"He heals the brokenhearted
And binds up their wounds."
Concern for those who have been abused, whether it be physical, psychological, sexual, or spiritual, is a prime directive here at The Wartburg Watch, and our hearts break for the brokenhearted. Psalm 147:3 informs us that God 'heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds'. Could it be that He is using the American justice system to do just that?
As you may know, Sovereign Grace Ministries, et al has filed seven motions seeking dismissal of a lawsuit. Gleanings, a Christianity Today website, recently reported:
"SGM asked a Maryland court to dismiss the lawsuit, arguing that "courts can’t get involved in the internal affairs of church business" (Associated Press paraphrase) and that the allegations against it are too vague. CT reported on SGM's First Amendment defense in January, noting how legal observers question whether clergy-penitent privilege applies in this situation."
Last week (March 27, 2013), the plaintiffs' attorneys filed a response to the request for dismissal called Plaintiffs' Opposition to Defendants' Motions Alleging Pleading Failure.
We have read this document and found the following statements to be of great interest:
"Defendants seek to evade accountability and hide the truth about their egregious wrongdoing". (page 1)
"Defendants quibble that that the FAC (First Amended Complaint) does not identify the precise amount of damages sought, but the Plaintiffs' Hearing Statement made it quite clear that expert witnesses are quantifying the compensatory damages. The Statement also made it clear that punitive damages attributable to the class action are approximately $50 million. (page 4)
"Defendants continue to conspire to prevent secular authorities from detecting and incarcerating predators,,," (page 11)
"Defendants simply have not stopped their conspiratorial efforts to encourage and facilitate sexual and the sexual and physical abuse of children, and to prevent past sexual and physical from being detected by law enforcement" (page 12)
"As alleged in the FAC, Defendants continue to permit known predators to have direct contact and continual access to children without providing any warning to parents" (page 12)
"Defendants continue to hide facts about predators from law enforcement" (page 12)
We will continue to follow this lawsuit and keep you apprised of any developments.
We find it most interesting that just as serious charges are being leveled at Sovereign Grace Ministries, et al, there in a growing outcry against abuse, especially when it involves children. First there were the pedophile priests in the Catholic Church. Then there was the Sandusky scandal, which drew international attention. With each new report of child abuse, sexual or otherwise, we believe the chorus of those who are outraged grows stronger.
Just 12 days ago Jack Schaap was sentenced to 12 years in prison for having sex with a 17-year-old-girl who attended his church (link).
And last week John and Charica Daugherty, son and daughter-in-law of the senior pastor of Victory Christian Center in Tulsa, Oklahoma, pleaded no contest for failing to report the rape of a 13-year-old-girl for two weeks. (link)
The Daughertys were headed for a jury trial, but they pleaded no contest (meaning they did not contest the evidence the state had against them) with each receiving a five year suspended sentence.
According to the TulsaWorld (see link above), the judge said:
"I would convict them, but the (maximum sentence) is a year, and I want to hold the hammer over your head for longer."
Here is an interesting excerpt from that TulsaWorld article:
"Hiddle gave the Daughertys a choice of a conviction with the same 30-day jail sentence currently being served by two other staff members or the five-year deferred sentence, which is not a conviction.
As senior staff members, the Daughertys, Hiddle said, should have the same responsibility to report the crime as the lower employees who first knew about it. However, the evidence was not as strong against employees further up in the church's hierarchy.
"I'm constrained by the evidence," he said. "The evidence is strongest against the lowest person."
The Daughertys were ordered to meet regularly with the judge during the five years of their deferred sentence and to go before other organizations that supervise children to talk about their policies and what happened at Victory Christian.
Hiddle also ordered that they establish a policy for reporting child abuse that he would review.
Within the five-year deferred sentence, Hiddle ordered the Daughertys to present the policy to 20 organizations.
"We respect the judge's decision and sincerely hope that today will serve as another part of the ongoing healing process," according to a Victory Christian statement following the judgment."
It is definitely worth noting that before the judge ruled in this case, the Tulsa County Assistant District Attorney argued that the Daughertys should be held to a higher standard of responsibility because they are leaders at the church. According to District Attorney McAmis:
"Any true leader, any person of character, and person of God … would stand up and say, 'The buck stops here…They are the leaders. The way they responded was, 'I'm too busy.' "
As can sometimes be the case, when one crime is discovered, there can be other victims who have not yet been identified. In this situation a 13-year-old year girl's rape brought about an investigation that "uncovered more victims of sex crimes and a second child-sex-crime suspect, who was also allegedly not reported to authorities during a two-week period last year."
