their abusive spouses because the church tells them to submit. What a lonely place to be. Please be praying for a SSB reader who tonight left home with her kids to seek shelter. What a scary place to be.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    “the MRAs are commenting over at Spiritual Sounding Board. Julie Ann will have to spray down her site with Lysol.”

    They are in the SSB dog house permanently. Someone sent me the link to where they are whining about it. dumb little yip yips.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Patterson believes you must have 2-3 witnesses to accuse a pastor of sex crimes.

    I wonder if “accuse a pastor of sex crimes” might hit him a little too close to home.
    As in “Live Boy or Dead Woman” close to home.

    Same thing I was thinking…..


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    Help me out here. Complementarianism is harmful, no doubt about it. Submission doctrines definitely attract abusers and sociopathic minded men and women are not safe in in these conservative, evangelical environments. That's why I left the church and Christianity a few years ago, but these comp men are only teaching what the bible teaches. Bible doctrine is degrading to women, so I don't really get the egalitarian view of bible.

    Paige Patterson treated that battered woman poorly because 1 Peter treats battered women poorly. The bible stresses female submission to at least the husband, in EVERYTHING, so comp churches stress it. Everything means everything. It is a dangerous concept.

    Leviticus puts a dollar value on males and females and guess what? Men are more valuable! (this scripture really destroyed by self-image) I just feel women are better off without religion in their lives and married to secular men.


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    numo wrote:

    So you’ve been exposed to more US-style evangelical/charismatic/Pentecostal practices than you’ve been willing to concede in the past.

    That is actually an interesting comment. I would have to say that all – possibly without exception – of the dodgy over the top doctrines and practices I have encountered have come from the United States. The books and tapes/CD’s are imported, as well as the speakers. Specifically:

    Shepherding, discipleship, submission and covering. Inner healing. Way over the top deliverance ministry. Church growth philosophy. Off the wall charismatic practices and doctrines, the prosperity gospel, name it and claim it, the “faith” message.

    Many of these things have an element of truth in them, but have been taken to an extreme, whilst others are wholly false.

    Now I have to say to be fair that some of the best refutations of these weird doctrines have also come from American writers. There is some really excellent stuff produced. So it’s not all bad by any means, but I wonder if American evangelicals ought to ponder just why there is so much of this stuff in the American religious scene.

    This also doesn’t let British or other European evangelicals off the hook for a failure to discern these errors for themselves, or tending to be lukewarm about everything.


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    BC wrote:

    When a crime has been committed, such as a husband beating his wife, you don’t have to go to the church first, you can call 911 and the police.
    When the crime is that someone has been sexually molested you don’t have to go to the church first you can call the police or 911.
    This is the way it is in the U.S. (Not sure about parts of Idaho) but no longer applies in Europe or Muslim countries

    Erm, are you sure this is what you want to put forward as fact, the ‘no longer applies’ bit? Are you Donald Trump? I can assure you, here in the UK you can absolutely ring the Police first & foremost if someone has been assaulted, sexually or otherwise. If your post contains – as I’m suspicious it does – a hint of Britain being islamified & ordinary rule of law not applying, then you are absolutely misinformed, as well as making yourself look like a fool. Source: me. I have frequently worked with the Police, after ringing them, in cases of threatening behaviour, sexual assault or child sexual exploitation, as part of my job. I have meetings with a local Area Commander about this stuff.
    Can anyone tell this ridiculous assertion has vexed me greatly….


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    Beakerj wrote:

    BC wrote:

    When a crime has been committed, such as a husband beating his wife, you don’t have to go to the church first, you can call 911 and the police.
    When the crime is that someone has been sexually molested you don’t have to go to the church first you can call the police or 911.
    This is the way it is in the U.S. (Not sure about parts of Idaho) but no longer applies in Europe or Muslim countries

    Erm, are you sure this is what you want to put forward as fact, the ‘no longer applies’ bit? Are you Donald Trump? I can assure you, here in the UK you can absolutely ring the Police first & foremost if someone has been assaulted, sexually or otherwise. If your post contains – as I’m suspicious it does – a hint of Britain being islamified & ordinary rule of law not applying, then you are absolutely misinformed, as well as making yourself look like a fool. Source: me. I have frequently worked with the Police, after ringing them, in cases of threatening behaviour, sexual assault or child sexual exploitation, as part of my job. I have meetings with a local Area Commander about this stuff.
    Can anyone tell this ridiculous assertion has vexed me greatly….

    It vexes me you brought up Donald Trump. Was that necessary? I am not even a supporter but it is getting old. I happen to think he and Obama are from the same strain of narcissism. My British friends who are NOT Christians and not even right wing AT ALL are very concerned about the Islamization of Britian. And the legal sharia courts.

    Is Islam good for women?


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    @ Daisy:
    Regardless of whether he is good, bad or indifferent, RHE has just handed Douglas Wilson a propaganda coup. He has, of course, taken her comment apart. I don’t know what she was thinking – or rather not thinking.

    Not only so, but he basically says that if criticism of him in this fashion is so inept, then how can you trust criticism of other gospel coalition types such as C.J. Mahaney.

    Massive own goal from Evans’ point of view.


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    mirele wrote:

    As opposed to the bachelor degrees in nutrition and textiles which were taught at my alma mater and were quite science-based. I worked at a college bookstore and used to look at the books for those majors–they were not easy at all.

    Precisely. And those majors qualified people for exams or licensure for actual jobs in the real world, at least I know that the nutritionists had a marketable job skill and the paper to prove it. And the home ec major plus the ed courses could get you certified as a public school teacher in home ec (consumer science I think they now call it). But the seminaries and seminary colleges would see that women had job skills? Not so much, or maybe not at all.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    when did this idea start? this is a weird development. it’s not normal.

    It has always been around I am thinking. The people who eventually staggered over to my-father-the-lawyer to get some mess cleaned up were not infrequently those who had been to the preacher first. And that was almost a century ago. I am thinking that the idea has just spread but is not new.


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    Ken wrote:

    Not only so, but he basically says that if criticism of him in this fashion is so inept, then how can you trust criticism of other gospel coalition types such as C.J. Mahaney.

    Really, Ken? One bit of criticism might be off so all criticism about TGC and/or CJ Mahaney might be off? You can’t see that DW is trying to blow the smoke in another direction, mainly away from himself — the pastor who married a young woman to a pedophile and told them to be fruitful and multiply. Of which said couple now have a child who can not be with his father without outside supervision.

    And to be clear, I have not been reading up on the latest Evans/Wilson spat. It is your comment seeming to agree with Wilson’s illogical point that surprises me.


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    okrapod wrote:

    But the seminaries and seminary colleges would see that women had job skills? Not so much, or maybe not at all.

    But they are happy to take their tuition monies and give them (in reality) nothing in return


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    Beakerj wrote:

    If your post contains – as I’m suspicious it does – a hint of Britain being islamified & ordinary rule of law not applying, then you are absolutely misinformed, as well as making yourself look like a fool.

    At the risk of sounding foolish I do want to say that over here we get repeated stories in the media of problems with something like no-go-zones and sharia courts and this or that service man or police officer being attacked. Perhaps our media are off balance, but we do see that being reported.

    If you have other information I for one would like to hear the other side of the story.


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    okrapod wrote:

    mirele wrote:
    As opposed to the bachelor degrees in nutrition and textiles which were taught at my alma mater and were quite science-based. I worked at a college bookstore and used to look at the books for those majors–they were not easy at all.
    Precisely. And those majors qualified people for exams or licensure for actual jobs in the real world, at least I know that the nutritionists had a marketable job skill and the paper to prove it. And the home ec major plus the ed courses could get you certified as a public school teacher in home ec (consumer science I think they now call it). But the seminaries and seminary colleges would see that women had job skills? Not so much, or maybe not at all.

    It was probably a propaganda tool to to certify what the seminary believes is the complementarian role of a woman. Women should stay at home and do women things and stay submissive. It also gave a visible platform for Dottie, as first First Lady of the seminary. It was intentionally controversial as is everything they do and say. They love to draw attention to themselves.


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    Bridget wrote:

    You can’t see that DW is trying to blow the smoke in another direction, mainly away from himself

    He might well be doing that, but RHE has handed him the means to do so. That’s the point I am getting at. She has given him the opportunity to sow doubt in the minds of gospel coalition fans that criticism of any or all of their heroes is actually unfounded or uninformed or biased.

    I wonder if her comment as it stands would enable him to sue for defamation of character if he chose to go that route.

    In reality you have to take everything on a case by case basis.

    In my opinion he also won the propaganda war on the Sitler issue in that far from just taking him to task on that particular issue, his critics were using this to bash every conceivable aspect of his theology and practice they didn’t agree with.


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    Ken wrote:

    numo wrote:
    So you’ve been exposed to more US-style evangelical/charismatic/Pentecostal practices than you’ve been willing to concede in the past.
    That is actually an interesting comment. I would have to say that all – possibly without exception – of the dodgy over the top doctrines and practices I have encountered have come from the United States. The books and tapes/CD’s are imported, as well as the speakers. Specifically:

    Perhaps since the USA has freedom of religion as a part of its founding principles, and has never had a state religion, nor the opposite – religion forbidden by the state, with all of this freedom comes a boatload of nonsense. If there should be serious persecution of Christians some day in the US, a lot of the nonsense would go away – fast. In Jesus ministry, when the going got rough, the crowds disappeared – again, fast. He was pretty much alone on the cross.


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    Off-topic.
    Sometimes, in the list of recent comments, we are all German or we are all Canadian or we are all Bristish or we are all from the U.S. I’m just waiting for us all to be Swahili or Korean or something. It might be fun.
    Is this some sort of diversity training or empathy promotion?
    (JK! Slinking back into my corner now.)


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    Ken wrote:

    That is actually an interesting comment. I would have to say that all – possibly without exception – of the dodgy over the top doctrines and practices I have encountered have come from the United States.

    Good golly, Ken. Do a refresher on Christian History. There is nothing new under the sun! The US is simply the new kid on the block.


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    Homemaking Certificate
    The purpose of the Homemaking Certificate program is to equip women to model the characteristics of a godly woman as outlined in Scripture by using their home for ministry to their families, churches, and communities. This is accomplished through instruction in homemaking skills and developing insights into home and family, while continuing to equip women to understand and engage the culture of today.

    Homemaking Concentration at the College at Southwestern
    The Homemaking Concentration prepares women to model the characteristics of a godly woman as outlined in Scripture. Students gain understanding of biblical homemaking and focus on personal vocational assessment. This concentration challenges women both intellectually and practically, equipping them to understand and engage today’s culture and impact women and families for Christ. The Homemaking Concentration is available within the Bachelor of Science in Biblical Studies and the Bachelor of Arts in Humanities in the College at Southwestern.

    The above is a copy/paste from SWBTS women’s program. Will somebody please explain this nonsense to me? Are women instructed by God to spread the Gospel through making pillowslip dresses, decorating cakes and setting tables for formal dinners? Are those abilities crucial to salvation? Is the ability of Christian women to spread the Gospel centered on their homemaking skills? Did Phoebe and Priscilla focus on setting the table properly for formal teas?
    Or, does Dottie think she just a holy, anointed, more Godly version of Jackie O. with a blessed rolling pin who feels it is her God-ordained duty to train younger women to follow in her footsteps?


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    Lydia wrote:

    It vexes me you brought up Donald Trump. Was that necessary? I am not even a supporter but it is getting old. I happen to think he and Obama are from the same strain of narcissism. My British friends who are NOT Christians and not even right wing AT ALL are very concerned about the Islamization of Britian. And the legal sharia courts.
    Is Islam good for women?

    Sorry to have vexed you Lydia but I brought up Trump as an example of someone who told out & out lies about the influence of Islam here in the UK. He talked of what are non-existent no-go areas in London, & basically said the whole of Birmingham was a no-go area. My issue with these is that those things are not true. They are false, & he was stirring up a lot of fear & Islamophobia with his lies. Lies vex me, as does anything that demonises many British Muslims who are not extremists & aren’t striving for sharia law here.
    I don’t think Islam is good for women & absolutely oppose sharia law being enforced here in any way. I’d be interested to know why your British friends are so alarmed. I’m 50 miles from London & it would take me a good while to track down a Muslim within a wide radius of where I am now.


