Two days ago, the Bayly Blog wrote a post in which they stated that Doug Wilson's Open Letter was "pastorally wise." The Baylys have been long time supporters of Doug Wilson. Today, in a stunning turnaround, they removed the initial post and and placed this statement in its place.
Two days ago, with my wife I posted a statement titled "Christ Church's open letter is pastorally wise…" in support of an open letter issued by the pastors and elders of Christ Church, Moscow, in connection with a member of their congregation named Steven Sitler. Since posting our statement, though, Mary Lee and I have learned more details which have led us to conclude our prior statement was precipitous and should not have been published. We apologize and have removed the statement from Baylyblog…
That said, we continue to have deep respect for Christ Church's pastors and elders Biblically, spiritually, and pastorally. Like many others around the country, we and our congregation have benefited greatly from their ministry and thank God for them and their work, as well as the congregation that loves and supports them. We do not want to cause them any pain, but in the particular instance of Steven Sitler, we are afraid our prior statement has rightly been interpreted as the endorsement of a particular approach in pastoral care of child sexual abusers that we do not, in fact, support. Thus this retraction and the posting (we anticipate in a little while) of another piece explaining some of the details of what we believe about the proper pastoral care of those who have given themselves to this terrible wickedness.
We will link to their new piece when it is posted. We will post a link to their new statement when it is posted.
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I do sincerely wonder what they originally thought the details were — was Sitler’s past such a well-hidden secret?
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Here’s the cached article: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3ArP04NKGOR_4J%3Abaylyblog.com%2Fblog%2F2015%2F09%2Fchrist-churchs-open-letter-pastorally-wise+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
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Hey, first, first, first. That’s a first for me. Woohoo!!!!
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Bronze…
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Geez a lou.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
LOL…sport’s fan are you?
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What has come out since they put up their Love Warmly to Doug Wilson post that was not known before? Is it the site that posted the actual court documents? How long before the other Wilson apologists walk back their support? I don’t expect any of them to actually own what they wrote because they never do.
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You know, the more I learn about these guys, the more I am just stunned.
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BTW, had a quick look at the Clan Bayly’s post. There’s a chappie in the comments who refers, generically, to “fire-breathing-dragons” who have “hurled ecstatic assaults* at Elders”.
Insofar as the commenter named no-one, you can’t yet claim this epithet personally (unless I’m missing an existing award by someone else). But it certainly looks like an ecstatic assault, doesn’t it?
I’m not sure what an ecstatic assault is, nor how you would hurl it. Moreover, there is no biblical basis for saying that dragons breathe fire. Biblically, the only things to emerge from a dragon’s mouth are rivers and frog-like spirits.
* Correct spelling added
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When all the vagueness is removed…all the sudden these glowing letters of support seem to vanish.
So much for accountability and due diligence with this crowd.
They can complain about the blogs all day long, but in the end, they exist because they do the hard work that others refuse to do.
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As an addendum to my 12:53 pm comment currently in Mod, there is one character in scribsher whose breath is destructive in battle. This from 2 Thessalonians:
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When you’re a Patriarch and Tim Bayly apologizes for backing you, I think you should take that as a sign of something.
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We’ve seen it before. Once-time supporters of Mark Driscoll began to distance themselves quickly from the man and his ministry when he got too far afield. When Driscoll finally fell, his friends dropped him like a hot potato. There is a certain point, that even other wackos declare this is too wacko.
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Corbin wrote:
Or, if you are a patriarch and Tim Bayly apologizes for backing you, you are going to have a bad day.
I hope DW is having a very bad day.
Not because I wish him ill.
I simply wish him change.
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Max wrote:
There are limits to any mutual admiration society, namely when the other guy’s stuff is starting to make you stink. Let’s not forget that Paul Tripp and Matt Chandler were defending Driscoll right up until the moment they were not defending Driscoll.
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If Doug could just say “I was wrong and I am sorry” and then ask Boz T to come into his church and teach them how to do it, this would go away. Can he do it?
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Gram3 wrote:
I was astonished at this development, actually, but from having met Tim Bayly a few times, I might have known better. He has, in the past, been able to admit he was wrong in something, and I admired him (and tended to trust his teaching, even after I’d begun to pull away from the likes of Doug Wilson) for it.
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Julie Anne wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSav51fVlKU
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Mara wrote:
I think the moon would sooner turn purple than Wilson change. The problem is that many look to him for wisdom and insight. He’s hurting people and it needs to be called out.
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dee wrote:
If he’s a true narcissist, the answer is no.
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Corbin wrote:
Breaking Up Is Hard To Do by Neil Sedaka
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQD3At3E7TA
“They say that breaking up is hard to do
Now I know, I know that it’s true
Don’t say that this is the end
Instead of breaking up I wish that we were making up
again”
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Max wrote:
Yes. I saw something similar, the weirdest news story this past week.
Westboro Church is against Kim Davis, the clerk. Westboro Church blames anti-homosexual marriage crusader Davis for homosexual marriage.
I had to read the headline of that article several times over before it soaked in and I understood what I was even seeing.
Sometimes these types will turn on their own kind for not having pure enough ideology.
Kind of like the Raptors in the original Jurassic Park movies who would turn on, and eat, fellow Raptors.
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I am hoping for the best from Bayly and Co. but this strikes me as a CYA move. It will be interesting to see this “other posting” when it comes out and what info it contains that was not available when he write his first post. And I fully expect the Bayly sycophants to do an about face with their leader just because he said so. Not because they actually did their own investigating and came to a different conclusion.
I might be feeling a little cynical today…. 🙂
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dee wrote:
I believe he can. And I believe a pig just flew past my window.
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I don’t frequent the Bayly blog, so I don’t get the dynamics of the site.
Why do you all think both the “Pastorally Wise” letter and this apology and retraction are co-authored by “Tim and Mary Lee Bayly”.? Or co-signed by them? Or is there a difference?
Where is David Bayly in all this?
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Do I remember this right: Did the media not report Sitler were to be in court this week (Yesterday at 10:00), something about deciding about him living with that baby boy? Did you hear anything of what the court said?
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@ Julie Anne:
Every time to time I’ll let you win Julie Anne Smith! 😉
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Retha wrote:
I’m not sure if this pertains to the hearing that you’re asking about, but it was posted yesterday.
http://moscowid.net/2015/09/08/hearing-update/
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Heather wrote:
Tim Bayly speaks highly of Mary Lee as his “help meet”.
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@ refugee:
OK, a little off-topic here, but I wish we could somehow expunge the nonsensical term “help meet” (or its variations, “help-meet” and “helpmeet”) from the language. The daft thing is that it was never a word, even in the long-defunct language of the KJV.
Slightly closer to topic, I like the idea of a husband/wife team blogging together. Lesley and I work together on all our most important stuff, and are much less effective when we operate separately.
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Hmmm… I thought I felt a cold draft coming up from under my feet….
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Early bird special: http://t4g.org
Can’t we just say “We Are Christians” and drop all this jargon?
(Bookstore opens early.)
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I don’t know if anyone has already posted DW’s latest blog post today, so here it is:
http://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/dont-think-so-scooter.html#disqus_thread
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Steve wrote:
Cj is back in the fold I see…
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Heather wrote:
I don’t frequent it either– it’s quite odd…
Also, in the retracted article he–er, uh- they describe the open letter as “the wisdom of the letter of Christ Church’s officers.”
They also refer to the letter as issued by Wilson and the Kirk session, Wilson and fellow Kirk officers, or Wilson and fellow Kirk elders and pastors. Whereas the letter is clearly authored by Wilson alone “on behalf of” Kirk elders. Somehow the Baylys (not including David) were stressing that Wilson’s not a Lone Ranger. And being “officers”, just like the KJV says, is really important. Don’t accuse officers of stuff or you’ll be in deep meadow muffins.
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Doug writes: ‘Would I do that wedding again? Yes, I would.’
We know, Doug. We know you would do it all again. We know narcissists don’t back down and never, ever admit they may have been wrong.
So please stop writing all these waffley blog posts defending yourself.
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I wonder if the Bayly blog retraction is making DW sweat a bit. Hence the frantic and increasingly hysterical blog posts asserting his victimhood and rightness?
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I know. That’s why I use it. Perverse of me. Sort of a private joke amongst former “help meets” at times. Pronounce the term with all the irony it deserves, as you remember solemn charges in sermons to husbands and wives, and how the bible requires this and that and the other thing, while remembering privately that “help meet” was never a word, and that Hebrew word for “help” is used oftener in the OT (to my understanding) to describe God than woman.
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May wrote:
Is he, really? I haven’t been back to his blog in a couple days, I think. It was too painful to read (not because of how right he is, but because of how wrong… not wronged… wrong). And the comments of his sycophants are painful, as well, in their blind faith in their Guru.
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dee wrote:
Wilson is a pragmatist, IMO, so maybe he might consider some form of non-apology apology, but that would be way out of character. If he “repented” of the Sitler case, he would need to explain why he made a decision which was so obviously wrong on so many levels. That would entail going places regarding ecclesiastical authority where he would not want to go. And purity culture. And patriarchy, and on and on. Based on my interaction with people in the Kirk Kult and affiliated groups, there is little chance of any of them actually re-thinking and doing the equivalent of a mortality and morbidity analysis. This belief system is who they have become, especially the leaders who profit from it.
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@ Gram3:
I just realized my previous comment will earn me the accusation of denying the power of the Gospel for Doug Wilson and his fellow travelers. I do not deny the power of the Gospel just as I do not deny the power of deception.
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Heather wrote:
Because, IMO, the doctrine of Patriarchy is being put under close examination, and there needs to be a Reliable Witness that Patriarchy is really not a bad thing at all. It cannot be bad or women like Mary Lee would not endorse it, right? It is akin, IMO, to Elliot Spitzer hauling his wife in front of the cameras or Hillary defending Bill. You must have a witness whose credentials cannot be questioned. I think the narrative will shift to “mistakes were made” mode pretty soon. It is never the ideology but only the implementation. The ideology may not be questioned.
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Andrew wrote:
Guess the Gospel Glitterati are doubling down. It brings me such joy to think about young pastors being taught to bring great joy to their churches by emulating the way Mahaney brought such joy to his churches and SGM. Joy to the world, C.J. has come. I wish they would just give him a cut of the gross and keep him off the stage.
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Victorious wrote:
Read it. Made me shudder (but not from the fear of God, rather, another cause).
I could pick it apart, but I don’t want to waste any more time on the man. (Love Ellie’s translations, though. She’s way ahead of me; yet even I can begin to pick apart the fallacies and other verbal dodging he engaged in. Maybe she’ll tackle this one as well, as it is ripe. In more ways than one.)
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@ refugee:
You can pack a lot more hidden meaning into a term that is not well-understood. If they used a term like “suitable counterpart” it would be much more difficult to cram hierarchy into it because it just doesn’t evoke gopher/assistant.
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Gram3 wrote:
He often refers to Mary Lee in his talks. She is something of a “second opinion” for him, a reality check perhaps, definitely not afraid to offer her opinion, and he appears to value her input.
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Gram3 wrote:
Too true! And “Created to be his gopher/assistant” just doesn’t have the same panache as a book title.
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Gram3 wrote:
Oh, yes, and when they *really* get backed into a corner, they can always play the “God allowed this to happen; it was for His glory” card. As in, Wilson didn’t ever put a foot wrong, or if he did, it was because God was guiding his steps as part of a Greater Plan.
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refugee wrote:
And p.s. I haven’t heard yet that the author of “Created to be his Help Meet” has repudiated the term. I have seen that the book is still for sale under the original title. You can even trade yours in to Amazon for a gift card worth $6.09 so some other poor schmuck will be able to purchase it at a used discount and benefit from the wisdom contained therein.
Sorry to be so savage today. Am cutting down on caffeine and that makes me grumpy.
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Well, does it look like the Bayly Boyz have some sense after all?
Or was the uproar just getting too hot for them?
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refugee wrote:
“IN’SHAL’LAH…”
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Gram3 wrote:
Purity of Ideology, Comrade.
Purity of Ideology.
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Gram3 wrote:
Like “The Tragedian” in The Great Divorce?
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refugee wrote:
p.s. The Baylys really have come down hard on sexual abuse and molestation in the church. We have heard them speak on it. They’ve had hard words to say, with both of them speaking on the topic, and stern warnings. They take this stuff much more seriously, it appears, than a lot of others in leadership in patriarchal circles.
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Gram3 wrote:
Or a term like, God Forbid, “partner”
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Daisy wrote:
When there are no more Infidels, start on the Heretics.
When there are no more Heretics, start on the Apostates.
What do predators eat after they’ve killed off all the prey?
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This has already been mentioned, but here is the full paragraph. From Wilson’s post today:
“Now when a couple “with challenges” come together in marriage, they need the blessing of the church all the more. They need additional support, guidance and so on. That is something I gave to them, and would be happy to give to them again. Would I do that wedding again? Yes, I would. Would I bless them again? Yes, I would — and had I known how vile people were going to be to them, I would have given them an extra blessing. There are a lot of people out there who don’t care how many people they have to injure or trample if only it gives them a chance to score points on me.”
Often wrong, but never in doubt. And always play the victim.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I don’t know about Tim Bayly’s brother, but I have heard him and his wife, Mary Lee, talk about this kind of stuff in churches. They are very serious about taking it seriously. They’re big into prevention, and into dealing with it appropriately (like turning abusers in to the law and letting the legal system deal with them). They (in my experience) have not been into protecting abusers just because of “repentance” but acknowledging that actions have consequences. A murderer who repents while in prison might still pay for his crime with the death penalty — repentance does not change consequences.
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@ refugee:
p.s. I am no fan of Tim Bayly but feel I have to give credit where it is due.
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Victorious wrote:
Good God! Half the words in that thing are the word “I”. Narcissism in the extreme.
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refugee wrote:
And Bill talks about Hillary. I would not necessarily conclude that there is any particular close and trusted relationship based on that. I would not necessarily conclude that there is *not* a close relationship. I would conclude that it is irrelevant and that the best inference *in this particular instance* is that he needs Mary Lee to bolster his case. Of course, it may also be true that he values her input *and* that he needs her to bolster his case with a Female Witness!
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I vote for hot uproar from the mobs of Jezebels.
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Heather wrote:
I’m quite sure it was “co-signed,” not “co-authored.”
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JeffT wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnQYtbbsJzM
Be Seeing You!
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Just for my clarification…
This perhaps has been discussed and I have missed it…but I am not clear….Did Stitler do SOMETHING to the infant, or, was “normal” contact with the infant “arousing” for Stitler, which would neccessitate strciter safe guards.
I know it is splitting hairs, but it really is a significantly different issue. Either one means he shouldn’t be around ANY children. But, there is an important distinction between actively molesting someone and having no control over your “internal” though processes concerning someone. And, if it is the latter, thank goodness it was found out before those “private” thoughts escalated(as I am sure they would eventually with the nature of his problems).
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refugee wrote:
Good, absolutely right. Anyone that expresses sense on this anywhere must be complimented on it.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
Victorious wrote:
“Let me be Nebuchadnezzar…..” ?????
Dan. 4:33 “And the same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar; and he was driven from the men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles’ feathers, and his nails like birds’ claws.”
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Adam it is not clear from the documents just which one it was. But there is a reference to ‘incidents’ which his wife was obligated to report and did not. Also, despite the fact that he confessed to the arousal, he still could not pass two lie detector tests to say that nothing else happened. So his probation officer is very worried. New offenses, if they occurred should certainly result in a new prosecution. However, I think the odds are pretty good that he did something that violates the terms of his probation even if he didn’t commit a new offense.
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Tim Bayly has posted a new article now.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
Help meet – I don’t think so. I am my husband’s wife, his spouse and definitely not the little woman. We have been married for just over 30 years now and my husband would never use the term “Help meet”. To me it is just a very bad term.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I have been to Christian discernment sites before, say owned by guys named Bob and Frank, and they maintain lists of heretics and false teachers in Christianity.
Darn if everyone’s name in Christianity is not on that list except for Bob and Frank.
They might even have Frank’s grandma on their list o’ heretics because granny doesn’t agree with Frank and Bob on eschatology or some other topic most people would agree is a non-essential of the faith.
So, then I’d visit a similar site by Joe and Walter, rinse and repeat. Everyone is on their site’s list for being wolves except for Joe and Walter. It’s amazing how that works. They are in a church of two.
What’s even more amusing is if site 1 gets wind of site 2, then you will see site 1 (Bob and Frank) put site 2 guys (Joe and Walter) on their list.
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Dave A A wrote:
Most of you don’t need to read most of it– it’s addressed to church officers and Titus 2 women. Except for, “For this reason, Christians not called to be church officers or TItus 2 women should watch themsleves lest they become discouragers of their leaders through their rebellion, bitterness, gossip, petty criticism, or slander.”
Heb 13:17! Heb13:17!!
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I’ve followed all the links and am so disturbed by all of this. It needs to be dragged into the light. A serial sexual predator has found his perfect home. Under the wing of a narcissistic quasi cult leader. In a community that will only reluctantly cooperate with law enforcement. And other “Christian Leaders” fall over themselves to defend it. This is beyond pathological patriarchy, this is psychotic patriarchy.
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@ Dave A A:
Well, that was a mixed bag. His refusal to allow a pedophile to marry is good. His looking forward to meeting Jeffrey Dahmer is weird. His calling out people who are discussing Wilson as engaging in “rebellion, bitterness, gossip, petty criticism, or slander” is standard BaylyBlog. (Never, ever, ever criticize the leaders.)
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Steve wrote:
Wow, what a collection of scurrilous types!
C.J. Mahaney, still silent after all these years about child abuse!
Southern Baptists will take note of the presence of David Platt, of the IMB, which overspent its budget by millions.
I see a couple of black guys to give it an interracial flair (otherwise it’s overwhelmingly white). Oh, and don’t look for women; the sin of Eve still hasn’t been forgiven so we can’t possibly talk to the XY chromosomes out there.
And of course, no Louisville shindig would be complete without the pompous musings of King Albert Mohler.
Now here’s an idea…if we got Doug Wilson and Al Mohler in the same room together, would the universe explode from the matter and antimatter being in nearly the same space?
The tl;dr is “What a waste of time, money and space. These guys would do better to go build houses with Habitat for Humanity for those three days.”
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In reading thru Wilson’s latest post, I particularly noticed 2 intriguing references that have not been addressed by any one else. In the section headed PASTORAL CONFIDENTIALITY, Wilson talks about the discretion he believes is appropriate. One sentence about disclosing information from his counseling session states “A need-to-know basis would be defined by things like the righteous requirements of criminal law, or the necessity of protecting another victim from a gross injustice.” I thought “righteous” was an interesting and unnecessary addition that sounded like one of his wiggle words and possibly meant that HE would be the determiner of how “righteous” the criminal law is and whether he actually had to disclose or not. In the second paragraph he says “relationship meltdowns can be very messy, and sin can leave a big smoking crater, and the same thing is true when a family blows apart. If I were in the middle of one such situation, and one participant in it comes out years later to “tell the story,” I am not in a position to set the record straight if the cost of defending myself is to volunteer information on other people involved in the meltdown.” It seems to me, that this is a not very thinly disguised reference to Natalie’s molestation by Jamin Winger which Wilson seems to have judged to be a consensual relationship since he expected her to repent of. So he is not backing down on his handling of that fiasco in which he basically “high-fived” the defendant. So much to repent of for Wilson and so little time,given the scope of his errors(sins?) in teaching and counsel!
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What do you know? Joe Carter, Director of Communications for the Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, is speaking at a Christ Church conference.
http://christchurchlakeland.com/witnessconference/#tab-1-1-joe-carter
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BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
I agree (in most cases) with not criticizing the leaders of a local church in a public forum such as blogs. However, once you open yourself up to blogging, constant tweeting, book writing, conference speaking, etc. (basically spreading your theology and musings), you’re fair game. CJ, Doug and the like have been busy telling the world how to do church the right way, so when they screw up, they should be criticized. You can’t use the public forum to promote yourself then hide behind local church polity when there is pushback. Would we even be having this conversation if doug was a relative unknown?
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@ Dave A A:
Never a word about “officers of the church” who discourage those who have followed them or the shepherds who beat the sheep rather than leading in righteousness. It is interesting that he says that *both* men and women should point out failures in leadership. Then why did he roast Valerie Hobbs and Rachel Miller for pointing out what Wilson really teaches about marriage and gender? Which is it I wonder.
I’m thrilled that Bayly *now* says that elders should not marry a pedophile to a young woman who is acting foolishly along with her parents. That is evident on its face. So why all the defense of Wilson? Why not just say plainly that he should have refused to marry them?
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Dave A A wrote:
I read the latest from Bayly but I’m missing the narrative how he got from point “A” several days ago to point “B” today. What caused the shift? How could he be so wrong yesterday that I should give any trust in what he says today. He provides no humility in recognizing his earlier error let alone analyzing why he made it.
This may sit well with his admirers, and changing his proclamations is marginally helpful, but Bayly is not covering himself with glory on this.
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Steve wrote:
Notable breakout sessions on tap:
“Sovereign Grace Churches” (And how is this worthwhile??)
“Don’t be a 9Marxist!” (Featuring Jonathan Leeman – someone has been reading the blogs)
“…Are Some Doctrines More Fundamental than Others?” (aka Why only Complementarian Churches are Real Churches)
-Sovereign
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BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
One of these things should not be like the others.
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My goodness! Has someone asked Douglas Wilson to divulge what has gone on in counseling sessions? I don’t recall anyone doing that – so what is he blathering on about in his article? Maybe someone can explain this.
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Actually I thought Bayly’s letter was pretty darn good!! So what if he didn’t praise the ruckus rowsers of the internet!! WE know that if there hadn’t been such an bunch of hollerin’ he may well not have further investigated the situation. I thought he said some incredibly STRONG things that needed to be said. Okay, so he hasn’t repented of patriarchy and his disdain of uppity women–YET!! But give the guy (and his wife) some credit instead of just sniffing resentfully. The important thing is that he has taken a very strong stand about the treatment of pedophiles. So we screamers do the necessary but dirty janitorial work around here–somebody has to do it and the Lord knows where our hearts are!
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Bridget wrote:
I haven’t read any requests for that, though I don’t read all the twitter exchanges. However, I just saw this post on CREC Memes that suggests Wilson may be selective in what confidential information he decides to disclose.
https://crecmemes.wordpress.com/2015/09/09/confidentiality/
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__
“Divergence?”
hmmm…
“Or, if you are a patriarch and Tim Bayly apologizes for backing you, you are going to have a bad day” ?
huh?
Tim Bayly wants to make a phone call?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9l_U2xXb9VI
🙂
—
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Andrew wrote:
I think we all expected that to happen eventually – with all of his big-name enablers he always comes back just like Freddie Krueger. I see that CBMW has their piggyback pre-conference again, this time on “The Beauty of Complementarity”. The whitewash oughta be thrown around by the bucket full at that one.
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Dearest Doug,
Thank you for taking the heat off of me for a season or two!
Love your Brah in Christ,
Matt Chandler
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Corbin wrote:
I agree completely. I hate seeing bad things happen to anybody. However, what Doug Wilson does is having influence far afield and it hurts people. I hope that some of these revelations may decrease his influence. Having lived a little while, I have my doubts. Especially since his little booklet on slavery in the South did not make him a pariah.
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Gram3 wrote:
I think you are right. The whole patriarchy culture is also a hierarchy culture. If you admit that it can go so far astray, you might get people thinking on their own, and we cannot have that!
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dee wrote:
Well that explains the curious remark that Doug Wilson wrote yesterday about Boz’s grandfather, the Rev. Billy Graham: “We are not really upset when the tabloids claim that Billy Graham was found in a love nest with Hitler’s granddaughter, and we do not lose sleep over the troubling erosion of ‘journalistic standards’.”
https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/clean-rain.html
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dee wrote:
No.
The Lead Pastor of the One True Kirk(TM) Can Do No Wrong.
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Daisy wrote:
“Understand one thing; these guys do NOT hang out together. The Universe cannot have two Centers.”
— Kooks Magazine regarding Conspiracy Cranks
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Nancy2 wrote:
Just like Baba Saddam styled himself “The Second Nebuchadnezzar”.
Even having some of Babylon’s walls restored with each and every new brick stamped with “Rebuilt in the Age of Saddam”.
But none of them ever seemed to notice the lesson the Jews wrote about Nebuchadnezzar:
How his own Ego drove him insane.
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@ Joe:
Co-signed, Mark Driscoll.
Hehe.
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Bill M wrote:
Keep in mind that the retracted post was co-authored or signed off on by his wife– today’s was by Tim alone. “The woman Thou gavest me…”
Seriously, I think he read Doug’s letter more carefully, and realized that he would not have supported the marriage as Doug does.
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Bridget wrote:
I think he is planting the thought that he did or said something in those counseling sessions that would make a difference *if only we knew* but he cannot say what that was because confidentiality. It appears to be an oblique defense and appeal to what we don’t know. Lacking full knowledge of what was said/done during counseling makes us ineligible to comment on what he did, namely marry a pedophile.
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Dave A A wrote:
That or perhaps he or Mary Lee heard from some people in his church or other affiliated churches who were mortified at their pastor defending what is clearly indefensible. I think that is what happened with Chandler and The Village ELDERS.
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nancyjane wrote:
I thought PARTS of the letter were good, which is a good thing.
But notice how differently he addresses Katy’s father and Doug….
Katy’s Dad must have been off his rocker to approve her marrying a pedophile.
Doug must have been (all sorts of hemming and hawing–tough to be an officer–nobody perfect) to approve her marrying a pedophile.
Then there’s the truly bizarre qualification that victims of his imaginary pedophile be “unrelated to him by blood or marriage”.
Then there’s a pot-shot at, I presume, Brent Detwiler for dissing his former boss. The Ceej…
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@ Gram3:
Maybe some pew-potatoes threatened to cease being giving-units. 🙂
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An interesting development. I wonder if, feeling the heat, DW is going to start adding more strange insults that make no sense and sound infantile. It is funny to see a wordsmith like him not be able to craft a put-down. What might it be next? Poopy Head comes to mind but I would hope he knows that is over used quite a bit in the 5 and under crowd.
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Velour wrote:
What does Billy Graham have to do with any of this? Can Doug Wilson stop going off the rail? Just curious.
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Dave A A wrote:
No, that cannot be it. He is an Officer of Christ’s Church, not to be confused with the Officers of Christ Church.
Regarding this dispute over pewpeons and pewpotatoes, I think we are confusing our sets. In authoritarian churches, all non-Officers in Christ’s Church are pewpeons because they are not high and lifted up Officers in Christ’s Church. OTOH, not all pewpeons are necessarily pewpotatoes, since a few of us were/are unwilling to sit there and just be passive recipients of the favors dispensed by the Officers in Christ’s Church. A few pewpeons are willing to make our voices heard and are not willing to just swallow every Big Idea the Officers in Christ’s Church put out there.
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Gram3 wrote:
They’re not Titus 2 women, (which apparently means wives or maybe daughters of church officers) in his opinion.
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Bridget wrote:
Rail? That’s what he does, not what he stays on.
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@ Bridget:
It seems he enjoys throwing out these asides to his adoring fans.
He lives for this stuff. All this just reinforces his martyrdom.
NPD.
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Dang I love this place.
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@ Gram3:
Thanks for clarifying that. I was starting to wonder if true pew-potatoes can only be in Idaho. So while he might be said to roast Hobbs and Miller, he might more precisely be said to bake me.
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@ GovPappy:
@ Gram3:
He comes across as someone who considers this all a big game. Based on his writing, I would never trust this man. I don’t need to meet him and/or know him to evaluate him.
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CPS will investigate the Sitler family.
http://sitler.moscowid.net/2015/09/09/moscow-pullman-daily-news-cps-opening-investigation-into-sitler-family/
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It seems that we have been lied to–our fathers and husbands are far from invincible, not always godly, and may not even have our best interests at heart. And obeying them unquestionably does not always bring blessings. I am not the only one to discover this the hard way–just ask Katie or Anna Duggar. I can’t find Bill Gothard’s “covering” in the Bible.
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@ Bunsen Honeydew:
He needs this shirt. 🙂
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@ Bunsen Honeydew:
Link didn’t come through.
http://www.zazzle.com/im_not_childish_youre_just_a_big_doody_head_tshirt-235579011930456318
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@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Good. I wonder if DW will be pitching a holy fit shortly, now that EVIL FASCIST FEMINAZI SOCIAL WORKERS will be around Kirk children.
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Irene wrote:
Some of us have been trying to keep a list of good books and articles refuting the comp/patriarchy doctrine. If you go to the top of the page here at The Wartburg Watch, go to the Interesting tab, then Books, etc. — you’ll find some resources there.
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I’m glad to hear CPS is getting involved. A “line of sight” chaperone can’t protect this child a night. All it takes is for Katie to go to sleep, Sitler to pretend to go to sleep, and then he has full unchaperoned access.
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BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
YES! YES! YES!
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Gram3 wrote:
It seems obvious to me. They are not Titus 2 women, acting through their church officer husband intermediaries.
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Bill M wrote:
Too true. I was looking for him to provide a little background for how he got from point A to point B, if only for his readers’ edification. It would have been a lovely lesson in humility, and how to admit when you’ve acted in haste (is there a bible verse about speaking or acting in haste?), and how honesty may be difficult, but it is the best course to choose to do the right thing, and to surrender pride lest it lead to a fall.
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Bridget wrote:
Maybe he’s anticipating a subpoena? Is clergy confidentiality the same as the seal of the confessional? (The latter which I know nothing of, except what I’ve seen in “Father Brown” episodes.)
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nancyjane wrote:
My note just now wasn’t critical, but more wistful. I really would like to know what made him change his mind, even as I respect him for being able to do it.
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BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
This rings a bell. I recently read a Wilson hit-site (insider account?) where they said that Wilson began preaching in “parables” that were actually thinly disguised anecdotes about real people in the congregation, pointed enough to make the target(s) squirm.
http://dougsplotch.net/aftermath.htm
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Bridget wrote:
Boz Tchvidjian, who took Wilson to the woodshed on Monday, is the grandson of Billy Graham. He also runs GRACE, a ministry which works on child abuse situations in churches. Wilson's shots have been poor in rhetoric, and poorer in class.
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Gram3 wrote:
That makes sense.
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Gram3 wrote:
This sounds like Ross Perot in 1992 whenever anybody tried to pin him down on what he would do as President.
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refugee wrote:
Lots of things are possible to explain the switch. One possibility is that Wilson needs a way to save face and show that he is not unaccountable. So, he can say that he has humbly listened to his fellow pastors and elders and sees that in his zealous desire to serve two young people and demonstrate the love and forgiveness of Christ toward repentant sinners mistakes were made. Or something like that. So he needed someone outside of the immediate Kirk Kult to say something like what the Baylys did. IOW, people make mistakes out of the best of intentions, etc…
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Daisy wrote:
Good Lord! I was hoping Westboro Baptist Church would fade into the sunset after its leader Fred Phelps died. But I guess he left behind enough haters-of-everything members to still stir up trouble. Westboro is neither “Baptist” or “Church”, as evidenced by their antics. Another fringe Calvinist group that is just plain peculiar. They believe POTUS-Obama is the Antichrist … hmmmm.
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More on Bayly’s retraction, he ends it with admonishing his critics.
“For this reason, Christians not called to be church officers or TItus 2 women should watch themsleves lest they become discouragers of their leaders through their rebellion, bitterness, gossip, petty criticism, or slander. ”
His final admonishment:
“Those not in authority within the church should never stop trembling at this warning from God:”
and then quotes … surprise! Hebrews 13:17, and misapplying it
This was a cliche response from an authoritarian. No humility in error, no “I made a big mistake”, only proclaiming a new position without referencing his prior error. And then ends it with intimidation for those critical of Wilson and of his own imprudence. To borrow a quote, “Good night”, I’m done reading anything of Bayly.
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refugee wrote:
It would be nice to hear that other pastor Jared Moore do the right thing too after his odd tweets in support of marrying a pedophile to Katie.
Here’s a link to a story of a pastor who *got it right* and turned in his own father (also a pastor) for sexually abusing children at church. Father is now serving a long prison sentence.
http://www.post-gazette.com/local/east/2015/03/22/Christian-minister-Jimmy-Hinton-teaches-churches-to-guard-against-pedophiles-like-his-father-John-Wayne-Hinton/stories/201503220056
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@ Bill M:
Did you see in the comments– a couple had good questions, and suddenly he’s too busy to give them proper attention! No answers for you guys now! Please attend my conference in February about sexual abuse in the church! Unless you’re a pew-peon, that is– the conference is for officers, Titus2ers, and aspiring officers only.
