"My mother used to tell me man gives the award, God gives the reward. I don't need another plaque."
Last month the Evangelical Theological Society (ETS) gathered for its 66th annual meeting in San Diego. Interestingly, the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (CBMW) held a banquet in that fine city at which two new awards were presented.
They are the John Piper Award for Complementarian Leadership and the Wayne Grudem Award for Complementarian Scholarship. We assume these awards will be presented annually (in conjunction with the ETS meeting), so John Piper and Wayne Grudem will be immortalized through these recognitions.
It was just before the ETS meeting held 27 years ago that the Danvers Statement on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood was drafted under wraps and CBMW came into existence. Here is a brief summary according to the CBMW website:
The group next met at the Sheraton Ferncroft Resort in Danvers, Massachusetts, on December 2-3, 1987, before the 1987 meeting of the Evangelical Theological Society. The draft was adopted in meeting and called the Danvers Statement on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. The group then voted to incorporate as the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.
The organization built steam for several years, running an ad in Christianity Today that drew a huge response. It was clear that CBMW represented the concerns of a large, and to that point relatively quiet, constituency. During this period, Grudem and Piper worked on assembling and editing essays for a project released by Crossway in 1991 entitled Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: A Response to Evangelical Feminism. Now known as RBMW (or, among younger complementarians, the “blue book”), the text was named “Book of the Year” by Christianity Today in 1992.
How that tome – Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood – was named "Book of the Year" is beyond our comprehension… We have a copy of it, and you can access it online here.
Since CBMW recently labeled itself as a Brave New Movement, we have to wonder how things are going. How does an organization that has been around for close to three decades label itself as "NEW"?
Getting back to the awards… Here is how their namesakes are described over at CBMW.
The scholarship award is named after CBMW founder Dr. Wayne Grudem and is titled the Wayne Grudem Award for Complementarian Scholarship. Dr. Wayne Grudem is known to most evangelicals around the world. He became Research Professor of Theology and Biblical Studies at Phoenix Seminary in 2001 after teaching at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School for 20 years. He has served as the President of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, as President of the Evangelical Theological Society (1999), and as a member of the Translation Oversight Committee for the English Standard Version of the Bible. He also served as the General Editor for the ESV Study Bible (Crossway Bibles, 2008). Many know him because of his thorough and accessible Systematic Theology published with Zondervan in 2004…
Dr. Grudem has been the driving force behind CBMW since the organization’s inception. His books and articles have provided immense ballast to the movement. So it is in his honor and in light of his example that we are instituting this award for complementarian scholarship.
The leadership award is named after CBMW founder Dr. John Piper and is titled The John Piper Award for Complementarian Leadership.
John Piper is the author of over 50 books and now frequently travels to speak, and writes regularly, through Desiring God. He also serves as chancellor of Bethlehem College & Seminary in Minneapolis, Minnesota. He is the coeditor of Recovering Biblical & Manhood, the book that is the cornerstone of the complementarian movement. He has been a key leader in complementarian circles for four decades. He is a cofounder of CBMW and has provided exemplary theological leadership for the broader evangelical movement through his preaching, teaching, and writing.
And here are the recipients of those awards…
The Wayne Grudem Award for Complementarian Scholarship was given to Drs. Andreas and Margaret Köstenberger, and the John Piper Award for Complementarian Leadership went to both Dr. J. Ligon Duncan III and to Dr. and Mrs. R. Albert Mohler Jr.
It's a small world because a decade ago I attended the same Sunday School class as the Köstenbergers. My time in that class was short-lived, however, because there was a terrible conflict that divided the congregation. It was absolutely horrible, and we left when the pastor resigned…
And twelve years ago my younger daughter was in the same Christian school class as the Köstenbergers' daughter. Just before Christmas, all the fifth grade classes went on a field trip to an ice skating rink, and I remember meeting Margaret there for the first time. I enjoyed my conversation with her, and I was impressed with her academic credentials since she has a doctorate of theology (which she received from the University of South Africa).
According to the CBMW article referenced above, Dr. Andreas Köstenberger is
Senior Research Professor of New Testament and Biblical Theology, as well as Director of Ph.D. Studies at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. He is the Founder and President of Biblical Foundations™ (www.biblicalfoundations.org), an organization devoted to encouraging a return to the biblical foundations in the home, the church, and society. Dr. Köstenberger also serves as editor of the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society. He has authored, edited, or translated over twenty books…
Dr. Köstenberger earned his Ph.D. from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School (TEDS), (he holds other degrees as well) and we assume he developed a relationship with Dr. Wayne Grudem through that connection since Dr. Grudem taught at TEDS for 20 years until his relocation to Phoenix in 2001.
Not only that, a month before we started blogging in 2009, Acts 29 held a Boot Camp in Raleigh. The speakers were Mark Driscoll, Wayne Grudem, Andreas Köstenberger and a few others.
The Köstenbergers have written a book entitled God's Design for Man and Woman, which was published earlier this year by Crossway. As you can well imagine, it is being promoted by the complementarian crowd.
The recipients of the John Piper Award for Complementarian Leadership are familiar to our readers. They are Dr. Albert Mohler (and his wife Mary) and Dr. J. Ligon Duncan III. Dr. Mohler is president of Southern Seminary, a post he has held since 1993. Dr. J. Ligon Duncan III is the Chancellor/CEO of Reformed Theological Seminary and also serves as the John E. Richards Professor of Systematic and Historical Theology. Interestingly, the John Piper award recipients represent half of the original T4G team. Our prediction is that Mark Dever will receive one of these awards next year. Just sayin'.
Owen Strachan, CBMW president, summed up 2014 and shared what’s ahead for the new year by writing:
In 2015, we’re planning to make some big moves. Lord willing, we’ll be adding more staff, starting our podcast, and announcing new publishing projects. In order to get there, we’d love to partner with you in our December giving campaign. Our goal is to raise $30,000.
It will be interesting to see how well Strachan and his colleagues carry the torch lit by Piper and Grudem, among others, way back in 1987. Now that two of the architects of the complementarian movement — John Piper and Wayne Grudem — will be remembered for many years to come through these CBMW awards, we thought it only fitting to leave you with a video that also immortalizes Wayne Grudem.
Lydia's Corner: Genesis 31:17-32:12 Matthew 10:24-11:6 Psalm 13:1-6 Proverbs 3:16-18
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This makes my skin crawl. It comes across as some sort of institutional cross-breeding of some sort. And don’t get me started on “named” awards; where I’m from, the person is someone who contributed a lot academically or financially to the science world at large, and are sometimes even deceased. Are Piper and Grudem trying to tell us something?
First?
*goes back to studying*
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@ androidninja:
No doubt about it, it's an 'exclusive' club.
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I’m sorry…I could not get past Denzel and read the rest of the article. Swoon.
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@ Kathi:
Denzel is an American treasure. While he’s not the type I’m attracted to, I can see his appeal. Plus, he’s just a class act all around.
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@ androidninja:
He’s always been my celebrity crush. He still looks good today!
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Ha ha. Pardon me while I – A HA HA HA HA!!! – um, have a good chuckle HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
The arrogance, the – er – inbreeding for lack of a better term, the hubris – it is too funny to be true. I wonder if this crowd realizes just how silly they sound to the rest of the world!
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“In 2015, we’re planning to make some big moves.” When are you guys NOT planning big moves. There’s always some book, conference, organization, statement, or meeting about to come out, destined to bring back “biblical” gender wisdom. I guess when it doesn’t have the desired effect, they gotta try again.
And I could’ve gone to this meeting!!!!! ,*frustrated teenager sigh*
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HUG, Nick, Beaker, lets try and make up some funny sub-titles for “the John Piper Award for Complementarian Leadership.” Here’s one to start:
“The John Piper Award for Complementarian Leadership: Keeping Male headship in leadership with discipleship Through mentorship.”
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Dee or Deb feel free to remove this, your blog has been an oasis for me. I came across this video
http://youtu.be/RJ7sr-jcG1M
I actually liked the part of the song that seemed to show broken pots being restored, but it is troubling, of of respect for a dear online friend at PP I wont go into my reform rant too much. Pastor Wilson is actually a talented man, just an observation, he writes well even though I think some of it is psychopathic at best. I always struggled with Paul’s reference to pots and the potter, when referring to creations in God’s image as being inanimate objects I always found that rather troubling. Pots are pots and they lack any ability to respond to any type of reflection, creations that reflect, though fallen, the image of God. Which is a primary argument against abortion, but in the same breath we are such sin soaked fallen creatures we are loathed of God, self deceived worshipers of Satan. When I read or listen to some of this theology it reminds me of the love hate relationships in junior high, the “girls” are cute but they have cuties. Only cuties on steroids.
You know I often struggled with self anger disappointment when I was young, but to truly learn to loathe every aspect of my humanness it took religion. At times I tried to out hate God’s hate for me with my own self loathing because I was such a wretched human being. From the very cheap seats, this is not good news, it really is not, it is actually sort of silly.
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I’ve been battling a stomach virus the last couple of days……this has made me relapse….
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I am surprised that there is not a 'tweeting' award named for Piper–has anyone tweeted more questionable tweets while representing the church at large than him?
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Deb
Note they are trying to raise $30,000. Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t that the same amount they were trying to raise last year?
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brian wrote:
I am so sorry that you were in churches that would lead you down this path. I recently saw a woman leave a quote on another woman blog, calling herself a lowly worm and was a actually quite pleased she felt this way. This happened quite a bit in Jonathan Edwards congregation as well. It eventually led to some serious consequences that ended the revival.
This new crowd loves the recognition of sin and wretchedness far more than they love God’s love for His people. And that is the saddest story of all.
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Honoring Grudem with a musical set in the Fifties seems fitting, since that’s where his views about men and women belong 😉
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@ Sophie: Excellent comment!
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@ dee: Great recall!
Yes, last year CBMW set a goal to raise $30,000 in a matching donation drive –> CBMW Goes BIG!
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Corbin Martinez wrote:
“The John Piper Award for Complementarian Leadership: Keeping Females Submissive to Abusive Husbands – at least for a Season”
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Sophie wrote:
Very clever and true.
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That reminds me – I have yet to make a Christmas donation to Christians for Biblical Equality
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That video was unbelievable. If God is supreme, why are they focusing on praising man?
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Off topic but should be interesting to TWW readers:
Over at SBCToday there is, a few articles down, quite an interesting article on witnessing to the children raised in Reformed churches who are struggling and rejecting determinism.
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@ JeffT:
Perhaps that is what they fear the most…
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@ linda:
Thanks! I'll be sure to check it out.
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I think God was speaking to CBMW when he said:
I will accept no bull from your house Psalm 50:9 (RSV)
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When you believe as the CBMW does, as noted below, then you think very highly of your accomplishments, as an organization, and of the individuals who started your organization. After all, “the contemporary surge of interest in the gospel and the greatness of God has coincided with widespread adoption of complementarianism.”
ME – Are they serious!? Where are the facts that prove this? What a claim to make on your own History page. CBMW and their complementarian belief and teachings is responsible for a surge (revival?) . . . 🙄
cbmw.org/history/
“In 2013, many evangelical groups are convictionally complementarian. The contemporary surge of interest in the gospel and the greatness of God has coincided with widespread adoption of complementarianism, with many prominent churches, seminaries, authors, and para-church organizations joyfully celebrating God’s good design for manhood and womanhood, home and church.”
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So happy you are talking about this! People look at me like I’m crazy when I tell them there is actually an official organization with their sole focus on women in their ‘proper’ place. They are one of the biggest reasons I have chosen to go back to school and be an educated resister of this movement.
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Here I go again on this subject. What was going on post war and into the fifties and what P&G are doing are similar to the extent that some people thought one thing and some thought another. Other than that, there are some huge differences. I graduated from high school in 1952, went immediately for the one year at university covered by my only scholarship, and signed up as pre-med. That year the division of natural sciences called a meeting of all females who were registered pre-med. A fairly large lecture room was packed out. The told us, not everybody is going to make it, so be sure to have plan B fully functional by the time you graduate, because most of you are going to need it. There was not a frilly dress or pair of high heels or silly giggle among the group. And no suggestion of a put down from any faculty. Of course, nobody took videos or turned it into a comedy on TV.