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    Ken wrote:

    That is actually an interesting comment. I would have to say that all – possibly without exception – of the dodgy over the top doctrines and practices I have encountered have come from the United States. The books and tapes/CD’s are imported, as well as the speakers. Specifically:
    Shepherding, discipleship, submission and covering. Inner healing. Way over the top deliverance ministry. Church growth philosophy. Off the wall charismatic practices and doctrines, the prosperity gospel, name it and claim it, the “faith” message.

    You’d be a bit surprised at some “Christian” stuff that is being taugh in Africa right now. The second most wealthy pastor in the world, Chris Oyakhikome, is in Nigeria. He claims that he can cure HIV, and he preaches the absolute and unquestionable submission of women – God made woman to serve man.


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    @ okrapod:
    Hi Okrapod,

    Here’s some sources for you:
    Sharia courts: https://fullfact.org/law/uks-sharia-courts/

    Murder of Lee Rigby: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lee_Rigby

    Wider persepectives on terror & safety: http://www.theguardian.com/uk/woolwich-attack

    I think being American you have the huge privilege of rarely having attack son your own soil, which we, as a multiply invaded island, never have had. We are used to the fact that enemies, such as the IRA, can hit us where it hurts from time to time. I expect this factor alone makes it seem like any attack on persons here by Islamic extremists is a portent of doom.

    Militant Islam is of concern here, of course it is, but I think agenda’d reporting is heavily influencing what you are able to see. I bet no-one there reported on all the Muslims who took aid to those flooded out in the Lake District recently?


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    JYJames wrote:

    If there should be serious persecution of Christians some day in the US, a lot of the nonsense would go away – fast.

    Amen! The Church – the genuine one – has always been its best in times of persecution. As you note, “nonsense” has proliferated in the American church; even the weird and irreverent has found a pulpit in counterfeit church. If/when persecution comes to Christians in America, nonsense will flee. When the going got tough in the early church, multitudes headed for the hills. Those that remained paid the price for the cause of Christ to spread – the true Church in America may be asked to step up to that challenge again.


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    Bridget wrote:

    There is nothing new under the sun!

    But I’m not as old as the sun! I can look back over the last 40 years or so. And in that time I’ve seen charismania and the Ft Lauderdale stuff, and more lately the church growth through modern business management and marketing techniques approach. Amongst other things. Almost as though the church needed the latest religious fashion, always seeking something new.

    Now I know none of these things is actually new, but in my lifetime most of it has come across the Pond. I cringe when I hear of the likes of Hinn doing the rounds in eastern Europe. After decades of communism, that is the last thing they need. And I might add, they could also be wise not to look to the leadership of much of the church in western Europe, compromised as it is.


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    @ Beakerj:
    A report in December by the BBC highlighted the fact that the police had been so overwhelmed by domestic abuse calls that it had affected the speed and quality of their repose. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35093837
    The Metropolitan Police website states that if you call in a domestic abuse case, they will respond ” within 24hrs”; alternatively they suggest you pop into your local police station to discuss it. A fairly laid back approach I would say.
    As for the Islamisation of Britain and Donald Trump, it’s good to remember that he took some facts and amplified them on his trump-et to generate publicity. Nevertheless, as I’ve mentioned to Lydia before, there are over 90 sharia courts operating in the UK and they do not have the sanction of law behind them and to an extent they do not apply existing UK law to matters like domestic abuse. Recently, it was reported that some school exams in England are being moved to accommodate Ramadan falling on a particular date so that Muslim students aren’t put at a disadvantage. It begs the question as to non-Muslim students being inconvenienced. And as for no-go areas, the Gatestone Institute reported in February 2015 that there were such places in London and Birmingham and three national newspaper reported the same thing in December 2015. And lest anyone doubt that this is the case, you can google the Rochdale child abuse enquiry, and read how the police, council and social work all failed to take seriously and and investigate the grooming and sexual exploitation of young girls in that town by predominantly Asian men for fear of causing offence and being accused of being racist.


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    Repose should be response, although in the circumstances repose might be more accurate.


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    @ Beakerj:
    The group who participated in the flood relief programme were of the Ahmadiyya version of Islam.


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    @ Beakerj:
    I have an English friend who is in frequent contact with her brother (a businessman in England) who is not only horrified at the Islamisation of Britian/Sharia law no go areas) but also that he pays exteemly high taxes for the all the Muslims on the “Dole” (welfare) who have multiple wives with children. England talks about not paying for their multiple wives but then they are able to receive welfare for themselves. These women are genitally mutilated in England, little girls, and frightfully abused in many ways.
    I haven’t heard D.Trumps opinion on this.


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    BC wrote:

    When a crime has been committed, such as a husband beating his wife, you don’t have to go to the church first, you can call 911 and the police.

    Very good point.

    Most preachers / churches act as stumbling blocks to victims anyway, so I’m not sure why anyone would want to approach a preacher/ church rather than authorities or some other means of help.

    I just saw a web page about a week ago that had quotes from people who work at domestic violence shelters say something to the effect that churches are either hindrances to helping abused women or they are inept at this. The picture I got is that abused women are better off skipping going to their church for support altogether and making a bee-line for a DV shelter.

    I can’t that link I was thinking of, but I did find this one:
    Churches are Failing Domestic Violence Survivors
    http://groupthink.kinja.com/churches-are-failing-domestic-violence-survivors-1635611183

    Snippet:

    Second, male-led churches, in many cases, don’t seem to consider women that important. Instead of taking domestic violence seriously, they are instead dismissive of women who report being abused by their spouses.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Most preachers / churches act as stumbling blocks to victims anyway, so I’m not sure why anyone would want to approach a preacher/ church rather than authorities or some other means of help.

    Threat of Eternal Hell/being Left Behind?


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    Beakerj wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    It vexes me you brought up Donald Trump. Was that necessary? I am not even a supporter but it is getting old. I happen to think he and Obama are from the same strain of narcissism. My British friends who are NOT Christians and not even right wing AT ALL are very concerned about the Islamization of Britian. And the legal sharia courts.
    Is Islam good for women?

    Sorry to have vexed you Lydia but I brought up Trump as an example of someone who told out & out lies about the influence of Islam here in the UK. He talked of what are non-existent no-go areas in London, & basically said the whole of Birmingham was a no-go area. My issue with these is that those things are not true. They are false, & he was stirring up a lot of fear & Islamophobia with his lies. Lies vex me, as does anything that demonises many British Muslims who are not extremists & aren’t striving for sharia law here.
    I don’t think Islam is good for women & absolutely oppose sharia law being enforced here in any way. I’d be interested to know why your British friends are so alarmed. I’m 50 miles from London & it would take me a good while to track down a Muslim within a wide radius of where I am now.

    Beaker I have to ask: Are you a muslim? As to the Muslims helping during the flooding what I heard was they were a royal pain in a**, totally selfish, complaining about the food, wanting the housing that the flooded out Brits were getting etc. Muslim is not a charitable religion. The tithes they pay go for terrorist expenses.


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    This mentions Gothard, Rick Warren (his church mishandled at least one case of domestic violence), John MacArthur, Bruce Ware, Debi Pearl, James Dobson (of Focus on the Family):

    Biblical Battered Wife Syndrome: Christian Women and Domestic Violence
    http://religiondispatches.org/biblical-battered-wife-syndrome-christian-women-and-domestic-violence/

    [Andersen’s skull was nearly fractured by her pastor husband, she was also held hostage by him for about a day]

    Andersen was raised in the Southern Baptist Convention, where she heard an unremitting message of “submission, submission, submission.”

    She saw this continual focus reflected in her ex-husband’s denunciations, while he detained her, of women who wanted to “rule over men.”

    …In June 2007, professor of Christian theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Bruce Ware told a Texas church that women often bring abuse on themselves by refusing to submit.

    There is also a discussion on that page of how some churches have pretty condescending views of divorced people, even people who divorced over having been abused.

    One abused lady on that page said her Southern Baptist church kept sending her and her abusive husband to marriage counseling sessions so that “both sides of the story” could be heard.

    Does that not sound familiar? It seems like every time a victim steps forward, or goes to her church, or famous Christians comment on a troubled marriage publicly, they blather on about wanting “to hear both sides of the story.”

    As I’ve seen it stated many times, abuse is not about a relationship problem, abuse is an abuse problem.
    Both partners in an abusive relationship are not equally responsible, only one part (the abuser) is.

    That’s why a lot of literature I’ve seen actually advises the victim not to go into counseling with the abuser, it’s going to be a waste of time.

    From that page:

    After Moss finally divorced Gary [her very abusive husband], a pastor told her she should return to her father’s house so that she could be under the proper protection of male authority.

    Women are treated like perpetual toddlers under complementarianism.


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    Ken wrote:

    In my opinion he also won the propaganda war on the Sitler issue in that far from just taking him to task on that particular issue, his critics were using this to bash every conceivable aspect of his theology and practice they didn’t agree with.

    And DW sits back and smirks.
    “I. WIN.”


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    Mark wrote:

    Maybe is if a Bishop of the Mohler variety becomes Pope of Southwestern Baptist Seminary he will build, with the help of his helpmate, a tower of his biblical manhood to compete with the chapel comc strips.

    In the shape of a 300-foot (100-meter) erect phallus?


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    Julie Anne Smith wrote:

    elastigirl wrote:

    “the MRAs are commenting over at Spiritual Sounding Board. Julie Ann will have to spray down her site with Lysol.”

    They are in the SSB dog house permanently. Someone sent me the link to where they are whining about it. dumb little yip yips.

    More YAP! YAP!s than yip yips.
    (Ever seen a Chihuahua or Yorkie throwing his weight around? “ME BIG! ME MEAN!YAP! YAP! YAP! YAP! YAP! YAP!”)


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    @ Libby:
    I think egalitarian Christians do a pretty decent job of showing that complementarians take much of the Bible out of context and/or ignore other passages that contradict the complementarian view.

    As to you comment about women costing less in the Old Testament than men. I’m not completely sure why that is, or how to explain everything in the Old Testament.

    There is the Descriptive vs. Prescriptive aspect of it. Just because the Bible mentions that Billy Bob mugged his neighbor Joe in the book of Judges chapter 5, or whatever, does not mean God is groovy with people mugging each other.

    I think one of the keys to understanding God’s view towards women is to look to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ went against the sexist cultural grain of his day and time to teach women, talk to them, challenge them, and treat them with respect.

    Jesus often shocked his disciples and the religious leaders of the era by how (well) he treated women.


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    Daisy wrote:

    There is the Descriptive vs. Prescriptive aspect of it. Just because the Bible mentions that Billy Bob mugged his neighbor Joe in the book of Judges chapter 5, or whatever, does not mean God is groovy with people mugging each other.

    I wanted to expand on that.

    It’s kind of like reading your local newspaper.

    I saw a story on my local TV news / printed paper (and the online version of the local paper) a few months ago about a teen-aged boy who murdered his parents and a few siblings in their home.

    I do not infer from this reportage that the editors, journalists, or TV anchor man who reported it are accepting of people murdering their own families.

    The police mentioned in the stories were said to have shown up to the crime scene to investigate it. I doubt that any of the cops interviewed approve of the young man’s actions, either.

    That a local TV news show or paper reports on what happened – a crime having taken place – does not necessarily mean that the people reporting the story or everyone discussed in the story, approve of the crime themselves. I view the Old Testament in the same way.

    I think the OT, with its reports of murder and other sins, is meant to show how utterly vile people can be to each other. I don’t think God approves of people being horrible to each or, likes it.

    All or most of that nasty stuff you see in the OT is meant to show, I think, why the New Testament says humanity needed a savior.


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    Bookbolter wrote:

    Patterson has also had stained glass windows with his own likeness installed at the seminary. While he is still living and still president of the seminary. Wish I were kidding.

    I saw a photograph of the window. It does exist. The money spent in glorifying the Pattersons would likely have helped many of SWBTS’s students with their expenses as scholarship gifts, but no one could see that????
    That people like Patterson exist is not so surprising. That he is glorified and enriched by a denomination that has lost membership and status in the Christian community since he took over the SBC thirty-some years ago DOES suprise me. Fortunately, many Southern Baptists saw through him, especially when he treated Dr. Sheri Klouda so unjustly at SWBTS . . . they tried to help her, and they spoke up against how she was treated (these heroes include Wade Burleson whose sermons appear here on Sundays).
    What manner of ‘man’ abuses a woman and does it in the name of Our Lord? I ask this. I just don’t understand.


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    Ken wrote:

    That is actually an interesting comment. I would have to say that all – possibly without exception – of the dodgy over the top doctrines and practices I have encountered have come from the United States. The books and tapes/CD’s are imported, as well as the speakers.

