"After much prayer and wise pastoral and professional counsel, the Driscolls believed and agreed that a move to Phoenix was the Lord’s will. Pastor Mark and Grace have had a growing burden for Phoenix and, even though ministry options emerged from other cities, their interest in Phoenix was greatest."
How interesting that the Driscolls have determined (after much prayer) that Phoenix is the place where they should plant a church. Mark and Grace Driscoll have been so burdened by the lost there that they have recently launched The Trinity Church. Why that name? Well, there is a personal reason, which is explained on the church website (see below).
Before Pastor Mark’s wife Grace was born, her mom and dad planted a church called The Trinity Church. Grace was born into that church, grew up and was baptized there, then served in the nursery, food bank, and office as a young girl.
The Trinity Church was also the first evangelical church that Pastor Mark ever attended and ever preached in. It was the church that paid for the Bible
that turned his heart to Jesus, and stayed with him throughout the first decade of his ministry.In 2013, Grace’s father went home to be with the Lord, and Pastor Mark preached his funeral from that same Bible purchased by the church
The Driscolls invited Grace’s mother Linda to be a founding church member of The Trinity Church, along with the Driscoll kids, in honor to the gospel legacy of Grace's family.
Earlier this week The Seattle Times, among others, took notice that there was a glaring omission on the Leadership and Staff page of the church's new website. Here is a screen shot of that information:
Shockingly, Driscoll summarizes his 20-year ministry in just a single sentence and boasts that over 10,000 new Christians were baptized. Here's what we want to know, Mark. How many bodies did you run over with your Mars Hill bus? Notice how Driscoll took a year off to learn, repent, grow, and heal. We'd love to know to whom he repented.
Here is how The Seattle Times summed it up:
Mark Driscoll finally made it official: He’s starting a new church in Phoenix. The culmination of a comeback that has been gaining steam over the past year, the former Mars Hill pastor announced the news of The Trinity Church on Monday by email, Twitter and a new website.
In a folksy video on the site, which begins with a “howdy” from Driscoll, the pastor said he and his wife, Grace, sitting by his side, were “hoping, trusting, praying, planning and also a little” — he made a jokey grimace — “worrying about planting a church here.”
Driscoll also noted that he was “healin’ up” in his new home. And his bio on the site refers to the Driscolls recently facing “the most challenging year of their lives,” one that prompted the pastor to take a year off.
But aside from those remarks, there’s no reference to Driscoll’s troubled and controversial history at Mars Hill. Indeed, there’s no direct mention at all of the megachurch he presided over for 18 years in Seattle, until snowballing allegations of plagiarism, emotional abusiveness and misogyny led him to resign in October 2014.
Warren Throckmorton, a Grove City College professor, has done an incredible job reporting on Mark Driscoll since the plagiarism charges first surfaced. He posts over at Patheos contains a wealth of information on the Driscoll debacle. When news of Driscoll's Phoenix church plant broke, Throckmorton was among the first to report on it. That's why it was no surprise that the CBS affiliate in Phoenix aired a segment yesterday which included his remarks. We are grateful that Channel 5 News publicly called out Driscoll due to his stunning silence on his first church plant. Here is a link to that report:
Controversial pastor wants to start church in the Valley
It is certainly worth noting that it was primarily the internet that brought Mark Driscoll so much name recognition. He was a 'shock jock' preacher who attracted a vast audience of wannabes. Long before most of us became savvy with the world wide web, Driscoll was tickling the ears of his followers through the various websites he had established. Mars Hill Church and the Acts 29 church planting network were glorified by many in the Neo-Cal corner of Christendom. We believe that no other pastor capitalized on using the blogosphere early on like Driscoll. Not only that, Driscoll had an extensive speaking schedule, making appearances at MANY conferences. And now he wants to wipe the slate clean by not mentioning the horrific train wreck that occurred at his now defunct church. Our hearts are still heavy for the thousands and thousands of people who have been hurt by this brash authoritarian.
And we need to remember that there were quite a few high-profile leaders in the Neo-Cal camp that heavily promoted Mark Driscoll, namely: John Piper, Wayne Grudem, Justin Taylor, James MacDonald, and others in The Gospel Coalition (TGC) crowd. Let's not forget that Driscoll was one of the original TGC Council Members.
We'd love to know what these Neo-Cals think about the apostolic leaders who are now propping up Mark Driscoll (see screen shot from the church website).
The governing board includes: Jimmy Evans, Robert Morris, Randall Taylor, and of course, Mark Driscoll.
Not only that, there are quite a few leaders who are praying for the Driscolls. The are listed here. See how many names you recognize.
We will be keeping up with what's going on at this new church plant. While the Driscolls maintain their silence about their first church plant, we are grateful that Mark Driscoll track record and reputation are available right at one's fingertips. Isn't the internet a wonderful research tool?
this won’t end well.
Urgh is all I can muster.
I am going to get in trouble with this……but I looked at the family photo and all I could think was….man, every school I taught at, those girls would get sent to the office for the skirts being too short…sorry, I taught high school too long.
At least there will be plenty of people on the web tracking things at that church and providing good information and warnings. Hopefully, that will keep down the number of people that will eventually be hurt. People in Phoenix should know what they are getting into if they attend.
Urgh indeed! Just so wrong–keep up the social media Deebs– continuing exposure to the truth is the only way to combat the hideous hidden sins in (some of) the Church.
Thank you both for all the work you put into this and your caring hearts for reaching out to many people individually.
Well well well! I spy several ARC bigwigs on that list. I wonder if Trinity Church is taking $$ from ARC
“Welcome! We open our Bibles to learn. We open our lives to love.” –from their website (Tagline after church logo).
Not mentioning Mars Hill Church does not sound very open to me. Guess they are being truthful…about it not being about love š
In other words: move along, there’s nothing to see here.
K.D. wrote:
I agree the skirts are awfully short. One of the problems is the angle the photographer used. It looks like he/she was laying on the ground and shooting up. I guess M.D. wanted to look larger-than-life? The result is that I feel like I’m looking up the skirts of his young daughters. Ick.
Since you get faster going downhill, I’m guessing the Driscoll bus is moving at a good clip now that it is over the Mars Hill and barreling into Phoenix. Watch out, Arizonians. You now have someone far more dangerous than those white-haired snowbirds going 45 in the fast lane.