So, “this is like the fifties” kind of misses part of the point. What they are saying now is the personal subjugation and sexual humiliation and economic impoverishment of women. To say that the TV programs of the fifties represented the lives of people in the fifties is like saying that reality TV represents the lives of most people today. Not exactly. Remember the old program General Hospital where some intern did neurosurgery in the ER (well, it was about that bad.) Does anybody believe that happened? Same way with some of the Hollywood and TV representations of happy housewives in frilly dresses and high heels getting orgasmic over tub cleaner and the latest refrigerator. Come on folks, let’s not believe too much of that, because a lot of hollywood fantasy is only because it sells as an escape, not because it is actually good documentary.
What P&G are selling is lots worse. If we just say that oh well, it is just the fifties again, then we will miss some of the truly awfulness of some of their thinking. When their compism requires the idea of ESS and they are willing to go to that level, this is way beyond just liking the idea of four kids and a station wagon.
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linda wrote:
Thanks for the heads up on this! I find it very telling that the author found it necessary to remain anonymous – it speaks volumes about the current culture fear promulgated by the powers that be in the SBC.
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Nancy wrote:
Or was the “Saint Elsewhere’s?” Anyhow, it was TV.
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Reverend Larry gives Reverend Moe the Award.
Reverend Moe gives Reverend Curly the Award.
Reverend Curly gives Reverend Larry the Award.
NYUK! NYUK! NYUK!
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Nancy wrote:
“And remember, just because you saw it on TV doesn’t mean it’s real!”
— media hoaxer Joey “Joe Bones” Skaggs
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Kathy wrote:
“You are Number Six.”
“WHO IS NUMBER ONE?”
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CBMW is giving out an award in Wayne’s name and one in John’s name? And all the recipients were men?
Are there no CBMW awards in the name of say, Mary, Jenny, Susie, Rebecca, Megan, Heather, etc? And none of the recipients were women?
It’s funny that a group of people who swear up and down they don’t view ladies as being lesser than men don’t involve women in awards or recognition.
Surely there are some women gender complementarians who they can award for writing blog posts or books telling women to dress modestly, stay visually appealing for their husbands, baking scrumptious casseroles for their Traditional Families, and guilt tripping other sisters to stick with the male-dominated lifestyle paradigm?
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Corbin Martinez wrote:
Mine isn’t so funny.
“The John Piper Flutterhands Award for Complementarian Leadership: Woman, Submit! Do as I say or I Beat You!”
“The John Piper Flutterhands Award for Complementarian Leadership: It’s God’s Punishment!!!”
“The John Piper Flutterhands Award for Complementarian Leadership: Male Supremacy Uber Alles (flutter flutter flutter)”
“The John Piper Flutterhands Award Against Muscular Women”
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The real legacy of Grudem and Piper is not these “awards” but the very real and lasting effects of their doctrines.
One of these legacies of Grudem, Piper, and all of the other Gospel Glitterati is the absence of all of the good that the females in their churches have been prevented from doing. How many women have been prevented from and shamed for serving the Body of Christ with all of the gifts God has given them.
These men and women bear the full responsibility for that just as the men who denied women access to a professional education bear the responsibility for delaying all of the benefits brought by women’s study. Let us not forget Marie Curie’s story, for there are many lessons there. Out of consistency, these men should abstain from every one of these benefits, but they will not because they are inconsistent hypocrites who care only for themselves.
Another legacy is in the souls and spirits of women who have been systematically taught that God created them lower than men, regardless of the meaningless and illogical disclaimers of these “scholars.” They claim, like Augustine, that women do not fully image God; female imaging of God is only derivative, through the male. While the Gospel Glitterati claim they are against abuse, they foster and promote the very ideas that nourish an abuser’s twisted thinking, and they shame and blame women for provoking that abuse by not being submissive enough. Remember that if Bruce Ware is the winner next year. I predict that Ware and Dever will be the next ones honored–Ware for “scholarship” and Dever for “leadership” because Dever claims that the integrity of the Gospel proclamation depends on maintaining male supremacy.
Their legacy to men is to teach them that they are failures so that those men keep coming back to the Gospel Glitterati for a fix for their souls. They teach men to disregard the importance of the women in their lives since the women are only auxiliaries in God’s plan for manly dominion. As a result, men lose the companionship that can only come from a peer who is equal but different.
Their legacy is the corruption of exegesis and the abandonment of established principles of hermeneutics. They are hypocrites who claim to uphold the authority of scripture, and they claim to honor God’s sovereign rule, but they substitute their own words for God’s words and twist what he has said to support their own agenda of male supremacy.
They usurp the authority of the God they claim to worship in order to serve their own lust for power and significance. To that end, they are willing to deny the full and equal authority and agency of the Eternal Son, rendering Philippians 2 meaningless. They are bold and brazen enough to order the Trinity along lines that please them and which they believe support their own deceptive doctrines.
These people are all about honoring and elevating and promoting one another. They are not about honoring God, his Word, or his Gospel.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
As I said above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5a45f1uy80
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Corbin Martinez wrote:
Not bad, not bad.
But try to work in words such as “Gospel” and “winsome” more.
Of course, I am a lady, so you can disregard my input on this if you wish, or pretend those were your suggestions all along. Ha ha.
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androidninja wrote:
Or Institutional Incest.
“If your Family Tree does not fork…”
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JeffT wrote:
LOL. 🙂
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For anyone who is interested in the substance of Kostenberger’s scholarship, google his name and 1 Timothy 2:15.
http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/12-Saved-Through-Childbearing.pdf
Start with “roles” and you get “roles.” Circular reasoning is what passes for scholarship these days in “complementarian” circles. Here is their governing hermeneutic: When a verse like verse 12 means what we want it to mean, then it means what it plainly says when taken out of context. However, when a verse like verse 15 does not mean what we want it to mean when it means what it plainly says when it is taken out of context, then it does not mean what it plainly says. Instead, it means what we make it mean so that it fits with our pre-determined agenda.
A shorter way of describing their hermeneutic: “Stop thinking and studying. We will tell you what to think and what the Bible means. The Holy Spirit indwelling you is too incompetent to teach you, so we will.”
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Greased lightning, oh my. When my daughter was seven or eight, her dance competition song was greased lightning. She loved it and sang it constantly, but she kept singing “supreme chips ‘n cream.” Well, we rented the movie to see what the lyrics really were. I’ll never forget sitting on the sofa with our popcorn and our little angel between us when the realization hit us. My husband said “you were right! It DOES say chips ‘n cream! ”
Good times.
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Bridget wrote:
That is a pretty big claim.
Also around this time was the rise of popularity of Weird Al’s “Mandatory Fun” album and Kim Kardashian’s nude rear end photos.
Can we chalk up the rise and spread of Weird Al parodies and nude hiney reality TV star photos to the interest in the Gospel too? Might as well, the connection seems just as haphazard.
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@ Nancy:
I have read many bios of actress Marilyn Monroe, whose career was most active during the 1950s. From reading those books, which recount the hurdles she faced due to being a woman in a male-controlled system, and from seeing vintage ads from that era show up on social media I visit, it looks to me that women were in fact way more limited in the 50s than they are now.
My mother also graduated from high school in the 50s and most definitely had attitudes about gender similar to what CBMW promotes.
As far as into the 1990s, when my family got pamphlets in our mail box from local Baptist churches, the sections on the material that was aimed at (married) women always came accompanied by stylized 1950s clip art of women – woman in 50 style dress with pearl necklace (seriously).
The housewife illustrations in these pages from 1990s churches were not of contemporary-looking women, but of June Cleaver house wife types.
Even if the 1950s were equality heaven for women or not as bad as some of us think it –
Gender complementarian Christians of today view the 1950s as an ideal decade for gender, because they view the 1950s as the good ol’ days, before nasty secular feminism came along in the ’60s or so and told women they didn’t have to be only wives and mothers.
I sometimes see men in their 50, 60s, older today, who lived during the 1950s, harken back to the 50s as an era they miss.
They miss the 1950s because they feel gender roles were more defined then, and women liked staying at home, raising a baby, and baking cookies all day then. Even if that was not the reality of the decade, that is never the less how gender complementarians I have come across on the internet view it, which I think is the pertinent part.
Feminists who came along in the 60s and after also seemed to spend a considerable amount of time criticizing the 1950s housewife role.
I had to read some of their work when I was in college, though that was years ago, and my memories of some of the stuff I read about that is vague and fuzzy now.
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@ Gram3:
There’s an entire section on “Women’s Protection Against Satan.” If you step out from your assigned role, according to article, you are open to being deceived by Satan. Again, we see the use of fear.
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@ Gram3:
Great observation of their thinking in this area re vss 12 and 15. But then, their thinking does not seem to be motivated by an overwhelming desire to actually conform their thinking to scripture but more to conform scripture to their way of thinking.
Or maybe they are just not right bright. Or maybe the serpent of genesis fame continues his enmity for women and they have listened to the wrong voice in the garden.
On the other hand the whole area of sex and childbirth has been rife with superstition and who knows what the author intended to be understood by the comment or what erroneous ideas he may have been dealing with. Think about the idea of defilement by childbirth requiring religious cleansing ritual x number of days after delivering a male and y number of days after delivering a female perhaps and how does childbirth affect a christian women who no longer (or never did) believe in ritual defilement and ritual cleansing associated with childbirth. Perhaps he is saying that faith, love. holiness and self-control are sufficient without the rituals. How do we know what his hearers thought he was talking about.
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Gram3 wrote:
I agree with the rest of your post too, but just wanted to say something about this part.
I was raised to think (by my church, Christian books I read, my traditional Christian mother) that being a submissive, compliant doormat was the godly, womanly biblical way to live life, even in the face of verbal (or other types of) abuse.
So I went along with that most of the time, and I noticed by my early 30s, it did not work, but I didn’t know why, and I didn’t know how to escape that.
In the past few years, I’ve read books by Christian and Non-Christian psychologists who explain that trying to appease selfish people or jerks or abusers actually enables the horrible person, and may embolden others.
You’re not going to change the dynamics of an abusive relationship (whether friendship, co worker at your job, marriage) by continuing to be nice, submissive, and loving to the abuser. What I learned from these books by psychologists is that you either have to be assertive with them, or leave the relationship.
So the usual advice I see by Christians to abused people (not just wives, but also to kids being bullied at school, or adults being harassed on a job), to submit more and be more loving to the abuser, is actually counter-productive, and is usually a guarantee for continued abuse, or the abuse escalates.
Gender comp organizations and preachers are keeping women in danger by advising them to stay married to abusers no matter what, and to keep submitting to the abuser.
As to your other comments below that, these views also hurt men, I agree.
I was reading a book by one psychologist who repeated quotes from her male patients, two of whom had this mindset that men can and should dominate women, and these men at first preferred submissive women. They said after years of dating/being married to submissive women, they were tired of it, though.
Those relationships (where the woman allowed the man to push her around) made them feel empty and alone, because their girlfriends/wives were not equal partners to weather the storms of life with, but doormats they could not lean on at times of crisis.
So the “man in charge, woman = doormat” perspective also shortchanges men, but some of them (the ones who find this message appealing), haven’t figure it out yet.
Some men think they will be happy living that way, with the women always deferring to the man, but the men who do live it out confided in that psychologist it made them unfulfilled and very lonely, and they now want an equal, not a submissive partner.
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Daisy wrote:
How dare you steal my idea and my inherent male authority! I command you in the name of John Piper to submit!
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@ brian:
Thanks for the you tube music vid! Those guys can really play. I love the black and bluesey motif they start with and how they it expand with verve and elan, kinda like a binomial term squared. Even though I totally reject Reformed theology, I can thoroughly appreciate the music for art and art's sake.
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@ Gram3:
I have been very disappointed by the lack of scholarship in conservative Christian circles. Disappointed because I really, truly want to learn what and why they believe. Unfortunately, such very basic scholarly courtesies like a chapter on prolegomena has essentially disappeared from the landscape. As a result, you end up with illogical and conflicting nonsense like the article you linked from Kostenberger, which really turns thinking people off. It is so plain that no kind of real thought went into this – it is just post-hoc justification for the received tradition.
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Gram3 wrote:
Yes! It has all been pre defined for us. Don’t question the assumption. Buy into “roles” and you are stuck in the circular reasoning.
But when you research and analyze the assumption, it falls apart. Basically they have taken biological facts and assigned them specific spiritual and physical roles.
But “roles” are something we pretend to be as in the historical meaning of the word. It really is insidious how that word was so easily adapted to define relationships in the Body.
It is almost as if some massive cult debriefing will have to take place in evangelism to change the thinking. Or pray the next generation won’t buy into roles. And not to worry, women will still have the babies!
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Gus wrote:
XD
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Not in the least Dr. Fundy, nor do they care. It’s almost a screenplay cribbed from Hans Christian Andersen’s immortal tale of a deluded emperor.
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Daisy wrote:
No, I can take your suggestions. But it has to be in a setting where it doesn’t feel like your femininity is trumping my MASCULINITY!!!!!! In any way. And I get to determine what constitutes trumping, not you. Because I’m a man. And you’re not.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I’m so sorry, Dr. Fundystan. / 🙂
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yours are more truthful than funny. 🙁
And I would say “GOSPEL GESTURES” is what they’d call his Broadway stuff.
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The first thing that came to my mind on reading the post was that “complementarian scholarship” is an oxymoron. Eternal Subordination of the Son is nothing other than classical heresy and bears no relationship whatsoever to scholarship.
I am aware of reputable Evangelical scholars who have left the ETS in the past 20 years or so, or who avoid being associated with it. It still holds its convention at the same time and in the same city as the Society of Biblical Literature, which is the current hub of the best true scholarship.
Nancy and Gram3, thanks for your insight.
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Nancy wrote:
Responsible methodology would include careful consideration of the cultural context of the Ephesians and what Paul and Timothy’s pre-understandings would likely have been. The parts of 1 Timothy which seem a little strange and disjointed make a lot more sense when the content of the Ephesian Artemis cult is considered.
It’s a forensic question, but the hierarchy freaks want to stop the investigation at the “plain meaning” of 2:12 by deploying their predictable intimidation and silencing techniques. Foremost of those is the “you are capitulating to cultural pressure” and “you are rebelling against God’s good and beautiful plan.” Of course, they never get around to actually demonstrating that what they assert is God’s plan is really God’s plan and not their creative revision of his actual plan.
In their world it is worse to be in favor of women’s equality than to deny the full authority and agency of the Eternal Son. That is the kind of twisting of reality we are talking about here. I think they have no intellectual or scholarly shame whatsoever. Take away their naked assertions and ad homs and they are left with nothing at all, much less anything that is remotely scholarly.
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Every time John Piper’s name comes up, we must all remember his video about wives submitting to physical abuse. This is what “John Piper Award for Complementarian Leadership” really means:
Jhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OkUPc2NLrM
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@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
but *thinking* goes counter o their entire program for imposing their ideas on everyone. Which means that a lot of us would be destined for “re-education” camps under their regime.
I am so, so sick of the way they think they have a right to swagger around and order their minions into line.
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Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
The Piper Goodbye Award?
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Just looked at the CBMW site, and at the meeting Owen Strachan said that complementarianism “is thriving because it works, because it orders life in a wise and sensible way.” I think my rhetoric sense is tingling.
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Corbin Martinez wrote:
Corbin, it will be left to you and your generation to undo the mess these men have created. You, regrettably, will also be the ones dealing with the consequences in the lives of those damaged by these doctrines. I hope that the Christian men and women of your generation will be secure in their identities *in Christ* rather than in Piper or in Grudem or in Mohler or in Ware or in Burk or, God forbid, in Owen (not John.)
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@ Gram3:
Yep, yep and yep. What intrigues me is why. Why the leadership puts so many eggs in this one basket, and why some people buy into it. I am thinking that chicanery and pathology have perhaps formed a partnership in some people in this area. Enough said, before I get myself into serious trouble.
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Corbin Martinez wrote:
It is actually a mutant strain of florid and overwrought rhetoric than Owen (not John) frequently employs, much to the embarrassment of Bowdoin and its other alums. Piper’s purple prose/peotry is from some other source, possibly Barnabas who I suspect is the twit behind Piper’s tweets. Peotry is not a typo. Piper is not a poet, and I know it.
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@ Gram3:
He went to Bowdoin?! Well, that *is* an embarrassment! (Note: I didn’t go there, but I bet people who did – along with the administration and faculty – are rightfully horrified.)
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Nancy wrote:
Lacking your discretion, I shall assert that it is money and power and the desire to protect their domain. Notice that they cite 1 Timothy 2:12 as being a universal decree from Creation. Then, for some reason they do not explain, this universal Creation ordinance does not apply in the public and secular domains. Now, they do say that the universal Creation ordinance of marriage extends to govern the civil authorities, however.
They have dropped numerous logical and exegetical stitches in this particular doctrinal doily, and I suspect that is intentional since they do not want to forgo the benefits they can selectively derive from women operating with freedom in spheres other than the church and home. Legalism always produces loopholes to be exploited by those who define the Law.
However, they *are* most concerned to protect their privileged position of authority in the domains where they can function as Kings. I suspect, based on the ones I have known, that these men could not function as Kings in any other domain. I seriously question whether some of them could function at all outside their insular bubble. Therefore we enjoy their irrational and even silly insistence on this being Essential to the Gospel, which translated means essential to their position. The privileged will always defend their privilege, using the Bible when expedient, emphasis on “using” and “expedient” and de-emphasis on Bible.
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numo wrote:
I don’t think Bowdoin should be blamed, and I know of a couple of people who would be embarrassed if they ever heard of Owen (not John.) For all we know, they did the best they could. Same could be said for my universities. 😉
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@ Gram3:
Yeah, I hear you! Same here, really.
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srs wrote:
Thinking a GoFundMe for that prize might be successful. Along with the “Nothing Less Than the End of Mohler” award. Just to be clear, I am referring to the end of Mohler’s influence and this rhetorical tic of his, not to the end of Mohler as a person. If he and Piper and the others would repent of this foolishness and Gendered Other Gospel, it would be a great blessing to the Church.
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Gram3 wrote:
Only time will tell. Hopefully we’ll get fed up with all these “biblical” gender roles
One reason why this stuff bugs me is that I’m growing up with parents that could be piper’s “exhibit A” of what not to be like in marriage. My dad is EXTREMELY emotional and sensitive; not in an exhibitionist piper way, but in what they’d call a “feminine” vulnerable way. He’s not the best “covering” for my mom. Meanwhile, she is much, MUCH more emotionally and mentally even than him. She usually “leads” in a situation. She’s been my main spiritual guide growing up, and gets things done in a very “masculine way”. So I guess they do have a complementarian marriage; just switch the genders. 😀
Oh, and by the way, I’m still a male, even with these parents! Granted, I may read feminist books and cross-dress every now and then, but at least it’s not as bad as some other egal kids. 😉
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Gram3 wrote:
Who’s Barnabas?
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@ Corbin Martinez:
hey – these CBMW types try to stifle the personalities of individual men and women (and their kids) with their stupid definitions of what people “should” be like.
Just so you don’t get mistaken for Fred Armisen’s character in the Woman and Woman First sketches on “Portlandia,” you’ll be fine. 😉
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@ Corbin Martinez:
I’ve been wondering about this, too…
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@ numo:
Until I started listening to Piper ‘n Pals, I didn’t realize how role reversed my parents were. What makes it funny is that they consider themselves complementarians, even though they don’t say that word, they just say “ Men are the head of families” and stuff like that.
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numo wrote:
I had to look that up. Why is it always the most masculine looking men who cross-dress? Doesn’t make sense.
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Gram3 wrote:
Have you noticed what Mohler has recently said about SSA and what Moore has recently said about gay children and gay marriage? Some folks have taken exception to their apparent change of position to some degree on these specific issues. I am wondering how this will play out in the world of comp uber alles.
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I would like to suggest that a lexicon fund be started for the Grudem scholarship winner. Here is why:
On June 2, 1997, when the initial Colorado Springs Guidelines were agreed on, Guideline B 1 originally read,
“Brother” (adelphos) and “brothers” (adelphoi) should not be changed to “brother(s) and sister(s).”
In The TNIV and the GNB, 2004, p. 425 – 426, Poythress and Grudem write, “Examination of further lexicological data (as indicated in chapter 12) showed that this guideline was too narrow.”
“The following refined guideline was approved on Sept. 9, 1997,
“Brother” adelphos should not be changed to “brother or sister”; however, the plural adelphoi can be translated “brothers and sisters” where the context makes clear that the author is referring to both men and women.”
What was the ‘further lexicological data’? In Poythress and Grudem’s own words,
“in fact, the major Greek lexicons for over 100 years have said that adelphoi, which is the plural of the word adelphos, ‘brother” sometimes means “brothers and sisters” (see BAGD, 1957 and 1979, Liddell-Scott-Jones, 1940 and even 1869).
This material was new evidence to those of us who wrote the May 27 guidlines – we weren’t previously aware of this pattern of Greek usage outside the Bible. Once we saw these examples and others like them, we felt we had to make some change in the guidelines.”
Anyone who claims that an 1869 lexicon is “new evidence” is sorely out of date and can hardly be called a scholar, nor should such an impoverished person be held up as a model. Basically, Grudem admitted not referring to the standard lexicons in drafting his language guidelines. This whole thing boggles the mind.
Grudem was likewise unaware that the KJV had “usurp authority” in 1 Tim. 2:12. He thought “assume authority” used in Calvin’s Bible was a “novel and suspect” translation.
Grudem definitely needs a donation of basic lexicons and Bibles. Sad to see someone these days with such poor biblical literacy.
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Nancy wrote:
Could you give me a heads up on what direction to look to find these recent statements? The last I’d heard, Moore was still saying that it’s a sin to experience attraction to people of one’s own sex / gender (they don’t make a distinction between the two, as shown in their atrocious statements about trans* people, but I digress). I did hear through the grapevine that Mohler no longer claims that all LGB people can become straight, which is an improvement, and sure to raise the hackles of many in his constituency.
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Corbin Martinez wrote:
Piper’s son and an exec at Lifeway, IIRC, despite not being SBC. I briefly read Barnabas’ stuff at DG years ago and decided to give that up for Lent rather than chocolate.
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@ Corbin Martinez:
well, Fred Armisen *is* playing a part in his own sketch show. Carrie dresses up like a biker guy named Lance for the show, too, although I don’t really think it works. (Fred plays her wife in those skits.) The Woman and Woman First sketches are, I think, funnier precisely because Fred plays one of the main characters.
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@ Win:
Grudem perseverates on kephale and on gendered/non-gendered nouns and pronouns. In an odd coincidence, that played out in the TNIV controversy that made Crossway a ton of money with their gender-correct ESV of which Grudem is the editor. Strange how that happened. The Gospel Glitterati were huffy and puffy about TNIV because, as we all know, translating “brothers and sisters” would be nothing less than the end of the faithful proclamation of the Gendered Other Gospel.
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Win wrote:
These guys depend on people being Biblically illiterate and ignorant. As soon as someone looks at their case using a sound methodology, their case goes poof. Chapter 3 in RBMW is a classic example of imaginary exegesis of Genesis and 1 Timothy.
Grudem ignores evidence that is inconvenient until he cannot ignore it any longer. Then it becomes new, I suppose, but it does not seem unreasonable to expect Grudem to examine lexicons when making translation decisions. They put the cherry in cherry-picking and the shaping in narrative-shaping.
Poythress is very disappointing on this point.
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@ Josh:
claiming that orientation and attraction are innately sinful is not only lacking in understanding and compassion – i believe it to be sinful as well.
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Josh wrote:
They each have a website, and also the website of the SBC ethics and religious freedom commission. I have not read anything from Moore about SSA, but he wrote about what is your child is gay and he has written about now that gay marriage is going legal how what should be the church’s attitude. Mohler’s thing about SSA is on his website. I am being careful to not quote anybody because there has been some foo faw about some people who did try to write about it.
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Nancy wrote:
I think it was motivated by the realization that the position WRT to SSA is not tenable, and way too many young people are aware of friends who experience SSA and choose to be celibate. It’s ridiculous to say that someone who refuses to act against their conscience by acting on their attraction is nevertheless sinful. My refusal to eat that second carton of ice-cream even though I want it is nevertheless sinful. And I do know that comparison is not exact, but sometimes it helps me to reduce an abstract argument to the absurd to see what we are really talking about.
I doubt that the SSA issue will affect their “complementarian” stance. The SSA thing is about keeping the conservative non-Calvinista pewpeons in the SBC on board with the leaders who are Calvinistas by pretending to be like-minded. Pure political posturing, IMO.