    I cringe about every time I see American based TBN (Christian network) do these TV spots saying they are expanding coverage.

    In the last couple of years, they’ve done reports on how they have new TBN studios in Great Britain and other locations, and I’m pretty sure that these other nations are going to be fed the same swill we get in the United States on TBN.

    Meaning, most of the programming overseas will probably be Word of Faith / Prosperity Gospel stuff that we get in the States, that teaches viewers things like if they “sow a seed” (send money to the TV preacher), they will be healed of ‘X’ or ‘Y.’ That sort of thing.


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    @ Daisy:
    I think the article you linked to was very – and I almost hate to use the word – balanced.

    Who said being a Christian or being a pastor is easy? The pastors or churches have to try to maintain Christian ethics as, for example, taught by the apostle Paul on divorce, who was only following directly the teaching of Jesus himself, and applying it in real-life situations. There isn’t a great deal of room for manoevre on this.

    They have got to uphold the sanctity of marriage and rescue/help women who being abused whether verbally or physically. I thought Saddleback, of which I am not a great fan, seemed to be making a good faith attempt at this.

    If there is a common denominator in these links or posts or testimonies on this subject, it is becoming clear to me it is a vast over-emphasis on the word and practice of submission. This is either the result of blatant false teaching or misunderstanding or a combination of the two.


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    Could we get away from mentioning anything about politics? We have lots of difficult issues to discuss on this blog and adding politics will just add more controversy. Also, could we refrain from making generalized comments about particular people groups.


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    @ Nancy2:
    Well, I had been debating about jumping in here–but this pushed me over the edge!! In my Oregon Conservative Baptist Church about 30 years ago(good Grief!), we finally had our first Women’s Seminar. I had been reading about other churches doing this and I thought “now we’re cooking!!” but I soon found out that the little talks we could sign up for were about hospitality(yup, table settings etc.) and garnishes–you know, those little radish roses, etc(not that there is anything wrong with that!). I had been expecting something along the line for comforting the broken hearted, helping those in need, etc. Ha, ha, sob!!!


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    Ken wrote:

    He has, of course, taken her comment apart.

    This is Wilson’s SOP (standard operating procedure).

    Any and every time he gets taken to task for whatever obnoxious views or comments he makes on his blog, Wilson always retorts by making the topic not his obnoxious views but the critic.

    Wilson diverts the attention of people from him to whomever is pointing out how awful his opinions are.

    Wilson will charge the critic (whether it’s RHE or whomever else) of being dumb, or of lacking reading comprehension. Wilson will say that his critic completely misunderstood the points he was trying to make.


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    @ Libby:
    Let me see if I can answer your questions. Let’s start with complementarianism as being harmful. As I said at the beginning of this post, not all complementarians are abusive just like all those who work with kids are not pedophiles. However, just as institutions must have structures in place to prevent molestation, comp. theologians must put into place parameters to quickly spot abusers and punish them.

    Libby wrote:

    Leviticus puts a dollar value on males and females and guess what? Men are more valuable!

    Good for you, looking into the Old Testament and questioning what you read there. It is certainly not easy to figure this stuff out. Let me take a stab at this.

    This was a culture that had a hard scrabble life. Men were not generically more valuable then women in terms of spiritually. However, men were more valuable for their strength and ability to take on the hard tasks of providing for food and protection. That is most likely the reason for boys bringing in a higher value than girls. In today’s culture, that doesn’t make sense any longer. I could go on a bit more but perhaps this is enough to get my drift. What do you think?

    Libby wrote:

    1 Peter treats battered women poorly. The bible stresses female submission to at least the husband, in EVERYTHING, so comp churches stress it.

    Actually, the Bible rarely says anyone should submit in everything. For example, it says we should obey our government. However, if the government asks me, as a nurse, to assist with an abortion and I am opposed to doing so, I do not have to submit to that.

    The same goes for a woman If the man beats her, asks her to do illegal things, etc. the woman is not obligated to submit to the man in that instance. Although I am not a complementarian, I want to represent them in fair manner. Does this make sense?


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    The above is a copy/paste from SWBTS women’s program. Will somebody please explain this nonsense to me?
    Are women instructed by God to spread the Gospel through making pillowslip dresses, decorating cakes and setting tables for formal dinners?
    Are those abilities crucial to salvation? Is the ability of Christian women to spread the Gospel centered on their homemaking skills?

    On a related note:

    On Being a Woman After God’s Own Heart – Biblical womanhood, or cultural womanhood?
    http://www.cbeinternational.org/resources/article/being-woman-after-gods-own-heart


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    Ken wrote:

    On a more serious note, isn’t the three witnesses requirement for charges against elders/vicars/ministers a protection against genuine misunderstandings or untrue rumour-mongering or accusations by church members who may have had a home truth or two told to them that they didn’t want to hear?

    The question is whether the instruction is that 2 or 3 witness have to have been witnesses of the ‘whatever’ – or if there have to be 2 or 3 witnesses gathered together when an accusation of the ‘whatever’ is made.

    I’ve seen commentaries that go both ways.

    Additionally, I don’t believe that the instruction in Timothy has anything to do with addressing possible *criminal* activity.

    And finally, why is the 2 or 3 witnesses aspect focused upon and NEVER the next verse?

    “As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.”

    We’ve seen case after case where dozens (if not outright hundreds) of people are giving the SAME testimony of abuse by specific leaders, well beyond the ‘2 or 3 witnesses’ aspect.

    And we discover that not only do these leaders seldom, if ever, actually apologize, repent and CHANGE – they have placed themselves in such an exalted position, that there is no one around or near them, that CAN rebuke them publicly.

    Which is in itself a blaring indication that there is something horrendously off about the current structure of leadership.


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    @ Beakerj:

    We do see stuff in the news here about some areas being so hostile towards police due to large numbers of Muslim citizens that the police are hesitant to enter those areas.

    This is just one of the last news reports I remember seeing (the refugees in question are Muslims)

    Police officers flee angry mob in Swedish refugee center through back door
    https://www.rt.com/news/330180-police-violent-refugees-sweden/

    A police patrol of 10 officers was forced to flee a refugee center in Sweden after being surrounded by a mob of violent migrants. Law enforcement officials had arrived to relocate a 10-year-old boy after reports of his repeated rape at the facility.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Law enforcement officials had arrived to relocate a 10-year-old boy after reports of his repeated rape at the facility.

    The “Appeal of the Beardless” — Islamic for Same-Sex Pedophilia.
    Strong Penetrator, Weak Penetrated.


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    dee wrote:

    Could we get away from mentioning anything about politics?

    I promise I won’t say a dang thing politics wise.
    Honest Injun!!!


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    dee wrote:

    Here is a link to that lovely stained gals window.

    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2014/05/when-power-is-absolute-what-cant-he-do.html

    And an excerpt from that link:

    Before we Southern Baptists criticize our Roman Catholic friends again, we should remember we have a tendency to canonize saints faster than the they do. It’s never smart to make your heroes iconic and place them in stained glass before they are dead.

    “Caesar Augustus wasn’t proclaimed a god until after he was dead. Caligula makes himself a god while he is still alive to enjoy it.”
    — Alistair Cooke, introduction to an episode of the BBC’s I, Claudius on PBS Masterpiece Theatre


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Threat of Eternal Hell/being Left Behind?

    I suspect the ones who approach churches for help first are naive.

    And/or they want to solve their problem in a way that will be “biblical” and pleasing to God, so they seek the counsel or church people, thinking that surely church people will give them “godly” counsel.

    I had a somewhat similar situation with the passing of a family member. I thought that other Christians, even ones at some local churches, would give me the encouragement I needed, but they gave me criticism or platitudes.

    I had to learn the hard way that just because someone is in a church, or goes by the label “Christian,” does not mean you can rely on them, get practical help from them, or that they are empathetic.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Any and every time he gets taken to task for whatever obnoxious views or comments he makes on his blog, Wilson always retorts by making the topic not his obnoxious views but the critic.
    Wilson diverts the attention of people from him to whomever is pointing out how awful his opinions are.

    “WHAT’S YOUR PROBLEM, MAN???? YOU’RE THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM!!!!!”

    PROVEN(TM) by parsing every jot and tittle under an electron microscope, looking for the one microscopic flaw to go “AHA! PROOF!”

    Turning everything into Semantic Analysis to shift the venue to where HE has the home-field advantage.

    (Why, yes, I HAVE had run-ins with Intellectual Snobs and Super Geniuses(TM) on the Net. Including a former Berkeley Debating Team type. How ever could you tell?)


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    @ Ken:

    I think it goes deeper than that.

    Gender comp at its root, no matter how well intentioned, no matter how nicely men who believe in it treats women, sends false messages to and about women.

    You cannot tell 50% of the population that they are equal – but barred from X or Y, or that they are lacking in Z, and then expect anyone and everyone to really believe that they are “equal in worth.”

    Gender comp sends conflicting messages to and about women and treats them as though they are little children.

    It handicaps women, so if one is in an abusive marriage, she is conditioned to think she MUST stay, or that she is at fault in some capacity.

    Further, her church will get into the mindset that the onus is on the woman to “save” the husband, the burden is on her to save the marriage.

    That one woman in the article (if my understanding is correct) is still trying to cling to the gender comp understanding of marriage (which is probably what you view as being a ‘balanced’ view), minus its ramifications that do lead to, perpetuate, or excuse abuse.
    She needs to chuck gender comp altogether, not try to ignore the parts she finds troubling.

    Gender comp at its core is sexist and bad, not just that it may be implemented incorrectly by some men.


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    @ Daisy:

    P.S. @ Ken.

    Also, you say that these problems exist due to too much emphasis being placed on submission, which I find a baffling position for you to take, because you have stated many times before that the Bible does not teach mutual submission in a marriage, but one-way, in the part of the wife.

    That one way view is in itself a wrong, or over- emphasis on submission that can and does lead to abuse, and some men use that mindset to justify why they are abusing their wives.


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    @ dee:
    I suppose SWBTS will eventually need to add a stained-glass window for Al Mohler. I doubt that they have his depiction there now. But, since Mohler was also a hero of the Conservative Resurgence, the next SWBTS President (destined to be a New Calvinist) will surely include him in the CR hall of fame.


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    @ dee:

    “Here is a link to that lovely stained gals window.”

    Was this maybe kind of what Jesus meant when he said guys who do this sort of stuff in the here and now are already paid in full?
    (They have their rewards now, they won’t be getting any in the afterlife)


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    @ BC:
    Wow.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Threat of Eternal Hell/being Left Behind?

    Him Goat! Him Goat! ===> (Muff Potter)


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    Growing up heavily involved in SBC churches and with a father in ministry, I was pretty sure I had seen the full cast of characters that are typically on parade whenever humans gather anywhere.

    But I’m very troubled by the absurd caricature of Christianity that’s being presented as normal, and even desirable, by the people who are running the seminaries and denominational entities. Big game hunting and taxidermy, ticky-tacky windows, college degree programs for “the little ladies”??? This is a cartoon, a sitcom where everybody laughs at the backwards buffoon!

    The tragedy lies in the true believer, the young man or woman who gives up everything and lives in poverty or near poverty for years in order to attend seminary and learn how to make a difference for people, and invest their lives in the kingdom of God, only to be fed this mess. Many of them emerge corrupted and useless, or worse: dangerous.

    Another tragedy is the poor soul who scrimps and saves to make an offering, and supports the whole process unwittingly. Ordinary folks are being played like a violin.

    My husband attended SEBTS for a while, trying to get a music degree. He’s a professional in a tech industry, but very talented musically, and felt like he could do some good by using his gifts to serve God and help people in worship. He spent many hours in study and practice. He gave up evenings, weekends, and even took a year to go full-time. The process is exhausting and expensive, and wasn’t helped by frequent policy changes.

    I worked in the library there, and could tell you some stories…anyway, the whole thing has left an awful taste in our mouths.

    There are many wonderful people there, both students and professors, but they aren’t the ones running the theatrical. We were naive. We assumed the seminary was about learning everything you could and sending out the best and brightest to be a light to the world. They will tell you that, but what we found was mostly a sham. And it breaks my heart to say it.


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    @ nancyjane:
    If churches (and seminaries) are going to limit women’s roles to kitchen detail, why not train the women and send them to work in homeless shelters? Why not teach and participate in the ins and outs of food and clothing drives for the disadvantaged in our communities? How about using the money they spend on “classroom supplies” to start and maintain a food pantry? How about using the ability to sew to repair used, donated clothing for disadvanted children? How about offering free classes, not to seminary wives, but to people in the community on preparing meals on a tight budget ……………???????? Stuff like that would be a much more powerful witness.
    What those classes do is nothing more than teach women to say, “Ha, look at me! Look what I can do! Aren’t you impressed?”
    And the money that is being wasted on the PP door prizes! Aaarrrrrrggghhhhh!


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    dee wrote:
    Here is a link to that lovely stained gals window.
    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2014/05/when-power-is-absolute-what-cant-he-do.html
    What’s next …….. Rosary beads? “Hail Paige ………”, “Hail Al …….”.

    That is disturbing. I’d suppose many of those same nicely-dressed, outwardly-righteous-looking Baptists probably drive by the local Catholic church and when they see the stained glass windows with Saint Peter, Mother Mary, etc. on them, they mutter “Those idolaters with their graven images are damned to hell.”

    Remarkable how blind and stupid folks can be.


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    @ Law Prof:

    Actually I never heard anybody object to stained glass windows, their own or anybody else’s. Statues, yes; windows, no. But I never heard anybody accuse the RCC of actual idolatry due to the statues, either, even though I heard an awful lot of anti-catholicism. Now, saying that hyperdoulia on the one hand and declaring Mary co-redemptrix on the other is was too over the line-that I have heard.


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    @ okrapod:
    Well, a lot of Catholics agree with you on the “over the line” stuff. 😉


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    @ okrapod:
    During the Reformation era, there were incidents in which mobs of people basically sacked churches, destroying stained glass window, defacing tombs, statues, wall paintings, etc., as well as looting – there were things that were made of precious metals that could be melted down, after all. There’s a German word that refers very specifically to these waves of mass destruction, but darned if i can remember it now – and i doubt i could spell it right if i did!


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    @ Libby:

    LOVE your unvarnished communication. getting right to the point.

    I feel the same as you. I thought Daisy’s and Dee’s responses were really good.

    where the bible is concerned, I hold on loosely (but drink deeply from Psalms). and focus on kindness & generosity of heart, and the fabulously practical reality of my power + Holy Spirit’s power in me = exponential process & product.

    Helps me to stay unentangled in wasteful emotion/energy drains that way.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Jesus tells us to “Love one another” and at The Trinity Church we aspire to do that.

    They “aspire to” love? I know it’s hard to love everybody, but this word choice suggests that they don’t love anybody.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    This is accomplished through instruction in homemaking skills and developing insights into home and family, while continuing to equip women to understand and engage the culture of today.

    Sounds like they will emerge with a degree in Neighbor Shaming.


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    okrapod wrote:

    hyperdoulia on the one hand and declaring Mary co-redemptrix

    Very much on topic, Dorothy Patterson as co-redemptrix.


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    @ Friend:
    From SWBTS (emphasis, mine):
    “The Leadership Certificate in Women’s Ministry can be acquired by completing 12 hours of course credit. This is accomplished by completing four 3-hour courses taught by Southwestern faculty and other experts in the field of women’s ministry. Courses are available online and in a traditional schedule format at the Fort Worth campus. It is possible to complete the program in two years. Courses may also be taken for credit in Southwestern’s master’s or baccalaureate programs.”

    People, this is one (3 hour) credit class per semester. In a normal college setting, this entire course load required for the certificate wouldn’t even qualify as “full time” for one 14-week semester! How serious can this really be?


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    @ BC:
    I don’t even know where to start to reply to you.@ Lowlandseer:
    Now your comment is worth answering. Yes the Police Force is underfunded, & yes there’s lots of domestic violence across all demographics. But the original point I answered was about the normal procedures of ringing Police being abandoned – they haven’t been. If you ring in an emergency, where you are in danger, you will get an emergency response still.
    Sharia courts do operate here, but they are in no danger of overturning our current legal system. Various communities may voluntarily abide by them, & I’m not sure the Orthodox Jews don’t also have something similar. I completely disagree with Sharia law & principles & if their recommendations break UK law I would always recommend reporting it. All I can do for oppressed women in communities such as these is to support Women’s Refuges & shelters so there is somewhere some may flee to. Honour-based violence & FGM are the foci of special training & Police intervention teams, & I could report these to specialist Teams if I came across them.
    ‘No-go zones’ are time limited situations normally, not genuine mini-principalities under permanent ‘other rule’, we have more issues with gang culture causing these occasionally.
    With Rochdale you’re on my home territory, figuratively speaking, that was a massively mishandled situation in which political correctness did indeed stop proper interventions being made. The perpetrators in that case were in the most part Asian, & probably Muslim, & a gargantuan part of the problem was their attitudes to vulnerable, mostly white, young women . That level of political correctness is being challenged hard, & new ways found of making it clear that even if abuse has racial or cultural aspects we must speak out. The 3 child sexual exploitation situations I have dealt with over the last 10 years were all white British males between 19 & 50+, vulnerable young women are the universal prey it seems & predatory males (it is mostly males) will go after them.
    What I’m trying to say is that while we have our issues, & bad stuff related to Islam definitely happens, you are stringing them together to make a meta-narrative that I’m not sure is accurate. Maybe there is a huge Muslim Menace & I should be sewing a hijab, but as things are played out on the ground, it doesn’t come over as you imply.
    Also the Asian community puts more in in taxes than they take out in benefits.

    And Daisy: that is a terrible situation. In Sweden.


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    Golly, I feel all alone and blushy after seeing I posted three comments in a row–as if I were standing in a crowded elevator talking to people, and I shut my eyes and they all got out, and I just kept talking… 🙂


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    Friend wrote:

    Golly, I feel all alone and blushy after seeing I posted three comments in a row–as if I were standing in a crowded elevator talking to people, and I shut my eyes and they all got out, and I just kept talking…

    Yep. Happens to us all da time on here.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Police officers flee angry mob in Swedish refugee center through back door
    https://www.rt.com/news/330180-police-violent-refugees-sweden/

    Please check your news sources. This comes from RT, which is an organ of Vladimir Putin and the Russian government. It is not an unbiased news source.

    Speaking of no-go zones, over the past month, we here in the Western US have had the takeover of the wildlife refuge in Oregon. During the takeover, federal employees (not just of the refuge, but of other federal agencies) were pretty much told not to go to work in Burns, Oregon, because of the fear that some alleged “patriots” might cause problems. And FBI agents were told to stay out of Kanab, Utah, today, because LaVoy Finicum’s funeral is going on.

    Those of us who have kept an eye on sovereign citizens (of which *some* of the “patriots” are a particular subgroup) are well aware that these people are far more dangerous and more numerous than radical Muslims to the average citizen. If you Google the biggest threat to law enforcement in the USA 2015, you will get story after story pointing out that the biggest threat to our police forces comes not from Muslim extremists, but from sovereign citizens. (I’d put in links, but if you’re interested, you’ll use Google.)


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    okrapod wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    Actually I never heard anybody object to stained glass windows, their own or anybody else’s. Statues, yes; windows, no. But I never heard anybody accuse the RCC of actual idolatry due to the statues, either, even though I heard an awful lot of anti-catholicism. Now, saying that hyperdoulia on the one hand and declaring Mary co-redemptrix on the other is was too over the line-that I have heard.

    I used to be SBC (in the mid 1980s, “before the crazies took over”, as a couple I know who both got their MDivs from SBTS in the 1980s say), and while I never heard anyone in the church I attended flat out say so, there was a prevailing attitude that Catholics were going to blow hell wide open and that one of the reasons was their idolatry and use of graven images, which I can only suppose would encompass statues as well as stained glass. Of course, that’s just my opinion of what they’d have likely said or thought.

    In any event, venerating living people in stained glass in a seminary or church is perfectly ridiculous, and quite possibly farther along the road to idolatry that venerating dead people in stained glass or statues.


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    Beakerj wrote:

    I think being American you have the huge privilege of rarely having attack son your own soil, which we, as a multiply invaded island, never have had. We are used to the fact that enemies, such as the IRA, can hit us where it hurts from time to time. I expect this factor alone makes it seem like any attack on persons here by Islamic extremists is a portent of doom.

    Well, I cannot determine who you refer to in the last sentence. Who is it that is reacting to ‘a portent of doom’ you or us. That said, and it does not particularly matter which you meant, I do think that you all have had two relatively recent, historically, differences from us. WW I and WW II were quite different experiences, though bad all around you had the brunt of it. And also you had empire, and dissolution of empire specifically, and I am wondering if your experiences with empire and its vastly different cultures may have given you a more tolerant? attitude toward some things that we might vigorously recoil against. I did not say that well, but I am thinking that this experience of dealing with ‘others’ would be vastly different if you (UK) went there as opposed to us who deal with ‘others’ mostly if they come here.

    Because I do hear a difference not just in details but a difference in attitude between us in what you are saying.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    I used to be SBC (in the mid 1980s, “before the crazies took over”

    I left SBC in the early 70s, but I am originally from a city with a heavy catholic population. At one point about one third of elementary kids were in catholic school, for example, IIRC. So there would be some difference in attitude perhaps. The anti-catholicism that I heard had to do with works salvation, purgatory, anti-clericalism, how wealthy the catholic church was, the marian dogmas and the pope, and the political involvement of the church (this was before the evangelicals tried to displace the catholics in politics). Then there was confession to a priest and their religious marriage laws and their opposition to birth control.

    But we admired their schools and their sexual rules regarding morality. But obviously there was no excuse for the catholic teens to be going to church dance parties on weekends, because dancing was a work of the devil and led to no good and that just goes to show you that all that other stuff which we objected to only leads to dancing and that ought to tell you something right there. Yes, those words.

    But my youth was not only before the crazies took over the SBC but also pre-vatican II, and I am thinking that is a real difference.


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    okrapod wrote:

    Because I do hear a difference not just in details but a difference in attitude between us in what you are saying

    Yes I think there is definitely a difference in attitude Okrapod. Maybe some of it comes from the guilt of our Colonial past where we were often far more destructive & voracious than any ethnic or religious minority here. Brits generally have been known as tolerant & our Asian immigrants (esp those fleeing Idi Amin I think) have really benefitted the British economy. I was delivered by an Indian Doctor, in Birmingham, which is my hometown. Maybe my Mum, as an Irish immigrant, was particularly tolerant…maybe it’s because I have so many Chinese and Hispanic people married into my family, & lots of ethnically mixed children that I’m tolerant.

    The portent of doom comment was about how things would be received Stateside. I remember the American friends in England reacting to 9/11 & it coming across quite clearly that they were shocked that such a thing could happen on American soil, the American mainland, whereas terrorist attacks on our soil were sadly familiar to us.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    In any event, venerating living people in stained glass in a seminary or church is perfectly ridiculous..

    Like OJ being in the Hall of Fame?


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    mirele wrote:

    If you Google the biggest threat to law enforcement in the USA 2015, you will get story after story pointing out that the biggest threat to our police forces comes not from Muslim extremists, but from sovereign citizens. (I’d put in links, but if you’re interested, you’ll use Google.)

    I beg to differ there mirele. The San Bernardino massacre was right in my backyard so to speak, and it sure as hell wasn’t white-anglo-saxon-gun-nuts who done it…


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    @ Beakerj:
    I think your society is far more tolerant (and genuinely multicultural) than ours. There is so much anxiety and hatred here over Spanish-speaking people (including native-born Americans), etc. etc. etc.


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    okrapod wrote:

    But obviously there was no excuse for the catholic teens to be going to church dance parties on weekends, because dancing was a work of the devil and led to no good and that just goes to show you that all that other stuff which we objected to only leads to dancing and that ought to tell you something right there.

    And of course, we strongly disapproved of the fact that Catholics drink (gasp) alcohol!


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    numo wrote:

    There is so much anxiety and hatred here over Spanish-speaking people (including native-born Americans), etc. etc. etc.

    And before that, there were the African-Americans, the Irish, the Italians ……….
    Yep. What a melting pot!


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    Beakerj wrote:

    Birmingham, which is my hometown…

    Really? Whereabouts * ? I grew up in Sutton Coldfield.

    * Or “furryboots”, as they say in the north of Scotland.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    I was born in Moseley. However I moved to Hong Kong at 4 years old, & given that my Dad had a public school accent & my Mum a fading Irish accent I got away with no trace of brum in my voice.

    Nick, what’s your take on the Islamisation of Britain thing?


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    @ Beakerj:
    Sorry, but I am not making a meta-narrative. I mentioned only reported facts. I won’t respond to your further points because Dee asked us to drop the subject.


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    @ Lowlandseer:

    Curious, do you live in the UK?


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    @ mirele:

    Other online papers are carrying the same stories, and other of Muslim refugees groping women in public pools and so on.


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    @ mirele:

    How many of the so-called “patriot” groups are going to decapitate me for being an infidel or kafir, though?

    I’m more concerned over extremist Muslims.


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    numo wrote:

    During the Reformation era, there were incidents in which mobs of people basically sacked churches, destroying stained glass window, defacing tombs, statues, wall paintings, etc., as well as looting – there were things that were made of precious metals that could be melted down, after all.

    In Geneva, the Reformers left only plain whitewashed walls with ALL decoration removed, which they then lettered over with verses of SCRIPTURE.

    Just like the Wahabi do to mosques they take over.


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    Friend wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    This is accomplished through instruction in homemaking skills and developing insights into home and family, while continuing to equip women to understand and engage the culture of today.

    Sounds like they will emerge with a degree in Neighbor Shaming.

    And Sin-Sniffing.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_Lady


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    Julie Anne Smith wrote:

    They are in the SSB dog house permanently. Someone sent me the link to where they are whining about it. dumb little yip yips.

    You actually went to Dalrock, or whatever it’s called, and read there? Boy, you must have some constitution. I haven’t had the stomach yet to check out that kind of woman-hating echo chamber. The few comments that they left on your site are bad enough.


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    mirele wrote:

    Speaking of no-go zones, over the past month, we here in the Western US have had the takeover of the wildlife refuge in Oregon. During the takeover, federal employees (not just of the refuge, but of other federal agencies) were pretty much told not to go to work in Burns, Oregon, because of the fear that some alleged “patriots” might cause problems. And FBI agents were told to stay out of Kanab, Utah, today, because LaVoy Finicum’s funeral is going on.

    Take care, the situation is not black and white. Some heavy handed government officials operated outside of propriety, others bungled, and the over-ruling of a local judge to put a few people back into prison inflamed the situation. Don’t get the idea I approve of their reaction, I don’t, but also don’t immediately jump to the conclusion they don’t have a legitimate gripe.


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    Emphasis mine.

    “Hunts include an African safari for two, including daily and trophy fees; Texas hunts for whitetail deer; and turkey hunts along the Rio Grande. Youngsters will walk away with Red Rider BB guns, all thanks to more than $20,000 put up by sponsors including the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention and GuideStone Financial Resources of the Southern Baptist Convention”. – See more at: https://baptistnews.com/ministry/organizations/item/30907-seminary-gun-giveaway-aims-for-lost-souls#sthash.uXsy6Fff.dpuf


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    This is the best one: oh bow wow

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-g40kJCZWPJs/UzqPP4pQYgI/AAAAAAAAC1E/5WQr_2hIGvo/s1600/HeBloggedFromMomsBasement.jpg

    It would be less an issue if it were so. I think G-d has a sense of humor. People take themselves way too seriously, especially these conservative resurgence and Neocal crowd.


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    @ numo:

    From what I’ve read of them and their comments, I have no doubts about that, Numo.


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    @ Serving Kids In Japan:
    The entire “manosphere” is unbearably toxic. I’ve encountered a couple of its noisemakers on other blogs.


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    Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    You actually went to Dalrock, or whatever it’s called, and read there?

    We took one for the team. 🙂 Incidentally, one of the vilest MRAs actually lives in his mother’s basement. No kidding.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3432531/Pictured-pick-artist-center-international-pro-rape-storm-t-shirt-shorts-door-mother-s-home-lives-basement.html


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    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    We took one for the team. Incidentally, one of the vilest MRAs actually lives in his mother’s basement. No kidding.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3432531/Pictured-pick-artist-center-international-pro-rape-storm-t-shirt-shorts-door-mother-s-home-lives-basement.html

    My gosh, what a loser. I’d love to see a psychiatrist explain what is wrong with a person like this. In the comments, one person made a great point: according to his advice, his mother can be raped and it would be okay.


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    I don’t know if anyone said this in the comments because I haven’t read all of them. But Paige Patterson’s view sounds like the wife should be willing to suffer being beaten to the glory of God. What is astonishing is that no one was publicly outraged over his speech on wifely submission. I honestly believe that Calvinist churches would gladly opt for the days when men could hit their wives and it would be support by English Common Law.

    Just yesterday I posted a scenario on a Calvinist Facebook site in which the husband and wife have differing political views on the issues and presidential candidates. I asked if that if the husband is requiring the wife to vote according to his wants and desires should she do it even if it would go against what she would vote. All of the males said the wife should submit to the husband and obey him and vote the way he wants her to. One man even stated his support of coverture and no one opposed him but me! Every time a marriage question is posted, the men show their true colors with regard to women. Their comments border on shocking, and the women who defend equality and oppose their rigid gender roles are called Feminists. Women need to be warned to stay away from Calvinist churches where they will be silenced and treated as African Americans were under Jim Crow.


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    Wow…a man just responded on that Facebook site to my scenario about wives voting differently than their husbands: “This was not a problem when it was one vote per family.” I’ll keep you posted with more of the responses.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Bookbolter wrote:
    Patterson has also had stained glass windows with his own likeness installed at the seminary. While he is still living and still president of the seminary. Wish I were kidding.
    I could not believe my eyes when I saw they were commissioning stained glass windows with the likenesses of CR leaders. This is idolatry on steroids. But then as recent as the 1990’s, SBTS named a college after a pro chattel slavery SBC Founder.

    Who was this pro chattel slavery SBC Founder? Honestly, I wouldn’t at all be surprised if many of these guys think that the Antebullum South was the Good Ole Days.


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    Darlene wrote:

    Who was this pro chattel slavery SBC Founder? Honestly, I wouldn’t at all be surprised if many of these guys think that the Antebullum South was the Good Ole Days.

    I think Lydia is referring to James P. Boyce.


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    Darlene wrote:

    about wives voting differently than their husbands: “This was not a problem when it was one vote per family.”

    Some women in the patriarchy movement believe they should not vote, because it is the husband’s job to represent the family to the civil authorities. So which is better: for the patriarch to command all the females’ votes in the house (because surely there are some adult stay-at-home daughters), or for the females of voting age not to vote at all?

    Religion is voluntary. All of this submission belief is self-imposed. It grieves me to see people ceding their own human rights and bullying others to do likewise.


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    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
    You actually went to Dalrock, or whatever it’s called, and read there?
    We took one for the team. Incidentally, one of the vilest MRAs actually lives in his mother’s basement. No kidding.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3432531/Pictured-pick-artist-center-international-pro-rape-storm-t-shirt-shorts-door-mother-s-home-lives-basement.html

    The article says, “He had advised followers that feminists may attack them or male opponents, but they were not to strike back but follow the ‘Gandhi principle of non violence’ record incidents on cell phones.”

    I can’t even count the number of ways that’s ridiculous. Long live Gandhiji! Long live Gandhiji! And his iPhone 6! And his iPhone 6!


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    @ Friend:
    I’ve seen blog posts by a few women who think women’s suffrage should be repealed.


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    numo wrote:

    @ Friend:
    I’ve seen blog posts by a few women who think women’s suffrage should be repealed.

    They want to go back to the early 19th century when women couldn’t own property, didn’t have the right to vote, and slavery existed? Some of them glorify the antebellum American South. It’s ok if they make the personal choice to not be able to vote or own property, but to impose this on others as a matter of public policy? Isn’t this Dominionism?


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    numo wrote:

    I’ve seen blog posts by a few women who think women’s suffrage should be repealed.

    Well, no-one’s forcing them to vote. Perhaps they’d like to undergo voluntary lobotomies as well, just in case?


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    okrapod wrote:

    because dancing was a work of the devil and led to no good and that just goes to show you that all that other stuff which we objected to only leads to dancing and that ought to tell you something right there.

    Fortunately, there is now a 12 step program to enable evangelicals to be delivered from the evils of dancing.


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    @ Mark:
    Of course it’s Dominionism. The next thing will be to take the vote away from men under a certain age, men who are not “white” (by their standards), etc.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Mark wrote:
    Maybe is if a Bishop of the Mohler variety becomes Pope of Southwestern Baptist Seminary he will build, with the help of his helpmate, a tower of his biblical manhood to compete with the chapel comc strips.
    In the shape of a 300-foot (100-meter) erect phallus?

    Hey, nothing surprises me. If someone had told me that comic strips with conservative resurgence leaders would emblazon a seminary chapel I would have been shocked years ago. I always thought stained glass windows should be teaching tools and have something to do with Bible stories and about Jesus. This has nothing to do with the Glory of God, but the glory of men. There is a term for this I don’t like to express. We will all meet our Maker someday. What will we tell Him or Her? And I think the same goes for the Pattersons. Catholic statuary and figurative art and Orthodox icons is all about teaching some lesson that has at least something connected to some Biblical truth. My parents best family friends were Roman Catholic. My “aunt” Katy had what I call a “Mary in the bath tub” in her yard. She liked Mary. Mary definitely has some connection to the Bible and Jesus. Don’t see Dottie and Paige, also a women’s name, incidentally, as have a connection to the Word of God, unless they believe they should be elevated to this station. Just my opinion. It wouldn’t astound me that if Paige has a neocalvinist successor, he might not try to outdo Mr Patterson to prove he is more of a stalwart complementarian and conservative Christian.


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    Mark wrote:

    My “aunt” Katy had what I call a “Mary in the bath tub

    We had one of those in our yards too!


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    numo wrote:

    take the vote away from men under a certain age, men who are not “white” (by their standards), etc.

    Some would argue that the voter ID laws in certain states are meant to suppress the votes of the less popular members of society. Likewise the resistance to restoring voting rights to felons who have paid their debt to society. Thoreau compared the Concord jail (where he spent a night for refusing to pay taxes) to a village inn, perhaps because he found his fellow prisoners so ordinary.

    It’s Saturday night and I just ate a really nice pink grapefruit while watching an NHL game. So I’m just feeling expansive, not trying to start a dispute. I treasure you all. 🙂


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    Darlene wrote:

    Wow…a man just responded on that Facebook site to my scenario about wives voting differently than their husbands: “This was not a problem when it was one vote per family.” I’ll keep you posted with more of the responses.

    I’m not surprised. There was a good deal of talk, in some parts of cyberspace, about the fact that many women had been “required” by their husbamds to abstain from voting in the last 2 presidential elections. Apparently, these guys believe that the only reason Obama won is that “all those feminists voted for him”.
    Hence the call to turn back the clock on women’s suffrage, you see: Get ALL women out of the ballot box, & they expect the calendars to magically make it 1742…..


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    zooey111 wrote:

    many women had been “required” by their husbamds to abstain from voting in the last 2 presidential elections.

    Meanwhile, some other “good Christians,” including women I know, rearranged their lives to work at the polls, specifically because of rumors and fear mongering: hordes of undesirables were supposedly scheming to storm polling stations. Our election system has some problems, but I don’t believe that this particular fear materialized.


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    Mark wrote:

    Catholic statuary and figurative art and Orthodox icons is all about teaching some lesson that has at least something connected to some Biblical truth.

    I put a rather small concrete St.Francis in my side yard where the bird bath is, under the crape myrtle. Because we can all learn a lot from St. Francis. I don’t believe I can link the person or the name to scripture, but there you go anyway.


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    numo wrote:

    @ Mark:
    Of course it’s Dominionism. The next thing will be to take the vote away from men under a certain age, men who are not “white” (by their standards), etc.

    Don’t forget men who do not own “property” (i.e. land).


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    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    We took one for the team. 🙂 Incidentally, one of the vilest MRAs actually lives in his mother’s basement. No kidding.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3432531/Pictured-pick-artist-center-international-pro-rape-storm-t-shirt-shorts-door-mother-s-home-lives-basement.html

    FYI, this is the “Make Rape Legal” guy.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    “Hunts include an African safari for two, including daily and trophy fees; Texas hunts for whitetail deer; and turkey hunts along the Rio Grande. Youngsters will walk away with Red Rider BB guns, all thanks to more than $20,000 put up by sponsors including the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention and GuideStone Financial Resources of the Southern Baptist Convention”.