Good night!
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refugee wrote:
I have no particular opinion on Mr Bayly as I don’t know enough about him. But I couldn’t agree more on the “credit where it’s due” Thing.
Regulars at TWW will know very well that I personally am divisive, pitifully ignorant of even the most basic aspects of the Christian life, selfish and totally lacking in love. At least, that’s what a cell group leader in one christian organisation in Glasgow thought. It rapidly reached a point where he was so convinced of those things that he chose to interpret everything I did or said through that lens. Nick just said X. What’s the most stupid, ungodly, infantile thing he could possibly have meant by that? Hmm… that would be Y. In that case, Nick just said Y. He’s really stupid, ungodly and infantile just like I thought. There was no way to progress that kind of relationship.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Leviathan is totally a dragon.
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dee wrote:
From Douglas Wilson’s blog yesterday:
Having done so, they then linked their names up with outrageous accusations, which they really ought not to have done. I am thinking here of Anthony Bradley, Ryan Sather, and Boz Tchividjian. The only thing I will do here is issue a public invitation to talk offline, or in person. I would be happy to do it.
Perhaps Boz should be encouraged to take up the offer. The ‘biting and devouring’ Wilson complains about is actually a distraction from the real issue. One to one conversation has got to be better than ‘trial by internet’, and maybe needed change might come as a result of it.
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Dave A A wrote:
I was troubled by that tone toward Katie's dad and calling him foolish, according to Tim Bayly. Katie was introduced to the pedophile by a church elder in Moscow, Idaho.. Katie's dad was in Nevada. The elders and Wilson knew about Sitler's abuse of other children. I doubt Katie's dad knew that.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Nick,
Between your sports updates and giving us God’s Yorkshire Pudding recipe (enshrined at the top of the page here under Interesting tab and Cooking) we have no clue why the Glasgow chap doesn’t hold you in the high regard that we do!
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
And there was me thinking you seemed a decent sort of bloke, not lacking in a sense of humour (as is the habit of some), often making interesting and thoughtful posts on sundry topics, and someone whose path to date overlaps with mine in some ‘apostolic’ ways. Got a fair amount in commmon.
Just goes to show what a poor judge of character I must be … 🙂
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
What he said about protecting kids is great. The rest is standard Bayly protecting the bad actors if they are Officers in Christ’s Church. It’s an old drill for many of us as we have watched his trajectory. Our trust has been broken, and that’s the lens. I wish he had led with protecting the kids and not with protecting his buddy.
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Ken wrote:
In all honesty, Boz’ time would be better spent talking to people who want to know how to protect kids. Doug Wilson is a perpetual victim of the people who are out to destroy him and his “ministry.” I’ve tried talking to people in this movement and got absolutely nowhere. They see it as being serious in much the same way that the YRR see themselves as being the ones serious about the Christian faith. Wilson is accountable to no one, so why would he start listening now? Think Driscoll.
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David Bayly has posted an article on the topic, as well. IMO, it’s better written and he stays more on topic, but he assumes things about the victims and Wilson’s critics which are untrue.
For example:
“Third, striking by its absence in the current hullabaloo is the voice of any victim. We can’t assume happiness from silence. But neither can we assume unhappiness. The lack of victims’ voices in the current debate makes the accusations of Pastor Wilson’s critics seem disingenuous–less concerned with this case than with other defects they perceive in Pastor Wilson and Christ Church.”
We can’t assume unhappiness? Because Sitler’s victims (most of whom must still be minor children today) haven’t commented on blogs? But his brother doesn’t believe all the SGM victims who came forward as adults. Has he heard the voice of Natalie Rose? Does she sound happy with how the Kirk treated her?
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Ken wrote:
I suppose humor is in the eye of the beholder, much like beauty. It doesn’t mean one lacks a sense of it 😉
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@ Dave A A:
I retract that “better written and more on topic line”. He doesn’t do all the officer/schmofficer stuff and go off on a Detwiler (who’s not criticized Wilson) tangent. But his arguments don’t hold logical water–including an abortion tangent.
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Bridget wrote:
True. My observation is that humor and/or sarcasm is often used as a highly effective deflection or diversion.
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Dave A A wrote:
What I think what he misses is that a woman who has had an abortion is not likely to go around aborting other women’s babies, even *if* we grant his notion that a repentant mother might abort future children. AFAIK, no one has said that Sitler cannot come to church. What I’ve heard is that he should have a chaperon whose primary focus is protecting the children. I’ve heard that the congregation should be notified promptly. I’ve heard that Wilson should not have arranged the marriage of a serial pedophile and then officiated at it. I’ve heard that Wilson should have kept his nose out of the judicial process. So, there are lots of straw men being sacrificed, and none of these objections rise to the level of fire-breathing. Is that the latest meme going around in pastor circles about women who speak up?
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Dave A A wrote:
He doesn’t understand what it actually means to be a victim.
One of the first things taken in the making of victims is their voice.
That is why others have to speak for them. Or at the very least ask about them since the perpetrators (DW, Sitler, etc) are working feverishly to sweep them, their voices, their needs, and their very souls under the rug in order to cover their own sins.
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Corbin wrote:
Bingo.
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harley wrote:
My grandmother invariably used the word “companion”. I suggest it to others.
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Jack wrote:
Indeed.
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Gram3 wrote:
I see this from the Baly brothers and Wilson. It such a sad way to communicate.
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Mara wrote:
Thank goodness. Its about time for them to step up to the plate.
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Dave A A wrote:
Plus, I’m wondering how much an infant can say for himself.
Bad form, Mr. Bayly.
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As far as Boz T having a conversation with Wilson, I don’t see that happening. In his latest post, DW makes more than one snarky remark about Boz being clairvoyant, as well as using this brouhaha to gin up support for G.R.A.C.E.
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dee wrote:
Unfortunately I think it would take a coup to see any change or admittance of wrong from Doug Wilson.
And, I’m glad to see that CPS is finally involved. Why they were not involved from the beginning once this child was born is beyond my comprehension. I don’t know much about the p.o. system, but I would have thought that once the p.o. knew that Sitler had a child that the family would have been reported for monitoring.
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Irene wrote:
Oh, Irene! Yes – it is a lie.
Jesus himself said:
Calling God the Father is subversive, like calling God the King in the OT. It means no kings or fathers on earth are really over us. God said that in His kingdom, all submit to one another and none should lord it over another. The first shall be last and the last first.
If you grew up as a daughter in that culture, I recommend the site “Quivering daughters”. http://www.quiveringdaughters.com/ If you want something on where Gothard goes wrong, see the “Recovering Grace” site.
If you want a general explanation of how people read the Bible in a way that give women their full, rightful place as co-equals with men, who were also given the task to rule the earth, could I suggest God’s Word for women: http://www.godswordtowomen.org/articles_by_topic.htm (My blog – accessible from linking on my name – also covers mostly the truth about women’s role in the Kingdom and their place before God.)
Of course, if you do not want to read, that is also fine.
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Has Bayly apologized to Rachel Miller and Valerie Hobbs for the insulting post about how women should not be holding men accountable?
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This may be slightly off topic, but I noticed something in Tim Bayly’s most recent post that struck me as interesting. After his outstanding paragraph detailing why no pedophile should ever be allowed around children ever again (including biological ones), regarding the marriage of such a one, he said this:
“How on earth can anyone in their right mind ever again grant him access to little ones, and what is the giving of a daughter’s hand in marriage but the commendation of her to the man to join him in fruitful love and propagate a godly seed.”
And there was this:
“They should have told this man whom the state refused to execute or imprison that he must never have children, and thus must never marry. He must make himself a eunuch for the sake of the Kingdom of God.”
More than a few times, Tim Bayly has seemed to flirt with Roman Catholic theology in certain areas. It would seem that he sees no biblical warrant for a Christian couple to ever decide to marry without having children. Because I am not against birth control including sterilization, I can see such a marriage potentially working in the event of the voluntary forgoing of parenthood as one of the restrictions on their life together. I still think the prospective bride would be taking on a significant amount of risk, but I’d be more likely to take his repentance seriously.
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Kathi wrote:
GAWD’s Anointed Can Do No Wrong.
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Kathi wrote:
Influence from the Kirk(TM)?
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Kathi wrote:
I don’t think that leopard has changed its spots. Not sure it can.
However, our eyes were opened, and we left that sphere, so I guess it could happen even to a Bayly, however unlikely. (Just like the idea that God miraculously cured Mr. Sitler as soon as he announced that he’d repented.)
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Velour wrote:
Did any tabloid ever claim such a thing, I wonder? I’m not curious enough to research that, actually.
I thought, perhaps, this might be a continuation of his snarking on Boz’ expressing his opinion. He was very ad hominem in one post I forced myself to read all the way through, saying that Boz weighed in, in order to stir up some business and $$$ for himself.
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@ refugee:
(and if there never was any such tabloid story, I’d *love* to see someone connected to the Graham family/ministry sue the pants off Wilson for defamation, though, considering the scriptures against lawsuits between “believers” is highly unlikely. Well, maybe if they rationalized that Wilson really isn’t a believer…)
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Gram3 wrote:
Actually, I’m sure there are people in Moscow who’d like to ride him out of town on a rail. Perhaps creatively employ some tar and feathers, as well.
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Ken wrote:
See, I’ve been in this situation, where I was offered “one to one conversation” and turned it down, because of what knowledge I had of the person who was offering a supposed olive branch. (It was actually more like a rattlesnake in olive branch guise, I have no doubt.)
If Boz were to take up this invitation, he should not only bring a witness or two of his own, but record the meeting.
Seriously.
I have no doubt he’d be intelligent, wise, and hopefully cunning enough to hold his own in such a meeting, and be able to resist Wilson’s personal charm and manipulation. Well, maybe I have a small doubt. These people, Ken, are much more dangerous than you give them credit for. I know, from bitter, personal experience.
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Ken wrote:
Sheep in wolf’s clothing, perhaps.
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About Wilson notifying authorities of Sitler, I find this:
“On March 11, 2005, Wilson advised the victim’s family to retain longtime Christ Church attorney, Gregory Dickison, who was a member of Christ Church … to accompany them to report the crime to the authorities. (For the record, Gregory Dickison is an utterly incompetent and unethical attorney; in fact, he recently terminated his law practice to begin a career selling real estate.) Unbelievably, while the victims notified the authorities, Steven Sitler whisked his way back to Colville, WA, where his family retained NSA’s attorney, Dean Wullenwaber, who was also a member of Christ Church. (For the record, Dean Wullenwaber is one of the finest attorneys on the Palouse and certainly one of the most powerful; please see the photograph of him posing with President George Bush.) ” – http://federal-vision.blogspot.co.za/2008/03/serial-pdophile.html
Was this notifying the authorities a CYA move while Doug actually got them someone incompetent and unethical to spin the story in a way that works for DW’s agenda?
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@ NJ:
I honestly think if a pedophile is really repentant and becomes a Christian. He should not marry, and like you said become a Eunuch. The pedophile should totally stay away from all places where children are. Get a job that doesn’t involve meeting with the public.
A few years ago I was watching a Christian talk show and this Catholic Priest said he prayed and prayed that God would deliver him from his homosexuality. But he didn’t. He was wrong, he had to make the change inside him first, then stay away from places where gay men meet. Actively pursue women in friendship. Repentance is great, but you have to turn away from the behavior that is wrong. Take yourself out of the situations where you are tempted. Repentance is not just praying, it’s action and action and action and prayer to the nth degree.
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Dave A A wrote:
Because if they are related, that means he is Paterfamilias and they are part of his Household. And in Pre-Christian Roman Law, Paterfamilias had unlimited absolute POWER (including unlimited Sexual Rights) over any and all of his Gens/Household.
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Gram3 wrote:
More like “One Hand Washes the Other”…
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Daisy wrote:
Westboro Church is against everyone except Westboro Church.
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doubtful wrote:
I, too, was wondering if the only reason the Bayly Blog retracted their support of Wilson and the Kirk’s handling of the Sitler case is due to all the publicity the case is getting on blogs. Thanks for your hard work, Dee, Deb, Julie Anne, Eagle, and anyone else covering this issue. Right now I’m thinking: You can run, Doug Wilson, but you can’t hide. It’s time to fess up to your complicity in this mess. Lots of folks are watching. What are you going to do?
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Harley, I agree with you on the repentance thing. And actually, it was Tim Bayly who said guys like Sitler should never marry. My thinking was that in the case of a pedophile who comes to faith in Christ, genuinely repents, hates his past sin and is trying to live accordingly, if such a one is capable of a normal marital relationship with an adult with the opposite sex, I see no grounds for nixing it. Provided the offender is committed to never having children. One thing the Baylys seem to have in common with Wilson is a belief that there can be no true Christian marriage without unconditional openness to procreation, which I disagree with.
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Dee, Doug has been peculiarly silent today. Do you suppose he’s getting counsel or pondering our offer to meet with him?
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Julie Anne wrote:
He’s stunned by our insights ….totally speechless. Perhaps he is preparing thee guest house?
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@ NJ:
The only thing that causes me pause is this. How do you know that said pedophile is serious? Most of them have asexual orientation that means they prefer children. This may be a preference that will last until the end of their lives. I believe that it is rare that a pedophile no longer struggles with this orientation.
I am inclined to consider celibacy unless the pedophile undergoes chemical castration.
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@ refugee:
My gosh.
My first pastor would do that regularly, except there was like 30 people in the church and everyone knew exactly who he was talking about.
And watchbloggers are the vile ones. Mmhmm.
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refugee wrote:
I know what you mean, Refugee. I’ve been commenting over there. It’s sad to see the ecstatic support of DW while ignoring the victim. I’ve been reminding them of the victim, but the DW supporters don’t want to be concerned with that. It’s all about defending DW because he is being persecuted.
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Apologies for not yet responding to y’all’s comments first, but on the D Bayly post there’s a recent comment from someone claiming to be an officer of the Kirk. It may be a Poe, so I won’t name him, but here’s one line: “My advice to you and to your readers is to read Pastor Wilson’s blog posts, stop assuming that he is lying, and don’t do any more thinking or writing on the subject.”
Well— that settles it for me! No more thinking!
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GovPappy wrote:
My former cult did the same. I remember one Sunday meeting in particular where the founding elder rebuked a woman from the pulpit. He never mentioned her name. Apparently she was too busy serving in various church functions to keep her house clean. She was rebuked for not serving her husband and family by cleaning her house. He went on for a good 20-30 minutes, which is the length of an SBC sermon. (Our Sunday meetings lasted 3 to 4 hours on average. Sometimes longer.)
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Dave A A wrote:
let’s make a deal…doug, stop blogging, tweeting, going to conferences, and writing books (in other words, stay in moscow with your kirk) and everyone else will leave you be. Or, maybe wilson should follow this fellows advice and “don’t do any more thinking or writing on ____(insert subject here)”.
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@ andrew:
Great advice! Think Doug will respect your authority? If the commenter is real, and I think he is, and is telling the Bayly Bros (the comment is addressed to David) to shut up and stop thinking about it, and if Doug is aware of this, then it indicates a pretty major falling out.
Meanwhile, several commenters on Doug’s blog keep trying to shut critics up– but Doug keeps posting new articles.
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andrew wrote:
Sounds fair. Ditch Credenda Agenda, while you’re at it. Waste of paper (physical copy) and electrons (online version). And shut down NSA and Greyfriars. That ought to do for starters. Just pastor your own church, and love your people “well” in the real sense of the term. If you’re capable of that, you could live a full life, touch many lives (in a *good* way), and have people remember you fondly and with gratitude, long after you’re gone.
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Dave A A wrote:
You might be in a cult if . . .
1. You are told to stop thinking.
This might not be a Poe. CREC Memes says Mike Lawyer is Wilson’s “counselor buddy.”
https://crecmemes.wordpress.com/2015/09/09/confidentiality/
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@ dee:
🙂
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refugee wrote:
Me thinks that if Hobbs and Miller had pointed out the errors of certain men that the Bayly Brothers disagree with, then their uppity attitude would not be a problem. Come after Patriarchy and you’re out of line!
