I will let this statement stand on its own for a few hours before I give my opinions on it. You all are welcome to have a go at it.
An Open Letter from Christ Church on Steven Sitler link
In light of the recent court proceedings involving Steven Sitler, and the resultant coverage of those proceedings in the media, we believe that it is necessary for the session of Christ Church to make a public statement of where we have stood in this matter, and where we stand now.
When Steven’s sins and crimes first came to light over a decade ago, as the pastor of Christ Church, I immediately encouraged the person who had discovered them to go to the authorities immediately, which was done right away. All the difficult circumstances that have followed since that time—for the victims, for Steven’s family, and for our church community—are entirely the cascading result of Steven’s initial sins. This entire avalanche is his responsibility. This includes the difficulties created for his own family by his current legal circumstances. In what follows, when we refer to Steven’s repentance, it is repentance for the whole situation that we are talking about.
Second, since Steven’s conviction and conditional release from prison and jail, Steven, as a penitent Christian, has been welcome at Christ Church, and has worshiped regularly with us since that time. On the basis of the death and resurrection of Jesus, he is as welcome as any other sinner is, which is to say, he is very welcome. At the same time, since his conviction, in accordance with the decision of the court and in accordance with an additional and separate determination by the session of Christ Church, Steven has never been to our worship service unaccompanied by a trained chaperone. He usually comes in shortly before the service, sits quietly, and leaves shortly after the service. Our ministry to Steven, in other words, has not been conducted at the expense of any children in our church community, or in a way that puts any of them at risk.
Third, in Moscow, Idaho there are 38 registered sex offenders. The chances are good that the only one you have heard about is Steven Sitler. This is because he provides an easy way for enemies of our ministry to attack us. If he abandoned the faith, or joined another church, or joined in on the attack on us, he would still certainly have the legal consequences of his crimes to deal with, but would probably be allowed to retreat into relative anonymity. As noted above, despite the greatness of his sin, we have not pulled away from him. But it should be noted that despite all the “extra treatment” he is getting, particularly on the Internet, it is to his credit that he has not pulled away from us either.
Fourth, the task of ministering to broken people is one of the central glories of the Christian church. For us, there are two causes of rejoicing in this. The first is that Christ came into the world for the sake of the screwed-up people. “And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick” (Luke 5:31, ESV). We refuse to abandon that glory for the sake of our own reputation or convenience. This is the gospel—through Christ God saves sinners. Second, the church is a hospital for sinners, not a rest home for saints which brings us to the second glory. When we minister to people in this kind of desperate condition, there will be others in the grip of bile and bitterness who use the occasion to attack the hospital staff for “supporting and applauding” the diseases the hospital staff is actually laboring to eradicate. That is, the church’s detractors are people who allege that we, the church, are protecting, covering, or advocating molestation of children. These false allegations are simply slander. But even though such detractors speak their slander, Jesus said that when men despitefully use you, and say all manner of wicked things about you—e.g. that you protect and cover for child molestation—the church’s response is to “rejoice and be exceedingly glad” (Matt. 5:11-12). To be vilified for standing for grace is itself a grace. It is an honor to be so dishonored, a grace to be disgraced. But it is the grace the church glories in, never the sin that made the grace necessary.
Fifth, the fact that outsiders who vilify Steven believe him to be automatically guilty of anything that is alleged of him, as soon as it is alleged, creates a temptation for us to simply go in the opposite direction. We are aware of this temptation and are deliberately guarding against it. We do notbelieve that the temptations that earlier led Steven to molest children are out of his life, and we do believe that he, his wife, his chaperons, his ministers and elders, his fellow church members, his probation officers, and the state of Idaho, have reason and cause to be wary. Our fellowship with Steven does not mean that we think “he’s in, he’s good.” Those who slanderously diagnose our pastoral competence from afar (without bothering to check their facts) do not know anything about how we have taught him, prayed with him, admonished him, rebuked him, checked on his stories, and held him accountable. We do not believe that Steven has been magically “cured,” or that true repentance means anything other than an introduction to a lifetime of repentance.
Sixth, we need to speak with regard to the legal proceedings that are currently underway. Steven was sentenced about ten years ago; thus far he has successfully completed about 9 years of probation. As far as we know, there is no alleged probation violation filed against him. The court is now reviewing details regarding his interaction with his family and the protection of society. The court’s proceedings that were reported in late July and early September were status conferences. We do not complain that there is such a court-supervised process, and we do not object that the state of Idaho takes seriously the responsibility of protecting all children, including Steven’s young son. If some new, serious probation violations were alleged and filed against Steven, and if he were in fact found guilty of these things, and if the court deemed it necessary and just to revoke Steven’s probation and send him to prison, that would occur with the full approval of the session of Christ Church. Moreover, approval of such a sentence would prove no barrier to visiting him there, and seeking to minister to him.
Seventh, in the latest round of accusations, much has been made of the fact that Christ Church approved of Steven’s wedding to Katie through the fact that I officiated at the wedding. First, it should be noted that in our community, weddings are not arranged or determined by the church. Katie and her family had all the facts when she agreed to marry Steven, which was important, but the decision to marry was the couple’s decision, not ours. That said, I officiated at the wedding and was glad to do so. While we do not believe that marriage is an automatic “fix” for the temptations to molest children, we agree with Judge Stegner who approved the wedding and said that ‘an age-appropriate relationship with a member of the opposite sex from Mr. Sitler is one of the best things that can happen to him and to society” (emphasis added). Moreover, if everything is on the table, we do not believe the church has the authority to prohibit or “not allow” a lawful marriage.
On a related front, others have said that I advocated for leniency for Steven after his conviction and during the sentencing phase. In the course of the letter I wrote to the judge (in 2005), I simply reported on the nature of my counsel to Steven after he was caught. In the middle of that report, I said, “It is important to note that I have not offered him any spiritual panacea or ‘quick fix,’ and I believe Steven understands the importance of his need to resist these temptations over the long haul.” In addition, at the conclusion of my letter, with regard to the legal consequences of his behavior, I told the judge that I was “grateful that he [would] be sentenced for his behavior,” and was also grateful that there would be “hard consequences for him in real time.” At the same time, I urged that the civil penalties be “measured and limited.” By “measured and limited,” I meant principled, defined and deliberate. I did not mean trivial, light, or lenient. I was not requesting a slap on the wrist. If you put together what I actually said, you will see that what I expressed to the judge was my desire for hard consequences for Steven that were measured and limited. My hope is that the judge read the letter more carefully than others have since done.
And last, whenever the spirit of accusation takes center stage, preachers of the gospel need to be ready to respond with the only possible answer. Christ came into this world in order to save wretched sinners. Under the control of the accuser, the unbelieving world runs on condemnation, and loves trafficking in such accusations. Since this is the case, I want to finish with the only reply that can be made to such accusations. If God were to mark iniquities, no one could stand (Ps. 130:3). All of us would go down before the wrath of God, like grass before the scythe. No one is righteous, not even one (Rom. 3:10). This is the meaning of the Lord’s saying when dealing with the accusers who wanted to stone the woman caught in adultery (John 8:3). When Jesus said that the one without sin should cast the first stone, He did not mean that sin should not be dealt with. It must be dealt with because God dwells in unapproachable holiness (Is. 6:1-3). But it cannot be dealt with by Pharisees with rocks in their hands and anger on their faces. That is the so-called solution of religiosity, filled to the brim with its own moral impotence. In order to deal with our wickedness—and by wickedness, we mean child molestation, child murder, racial enmity, sodomy, slanderous accusation, fornication, adultery, theft, blasphemy, bitterness, disrespect of parents, pornography, hatred, malice, envy, drunkenness, drug abuse, and more—the Son of God had to die on a gibbet. He died there in order to secure the forgiveness of anyone who calls upon Him, and rose again for that same person’s justification, regardless of what that person has done. As the old hymn puts it, “Jesus, what a friend for sinners, Jesus, lover of my soul.” We are not ashamed of His blood; it is our only hope.
If you have occasion to visit our worship services, the chances are good that Steven Sitler will be there, listening to the proclamation of free grace. It is a proclamation that never gets old. He is welcome to be there with us, and you are most welcome also.
Cordially in Christ,
Douglas Wilson, on behalf of the elders of Christ Church
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And We’re back!
Best regards,
God
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He finally gets round to mentioning Sitler’s son in point six.
But he doesn’t mention the abuse.
Once again, victim overlooked.
The focus and concern here is on Christchurch , firstly, and secondly on Sitler himself.
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More seriously, I trust the community here will ponder the above with all of its usual.
– G.
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He couldn’t saved all that writing and just said, “None of this is our fault!” And of course, as usual, nothing about the victims.
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May wrote:
Short and sweet. Of course, by the way Wilson spins it, Wilson, Christ Church, and Steven Sitler are the true victims.
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Wow. That was hard to read because I was trained to believe this type of logic.
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I chipped in some of my thoughts on Wilson’s post here, in the last thread or the one before it:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/09/04/pedophile-supported-by-doug-wilson-molests-a-baby-christians-there-is-no-excuse-this-must-stop/comment-page-1/#comment-218689
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bet you didn’t ever ask good old uncle steve to babysit your kids though. repentance means change doesn’t it? so, where did repentence come into his life? once a baby raper always a baby raper. but that’s not what jesus meant when he said suffer the little children to come to me is it?
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The Blood of Jesus reconciles us with The Father, but it doesn’t undo crimes. A murderer can “repent” and join a church, but his victim remains dead.
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Some thoughts on his point #7:
1) He seems to argue both ways. First, he argues that he could not stop it. Then he argues that he not only wouldn’t if he could but thought it was a very good idea.
2) As a pastor, I view the whole–I cannot stop them from marrying–argument lame. It is true. They could get married with or without his support. But make no mistake, he supported this marriage. He OFFICIATED over the marriage! Pastor Wilson certainly had a say over whether or not HE officiated or used church grounds to do so.
Y’all know more about this situation than I do. As an outsider and a pastor looking at these arguments, I just wanted to point out those glaring issues. This pastor is clearly supporting the marriage. To claim otherwise is not being truthful. The question then becomes whether it was or is wise for him to support such a relationship…from the little I have seen, I would be concerned.
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No one who has contact with this “community” (that is a quote and not a scare quote) or any of its like-minded communities knows that the elders of the church and the parents of both bride and groom have much more than an advisory role. Wilson makes it seems as though he just donned his robe and stood at the front of the church as an agent of the state, which is ironic in Reconstructionist/Federal Vision world. He gave no explanation for why they counseled that couple to marry except to quote a judge of the state, which is another irony in Recon/Federal Vision world. This incident, like The Village abuse and malpractice, shows the true nature of the system. PR statements do not erase the underlying facts.
