Together Again – Mahaney Reinstated at T4G

"T4G 2016: Ten Years Together | http://t4g.org/about/  | Come together for 10 main session talks, 16 breakouts, 3 pre-conference gatherings."

Tweet by C.J. Mahaney

Screen Shot 2014-04-11 at 3.17.31 PM

T4G 2014

It's hard to believe that Together for the Gospel (T4G) 2016 is right around the corner.  And guess who's back in the speaker line-up… C.J. Mahaney.  He has been tweeting about it here and here. Over the summer Mahaney has been making his way back into the public eye with an appearance at WorshipGod2015 and as a member of the Advisory Board of a group called Speak for the Unborn.

The other plenary speakers include:  Ligon Duncan, Albert Mohler, Mark Dever, John Piper, Thabiti Anyabwile, John MacArthur, David Platt, Matt Chandler, and Kevin DeYoung.

We wrote about T4G back in April 2010 — Together for the Gospel — Really? — and it seems not much has changed.  Here is an excerpt from that post:

From all outward appearances, Together for the Gospel is a select group of pastor-types with an extremely narrow theology, which we call “Neo-Calvinism”, which is NOT the same theology as traditional Calvinism.   

Quite frankly, we find the slogan Together for the Gospel to be an arrogant concept. It implies that those who don’t abide by the Calvinista theology are somehow not interpreting or perhaps not contending for the Gospel correctly.

Is this just another forum for larger than the Gospel personalities? Is there ever an attempt to invite obscure people who are contending for the Gospel to speak? In fact, are the only ones speaking just the same old, same old?

The publicity for T4G2016 has just begun.  Check out this screen shot of the initial announcement on T4G's Facebook account.  
Screen Shot 2015-09-09 at 2.03.20 PM

And here is the promo video that is being featured on Facebook.  

It was interesting to read some of the Facebook comments about this video (see screen shots below).  Glad we're not the only ones who think the message in the promo clip is not clear.

Screen Shot 2015-09-09 at 1.49.20 PM

Screen Shot 2015-09-09 at 1.48.55 PM

Screen Shot 2015-09-09 at 1.48.30 PM

We are not at all surprised that the T4G crowd is banging the Reformation drum nearly 500 years after Martin Luther wrote his 95 Theses to his bishop, Albert of Mainz, and defiantly nailed a copy of it to the door of the Wittenberg Castle church (link).  Some would say they are late to the party because Lutherans in Germany began their decade long celebration back in 2008.  A Christian Post article entitled Lutherans Launch Celebration Toward Reformation's 500th Year states:  

Lutherans in Germany and around the world have begun a decade of celebrations, honoring an Augustinian monk who helped spark the Protestant Reformation.

In the years leading up to 2017, Christians will celebrate Martin Luther's legacy while also fostering dialogue with people of other faiths and deep theological conversation.

The "Luther Decade" kicked off in Wittenberg, Germany, on Saturday, which marked 500 years since Luther moved to the city. There he would later post in 1517 his 95 theses to the door of Wittenberg's Castle Church, attacking the Roman Catholic Church's selling of indulgences and ultimately catalyzing the beginning of the Reformation.

"The Luther Decade is very important for Lutherans throughout the world because what began in Germany is clearly now a global movement," said the Rev. Mark S. Hanson, who heads the 68 million-member Lutheran World Federation…

T4G's early bird registration deadline of October 31 was no surprise since it was on this fated day in 1517 that Martin Luther rocked the world.

What we have found surprising is that C.J. Mahaney will be speaking on Creating Joy in your Church, according to the T4G website.  Given what has happened at Covenant Life (CLC), the church he co-founded and pastored for 27 years, and in Sovereign Grace Ministries, we are hard pressed to find any evidence that he is qualified to address this topic.  It is noteworthy that at this point he will not be serving on any panels.  Our guess is they don't want him fielding any questions.

It is also interesting to see Sovereign Grace Ministries being promoted on the T4G website.  (see screen shot below)

http://t4g.org/speakers/

Finally, it was humorous to see the name of this breakout session.  (see screen shot below)

Screen Shot 2015-09-09 at 11.05.53 AM

Come on guys!  We know you didn't conjure up '9Marx'.  Let's give credit where credit is due.  (Addendum 9/11/15) To the best of our knowledge, it was Dave A A who first coined this term in a response to Bobby Jamieson, a contributor to the 9Marks website. Todd Wilhelm picked up on it and continued to use the term to describe his horrendous experience at a 9Marx affiliated church.  We are grateful that Todd — our official TWW hero — came forward to tell his story and that Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman will finally be addressing serious flaws with their 9Marks.  

For those of you who are new to TWW and are not aware of the controversies surrounding C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries, we would recommend reading several of our previous posts, which you can find in this section on the right side of our blog.

Screen Shot 2015-09-09 at 5.44.40 PM

Also, check out the post My, My Dubai: 9 Marks Played Hardball While Lifeway/ David Platt Stretched the Truth, which explains what Todd Wilhelm experienced in his former 9Marx church.

And let's never ever forget what Grant Layman (Mahaney's brother-in-law and a former CLC pastor) testified under oath in a Maryland courtroom.

Finally, here's a song dedication to those enamored with C.J. Mahaney and the other T4G leaders. Listen carefully as Vince Gill sings about the key…  

Comments

Together Again – Mahaney Reinstated at T4G — 202 Comments

  1. This made me so angry….good thing I saw this before the gym. Having CJ Mahaney speak is like having Jeffrey Dahmer having a cooking show on the Food network.

  2. I wish I could say I was surprised, but I am not. T4G has little to do with the gospel. A lot to do with the promotion of Calvinism and patriarchy. A ton to do with promotion of this little cabal and looking out for each other.

  3. I think the timing of Mahaney’s re-debut on the heels of the Duggar and Sitler meadow muffin storm is interesting.

  4. Apparently there are reports coming out that Josh Duggar isn't particularly sorry about his affairs. The latest thing in evangelical circles is "never saying one is sorry."

  5. It’s been clear for some time that CJ, with help from his enablers, has been plotting his comeback from disgrace, and an unrepentant one at that. “Creating a Culture of Joy in Your Church”?, Really?! T4G owes me a new keyboard.

    Is this Kevin DeYoung’s coming out party with the big dogs? He’s been in an apprentice role it seems up until now.

    T4G is nothing more than a bi-annual medicine show for the greater glorification of the Calvinista frat boys.

  6. When the lengthy lawsuit came out about Sovereign Grace and CJ Mahaney, after reading it I hardly could sleep that night. I was sick to my stomach that those precious little children were so horribly sexually abused. The next Sunday, we visited Providence Baptist in Raleigh and who was the guest speaker? CJ Mahaney, wearing tight pants and looking his casual hip self. It was not announced ahead of time that CJ was preaching and Pastor David Horner introduced him in glowing terms. Imagine going to church to worship God and seeing Mahaney shamelessly preaching. I thought I was going to throw up. BUT, do you know what is just as disappointing and disturbing–I forwarded the lawsuit to a number of members at Providence and do you know what? Not one single person got upset. Not one that I know of. Where is the righteous rage? So, this latest love story with T4G doesn't surprise me in the least.

  7. @ Corbin:
    He’s back! Has is own network – Son Life Broadcast (SBN). But he will never be, I don’t think back in mainstream Pentecostalism’s bosom.

  8. @ Janice McKenzie:

    Thanks for that interesting information. When Mahaney came to town during that time he showed up at N.C. State's Campus Crusade (Cru) weekly gathering. Not sure that was announced in advance either. How do I know he spoke? Because my daughter was a student there and heard his talk.

    So I have one daughter who attended UNC and was subjected to Mark Driscoll's "Naked and Unashamed" message/ Q&A session at a Cru gathering, and my other daughter who attended NCSU had to listen to Mahaney. I am so glad they have both graduated!

  9. “C.J. Mahaney will be speaking on Creating Joy in your Church”

    Is that the joy before or after he leaves to avoid church discipline?

    Words fail.

    Do these men have no shame?

  10. What a waste of hard-earned money. I will never attend a christian conference again. Nor buy any book, CD, or DVD purporting to tell me how to live my life so that I might have abundant life and joy. I’ve found more abundant life outside the church culture, so far.

    Don’t know yet about joy, but I do know there was none there, in the culture I left behind.

  11. They could kill two birds with one stone and invite Nadia Bolz-Weber: a Lutheran and a woman. Unfortunately, they may actually try to stone her.

  12. Qualified or not, “joy” has been a theme in CJ’s preaching since the beginning. His very first sermon, at TAG, was on the topic of joy. He is well known for exhorting Christians to “be a joy to pastor”, based on Hebrews 13:17, for example in this blog post from 2008:
    https://sovereigngracemusic.org/blogs/cj-mahaney/post/2008/06/20/The-Pastore28099s-Joy-2b-Church-Members.aspx

    I am quite aware of how much his actions have not created joy in thousands of lives, including many in my church.

    As for the SGC breakout session, in past years it has not been an official part of T4G, but a closed session that SGC holds on their own in a hotel ballroom that same week, since so many SGC pastors were at the conference already. In 2010 they used it for Jeff Purswell to do an information dump on his infamous paper about their polity shifts (including moving away from belief in contemporary apostles), which blindsided the SGM pastors (I was there recording it). The description for next year looks like they’re opening it up to outsiders, so it would have a different character than in past years.

  13. Corbin wrote:

    This is ridiculous. What’s next? Is Jimmy Swaggart coming back?

    Jimmy Swaggart has assumed a lower profile over the last 25 years but he never really left. I saw him on late-night TV several years ago when I was between jobs.

  14. “Creating a Culture of Joy in Your Church”.
    After everything I’ve heard and read, I can’t help but wonder …. joy for whom, and at who’s expense?
    Culture minus ure equals Cult.

  15. Mahaney talks about creating joy in the church and “Complementarity” is beautiful and 9Marks doesn’t want churches to be 9Marxist. Is this Opposite Day and nobody told me?