Driscoll’s in town and his bus is ready to plow you down.
EricL wrote:
Yeah, that’s my first reaction, too……
Oh, good grief. It’s one big incestuous family tree.
Twelfth!
From the post:
I don’t think that’s shocking. I’m sure we could all sum up Driskle’s 20-year ministry in just a single sentence.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
So here’s my entry to the latest TWW competition, then, and I quote the man himself:
On the list of praying people:
Ron Beers ā Senior Vice President and Publisher
Tyndale House Publishers
I’ll bet he’s praying that Mark Driscoll will return the advance Tyndale House paid him. They planned to launch an entire Resurgence book line around that man, and ended up begging for authors to include. I guess no one wanted to be tied to Driscoll.
@ K.D.:
Thanks for the warning, K.D. – I shall go nowhere near their family fotie.
Anyway, it’s nearly midnight in Blighty and I’m off to bed.
Dee – if you’re on this thread, how’re the feet? We’ve been dying to know…
Speaking of arthritic feet, I’m nearly immobile after my practice powerlifting meet. Deadlifted 495, squatted 455, and benched 365, for a total of 1315, or 5.9x bodyweight.
Here’s a doozie :
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2015/12/16/remembering-the-prophecy-about-mark-driscolls-new-church-and-daddy-issues/
Snippet: “The rest of this audio provides some eyebrow raising commentary by Driscoll on what he perceives to be a massive father wound among young men in America. Driscoll refers to himself as a spiritual father and his wife Grace as a spiritual mother. At 45, he seems to view himself as old.”
Somebody, please set a trap.
I remarked to my husband: So Mark Driscoll is starting up a church in Phoenix. Maybe we should move!
Without missing a beat, hubby replies: We already live pretty far from there. I don’t think we need to go further.
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
It’s not the photographer. Not at all. If those girls stood straight and held their fingers straight, you could see tharpt the hem of the skirts are well above where the tips of the girls fingers would be. Definitely a dress code violation in every school I taught at ……… 1st offense, girls go to the office, staff phones parent for appropriate clothes …. 2nd offense, 3 days in ICE….. 3rd offense, 3 day suspension.
Nancy2 wrote:
I went back and looked. You are correct.
1st Offense, change clothes ( brought to school by parent) +letter mailed home.
2nd Offense, 2 days ISS
3rd Offense, 3 days suspension.
Very simlar punishments.
BTW- One last story on dress code violations and I will leave it alone before I get into trouble.
The man who taught for years across the hallway from me sent a young lady to the asst. principal for wearing a skirt that was obscenely short.
Alter that afternoon, the girl’s father was at the school yelling at the teacher across the hall saying…” What were you doing looking?”
I went to the “About Us” page on Driscoll’s church’s site, and it had a bulleted list of stuff that he supposedly believes.
I was stunned to see stuff on it like he believes in ‘lifting people up, not bullying them.’ He believes in ‘loving people’ and rainbows and gum drops.
The guy is a narcissist and a bully who mistreated people horribly at his former church, so his church FAQ page or whatever that was came off like false advertising.
Nancy2 wrote:
But they’re PASTOR’s Daughters, and Rank Hath Its Privileges.
Especially when PASTOR is prone to Pornovisions — “I SEE Things…”
zooey111 wrote:
“If your family tree does not fork…”
“…Pastor Mark and Grace walked with professional and pastoral counsel who have all agreed that they … are ready to return to local church ministry.”
Mark, whoever you are getting “professional and pastoral counsel” from, they are wrong. You are not ready. You have NEVER repented for what you did to people at Mars Hill, and we still don’t know what happened to all that money. You are a narcissistic blowhard who mostly likes to feel manly and smug. Whoever told you you were okay to preach again is wrong, wrong, wrong.
Patch wrote:
I have to say, this has probably put fear in the hearts of other pastors of other churches here in Phoenix. I can think of a few off the top of my head, and I am sure they are wondering where Driscoll will plant. Will it be in North Phoenix/North Scottsdale, near that Desert Ridge Marketplace mailbox, or will it be somewhere else? Because churches headed up by celebrity pastors–they don’t bring unchurched people to Jesus. Instead, they scoop up people from other churches with the not-so-famous pastors. Because people want to be involved with the next big thing, and what is bigger than a well-known charismatic pastor in a new church plant?
Also, that “We open our Bibles” thing reminds me of the chant Joel Osteen has at his church in Houston at the beginning of his sermons. I have to wonder if Mark’s going to have a similar chant.
The saddest part was the list… my heart has a deep thud. WOW, simply wow.
WHY, someone please explain to me WHY these guys are just shoving this guy into our throats. What is the end-game, what is profit for these guys. To say the least… does PHX even need another mega. Is it that if they stick together, that what ever they do will be protected by the tribe or herd? They can’t defend against the internet and the flow of information by themselves.
There are guys on that list that took Ted Haggard to the wood shed when he had is time in the lime light. Again I say there is little comparison AND what makes it worse is the fact they are lighting the rocket to resurrect this guy. WHY!?
mirele wrote:
This is so true, none of these mega-church guys are winning new converts. Instead they are poaching from other churches with the use of glitz and glamour….
@ Heather:
LOL!!
The church logo is what really jumps out at me. A very large crown signifying…what exactly? In a normal church the intention might be to to imply Jesus is lord. Here though, I’m suspicious that this lordship will be defined and interpreted by Driscoll for the purpose of establishing himself as the king over his new flock. I don’t know whether to feel sorry for tge members of his new flock or annoyed that it wouldn’t occur to them to use Google.
Heather wrote:
LOL! I love it!
Looking at the list of leaders praying for Driscoll snd his church, I was very surprised to see Les and Leslie Parrott. I’ve read one or two of their marriage books, and they’ve always seemed egalitarian to me.
mirele wrote:
Given that Driscoll will likely engage in the sheep rustlin, local pastors should do an education series on wolves. Sorry for mixing metaphors.
@ mirele:
Phoenix has more churches than a skinny cat has tapeworms. In these times, and with a dwindling pool of revenue dollars, Driscoll’s gambit may not pan out.
