ARC’s Robert Morris Recommends Books By Neil Anderson Who Says He Was Bitten By Satan

"There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. They themselves are equally pleased by both errors and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight."- CS Lewis link

 More details St. Anthony plagued by demons, engraved by Martin Schongauer in the 1480s.

St. Anthony plagued by demons

Continuing on in our series regarding the beliefs within the ARC family of churches, we turn to Morris' recommended books on *freedom.* You can learn a lot about a church just by focusing on books recommended by pastors. Before we get to Morris, let me give another example. As you know, TWW often focuses on authoritarian churches. We have observed that many such churches recommend Babywise by the Ezzos. What many people do not realize is that the the American Academy of Pediatrics has issued warnings about the methods described in book.

Therefore, if a church unequivocally recommends the book, they either have church leadership that is clueless or church leadership which thinks they are smarter than health professionals. What does that tell you about the church? If the leadership deliberately overlooks the serious issues raised by pediatricians, they most likely think that they *know better* in other areas as well. That could be an early warning sign that you have an authoritarian pastor.

In our previous post about Morris, we quoted from his Freedom Ministry position paper. If you scroll to the bottom of that paper, you will find that he recommends two books by Neil Anderson:

Always ask questions. Who is Neil Anderson and what does he teach? Once again, Google comes to the rescue. I did read The Bondage Breaker over a decade ago. However, pretending that I knew very little about this book, I decided to do some surfing. 

According to his biography on Amazon

NEIL T. ANDERSON is founder and president of Freedom in Christ Ministries. He was formerly the chairman of the Practical Theology Department at Talbot School of Theology. He holds five degrees from Talbot, Pepperdine University and Arizona State University and Arizona State University 

According to Equip.Org

In many ways Neil Anderson is a respectable personality and teacher. Formerly the chairman of the Practical Theology department at Talbot School of Theology, he holds doctorates in ministry and education and served as a church pastor for 15 years prior to joining the Talbot faculty.  

Anderson has many good things to say. However, just like Peter Wagner (we will be writing about him in the near future), he began to focus a great deal on Satan and demons. In this endeavor, he has made a number of fantastical claims (just like Wagner) which have detracted from his former academic thoughtfulness. In so doing, he appears to have fallen into the trap spelled out by CS Lewis.

There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. They themselves are equally pleased by both errors and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight.

Equip.Org wrote a fascinating paper on Neil Anderson which spells out the serious concerns that I have about his books and conclusions. Do not forget that the beliefs in this book are most likely being applied at Gateway Church. All quotes are from the Equip.Org.

Christians sin only because they think they are sinners. 

Christians no longer possess a sin nature.

The believer’s correct understanding of his or her identity in Christ is the critical issue in Christian sanctification. Christians continue to sin not so much for moral reasons as perceptual: they view themselves as sinners rather than as saints.

"Christians can be and often are demonized (indwelt and controlled by demons)."

Satan must be addressed out loud because he cannot read minds.

In order to have victory over the devil, Christians must learn to address him directly, and to do so out loud (since he can’t read their minds) — even in public places.

Do not talk out loud to God because Satan can hear you and presumably use it against you.

By the same token, Christians should be careful about what they say to God out loud, since Satan is listening and could use that information against them.

When you commit a sin (especially sexual), Satan can get into your life. Repentance does not protect you.

Every time one commits certain kinds of sin (e.g., sexual), Satan may gain entrance into one’s life. A general repentance of that sin may bring forgiveness, but it will not break any Satanic stronghold.

Every sin must be renounced verbally to get rid of Satan.

In order to get Satan out of one’s life, every instance of that sin must be identified and vocally renounced.

Every sin of your your ancestors must be renounced or you could be afflicted.

The need to identify and renounce past sins to be free of them is not limited to one’s own life but extends back to one’s ancestors,

Adopted children can be particularly afflicted (note the patronizing language)

…which makes adopted children especially vulnerable to demonic strongholds. Anderson assures us, however, that “even an adopted child can become a new creation in Christ.”

There is a vast satanic conspiracy which causes mental illness  and promotes ritual abuse.

Satanic ritual abuse and multiple personality disorder are common problems caused by a vast satanic conspiracy.

     More analysis of his views on mental health

Although he acknowledges that some mental problems are chemically induced, in practice he consistently opts for a spiritual (demonic) explanation when people come to him claiming that they hear voices speaking to them. Says Anderson, “I have counseled hundreds who were hearing voices, and every one of the voices was demonic” (emphasis added).’

13 He disparages the idea that chemical imbalances can produce “personal thoughts” (i.e., seemingly external voices speaking in one’s mind) or thoughts that people are seemingly opposed to thinking

14 Moreover, he promises that within a few hours his approach can eliminate mental struggles and voices tormenting all but a few out of hundreds."

15 Lack of long-term follow-up in many cases may mask the quick return of symptoms that would indicate a source and treatment other than those that Anderson proposes.

There are breeders in our churches who are producing babies to be ritually sacrificed.

Anderson claims to have first‐hand knowledge that our churches have been infiltrated: “There are breeders out there. We’ve encountered people who are doctors and lawyers and pastors who are Satanists.”

Satan physically bit Anderson.

Satan is so enraged by Anderson’s ministry that he has launched fantastic physical attacks against him, such as biting Anderson on the hand

Satan writes messages to Anderson on his steamy bathroom mirror.

…and scrawling a message on his bathroom mirror.

You must pray certain prayers if you have been satanically cursed.

Anderson attributes real power to satanic curses and teaches they must be canceled through formulaic prayers.

Evil spirits can infest rooms in your home, clothing, etc. 

…he teaches that evil spirits often attach themselves to the spaces and furnishings of a home.

       Note: Perhaps this is where Pat Robertson got his notion that demons can affect Goodwill items? From the Huffington Post:

Robertson answered Carrie's question with a story about a girl who was troubled by a ring that had been prayed over by a witch. "She had to buy it and all hell broke loose because she finally recognized what it was," Robertson said, before claiming that demonic spirits can certainly attach themselves to objects.

Now, does this mean all second-hand clothing is a vessel of the devil? Not exactly, according to Robertson, but "it ain’t going to hurt anything to rebuke any spirits that happened to have attached themselves to those clothes.”

Parents should tell their kids that demons may be hiding in their rooms.

…parents should warn their children that the monsters they fear in their rooms at night are not only real but are demons that must be rebuked in the name of Jesus

Demons are running around and having sex with humans. (I am not joking!)

… the medieval belief in spirits that have sexual relations with humans (incubi and sucubi ) is not only valid but an experience common enough to be included in the first of his seven “steps of freedom” as a possible past sin to be renounced. 

Rebuke demons in each room in your house. 
Anderson recommends that Christians go from room to room in a newly purchased house, rebuking demons. A friend who was reading this book along with me sarcastically queried:

"Is Jesus so weak that we literally have to go from room to room to make sure we get all those demons? 

Freedom in Christ Ministries

Please note that the name of Anderson's ministry is Freedom in Christ Ministries. Note that Robert Morris calls his position paper on demons Freedom Ministry and offers Freedom Classes. Coincidence? It appears that there is a close connection between the *doctrine* of Anderson and the *doctrine* of Morris.

This should make for a fun discussion.

Lydia's Corner: Genesis 30:1-31:16 Matthew 10:1-23 Psalm 12:1-8 Proverbs 3:13-15

Comments

ARC’s Robert Morris Recommends Books By Neil Anderson Who Says He Was Bitten By Satan — 181 Comments

  1. breeder (n)
    1) someone with multiple children
    2) someone who is heterosexual, i.e. someone with a high risk of adding to the size of the human population.

  2. You must pray certain prayers if you have been satanically cursed.

    Anderson attributes real power to satanic curses and teaches they must be canceled through formulaic prayers.

    Ok, so is the text for these prayers posted online or do we have to cough up some change to buy them?

  3. srs wrote:

    (bitten by satan… woah, gotta read the post)

    It will be the new mark of the manly leader. Instead of tattoos, bite marks!

  4. So much goofy stuff, Dee, but this one really got me: “By the same token, Christians should be careful about what they say to God out loud, since Satan is listening and could use that information against them.”

    What nonsense. By that token Satan can also look over my shoulder while I’ve reading the Bible and use that against me too. As I said, nonsense; Jesus showed us how to deal with Satan taking verses out of context.

  5. Can demons metastasize? I do think the demons in the ivy out in the back 40 can now be seen in the vinca in the front, judging from its behavior recently. I need to try to cast the demons out of the vines and get them into the rose bushes before spring. This makes sense because at my house we fall into several of the categories that this man identifies as apt to be demon infested, especially since I have no idea what my ancestors were up to and probably don’t want to know.

    Meanwhile I wish somebody would make that crack about adopted children to my face. I have not made anybody wish they had not said something or other for a while now and am about to lose my formerly impressive skills at that.

  6. Somewhere there’s a village saying “so that’s where our idiot went”.

    I can’t believe the kind male bovine droppings that people allow to pass as ‘Christianity’

  7.   __

    “Peace Of Mind?”

    hmmm…

    The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

    Skreeeeeeeeeeeeeetch !

    Dear Hearts,

     —> the one who is in you is greater than ‘the one’ who is in the world.