  16. I thought this would be off topic but after reading this post, I couldn’t have been more wrong. Boz T. tweeted this link. It is an audio recording of Dr. Diane Langburg, a Christian psychologist speaking on narcissistic personality disorder. It yells Doug Wilson (or at least his rhetoric), especially her reference to the sociopath as a “wordmaster.” But I suspect this information will shed light on the dynamic and power of TGC/TG4. ow.ly/S0nIL

  17. Donna wrote:

    That line was bad in “Love Story” and it’s bad now.

    I recall that in a later comedy with Ryan O’Neil someone used the “never having to say you’re sorry” line and O’Neil deadpanned and responded “That is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard”.

  18. Nancy2 wrote:

    “Creating a Culture of Joy in Your Church”.
    After everything I’ve heard and read, I can’t help but wonder …. joy for whom, and at who’s expense?
    Culture minus ure equals Cult.

    Joy(TM) as in “Dance Joyfully with Great Enthusiasm before Comrade Dear Leader!”?

  19. @ Bill M:
    “What’s up Doc”. Barbra Streisand says it to Ryan O’Neil, and bats her eyelashes. I just remember laughing so hard at the time even though I hadn’t seen “Love Story”. Once I saw that it was even funnier b/c that line is such corn pone.

  20. What we have found surprising is that C.J. Mahaney will be speaking on Creating Joy in your Church, according to the T4G website. Given what has happened at Covenant Life (CLC), the church he co-founded and pastored for 27 years, and in Sovereign Grace Ministries, we are hard pressed to find any evidence that he is qualified to address this topic.

    Well, CJ's answer to that may be, "The joy and the pleasure were all mine, and mine alone!"

    BTW, what is it with those TLAs all starting with a T – T4G, TGC? Isn't about time to rename them the TICs – the incestuous (good old boys') clubs?

  21. JeffT wrote:

    T4G is nothing more than a bi-annual medicine show for the greater glorification of the Calvinista frat boys.

    Yes, don’t you know the old Latin phrase: “ad maiorem hominium gloriam”?

  22. These men do not hate child sexual abuse.

    They should be ashamed, they are heartless and embarrassing. Drunk in love with each other. They have no morals, they are just selfish.

    This is a huge hurtful slap in the face of sexually abused children, not that these self important men give a tiny care.

  23. “an extremely narrow theology, which we call “Neo-Calvinism”, which is NOT the same theology as traditional Calvinism”

    Thank You for emphasizing this.

  24. Debbylynn wrote:

    Thank God I found Wartburg Watch!!! I am so grateful for all I learn here

    It's a blessing. I learned so much about the YRR (calvinistas) movement here. Our church had been hijacked by them. Finding TWW brought comfort and education to me.

  25. Eagle wrote:

    @ Janet Varin:
    Do you have that link Janet?

    Janet posted it in her comment but it was a bit hard to see. Here it is:

    ow.ly/S0nIL

  26. Janet Varin wrote:

    It is an audio recording of Dr. Diane Langburg, a Christian psychologist speaking on narcissistic personality disorder. It yells Doug Wilson (or at least his rhetoric), especially her reference to the sociopath as a “wordmaster.”

    Just as a sidenote – there is a difference between Narcissistic Personality Disorder [NPD] and Antisocial Personality Disorder [APD]; between narcissists and sociopaths. I’m certainly not an expert, and the two do share lots of similarities and can coexist (I believe they’re in the same cluster of personality disorders) but they are not the same. It’s worth reading up on the two on your own, but I wanted to mention that because referring to someone like Mahaney or Wilson as both a sociopath and a narcissist undermines one’s claim that they actually do have something seriously wrong [beyond the basic selfishness that we all are prone to].

    On a purely speculative level, I’d guess that both are narcissists but not sociopaths. Sociopathy makes personal relationships impossible to maintain – I have a friend whose father fits all the diagnostic criteria and even though she grew up in a very fundamental, patriarchal environment, her mother did end up divorcing her father and none of them have real contact with him. I doubt that the Mahaney/Wilson clans would stay as tight as they have been if APD was involved, but it is more possible to have a close relationship with a narcissist, even if it is not a healthy one. All this is FWIW – I didn’t listen to the presentation by Dr. Langberg yet.

  27. Deb wrote:

    @ Elizabeth Lee:
    I am just about done listening to it and have learned a lot!

    My ex-husband may have NPD, and a lot of it was familiar. Sadly.

  28. I like the song!

    It was not me who coined the term 9Marx. I believe it was one of TWW regulars, but I cannot remember who. I just thought it was clever and kept using it. Who ever thought it up should speak up!

    Check out Mahaney’s bio on the T4G site. The musings of a wannabe jock. Yawn.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvUOgIgLqOQ

  29. I listened to Dr. Langberg’s talk on NPD and I felt sick. She didn’t mention therapy or repentance as a possible “cure” for NPD, only that those within reach of the narcissist should run or be consumed by the NPD’s unquenchable hunger to be praised, edified and acknowledged. It is horrifying to listen to. I realize now that the NPD is a broken and suffering human being. I also realize that, after reading pages and pages of Doug Wilson’s writings, she seems to describe him so precisely.

    She spoke not only about the narcissist but the broken system that allows the narcissist to thrive: a population that responds to promises (actually braggadoccio) for results, and especially learns to base its own success on association with their leader. And that was my aha moment in this Doug Wilson affair. And the CJ affair and the Driscoll affair. The lesson I see from history is that once a crowd has placed its own identity in a leader, they are loyal to the bitter end because (in my estimation), they have, unawares, replaced the rule of Christ in their lives with that of an artful human being who wanted that all along.

    The one paragraph out of all of Doug Wilson’s writings that I’ve read that has lodged in my brain is where, once the push back from the non-Christ Kirk population began, he paints himself as the suffering servant, privately doing a jig as he celebrates his promotion by God for this happily anticipated persecution, accompanied by his loyal wife who has bought him a bottle of expensive scotch for just this occasion, all written in jocular style, and all but obliterating the images of sexual assault of children. The moral has never been plainer: Given standard human dynamics, a church that has no outside accountability will fail because no single man has ever been equipped for or worthy of this calling.
    And that means “ruling” elders are NOT hand-picked by him or are primarily his friends; that those up the line are NOT his friends; and that the members of the congregation with influence are NOT his friends. (Anymore than my therapist is my friend; if she were, our incredibly valuable relationship would cease to exist). And that means that watchdog blogs, Boz, and other outside agencies are truly the only means of grace willing and able to impartially call out sins of leadership in these churches. I reference the front row line-up in the above photo as an example.

    Again I apologize for the length of this post. I implore all to listen to this message and to pass it on.

  30. Sarah wrote:

    Just as a sidenote – there is a difference between Narcissistic Personality Disorder [NPD] and Antisocial Personality Disorder [APD]

    Oops. My error. She did not mention sociopathy, strictly NPD.

  31. Together Again – Mahaney Reinstated at T4G

    Chuckle Chuckle…
    (HUMBLY, of course)

  32. Janet,
    An interesting opinion/analysis. In my 55 years of life, I have seen/experienced a number of fundamentalist/evangelical groups, and so many of them also exhibit various forms of what you write about. Interesting, many/most have a group of leaders that exhibit this form of behavior…
    The sad thing is that human seem to gravitate to that kind of leader, do not think for themselves, and just further amplify the cycle….. The young earthers exhibit a vary similar behavior…. Just a different set of diversions….

    Janet Varin wrote:

    I listened to Dr. Langberg’s talk on NPD and I felt sick. She didn’t mention therapy or repentance as a possible “cure” for NPD, only that those within reach of the narcissist should run or be consumed by the NPD’s unquenchable hunger to be praised, edified and acknowledged. It is horrifying to listen to. I realize now that the NPD is a broken and suffering human being. I also realize that, after reading pages and pages of Doug Wilson’s writings, she seems to describe him so precisely.
    She spoke not only about the narcissist but the broken system that allows the narcissist to thrive: a population that responds to promises (actually braggadoccio) for results, and especially learns to base its own success on association with their leader. And that was my aha moment in this Doug Wilson affair. And the CJ affair and the Driscoll affair. The lesson I see from history is that once a crowd has placed its own identity in a leader, they are loyal to the bitter end because (in my estimation), they have, unawares, replaced the rule of Christ in their lives with that of an artful human being who wanted that all along.
    The one paragraph out of all of Doug Wilson’s writings that I’ve read that has lodged in my brain is where, once the push back from the non-Christ Kirk population began, he paints himself as the suffering servant, privately doing a jig as he celebrates his promotion by God for this happily anticipated persecution, accompanied by his loyal wife who has bought him a bottle of expensive scotch for just this occasion, all written in jocular style, and all but obliterating the images of sexual assault of children. The moral has never been plainer: Given standard human dynamics, a church that has no outside accountability will fail because no single man has ever been equipped for or worthy of this calling.
    And that means “ruling” elders are NOT hand-picked by him or are primarily his friends; that those up the line are NOT his friends; and that the members of the congregation with influence are NOT his friends. (Anymore than my therapist is my friend; if she were, our incredibly valuable relationship would cease to exist). And that means that watchdog blogs, Boz, and other outside agencies are truly the only means of grace willing and able to impartially call out sins of leadership in these churches. I reference the front row line-up in the above photo as an example.
    Again I apologize for the length of this post. I implore all to listen to this message and to pass it on.

  33. It should be clear by now that “Together for the Gospel” really means “Together for Calvinism.” I’ve always thought that John MacArthur doesn’t fit with this crowd of “New” Calvinists. He’s such a fuddy-duddy “Old” Calvinist. But, I guess he appeals to a segment of faithful followers of this aberrant theology. Spirits never die – they just hang out until they find the right vessel to inhabit. Some 500 years later, the spirit of John Calvin still lives; you will find it manifested on the speaker platform at T4C (Together for Calvinism). “We Protest” is an apropos title for their gathering … New Calvinism is a 21st century protest of the message of Christ for ALL people and the overwhelming majority of Christians throughout the world who reject the tenets of reformed theology, those who New Calvinists say have lost the gospel. They won’t need any bright lights to illuminate the speaker’s platform at T4C… arrogance brings its own glow. It’s no surprise that Mahaney is baaaaccck; these folks take care of their own with a blood pact for the good of the “reformation.”