I think that you and Bill M have pointed out convincingly that the only way he can hit pay dirt is if he does some sheep rustlin’.
Hey Mark, if you’re reading this look up the word contrition.
Grace reminds me of the POW situation where they blinked “torture” in morse code. She must be mentally blinking “help me this guy is crazy.”
One of the pastors endorsing/praying for Driscoll’s new church is Josh McPherson from Grace City Church in Wenatchee, WA.
McPherson is the Regional director of the US Western Region of Acts 29. Driscoll formerly was the top dog in that para-church business. You can bet the friendship of Driscoll and McPherson goes way back.
McPherson’s church is presently engaged in an 8 week marriage series featuring Mark and Grace Driscoll’s book “Real Marriage.”
http://www.gracecitychurch.com/marriagestrong/
Ironic is the fact that my wife is from Wenatchee and I spent 2+ years in that lovely town attending the first of my trio of bad churches. The church business manager was a crook who embezzled all the church’s money, was involved with some shady mafia characters, and served time in prison.
I did manage to make some good friends while I was attending the Bethesda church and college, a few whom I am still in contact with.
The wife of one of my friends “unfriended” me on Facebook a few years ago. I had linked to some information exposing Driscoll’s corruption and she made a comment that Christians shouldn’t speak negatively of their fellow believers. I responded that, judging from the fruit of his life, I was not at all certain Driscoll was a Christian.
That was it for me, 34 years of friendship down the drain!
I found out today that my ex-Facebook friend attends Grace City Church!
I forgot to supply the link showing McPherson is the Western Regional director of Acts 29. Here you go:
http://www.acts29.com/network/west-us/
Also, if you would like to read a bit more of my “education” through membership in bad churches, you can read my blog here:
https://thouarttheman.org/2015/12/19/finding-church/
Interesting to me is the fact that a celebrity Christian leader once again disregards his own established rules or practices.
I believe all these neo-Calvs would agree that a church plant (or a new church) comes from an established church. The new leader will have been “vetted;” been found to meet the qualifications of an elder and sent with the blessing of the sending church.
In Driscoll’s case, however, having clearly demonstrated he does not meet the requirements of an elder, he disregards past practice and sends himself out. He manages to find a handful of pastors in his debt, or as corrupt as he is, to “pray” for him. Whether they realize it or not, they are being used to lend legitimacy to Driscoll.
Mahaney of Sovereign Grace uses his cronies in the same manner.
It is despicable conduct on the part of all involved in the charade.
Unfortunately, I have come to expect it from a pack of money-grubbing charlatans who call themselves pastors and expect you to support them and submit to them.
I pray the average Christian wakes up to this nonsense and steers well clear.
Here’s a post on why the church needs to air its dirty laundry. Its about the Challenger disaster and Ronald Reagan speaking about how we don’t cover things up and hide our mistakes. It was a challenge to the Soviet Union. Why the Bible is all about airing our dirty laundry.
wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/02/06/why-the-modern-evangelical-church-needs-to-air-its-dirty-laundry-lessons-from-the-challenger-disaster-and-ronald-reagans-call-for-soviet-transparency/
As soon as the rock and roll and light show starts his “church” will bring in the new members looking for a newer higher level. These guys know what today’s hipster crowd want and it will be successful. Just wait and see.
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
I’m not sure where that ranks in direct comparison to my second very near miss on the 7a/+ problem at the climbing wall tonight (probably apples vs oranges) but it sounds good!
#SportingWartburgers
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
I hate that book as far as it goes for marriage advice. It is full of rigid gender roles and shaming. Plus, that is not even talking about how it became a “best seller.”
@ Bill M:
Tis an effective and well-applied mix.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
If they were willing to cut you off over a position that they were holding that is explicitly unbiblical, do you really think they were ever a friend?
Divorce Minister wrote:
As $210 grand in Tithe money to Result Source to juice the book?
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
I read “top dog” as “top dong”.
Given the guy’s fixation on sermon subject matters…
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
“All Animals are Equal —
BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS!”
— G.Orwell, Animal Farm
“Morals are for men — not…GODS…”
— Second Star Trek pilot, “Where No Man has Gone Before”
Law Prof wrote:
Friends??? Are they even Christians? Borg drones, users.
I read all of this stuff, and it makes me so thankful that I have been thus far protected by my rural isolation. These people go for the more populated areas where there are more people to mislead and rob blind, financially and spiritually. Hey, Mark Dever left Madisonville, KY for the DC area! But, I’m afraid it is a creeping disease that will eventually infiltrate the rural areas.
Bill wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNEZNpjiaPY
My answer to Mark Driscoll and all his cronies who make mega bucks off their congregants etc is this. There was a song that was popular back in the 70’s. This is one of the verses. I don’t remember who wrote it. “If you could see where he brought me from, to where I am today, you would the reason why I love him so. You can take this world’s wealth and riches. I don’t need earth’s fame. It’s my desire to be like him.” It would change the world if more so called “pastors” had this as their motto. It’s not about who I am to the world, but what I am to Christ. As to what I am in Christ, I am his daughter, and he is my heavenly father. I don’t need Driscoll, Wilson, Patterson, Piper or anybody else to tell me any different. I am secure in my salvation because Jesus loves me.
Nancy2 wrote:
It has already hit many of them. The healthiest church (had its issues, but generally people loved Jesus and “leaders” kind of got out of peoples’ way and had an attitude of “How can we help?”) I ever attended was in a major metro, the three rather vicious little cults I foolishly was sucked into were from towns of 11,000 and 30,000.
Law Prof wrote:
There is a 9Marks church in Russellville, KY – about 25 miles and a 30 minute drive from where I live.
Russellville pop.: 7,200. There is also one in Hopkinsville, Ky: pop. 32,000. My location is somewhere in between those 2 towns. I am surrounded, but I will not surrender. REMEMBER THE ALAMO!
Isn’t Mark DeMoss(one of the prayer guys for Driscoll) and identified as the founder of DeMoss Public Relations the same firm used by Franklin Graham and recently involved with the Abedinis? I’m getting dizzy here!! All these connections!
@ nancyjane:
Din, ding, ding, ding, ding!
Winnah, winnah, chicken dinnah!