    (bump)

    Embrace Jesus, N’ don’t lõõk back.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VPLOVJ0u94

    (Ole SlewFoot knows his time is short, so do we…)

    (grin)

    hahahahahahaha

    ATB

    Sopy
    __
    “Intermission: Boston- Peace Of Mind”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGRrOEbY3pI

    🙂

  8. JeffT wrote:

    Somewhere there’s a village saying “so that’s where our idiot went”.
    I can’t believe the kind male bovine droppings that people allow to pass as ‘Christianity’

    So True!

  9. Above all, and I repeat above all, Do Not ! let your daughters learn West African songs and dance rhythms out in the woods with a slave girl named Tituba…

  10. This guy is absolutely certifiable, though I fear his craziness is partly being crazy like a fox…

  11. Muff Potter wrote:

    Above all, and I repeat above all, Do Not ! let your daughters learn West African songs and dance rhythms out in the woods with a slave girl named Tituba…

    You guys are cracking me up.

    this stuff was so far off my radar I have a hard time believing it is actually taken seriously out there.

  12. @ doubtful:
    oh yeah – endorsements came from Everybody who was Anybody, iirc. I think they didn’t read the book before they wrote the blurbs.

  13. @ Lydia:
    you have NO idea just how many people believe it, and how deeply committed they are to those beliefs.

    I have been saying this in comments here pretty much since I began commenting on this blog… but that’s because I got burned by it, and believe the people who practice it are, unfrotunately, anything but fringe types. See the NAR, etc.

  14. doubtful wrote:

    so while he may be certifiable, he was endorsed by conservative Evangelicals with respectable followers.

    This is the reason why I think we need to write about this. I would not be surprised to see the former darling of the Calvinista set, Mark Driscoll, showing off his demon bites in the near future.

  15. I think many mega churhc pastors need to go through Neil Anderson’s bondage breakers and renounce theri efforts to create multi site churches! Next could be the efforts to get their churches traded on the NYSE. 😯

  16. I’m all to familar with this book. I know of Men’s Programs that use it and my Third Wave Church in Wisconsin used it. I’ve heard of counselors recommending Neil Anderson’s Bondage Breakers. I have gone through this material before. At the time I thought nothing of it, today I have concerns.

  17. “Satan is so enraged by Anderson’s ministry that he has launched fantastic physical attacks against him, such as biting Anderson on the hand”

    I so want to visit his church wearing a T-Shirt that says “Bite Me!”

  18. “Evil spirits can infest rooms in your home, clothing, etc.”

    At last! An explanation for those mystery stains that appear on the front of my shirts! 😉

  19. “Every sin of your your ancestors must be renounced or you could be afflicted.”

    Pretty hard to document, but going back into my family’s genealogical records, I did discover there was a Thomas in the 18th century, son of a Piper, that stole a pig. I guess that could be renounced…

  20. dee wrote:

    srs wrote:
    Ok, so is the text for these prayers posted online or do we have to cough up some change to buy them?

    Since I couldn’t confirm these prayers by a second source, I didn’t include them in the post but I believe that these are the prayers from the book.
    http://f21b431ad23dd97535d0-a19335bc32fdcd47a95bfd842075f352.r2.cf2.rackcdn.com/uploaded/b/0e705769_bondage-breaker-steps-to-freedom-in-christ-workbook.pdf

    In addition to teaching this doctrine in general, the books cited above are sold inside the Gateway bookstore called Passages on all campuses, and the staff there pushes them. The other book used is called “Strongman’s His Name, What’s His Game?” By Jerry and Carrol Robeson http://www.booksofthebible.com/p6018.html below is the description:

    “Instead of binding symptoms, we can attack the sixteen strongmen or demonic spirits mentioned by name in the Bible. God names them, they are real, and He has given us dominion over them through the name of Jesus! Here is a scriptural, balanced, uplifting approach to present-day spiritual warfare.

    Don’t just treat the “symptoms” of evil—get at the spiritual root! The Robesons reveal 16 demons mentioned by name in Scripture; how to bind them by identifying their “fruit”; and how to cast them out according to Matthew 18:18. Be freed from Satan’s shackles and reach the world for Christ!”

    That book resembles a simple workbook with basic illustrations. You look up whatever area you are seeking help in, such as “the spirit of fear” then you flip to that chapter. The book tells you the name of this demon and a little bit about him/her. Then, after calling the demon out by name, it has the actual INCANTATION that you are to stand and recite out loud, word for word, in order to purge this demon from your body, life and home. This isn’t some secret ritual for only a few select members. All 36,000 can mosey into the book store at any time and get their demon buster books and advice. So simple even scrawny armed Rob Lowe can do it.

  21. “There are breeders in our churches who are producing babies to be ritually sacrificed.

    Anderson claims to have first‐hand knowledge that our churches have been infiltrated: “There are breeders out there. We’ve encountered people who are doctors and lawyers and pastors who are Satanists.””

    All the more reason to remain a “none.” Actually, I think our churches have been infiltrated by sex offenders.

  22. I have been over on You Tube watching some of this stuff, from proponents and opponents alike. I have three impressions. (1) This is not new. I saw this once at a meeting at the old Memorial Auditorium in my home town when I was in nursing school. The guy was later convicted, I think, of claiming to raise the dead so folks were sending bodies across state lines to where he was to raise their dearly departed. (2) I saw something very similar when I was in Africa, but it was not purporting to be christian. (3) There are lots of people who kind of sort of believe things more or less similar but far less spectacular than this. I am thinking that if you add up all these people, this is bigger than I imagined.

  23. @ Shannon H.:

    Demons are also to blame for missing socks that never come out of the dryer….pretty sure the Apocryphal “Book of Hesitations” explains the demonic practice of demonic sock-suckers and how to rebuke them 🙂

  24. @ Lydia:

    When I worked at a Christian Bookstore, we would sell copies by the dozens for local Bible Studies. It was a very popular book, even in non-charismatic churches.

  25. JeffT wrote:

    I so want to visit his church wearing a T-Shirt that says “Bite Me!”

    I wanted to title this post Neil Anderson Tells Satan to “Bite Me.” I decided against it but now I wish I had.

  26. BREEDERS?? XD

    Did this guy get these ideas from watching cheesy movies on the Sci-Fi channel at 3 in the morning?

    And then the Incubi and Sucubi……so, is it ,like, possible to be married to a demon and not know it? Time to bring the Nephilim back, right?

  27. dee wrote:

    I wanted to title this post Neil Anderson Tells Satan to “Bite Me.” I decided against it but now I wish I had.

    You definitely should have! When ‘preachers’ get this looney, mock and ridicule is the only effective way to warn people off. For some reason, rational discussion doesn’t have any effect on

  28. This is so surreal, when I wake up in the morning, this will only be a dream…..seriously, can these guys get any more loonie?

  29. This was good for a laugh anyway. @Eagle – I was recommended these books by a counselor as well. I read them, and like Dee, found some good things in them, but didn’t get into the whole concept.

    My main question is – why do people who start off o.k., or at least somewhat on the right track, wander off into some sort of fanaticism? Is that just human nature?

  30. BTW, has anyone heard from Todd? Sounds like crazy things are happening in that part of the world.

  31. “Parents should tell their kids that demons may be hiding in their rooms.

    …parents should warn their children that the monsters they fear in their rooms at night are not only real but are demons that must be rebuked in the name of Jesus”

    I loooooooove me some Monster’s Inc.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPaTaEN2wxY

    Seriously, what cruel parent wants to scare their kids like that?

  32. doubtful wrote:

    @ Shannon H.:
    Demons are also to blame for missing socks that never come out of the dryer….pretty sure the Apocryphal “Book of Hesitations” explains the demonic practice of demonic sock-suckers and how to rebuke them

    Oh my goodness, yes! I have such a problem with the sock demons I was thinking of buying cheap socks instead of quality ones. Thanks for the info–I’ll have to look up that book and keep my nice socks!

  33. From the post above: “Do not forget that the beliefs in this book are most likely being applied at Gateway Church. All quotes are from the Equip.Org.”

    Speaking from lengthy experience, yes they are. Some are preached about openly, and Gateway even has certain idioms they use, like when you pray out loud to God and Satan overhears your prayer that’s called “showing Satan your TRUMP CARD”. All prayers of supplication to God must be silent lest Satan find out what you are crying out to your Father for help with. The reason they preach this is subtle, but followers are basically indoctrinated into believing that a demon is with you at all times just waiting to overhear a single plea or hint of what you fear for or need so he can specifically foil you in this regard. If your demon overhears you praying for the safety of one of you children, boom, he’s going to take out that child. To this day I never pray out loud other than to give thanks or praise. Once Gateway can get you to be thinking about your demon being with you always, it’s a much shorter trip to manipulating you into never missing a tithe, donating hundreds of hours of volunteering and giving extravagantly all the time.

    Some of the other stuff mentioned in this post you have to go to Freedom Ministries for, so not all members may be aware of it. I hope Dee does a post on what goes on, anecdotally, in that ministry. Very challenging situations, including babies being born at home to avoid a record of birth so that the baby can be later sacrificed to Satan without law enforcement detection, are some of the issues Gateway’s Freedom Ministries does deal with just like in Neil Anderson’s material.