The TulsaWorld concludes with these sobering statements:
"Chris Denman, 20, pleaded guilty last year to six felony child-sex charges, including the rape of the 13-year-old girl. He was sentenced to 55 years in prison and five years of probation.
The second suspect, Israel Shalom Castillo, 23, was charged with making a lewd or indecent proposal over Facebook to a 14-year-old girl, according to court records. He has pleaded not guilty and faces a jury trial scheduled in August.
Victory Christian Center is involved in a civil lawsuit filed by the 13-year-old's mother seeking damages for negligence and intentional infliction of emotion distress, according to court records."
We certainly hope The Gospel Coalition crowd will address the serious matter of abuse when they hold their national conference in Orlando. In addition to all their 'gospelrific' messages, it would behoove them to tackle this topic head-on and start walking the walk, not just talking the talk.
Thankfully, it appears the world at large no longer turns a blind eye to child abuse. It would behoove Christian leaders to speak out against such atrocities if they want to be respected. A failure to do so will likely have dire consequences in the years to come.
Lydia's Corner: Judges 13:1-14:20 John 1:29-51 Psalm 102:1-28 Proverbs 14:15-16
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They aren’t going to change. That would be admitting THEY were wrong and that’s not gospelly possible SGM. They have a persecution complex where the pastors and staff are the only victims while the real victims are painted as liars and out to stop them. They (SGM) must be true if they are being persecuted.
Wake up and smell the affidavits! You are going to fail, you are failing, and nobody will catch you when you hit bottom.
As for the second case, why wait? Every state and the federal government have laws on the books about failing to report a crime, to my knowledge. Why do people think not reporting crimes is a good idea? It isn’t. It’s dangerous because the perpetrator, depending on the crime, will keep committing that crime until they are caught and/or stopped. Sometimes not even then.
And last but not least, I’m glad the victims are speaking out and seeking damages.
Oh well, it’s way pat my bedtime and I took another day off work Tues because I was having panic attacks last week which means I am so stressed that I should be in the hospital. I can’t afford that so I decided two days off work was better. Please pray for those of us with mental health issues, especially those who might be having flare ups and set backs. Or other situations.
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My, the Gospel Coalition Conference sure does pack those 5 days with talks, conferences, seminars, etc. Mahaney will lead a seminar entitled “Knowing God as Father: Understanding the Doctrine of Adoption.” That should be enlightening.
Some of the talks have the word “suffering” in their title, but their descriptions do not mention child molestation. None of those presentations do.
Maybe some brave person will break the silence, but I wouldn’t hold my breath. So much brain-power at that conference, but what is it worth? It’s like the professor who can’t help the person who has just had an accident because he’s late for his talk entitled “Mercy.” A lot of talking – signifying nothing.
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Sanctimonious Statutory Religious Rape : “The Making Of A Public Mockery Of The House Of God?”
SGM’s recent demonstrated attitude concerning the class-action-lawsuit brought against them:
Quote : “SGM believes that allowing courts to second-guess pastoral guidance would represent a blow to the First Amendment that would hinder, not help, families seeking spiritual direction among other resources in dealing with the trauma related to any sin including child sexual abuse,” -Tommy Hill, SGM’s director of administration, said in a “- November 14, 2012 statement.”
What?
(Gross, and very calloused , huh?)
Quote: “His Sheep, I think the point is not the money. The point is putting this out in the open and calling the SGM leaders to account.” “- Luna Moth”, SGM Survivors, comment #53.
hmmm…
SGM ‘s proverbial response?: What impudence, What insolence,
What elaborate effrontery, how positively offensive! hmmm…C.J. your fired! Nothing personal…just business!
-snicker-
Da Ceege’s proverbial response: What contemptuousness, crust’d disdain, What prideful insolence! Mommy!
-snark-
Welcome to the real world, C.J. Mahaney! “Get me outa here Mister Wizard?” Ahem! Albert Mohler?
hmmm…
In the real world, words have meaning, and actions…well, they have dire consequences, and your illustrious JohnnyC toting friends may not save you? At some point in this ghastly drama, they may be too busy finding their own dang life boat, perhaps?
And the band played on…
Crrrrrrrrrrrrrrchunk!
For every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction?
Does this apply to this ‘questionable’ religious systems also?
hmmm…
Hence, mass that is lost’d by this proverbial nefarious religious system will cause a change in momentum that is not the result of an external force? Note: SGM Mass (to date) had been decreased by a neg 20 (affiliated churches)
Ops?
(is this down-ward trend going to con-tin-ue?)
Time to pay da piper? (and I don’t mean: John)
What is this all about anyway?
…issn’t this about bringing the victims of this nefarious ‘religious’system called Sovereign Grace Ministries, justice and relief from their sufferings?
Hasn’t public trust at the highest religious level of this institution been broken?
Won’t the restoration of that trust take more than money?
Hasn’t the fruit of this breach of trust reached into the very heart of the SBC, T4G, TGC, etc?
Oh, My!
Has it not effected the very heart of the ‘Reformed Faith’ movement here in the United States?
Has it not effected how a pastor is trained or receives their religious training, and continues in their position?
Has it not taught the American pastor that they are in a ruling class all by themselves where accountability in its ranks has its own code, and cadence regardless of public opinion, or common decency?
Has it not taught the average church attender, that they have no voice or say in the proceedings of this ‘questionable ‘ nefarious religious system, even when it brings harm to their children?
Has it not taught many a pastor and criminal alike, that in the house of God, they can hide behind the very laws that were designed to engender public trust and safety?
Certainly the State of Maryland, and the Maryland justice system have a ten ton elephant by the proverbial tail?
hmmm…Could b.
(As we are all well aware, this has happened with other religious church systems in the resident past, and this current public effort of bringing justice and the restoration of tender public trust, certainly won’t be the last. )
(sadface)
We wish the State of Maryland every success, with the sad reminder that ‘the house of God’ “of today”, ‘can not’ or ‘will not’ police itself or it’s own.
(What about the State of Virginia, Sic Semper Tyrannis?…how about:Sic Usquequaque Ut Monastica Tyrannis?)
hmmm…
*
Justice begins with the house of God?
Since when?
Bringing outside justice and accountability to the inner-workings of Sovereign Grace Ministries?
ha!
What audacity?
What is under the SGM ‘hood’?
…removing the voice of the people and silencing them?…training their pastors to perpetuate this nefarious religious system, and the possible heinous conduct that goes with it?…bringing the church at large, the bride of Christ, mockery, scorn, ridicule, and parody? …the worship of God, has now become some sick joke?
—-> Who comes in Jesus’ name to thieve, to destroy, and to scatter God’s kind folk?
hmmm…
…is the proverbial ‘jawbone’ of the seventh American State now required to quell this present darkness?; this religious descent into madness?
…Montée pour l’occaion ?
hmmm…
Would not Jesus say, I came that they might hive life, but you have brought them in ‘chains’ to despair?
Who or what is the proverbial Sovereign Graces Les Miserables really serving?
Ils ont m’a poussé à me faire tomber, mais le Seigneur m’a sauvé. Le Seigneur est ma force, c’est le sujet de mes chansons : il m’a sauvé. Cris de joie éclatent, cris de délivrance dans les tentes des justes ! Parce que le Seigneur, par son pouvoir, fait des exploits, le Seigneur par son pouvoir, a remporté la victoire parce que le Seigneur, par sa puissance, a fait des exploits !
Wartburg, Bénédictions !
Le S㋡py un
—
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“The second suspect, Israel Shalom Castillo, 23, was charged with making a lewd or indecent proposal over Facebook to a 14-year-old girl, according to court records.”
Allow me just a moment to bang on my Pet Peeve Drum again – this is the kind of crap you’re gonna get when churches don’t acknowledge age of consent laws and yarp about young marriage. It’s a C-R-I-M-E, folks. I guess Mr. Castillo had to find that one out the hard way (and it sounds like he didn’t even touch the girl which just goes to show you don’t always need physical contact for it to be a C-R-I-M-E, either). Off drumming.
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My questions is–Why do people follow these leaders who have no integrity at all? Run as far away as you can from this insanity. These leaders are leading a sinking ship and it will sink.
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It's worth noting that with just six days to go til The Gospel Coalition's National Conference kicks off, there are still 200 seats available.
http://thegospelcoalition.org/
How can that be?
In case you're wondering how many will be traveling to Orlando to attend this bi-annual conference, Jared Wilson provides some insight in his post Why I Attend TGC
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/gospeldrivenchurch/2013/03/20/why-i-attend-tgc/
Here is what he wrote:
"I am encouraged by the bigness.
Again, I enjoy the relational aspects of smaller venues, but my heart is also greatly encouraged when I see 4,000 people in one room exalting God and exulting in the gospel…"
With all the buzz from this group of theologians, how can there possibly be any seats left?