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refugee wrote:
Me thinks that if Hobbs and Miller had pointed out the errors of certain men that the Bayly Brothers disagree with, then their uppity attitude would not be a problem. Come after Patriarchy and you’re out of line!BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
The leader in my former Christian cult addressed people directly in front of the whole group, calling them such choice names as: ghoul, trip, game player, dark, manipulative, shooting star, dirty old man/lady, contentious….and these are just a small selection.
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Weird, I don’t know how my most recent post ended up like that.
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Well, it’s a good start. I hope they keep pulling on the thread and realize that the pastoral approach that they disapprove of is a direct result of unchristian and destructive ecclesiology.
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Here is the heartbreaking story of Natalie Rose, the young girl that was sexually abused by Jamin Wight. The incompetent handling of this sexual abuser at Christ Church is inexcusable.
https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2015/09/08/the-jamin-c-wight-story-the-other-child-molester-in-doug-wilsons-closet/
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Katie Botkin posts a letter written by Doug Wilson to Natalie Rose’s father, Gary.
http://kbotkin.com/2015/09/10/the-letter-on-christ-church-stationary/
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@ BeenThereDoneThat:
After reading that letter, it sure seems like Doug Wilson has a screwed up idea of how to handle a sex offenders on his church. I’m surprised he hasn’t been sued.
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Bridget wrote:
The Idaho Supreme Court gave an August 2015 favorable ruling to child sexual abuse victims suing in their state, here: http://www.clearwatertribune.com/news/online_only_news/idaho-supreme-court-rules-survivors-of-boy-scout-and-mormon/article_45674bbe-5035-11e5-83c1-674476584a73.html
Let’s hope more victims come forward and do just that.
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That story Darlene posted of the girl who was abused for 3 years is sickening. I have largely viewed the Sitler case as a misguided, stupid act by a pastor who illogically felt that marriage could cure a pedophile. But, the details of how this other case was handled by DW just seem to scream wickedness.
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I wonder if the Baylys are aware of this letter, and Katie’s post.
Kyrie eleison
Christe eleison
Kyrie eleison
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refugee wrote:
Your experience may be worse than mine, but I do know about manipulative Christians (giving them the benefit of the doubt), and the damage that can be done by them, e.g. shepherding and discipleship errors. My experience in my old Baptist church made me a life-time enemy of narrowmindedness. Strong convictions on doctrine are fine, group-think and being unnecessarily exclusive, not.
I’m afraid I think Douglas Wilson is winning the argument over his handling of this so far. It badly needs someone with wisdom and relevant experience of these matters to talk to him, and give a more objective assessment of what actually happened. No-one but those directly involved actually knows what went on. Some of it is rightly confidential, but a third party with no axe to grind could be made party to this to help bring light into the rumour mill. A refusal of Wilson to agree to actually do this would be srong testimony that he did in fact handle things badly and can’t bring himself to admit it.
His current piece contains a lot that one of my former pastors would have strongly agreed with, and I would have to concur with him. Not thinking that we stay hopelessly encumbered with our past, that real change isn’t possible. Of being an eternal sinner or an eternal victim as though these have to be life sentences, even of thinking some sins are so grievous they cannot be forgiven. This is a kind of ‘limited atonement’, but what right to we, as forgiven sinners ourselve, have to try to limit what level of sin God may forgive.
I’m happy to pray that Wilson will meet with third parties (including the proprieters here), to try to bring some good out of this terrible evil.
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BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
DW is fond of throwing out certain Proverb verses at people who he has issues with.
Well I have one for him.
Proverbs 16:18
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+16:18&version=NASB
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Years ago I was so frustrated that the likes of Driscoll, Phillips, Gothard, and Wilson were held up by the church leaders as paragons of virtue and theological integrity. I could see how young pups could be suckered into all the pomp and delusion. But leaders in the church should have known better and had some sort of discernment.
Now I’m frustrated at the emotional, spiritual, and/or sexual carnage surrounding the fall of each of these men. It should have never gone as far as it did, in each case.
But in any event, I am glad that these things have finally been brought to light.
May the church learn from this.
May more of the false leaders be exposed for what they are.
And may their be an abundance of spiritual ambulance and emergency room workers to clean up and heal the human wreckage.
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Patty in Massachusetts wrote:
I’ll bet they are now.
Natie’s take on the letter here: http://natalierose-livewithpassion.blogspot.com/2015/09/when-doug-wrote-to-my-father.html?m=1
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Bridget wrote:
On first reading I just focused on the ‘document everything you do’ remark, which appeared to be unintentionally wise on a number of fronts – not least how this situation has subsequently turned out.
Then you get to *why* he was being asked to document things, and that paragraph all about showing mercy – and it’s hard not to read a veiled threat into the whole thing.
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“The only thing that causes me pause is this. How do you know that said pedophile is serious? Most of them have asexual orientation that means they prefer children. This may be a preference that will last until the end of their lives. I believe that it is rare that a pedophile no longer struggles with this orientation.
“I am inclined to consider celibacy unless the pedophile undergoes chemical castration.”
I’ve never looked at this in depth, so I don’t know for sure if it’s possible for a pedophile to make enough progress in treatment to become capable of a normal adult relationship. If I’m wrong about this, then I would completely agree with you about the use of chemical castration and permanent celibacy.
Of course, what are the odds that Doug Wilson has actually taken the time to thoroughly educate himself on pedophilia, and rates of rehabilitation?
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Velour wrote:
So now we have “2 witnesses” to this little-discussed abusive aspect of Patriarchy– Katie’s dad and Natalie’s dad. Fathers who aren’t “officers” or “elders” or whatever are made the fall guys when something goes wrong. They supposededly failed to “protect” their daughters properly. It’s not all about “men” keeping women underfoot, as is sometimes simplistically said. Beta males must be kept underfoot by Alphas. Read Gary’s comment On Stollar’s blog to get the broken heart of a father who still feels a load of guilt. And the Patriarchs keep pilin’ it on. I have my own story along this line, but it’s so innocuous by comparison, and yet I still feel so guilty about my role, that I can’t share it now.
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@ Dave A A:
“Natie’s” should be “Natalie’s”
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Mara wrote:
Now tha Natalie has spoken again, we get a better idea how this works. The Kirkelders wanted her to meet with them so they could learn why she stopped attending– but at the same time were supporting the perp. Any wonder she didn’t feel comfortable talking with them?
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Dave A A wrote:
The Kirkelders did threaten to suspend the perp from the Supper, should his repentance not pan out— just the same as they threatened to suspend the victim’s father from the Supper, should he not “protect” his daughter in the ways they dictated.
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What I find strange is that the attitude of a “man of god” never seems to be on trial in these things. He has to commit some awful sin witnessed by everyone for it to stick. And then, often, after some time out, he’s let back into his position. In the meantime, he can be a completely dismissive, condescending, haughty, disingenuous (If not lying) jackass, but he’s untouchable because… Man of god. Two or three witnesses!! How many witnesses does it take to discern if a “man of god” is a jackass or not?
On the other hand, “touching the Lord’s anointed” because the red flags are up and alarms are going off about their attitudes and behaviors (on top of allegations of crimes, abuse of authority, etc) is slander and “discernment porn” as it was labeled on Twitter moments ago.
What does it take to wake people up??
I have a screenshot of a smart guy with his head so far up his he can almost see the light out of his mouth. It’s infuriating.
Sorry. I had to get that out.
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Wilson has a new post up.
“Now because he has been welcomed into your fellowship, as he ought to have been, he meets a Christian woman whom he would like to marry, and she would like to marry him. He manifestly does not have the gift of celibacy. Do you bless it? Do you okay it, but make him get married by the justice of the peace? Or do you forbid it?”
Like much of evangelicalism, Wilson here speaks of celibacy as if it is a spiritual gift that not every Christian has, and former sexual offenders obviously don’t have this gift, or they wouldn’t be sexual offenders—therefore they should marry if possible. This is a definite contrast to Tim Bayly saying he would tell such an offender to live as a eunuch for the kingdom of God.
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Then there was this:
“Or you might forbid it because you think that the “identity” of pedophilia is something that simply cannot be surmounted. This collides with the gospel as outlined above, and it is also inconsistent with what we say about things like homosexual temptations. A homosexual who cannot desire a member of the opposite sex should not get married. But that is not true of all homosexuals. Some can and do marry, and those who can, and who have the opportunity, should. Do we want to say that pedophilia lies closer to the bone than does homosexuality? Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn’t.”
Wilson and the elders apparently were convinced Steve Sitler was in the category of those who are not only repentant, but capable of a normal sexual relationship with with a spouse.
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Ok, last one:
“Then there is another thing. If you forbid marriage to someone who is not gifted with celibacy, under pain of excommunication if he marries, then you have painted yourself into quite a medieval corner. You now have as a “mortal sin” the sin of marriage, which God did not prohibit, as opposed to the “venial” sins of porn and hookers, which He did prohibit. The church, trying to head off one possible sin, ought never to make other sins fairly certain.”
If Wilson is referring to a repentant, genuine Christian here, this brings up the issue of self-control, one of the fruits of the Spirit. Earlier he makes a comparison with a Christian who has forsaken the sin of homosexuality. If such a person finds they are not attracted to anyone of the opposite sex, then they should not marry, according to Doug. Yet if they used to be caught in this sin, and don’t seem to have acquired the *gift of celibacy* after conversion, then what?
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GovPappy wrote:
You can’t assemble witness because it would be gossip and would be divisive.
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Dave A A wrote:
This latest story of a 13 year old receiving implied blame for the abuse from and adult male put the last piece in place for me. I can only figure it is projection by their leaders to believe the moral failure of the adult male should be mitigated by implying they were seduced … by a 13 year old. Are they so morally weak? This is the same thing in kind as putting women in a chador or worse a burka because the view of a well turned ankle will send them off into lustful thoughts or actions.
These patriarchs set themselves up as superior but blame their moral failures on their women. I’ll call them males as they fall far short of men.
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@ GovPappy:
I find Twitter annoying and hard to follow, but I looked that guy up. I see he also manages to play the “you need the gospel” and “what church are you apart (sic) of” cards. I also learned to whom Wilson was replying in his mysterious “I don’t think so” post. Doug seems to have increased this twitterer’s followers nearly 100% already, from16 to 30! If Doug thought no one should care about tweets with few followers, why did he write a whole post in response?
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Dave A A wrote:
Spot on, Dave A A. These patriarchal, authoritarian churches will just as easily throw a good man *under the bus* as they will throw women and girls.
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Bill M wrote:
Usually, yes, but sometimes this would cause them PR problems. In such cases, such as these two, they blame the women’s (or girls’) fathers.
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NJ wrote (quoting someone else, apparently):
I know I’ve said this before on several occasions, but this sort of theology completely denies reality.
The sad truth is you can convert to Christianity (accept Christ), but still deal with some of the same issues you had prior to your conversion, whatever they may be.
I accepted Christ as a pretty young age, but that did not stop me from having clinical depression later in life nor rid me of anxiety, and low self esteem.
None of this is to say I think people are incapable of controlling themselves. I do think they can.
But a lot of Christians assume accepting Jesus totally eradicates any previous problems, but it doesn’t always.
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NJ wrote:
There’s no such thing. I’m a virgin over the age of 40. I have a sex drive.
It’s sheer self discipline and a one-time adherence of obedience to God and the Bible that kept me from from having sex. God did not give me a desire to be celibate nor remove my sex drive.
This teaching – that singleness or celibacy are “gifted” to some and not others, that it’s a calling God sends some people – needs to be eradicated from Christianity.
This teaching makes it sound like sexual self control is possibly only to a tiny minority of “Super Christians,” when, in reality, it’s possible for anyone to abstain as long as I have.
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Excellent article about Doug Wilson’s failure to protect children on a Presbyterian blog:
http://vintage73.com/2015/09/doug-wilsons-failure-to-safeguard-children/
Julie Anne, from the Spiritual Sounding Board, just tweeted this out.
Also, Doug Wilson posted a reply today at 8:01 a.m. over at Katie Botkin’s blog/article covering the subject.
http://kbotkin.com/2015/09/10/the-letter-on-christ-church-stationary/#comments
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@ Dave A A:
I think the “what church are you a part of” thing is a sneaky way to set up straw men and ad hominems. You can’t win, unless you just happen to go to a church approved by the questioner. If you don’t align yourself with a church (ie, under their authority), they have to actually get to know the person they’re dealing with–see where they’re coming from, why they believe things–not apply labels, deal with abstract theological issues, etc. It’s a game of cat and mouse.
And Wilson spilled the beans there, just like Chandler did with his narcissistic zero comment. You have to be a “somebody”–under authority, or somebody in authority–for you to have any respect from them.
Which is why I love being anon as @GovPappy. Either you tip your hand by ignoring questions/criticism, by directly asking who I’m affiliated with (by what authority do you say these things!?), or by engaging simply as one human being to another.
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@ Ken:
I do not expect Wilson to agree to any meetings. I don’t think he will “stoop” (in his mind) to that. Maybe I’m too cynical, but I don’t recall him ever conceding a point after digging himself this far in a hole.
And personally, I’m not sure how he’s “winning” as you say. Reading the public court documents, Sitler was clear from the beginning that he wanted to have children if he got married. That should have been a big tip-off to everyone involved that marriage was a bad idea. And do you have any evidence that pedophiles frequently transform into non-pedophiles? I don’t see how we’re denying that “real change is possible” if we point out that pedophiles’ attractions usually stay that way. It’s not being “hopelessly encumbered by the past” to recognize that you have a psychological condition and it’s not going away. There seems to be this common line of reasoning that just because it’s possible for God to take away something like pedophilia, means that He commonly does, and that we should assume this is actually going to happen in any decision-making process. I.e., assume a miracle (complete removal of pedophilia) as a starting point even though it should be clear even from the Bible that this just isn’t how God works most of the time. This is a really dangerous way to operate that’s just going to produce more and more Sitlers, IMO.
And that’s not even touching any of the stuff surrounding the Jamin Wight case, which from what I’ve read (seminary student “repented” but then, oops, strangled and abused his wife, IIRC), is even more damning of Wilson than the Sitler case. Taken together, it’s pretty clear there’s a problem in Moscow. I’m glad CPS is finally involved, and I hope the child gets out of harm’s way fast and/or Sitler is put in a position where he can’t hurt any more children.
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It appears DW may have commented on Katie Botkin’s post concerning the letter written to Gary, father of Natalie, victim of Wight.
http://kbotkin.com/2015/09/10/the-letter-on-christ-church-stationary/#comment-8167
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DW said on Katie’s blog
“Katie, I will state here what I said in the comments on my blog. If you post a release in writing from Gary, Pat, and Natalie, giving me permission to answer the question posed by this letter — e.g. why did we say Gary failed to protect his daughter — I would be delighted to answer the question.”
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Hester wrote:
I agree with you.
I just wanted to chime in to say it’s been my experience that most Christians, on Christian television programming and in testimonies during services, almost always present these sorts of stories.
I hardly ever hear testimonies from Christians who prayed for years from deliverance from “thus and so” who were denied.
You will seldom hear about the Christians who asked for financial help, relationship restoration, or physical or mental healing, and it never came (at least you won’t hear this on Christian TV and in church services).
I usually only hear a story from people who say something like this: ‘I had cancer. After praying for a healing, I was totally healed from cancer two seconds later.’
Or substitute “cancer” with being broke, a marriage on the rocks, a kid who was in a coma in the hospital, being unemployed and having a hard time find a job – whatever it is.
I keep waiting for Christians to get honest and start broadcasting testimonies from those of us who prayed for help for years, but God said “No.”
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Hester wrote:
Do you have links to this story/info?
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Was Gary, Natalie’s father the one who said that dealing with Wilson and his church was like dealing with cops who came and arrested you when your house was robbed because you only had one lock on your door rather than six?
Or am I thinking of something else?
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@ Mara:
Katie Botkin’s been writing about it:
http://kbotkin.com/2015/09/09/wilson-on-pedophiles-and-spotting-the-wolves/
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@ Mara:
From what I’ve read about the case (which admittedly is not as much as the Sitler case), I’m not sure what Natalie’s father could have possibly done that outweighs years of statutory rape by Wight, unless Wilson is sitting on proof of gross negligence – actual negligence, not patriarchy “negligence” (like letting her wear a tank top) – and/or knowledge of the abuse and a failure to stop it. I’ll be interested to see how KB responds.
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@ Mara:
Yes.
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2006/idaho-pastor-hard-liner-exception-or-two
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Daisy wrote:
My church requires its clergy to be single and celibate. During the Middle Ages, clergy were the “Super Christians”. Celibacy was considered a special Call To Holiness and became (in general belief, not officially) the sign They Were Holier Than Those In The Pews.
Then during the Protestant Reformation, most of the Reformers who split married as a direct one-eighty opposite to the Catholics and single or married clergy became a tribal identifier of Whose Side You Were On. As Entropy set in, Salvation by Marriage Alone became a Protestant Sacrament. (Clergy — in the form of Pastors and Missionaries — remained Super Christians, Holier Than The Pewsitters.)
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Bill M wrote:
Don’t forget the one-step-beyond the burqa: Honor Killings.
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GovPappy wrote:
A ManaGAWD Can Do No Wrong.
And once you accept this and agree with the ManaGAWD in everything (and TITHE TITHE TITHE), We Won’t Have A Problem, Will We?
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Darlene wrote:
Boz T saw the same over and over and over in his years as a prosecutor specializing in child sex abuse cases. If there was a church involved anywhere in the case, said church would ALWAYS take the side of the perp against the victim.
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@ Daisy:
Hmmm, I prayed that perhaps I might be healed from my blood cancer…then I got a breast cancer. I still pray for good health, courage and grace. I know I am not alone in this battle with my body, just as their are millions who struggle with limited finances, death of loved ones, mental health issues, etc amidst a world that is warring, starving , despairing. The real christan story and testimony is God does abandon us… and, good people, kind people help us in our needy state, not in our “miracles.”
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“God does NOT abandon..”
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@ Daisy:
Yeah. And if you question them or wonder how common they are, you’re accused of “denying God’s power” etc. etc. (Not to mention many or most of the televangelists’ stories end up being fake.)
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@ Retha:
Yes! I want to read! Thank you.
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@ Daisy:
It’s not too much to ask for a little balance and honesty is it?
Miracles do occur. They’re miracles for a reason though. It’s not science, or a formula, or a “God would have given you a miracle if ______” thing.
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I wonder . . . The Consolidation of Terms and Conditions for Sitler’s probation are up on moscowid. Number 23 says, “The Defendant will answer all questions asked of him during the polygraph examinations truthfully. If any answer reveals deception it shall be a violation of Defendant’s Terms and Conditions of Probation.”
http://sitler.moscowid.net/2015/09/08/consolidation-of-terms-and-conditions-of-probation/consolidation-probation-9/
Wouldn’t a violation send him back to jail? Reports said that results of his recent polygraph tests were very troubling.
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Joseph Bayly has just posted a new blog that is quite good–he makes a pretty strong rebuttal and takes a stand against Wilson’s blog. He seems to have a different take on “the Gospel” than Wilson as to where pedophiles’ liberty in Christ should extend. Worth reading!!
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@ Corbin:
Who’s Tim Bayly?
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@ Christiane:
The Bayly Brother who, with his wife, wrote the first article (now retracted) supporting Wilson, followed by one much more critical.
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@ nancyjane:
That’s definitely the best one they’ve put out on the subject.
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First!?!?
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Aw, Snap! The new article I requested has not yet been posted.
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Dave A A wrote:
It would be nice if Kamilla, from that blog, would apologize for what she said in defense of the pedophile and Wilson. Mirele was over there blogging and tweeting and did a FANTASTIC job at setting them straight!
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Nancy2 wrote:
That struck me, too! DW can nibble on my lawn anytime. I’ll be the woman on the porch, recording the whole spectacle for all to enjoy. (Giggling wildly).
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I’m just enjoying this day at the computer, reading articles, Facebook, the usual…and I happened upon an old Bayly Brothers blog post that amused me. Although I must say it isn’t amusing in a delightful sense. Read the poem and the comment section. That poem, written by Mrs. Joseph Tate Bayly, reveals the true nature of Patriarchy – one that clearly shows the wife in a place of idolizing her husband. A place that only Christ should have.
http://baylyblog.com/blog/2008/08/i-think-you-want-wife?cid=127453610#comment-127453610
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Darlene wrote:
That poem and the comments supporting it say, in essence, women are completely worthless.
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@ Darlene:
@ Nancy2:
There was a discussion about this poem over here that I was part of back in the day:
https://whitewashedfeminist.wordpress.com/2008/08/22/a-real-gem-from-the-bayly-blog/
You might like the comments there a whole lot better.
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https://whitewashedfeminist.wordpress.com/2008/08/22/a-real-gem-from-the-bayly-blog/
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Mara wrote:
Mara, thanks! It just so happens I found this site while browsing around.
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Tim addresses his “unrelated to him by blood…” comment, in the comments section of his most recent blog. Show him grace. He’s not perfect and he’s not scared to admit it, like so many of you claim against. If you’ve sat in even one of his sermons, and talked to him afterwards, you’d have no doubt that he is quicker to admit of his wrongs than most would be. Those of you who profess to be Christians on here, shouldn’t we be praying for brothers in Christ, rather than ripping apart every finest detail of each other. Calling each other to repentance is good, but we need to do it with compassion. We need strong leaders and Tim is one. Faithful pastors are dropping like flies, and instead of feeling pompous and superior when we see one fall like Doug, let’s pray that God rise them up. We have NO idea how incredibly hard of a position these men are in. And we also don’t know every detail. Extend grace and mercy to the man (Tim). Call me a troll if you want. Just as you call Tim’s followers sycophants, are you not yourselves with your own stubbornness? As for the calling him a narcissist….it’s comical. It goes to show that you don’t know scripture and you don’t know the man.
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Cvd wrote:
Oh, I know scripture. And Jesus says that you shall know men by their fruit.
I appreciate them not supporting DW’s support and protection of pedophiles. Such a turn has given me a little more respect for them than I had before. However, there are other areas where they get scripture so very wrong. And the fruit of their error stinketh.
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Mara wrote:
Where do you think Tim gets scripture wrong? I genuinely would like to know.
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Cvd wrote:
I did read that, and it helped to clarify where he’s coming from.
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Cvd wrote:
I’m not Mara, but I’ll answer. Tim gets scripture wrong from the very beginning. He sees hierarchy of men over women where none exists. Genesis 1:26-28.
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27
So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
God gave dominion to men and women over the earth … he did not give the man dominion over the woman. They were to rule it together. The scripture refers to the woman as ezer kenegdo — which means strong help/rescuer/ally. It does not mean “subordinate helper who takes his orders” as female subordinationists seem to think. Of the 20-some times the word ezer is used in scripture, all but one time it refers to God. Tim’s “Creation Order” is nothing more than pure eisegesis, based on his sinful, carnal wish for preeminence over women. He must read this so-called “creation order” into the scripture, because it is not there in the first place.
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You’re right in that men and women have dominion over the earth. I have authority over my garden and the animals around me, just as my husband does. Men and women rule the earth; that is what God was establishing in Genesis 1, but Genesis 2 is where God then establishes the relationship BETWEEN man and woman. There are many others verses about Gods command for wives submitting to their husbands and stating that wives are the weaker vessel. Scripture is eternally true. We hate hearing that women are the weaker vessel, it goes against everything in this culture, but this is how God created us. We want to twist scripture and make it fit our comfort level. We’re not the progressive ones, our society is turning away from God more and more. We ARE equal (Genesis 1), but our roles are entirely different (Genesis 2). We think we understand equality more than our Heavenly Father. We don’t. He created equality, not us. The roles He gave us are equal in His eyes. We’re the sinners, which is why we must humble ourselves before God. If we understood everything He did and chose to do, then we wouldn’t need God would we?
It has been such a relief for me to finally follow my role God commands of me. I don’t have to bear the burden of leading and providing because that is my husbands job that God has established (I get that there is a time and place for a woman to work). And it’s a joy to go along side him and help him in his work. Saying men and women have equal roles, is like saying Jesus is equal with the church. It’s clear that Jesus has higher authority over the church (His bride), yet we as His church love Him and obey Him. We are HELPING His kingdom come, while He also loves us and guides us. Now does God bully us, or abuse His power and make us feel worthless? No. This is one reason why the picture and relationship of Jesus Christ and His bride was created, so that we can see how our own marriages should look. There are too many verses in the New Testament to list about wives submitting to their husbands but here is one:
Ephesians 5:22-33New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Marriage Like Christ and the Church
22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church [a]in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29 for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30 because we are members of His body. 31 For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. 32 This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she [b]respects her husband.
That is a lot of responsibility for the husband right? They don’t have it easy, but because we are sinners, women want to be men and men want to be women. We want to completely rebel against Gods creation order: Adam THEN Eve.
@ Leila:
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Cvd wrote:
I have no desire to be a man, thank you. Speak for yourself and your rebellion. There is no “creation order” doctrine that places a husband over his wife. I was taught to believe complementarian teachings for most of my Christian life. I no longer believe in the teachings of comps. I saw the harm it did to many women. I also don’t believe that wives should be over their husbands. We are one in Christ with each of us bringing our God given gifts to the marriage.
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Darlene wrote:
Always remember, and never forget,
Christian gender complementarianism and Patriarchy equals Codependency.
One common feature of codependency is that the codependent will make a person into their end-all, be-all, and that person ends up becoming a little Deity to the codependent. Something which God frowns on, as he wants you to rely primarily on Him, not another person (which does not mean God cannot or does not work through other people).
But you have Christian gender comps (and patriarchalists) encouraging women to be codependent, to set their husband up as the center of their universe, hand over all or most of their decision making processes to a spouse, etc, something which the Bible actually condemns.
The Bible teaches all people are responsible for themselves, and under Christ, people do not need an intermediate (a husband, a priest, or any man) to act as their divine go-between.
Complementarians and Christian patriarchalists just sprout off false teaching after false teaching after false teaching, all the while thinking they are stamping out cultural problems (the chief one in their thinking being secular feminism).
Reminds me of some Bible verse where, is it Jesus?, who predicted there was a time when religious types would snuff you (Christians) out, but claiming they had God’s approval for it, that they were doing God a favor but were horribly wrong about that.
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Nancy2 wrote:
I don’t know if I can click and go read it, it might make me vomit, but are you sure there aren’t the usual sexist disclaimers, such as,
“But honest, you are equal in WORTH!!,” and, “But remember ladies, you do have value in the fact that you can get pregnant and reproduce. Motherhood is the only or most godly role a woman can ever fulfill.”
Such people usually alienate infertile women, childfree women, or women who were unable to marry (and hence have kids).
They don’t care, though. They usually love to remind women in their posts that while women are by and large worthless, they do come in awful handy for making babies and for making sammiches (sandwiches) for their husbands.
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@ Cvd:
I can’t call sexism nice just because the people perpetuating it are usually nice guys in person, or because their sexism comes from what they consider “good intentions.”
Benevolent sexism
http://news.nationalpost.com/life/benevolent-sexism-men-who-open-doors-for-women-can-be-as-sexist-as-those-who-are-rude-to-them-study-finds
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Cvd wrote:
I don’t have the time right now to address your entire post, but this was one part I wanted to bring up.
Are you aware that some of the other Christians who believe as you do teach that Jesus Christ is eternally subordinate to God the Father, the Jesus is “lesser” than God? They sure do. The teaching is called ESS, Eternal Subordination of the Son.
Outside of legitimate authorities mentioned in Romans ch 13 (eg, governments, judges, police officers, etc), women aren’t called to “obey” husbands or other men in the Bible – only to obey God.
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@ Bridget:
I agree. Women being asked to be treated with respect and to be given equal opportunities is not tantamount to women trying to be men.
About creation order:
The Complementarian Concept of “The Created Order”
http://newlife.id.au/equality-and-gender-issues/the-created-order/
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Cvd wrote:
Cvd, you are reading a whole bunch into scripture … and you conveniently forget Eph v 5:21, where Christians are told to submit to one another. As for the rest of it – there are excellent resources out there that do a far better job than I can explaining why hierarchy in marriage is unbiblical.
But I do have one question for you. Can you show me the verse in the Bible where God tells the husband that he has authority over his wife? Or the verse that says he is “the spiritual leader”?
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Cvd wrote:
Yes, in the OT, humans were called to have dominion over the earth. Through the Jesus-lens, that means we are to be stewards, to take care of the earth so that it maintains health/balance, and to leave it to the next generation better than it is now.
Mutuality is much harder work than the OT ideas of authority. It doesn’t really “fit our comfort level” as you say disparagingly, although the results are more satisfying for everyone. As I see it, you feel relief and joy in letting your husband make the money, and lead your relationship, because you have given up part of the job. Or perhaps your peace is from deciding together that this is how you two want to function in your relationship right now. That would be excellent.
Mutuality can be any number of things. It might be as you and spouse are doing, or it might be that both take on half of housework and keep careers going. The basic principle is that because both sets of brains/hearts have peer ability, decisions are best made together.
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Bridget wrote:
When I said “men want to become women and vice versus,” I meant in roles, not physical being…women want to rule right? We see this all throughout society right now. This is sin. By the grace of God I don’t rebel in this way, but if Christ weren’t in me, I would, and I’m a sinner, I still have to fight the temptation.
Yes! We are one in Christ, and He did give us certain gifts, it’s beautiful. He’s been gracious enough to tell us how He wants order. Why are we getting so upset at what scripture tells us to do? It’s clear men and women aren’t physically equal right? God created us differently. If He wanted men and women to have the same roles, why didn’t He just create man(male) or just female?
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Cvd wrote:
The loveliest thing about mutuality is that both people are able to be fully how God created them. They bring their God-invented gifts/strengths to the marriage and use them on behalf of each other.
The fact that talents/strengths often don’t run along gender lines shows that God makes far less of gender than we do. I don’t want to disrespect God by ignoring the gifts He gave me because I am a wife, or by refusing to use them because they are outside socially approved conventions for women.
Analogies are limited comparisons. Over-extending them can get us into dangerous territory. The analogy “Jesus is to the church as husbands are to wives”, doesn’t mean that husbands have as much authority over wives as Jesus has over the church. The analogy openly limits itself to love—that Jesus loved the church so much that he died for it, and similarly the husband should love his wife so much that he’d be willing to die for her. That is rather different.
I wish you well, Cvd, and all happiness in your marriage.
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Cvd wrote:
Huh? What do you mean by *rule* and what do you mean by sin as it applies to this? I have no idea to what you are referring.
Are you oppose to Carly Fiorina running for President? Is this what you mean by rule? And as for men who run churches, it is almost silly to look at this as *ruling.* You have a few people who follow one pastor who can leave at any time so he does not rule over them in any sense of the word since they can leave at will.
Now, you could go to North Korea and find a cruel dictator who you could say *rules.* But the only true ruler, for now and eternity is Jesus Christ.
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Cvd wrote:
I don’t know about that. Jesus was born into the roman culture and things were kind of funky during that time as well. And then there were the so called Christians who did horrendous things like the Inquisition and the Crusades.
Just because more people attended church in the 1940s does not mean they were following God. The were following a cultural tradition which discriminated against people of color. I think discrimination and slavery was society turning against God.
So, perhaps you would like to tell us how, where and when society started turning against God more and more. Warning- do not bring up the Puritans. Dee comes from Salem and I have some info about their acts against God as well.
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Cvd wrote:
What in the world are you taking about? Examples please.
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Cvd wrote:
How do you know that we aren’t doing so. And we can go after any man who acts like a jerk in public. If you want the public to listen to you, you don’t get to demand what the public sees and hears. If you don’t want critique, don’t go public.
Just like here. I go public so you get to come over here and tell us how we don’t know our Bible and how we all want to *rule*, etc.
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Daisy wrote:
Such people usually alienate infertile women, childfree women, or women who were unable to marry (and hence have kids).
They don’t care, though. They usually love to remind women in their posts that while women are by and large worthless, they do come in awful handy for making babies and for making sammiches (sandwiches) for their husbands.
I’m sorry I came off as alienating women who aren’t married or cannot have children. Where God has you is good, because God is good..always. If you’re single, then He’s probably using you in awesome ways at your job. If you’re infertile, that is what God has given you and Ge makes very good use of your situation. I just talked and prayed with a woman tonight who’s having trouble conceiving due to infertility and we both praised God because He’s using her and opening her heart to love those who are motherless and fatherless. You are absolutely no less of a woman if you are single or can’t have children. But in scripture, infertility is always seen as bad and it is a result of the fall. Fruitfulness should be the desire of every Christian.
I also never said we were worthless…was Jesus worthless to God even though He fully submitted himself to Gods authority while here on earth? Not by any means. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equal, yet have different roles.
“But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.”
1 Corinthians 11:3 NASB
Why are you so angry at making meals and bearing children, someone has to do it right? Can a male bear a child? God clearly designed women to be mothers. Whether that be a mother to a co-worker, your neighbor or a child God has given you. Yes, God created women to be motherly.
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I don’t know why it didn’t separate Daisies comment. Sorry.
I’m sorry I came off as alienating women who aren’t married or cannot have children. Where God has you is good, because God is good..always. If you’re single, then He’s probably using you in awesome ways at your job. If you’re infertile, that is what God has given you and Ge makes very good use of your situation. I just talked and prayed with a woman tonight who’s having trouble conceiving due to infertility and we both praised God because He’s using her and opening her heart to love those who are motherless and fatherless. You are absolutely no less of a woman if you are single or can’t have children. But in scripture, infertility is always seen as bad and it is a result of the fall. Fruitfulness should be the desire of every Christian.
I also never said we were worthless…was Jesus worthless to God even though He fully submitted himself to Gods authority while here on earth? Not by any means. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equal, yet have different roles.
“But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.”
1 Corinthians 11:3 NASB
Why are you so angry at making meals and bearing children, someone has to do it right? Can a male bear a child? God clearly designed women to be mothers. Whether that be a mother to a co-worker, your neighbor or a child God has given you. Yes, God created women to be motherly.
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Cvd wrote:
No, that is not what I see in society. Most women do not want to rule over anyone. They simply want to be treated as equals. Sure there are some women, like their are some men, who want to have power to abuse and Lord over others. That is wrong. There are not different gifts for men and women. The same gifts are given to all. Women, children, the weak, the poor have been exploited by men forever.
Cvd wrote:
I am not upset with scripture. I simply disagree with your interpretation of some scriptures.
Cvd wrote:
I think reproduction comes into play as far as our bodies are concerned 😉 God did not give men certain roles and women other roles in scripture. That is man’s projection onto the scripture.
My husband and I can function quite lovely without all the extra added roles that men want to add into the relationship. We are no more, or less, Godly than you and your spouse.
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Cvd wrote:
Hhm. Roles. There’s that word again. Too bad it is neither a biblical term nor represents a biblical concept.
That word was coined to push a doctrine that makes cookie-cutter, plastic Christians, easy to control by power hungry men.
This gender doctrine concerning roles has been built by using a few verses taken out of context while ignoring a whole lot of other verses especially verses in red. A lot of scripture twisting and adding to is done in order to prop up your non-biblical ideology.
Then this false doctrine is enforced with threats that if these roles aren’t followed, it will be the end of civilization as we know it.
Jesus preached against the traditions of men. Yet men come in and push their role doctrine on people saying they are the words of Jesus. Not so.
People here are more interested in the real gospel than the false gender, creation order gospel that DW embraces. The creation order gospel is no gospel at all because it is bad news for everyone, especially women and children.
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dee wrote:
I shouldn’t have assumed that you aren’t praying, you’re right. I’m not trying to act like a jerk, I’m simply arguing back. If that’s jerkish then it goes both ways sista.
I don’t believe you know what the Bible says about headship, so I still hold to that.
Have you seen the rise of feminism? Feminism is women wanting to take control and belittle men. (In reference to your *rule*).
“To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.””
Genesis 3:16 NIV
God tells us women will want to take mans place due to the fall. Yet man will rule over us. Thus means, we desire to rule.
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@ Cvd:
I have a response to you that might not show up until morning.
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dee wrote:
God tells us in Genesis 3:16 that due to the Fall women will want to take the mans duty, yet He will rule over us. Society right now is a good picture of this truth. Feminism is on the rise; which is women wanting to take power and belittle men.
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Cvd wrote:
It doesn’t say that. It says that a woman’a desire will be for her husband and he will use that desire to rule over her.
A woman’s desire should be for God. But because of the fall she had to overcome her desire for her husband.
I see this desire in women for men over and over again. I’ve seen women lose their children because they crave fellowship with men so bad.
The interpretation that you give is a recent and aberrant one. And not supportable with any real evidence.
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Cvd wrote:
Cvd wrote:
I don’t know why you chide women for being angry/upset about making meals, bearing children, and not being able to lift as much weight as men. They aren’t angry about that, but about being reduced to only that. God gave humans peer value, and additionally He showered gifts onto them with no concern for gender. Why wouldn’t people be upset/angry by artificial limitations?
I am saddened (not angry/upset) by your assumption that God created hierarchy so that there’d be order, because hierarchy has caused great damage in the church throughout history. We humans are inclined to pride and the temptation to power-over is too much. That is why it is made clear that in Christ, there is no jew/gentile, no male/female, no slave/free. That is why Jesus said the first shall be last and the last first. And again, that we are to call no one teacher except the Holy Spirit.
God provides order by endowing us with aforementioned various strengths/talents which are meant to used for each other and the group. The order we have is organic, coming from the Holy Spirit who resides within each of us. It is a living structure that moves/breathes with the needs/goals of the group through time. We are a body.
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Leila wrote:
Ephesians 5:21
Is simply a lead in to the 20 verses. Paul isn’t telling spouses to be mutually submissive, he’s telling Christians to submit to those who have authority over them.
Have you read the next three verses?
“Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.”
Ephesians 5:22-24 NIV
1 corinthians 11 in reference to your authority question. Being “head over,” means being the leader/having authority. Leaders are our authority (government, parents, elders, husbands etc..).
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Mara wrote:
The desire spoken of is bad but it isn’t referring to a woman’s desire for fellowship with a man. It’s referring to her desire to rule him because the clause that “he will rule her,” is the opposite of that desire. The man’s rule, however, is good, it’s established in Genesis two, before the fall.
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Cvd wrote:
Sorry I again don’t have the time or patience to go through this entire reply of yours and will only make a comment or two on this part.
I don’t understand this part of your post.
Men can have warm and fuzzy maternal feelings for people too; it’s not limited to women only because women have uteri.
I have never been fond of children and never really cared if I had one or not.
I can be a sweet, loving person, but maternal I am not. Nor am I interested in playing a motherly role to non-family or even family.
As to this comment of yours:
“Why are you so angry at making meals and bearing children, someone has to do it right?”
I’m not angry about making meals and the idea of women bearing children.
What does make me angry are folks like you who apparently feel that doing women fulfilling such 1950s American cultural expectations are a woman’s only purpose or calling in life.
I don’t have an interest in being a stay at home wife and mom who cooks. And that’s okay. Everyone is different and has different interests, personalities, and pursuits.
Ever since mother died, my father has had to do his own cooking and cleaning for himself. I occasionally help him out, but he’s responsible for his own cooking and cleaning.
That’s another thing, too.
Husbands sometimes get dementia or brain damage, which means all the marital duties fall to the wife.
Gender complementarianism is not only unbiblical, but it does not fit all people, all situations, all life stages. Not all men and women fit into the neat little tidy boxes that gender complementarians try to cram them into.
I was a tom boy as a kid, not a girly girl: I hated playing with dolls and preferred watching Bat Man on TV and playing with Bat Man toys.
Just because women have biological equipment that make many of them capable of carrying a child does not mean God “designed them to be parents.”
You might want to read this:
“Who is my mother and who are my brothers?”
http://www.cbeinternational.org/resources/article/who-my-mother-and-who-are-my-brothers
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Cvd wrote:
Again, you are incorrect on this. This is not what the scripture is saying. The interpretation you are giving is a recent development. Your interpretation got it’s start in the 20th century and is wrong.
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Cvd wrote:
Re: Part 1.
That’s not what Genesis is saying. God was not saying in Genesis that the woman would want any so-called authority from the man.
What is was conveying is that the women would desire to be controlled by the man – women would rather rely on a man for protection, financial support, and stability rather than go to God Himself.
In turn, a lot of men exploit women over this tendency of theirs to over-rely on men and unprincipled, selfish men use and abuse women who go to them seeking protection, funding, etc,, which is what God was warning women of.
And churches keep promoting this very thing (under gender complementarian and patriarachal teachings), that women should be codependent creatures who should get married and rely wholly on, and answer to, a husband for everything, rather than use their God-given brains to make their own choices and to rely on God.
Regarding (Part 2.) of your comment.
I’m not even a feminist and disagree with secular feminists on most every thing, but your explanation of what feminism is is not a correct or honest explanation.
Feminism (even the secular variety) is not about women wanting to step on, or to control men, but only asking to be given equal opportunities in the first place, instead of being held back only due to being female.
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dee wrote:
Yes, our society has and will always fall away from God till Jesus comes again. You’re right, not more and more. I should’ve written that in our particular time, we see the rise of feminism and homosexuality. Both of which deny how God created us. Though there is no sin new under the sun, it is true that particular times and places deal with certain sins more than other sins.
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Mara wrote:
Yes, this. Absolutely spot on.
Also, it’s easier and lazier to go through life as a gender comp married woman, because your husband is not only pressured to hold a job and to pay for everything, but he has to make all or most decisions for the both of you.
Therefore, you, as a married woman, coast through life with little stress and responsibility.
Unless you are in a gender comp marriage to an abusive man, of course.
But assuming a gender comp woman is married to a NON-abusive guy, she gets to coast through life, being child-like even as an adult, while the husband gets stuck shouldering all the grown-up duties and responsibilities. That is why some Christian women find gender comp appealing.
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Cvd wrote:
Headship Madness: Headship In the New Testament
http://www.cbeinternational.org/blogs/headship-madness-headship-new-testament
Eph 5.21 is calling for mutual submission to all believers.
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Cvd wrote:
Oh, Cvd, you’ve been swallowing interpretations that perpetuate the very curse that Genesis says was put on women.
There is a simple exercise to see whether Mara’s, Daisy’s, Leila’s interpretation, or yours, is more accurate. Simply look at human history. Across cultures, for thousands of years, men have subvalued women, abused/raped them, disallowed them outside of their homes, married them off for dowries, treated them as baby machines for heirs, etc. Women allowed this to happen because we so much wanted love from men, and were dependent on them during child-bearing years.
I mean, really, women were “allowed” to vote only 100 years ago! What’s the big deal about women pushing for peer value for the last 30-40 years? Men have been running the show for several thousand years already. Even if these guys’ worst nightmare came true and women began to run the show, so what? Give them a few thousand years, and it’ll be fair&square. We could then see which does better. (I suspect it’d be marginally better, and the best would happen when both work together.)
The real question here is why do men feel so terribly threatened by women’s desire for peer value? So threatened that they try to hoist their nastiness onto God via scriptures?
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Cvd wrote:
No where before the fall is man said to be in charge of the woman, or to be in authority over her.
The text says that the women will desire the man, which means she will look to the man to fill her needs, rather than God, which leaves the woman open to being abused and used by the man, which was what God was warning her (and future women) of.
The Complementarian Concept of “The Created Order”
http://newlife.id.au/equality-and-gender-issues/the-created-order/
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Cvd wrote:
Wow. Quite a twisted version there.
The husband ruling over the wife was part of the curse in Genesis 3:16.
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Cvd wrote:
Has it not occurred to you that secular feminism (of which I am not even a fan of) seeks to correct evils and imbalances against girls and women, something that most Christians have failed to do in our age and for centuries past?
Gender complementarian and Christian patriarchal teachings are basically wanting to keep sexism the status quo in the USA and other nations.
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Nancy2 wrote:
I couldn’t read very far down in the comments; I was getting more and more nauseous. It is a horrible twisting of scripture. Tim Bayly in the comments quoted For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. (Matthew 16:25) — but I think he’s misquoting and misapplying that scripture. We’re supposed to lose our life for *Christ’s* sake, a woman’s identity is supposed to be in Christ, not in a husband.
What a horrible piece of misapplication.
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Daisy wrote:
Part 1: I replied to this same argument to someone else. I can’t remember who, I’m sorry.
Part 2: Men do abuse their power. They are to be understanding and loving of women, but they are sinful. Which is why women want to prove that they have worth; they’re not feeling understood. The issue is that, while feminists are trying to gain being understood, they belittle men while doing so, without even realizing it. This is what I have noticed in the feminists that I know. There may be some who genuinely want equality and not want to prove that they can do everything a man can do (which is what I see). It’s a spiral of doom scenario though. A man can’t do everything a woman can do, and vice versus because of the way God made us.
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@ Bridget:
16 To the woman he said,
“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule over you.”
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Cvd wrote:
As to this:
“Men do abuse their power. They are to be understanding and loving of women, but they are sinful.”
Please see,
John Piper and the No True Complementarian Fallacy
http://www.heretichusband.com/2013/01/john-piper-and-no-true-complementarian.html
You said,
“The issue is that, while feminists are trying to gain being understood, they belittle men while doing so, without even realizing it”
And persons to hold your position are belittling women without even realizing it.
You really seem convinced that the way to fight things you perceive to be shortcomings in society is to cling all the more tightly to gender complementarianism (or whatever label you ascribe to your views on gender roles),
but gender comp isn’t going to cure society… and gender comp actually introduces its own set of problems, and it certainly makes domestic violence worse.
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Cvd wrote:
Nobody outside of very fringe left wing secular feminists believes that men and women are 100% identical in every regard.
Not even Christian egalitarians believe men and women are 100% identical.
But, in many cases, women can do the same things men do, if given the opportunity.
It is not God that puts limits on women, it is Christians the complementarians who do this. The Holy Spirit does not distribute gifts and talents based on gender.
You might want to read this:
Social Science Studies Cannot Define Gender Differences
http://www.cbeinternational.org/resources/article/social-science-studies-cannot-define-gender-differences
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Has it not occurred to you that secular feminism (of which I am not even a fan of) seeks to correct evils and imbalances against girls and women, something that most Christians have failed to do in our age and for centuries past?
Gender complementarian and Christian patriarchal teachings are basically wanting to keep sexism the status quo in the USA and other nations.
If you’re not a fan of it, then why are you defending it? I’m addressing the sector of feminism that wants to belittle men and their duty; that women can do all.
Adam and Eve had different duties. God is clear about that, even before the fall. Sexism happened after the fall because we hate how God originally intended relationships between man and woman. Yes there’s always going to be sexism because we’re sinners. But getting rid of Gods creation order will not bring about repentance. Sexism will only get worse, the more we deny how God intended us to live. Just think: if men actually loved and lived in an understanding way with their wives, and wives respected their husbands…it would be wonderful. We’re just not willing to be content with what God has given us. This is our sin, that we must constantly be repentant of. Turning away from scripture is not the answer.
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Cvd wrote:
I’m sure Tim Bayly taught you all that.
What if he has it wrong?
Donkeys and dolphins were created before Man… does that mean that we are rebelling against God’s creation order by not looking up to them and serving them and calling them Master?
(actually, I think Jesus is the only one we are supposed to call Master, come to think of it.)
I am sorry for you. I sat under this teaching as well, for twenty years, and saw its bitter fruit play out in more families than just my own. I think “one anothering” is a much more biblical approach.
God gave you gifts. He didn’t intend for you to bury your talents (the ones that don’t fit the stay-at-home wife paradigm); he even told a parable about that sort of thing. He didn’t intend for you to subordinate yourself to another human being. He is your Lord and Savior, He is the one you should be living for. Not a mere man, to whom you were given to be a partner.
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I’m sorry, I do not know why it’s not separating our comments. I wrote from:
“If you’re not a fan…” down.
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Cvd wrote:
it is poor debate to criticize the most extreme few among an opponent group, and then to equate that extreme few to the whole group.
It would be like me criticizing your men-lead-women group for Mormon polygamy and then saying you too also believe in polygamy.
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Patrice wrote:
This is a good point. I had forgotten. We joined a complementarian church in the first place, because I wanted to be a stay at home mom, and the “christians” in the more liberal church we were attending were not at all supportive of a mom staying home and taking care of her own children. They thought children should be raised by “professionals” trained for the job, and women should be “fulfilled” in the workplace. They didn’t seem to think a woman could be fulfilled at home.