  34. Rhonda Montgomery wrote:

    “an extremely narrow theology, which we call “Neo-Calvinism”, which is NOT the same theology as traditional Calvinism”

    Rhonda, within the Southern Baptist Convention, we have both “Old” and “New” Calvinism. The basic message is the same … the Doctrines of Grace … but the methodology is different. While I don’t agree with the underlying reformed theology of either, the old guard have been much more dignified over the years with their “quiet revolution” to takeover the SBC. This new stream is much more militant and aggressive. It is splitting churches throughout SBC. Its young, restless and reformed pastors are not beyond lying to pastor search committees in traditional churches in order to gain a pulpit by stealth and deception. The T4G conference exists to indoctrinate and spur these young rebels forward. What the old guys were unable to accomplish, New Calvinists have just about pulled off … Calvinization of the largest non-Calvinist Protestant denomination in American.

  35. @ Max:

    Agreed! I suspect that Mahaney's cronies had no choice but to welcome him back with open arms because T$G (oops, T4G) is HIS BABY.  Of the Fab Four (Mohler, Dever, Mahaney, and Duncan) I believe only Mahaney had experience in setting up conferences on this scale.  

    Here are two posts we wrote over 5 years ago where we shared our theory about how Together for the Gospel came to be.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/03/01/together-on-a-mission-or-together-for-the-gospel/

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/04/06/the-fab-four-high-and-lifted-up/

  36. @ Max:
    It’s also occurring in unaffilated/independent churches..just doesn’t get the press.
    Our former church fell to, wolves in sheep’s clothing. Church had it’s roots in Free Will Baptist (1852 ) but became an unaffiliated congregation around 1910…100 years later, the YRR took control.

  37. Bridget wrote:

    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Check out Mahaney’s bio on the T4G site. The musings of a wannabe jock. Yawn.

    He is like a grown man stuck in his teen years.

    Isn't he (and his minions) really really into Fantasy Football?

  38. Max wrote:

    While I don’t agree with the underlying reformed theology of either, the old guard have been much more dignified over the years with their “quiet revolution” to takeover the SBC. This new stream is much more militant and aggressive.

    Party Apparatchik’s vs Chairman Calvin’s Red Guard?

  39. Janet Varin wrote:

    The lesson I see from history is that once a crowd has placed its own identity in a leader, they are loyal to the bitter end because (in my estimation),

    Likewise some of us are da@ned and determined to the end from our own perspective. I had an Air Force Officer who taught me why rape and sexual assault is a problem in the military. The false accusation I endured and managed drives me like you cannot believe. You don’t mess with someone’s ability to earn income, or pay their bills. I hate crap, and I hate seeing this garbage. This enrages me like you can not fathom Janet. Some of us are digging in to wage war and contest this crap so others don’t get hurt. People should not be getting hurt.

  40. Deb, it’s true that SGC’s events department (especially Paul Medler) has been instrumental in making the T4G conferences happen. I think T4G has helped keep SGC’s events department afloat as SGC has held fewer and fewer conferences themselves. Still, it’s possible for them to be contracted to administrate the conference even when CJ isn’t speaking, as last year’s T4G showed.

    Conceptually, I believe that T4G is Mark Dever’s creation more than anyone else’s. John MacArthur’s Grace to You also has experience putting on large conferences, and they did the video recording and DVD authoring for the first T4G (I made the audio recordings from their videos).

    I suspect a bigger factor in CJ’s return is that T4G is built on the friendships between the founders and their guest speakers, and they’re still friends with CJ. As we know, they are inclined to believe his version of events without checking the evidence and testimonies themselves.

  41. Mae wrote:

    It’s also occurring in unaffilated/independent churches..just doesn’t get the press.

    And in the Evangelical Free Church of America … and in the Assembly of God denomination! With amazing speed, the new reformation is taking root … primarily populated with young gullibles in their 20s-40s. They have been caught up in the wave of new and exciting … but dead wrong. These T4G leaders will have a lot to answer for when they stand before the throne:

    “Not many [of you] should become teachers [serving in an official teaching capacity], my brothers and sisters, for you know that we [who are teachers] will be judged by a higher standard [because we have assumed greater accountability and more condemnation if we teach incorrectly]” (James 3:1 AMP).

  42. @ Deb:
    Thanks Deb for the links to your former posts on T4G. You and Dee certainly had the “Fab Four” figured out early on! Thanks for the tremendous service you are providing to keep the spotlight on such organizations and for your intervention to flag abuses of the least of these at the hands authoritarian leaders.

    I’ve been tracking developments within New Calvinism for about 7 years, after getting wise to the message and method of these young reformers. While the Fab Four are no longer young, they are fulfilling their youthful passion for the new reformation through the YRR. Mainline Christianity is still largely uninformed, misinformed, or willingly ignorant about this movement and are easy pickins’ for the likes of the Fab Four and their followers. This ain’t the Third Awakening – the masses are still very much asleep in their pews and the spineless non-Calvinist pulpit won’t sound the alarm to wake them up.

  43. Sallie Borrink wrote:

    “C.J. Mahaney will be speaking on Creating Joy in your Church”
    Is that the joy before or after he leaves to avoid church discipline?
    Words fail.
    Do these men have no shame?

    Dave MacKenzie wrote:

    Qualified or not, “joy” has been a theme in CJ’s preaching since the beginning. His very first sermon, at TAG, was on the topic of joy. He is well known for exhorting Christians to “be a joy to pastor”, based on Hebrews 13:17, for example in this blog post from 2008:

    Oh! That makes sense! He’s not teaching about joy for the *congregation* but rather, he’s teaching about joy for the *pastor*!!!

  44. refugee wrote:

    Oh! That makes sense! He’s not teaching about joy for the *congregation* but rather, he’s teaching about joy for the *pastor*!!!

    All Population Units Dance Joyfully With Great Enthusiasm Before Comrade Dear Leader!

  45. Bill M wrote:

    Donna wrote:
    That line was bad in “Love Story” and it’s bad now.
    I recall that in a later comedy with Ryan O’Neil someone used the “never having to say you’re sorry” line and O’Neil deadpanned and responded “That is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard”.

    I remember that, too! What movie was that, anyway?

  46. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:
    “Creating a Culture of Joy in Your Church”.
    After everything I’ve heard and read, I can’t help but wonder …. joy for whom, and at who’s expense?
    Culture minus ure equals Cult.

    Joy(TM) as in “Dance Joyfully with Great Enthusiasm before Comrade Dear Leader!”?

    Joy, as in “Be a joyful giver” (2 Cor 9:7).

  47. Max wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Isn’t he (and his minions) really really into Fantasy Football?

    Yes, and Fantasy Theology!

    As a D&Der who survived the Satanic Panic (Thank You Mike Warnke), I find it (redacted) that of Fantasy RPGs, D&D is SAY-TANN-IC!!!!!(TM) while Fantasy Football is Godly and Gospelly(TM).

    Football Uber Alles, just like High School.
    These F’ers have Never left High School.
    And they will NEVER let any of the rest of us leave their High School. EVER.

  48. refugee wrote:

    Joy(TM) as in “Dance Joyfully with Great Enthusiasm before Comrade Dear Leader!”?

    Joy, as in “Be a joyful giver” (2 Cor 9:7).

    FUND = GIMME MONEY!
    A = WITHOUT
    MENTAL = BRAINS

  49. Janet Varin wrote:

    The lesson I see from history is that once a crowd has placed its own identity in a leader, they are loyal to the bitter end because (in my estimation), they have, unawares, replaced the rule of Christ in their lives with that of an artful human being who wanted that all along.

    Insightful response. Thanks.

  50. Deb wrote:

    T$G

    The conference bookstore will be open from 8am-10pm each day. It’s called merchandising the Gospel (I mean Calvinism). The tables will be piled high! Your favorite icons will sign their books, inscribed with “Go home and takeover a non-Calvinist church, young rebel”!

  51. Max wrote:

    Its young, restless and reformed pastors are not beyond lying to pastor search committees in traditional churches in order to gain a pulpit by stealth and deception. The T4G conference exists to indoctrinate and spur these young rebels forward. What the old guys were unable to accomplish, New Calvinists have just about pulled off … Calvinization of the largest non-Calvinist Protestant denomination in American.

    Which, to me, speaks of untold future suffering for the people in the congregations, and an acceleration in the disintegration of the SBC, losing members in the same way a severed artery loses lifeblood.

  52. Max wrote:

    Deb wrote:
    T$G
    The conference bookstore will be open from 8am-10pm each day. It’s called merchandising the Gospel (I mean Calvinism). The tables will be piled high! Your favorite icons will sign their books, inscribed with “Go home and takeover a non-Calvinist church, young rebel”!

    Reminds me of a Ligonier conference I attended. Tables piled high with books for sale. People buying-buying-buying.

  53. refugee wrote:

    untold future suffering for the people in the congregations, and an acceleration in the disintegration of the SBC, losing members in the same way a severed artery loses lifeblood.

    Give the new reformation another five years and your prophecy will be fulfilled. A once-great evangelistic denomination will forfeit their torch to another. But God …

  54. refugee wrote:

    Max wrote:
    Deb wrote:
    T$G
    The conference bookstore will be open from 8am-10pm each day. It’s called merchandising the Gospel (I mean Calvinism). The tables will be piled high! Your favorite icons will sign their books, inscribed with “Go home and takeover a non-Calvinist church, young rebel”!

    Reminds me of a Ligonier conference I attended. Tables piled high with books for sale. People buying-buying-buying.

    Ironically, the conference topic was “The Holiness of God”. I wonder what would have happened if someone had come in with a bullwhip and started upsetting the tables in the outer court?

  55. Max wrote:

    refugee wrote:
    untold future suffering for the people in the congregations, and an acceleration in the disintegration of the SBC, losing members in the same way a severed artery loses lifeblood.
    Give the new reformation another five years and your prophecy will be fulfilled. A once-great evangelistic denomination will forfeit their torch to another. But God …

    I have a friend, who ten years or so ago, expressed dismay that her family couldn’t seem to find a church. They were doing “home church” at the time. I’m not sure what they’re doing now (we’ve been out of touch since Christmas; I need to call her!) but I remember feeling sad for her. She found her fellowship in our homeschool support group and the homeschool co-op her kids were in. After our painful separation from our former church, now I wonder if she was avoiding a lot more pain, somehow.

    I’m not saying home church is superior — wherever you have people, you can have abuse, and misconstruing scripture.

  56. @ Deb:
    Good Lord, Deb! Yes, there will undoubtedly be a mega-bookstore at this year’s conference! New Calvinist books are selling like hotcakes at bookstores in my area – these best sellers are strategically placed at store entrances. I wish these young folks were as passionate about a living Christ as they are with a 500 year old dead man. T$G2016 will be quite the gathering of spiky hairdos and 9Marxist tattoos. The purest of them all will be wearing long pointed beards and packing an armload of the current literature. Pied Piper will be sure to draw a crowd! The young gullibles will be lining up for selfies with the big boys. Mohler Moments will be tweeted across cyberspace. It will be a glorious chapter in the history of the church (not).

  57. refugee wrote:

    They were doing “home church” at the time.

    The Christian church began in homes and 2,000 years later may end up there. There has always been the Church within the church. The remnant has a way of finding each other and gathering to worship Christ and fellowship with each other. Sadly, they can’t do that in many church buildings these days, of whatever theological flavor. Unless we repent …

  58. From the main body of the post:

    Over the summer Mahaney has been making his way back into the public eye with an appearance at WorshipGod2015 and as a member of the Advisory Board of a group called Speak for the Unborn.

    Since I am also staunchly pro-life and anti-abortion, this was good to see. It also affirmed my belief that there is no such thing as ‘good deeds for the wrong reasons’. Goodness is goodness no matter where it arises, because God’s goodness is not wholly other. I think that C.S. Lewis argued this point quite convincingly.

  59. Deb, if you pull up the UNC CRU recommended reading list, you will note CJ Mahaney. In addition, from the list comes at least four versions of Hell. I wrote the leadership, whom I know, and asked for them to please decide where they stand on Hell. From Brennan Manning, Stott to MacArthur. Oh, dear. Where does a thinking intelligent college student know what to believe? I also asked them why is it OK to recommend CJ Mahaney's books while he is involved in a sexual predator lawsuit? Shouldn't they pull all of his material until he has been exonerated? We have since removed our support of CRU. I know of several pastors, when asked to have CJ preach, who refused to allow Mahaney preach until this matter is settled. There are a few pastors showing wisdom.

  60. I vote you add another video to the bottom of the post: “Reunited”, by Peaches and Herb, a 1980s classic. Here are the lyrics.

    HERB
    I was a fool to ever leave your side
    Me minus you is such a lonely ride
    The breakup we had has made me lonesome and sad
    I realize I love you ’cause I want you bad, hey, hey

    PEACHES
    I spent the ev’ning with the radio
    Regret the moment that I let you go
    Our quarrel was such a way of learnin’ so much
    I know now that I love you ’cause I need your touch, hey, hey
    Reunited and it feels so good
    Reunited ’cause we understood
    There’s one perfect fit
    And, sugar, this one is it
    We both are so excited ’cause we’re reunited, hey, hey

    PEACHES
    I sat here starin’ at the same old wall
    Came back to life just when I got your call
    I wished I could climb right through the telephone line
    And give you what you want so you will still be mine, hey, hey

  61. Janet Varin wrote:

    The lesson I see from history is that once a crowd has placed its own identity in a leader, they are loyal to the bitter end because (in my estimation), they have, unawares, replaced the rule of Christ in their lives with that of an artful human being who wanted that all along.

    Eins Volk,
    Eins Reich,
    Eins Fuehrer…

  62. refugee wrote:

    I have a friend, who ten years or so ago, expressed dismay that her family couldn’t seem to find a church.

    We hear this frequently in our corner of the world. A pastor-type, who has lived in several parts of the US, told me he has never been anywhere with as many disconnected believers. Some are damaged by church, while others just don’t fit. We call them Misfits. And we are Misfits too.

    And we aren’t that far from Louisville. I wonder if they would let me into T4G? Wow, that would be an experience that would require some recovery time, and maybe some counseling.

  63. Eagle wrote:

    Max its called the Reformed Industrial Complex at its finest!

    Yes Eagle … merchandising Calvinism to the young and foolish has become an industry in itself.

  64. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    It was not me who coined the term 9Marx. I believe it was one of TWW regulars, but I cannot remember who. I just thought it was clever and kept using it. Who ever thought it up should speak up!

    I addressed Bobby Jamieson “and other 9-Marxists” back on 02/02/12 http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/02/02/mark-dever-9-marks-edict-you-cannot-resign-wo-permission/comment-page-1/#comment-35732
    However, I can’t guarantee it was original!

  65. Max wrote:

    Eagle wrote:
    Max its called the Reformed Industrial Complex at its finest!
    Yes Eagle … merchandising Calvinism to the young and foolish has become an industry in itself.

    It’s the gospel of marketing.

  66. @ Janice McKenzie:

    One of the posts I plan to write at my blog in the next two weeks is the following. Cru at George Mason University recommends Sovereign Grace Fairfax to its students. I would like to know why? I did Cru, why would Cru recommend a church that is ground zero at the largest evangelical lawsuit and heavily discussed on SGM Survivors?

  67. Hmmm…..how much do you want to bet that CJ’s sermon boils down to being a joy to your pastors who lord…er, I mean watch over you, as being the key to creating Joy in your church.

    Wow…so much joy and lasting fruit from your last train wreck CJ (CLC-Gaithersburg).

    People are actually going to pay to watch CJ stand up there and lie. Sad state of affairs….

  68. Now when we are concerned about the abuse of children, women, church members, Narcissists, dictatorial submission, etc etc I am right on board…. but some seem to feel that the root of all evil is Calvanism and with that I am confused. False teachers, prophets go for it or is it all in a tidy Calvanist package? I see all denominations being infiltrated by the evil, the money grubbers, egotists, bullies, tares or is there something I’m missing?

  69. 9Marx may be an easy wordplay, but it’s so appropriate. Like Marxism, it’s pure idealism that is completely incompatible with sinful humans and our lust for God’s authority. Dever strikes me as the higher academic type – probably well-meaning but his judgment and practicality are clouded by an inflated view of himself and a compromised view of everyone else.

    Speaking of, as of the Labor Day weekend, my girlfriend’s family is getting jacked around by their 9Marx/TGC church. They had several years there without any trouble. I can’t share any details, but prayers are appreciated!

  70. I just took another look at the photo at the beginning of this post. Folks, these are the New Calvinist who’s-who that God has placed at the lead to recover the Gospel that the rest of us lost! What was He thinking?! (Al Mohler has a knack of always being front and center on such photos – I guess that’s because he has a bigger stack of books than his buddies). Whew, the American church is being taken on a ride by this cast of characters!

  71. @ Max:

    For the record, I believe Ligon Duncan's brother is the one who took this photo at the last T4G gathering and Tweeted it out.

  72. @ CB:
    Many folks here, like myself, had bad experiences in churches that were of the 9-Marks or YRR variety. Personally, I try not to blame too much on the Calvinism– remembering other non-Calvinist churches with similar problems.

  73. Dave A A wrote:

    @ CB: Many folks here, like myself, had bad experiences in churches that were of the 9-Marks or YRR variety. Personally, I try not to blame too much on the Calvinism– remembering other non-Calvinist churches with similar problems.

    Thank you Dave AA for your reply. "because of sin many will fall away" Oft Da does that say it all these days. I feel like I've had a live tour to learn the pain that apostasy/and sin/and narcissism/and false teachers/teaching brings to us all. Let's name the sin etc etc but not use a shot gun and hit everything all around it. I know about judging the fruit but let's make sure we pick the right tree and to say Calvinism (of which I'm not really) is maybe not accurate. And I know how hurt and bitter it can make us but we'd best seek the Lord on that one lest we "defile many with a root of bitterness" and from first hand experience I know about that one.

  74. At $229 a head, I’m wondering what goes on at these things that makes people willing to fork over that much money. I know there’s a whole lot of preaching by these characters that some regard as celebrities,” but even that doesn’t seem worth the cost of admission. Especially considering that I attend conventions/conferences at a fraction of that price that have actual fun activities to participate in, like video game tournaments.

    Maybe it’s one of those things you can only understand once you consume enough of the Gospel Glitterati’s Kool-Aid…

  75. I just thought I’d let everyone know that the treatment for my vertigo (Epley maneuver) appears to have worked. I’ve not had an episode in 24!!! hours!!! Now I can get back to being dizzied by the machinations of the Calvinistas!

  76. mirele wrote:

    I just thought I’d let everyone know that the treatment for my vertigo (Epley maneuver) appears to have worked. I’ve not had an episode in 24!!! hours!!! Now I can get back to being dizzied by the machinations of the Calvinistas!

    Yeah, Mirele! We’ve been holding good thoughts for you. And kudos to you again for your GREAT posts over at the Bayley blog, on Twitter, etc re Doug Wilson and pedophile. You rock!

  77. Pingback: C.J. Mahaney Back on Center Stage - Thou Art The Man

  78. AnonInNC wrote:

    At $229 a head, I’m wondering what goes on at these things that makes people willing to fork over that much money

    They aren’t worried. They are spending the pewpeons’ money.

  79. @ mirele:
    Yay! That’s brilliant news. And in other brilliant news my little Darcey-Doglet had her last blood test come back normal, meaning her non-regenerative anaemia has reversed itself. Big hurrahs all round.

    P.S. Does anyone look at any of these t4g people & see Christ? I really wonder what they’re like in person as nothing I’ve seen of them looks inspiring in any way.

  80. Dave A A wrote:

    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    It was not me who coined the term 9Marx. I believe it was one of TWW regulars, but I cannot remember who. I just thought it was clever and kept using it. Who ever thought it up should speak up!

    I addressed Bobby Jamieson “and other 9-Marxists” back on 02/02/12 http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/02/02/mark-dever-9-marks-edict-you-cannot-resign-wo-permission/comment-page-1/#comment-35732
    However, I can’t guarantee it was original!

    I have made the proper attribution in the post. Thanks for bringing this to our atention. It is a brilliant descriptor!

  81. @ Velour:

    True! Perhaps the congregants aren't aware of these expenditures because church finances in many cases are not disclosed to those who actually foot the bills.

  82.   __

    “Doing Da Math?”

    hmmm…

    T4G (r) = Together For the ‘Calvinist Gospel’ ™ (T4CG) = Pedophiles Get a Free Pass (PGFP)…

    Therefore, T4G=PGFP.

    (sadface)

    What goes around, comes around?

    All things considered, he who digs a 501(c) religious ditch, must himself fall into it,

    …wait for it.

    Will the Lord deliver into our hand the nefarious 501(c)3 ‘religious’ band that came against us?

    I prayed to the Lord, I lõõked again, and the evil (501(c)3 religionist was gone. He had fallen into the pit he had made for others, yet he himself was consumed by the workings of his own hands.

    Sopy

  83. I believe the proceedings are going to be recorded on film, and will later be issued for world-wide general release (Note: some viewers may find some scenes disturbing) under the title Protest Ant-Man. Available on Blue Ray and Sub-Atomic disc.

    There is a discount for tickets that are pre-booked from Watch It Warthog ministries …

  84. Somebody mentioned Mahaney’s version of the events regarding the molestation. I have never heard his version. I would attend the conference if he would speak on that topic.

    I also would attend if Leeman would give a talk on revisions to his theories of church discipline.

  85.   __

    “Delusion, Or Discernment?”

    hmmm…

    Please “utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse” -A Resolution from the Southern Baptist National Convention in Houston, TX, 2013.

  86. Dave A A wrote:

    Todd Wilhelm wrote:
    I addressed Bobby Jamieson “and other 9-Marxists” back on 02/02/12 http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/02/02/mark-dever-9-marks-edict-you-cannot-resign-wo-permission/comment-page-1/#comment-35732
    However, I can’t guarantee it was original!

    Wow. I just read TWW post and the article, “Pastors, Don’t Let Your People Resign into Thin Air”.
    It made me wonder, how long before 9Marks, etc. churches start trying to garnish the wages of people who don’t tithe? Or, try to get a court order forcing people to attend church services, similar to court orders forcing convicts to meet with parole officers? I know it sounds extreme, but ….

  87. @ CB:
    My primary concern is not so much with Calvinism, but aggressive Calvinization of non-Calvinist churches. “Old” Calvinism has been relatively harmless, with brethren of that theological persuasion clustered together as the predestined chosen frozen. But this new reformation to Calvinize mainline non-Calvinist denominations with the “true gospel”, spurred by the New Calvinist YRR movement (by NC leaders noted in this post), is anything but quiet and harmless. This movement has proven to be militant, controlling, manipulative, deceptive, arrogant and authoritarian in nature … these are not fruit of the Holy Spirit. Many TWW commenters who have experienced NC ministries first hand attest to this; certainly not all NC churches are this way, but enough to cause great concern about the proliferation of the YRR movement. Are there non-Calvinist leaders who act this way? Of course, but surrendering the American church to an army of young, restless and reformed pastors in their 20s-30s, with “elders” of the same age, is a recipe for disaster when spiritual immaturity manifests itself.

  88.   __

    Found written in script on the Capital Baptist Church Mens bathroom stall:

    “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but pedophile hunters will never hurt me…” – C.J. Mahaney

  89. @ Nancy2:
    They know the great weakness in the system is that folks don’t HAVE to “join” in the first place. So… much effort goes into convincing folks that they’re displeasing to God if they don’t sign a covenant. “Also” to paraphrase the teaching “if you don’t sign up, how can we know who to “care” for, and who not to care about?”

  90. Sopwith wrote:

    Please “utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse” -A Resolution from the Southern Baptist National Convention in Houston, TX, 2013.

    Sopwith, I suppose Al Mohler has not had time to read that one since he is so busy scurrying to speaking events to energize and mobilize an army of young, restless and reformed. Of course, C.J. and SGM were cleared of abuse allegations due to a legal statute of limitations on the case, so it’s OK for Dr. Mohler to hang out with him. There should not be a statute of limitations when it comes to child abuse!!

  91. Dave A A wrote:

    Personally, I try not to blame too much on the Calvinism– remembering other non-Calvinist churches with similar problems.

    Good point Dave. In times past, Calvary Chapel has gone out of its way to refute reformed theology and yet they too have a long history of authoritarian abuse by pastors who are able to game the ‘gospel’ system to their own advantage.

  92. Max wrote:

    refugee wrote:
    untold future suffering for the people in the congregations, and an acceleration in the disintegration of the SBC, losing members in the same way a severed artery loses lifeblood.
    Give the new reformation another five years and your prophecy will be fulfilled. A once-great evangelistic denomination will forfeit their torch to another. But God …

    Some may hold on longer than others. We were perhaps more stupid, we hung on out of blind loyalty for two decades. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

  93. @ Max:
    What also ticks me off, is their getting real property by default. Nothing like taking over a congregation and getting the checkbook, savings accounts, assets, by deceit. Can’t stand, abide with those who would take over a church by stealth, by deception….all in the name of Christ of course.

  94. nancyjane wrote:

    Wilson has a new bloviating blog up–he definitely feels the pressure!

    Damn.

    I feel my brain twisting as I read that, and yet I still run up against *wrongness*. Still, the majority of people in my life would read that and praise him for his reasonableness and purity of his gospel message.

    He is like the authorities we left behind, saying in gentle tones, “Come, let us reason together…” but there is poison in their words to quench the Spirit, and shackles they would lock back on our wrists and ankles and souls.

    It is difficult reading. I read some of the comments, as well, but finally had to turn away. It stirs up those feelings of “What if the wrong really lies with me? What if he’s right?”

    But I know that in our own family, the fruit was rotten.

  95. Velour wrote:

    AnonInNC wrote:
    At $229 a head, I’m wondering what goes on at these things that makes people willing to fork over that much money
    They aren’t worried. They are spending the pewpeons’ money.

    R. C. Sproul’s “Holiness of God” conference had a hefty price tag, as I recall. Hefty, anyhow, for the run-of-the-mill single-income homeschooling family. Our church offered working scholarships — usher, work in the bookstore, that sort of thing — to alleviate the cost.

    It was held in a large church facility, so it wasn’t like they had to make up the rent of a convention hall. Maybe we were paying for the transportation costs of those thousands of books in the bookstore, in addition to the transportation, hotels, meals, for Sproul and his staff. (Perhaps he/they didn’t stay with local families, as a lot of the humbler traveling teachers do; I really don’t know what the arrangements were.)

    It consisted of Sproul talking for several sessions. There might have been another speaker, or it might have been all Sproul. Friday evening and all of Saturday? I’m blurry on details now. Enormous bookstore set up on tables. I don’t remember if there was a handout.

    Anyhow, if this conference is being held in a convention center or conference center, a lot of the cost may be facilities rental. Our homeschool convention has been in the local convention center the past few years, and it’s amazing how much it costs for rent and all the incidentals. You can’t bring in your own food, for instance, but have to pay to have the unionized food workers on duty for the duration. You have to pay a fee for every single electrical outlet you require. You pay a fee for every table, every chair, and you pay a fee for the table decoration (i.e. fabric draped over the folding tables — and you don’t have the option of declining), and another for putting up hanging partitions to section off, say, a bookstore from a nursing mother’s area.

  96. Beakerj wrote:

    And in other brilliant news my little Darcey-Doglet had her last blood test come back normal, meaning her non-regenerative anaemia has reversed itself. Big hurrahs all round.

    Oh, so glad! I gave our “puppy” a hug when I read this.

    P.S. Does anyone look at any of these t4g people & see Christ? I really wonder what they’re like in person as nothing I’ve seen of them looks inspiring in any way.

    They really aren’t all that inspiring. I don’t know how to describe it — there’s something that happens when they talk. And it has something to do with being willing to be in bondage, on the part of the listener. (This is different from victim-blaming… It speaks to some lack, some kind of hunger, some emptiness needing to be filled, that a person might or might not even be aware they have.) I remember reading an account of someone who left a church with an authoritative pastor, and one of the things mentioned was that while under the spell, they’d read the pastor’s writings and think them incredibly profound, but when they looked at them again some time after leaving, they found the writings riddled with error.

    It is why I use the term “glamour” (I think it’s an old Scottish term for being under a spell, I don’t remember where I picked it up, from a grandmother, perhaps? or folk tales?) sometimes, to describe the people who are defending Doug Wilson without reservation.

  97. mirele wrote:

    I just thought I’d let everyone know that the treatment for my vertigo (Epley maneuver) appears to have worked. I’ve not had an episode in 24!!! hours!!! Now I can get back to being dizzied by the machinations of the Calvinistas!

    Lovely, Mirele! I am just about to the point of walking away again, needing to take some head-clearing breaths and just do life-affirming things.

  98. Dave A A wrote:

    @ Nancy2:
    They know the great weakness in the system is that folks don’t HAVE to “join” in the first place. So… much effort goes into convincing folks that they’re displeasing to God if they don’t sign a covenant. “Also” to paraphrase the teaching “if you don’t sign up, how can we know who to “care” for, and who not to care about?”

    Folks may not *have* to join, but I remember following a link in one of these comment threads to a 9Marks newsletter, with questions and answers. One question had to do with people reluctant to sign the membership covenant, and the answer had to do with making it progressively more uncomfortable for those hold-outs, until they either decided to jump in, or jump out altogether.

  99. Nancy2 wrote:

    Wow. I just read TWW post and the article, “Pastors, Don’t Let Your People Resign into Thin Air”.
    It made me wonder, how long before 9Marks, etc. churches start trying to garnish the wages of people who don’t tithe? Or, try to get a court order forcing people to attend church services, similar to court orders forcing convicts to meet with parole officers? I know it sounds extreme, but ….

    You’re right, I think. If a membership covenant is actually a legal document, it might be possible for a church to go after a departing member in court, suing for all the tithes they agreed to pay (by signing the covenant) but failed to render to god.

  100. @ Janice McKenzie:

    “…if you pull up the UNC CRU recommended reading list, you will note CJ Mahaney. In addition, from the list comes at least four versions of Hell. I wrote the leadership, whom I know, and asked for them to please decide where they stand on Hell. From Brennan Manning, Stott to MacArthur. Oh, dear. Where does a thinking intelligent college student know what to believe?”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    to me, it’s a very good thing that they have books covering a variety of perspectives. isn’t it much better to make informed decisions on what one believes in (by reading multiple points of view) than blind acceptance?