Could it be that this movement is reaching its saturation point?
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@ Deb:Yeah, praise the Lord and promote Mahaney and the kids? So what! Where is the shame?
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I’m rather hoping the same sense of revulsion regarding the acts of their leaders fills conservative Protestants as has happened with Catholics. I have a friend, a devout Catholic, he goes to Mass every Sunday, but he puts no money in the collection plate because he can’t be sure the diocese won’t steal it for child sexual abuse payouts. He makes a point of giving money where the diocese can’t get its grubby hands on it. (But, as we found out recently with the Los Angeles’ archdiocese’s cemetery fund, even if you thought it was safe, Cardinal Mahony might swoop in and flat-out steal $114 million to pay off his lawsuits. So, it’s not perfect.)
I think the only thing these Gospel Coalition types will respond well to is the sight of folding money being kept in wallets and checks being kept unwritten in checkbooks.
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Don’t be discouraged, folks..their day in court is coming. The shame is just beginning…and I think the fallout will be more serious than we can predict, as we don’t know all the facts yet. Hang in there, everyone….it’s not over yet. The court system will reveal the truth, and CJ and company will be exposed, and in the end the church will be stronger as fear will go into the heart of every pastor. God will not allow these men to get away with it. Watch HIM at work in the coming months………
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Eagle wrote:
Also, I think, that a majority of the abuses happened with older priests. I think that if you look at 40 or 50 years ago you had two options: get married and have a family or become a priest or nun.
I think subconsciously, those who may have thought they were gay and didn’t feel called to be married, went into religious service, since they didn’t have any other option.
None of this makes it right, but I think that is why you tend to see it with older priests (and nuns too)
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Let’s be real clear…when TGC gathers there will be 4,000 “folks” present. There will not be 4,000 “theologians” present. When I think of theologians I think of folks like Barth, Bonhoeffer, Volf, Hauerwas, and James McLendon. You know, folks who used their brains and theologized for the sake of making the kingdom known in the interest of the downtrodden and marginalized. I’ve seen nothing to prove the TGC is about the least of these. Nothing. And I’ve seen nothing to demonstrate that Scripture is anything more than a proof-text for very watered down and bad systematics. I mean, we’ve got CJ Mahaney “teaching” on God the Father. Not a theologian. Not a professor. No freaking training at all. Not even a good speaker. So let’s not call them theologians. And let’s not pretend anything substantial is happening when these white men and a few token minorities all get together to pat their backs and push their own books – for the sake of God’s glory, cough cough.
Makes me sick. Literally.
Jesus, whip, money tables, all that. But throw on some khakis, say “gospel” 100 times every hour, and talk about Piper in reverential tones & I guess you get a clear conscience.
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The attitude of many men (not all by any stretch) in the church toward sex and young women makes seeing statutory rape as a non issue or a lesser issue.
I will give another example of men totally missing the point until a couple of gals helped them to see it.
Here is an account of my experience on a young, religious right conservative blog. The names were changed to protect the innocent. The comments beneath are pretty good too.
http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2012/03/sex-drugs-and-mark-driscoll-pt-3.html
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And here is the follow up of the story I linked above.
http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2012/03/sex-drugs-and-mark-driscoll-pt-4.html
One of the problems is the attitude that women are more easily deceived than men. This is not true. There are places where men, driven by their own, uhm, drives, are far more easily deceived. They know how they would like things to be for them.
[again, not all men. but many.]
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Let me apologize in advance. I’m way too passionate about this subject (i.e. the TGC, T4G, Driscoll, etc).
My heart breaks for all the women and children who have been crushed under the wheels. My heart breaks for all the downtrodden these men ignore. My heart breaks for all the naive, who swallow the whole scheme hook, line, and sinker.
It’s not the gospel. It’s sub-biblical.
It’s a neat little scheme. Nothing is ever asked of these men. They don’t pay through seminary – hell, they don’t even bother with it. They don’t suffer on foreign soil – they plant churches in posh suburbia. They don’t spend time in soup kitchens – they go to conferences. They don’t confront injustice – they’d rather write books on conforming to authority. They don’t think – they justify.
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Eagle
It is cognitive dissonance. He loves Piper. Piper is good. Therefore, everything Piper says muct be good. So, smacking someone is not hitting them. i would be concerned for your friend in the future is he can easily dismiss someone smacking one’s wife.
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scotT
I agree that these sorts of men are deliberately ignoring the pain because they do get a nice upper middle class life. Wait until you see a document that I was sent about a new confidentiality policy at Steven Furtick’s church. If this one does not send a chill up your spine, nothing will.
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Mara
Re:comment on deception-Given the current state of affairs at SGM, as well as the pedophile situations throughout the SBC, it is evident to me that there are many men who are gullible and easily deceived and they are the ones in leadership.
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@ PhillyInDC:Did you know that sexual abuse in the SBC is rampant and not far behind the Catholic church. Since one can marry in the SBC, why should that be?
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Eagle wrote:
So SGM’s Gospelly(TM) Christ is the God of Child Molestors.
And God (and His Predestined Elect) Can Do No Wrong.
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@ JeffB: I think Mahaney is hoping the SBC will adopt him and he can jump the ship he built. The SBC, or at least SBTS and gang could be his sugar daddy.
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dee wrote:
“I Got Mine,
I Got Mine,
I DON’T WANT A THING TO CHANGE
NOW THAT I GOT MINE…”
— Glenn Frye
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I am hopeful about the new pope and his choice of lifestyle, dumping a lot of the trappings and living modestly rather than expensively. It would be absolutely fantastic if he were to say to all of the bishops –“do not live like a king; move into smaller quarters, give up the chauffeur-driven limos, and live your vow of poverty. Sell the assets you no longer need and use that to help the poor and to keep the churches open.”
I suppose that there are billions of dollars worldwide that would be freed up were that done.
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Eagle wrote:
But nor are they actually charismatic either. What would you call them?
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dee wrote:
A year ago Deb had a post about CJ Mahaney:Mahaney Reclaims Throne at T4G – April 11,2012
“We are called to take the gospel to those with hard hearts and blind eyes.”
C.J. Mahaney (in The Sustaining Power of the Gospel at 2012T4G)
Resolved 2010 – CJ Mahaney teaches to preach the gospel to yourself – You Tube video
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@ Eagle:
Speaking of what SGM believes, you wrote: “Since God ordains evil its important to remember that every evil act is an act of worship to God. When a child gets molested, well the molester is being obedient and worshipping God. This is why I think SGM goes to such lengths to protect the pedophile while hammering the family. Why? The pedophile is worshipping God when he molests a kid. Whereas the family is questioning God’s sovereignty and will by confronting the situation or going to law enforcement.”
While I’ve gone on record many times to criticize SGM’s faulty theology, I think that, with all due respect, this goes too far. Believing that God is ultimately responsible for all that happens is not the same as believing “that every evil act is an act of worship to God.” This is akin to devil worship. If they believe that God is the author of evil and that He enjoys evil, both of which Scripture explicitly denies, then, yes, their God is Satanic. I’m not saying that this is impossible, just that their beliefs can be very faulty (and possibly bordering on evil) and can explain their attitude towards child molestation, without their confusing God and Satan.
I realize that it gets very abstract when people such as myself say that I believe that God is ultimately responsible for all that happens, including evil, while not being the author of evil or enjoying it. I don’t pretend to understand it; I just think that the Bible says these things – and also says that all that God does is good. Also, I’m not claiming to be speaking for what SGM believes – just that, if they do believe it, it’s not necessarily an evil belief, imo.
I think where SGM goes way off track is their taking the truth that everyone is a sinner and stupidly (evilly?) applying this directly to individual situations. So when someone molests a child, they go out of their way to remind the victim(!) and the victim’s parents that they are sinners also and must need to instantly forgive, etc. So they see a crying, seemingly repentant victimizer who acknowledges his sin, and angry parents who don’t exactly want to be reminded at that moment that they are sinners. As for the child – maybe they see this as a “teaching moment,” or something. Admittedly, this is lunacy, but it shows what can happen when one’s faulty beliefs completely overwhelm common sense and human feeling.
Behind all this is their general over-emphasis on sin and under-emphasis on mercy and grace. In any case, all these “pastors” are culpable; especially, of course, the ones who committed molestation. The fact that, apparently, they are still providing aid and comfort to the molesters, whether pastors or not, makes evil more probable as a motive.
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@ JeffB:
Realy good comment.
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@ Eagle:
Respectfully, I think you need to be really careful about drawing logical conclusions for other people. I don’t like it when people do it it me, and so I try hard not to do it to to others (like SGM). When people don’t argue against what I believe, but what they think I should believe, it just takes the conversation to an impass. At some point we all appeal to mystery because we cannot comprehend the infinite. As far as SGM goes, there is plenty that they state they believe that is faulty without having to appeal to logical conclusions.
I’ve argued over and over again that I don’t see the difference in a God who allows evil and one who plans it. To me they are the exact same thing with the exact same moral responsibility. So in my view, those who take a “God allows a woman to be raped” ends up at the same place as the “God ordains a woman to be raped”. In fact, I think they are the same thing using different language. Now the “allows” folks disagree, saying that my logical conclusiosn of their beliefs are off. Fine, I won’t argue that- but don’t force ME to (what you think are) my logical conclusions either. On both sides (“allows” and “ordains”) you have folks that admit the existence of evil and yet still call God “good”. To accept both of these things (and not take away any “omni” from God) requires some acceptance that the truth of how all of this works is beyond us.
Again, SGM has plenty that is wrong without having to argue things they don’t state that they believe. Doing so, IMO, makes the case against them appear weak.
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“I’ve argued over and over again that I don’t see the difference in a God who allows evil and one who plans it. To me they are the exact same thing with the exact same moral responsibility. So in my view, those who take a “God allows a woman to be raped” ends up at the same place as the “God ordains a woman to be raped”. In fact, I think they are the same thing using different language. ”
There is a third possibility but because of the definitions of Sovereignty they are not considered because they think it makes God appear wimpy and not really Sovereign.
And that third possibility is we do not really engage in what it means to be human, carry the Image of God and the responsibility given in that context. We take humans out of the equation and make it all God. If we do try and engage the human element then we are accused of elevating man equal to God. I sometimes wonder in this paradigm what the purpose of the Cross really was as it seems even the Cross did not give man the ability to have volition.
I think all of it takes away any responsibility of humans and puts it on God. I also think it ignores the fact there is evil that still roams this planet trying to devour us. In fact, I will go a step further and say that the doctrine does not differentiate between God and Satan and that concerns me quite a bit. It comes down to not really being able to discern what is evil. Like all sin being the same and since I am a sinner, then that means the pedophile is the same sinner, too. It is moral chaos as we argue the details.
We make our mistake when we take humans and their volition out of the equation.
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@ Mara:
Excellent point about the Steven Tyler story. I remember when that story circulated a few months back and no, nobody ever called Tyler on having impregnated a 14yo.
A lot of Christian parents also seem to think “nothing will happen” because their kids are Christians, so it’s okay to let a 19yo boy date a 15yo girl (or 23yo date 17yo – technically past the age of consent but still with rules about a greater-than-2-year age difference, at least in my state). My position: tell your kids to date within the parameters of the law. Otherwise you’re playing with fire and their butts could be on the line legally, esp. given the horrendous statistics on broken purity vows.
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@ Anon 1:
I don’t actually understand what you are trying to say in this comment, but I absolutely agree that we cannot take the responsibility of humans away and put it on God. I think scripture is very clear that humans have responsibility.
What I cannot figure out is how humans can have responsbility while God is “omni” (fill in the blank)- and I cannot figure this out under an Arminian, Calvinist, or any other paradigm. What I object to is making Calvinism the only theology that strips men of responsibility when taken to its logical conclusion. Any view that has God knowing an evil act will occur as a result of his creation, and he goes ahead and big fat does it anyway, makes him responsible for that act under my logic. Yet scripture says this is not the case. So either I throw away scripture, or I recognize that my paradigm for understanding the moral consequences of God’s actions is innacurate. But it is innacurate both with respect to Arminian AND Calvinist constructs (and those that lie in between).
The God I believe in, while I believe he regenerated me through his soverign choice, is not a God who is the author of evil.
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@ JeffB:
Excellent point. Morever, it speaks to how overemphasis on one doctrine or another, to the relative disregard of a possibly contrary one, leads to abuse by the church.
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“Any view that has God knowing an evil act will occur as a result of his creation, and he goes ahead and big fat does it anyway, makes him responsible for that act under my logic. Yet scripture says this is not the case. So either I throw away scripture, or I recognize that my paradigm for understanding the moral consequences of God’s actions is innacurate. But it is innacurate both with respect to Arminian AND Calvinist constructs (and those that lie in between).”
We are not stuck with only an Ariminian or Calvin construct. I do think we need to ignore Augustine and go back further which is way too involved for a blog comment. I think Augustine really hurt Christianity. He brought in the dualism of material evil/spiritual good only.I have come to believe we read his Platonic duelism right back into scripture.
In that construct it was folly for Abraham to beg God to save Lot. The examples are endless. In that construct it is folly for me to have a “relationship” with Jesus Christ because it is one sided only. