“Pain insists upon being attended to. God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our consciences, but shouts in our pains. It is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world.” ― C.S. Lewis link
St Basil's Cathedral-Peter Milosevic.-Commons
This is going to be a short blog post today. A new website has launched that documents, and will continue to document, Steven Sitler's history of pedophilia. I learned of this today on Twitter and it is creating quite a stir. From what I can tell, the intent of the website is to bring to light credible documentation on the life and criminal history of Sitler and those who have interacted with him throughout the years. It is a startling website and I believe that this is just the first step in revealing a number of issues in Moscow, Idaho. Why?
The website dedicated to Sitler is titled Steven Sitler and subtitled "Shepherds of God's Flock Have a Moral Responsibility." However, as I was clicking around, I learned that Sitler's website is contained within a larger website called The Truth About Moscow. This is subtitled "The Penalty for Rape is Death for the Rapist."
The reader will note that there is a link to the Steven Sitler website on the header. I think this means that there is probably more coming about the "goings on" in Moscow, Idaho. I believe the subtitle "The Penalty for Rape is Death for the Rapist."gives us a potential clue. I believe that things are about to get interesting in the coming weeks.
I have made the requisite calls to determine the author of this website but to no avail. No one seems to know who is behind it. As some of you may know, TWW started out as an anonymous website since our husbands were convinced that our abodes would be the subject of drive by shootings from Mafioso type black cars driven by men with names like Vinny the Gospel™ Enforcer. Thankfully, our opposition was reduced to simple name-calling like "Daughters of Stan (sic)" and "Minions of Satin(sic)" which have provided untold hours of hysterical laughing, both on and off the blog.
As an aside, did you know that one of our readers has had their company bought out by Stantec? Is this the beginning of the end times? Stay tuned….
Back to being serious, I believe that anonymity is justifiable in many circumstances in order to get information out without any undo negative influence or payback by power-brokers in the Gospel™ Industrial Complex.
Here is an overview of the website.
This is in the process of being complete.
Pictorial synopsis of Sitler's life
On the home page, next to Steven's picture click on the arrow to the right to see a pictorial tour of Sitler's life. There is information along with these pictures which , if thought about, will be a bit startling.
Back at the home page, click on court documents. There you can enlarge the documents and find out interesting information such as The Department of Idaho Corrections opposed the marriage of Steven Sitler.
This page has a plethora of news reports about Sitler and his activities.
This appears to be entires that Sitler made into a site in which he documents meeting his current wife, Katie. Be prepared to get weirded out.
This wonderfully organized page gives subjects, dates and links to pertinent information on the website. Note: The archives appear under the Tag header.
This is just beginning. However, if you click on the red date, it will take you to a comment box. Perhaps a few of you might leave a comment congratulating her/him on a job well done. This page should get very interesting in the future since it appears to be set up to function under the Moscow website.
Here is the handle to sign up. @MoscowIdahoUSA
TWW gives a tip of the hat to the designer and editor of this website. Well done!!!! To our readers, enjoy the day and the following song: Midnight in Moscow. Different Moscow, but it seems like it has some application to the situation in Idaho.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
May the truth come to light.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Tell me the Jamin Wight case and DW’s involvement there (sitting with the accused when the victim was also in the courtroom, trying to get the victim to repent of her “sin”) will be next.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Patty in Massachusetts:
Darn straight. Did you know I grew up in Salem and my brother lives in Revere and Milton NH. M-i-L live-in Chatham. B-I-L lives in Dover, Chatham and Sanibel.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I’m looking forward to seeing a figurative stake pounded into Douglas Wilson’s gas-lighting.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Looks like this website has been going for at least 10 years, Dee. The earliest electronic timestamped entry in the Court Documents section goes back to March 11, 2005. Providential timing on it gaining notice, though …
http://sitler.moscowid.net/2005/03/11/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Thank God for the Internet and the tireless work of the Deebs and other watch bloggers! It makes it much harder for people like Sitler and Wilson to hide their evil deeds from the world.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I’d like to point everyone to this document. I was concerned that the locals in Moscow, ID/Pullman, WA were being kept in the dark. It’s an editorial from the local paper.
http://sitler.moscowid.net/2015/09/05/moscow-pullman-daily-news-our-view-evidence-shows-sitler-is-a-clear-danger-to-his-own-child/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“Thankfully, our opposition was reduced to simple name-calling like ‘Daughters of Stan (sic)’ and ‘Minions of Satin(sic)’ . . .”
And still no, “Philistine!” Tragic neglect of awesome slurs.
As to Doug Wilson and his response you posted: The mantra seems to be: “Protect the Empire, not the Victims.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
William wrote:
No worries. We have been called Philistines. We keep a list of “What the World is saying about TWW. Here are h=just a few.
Wartburg witches
Obscure
Wenches
O glorious wenches
Minions of Satan
Hatemongers
x#&**#xx!@
Narcissistic zeroes
Morons
Warthogs
Quite a gossip column
How did we ever get along without you?
Assyrians
Philistines
Full of ****
Bored housewives
Yellow journalism
Discernment Divas
Feminist Heretic
Discernamentalist Diva Mafia
Poor reading comprehension
In Need of ESL
Anti-Christian bigot
E Pharisee
Discernment blogger
Dastardly Dee
minions of Satin (sic)
in league with Stan (sic)
And now, the brand new name unveiling. From Doug Wilson himself.
Pedophile Hustler
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
Hahaha … Warthogs … probably my favorite. I pronounce a special crown in heaven for each of you in heaven for every slur granted. Bring ’em on!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
All, take a look at this web page…. We’re there is smoke…..
http://dougsplotch.net/dougspeak.htm
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I am struck by the whole courtship story between Katie and Steve Sitler. They got engaged on their SECOND date. Did anyone in Katie’s life encourage her to get educated about pedophilia? Did anyone tell her that abusers can be incredibly charming and that Steve’s whole “love at first sight” account of his feelings for her is suspect? Did anybody encourage her to take her time, consider that Steve might be highly manipulative, and her own wistful yearning to be married might make her really vulnerable?
Did any of the “authorities” in her life encourage her to think about what life would be like without kids, or what life would be like being her husband’s “monitor” at all times? About how no matter what her theology that she should be lead by her husband, he could *never* be her head in this and she would need to always be on watch, not just for her kids if they had children but for all the other kids in their community and family?
These two met in August of 2010. They got engaged at Christmas and were married in June 2011. How was this enough time for Katie to really think over the responsibility she was embracing? Even on Doug Wilson’s own theological terms, his church has failed Katie. And her child.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The site also has the wedding video!!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Didn’t mean to repeat “in heaven,” lol, but let that witness to your detractors.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
I like “discernment Divas”…. That is actually a compliment…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
You can add “venereal disease” to the list. Also, this Chandler fan/apologist calls us “minions.” https://twitter.com/lex_lutheran/status/640604236531666945
https://twitter.com/lex_lutheran/status/640618155509809156
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ XianJaneway:
Yep. and some dingbat prayer for the blessings of children during the opening prayer. Guess he doesn’t understand how a pedophile understands thee word “blessings.” What in the world are they teaching at that church.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Oh this site is a great idea! I hope many more just like it will spring up showing the truth about various individuals.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Doug Wilson just called us *poo fighters* on twitter. I am taking screen shots. Proving that I, a low level intelligence in his firmament of brilliance looked up *poo* in a Thesaurus and fond my newest, absolutely favorite insult in the whole wide world
Meadow Muffin!!!!!!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Beakerj wrote:
I have an idea or two as to who might be next.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Oh & P.S> Cautiously optimistic about my little Darcey dog whose colour is better. Results of more blood tests on Weds. Pray for new red cells, & for me to just get better at dealing with the health uncertainties of having older animals.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
After reading through JuneEleven.com, I have no hope the mother is able to discern reality. ( nor extended family )
Cult. Cult. Cult.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Beakerj:
Prayers for Darcey.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
Yes, and I don’t demand anything but coffee and chocolate to keep blogging.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Beakerj:
I am so sorry. My pugs have had a number of health issues and I get almost as scared for them as I did when my kids were sick.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Mae:
You know what bugged me, Katie was nervous when meeting Steven’s mother. Little does she realize that she was their supposed ticket out of trouble. I believe that she was used.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Amy Smith:
I love the word minions.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
I love that movie!!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
Gee, I’m glad I’m not on twitter. I could make an incredible parody account, but I’d get myself in trouble. Oh well.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Amy Smith wrote:
We are huge minion fans at our house.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFTbqrS2vCI
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
Yes she was. The mother I law, came off (even to Katie) as going after what she wanted, and determined at that.
I checked out the MIL’s ETSY page too. Wouldn’t hurt if people knew Not to buy jewelry from this women.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
I now have an ear worm that is singing “kung poo fighting.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
XianJaneway wrote:
I started watching it, but fast forwarded to Wilson’s prayer after the ceremony. I didn’t hear him pray for the union to produce children, but it may have been somewhere else in the ceremony. I skipped over a lot. Just couldn’t stomach it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
https://twitter.com/GovPappy/status/640909649538084864
Eh, just stirring the pot a little.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
“Poo Fighters”
This is typical, given his view (and the view of many, many Calvinistas) that satiric polemics is justifiable conversation and debate tactic: see “A Serrated Edge: A Brief Defense of Biblical Satire and Trinitarian Skylarking,” tragically sold on Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591280109/ref=s9_psimh_gw_p14_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=desktop-1&pf_rd_r=01WPY1NWJCBVEFAJH2D8&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=2079475242&pf_rd_i=desktop
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
Bless his heart. He just can’t handle those inconvenient truths.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
I don’t have the stomach to watch, but I’ve been told it’s the opening prayer.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
This is a great resource!
Take a look also at the Special Progress Report from Sitler’s parole officer. It explains the polygraph results and how Sitler hit ordered out of the home, at least temporarily. Note that this is not, as Wilson claims, simply the prosecutor’s version of the story. http://sitler.moscowid.net/2015/08/24/department-of-correction-special-progress-report/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ GovPappy:
I really liked your replies to Dougalicious. It looks as though he didn’t reply back to those tweets of yours.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Xianatty:
Also, who is the Dr Wilson here?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Daisy:
He probably won’t. He doesn’t have to. He is Douglas Effing Wilson, of Christ Kirk. I’m simply a Meadow Muffin.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Sarah Roorda wrote:
Darn it. You made me watch it again. 🙂 You’re right. Wilson asks a pastor Tucker to give the invocation. He starts around the 7:48 mark. At the 8:30 mark, Tucker prays, “Bestow upon these servants, if it be thy will, the gift and heritage of children.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
You have one more name that I say with compassion. I call you My East Coast Mom!!!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Wilson has a new missive up:
dougwils DOT com/s7-engaging-the-culture/the-high-mountain-air-of-public-calumny.html
from which I grabbed the following screenshot:
http://i.imgur.com/zdkwY5Q.png
Wilson plumbs new depths in Christian discourse, applying his cutesy hair-splitting to the definition of child rape. There’s apparently no subject that warrants setting aside his smugness. Somehow I don’t think those purple paradoxes he prides himself on will get him out of this one.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I also noted two things from the wedding video a propos of …nothing too important.
1. There aren’t that many guests – the church isn’t even half full.
2. What’s with the hymns? Entire congregation singing in four part harmony which they clearly have learned by heart (and are they even using words or do they know them by heart too). Is this corporate worship CC-style?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
and finally
3. Douglas Wilson, to my surprise, is not a good orator. He read out the sermon homily a bit like (as we would say in this neck of the woods) a primary school child.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
So that would be 3 things
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I just love coming to this site to find out with the latest witch hunt of the week is. It surprises me no end how many times site comes back again to old news. don’t get me wrong, I appreciate their being a site for those who have been injured by so called Christians in leadership to commiserate with each other. That’s not what I’m railing against. The problem seems to be that as soon as new evidence comes to the surface about pedophiles in the church or any wrongdoing in any church that the website has covered in the past, that that information is posted in a new round of witch burnings commences. It’s like beating a dead horse with a stick. are we now going to dig up the bones of the person we just annihilated with our comments and make more comments about them and as though we could condemn them any more than they’ve condemned themselves before God?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
At this point, the average bystander discerns that Doug would have no need to resort to derogatory epithets if he were not complicit in the matter
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Joan:
I want to throw up. All over DW’s face.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
May wrote:
While less common nowadays, I find classic hymns sung in multi-part harmony to really add to the act of worship (of which singing is just one expression). This would not be out of place in some old Baptist churches. Now, if it looked like the congregation of Doug’s church had rehearsed beforehand – that would be weird.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Chemie wrote:
Well, actually, when it comes to Doug Wilson, it is a bit difficult to make this assumption. Doug Wilson uses derogatory epithets so often it would be hard to tell for sure if, in this instance, it makes him complicit. Epithets aside, he had no problem supporting a convicted pedophile getting married to a girl in his congregation.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
When I lived in Pullman and Moscow, we’d sometimes have conversations about the multiple evangelical “leaders” who seemed they vying to become the “Pope of the Palouse.” [The farming region around those towns is often called “the Palouse,” pronounced approximately puh-LEWSS.]
Seems like Mr Wilson is now the “Pope of Letting Poo Loose.”
Maybe it all has to do with not getting enough of a power-o-phile fix … one ends up going all scatalogical in one’s utterances, eh?
What a revelation.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
So… a firefighter is someone who fights fires.
Whom, or what, does a poofighter fight? Just asking.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Perhaps it’s self-incriminating . . . they’re fighting the Poo of Doug Wilson.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
brad/futuristguy wrote:
It looks to me like the website has been going since January 2014. I looked up the domain registration for moscowid.net. I think the website owner just used the dates for when actual documents were created or published. It’s not that hard to do.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
I also wondered if it had been in “private” mode until ready for launch, but it seems a well-planned site to have prepared it with timelines and timestamps that way.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Amy Smith:
I miss going to movies aimed at kids. I always took my kids to them. I think my all time favorite was Shrek.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
May wrote:
Churches affiliated with Federal Vision have Psalm sings where they sing like this out of a metrical Psalter. I think that certain hymns in the Trinity hymnal are also considered kosher, IIRC. Actually, this is one of the things I like, but I like old-fashioned hymn singing, and especially singing the scripture.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Elizabeth Lee:
@ brad/futuristguy:
I think it may have been around. However, yesterday and today was the big launch from rumors on Twitter.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Thank you for the laugh. I now have a goal of a West Coast trip. Making it up to JA’s and driving down to Moscow to catch a *kirk* service when Meadow Muffin is in residence. Ann come?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Bridget:
I would like folks to ask him directly whether he supported the marriage or tried to talk Katie out of it. When I wrote the 2012 post, it appeared to me that he was quite supportive of it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
If it’s of any comfort to you, Dee, I’ve been called worse names than that where I work.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Chemie wrote:
Wouldn’t the epithet “pedophile hustler” be more appropriately applied to Wilson himself, since he and his lieutenant rushed this young woman into marriage with a convicted pedophile? I honestly cannot see how that applies to the Deebs or Julie Anne or Amy.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
You are one brave woman for wanting to attend that church.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Chemie wrote:
I would have to agree with you. If I were him, here is how I would respond if it were true.
1. I did not support Katie marrying Steve but felt I had to do the ceremony since they were members of my church.
2. I told them that they should forgo having children due to Steven’s issue.
3. When I found out they decided to have a child, I suggested that they give the child up for adoption.
4. When they refused, I wrote a letter to the courts expressing my deep concern for the safety of the baby.
That’s all he would have to say. But, I wonder if he is not able to do so?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
May wrote:
I wonder if he was advised on what to say and not what to say in case it ever came back to bite him on the nose. I believe he was aware that some in the community of Moscow were quite concerned.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Let me also say something loud and clear. I am NOT a Doug Wilson hater.