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Upon rereading parts of Wilson’s response again.
Wilson writes,
He writes that in regards to the marriage of the pedophile to Katie.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but hasn’t Wilson in the past written posts complaining about homosexual marriage being legalized on his blog?
Has he written any posts in support Kim Davis, the clerk who refused to issue marriage licenses to homosexual couples, when homosexual marriage is now considered legal?
(I’m not here arguing one way or the other about Kim Davis, only pointing to a possible double standard held by Wilson.)
I thought sincere Christians were not just concerned about what is legal, but by what is moral, by way of biblical principles.
There is something amiss with a guy who rants against homosexual marriage in some blog posts but is peachy keen with pedophiles marrying, and then on top of that, having children with the spouse that he later abuses.
(You had to know that was at least a possibility if a pedo marries and has kids.)
So while it may be legal in Wilson’s state for a pedo to marry an adult (and to have children by that spouse), is it moral, wise, or healthy? I don’t think it is. I think it’s at least questionable.
I haven’t even finished reading all the rest of Wilson’s post yet. (I skimmed the last half.)
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I will be commenting on Doug Wilson’s letter later today using primary documents to refute statements Doug makes in his self-serving letter.
Proverbs 19:9 – A false witness shall not be unpunished, and [he that] speaketh lies shall perish.
Rose Huskey
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Wilson says, “Moreover, if everything is on the table, we do not believe the church has the authority to prohibit or “not allow” a lawful marriage.”
I will merely observe that I do not believe that Wilson thinks that he is obligated to officiate at every marriage which the state allows. So he must be referring to prohibitions or regulations regarding this type of marriage in the Bible. Which is silent on this type of marriage. Very odd reasoning. His statement reads like, “My hands were tied. What could I do?”
However, the statement that he and “the church” do not have authority should be framed. Or at least screen-capped.
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@ Rose Huskey:
Rose, where may we find your blog or web site? Is there an URL you could post for us so that we can read your post later?
Thank you for speaking out against Wilson’s various damaging and kooky teachings.
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@ Gram3:
That was my first thought. Disingenuous. Don’t try to pretend you don’t RULE that church, Doug.
There is so much that infuriates me about his statement I don’t even know where to begin. My mind is overloaded.
Please, Rose, I’m looking forward to seeing your primary documents and thoughts on the matter.
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You could deconstruct this letter point by point but that would be longer than the entire blog post. The letter is purported to be from “the church” but then quickly segues to “I the pastor…”. The church = the pastor. Based on the information provided so far I suspect Doug is a narcissist and Steven is a form of psychopath. The narcissist is so full of his own sense of self that he can never be wrong, ever. Psychopaths can be very charming as they will use any method to achieve the goal of self gratification. In this case he feeds the narcissist ego knowing the keys to a veritable playground are available. If he gets caught, there will be no true remorse because he will retain the memories of his actions. He will never be executed for his crime and I don’t think that he’s scared of any retribution from the Almighty – he hasn’t faced any so far. He cares nothing about his fellow humans and will spend the rest of his life seeking his own gratification. And he will continue to manipulate this community and the system for as long as he can. As for the other 38 offenders on the list, there are a wide range of offences that can receive the designation “sex offender”, from obtaining child porn to rape (not necessarily serial rape) so you can’t compare.
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I’m confused by some things here…” If some new, serious probation violations were alleged and filed against Steven, and if he were in fact found guilty of these things, and if the court deemed it necessary and just to revoke Steven’s probation and send him to prison, that would occur with the full approval of the session of Christ Church. Moreover, approval of such a sentence would prove no barrier to visiting him there, and seeking to minister to him.” What does that mean that the session would approve of his probation being revoked? What say do they have in the matter? Also, when do they excommunicate him instead of continuing to minister to him? Isn’t excommunication a core practice of this church (I could be wrong, just seems like some of these reformed churches really relish in that).
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Can anyone confirm what Judge Stegner allegedly said about the marriage being a good thing? I thought I read that he was concerned about the possible children?
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Just a quick note: DW uses a lot of nice religious words and phrases in his writings (this being no exception) which tends to fool some people because they don’t know that he’s part of the Federal Vision movement which has literally redefined almost every basic theological term to mean something other than what it historically means. So when DW talks about the gospel, or repentance, or salvation, or any other theological word or phrase, you should never assume that he means by it anything like what you – or any major confessional document – means by it.
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nmgirl wrote:
That part bothered me, too. I hope Rose Huskey has primary documents to refute this. Like you said, the judge was very concerned about possible children. Maybe he had no legal grounds to prevent the wedding. As Rose said:
http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2011-June/076772.html
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It’s all about them and their beliefs….and to Hades with everyone else.
Who in their right mind would encourage a child molester to have children? It’s like encouraging a recovering alcoholic to be a bar tender.
Does this infant son not have a right to live in a home without a convicted molester as his caretaker?
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“rejoicing in this” ?
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FYI, it seems the new argument on twitter is “Do you live in Moscow?” “Do you know these people personally?” Or an iteration of same. It’s a lame argument, but it’s the one that’s being thrown out there. I just responded with, “I recognize evil and have read the documentation.” I got a “You didn’t answer my ?” (WAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!…or at least that’s how I read it!). It wasn’t until I saw others asking the same ?, (in defense of DW) that I realized it’s their new talking point.
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That Bad Dog wrote:
Precisely. People who have not observed the Recons/Federal Visionists over a few decades have no idea what the system is about and how they propagate it through obfuscation and redefinition of words.
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Douglas Wilson & Co are straight-up gaslighting on Twitter.
What?? Nothing to see here!
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GovPappy wrote:
The one that takes the cake is the tweet from this morning “since our involvement began, no child has been molested.” -Douglas Wilson
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Sarah K wrote:
As if people in Moscow never read a national or international news story and form opinions on it? Do they refrain from discussing issues that happen outside of Moscow? Wilson has been up in arms on the recent ruling of the Supreme Court in D.C. Does he live in D.C.? Does he know the justices of the Supreme Court personally? That game plays both ways.
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Mae wrote:
According to the theology of Doug Wilson, Steven Sitler is the head of his household. Steven Sitler is the infant’s authority. At the same time, the infant needs to be protected (through government agencies) FROM the man who is his authority. And Doug Wilson has no problem with this.
Doug Wilson will now bow to government authorities even if the morality of the situation is called into question. At other times he believes the church should not involve government authorities due to their lack of Christian morality. Interesting and sad.
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Mae wrote:
Not in Wilson’s view. Kids and women don’t matter, they exist only to be subject to the whims of men no matter how perverted.
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Before even reading the statement, upon scrolling from top to bottom, it is apparent it is written by a true narcissist. Lengthy, long winded, lack of empathy? Now I’ll go read it.. FWIW up to this point, I have not known much about Doug Wilson and Christ Church.
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I do not know the heart of Mr. Sitler. If he has repented then grace will certainly bring him into eternity with Christ and heal him of his perversion in the next life. But grace cannot always heal certain issues in this world. I have seen drug abusers pray fervently for healing to no avail. Likewise, DW completely avoids the issue of pedophilias tendency to be a life long issue and whether or not this man is safe to live with a wife and a child. He says nothing of what has been alleged of Sitler’s acts toward his son. This is so concerning and telling.
He admits that Sitler has a chaperone when he attends church. So what practical issues exist for the wife and child when this guy needs a chaperone, and what about their safety and comfort???? My pastor counseled us before marriage to be sure the union would be healthy. He said he would not marry us if he identified any concerning issues that may need to be resolved. I guess DW is not pastoral then in providing guidance. If you want to get married and its legal, he’s your officiant. What a disingenuous statement in that regard. Hey, I had nothing to do with this! I guess he’s no different than a guy working a Vegas chapel, but we know that is not the case and he DID encourage the marriage.
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@ Bridget:
Yes, the Wilson Kirk practices this garbage. What I do not understand is why the state social services/children’s welfare agency, has not shut the home down. Either remove the molesting dad, or remove the child. This environment of having to chaperone a dad, at all times,is insane. There is no way this child can be protected physically and emotionally from this cult.
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‘I told the judge that I was “grateful that he [would] be sentenced for his behavior,” and was also grateful that there would be “hard consequences for him in real time.” At the same time, I urged that the civil penalties be “measured and limited.” By “measured and limited,” I meant principled, defined and deliberate. I did not mean trivial, light, or lenient.’
This is one of the most informative pieces to me. Doug Wilson clearly knows the extent of Sitler’s crimes & believes he takes them seriously, that there should be ‘hard consequences’. Given what Steven Sitler did though, the scale & extent of his appalling crimes, who actually believes a year in jail & 9 years probation (with the chance to marry, raise a family etc) actually constitutes any kind of ‘hard’ consequence? I certainly don’t- legal people here help me out please – what kind of crimes can people be sentenced to a year for? This is a bewilderingly pathetic ‘consequence’ for actual acts of paedophilia in my opionion. He should have had his liberty removed for far far far longer, & just given society a break from having to deal with the threat to its children that he poses. It just underlines that no matter the ‘forgiven sinner’ rhetoric Doug Wilson downplays Sitler’s crimes to a staggering extent.
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A persecution complex (us-against-them thinking) covers a multitude of sins.
In light of the recent court proceedings involving Steven Sitler, and the resultant coverage of those proceedings in the media…
The chances are good that the only one you have heard about is Steven Sitler. This is because he provides an easy way for enemies of our ministry to attack us.
We refuse to abandon that glory for the sake of our own reputation or convenience… When we minister to people in this kind of desperate condition, there will be others in the grip of bile and bitterness who use the occasion to attack … That is, the church’s detractors are people who allege that we, the church, are protecting, covering, or advocating molestation of children. These false allegations are simply slander. But even though such detractors speak their slander, Jesus said that when men despitefully use you, and say all manner of wicked things about you—e.g. that you protect and cover for child molestation—the church’s response is to “rejoice and be exceedingly glad” (Matt. 5:11-12). To be vilified for standing for grace is itself a grace. It is an honor to be so dishonored, a grace to be disgraced. But it is the grace the church glories in, never the sin that made the grace necessary.
Fifth, the fact that outsiders who vilify Steven believe him to be automatically guilty of anything that is alleged of him, as soon as it is alleged… (How about protecting the child just in case rather than protecting the already-proven, already-convicted, registered sex offender?