The “complementarian” stance is about protecting their exclusive access to the positions of authority. If women are ordained, then the supply of pulpit-fillers goes up and their power and income and prestige go down. They lose their selling point to insecure young men who are attracted to the ideas of male priority and entitlement to authority.
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Gram3 wrote:
kinda sorta doesn’t work for lgbtq people, either…
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numo wrote:
But it is very effective if you want to provide people with a reason to feel spiritually superior to other people. I would also say that it is sinful to force people with SSA into heterosexual marriage in order to “cure” them. That only creates more heartbreak. I wonder about other things, too. See George Rekers whose thinking, among others’, is behind this. That did not end well.
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numo wrote:
Yes, assuming their goal is to reach them with the Gospel. I don’t think it is, sadly.
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@ numo:
We turned off tv awhile ago, so I haven’t seen it. Sounds like something I’d watch.
And I was more of referring to media stereotypes than actual reality.
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@ Corbin Martinez:
I figured (stereotypes). You can probably see a lot of episodes of Portlandia – or at least clips from it – via the innerwebs. Seasons 1-3 are on Netflix streaming, too.
I have to say that I think both Fred Armisen and Carrie Brownstein are very talented, but I have to be in the right mood to watch the show. Their send-ups of white Portland hipsters are great, but all of the characters are irritating. (ONe of my least favorites is one played by Fred, a bicycle fanatic who calls himself Spyke. He sports a hipster macho look, which is truly absurd and very unattractive.) So, I can usually watch a single episode, but no more than that at one time. The 1st season was rocky, season 2 was pretty good overall, and the following seasons are better. Still, since it’s a sketch show, it’s going to be uneven.
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Gram3 wrote:
This is so true!
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@ numo:l
That is going to be a difficult one to untangle, and I wish he had not started down that road. The whole area of what does it mean if you say “just like that” or “born that way” or “innate” or “biological” (in relation to anything, not just SSA) has not been chewed to the bone, but I am thinking it will be now that AM has made his statement. And some of the position statements and arguments may be more destructive than much of what has been said up to this point.
I am not going to hurl myself into this no way and no how, but frankly I have heard some pretty worthless arguments put forth on both sides of almost everything related to this whole issue. I can’t stand bad arguments. And now AM has staked out a whole area for more bad arguments. And because the arguments themselves can be used in other areas and not just sexuality, this has real potential for lectures and books and videos and sermons and podcasts and seminar material and maybe even a poem from Piper.
Why, oh why, will they not listen to me tell them what to do. Oh, well, yes, but–alright that was a bad idea.
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Gram3 wrote:
But you can make a rhyme any old time. 🙂
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Nancy wrote:
Because you lack the requisite anatomical configuration at the same time that you possess the requisite reasoning skills that they lack.
Both of those make them very, very uncomfortable, and we must not make them feel uncomfortable.
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Corbin Martinez wrote:
Owen says it’s “thriving”? Really, Owen? The donations CBMW received last year were a mere $185k. Simple math tells us that the 26 people on their Council and the 9 on their board don’t give very much. Perhaps they don’t believe much in the organization!
I’m on the board of a Christian non-profit with fewer board members and zero council members, and we raised far more donations last year. These big name people don’t put their money where their mouth is.
As they say in Texas: “All hat and no cattle.”
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Janey wrote:
As Teal’c would say, “Indeed”.
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Nancy wrote:
LOL!! I certainly remember those ads in the magazines! “Make the little woman happy with the newest washing machine, vacuum cleaners, etc.” How silly those were!
I will admit, however, that beginning my course to become a paralegal in 1960, a “charm course” was required where we learned how to walk properly, dress appropriately, and (of course) apply makeup naturally. Barf! I chose not to pursue that career after learning there were more requirements about how to look than how to understand legal technicalities.
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@ Corbin Martinez:
What? Lol gram3, not Janey. Sorry
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numo wrote:
I was mistaken in my earlier comment. I can’t speak to what Moore has or hasn’t said, but it’s Denny Burk who’s gone far off into the weeds of heresy with his comments to that effect. A recent discussion of his comments (and many other things) can be seen here:
http://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/11/26/panel-on-the-sinfulness-or-otherwise-of-sexual-orientation/
Basically, as I understand it, he claims that the temptation of attraction to / desire for a person other than one’s spouse (for a straight person) or for anyone of the same sex (for a gay or bi person) is not like the temptation that Jesus experienced, and is sinful (if you’re seeing red flags, you’re doing well).
Gram3 wrote:
The ex-gay world was nonplussed that they weren’t invited to peddle their nonsense at the latest ERLC. After decades of telling gay men and lesbians that they could find “healing” aka heterosexuality by entering into mixed-orientation marriages in faith, I’m glad to see that even conservative Baptists are slowly turning away from that destructive message. Of course, Charisma News thought it was the end of the world (Google “Transformation of a Homosexual: What Change Looks Like”), but they’re pretty much totally irrelevant in my world. I feel for anyone who lives in a world where they are relevant. 🙁
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@ Corbin Martinez:
No problem, Corbin. Hey, consider giving your parents a break. They are doing the best they know how, and though they probably won’t tell you, they know like the rest of us that they are not getting it all right. And the consequences of that are terrifying to many if not all good parents. When we know better, we do better. And they’ve produced a sharp kid! Maybe someday they’ll be like me and learn from their grown kids. Of course, I try not to let them know it. 😉
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My spiritual head and master, Gramp3, has corrected me while discussing this post, and I am hereby repenting and submitting publicly.
This CBMW awards banquet is not *exactly* like a high school everybody-gets-an-award banquet nor is it *exactly* like a YMCA team where each tot gets a trophy. Very, very similar is not exactly the same as exactly the same. So I defer to his male judgment and acknowledge the slight differences, the greatest of which is the maturity of the participants. No comment or speculation regarding which participants are more mature will be forthcoming from either of us.
And Gramp3 chided me lovingly, as a servant-leader should, because I forgot the Biblical precedent for Biblical Leadership and Scholarship Awards recorded in 1 Piper and also in Grudemanations where the Lord presented awards to his disciples for being such amazing and special Theological Snowflakes. Certainly the Lord is Owen (not John)’s role model for gushing praises over these New Apostles of the Gendered Other Gospel.
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@ Gram3:
I know; I guess I do sound a bit grumpy with them, which isn’t the case. Remember I’m homeschooled, so I don’t have the relationships and life experience of most people, that’s one reason I use them as examples so much. I’ll Try and mention them less from now on, or if I do, make it less negative.
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@ Corbin Martinez:
It doesn’t sound like “role reversal” at all. It sounds like their personalities don’t line up with the stereotypes. I’m sure that they’re both trying the best they can, and, like Gram3 said, it might be wise to ease up on them a bit. I’m *not* trying to make you feel bad, but if you’re using your real name as a username, then your posts can easily be Googled, and I’m not sure if you want to have details of their lives splashed on a search results page.
There are many reasons for choosing a non-identifiable username, very much including what search engines (and therefore, anyone with an internet connection) can scrape up.
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Ai didn’t kbow this event took place so close to my whereabouts. I would have loved to make an appearance at their little gathering. I can only imagine why they chose San Diego for a destination. It seems a bit far from their usual haunts.
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@ numo:
Hmmmmm, I didn’t really think about that. Although I doubt anyone would care, I am easily paranoid and wouldn’t want just anyone to read about there lives. Think I should drop the Martinez?
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brian wrote:
Lately, I have been struggling with the same point, and I feel that my way of thinking about it was similar to yours.
‘But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?'” Romans 9:20
Often, I’ve seen those verses in Romans 9 being used to respond to people questioning about life, religion, God, the church… Basically, it goes like this: ‘How can you dare to question God’s will? How can you be so proud and arrogant to question God when we’re just clay in the potter’s hands?’ But people is not pottery. Pottery is inanimate and it has no means to even attempt to understand what happens around it. We can see, hear and feel the world, and then try to make sense out of it and see what’s our place in all of it… And, with this, I think that questions will inevitably come.
I’ve also come to struggle more and more with the very frequent reminders at church services of how sinful and wretched we are, poor lowly worms… It seems to me that many like to focus on that particular issue, and don’t go much further from it except to say that Jesus is the solution. The thing is that I recognise that I think, say and do things that are plainly wrong. I accept that reality and try to own it, as much as it is possible for me; and I realise that, compared with the standards set by a holy God, my best efforts to act lovingly are very paltry, to say the least… However, I wonder sometimes, is it necessary to remind us about it every single Sunday? Is that what some Reformed people mean when they talk about “preaching yourself the gospel every day”? Basically to remind yourself that you’re as worthless as pottery that could be broken at any point without giving it a second thought?
I am exaggerating a bit on purpose. I know that that isn’t all there is to it, but at times it certainly feels like it when certain messages are repeated week after week from the pulpit.
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@ Corbin Martinez:
You’ll be fine, I’m sure, and we all enjoy your comments. It’s refreshing to have a young point of view!
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Daisy wrote:
Kim’s photos did nothing for me, but we can’t have enough Weird Al in the world.
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@ Martos:
Thinking out loud here, but maybe Paul’s emphasis is on our *right* to question God and not about God’s response to our questions. As the Creator, he reserves the absolute right to destroy what he alone has created by his own will. We are contingent beings, after all.
But instead of destroying the pottery, he chose to redeem it. IOW I see the illustration being one of relative *rights* not a statement that people are merely pottery. Certainly it is possible, I think, that humanness is as far removed from Godness and pottery is from the potter.
God is not an angry potter looking for a reason to smash the pots like a human potter would. He has every right to do that, but out of the abundance of his mercy, he wants to re-make the pots as he intended them to be. He is the potter, but he is also the loving heavenly Father who endures the sin and questioning of his children because he has become one of us. He knows us, including the fact that we are dust. Why he loves us is a mystery to me!
Romans is a very densely argued letter, and it is not easy to understand, but people who harp on our wormness forget or hide that our Lord became one of us and has lifted up all who are in Christ as fellow-heirs with him.
The Gospel Glitterati see broken pots that God is ready to smash in Romans 9. They see God’s wrath and impatience. I see broken pots that God intends to re-make and God’s love and patient lovingkindness.
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Josh wrote:
Small comfort for my GLBT friends. ERLC spent a lot of time talking at and down to GLBT persons but they had no out GLBT persons as speakers at their meeting. There were accredited GLBT journalists at the ERLC meeting and they were none too impressed by the goings on particularly because of the exclusion.
From my vantage point outside it just appears to me that ERLC is spitting in the wind. Just my personal opinion.
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Bridget wrote:
Well, November in San Diego is pretty nice compared to, say, Chicago or Louisville. Their travel expenses are probably reimbursable, so why not go for someplace pleasant? Grudem showed the way when he exercised authority over his wife and moved them from Chicago to Phoenix, not because he wanted to leave Chicago after twenty-plus Januaries, but because he was willing to sacrifice personally for Margaret’s health. What a guy. No wonder they love him.
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@ Corbin Martinez:
Corbin M., maybe? I’m not trying to scare you; i had a *very* bad experience with someone who knew my real name – they got kinda stalky. So i only use my real name on the internet for banking and business-related things. It helps keep any potential repercussions from blog/forum comments to a minimum.
Also, potential employers Google people; so do college admissions staff and potential significant others snd just about anyone you can think of. So it’s wise to keep tabs on personal comments and information that we would rather not have out there for the whole world to see, you know?
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@ Josh:
I try to avoid reading *anything* Denny Burk says. It’s bad for my blood pressure.
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@ Martos:
Forgot to say that Romans 9 should be read along with Philippians 2. The Word who became flesh and set aside his prerogatives is also the sovereign Creator in John 1. But taking stuff out of context is what they do. Don’t let ’em get away with it.
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numo wrote:
I dig it.
Thanks for telling me. 😀
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@ Corbin Martinez:
De nada!
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mirele wrote:
Oh, I agree! I didn’t feel welcomed or included based on what I read about this ERLC, either. Still, I felt it was worth pointing out that they did make a small shift that, while inconsequential from my perspective, caused a good bit of a ruckus in a closely related sphere. I learned about it by way of a couple of straight people who constantly promote ex-gay articles – in this case, the Charisma News article I mentioned previously – on Facebook.
And to your point about their selection of speakers, I see that they didn’t even have anyone who falls within the category of “out and celibate.” Just a bunch of straight people and a few “don’t say gay” gay people. Ergo, completely irrelevant in my world.
numo wrote:
I should take your advice. He’s toxic.
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From the OP:
First, what is immense ballast? Is Owen (not John) admitting that CBMW as a movement is unstable without Grudem’s [ahem] scholarship? Perhaps it was one of those annoying autocorrections and he meant to write that Grudem has provided immense *bombast* to the movement. At least immense bombast makes more sense grammatically and historically.
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I know. This felt like satire.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
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@ Josh:
If he was consistent, no one should date ever, because otherwise we might become attracted to the person we’re dating or, even worse, choose who to date based on whether or not we’re attracted to them. So the only solution other than celibacy is for our parents to arrange our marriages for us and make sure we never see our spouse before we get to the altar. And even that could screw up because when we see them at the altar, we might realize they’re attractive before we’re done saying our the vows.
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Victorious wrote:
As in you were training to be eye candy for the REAL lawywers?
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Janey wrote:
“Rejoice! The chocolate ration of twenty grams has been INCREASED to ten!”
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Corbin Martinez wrote:
Because People are Weird.
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Gram3 wrote:
And actors play roles.
Anyone here remember the Koine Greek for “actor”?
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If someone in my secular field wanted to name an award after me, I’d tell them no dice. Why are Piper and Grudem not protesting – and disavowing if necessary – the use of their names for these awards?
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yes they are.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W7MWW1DKFs
😀
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Sophie wrote:
The Eighteen-fifties, I should say….
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If you want the truth of the matter, this Rabbi and his wife will tell you what the Bible actually says translated from the original Hebrew and Greek.
For starters, the word ‘head’ translated correctly is ‘source’. There’s no headship here at all. God is the source of Adam and Adam is the source of Eve.
Freeing Women From The Bondage of False Doctrines
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhxiYibwbhI&list=UU3q-ByZ2eoOikcEiajMYXXA
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Win wrote:
Yes, but scholarship is not really the point for these people. There is no “complementary scholarship”, just as there is no “egalitarian scholarship”. There is just scholarship that goes wherever the best information leads.
They just use their poor pretence of “scholarship” to find any argument that supports their agenda¹, however weak. This is not scholarship at all, it’s propaganda, it’s driven by their ideology.
Translation guidelines are necessary for any larger translation project done by more than just one or two people. Usually a translation memory also makes sense. But that anybody should set out to draft guidelines on how something is to be translated WITHOUT consulting the best available tools is beyond me. Grudem – not so much of a scholar then.
I’m astonished about Köstenberger a bit. He is originally Austrian, and I met him twice for about a week, in the early eighties. He seemed like a pretty clever guy. Pity he has allowed himself to drift along this ideological path.
—————————
¹ After so much handwringing about the “homosexual agenda” and the “feminist agenda”, isn’t it about time someone did something about the complementarian agenda – since it’s definitely harmful to real people?
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Gram3 wrote:
You can, believe it or not, discuss this verse at great length. But it refers to the church and not the world. Now the whole world lies in the power of the evil one, and regulates its behaviour without regard for anything it Creator ever said, indeed it is in rebellion against its Creator, but the church is different.
The point is, how the creation doctrine is worked out in practice for a non-religious setting is a different argument as to how this is worked out in the gathered church.
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By pretty much all accounts, John Piper and Wayne Grudem are honorable men.
*
I am certainly a “fanboy” of honorable men.
*
We need more of them.
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Tim wrote:
Am I the only one reminded of Paige Patterson and his bunch? No objection to being immortalized in stained glass now. They don’t even have the humility to wait until after they’ve passed on.
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Bridget wrote (quoting the CBMW’s own website):
And, of course, they don’t say how many churches, authors and organizations, or which ones. They just generally pat themselves on the back, providing no numbers that anyone can verify or disprove. Whom do they think they’re convincing, apart from themselves?
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In other news, a week of fierce weather is in prospect for the north Atlantic, with an intense low expected to sink into the 930-millibar range on Tuesday. Storm-force winds are forecast for Scotland on Wednesday, even though the low will have started to fill by then.
The deepest low ever recorded in the north Atlantic was the so-called “Braer Storm” of 1993. According to best estimates, the central pressure dropped to 914 mb – weather buoys in the region were only designed to read as low as 925, and were stuck on that reading until the storm passed. The storm was named after the oil tanker MV Braer, which was broken up off the coast of Shetland by the enormous waves. Conditions were so violent that, even though over 80,000 tons of crude oil leaked into the sea, visible slicks (though not the less-visible environmental damage) disappeared within days.
I hope this is helpful.
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Ken wrote:
True WRT that particular verse. But that isn’t the whole of the argument re: marriage and men and women. They take 1 Timothy 2:12 back to creation and explain that males were placed over females as part of the order of Creation. That is how they shoot down the argument that 1 Timothy 2:12 is culture-bound. They say, “No, no, no, males were put in leadership and authority over females as part of God’s Creation order.
Therefore, they conclude, the instructions in 1 Timothy 2:12 are universal. I’m saying that if males are, in fact, put by God in authority over females from their creation, then it is inconsistent to say that that creation order no longer applies in the secular realm but does still apply in the church and home.
Genesis is quite clear that the creation mandate is rather universal and certainly includes working. However, the horse of women working in the Western marketplace has left the barn and the barn has burned down. They know a hopeless cause when they see it. Besides, their kids’ pediatricians and their cardiologists are probably women, so accommodations must be made.
WRT to marriage, they say that one-man-one-woman marriage is instituted in Genesis and the civil state is bound by that because it is a Creation Ordinance. IOW, it is universal and not culture-bound. So, in the case of marriage, the Creation Order does apply in the civil sphere, but in the case of male authority over females the Creation Order does *not* apply in the civil sphere and only to the home and church.
This is bare nekkid Special Pleading. And that doesn’t even include the problems with even getting to their assumption that the Creation Order is male authority over females which include skillful deployment of the Straw Man army and making their argument march in circles. I’m just assuming their narrative of the Creation Order for argument’s sake. They are inconsistent with just about everything. And that happens when one must adjust the evidence to fit the a priori conclusion rather than reaching a conclusion based on the evidence and reason.
You and I should really discuss this whole thing sometime. I’m quite sure we could resolve the matter quickly. 😉
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Tim wrote:
Because they think that exalting themselves is a grand and awesome thing?
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I’m renaming it the “John Piper & Wayne Grudem Complementarian Overcompensation Award for Scholarship and Leadership”.
They’ve already made Complementarianism a mouthful. Why not make the award a huge mouthful?
I think it’d be tough to shorten it to “The John-Wayne Award”, but the CWBW will want the name to be as long as possible, I’m sure.
What better way for those guys to make up for their deficits than by hosting an awards ceremony, and giving themselves all a little bang to end out 2014!
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Lydia wrote:
“Roles” is the ad hoc device which George Knight III created out of thin air to fend off female ordination in the OPC and PCA. He was also one of the founders of CBMW. Big Surprise!
Roles is all they have. If they don’t have roles assigned by God, then they have nothing to support their lust for superiority and power and adoration. Knight attempts to evade the ontologically-equal but necessarily-functionally-unequal logical idiocy by invoking yet more lunacy and asserting the Eternal Subordination of the Son. The Eternal Son didn’t complain about being eternally submissive to the Father, so why should a woman?
For fun, we can take a look at the logic and exegesis in Knight’s paper for ETS:
http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/18/18-2/18-2-pp081-091_JETS.pdf
When he came up with this in the 1970’s there was a lot of pressure in the PCA to keep women from being ordained as they were being in the PCUSA. So this is the best rationale he could summon to fend off that pressure.
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Gram3 wrote:
I fear that is right. This reminds me of John 10:43 – “for they loved human praise more than praise from God.” That doesn’t make me feel anything but heartsick for these people and those who look up to them.
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It’s the 25th Anniversary of the day that Marc Lepine stormed into the Montreal Polytechnic looking for “Feminists” who were daring to study engineering. He killed 14 of them and injured many others. Enough said!
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Once again, a new teaching from the Rabbi on this subject as he translates God’s Word from the original Hebrew.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSkv0kcd-U8&list=UU3q-ByZ2eoOikcEiajMYXXA
What Churches Don’t Want Women To Know!
It’s not enough to know compartmentalists are wrong. You have to prove it, and this certainly does.
God bless.
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Daisy wrote:
Daisy –
Please take a quick look at the biography of Dr. Grace Murray Hooper who in the 1950’s lead the team that invented the COBOL computer language. She was not limited at all in a male-controlled system. Her talent and ability was recognized and rewarded.
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Janey wrote:
You’re right Janey, the arithmetic just doesn’t work out. Mayhap our blog queens could do a post on just how much currency CBMW really has in the wider Evangelical world.
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Joe2 wrote:
I appreciate greatly your mention of her because women are not supposed to be able to think logically and mathematically. But she is an exception that proves the rule. I wonder how she would have been rewarded in a system that was not male-dominated and which did not require women to be extraordinarily determined to succeed despite the social obstacles.
During the war, women demonstrated that they could do what men could do. They were allowed to enter the public workforce en masse because it was essential. Once their competence was demonstrated in jobs beyond the traditional female jobs, there was no going back. But privileges are rarely surrendered easily.
I wonder how many women like her have been discouraged from pursuing careers that would have greatly benefited humanity? At what cost has male-dominance come? What is the cost of females being blocked from ministering in the church still? Those are questions for these manly men to answer.
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Gram3 wrote:
Then the war ended, and the men came back and wanted their old jobs back (pushing the women back into women’s work) just like before the war.
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Faithful wrote:
That video is well over an hour long, and the opening credits feel way too much like the “End Time Prophecy Fulfilled In Today’s Headlines” genre for me to watch any further.
Can you summarize?
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Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
“Augustus wasn’t proclaimed a god until after his death. Now Caligula has himself proclaimed a god while he’s alive to enjoy it.”
— Alister Cooke intro to an episode of “I, Claudius”.
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Josh wrote:
I spent most of last night in the YouTube time warp watching “Nub TV”‘s wannabe reality show “Nut Shot Compilations” of all these creative ways to deliberately shatter your own pubic bone on-camera. And “POR Stunts/The Dangerous Stunt Crew”s similar videos of stunts that usually involved lighting themselves on fire in various ways — without any protective gear. The former should have had a soundtrack of “The Nutcracker Suite” and the latter of “Chacarron Macaron”.
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Joe2 wrote:
In addition to what Gram3 said, let me add the following list of women whose talent was not recognized and rewarded – they were all crucial to research that resulted in Nobel Prizes for the men involved but they were left off:
Rosalind Franklin – the discovery of DNA
Jocelyn Bell Burnell – discovered pulsars
Esther Lederberg – her and her first husband discovered replica plating of bacteria, but only her husband and another man were given the Nobel Prise for it
Chien-Shiung Wu – an experimental physicist whose work was crucial to disproving the law of parity – two of her colleagues got a Nobel Prize for it though.
There are others as well, so even at the highest levels of science women have been marginalized.
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P.S. I’m not joking. Here’s a sampler:
“Ten Most Creative Nutshots” — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF_rWzDlL5U
I am sure “alcohol was involved” in a lot of these — “Hold my beer and watch this!”
What gets me (especially the bowling ball down the playground slide one) was these guys all act like they didn’t think it was going to hurt right up to the moment of impact.
Yeah. It’s lowbrow humor. About as lowbrow as you can get. But still more honest than these MenaGAWD and their antics.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yes and no. The men did come home and there was a push for the women to relinquish jobs to the men. However, some of the jobs had been war jobs and they existed no more, like the airplane factory in my town which almost shut down due to less demand and eventually turned into an International Harvester plant. The women were not pushed back into women’s jobs so much since the women’s jobs were already filled. What a lot of women did was quit work, stayed home (a post-war subdivision frequently) and had the stereotypical four children, large dog and station wagon. Some of the women refused to do that (or could not for various reasons) but I do not know what percentage of people did what. Many of the women were only too glad to get on with their goals of family and had been waiting for the men to get home to do so. Being on the line in a war production plant was not the life’s goal of everybody, don’t you know. It was this rush to reproduce that instituted the boomer generation; this is what the boom (in the birth rate) was.
That was the 40s. By the 50s we were in another war (Korea) and that was yet a different story. The way I hear a lot of talk nowadays it seems that some women think that everything that happens to affect their lives is due to some evil male influence. In other words they seem to be saying that war or no war, good economy or poor economy, changing social values in general or not, changing religious ideas or not, developments in technology affecting the work place or not, the availability of the pill and such have no impact on women’s lives and choices, it all about the mean old men. That is way too simplistic to be accurate.