    “Keep on Tithing, PewPeons!”
    — paraphrase of an incredibly arrogant professional welfare bum from the USENET days


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Don’t forget men who do not own “property” (i.e. land).

    A double plus if you also own animate property.


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    My daughter knew some of her college girl friends, who married guys from the college they all went too. Then the guys went to PP’s “seminary”. She said these women turned into shadows of the vibrant women they used to in college. In her words, the seminary is a “cult”. I honestly feel sorry for these women. Maybe someday they will wise up and quit drinking that “koolaid”.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “Keep on Tithing, PewPeons!”
    — paraphrase of an incredibly arrogant professional welfare bum from the USENET days

    Ticks me off royally. The SBC churches pass the plates, gladly taking money from hard working women. Then part of those tithes go to PP’s boys club. Which, now that I think about it, the SBC is a boys club!
    We’re bringing home IMB missionaries, and I guess there aren’t any homeless people in Texas, or people who have lost their jobs and could use some help. Nope, nothing to use funding on that’s any more important than the PP he-man showcase.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    “Keep on Tithing, PewPeons!”
    — paraphrase of an incredibly arrogant professional welfare bum from the USENET days
    Ticks me off royally. The SBC churches pass the plates, gladly taking money from hard working women. Then part of those tithes go to PP’s boys club. Which, now that I think about it, the SBC is a boys club!
    We’re bringing home IMB missionaries, and I guess there aren’t any homeless people in Texas, or people who have lost their jobs and could use some help. Nope, nothing to use funding on that’s any more important than the PP he-man showcase.

    Amen! I don’t think Lottie Moon could be a missionary in the present SBC. Now I could accept a stained glass of her in the back of a church. She is tried and true, and a great woman.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Nope, nothing to use funding on that’s any more important than the PP he-man showcase.

    Make that “The PP He-Man Woman-Haters showcase.”


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    Daisy wrote:

    Also, you say that these problems exist due to too much emphasis being placed on submission, which I find a baffling position for you to take, because you have stated many times before that the Bible does not teach mutual submission in a marriage, but one-way, in the part of the wife.

    I’m convinced for various reasons that mutual submission is not the intended meaning, given the context. The ususal rejoinder is that one-way submission makes wives vulnerable to abuse.

    The answer to this is for the husband to know and actually do what the apostles instruct him to do. The sacrifical love, nourish, consideration etc etc part. It is simiply not poasible for a man to attempt to live out what the apostle says and be a domineering bully. This is excluded.

    This agape love is the ‘complement’ of the submission. If this (love) is neither taught nor practiced, you have nothing complementarian about the marriage, and the wife is indeed vulnerable to exploitation. That men have ignored the instructions given to them and run off with notions of headship/leadership/having authority to dominate and dictate, if not subjugate their wives I do not doubt, but the answer to this is to bring them into obedience to what God expects of them, not for wives to make the same mistake of trying to nullify what Paul and Peter require of them.

    In other words, the answer to husbands being faithless with regard to Christian marriage is not for wives to argue their half of the bargain is ‘not for today’ either.

    The apostles give a clear but very basic framework to Christian marriage. To this needs to be added all of the rest of what the NT teaches about how we should treat ‘one another’, plus the wisdom of older and mature Christians who have had a chance to learn from their mistakes and can pass this knowledge on to the next generation. Last but not least is the need to go on being filled with the Spirit in this connection which should over the long haul put to death the works of the flesh.


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    dee wrote:

    This was a culture that had a hard scrabble life. Men were not generically more valuable then women in terms of spiritually. However, men were more valuable for their strength and ability to take on the hard tasks of providing for food and protection. That is most likely the reason for boys bringing in a higher value than girls. In today’s culture, that doesn’t make sense any longer. I could go on a bit more but perhaps this is enough to get my drift. What do you think?

    I get what you are saying, I hope you are right, but male babies at 2 months old are more valuable than female babies at 2 months old. A male baby at this age is not stronger than a female baby at this age. Yes, he may grow up to be stronger, but at this point he is not.

    I do think most comps would say a woman did not have to submit to sin, but the submission doctrine does allow a man to almost completely control the life of his wife and deny her any real identity. I am glad for this blog or any organization that speaks out against this crap.

    I don’t think comps believe in “equality with different roles.” I think they believe completely in female inferiority, so women are lured in by believing they are equal, then denied any real status or opportunity, and oftentimes, abuse.
    That is why I find this paradigm highly dangerous.

    I also think scripture gives this impression at times. I don’t like the way Eve was pranced in front of Adam, like an animal. It only mattered that he liked her, she was never asked how she felt about him. It makes you feel like she is his property and nothing more. I am not convinced that women are in the image of God, per Genesis. It says in my version: In his image God created HIM, male and female got created THEM. (emphasis mine here)

    Thanks again. I do love the blog


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    Mark wrote:

    Amen! I don’t think Lottie Moon could be a missionary in the present SBC. Now I could accept a stained glass of her in the back of a church. She is tried and true, and a great woman.

    From what I’ve read about Lottie Moon, she’d either get kicked out or she’d walk away from the SBC. I refuse to donate to the Lottie Moon offering – hypocracy bordering on heresy. Apparently, it’s okay to,use a strong, courageous, dedicated, independent woman as a tool to bring in the cash, but our church leaders would go into seizures if we tried to use her as an example of how a Christian woman should live.


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    Ken wrote:

    In other words, the answer to husbands being faithless with regard to Christian marriage is not for wives to argue their half of the bargain is ‘not for today’ either.

    Yeah, we get it, Ken. God made men to the masters and women to be the servants. If a husband is abusing the wife, it’s the wife’s Christian duty to just take it.
    Why don’t you move over here and join the SBC? You’d probably get elected president of the SBC for your stance on gender roles alone.


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    Libby wrote:

    hope you are right, but male babies at 2 months old are more valuable than female babies at 2 months old. A male baby at this age is not stronger than a female baby at this age. Yes, he may grow up to be stronger, but at this point he is not.

    I think that God allowed the society to take into account the future work related value of that child. It is similar to a jury negotiating what the monetary damages that might be awarded to a man who is paralyzed in a car accident caused by another person driving recklessly.

    They take into account how much he could have made given his current job had he remained healthy. They then add in things like the need for home health assistance, medical care, transportation etc. So all future expenses and projected earnings are translated into today’s dollars and a verdict is reached. So, let;s say the verdict was $5 million. That is not putting a worth on the person’s life as a husband, dad, etc in spiritual sense. It is merely trying to come up with some number that might seem fair.

    Once again, I am not saying that women as less valuable. Goodness knows I get into much trouble for stating that women are equal in value and intellect. I am just taking into account what may have been God’s purposes who was ruling in that day in what might be termed as a theocracy.

    This means that God was functioning as the head of the CDC (don’t eat shellfish and pork because you might get sick), as well as the creator of the laws by which the society functioned under. That is what I think of when I look at God during those days. He was the Executive Branch, the Legislature and the Supreme Court all rolled up into one.

    Of course, the people wanted a human king and they got what they wanted. The theocracy was short lived.

    Libby wrote:

    . I am not convinced that women are in the image of God, per Genesis. It says in my version: In his image God created HIM, male and female got created THEM. (emphasis mine here)

    I think you are hitting on something important here. I do believe that there is an underlying theology afoot in which women are said to have been created from Adam and are therefore subordinate to him. I expect to hear this more and more as the CBMW group and the hard line complementarians continue to be given the center platform within the conservative Christian movement.

    I have also heard from a few loons that women are not created in the image of God. They are created in the image of Males. There is a problem when one takes a Bible verse which is meant to convey a large idea-God created mankind- and then devolve it into “Therefore, women are a lesser creation.”

    I, as well as others women, have been told that we have no business correcting John Piper or other pastors since we are not allowed to question so-called male teachers. By marginalizing over 50% of the church, the men are protecting their turf. I truly believe if women had been in leadership, issues like domestic violence would have been dealt with far more quickly.

    Also, thank you for your kind comments.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Yeah, we get it, Ken. God made men to the masters and women to be the servants. If a husband is abusing the wife, it’s the wife’s Christian duty to just take it.

    I’ve never said God made men to be masters

    I’ve never said women are to be servants.

    I’ve never said an abused wife has to take it; on the contraray, she is not expected to ‘submit’ to such treatment.

    I therefore conclude you don’t get it at all.

    I’m not going to bet bogged down in the details of this again, it’s futile. I think it odds on that if Daisy replies to the above post, it will merely be to assert yet again without argument that ‘the bible teaches mutual submission’; and haven’t we already done Eph 5 to death with not an awful lot to show for it?!


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    Ken wrote:

    I’m convinced for various reasons that mutual submission is not the intended meaning

    I’m becoming convinced otherwise.

    On a related track, one of the problems I’ve seen with churches is they install young pastors as leaders and then try to get them to learn how to be a servant. This backwards approach attracts and creates oppressors. Better they first be servants and learn to lead by example. The clear lesson for the church is mutual submission, trust and any leadership should be earned and not assigned.

    Putting a pair of young people together in an unequal relationship will similarly influence a negative outcome. The model you propose seems unusual to me, unequal relationship is not modeled in the trinity and should not it be in the church, so why should God ordained it for marriage? An inescapable point of male leadership in marriage is that it fosters an unequal relationship that can lead to abuse. What ever label you want to call it, if you have to follow it up all kinds of teaching in an attempt to counteract the natural negative outcome, no matter how nice a gloss you try to put on it, it is repulsive to many.


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    Libby wrote:

    I don’t like the way Eve was pranced in front of Adam, like an animal. It only mattered that he liked her, she was never asked how she felt about him. It makes you feel like she is his property and nothing more.

    Hi Libby, there might be some who disagree with me, but I strongly believe that Eve was designed with the virtues and characteristics Adam was, not lacking, but ignoring. She therefore was a visual help he needed to stand in front of him.

    ‛êzer
    ay’-zer
    From H5826; aid: – help.

    The root word H5826 means:

    ‛âzar
    aw-zar’
    A primitive root; to surround, that is, protect or aid: – help, succour.

    neged
    neh’-ghed
    From H5046; a front, that is, part opposite; specifically a counterpart, or mate; usually (adverbially, especially with preposition) over against or before: –

    BDB Definition:
    1) what is conspicuous, what is in front of (substantive)
    2) in front of, straight forward, before, in sight of (adverb)

    The word translated “help” is found several times in the OT referencing God as our “help.”

    Psalm 33:20 Our soul waits for the LORD; He is our help and our shield.

    Psalm 70:5 But I am afflicted and needy; Hasten to me, O God! You are my help and my deliverer; O LORD, do not delay.


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    Bill M wrote:

    Putting a pair of young people together in an unequal relationship will similarly influence a negative outcome. The model you propose seems unusual to me, unequal relationship is not modeled in the trinity and should not it be in the church, so why should God ordained it for marriage? An inescapable point of male leadership in marriage is that it fosters an unequal relationship that can lead to abuse.

    I have wondered …….. if one of Ken’s daughters married a real sweetheart of a guy who turned out to be an abuser ……… would Ken support his sil and tell his daughter to just suck it up and deal with it?
    He said: “In other words, the answer to husbands being faithless with regard to Christian marriage is not for wives to argue their half of the bargain is ‘not for today’ either.”


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    BC wrote:

    @ Beakerj:
    When you say you are of Asia and Irish descent are you saying that you are of Pakistani and there Muslim descent on your father’s side?

    Why are you interrogating Beakerj like this? She has been commenting here for years. And what does it matter what her nationality is?


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    @ BC:

    I don’t understand why you liked this article to your comment to Beakerj. I am trying to think the best of you, but I am becoming completely repulsed by your comments.


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    Bill M wrote:

    On a related track, one of the problems I’ve seen with churches is they install young pastors as leaders and then try to get them to learn how to be a servant. This backwards approach attracts and creates oppressors. Better they first be servants and learn to lead by example.

    In other words, rising through the ranks as an apprenticeship.

    German/Israeli Army officer selection instead of British/American.


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    @ Ken:

    Jesus taught all are equals, there is not to be a hierarchy among believers, not even in marriage. Eph 5.21 echoes that.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    they install young pastors as leaders and then try to get them to learn how to be a servant.

    One thing that strikes me about the seminarians who serve at my church is what humble and attentive listeners they are. They always ask good questions and try to pick up life lessons as well as suggestions from the parishioners. I’m sure that some of this comes from seminary training.


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    Friend wrote:

    they install young pastors as leaders and then try to get them to learn how to be a servant.