I address my concerns about his actions and how his words appear. I deeply disagree with a number of his beliefs which include silly things like a wife’s hair should be longer than her husband’s hair. He has theorized that 6 inches ought to do it to stay biblical.
http://dougwils.com/s8-expository/what-nature-teaches.html
It should not surprised him that folks think that odd. I would love to sit down and talk with him face to face.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
None of those sound Gospel™ enough, Dee – You have no career as a pastor.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Joan:
Thank you for taking a screen shot. I have read the post but forgot to do that.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Eagle:
And you are Second Son alpha
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
You said the Sekrit Woid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwBKjK7Xik0
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
GovPappy wrote:
And so am I. That’s why we all get along.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
I laughed.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Sarah Roorda:
I have listened to it. It was in an opening prayer by another older man who appeared to read the words. Doug is in charge of that church and anything that goes on in the service is approved by him. If he claims he had nothing to do with it, I would ask him point blank-does he or does he not agree with the prayer?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Bedroom Evangelism to grow the Kirk.
Outbreed those Heathens and Heretics and Poo Fighters.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
That would be a nice trip.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“Discernment Divas”
Love it! Where can I buy a tshirt?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
Having one of his Elders(TM) do it gives him Plausible Deniability.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
“Pedo Hustler”?
I’m not sure what he means by that, but if you ever do another post about Wilson, you now have an angle or excuse to work in this song/video, which is a catchy disco tune:
Van McCoy – “The Hustle”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeUfDTn5huM
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Chemie wrote:
Churches in my part of rural Kentucky still sing hymns in 4 part harmony (soprano, alto, Britons, and bass). But, church hymns are almost never sung at weddings. Music for weddings are usually from the more secular arena.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nancy2:
Bah, auto correct. Britons should be baritone.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
I wanna go, too! My hair is so short it will give DW a seizure!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Someone from Doug Wilson’s church has been posting on Julie Anne’s Spiritual Sounding Board for a couple of days and made this statement:
“Christ Church is not affiliated with Church of Christ. Church of Christ is a denomination. Christ Church is in a Presbyterian denomination. CRÈC The two denominations have no contact.” R. Lloyd
I could not find that DW’s church is part of larger Presbyterian organization that has oversight over them. Why are they claiming “Presbyterian denomination”?
I only found this from one of Wilson’s former professors at the University of Idaho:
“Furthermore, Wilson co-founded the Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches, a small denomination that follows the “Federal Vision,”a theology now rejected by every major conservative Presbyterian denomination.”
http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/ngier/WilsonEmpire.htm
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
I think people like this take the Bible the wrong way, or apply it the wrong way, and so it looks ridiculous.
I do feel that some of the principles in the Bible were meant for all time, like loving your neighbor as yourself and so on.
However, I don’t think things like hair length, which is bound by culture, and which may be mentioned in some letter in the New Testament to some church 2,000 years ago, is necessarily meant to be binding on all people in every local church in every nation.
I’m guessing most of these instructions by Paul were only addressed at all to start with because churches at the time had specific questions and concerns they were wondering about, and hair length may have been a big to-do in some ancient city back then.
It’s not really an issue for us in 2015 United States.
On that same page, Wilson says this about men:
After reading that, I am reminded of this comment by Jesus (from Matthew 23):
I think hair length on men and women is likely of a low concern for God, as compared to other things in life. Possibly, I’m just guessing.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
I am reminded of an old joke about the difference between a beef patty and a cow patty!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ GovPappy:
There’s another man named Wilson who treats sex offenders. Pretty sure now that the Wilson mentioned in the Progress Report is NOT Doug Wilson. Nevertheless, IMO, the letter is important to understand that the court had Sitler’s own disclosures in evidence, not just, as Doug Wilson claims, the prosecutor’s characterization of the polygraph.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I may get in trouble here as I had this problem for years( down 130lbs)…but, I wonder what Wilson’s Biblical view on gluttony might be?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
The proper phrase, especially in this context, is: “Bless his little heart . . ..” or “Bless his itty bitty heart . . ..” The latter may be more appropriate. An alternative would be “Bless his little bitty black heart!” And that is not a racial comment, but a sin condition comment.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bless your pea-pick in’ heart?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dee, he has admitted that you are fighting the BS that is his theology and endorsement of a naive young person marrying a pedophile. A “Poo Fighter” fights the poo from DW and the Kirk, as in poo meaning bull puckeys.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
oooo! Now, that would be an intriguing field trip. And picnic. It’s been a while since I’ve been in the Palouse.
Meanwhile, I just made up a new word that I think well describes this situation:
Theoautocratic = theologically-justified narcissistic authoritarian activism.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“Seems like Mr Wilson is now the “Pope of Letting Poo Loose.”
I’ve always thought of him as the Mullah of Moscow.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The woman asked an elder to find her a mate? If ever there were an argument against arranged marriages this case would be it.
The only thing I can match this with is dealing with unethical vendors, the type that sell you what they want to get rid of rather than what you need.
Woman walks in the door and asks the salesman for a husband.
Salesman then walks to the manager’s office and says “we have someone here looking for a husband”
Manager asks “is she gullible?”
Salesman responds “yeah, probably, she is asking me to pick her life partner”
Manager “don’t we still have that pedophile on the back shelf no one wants?”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ An Attorney:
Well, I just have to admire Wilson’s stick-to-it-ness. God love him. 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Sometimes we just need a laugh (not the the topic is always funny but the way it is visualized can be). Stop by https://crecmemes.wordpress.com/2015/09/07/and-by-the-way/
to see the Kirk portrayed accurately. It is one of my favorite places to visit.
Rose Huskey
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Mae:
@ dee:
Thanks people, & others, like Numo for your thoughts & prayers. My dogs are really precious to me & have been with me through thick & thin. No-one else in the universe riots with joy daily just because they hear my car 🙂 I am not tough when it comes to them.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ William:
Does he really think “poo fighters” qualifies as satire? I have no problem with Christians using satire, but…”poo fighters”? That’s not satire. It’s just an insult. And a really lame one at that.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Oh, & a P.S. to this…I would never allow a man in my house who had to be supervised in line of sight all the time as he interacted with my dogs. My dogs. And when it comes to my nephews & niece? Stare at them weird, let alone any of Steven Sitler’s offences? I will end you. Who defends that child like he deserves?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
Doug Wilson founded the Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches which is now known as the *Communion* of Reformed Evangelical Churches. He is the head of the denomination, and there is no oversight body as in the PCA or OPC or EPC or ECO or PCUSA. Doug Wilson is the Pope. He has various Cardinals, including Peter Leithart who was not disciplined by the PCA and remains, AFAIK, a teaching elder in the PCA. Another Cardinal is James Jordan, and I do not know if he is affiliated with a Presbyterian denomination. I doubt it. Their College of Cardinals is in Birmingham is called Trinity House or somesuch. My information is several years old, and they have a habit of renaming their associations as well as reworking Reformed theology. There is quite a cast of interesting characters of whom Wilson is only one.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Gram3:
Just to be clear, the CREC does not have an office of Cardinal as the RCC, but they have men who function similarly.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
He’s done it again. I know I’ve said this before, but almost every time I read anything by Wilson, there’s at least one sentence where I honestly have no idea what he’s talking about. What is “pedophile hustler” even supposed to mean?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
That’s a pretty accurate description by Dougie- you’re the fighter, he’s the poo.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Hester:
Agree entirely!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I’m looking at a time line thing at the site – http://sitler.moscowid.net/
Sitler and Katie got engaged on their SECOND ever date?!? 😯 Nooooo. That is so wrong. I know she was in a hurry to get to the altar, but jeeze louise!
1 Corinthians 7 needs to get its fair hearing in churches, instead of drumming into women that their only goal in life should be to marry and have children.
1Cor7:
Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do.
…But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
Thanks, Gram3, for explaining the history of Wilson’s church.
My first tip-off that they couldn’t possibly belong to the Presbyterian denomination/organization is that the national organizations have child sexual abuse prevention policies and trainings and wouldn’t handle a case of this seriousness the way Wilson has done.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I’m confused about the Colville church. The sign on Emanuel church in Colville says OPC but there is also a CREC church there. So, which church kicked Sitler out? Was there a split and the CREC church formed out of Emanuel OPC? It would not be the first time that the CREC “planted” a church.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
I think that title belongs completely to Doug Wilson.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
The church’s website (holytrinitykirk DOT com) says it was started in 2007. So I’d say “formed out of Emanuel OPC” is probably exactly what happened.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ mirele:
Thanks. I believe Sitler’s dad is an elder at Holy Trinity CREC. So, Sitler gets kicked out of Emanuel OPC in 2005 and Holy Trinity Kirk starts up in 2007 with Steve Sitler’s dad as an elder. Ed Iverson was in Fallon, NV until he moved to Moscow about 2004. I wonder if Iverson had anything to do with launching Holy Trinity CREC in Colville after Steve Sitler got kicked out of Emanuel OPC? Was Iverson an apostle sent out from Moscow to “plant” Holy Trinity CREC? I wonder.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Last night about this time I confused Jared Moore, doctoral student at SBTS, with Jared Wilson of TgC. I apologize to Jared Moore for associating him with Jared Wilson’s approval of Doug Wilson’s PCCP view of marital intimacy. Now, I find out that Jared Moore actually does agree with Doug Wilson and thinks that all these mean women are going after Doug Wilson because he is patriarchal. And Jared Moore thinks it is perfectly fine that Doug Wilson married a convicted multiple-offender pedophile to a young woman who was steeped in patriarchy. It is fine with Jared Moore if this young woman is commanded to submit to a convicted pedophile, because she is a “consenting adult.”
How did someone with such little comprehension of the duties of a pastor get to be a pastor himself? How can someone with such a hard heart toward innocent children ever teach men to care for little ones and protect them? How can a doctoral student at the SBC’s flagship seminary be so dense or blinded that he thinks that people are objecting to this farce because of opposition to Doug Wilson’s theology of gender and not because a young woman was used to “cure” a young man of pedophilia and find a wife for the son of prominent Doug Wilson supporters? How can a doctoral student think that objecting to the marriage of a convicted pedophile means that we are denying the empty tomb?
It seems that the Jareds cannot triage Kingdom ethics very well.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
Plainly stated.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
Jared Moore was also one of the nominees for SBC president last year. IIRC, he finished third in a field of three.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ The Deebs & others who blog:
Keep the heat turned up. You women of valor (Eishet Chayil) are making it increasingly difficult for these guys to operate with impunity.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
JYJames wrote:
I think there were multiple ways she was used. The Sitlers were disgraced when Sitler was kicked out of Emanuel. Their son rendered himself unmarriageable in any sane world with clear-headed adults making decisions. What to do? Did the Sitlers know Ed Iverson who knew Katie’s family from Fallon, NV? By the time Sitler was convicted, Iverson was in Moscow and in the perfect position to find a wife for Sitler and “cover the shame.” It is important to remember that purity culture is a shame culture.
Also, from Wilson’s PR perspective, he had no good options with this crime and ensuing scandal, and maybe Wilson thought marrying Katie off to Sitler was his least-bad option that might perhaps make the whole thing die down after awhile. And apparently it did until recently. Of course, any decent human being would never have considered doing what Wilson and Katie’s parents and the Sitlers did, but there you have it. Facts are ugly and persistent sometimes.
That does not provide an adequate explanation for why Katie was willing to marry a convicted pedophile. His family was well-off and his dad was an elder. That is a big deal in CREC world, and it would be an honor to be married by Wilson. But was that enough? I don’t see it, and I think there is more to the story. Sitler’s posts about their courtship are creepy, IMO, as if he is overselling the idea.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nancy2 wrote:
How depressing is that? I wonder how many pewpeons in the SBC know that there are men in leadership who think it is perfectly fine for a pastor to officiate at the wedding of a convicted pedophile? How many pewpeons know that there are men in leadership who think that people who are outraged by this are deniers of the Gospel and the power of the Resurrection? What kind of theology are they teaching at SBTS? Jesus rising from the dead cures pedophilia? This sounds like Word Faith teaching more than Southern Baptist Evangelical teaching.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
One has to wonder what happened in Katie’s background where she would agree to marry a guy on the second date and a that a pedophile sounded like the *best she could do*. Why didn’t she think she was worthy of better? (It’s like the women who marry guys in prison. There is something seriously damaged in them as women that they are not willing to sit with and look at.)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
A frequent complaint here is the failure of pastors to report paedophiles when they are discovered. I don’t know a great deal about Wilson except he was an articulate opponent of Christopher Hitchens (where are the British Christians capable of this?!!). (I’ve read him from time to time – interesting but sometimes opinionated, sometimes I agree, sometimes not, culturally he is very distant.) Having quickly perused the relevant parts of Wilson’s blog, at least he ensured Sitler was reported immediately when his crimes came to light. Shouldn’t credit be given where credit is due?
It also would appear that 10 years ago some internet commentators and reporters were gunning for him over his overall theology (probably patriarchy) and were using Sitler as a means to this end, regardless of the damage this did to the families of the victims. I can’t altogether blame Wilson in the light of this for being against ‘trial by internet’. It looks as though some people want to portray Wilson in the worst possible light, for example, by using truncated quotations. This is hardly objective.
Now Wilson may have been crassly naive in presiding over Sitler’s marriage. He may have been party to something that was unwise (understatement of the year) from the beginning. But to the extent that this was wrong, it is down primarily to those who got married and the parents. If Wilson started laying down who could or could not get married, would he then be accused of authoritarianism? My overall point is I get the impression that Wilson could never do anything right.
I don’t think though he is ever likely to realise he may have taken in or change his views if the criticism this time round lacks the objectivity it did last time round.
This is obviously an issue where feelings run high, but the anger of man does not work the righteousness of God (a verse that has blessed me many a time in my Christian experience of necessity). Like Wilson’s mates at TeamPyro with whom I have fallen out of sympathy (by and large), criticism must be fair criticism. It’s not fair if it is a distortion of what they actually say, but more to the point it won’t do any good, it will never effect change where this is necessary.
I’m glad I’m not a pastor. Just what should a church do with a repentant paedophile? Somehow balance the continued protection of children as the top priority with not making this sin the unforgivable sin. Avoid gullibility, but not treat them as lepers. Who said the Christian life is easy.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I just realized why the name “Sitler” sounds so familiar.
Anybody watch South Park? (Add an “h” after the S)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
(Strange–for months this website has been assigning me an Australian flag, but finally I get a Taiwan one. I’ve never been to Oz.)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Doug Wilson.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I also have to say that ‘Pedophile Hustler ‘ & ‘poo fighter’ are the worst insults I’ve ever heard, worst meaning, obviously, the most useless. If you cannot come up with a decent insult your thinking skills are self-proclaimed as limited.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Beakerj:
I think he knows he’s wearing out terms like ‘shrill’, ‘female-dog goddess of ________’ (fill in the blank), and other negative terms for females, etc
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2012/11/doug-wilson-almost-channels-eric-cartman.html
He’s trying to be creative and not too inflammatory. But he’s really not that creative. And he’s angry enough he’s not thinking things through very well.
Because Pedo-hustler really describes him and Sitler’s parents much better than anyone here talking about the story.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken wrote:
John Lennox has debated Hitchens Dawkins, and Ehrman. He is also very friendly with Dawkins as well.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Mara wrote:
Let me rephrase that.
When you take away using colorful terms to disrespect and insult women and when you take away using outrageous, inflammatory terms, then you tie his hands of creativity. You tie the hands of his true passion. So he’s not able to be quite so creative and his insults lack bite and intelligence.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken wrote:
If you would carefully read my posts on Doug Wilson, you will find that there is much to be concerned about when it comes to Wilson.Ken wrote:
Wilson is playing both hands against the middle. And he is roped you into his excuse for his encouragement and endorsement of this marriage. Ask him if he endorsed this marriage in counseling sessions. Ask him if he endorsed the prayer that asked for God’s gift of children in this marriage. See if you can get a straight answer.
There is a reason that people think his little “kirk” is a cult.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Mara wrote:
I believe that Wilson was truly expecting this marriage to be the cure for Sitler. Wilson’s understanding of psychiatric condition is limited just like his view on HIV. In that instance, he jumped on the opinion of an excellent scientist who screwed up the end of his career by going down a rabbit trail, pretty much by himself. The same goes for this. I think he truly believed that a marriage could cure a pedophile. Things did not go according to plan.
Wilson likes taking an extreme and minority opinion and then spending his days telling us why he is so much smarter than the rest of us.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
Ken –
You don’t have to read very much of Doug Wilson to learn he’s off the rails with regard to his theology. It only took me one book and his smug little blog.
Even if he was, at best, simply being naive in marrying a young woman to a paedophile, why isn’t he now owning up to his massive error of judgement? Instead of a contrite ‘I did the wrong thing’, we are getting excuses, fudges, re-writing the narrative, half-truths, blaming the critics and infantile bickering over Twitter.
Wouldn’t a godly pastor be more honest and actually accept that he had some responsibility for this – a role in overseeing a marriage that has resulted in horrific sin and crime? Forget godly pastor, wouldn’t any normal person be simply horrified at what has happened and be showing some concern for the victim? Yet we have had zero acknowledgement from Douglas that an innocent baby has been violated by his own father.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
speaking of pedophillia….. I can’t calll this a true christian website unless pedophillia among homosexual groups are also called out…. http://christiannews.net/2015/09/08/homosexual-activist-human-rights-campaign-buys-freekimdavis-com-to-deceptively-raise-funds/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I confess that I spent way too much time over the weekend reading and commenting at dougwils.com. Here are my not surprising conclusions re: Doug Wilson, Christ Church/Moscow ID, Blog and Mablog, and his handling of the sordid Sitler affair.
1. Mr. Wilson is an insecure cult leader who revels in stirring up controversy so he can engender sympathy and support from his followers. That’s what a cult leaders does.
2. Christ Church, exhibits the characteristics of a cult. Small. Isolated. Ingrown. Inflated sense of importance. Us vs. Them mentality. True defenders of the the true faith.
3. Blog and Mablog is a horrendous piece of pseudo intellectual blather. It exists solely for the purpose of glorifying Mr. Wilson, easing his insecurities, and selling his and his family’s books. There is no useful dialogue with his followers.
4. In the grown up world of church and church leadership, a pastor who would condone and bless the marriage of a 23 year old woman who accepted a proposal on her 2nd date from a convicted serial pedophile on probation for life, would lose his pulpit, and rightfully so.
5. Finally, I will not return to dougwils.com. For me, It is an exercise in futility and not good for my blood pressure.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
I suspected this early on.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/09/04/pedophile-supported-by-doug-wilson-molests-a-baby-christians-there-is-no-excuse-this-must-stop/comment-page-1/#comment-218366
And someone has linked Katie Botkin’s comments on this confirming it.
It is too bad that DW won’t admit that he was wrong about his doctrine in the face of this glaring evidence.
But once again, we see that guys like this are far more interested in keeping their positions, trying to save face, and worshiping their doctrines than dealing in any kind of truth.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
Hardly. But from what I have read, he does field some of the accusations made against him quite well, which means for him to actually listen, criticism needs to be accurate, which sometime it isn’t. PCCC is not my type of language, and I had assumed from the fuss made about it it was something grossly insulting. On reading his piece about it, it was mundane and hardly worth bothering with.
One thing I don’t agree with him is his tendency to equate a free market capitalist system with ‘biblical Christianity’. This has done immense harm imo to the church in the UK (e.g. Victorian Britain). But this is not relevant to the current issue that has arisen, as PCCC is also hardly relevant.
If he has done something morally wrong, he deserves criticism for this, but the focus needs to be on this and not on his other views which may or may not be worth discussing.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken wrote:
In the very place that authoritarians says they shine brightest, that is where Wilson completely failed. Wilson makes wretched mistakes towards those who gave their authority to him. This is the issue.
If he is going to wield the power of his authoritarian position, he also has to take responsibility for the failures, as he does for the successes. He cannot decide others’ lives for them and blame them only when things go wrong.
Yet, Wilson has never said, “I was simply wrong about this. I am sorry”. These guys jaw on about “Servant leadership” roflol
A “servant leader” would focus on Katie and her infant son. Sitler already has many people at his disposal—-PO officers, treatment center, therapists. Who does Katie have? Who is taking care of the son, doing the early work of mitigating trauma? Wilson has a vital responsibility here, not only as a fellow human being but as the self-annointed patriarch on whom his members rely for spiritual/mental/physical direction.
tldr: If one is going to be an authoritarian, one takes responsibility. It turns out that no human is capable of it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Patrice wrote:
I’m afraid I think this term is a load of sanctimonious hogwash. I heard stuff about being willing to submit to ‘wise, mature, accountable, godly eldership entrusted with the care of the flock’ in the UK. You could hardly refuse to do that, could you, except behind the well-meant words was a system that robbed you of too much of your Christian liberty, made you dependent on other men, and meant more of a yoke than anything else. Blest be the bind that ties, as it were.
The commitment was all one way, too. You supported them (££££) in return for hour-long sermons in which you had to fight to keep awake. That’s about the closest you would ever get to being the church militant.
The saddest thing of all was that for all the talk of pastoral care, far too many sheep didn’t actually get any. That’s all it was – talk.
Whilst I would admit Douglas Wilson can be interesting and make you think, some of his output is also little more than hot air. A lot of verbiage, not always so much content. Well sometimes it does remind me of the hour-long sermons!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Patrice:
Hehe. I anticipated Ken’s question last night – didn’t get a chance to comment about it.
Dee says DW is playing both sides.
Your point is that this is the reason for such authority – to prevent these things (in theory) – to save us poor ordinary folks from ourselves, and he failed miserably.
I agree with both assessments. DW is disingenuous with his statement. He wants all the perks of being the big cheese, but none of the responsibility when crap hits the fan and people are hurt.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken wrote:
I agree that the responsibility lies with Katie, her parents, Steven, and his parents. But that does not absolve Wilson of his responsibility in this debacle. To let him off the hook for pastoral malpractice simply is not reasonable. A failure of duty by one person doesn’t make the other person’s actions OK.
Read up on Federal Vision and Reconstructionism before that. Do you realize that Wilson teaches salvation by church membership? 9Marks is nothing compared to Wilson and his cronies. Do you think that marital intimacy is best characterized by “penetrate, conquer, colonize, plant” and that marital intimacy cannot be “an egalitarian pleasuring party?” Those are just the ones that capture Wilsons perverted view of men and women. Are you willing to defend this man just because you agree about patriarchy? These people have split churches, divided families, and have attempted to infiltrate Presbyterian churches. There is nothing commendable in that or their theology.
Please read more about Wilson. The fact that he debated Christopher Hitchens does not make him a hero nor does it erase the other things he has done and continues to do. I really wish you would stop and look at things without your patriarchy lens, because you are parroting the talking points of his allies.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Have you read Doug’s blog entry from yesterday entitled “The High Mountain Air of Public Calumny”? The swagger that frame Doug’s life is fully present. Remember, it is always about Doug, he never admits error or apologizes, and he really, really thinks he is funny. Here are two short paragraphs which encapsulate everything I know about Doug.
“Those who believe themselves to be hep to my tricksy ways might have surmised that I orchestrated this entire recent flap about Steven Sitler because Randy Booth and I recently put out a book entitled A Justice Primer. But whether you are disposed to believe me or not, that was a total coincidence. In this book we address biblical principles for evaluating charges that are brought against someone, anyone. The book is, I believe, quite a necessary resource for good-hearted Christians everywhere — who regularly see defamatory information scrolling by in their Facebook feed.”
And the rewards of Nancy (whatta gal) buying him a bottle of whiskey to celebrate God’s appreciation of him.
“This kind of controversy gives fuller meaning to the communion of opprobrium that faithful ministers of every age share. Jesus says that we are to rejoice when people revile us, in part because of the company it puts us in.
“Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you” (Matt. 5:11–12 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ).
And Jesus doesn’t say we are to be a little bit glad. He says exceedinHg glad. He says that we are to go around the corner, get out of their sight, and do a little jig. In this case, Nancy — a Puritan jewel — celebrated by buying me a nice bottle of Laphroaig.”
Not a word about the baby. Not a word about taking responsibility for his part in this mess. Not a word of contrition.
Rose Huskey
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Patrice:
After being in an authoritarian cult for 23 years, I never once saw them take responsibility for a failure. Not once. After we parted ways with them, my father recited to me, “Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
And in case anyone is interested in what Tim Bayly and his wife have to say on this subject:
http://baylyblog DOT com/blog/2015/09/christ-churchs-open-letter-pastorally-wise
Closing ranks, are we? Shockeroo…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Rose Huskey wrote:
Where’s my barf bag?
I gotta get to bed before this stuff drives me nuts…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
Having observed this cult up close for decades, I have some ideas about what might have happened with Katie and her parents based on my personal observation of what has happened between some young people in this cult and related ones. But I don’t know if that is what happened here, so I won’t say what I think about that. My guess is that there is more than one simple reason for this mess.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Rose Huskey:
Because whenever we’re criticized, we get to claim Jesus’ promise of blessing for being persecuted.
BS.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Warning: When I tried following the link given by “call a ginger” (“speaking of pedophillia….. I can’t calll this a true christian website unless…”) my antivirus program gave me a warning that the site is infested.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken wrote:
FWIW, I was “gunning” for Wilson when I still had “complementarian” views. And that was the time when I had the most jaw-dropping exchanges with people over his aberrant theology of which patriarchy is merely a part. The excuses you are making for Wilson are right out of his playbook. The man is a professional victim who recruits allies by painting himself as being persecuted for righteousness’ sake and/or being the hero in the battle against “the world” and “debauched culture.” He does not preach the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ but rather salvation by baptism. Please do some more research about Wilson and his cronies. Start with Peter Leithart or James Jordan. Or the Theopolis Institute in Birmingham, AL. I was correct when I said before that they might have changed the name of their think tank, Trinity House. The name Theopolis should give you some idea of how they view the church.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I think that there are several reasons that Wilson cannot admit that he has been terribly mistaken(even sinfully mistaken) in believing that marriage would cure pedophilia. The first is the most obvious–he is too proud to acknowledge any fault. The second is related to the patriarchal theory that human “christian” authority can never apologize for mistakes because it undermines the authority of God. This ridiculous position is revealed in the patriarchal admonition to parents to NEVER apologize or acknowledge mistakes to their children because it undermines the authority of God. I was reminded of this when reading thru the numerous links given on the TWW website over the weekend. This of course sets up cognitive dissonance in children very early in life and this in turn results in either fits of rebellion in the children or a type of brainwashing where the children no longer think logically but only as directed to think by the authority. The ramifications of this are scary and tragic. Truth can be manipulated and never questioned.
Another concern of mine re: the Sitler tragedy is that the patriarchy brainwashing of Katie may lead her to obey her husband even where sin is involved because in that system the husband as the head makes him the one responsible and she must only be responsible to obey him. When the state becomes involved she may choose instead to follow her “godly” training and even flee with the baby to an agreed upon place of reunion with her husband where the state can not interfere with her “obedience.” We must pray that our Lord will deliver her from the brain fog of this distorted system of thinking–a very difficult journey!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Read it and the comments supporting Bayly and Wilson. It appears to me that these people will protect one another with absolutely no concern, or even recognition, for those who are hurt or destroyed by their teachings. Forgive the sinner, blame those who have been sinned against.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
I left a message–short, sweet and to the point. Let’s see how long it lasts.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Rose Huskey:
The hubris of that most recent blog post by Wilson is breath-taking.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Ken:
Someone else can correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Sitler the second pedophile Wilson married off, or that he covered for (Jamin Wight being the other)?
Another problem with Wilson is that even in one of his latest posts about this problem, he does not accept responsibility for his role in this at all.
Wilson is more upset he feels he is being persecuted or criticized than he is with the welfare of the wife or the baby.
I also believe Wilson’s views on women, marriage, etc, led to a lot of this, in addition to his huge ego.
These guys scream that they believe in protecting women, and that women are “equal in value but not in role” and they end up abusing women, or providing cover for men who do use and abuse women, showing something is amiss with their gender role teachings.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Mara wrote:
Regarding Wilson:
Pastors: Stop Disrespecting Women With Your Chauvinistic Name-Calling
https://timfall.wordpress.com/2015/02/26/pastors-stop-disrespecting-women-with-your-chauvinistic-name-calling/
Wilson quote:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Retha wrote:
Well, that’s not cool. I’ve got too much to do today to spend time cleaning malware off my PC. Thanks for the heads up.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Patrice wrote (quoting Ken):
How many people honestly think a 23 year old woman marrying a known pedophile is a good idea?
How many people honestly would want their 23 year old daughter (if they had one) marrying a known pedophile?
Some of the only people defending this are Doug Wilson supporters.
If another pastor, especially one not of their church or favored theology, had supported this, how many of the guys defending Wilson would be defending this other person?
If Rev Andy Stanley or liberal-ish Christian Rob Bell had encouraged or officiated at a wedding of a woman marrying a known pedo, would these same guys defending Wilson defend Stanley or Bell? My guess if most likely no, they wouldn’t.
It’s more about defending their pet preacher or favorite brand of theology/ doctrine than it is being honest about things, or caring about what happens to people (such as Katie and her infant son).
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
‘And the rewards of Nancy (whatta gal) buying him a bottle of whiskey to celebrate God’s appreciation of him.’
Ah yes…
“And Jesus doesn’t say we are to be a little bit glad. He says exceeding glad. He says that we are to go around the corner, get out of their sight, and do a little jig. In this case, Nancy — a Puritan jewel — celebrated by buying me a nice bottle of Laphroaig.”
So they’re celebrating this whole blow-up. Got it…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ NJ:
I liked this comment on his blog post:
“Well, it’s just wonderful to know you’re doing okay.
However, some of us are a little more concerned about how Sitler’s infant son is doing.
You know, the actual victim here.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Amen, May. I agree with everything the few such as Guester had to say on there.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
Or we could talk about those ignorant men who blindly suck every word from Wilson, but who are themselves aggressive f**ks, Mr Marshmallows, or stringy metro-sexuals with beady little eyes and soul patches.
It’s easy to be nasty. Every school-yard bully does it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Rose Huskey wrote:
Because “IT’S ALL ABOUT MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
I’ve not read or listened to those debates myself.
I read conflicting reports on this by people who have heard the debates. The Christian sites I’ve been to, the Christians say that Wilson mopped the floor with the atheist.
I was on an atheist site a couple of days ago where the atheists say Wilson failed and the atheist (Hitchens) beat Wilson.
Both sides (Christian v. atheist) have widely diverging views of who the debate winner was, which I found kind of funny.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Rose Huskey wrote:
There’s a music video somewhere on YouTube that includes the following lyrics:
“Jesus didn’t die
So you could be an A-hole…”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
Pastor of the Kirk ordered her to under pain of Hellfire?
I don’t know what the actual psych name of that is, but the most descriptive non-psych term is “Harley Quinn Syndrome”.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Rose Huskey:
Wilson’s writing style bothers me.
Aside from the fact he doesn’t apologize, take responsibility, or own up to his part in the Sitler situation, he comes across as liking to hear the sound of his own voice. He seems to think of himself as being very clever.
I think he enjoys playing the role of wordsmith.