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Headless Unicorn Guy said:
“That video is well over an hour long, and the opening credits feel way too much like the “End Time Prophecy Fulfilled In Today’s Headlines” genre for me to watch any further.”
And:
“I spent most of last night in the YouTube time warp watching “Nub TV”‘s wannabe reality show “Nut Shot Compilations” of all these creative ways to deliberately shatter your own pubic bone on-camera.”
Priorities, I guess.
Okay, in summary, the Rabbi is Institute of Biblical Studies and proves that certain key areas have been mistranslated from the original ancient texts. This is where we get many of the heresies we see today.
Being Jewish, he speaks Hebrew. Being a Rabbi, he can quote chapter and verse in his sleep.
You spent an entire evening watching a dullard take a bowling ball in the crotch but you can’t spare an hour for this?
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Home-baking day in the Clan Bulbeck.
Sigh… so much cake, so little glycaemic control.
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Nancy wrote:
Yes it is simplistic, and for sure everything is not the fault of men. Sin is an equal opportunity phenomenon, but the fact is that for most of history men have had most of the opportunity to sin by domineering. Women found sinful ways around that, but that’s just a rational response to a wicked system. I would be the very last one to complain about the men in my life who could have been domineering but instead have been loving and supportive. But I also know that other women have not had the advantages that I have had.
To expand on what you wrote, in my experience, you are correct when you write that the women and men were eager to get on with their lives which had been, at best, suspended by the war. The point was not that all women wanted to work in defense factories but that they proved that they were capable of doing that work and doing it well. That put the lie to the cultural assumption that had not been seriously tested before.
That reality undermined a significant cultural belief that women could not do “men’s” work, at least as well as men could. Without the exigency of war, I wonder if that would have happened over such a short time? Suburban life was possible for many, but not all, due to the post-war economic boom and people made choices based on what was possible for them, just like always.
The Great Depression and WW2 disrupted a lot of paradigms. My own family was greatly affected by the Dust Bowl, yet how many nowadays even know what that was about or the changes it brought about in agriculture, economics, family structures, etc.
I think that reliable birth control is a great blessing to women. I think that freedom, like any freedom, can be and is abused, and the abuse of that has brought some bad consequences. But the bad consequences are due to sin and not to technological advances. People misbehaved before the pill, but it just manifested in different ways. The genealogical DNA projects have shown that there were a remarkable number of “paternal events” that went unrecognized.
Men and women in the West take safe childbirth for granted but it is very dangerous for mother and baby both. These powerful and influential men don’t understand that or they don’t care. I long for the day when, especially in the church and in the Christian home, that men and women can appreciate and love and respect one another as equal but different amazing creations of God without all of this other garbage brought about by sin and perpetuated by men posing as Christian leaders.
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@ Nancy:
Forgot to say that your historical recollections are very interesting to me. I often forget that my story does not reflect everyone’s story, so it’s good to get other points of view and interpretations.
What do you think are the most productive ways to encourage both men and women without one blaming the other which is never productive? I don’t think there is enough discussion in a positive direction on this topic. Maybe that’s not the best way to frame it, but it’s all I’ve got right now. I am so sick of the negativity.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
Someone close to me must watch all things glycemic carefully. How do you handle baked goods? Splenda? Almond meal?
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@ Gram3:
Ah, now you’re asking me something. Up until about 10 days ago I took one unit of fast-acting bolus insulin for every 40 gram3’s of carbs or so and Bob was your proverbial Uncle. Then last Friday it all went pear-shaped, for reasons I still haven’t got to the bottom of yet. I may need to transfer to a slightly slower-acting bolus insulin (my basal insulin is fine).
Fortunately, I love exercise, so I’m off for a 900-meter hill climb before work tomorrow.
I have no plans to move to Splenda. I’d rather just cut back.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Hah. You don’t even want to think about how pear-shaped 40 gram3’s of carbs can make you.
Bob the Proverbial Uncle???
Insulin pump is a no go for you? Only experience I have is with the long-acting pen for type 2 (not for me.) Hope you get things squared away from their pear shape soon.
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Faithful wrote:
I like to know what I’m going into. With “Nutshot Compilations” you know what you’re getting from the title alone.
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Nancy wrote:
That’s just the genderflip of the patrio/comps blaming everything on Feminism.
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What next? A Grudem Statue? Piper in Bronze?
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JeffT wrote:
Permit me to add a heroine of mine, Hypatia of Alexandria. Her work with the Conic Sections was monumental in the early 5th century. I am of the opinion that had she not been murdered by a mob of religious zealots who took Exodus 22:18 and Paul way too seriously, she might have gone on to predate Kepler’s work by many centuries.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
There’s a game show in Japan based on the premise that the [male] contenders are struck in the groin with a paddle when they answer a question incorrectly. We’re mere amateurs by comparison. 😮
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@ Josh:
There is a word for these goings on. ‘Decadence’
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Paula Rice wrote:
The John-Wayne Award was very clever! Only problem is I think John Wayne appreciated the ladies more than these two.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Where’s this from? I only know it from that Iron Maiden song
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How about the “John Piper Look At Me” award
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or the “John Piper Markov Chain Tweet” award.
Of course this would be awarded alongside the “John Piper It’s Not Pretentious, it’s Mysterious and Deep” award (previously known as the “John Piper Just Because I wrote It I Don’t Need to Explain it” award)
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
This only confirms my belief that Idiocracy was actually a documentary
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Dave wrote:
I believe it’s from the cult 1960’s series “The Prisoner”, starring Patrick McGoohan. It was filmed in Portmeirion, North Wales, which really does look like that, though it was raining when I went there back in about 1978.
One of the very first albums I bought was Killers by Iron Maiden. I quite liked it musically, although all the songs on it are about violent death apart from The Ides of March, and that’s only because it’s an instrumental.
The Iron Maiden classic “The Trooper” strays, to my mind, into the realms of paradox. It is narrated in the first person, and in the present tense, by an anonymous cavalryman caught up in the Charge of the Light Brigade. Needless to say, the narrator dies violently at the end of the song. Which raises the question… who narrates the song next time it’s played?
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@ Gram3:
Gram 3
I don’t have time to write out it all out, but a few years ago I dissected this passage with just my lexicon, blueletterbible.org and scripture4all.org. I feel like I came up with a very viable translation and I even ran it by 3 well known scholars at a CBE conference who said it works. If you have time, see what you think.
It’s this: I found that the reference to a female at all is added to verse 15. It’s not in the original. Take out she or they when the translation means women for they that is a borrowing from verse 14. Then figure back to the earlier verses that go back and forth from Adam to Eve about who sinned first or who was tricked. Then the whole passage finally makes sense. The whole point Paul was making was that who was first didn’t matter for salvation, both could be saved. Verse 15’s they refers to both Adam and Eve who would be saved by the child-bearing if they (Adam and Eve) have faith. This goes along with scholars who say that the child-bearing could refer to the Messiah that was coming through the seed of the woman. The child-bearing that produced (Christ) only saves if we have faith in Him.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
The furthest I care to go here is The CBMW Award For The Person Who Best Demonstrates That Just Because She’s Only A Woman, It Doesn’t Mean She Can’t Make A Special Contribution Too.
You might affectionately call that the Ooh, nice cooking – I don’t think a male chef could have done much better! award.
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I really don’t see why it is necessary to try to make 1 Tim 2: 12-15 say something at all other than what it seems to be saying. Another approach is to say that what the author is saying was consistent with the thinking of the day but we no longer believe that or operate like that. We certainly take that approach with slavery and various scriptural statements (or lack of them) relative to slavery. And many if not most of us do that with certain things that do not jibe with evidence, like six-day young earth creationism and Noah’s flood as physically covering the entire planet. We do not any more refer to the world as having corners or pillars for support, for example. We all (I think) read the OT descriptions of leprosy and say that whatever they were talking about it is not what we today call leprosy. Most of us do not condone polygamy, and in the process we handle certain statements in scripture differently from how those who do condone it handle those same references, mostly by saying that was then and this is now. And look at how people argue about tithing or not tithing, by saying that well the NT statements referred to OT stuff and not us. And lots of folks are total cessationists and lots more are partial cessationists without trying to re-interpret scripture; just saying that was then and this is now.
In other words, just saying that something does not apply to us today, for any one of several reasons, is something we do all the time. Why get hung up on male and female as seen a couple of thousand years ago and believe that this must be handled differently from the other things that most of us no longer believe applies to us?
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Ah, that makes some sense. The song I know it from is also called The Prisoner from the album The Number of The Beast
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Nancy wrote:
For me it is that these people are saying that they are conservative and that the Bible means what it says. Those are the people I believe are being dishonest and pretending to do something which they do not do and leading many astray. If someone wants to look at the Bible in a particular way like the one you suggest that doesn’t create that tension, then these verses or even the entire gendered gospel is not a problem. But some of us, as you aptly described it, have been resurged upon and our churches are no longer our churches.
It *is* a problem when people say they are bound by certain conservative hermeneutics and then just throw them out the window when that methodology does not yield the required result. They throw the word “liberal” or “feminist” at anyone who disagrees with them because they say we are abandoning the authority of Scripture when it is they who are twisting it and taking it out of context and using their own ad hoc hermeneutic to support their human tradition. They and their trusting audience are the ones I’m concerned about.
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@ Patti:
I’ll take a careful look at it. I am persuaded that “childbearing” is properly “the Childbearing” and I think that Paul is making multiple points with that. In addition, I believe it is imperative to carefully consider the historical and cultural context of the Ephesian letter, as every scholar should do when looking for the meaning of a text. Of course they want to impose their own cultural assumptions on the text while saying that those who disagree with them are the ones who are invoking their own cultural bias which conveniently preserves their status and control. And cash flow. We must never forget the cash flows.
To just broadly assert that a confusing passage means “what it plainly says” is naive and bad scholarship. And they would shriek if someone did that with other verses. It is all so hypocritical. Doing what Kostenberger and the others do puts the false veneer of scholarship over something that is nothing like scholarship.
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Gram3 wrote:
That does not make sense. Should be a period after “cultural bias” followed by “That conveniently preserves their status and control.”
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JeffT wrote:
Jeff T –
Madame Curie wasn’t marginalized. She is known for her work on radioactivity and twice won the Nobel Prize.
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Joe2 wrote:
She had to go to France to study because she was not permitted to enter the university in Poland because she was a woman. That is pretty marginalizing, and it was due to the church’s bad doctrine of gender. Thankfully Pierre was a little more informed and recognized her gifts. They are a great model of a married couple working together as a team and supporting one another. Imagine the story if CBMW had their way. I think every last one of them should refuse to benefit from anything she discovered. That would demonstrate that they really believe what they preach.
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@ Patti:
Took a look, and the “she” refers either to the “woman” who was domineering the man in vs. 12 or to Eve since those are the only women mentioned in the previous context. “They” who will be saved is either Adam and Eve or the domineering woman and the man being dominated or possibly the people in the church who were promoting the false doctrines Paul mentions at the beginning of the letter.
In view of the content of the Ephesian Artemis cult, I tend toward believing that the “she” refers to the domineering woman and the “they” refers to that woman and the man she is domineering. The point I think Paul is making is that, as you said, the order of birth/creation is unimportant and that women are not ultimately saved through childbearing via Artemis but that all will be saved completely through The Childbearing who was the Seed born of a woman.
In short, I believe that Paul is correcting wrong doctrine in a very straightforward way, just like he did with the Corinthians and the Galatians. The Artemis cult taught that women had the knowledge and men did not, that the woman was born first and the man second, and that women should be in the place of authority over men. Only women were priests in the Artemis cult and men had to be castrated to serve. Bearing children was not encouraged.
That’s how I make sense of the entire letter with its references that are obscure to us. It does not seem reasonable that Paul would have to tell Timothy not to let a woman teach men at Ephesus. If the gender of the teacher is so crucial, it seems to me that Timothy would have known that. Why would Paul, a rabbi, need to invoke his apostolic authority to tell Timothy, a Jew, not to let a woman teach a man?
There has to be a reason for that, and I think that some women who were untaught in the scriptures were bringing teaching of the cult of Artemis into the church and causing all sorts of problems in the church and also spreading these false teachings from house to house. Paul commanded them to learn in vs. 11 and to stop teaching the false doctrines, settle down, get married, and have babies contra the teaching of Artemis.