Harley wrote:
They’ll say they agree with you, but secretly, that’s the attitude they hate. That’s why they come up with these ridiculous teachings about people submitting to church leadership. They want power for themselves, and if they have to use God (use as in take advantage of), then they’ll do so. Talk about playing with fire!
While we are talking about Mark DeMoss, check this out:
http://www.liberty.edu/trustees/index.cfm?PID=5654
@ okrapod:
He was on the Mitt Romney campaign team, too.
@ Nancy2:
Let’s see if he lines up behind Jerry Jr. politically.
okrapod wrote:
If there’s enough money involved ……….
okrapod wrote:
GOOD GRIEF!! There is not one female on ANY of their boards. And, yes, I’m screaming but at no one in particular.
@ Bridget:
PS – I wish someone would point this out to all the polital nominees who seek endorsements from this university. What a chauvinistic school. And people want an endorsement from them???
TNancy2 wrote:
Man, the Alamo didn’t turn out so good….and neither did San Jacinto for one of my ggg-uncles….( however my ggg-grandfather received his land-grant.)
Bridget wrote:
If you want to really scream think about how large they are (allegedly the largest private christian u. on the planet) and check out how many alumni that might be and check out their stance on women and note their creation science center (which, btw is rather pathetic for a school that size). Never forget Jerry Sr’s apparent lack of commitment to separation of church and state, at least as I saw it. I note frequently how many of the so-called far right claim to be Liberty alums.
If MD can get to be one of the approved operatives of that system (much less a favorite, God forbid) then he will be nearly impossible to take down. And some of those ideas he promotes will be nearly impossible to counteract. That is just my opinion.
Interesting to note that none of Trinty Church’s ‘local’ team comes from Phoenix. Has all the sincerity of a 3 dollar bill.
@ Jack:
Should have read ‘authenticity of a 3 dollar bill’.
Bridget wrote:
Liberty University. It’s very name is an acronym for it’s beliefs and teachings
K.D. wrote:
Yeah. Is it obvious that I’m a bit concerned?
Jack wrote:
Invasion of the Church Body Snatchers!
K.D. wrote:
If you’re going to have your daughter wear thigh highs for the family church photo then your skirt must be higher than your fingertips.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
I found these reactions to be disingenuous. Ask next time if they agree with the negative assessment or not. Typically they disagree and are using the “shouldnāt speak negatively” as a dodge. They can then excuse the inexcusable and simultaneously hold themselves as morally superior all at the same time, this is quite a trick when it comes to excusing Driscoll’s behavior. It is also contrary to carefully determining who is fit to be an elder.
There may be an exception out there somewhere, but I’ve found everyone violates the “shouldnāt speak negatively” decree and I am fairly certain your “ex” facebook friend speaks ill of someone, the question is who. When I stand before the pearly gates and am asked what I did in response to injustice I hope to have more to offer than “I didn’t say anything negative”.
Jen wrote:
Tee hee ….. Idea for a reality TV show: “The Driscolls meet the Duggars!”
okrapod wrote:
Not really – mine too.
Katie wrote:
Right now TTC is not listed as part of ARC. But Gateway gives away millions to “friends of Robert’s” to fund their local churches. Back in 2009, Robert gave Randy Bezet, another ARC bigwig, millions so he could complete his big new Bayside Church in Bradenton, FL. Robert had literally met Randy on a golf course ONCE before immediately agreeing to gift him millions. He knew nothing of the man or his ministry. Randy started building his new $7.5M building but ran out of money half way through due to a downturn in the economy. He had an existing church building, he just wanted a larger more state of the art one like his brother Rick had in AR. Robert used GW tithe money to help Randy finish his new building and he never told his tithers about it. They still think their money went to real missions.
.
Gateway at that same time had to take a $20M loan from Daystar to finish their own Taj Mahal, but they have to give away 15% of contributions to “missions” so they just paid Randy out of that. Randy is NOT a missionary and his church is in a well churched affluent area. Randy is ARC big muck Rick Bezet’s little brother and Rick could have paid for this out of his own big mega budget if he wanted to but why bother when Robert Morris will do it for you? Plus, avid boater and golfer Robert now gets to fly down with the other Executive pastors to go swordfishing, yachting and golfing in FL any time they want and all at tither’s expense because they now need to “cross pollinate” with Randy’s church. Of course, Robert needs to bring his entire family on these “stewardship business trips”.
.
As another example, this December Robert had to take on another $20M in debt to buy his new Dallas Campus yet at the same time he was the largest supporter of Ravi Zacharias’ brand new $15M headquarters building. That building was paid for in CASH! Ravi’s financials show he needed probably close to $8-10M in help on that, and he listed no other major supporters. Ravi still needs to dump millions more into major renovations and it sounds like Gateway is still helping him with that.
.
Ravi is turning this five story building into a state of the art broadcast studio so he can enter the Televangelist biz. Ravi and his family have taken their compensation up in the last few years to over a million dollars a year so they are officially entering the land of Prosperity Jesus. Ravi engages in speculative real estate investments and flatly lies about his travel schedule and teaching credentials. He is not a doctor. He was not a visiting scholar at Oxford. When he speaks at places like Yale, Princeton, Harvard and Cambridge it is to local Christian groups, not as a scholar brought in by the Universities. He has far more in common with Robert Morris than people realize. Gateway is paying Ravi the millions for two reasons:
1) Ravi’s new HQ building is in the wealthiest area in Atlanta, surrounded by four outstanding golf clubs and country clubs. If you’ve ever watched The Chrisley’s, Ravi will now be residing in the exact same neighborhood where fashion icons the Chrisleys (the Kardashians of the South) live and shop.
2) Ravi sells his credibility to Robert Morris, a man who just this week claimed that the Apostle Paul founded the Pentecostal Movement in the First Century and that God literally (and audibly) quotes Robert and personally recommends pastors follow Robert’s teachings as they are superior to His teachings, as found in the Bible. How else could Robert Morris, of all people, become a featured speaker at Ravi’s Founders Conference? People need to pray for Ravi and his family.
.