I could say a lot more…
And don’t believe what he says about First, it should be noted that in our community, weddings are not arranged or determined by the church. Katie and her family had all the facts when she agreed to marry Steven, which was important, but the decision to marry was the couple’s decision, not ours. That’s not how the courtship culture works. The social and theological pressures in that community are enormous, and Wilson is, in my considered opinion based on my experience hearing his teachings and attending a church with similar practices, not being honest here. I would go so far as to call him a liar, in the finest tradition of the serpent in the garden, or Satan in the temptation of Christ, with his twisting of facts and scriptures.
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Andrew wrote:
Yes, but you are only excommunicated for crossing the will of the elders. So long as you pretend to go along with them and stroke their egos, you’re safe.
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Vomiting….again.
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Uncle Dad wrote:
Well said.
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@ Rose Huskey:
I look forward to hearing from you.
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Gram3 wrote:
Too funny!
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Andrew wrote:
Good points that I would like to have answered.
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That Bad Dog wrote:
That is true.
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Mae wrote:
As well as a mother who doesn’t seem to understand what she is supposed to be looking for.
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@ EV:
Nothing ‘logical’ about excuse-making when a small child is victimized
repentance? none on the part of the ‘proud’, is there? No.
And Christ came into this world as a little child, and still they can’t understand . . . so sad, this.
One always hopes people can be ‘better than that’ in accepting their role in a disaster, and correcting course to a better direction in future;
but I get it that this church will do nothing of the sort.
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The self-righteous, arrogant, vapid, and basic CYA attitude of this letter is revolting.
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XianJaneway wrote:
And his list of sins do not include any of those things. You know: narcissism, lying and deceit, spitefulness, sexism, neglect/abuse, brutishness, pseudo-intellectualism
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Cheap vintage whine by Doug Wilson: “…whenever the spirit of accusation takes central stage [that is, when things get so bad that crowds of people are upset], preachers of the gospel [only them] need to be ready to respond with the only possible answer….” Which is: “Everyone is a sinner!!! It’s harrrrddd to be human!!”
Poor dear.
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@ dee:
Totally agree. It’s not normal for a mother to need “training” on how to identify, sexual arousal and abuse.
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Mae wrote:
I have to wonder how much the training was undermined by the inherent, overt and covert patriarchy promoted by Douglas Wilson and practiced by Christ Church?
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Patrice wrote:
He’s probably a little cranky because Nancy left some dishes in the sink for more than 5 minutes. Or maybe she had a piece of candy or something without his express permission.
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mirele wrote:
My experience with people immersed in this culture makes me think that it is not a matter of whether her observations matched her training but rather what she should do when there is an apparent conflict of “authority.” In this case, she is under the immediate authority of her husband, the offender, and they are both under the authority of her church elders. The state trained her, but the state is an inferior authority and, in some respects, only temporary until the Kirk converts the world to Kirkness. I believe she resolved that conflict by suppressing her knowledge in some way or even hiding her knowledge of unlawful behavior by Sitler. I don’t know anything at all about Scientology, but what you write about it has reminded me a lot of the totalist thinking within Recon/Federal Vision circles.
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That Bad Dog wrote:
Thank you for that reminder.
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Jack wrote:
I could have quoted this entire comment. Excellent analysis.
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Gram3 wrote:
Or it might be his beard. Think how extra hard it is for bearded men when they have a bad hair day.
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From: The Doug Wilson Story, http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/ngier/Wilson.htm
“Were I to be again reduced to the chains of slavery, next to that enslavement, I should regard being the slave of a religious master the greatest calamity that could befall me. For of all slaveholders whom whom I have ever met, religious slaveholders were the worst. I have ever found the meanest and basest, the most cruel and cowardly, of all others. It was my unhappy lot not only to belong to a religious slaveholder, but to live in a community of such religionists.”
– Frederick Douglass, abolitionist, feminist, and former slave
Likewise, perhaps being under the care of a religious pedophile is the worst, and in the community of such religionists. The Duggar dilemma also comes to mind. (religionists as opposed to truly godly people)
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If allegations of him molesting his son are true, then a repentent person would not need a court order to remove himself. The repentent person, grieving his act, would remove himself willfully and admit to his perverted act freely. That is a very simple, logical standard to show how repentent this man really is.
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No humility here…step aside people, nothing to see. Constant use of the term “we” instead of “I” gives it away..trying to deflect away from himself. If Wilson sees himself as such a true intellectual…let him read up on pedophiles and the rate of recovery…pretty unlikely. I think the Creator of the Universe wrote some things about this….involving a millstone.
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He doesn’t believe the church has the authority to prohibit or not allow a lawful marriage? As my dad would have said, “BULL HOCKEY.” When I got married in an evangelical church you had to take a 12-week class, a personality test, and meet with a mentoring couple a certain number of hours . . . and they could still turn you down.
And my current pastor has spoken before about turning down couples who just want a pretty location to get married. Certainly Wilson didn’t have to officiate. (In fact, that is the whole thing that is kind of ridiculous about churches getting all alarmist about same-sex marriage – nobody tells a church who they can and cannot marry and there is no way that is going to change.)
If they aren’t going to refuse any lawful marriages, when can same-sex couples expect to be married at Christ Church?
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I’m absolutely sickened by the Twitter discussions I’ve been having. 🙁 Even people I trust are talking about my “Rhetoric of unforgiveness.” 🙁 Seriously??? What does forgiveness have to do with this? Can’t a person be forgiven and be in jail? Can’t a person be forgiven and prevented from sinning again?
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From Professor Nick Gier of the U of Idaho, Moscow:
“…there are good, decent people who attend Wilson’s 800-member Christ Church. One can usually spot these people because they frequently speak of Wilson’s goal of achieving “truth, goodness, and beauty.” These fine folks need to be reminded that their leaders have not always told the truth, that condoning slavery is not good, and that calling for the execution of homosexuals is just plain ugly.”
http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/ngier/nsasins.htm
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The first thing I noticed was what was not in it:
1) This church must have known Katie about as long as Steve – nothing say how they provided her with help, good advice on her situation, etc.
2) There is a baby boy involved here with one terrible and one currently inadequate parent – nothing say how the church will care about this little person.
Only the male counts in this world view.
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One word entered my mind when I read that statement by Doug Wilson…
That statement is bullshit. I’m going to be blunt.
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JYJames wrote:
Oh, my. I remember Doug Wilson (or was it Steve Wilkins?) talking about how beneficial slavery was, especially because of the christian slaveholders introducing the slaves to Christ? How benevolent the christian slave holders were. How the slaves were actually members of the family, and better off than if they had been left to their own devices.
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Retha wrote:
(The baby is a male, but not being the head of a household, he doesn’t really count.)
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Kari wrote:
That was my first thought, too.
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Retha wrote:
That’s why I want to know, Retha. Was Katie and her family made aware of the danger to her/their children in the future and the rate of recidivism in this type of crime? Or was the situation glossed over by presenting the “he repented” aspect. Makes a difference.
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Whenever I visit his blog and read the comments my Cult Meter pegs at 10.
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I missed the part about the concern for the baby. I missed the part about the concern for the child’s future protection. It is all about Sitler.
And I’m still struck by his statement “there are two causes of rejoicing in this.” There should be no rejoicing in this. Love does not rejoice at such things. To use words similar to the apostle Paul used at his own suffering is vapid theology.
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Gram3 wrote:
He could have learned about pedophiles and said, “No. I won’t marry you. Given the circumstances and the possibility that this marriage will result in children. No.”
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Clay Crouch wrote:
I saw your post at dougwils and got a chuckle from it in an otherwise dreary tale of woe. Everyone should have a Cult-o-Meter and not leave home without it on Sunday.
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Bridget wrote:
Absolutely. IMO that would be the very least of his responsibility to Katie and any future children which the Kirk Kulture would mandate that they produce. I think his protestations are an attempt to deflect from his failure of a duty to protect, and especially in that system where the main benefit to females is supposedly protection. It is sickening, but that is not news to me coming from Wilson and his fellow travelers.
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JYJames wrote:
Fascinating!
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Wilson’s response gives the impression that he’s up somewhere in the clouds, or in an ivory tower, separated from the dust and dirt of actual life, secure that his precepts apply to every situation, so that there is no reason for him to grieve over any of his actions.
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I don’t have a blog or website. In fact, I don’t even use social media.
I have primary documents, court related documents, letters, sheriff’s office reports etc. on this case. Because I live in a small town in North Idaho where most folks know each other or at least are a friend of a friend it’s very easy to obtain documents, interviews with law enforcement etc. A friend and I try to to attend every court hearing for Steven Sitler. It is important to access information through public records requests to ensure accuracy about a case. I stop by the Clerk of the Court’s office in our local courthouse and fill out, or simply request access to Steven Sitler’s file. Many parts of it are publicly available (some are sealed for legal reasons). Our court has a small copy fee.
I am still working on getting things organized to refute Doug’s claims, it may take until tomorrow, because of other obligations today. It is however, not a difficult task.
Blessings,
Rose
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Here’s a pertinent Doug Wilson blast from the past:
“The recent revelations of homosexual abuse of boys by various predatory priests over the course of many years is the kind of problem that I think should be addressed (in the civil realm only) with a tall tree and a short rope. Not only am I not ashamed of thinking this (because of Leviticus, in context), I believe that those who are willing to defend such predators should be ashamed of themselves. But there is no reason why such a homosexual predator, justly condemned to die, could not turn to Christ in faith and be received by Him into glory.” –http://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/one-of-those-circus-ponies.html
Also, what’s with this “Jesus died on a gibbet” thing?
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@ Rose Huskey:
I look forward to receiving any information of Sitler. Here is something to consider. If you would like, you could post documents, etc. on this website.I would like to help you in any way that I can.
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@ dee:
Professor Nick Gier of the U of Idaho, Moscow had student Doug Wilson in class. The professor documents an initial profound respect for his student and then a 180:
http://www.tomandrodna.com/notonthepalouse/Wilson_Gier_013107.htm
http://sandpointreader.com/moscows-christ-church-neo-confederates-and-tolerance/
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/1/11/191549/134
http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2015-June/100669.html
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2004/plagiarism-it
http://federal-vision.blogspot.com/2007/12/heres-link.html
http://federal-vision.blogspot.com/2008/03/end-thereof.html – interesting comments
etc.