Grammatically your interpretation works, I think, since the “she” and “they” could reasonably refer to Adam and Eve. It certainly makes more sense than Kostenberger’s rank speculation and eisegesis and circular reasoning. It takes an entire article for Kostenberger to explain why a few verses mean what they never even mention but which is foremost in his thinking.
Isn’t it rewarding to dig into the text and the contexts using the tools we have available and listening to the Holy Spirit teach us instead of just being indoctrinated by the “scholars?” Thanks for writing your comment because it gave me some food for thought and a good reason to look at those texts again.
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Joe2 wrote:
Joe2- If your point is that women have been historically welcome in the scientific world and allow to rise to whatever heights and receive whatever awards their talents allow, I strongly disagree. The names I listed were just some of the women whose denial of a prize by the Nobel Committee are considered to be the most blatant travesties. If we both put together lists of women whose scientific achievements were recognized vs. those who were denied recognition because of their gender, my list would be much longer than yours. Moreover, the history of the scientific world itself attests to the marginalization of women in the field, just the same as the history of society itself. It’s an issue we can further debate if you wish, but I think that to deny that women have been marginalized in science historically is to deny history itself.
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Gram3 wrote:
i.e. “What’s Yours Is Mine and What’s Mine Is Mine!”
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Gram3 wrote:
i.e. a Female Supremacist cult in the midst of a Male Supremacist culture (Communism begets Objectivism). Sounds almost like a cartoon of X-Treme Feminism — RL “Feminazis”, to use the Rush Limbaugh term.
And St Paul’s letter against this Female Supremacist cult’s influence in the Ephesian church was used by later generations to justify Male Supremacy by Divine Right.
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Gram3 wrote:
I had experience with “the plain words of SCRIPTURE” and “the Bible means what it says” during the Age of Hal Lindsay. Do I need to again trot out my examples?
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Paul had a lot of work to do de-programming people with their prior assumptions, whether they were pagans or Jews or Gentiles or women or men. I think he had to undergo his own de-programming before his ministry started. The point he makes in different contexts is that in the Kingdom, none are above anyone else. We are brothers and sisters and co-heirs, just like in Genesis 1 where Adam and Eve were “brother” and “sister” before the Lord God.
In Corinthians, status was claimed on the basis of gifts or wealth. In Galatians it was ethnicity. In Ephesians it is females and males. We are all messed up by our prior assumptions and desire for priority and status. That is the common theme running through the Gospels and the Epistles. Get over ourselves and start one-anothering.
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Gram3 wrote:
Well, not everyone got “that” memo. Some folks think they are as right as rain and bestowing awards on the one another’s who are also right as rain. They might even claim they are doing the one-anothering with their awards 😉
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Gram3 wrote:
Like each of the Epistles had a certain “theme” relating to the conditions where it was being sent — status/money problems for Corinth, racism for Galatia, male/female supremacy problems for Ephesus. (So what’s the theme of Romans and Hebrews?) At which point, turning them into Talmud and Hadith instead of Wisdom advisories was going way too far and too inflexible.
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@ Gram3:
Thanks Gram3, that was a new thought for me about “they” could be including the false teacher.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
In the simplest of argument, you said what I say. Taking the phrase that a woman should not have authority over a man does not mean that a man should have authority over a woman.
When I set out to deeply study this a few years ago, I became only 99.9% confident that egalitarianism was biblical. I became 100% confident when my daughter asked a simple question. “Where does the Bible teach a man to lead a woman?” As Gram 3 said, the need to study the complicated complementarianism is not for our benefit, thus implying that if possible, we may save some by refuting their faulty logic.
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__
The bible is the greatest manipulation and control device.
huh?
…Under our thumb,
The women who once had us down,
Under our thumb,
The women who once pushed the church around,
It’s down to us,
The difference in the truth they tell,
Its down to us, the change has come,
Theyz under our thumb… [1]
CBMW: “Ain’t it da truth babe?”
(bump)
holy pastoral peckerswoods Wartburg, it is now (e.g. the bible) – even used ta hide pedophiles, and shields dem 501(c)3 churches officials who harbor them nasty lit’l buggers.
What will the think of next?
(sadface)
Sopy
__
[1] Rolling Stones – “Under My Thumb”
Songwriters: Mick Jagger, Keith Richards
© ABKCO Music Inc.
Disclaimer: parody adaptation, U.S. title 17 fair use; all rights reserved; copyright infringement unintended.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuRSKl3lh_8
;~)
—
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JeffT wrote:
Actress Hedy Lamarr invented spread-spectrum technology (foundation of Bluetooth and Wi-Fi) in partnership with composer George Antheil. They patented their invention in 1942 but donated the patent as their contribution to the war effort. Lamarr didn’t receive recognition for her achievement until very recently.
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Patti wrote:
I think we really need to start at the beginning of 1 Timothy. One reason I think that is the most likely interpretation/translation is that Paul begins his letter to Timothy talking about the necessity of refuting false teachers. Then he describes how he acted as a false teacher out of ignorance and unbelief. Nevertheless, God in his mercy used Paul as an illustration of his patient mercy.
That tells me what is on Paul’s mind. He wants Timothy to stay at Ephesus and deal with this problem. His words in vs. 15 sound a lot like Paul’s description of himself. He was a false teacher who taught what he falsely believed. He needed instruction. In his great mercy through the Lord Jesus, God saved Paul though he had been a blasphemer and a violent man.
The false teaching woman was violently asserting her authority over the man. Paul orders her to learn the truth calmly and under control. She is not to teach her false doctrines, and she is not to assert herself inappropriately.
Paul wasn’t sending off an email that costs nothing. Sending a letter was costly, and Paul got to his point. I think Timothy had had it with these women and was ready to call it quits, thinking it was a hopeless case. Imagine that chaos in that church. Paul says that there are no hopeless cases and that he is the model of hopeless cases redeemed by God.
Unfortunately, these guys go right to their proof texts without considering Paul’s purpose in writing to Timothy and what that might tell us about how we should view the rest of the letter. If we take the interpretation of the “complementarians” then it is a jumbled and disjointed ad hoc argument Paul makes in 2:11-15. But if we back up and read it in context, it makes a lot more sense.
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Patti wrote:
I was one of the “they” but not because of failure to examine the logic. I just failed to look at the entire question until a “complementarian” said something that I *knew* was ridiculous and not in the text. Then I started looking at the proof-texts and their interpretations of those that I had lazily never looked at before. I found Grudem’s adulteration of the text in 1 Corinthians 11, the very misleading mis-translation of Ephesians 5:22, and read RBMW for myself, shocked at the illogic and eisegesis I found there. I mean truly shocked.
I wanted and still want to know the truth, and the consequences of facing that have been costly personally. But I am not willing to participate in holding men and women in bondage to doctrines of men. That is what Jesus called nullifying his word by adding our own. That is exactly what these award winners do and approve of others doing. It is something of which they should be deeply ashamed, yet they arrogantly boast about it.
I guess that makes me a Bondage Breaker. 😉
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Gram3 wrote:
Likewise… I couldn’t and still can’t believe those who claim the title of “scholar” could actually believe their own interpretations.
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Joe2 wrote:
I’m just not seeing women as having as many options career wise or relationship wise in the 1950s as they do today.
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Joe2 wrote:
P.S. Women still face issues today. I’ve linked to this article or the other one below before.
It’s by a person born a woman but who now presents themselves as a man, and she/he discusses how she/he was not taken seriously as a female, but is taken seriously now that she/he presents herself as a man:
Male Scientist Writes of Life as Female Scientist (on The Washington Post)
And on the New Republic site:
“Why Aren’t Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Person.”
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119239/transgender-people-can-explain-why-women-dont-advance-work
“He was more carefully listened to and his authority less frequently questioned [when she began to present herself as a man]. He [the former woman] stopped being interrupted in meetings. At one conference, another scientist said, “Ben gave a great seminar today—but then his work is so much better than his sister’s.” (The scientist didn’t know Ben and Barbara were the same person.)”
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@ Nancy:
While it may be true that there are several reasons why women face difficulties in life or career, it still remains that there are some men – such as guys in CBMW or Reconstructionist Groups – who truly do work to suppress women.
I’m not a secular left wing feminist. Unlike most secular, lefty feminists, I don’t automatically assume every man is sexist, or that all sexism is intentional.
There are some men, even some who identify as Christian, who have very backwards views of women.
Woman is a temple built over a sewer. –Tertullian, “the father of Latin Christianity” (c160-225)
Woman was merely man’s helpmate, a function which pertains to her alone. She is not the image of God but as far as man is concerned, he is by himself the image of God. – Saint Augustine, Bishop of Hippo Regius (354-430)
Some sexist men today practice benevolent sexism but don’t think of themselves as being sexist. They think keeping women in limited roles is good, helpful, and protective for women and culture.
Some of the sexist men today (and ones I’ve seen in the 1980s and 90s), from the literature or blog posts I’ve read of theirs, refer often to the American 1950s (or pre- 1865 era, depending on the type of sexist we are talking about) as a mecca of gender roles.
They perceive the ’50s as being a time when “all women are Stay at Home Wives, and today’s Americans should return to that.”
Whether that was reality or not may be moot when discussing these types of guys. It’s their perception of the 1950s that takes precedence over reality and that colors a lot of their writing.
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Lydia wrote:
You know what pigeons do to statues. 🙂
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Who are Grudem or Piper? Are they trying to imitate heir perception of a church patriarch whose rings we should be kissing. The true patriarchs probably have have more humility and integrity. Also I don’t believe they would push a heretical interpretation of Scripture. Wasn’t it during Byzantine times, the Patriarchs at the time determined Arianism was heretical? I don’t get it.
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@ Gram3:
Bingo! the overarching theme is different types of false teachers. Those who deceive out of ignorance and those who deceive on purpose. For the latter, he even names names: Hy and Al. Which I find ironic since such is considered “gossip” and not following “Matthew 18” in many evangelical circles today. (wink)
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Gram3 wrote:
Bruce Ware (Owen’s father in law) uses 1 Corinthians 11 to “prove” ESS, too. Oy vey.
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Mark wrote:
Kevin Giles, in his book, shows how far they will go. Athanasius quotes were edited by Bruce Ware to try and prove he was actually affirming ESS. That is what passes for scholarship and integrity in their “academic” world.
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Daisy wrote:
I read years ago that Augustine brought a lot of baggage into his late-in-life conversion, and this was a part of that baggage. Monica’s son Auggie started out as a real horndog and ended up as a celibate monastic. In neither case did he ever interact with a woman as a person — before they were Sex Objects and afterwards they were The Forbidden Fruit (with baggage carried over from before).
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Mark wrote:
I think they really want us to kiss them on another part of their anatomy.
“And who are you, the young lord said,
That I should bow so low…”
— “Rains of Castlemere” from Game of Thrones, a song of House Lannister exterminating a lesser noble who didn’t bow low enough
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Lydia wrote:
What’s wrong, in two sentences, with ESS?
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Ken
Answering a complex doctrinal issue that has been debated since the church was founded in two sentences is impossible. We have written a couple of posts on it and so has Wade Burleson. Those posts give my answer to the issue.
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Gram3 wrote:
The phrase “Bob’s your uncle” is a fairly old UK idiom meaning something along the lines of “job done, and furthermore, it will all be simple from then on”.
E.g.: Just chop the veg, brush it with oil and stick it in the oven for 40 minutes, and Bob’s your uncle.
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@ Ken
It is not all about ESS. This is part of a larger thing that is going on in christianity today. Al Mohler has another article about his insistence that belief in the virgin conception of Jesus is the only acceptable belief because otherwise the incarnation would be impossible. This is the current post on his blog. He cites the results of two polls one of which shows that about 75% of people say they believe in the virgin birth while the other poll shows that less than 50% do. Mohler insists that without the virgin birth the assigning of deity to Christ cannot be done. He comes back to this issue again and again, and he appears to be losing the battle for the mind of christians in this issue. I doubt that people will be convinced of the virgin conception of Jesus by Mohler telling them that they have to, but some might be convinced that Mohler is correct and therefore Jesus is not god. I don’t know if Mohler wants to go in that direction or not.