He should have pursued a career in journalism or become a novelist. That way, he could have scratched his itch of writing prose, and thinking of himself as being witty on paper or computer monitor, and less people would have been hurt in the process.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
JYJames wrote:
Well, in the Victorian era sex with a virgin was supposed to cure syphilis; that’s why child prostitutes were so popular among Proper Respectable Victorian Men.
And in Africa during the AIDS epidemic, sex with a virgin (the younger the better) was supposed to cure AIDS…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Rose Huskey wrote:
According to Wilson, whatever he thinks or does is true, good and beautiful. When he thinks he’s funny, then anyone with a funny bone will laugh with him. When he thinks he’s intelligent, then every word drips depth. When he declares something beautiful, then yessiree it’s not only that but the bestest most beautifulest in all the land.
Conversely, whatever he doesn’t think, isn’t true. His areas of ignorance cannot be plumbed by anyone because, in fact, they do not exist. Also too, he cannot do wrong if he doesn’t allow such an idea into his head. So he doesn’t allow it, and he isn’t. Ever.
The whole universe is inside the head of the narcissist. Unfortunately it’s a very small space, so the most of it has to be left out. lol
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nancy2 wrote:
They have a bromance.
Wilson and Bayly
https://crecmemes.wordpress.com/2015/01/27/wilson-and-bayly/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Just read an excellent post by Katie Botkin on her blog.
http://kbotkin.com/2015/09/07/doug-wilson-on-marriage/
Wow.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I completely agree.. It is all about him…. It is also clear that he is trying to distance himself from his actions… What is shocking is all the people that still support and follow Douglas Wilson.
Hey Mr. Wilson, I agree with the overall effort of this blog (WW), to look out for the victims of Spiritual and physical abuse, for which you are a clear perpetrate.. And guess what, I am a 55 year old, professional man ( and you can not bully, or put me down like the weaker ones you prey on….. I am not a “pushy broad, twinkies in tight tops, or waifs with manga eyes” And unlike you that is celebrating with a bottle of whiskey (or what ever spirit you are referring to), I am grieving for that male infant and damage that has been done to the name of Christ….
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Patrice wrote:
And of course it’s all provable from the Bible. And if you don’t believe my ‘proof’ from Scripture? Well… then you don’t believe the Bible.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
Patrice wrote:
Jeffrey wrote:
How much whiskey does it take to make an “intelligent” “wordsmith” like Doug Wilson? I know I’m being snarky, but I couldn’t help but make the connection.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
I think you are right and I’d add: I’ve “followed” Doug Wilson for some time (meaning, I’ve kept track of him, not believed in/supported him). My honest opinion? I believe that the prominent Gospel folks who continue to support him and link to his writings are at some level simply AFRAID to call him out. In fact, Doug has been known to aggressively go after those who call him out. Say or feel what you might about Rachel Held Evans (I know we’ve got many different opinions of her here) but after she wrote an excellent post in which she put a “trigger warning” at the beginning before addressing his writing, which she deemed (rightly so) to be homophobic and misogynistic, he started derogatorily tossing her name in his writing every chance he got. He still does some THREE YEARS LATER. IMO, once an “enemy” of Doug’s, always an enemy. And because he’s an enemy who seems to play by his own set of rules, he’s not the kind of enemy most people want to make.
There are a faithful few — like TWW, etc. — who are willing to make an enemy in him and others for the sake of standing up for the abused and marginalized. And for that, I commend you highly. It makes me respect you and others a heck of a lot more than those certain TGC/Reformed/Calvinist folks who keep promoting his stuff, quietly refusing to address the sucking chest wound (to use a phrase Doug enjoys applying to his enemies) that is Doug.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I wonder what Wilson and Bayly would say if you asked them to answer simply yes or no — with no qualifications — to the following question.
Would you gladly encourage your daughter to marry a convicted pedophile?
I’ll bet you they either would refuse to answer, or obfuscate entirely.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Sara wrote:
Just like Josef Stalin and Elron Hubbard…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yep! Exactly.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Patrice wrote:
I am reminded of the scene early in A Man for All Seasons, where King Henry VIII disembarks from his Royal Barge right into the mud of the riverbank. Splashed in mud up to his Royal codpiece.
All the nobles and courtiers on the barge stand like statues, totally silent. After a moment, King Henry starts laughing it off, then turns and points to the barge. Immediately ALL the nobles and courtiers start laughing as loud as they can.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
Oh, Daisy, you’re giving me a flashback to this one infamous local fanboy and wannabe writer. Locally infamous as a pathological motormouth in passionate love with his own voice and words, to the point his name got used as a verb meaning “to be cornered by a pathological nonstop talker”.
I once had the misfortune of trying to edit his writing. Every sentence oozed “See How Clever I Am?”, every paragraph (often literally) ending in “…” (as in “But Little Did They Know…”) and the screaming rage of a three-year-old if your “editing” dared to change a single word.
The guy ended up a Legend in His Own Mind and a total laughingstock to everyone else.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Patrice wrote:
…Pastor, Kirk(TM)…
I keep remembering Boz T — how when he was a prosecutor specializing in this sort of crime, if there was church involvement it was ALWAYS in Total Support of the Perp. NEVER the victim.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Sarah Roorda wrote:
I have not read about the J Wight case, just seen the mention in comments. I can only manage so much at a time… but the bolded part of the comment really stuck out. He tried to get her to repent of “sin” — the “sin” of being the victim of abuse, or the “sin” of somehow being to blame for, or the cause of the abuse? The comment is brief, and implies that his presence in the courtroom was intimidating to the victim, as well as implying support for the abuser. Did I read the comment right, or read more into the comment than was there?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Ken:
I think that would depend on the circumstances. In this case, I’d say no. Wilson wasn’t the final authority on whether Sitler could legally marry. If the judge had never okayed the marriage, Wilson’s opinion wouldn’t have mattered and he wouldn’t have been able to marry them. As it is, though, Wilson did get to decide whether he would be the one to marry him (pastors obviously have the discretion to decide who they’ll marry). If he had said no, he would have been perfectly within his legal rights, and if he had refused everyone would have seen the reason for doing so (pedophilia) as perfectly sensible. There were plenty of other pastors in the state Sitler could have gone to, or he could have been married by a judge. Of course, if he went around and discovered that no one would marry him (for obvious reasons), that should have caused everyone involved to wonder whether this was a good idea in the first place.
Even in a case where a pastor might refuse to marry a couple for obviously authoritarian reasons (like he’s not a member of our cult, or whatever), they do have the legal right to do so even if they’re jerks, and the couple still has the right to look elsewhere.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
You need only one for Guilt but two for Shame — one to commit the sin, the other to find out about it.
Axioms of a Shame Culture:
1) If Nobody finds out about my sin, I Am Not Shamed.
2) Dead Men Tell No Tales.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
Ah, you really ought to keep “busybody” on your short list. It’s a gem.
http://biblehub.com/topical/b/busybody.htm
…especially the verses about the younger widows, that they ought to get married (to keep them out of trouble, you know), because otherwise… “At the same time they also learn to be idle, as they go around from house to house; and not merely idle, but also gossips and busybodies, talking about things not proper to mention.” (1 Tim 5:12-13)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Daisy:
I think that’s usually what happens with debates, which is why I usually don’t watch them. They seem to be of limited usefulness, except maybe to people on the fence. People who’ve already made up their minds only watch them for football purposes (“Go Team [Republican, Democrat, Atheist, Christian, etc.]!”).
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
This doesn’t make sense to me. Wouldn’t Wilson be the pedophile hustler, rather?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
Brings a whole new meaning to the term “Prairie Muffin” which, if I remember right, used to be a term of pride for SAHMs. Maybe I’m remembering wrong. I know it started as a joke, and became a banner, with its own Manifesto, even.
But seeing poo = meadow muffin and making the jump to prairie muffin… in other words, ironically, the Titus 2 movement was all a crock of merde (it’s what we say instead of the ‘s’ word or ‘c’ word to get around the squickiness of the thought of the actual stuff. Did you ever have to deal with a toddler gleefully playing with handfuls of the stuff? That’s the image that comes to mind when I read about this kind of tweet insult, a toddler with Doug Wilson’s face, hands full of poo from an overnight diaper, painting the bedroom wall while waiting to be lifted out of the crib in the morning…).
Or you can go to the German “mist” — which brings a whole new meaning to the phrase “misty meadows”.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
May wrote:
In our former church, we had times where we practiced singing hymns in four-part harmony. They were voluntary practices, usually held after the shared meal that followed the worship service, for any who wanted to stay longer. For those who loved music, it was actually a lot of fun. I also remember, for awhile, there was something like a “hymn of the month” that was sung every Sunday for a month. Homeschooling families could take it a step further, practicing the hymn at home during the month so that the little ones could participate in sung worship, even if they were too young to read the words in the hymnal.
I don’t know if homeschooling is encouraged or discouraged at the “Kirk” since DW has such an investment in private classical schooling.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Hester:
I did listen to one debate several years ago, between two fairly well known personalities, an atheist and a Christian, debating about theism.
I can’t remember who either guy was – the Christian may have been W L Craig? – but anyway, in this particular debate, the atheist did so poorly, I did see atheists on atheists sites admit the Christian was the winner.
The atheists were like, “Wow, our guy did really, really bad.” They seemed pretty embarrassed and felt that particular atheist should not be representing their side anymore. 🙂
So how that works out can be funny too, when one side gets really honest about it and is like, “Our guy blows at debating!!”
I will listen to debates or read transcripts of them with an open mind.
But sometimes, it does seem people have a predisposed view of who they think won in a debate depending on who they favor.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
I am rubber, you are glue. Anything you say, bounces off of me and sticks on you!
(So, yes, “pedophile hustler” seems like the kind of term that would bounce off the deebs and stick to DW, in actuality.) And “poo fighter” reads like a compliment, where he is calling himself and his actions “poo”. The man is actually truthful in a twisted way.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Sara wrote:
*shrug* He can do that with my name all he wants. Seriously, go ahead, Doug. Be my guest. Scientology did the same thing and 15 years later, that site’s still up but I look prescient in telling people that Scientology is a cult.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
mirele wrote:
I wish more people felt that way!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
mirele wrote:
“Just like Scientology, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
When your Kirk(TM) and its antics remind people of Scientology, that’s NOT a good sign.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
refugee wrote:
Actually, I think the origin of “poo fighter” = “Foo Fighters” + “See How Clever I Am?”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
You remind me of the early original Star Trek episode, where something was causing the entire crew to go crazy. The ship, engines turned off, was falling into a star (I think — in any event, facing immanent destruction) and the crew member in control of the engines was musing aloud on issuing regulations regarding how female crew members should style their hair.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Look like friends of Doug Wilson have targeted Boz Tchividjian.
http://www.tobyjsumpter.com/on-disagreement-the-injustice-of-the-internet-lynch-mob/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed:%20HavingTwoLegs%20(Having%20Two%20Legs)&utm_content=FaceBook
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
refugee wrote:
I forget that episode . I will have to locate it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ refugee:
🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ refugee:
No matter hat I say, Wilson will accuse me of being an intellectual lightweight who doesn’t get his brilliance.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Hester:
There is a deep problem here with Doug Wilson saying he had to OK this wedding. This is the same guy who probably wouldn’t bake a cake for a gay marriage.
Had this been me, I would advice Katie to either get sterilized, or requested that Sitler get a vasectomy before I considered presiding over their marriage. If they refused, I would have said to get another pastor.
I take pedophilia very, very seriously and I would not have a guy in my congregation producing babies and screwing up the next generation. And he will screw up the next generation unless the magistrates in Moscow get a clue.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Leila wrote:
you ought to write this question on his website. His response would be interesting.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
That’s right. I don’t know about SBTS, but the responses I’m seeing in defense of the Duggars and Wilson indicate a belief that if you don’t claim that God can and will heal any ill, including the urges of a pedophile, you are a denier of the power of the gospel, and therefore an unbeliever or someone believing a false gospel.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
refugee wrote:
I believe every person with any kind of “besetting sin” and/or brokenness can find transformation toward wholeness and godliness in Jesus Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God and the love of the Father. That is a trajectory and a journey, the end state of which finds completion when we are in the presence of Jesus.
Even so, I don’t recall Scripture granting permission (or requirement) to run the equivalent of a theological social experiment on people just to prove that point, especially when full healing in this life is not guaranteed by Scripture — though it is in some toxic theologies — and especially when it is highly likely that others will be directly harmed as a result of our experimenting with their life.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
This actually sounds like something out of Monty Python. 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
refugee wrote:
The Apostle Paul was never healed of his thorn in the flesh . . . maybe that doesn’t count.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
brad/futuristguy wrote:
YES! But why don’t so many leaders get this, or maybe they just don’t care to think about the long term effects if their experiments go wrong.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
I hate to say it, but some of them might say “yes,” at least under certain conditions (but I’d think the more honest ones would say “well, no”).
As for the “yes” ones.
There was one thread I was following on social media about this story where a Wilson-ite kept referring to Sitler (and guys like him) as a “repented” pedophile.
They wouldn’t advocate a “regular” pedophile marry a young lady, but it’s all good if the pedo is a repented pedo, because hey, aren’t all Christians repented ____ (fill in the blank with whatever other sin).
It’s very frustrating they don’t grasp the seriousness of this. I do understand the Bible teaches all people are sinners, and that God will and can forgive and extends grace.
However, that does not mean you do things such as run around minimizing people’s problems (sins), nor does it mean you let your guard down and let a pedophile marry a woman and have kids with her.
Also, God forgiving folks and granting grace, or folks repenting, does not mean they will not relapse.
(Even the Apostle Paul said in one letter he still sometimes did wrong, and knowing that it was wrong.)
Some Christians are so naive. You can get away with any sin with them, no matter how heinous, and just slap the word “repented” in front of it, and they will give you free pass after free pass.
I think Jesus was addressing this issue in part (the believer’s tendency to be naive) when he said,
Sometimes the Non-Christians of the world (the unrepentant) are more wise than Christians. They see people and situations for what they really are, not what they want for them to be.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
refugee wrote:
They seem very Word of Faith-ish in this regard.
(Someone else noticed this too on another thread yesterday.)
God doesn’t always heal every physical ailment, relationship problem, or financial hardship a Christian has, so why do the Doug Wilsons, and TVCs, etc, classify pedophilia into its own special group, and think pedophilia is the one exception?
Guys with this sort of theology also do this with domestic violence (and clinical depression). They think if an abused wife just prays more or submit more to the abusive husband, the marriage will be restored. And it usually doesn’t work that way.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
Isn’t that the original meaning of “Discernment”?
Some years ago in an Internet Monk comment thread regarding Christians and the Arts (and the predominance of Jesus Junk), one commenter related a private revelation that Christians had dropped the ball so bad, He was removing his mantle from them and placing it upon secular creative types; henceforth, secular artists/writers/moviemakers would begin to say what God wanted said.
Could something similar be happening with Discernment?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bridget wrote:
In Catholic hagiography, many saints known for miraculous healings were chronically ill themselves, and never healed.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
refugee wrote:
And what happens if after going on record with that, YOU don’t get healed? What do you do then? Fake it?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
One has to wonder what happened in Katie’s background where she would agree to marry a guy on the second date and a that a pedophile sounded like the *best she could do*. Why didn’t she think she was worthy of better?
Velour, IMHO, this goes back to “sin is sin”, “all sin is the same”. That is how some members of Christ Church view this, so of course Katie equates the sin of pedophilia with the sin of losing one’s temper, or gluttony, or what have you. This line of thinking is not uncommon. Poor Katie; she never stood a chance
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
I think it’s titled “Naked Time”.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
refugee wrote:
I agree. I’m fairly certain it’s because he sees no difference bet. psychological ills and spiritual sin.