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I can’t figure out who or what hosts this website, but many court documents and letters are here, along with all his mug shots for being a registered sex offender.
http://www.tomandrodna.com/CR_2005_02027/
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@ That Bad Dog:
He, like many of the men in his circle of BFFs, focus on homosexuality as the ultimate evil of our generation. Somehow or another, though, pedophiles who claim repentance, are welcomed with open arms. If Jimmy Carter claims to be a Christian, they will most assuredly disagree with him. But, if a pedophile claims to have seen the light-Glory hallelujah!
As for gibbet,which is a gallows since I looked it up and can now sound smart, Doug likes to show us that he is smarter than most everyone in the world. To prove this, he uses words that can be picked u by an schmo on the internet. So, I think Doug is a mooncalf. See. I’m briliiant.
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mirele wrote:
No doubt it is in play. Yet, as much as I might want to give her some slack, I can’t. It’s her loving duty to protect her child, a mother should, defend and fight off anything/anyone,that could/ would harm her child.
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mirele wrote:
Me too. I was saying at Julie Anne’s blog earlier, unless or until more information becomes available showing she’s fully competent, at this time, I regard the mother as being another victim.
She chronologically may be 27 or 30 or however many years old, but since she was (I take it) raised under a comp/ patriarchy world view, she is probably emotionally and relationally more like a child (and a frightened child at that).
She probably doesn’t know about boundaries or about being assertive and/or is too scared to assert herself to others, especially the males in her life.
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dee wrote:
Yeah, I get that. I just mean, since when did Jesus die on a gallows/gibbet? Is that some kind of new esoteric “secret handshake” doctrine that only the initiated cool kids know about?
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from Julie Anne:
http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/09/04/pastor-doug-wilson-a-serial-pedophile-and-the-real-victims/
“…the letter that Doug Wilson sent to the judge essentially defending Sitler and asking for leniency. Yes, you read that correctly – leniency for a serial pedophile! Doug Wilson told the Judge Stegner he had been providing counseling to Steven Sitler for only SIX times…”
Sounds like an uninformed, untrained pastor (with regard to pedophiles) would like to step in and declare a miracle, with his (the pastor’s) name on it. Overreach much?
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dee wrote:
Cults not only have “special” knowledge they have own special words. Kind of reminds of a kirk, wherever the heck that came from
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@ Bunsen Honeydew:
Special knowledge
Special lingo and
Special powers – see the link to Julie Anne’s blog and her comment above at 6:22pm.
All around special.
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The thing that continually blows my mind is the complete lack of anything resembling humanity from D Wilson and his direct constituents and distant supporters, but it’s not just this story, it’s just about every story that y’all release. It’s really shocking. This whole statement was inhuman.
All I see is Gospelese, “FORGIVENESS CURES ALL!” minimizing, man-o-gawd shielding, camp warfare…. It’s really discouraging. “It’s inhuman to be so cold.”
I can usually process this stuff with some humor and a few Twitter pictures, but it gets harder with every story. I’m just a bit shell-shocked and angry this time around.
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Daisy wrote:
ROFL i would just ROFL all day long if he got inundated with gay couples wanting to be married in his church!
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Jesus said: “Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.”
Matthew 18:10
So this means that God has been informed of every single instance when a paedophile harms a child and this also means that men who are called of Jesus to minister would have been informed by God either through prayer, vision, quickening, revelation, a word of wisdom personally or through someone in the body of Christ of the sin, and commanded to take action about it. Men who claim to be spiritual would have heard this long before secular authorities brought it to their attention. This means that men who purport to follow Jesus and dont do anything to keep a little child from this evil being perpetrated upon them have shut their ears and have heardened their hearts. I mean really, God could even send them a text, a tweet, a blog, anything to deliver the child from the evil. oh wait, HE HAS BEEN!!!!
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gee Doug Wilson cant even say that Jesus died on a cross…i had to look up his new idea of how Jesus died, on a ‘gibbet”. In the same way Doug re-difines “measured and limited” to not actually mean ‘limited’
and while saying he doesnt think that a marriage would keep steven sitler from being a child molestor he totally agrees with some judge to throw a young impressionable woman to this pedophile because…””we agree with Judge Stegner who approved the wedding and said that ‘an age-appropriate relationship with a member of the opposite sex from Mr. Sitler is one of the best things that can happen to him and to society”
oh and counseling the young woman to marry him and officiating the wedding is not the same as forcing her to do anything btw. its not like God would have expected him to take a righteous stand and counsel her against this or maybe God would have told him to refuse to officiate, just for the record so everyone knows, doug wilson couldnt stop it. He says: “Moreover, if everything is on the table, we do not believe the church has the authority to prohibit or “not allow” a lawful marriage.”
i hope that no one goes to the church with the viscious dog logo. His letter can almost be taken as a shout-out to 38 other registered sex-offenders to join his church (perhaps he has 38 naive virgins he will marry off to them also) Doug Wilsons ‘open letter’ is nothing but a justification of himself and a pedophile and has not one word about the damage done to the victims and shows no regard for their welfare at all.
Jesus was really upset when those in the house that was called by Gods name was used to sell sacrifices, how much more so with the sacrificing of virgins and little children? yes i am upset.
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Bunsen Honeydew wrote:
The owner of that website is Tom Hansen and he’s from Moscow.
http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/09/04/pastor-doug-wilson-a-serial-pedophile-and-the-real-victims/comment-page-1/#comment-291670
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refugee wrote:
Yep, that is Doug Wilson. I am not sure he said that directly. But he says such things as their being harmony among the races in the antebellum South that have not existed in other societies, and that was based on Christianity. And he says that many slaves thanked God for the servitude. Here is his and Steve Wilkins lovely little work:
http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/slavery/southern_slavery_as_it_was.htm
And, the really sad thing is this vile thing is found, once again, on a reformed site. I am pretty sure Amazon pulled it for attribution errors. Also, remember who Wilson’s buddies are. Dee pointed them out on the other article.
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“free grace”, “cheap grace”, is a lie, we only get grace when we confess and forsake our sins and have Jesus Christ as our Lord, grace is not something dispensed with pretend words from a pretend pulpit. When Jesus is our Lord our lives reflect Him and not our feeble attempts to cover up for pedophiles who we have encouraged to marry innocent niave woman, have children, and promise to still visit in prison even if they repeatedly rape children.”But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:” Matthew 3:7-8
And speaking of “really spiritual men who claim to know Jesus” isnt the other master paedophile harborer, who was so concerned about keeping children in his Acts 29 congregation safe that he went on vacation, back now?
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GovPappy wrote:
Doug Wilson will do that to you. For a long time I couldn’t even read his blog posts without triggering memories of my former cult. I’ve gotten a lot stronger over the past couple of years (my expression sports a permanent eye-roll), and they don’t bother me as much now. He’s a piece of work, though.
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GovPappy wrote:
No, not human, not like everyone else. Superior, above it all, special: see above at 6:25pm. On a spiritual quest not to improve oneself but to prove something:
@ Bunsen Honeydew:special knowledge
@dee: special lingo
from Julie Anne’s blog: special powers to heal miraculously beyond professional expertise and experience
– resulting in a twisted interpretation of God’s people and His power. What one calls faith can really be folly as some have discovered in their narcissistic declarations and demonstrations that fail. Sad truth: this is failing a child.
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From an audio interview with Anna Salter about pedos that Velour linked to earlier:
Predators Among Us: Interview With Dr. Anna Salter
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/sottradionetwork/2013/12/08/predators-among-us-interview-with-dr-anna-salter
Around the 1.22.29 mark, Anna Salter mentions that pedophiles getting married to an adult does not halt their sexual attraction to children.
She even raised the example of Sandusky. The guy was married and yet still molesting children while he was married.
Wilson seemed to be speaking a bit out of both sides of his mouth in his blog post:
If you don’t believe marriage is a fix for a pedo, why did you preside over the marriage of a pedo to a desperate- to- be- married and seemingly over protected and naive young woman?
How is the marriage of a pedo to an adult a “best thing.” What does Wilson mean by that?
It certainly didn’t turn out to be “for the best” since the pedo has admitted to either desiring his own son in a sexual manner, or he molested the child.
——–
@ Rose Huskey wrote:
“I don’t have a blog or website. In fact, I don’t even use social media.”
Okay, thank you so much for letting me know.
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Beakerj wrote:
i totally agree with your comment. Doug wilson asked the court for leniency and probably had sat through the reading of this victims family’s statement to the court: http://www.tomandrodna.com/CR_2005_02027/Private_Letter.htm
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Gram3 wrote:
An excellent observation. That is one of the big selling points of their quackery but they can’t even get that right.
I’m not sure if Wilsonian complementarianism is as big into the “women are equal in worth just not in role” gag, but if he is, actions speak louder than words. They end up treating women like garbage.
The other Doug molested his nanny, Lourdes. Douglas Phillips was also keen on all this patriarchal, gender complementarian, chivalry stuff and claimed to be into protecting and valuing women.
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Daisy wrote:
The other Doug told the story of the Titanic saying that back in the day, before that nasty feminism, men put women and children in the life boats first.
But as Katie Botkin points out, Doug had no life boat for her and was only interested in his own pleasure and then saving his own skin once the story broke.
http://kbotkin.com/2014/04/15/in-which-lourdes-petitions-for-a-lifeboat/
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GovPappy wrote:
For me it is that we see the same pattern repeat over and over again. The names and exact details change, but it is the same plot line.
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Will M wrote:
This is standard Rushdoonyism. God ordained the various Orders of Creation, with white men on top. Without that ordained order, they maintain there would be chaos. We see much the same argumentation out of CBMW, and I believe that is because Grudem caught Rushdoonyism from Rushdoony in the 70’s. If everyone would keep to their proper place and not get uppity, everyone would get along and God would not be displeased.
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Bunsen Honeydew wrote:
^YES!
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dee wrote:
If you look at ‘images’ when you look up gibbet, it is nothing like the death that Jesus Christ died of. it shows a metal circular cage to hold the person, no piercing of His hands and feet. i surmise that he isnt trying to look smarter than everyone but is totaly bereft of any relationship to Jesus or the cross of calvary and therefore cant speak of it. they changed the truth of God into a lie.
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Gram3 wrote:
Frederick Douglass would disagree. See link. Quote at the top of the page.
http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/ngier/Wilson.htm
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GovPappy wrote:
me too.
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@ That Bad Dog:
Wikipedia says crucifixion can be classified as “gibbeting”…but yeah, in practice, this was the first time I’d ever heard a cross described as a gibbet. Heard “tree” and “rood” but never gibbet.
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In reading Malachi 2, there is a pertinent passage that shouts out the same message of rebuke for those who claim to be leaders over God’s people, yet fail miserably.
“It’s the job of priests to teach the truth. People are supposed to look to them for guidance. The priest is the messenger of God-of-the-Angel-Armies. But you priests have abandoned the way of priests.
Your teaching has messed up many lives. You have corrupted the covenant of priest Levi. God-of-the-Angel-Armies says so.
And so I am showing you up for who you are. Everyone will be disgusted with you and avoid you because you don’t live the way I told you to live, and you don’t teach my revelation truly and impartially.”
Malachi 2:7-9
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@ JYJames:
Just for clarity, I disagree with Wilson and Wilkins, but they are following Rushdoony’s line of thought about Creation Order. Even *if* it were true that *some* slaves were better off here than in Africa–and I am not saying that is true–that would *not* make the enslavement of other people a good thing itself, which is basically the argument that Rushdoonyites make. It is poor reasoning because it is merely a rationale for people to do something wrong with God’s supposed approval. This is a twisted, sick system.
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@ Barb Orlowski:
From another blog, someone commented that basically the job of a pastor is to tell the truth.
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Gram3 wrote:
That same logic is used for patriarchy: that some women are better off with men making decisions at times, and even though benevolent leadership does exist in this world, it doesn’t justify patriarchy.
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@ Rose Huskey:
We’re all waiting with bated breath. Praying Wilson doesn’t get to control the “information” that’s out there.
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JYJames wrote:
Now that’s an oversimplification I love.
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JYJames wrote:
Both are symptoms of white males with severe inferiority complexes to the point where they have to invent doctrines that automatically make them superior to others based on their race and sex which they then disguise as some sort of paternalism because they need to ‘lead and guide’ those ‘poor unfortunates’
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@ Mara:
Wilson had a similar response to the Doug Phillips mess when it broke. His blog post had little concern for the nanny, gave Doug all the benefit of the doubt, and accused those who were upset at the alleged abuse of this young woman as the “sinners”, for cheering Phillip’s demise. Again, no concern for the victim and pointing the finger at others outside the patriarchy tribe.
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Bunsen Honeydew wrote:
Thank you for this link. I have read a number of the documents, including Doug Wilson’s leniency letter. I was sickened to read the letter written by the parents of a two year old victim. I wonder how many victims there have been.
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Gram3 wrote:
i have a totally different take on the african slaves theory put forth by white american ‘christians’ it starts with the fact that not one writer of the bible was a white person and ends with cauciasian americans have portrayed to the world that they wrote it and are God’s chosen people and they have done this for centuries to gain land and financial benefits. King James was a guy that paid to have the bible translated into english but other nations have had american preachers insinuate that no one would have the gospel without him. i am shocked by what american preachers preach when they are in other countries. God loves African Americans so much that Jesus sent his disciple Philip south to the top administrator of Candace the Queen of Ethopia to hear the good news, be baptised and return to tell the whole continent. That was shortly after Jesus rose from the grave and just after the day of Pentecost. (Acts 8:26) Americans approach the rest of the world and minorities in our own country as if we are the originators of the gospel and are the only ones that can read a bible and are the only christians when we as a country show very little of Christ in our actions. Caucasians have perverted the gospel of Jesus Christ so much that they have convinced themselves and their children that God is ok with the brutal massacre and land stealing of millions of Native Americans who were often more Godly than themselves, and that God wanted them to make slaves of african americans.
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@ JYJames:
Yes, it is exactly the argument, including the appeal to some supposed Creation Order, as the Bayly Boys so helpfully demonstrate.
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JeffT wrote:
That explains why Frederick Douglass said the worst masters were the religious ones. They use religion not as self-improvement but as a means to prove something to the world. http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/ngier/Wilson.htm
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@ sandy:
I think that wicked people will pervert God’s word and people who love God will love other people and not use the Bible to oppress others. I also think that history has recorded that people take advantage of other people, regardless of their ethnic heritage or nation or professed religion or philosophy. As I’ve said before, bad behavior is often a crime of opportunity. But I think we may be drifting off topic.
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DW is frighteningly eloquent and convincing. This statement of his reminds me of the “Voice of Saruman.”
From The Lord of the Rings:
“[His voice was] low and melodious, its very sound an enchantment […] it was a delight to hear the voice speaking, all that it said seemed wise and reasonable, and desire woke in them by swift agreement to seem wise themselves … for those whom it conquered the spell endured while they were far away and ever they heard that soft voice whispering and urging them.”
The Two Towers Book III Chapter X p.222
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Gram3 wrote:
So perhaps the crime of opportunity was preying on and building an empire in an obscure village of unsuspecting folks lacking wider scrutiny – to the point of declaring doctrines of men dominating women, whites over blacks, and now sanctioning predators instead of protecting children. Is the village judicial process dysfunctional? A blog that follows the story notes:
Wilson is incredibly brilliant — “He’s a talented and articulate fellow.”
He has people around him who are dumb — “He’ll take some folk with him.”
There is concern about the trajectory — “Doug’s on a journey.”
What next? http://federal-vision.blogspot.com/2008/03/end-thereof.html
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@ Bunsen Honeydew:
I would love to see that, for a frame of reference on how he deals with things, now that we have the benefit of hindsight to know he’s full of <redacted.
Like Jinx said, he's a great talker.
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Sorry, I know we are supposed to be nice in the comments, but…mealy-mouthed slime bag. I love how the victim was virtually ignored. Lovely.
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Wilson wrote the sentencing judge in Sitler’s case, describing him as “most responsive” and “completely honest” and asking that criminal penalties be “measured and limited.”
And yet, in reality local law officials claim Sitler has never passed a lie detector test. “Completely honest”?
Final word on judge of character is part of pastoral patriarchy?
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@ JYJames:
I don’t doubt Wilson is on a journey, one which I’ve been following since before anyone heard of Doug Wilson outside of Idaho. The question is what his destination is and how many people will be destroyed along his journey. If only the Recon/Federal Vision heresy had been confined to Moscow, but it has not.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
In Wilson’s mind, he is the perpetual victim. Does anyone else other than Doug Wilson exist in Doug Wilson’s mind?
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@ Gram3:
This story is so sad – whatever journey this is.
I have had great appreciation of the film: COLLISION: the debates of Christopher Hitchens vs. Douglas Wilson. It seemed DW was a champion. However, pride goes before a fall and perhaps it all went to his head or to their heads, because there seems to be a community that holds it all together there in Moscow, Idaho. Enabling predators. Patriarchy.
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Bunsen Honeydew wrote:
Thanks for posting this link. I read Wilson’s original letter to the judge, which is posted there.
One thing he states twice is that Sitler was “completely open and honest with me.” How could he know that? Just because Sitler shared some details does not mean that he shared them all. His letter focuses on the counsel & assignments he has provided to Sitler. He gives a glowing report of Sitler’s compliance with his counseling, etc. and he states that he has good hope that Steven has genuinely repented and believes that as a result of his counsel, that Steven now understands why he felt compelled to act as he did [ie to sexually abuse multiple children.] This sounds familiar, as in at TVC where they believed that a biblical counselor not trained specifically in dealing with sexual offenders was sufficient. Glad that TVC eventually sought competent professional help for Hinkley. I absolutely believe that pastors can and should be involved in providing Christian counseling to the members of their church body–even those caught in egregious sin. However, there are many instances in which a partnering of Christian counseling and secular expertise is critical. Working with abusers, especially pedophiles, is one of those critical times.
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*
*
__
“America Fortis?” [1]
hmmm…
“Hark when evil is falling,
Hear! Hear the drums are calling?”
Brave are the hearts that beat,
Beneath the American skies?
Loudly and proudly calling,
Down thro’ the valley and plain, “Give rise !
There where the pulpit pounders are at their post sleeping,
Now feel the blood a-leaping!
High as the spirits of the stout religious men of old…” -Sopwith
[1] America the brave?
huh?
“Do you remember the day,
When preacher and judge alike,
Would be tar’d & fether’d,
For bringing improper judgement,
N’ injustice into the land?” -Sopwith
(sadface)
“Ye shepherds in the land,
Care for the perishing,
Seek the scattered,
Heal the broken,
Sustain the one standing…” – Deus Omnipotens
yep.
…last time I checked, both believing and unbelieving Ameica runs on Liberty, and Justice for all!
Deus Sustineo Sojourner !
Jesus said the one without sin should cast the first stone?
hmmm…
Excuse me! Sin has been delt with. Greater is He that is inthe Believer, than he that pounds the 501(c)3 pulpit!
Ha!
—> My five polished stones remain in my satchel.
Yep!
(huh?)
Distinguished Pastor Douglas Wilson,
My Jesus sits at the right hand of God, and ‘He’ has given us better tools to use; “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, and a good stout prayer, to name a few…
Please with all due respect, push your fail’d guilt inducing ‘religion’ ™ on to someone else. Ain’t gonna work here.
(grin)
hahahahaha!
Skreeeeeeeeeeetch !
…(501(c)3 church) “PR statements do not erase the underlying fact” –that Jesus may truly have ‘something else’ (r) in mind…
ATB
Sopy
__
Inspirational relief: Moody Blues: “Question” and “Ride My See-Saw”…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qDWy7MsIxSU
🙂
—
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In addition to stating twice that Stephen Sitler was “completely honest” with him, Wilson has the following to say about him: “faithful, diligent, very eager, most responsive, ” in completing assignments. He expresses “good hope” that there has been genuine repentance and that he will become a “productive and contributing” member of society. This was a letter of recommendation, written as if he was qualified to assess the likelihood of harm of Sitler.
But then Wilson argues above: “At the same time, I urged that the civil penalties be “measured and limited.” By “measured and limited,” I meant principled, defined and deliberate. I did not mean trivial, light, or lenient. I was not requesting a slap on the wrist. If you put together what I actually said, you will see that what I expressed to the judge was my desire for hard consequences for Steven that were measured and limited.”
I checked several dictionaries and there is simply no definition of “limited” that is consistent with “principled, defined, and deliberate.” Those words are not possible synonyms. One cannot define words however one chooses outside of Wonderland. The whole of his letter certainly is appealing to the judge to look favorably on Sitler.
I happen to agree that Sitler needs God’s grace and forgiveness and that as Christians we are to be vessels of that to repentant brothers and sisters. I doubt if many commentators here disagree with that. The problem would be if Sitler is becoming sexually aroused by his infant child as has been reported (or that is actually the lesser interpretation of what has been reported. It could also mean inappropriate touch.) Being a vessel of God’s love, one would need to take action to make sure that that could not possibly be acted on. That would be best for the baby AND best for Sitler. To place the baby at risk is also to place Sitler at risk of doing something horrific. Just as friends don’t let friends drive drunk, because they want to prevent the risk of carnage, so brothers & sisters don’t let a brother be in a position of constant temptation to egregious sin. Treating a pedophile as a human being with dignity requires that we stand between him and his victim.
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sandy wrote:
I think some push back is warranted here:
The Native Americans were burning, raping, flaying, and bashing each others brains out with war clubs long before the Europeans ever set foot in the New World.
So much for the peaceful and romantic idyll 21st century ideologues would like to project back onto them.
The fights were always about finite resources, the haves vs. the have nots. Whether it was prime farmlands or rich fishing grounds, the haves were willing to do anything to get more. It’s a story older than Solomon and it’s not confined to any one race or people.
Personally, I am eternally grateful for the likes of Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, and all the other old dead white men who founded this great Nation of ours. I say that as a Native American myself. For all her faults, the United States is still the best act to ever hit the world stage.
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Abi Miah wrote:
I don’t know why Sitler isn’t in prison, since he was supposed to serve a long prison sentence for his prior sex crimes against other children (including a 2 year old).
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After reading Wilson’s letter, scanning the comments, and looking at one of the web sites where charges against Stitler are listed, as well as letters of support from others, I’ve had a rather unique thought about Wilson. It looks really good if you can say that you have a forgiven, repentant, and “cured” sexual offender as part of the church. It makes the gospel look powerful and helpful to others (which the gospel is, but sinners also need to cooperate-we usually call that sanctification). In some ways, Wilson may be more deluded than Stitler about the true nature of his character.
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Daisy wrote:
Very good interview.
Malcolm Gladwell wrote an article, In Plain View, with what we everyday folk do not understand about pedophiles.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/09/24/in-plain-view
As someone mentioned in their post – this is a critical arena that calls for experts who do not “minimize the malevolence to make ourselves feel safe” – from the interview. Dr. Salter: “The world is dicier than we think.”
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Linn wrote:
You made some good points. This was also raised on an earlier thread, maybe one about TVC? And I’ve seen it brought up on sites by ex-Christians, and on other Christian blogs.
Some Christians do seem to covert sensational conversion and clean up stores, and the worse the sinner or sin, the better. They favor the stories from drug addicts who came to Christ, former prostitutes, former Mafia members, and so on.
I was a goody goody from a young age and accepted Christ as my savior as a kid. I never robbed stores, did drugs, mugged people, belonged to a gang, or worked as a stripper, so most churches would find my testimony boring.
You do start to wonder how much some of this “rally the troops around the pedophile” stuff by some churches is for some kind of weird marketing purpose. Like it’s a nifty feature on a new car they’re trying to sell.
Maybe that, plus some very warped theology and misplaced priorities that puts the concepts of grace and repentance above showing consideration and safety for victims.
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Daisy wrote:
Sorry that should have read “covet” not “covert”
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Linn wrote:
I think Wilson is deluded regarding Sitler because of his delusion about himself. I think Sitler knows exactly what he is and what he is doing.
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I followed one of the links Velour gave to an interview with Anna Salter, where a murderer named Austin Sigg was mentioned (he murdered a little girl), which led me to this page, which says in part:
Source:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2516937/Jessica-Ridgeway-killer-Austin-Sigg-practiced-zip-tying-victims-mother.html
I wonder what kind of Christian counseling Sigg got? If it was Nouthetic (Bible based only), no wonder it failed.
This also reminds me a little of the Doug Wilson letter, where he says he counseled Sitler six or so times (if I am remembering right).
I don’t think some forms of Christian counseling for violent teens, like Sigg, or pedophiles, like Sitler, amounts to a hill of beans.
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Hester wrote:
Well, I know how important words are to these guys, and I figure if one of them starts repeatedly using unusual terminology to the exclusion of the language everyone else uses, it almost certainly goes beyond showing off and into super-secret handshake territory…
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XianJaneway wrote:
Absolutely they can! Since when did Christians decide that forgiveness means the removal of consequences?
I worked with offenders for years. It is a very bad sign when a repentant offender thinks that he should not have to serve the rest of his sentence now that he’s sorry.
It also does someone no good to offer them forgiveness when they are not repentant and do not appreciate how others have been hurt by their crimes. It only reinforces their own misplaced sense of victimhood.
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Marsha wrote:
Thank you!! Yes, I’ve never understood the mentality of, “I’ve said a prayer, I’m right with God, so that means I should have 20 years taken off my sentence.”
We used to support a prison ministry, where there were amazing stories of conversion & change. The prisoners worked to clean up the prison,make it safer, get educated, get healthy, & not one of them asked that their sentences be commuted. Instead, they showed fruit of repentance, & made amazing differences in the lives of other prisoners. Why is this not an objective? Why could this not be a mighty move of God?
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@ That Bad Dog:
It also made it sound like one of the key definitional elements of gibbeting was prolonged public display of the body after death, which is exactly what didn’t happen to Jesus. In fact the very next point in the Wikipedia article after saying it could be classified as gibbeting, said that the Jews prohibited gibbeting on a tree past sundown and gave Deut. 21:22-23 (which is the “cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree” thing). Granted, this is Wikipedia talking, but yeah, could definitely be verging on secret handshake.
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@ Marsha:
I’ve heard stories before of murderers who converted and specifically asked for their sentence to not be commuted because they had to face the consequences of their actions. (I wish I could remember the person’s name, all I remember is that it was a woman.)
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http://sitler.moscowid.net
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Bridget wrote:
This is a quote from a letter written by Sitler’s probation officer.
“Mr. Sitler took another polygraph test on August 22, 2015 and failed another question. Attached in a sealed envelope are the polygraph results. Of concern is [specifies paragraphs throughout the report]. With these new disclosures and the heinous nature of these violations, Idaho Department of Correction Section Two Supervisor Rene Behrens ordered Mr. Sitler completely off his residence property and ordered him to have no contact with his son.
In this polygraph, Mr. Sitler disclosed that he told his wife about some of these incidents. Since she did not report them to probation as required of a chaperone, she is no longer an approved chaperone by the Idaho Department of Correction. Mr. Sitler has not been disclosing information to his treatment providers but has been to Dr. Wilson who is not a specialized sexual offender treatment provider approved by the State of Idaho Sex Offender Management Board (SOMB). Mr. Sitler continues to do things his way and continues to make disclosures while still failing the polygraphs to which leaves one to think how much he is not disclosing.”
Mr. Sitler continues to do things his way. Doug Wilson continues to interfere.
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@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Wow, excellent link. At least some in Moscow are in their right minds about the welfare of children. May God bless the righteous, as opposed to the religious, in this case.
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@ Bridget:
They both continue to do things their way, which is obviously not God’s way – truth and respecting the welfare of children.
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@ That Bad Dog:
It reminds me of a huge tangent that the Watchtower has run off on, along with its indentured servants who claim to have Witnessed Jehovah. It also concerns the cross, and is based on a contrived quirk of translation.
Although crucifixion probably didn’t originate with the Romans, in the first century the cross was very much a Roman idea and the Greeks didn’t have a separate word for it. Thus, in the gospel accounts, the Greek word for “cross” literally translates as “stake”. The Watchtower, bless ’em, have thence decided that there was no cross, and it was actually a stake. In other words, they’ve taken something translated from Latin to Greek, and then from Greek to English, and run with the literal results in English: an infallible recipe for generating nonsense. And they’ve built a cardinal doctrine on it.
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@ That Bad Dog:
Listen, plain and simple, Wilson is the pseudo-intelectual founder and leader of a religious cult. Nothing more, nothing less. Though I am surprised that St. Andrews University in Scotland hasn’t asked him to stop using their name :).
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JYJames wrote:
It is. Julie Anne brought it to my attention. There’s a link in there to the Sitler wedding video if anyone is interested.
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Bridget wrote:
Doug Wilson seems to have left out this bit of information in his response yesterday.
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BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
If only believers would recognize this!
Sometimes, I am gobsmacked by the naivety of Christians. I don’t give a hoot if a man/woman has theological academic credentials crisscrossing their chest, it doesn’t ensure integrity or wisdom.
A degree in common sense might be the most valuable asset to attain.
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When you stand back, and look at the body of work of Doug Wilson ( I.e. His fruits), it is obvious that he thinks he is an authority unto himself, and he I knows more about many subjects than academics/experts that spend their life focused on these subjects….
What is really scary is that almost all of the “leaders” behind the abuse discussed on WW exhibit this same behavior…. And in the case of the “Gospel Collation” crowd, they just support each other “puffed up” view of themselves as being “experts” when it comes to all things “spiritual”. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely
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@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Thank you for posting this link. UNBELIEVABLE!
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@ Bridget:
And that sombich had the gall to ask Janeway on Twitter “to what incident are you referring to?”, when he darned well knew all along what incidents were going on.
I have no words. Actually I have a lot words. None of them Christian.
Sick. Sick. Sick.
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As I have mentioned before, I can not imagine growing up knowing my father was a convicted for life as a pedophile, and then a organization in the name of Christ allows him to be married, and the I am born, and when I grow up find out he gets his sexual jollies from me as an infant…..
Forgiveness has nothing to do with this… It is all about common sense. No matter how repentant, an airline pilot convicted of flying a commercial airline drunk should never be an airline pilot again… So, one with the level of issues as this guy should not be a father… Common sense… And convicted, with a “life sentence” is no small offense….
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Mae wrote:
This is the problem. The outrages things that people like Piper and Wilson say. The behavior of churches like The Village and Capital Hill. And all the other garbage, that leaders in evangelical Christianity get away with, is allowed to happen because we evangelicals sit back with star in our eyes and do not challenge these people. This is why sites like TWW are very important, so that this stuff is not allowed to go on quietly, with no one advocating for those who are weak and abused!
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Which will then be spread by people who are proud that they have special knowledge.
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Clay Crouch wrote:
You are 100% correct.
What is concerning is that the Gospel Coalition, Piper, Dever and all the rest can’t see this.
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Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
I know. A cursory reading of Wilson’s works will make you aware of this.
He’s a narcissistic cult-leader.
So why do the Gospel Glitterati support him?
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May wrote:
Because they’re wannabe cult leaders?