Mark doesn’t need any ARC money. He’s got Gateway’s money. Robert announced on Tuesday that Gateway gives away $1.5 M to “missions” every single month. Mark announced a month ago that he and Grace had received more abundant financial support this past year than ever before. Folks can do the math. BTW Robert Morris has NEVER, not once, mentioned the name of Mark Driscoll in a weekend service or in any other general GW announcement or communication. The average Gateway member has no idea about Robert using their tithes to support this abusive tyrant. They still think that their $1.5M per month is going to support Global Missions because that’s what Robert tells them.
.
Nevertheless, the reality is that Gateway tithers ARE funding Driscoll’s return and they should be ashamed of themselves. But let’s face it. What could possibly shame people whose big upcoming “mission trip” is a trip to the French Riviera? For real. Gateway is paying for a large group to go to the French Riviera this summer, which is the wealthiest community on earth, where mega celebrities and European Royalty vacation. This is where the story from the Bond film Casino Royale takes place and was filmed.
The place is loaded with the poshest casinos, the trendiest nightclubs, the most expensive resorts on earth, the finest restaurants and topless beaches as far as the eye can see. What will these “devout missionaries” be doing? Savoring the “chance to experience a life changing trip! We’ll work on a (vague) citywide community project, share the love of Jesus and enjoy Euro Cup soccer and the beauty of France.” This is 15 full days on the French Riviera “sharing the love of Jesus” at casinos and nude beaches in high style at tither’s expense.
.
Tossing a tosser like Driscoll a few mill is chump change. Fortunately, our weary “missionaries” will return in time to rest up for the next 15 day trip two weeks later to go visit the finest sites in Berlin. Apparently, those pagan Germans need help understanding the Bible, but only in between castle hopping and beer festivals. Oh the harsh life of those missionaries in the killing fields of Scottsdale, Florida, Atlanta, Berlin and the French Riviera. It’s like something right out of a James Michener novel. Or would that be a Jackie Collins novel?
Ten years ago I worked as a youth intern at a Baptist church in Amarillo. The preacher, who’s old enough to be my dad, introduced Calvinism to the church in the eighties, so while it was Calvinist, it wasn’t quite neo-cal, yet. I remember a hand full of people really liking Driscol and that little crowd of celebrities who were really starting to blossom. Meanwhile, Jimmy Evans was teaching down the road at Trinity Fellowship, the cool church in town. The folks I worked with and went to church with all considered TFC a cult because they spoke in tongues and they pressured students to burn anything secular, especially cds. All that to say, ten years ago I never would have predicted these two would get together. Also, there’s a weird bit of hometown pride, “local cult leader makes it big.”
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Nice! Climbing is brilliant. When I lived in the blue-ridge area I used to do a lot of hiking and a bit of repelling. I think I prefer sport that allows one to compete against one’s self.
We’d love to know to whom he repented.
My guess? No one. “Repentance” is the evangelical equivalent to Hollywood’s rehab. It is sterile and impersonal – a sort of meaningless penance that follows the rules without having to change anything.
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Repentance, in its purest sense, means “to turn away from”. He most definitely turned away from Mars Hill and the church body.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
All of their kids would blend in at our county’s middle and high schools, where the girls show some skin and the boys cover up. That’s just the local way of conforming, and I think it vaguely reflects oversize athletic clothes for boys and sleek pop star clothes for girls. I live in the other half of the country, though.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
A good analogy. Something they can check off so they can rejoin polite society.
nancyjane wrote:
Mark DeMoss is the King of church cover-ups. His speciality is “crisis management” and he was consulting for Mark at the time of MD’s unexpected resignation. Criticized for taking tithes to help Mark evade accountability, DeMoss claims that piece of work was done pro bono. But let’s face it, having Mark Drsicoll as a client when your specialty is handling PR disasters assures constant billings in the future. Helping Driscoll launch this new church is a great long term investment for DeMoss.
Another tie to Graham is DeMoss’ protege for years, Lawrence Swicegood, who now is the Head of Media for Gateway. Lawrence is currently taking some time away from GW to run Franklin’s Decision America Tour and thus getting to help out on the Saeed spin as well. Keeping it all in the family.
Sarcasm to follow:
I am just thankful that these churches are not liturgical or hierarchical or state churches or derived from state churches because if they were they might fall into chicanery, deceit and abuse.
Sarcasm off:
I am thinking that shady dealings are in the human heart prior to being in human systems, whatever the system.
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Something that I’m sure is common to climbing and powerlifting – you’ve probably found this too – is that they can be done both alone and with friends. Back in my Cambridge days, a group of us used to head north to the Peak District to tackle the limestone and gritstone crags there. We’d pick a route that was slightly too hard for all of us, and then keep trying it until we’d all done it. At one level, it’s just you and the rock (or the weight) – nobody can climb/lift it for you. But that doesn’t stop you doing it together!
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Yes! I love that aspect of both sports.
Nancy2 wrote:
Just as Bob Jones U was the pilgrimage site for GOP hopefuls in the past.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
The Quiverfull co-founder I mentioned in a different post–the one I knew while growing up–was a Bob Jones student, as were one or two of his siblings.
If a girl was caught holding hands with a boy, she was shunned, forced to eat alone, forbidden to talk even to her roommate. They called the practice “socializing.”
Friend wrote:
Any such “socializing” imposed on the boy she was holding hands with?
okrapod wrote:
Instead, they often either 1) collapse after the founding minister leaves, or 2) hand the church off in royal succession, like Papa Doc to Baby Doc, or the Kims: Il-Sung to Jong-Il to Jong-Un.
Victorious wrote:
I don’t know details, but I’m sure the discipline was less severe. Maybe just democratic socialism.
Friend wrote:
Well, I’m sure it was all the girl’s fault, anyway.
Nancy2 wrote:
A saying that was, for some reason, scissored from the newspaper and taped to the frame of my mother’s high school picture: “A lady is a woman who makes it easy for a man to be a gentleman.”
Squicked me out at an early age.
Nancy2 wrote:
Yep…it always irked me when “getting pregnant” was looked at as shameful for the girl and the boy got a “sowing wild oats” pass. grrrr…
Hopefully enough Christians will have heard of him and the debacle at Mars Hill to stay well away.
Having read the truly troubling things he said on a preaching tour in Scotland one has to ask oneself if he is either mentally not well, or does he suffer from some kind of un-clean spirit?