Psychology and religion overlap and many Christians, rather than work with the field (conversing, taking/giving), felt competition and renounced it as completely secular. Wilson does.
It shows in his treatment of Sitler. He is sketchy on pedophilia, but psychology is the only place where more info resides. So Wilson falls back on the same-old spiritual fundamentals, and assumes.
ISTM, he also does it with the abused. ‘Yeah, not so nice when that happens, but if they rely on God, they will be healed, or at least strengthened enough to fight and succeed.’ Trauma is just another spiritual challenge that God sends our way in the process of sanctification. We each get what we need for spiritual growth; our job is to accept and work. God doesn’t give us more than we can handle, etc. Complaining about it merely shows we are not accepting God’s plan for us.
It’s all sorts of messed-up and he’s also inconsistent because he’s “do as I say, not as I do”, manipulating left/right to arrange his own life to best advantage. The nepotism alone is disgusting.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dee, feel free to remove this if it isn’t allowed, but I wrote a blog post this past summer on how flabbergasted I was at the hypocrisy of demanding that God heal all marriages, but not heal cancer/car wrecks/Alzheimer’s/paralysis etc: http://iprefercaptain.com/2015/04/physical-healing-vs-marital-healing/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Patrice wrote:
As did Elron Hubbard and David Miscavage.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Sometimes I wonder if psychology is too frightening for idealists——looking at “what is” about us humans, a full-length mirror without the warm soft lighting of “how we could be if…”
Or maybe it’s mostly the narcissistic types who can’t bear it. I don’t know.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
I said something similar because Jared Moore said that people who say that Doug Wilson should not have married a convicted pedophile are denying the power of the Resurrection or the Empty Tomb. Let’s keep in mind that Jared is a pastor and a doctoral student at SBTS. IIRC, he is studying under Bruce Ware, the uber-Female Subordinationist and ESS proponent. Jared *must* defend Wilson’s decision to marry a pedophile. He has no choice because otherwise Wilson discredits their entire premise: Men were designed by God to have authority over them and protect and provide for women. Obviously, Wilson has not done that for Katie. Her father, a patriarch in this System, also failed her *and* her baby. Jared’s future in the SBTS/Gospel Glitterati pipeline depends upon fiercely defending Wilson and, so, patriarchy.
It is totally a Word Faith notion that repentance means automatic healing, whether the problem is sin, emotional issues or mental issues or physical issues. Name It and Claim It. The fact is that God does not make guarantees like that, and that is not what the orthodox view of salvation and sanctification is. But that doesn’t matter, because the primary doctrine which must be defended at all costs is Male Authority.
Another aspect is the “marriage will take care of illegitimate sexual desires.” Well, that didn’t work out so well for Josh Duggar, did it? Or every other married person who commits adultery. It defies common sense *and* experience. In my lifetime, people with a homosexual or bisexual orientation were advised to marry to “cure” that orientation. How many unsuspecting spouses got caught in that lie?
Until one of the Gospel Glitterati come out and condemn what Wilson did, then we may assume they think it is perfectly fine to marry a pedophile who *says* he is repentant to any of our daughters and granddaughters.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yes, that is exactly what you do if you can. In the case of addiction of various sorts, people can probably hide that for awhile. What they forget is that God does not make guarantees like that, and when God does heal people, he generally uses means to do that. Like doctors, nurses, psychologists, etc.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Timely discussion for me on whether God is “bigger” than pedophilia. Background to the story – two weekends ago I saw a roommate I lived with briefly over 30 years ago, and she suggested that we get all the ladies together who had lived in that house. One of the ladies is Dale Adams, who married Dave Adams, who had served jail time for abusing his step-daughter. She married him knowing his history, and I have a very difficult time wrapping my head around it, and really don’t desire to see her at this time. I also have a difficult time understanding why he continues to lead a band of teenagers and subject himself to temptation. I was sharing this with my first friend yesterday, and her words were “You know God is bigger than that.” She also said he could have repented. I basically told her I don’t care, he still shouldn’t be around kids, and if he were truly repentant he wouldn’t be. When I visited my second friend, she looked at me like I had two heads when I said that Dale married the guy, that they had kids, and that he leads a band consisting of teenagers. The irony of the situation is that the first friend does not attend Covenant Life, but the second friend does (but obviously is not a kool-aid drinker!)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Toby Sumpter is the pastor of Trinity Reformed Church.
T.R. was originally a daughter church plant of Christ Church pastored by Peter Leithardt. Pastor Leithardt actually has academic training in a recognized seminary. He was kicked to the curb a couple of years ago and Toby took his place.
(Trinity Reform grew out of from Christ Church following the “casino scandal” which involved a number of New Saint Andrews boys, their version of a gambling den with alcohol, drugs, and yes some girls. Doug’s fear that Christ Church would lose a significant number of the congregation which to the planing of a daughter church in town. T.R. is a clone of Christ Church – and don’t think for a moment they are autonomous. Toby is a graduate of Greyfriars Hall and Erskine Theological Seminary.
If anyone would like further information on the Jamin Wight story (another sexual predator) it is best heard through the survivor herself.
http://natalierose-livewithpassion.blogspot.com/
She is brave, honest, and strong.
Jamin Wight is a nasty piece of work. You can learn all you would ever want to know about him through the Idaho Court Repository where criminal records are kept. the site is free and has simple-to-follow directions.
https://www.idcourts.us/repository/start.do
when you get to the name search fill in; last name Wight
first name; Jamin
Chose Latah from the downward scrolling tab (that’s our county)
and click on ROA when the new page opens up.
You can do the same routine for Steve Sitler.
hope this helps.
Rose
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Rose Huskey wrote:
That is interesting. Do you know why Leithart was kicked out at Trinity? He’s now at Theopolis in Birmingham, the Federal Vision “think tank.” Did it have to do with his problems in the PCA?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Rose Huskey:
This was considered a scandal?! Hello–have these guys even BEEN to Scotland?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
That’s the tone of Credenda Agenda (a magazine), and a number of students I’ve met from NSA. Self-congratulatory. Liking the sound of their own voices. (My dad used to call it “liking the smell of their own farts”.) He is invested in training and inflicting on the world a ravening horde of little tin gods made in his image.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
I collected as many Christian books as I could on recovery from spiritual abuse and toxic ministry, then did an informal “content analysis” on several topics. This was a few years ago, but the three most frequently mentioned core non-orthodox (i.e., heretical) beliefs and practices in Christian “cults” and high-demand religious systems were:
* Authoritarian leadership and some variation on the Shepherding Movement where leaders act as a mediator between disciples and God, and also dictate to them actions that should be within the believer’s own discernment and decision making.
* Word of Faith, with its magical mantras of Name-It-And-Claim-It — pray it, say it, don’t delay it — or conceive it, believe it, receive it.
* Prosperity gospel, where God’s blessing on you/your ministry is supposedly validated with wealth.
And, advocates of such false doctrines may try to label them as “biblical,” what often happens is just “biblicizing” — citing Bible words and esoteric theological theories to make it sound biblical and therefore legitimate.
If nothing else, this particular situation offers a sort of “master class” in manipulation of theology and God’s people.
If you’re interested in a relatively comprehensive chronological list of Christian books on spiritual abuse recovery from 1975-2012, check out this link:
https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2012/03/24/chronology-of-books-on-spiritual-abuse-and-recovery/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I think it’s always been this way, at least going back 2,000 years, given my quote by Jesus Christ where Jesus told the story of a non-believer who was more shrewd in his dealings with other non-believers than the believers were.
On a related note, I saw an interesting critique a few days ago about Christian movies I wanted to share with you if I can find the link (I think you may enjoy it).
This might be it:
‘War Room’ Is Just As Cheesy As All Kendrick Brothers Films
http://thefederalist.com/2015/09/04/war-room-is-just-as-cheesy-as-all-kendrick-brothers-films/
Also, have you heard of the new Christian movie “War Room”?
Some are criticizing it because it sends the dangerous message that women in abusive marriages can just pray the abuse away.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
You are a Suppressive Person!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Zla’od wrote:
And Entheta.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
Only recently. Just the fact it’s plugged as a CHRISTIAN(TM) movie is enough for me to stay far, far away.
Not surprised.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
Check out the article on pathos.com evangelical channel: “Genie Jesus and the War Room Problem”, by John Mark N. Reynolds.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@Daisy and Headless Unicorn Guy – I thought I was one of the few who can’t stand all the cheese in Christian movies. I was bored over the weekend so I watched “God’s Not Dead” on Amazon Prime, and was in such a bad mood afterwards because of all the cliches and trite things in the movie (e.g. a guy from China becomes a Christian and the first thing he does is attend a Newsboys concert? Guess the film was funded by the Newsboys?)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3, Daisy, and others,
I posted an article by Dr. Keith Johnson, recommended by Baptist pastor Wade Burleson (The Wartburg Watch’s pastor for E-Church on Sundays) that you might find interesting in the whole comp/patriarchy debate. It’s at the top of the page here under the Interesting tab, Books, etc.
Wade said, “recently came across a brilliant article by Dr. Keith Johnson (Ph.D. Duke), the director of theological development for Campus Crusade for Christ. Johnson’s article is called Trinitarian Agency and the Eternal Subordination of the Son: An Augustinian Perspective.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Former CLC’er wrote:
I LOVE the cheese in Christian movies. But if you want a serious Christian film, try Robert Duvall’s “The Apostle.”
The writers of “God’s not Dead” had obviously never darkened the door of a real-world philosophy class, which gave the whole thing the feel of a Jack Chick tract. Which I loved. Can’t wait for the sequel, and am only sorry they’re not titling it “God’s 2 Dead”!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Rose Huskey:
Ryan Stollar just posted an article on Jamin Wight as well.
https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2015/09/08/the-jamin-c-wight-story-the-other-child-molester-in-doug-wilsons-closet/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
refugee wrote:
South Park called it “madly in love with the smell of their own farts”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMTkedIUX8U
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Zla’od wrote:
Z, most attempts at Christian fiction have the feel of a Jack Chick tract without the pictures. Even the attempts at Christian crossovers in My Little Pony fanfics.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nancy2 wrote:
Can you provide a link/URL?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Genie Jesus and the War Room Problem
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/eidos/2015/08/genie-jesus-and-the-war-room-problem/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ brad/futuristguy:
I have family members who are the “name it and claim it” group. They always tell me that God can heal my health problems. I just have to pray enough. They are missing the point here. Yes, God can heal my health problems, but on the other hand, I have learned so much because of what I have gone through physically. I wouldn’t be the person I am today if I had not gone through these health problems. God gives me the grace to go through each and every one of them and to be able to share with others what God has done for me.
Then if you want the prosperity message, look no further than Joel Osteen. His dad was a great man of faith, good Christian and had a good church. But it all changed when Joel Osteen took it over.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Gram3:
Is the place actually called Theopolis?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ brad/futuristguy:
Interesting to me that the guys defending the idea that marriage is a “cure” for lust of any kind do not seem to take into account the possibility that part of mortifying the flesh for a pedophile might look like staying unmarried so as not to bring grief to someone else. I just don’t see how bringing someone else into the problem makes the problem any smaller but rather ISTM that would compound the problem itself. Unless there is a copious amount of magical thinking on the part of these self-professed Reformed pastors.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Zla’od:
What do you think?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
The director also made “Fireproof.” Makes me want to move to a galaxy far, far away, or something like.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
harley wrote:
Thank you for saying this. There are many of us who struggle with difficult issues, yet we have seen God work through those. I don’t pretend to understand the problem of suffering, and certainly despise the way that Romans 8:28 is spritzed over real trauma.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Here are a couple of screenshots from a long defunct blog, first from page 85 of Doug Wilson’s book ‘Fidelity’:
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_f-dp6o9IOmo/SHyn3Rmrj-I/AAAAAAAAAwE/KZAAPfA92W4/85.jpg
Second from the letter to the judge where he urges him to apply ‘measured and limited’ sanctions:
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_f-dp6o9IOmo/SHyn83SjfGI/AAAAAAAAAwM/Cp09Zl8MUSk/Urge.jpg
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
numo wrote:
Yes. The other day I mentioned Trinity House and said they would probably change their name. Well, it turns out they did change their name. Rose says Leithart was kicked out of his position in Moscow and he landed on his feet in Birmingham at Theopolis. I also wonder if internal PCA politics played a part in his move. The Leithart saga is an interesting one, going back to the 80’s and Reconstructionism.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Former CLC’er wrote:
Thankfully, I’ve never seen any of these movies.
We have a local Christian group that promotes viewing these movies, once a month, for FREE, at a local community college. Makes me cringe….I actually kind of hope no one shows up for it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Rose Huskey:
I wrote this hastily and did not proof read it – which is clear to everyone. My apologies. It is curiously funny to me to read how I change my mind in mid-sentence and don’t go back to smooth it out later. I’m sorry, I will try not to be so sloppy in the future.
Rose
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Rose Huskey:
This part by Natalie Rose caught my eye, because we’ve discussed misuse of “church discipline” quite a bit:
“Years ago, I received letters from the church after I left telling me I was under church discipline and could no longer take communion there, meanwhile my abuser was welcomed back into the fold with open, loving arms…And people wonder why I left.”
So they disciplined and excommunicated the “woman” who was 13-16 y.o. and welcomed the “boy” who was 23-26, because he seemed penitent and she seemed “bitter”?
Is there any documentation about the “discipline” aspect? (just in case the Kirk claims she’s just a lying, slandering gossip)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Former CLC’er wrote:
Or had one helluva product placement.
After hearing a lot about “God’s Not Dead” and passing on it, I was a captive audience in my opthamologist’s waiting room earlier this year. Saw a movie looping on the big screen in the waiting room, pegged it as a Christian(TM) film in the first 30 seconds, then started fitting things together from descriptions of GND. Sure enough, after the altar call ending (and immediate death of the now-Saved atheist professor), I got confirmation in the closing credits that it WAS GND. Then it started looping back to the beginning; fortunately, about 10 minutes in I got called for my appointment.
Incidentally, the Altar Call Ending of the flick is the Christianese corundrum “If you see somebody badly injured and dying, do you try to save their life or Save Their Soul (hint hint)?” And makes the Approved Christianese choice, begging the question “Why can’t you do both?”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
harley wrote:
Lack of empathy is one of the major problems demonstrated by people in legalistic systems and especially by authoritarian leaders. And the “spiritual DNA” in Word of Faith teachings inherently leads to having no compassion for those who are afflicted by suffering. How much less Christlike can one get than having no compassion … other than having no conscience?
The name-it-and-claim-it heresy assumes that all effects of the Fall are eradicated, so if we have illness, “besetting sins,” any kind of grievous suffering or brokenness, it *must* be because we just don’t believe God at His Word literally enough or hard enough or long enough. Easier to fake wellness than to jump over the impossible high bar they set for everyone.
And I think this goes to what Gram3 was commenting on with marriage being seen as the cure to any/all forms of sexual lust — another form of “magical thinking” with “fix-it formulas.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
I think the episode title is “The Naked Time”.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
This is part of the message I got from the movie War Room this past weekend.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
It is sad that the most dangerous places can be churches.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Dave A A:
I wrote this hastily, as well, and ended up gossiping I don’t know what the Kirk’s reasons for disciplining the victim were, and for all I know they’ve already apologized. Likely it’s all been clarified on the Mablog, if I do some research.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Mae:
Some of these movies are shown on TBN, so you can see them for free.
TBN has aired “Fireproof” many times, as well as “Courageous” (for the first time about a week or two ago), and “Facing the Giants” (or whatever the football one is called).