  101. refugee wrote:

    Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

    Being uninformed or misinformed about New Calvinism is one thing … but to be willingly ignorant is quite another! The Southern Baptist majority have their heads in the sand and their posteriors exposed, while this aberrant theology sweeps through the ranks.

  102. Wow… Where does it end?? Hold outs could be forbidden to have comummion! I do know of churches that make you turn in to them your tax filing each year…. These covenant agreements can just continue to evolve…. Given that in some/most control separation/divorce …. Nothing more restrictive would surprise me…..

    refugee wrote:

    Dave A A wrote:
    @ Nancy2:
    They know the great weakness in the system is that folks don’t HAVE to “join” in the first place. So… much effort goes into convincing folks that they’re displeasing to God if they don’t sign a covenant. “Also” to paraphrase the teaching “if you don’t sign up, how can we know who to “care” for, and who not to care about?”
    Folks may not *have* to join, but I remember following a link in one of these comment threads to a 9Marks newsletter, with questions and answers. One question had to do with people reluctant to sign the membership covenant, and the answer had to do with making it progressively more uncomfortable for those hold-outs, until they either decided to jump in, or jump out altogether.

  103. Mae wrote:

    What also ticks me off, is their getting real property by default. Nothing like taking over a congregation and getting the checkbook, savings accounts, assets, by deceit. Can’t stand, abide with those who would take over a church by stealth, by deception….all in the name of Christ of course.

    In the case of the Southern Baptist Convention, New Calvinists have darn near taken over a whole denomination with barely a whimper from its non-Calvinist majority! They now control 7 of 11 SBC entities, including leading seminaries, its international missions agency, its home missions group, and publishing house. Most new church plants are reformed, and established traditional non-reformed churches are falling to the scheme each year, as the young and restless deceive their way to the pulpit. Just as in a local church takeover, SBC non-Calvinists who dissent the Calvinization of its denomination, will have to just walk off and leave denominational assets behind (which were largely financed over the years by non-Calvinists, by the way!). SBC’s New Calvinist leadership would of course claim this reformation in the name of Christ, but the name of Calvin has propelled the movement.

  104. refugee wrote:

    One question had to do with people reluctant to sign the membership covenant, and the answer had to do with making it progressively more uncomfortable for those hold-outs, until they either decided to jump in, or jump out altogether.

    You refer to Mailbag 8. http://9marks.org/article/mailbag-8-confidentiality-among-elders-meaningful-membership-can-an-elder-be-single-and-young-earth-creationism/
    Which also includes this:
    “And restrict certain activities to just members. In my church, for instance, you cannot participate in most ministries, attend members meetings, or join a small group unless you’re a member. Plus you won’t receive the same level of pastor care. In other words, if non-members are treated just like members, why should they join?”
    As someone commented previously, less pastor “care” might be a good thing!

  105. I sure would not want the leaders of TG4G to care for me… As someone said above, I do not see JC in them…

    Dave A A wrote:

    refugee wrote:
    One question had to do with people reluctant to sign the membership covenant, and the answer had to do with making it progressively more uncomfortable for those hold-outs, until they either decided to jump in, or jump out altogether.
    You refer to Mailbag 8. http://9marks.org/article/mailbag-8-confidentiality-among-elders-meaningful-membership-can-an-elder-be-single-and-young-earth-creationism/
    Which also includes this:
    “And restrict certain activities to just members. In my church, for instance, you cannot participate in most ministries, attend members meetings, or join a small group unless you’re a member. Plus you won’t receive the same level of pastor care. In other words, if non-members are treated just like members, why should they join?”
    As someone commented previously, less pastor “care” might be a good thing!

  106. Ken wrote:

    I (Note: some viewers may find some scenes disturbing)

    Ain’t DAT da truth!
    And let me take this opportunity, prior to leaving off my excessive commenting, to point out again the T4G Affirmationa and Denials (visible on their website). One wee little thing they fail in any way to affirm, is that God is in any way good, or more specifically, that He in any way loves anyone at all. 🙁

  107. What does everyone really expect? It’s always about money and power. As far as CJ goes, “a dog (ed.) always returns to his own vomit”. Harsh, but biblical.

  108. Max wrote:

    “Sopwith, I suppose Al Mohler has not had time to read that one since he is so busy scurrying to speaking events to energize and mobilize an army of young, restless and reformed. Of course, C.J. and SGM were cleared of abuse allegations due to a legal statute of limitations on the case, so it’s OK for Dr. Mohler to hang out with him.”

    Max,

    Distingushed Doctor Albert Mohler has made his bed.

    “There is a way that appears right to a man…”

    (sadface)

    Sopy

  109. Beakerj wrote:

    @ mirele:
    Yay! That’s brilliant news. And in other brilliant news my little Darcey-Doglet had her last blood test come back normal, meaning her non-regenerative anaemia has reversed itself. Big hurrahs all round.

    That’s wonderful news about Darcey. An answer to our prayers for you and her.

  110. Dave A A wrote:

    I was in a FourSquare with a mini-Moses-model pastor. He now sells insurance, after some financial mistakes…

    Papa Chuck (founder of the Calvary Chapel movement) got his start in the FourSquare denomination.

  111. Dave A A wrote:

    Ken wrote:
    I (Note: some viewers may find some scenes disturbing)
    Ain’t DAT da truth!
    And let me take this opportunity, prior to leaving off my excessive commenting, to point out again the T4G Affirmationa and Denials (visible on their website). One wee little thing they fail in any way to affirm, is that God is in any way good, or more specifically, that He in any way loves anyone at all.

    Yes, I’ve noticed that, too among Calvinistas. God is SOVEREIGN to the exclusion of other virtues. And as the Bible notes that we become like the one we worship, it’s not really a surprise that “having right ideas” and “ruling with total control” takes precedence over “loving one another.”

  112. Abi Miah wrote:

    Yes, I’ve noticed that, too among Calvinistas. God is SOVEREIGN to the exclusion of other virtues. And as the Bible notes that we become like the one we worship, it’s not really a surprise that “having right ideas” and “ruling with total control” takes precedence over “loving one another.”

    Islam also emphasizes God’s SOVEREIGN Omnipotence with a side of Predestination. So I would expect the More-Calvinist-Than-Calvin types to resemble their More-Islamic-Than-Mohammed equivalents like a funhouse mirror.

    ISIS, the Taliban, and the Ayatollahs of Iran are also into “having right ideas” and “ruling with total control”. If Calvinistas ever got total political power, I would expect their Global Geneva (and their running of it) to resemble ISIS’ Global Caliphate.

  113. Dave A A wrote:

    One wee little thing they fail in any way to affirm, is that God is in any way good, or more specifically, that He in any way loves anyone at all. 🙁

    “There is no Right, there is no Wrong, there is only POWER.”
    — Lord Voldemort

  114. Max wrote:

    Just as in a local church takeover, SBC non-Calvinists who dissent the Calvinization of its denomination, will have to just walk off and leave denominational assets behind (which were largely financed over the years by non-Calvinists, by the way!).

    Comrade Lenin thought it very hilarious to maneuver the Capitalists into financing their own destruction and liquidation.

    SBC’s New Calvinist leadership would of course claim this reformation in the name of Christ, but the name of Calvin has propelled the movement.

    There is no Christ, there is only CALVIN.

  115. refugee wrote:

    It is why I use the term “glamour” (I think it’s an old Scottish term for being under a spell, I don’t remember where I picked it up, from a grandmother, perhaps? or folk tales?) sometimes, to describe the people who are defending Doug Wilson without reservation.

    Charm Person, 1st-level Arcane spell.
    Mass Charm Person, 6th-level Arcane spell.
    Some guys I knew in Tucson called it “Shining the Stupid Ray on people.”

  116. Max wrote:

    Sopwith, I suppose Al Mohler has not had time to read that one since he is so busy scurrying to speaking events to energize and mobilize an army of young, restless and reformed

    AKA Chairman Mohler’s Red Guard.

  117. Max wrote:

    In the case of the Southern Baptist Convention, New Calvinists have darn near taken over a whole denomination with barely a whimper from its non-Calvinist majority! They now control 7 of 11 SBC entities, including leading seminaries, its international missions agency, its home missions group, and publishing house. Most new church plants are reformed, and established traditional non-reformed churches are falling to the scheme each year, as the young and restless deceive their way to the pulpit. Just as in a local church takeover, SBC non-Calvinists who dissent the Calvinization of its denomination, will have to just walk off and leave denominational assets behind (which were largely financed over the years by non-Calvinists, by the way!

    I have been a member of 4 different SBC affiliated Missionary Baptist churches. In my area, (quiet, rural southern Kentucky) SBC churches are numerous, and I have connections and contacts throughout the area. Most baptists have no idea what is going on in the SBC, as far as NeoCals go. The few people who do know either support the takeovers or think it’s a passing fad. They will rant and rail about missionaries who pray “in tongues “, but think nothing of who controls what and where their tithes go. The men will attend SBC conventions and think they’re great! In our current church, I have had to listen to a recording of David Platt, and speakers quote him and John Piper. …… Makes me wonder how many YRR are already in our church.
    We are currently looking for a new pastor. The men on the pulpit committee and all of the deacons are very much into the “submission of women” stuff.
    I no longer participate in the WMU, and I do not contribute to Lottie Moon or Annie Armstrong offerings.

  118. @ God:

    This concerns me a great deal. God posting without a Union Flag? Are Wartburgers now being targeted by false gods?

    I think we should be told.

  119. Abi Miah wrote:

    Yes, I’ve noticed that, too among Calvinistas. God is SOVEREIGN to the exclusion of other virtues. And as the Bible notes that we become like the one we worship, it’s not really a surprise that “having right ideas” and “ruling with total control” takes precedence over “loving one another.”

    I have been thinking about this as well. It is clear the the Lord is sovereign, in the sense of being King of Kings, Lord of Lords. He is able to guide the actions of kingdoms and nations to do his will (e.g. Cyrus and the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem). But, it seems that the Calvinist crowd twists “Sovereign” to fit human motives i.e. if God has the power, he must use it in all circumstances to bend people to his will.

    Exodus 34:6-7 remains the word of God, and show where his priorities lie – and it doesn’t seem to match what is taught about him.

  120. Dave A A wrote:

    “And restrict certain activities to just members. In my church, for instance, you cannot participate in most ministries, attend members meetings, or join a small group unless you’re a member. Plus you won’t receive the same level of pastor care. In other words, if non-members are treated just like members, why should they join?”

    (sarc on) Because Jesus clearly demonstrated elitism and exclusivity for us to emulate. It’s a Gospel Thing(TM), you know. (sarc off)

    These guys must really excel at scripture-pretzeling to support this. Seriously, do they not hear how petty and high-school-clubbish this sounds?

  121. Chemie wrote:

    But, it seems that the Calvinist crowd twists “Sovereign” to fit human motives i.e. if God has the power, he must use it in all circumstances to bend people to his will.

    The are twisting sovereign to fit into their system. You see this makes God all about power and rule. Thus, his sub-shepherds also must exhibit power and rule. This is one of the reasons, I think, we are seeing a lot of abusive situations pop up in this system. Power corrupts.

  122. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    @ God:
    This concerns me a great deal. God posting without a Union Flag? Are Wartburgers now being targeted by false gods?

    I confess — I’m just a false false god– not a real one.
    In a moment of weakness, I had a lapse in judgment, and mistakes were made.
    But I did it Just for You!

  123. @ Abi Miah:
    A quick, unscientific word search of their affirmations shows, surprisingly, just one “sovereign”, with 4 “authority”s, 4 “power”s and 8 “glory”s.

  124. For those who don’t know, Mahaney disqualified himself from eldership long before his church was covering up child sex abuse. It should be quite clear to any rational person that the are together for the benjamins, not the gospel.

  125. Dave A A wrote:

    You refer to Mailbag 8. http://9marks.org/article/mailbag-8-confidentiality-among-elders-meaningful-membership-can-an-elder-be-single-and-young-earth-creationism/
    Which also includes this:
    “And restrict certain activities to just members. In my church, for instance, you cannot participate in most ministries, attend members meetings, or join a small group unless you’re a member. Plus you won’t receive the same level of pastor care. In other words, if non-members are treated just like members, why should they join?”
    As someone commented previously, less pastor “care” might be a good thing!

    At my former NeoCal/9Marxist church (CA.) they banned Christians from stepping foot at church if they would not sign a *church membership covenant*. The first to be banned was a godly older Christian man from East Asia, a humble brother who quietly served at church for six years, but who did not believe in signing a Membership Covenant. I wanted to cry. I kept thinking, “We aren’t supposed to do this to one another.” (Friends who are conservative Christian elders at their churches in Europe told me they have never heard of such a thing!)

    The pastors/elders announced from the pulpit that they couldn’t tell you were one of their *flock* if you didn’t sign (my thought: they showed up, what more evidence do you need?). Attenders were told from the pulpit not to come to church any more if they weren’t willing to sign.

    Here is Baptist pastor Wade Burleson (The Wartburg Watch’s pastor for the Sunday E-Church) excellent article about why people should say *no* to church membership covenants: http://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/05/five-reasons-to-say-no-to-church.html

  126. Jenny wrote:

    These guys must really excel at scripture-pretzeling to support this. Seriously, do they not hear how petty and high-school-clubbish this sounds?

    I believe the single-word description you’re looking for is: cliquish.

    And I think you’re right. As HUG said elsewhere (I think), they never left high school, and won’t let anyone else leave high school either.

  127. Ken wrote:

    under the title Protest Ant-Man.

    But…in his very first appearance in “Tales to Astonish,” Ant-Man was inspired by a Bible verse! (“Go to the ants, thou sluggard…”)

  128. Nancy2 wrote:

    Most baptists have no idea what is going on in the SBC, as far as NeoCals go. The few people who do know either support the takeovers or think it’s a passing fad.

    Sadly, ignorance and apathy characterize too many SBC churches. The denomination was in decline long before New Calvinism came along (the highest number of SBC baptisms were recorded in the 1950s, when I came to Christ). New Calvinism is not a fad – these folks are passionate about the reformed movement (a misplaced passion). By the time the pew wakes up (if it ever does), their weeping and gnashing of teeth about the theological shift will be too little too late.

  129. @ Velour:
    “and unsatisfied with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers and forbids those who want to do so, even putting them out of the church.”
    Sigh…..

  130. Dave A A wrote:

    @ Velour: “and unsatisfied with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers and forbids those who want to do so, even putting them out of the church.” Sigh…..

    Why of course Dave A A! 3 John 1:9-10 Thanks for the reminder!

  131. @ Dave A A:
    30 some years ago there was something called the Shepherding movement among Charismatics. There were signed covenants or something like it in that. They had small groups and members of the groups washed the cars, mowed the lawns, supported etc their group leader. Sin nature being what it is the poorer members were passed on when the opportunity for the group leader to get a richer member of his group in. The male dominance and female submissiveness reigned amongst many of those. I left the church as those came more and more in control. I feel it is sin to put myself and family in submission to a cult. I wsa a young widow with 2 daughters and I didn’t want them raised in the cult like environment even tho there were many there who we really loved… always a heart breaker. Earlier they had been into Gothard and after into the laughing movement (Toronto Blession) As for me Sola Scriptura, Sola fide (faith), Sola Gratia (Grace), Sola Christo (Christ alone). Some of them survived and are fine Christians. Many were wounded and stories of disaster abound. Credibility means alot especially when it’s lost.

  132.  __

    “Is The Calvinist Actually Presenting The ‘True’ Gospel?”

    hmmm…

    “But, it seems that the Calvinist crowd twists “Sovereign” to fit human motives i.e. if God has the power, he must use it in all circumstances to bend people to his will.” -Chemie

    “They are twisting sovereign to fit into their system. You see this makes God all about power and rule. Thus, His sub-shepherds also must exhibit power and rule. This is one of the reasons, I think, we are seeing a lot of abusive situations pop up in this system.” – Will M

    ***
      For the Calvinist, his belief system is the ‘True Gospel’ ™, therefore strong pursuation, and indoctrination by incremental stealth is certainly acceptable, and even desirable — regeneration , and restoration of the unbeliever (potential elect) being a noble cause; seeing that in his (the Calvinist) belief system, the un-regenerate individual can not ‘believe’ upon Christ as to be saved without regeneration, by the grace of God; –even though this doctrinal position is a direct con·tra·dic·tion
     of Christ’s own words to the Jewish religious leader in the third chapter of  Apostle John’s New Testament gospel account. 

    (Note: Apostle John was an ‘eye wittness’ to the ministry of Jesus.)

    (Please let the reader also note: John Calvin, a 16th century theologian, was not in any way an “eye wittness” of Jesus’ ministry.)

    ATB

    Sopy

  133. @ Nancy2:
    Strachan is hilarious. I love how he strings non-sequitars together to “prove” how “popular” his pet anti-Christ social theory is. Seriously, I laugh out loud most of the time I read anything by him. I guess he has just assumed that he will never appeal to educated people, and so he just takes it. all. the. way.

  134. Sopwith wrote:

    “Is The Calvinist Actually Presenting The ‘True’ Gospel?”

    A warning from Paul: “For [you seem willing to allow it] if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted. You tolerate all this beautifully [welcoming the deception]” (2 Corinthians 11:4 AMP).

    The Calvinist God and the Calvinist Jesus are different from those presented in the whole of the Bible. Scripture speaks much about the sovereignty of God. Scripture speaks much about human free will. It all works together in a way that is beyond human comprehension. To attempt to put the mind of God into a neat theological box constructed by a mere man (Calvin) is to stand before Holy God in arrogance and error. Reformed theology presents “another Jesus”, a “different spirit”, and a “different gospel” than those accepted by mainline Christianity throughout the world … mature Christians can discern it when they walk in the door of reformed churches.

    New Calvinism is an aberration which is drawing away millions of our youth from the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth … whose plan would that be? Reformed theology is a pursuit of the intellect for the “different”; this journey is not led by the Spirit. Oh, but Max, NC Calvinist leaders are such brilliant men; they include even seminary presidents! To which I respond “Man’s wisdom is as ignorance to God.” Sadly, followers of such aberrant theology may be “reformed”, but not “transformed”.

    One of the greatest mission fields on the planet for the true message of the Cross of Christ can be found in Calvinist ministries. If/when the dust settles from the reformed movement, millions of young folks will leave disillusioned; some will seek the Gospel which saves, but many will sadly be done with it all.

  135. *
    *
      __

    “Rocky Mohler Way?”[1]*

    hmmm…

       Hum, hum, hum..spent the last few years
    Rocky Mohler Way,
    Couldn’t get much lower
    With so many T4G pasters thinking they can break all da rules,
    Think  it’s safe to say, Time for da watchdog blogs and social media ta open fire, eh?
    And we don’t need the Calvinistas,
    Preaching ’cause the abuse storie’s are so so sad,
    ’cause the Rocky Mohler Way,
    Is better than the way we had?
    What?
    Well he’s tellin’ us this,
    And he’s tellin’ us that,
    Church takeovers left n’ right,
    leadership changes every day,
    Say’s it doesn’t matter,
    Bases are loaded and Mahaney’s again at bat,
    Far ‘removed’ from da cheap seats,
    Playin’ it play by play,
    No matter what da guy does N’ public opinion may say?
    Time ta change da batter?
    Ah huh,  
    And we don’t need the Calvinestas pulpit pounding,
    Cause the published abuse storie’s are so very sad, uh huh,
    ‘Rocky Rocky Mohler Way’ ™ ,
    Are these T4G guyz really saying every christian must get ‘Calvinated’ (R) ?

    Hey, hey…hey, hey, hey…

    (sadface)

    Sopy
    __
    [1]* Comic relief: lyrics adaption for religious parody: Joe Walsh, “Rocky Mountain Way”;  © Universal Music Publishing Group; https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F1uWA7VPGiE

    🙂

  136.  
    *
    *

    __

    ” ‘Simple PewPeon’ (R) to the ‘Calvinsta Pulpit Pounder’ ™ , Let me Taste You Wares?”

    hmmm…

    “Is The Calvinist Actually Presenting The ‘True’ Gospel?” -Sopwith

    huh?