Seriously troubling and of course we have to be praying for him, his wife and family.
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
I think if the girls had worn black stockings or leggins the length of their skirts wouldn’t be so noticeable. But let’s face it, there’s a lot more trouble brewing at MD’s new church stint than short skirts! š
Clarissa wrote:
Yes, those do seem to be the only alternatives that I can see….
Darlene wrote:
You didn’t teach high school for 30 years. š
I would have spotted that skirt coming out of the parking lot at 100 paces….man, old habits never die….
And you’re right, I am glad he set up shop in Arizona and not say, Houston….
Maybe we should write our own version of the Frequently Asked Questions on the “church” website. Because I think there are questions that are asked more frequently than the soundbite questions they answer. Like, “Why did you leave your last church?”. And “Jesus gave us a vision that we should avoid the ambush,” is not an adequate answer.
Looking at the photos of the staff families, and the kids, I can only hope that things will go better for them than I suspect that they will.
@ K.D.:
Yep. I checked the on line info for our local public school system. The overall requirement is ‘no short shorts of skirts’ but each school is allowed to make its own rules as long as the conform to the system rules. Some schools wear uniforms. I checked with the ‘premier and elite’ high school web site, and the rule for skirts is, not shorter than mid thigh. Apparently from ‘the rules’ we have a problem with cleavage too, but MD has a way to go before they face that problem.
okrapod wrote:
I sent a senior to the office one morning – she was wearing a backless top that tied behind the neck and at the waist. The top didn’t show cleavage, but it showed her entire bare back and was quite obvious that she was not wearing a bra.
GSD wrote:
What worries me is ……. what are they teaching their children? Are they teaching their boys that they are to demand obedience from and be served by the girls? Are they teaching their girls that their primary purpose in this world is to serve boys, in whatever way the boys desire?
I read a portion of one of MD’s sermons where he bragged that while his boys were out in the yard wrestling, one of his girls made a sandwich and took it out to one of the boys. Yep, da man ‘o gawd is raisin’ them girls right!
Nancy2 wrote:
Let me tell you the short skirts are the worst. Espcially when they are sitting in desks and when you are standing in the front….and are NOT wearing under attire. I moved my podium out of ‘ harm’s way’ on a regular basis.
There was a list on the website with some points to consider. The last two were these.
Nothing beats people meeting Jesus
Vision requires provision
I don’t think linking these two were accidental, nor was it accidental that $ was the last one to be listed. The last thing listed is the most likely to be remembered.
Driscoll’s vision is cental as always.
Where are you seeing the pictures of his family? I don’t see a link in the article above, nor pictures at the church website.
Nancy2 wrote:
I haven’t seen The Photo everyone’s talking about. But based on the comments, in a “Driscolls meet Duggars” TV show, we’d be hearing the word “Nike!!” every two minutes or so. It’d get monotonous in a hurry.
Bridget wrote:
The Trinity Church link –
Who We are
Local Ministry Leaders
@ Victorious:
Thanks! I had read the “who we are” page, but the staff link was a bit burried. Maybe viewing their website by phone is a bit different.
I took a quick look around this morning at church-without being too conspicuous I hope. We have everything from old ladies with pearls through business casual through doing the best they can under the circumstances while bravely carrying on, but the only person who was inappropriate was one teen that her mother was ‘enduring.’ The rest of that age group that I happened to see were obviously not trying to drag the world into the worship service. But MD and his crowd seem to be trying to do just that.
The high school kids use the word ‘representing’ a lot. I can’t help but wonder what the Driscolls are representing.
Victorious wrote:
Now THAT came close to being a spontaneous haiku.
Bridget wrote:
Money, Power, and Sex.
Nancy2 wrote:
Including being penis homes(TM).
“ME MAN! YOU WOMAN! RAWR!”
Friend wrote:
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
(Somehow PRAISE THE LOORD! doesn’t seem to fit with the above three…)
LT wrote:
“Head of Media” or “Minister of Propaganda”?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Lol! That might explain why Gateway does so much “mission work” in Berlin. They certainly do work the video propaganda.
is all this name using, name searching, googling serving to drive up D’s publicity power quotient?
was the promo video all by design (to stir up a publicity hornets’ nest)?
what’s the most savvy way to bring awareness of the corruption & crime of the situation past, & the corruption & danger of the situation present & future?
what’s the most savvy way to motivate those with influence and a sober conscience to take a stand on right & wrong concerning Christian leaders’ conduct? to raise the bar? to stir them up out of timidity.
LT wrote:
Josef Goebbels WAS quite the Spinmeister.
Not quite up to the level of Stalin’s anonymous Spinmeisters, but close.
Bridget wrote:
“Most cults are started so the cult leader can (1) Get Rich, (2) Get Laid, or (3) Both.”
— my old D&D Dungeonmaster
And sometimes you find a cult that’s founded so the cult leader can go after POWER. Like Sun Myung Moon or Elron Hubbard. Now THOSE are the truly dangerous ones.
The Trinity Church website has a FAQ section with this (my bold):
Q: Is The Trinity Church Generationally Focused?
āWe are a multi-generational church that welcomes people from all stages of life, reflecting the fact that Phoenix is a city of āfour kindsā:
1. A city where people attend college to get their degree
2. A city where people move to start their career and build their resume as a single professional
3. A city where people move once they marry and want to buy a house and start having children
4. A city where people move after they have raised their family
When a city is primarily in one category, it has a difficult time being a multi-generational church. Because of the nature of Phoenix, The Trinity Church will be multi-generational with an emphasis on non-Christians and young families.ā
My interpretation of what this REALLY means:
āWhile Trinity Church says it will be multi-generational, Trinity Church really does not want to waste its time with you if are a Christian above the age of 40, or single, or have no children, or if you actually have the wisdom, experience, and Biblical knowledge to challenge anything its leadership tells you. But, if you are not a Christian, or are busy young parents, Trinity Church will be your spiritual father and mother (aka Mark and Grace)āand as any good children, all you have to do is listen and obey.ā
Deb Willi wrote:
Ding, Ding, Ding…..we have a winner….People 40+ need not apply( or attend.)