    One of the more dangerous aspects of this Neil Anderson teachings promoted at Gateway is the concept that serious mental illness can be caused by demonic possession alone, thus potentially resulting in people not seeking the medical treatment they need to address a potentially organic cause. Perry Noble recently published a book called “Overwhelmed” where he discusses his own suicidal depression. The book encourages people with such an affliction to turn to God alone despite the hypocritical fact that Perry himself sought out an MD and chose to go on medication to prevent himself from committing suicide. Those facts were not mentioned in his book. http://www.pajamapages.com/perry-nobles-overwhelmed-book-is-dishonest-and-dangerous/ Robert Morris openly endorsed this book and even went on Perry’s podcast to discuss the topic. Just last night on Day Star, Morris’ daughter Elaine Fisher gave part of her personal testimony that included describing her four year struggle with feelings of depression, anger, rejection from her father and hitting rock bottom at age 19, including a death wish, despite daddy being a professional exorcist. These teachings that subtly encourage people to not seek professional help on major medical and psychological issues are dangerous to the afflicted person, their family, co-workers and society as a whole.

  34. Shannon H. wrote:

    “Every sin of your your ancestors must be renounced or you could be afflicted.”
    Pretty hard to document, but going back into my family’s genealogical records, I did discover there was a Thomas in the 18th century, son of a Piper, that stole a pig. I guess that could be renounced…

    Doesn’t this give them a fantastic excuse when something bad happens? Even if you did everything by the book (theirs, not the scriptures), maybe you forgot to confess an unknown sin of your ancestors. It seems like an easy way to explain why attempts to control God through magick incantations doesn’t always go as planned.

  35. I do believe there is a real satan, enemy of God, and I do believe in the presence of demonic forces.

  36. So I probably shouldn’t admit this in public because there’s always someone to judge but my husband and I are watching this show on Netflix called Salem… That’s what this reminds me of. And though we believe in the existence of Sayan and his angels, we see Salem as pure fiction. Seems to be a lot of fiction going around…

  37. There is something far more core and basic to all this and it is not God, Satan or whatever, it is far far more basic and far more powerful than that. Money.

  38. You must pray certain prayers if you have been satanically cursed.

    Anderson attributes real power to satanic curses and teaches they must be canceled through formulaic prayers.

    Evil spirits can infest rooms in your home, clothing, etc.

    …he teaches that evil spirits often attach themselves to the spaces and furnishings of a home.

    My Swiffer would like to know the proper incantation for the Demon Dustbunnies lurking like the Blob under my bed waiting to bite me on the foot. Of course, then I would need to know the proper incantation to cast out the Duster Demon from the talking Swiffer which could not ask that question unless it had been possessed. This process could be endless.

    It also raises interesting theological and/or philosophical questions WRT cat hair on furniture. Is it the cat or the cat hair on the sofa or the sofa itself that is indwelt by the Demons? In what order should the items be de-demonized? Dog people already know the answer to this, naturally.

  39. LT wrote:

    That book resembles a simple workbook with basic illustrations. You look up whatever area you are seeking help in, such as “the spirit of fear” then you flip to that chapter. The book tells you the name of this demon and a little bit about him/her. Then, after calling the demon out by name, it has the actual INCANTATION that you are to stand and recite out loud, word for word, in order to purge this demon from your body, life and home.

    Calling the demon out by name?
    Reciting the INCANTATION word-for-word?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvYRpsgbEno

    So simple even scrawny armed Rob Lowe can do it.

    I read “Rob Lowe” as “Mike Rowe” and wondered whether this could get on Dirty Jobs.

  40. JeffT wrote:

    “Satan is so enraged by Anderson’s ministry that he has launched fantastic physical attacks against him, such as biting Anderson on the hand”

    Satan gives him That Much Personal Attention?
    Doesn’t that make him So Speshul?

  41. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    “Parents should tell their kids that demons may be hiding in their rooms.

    …parents should warn their children that the monsters they fear in their rooms at night are not only real but are demons that must be rebuked in the name of Jesus”

    That gave me a flashback.
    I remember something like this happening in that not-a-cult that messed me up in the Seventies. Kid was afraid of “ghosts” and his mom preached at him that there are no ghosts, only Demons and that Satan wanted him to think there were ghosts.

  42. Shannon H. wrote:

    “Evil spirits can infest rooms in your home, clothing, etc.”
    At last! An explanation for those mystery stains that appear on the front of my shirts!

    You merely need to Shout a rebuke and they shall flee. I learned this due to being sorely oppressed and possibly possessed by a Dribbler Demon, and it was too expensive to take all my afflicted shirts to the Demon dry cleaners who always want to take a big bite from my handbag.

  43. Gram3 wrote:

    You merely need to Shout a rebuke and they shall flee. I learned this due to being sorely oppressed and possibly possessed by a Dribbler Demon, and it was too expensive to take all my afflicted shirts to the Demon dry cleaners who always want to take a big bite from my handbag.

    This is why I want a “Like” button! 😀

  44. “Every sin of your your ancestors must be renounced or you could be afflicted.”

    Hmmm….recently found out I’m descended from Oliver Cromwell. Actually, that explains at lot. 😉

    Seriously, if I bought into this (and they do try hard to sell it), there would be a ton of bad karma (I know, wrong religion…maybe) having Mr Cromwell as a progenitor.

    Seriously, though. For the kids raised under these teaching, it is some serious stuff. The fear of ‘evil’s gonna get you!’ is huge. There is no realm that they do not cede to demonic influence.

  45. @ LT:

    All prayers of supplication to God must be silent lest Satan find out what you are crying out to your Father for help with. The reason they preach this is subtle, but followers are basically indoctrinated into believing that a demon is with you at all times just waiting to overhear a single plea or hint of what you fear for or need so he can specifically foil you in this regard.

    (1) Wow, we Anglicans are in trouble because: Prayers of the People every service.

    (2) So, like, they think everyone has their own personal demon? Seriously?

    Your own personal demon
    Someone to spoil your prayers
    Someone who snares
    Your own personal demon
    Someone to foil your prayers
    Someone who’ll scare …

    (with apologies to Depeche Mode)

  46. doubtful wrote:

    Bondage Breaker is the new Hammer of the Witches.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malleus_Maleficarum
    If I remember correctly, Charles Swindol wrote a plug endorsing the Bondage Breaker, so while he may be certifiable, he was endorsed by conservative Evangelicals with respectable followers.

    It’s early here & I read that as Bondage Beaker. Of all the things our world has no need of…

  47. Robert Morris used to be an assistant pastor at a small charismatic church in Irving, Texas. It was one of those slain in the spirit, speaking in tongues type of churches. I visited there a few times back in from 1997-2000 at the request of a friend who was attending.

    I remember specifically a service back in 1999 or 2000 when Robert Morris spread his wings and left that church to start his own church. The senior pastor gave him a nice send-off. I also remember that I almost gave half of my savings one Sunday to that church so that God would “bless me.”

    Robert Morris must have caught the money bug then and decided he wanted a bigger pot for himself so he went solo. Not sure if they currently speak in tongues and gyrate on the floor at his Gateway church.

  48. I did some research on “the Bondage Breaker.” What I discovered was that the words “the bondage breaker” are actually considered to be a trademark registered to the Hawkins children’s trust. Or at least the author would have you to believe that. The problem is I went to the US patent and trademark office website, and I looked up the trademark. I discovered that the trademark has been canceled in 2002, but you would never know it from looking at 2006 version of the book over on Amazon.com. The copyright page indicates the trademark is still in Forste but the reality is that it had been canceled four years earlier. So someone is playing games or being misled by their lawyer.

  49. Copyright is still in force…and I failed to comment on the absurdity of trademarking a title which the author may be applying to God or may be applying to himself. Your guess is as good as mine.

  50. Corbin Martinez wrote:

    BREEDERS?? XD

    Did this guy get these ideas from watching cheesy movies on the Sci-Fi channel at 3 in the morning?

    Nope. He probably saw Rosemary’s Baby or The Omen when he was younger.

    (Want to get seriously creeped out? Go to YouTube and look up Rosemary’s Baby. There’s a clip of a bunch of middle-class New Yorkers chanting hail Satan. I grew up in the 1960s and it was pretty darn creepy to see a bunch of middle-aged middle-class Americans chanting hail Satan.)

  51. LT wrote:

    Very challenging situations, including babies being born at home to avoid a record of birth so that the baby can be later sacrificed to Satan without law enforcement detection, are some of the issues Gateway’s Freedom Ministries does deal with just like in Neil Anderson’s material.

    Good night! Do they really believe that?LT wrote:

    One of the more dangerous aspects of this Neil Anderson teachings promoted at Gateway is the concept that serious mental illness can be caused by demonic possession alone, thus potentially resulting in people not seeking the medical treatment they need to address a potentially organic cause. Perry Noble recently published a book called “Overwhelmed”

    We wrote about Perry’s book and the hypocrisy involved regarding mental illness. It was evident to me when reading Gateway’s website that there appears to be a tie in between mental illness and demon possession. I also read the piece by his daughter. I did find it strange that she was exorcised of her demons. Also, I noted that she and her husband have jobs on the Gateway staff. It sounds a but incestual. Do you have any idea how much anyone is making over there?

  52. brian wrote:

    Money.

    It usually is. The Deebs, when stymied, often say to one another “Follow the money.” Its amazing how quickly things clear up.

  53. dee wrote:

    LT wrote:

    Very challenging situations, including babies being born at home to avoid a record of birth so that the baby can be later sacrificed to Satan without law enforcement detection, are some of the issues Gateway’s Freedom Ministries does deal with just like in Neil Anderson’s material.

    Good night! Do they really believe that?

    In one word: YES.

    This was a Standard Belief during the Satanic Panic (thank you Mike Warnke). Clung to as ABSOLUTE TRUTH, just like SCRIPTURE.

  54. mirele wrote:

    Nope. He probably saw Rosemary’s Baby or The Omen when he was younger.

    Or read the Mad Magazine versions of them.

  55. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Satan gives him That Much Personal Attention?

    Actually you hit on something important here. Morris loves to talk about his infestation of demons. He gets a great big grin on his face when he discusses that. I included one of those videos in our original post on the matter.

    He treats this matter as a big haha. Why is that? He is getting something out of this: money and adoring crowds.

  56. THC wrote:

    I also remember that I almost gave half of my savings one Sunday to that church so that God would “bless me.”

    I am so glad that you didn’t do that.

    Over at Warren Throckmorton’s blog, someone said that they thought all preachers should have a seminary degree in order to be a good pastor. I couldn’t resist. I said that the people who supported Driscoll the most were the Neo-Cal seminary presidents and their faculty.

    I have come to the sad conclusion that seminary presidents and pastors are no less able to spot stupidity than the average, non seminary trained person with a good head on their shoulders.

  57. Gram3 wrote:

    You merely need to Shout a rebuke and they shall flee. I learned this due to being sorely oppressed and possibly possessed by a Dribbler Demon, and it was too expensive to take all my afflicted shirts to the Demon dry cleaners who always want to take a big bite from my handbag.

    Thank you for making me laugh this morning.

  58. dee wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:

    Dog people already know the answer to this, naturally.

    Dog people KNOW that cats are of Satan.

    I have a friend who insists cats are from the Fall. :o)

  59. @ Albuquerque Blue:

    There comes a time in everyone’s life that demands courage and conviction. Recognizing cats for what they are is one of those moments. Here I stand. I can do no other and all that jazz! 🙂

  60. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    dee wrote:
    LT wrote:
    Very challenging situations, including babies being born at home to avoid a record of birth so that the baby can be later sacrificed to Satan without law enforcement detection, are some of the issues Gateway’s Freedom Ministries does deal with just like in Neil Anderson’s material.
    Good night! Do they really believe that?
    In one word: YES.
    This was a Standard Belief during the Satanic Panic (thank you Mike Warnke). Clung to as ABSOLUTE TRUTH, just like SCRIPTURE.

    Very much YES. I know two mentally ill women who claim to be victims of “satanic ritual abuse.” One of them told me that she had a family member who was a breeder.

  61. mirele wrote:

    Nope. He probably saw Rosemary’s Baby or The Omen when he was younger.

    I can remember my mom saying how creepy those movies were.

    But have you seen some early morning sci-fi movies? Don’t be eating anything while watching one.

  62. Satan writes messages to Anderson on his steamy bathroom mirror.

    I wonder what kind of steamy messages they must be. Probably not suitable for general audiences, or any audiences at all.

  63. dee wrote:

    Actually you hit on something important here. Morris loves to talk about his infestation of demons. He gets a great big grin on his face when he discusses that. I included one of those videos in our original post on the matter.
    He treats this matter as a big haha. Why is that?

    It makes him Sooooo SPESHUL.
    Look at what a Mighty ManaGAWD he must be!
    Why, Satan himself thinks HE’s enough of a threat to attack HIM personally! Over and Over and Over!

  64. THC wrote:

    I remember specifically a service back in 1999 or 2000 when Robert Morris spread his wings and left that church to start his own church. The senior pastor gave him a nice send-off. I also remember that I almost gave half of my savings one Sunday to that church so that God would “bless me.”

    “I go chop you dollar!
    I make you money disappear!
    Four-one-nine just a game!
    You be the mugu,
    I be the Masta!”
    — Nigerian pop song about a con man

  65. I don’t recall hearing of Robert Morris prior to Mark Driscoll’s appearance at his church, nor was I familiar with ARC. I read a couple of Neil Anderson’s books some years ago, but they’re now stored in a box with a lot of other books.

    This morning I recalled when the late John Wimber visited a local church sometime in the early 1990’s. He spoke on healing prayer. I’m not sure how relevant this will be to the discussion at hand, but I want to share my experience at that service.

    After Wimber finished speaking he asked for a volunteer to come up for prayer. At some point he urged those of us in the congregation to pray for one another as well. I turned and saw a young woman sitting nearby who was in tears. I asked her what was wrong and she shared that she’d suffered an injury which left her in constant pain and forced her to give up a sport she loved. I offered to pray for her and, with her permission, laid my hand on the affected area. The pain disappeared. I have no human explanation. She began sobbing on my shoulder, this time crying tears of joy.

    The bottom line is that we have to be careful when discussing the gifts of the Holy Spirit, demons, etc. You’ll get no argument from me that some in the charismatic movement have been guilty of serious excesses. However, I’ve also seen plenty of evidence to conclude that despite these excesses, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still active today. Where I believe many get it wrong is when there’s an emphasis on signs and wonders at the expense of solid grounding in Scripture.

  66. Gus wrote:

    Satan writes messages to Anderson on his steamy bathroom mirror.
    I wonder what kind of steamy messages they must be. Probably not suitable for general audiences, or any audiences at all.

    On mine he writes “Yikes! Cover. It. Up.”

  67. Corbin Martinez wrote:

    Some cats are evil, some aren’t.

    I can vouch for that. Our barn cats are a lot like dogs. Very loving, come when you call them, and want to be around you. Almost to the point of being annoying. Every barn cat we have ever had gets along with the horses and the dogs, and each other. Ours even follow us on walks.

    I’ll never forget the cold January morning when I went out to the barn and saw nine barn cats huddled together, sunning themselves on a bale of hay. It looked like one big multi-colored cat with nine heads. They all turned simultaneously, watching me do my chores. That was a real treat.

  68. Gram3 wrote:

    On mine he writes “Yikes! Cover. It. Up.”

    He must be the one I hear when I step on the scale say,

    “One at a time please…”

  69. Doug wrote:

    Corbin Martinez wrote:
    Some cats are evil, some aren’t.
    I can vouch for that. Our barn cats are a lot like dogs. Very loving, come when you call them, and want to be around you. Almost to the point of being annoying. Every barn cat we have ever had gets along with the horses and the dogs, and each other. Ours even follow us on walks.
    I’ll never forget the cold January morning when I went out to the barn and saw nine barn cats huddled together, sunning themselves on a bale of hay. It looked like one big multi-colored cat with nine heads. They all turned simultaneously, watching me do my chores. That was a real treat.

    Growing up, we had an old Tom Cat, with literally no ears. He had fought every other cat in the community for domination. Might have been the most loving animal we ever had. ( maybe a Border Collie/Aussie Shep mix?) After a night of fighting he would show up for us to doctor his wounds and I know it was painful for us to touch, but he never flinched. The kids in the family could do anything to him and he’d just enjoy the heck out of it….but come night, he was the Joe Louis of the cat world. ( All kittens eventually in the community looked like him.)

  70. singleman wrote:

    The bottom line is that we have to be careful when discussing the gifts of the Holy Spirit, demons, etc

    singleman wrote:

    I’ve also seen plenty of evidence to conclude that despite these excesses, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still active today.

    Let me pushback on this a bit. Oncce again, let me reiterate-I am a partial cessationist which means I am also a partial believer in the gifts.

    A few years ago, Benny Hinn was asked to prove just one instance of healing from his so called ministry. he could not. Not one. Well, he did try one. He claimed that a woman was found tour free after coming to his event. However, he failed to mention the fact that she had surgery to remove said tumor.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2009/12/31/hinn-does-not-heal-–-liar-liar-pants-on-fire/

    Do you remember that Jesus told the healed lepers to go to the priests to confirm that they were healed? They would testify to the miracle. Also, many of Jesus miracles were immediately confirmed such as a man born blind who could suddenly see. No problems there.

    You did not know that woman’s medical history. Her sudden freedom from pain may have been a miracle or it may have been mind over matter. The only way to confirm exactly what happened is to see the documented medical records. As a nurse, I know you cannot accept things on a claim. People can suddenly feel better and then relapse.

    In fact, I believe it is those who claim a miracle who must be cautious. Proof should be offered and that is exactly what Jesus did. We need to do the same.

    Also, it is interesting that we do not have medical evidence of confirmed blind individuals who have infirmities like optic nerve severance who can see after prayer. The same goes for dead being raised to life or people growing limbs which have been amputated.

    Often miracles are declared for pain which is hard to externally asses or prove as opposed to real miracles like someone who was completely paralyzed due to the severance of the spine suddenly being able to walk.

    Rumors and external observations do not cut it here. Real miracles should have medical evidence. And that is why I think we all must be careful when declaring miracle healings. Our refusal to do it properly earns us derision by those outside looking in and rightfully so.

  71. @ Doug:

    My cat’s name is Tommy. I found him shivering and soaked in the rain underneath a shopping cart 16 years ago. He’s my friend.

  72. @ dee:

    Strange things happen. Explanations may or may not follow. I have mentioned before the two cases in which a strange thing happened and in each of which the attending physician thought that what happened might have been in response to prayer. My informants in each case were the attending physicians. I listened, said things like my word and look at that. I believe that the strange things happened because in one case I saw the before and after films. I don’t know the explanation, however, because unexpected things for better or worse do happen with and without prayer. None of this was show biz-just sick people.

    However, if prayer has so much as a placebo effect I would think it would be worth doing. But then, I thought that praying for the sick was pretty routine in christianity. It is praying for healing, not trying to put on a road show. That, I think, is where the problem lies sometimes. And of course the problem of “I prayed and did not get what I asked for” (Paul) and then that has to be dealt with. It is complicated.

  73. @ Doug:
    My uncle has a cat that he treats like a dog. He wrestles with him and rubs his tummy. And the cat loves it. Big cat, too. About the size of a medium/small dog.

  74. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    dee wrote:

    Actually you hit on something important here. Morris loves to talk about his infestation of demons. He gets a great big grin on his face when he discusses that. I included one of those videos in our original post on the matter.
    He treats this matter as a big haha. Why is that?

    It makes him Sooooo SPESHUL.
    Look at what a Mighty ManaGAWD he must be!
    Why, Satan himself thinks HE’s enough of a threat to attack HIM personally! Over and Over and Over!

    Dee, Massmind, I just remembered what this reminds me of. In local fandom, there used to be this one occult fanboy (the guy for whom the expression MoMM — “Master of Mighty Magick” — was first coined) who said much the same thing. Except in his case it was Morgan LeFay instead of Satan and Merlin instead of God. I remember claiming he’d killed Morgan LeFay on the Astral Plane many times but she kept coming back.

    (As for the MoMM’s Ascended Astral Patrons, besides Merlin he’d gone through Bast, Odin, and a “Lord Theos of Atlantis” at the time I lost all contact with him; every one praised him for his Magickal Talent and Apprenticeship, promising him When (not if) the Magick Returns he would ascend to godhood. Didn’t mention if this message was scrawled on his bathroom mirror or not. As you’ve probably guessed by now, NOBODY took this guy seriously at all. Except as a perennial nuisance. MoMM in his own mind, seriously delusional to everyone else.)

  75. @ Nancy:

    Please don’t get me wrong, Nancy. Remember, I have a daughter who survived a huge malignant brain tumor and now works as a nurse in Duke’s STICU. Her survival was unexpected. But, did God directly heal her? I don’t know. Surely I prayed 1,000 times a day.

    I talked with a number of pastors and theologians about this. All cautioned me to be careful in declaring this a miracle unless I have proof of the supernatural. I think the answer to that question will not happen until heaven. Was it a direct intervention or was it God carrying out His purpose through the surgeon who studied and perfected his skill-a skill given to him by God? I

    I tend to believe that the purpose of the miracles during the time of Jesus established that He was who said He was. The miracles of the Apostles in the immediate aftermath of the Ascension served to establish that the new church was the great new covenant. When I read the Epistles, I note that Paul rarely pointed to the healing miracles of Jesus and instead emphasized the Cross and Resurrection.

    Perhaps that was The Miracle-the only one would ever need. Does that mean that God does not intervene today? Of course not-He is the Master of His kingdom. The lives of the Apostles serve as reminder that all but one died as martyrs.

    What I am saying is that I am cautious in declaring healing miracles. If we get it wrong, then our witness to the watching world is tainted. Benny Hinn and others serve as stark reminders of this. Only Christians seem to believe them and for no good reason.

  76. dee wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    I am so glad you hang around here, HUG. You take me in directions I could never go in without you!

    It’s no fun being a weirdness magnet.

  77. dee wrote:

    Do you remember that Jesus told the healed lepers to go to the priests to confirm that they were healed? They would testify to the miracle.

    This is why at Lourdes there’s a medical clinic nearby. So claims of miracle healings (which Lourdes has a reputation for) can be documented ASAP by medical examination.

  78. singleman wrote:

    I’ve also seen plenty of evidence to conclude that despite these excesses, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still active today.

    Singleman, I believe in the almighty power of the Holy Spirit as do most Christians. I also believe Satan is very real. The reason that Robert Morris is being written about is due to his raking in over a hundred million dollars a year by making his flock believe that their failure to fully tithe will rain curses down upon them and their children. It’s about him abusing his spiritual authority to ensure that he and his family and friends become multi-millionaires at the expense of trusting, faithful Christians, many of whom could use a miracle. This man exports his tithing curse and demonology doctrine all over the WORLD. He claims to broadcast these doctrines to over 100 million people in over 200 countries. Most of these listeners live hand to mouth. By making people believe that demons will possess them, (and if it happened to Paul it could surely happen to them) then HE can cast out their demons but only so long as they continue to give 10% of their gross. In doing this he is blaspheming God and hurting the very people he is supposed to be feeding and protecting. This isn’t just about 36,000 well-off Texans being duped. This man has big plans and they are not pure. I thank God that someone is finally shining light on this, so others might avoid enslavement to his greed.

    Here is a link to a great documentary called “Miracles for Sale” where an English documentarian transforms an agnostic scuba diving instructor into a faith healer by teaching him all the tricks of the trade, thus exposing what the tricks are. They successfully do this right in Robert Morris’ own back yard (DFW). This is the type of behavior being exposed, not what you legitimately witnessed when no cash was being exchanged. Please consider viewing:
    http://youtu.be/bouAp1pGBwk

  79. dee wrote:

    I talked with a number of pastors and theologians about this. All cautioned me to be careful in declaring this a miracle unless I have proof of the supernatural

    This is an interesting topic and I would like to explore it a bit if you don’t mind. It sounds to me like the pastors and theologians you talked to, on the one hand, and the Benny Hinn types on the other hand are singing off the same page in the hymn book. If it is of God it will be spectacular in some way-proving thereby it is supernatural. So the guys say they did not see spectacular so better be careful. And Hinn says, you people looking for the spectacular–watch this.

    I don’t think that there is proof of the supernatural at all. I don’t think we have proof even that there is a god. In the interim there is believing- however one walks that road experientially.

    And as to this matter: “I tend to believe that the purpose of the miracles during the time of Jesus established that He was who said He was.” That is alright as far as it goes, but we are told also that he looked on the crowds and had compassion on them. It was not all merely a demonstration of his ability to do the “mighty works” but also, at minimum, compassion.

    I personally find it difficult to think that God would refuse to do something today unless He could turn it into some kind of show or demonstration or such. Not saying that you said that, but some do say that. Neither am I saying that if people pray then God will heal, as if we controlled God. Obviously not. I prayed for someone very close to me and they died. Been there. We do not control God. Not saying that. I just don’t think that watching for signs and wonders or expecting the spectacular is a good idea, whether we do in in order to believe something or to disbelieve something.

  80. dee wrote:

    What I am saying is that I am cautious in declaring healing miracles

    I think that is wise. There seems to be an attitude abroad, amongst charismatic evangelicals in particular but not just them, that if God does heal someone directly, and this is obvious to those who know the person or confirmed by a suitably qualified doctor, they have to go around telling everyone. I’m not sure that is necessary, in fact maybe we should be more reticient about saying publically what God has done for us more privately.

    ‘If they don’t believe Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe if someone should rise from the dead’, and this will not be changed by us feeling we have ‘show’ them God is real everytime he answers a prayer or intervenes in an unmistakeable way in our lives, as though they can never believe unless we do.

    Jesus actually sometimes told those he healed not to spread it around. I’m sure sometimes it is right to testify of what God has done, but discretion is necessary in doing so.

  81. THC wrote:

    Robert Morris used to be an assistant pastor at a small charismatic church in Irving, Texas. It was one of those slain in the spirit, speaking in tongues type of churches. I visited there a few times back in from 1997-2000 at the request of a friend who was attending.
    I remember specifically a service back in 1999 or 2000 when Robert Morris spread his wings and left that church to start his own church. The senior pastor gave him a nice send-off. I also remember that I almost gave half of my savings one Sunday to that church so that God would “bless me.”
    Robert Morris must have caught the money bug then and decided he wanted a bigger pot for himself so he went solo. Not sure if they currently speak in tongues and gyrate on the floor at his Gateway church.

    THC, could you please provide any other specifics. Robert Morris is quite vague about his prior work experience. He has previously preached that after being passed over for a promotion he felt he deserved at his then employer Shady Grove Church in Grand Prairie, he decided to go plant Gateway in Southlake, TX (in a far wealthier zip code). Morris states that as a favor to his then boss, Sr Pastor Olen Griffing (who was later made an Apostolic Elder at GW) he then took a non-specified gap period (1-3 years) in the late 90’s where he claims to have worked for Jimmy Evans who was the head pastor at Trinity Fellowship in Amarillo, TX. Jimmy Evans is GW’s Lead Apostolic Elder who funded/planted GW which set up shop in Spring 2000.

    Morris stated quite specifically that he needed to take this gap time off so as not to cannibalize any members from Grand Prairie, but these churches are 30 miles apart with many of these miles under constant construction and thus seemed like a dubious excuse. This gap time fell right during the period of time you saw him at the church in Irving. Irving is right next to Grand Prairie so that would make both the Jimmy Evans/Trinity Fellowship story suspect as well as his honoring a non-compete agreement since Irving is far closer to GP than Southlake is.

    Any insights you have in helping to fill out Morris’ timeline would be greatly appreciated.

  82. LT wrote:

    Here is a link to a great documentary called “Miracles for Sale” where an English documentarian transforms an agnostic scuba diving instructor into a faith healer by teaching him all the tricks of the trade, thus exposing what the tricks are.

    Oh wow! I’m watching this documentary and can’t believe how easily the transition from a scuba diving instructor to a faith healer is! Thanks for this link, TL! Amazing!