TBN almost always premieres these on Sunday nights, but after they’ve premiered, they will sometimes air on them at other times of the week.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dave A A wrote:
Not only that, but in on one page I read that quoted her, she said her sexual abuse by the older guy was characterized by the church as being “fornication.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
You should have asked the dentist for some anesthetic or laughing gas while out in the waiting room to dull the pain of having to watch the movie.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Gram3:
I’m just curious what chapter and verse they’ve found that promises us New testament folks physical healing if we just __________. I keep seeing all this talk of redemption and repentance and forgiveness, but what do these actually have to do with salvation from the physical thorns in the flesh? I know some get around that by claiming addictions, etc are spiritual, but I’ve seen folks that clearly believe in the existence of mental health championing this Forgiveness™ talk.
I don’t understand.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Janeway laying some holy wood on this guy.
https://twitter.com/XianJaneway/status/641407364986486784
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
GovPappy wrote:
Yeah, Dee’s correct. I saw it most clearly when I read the brou-haha over Wilson’s partially-plagiarized booklet on slavery. What struck me was how he’d write one thing, then later write something that wasn’t quite contradictory but could be construed so.
By doing that, some young men are convinced that he is deeply nuanced, but nah, he’s merely playing both sides against the middle.
In my experience, people who play this game usually hold to the most extreme view, but are being “diplomatic” to garner political influence. :eyeroll:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Daisy:
Thanks for the tip. I’ll pass on it as I never watch TBN, or inspirational TV. Years ago, I would sometimes watch the PTL Club…fascinating in a bizarre way. I didn’t know whether to break out the popcorn, or a box of tissues.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
I agree that Wilson’s stuff makes the 9 Marks stuff look tame. And he has influence across this country. If I am not mistaken logos, which does a lot of home school publishing, is run by his outfit. On the other hand, since the 9 Marks, guys are so concerned about protecting the name of the church, where are they when Wilson does what he does? Where are they when he makes his outrageous comments? Where are Piper, De Young, etc.?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
Always the woman’s fault.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken wrote:
Wilson doesn’t seem to be enchanted by money as much as by fame, esp the infamous sort. People pay into that too, offering up their intellectual integrity in return for the illusion of belonging to a spiritual elite.
It’s all hogwash, but whatever one chooses, at least practice consistency. Unfortunately Douglas Wilson can’t even do that.
But yeah, like you, I’d rather be entertained by an a** than put to sleep by a bore.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
They can’t ever fail because they’ve devoted their lives to channeling the very words of God Himself. If God turns out to be wrong….well that’s impossible! 😉
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
It is interesting how 9Marks et al is, and has been quite about DW all these years… Not like DW hides what He says…. Especially the Southern Slave “reconstruction”. I would think that 9Marks et al would try to stay away from the racial quicksand that DW is spewing..
Will M wrote:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I have, however, run across a high standard in a community of Tolkien fanfic writers, some of them exploring difficult moral issues with well-crafted writing skill.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Will M wrote:
He espouses patriarchy, the biblical (TM) get-out-of-jail card.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Here’s what annoys me about the whole “we’re all just miserable sinners” shtick (DW blog post today). Paul writes over and over about “putting aside” the old self, the old nature is dead and buried with Christ, “put on” the “newness of life”, “put on” the likeness of Christ, and on and on.
Redeemed sinners are NOT allowed the “we’re just all are in need of grace” excuse for their rotten behavior. You HAVE grace…start acting like it.
~~~~
Sermon done. And if you are male, I apologize for preaching at you. 😉
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
GovPappy wrote:
Well, I think the Word Faith or Word of Faith people use it as their bait. In the case of SBC pastors defending Wilson, I think they are misapplying the effects of the Resurrection. And the Ascension, for that matter. Jared Moore, for example, should know that there is some “not yet” in any eschatological view. I don’t think he is some kind of weird full preterist who thinks Jesus has already returned and we are living in the Kingdom. So why is he so blind to the incoherence of his appeal to the Resurrection? I think he has become so accustomed to reacting first and never getting around to exegesis. So, I doubt if he could point you to a verse, just like they can’t point to a verse where God ordains Male Authority in Genesis.
They start with what they need to prove, which in this case is that Doug Wilson is not culpable for his Role as spiritual authority. The Jareds of the world want to have it both ways. They can claim the authority when they want it, but when the exercise of their precious authority goes kablooie, as in this instance and in The Village with Karen Hinkcley’s abuse by the ELDERS, then all of a sudden the Spiritual Authority has no responsibility. Win-Win for the guys with the power and Lose-Lose for the pewpeons.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Gram3:
The abuse of Karen Hinkley by the ELDERS of The Village. Bears repeating with proper spelling.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Will M:
Logos is their proprietary Christian school brand. However, people should be aware that they are involved in many Christian schools. People need to listen and be aware of the leanings of the teachers and administrators.
I can almost guarantee that there will be total silence from the top tier of the Gospel Glitterati because they have gone all in for Patriarchy. See Russell Moore’s claims about Complementarian being too tame. See John Piper’s endorsement of Wilson at Desiring God. The top tier have made Patriarchy a gospel essential, for all practical purposes.
The second tier guys who want to advance will go to the mattresses about this and will be throwing all kinds of ridiculously transparent chaff. Again, their System has been exposed as a fraud. They claim to protect women and children, yet the women and children are repeatedly sacrificed on the altar of the System of Authoritarianism in general and, more specifically, Patriarchy.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Jeffrey Chalmers:
Thabiti Anyabwile addressed Wilson’s views, but IMO Wilson escaped from that exchange. It was not clear at all to me what Thabiti’s purpose was. It is ironic, IMO, that a man who has experienced discrimination as a black man would want to uphold such a disgusting view of women. It makes no sense.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
Gram3 wrote:
Yes! My thoughts exactly. 9M, TGC, and these guys all seem to want to have all the authority, whether it’s denominational for TGC/9M or local church/college/etc for Dougy W, but want to take a step back and make statements about “regrettable happenings but we don’t feel it Gospel™ wise to step into local blah blah blah” when doctrine/protocol is followed and it hurts people. All the perks, none of the responsibility and ownership.
And there’s the nice little niche they’ve carved out. They can keep a safe distance, theorize, pontificate, rant about haters and bloggers – all the while keeping a squeaky clean public image, while the less circumspect apply their ideals at the local level and hurt people directly. Then local church autonomy takes over.
Wilson is just more brash and arrogant about his role in it all. He’s the less nice version.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ GovPappy:
How in the heck did that even happen….
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ muzjik:
Also this! It feels like a slap in the face to God to keep harping on how miserable we all are before him. He created us, with talents, we’re “fearfully and wonderfully made”! Sure, a healthy balance of realizing where we came from and what we’re capable of as sinners is necessary. But this groveling and constant focus on believers–Christ’s brothers and sisters–as miserable dumb sheep? How is that healthy?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
numo wrote:
You’re not alone numes. In the Olam Ha-Ba (Jewish version of the afterlife) I’d like to learn how to build a ship that can fold space and get as far away from them and their ‘heaven’ as possible.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Former CLC’er:
I made the mistake of going to that film in theaters to see if it was any good…only to find that the whole thing was basically a big setup for a lame texting gimmick. Esp. cheesy, even by Christian cheese standards, IMO.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Muff Potter wrote:
Can I join you? 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
It does to me.
No matter how low I am in the heap, there’s always someone even lower that I can stomp on.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
Road Apples?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Muff Potter:
The World to Come, no? I like your space-folding idea very much.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.” Matthew 23:15
“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” John 8:44
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
May wrote:
I’m neither a defender nor an adversary of Douglas Wilson.
He has written some good stuff – his review of The God Delusion comes to mind. I hadn’t understood the principled opposition to Obamacare before reading Wilson’s critique of it. Even his complementarianism is more nuanced than his detractors sometimes think, for example, that wifely submission is not unconditional (Abigail and Nabal).
On the other hand, I didn’t like his refusal to answer a question from a UK commenter as to how he could ever afford to pay for his baby’s treatment in intensive care for weeks (huge cost) on his low salary if he were sent the bill by the state. Met with silence. Wilson is also right to see envy in those who want to restribute wealth, but then the rich would say that wouldn’t they! Bit naive to think otherwise. And it’s not a ‘gospel’ issue except in the sense that both envy and greed are sins that need to be forgiven and forsaken.
I saw Tim Bayly’s response to this issue. Sheer horror that the criticism of a man holding an official teaching position in the church could come from women. This so spectacularly misses the point words fail me. Doesn’t happen often. They were not ‘teaching or exercising authority’ over men in a local church, so what’s the problem. The point is whether the criticisms are justified, not who made them. In my understanding of the NT, the Holy Spirit has been poured out on all flesh, both men and women shall prophesy, and to one is given in the Spirit a word of knowledge or distinguishing of spirits or prophecy …; and with regard to the latter this gift can be used by God to reveal the sins of someone in the congregation. The gifts are not just given to the men.
Never admit any charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three male witnesses …
If such criticism “isn’t women’s work” according to God’s Order of Creation (interesting use of capitals here) and the Word of God, where are the men, the pastors and elders? What are they doing about it?
Now if Tim Bayly had said the criticism of Wilson was coming from those who are prejudiced against him, he could make a case for this. Some of it clearly is. That was my point in saying it appears Wilson can never get anything right in the eyes of his detractors, and as a consequence, he won’t listen to them. This is just as bad as Tim’s prejudice against women.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
__
“Things Are Hopping In Moscow?”
hmmm…
A “sane world with clear-headed adults making decisions”?
huh?
…could have fooled me.
(…kinda like tossing a live grenade in a hurricane, huh?) 🙁
What?
There’s a pedophile in the church,
His brain is teaming with research,
Take a long vacation,
Let your children play,
If ya give this man a pew
Sweet memory will die…
Rider of the religious storm..?[1]*
(sadface)
Sopy
__
[1] *parody adaptation; Jim Morrison, The Doors, “Riders Of The Storm”;
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7QHQRGZ78Xs
;~)
—
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Journalist and long-time Scientology critic Tony Ortega has just published “The Unbreakable Miss Lovely”, the story of Paulette Cooper, one of the most famous targets of Co$ retaliation. Paulette’s own critical book about Hubbard’s cult (published in the 70’s) and her support of its victims absolutely incensed Hubbard. He ordered against her some of the most vicious plots and schemes that the Guardian’s Office ever committed.
And Tony discovered in the course of researching his book that the Office of Special Affairs (the GO’s current name) is still harassing and stalking Paulette 40 years later. “Once an enemy, always an enemy” indeed.
I am so, so, so glad that Wilson doesn’t have the power to do this on the scale that Hubbard did. Although, based on his attitude and his treatment of Natalie Rose, I’ve little doubt that if he could, he would.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Tina wrote:
Actually, I remember that term best from the TV show “The Dukes of Hazzard”. Sheriff Rosco used it (as a term of endearment) towards his boss and brother-in-law J.D. Hogg. Hogg’s wife did too, as I remember. 🙂
Ah, nostalgia… Such a nice break from this whole disgusting affair.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
mirele wrote:
You’re still there, Mirele. I don’t think they’ll delete the comments of critics, unless they’re seriously bad. After all, they need some examples of “screeching and howling”, so that their fellow patrio-centrists and Douggie lovers know what they’re talking about. 😉
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
GovPappy wrote:
Thanks, Brother. I was near throwing up when I read about how he treated the abuse victim, & then realized the abuser was able to abuse again because DW intervened.
HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE TO BE ABUSED DUE TO DW’S NEGLIGENCE BEFORE THE CHURCH CRIES OUT FOR JUSTICE?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Reminiscing about Daisy Duke, are we? …
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The idea that Wilson *had to* officiate the marriage or he would be too authoritarian is such nonsense. Pastors are forever turning couples down when they don’t think it meets their standards.
Ask him to marry a divorced person to a virgin.
Ask him to marry a Catholic to a church member.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Beakerj wrote:
Prayers from here, as well. I feel that way about my cats. They give me such joy, just being around the house.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Greaves wrote:
Say what?!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Operation Freakout.
GO becomes OSA just like ChEKA becomes OGPU becomes NKVD becomes KGB becomes FSB…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lane Roberts wrote:
Lane, it’s because the churches involved do absolutely nothing to change their toxic environments and, in fact, try to keep it hidden. It is silence in the face of the actions of Doug Wilson and his ilk that is sinful.
Doug Wilson’s Chuch of Pedophilia has harbored two unrepentant pedophiles and advocated to the courts on their behalf, all the while IGNORING the victims. So apparently it’s open season for pedophiles on the children of Doug Wilson’s ‘church’.
And calling out this despicable behavior is ‘witch hunting’? You’ve got to be kidding.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“Wilson is also right to see envy in those who want to restribute wealth”
I think this is a ludicrous argument, if you follow this to the logical conclusion then you always have to face up against anyone who wants to better their lot – it’s the same argument as those who used to say that slaves need to be content and to be discontent was a sin.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Looks like Tim Bayly was a bit unnerved by the blowback he was getting. He took down his post supporting Wilson and says he will post more about it later.
http://baylyblog.com/blog/2015/09/concerning-open-letter-session-christ-church-moscow-retraction
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Leila wrote:
Wow. I’m pretty sure it wasn’t something *I* said that provoked this action. Got to wonder what’s going on in the background.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Lane Roberts:
Your entire comment comes across with lack of compassion and empathy toward those who have been harmed by Christian leaders. This article is about a new issue concerning a pedophile in a church. Have you read the article and supporting I formation?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Leila wrote:
Kudos to him for retracting, on the other hand, why couldn’t he wait to write anything until he had all of the facts? What new could he have learned that wasn’t out there before? Makes you wonder how many times this has happened in the past in which there wasn’t a subsequent retraction.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
mirele wrote:
Perhaps he actually read many of the primary documents instead of just taking Wilson’s word for it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Leila wrote:
I wonder if the evidence at Moscowid dot net had anything to do with it. It’s hard to argue against facts. However, they still “continue to have deep respect for Christ Church’s pastors and elders . . .”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Leila wrote:
Hmm, I wondered about that. I posted a comment of my own on that article, in which Tim Bayly and his wife lauded Wilson’s open letter. A short while after posting, I refreshed the page and was denied access. Didn’t realize it was taken down entirely — I figured Bayly had just blocked me.
Let’s see if he gives us any explanation.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken wrote:
I don’t think you understand what Doug Wilson is about. Just because he wrote a book against an atheist or against atheism is not a pass for all of the other theological and pastoral garbage he creates. He is training how many young men and women in this man-made doctrinal system? IMO he is a false teacher as the Bible describes them and should be called out and not defended on any count. You may not believe you are defending him, but believe me you are. This is not just about patriarchy, and even if it were, the question is whether what he has done is good and right to do, regardless of the motivations of his critics. Is the criticism true or not? We must not make truth a matter of persons whether the person we are making it about is the subject or the critic. Read up on the Federal Vision heresy.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
andrew wrote:
That’s a big part of the problem. These guys are so insular within their own Boyz Club that coming to each others’ defense is a reflex action regardless of what the other has done or said. The only times they back off from their support is when the watchbloggers put their feet to the fire and don’t accept the lame defenses of their clubmember’s appalling actions. Even then, they don’t criticize a fellow member of the club, they just go silent.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I’m ashamed to admit this but years ago I actually admired Doug Wilson. That was before I knew much about his horrible reputation in his hometown. Now I see Doug Wilson as a huge embarrassment to the body of Christ. “For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.” Romans 2:24 Better the church expose and rid themselves of men like him than their churches cover up for them. Doug Wilson’s church sounds like a cult.
Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
Thanks for that dougsplotch link. Very disturbing. In digging in a little deeper to Doug Wilson’s history I came across another related site:
http://rc-sproul-jr.blogspot.com/
It’s mostly about R. C. Sproul, Jr. Birds of a feather and all that. Some very troubling revelations there about Doug Wilson too. Apparently the two of them are very tight. Well worth digging through.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Doug Wilson posted the following yesterday in a “Blog and Mablog” article “Clean Rain.” His blog site tag-line is “Theology that bites back.” Directed evidently at watchbloggers and multiple others who disagree with his brand, he offers a following twist of theology that bites back:
““And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely” (Rev. 22:17).