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It tells you something of the Gospel Glitterati……Growing up in the fundamentalist/conservative evangelical world you are taught to follow these pseudo-intellectuals… But logical inconsistencies always us to bug me… As I grew up, and attended leading “secular, humanistic, evil,” institutions of higher learning, I figured out that the cognitive dissidence that I grew up was not that I “lacked faith/was rebellious” but that these so-called leaders were just full of B.S./themselves, and that there was no one that can challenge their crazy ideas…
As I keep saying, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely …. True leaders are willing to submit themselves to open and probing peer review/accountability …
May wrote:
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Wow. I am laying aside my puny effort to use public documents and commentary on the Sitler case in light of this new (?) website. Here is what caught my attention. Exposed in the timeline is the clearest example of what I call “Dougspeak” I have ever seen. On one hand we read Doug claiming that he “ immediately encouraged the person who had discovered them to go to the authorities immediately, which was done right away.” After looking at the timeline on http://sitler.moscowid.net/ on the March 10, 2005, Pastor Wilson’s Response: Pastor Douglas Wilson of Christ Church, Moscow, Doug schedules an appointment to meet with the mother & father of the victims the next day — “after lunch.” What kind of pastor delays comforting the parents of molested children until the next day? And, equally offensive is the claim that he immediately sprang into action . . . which, arguably, he did to shield the perpetrator. Why didn’t he tell the devastated family to call the sheriff that night; why didn’t he make the call for them ? Why did he wait until after Steven Sitler left town to talk to them? I don’t think that he was un-engaged with this problem. I think it highly likely that Steven Sitler was sitting in his office for hours being debriefed so Doug could consider his options. But, that is speculative.
Because I live near Moscow it is easy for me to drop by the courthouse and get copies of recent court documents. That opportunity plus the ability to attend hearings has helped clarify the issues for me. I can say in truth that the prosecutor and his staff are working very hard on this case. Judge Stegner is a well respected man professionally as a judge and as a community member. Neither of these men are connected in any way with the Kirk. Nonetheless, I get really frustrated that the process is much slower than I would like – some, if not all the blame for that must be laid at the door of the vigorous defense efforts, which is only fair and proper in our legal system. I’m not a saint – it makes my head explode when what seems obvious to me seems to escape the folks who, in fact, know hundred times more about it and are educated in the law. They are not slackers, and I need to remind myself that I sometimes act like a big, fat, know it all.
I do believe, from a layperson’s perspective, after reviewing the literature, that sex offenders with a long history of sexual interest in very young victims are not as amenable to treatment as other offenders. I do know that Steven Sitler has been in “treatment” for ten years. Ten years and thousands and thousands of dollars later he is still at high risk (if being sexually aroused by an infant is indicative – and I certainly think it is) to reoffend. I do know, based on the website, that he is a calculating liar. I think we have gone beyond the point of giving him a chance to “prove” himself a changed person. I pray that something can be done to protect his child and other children that he may be in contact with before he reoffends. I hope that his probation will be revoked and he will be in prison for the rest of his life.
I will be posting this same note to the Spiritual Sounding Board. We are all grateful beyond words for the dedication that Dee, Deb, and Julie Anne devote to their faith and protecting the lambs from the wolves.
Blessings,
Rose
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@ Muff Potter:
As an aside, an interesting warning that those nearer to a culture have a better grasp of it as it really is than those more distant from it who may have an axe to grind in addition.
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May wrote:
The don’t want to see it, nor do they want to acknowledge it because doing so would shine the light on their own freakish beliefs and practices.
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Doug Wilson stated in his response yesterday that the Judge thought it was a good idea that Sitler married. Wilson did not back up that statement with any source.
Here is what the DOC in Idaho thought of the idea of marriage for Sitler.
http://sitler.moscowid.net/2011/05/27/idaho-department-of-correction-re-steven-sitler-2/
Maybe the judge and the DOC weren’t communicating. Or maybe the judge never said what Doug Wilson claims he said.
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@ Jeffrey Chalmers:
This child doesn’t stand a chance of growing up emotionally *normal*…Who could? A sexual deviant of a father, a brainwashed, useless mother, condoning grandparents, etc.
I am praying the state’s children services, will be able to have the child removed from the home.
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Mae wrote:
I’m actually praying that Steven Sitler has his probation revoked and is returned to prison. Because lots of allowances have been made for this pedophile over the years and he is still a terrible, terrible risk. It’s time for him to be locked up permanently as a danger to society.
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Doug Wilson stated in his response yesterday that the Judge thought it was a good idea that Sitler married. Wilson did not back up that statement with any source.
Here is what the DOC in Idaho thought of the idea of marriage for Sitler.
http://sitler.moscowid.net/2011/05/27/idaho-department-of-correction-re-steven-sitler-2/
Maybe the judge and the DOC weren’t communicating. Or maybe the judge never said what Doug Wilson claims he said.@ Bridget:
From Doug Wilson’s article.
“While we do not believe that marriage is an automatic “fix” for the temptations to molest children, we agree with Judge Stegner who approved the wedding and said that ‘an age-appropriate relationship with a member of the opposite sex from Mr. Sitler is one of the best things that can happen to him and to society” (emphasis added).”
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May wrote:
I believe they support him because he is brash enough to say out loud the things which they privately believe about authority and gender. He checks the mandatory boxes of Patriarchalist and “calvinist” (lower case intentional.) And he appeals to the young guys who think they are all that and chocolate. There are young guys who think he is a hero for debating Christopher Hitchens, and they do not look beyond that to examine what this man teaches or the fruit of his “ministry.” The Gospel Glitterati are all very much into manliness until it requires them to do something human, like care about what their precious doctrines do to little children and abused women.
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mirele wrote:
Agree with that as well. But…it doesn’t address the mother and extended family’s inability from shielding the child from the father in the first place. If they can accept marriage to a child molester as okay and be so reckless,foolish, as to place a baby in his arms, removing the pervert isn’t enough protection for that child.
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@ Bridget:
Maybe XianAtty can speak to this, but to this layperson, this sounds more like it’s alluding to an actual molestation than just arousal in the presence of the child. I could be wrong but this sounds pretty bad.
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I don’t know who is running http://sitler.moscowid.net/ but the person has collected every scrap of public information regarding Steven Sitler and his crimes and put it out there. It is very up to date. I only wish it wasn’t necessary.
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@ Bridget:
I share your question. I also wonder if Wilson saying the judge “approved” the wedding is actually accurate. The judge may not have barred the wedding, but that is not the same thing as *approving* the wedding. Until someone comes up with a source for Wilson’s assertion, we may not know what the truth is. Wilson is a master wordsmith, and I always keep that in mind when reading anything he writes.
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Check out our new post. Lots of reading for your holiday.
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@ mirele:
I just did a new post on the website. The author/editor is anonymous.
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Doug Wilson is calling us antiDW forces and pedophile hustlers.
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Mae wrote:
I wrote of some of my thoughts about the mother in this post up thread:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/09/06/doug-wilson-responds/comment-page-1/#comment-218850
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@ Bridget:
This website is going to be devasting.
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@ Rose Huskey:
I have my new post up. Di you know about this website? I saw it on Twitter. Thank you for commenting here.
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Linn wrote:
I think Wilson just doesn’t want to admit he’s made serious CYA-driven mistakes at every juncture, so he keeps doubling down. Judging from my reading of other Neo-Cal pastors, these guys also can’t bear the thought that a man might be disqualified from owning his own female field to plow. They perceive any real concern for the rights of women and children as a dire threat.
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Joan wrote:
There needs to be a Maury Povich meme where it says at the top
“You say you want to protect women and children”
And at the bottom,
“Marrying a young lady to a pedophile then showing no concern for the infant that union produced proves that is a lie.”
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@ Bridget:
The Dr. Wilson could be one of several Dr. Wilsons in the area. There is a Dr. Wilson nearby who is a clinical psychologist. There is a Dr. Wilson associated with New St. Andrews College – not Doug Wilson. There are other Dr. Wilsons in the area as well. I have no idea if Douglas Wilson has or uses the title Dr.
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Dr. Greg Wilson is a Pullman,Washington psychologist. He is not certified in the State of Idaho to be a Sexual Offender Treatment Provider, so I assume, he is a general dogsbody of a therapist. If I sound disdainful of him, in truth, I am. He has “treated” Sitler for ten years – Steven, if nothing else is a Cash Cow for him. He also occasionally, talks with Katie Sitler and Dave and Roxanne Sitler, Steven’s parents. In July of 2015 he wrote to the court praising Steven for his “honesty.” He also knew, according to court records, about Steven’s sexual arousal from contact (what ever that means) with his infant son. Most importantly of all HE DID NOT REPORT that information to the court. Dr. Wilson is a big proponent of “appropriate” family reunification of sexual offenders who offended against family members. I am not, and I don’t need a PhD in psychology to know why. There are very few heroes in this story.
Rose Huskey
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Doug’s terminal degree is a M.A. in Philosophy. His brother, Gordon, has a PhD in Environmental Science and Public Policy,from George Mason University, 2003. He is the Senior (and only) Fellow of Natural History – which means science at NSA.
Doug’s son-in-law, Ben Merkle, is President of NSA (following the 2014 kicking to the curb, of the original President, Roy Attwood.
Doug’s son, Nathan Wilson is Fellow of Literature
and his other son-in-law, Luke Jankovic is a permanent member of the Board of Directors of NSA.
It’s all about family!
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Mara wrote:
Good idea Mara…here it is 🙂
https://twitter.com/SJKorch/status/640978874847784960
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@ dee:
DW’s first blog post about Doug Philips and the nanny was to call anyone who might react with “snark” as “enemies of the Lord”. Yet…hilariously…he later referred to Doug as a scoundrel when it all broke lose and Doug could not be defended. In true narcissist form, he never admitted that the “enemies of the Lord” were correct in their initial impressions.
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@ Sarah K:
Thanks Sarah!
I don’t have the know-how to produce such a thing. But I couldn’t help but think of it as I considered Doug Phillips Christian Men And Boys Titanic society, Doug Wilson’s trying to defend Doug Phillips and now seeing how this “putting women and children first” really plays out in the world of the patriarch.
Once again, we see that it is all about the men in leadership. They put themselves first, They don’t mind sacrificing as many women and children as it takes in order to keep their positions and reputations intact.
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@ May:
Because for these men, doctrine trumps bad behavior.
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@ Sarah K:
I went ahead and made a post about this lie that the Patriarchs tell so I could link that meme.
I call it the second lie of patriarchy.