But I wanted to be there, and so we changed to a more supportive church, with teachings very similar to Tim Bayly’s. (In fact, that church has a warm and close relationship with Tim Bayly.) However, it turned out to be a trap, because they swung the pendulum all the way to the other side, to trap our daughters in the idolatry of elevating Titus2 above all other scripture mention of women — where their *only* “biblical” role would be to aspire to be wives and mothers. No other choices were considered biblical, not even if they had incredible giftings in other areas (think: sports, music oerifrnabce, public speaking, persuasion, writing, counseling others (male and female alike), working with animals, wilderness survival skills, etc. — many of these things considered “unladylike” in our old church)
I watched our daughters try their hardest to be “ladylike” and icons of biblical womanhood… and sink further and further into despair.
Yes, if it is one’s choice to be a wife and mother, fine. But to teach that such is the *only* way to express biblical womanhood, and that all good gifts that come from above, that don’t quite fit the mold, must be set aside, well, that’s just plain evil.
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For those that don’t know, we have been keeping a list of interesting articles, books, and links on the comp doctrine debate at the top of the page here, under the Interesting tab and then go to the Movies, Books, etc. tab.
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refugee wrote:
that was supposed to be “music performance”
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Cvd wrote:
This is actually a misinterpretation of the Genesis 3 consequence. The Hebrew does not say that the woman’s desire would be to rule over her husband. It says her desire would be for her husband.
I wonder, now, if “desire for her husband” means the relationship complementarianism teaches: where the woman looks to her husband for her identity, instead of looking to the Lord.
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I’m sure Tim Bayly taught you all that.
What if he has it wrong?
Donkeys and dolphins were created before Man… does that mean that we are rebelling against God’s creation order by not looking up to them and serving them and calling them Master?
(actually, I think Jesus is the only one we are supposed to call Master, come to think of it.)
I am sorry for you. I sat under this teaching as well, for twenty years, and saw its bitter fruit play out in more families than just my own. I think “one anothering” is a much more biblical approach.
God gave you gifts. He didn’t intend for you to bury your talents (the ones that don’t fit the stay-at-home wife paradigm); he even told a parable about that sort of thing. He didn’t intend for you to subordinate yourself to another human being. He is your Lord and Savior, He is the one you should be living for. Not a mere man, to whom you were given to be a partner.
The important thing to note is that God didn’t create Adam from an animal. Eve was taken from Adam. God then clearly tells us that we have rule over the animals (the things of the earth). And then He establishes the duty of man and woman.
Jesus IS my Lord and Savior. My ultimate Master, my ultimate Authority. I am living for Him. Jesus commands me to follow Him; that His word is life. Therefore I will follow His word. If my husband thinks we should do something sinful, I AM to say “NO,”because Jesus has authority in my life over my husband. I will follow Jesus first. I am to help my husband see that, that decision would be against God, our Heavenly Father. Never have I stated that I worship my husband or any of what you just claimed. I’ve only used scripture to back me up. Many of you have used articles (yes they can be helpful, but they aren’t ultimately true). The scripture that I’ve stated is clear. God tells us that God the father is head over Christ, just as man is to be head over his wife. What does that mean to you? Do you think Jesus being under God the Fathers authority suppressed Him?
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Cvd wrote:
I might be wrong, but I think that it’s considered a curse in the Old Testament. However, in the New Testament, it says, “In Christ there is neither male nor female…”
Fruitfulness in the New Testament is not bearing physical children, but the Great Commission.
I could not believe it when I heard Tim Bayly teach that (I am paraphrasing here, but if you think I get it wrong, I’ll go and look up how I wrote it word-for-word in my notes) the church has brown more from people having children, than evangelism.
Really?
Jesus didn’t say to go out into the world and have as many children as possible. He said to go out into the world and preach the gospel, even to the ends of the earth.
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Again with not separating. I’m sorry you guys.
To: @refugee
Pastor Tim is my pastor clearly. At our church we have women who are nurses, teachers, musicians etc..not sure why you have the idea that we are only mothers and wives.
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refugee wrote:
I am not typing well tonight. I meant to say “the church has grown more”
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Cvd wrote:
Tim Bayly is admittedly a little more lenient when it comes to women’s roles, than the church I left.
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This was the comment that didn’t separate:
The important thing to note is that God didn’t create Adam from an animal. Eve was taken from Adam. God then clearly tells us that we have rule over the animals (the things of the earth). And then He establishes the duty of man and woman.
Jesus IS my Lord and Savior. My ultimate Master, my ultimate Authority. I am living for Him. Jesus commands me to follow Him; that His word is life. Therefore I will follow His word. If my husband thinks we should do something sinful, I AM to say “NO,”because Jesus has authority in my life over my husband. I will follow Jesus first. I am to help my husband see that, that decision would be against God, our Heavenly Father. Never have I stated that I worship my husband or any of what you just claimed. I’ve only used scripture to back me up. Many of you have used articles (yes they can be helpful, but they aren’t ultimately true). The scripture that I’ve stated is clear. God tells us that God the father is head over Christ, just as man is to be head over his wife. What does that mean to you? Do you think Jesus being under God the Fathers authority suppressed Him?
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Cvd wrote:
So instead the hard-line complementarians belittle women. The church we left was trending more and more that way.
Tim Bayly taught there, and was something of a voice of reason compared to the elders there; but he still said some things that left me scratching my head when I compared them to the plain teaching of scripture.
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To: refugee
Knowing Tim, He was probably paralleling that having children is apart of the great commission because children are born sinners, so we need to evangelize to them. God could’ve already saved them in the womb, but it is our duty to tell little ones about Jesus, raising them to love God. You’re right, we are to go and tell others the Good News, but it doesn’t mean we have to go to Africa to do it. I’m guessing that’s what he meant, but I did not hear that sermon.
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Cvd wrote:
Another completely false statement.
You have no scriptural support for this.
In order to get this from the Genesis narrative you have to twist scripture awful hard and add a bunch that simply isn’t there.
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Cvd wrote:
Cvd, this does not answer the question. Where does God tell HUSBANDS to take authority OVER their WIVES? (Capitals for emphasis, not shouting.) Regardless of interpretation (authority vs mutual submission), Ephesians 5:22 is speaking to wives. Not husbands. Do you understand the difference? Nowhere does God command husbands to assume authority over wives.
Here’s another way to look at it: we’ve established that in Genesis both man and woman are given dominion over the earth, and there is no command for man to take dominion over woman, but rather they are to co-rule. If Ephesians 5 really is a command for husbandly authority, what did godly people do for the thousands of years in between Genesis and Ephesians? How did they know that husbands had authority? It’s not established in Genesis. Did they have to bumble around and wait for Paul to write Ephesians and clear that matter up?
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Cvd wrote:
Going back to this.
Here is a somewhat scholarly work by a complementarian female that backs me up that your interpretation (that I’m sure you were taught by Bayly) is indeed, false.
http://www.theologyforwomen.org/2012/04/somewhat-scholarly-analysis-of-genesis.html
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refugee wrote:
A stay-at-home mom (or dad) can be a wonderful gift to the family. I’m fairly certain that more marriages would do it if jobs paid well enough to support a family, as they did in the 50s-60s.
I’m sorry that you found the more liberal church so hard on you about that. That was foolishness.
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Cvd wrote:
Cvd, I’ll be honest, this makes me a little sad to read this. You see, leading and providing are not male responsibilities. They are adult responsibilities. To make our husbands carry those burdens alone is not fair and it is not loving.
In a healthy marriage, those responsibilities will not all fall on the husband’s shoulders. In a healthy marriage, over the years, they’ll be shared according to ability and interest, tho any particular responsibility on either spouse may wax and wane over the years depending on the circumstances. I think it’s great that you find joy in helping your husband in his work. Does your husband also find joy in helping you with your work?
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In talking about the law of God, He is very clear on what His laws are.
We have the Ten Commandments as a point of reference in the Old Testament.
Then Jesus came and improved on them, took them a step up with His Two Greatest Commandments and the Golden Rule.
Nowhere in all of this does Creation Order come into play.
Nowhere does God speak of Creation Order.
It is not one of His laws.
It is a description that a few men latched onto and turned into a prescription for life.
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Cvd wrote:
Even though much of secular feminism is wrong, they are correct on some points. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
And gender complementarians get a lot of things wrong.
I believe conservative Christian gender complementarianism is just as, if not more, dangerous and harmful to women than left wing secular feminism.
I was raised under the very things you are promoting here on this blog page about men and women and realized after I got older it is false.
Both man and woman were told to take dominion over the earth by God in Genesis, so no, they did not have different roles prior to the fall.
You might want to read this:
THE QUICK START GUIDE TO EQUALITY IN GENESIS
http://juniaproject.com/quick-start-guide-to-equality-genesis/
Women can in fact “do it all.” You are putting limits on yourself and asking other women to limit themselves. God does not do this.
Deborah was leader over the entire nation of Israel in the Old Testament. She led men into war. She was just as capable as any man.
Feminism does not want to “belittle men.” Even the secular feminists explain how these strict gender role teachings you are promoting harm men.
A Christian recently wrote a book explaining how gender comp harms men, not just women. This author was recently interviewed. I will see if I can find the link to her interview.
I can’t find that particular interview, but here is another one with the author:
On Biblical Manhood: A Q&A with Author Carolyn Custis James [author of Maelstorm]
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/takeandread/2015/06/on-biblical-manhood-a-qa-with-author-carolyn-custis-james/
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Cvd wrote:
(Post Script to my post above).
I did not turn away from Scripture.
Studying the Scriptures more closely is what caused me to reject the views you are advocating on this blog.
I was raised to believe as you do about men and women but realized as I got older that these views are false.
There are other conservative Christians who use the Bible to point out the errors in your views about gender, such as…
Christians For Biblical Equality</b
http://www.cbeinternational.org/
It is a straw man to argue that people who reject your views on gender have either been influenced by secular feminism (this is a common argument among gender comps), or have abandoned the Bible, or they don't take the Bible seriously.
There are Christians who are just as committed to the Bible as you are, but who have reached different conclusions about this issue.
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refugee wrote:
Yes, that is another gaping hole with gender comp / patriarchy teachings.
They almost always focus on married mothers.
Their gender theology says nothing to or for women who never marry, divorced women, infertile, the child free.
They will often pay lip service to singles and childless women, but actions speak louder than words, and most conservative Christians who are into gender comp or patriarchy never minister to single, childless women, don’t honor such women (but they will honor motherhood constantly, especially on Mother’s Day holiday).
You will rarely to never hear a sermon extolling the greatness of single, childless women, or sermons addressing single/child-free life problems, etc.
All sermons revolve around marriage and motherhood, marriage and motherhood, marriage and motherhood.
When complementarians can’t peg you with the marriage- and- kids angle (because you are single and child free or infertile), they will try to cram you into such a box anyway, by suggesting you take on a maternal, or “support” role, for men you’re not even married to.
I have no interest in being a “side kick” to the supposed “main character.” I don’t want to play Robin to Bat Man. I’m not interested in being Robin. I want to be Bat Man. But gender comps keep telling me I can only play Robin. No thank you.
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@ Cvd:
Cvd, your views confirm they are parroting what you’ve heard from complementarian teachers.
Just out of curiosity, how have they taught the authority wives have over their husbands according to 1 Cor. 7:4?
Please read Eph. 5 with your own critical thinking. The passage does NOT refer to Christ’s authority over the church. It speaks to His laying down His very life for the church. That’s the example husbands are to emulate for their wives…by laying down their very lives in self sacrifice.
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@ Patrice:
CVD’s description of feminism not even an accurate representation of garden variety secular feminism I’ve seen among Average Joes and Janes online, and I do sometimes visit their sites to see what they are talking about.
There are some who, yes, seem to dislike all men (I have read some truly nutty comments by some of them in years past), but a lot of the ones I’ve seen on secular sites (and some secular feminists are men, not all of them are women!), discuss how harmful gender roles and traditional gender views are to men, not just to women. I think they are correct about that.
Gender complementarianism and patriarchy only benefits a very small number of people – alpha males.
I was recently listening to an interview with Carolyn Custis James (author of Maelstorm), who mentions that gender complementarianism/ patriarchy creates an inverted pyramid scheme, where only a tiny number of men make it to the top.
All other men (and all women) are at the bottom, lower rings of the pyramid.
And at the top, there is constant battle, because the alpha males are all fighting one another to stay in the top, or to get to the top.
On Biblical Manhood: A Q&A with Author Carolyn Custis James
Source:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/takeandread/2015/06/on-biblical-manhood-a-qa-with-author-carolyn-custis-james/
Snippet from that page:
Has the Evangelical church embraced a fallen notion of manhood?
To answer that question, I point to the fact that there is a chapter missing in the Bible—the chapter that would show us what unfallen manhood is supposed to be.
The Bible opens with a spectacular display of God in creative action and issuing the exalted mandate for human beings—male and female—to reflect him and to do his work in the world together.
But before we witness a single moment of unfallen image bearer living, the Enemy invades and God’s image bearers rebel.
They are cut off from their Creator and divided from one another. We are left in the ruins of a fallen world to figure out what God had in mind for us. If our reference points are broken, our conclusions will be broken too.
So to answer this question, yes, I believe we have embraced fallen notions of manhood. The Creation narrative doesn’t contain the slightest hint of one image bearer ruling over any other image bearers.
———-
Another pertinent snippet, quote by James:
Here’s the crucial point: Patriarchy is not the Bible’s message. Patriarchy is the backdrop to the Bible’s message.
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refugee wrote:
Yeah, I don’t agree with that type of view on gender roles, either. That is the flip side to Christian gender comp.
I’ve noticed on occasions on this blog, if or when I speak out against the Christian gender complementarian position, which usually insists that a woman’s only purpose or godly role in life is to marry and have children, some women (who are married mothers) misunderstand me and chide me in the comments.
I just don’t like having to add a disclaimer to every post I make about it. I really don’t have a problem at all with women who choose of their own accord to be ‘Susie Homemaker.’
My problem is when Christian culture berates, pressures, and shames women who choose to not go that route, or who cannot go that route, because they are infertile, they just don’t want children, or, like me, they have been unable to find Mr. Right.
I have been on secular feminist blogs before where a handful of them to hold similar views, where they say they feel motherhood is a waste of time, college education is wasted on women who want to be SAHMs, women should skip parenting and go get careers, etc.
In those discussions, I’ve stood up for women who are mothers (or who want to be mothers), and I’ve gotten ripped to shreds by the feminists who disagree on that.
Also, secular feminists who maintain that it’s a waste for a woman to get a college degree if she is going to be a SAHM is the same exact line I’ve seen used by some Christian gender comps and patriarchalists.
I find it strange that secular feminists would be repeating the same sexist clap trap that their opponents use as a rationale to keep women from getting higher education.
Anyway, but I do believe women should be just as free to be SAHMs, if it is their free choice.
That’s why I sometimes get frustrated – or amused – when some of the women here mistake my views and think I’m opposed to women wanting to be SAHMs.
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refugee wrote:
My mother was very much into this.
As I got older, and certainly by now, I see that a lot of Christians (who are into patriarchy and gender comp) conflate a lot of secular, cultural assumptions about men and women with biblical teaching, which is why they keep confusing the two.
Which is why you see them reading things into the biblical text that just isn’t there, like this stubborn insistence that Genesis teaches God ordained male hierarchy into the creation (when in fact, God did not).
Secular, cultural standards about women get assumed to be “biblical” or “God’s design.”
A lot of the ladylike things my mother made me do were based on her childhood upbringing and cultural values (she was southern).
But, to a point, my mother honestly felt that God wanted me (and herself) to do and be “X, Y, or Z,” but often times, “X, Y, and Z” were not biblical but were nothing more than southern American understandings of “Lady like” qualities.
I think this is a huge, huge problem with Christian gender complementarianism, especially in the United States. Patriarchalists and gender comps take cultural views about women and assume the Bible agrees with these cultural views, then they insist that everyone live by this, or it’s the only “biblical” way to be, etc.
Look at the pat guys, like Phillips and Douglas Wilson and whomever – they even keep pointing back to American culture (such as the old south of the 1800s, or the Titanic story) to prove their points, or they get all nostalgic over it. They assume that God wants all Americans to be just like white southern Americans in 1855.