  83. dee wrote:

    LT wrote:

    Good night! Do they really believe that? (human sacrifice) LT wrote:

    Yes. People claiming to have been severely abused in Satanic and Luciferian cults throughout DFW seek help at GW’s Freedom Ministries. GW also says that the heads of these cults are doctors, lawyers, politicians and high powered business men, many of whom people have heard of. Apparently they rape young girls then sacrifice the babies whose births are not recorded. It’s really savage stuff. One of my concerns is that GW does not employ licensed therapists, for the most part. These abuse victims are being “treated” by lay people.

    @ Dee: We wrote about Perry’s book and the hypocrisy involved regarding mental illness. It was evident to me when reading Gateway’s website that there appears to be a tie in between mental illness and demon possession. I also read the piece by his daughter. I did find it strange that she was exorcised of her demons. Also, I noted that she and her husband have jobs on the Gateway staff. It sounds a but incestual. Do you have any idea how much anyone is making over there?

    Salaries are a closely guarded secret as everyone in accounting is subject to serious non-disclosure and non-disparaging agreements, which are strictly enforced, so it would be difficult to get that specific information. However, based on published data and verbal disclosures it appears that GW’s average pay package for GW employees is $96,000 per employee and most of their employees are lower level administrative workers and interns. Therefore, the people at the top have to be making very large amounts to drive the average up to $96,000 per employee in a 600 employee company. Having over 200 pastors who make over 6 figures is a strong motivation for them to support whatever heresy is being employed and exported in order to drive up revenue. The pay at GW is significantly over market value, especially as many of these people have no formal education to support their 6 figure incomes outside of the GW cocoon.

    I can say that Ethan, who has no relevant job experience, was twice promoted this fall in a span of 3 weeks – from Ministry Coordinator, to Associate Pastor, to full Pastor after Elaine revealed she was pregnant again. GW had to terminate the existing pastor, who had a family of 6 to support to accommodate this. Since removing that preacher, GW has also had to bring in regular guest speakers to preach in place of Ethan because attendance went down significantly. All of this at tithers’ expense. As an accounting major with no relevant pastoral experience, Ethan is simply not good at this. His voice quivers and his hands tremble the entire time he speaks. It’s painful to watch.

    Full pastors, like Ethan now is, make quite a bit. Elaine is a Ministry Coordinator who shows up to the Young Adults Service once a week, so she gets her MC salary for a whopping 4 hours of “work” a week (work meaning sitting through an awesome concert, then watching hubby or guest pastor speak followed by visiting with people in her clique for an hour afterwards). Elaine also receives an honorarium for preaching 40 minutes twice a year at the two session Pink Impact Women’s Conference held in the spring. The other speakers reportedly receive between $10,000-$20,000 per session for that gig, so it is reasonable to assume that Elaine also gets to earn $238 per minute at least twice a year. Add to that a GW credit card to pay for many if not most of your meals, Starbucks, supplies and books, plus GW funding any “mission” trips you may take that year, including those “third world countries” in Australia and Europe. Fortunately for the Morris-Fishers, they now get to drop that dreadful FICA tax due to Ethan’s impromptu onstage “ordination” this fall. Hope that helps.

  84. LT wrote:

    The pay at GW is significantly over market value, especially as many of these people have no formal education to support their 6 figure incomes outside of the GW cocoon.

    I think there needs to be a real exorcism performed here, that of the spirit of Mammon. Sadly, it can only be performed by the members of GW, by withholding said filthy lucre. They are, however, most unlikely to do it.

  85. Gus wrote:

    LT wrote:
    The pay at GW is significantly over market value, especially as many of these people have no formal education to support their 6 figure incomes outside of the GW cocoon.
    I think there needs to be a real exorcism performed here, that of the spirit of Mammon. Sadly, it can only be performed by the members of GW, by withholding said filthy lucre. They are, however, most unlikely to do it.

    The worst part is that their entire Blessed Life tithe teaching states that tithing the full 10% to Gateway is the ONLY way that the members can drive out the Spirit of Mammon. Morris states that you are “stealing from God” if you fail to transfer the full 10% of your gross pay to their 501(c)3. He also states that “when you steal from God you are the most like Satan, but when you give to him (Gateway) you are the most like God”. Do you want to be like Satan or God?! Well?! That is an actual quote. Giving them your money is the only way to rid yourself of this. The irony is nearly mind-blowing. Gimme,gimmme, gimme, then YOU won’t be overtaken with greed.

  86. LT wrote:

    dee wrote:

    FYI Dee, The average Gateway pay package of $96,000 per employee was based on 2013 posted figures. Gateway’s attendance has grown on a weighted average basis about 25% since then. With new numbers coming out shortly, we may find the average pay easily exceeding a hundred grand per church employee. Gateway also has three massive giving campaigns coming up between now and February 22, 2015. I personally know that some of the people funding this have to store up loose change in a jar for special treats. I don’t believe they understand what the numbers really are. Thanks for asking about them.

  87. senecagriggs yahoo wrote:

    I do believe there is a real satan, enemy of God, and I do believe in the presence of demonic forces.

    I do also.

    I do have one question: What does his bite mark look like?

  88. LT wrote:

    From the post above: “Do not forget that the beliefs in this book are most likely being applied at Gateway Church. All quotes are from the Equip.Org.”
    Speaaking from lengthy experience, yes they are. Some are preached about openly, and Gateway even has certain idioms they use, like when you pray out loud to God and Satan overhears your prayer that’s called “showing Satan your TRUMP CARD”. All prayers of supplication to God must be silent lest Satan find out what you are crying out to your Father for help with. The reason they preach this is subtle, but followers are basically indoctrinated into believing that a demon is with you at all times just waiting to overhear a single plea or hint of what you fear for or need so he can specifically foil you in this regard. If your demon overhears you praying for the safety of one of you children, boom, he’s going to take out that child. To this day I never pray out loud other than to give thanks or praise

    I remember being taught this when I was charismatic. In fact the pastor and elders never told where the pastor was at because they claimed that satan would set up roadblocks or break down the pastor’s car. Funny how they preached that we do not have a spirit of fear but act in ways that manifest fear.

  89. doubtful wrote:

    @ Shannon H.:
    Demons are also to blame for missing socks that never come out of the dryer….pretty sure the Apocryphal “Book of Hesitations” explains the demonic practice of demonic sock-suckers and how to rebuke them

    When I was a little kid feigning school, they could be blamed for my test paper disappearing. They can be blamed for anything to feign personal responsibility.

  90. Shannon H. wrote:

    At last! An explanation for those mystery stains that appear on the front of my shirts!

    I believe you. In our home the demons force food off my husband’s fork and onto his shirt right after I’ve finished the laundry for the week. They do the same with his coffee. And those stinking buggers always make it look like it was him!

  91. @ dee:
    First of all, I’m grateful for your daughter’s recovery, however it came about.

    I understand your wanting to be cautious. In the instance I described, I didn’t know the young woman before I prayed with her nor have I seen her since, so I can’t quantify anything other than what happened that evening.

    My church holds monthly healing prayer services and has hosted conferences on the subject. Those who’ve spoken at these services and conferences acknowledge not everyone receives a miraculous cure. However, I’ve heard and read testimonies from people who’ve received prayer that they received healing, including some who went to the doctor and left them astounded.

    I realize this is controversial territory and we have to be very careful in navigating these waters. Someone like Benny Hinn wouldn’t be welcome at my church because there are way too many questions concerning his ministry and his claims.

  92. I’ll share an instance from my own life concerning healing prayer. About six or seven years ago I suffered a partial tear of my Achilles tendon. Walking became difficult and I had to give up ballroom dancing for a long time. I went for healing prayer. Did I receive a miraculous cure? In my instance, no; it took about two years for the injury to fully heal. However, I can testify the Lord used that injury to get my attention concerning other areas of my life He wanted to work on, and that process is still ongoing.

  93. This stuff is so 80s and early-90s. Bondage Breaker? I remember that book eons ago. I thought this entire fad had died with the disappearance of laughing revivals.

    It’s odd, but I can more easily understand the mindset of the neo-Cal set than I can of followers of this stuff.

  94. I was right. This book was initially published in 1990.

    Zombie book. What’s next? A resurrection of The Prayer of Jabez?

  95. Nancy wrote:

    Meanwhile I wish somebody would make that crack about adopted children to my face. I have not made anybody wish they had not said something or other for a while now and am about to lose my formerly impressive skills at that.

    Speaking as an adopted child, I share your sentiments. (Of course, this may be because I am, apparently, infested myslef).

  96. @ E.G.:
    It gained in popularity through the late 90s-early 00s. It’s not as faddish as you think, though i wish it was.

  97. LT wrote:

    Gimme,gimmme, gimme, then YOU won’t be overtaken with greed.

    I’ll take your money so you won’t be tempted to sin?

    RM & GW bearing our burden, our financial sin?

    That’s a new concept of christianity for me.

  98. srs wrote:

    Searching Google images with “Beaker bondage” is….. not helpful (not unlike this comment)

    Haaa, I could have predicted that one. Once, for some work in a regulation area, we had to find a picture of some handcuffs. So my boss called us in all while he used google images to search. Smart man, as he had lots of witnesses that he was on the ‘straight and narrow’ !

  99. LT wrote:

    Blessed Life tithe teaching

    I run into people who say “have a blessed day” pronounced blest, not bless-ed. Are these two things related to each other? What and whence is this “blest day” greeting?