    Oops, that was quoting Bill M… but yes, our seminarians rise through the ranks, starting out with smaller responsibilities.


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    dee wrote:

    I have also heard from a few loons that women are not created in the image of God. They are created in the image of Males. There is a problem when one takes a Bible verse which is meant to convey a large idea-God created mankind- and then devolve it into “Therefore, women are a lesser creation.”
    I, as well as others women, have been told that we have no business correcting John Piper or other pastors since we are not allowed to question so-called male teachers. By marginalizing over 50% of the church, the men are protecting their turf. I truly believe if women had been in leadership, issues like domestic violence would have been dealt with far more quickly.

    Am I the only one getting really tired of all of the cr*p women have had heaped on them for thousands of years? What gives? We’re just people! No, not lesser than, not subordinate to anyone. So why have we been treated this way? One conclusion I can make is that Satan hates women and our influence. It seems to me that the authoritarian churches first isolate and push aside the women. Once their influence is gone, then the men are easy pickings. I do wish the comps would realize that by restricting women, they’re the ones, not the egalitarians, who are letting the sinful world affect their beliefs and practices.

    Okay, I’m now getting off my fancy, French-milled, scented soap box.


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    patriciamc wrote:

    fancy, French-milled, scented soap box.

    At least the comps won’t snatch it away for their all-boys’ soap box derby!


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    In other words, rising through the ranks as an apprenticeship.

    German/Israeli Army officer selection instead of British/American.

    That is part of it, the military equivalent of making a thirty year old a “head pastor” would be the old nobles being given a generalship by birthright. Good leadership was the exception.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    if one of Ken’s daughters married a real sweetheart of a guy who turned out to be an abuser ……… would Ken support his stil and tell his daughter to just suck it up and deal with it?

    Having heard Ken’s viewpoint I am certain he would NOT tell someone to just “suck it up” let alone his daughter. He can obviously correct me if I am wrong. From his formulation I believe he would say that an abuser is still guilty, I don’t think I have ever heard Ken defend the nutcases that tell a woman to go back to their abuser.

    Sorry to speak for Ken here, I think we both agree that abuse is wrong. Where we disagree is that I believe a relationship that is not equal can be partly responsible for fostering abuse.


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    Bill M wrote:

    I don’t think I have ever heard Ken defend the nutcases that tell a woman to go back to their abuser.

    I don’t agree with all of Ken’s conclusions, but I have never heard him say this either.


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    Friend wrote:

    One thing that strikes me about the seminarians who serve at my church is what humble and attentive listeners they are. They always ask good questions and try to pick up life lessons as well as suggestions from the parishioners. I’m sure that some of this comes from seminary training.

    I’ve experienced it both ways, both with bad outcomes.
    A humble person came in, had too much authority, become prideful and authoritarian.
    The alternate was the thirty year old pastor parachuted in, little or no history, no relationships or trust build up, and pride started day one.

    If seminaries were full of people in their forties and fifties, people who have accomplished something in life and wanted to go for more training, I’m all for it. Unfortunately they seem to be more like trade schools for very young men to be “pastors” (leaders) and the first chapter they read is apparently anyone who disagrees is automatically divisive and needs to be sidelined.

    But this thread was about flaw theology that may be linked to abuse. I am arguing that the authority/lreadership/abuse are part and parcel the same thing, whether it be an authoritarian in the church or in the marriage, it starts with a flawed view that someone must be in authority.


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    This was such a sad and silly video. Sad to say, but this video makes the man look like a dorky old wannabe big game hunter.

    The gun he mentioned is an EXTREMELY powerful firearm. I am sure that he is not capable of firing it, without injuring himself.

    Personally, I have to admit that I am a “gun lover”. I love plinking at cans with my .22s. I have a concealed carry permit, and regularly carry. I have rifles, shotguns, revolvers, and semi-auto pistols. Heck, I even have a semi-auto AK47 just in case the world devolves into a “Mad Max” dystopia.

    I’m not a hunter, and while I respect real hunters, I don’t care much for dorky old rich guys going on African safari hunting trips. It just seems silly.

    By the way, his comments about needing 2-3 witnesses for a sex crime makes no sense given the obvious nature of such offenses.


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    @ Bill M:
    Can’t highlight text from this device, but I agree regarding older seminarians. Ours are younger and older, male and female, different backgrounds, many with careers under their belts, spouses, children… They bring useful life experience. I think the variety within the seminary helps the seminarians prepare for church communities. And I think it helps to challenge and underpin their theology.


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    @ Bill M:
    I am sorry you’ve had bad experiences with clergy. There are certainly some bad apples out there. .. I have encountered them too.


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    Friend wrote:

    I am sorry you’ve had bad experiences with clergy.

    Don’t get me wrong, some are great people and not all bad, just a high percentage.


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    @ BC:
    What is your problem, anyway???!!


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    Bart wrote:

    By the way, his comments about needing 2-3 witnesses for a sex crime makes no sense given the obvious nature of such offenses.

    He does not seem to grasp the foolishness of his words which, in my book, makes him the most dangerous kind of leader.


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    Bridget wrote:

    Bart wrote:
    By the way, his comments about needing 2-3 witnesses for a sex crime makes no sense given the obvious nature of such offenses.
    He does not seem to grasp the foolishness of his words which, in my book, makes him the most dangerous kind of leader.

    Isn’t the 2 to 3 witnesses applicable to Matthew 18, which is the part of Scripture used as a citation for church discipline? I used to be a believer in church discipline. Now after witnessing spiritual abuse, I am not so sure.


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    @ dee:

    “Goodness knows I get into much trouble for stating that women are equal in value and intellect.”
    +++++++++++++

    for reals? do they actually articulate or allude to that, while in the middle of their tizzy conniption? or is that just you being honest for them while they hide behind the convenient charge of ‘you must have a low view of scripture because you don’t subscribe to gender roles’?


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    Mark wrote:

    Isn’t the 2 to 3 witnesses applicable to Matthew 18, which is the part of Scripture used as a citation for church discipline?

    There is another scripture about 2-3 witnesses to bring a charge against an elder. But in the case domestic abuse, the victim should simply go to police not their elders and church leaders. Domestic abuse is breaking the law, not a church discipline issue, even if it does involve an elder.


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    @ BC:
    I am concerned about this comment. It is filled with accusations without any sort of proof.I do not want comments that generalize about people groups. Therefore I am going to delete your comment. Also, please do not guess about the ancestry of people.


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    @ BC:
    This comment is inappropriate and is being deleted.


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    i comment not posted.


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    Friend wrote:

    At least the comps won’t snatch it away for their all-boys’ soap box derby!

    Good. Their ickyness won’t defile my soapbox.


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    @ Friend:

    what seminary/seminaries do the people in your church come from?


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    Bridget wrote:

    Mark wrote:
    Isn’t the 2 to 3 witnesses applicable to Matthew 18, which is the part of Scripture used as a citation for church discipline?
    There is another scripture about 2-3 witnesses to bring a charge against an elder. But in the case domestic abuse, the victim should simply go to police not their elders and church leaders. Domestic abuse is breaking the law, not a church discipline issue, even if it does involve an elder.

    They have a problem with civil society and secular laws and courts? Otherwise why would they be giving this advice? This advice is bearing bad fruit in a well publicized cases. I try to understand what the neo fundamentalists are thinking. It makes no sense. There is a biblical injunction to render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar’s which is the domain of a civil society with its secular laws and courts. They are overstepping their bounds is my thought is my opinion.


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    @ Bridget:
    They also lack empathy. Mr. Patterson does love his wife. Now let’s put Dottie in the shoes of that woman with those blackened eyes. Would Paige give that same advise or would he appeal to the authorities before that figurative Dottie is in a coffin? Mr. Patterson was very supportive of Gilyard even after the accusations surfaced. Why? Couldn’t he put himself in the place of Mr. Gilyard’s victims?


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    Bill M wrote:

    From his formulation I believe he would say that an abuser is still guilty, I don’t think I have ever heard Ken defend the nutcases that tell a woman to go back to their abuser.

    I think two things are being conflated here. One is the Normal Christian Marriage™, with the differentiated instructions to wives and husbands. I’m increasingly getting the impression that i>both egalitarians and complementarians are unable to get beyond Eph 5 21 on this issue! The intructions to husbands rule out absolutely any abusive behaviour, a point that seems to get lost in arguing what submission probably doesn’t mean.

    An abusive marriage is where this is blatantly not being lived out. Usually – but not always – the husband has arrogated to himself the role of emperor, lording over his wife, treating her with contempt as the weaker vessel. Intimidation (him) or manipulation (her) have become the order of the day.

    In these difficult circumstances you have the apostle Peter’s advice in 1 Pet 3 where wives have husbands who do not obey the word. He deals with how the wife should behave and conduct herself; ending the marriage is not the first port of call.

    You then have the tension between Jesus’ instruction to his followers not to divorce, and the fact you cannot simply hand a woman over to be beaten up by her husband. You also have Paul’s instructions where an unbelieving spouse wishes to separate, relieving the believing partner of an obligation to continue the marriage at any cost. All these have to be factored in to the equation.

    Any complementarian or patriarch who, when dealing with an abusive husband, can only focus on a wife submitting has totally lost the plot.

    I wouldn’t pretend for one moment dealing with such issues is simple, that there is a one size fits all formula, and can only repeat I am glad I am not a pastor in this regard. They have to find the wisdom to confront and try to put right such situations.


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    Ken wrote:

    The intructions to husbands rule out absolutely any abusive behaviour, a point that seems to get lost in arguing what submission probably doesn’t mean.
    An abusive marriage is where this is blatantly not being lived out. Usually – but not always –

    hmmm…”absolutely”…”probably”…”usually”…”but not always”

    Ken, I find it unbelievable that you have defined/interpreted a husband’s “role” in a marriage by the only “instruction” provided and that is to love his wife. Surely you know that most gender-specific commands in the Bible are not exclusive to the other gender.

    It may be getting old as some have made mention of this several times before, but there are over 50 “one-anothering” verses in the NT that confirm the mutual loving, kind, thoughtful treatment is not relegated to one specific gender to the exclusion of the other.

    I find it amazing that this complementarian view persists when it is so obviously contrary to the entire context of the NT.


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    Ken wrote:

    ending the marriage is not the first port of call.

    It most certainly might be in some cases!


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    Mark wrote:

    They have a problem with civil society and secular laws and courts? Otherwise why would they be giving this advice? This advice is bearing bad fruit in a well publicized cases. I try to understand what the neo fundamentalists are thinking. It makes no sense. There is a biblical injunction to render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar’s which is the domain of a civil society with its secular laws and courts. They are overstepping their bounds is my thought is my opinion.

    I completely agree. As far as I am concerned, men who teach that civil law breakers should be disciplined through the church and not tbe state are false teachers and should not be in any leadership position at all.


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    Victorious wrote:

    but there are over 50 “one-anothering” verses in the NT that confirm the mutual loving, kind, thoughtful treatment is not relegated to one specific gender to the exclusion of the other.

    See Ken above: The apostles give a clear but very basic framework to Christian marriage. To this needs to be added all of the rest of what the NT teaches about how we should treat ‘one another’…

    You have to determine from the context whether one another is universal in its scope, or means some to others. As far as mutual submission goes, you have to thank Gram3 for getting me to read this more carefully in context, as I used to be more sympathetic to the ‘everyone to everyone’ understanding of this verse (Eph 5 : 21) until I took it in context, where it is more qualified.

    It’s a presupposition of mine that when a biblical writer addresses a person or group of persons or someone with a particular function, you cannot simply apply this to everyone else.


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    Ken wrote:

    It’s a presupposition of mine that when a biblical writer addresses a person or group of persons or someone with a particular function, you cannot simply apply this to everyone else.

    Then you would agree that the same Paul who addresses those in the church of Ephesus addresses those in the church of Corinth differently because of a specific need in those congregations?

    I ask because the only place where a husband is given any authority whatsoever is the same place the wife is given the same authority. (1 Cor. 7) So are you saying that only applied to the Corinthians and we should not see that chapter as applicable to our lives today? If that’s the case, we can treat the Bible as a spiritual smorgasbord and choose only those scriptures we want to digest as appropriate for some and meaningless for others.


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    Ken wrote:

    In these difficult circumstances you have the apostle Peter’s advice in 1 Pet 3 where wives have husbands who do not obey the word. He deals with how the wife should behave and conduct herself; ending the marriage is not the first port of call.

    If the husband’s an abusive sack of monkey snot, why not?

    Ken wrote:

    I wouldn’t pretend for one moment dealing with such issues is simple, that there is a one size fits all formula, and can only repeat I am glad I am not a pastor in this regard. They have to find the wisdom to confront and try to put right such situations.

    Or at least the wisdom to realize when such situations are too far beyond their ability to put right, and that they need to entrust that to law enforcement and people who have actually studied the human psyche.


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    Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    Or at least the wisdom to realize when such situations are too far beyond their ability to put right

    …and the wisdom to trust that those in the situation actually are mature enough to know what must for done for the good of all involved. When a relationship reaches the point where divorce is being considered, there is usually a lot of baggage from years and years that can’t possibly be conveyed in a couple of counseling sessions.

    I don’t think a pastor (or anyone else for that matter) has the wisdom to know what should be done in specific situations other than the parties themselves. They can and should ask for prayer, but the reason doesn’t necessarily need to be exposed.

    We need to stop thinking pastors have all the answers.


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    @ Victorious:
    This is about what the red-faced RSV translators call ‘conjugal rights’, and in this connection husband and wife ‘rule over’ each others bodies. They may temporarily refuse one another for prayer. There is obviously nothing cultural about this at all.

    I’m afraid the thought occurred to me that out of all the multitudes who have read 1 Cor over the years, I wonder how many have ever said “Not tonight, Joséphine, I wish to – um, ‘ow you say – devote myself to prayer and intersession”!! To which she mutters something about having a headache.


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    @ elastigirl:
    I am guessing here, but suspect that the answer is along the lines of “high church Protestant.” There is a very real difference re. seminaries in these denominations in terms of the kind of education students get. For one, it is an actual education. For two, anyone who intends to go into actual pastoral work basically has a long trial period (a bit like an apprenticeship) ahead of them, prior to ordination and actually being able to accept an offer from a congregation. The system is by no means foolproof, but it is VERY different from the kinds of “seminaries” being referred to by others.

    Hope I’m not being presumptuous, as i am obviously not Friend, and cannot answer for him/her.


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    Victorious wrote:

    Ken, I find it unbelievable that you have defined/interpreted a husband’s “role” in a marriage by the only “instruction” provided and that is to love his wife. Surely you know that most gender-specific commands in the Bible are not exclusive to the other gender.
    It may be getting old as some have made mention of this several times before, but there are over 50 “one-anothering” verses in the NT that confirm the mutual loving, kind, thoughtful treatment is not relegated to one specific gender to the exclusion of the other.

    If we take scripture as it is “plainly written” and divide us by gender, all of that “one-anothering” stuff is directed at men. There are painfully few verses in the Bible that apply to women. The Ten Commandments were directed at men, not women. So, does that mean that the Ten Commandments do not apply to women?
    In Eph., a husband is instructed to love his wife, while the wife is not instructed to love her husband. A wife is instructed to respect her husband, while the husband is not instructed to respect his wife. Submission is one way, love is one way, and respect is one way. So, I would assume that men who push this “one way” baloney based on Eph. 5 do not respect their wives and don’t really give a rip whether their wives love them or not.


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    I am not surprised any more when I see whackos like this, giving air to their bizarre schemas on life.

    The question I do have is for the women. WHY?

    Why do you attend this nut’s church? Why do you subject yourselves to this? If you are thinking you must in order to please God, please get out your Bible and start reading the new testament yourself, without the voices of men telling you what it supposedly says. Just read it and ask yourself if this kind of thing really expresses Jesus Christ. Then leave! An all-man church won’t last long.


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    Ken wrote:

    This is about what the red-faced RSV translators call ‘conjugal rights’, and in this connection husband and wife ‘rule over’ each others bodies. They may temporarily refuse one another for prayer. There is obviously nothing cultural about this at all.

    I think the obvious point is that each should respect the other’s physical boundaries.


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    numo wrote:

    Hope I’m not being presumptuous, as i am obviously not Friend, and cannot answer for him/her.

    Thanks… not presumptuous at all! I’ve been off the air and could not reply.

    Most of our seminarians come from Virginia Theological Seminary in Alexandria, Virginia. Once in awhile I’ve encountered a seminarian from Yale or elsewhere, but the community I described is at VTS.


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    Victorious wrote:

    Then you would agree that the same Paul who addresses those in the church of Ephesus addresses those in the church of Corinth differently because of a specific need in those congregations?

    I sometimes think of Paul’s writings as answer sheets for which we lack the questions. So what might people have been asking?

    Question: There’s this horrible new fad in my church. For some reason all the women tape live ferrets to their heads on Sunday mornings! I’m an usher, and believe me, Mr. Paul, the view from the back of the church is quite distracting. What action would you recommend? I really want to hear your sermon next time you come through our area.

    Please forgive the silly hypothetical; but I think it’s genuinely hard, and a serious task for serious believers, to sort out specific guidance from broader advice, rules, and beautiful statements of faith. Much menace happens when every single thing in the Bible is viewed as a command (directed at women and children more often than not). I think that regular study and prayer help, as well as a good-faith effort to see our fellow humans as precious in God’s sight.


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    Friend wrote:

    Much menace happens when every single thing in the Bible is viewed as a command (directed at women and children more often than not). I think that regular study and prayer help, as well as a good-faith effort to see our fellow humans as precious in God’s sight.

    Yes, indeed.


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    Ken wrote:

    This is about what the red-faced RSV translators call ‘conjugal rights’, and in this connection husband and wife ‘rule over’ each others bodies. They may temporarily refuse one another for prayer. There is obviously nothing cultural about this at all.

    You do have a way of making things seem like they are simply black/white.


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    Ken wrote:

    I’m afraid the thought occurred to me that out of all the multitudes who have read 1 Cor over the years, I wonder how many have ever said “Not tonight, Joséphine, I wish to – um, ‘ow you say – devote myself to prayer and intersession”!! To which she mutters something about having a headache.

    But Ken, you’re skirting the focus of the chapter. It’s not about prayer primarily, but about mutuality in marriage. See here:

    Each man should have his own wife
    Each woman should have her own husband

    The husband should fulfill his marital “duty” to his wife
    and likewise the wife to her husband

    The wife’s body does not belong to her alone, but to her husband
    In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but to her

    Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent for a time

    The believing husband has been sanctified through his wife
    and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through the believing husband

    How do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife
    How do you know wife, whether you will save your husband

    An unmarried man is concerned about how he can please the Lord
    An unmarried woman is concerned about the Lord’s affairs devoted to the Lord in body and spirit

    A married man is concerned about the affairs of the world and how to please his wife
    A married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world and how to please her husband

    This was a revolutionary picture of marriage without the great gender divide. Paul swept away the double standards. This was very different than the Rabbis who gave men authority over their wives with little recourse available for them but to submit to his demands. Paul was, in essence, leveling the playing field as he did in Galatians between slave/free; male/female and Jew/Greek.

    Paul knew the gospel had the power to transform the way men and women related to each other.


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    @ Friend:
    makes sense! i used to live nearby.


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    @ Friend:
    great reply. agreed on lacking the questions, for one.


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    Ken wrote:

    understanding of this verse (Eph 5 : 21) until I took it in context, where it is more qualified.

    No. 5.21 is still calling for husbands to submit to their wives; they are not excluded.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:
    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
    you’re practically not a Christian if you don’t vote Republican.
    Unless the Republican you vote for is named Donald.
    “WHO IS LIKE UNTO THE TRUMP! WHO CAN STAND AGAINST HIM!”
    Even Jerry Falwell Jr makes pilgrimage to Him to deliver the Anointing!

    So glad that you’re avoiding any political comments


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    okrapod wrote:

    You might be a redneck if you think that any teaching of critical thinking in the schools is a gummint plot to destroy the nation.
    You might be a redneck if you think that moral and ethical integrity is genetically passed down to the next generation, which is why Junior should not be in jail right now because his daddy and his granddaddy both were good men. And I don’t care what they say about that one incident with his daddy, he was a good man.
    Are Rednecks and people from the NW unprotected people groups on this blog?

    You might be a redneck if you think that the anatomic location of the human brain is in the underwear.
    You might be a redneck if you see people mostly as groups and not as individuals, and make no allowance for any information to the contrary.
    You definitely are a redneck if you think that God put you in charge but left it to you to achieve and maintain that position. And you are definitely a redneck if you cannot understand why other people don’t see this. Must be because they are (racial comment) or (gender comment) or (political comment) or possibly even people influenced by the gummint, but for sure it is all a plot to destroy the nation.


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    @ Victorious:
    The bit you quoted was completely tongue in cheek. I agree with pretty will everything you say here.

    I’ve said before if you take the egalitarian aspects of the NT as egalitarian, and the complementarian aspects as complementarian, you won’t go too far wrong.

    If you understand egalitarian as ‘treated equally’, I don’t have a problem with it; I don’t like the word because for me it has overtones of secular socialism that I’m none to keen on.

    I part company with egalitarians when they try to eliminate gender distinctions or if I dare say it roles that I think the bible upholds. One of these is that when Paul addresses wives or husbands (or leaders and members or servants and masters or Jews and Greeks …) you cannot simply apply each instruction to everybody else.


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    Ken wrote:

    The bit you quoted was completely tongue in cheek. I agree with pretty will everything you say here.

    I was pretty much aware of that, Ken, but it did seem you were focusing on the prayer aspect of the chapter. That was why I tried to show Paul’s focus was more on the mutuality of the husband/wife relationship.

    Paul has, in that one chapter, dispelled the notion that one person has more authority over the other and that decisions are best made by agreement of both parties. Regardless of what term we use (egalitarian or complementarian) the fact remains that throughout scripture, it’s not the outward appearance of an individual that determines how they must function. It’s the heart, talent, preparation, background, availability, etc. that God uses to accomplish His purposes.

    Marriage is a team of two people who (hopefully) share the same goals and values and work together in their endeavors.


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    Ken wrote:

    One of these is that when Paul addresses wives or husbands (or leaders and members or servants and masters or Jews and Greeks …) you cannot simply apply each instruction to everybody else.

    I disagree with this. For example, since we were discussing 1 Cor. 7, although Paul was directing this toward husbands and wives, it’s the principle of mutual respect, cooperation and deferring to others that everyone can take away from it. So unmarried and even teens can see those principles and incorporate it into their Christian walk. And as I said in an earlier post, if unmarried and teens were to ignore the whole chapter, they would be, in essence, treating scripture like a buffet table where they pick and choose what applies to them and what doesn’t. We should always ask what is the underlying principle being taught and what we can learn from it even though it may not directly apply to us at the present moment.

    I think Moses was the perfect person to lead the Israelites across the desert since he had already spent a good deal of time there when he escaped from Egypt. Likewise Paul was the perfect person to teach the Jews about the new Kingdom and refute their insistence to remain in the OT since of his background which prepared him for this ministry. We should always be aware that one may being prepared for certain ministry or purposes of God and He uses their individual talents, strengths, heart attitudes and backgrounds to accomplish them.

    Bottom line that I take away from scripture is that God is not partial and is very resourceful and if we cooperate with Him we will be blessed.


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    Bridget wrote:

    @ BC:

    I don’t understand why you liked this article to your comment to Beakerj. I am trying to think the best of you, but I am becoming completely repulsed by your comments.

    I don’t understand it, either. And am well & truly sick & tired of the ad hominem attacks, as well.


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    BC

    Sometimes things slip past us. We truly want to avoid political comments. 


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    BC wrote:

    So glad that you’re avoiding any political comments

    My apologies for unintentionally starting that. I was really just trying to explain to Ken how positions in the US have changed and asking if it might be the same for the UK. I didn’t mean to start anything, and I wasn’t endorsing any particular side.


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    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    I wasn’t endorsing any particular side.

    Same here. I was just thinking about comments I’ve heard and read from Evangelical “leaders”.


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    dee wrote:

    BC

    Sometimes things slip past us. We truly want to avoid political comments. 

    I think that this must be almost more than a full time job and then when you are having problems with arthritis of course things slip past you. I think you do marvelous. However it’s easy to jump to conclusions when everything isn’t read. There are some on this blog who are very supportive and are analytical. They go to such efforts to be reasonable and scriptural. Thank you! With such serious topics a little levity is understandable but I have noticed that there are a few who seem to get some joy out of leaping on someone like a pack of dogs.


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    @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    I’ve put ‘Ken’s potted political history of the UK’ under general discussion.