Pretty much people over 55 really do not exist.
Deb Willi wrote:
So nobody was ever born in Phoenix? There are only purpose-driven new arrivals and future babies?
This church really doesn’t want to grow with care in an established community, does it?
@ nancyjane:
As you know, you can’t spell “prayer” without PR.
Deb Willi wrote:
“PSI CORPS IS MOTHER.
PSI CORPS IS FATHER.”
— Babylon-5
Sooooo … what is it exactly that these praying pastors want to see in Driscoll’s unrepentant comeback? Do they feel that the church needs more potty-mouth preaching, porno marriage books, literary plagiarism, distortions of the “grace” message, complementarian abuses, fiscal irresponsibility, a new band of young rebellious Driscollites released on America? What in his former ministry qualified Driscoll to be a pastor? Why expose the Body of Christ to the uncertainties of another Driscoll run? Why does any ministry leader in their right spiritual mind feel that Driscoll deserves a pulpit?
K.D. wrote:
This is an unspoken strategic demographic of New Calvinist church planters within SBC. Multi-generational to them really means Millennials and Generation-Xers … Baby Boomers need not attend.
2 Comments not approved.
Max wrote:
Maybe they are trying to form their own version of T4G: T4PG – Together for Prosperity Gospel?
LT wrote:
Trust me on this one…that IS NOT true.
I don’t like anything going on here with these folks… I’m not an ARC fan either. RB/NLC budget is nothing near Gateway’s. I’ve seen the NLC budget and where it goes, they don’t have money to just give away like you mentioned. I was in a meeting where the story of Randy’s church was eventually paid for…yes it was paid off by one person and I think the total bill was more like 15mil.
As far as Morris being some great ARC influence…WRONG. IMO you will never see Morris submit to any organization, including ARC. Gateway is a specie unto itself. Yes they rub shoulders…I think that is it.
Max wrote:
A cut of the take?
Max wrote:
Because they’re not over the hill and can tithe longer.
And they have more energy and less discernment.
“Give me your children and I will make them mine. You will pass away, but they will remain Mine.”
— A.Hitler, cult leader
Speaking of the Super Bowl, I liken the silence of prominent New Calvinist leaders regarding Driscoll’s unrepentant comeback to the lack of news media coverage of Peyton Manning’s wrongdoings over the years. Some sports commentators have also reported that Manning is a Christian. His words after the game last night: “I’m going to go drink some Buds and thank the man upstairs” … the man upstairs?! … a Christianity I suppose most of America can identify with. Both in church and out of church, the world just don’t want their idols to fall. So put Driscoll back in the pulpit and Manning as a spokesman for Budweiser.
Speaking of the Super Bowl, I went out for pizza around the time the game got going.
THE STREETS WERE STRAIGHT OUT OF THE OMEGA MAN!
Earlier, A. Stacy said:
“There are guys on that list that took Ted Haggard to the wood shed when he had his time in the lime light. Again I say there is little comparison AND what makes it worse is the fact they are lighting the rocket to resurrect this guy. WHY!?”
But remember, Haggard’s case involved gay sex with a prostitute and illegal drug use, which of course are far worse than the abuse of hundreds of sheep in Christ’s flock.
@ NJ:
We had a guest speaker at our church yesterday. He used the word “sheep” in his sermon a lot. He even used the phrase “dumb sheep”. But, it wasn’t “you are like dumb sheep sometimes”, it was “we are like dumb sheep sometimes”. And it wasn’t “you need me as your good shepherd”, it was “we need Jesus as our Good Sheperd”. I have to tip my hat to him for that much. I have heard this man in the past, and I am also under the impression that he is a very humble man and he sees his wife as his equal in body and in spirit.
Max wrote:
Yeah, that caught my attention, too.
But, I can’t be a Peyton Manning fan, anyway. I am a Kentuckian. It is a sin for a Kentuckian to be a fan of anyone who has ever played for the University of Tennessee – or Duke either, for that matter. Sorry, Dee.
Nancy2 wrote:
Oh my! Do you reckon he will make it in 21st century ministry?
Nancy2 wrote:
Unfortunately, millions of youth at church Super Bowl parties around the country also took note of that and will now aspire to be Peyton-like Christians, thanking God and Budweiser when they say their prayers.
Max wrote:
He’s in his late 60’s. So, partly because of that, he surprised me! He used to be a church pastor, but he is now retired and does not preach on a full time basis. If he were under the age of 50 and seeking full-time ministry, I think he’d have to change his ways, or change his religion!
Nancy2, that’s always a good thing to find in a pastor, retired or otherwise.
“But, I canāt be a Peyton Manning fan, anyway. I am a Kentuckian. It is a sin for a Kentuckian to be a fan of anyone who has ever played for the University of Tennessee ā or Duke either, for that matter. Sorry, Dee.”
LOL… That sounds as bad as the rivalry between UK and Louisville.
@ Max:
How about thanking God FOR Budweiser!! Oops!! Just kidding folks!! Well,kind of!!
@ Nancy2:
“But, it wasnāt āyou are like dumb sheep sometimesā, it was āwe are like dumb sheep sometimesā. And it wasnāt āyou need me as your good shepherdā, it was āwe need Jesus as our Good Sheperdā. I have to tip my hat to him for that much”
+++++++++++++++
I still think you would have been better off stopping for eggs benedict while on a long bike ride.
elastigirl wrote:
Make that a thermos of coffee and a ham and cheese sandwich while on a long hike through the woods and I’m with ya! I feel closer to God in the woods than I do in the SBC churches, anyway.
nancyjane wrote:
Kiss your wife/family , drink Bud, thank God…..what a pitchman to Middle-America.
Nancy2 wrote:
I am convinced much like Elvis in concert, Jesus has left most SBC Churches long ago….and that’s sad…
After his sermon about “Jesus making mistakes” and the total collapse of Mars Hill Church, Inc, I am relieved that he has been exposed for the false teacher that he is.
Driscoll is simply a part of fulfilling the prophecy of 2 Tim 4:3-4:
“For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, [4] and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.”
SOMEBODY has to do it. I can’t think of anyone more worthy than Driscoll.
Max wrote:
Manning is a class act period. Have we gotten so offendable these days that every statement, every reference, no matter how innocuous, gets immediate blow-back?