  100. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Hey. I didn’t understand the end of 2001 A Space Odyssey until I read the Mad Magazine version. Or at least the usual gang of _diots had an understanding that made sense. 🙂

  101. Haitch wrote:

    srs wrote:
    Searching Google images with “Beaker bondage” is….. not helpful (not unlike this comment)
    Haaa, I could have predicted that one. Once, for some work in a regulation area, we had to find a picture of some handcuffs. So my boss called us in all while he used google images to search. Smart man, as he had lots of witnesses that he was on the ‘straight and narrow’ !

    Oh dear oh dear oh dear. I am now hideously tempted to google Bondage Beaker. How long can I hold out?

  102. “I got bit by a demon!”
    “I had sex with a demon!”
    “Yeah, I stabbed a man in the heart. There were horses, and a man on fire, and I killed a guy with a trident!”

  103. This is a note to new readers who show up when they perceive a slight on their chosen ministry.

    You are welcome to insult the Deebs to a point. If you continue with a string of name calling after we have shown you that we understand you dislike us, we will warn you to stop and put further comments into moderation.

    Also, the smartest thing a readers should do when they perceive a slight is to challenge us by listing the positives of the ministry/celebrity leader. In other words, do what we do and link to statements that make your case.

    Mark Driscoll cheapened discussion over the last decade, acting like a playground bully. He was the king of insults. We are concerned that he birthed a whole generation of like minded pastors and followers who will continue on this negative legacy. His DNA lives on.

  104. dee wrote:

    Mark Driscoll cheapened discussion over the last decade, acting like a playground bully. He was the king of insults. We are concerned that he birthed a whole generation of like minded pastors and followers who will continue on this negative legacy.

    “I shall call him — MINI-MARK! And MINI-MARK! And MINI-MARK! …”

  105. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    “I got bit by a demon!”
    “I had sex with a demon!”
    “Yeah, I stabbed a man in the heart. There were horses, and a man on fire, and I killed a guy with a trident!”

    I want to get in touch with your Dungeonmaster.

  106. LT wrote:

    He also states that “when you steal from God you are the most like Satan, but when you give to him (Gateway) you are the most like God”. Do you want to be like Satan or God?! Well?! That is an actual quote. Giving them your money is the only way to rid yourself of this.

    “When coin in Gateway’s coffer rings,
    Then your soul to Heaven springs.”

  107. dee wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    I am so glad you hang around here, HUG. You take me in directions I could never go in without you!

    “I try to make everyone’s day a bit more surreal.”
    — Calvin & Hobbes

  108. E.G. wrote:

    I was right. This book was initially published in 1990.
    Zombie book. What’s next? A resurrection of The Prayer of Jabez?

    How about the resurrection of John G Lake? Anyone familiar?
    Around 1993 our pastor gave us a John G Lake book and asked our opinion. Lake was known for healing around 100,000 people in early-twentieth-century Spokane (fully half the population). We were alarmed over the occult practices, including his leaving energy handprints on victims er patients without having touched them, and teleporting himself from Africa to England and back during a meeting. We went to the local library and found some old newspaper accounts. My favorite account will follow in a minute. So we advised the pastor NOT to promote Mr Lake, he listened, and that was the end of the Lake revival in our church. But in ’95, Kenneth Copenhagen (or similar) republished a Lake book, and he was resurrection-bound. In ’97 Rick Joyner made some prophecy about a Great Lake revival to come to the Pacific NW. A couple years later our house-church leaders had discovered Lake and were wanting to start a healing room. She got cancer and refused all medical treatment. We moved, and I did not wish to keep in touch for the inevitable tragic outcome. So here’s my favorite newspaper account, from The Spokane Press, June 7th, 1916:
    “Teresa Luther, a pretty little girl…was next in line. She was stone deaf – so they said. After a few minutes of violent praying the child cried, ‘I can hear – I can hear’. ‘Praise God, praise God’ chanted the onlookers. ‘Yes – I can hear wonderfully now’, the pretty little girl told the reporter.
    She was still with her grandmother. ‘So your granddaughter is healed?’ asked the reporter. ‘What?’, said the grandmother. ‘Why she’s never been deaf. She can’t hear any better now than she ever could. We went for a walk tonight and the child dragged me in here. Before I knew it she was up on the platform. She’s never been deaf.’.”

  109. 2 comments not approved.

    Repeat:

    This is a note to new readers who show up when they perceive a slight on their chosen ministry.
    You are welcome to insult the Deebs to a point. If you continue with a string of name calling after we have shown you that we understand you dislike us, we will warn you to stop and put further comments into moderation.

    Also, the smartest thing a readers should do when they perceive a slight is to challenge us by listing the positives of the ministry/celebrity leader. In other words, do what we do and link to statements that make your case.

    Mark Driscoll cheapened discussion over the last decade, acting like a playground bully. He was the king of insults. We are concerned that he birthed a whole generation of like minded pastors and followers who will continue on this negative legacy. His DNA lives on.

  110. dee wrote:

    Mark Driscoll cheapened discussion over the last decade, acting like a playground bully. He was the king of insults. We are concerned that he birthed a whole generation of like minded pastors and followers who will continue on this negative legacy. His DNA lives on.

    True That! Anyone who has experienced an attempted takeover at their church, or one of his (& Piper, Sproul, Washer, et al.) minions visit their blog knows this first hand.

    Will they ever learn? Doubtful, imo.

  111. @ Doug:

    That is why TWW exists. We hope to help people find out how to assess their churches and pastors, find out that they are not alone when they encounter a negative situation, teach them how to extricate themselves, and most of all, help them to ask the right questions.

    We also expose problems in the church to help others avoid similar situations. We also highlight churches which do not deal with issues of child sex abuse and domestic violence.

    We want people to know that they have a right to ask precisely how their money is being spent and how much the people working in the church earn as salaries.

    There are far too many churches out there who do not want people asking questions. They jump up and down, asking us to look at them. Well, we take them up on the offer.

    One thing we do know, when someone gets really, really upset and starts name calling for wont of a better response, we know that we have struck a nerve. And when we know we have struck a nerve, it gets us really, really curious as to exactly what is going on.

    Our Huxley reader reminds us of people who were defending Mark Driscoll 5 years ago. We got called all sorts of names. It is interesting. In general, we have seen this sort of aggressive tactic in our comments primarily with those who have been affiliated with Driscoll, Acts 29 and some of the Fight churches out there.

    At least here everybody gets a say before they get moderated. I try to make sure I comment when we do not accept comments. As you can see, that is a rare occurrence.

  112. dee wrote:

    They jump up and down, asking us to look at them. Well, we take them up on the offer.

    Love this!

  113. dee wrote:

    We hope to help people find out how to assess their churches and pastors

    You do a fine job at that! It is a HUGE help to know that no, you are not the crazy one. I appreciate you guys.

  114. Mark wrote:

    I do have one question: What does his [satan’s] bite mark look like?

    Mark, the first thing to understand is that “bite mark” is a prophetic allegory – satan doesn’t literally bite you. He sends an evil cat to leave cleverly-camouflaged cat-excrement on one of your flower-beds. Believe me, I know.

  115. dee wrote:

    Mark Driscoll cheapened discussion over the last decade, acting like a playground bully. He was the king of insults. We are concerned that he birthed a whole generation of like minded pastors and followers who will continue on this negative legacy. His DNA lives on.

    In Mini-Marky after Mini-Marky, mouths watering for the Iron Throne of MY multi-franchise Mega with MY face on all the campus Telescreens.

    “For you cross Heaven and Earth to make one convert, and when you do you make him twice the child of Hell as yourself!”

  116. Dee, on the main page that links to this post you asked “Have you ever met anyone who was bitten by Satan?”

    So what else would that remind me of but Walter Brennan, Lauren Bacall and Humphrey Bogart in To Have and Have Not: Bit by a dead bee“.

  117. @ dee:

    One of my favorite movies, Dee. Not favorite like “I really like that movie”. Favorite like “This is in my top 20. Maybe top 10.”

  118. Tim wrote:

    So what else would that remind me of but Walter Brennan, Lauren Bacall and Humphrey Bogart in To Have and Have Not:

    One of my favorites! I use that line from time to time (“Have you ever been bit by a dead bee?” and no one knows what I’m talking about. Oh well.

  119. roebuck wrote:

    One of my favorites! I use that line from time to time (“Have you ever been bit by a dead bee?” and no one knows what I’m talking about. Oh well.

    Not surprising, since bees don’t have teeth.

  120. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Not surprising, since bees don’t have teeth.

    They do, however, have rather effective mandibles, which get the job done quite nicely. OTOH, it might be more to the point to ask ‘have you ever been stung by a dead bee?’ To which I would have to answer, no. Come to that, I ain’t never been bit by one, neither 😉

  121. LT wrote:

    Here is a link to a great documentary called “Miracles for Sale” where an English documentarian transforms an agnostic scuba diving instructor into a faith healer by teaching him all the tricks of the trade, thus exposing what the tricks are. They successfully do this right in Robert Morris’ own back yard (DFW). This is the type of behavior being exposed, not what you legitimately witnessed when no cash was being exchanged. Please consider viewing:
    http://youtu.be/bouAp1pGBwk

    LT, the guy who made that documentary is Derren Brown, a fantastic illusionist who has done a lot of really mind-blowing things. He’s an outspoken atheist and also did a show where he convinced a few leaders of different religions that he was a prophet, and converted a room full of avowed atheists into believers in God (when he told them that he was actually an atheist himself, they turned back).