Have you molested children? Then come. Have you vilified repentant pedophiles? Come. Have you stolen money? Come. Are you a slave to the bottle? Come. Do you despise drunks? Come. Do you hate people who preach the gospel? Come. Does racial animosity have you by the throat? Then come. Do you sell the message of grace for ready money? Come. Do you hate the idea of coming? Then come.”
If you grunt and strain enough, you can make selected Bible passages fit through your theological grid. But God will have the last word.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Ken:
Have you read his book on slavery? He thinks it was a good thing. He is a white supremacist, and his “church” is a cult. Truly. This is not intended as a slam against you, Ken, but, as Grsm3 just suggested, reading up on Federal Vision is a must in this case. Without the background, it is very hsrd to get a good fix on just how controlling and unethical he is.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Leila wrote:
Bayly stated that what he posted was wrong and therefore took it down. I think he should keep it up and then tell why it is wrong.
So often supporters caution us that we need to wait because we don’t know the whole story. This caution should apply to supporters also.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Max:
Regarding my last post about Wilson’s blog post, the reverend apparently doesn’t know what to do with them when they come! Responsible watchblogs would not vilify repentant anybodies, if the fruit of repentance was evident.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Just saw this very insightful comment at SSB which captures what I have observed for so many years from these men.
http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/09/08/pastor-doug-wilson-has-been-involved-in-another-disturbing-pedophile-case-jamin-wight/comment-page-1/#comment-292522
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
numo wrote:
I’m still trying to understand what Wilson is about. I don’t know if you mean this follows from his idea that slavery was “good” or if the white supremacist label is derived from other supporting details. If the latter can you articulate some of it? Please take this not as a challenge but a request for information.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bill M wrote:
If the latter can you articulate some of it? Please take this not as a challenge but a request for information.
You can read the pamphlet ‘Southern Slavery as it Was’ which was authored by him, but let’s take a choice quote:
“Slavery as it existed in the South was not an adversarial relationship with pervasive racial animosity. Because of its dominantly patriarchal character, it was a relationship based upon mutual affection and confidence. There has never been a multi-racial society which has existed with such mutual intimacy and harmony in the history of the world. “
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken wrote:
Good point.
There is some sort of brain adjustment among those immersed in this movement. I remember hearing Tim Bayly on two occasions in person, both all-day affairs. There might have been more times, but I remember two clearly. The first time, I was still under the spell and not in my right mind. I remember taking reams of notes (I always take reams of notes anyhow) and not being able to write fast enough to get it all down. It was great stuff, and I bought the recordings of the sessions to listen to at a later time.
The second time was near the end of our time in our former church. I had been disillusioned for over a year, reading survivor accounts, fighting to keep my family from disintegrating, all the while trying to keep the day-to-day running of a home from falling completely apart. Tim Bayly hadn’t changed. His speaking style was the same. His message was the same, I’m sure. But this time, I wasn’t swallowing everything whole. He made a statement that startled me, and I wrote it down, to check it against the Bible later. He made another statement that struck me as wrong, and another, and another… I didn’t quite have reams of notes from those sessions, but I had several pages of questionable opinion presented as gospel truth.
I guess my long-hibernating capacity for discernment was finally waking up.
In short, the people sitting under the teaching of men like Tim Bayly and Doug Wilson are swallowing this stuff whole, not chewing, not tasting. It’s like the way my dog eats spoiled meat. She doesn’t seem to notice it’s “off” but just gulps it down. It doesn’t seem to hurt her, which is why she gets any leftovers that don’t pass the sniff test. I’ve eaten bad food before — disguised in a flavorful sauce or coating. Of course, it’s poison for me. I remember one of those times, I was chewing and got a burst of bad… Even though what I had been eating had tasted delicious, I had to stop at that point. I hope this word picture makes sense.
Well, thank you for this. You have always been clear that, despite your firm stand on submission (which I have not been able to see in person in your life, obviously, but in my experience has been an insistence on subordination while prettying it up in all sorts of bible lace and frills), women can and are used of God, and not just to bear arrows for their husband’s quiver. In our old church there was a lot of lip-service given to the value and contribution of women in building the Kingdom, but in practice… it got so bad that a woman with university-level musical training and experience couldn’t even direct a group of singers. Nope. Had to be one of the young men. And women’s Bible study devolved from studying the scriptures directly, and discussing them, to using materials approved by the elders, overseen by an elder’s wife. (I have no bone to pick with “women’s Bible study” or “men’s Bible study” in general — there are issues and prayers that wouldn’t be spoken in a mixed group. It doesn’t have to be a matter of “separate but supposedly equal”.)
Ah, that interesting use of capitals indicates Acceptable Doctrine (or perhaps I mean Doctrine Written [by man] in Stone) on their part. Although, I have seen this concept lampooned quite effectively, to my mind. Like, if man is in charge of woman because he was created first, then why isn’t hyena, say, or meadowlark in charge of man?
Sometimes the Doctrine is formulated when a man (or men) fills in the gaps in scripture, sometimes it takes scripture out of context, sometimes it grabs onto scripture and elevates it above all other scripture. (Titus 2 comes to mind here.)
But it is Doctrine, and therefore it is Stone Tablets and Ten Commandments and all that, and if you “kick against the goads” you are worshiping a Golden Calf and god’s gonna get you. (Try, in one of these Presbyterian bodies, pointing out something in the Westminster Confession or Book of Common Order that doesn’t quite line up with our understanding of scripture. Talk about Holy Cows! — on the other hand, it’s okay if the eldership points something out that they find inconvenient. Fancy that.)
That is part of my problem. I’m almost afraid to listen to, or read, Wilson at present, for fear I won’t be able to separate the chaff from the wheat. Someone in our household was listening to a sermon (some weeks ago) of Wilson’s that was actually quite eloquent and beautifully evocative.
The thing is, I have bitten down, and tasted the horrible spoiled meat in the rich sauce. I’m unwilling to taste that dish again. (Unlike the real-life scenario, where I was already swallowing, and thought that odd, horrible-but-quickly-gone taste was some sort of anomaly, until a few bites later it happened again.)
Not all the meat in the dish is spoiled, but there is poison hidden amongst the choice bits for those who partake.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Yes. It’s a good thing, to be able to be anonymous on these boards…
When I first signed up, I gave a valid but squirrelly email address, because the paranoia was so strong. I was afraid of these men. I was very careful, in the beginning, not to give any personal or anecdotal evidence. I have been a little less careful lately, though I am still not bold enough to go all out and post under my own name. It doesn’t make my pain any less real, to post under a pseudonym, even though it make my testimony unreliable, even false in their eyes.
I am so grateful for those like the Deebs, who are able to stand up for others, publicly. Maybe someday I’ll have that strength.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Greaves wrote:
Good points. You articulated clearly what I was thinking. I remember an elder who was forced to step down because his son was dating a Mormon! I bet that wedding would never have taken place in our old church.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
refugee wrote:
Mainline Christianity has not yet awakened to the fact that there is a spiritual battle for the mind raging in 21st century church. Every demon and his theology has infiltrated the ranks, some dressed as shepherds. If they can win the battle of the mind through stealth, deception, manipulation, intimidation, and indoctrination, they have you exactly where they want you.
refugee wrote:
Indoctrination can be a subtle delivery of half-truth mixed with truth. After awhile, a little leaven leavens the whole lump. The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bill M wrote:
You ca still see the original here:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rP04NKGOR_4J:baylyblog.com/blog/2015/09/christ-churchs-open-letter-pastorally-wise+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
JeffT wrote:
What is worse to me, as a former parent of young children (they grow up, eventually), is that the parents of young children in the church were not informed for months!
That is unconscionably irresponsible.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Chris S:
So we must conclude that Wilson recommends “measured and limited” death for child molesters— rather than excessive death.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
Ah, I have learned so much from “brian” and his comments. At first I found them difficult to read, because of the many disclaimer-sounding phrases thrown in, but once I caught on to his style of expression, I understood, and really appreciate the points he makes.
Bless you, brian, if you are reading here. Thank you for helping me to find clarity in my struggle to win free of the brainwashing.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken wrote:
Exactly. Which also explains why and how women are not more prone to deception than men are.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dave A A wrote:
No, only for those child molesters who are not Pastor’s Court Favorites.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Greaves wrote:
Well then, I’m hosed.
I’m over 40, still a virgin, and if or when I finally marry, I doubt it will be to another virgin. I’ll either end up with a divorced guy or a widower.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
In Intelligence Warfare, you pipeline Disinformation to an enemy by first building your credibility with minor true information. Once you have established yourself as a reliable source/informant, you then introduce PLAUSIBLE false information — nothing too blatant — as the deception. And if it’s a really high-value, war-winning opportunity, you then go all-or-nothing with the Big Lie. (Note that you can only do the last ONCE, as it will blow your credibility. But if it wins the war, who cares?)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
JeffT wrote:
Very same thing is true of abusive work places.
I was harassed at one full time job. I then read many books on the topic to understand why it happened to me, and what happened.
You might be surprised at how much toxic work places have in common with toxic, abusive churches. Both victim-blame and protect the abusers, for one thing. That was one of several things I learned from reading books about workplace abuse.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Chris S wrote:
oh golly gee. (I really, really, want to say something offensive.)
I had the “privilege” of hearing Wilson and Wilkins teach in person about this stuff. Did you know that the slaves were actually better off as slaves than they would have been in the jungles of Dark Africa? They were cared for like children. They were introduced to the Gospel. Why, scads of slaveholder and slave accounts exist that talk about how the slaves were like family members, how they loved their owners and the children of their owners, and how they were well loved in return.
(Isn’t “loving well” one of the catch phrases of the YRR?)
It was all new and fascinating stuff, information I’d never heard, and exciting because we thought we were getting the real history that had been suppressed (you know, that proverb about history being written by the victors?).
Wilkins put out for homeschool consumption his own American history lecture series: America: the First 350 Years. It presents his own version of American history from the viewpoint being discussed here. I just checked and a cassette version is still available on Amazon, if you are a scholar and are interested in studying more of this aberration. (http://www.amazon.com/America-The-first-350-years/dp/B00072F2M2)
I used to own this set, but it was thrown in the trash with the rest of the unburnable materials when we cleaned house.
Because Patriarchy is the be-all and end-all of human existence, you know.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
The Kirk(TM) Can Do No Wrong.
Enemy of my Enemy is My Friend.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
HUG, you have just described the strategy employed by SBC’s reformed elite in their Calvinization of the largest non-Calvinist denomination in America. Once a “quiet revolution”, they are now well-established and in-your-face.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bill M wrote:
Despite these teachers’ disdain for Darwin, their teachings on slavery and Western expansion (an aspect of Dominionism, maybe?) draw heavily on Darwin’s idea that the white race is the zenith of evolution, with the other races falling somewhere below them. Read their favored history books, where native peoples are “savages” or listen to them expound on the superiority of slavery to leaving those poor, unenlightened Africans in their original state. Western (christian) Civilization is the gem of history, and every other culture pales beside its accomplishments and cultural contributions.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
That’s the afterlife. In the meantime, in the here and now, there are consequences for one’s actions, and precautions people need to take, like, I don’t know,
Not allowing pedophiles have access to children?, not minimizing the awfulness of pedophilia? and making excuses for pedos -and especially not under the guise of “but all deserve grace and all have sinned” theology?
Would Doug Wilson really allow a known pedophile to ‘Come, come into my home and have unrestricted and unsupervised time with my grandchildren.’ (I would hope not.)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken wrote:
Not from what I’ve seen, no.
This is the same guy who teaches women are to be penetrated, conquered, be passive, etc, in the bedroom – sounds very rapey.
Wilson and his wife also, from my understanding, advocate a very narrow view of women, that women should only engage in 1950s American era of housewivery, such as bake cookies, or that should be their greatest pursuit in life.
That Wilson may allow his daughters to publish the occasional book under his printing label doesn’t change the fact that he and his wife have pushed this sexist stuff, they at least teach this stuff to other women.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Leila wrote:
This was well stated, actually:
We do not want to cause [the pastors, elders, and congregation of Christ Church] any pain, but in the particular instance of Steven Sitler, we are afraid our prior statement has rightly been interpreted as the endorsement of a particular approach in pastoral care of child sexual abusers that we do not, in fact, support.
That’s the problem I have with Tim Bayly! He can come off as so wise and reasonable, loving and trustworthy, caring and concerned; but there is terrible, destructive error mixed in with his gospel truth.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Leila wrote:
p.s. I did not feel strong enough the other day to read this blog post. Is there a version of it still available somewhere, a screenshot or something?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“Now if Tim Bayly had said the criticism of Wilson was coming from those who are prejudiced against him, he could make a case for this. Some of it clearly is. That was my point in saying it appears Wilson can never get anything right in the eyes of his detractors, and as a consequence, he won’t listen to them.”
Again, I think this is a somewhat ludicrous position – and to understand why you need to go back a decade or so, look at Wilson’s history – while he is clearly gifted in some ways there’s a clear pattern of being unable to work under anyone elses leadership – which is he has his OWN printing press, his OWN home schooling movement, his OWN denomination (with an associated idiosyncratic set of beliefs. Furthermore he seems to frequently stir up controversy for no good reason – often in church bodies outside his own – and the revel in the resulting publicity.
In this particular case aspects of his behaviour are clearly wrong – yet he prefers to double down rather than admit anything – again a characteristic of his throughout the FV controversy.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
refugee wrote:
Never mind, found it. Thanks!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Gram3:
I don’t know a lot about Doug Wilson what I do think is that the reason why he is supported is for 2 reasons.
1. John Piper supports him
2. He has debated Christopher Hitchens. Given my faith crisis and what I endured that is what I am most familiar with about DW.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ refugee:
It flows from the presupposition that culture is determined by genetics. I agree with Thabiti Anyabwile that race is not the issue but rather culture. There are cultures which promote human flourishing better than other cultures, and the same is true of certain subcultures within particular cultures. But culture is not the same thing as race. Behavior is not a product of genetics whether we are talking about gender or “race” IMO, but that belief “justifies” a lot of bad things.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
refugee wrote:
Officers of Christ’s church make “precipitous” statements. Women who speak out against what Bayly supported in his now disappeared post are harpies, Jezebels, rebellious, deceived, etc. Being an “officer in Christ’s church” is an even more plenary indulgence than being male in their world.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Eagle:
I think this is merely one instance of a much larger problem in which Ken participates. That is thinking reflexively based on a particular position which a particular person holds, and that reflexive thinking results in tribal behavior. The YRR guys who slobber at every word that proceeds from the mouth of Piper will ignore the multiple insults to the Gospel that Wilson commits because Wilson affirms patriarchy and ecclesiastical authority, and he put on the Evangelical jersey and went forth into battle against Christopher Hitchens. This is rah-rah Texas high school football thinking. My team can do no wrong. What it betrays, however, is a deep unconcern about what the Gospel really is, despite all the gospel language tossed around. Wilson has a distinctly un-Reformed soteriology, yet they give him a pass because Authority is their highest value and highest doctrine.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
Hah. And the hyper-reformed subculture we lived in up until recently would have prided themselves on promoting truth, beauty, and goodness (human flourishing, if you will), when what they were really best at was stifling and quenching.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
refugee wrote:
TV Tropes’ “People’s Republic of Tyranny”:
The more adjectives about Democracy there are in a country’s official name, the nastier a dictatorship it is.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
Traitors, Thought-Criminals, Goldsteinists, Cow-Headed Monsters…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
__
“Connecting Da Religios Dotz?”
hmmm…
Do these ‘Reformed’ men worshiping at da altar of the Westminster Confession, or Calvin’s ICR, or some other doctrinal ‘colline de mourir sur’ ?
Is this the source of their ‘erreur morale’ ?
What?
…if so, then why will treating the symptoms cure the patient?
-gump-
(sadface)
ATB
Sopy
—
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
refugee wrote:
Actually, that wasn’t Darwin. Darwin himself was an abolitionist, and while he thought (like all Victorians) that the white race was the zenith, descent from common ancestry meant that non-whites were NOT subhumans or animals — at least no more than whites were (again, common descent).
The White Race as the Zenith of Evolution was called Scientific Racism, and while it did claim Darwin’s works as justification, its predecessors quoted the Bible chapter-and-verse (Curse of Ham and all that). “Men of Sin” will glom onto any Cosmic-level Authority — Bible or Evolution — to justify what they wanted to do anyway. Steven Jay Gould wrote a lot of essays on the subject, about how bad science was used to prop up White Supremacy, sometimes with incredible convolutions of logic. Check out some of his essay collections sometime; you should be able to find them at a lot of used bookstores.
What IS 100% Darwinian is Quiverfull, i.e. “Outbreed the Heathen”. Darwin’s original definition of “Survival of the Fittest” meant reproductive success over long periods of time; those organisms able to produce more surviving descendants will end up dominating the gene pool, increasing their percentage with each generation.
P.S. According to Gould, Darwin himself did NOT like the term “Evolution”, as it already had secondary meanings not only of LINEAR Progress but Linear UPWARD Progression. (“The Victorians thought history ended well — because it ended with the Victorians.” — Chesterton) Darwin preferred the term “Descent with Modification”, implying no intrinsic directionality.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
That’s actually classic Intelligence Warfare, the Spy-vs-Spy game of the Cold War.
What you describe is actually a closely-related phenomenon dating from the early Cold War, when Stalin rolled over Eastern Europe. It was called “Salami Tactics”, always pusig for just one more teeny-tiny slice of salami until one day before anyone noticed, the Russian bear had eaten it all. And them. “URRA STALINO!”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
refugee wrote:
More generically, the Great Chain of Being, Who Holds The Whip and Who Feels The Whip, from God at the very top all the way down. Boots on faces, from top to bottom; everybody stamp harder. Master over Slave, Man over Woman, Pastor over Pewpeon.
“The only goal of Power is POWER. And POWER consists of inflicting maximum suffering among the Powerless.”
— Comrade O’Brian, Inner Party, Airstrip One, Oceania, Nineteen Eighty-Four
Just because you can.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Interesting and very recent ruling from the Idaho Supreme Court that allows child sexual abuse victims in their state to sue when other statutes of limitations have expired:
http://www.clearwatertribune.com/news/online_only_news/idaho-supreme-court-rules-survivors-of-boy-scout-and-mormon/article_45674bbe-5035-11e5-83c1-674476584a73.html
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“He has debated Christopher Hitchens. Given my faith crisis and what I endured that is what I am most familiar with about DW.”
I think that DW can be quite personable at times – and this is what comes strongest in the Chris Hitchens video, which makes the impact of the debate many times stronger of course.
In reality, DW leans heavily on pre-suppositional apologetics, something I’m no longer particular enamored with – it’s essentially a heavy dose of question begging and circular reasoning.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
__
“Addicted to Calvin?” [1]*
hmmm…
John Calvin without historical dispute, murdered people; which Apostle was he imitating?
huh?
What ‘golden rule’ was he following?
What?
Who is his followers or disciples imitating?
hmmm…
Is this the ‘source’ of the 501(c)3 ‘abuse’ (r) problem infesting the local church today?
(sadface)
Might as well face it, you’re addicted to John Calvin?
Sopy
__
[1] *
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rPwLjhjJ5xg
;~)
—
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
refugee wrote:
Thanks for several replies. I’d put this in the category of European cultural supremacy.
To be clear, the attempt to justify the injustice of slavery by creating a false narrative of the antebellum South, minimizing murder and disruption of so many lives, and to justify it because some may now have more material opportunity displays a depraved view of existence not in keeping with Christ. There is a lack of compassion for the suffering of others.
As bad as this is, white supremacists are in another class of nuts cases. I was wondering if there is direct espousal of the superiority of the white race.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
I had read the original post. At the time of retraction though the most honest and humble thing he could do is leave it up as a testimony to how wrong he could be and not try to scrub the record. Some folks I have run into show a false humility by telling small stories of being wrong but usually in the long past. Those with true humility aren’t so fastidious on keeping up the appearance of perfection.
That said, second best is to admit wrong. I’ll be interested what he will say was specifically wrong with his original post or if it will be a general CYA type retraction.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
Here’s what I don’t get. Doug quotes, but not discusses, this verse: “But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.”
In KJV, but not the other translations, it looks to me in some places that in 1 Cor. Paul is quoting questions that the church had for him, or rules that they wanted to run by him, and answering. In this case, “if y’all want to fight about this, fine, but nobody else is doing this.” Later, in 1 Cor. 14, is the thing about women being silent in church, as the law says (What law? We have the Torah. Where does the law say one iota about women being silent in church?) KJV says: ” What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?” (and by “you” it’s clear that he is talking to men, as he is in the rest of this letter and all of his other writings.) Jesus talked to Mary and refused to send her to the kitchen as Martha wanted. He appeared first to women when he was resurrected. Clearly, the word of God did not come only to men. So there’s no reason for women to have to be silent. He goes on about everybody needing to prophesy and so forth.
Am I wrong here? How come the KJV is so different from the other translations?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bill M wrote:
Remember at the time the Europeans were the highest-tech civilization and were in the middle of a century-long winning streak.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“I believe that anonymity is justifiable in many circumstances in order to get information out without any undo negative influence or payback by power-brokers in the Gospel™ Industrial Complex.”
You mean kinda like a DIY witness protection program?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I do not have time to read every comment just now, so please forgive any redundancy by my posting this link to a story that showed up in my twitter feed.
http://m.dnews.com/cps-opening-investigation-into-sitler-family/article_360e7bd2-571b-11e5-a676-e314137be5dd.html?mode=jqm
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy and Max,
Following up on your discussion about how the church should handle pedophiles, here’s an article about a Christian pastor who had to turn in his father a pastor for sexually abusing children at the church they have both pastored. The father is serving a long prison sentence. The son takes a strong stand about the boundaries that churches should have when ministering (separately) to sex offenders.
http://www.post-gazette.com/local/east/2015/03/22/Christian-minister-Jimmy-Hinton-teaches-churches-to-guard-against-pedophiles-like-his-father-John-Wayne-Hinton/stories/201503220056
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Bill M:
I think it’s there. That’s what is pretty much stated in Wilson’s tractates on how wonderful things were before thenwsr, abolition and reconstruction. I’m willing to bet that he has very direct ties to white supremacist groups, though that falls under “things we don’t talk about” – to outsiders, anyway.
I’ll stand by my assertions on this, as well as thd whole megillah being a cult, with Wilson as its leader.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ numo:
Before the war. (Kind of ironic that PBS is running Ken Burns’ Civil War docu this week…)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
” I’m willing to bet that he has very direct ties to white supremacist groups, though that falls under “things we don’t talk about” – to outsiders, anyway.”
His co-author on the ‘Slavery as it was’ pamphlet was Steve Wilkins – also now a pastor in the CREC – and former board member of the League of the South.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
I refer the hon. lady to the first comment on the Bayly’s blog regarding their retraction:
http://baylyblog.com/blog/2015/09/concerning-open-letter-session-christ-church-moscow-retraction#comments
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
numo wrote:
I’ve read a fair bit of Wilson over the years, partly as his constituency is very different from my background. I did read his exchange with Thabiti Anyabwile on the slavery issue. Wilson comes across as a bit of an amateur when it comes to history, but then I am no expert on US history.
I’d be a bit careful these days about using the world cult too often – I used to think of my former shepherding outfit as an ‘evangelical cult’, but as the authentic gospel was taught, and it was the authority/covering system that was claustrophobic, cult was a bit over the top. A bit too man-centered might be more accurate, too much admiration for certain ‘famous’ church leaders. But you could never say they weren’t Christians.
From what I have read of him, Douglas Wilson reminds me of a member of my old Baptist church; you could never tell him anything. He was always in the know, regardless of the subject. He, much to my amusement, even once lectured me on how to approach translating something, which I have been doing as a job for 20 odd years, so I ought to know at least a tiny bit about it. 🙂 Regarding the current topic, if this assessment of Wilson is at all accurate, it is a serious problem if he has been as unwise as people are claiming, because he needs to listen.
I think I part company with him on the millenium, a rather naive application of the NT to the modern economy, and his churchmanship, which appears to be similar to the Anglo-Catholics. Infant baptism makes you a member of the church, which leads to the church becoming the means of salvation rather than faith in Christ.
Regarding the Federal Vision, I have a horrible suspicion this is yet another pet theory held by a group of ministers who think the same. I’m a bit of a Gallio over it: Gallio said to the Jews, “If it were a matter of wrongdoing or vicious crime, I should have reason to bear with you, O Jews; but since it is a matter of questions about words and names and your own law, see to it yourselves; I refuse to be a judge of these things. It could lead to vain discussions that Paul warned against.
I did very briefly look it up, and to understand it would require dredging up all the details of reformed theology most of which I have forgotten, then looking at the FV to see if it ‘comes within the standards of orthodoxy’. There’s mountains on this on the internet, but therein lies the problem. I just can’t get into the nitpicking and intellectualising that reformed theology can become, worrying about keeping sundry secondary standards and who said or believed what over the last 300 years or more. So if FV is false doctrine, it should be exposed and countered, but I could read volumes for months to make a qualified statement on this, and there are more pressing things at hand.
If FV is in effect a denial of the gospel, it is important to refute it; if it is a variant of a variant of a variant within Calvinism with little practical outworking I’m not so bothered by it. It should still be countered, but it’s not Benny Hinn or Joel Osteen.
That’s probably not a very satisfactory answer to your question, but there are areas in doctrinal disputes that I’d rather others carried on! I might yet have a dabble in it, but I don’t think anything resembling it has crossed the Pond.
Incidentally, I don’t, as a rule, take disagreements personally. But it was nice of you to make sure I knew you weren’t being personal.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
Must have really been rough to blow the whistle on his own father.
Double kick-in-the-head when you realize the pastor in question was not only the son of the pedo pastor, but inherited his pulpit & church from Daddy. When have you ever heard of a Pastor Junior(TM) doing something like that?
Here’s the opening four sentences of the article:
Again, successful pedos (like successful sociopaths everywhere) are masters of camouflaging what they really are. Experts at presenting themselves “Transformed into an Angel of Light”.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Thanks! More food for thought, more material for future (ongoing) studies in my re-education process. My previous exposure to Darwin was the standard evolutionary teaching of public school in my earlier years, compounded with AIG books like Darwin’s Plantation. I had forgotten about the whole “christian” view built on Ham’s (Canaan’s) curse, though it rang a bell, so I obviously heard about it at some time in my life.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
My own mother was a believer in eugenics. Hardly Quiverfull (she resented having a large family due to the unreliability of BC available to women during her bearing years), she was in favor of forced sterilization for various reasons (IQ and genetic disorders), and talked about how the intellectuals were limiting the numbers of their offspring, and the “dummies” were going to outbreed them.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lucy Pevensie wrote:
Hmmm. CPS cannot reveal that they are investigating a particular family. They are bound to confidentiality. They could of course communicate with the prosecutor’s office, so perhaps the prosecutor has more leeway on that. I don’t know. I have been wondering about how a judge can hear evidence of danger to the child and there not be a CPS referral (no matter how you interpret that “contact resulting in sexual stimulation,” it is concerning.) I’m glad there is. However, a judge will still have to approve any move CPS makes. The hope would be that it would be a different judge.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ refugee:
Hhm. That sounds like the setting for a movie.
Oh, wait.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzbWXgM0ygU
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bill M wrote:
I understood what you meant. When I posted the cached link, I should have explained that Bayly doesn’t realize that his article didn’t completely disappear, though he wanted it to. I’m sorry I wasn’t clearer.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Mara wrote:
My word.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ refugee:
I take it you’ve never seen this before?
And yes, the whole movie is as insane as the inro.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
refugee wrote:
So were most of the Intellectuals and Right People of the early 20th.
Then this gang of pulp villains and their minions running Germany decided to act on Eugenic Theory and Scientific Racism and see how far they could push it. If it wasn’t for the example of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party, Eugenics and Master Race Theory would still be respectable mainstream science.
This is actually called “The Marching Morons Syndrome” after a particularly-nasty 1951 SF short by C.M.Kornbluth:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marching_Morons
The movie “Idiocracy” is based on Marching Morons, but plays it for laughs.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
refugee wrote:
I would check used bookstores for various essay collections by Steven Jay Gould, such as:
* Ever Since Darwin
* The Panda’s Thumb
* Hen’s Teeth and Horses’ Toes
* The Flamingo’s Smile
* Bully for Brontosaurus
* Eight Little Piggies
etc
Professor Gould had a knack for explaining complex scientific subjects in an easily-understood manner, and wrote on the History of Science as often as he did on Evolution. Including how bad science was used to prop up and justify White Supremacy — as in one of his other books, The Mismeasure of Man.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@Beakerj
“Who defends that child like he deserves?”
EXACTLY!!!
People of Christ Church: Where are you?!!! What are you doing to defend this child?
Time is better spent organizing safety for this child — people being around him every minute of the day, at the very least — than taking issue with those who ARE standing up for the child’s welfare.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ardiak wrote:
BACA – Bikers Against Child Abuse. Because the churches always take the side of the molestor. It took a group of bikers to stand up for the kids.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
a H.U.G.
That’s a great idea. Wonder if there’s a group in Moscow. Probably have to have permission to be at the house though.
Maybe they could meet around the church on Sunday with banners on behalf of the baby.
Do bikers do banners?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Gracegrace:
That is the fundamental problem with Fundamental Vision (pun intended), women are marginalized, discounted, and made to believe they are are only useful for procreation. Sitler’s poor wife believed wholeheartedly that she was a failure for being an old maid at the ripe old age of 23! So she expressed her sorrow to an elder who she described as being “like a grandfather”. This same elder had the inconvenient problem of what to do with that pedophile. 2 sad sick birds, one callous stone. I’m shocked he or Wilson didn’t have a blood relation to spare. Wilson has 16 grandkids between his 3 kids. Surely there’s a spare???
When I got married, several non-believeing family members objected to me promising to submit to my husband. My reply was that my husband was required to love me as Christ loved the church. His burden was definitely greater than mine.
However, I was theologically trained to understand that submission meant in the arena of the spiritual head of the household. Not that I was a doormat. My parents sent me to school to provide life skills so I would be able to take care of myself & potentially children one day should the need arise (losing my spouse, marrying a bum, or never marrying at all). My husband, if/when I found him would be a blessing not an end all be all. And I would be a partner, not a nanny/housekeeper.
Sadly the too many in the homeschooling phenomenon & FV communities, Moscow in particular more closely resemble Warren Jeffs’ Colorado Creek than a healthy community of the Body of Christ.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
cali_mari wrote:
Kids and Grandkids of PASTOR and/or Elders are Too Important to risk with a pedo.
Like JMJ/Christian Monist’s recollection of a church in his youth that had a known pedo on staff; Pastor, Elders, and Pillars of the Church would steer newbies with kids to Pastor Short-Eyes so he’d molest THEIR kids, not MINE.
Pillars of the Church’s kids are Too Important to risk!
Elders’ kids are even more Important!
And PASTOR’s kids are Most Important of all!