Much ink has been slathered both in print and in bytes on how bad the bad old days were. Butcha’ know what? In some ways we were way more tolerant back then.
@ Muff Potter:
Better Peyton Manning than Tim Tebow, for me (and i don’t watch pro football).
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Ah – that’s a Gothardism that infiltrated throughout churchdom.
Allowing an ever-multiplying crop of ever-enlarging mushrooms of abuse to grow in the darkness.
After the earlier scandal regarding his brother’s sexcapades, Bill came up with more stringent teachings on ‘bad reports’ twisting the Scripture regarding the spies Moses sent into Canaan. For those who adhere to his teaching on this topic, the ability for the hoi poloi to ever address *anything* within churchdom is completely neutered.
OTOH, God, Who is no respecter of persons, has filled both Old and New Testaments with examples of believers who spoke negatively about other believers.
Publicly.
By name.
In detail.
To every/any one who would listen.
When the greatest sin is publicly addressing sin, then there is no sin – no matter how heinous – that can ever really be addressed.
Nothing mo’ righteous than those who are mo’ righteous than God…
Nancy2 wrote:
As a UT graduate, this made me chuckle.
BL wrote:
The same Got Hard who now has his own scandal regarding his sexcapades with underage interns?
K.D. wrote:
I disagree, just slightly. Jesus didn’t leave the Building – the Building left Jesus.
Yesterday, my church showed a video of our head minister interviewing Christian writer Lysa TerKeurst. During the interview, she referenced a verse in the Bible (I can’t remember which verse) where God says woe to an obstinate nation who carries out plans that are not his. When I heard that, I instantly thought of the neo-Cals because there is no way that their way of doing things (authoritarian, anti-woman, spiritual abuse, take-overs, etc.) is God’s way. Someone else had noted an unclean spirit. It’s possible, an unclean spirit taking up residence in a “home” that is dirty with pride, the lust for power and money, etc.
patriciamc wrote:
It’s a good spirited love/hate thing, isn’t it?
How could he leave out the part about demon trials? (He is going to conduct demon trials, isn’t he?)
Mark Driscollās Demons ā the false doctrine of the Mars Hill demon trials
numo wrote:
For me too numes, I’ll pick Manning over Tebow six-ways-to-sunday.
Nancy2 wrote:
Yep. And, I might add, I haven’t (yet) left the SBC, but the SBC I have known for 60 years left me.
TNancy2 wrote:
I’ll agree…
Max wrote:
And it why I no longer associate with, or call myself SBC….or even Baptist anymore…
Max wrote:
Not all Christians see having a beer to be a sin. The Bible speaks of being drunk as being sin, not necessarily the drinking of a beverage with alcohol. If that were always a sin, better stay away from cough syrup and vanilla extract! Now, it may not be WISE to drink (such as if alcoholism is a strong factor in one’s family line) but Jesus himself turned water into wine, and He drank wine with His disciples.
People love to make hard and fast rules where the Bible does not. We have to follow Him, not a rule book. For example, I have a conviction that I am not to drink soda. Obviously that does not mean I think all you soda drinkers are sinning.
Nancy2 wrote:
That was the ONE thing that would get you bounced out of my suburban Houston high school in the later 1970s, and that was no undergarments. This was a problem in the era of the tube top and the spaghetti-strap granny dress. Of course none of my classmates were brave enough to wear tube tops, but someone was always getting sent home for spaghetti straps.
Now, back on the subject: Some of you know that I work for an evil, too big to fail financial institution. I was thinking about this today. I can’t imagine what the Monday morning conversations are like in these megachurches. Counting the money, counting the heads, trying to decide what worked, what didn’t, what they’re going to preach about next Sunday to keep ’em coming in, on and on. I don’t think megachurch pastors and staff get the training we do, where we’re not supposed to recommend products to people just willy-nilly just to get their money. Megachurch leaders aren’t constrained by our ethics. They want their 10 percent cut.
bunny wrote:
Oh my! I wonder if the man upstairs knew about that!!
mirele wrote:
The same laws that apply to the financial institutions don’t apply to the Men O’ Gawd!
I haven’t been back on this thread to read all the posts since I was last here, whenever that was, sorry.
But I am here with a new link!
Divisions emerge over Mark Driscoll’s new church
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/divisions.emerge.over.mark.driscolls.new.church/79032.htm
@ Daisy:
Thanks Daisy for the link to the CT article on Driscoll. Laura Turner, Religion News Service, provides the best advice “He should find a new job for a while; one that doesn’t involve leading anyone or taking a paycheck from a church.” And getting around to repenting for past sins would also help.
Nancy2 wrote:
I suspect Jesus did pretty much the same thing when the religious noise got too much to take … except he probably didn’t eat a ham sandwich ;^)
Max wrote:
That should be easy. Didn’t Driscoll tell Janet Mefford, or another interviewer, “I have a degree in communications from one of the top programs in the United States. So does my wife, Grace.” (from Washington State Univ?) With credentials like that, potential employers should be beating a path to their door.
Max wrote:
Okay, a fish sandwich. ….
Driscoll has some competition:
Hillsong to Open 16th Global Campus Sunday in Arizona
http://www.christianpost.com/news/hillsong-church-brian-houston-opens-16th-global-campus-sunday-arizona-157942/
Jimmy Evans denies the trinity! Check out his preaching. Ironic isn’t it? Robert Morris has dreadfully bad theology including blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Check out his “Amazing Works” teachings.
Driscoll has finally slid down the slope to full-flowered counterfeit christianity.
Watch out.
It”s a good thing I discovered this thread and this site. Regarding Mark Driscoll: I have **always** been highly suspicious of him, but I didn’t keep up to date with his “story”, hence I knew/know nothing about what happened with Driscoll and Mars Hill…I can believe, however,that it was a barn-burner of a debacle.
“By their fruits ye shall know them…” Our Savior truly warned us. PRAY for Arizona!
I’m saying this respectfully. I think that Mark Driscoll’s children should be left out of any comments or criticism. They are children. They are innocent. Their parents are responsible for their actions (and SHOULD be held accountable). But the kids should be off limits. Just my humble opinion.