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I do not have time to respond to each individual comment, I’m sorry. Just as some of you have asked me to read certain articles, I ask you read this one: it addresses almost every argument.
https://answersingenesis.org/family/marriage/genesis-wifely-submission-and-modern-wives/
It’s not long at all, but it explains exactly what I’m trying to convey to you guys, and it includes lots of scripture that support. I hope and pray that you see most of your defenses have no scripture to back them. Some have tried to use a couple verses, but they’re false arguments. I’ve only used scripture, and y’all have tried to refute it the whole time, pegging me that there’s only a few verses about the topic. Is homosexuality right because there’s only 7 verses about it? No. Yet, how many verses are there that say, “husbands and wives are to be co-dependent?” If we truly believe that scripture is eternally true as it is, then we should always have scripture back any stance we have.
Many have said they are sorry for me. Look, my gifts aren’t being trampled, I’m not inferior to my husband, nor does he boss me around like a dog. We both mutually respect each others different duties. We love what God has ordained, and we watch after one another. I have my own relationship with Jesus; on the day of judgement I carry MY sin to God, and profess my faith in the One who’s cleansed me. Submissiveness does not mean I cower in a corner, nor am I weak. I am submissive because God has commanded me to be (also, someone mentioned that there’s no place where God is speaking directly to husbands; when God tells wives to be submissive to their husbands, and He tells husbands to love their wives and live in an understanding way, this means the man is the leader. If he doesn’t have to submit to us, and we do, that means he has leadership over us). Some verses don’t have to be complicated: God says to submit, so we are to submit. It’s simple. When God says do not murder, we are not to murder. He makes His commands clear.
I was trying to think of analogy that might be helpful last night, and this is what God put on my heart:
Look at all the different areas of life. Almost all have an appointed leader. On a team: there’s a captain. If you’re a teacher: there’s a department chair. There are shift leaders for jobs, and section leaders for musicians. There’s almost always a leader. Am I inferior to the captain on my team? No, instead they’ve been given the role to guide the team. They’re not perfect, the other players are supposed to help him be a captain, and if we (the players) think he’s doing something against the coaches demand, then we are to follow the coach. Women are the players, men are the captains, Jesus is our coach. Think about a huddle; the coach (Jesus) gathers us all together to tell us what we are to do, then when we disperse the captain is supposed to guide us to follow those orders, but if he doesn’t, we already know what the coach said, and we are to follow him over the captain.
I have no more to say. Please, please read that article. In the end, we can all agree that The Lord Jesus Christ is our savior and redeemer, no one comes to the father except through Him. Have a great day.
In Christ,
Corrie
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refugee wrote:
Yep, this is it.
As I said above, this is exactly what God was warning women of, and it’s codependency, when a person looks to another person for protection, meaning, identity, fulfillment – rather than look to God.
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One last note that I forgot to address. Many have said they’ve left the type of church I’m apart of to join a church with the teachings you now believe. A lot have said you left because of the brokenness you saw it created in relationships. My experience has been the exact opposite. I came from a mega church, and saw much much brokenness with these teachings you hold to. Which is why I left. I needed answers. Why did God create men AND women, instead of just man, if we’re all supposed to be the same? It was so fuzzy in the church I came from. They used almost no scripture to back, but based their convictions a lot on feeling. Just something to think about.
In Christ,
Corrie
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My hope rests in my Father not my husband. My strength, peace, help, everything is from God. However he does use our husbands for these things. Ex: God may use my husband to block a bull-it from hitting me. God used my husband to protect me, thus in a sense my husband is my protector, but God is my ultimate protector who’s in complete control. I pray to God for protection, not my husband. Just because I submit to my husband, doesn’t mean he replaces God. My identity and worth are found in Christ alone.
I’m sorry I did not mean to say co-dependent in my long comment. I meant to say, “how many verses are there that say men and women are to be equal in duty?”
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@Cvd,
I went from a mega church, that seemed so hip and anonymous, to a much smaller church that *seemed* more Biblically solid. Like Gram3 has posted here many times, that people frequently look for the opposite of their former church when choosing a new church and miss serious problems in the new church. I did.
My smaller church had many problems that I had not seen when choosing a new church home: elder-ruled (no congregational vote/no respect for the priesthood of all believers), Membership Covenants (used by the pastors/elders to foist themselves into members’ lives for the smallest of issues and to punish any dissent; as well as take the place of the Holy Spirit), authoritarianism, and comp doctrine. Many older Christians that I know said that it *never* used to be this way and these are fairly new teachings.
As Gram3 has pointed out in many posts the comp doctrine involves much Scripture twisting, that the words in the interlinear don’t say what the comp believers tout. (My conservative Christian friends in Europe, elders in their churches for decades, have said that something is seriously wrong with American Christianity and that it has more in common with radical Islam than with our freedom in Christ.)
I also have a problem with it: The nation’s proponents of this (Gothard, Phillips and others have been felled by sex scandals for their predation on young females). They have made their secondary issue, and personal political/social/cultural, beliefs into The Gospel, which it isn’t. Why are we taking marching orders from sexual predators about how to lead a good, Christian life? I don’t look to criminal types for guidance in how to lead my life.
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@Velour- I’m aware that I need to be analyzing my church. I never said it was perfect, but it holds good, sound doctrine, teaching and leadership.
Have I not said MANY times that if a man is in unrepentant sin, than we shouldn’t follow his lead, but rather Christs truth? If my husband were a sexual predator, I would not follow his lead.
About your friends in Europe. We too know pastors in Europe and they would claim the exact opposite of your friends. Using scripture against me is the only way to convince me, because scripture is truth, not your friends opinions.
Velour wrote:
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Cvd wrote:
This is not true Corrie. It is your interpretation of the scripture that I don’t agree with. It is also a very poor study habit to take bits of scripture from all over the Bible to make an argument fit your preference. I could do that and make an argument that we are all in sin because we use the internet. The internet isn’t in the bible after all.
I have no problem with you choosing to submit to your husband in your marriage relationship. But I don’t believe you or your church have “the only, the best, or the holiest” way for husbands and wives to function in marriage. To think you do would be a great disservice to the body of Christ. (Not accusing you of this btw.)
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@ Cvd:
You said,
“We both mutually respect each others different duties.”
Then you have a functionally egalitarian marriage; it’s complementarian in name only.
My gifts have been trampled on due to gender comp teachings and practices.
Churches that practice gender comp have no place for a single (never married), childless woman.
All their ministry areas and roles for women to serve in revolve around kids, babies, and cooking, none of which I am interested in or have the talent for.
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Cvd wrote:
Where in Genesis before they “fell” is this explicit? And how do you explain the plural in Genesis 1?
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Cvd wrote:
Gender complementarianism is itself codependency with a biblical veneer.
As such, gender complementarianism and patriarchy are not biblical but actually run contrary to biblical concepts.
Some flavors of Gender Comp teach, among other things, that men are ultimately responsible for a woman, for her sins and for her short comings, but the Bible holds each person accountable before God for his or her own sins.
Women, the Bible teaches, answer to God; men do not answer to God for mistakes or sins of women. (But some gender comps teach that men will answer to God in the afterlife for the sins of their wives.)
The NT further teaches there is only ONE intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus.
The Bible says JESUS is a woman’s head and authority – NOT a husband or any other man.
Call no man Father, Jesus said – but comps would have wives (and even single women) regard male pastors or spouses as being “Fathers”.
Gender comps also flatly contradict the Bible in insisting on male authority, because they completely trample this teaching by Jesus:
The overall thrust of Scripture is a message of equality between the genders, such as Gal 3.28, there is neither male nor female in Christ.
The creation story says both male and female are created in God’s image and are to take dominion over the earth together and says nothing about men being in authority over women, or that God sanctioned a male hierarchy.
Ephesians 5.21 says all believers are to submit to all believers, not a one-way submission where women submit to men.
Deborah in the Old Testament was a judge and ruler over all Israel and led the nation into war and won.
Jael played the role of a warrior and slew an enemy of Israel.
Junia in the NT was a woman apostle.
Jesus treated women as intellectual equals, debated them, spent time with them, which ran contrary to the gender comp and patriarchal teachings of his culture and religion of the day.
There are further examples in the Bible of women teaching and leading men and taking leadership roles, but gender comps either ignore these roles or attempt to water them down by saying they are exceptions.
The overall teaching of the Bible is that God views all persons as equals.
Also, the Bible shows us that sexism is a sin.
Sexism is a result of the fall, but gender comps are trying to uphold this sin by saying it’s a virtue and should be propagated by Christians.
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@Cvd,
I respect your and your husband’s wishes concerning your marriage and how you would like to run it, including your choice to have a comp marriage. That said, it isn’t the *only* way to have a good marriage, the ideas promulgated are fairly new, aren’t taught in other denominations. Even many conservative Christians say that all of this comp doctrine/teaching is fairly new and *it wasn’t this way before*.
Sadly a conservative American socio/political/cultural belief is being put on par with The Gospel by many conservative churches, driving Christians out of the church, harming marriages and families, and being totally unattractive to unbelievers and our witness to them. Why should they trade their freedom for bondage in the comp System?
The Gospel is supposed to be Good News no matter the country, culture, or period.
(Note: Gram3 has covered this topic extensively. Please look up her earlier posts explaining The Scriptures and various meanings.)
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I know Corrie said that she’s done talking about this and I respect her for it and bid her adieu.
But I wanted to comment on one more thing.
Sometimes people who push patriarchy and compism decide that women who strongly resist are ‘angry’. Some women are angry. Some are just being assertive.
Anyway, often these Pushers of Patriarchy etc. decide that these women are angry at God for making things the way they are (roles and hierarchy) and that these women are in rebellion to God’s word. And the Pushers dismiss the women and their anger using their anger as a witness against the women.
Well, here’s the thing. I totally admit that I’m angry. But it’s not because I’m rebelling against God. It’s because I’m tired of seeing these Pushers use God’s name in vain in order to push their doctrine. I’m tired of seeing them threaten women, telling them they are in danger of hell-fire, or at the very least, displeasing to God for not accepting oppressive, screwed up, man-made, and man-serving doctrine.
And not being allowed to be angry is another form of abuse and further stripping away of the humanity of women. It forces women further down into a plastic and shallow mold.
God never called women to suffer in silence when they are being hurt, whether by people or doctrine.
http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2011/02/keep-sweet-conspiracy.html
P.S. Has anyone gone to the link Corrie shared yet?
I think I’d like to eventually when I have a little more time.
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@ Mara:
I went there and read a small bit. It is the usual arguments and I can’t tolerate much from Answers in Genesis.
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Bridget wrote:
I have posted some better stuff at the top of the page here under the Interesting tab, Movies/Books, etc. tab that people have recommended. There are books, links, and articles.
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Bridget and Mara,
Here is one post about comp doctrine that I put under the Interesting tab [top of page here], Books, Movies, etc. tab
Recommended article by Baptist pastor Wade Burleson, The Wartburg Watch’s EPastor on Sundays, on the whole comp doctrine/patriarchy and the Eternal Subordination of the Son:
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/06/eternal-subordination-and-sbc-divorce.html
“Here’s the catch. Southern Baptist leaders have made the tragic error of believing that a husband should rule and a wife should be submissive because the Bible demands it. Truth be known, the Bible calls any desire to control and dominate–be it the husband or the wife– “the curse.” The divorce rate increases when Southern Baptists call “the norm” what the Bible calls “the curse.” When the first man (Adam) sought to rule over the first woman (Eve), Adam was manifesting a curse, not meeting a commandment (Genesis 3:16).
Jesus came to reverse the curse. Redemption causes curse-filled people to become grace-filled people. Those who seek to rule over others by exerting authority, when they come to see what Jesus says about life, will turn loose of trying to control other people and will only seek to love and serve, NEVER exerting any alleged authority. Again, Jesus said that “the Gentiles lord over others” and “exert authority,” but “it shall not be this way among you” (Matthew 20:24-26).
Southern Baptist Convention leaders have wrongly pushed for men to lord their authority over their wives, and called on wives to submit to the authority of their husbands because of a belief in and promotion of “the eternal subordination of the Son.” I’ve written about this doctrinal problem among Southern Baptists for years, but I recently came across a brilliant article by Dr. Keith Johnson (Ph.D. Duke), the director of theological development for Campus Crusade for Christ. Johnson’s article is called Trinitarian Agency and the Eternal Subordination of the Son: An Augustinian Perspective.”
Dr. Keith Johnson’s article:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/tgc-documents/journal-issues/36.1/Themelios36.1.pdf#page=9
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Cvd wrote:
We should pray for pastors *and* we should hold them to account when they prove themselves disqualified. It isn’t either/or. We don’t need strong leaders in the mold of the Baylys or Wilson. We need faithful men who are trustworthy and humble servants rather than lords. Orthodox Christians believe that Christ will raise all of us, including Doug Wilson and the Baylys. Then he will sort the wheat from the tares. In the meantime, we judge the fruit of ministries, and the fruit of the Patriarchs is rotten because the doctrine is based in sin and not in God’s design. In my personal experience, the only ones who are pompous and puffed up with superiority are the Baylys and Wilson and the rest of the Patriarchs and self-anointed and mutually admiring Authoritarians. God is not impressed by “officers” of the church and does not grant them immunity from scrutiny.
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Cvd wrote:
There is nothing in the Bible which gives any indication that God attaches any significance whatsoever to the “Order of Creation.” If he did, then I assume that he would not have broken his own rules of Order which he established so many times. There is nothing in Genesis 2 which either negates or modifies the *explicit* equality and *joint* dominion of the Man and the Woman. There is simply nothing about gendered Roles in Genesis 2 or anywhere else in the actual text of the Bible. RBMW is eisegesis wrapped in a circular argument.
If you are able to state the basic argument of the CBMW crew without using any logical fallacies and without employing any eisegesis, I would be very interested to see that. I’ve not had any luck with that request so far.
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Cvd wrote:
I, for one, do not ever want to twist the actual texts say. That is why I attempt to use a *consistent* conservative hermeneutic. You are merely making an ad hominem accusation and attributing motives which you have no way of knowing. This is basically the argument made by Danvers. It is illogical and basically propaganda. There is a reason that the “rationale” is offered before the “exegetical” points. It is necessary to first gin up outrage at the wreckage supposedly caused by women gaining equal legal rights. However, there is never any connection demonstrated between the social breakdown and “feminism.” It is a bare assertion and an appeal to outrage.
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Cvd wrote:
If we are conservative Christians (and I would assume that you are) then we certainly should not be guided by mere feelings. Our convictions must be grounded in the texts which we who are conservative evangelicals believe are inspired and authoritatative. Further, we believe that each person who is in Christ is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and is a priest of the New Covenant. It is not rational to join with one group because it is the opposite of another group that is wrong. They might well both be wrong, and it appears that is the case with your experience, IMO. If you truly desire to be led by the Holy Spirit, then you will not place either your husband or your “church officer” in a place above God the Holy Spirit. To deny the freedom and responsibility which Christ died to secure for you by surrendering it to another human being is a serious matter. Each of us, whether male or female, is called to grow up into Christ who is our Head.
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Cvd wrote:
Our former church used to have women who were nurses, teachers, musicians, etc. As they gradually left the church, the focus became more narrowly defined, until only “working at home” was spoken of with approval. That is, women could work for their husband’s business (i.e. bookkeeper) or have an Etsy business or maybe do in-home childcare, but working in some other capacity outside the home? Not really accepted in the culture. Made one an odd duck amongst the others, which was not seen as a good thing.
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Mara wrote:
Christian Complementarians and Patriarchalists put women in a bind, in a no-win situation on this stuff.
If you are a woman, if you try to critique their patriarchy or comp views, they automatically play the, “You are trying to usurp male authority” shtick (or some other talking point, such as, “You have been influenced by secular feminism”).
That tactic is used to shut down and dismiss female objections and input of these gender doctrines.
What it is also doing is penalizing women who have healthy boundaries, women who no longer buy into the mandate that God desires women to be codependent, shrinking flowers.
Part of having healthy boundaries is being assertive and speaking one’s mind, and disagreeing openly with someone else, if one disagrees.
In complementarianism (or patriarchy), however, a woman exercising biblical, healthy, perfectly fine and normal boundaries, which may entail expressing objections of a position, is deemed a usurper of authority, or of having been duped by secular feminism (or the woman is supposedly “easily deceived” or is “bitter”) by those holding the complementarian views being criticized.
This way, the ones who adhere to complementarianism or patriarchy don’t have to seriously contend with the voices of the people who are being limited by these teachings.
It makes it so easy for them. Discount people’s arguments before they can even make a point. It’s rather convenient for them to operate in such a fashion.
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Daisy wrote:
Or, “You are undermining the masculinity of the male”