    I highly recommend his work. I particularly enjoyed his simulated zombie apocalypse.

  122. This post caught my eye because I once read a book by a woman who claimed to have suffered from DID (the modern name of Multiple Personality Disorder), and she claimed that Freedom in Christ ministries had healed her. She claimed to be a survivor of harrowing Satanic Ritual Abuse.

    I wrote a review of that book on Amazon UK that included this:

    “…I am concerned that some of her experiences may have been created through unintentional manipulation by third parties who have helped her recover (her psychologist Dr Christopher Rosik and Freedom in Christ ministries)”

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Am-I-Good-Girl-Yet-ebook/product-reviews/B009SJLCJC/ref=sr_1_1_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

    Mine is the only review that gives less than 5 stars.

    I do wonder if it was a terrible thing for me to have done, to question an abuse victim’s experience. Perhaps I shouldn’t have written it; after all, DID is a very complex illness. However, I also think that if Freedom in Christ is manipulating vulnerable people into believing awful things that didn’t happen, and attributing those things to satanic activity, then someone ought to say something.

  123. …I have to chime in one more time to mention how ironic it is that this ministry is called ‘Freedom in Christ’. Christian or not, if I believed what Anderson believes, I’d be scared to leave the house.

  124. Oh boy. This crud is huge in the Charismatic/Pentecostal circles around the world. My mom subscribes to this stuff. She tried burning some clothes of mine because I let a Muslim classmate borrow them, I have had a childhood pet (a turtle) thrown away because it represented sloth, nice cushions with Egyptian hieroglyphics scrawled over with crayon because they transmitted demons, and other fun stuff. Imagine her glee when she discovered I practiced yoga. I was quick to point out that surely poses that aid my strength and flexibility are not assigned to any demons in particular, and if so, she should cite chapter and verse.

  125. @ Sophie:

    I read your book review on the link you provided and it was excellently thought out with sufficient detail presented to be convincing. Good job all around, in my opinion.

  126. androidninja wrote:

    …nice cushions with Egyptian hieroglyphics scrawled over with crayon because they transmitted demons, and other fun stuff. Imagine her glee when she discovered I practiced yoga. I was quick to point out that surely poses that aid my strength and flexibility are not assigned to any demons in particular, and if so, she should cite chapter and verse.

    I went to a church that taught similar things, and it was a big point of confusion for me.

    My Japanese friend had made me a ‘hanko’, which is a Japanese stamp used on documents and things, in place of a handwritten signature. It used Japanese pictographs that sounded roughly like my name. I was told by church people that I shouldn’t use it, because I didn’t know exactly what the characters meant (I only had a vague idea). That really confused me, because the same people were happy to use imported words like ‘pajama’ (Indian). In fact, pretty much every word in English has roots from another country or ancient culture that probably worshiped a different god/gods. Who do they think the original speakers of Latin worshiped? Or do they think English just popped into existence in its present form? The thing I found strangest was that the same people were happy to say the days of the week. I don’t know how they feel they can get away with acknowledging whole days as belonging to pagan gods!

    As for yoga, I found it odd that Satan got to claim something so beneficial.

  127. LT wrote:

    THC, could you please provide any other specifics.

    I wish I could, but I don’t know any more than what I posted. I wasn’t a regular attender of that church nor did I follow Morris after he left. I just think it interesting I remember his last service at Shady Grove. It’s possible that it was in 1999, or maybe 1998 when it occurred. I guess in the back of my mind I was thinking, “what are you trying to accomplish by leaving?” I guess I had an inclination he wanted more than what he was being given.

    Thanks for reminding me of the name Olen Griffing. I was trying to remember that for a while. I didn’t know he went to work for Robert Morris! What a flip! He’s on their website too!

  128. Sophie wrote:

    As for yoga, I found it odd that Satan got to claim something so beneficial.

    What I always heard was that yoga was inseparable from meditation, and “clearing your mind of all thoughts” would open you up to demon possession. Or something like that. Although I don’t practice that kind of meditation, I don’t believe either of those things. And I’m just about to open a handy little app on my phone and spend seven minutes contorting myself into various not-entirely-comfortable positions on the living room floor.

    Namaste!

  129. Sophie wrote:

    …I have to chime in one more time to mention how ironic it is that this ministry is called ‘Freedom in Christ’. Christian or not, if I believed what Anderson believes, I’d be scared to leave the house.

    So very true. Freedom is not what is promoted by these groups. ‘Bondage’ is the word I would use.

  130. JeffT wrote:

    “Satan is so enraged by Anderson’s ministry that he has launched fantastic physical attacks against him, such as biting Anderson on the hand”
    I so want to visit his church wearing a T-Shirt that says “Bite Me!”

    Please tell me when I can find the place where Neil Anderson said he was bitten by satan

  131. Even though we may disagree in the area of spiritual gifts, I want to let Dee and Deb know how much I appreciate their efforts.

  132. Angela Shirley wrote:

    Please tell me when I can find the place where Neil Anderson said he was bitten by satan

    Here is the exact quote from his book The Bondage Breaker which is available on line here

    http://selfdefinition.org/hearing-voices/Neil-T-Anderson-The-Bondage-Breaker.pdf

    “On another occasion I was preparing to speak in chapel on the topic of deliverance and evangelism, in which I would expose some of the strategies of Satan in these areas. Early that morning I rose and showered before my wife or children were awake. When I stepped out of the shower I found several strange symbols traced on the fogged-up mirror. I didn’t do it, and Joanne, Heidi, and Karl were still asleep; they hadn’t done it either. I wiped the markings off the mirror, suspicious that someone was flinging darts at me to dissuade me from my chapel message.

    I went down to eat breakfast alone, and as I was sitting in the kitchen, suddenly I felt a slight pain on my hand that made me flinch. I looked down to see what appeared to be two little bite-marks on my hand. “Is that your best shot?” I said aloud to the powers of darkness attacking me, “Do you think symbols on the mirror and a little bite are going to keep me from giving my message in chapel today? Get out of here.” The nuisance left, and my message in chapel went off without a hitch.”

  133. @ dee:
    How many old horror movies has this guy watched, do you think? Because he sounds like he thinks he’s living in one. (Not meant as snark – that part about the mirror is a stock device in horror movies and fiction.)

    I look at this now, 20 years after the fact, and can’t believe i took *anything* of his seriously – though in truth, it seemed like the same old same old at the time.

  134. numo wrote:

    How many old horror movies has this guy watched, do you think? Because he sounds like he thinks he’s living in one. (Not meant as snark – that part about the mirror is a stock device in horror movies and fiction.)

    Demonic bites are also a device in fringe literature of some 50 years ago. I remember reading one of those fringe books (most probablyStrange World or Stranger than Science by Frank Edwards) in the Sixties containing an account that was apparently well-known at the time. Besides the text story (which I remember reading in at least two of these fringe collection books) I think it was also dramatized on that old B&W TV show One Step Beyond. Given the urban-legend style provenance of this sort of tale (and subject matter), I now have no idea of its credibility, but here’s what little I remember of it after almost 50 years:

    Something about a girl or woman who kept having painful bite marks appear on her arms and body “by themselves”. I specifically remember at one point she was locked in a cell for her own protection saw whatever-it-was float through the bars and start biting her. Only she could see her phantom attacker, and she described it as looking human but with “big bulging eyes and a loose yellow scarf around its neck.”

    Any other aficionado of the weird out there remember that one?

  135. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Any other aficionado of the weird out there remember that one?

    Found one additional mention, confirmed source as Frank Edwards (Stranger than Science, circa 1959):

    on 5/10/1951 clarita villaneuva age 18 of manila was repeatedly bitten by an invisible assailant only she could see. onlookers could see the wounds appear ‘in front of their eyes’

    Further searches on “Clarita Villanueva” bring up about 2/3 Deliverance Ministry testimonies and 1/3 David Icke Reptoid Conspiracy sites. There also appears to be some sort of Christian Testimony book about it, and that’s where the trail fades out.

  136. @ dee:

    To be fair, Anderson didn’t claim to have been personally bitten by satan, at least in that quote. He does describe these events as being down to “powers of darkness attacking me”.

    Now, I don’t know for certain what was going on there. For instance, symbols would appear on a fogged-up mirror if they had been traced there earlier, so the fact that his family was asleep certainly doesn’t mean it couldn’t have been them. For years, one of our son’s little handprints would appear in the condensation on our bathroom mirror because of a single instance of him pressing his hand against it as a toddler. There was nothing remotely supernatural about this – it was due to the hydrophobic properties of the non-volatile oils on his hand, and we saw him leave the hand-print at the time. (We didn’t clean it off because it was so adorable!) That doesn’t mean I believe it impossible that the symbols on Anderson’s mirror had a demonic origin. I think another explanation is possible, and more likely.

    I don’t want to write an exhaustive Mythbuster comment; my point is simply that

     Rejecting out of hand the various plain references in the NT to demonic activity, and
     Seeing demons under every stone and behind every misfortune

    are not the only two options.

  137. dee wrote:

    Warren Throckmorton

    Speaking of seminary presidents doing odd things, the president of the seminary I attended offered to hear the confessions of police officers and absolve them during “Ferguson October”.