    “A warning from Paul: “For [you seem willing to allow it] if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted. You tolerate all this beautifully [welcoming the deception]” (2 Corinthians 11:4 AMP).

    What?!?

    The Calvinist God and the Calvinist Jesus are different from those presented in the whole of the Bible. 

    Skreeeeeeetch!

    (Scripture speaks much about the sovereignty of God.)

    Yep.

    (Scripture also speaks much about human free will.)

    Datz right.

    It all works together in a way that is beyond human comprehension. 

    Oh!

    Therfore, to attempt to put the mind of God into a neat little theological box construct, by a mere man (John Calvin) –is to stand before Amighty God in arrogance and error. 

    Whoops! 

    …dig deeper, eh?

    —> ‘Reformed Theology’ ™ presents “another Jesus”, a “different spirit”, and a “different gospel” than those accepted by mainline Christianity throughout the world … 

    Mature Christians can discern it when they walk in the doors of reformed churches,

    —> New Calvinism is an aberration which the YRR Calvinesta media content providers are utilizing to draw away millions of our youth from the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth … 

    Q. Whose plan would that be? 

    Reformed theology is a pursuit of the intellect for the “different”; this journey is not led by the Spirit. Oh, but Max, NC Calvinist leaders are such brilliant men; they include even seminary presidents! To which I respond “Man’s wisdom is as ignorance to God.” Sadly, followers of such aberrant theology may be “reformed”, but not “transformed”.

    One of the greatest mission fields on the planet for the true message of the Cross of Christ can be found in Calvinist ministries. 

    If/when the dust settles from the reformed movement, millions of young folks will sadly leave quite disillusioned; some will seek the Gospel which saves, but many will sadly be done with it all.”
    Max Revisited

    *

    Max,

    The standard for Calvinism is outlined in John Calvin’s “Institutes Of The Christian Religion” (ICR). This document was sourced from the writings of Augustine in the 4th century. Please note that neither of these two men securely rested their writings upon the writings of the Apostles although they may have made that ‘sincere’ declaration.

    ATB

    Sopy

  137. Janice McKenzie wrote:

    I forwarded the lawsuit to a number of members at Providence and do you know what? Not one single person got upset. Not one that I know of. Where is the righteous rage? So, this latest love story with T4G doesn’t surprise me in the least.

    If you would ever like to talk with me about that, I know more about that situation than you might imagine. Send me an email and we could meet if you are local or talk on the phone.

  138. Dave A A wrote:

    In a moment of weakness, I had a lapse in judgment, and mistakes were made.
    But I did it Just for You!

    This contains all the right buzzwords to signify true gospel repentance.

  139. I’d love to see an open letter calling TGC to repentance for the sins of favoring the “important” over the lesser, making church unsafe for children, giving a platform to and otherwise supporting unrepentant “pastors”, etc. It’s overdue.

  140. @ Sopwith:

    Gee, thanks Sopy. The Eagles are my all time favorite rock band. Now, every time I hear an Eagles song, I'll see Mohler, Piper, MacArthur, and Platt. Which one sings "Lyin' Eyes"?

  141. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    This contains all the right buzzwords to signify true gospel repentance.

    In light of some statements I recently read, I’ll add, “I am very sorry for the grief you have gone through.” and “I am very sorry about the sins that were committed against you.”

  142. CB wrote:

    the laughing movement

    I avoided large portions of that stuff, but I do recall being supposed to sing, “if you-u wa-ant joy-oy you can laugh for it– ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha”.

  143. @ Dave A A:
    I never did experience real peace and joy until I came to the Lord! However during the laughing movement I was shown a video that some friends who were getting into it had. In the video there was some big old girls who had on dresses that were only a little short and tight. They told about being overcome with laughter and couldn’t stop even when they went to a restaurant afterwards and fell on the floor (in the restaruant)rolling around in hysterical laughter. Somehow the mental picture of that along with other testimonies of people roaring like Lions convinced me that they had been manipulated to hysteria or it was a spirit not of the Lord.

  144. __

    “What To Do If Sexual Abuse is Suspected To Have Occurred Within A 501(c)3 Religious Institution.”

    The first priority in a suspected sexual assult violation is for the 501(c)3 religious institution to aid the victim and their family.

    The second priority is for the 501(c)3 religious institution to report suspected sexual abuse to the proper law enforcement authorities , and work with said law enforcement agencies in any way necessary to help in their investigation.

    The third priority is for this religious institution to encourage anyone with information about the suspected abuse to contact law enforcement. 

    The fourth priority is towards proactive safeguarding of the congregation from potential future sexual abuse violations. 

  145. CB wrote:

    the laughing movement

    I remember that episode in Charismatic ranks well. I hope the New Calvinist movement is as short-lived as the laughing movement, but I have a feeling we are all going to be crying before this one is over.

  146. *
    *
      __

    “Margins?”

    hmmm…

      This latest ‘Root Calvinist Incursion’ (the so called New Calvinism) is seen by many to be the source of the religious brain washing effecting the YRR crowd & also possibly linked to the insurgence of sexual abuse cases invading affected 501(c)3 Reformed churches, as well. You’re right Max, time will tell. Wait4It…

    (sadface)

    Q. Why did 17th century English King James order a new translation of the Bible without notes?

    huh?

    King James ordered a new translation of the Bible (published c. 1611) without notes, i.e. see KJV translation rule #6 which stated: “No Marginal Notes at all to be affixed, but only for the explanation of the Hebrew or Greek Words.” ; so ordered primarily for this very reason, 

    What is that ?

    –to aid in the removal of the incursion of the side notes found in the margins of the Geneva Bible translation,

    O.K.

    So What?

    Please Let The TWW Reader Note: These side notes (as found in the original Geneva Bible) explained, in a condensed form, theologian John Calvin’s theology system; as found mainily within the pages of  Institutes Of The Christian Religion.” (ICR)

    King James found them (these notes) undesirable for inclusion of an English Bible translation benificial for the people of his realm.

    Krunch !

    …Good things happen to those who ‘wait upon the Lord’ ?

    Yeah, I think so,

    WAIT 4 HIM…

    hum, hum, hum,  Sweet Hour Of Prayer, Sweet Hour Of Prayer…

    YaHooooooooooo!

    ATB

    Sopy

    🙂

  147. More details of the conference have now been released. The speakers and subjects are expected to include:

    Al “The Dentist” Mohler, speaking on the subject “Extracting truth: one verse at a time”.

    Special guest speaker is C J Mahagony, dealing with the topic “Avoiding wooden interpretations of the bible even if it means going against the grain”.

    Thabiti Anyabwile is conducting a session “Pronouncing all those difficult Old Testament names”.

    John MacArthur will deal with “Is Arminianism a realistic choice?”.

    John Piper is giving this year’s Refutation Paper entitled: “No! It is not acceptable to employ women bouncers in church”

    Those who are interested in Piper’s topic might like the breakout session by Wayne Grudem: “Tracing the meaning of Kephale right back to its source”.

    Dan Phillips will continue his campaign against the Hari-Kari movement: “Don’t be a gutless enabler”.

    Douglas Wilson will be answering all your questions about The Confederal Vision.

    There will be a breakout session from Sovereign Grace Ministries for those who need to.

    The Bishop of Chicago may be speaking – subject to confirmation.

    Organizational:

    Cups of tea will be served by: Tim Challies

    General catering manager: Fred Butler.

    Also: Heretic of the Year award …. and much much more.

    A spokesperson for Watch It Warthog (“Celebrity Deb”) who are partnering with the rank organisation distributing the film rights told our reporter “Honey, this is one film all true Calvinists will be unable to resist”.

    For other news, contact Nick Bulbeck.

  148. Sopwith wrote:

    side notes

    Beware of any pastor packing an ESV Study Bible … it is loaded with Calvinist commentary. The standard English Standard Version (ESV) Bible is the New Calvinist sword of choice and is harmless enough … it doesn’t have such notes. However, to purchase any ESV is to support Crossway, the leading publishing house for reformed theology and its host of New Calvinist leaders.

  149. Ken wrote:

    Douglas Wilson will be answering all your questions about The Confederal Vision.

    One sick puppy amidst an ocean-sized pack of sick puppies.
    Dear God, please deliver us from Together for the Wolf Pack.

  150. __

    “Roll Over T4G?”

    hmmm…

    Nancy2 comment:

    Sopwith: T4G: “We Ain’t Misbehavin…”

    Nancy: : “T4G theme song?”

    Sopwith: If “da ‘shoe’ fits…” 🙂

  151. __

    Max,

    Hey,

    And we so love ‘Reformed’ ( i.e. Calvinist) doctrine, huh?

    (grin)

    Keep up da good work!

    ATB

    Sopy

  152. Janice McKenzie wrote:

    The next Sunday, we visited Providence Baptist in Raleigh and who was the guest speaker? CJ Mahaney, wearing tight pants and looking his casual hip self. It was not announced ahead of time that CJ was preaching and Pastor David Horner introduced him in glowing terms.

    Janice you’ll be happy to know that I tweeted my post asking if God foreordains alleged child sex abuse in SGM directly to David Horner and Providence Baptist. 🙂

  153. Max wrote:

    @ Deb:
    Thanks Deb for the links to your former posts on T4G. You and Dee certainly had the “Fab Four” figured out early on! Thanks for the tremendous service you are providing to keep the spotlight on such organizations and for your intervention to flag abuses of the least of these at the hands authoritarian leaders.
    I’ve been tracking developments within New Calvinism for about 7 years, after getting wise to the message and method of these young reformers. While the Fab Four are no longer young, they are fulfilling their youthful passion for the new reformation through the YRR. Mainline Christianity is still largely uninformed, misinformed, or willingly ignorant about this movement and are easy pickins’ for the likes of the Fab Four and their followers. This ain’t the Third Awakening – the masses are still very much asleep in their pews and the spineless non-Calvinist pulpit won’t sound the alarm to wake them up.

    By “Mainline,” do you mean the “Seven Sisters”? AKA Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, UCC, etc.?