The first lie is that patriarchy is the biblical model that families should follow.
http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2015/09/the-patriarchs-second-lie-to-women.html
Did I tell you already that I really like the meme you made? 😉
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@ Mara:
I just cut and pasted your words. I didn’t know your twitter, so I just tagged Dee and Dougy 😛
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Gram3 wrote:
This, along with their having their own definitions for significant words, is extremely important when trying to dialogue with them. If you feel as if you are talking right past each other, you are. They know this but won’t acknowledge this upfront. Along with their patriarchal views, even their view of the rights and role of the legal system is They go round and round wearing you down with a pile on from their own ideology/theology. All that to say, either go in and say your bit and get out, or prepare to get them to define terms–the sooner the better.
As far as a master wordsmith, they like to throw that out there, too, as a mockery of those that are “misunderstanding” Wilson. It’s one thing to be a master wordsmith, it’s another to use vagueness or rhetorical games in order to confuse very serious issues. It keeps everyone confused even his very own that defend outlandish due to “wordsmithery”. And as a moderator, he rarely cares to step in and clear up what he REALLY believes. IMO, it’s deceitful (because I think it keeps his minions arguing for WHATEVER he says since he’s so “masterful”) or if not deceitful, highly unprofitable even harmful to the church. The blog goes round and round in circles with much repetition because Wilson won’t clear up any confusion and those of Doug’s Village insist he means what they think he means…he’s always right regardless of the utter confusion that is expressed…and everyone else is made to look “spiritually blind” (because we don’t adhere to new definitions) or of a low IQ (because we aren’t smart enough to figure out his infallible rhetorical prowess).
Anyway. For what it’s worth. I wish I had known this before ever engaging in conversation there trying to reason with unreasonable.
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@ Andrew:
What you describe is a most unGodly way to interact with people.
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Andrew wrote:
This is the hallmark of the Federal Visionists. And that is a trait that they carried over from Reconstructionism so many years ago. Most of the new guys think their “liturgical reform” is cool and new and oh so serious. In some ways it reminds me of the YRR in the SBC and how they think they are the first ones to discover the true Christian faith.
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@ Andrew:
Another point of similarity in the YRR and Federal Vision movements is the appeal to the intellectual pride of young men and some older men. Thus you have twenty-something elders in the SBC who think they know as much about the faith as seasoned saint who have walked with the Lord for many years. The “liturgical reformists” in the Reformed denominations think they are the ones God has anointed to see the deep typological truth in scripture and that they are the ones who will bring back faithful covenant worship and faithful covenant keeping.
Both the YRR and the FV liturgical reformists are puffed up with spiritual pride.
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Velour wrote:
I agree. The decisions in this case of the legal system are inexplicable to me.
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Interesting article that Julie Anne over at Spiritual Sounding Board just tweeted out from a woman – Katie Botkin – who has had experience with Doug Wilson:
http://kbotkin.com/2015/09/07/doug-wilson-on-marriage/
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One question, are judges elected in the U.S. and is this particular judge elected? If so, are they up for re-election every four years (same time as Federal Elections are held)? I am just wondering, because, if the judge is, he doesn’t have a lot of incentive to get Doug Wilson upset with him, if Wilson has the largest church in the area. I may be totally off, but wouldn’t having elected judges create a judging bias towards the electorate on cases such as this? I can’t see why (who some claim is an excellent judge) could be so passive and permissive in this case, unless a) they fear getting kicked out of office next election time or b) is a molester himself (highly unlikely). Otherwise, breaching probation should land him straight back in jail.
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Val wrote:
Here is a link from Findlaw explaining how judges get on the bench.
http://litigation.findlaw.com/legal-system/how-are-judges-selected.html
Federal judges are not elected, the theory being that we need an impartial federal judiciary and not one swayed by politics. They are appointed by the president and approved of by Congress.
State courts are different. Some judges may be elected, some are selected by committees, some are appointed.
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@ Sarah K:
I don’t twitter.
I have enough on my plate.
I just do a little blogging. And not always well and never consistently.
But I’m glad to be able to have a meme to show what I think about DW’s contempt of women and disregard for children.
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@ Val:
Summary of state process:
http://www.courts.uslegal.com/selection-of-judges/state-by-state-summary
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@ Mara:
You rock Mara
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IMO, Doug Wilson is not so concerned about managing his ‘kirk’s image to the world at large as he is determined to maintain his image with the ‘faithful’ by giving them talking points with which to nod along and parrot agreement.
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Andrew wrote:
DW is a master of equivocation and has been for decades. He does it so constantly and smoothly that it seems almost pathological if not Satanic. If he writes a 140 character tweet, it probably has an equivocation in it. I think DW could actually speak a single word and manage to equivocate. This has been especially pronounced in the Federal Vision controversy where they not only have their own special definitions of theological terms, but also equivocate constantly about what those definitions are, expressly to obscure the fact that they contradict confessional Reformed theology.
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Never Again wrote:
I agree that he is speaking to his base, using political terms. And politics is really what we are talking about here, regardless of the religious terms thrown in. To judge by what little I’ve seen from his defenders, including those outside his normal CREC world, he has been successful. It appears that his stance on patriarchy trumps his heretical soteriology and odd ecclesiology from a Reformed perspective. I read some of Julie Anne’s Twitter feed online (kids told me how to do that) and the loyal defenders of patriarchy are loyally defending Wilson while totally ignoring how this young woman was used and the consequent danger to her child and any future children. It is appalling, but it is not surprising.
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@ Bunsen Honeydew:
“If allegations of him molesting his son are true, then a repentent person would not need a court order to remove himself.”
++++++++++++++++++++
That is, if said person knows how to think his/her own thoughts.
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” I immediately encouraged the person who had discovered them to go to the authorities immediately, which was done right away.”
+++++++++++++++
hmmm,yes….2 immediatelies in the same sentence. Only nervous panic would let that happen.
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@ elastigirl:
From the timeline info it wasn’t actually immediately. Wilson waited a day to meet with the victims family. But why didn’t the victim’s family go directly to the police. Why go to your pastor first? This is what many pastors train you to do.
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My question for Brad Futurist Guy (if you have the time) re: a systemic analysis of how pedophiles get out of prison early. I’d be glad to read an encyclopedic response at your website, or a shorter reply on the Open Discussion Thread. My computer time is sporadic. I will check there probably in a few days.
So, here’s my question, which you are not obligated to answer. Anyone else is also, as always, welcome to chime in on the other thread.
The sexually assaulted people and their families who press charges endure the “system” at great personal cost. Sometimes the judge actually sentences the abuser to a long sentence. Then, poof, the perp is out again. I’ve read this over and over in pedophile cases throughout the country.
Who lets these folks out? Who is the person who signs what form to free the pedophile? Can that “cog” in the justice “machinery” be identified?
Specifically, how did Steven get released from, as I understand it, a life sentence after so short a time in prison?
I pray fervently for the networks which support abuse and penalize the abused to be exposed and ended with finality. A better understanding of the system at the point where the pedophile is released would be very helpful.
Thanks.
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If I tweeted, I would say: I CARE about children. Do you?
I CARE about this infant son. Do you?
I recognize no restrictions on caring about children.
How do you KNOW no child has been molested? Are you listening to your children?
Sincerely, be careful about who you believe. Children
are counting on you to protect them.
Probably too long for tweets.
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Ardiak wrote:
Ardiak — wish I could do this, but that’s far beyond the time I have available, plus someone with a legal background would be able to do a much better job of it. Also, maybe that kind of study already exists, actually, and some of the organizations that deal primarily with child abuse issues would likely know what’s available. Good questions where answers would be helpful for understanding the dynamics of what goes on in general, and then applied to church/ministry contexts.
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@ Bunsen Honeydew:
“If”
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Ardiak, sentences are complicated. You have to read them in their entirety. Let’s say a man is sentenced to probation for petty theft. It is a first offense and he gets probation. However, the judge wants him to do jail time if he doesn’t meet the conditions of probation such as pay restitution so the sentence might read “six months imprisonment, suspended for probation with the condition that the defendant will pay restitution…” The sentence has to read that way because if it just said probation, the judge couldn’t bring the man back to the court and impose a harsher sentence if he doesn’t pay the restitution.
I haven’t seen Sitler’s sentence but it probably read “life in prison with all but x months suspended for probation under the following conditions….” The probation officer reports any violation to the prosecutor who then brings Sitler back before the Judge who can send him to prison for life or impose lesser sanctions.
Also some states have truth in sentencing. If someone is sentenced to ten years, they serve ten years. Other states allow inmates to accrue ‘good time.’ If they don’t cause trouble in prison, time is taken off their sentence.
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elastigirl wrote:
That struck me as well.
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refugee wrote:
2 immediates …… followed by a right away. Does that make it three immediates in one sentence?
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Jinx wrote:
Exactly right!! Thank you for saying this.
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@ Nancy2:
embarrassingly clumsy writing, that’s for sure.
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Eagle wrote:
Agreed.
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@ elastigirl:
Come, now, it isn’t wordsmithy smartiness to one and all?
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One of the most troubling aspects of Doug Wilson’s response is the fact that he has never owned anything. Not one apology, for anything, to anyone. Common sense would suggest that with a case (or two cases) this long and involved, he certainly was guilty of, at the very least, partiality. The facts suggest a much greater guilt. And yet, he deflects all responsibility onto others, including the secondary victims, and fails to make any mention of the primary victim(s).
Lest anyone call me out on hypocrisy, one of the Bayley brothers called me out on a comment I made about the Wilson family. He was right. I apologized publicly in print, making my apology as wide as my transgression. I signed my full real name. I think that’s how the holy spirit works in the lives of believers. The fruit of full responsibility for a believer’s actions (ie, remorse and repentance) is so fundamental that I am unable to comprehend that lots of words can obfuscate what is lacking in character and necessary for unity.
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@ Bridget:
in this case, he seems to have forgotten to put on his smartipants.
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@ elastigirl:
Me thinks his smartipants and ours are from different drawers.
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So one thing I struggle with (as a parent knowing these predators are in our churches) is honestly ever to trust my children to anyone in a nursery, class, etc. Even with background checks it seems risky. It can seem to take forever to build trust and then will it be broken?
How do we find a balance between being wise & responsible & cautious and knowing we ultimately have to trust the Lord for our childrens’ care? Thoughts?
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@ bea:
I don’t have a comprehensive answer, but the first thing that comes to mind is glass windows/walls — visibility. And proof of criminal background checks & fingerprinting of all workers.
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@bradfuturistguy
Thanks. Appreciate your response, the good follow-up suggestions, and a starting
point for further research (which I love to do.) I shall see what I can find.
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Gram3 wrote:
BINGO. You nailed it.