The whole matter of the trinity seems to be up for grabs in some ways. ESS is only one issue in all this. I read in one of the messianic jewish websites and books that I have read an idea I had never heard about people questioning whether the Holy Spirit was an actual person or was perhaps a manifestation of the “glory” of God. This after a description that what it means to be a son of god may be understood differently as meaning God himself, but not the entirety of God. If you look for it you can find all sorts of ideas about some issues we thought a century ago were pretty well put to rest within christianity.
So, in the minds of some people who already may not believe in the incarnation as Mohler wants them to, to try to wrap their minds around the subtle difference that some folks are saying as to how subordination is not subordinationism–that probably will not happen. They will put ESS along with the virgin thing and have one more evidence that while Jesus may in some vague and unexplained way be said to be sort of divine he most certainly cannot be said to be God.
This is probably going to be a big discussion for a while. All of it. We were mistaken to think that Nicea or a succession of centuries put this to rest. People recite creeds and have no idea what it means or not, and frequently do not care. Lots of people, apparently, are simply not convinced about right many things.
I am currently reading “Simply Scripture” by NT Wright and one thing sticks in my mind. He has said that we need to be giving twenty-first century answers to first century questions. Evangelical christianity is not doing that–does not believe that is the way to go. They best consider that up to 50% or the polled professing christians in the one poll are not on board with some things.
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@ Ken:
Gee Ken, I am NOT that articulate!
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Nancy wrote:
So true! Great quote.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
After becoming a Christian he banished the mother of his child and she never got to see her son again. for some reason he could not marry her because of her low status and his sin and then he banished her which was sin. Oy vey.
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@ dee:
What I was actually getting at was ESS is often brought up in a submission/comp context, but I don’t see what is has got to do with the relationship within marriage as such. ESS is a purely trinitarian doctrine or speculation, depending on your viewpoint.
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@ Ken:
I should not have mentioned it. The christian blogosphere went around and around on this issue a few years ago. I have just always been amazed at all the stuff “scholars” find in 1 Corinthians 11 that is not there.
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Ken wrote:
Well, I would say it has nothing whatever to do with relationships within marriage. It is a device dreamed up to supposedly overcome the logical problems with saying that a woman is always subordinate to a man but is also his equal. They try to avoid the absurdity of saying that something that a woman is because she is a woman is merely a functional category.
Their evidence is a strained interpretation of 1 Corinthians 11 and head. This is why Grudem is so pathologically obsessed with kephale. Without kephale necessarily meaning “authority over” there is no case at all. The problem with their interpretation, of course, is that Grudem changes the actual text and then ignores Paul’s own explanation of his argument right there in the immediate context. That is exegetical malpractice by the standard of any conservative hermeneutic, and an academic and pastor should be ashamed of handling the words of the Holy Spirit that way. But these men have no shame, only lust for power.
So, they say that the Eternal Son (as distinct from the conditions under which he functioned while incarnated here) is functionally subordinate to the Eternal Father. They say that the entirety of the Father/Son relationship is authority. Funny, but the Jews understood that the Father/Son metaphor (and that is what it is) means that the Son is equal to the Father. They take the condition of the Son’s voluntary submission described in the Gospels and Philippians and extrapolate that back into eternity. That is pure arrogant speculation for them to go beyond what is revealed.
Aside from their inability to understand any relationship outside of a strictly rank ordered paradigm, there is the problem of mapping. The Eternally Subordinate Son supposedly maps to the Woman, the Eternally Ruling Father supposedly maps to the Man, and the Holy Spirit maps to….??? Kids? Casper?
They take one aspect of the Father/Son relationship in a fallen human patriarchal system, make that the defining distinction between these Persons of the Trinity, and map that one human patriarchal system characteristic onto the Eternal Father and the Eternal Son. Then, they take that authority relationship which has been merely asserted and map that back on to Male and Female. It is absurd to understand male/female relationships by speculating on the relationships among the Persons of the Trinity for which we have no evidence.
They have reworked Subordinationism to make it squeak by orthodoxy with rhetorical tricks. They say the Eternal Son is uncreated and Eternally Equal to the Father but also Eternally Necessarily Subordinate to the Father. Philosophically, what does it mean to assign rank to a Person of the Trinity? It is ridiculous, but it is necessary to support their idea of subordinate but equal. That is the length they will go to in order to hold on to their power and authority. It is pathetic if not blasphemous.
You might try diagramming the mapping out to see how silly this would be if it were not the Trinity we are talking about. Fallen human father/son to Eternal Father/Eternal Son to fallen human Man/Woman. As I said, it is ridiculous and absurd. Cambridge should be ashamed of Grudem’s example. One wonders how he could be granted a Ph.D. without having a better grip on reasoning and scholarship.
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Lydia wrote:
I must disagree, though I understand why you might regret mentioning it after all the discussion here and elsewhere. I think we need to mention it on a post about Piper and Grudem. These men are being acclaimed and elevated while they put down the Eternal Son, the Word of John 1.
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__
If these ‘Awards’ are to keep the status que and to keep ‘feminists’ out of calvinesta churches…
hmmm…
When are they gonna start passing out CBS (Center For Biblical Sexualhood) ‘Awards’ as well?
🙂
—
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__
“Stop, Lõõk, & Listen?”
Hey Gram ,
hmmm…
God settled the ‘theological’ ESS question when He said, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
🙂
—
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Joe2 wrote:
Excuse me. But …
First off it’s Grace Hopper. Not Hooper.
Second she was held back a lot by being a woman. A huge lot. I look at what she did and have to wonder what she could have done if not for it being the 40s-60s when she was in her prime. She might have worked and been financially rewarded at the level of a Fred Brooks, Gene Amdahl, Bill Gates, or Meg Whitman if she had lived a life in today’s world.
To sum it up she got to the level she did in spite of being a woman.
I could say this in a much longer or cruder form but will let that pass.
I met her in the mid 70s at a talk she gave and wish I had not lost the “nano second” piece of wire I got from her. She was always handing out short lengths of wire that were the distance an electrical signal could travel in a nano second.
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__
“Consult Da Book, Perhaps?”
Refer to: Sopwith
Refer to: Gram
Refer to: Ken
Supplemental :
Daniel 7:14
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
Matthew 11:27
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Ephesians 1:22
And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,
Hebrews 2:8
and put everything under their feet.” In putting everything under them, God left nothing that is not subject to them. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them.
Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows the …
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All power is given to me …
John 3:35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand.
John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, …
Ephesians 1:20 Which he worked in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and …
Philippians 2:9-11 Why God also has highly exalted him, and given him a name which is …
Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, …
Hebrews 2:8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that …
Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, …
1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels …
Revelation 1:18 I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for ever …
(bump)
‘All’ is a quite lot of stuff…
(grin)
…and ‘His’ eyes were flames of fire?
U bet!
“Cuz I’m bad, I’m Heaven, Universe and Eternity wide…” 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWttL4gs078
What?
“…and I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God… ~ Apostle John, on Patmos
Hear Him?
bet you’ze sweeeeet @zz.
—> Do what ya wanta, Jesus is tak’in care of business all da same…
(grin)
hahahahahaha
… “Lõõk, I see da heavens open’in N’ da the Son of Man
standing in the place of honor at da right hand of God…
Cheeeeeeeeeeeeeese !!!
Don’t get no bedder…
🙂
Sopy
__
“I can do all things through Him who strengthens me…”
Yeah !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFZmCytkit4
🙂
—
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
And you may also be interested in this resistant starch from “Mt Uncle”… (green banana flour)
https://www.facebook.com/GlutenFreeResistanceStarchBananaFlour
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NC Now quoted Joe2’s comment thus:
Whereupon NC Now continued:
I have to agree with NC Now, and others, on this. Grace Hopper may or may not have been personally held back through being a woman; there’s never any way of knowing for certain what would have happened if. But the fact that she succeeded more or less alone indicates that she was the exception that proved the rule. Where were all the other women?
I read an extremely interesting report not long ago on the gender-balance in the pre-school education profession in the UK. Historically, of course, this profession has long been female-dominated. The author (who was female) argued that, in an age where increasing numbers of children are growing up without a father in the home – for a variety of reasons – it would be healthy to attract more male pre-school teachers who could provide the stable male role-model that many children lack. I agree with her, btw. In interviewing a broad sample of the minority of men in the profession, she found that they were widely discriminated against. Quite apart from the tacit assumption that any man wanting to work with children must be a pervert, they reported difficulty in progressing their careers, and that they were frequently patronised and assumed to be fundamentally ignorant and incompetent at childcare by their female colleagues and supervisors.
This stick points both ways, of course. For one thing, it shows that both genders are capable of perpetuating institutionalised sexism. But on the other hand, it shows men experiencing the same gender-specific obstacles that women have always experienced in many other career-paths.
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@ Lydia:
My oops. Wrong name of book. It is “Surprised by Scripture.” The quote is on page 26. I say this just so you all will know that I have not gone completely bonkers- just partially.
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@ Gram3:
I was banished and shunned by a once popular discernment blog and branded a heretic concerning ESS. What was chilling is that I did not even bring ESS up in that context. Someone on the blog had read a discussion I was in on another blog and that was enough. They even publicly threatened to boycott blogs that allowed me to comment. It was a bizarre experience so am a bit gun shy.
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@ Gram3:
Excellent synopsis. Yes the Jewish leaders wanted to kill Him because claiming to be the Son was claiming equality with the Father to the Hebrew mindset. John 5.
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Sopwith wrote:
Amen, Sopy! Amen!
Excellent comment…thanks!
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Lydia wrote:
Whoa. That is insanse. There was a brouhaha at SGM Survivors about this. I just assumed in that case that it was due to the ESS view being the only one taught in the Piper-Grudem circles. The people I’ve talked to seem to believe this is the *only* view that has ever been taught and that it is just what orthodoxy is. These were theologically educated people who should have known better. Knight came up with this mid-1970’s, and it is frightening that a doctrine like this has been as widely accepted as it is in such a short time.
So sorry about what you have been through, especially at a “discernment” blog which should have investigated the facts before branding *you* the heretic. I’m happy to be called a gender heretic, but I’m not going to be putting down the one who bought me with his blood.
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@ Nick:
This stereotype – that men need women to teach them how to interact with/care for children – annoys me so much. It’s perpetuated by both broader culture and Christian culture. In media it often goes to the extreme of husbands/boyfriends/men actually losing babies/children because they are so incompetent and clueless. Apparently this happened in the Christian film Moms’ Night Out that came out this year, and it happened on Friends once (Joey and Chandler forgot Ross’ infant son Ben on a bus, then couldn’t remember what he was wearing when they went to the police station to pick him up).
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Addendum @ Nick:
And of course the flipside of the stereotype – that women are automatically love children and know exactly how to take care of them – is just as bad.
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Gram3 wrote:
That is how I view it, too, only stronger. Akin to calling Him a liar.
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NC Now wrote:
My dad says the same thing — that he wishes he still has his nano wire that she gave him! She’s one of his heroes. 🙂
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“Still has” = “still had.” Sorry. Apparently I mislaid my grammar this morning.
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NC Now wrote:
Crunching the numbers, those nanowires should be around 30cm long.
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Gram3 wrote:
“If I make Him decrease, then *I* Must Increase”?
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
According to Wikipedia (yeah, I know, but stick with me here…):
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@ Josh:
Indeed; 30 cm per nanosecond is the speed of light, and only electromagnetic signals (not “cathode ray” electrons as would have been found in the vacuum tubes from which early computers were made) would travel so fast.
Wikipedia is quite correct on this and, indeed, much else.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I know I could make one. I just wish I still had the real “Hopper nano second”.
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I am so glad to learn about Grace Hopper here. I had no idea.
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The CBMW and Ligon Duncan have close ties to the Presbyterian Church of Australia and to the Presbyterian Theological College here in Melbourne, Victoria. My ‘AWARD’ to them is a book I have written, called ‘Prised Open’. I promote my message on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Forums etc. it is not about the money as it has cost me a great deal in legal fees etc. to get this book published but it is about getting the message out how they treated me after I made a complaint against the leadership of a local church. An excerpt from my book says: ‘What I faced, I believe was an impassible river of discrimination, cronyism, secrecy and cover-up within the Presbyterian Church of Australia. This is my story of what I had to go through so my ‘high heels’ would leave an impression on their ‘Men Only Territory’. I hope and pray that this book will cause that impassible river to dry up so no-one else will have to fight like I did to have their voice heard’.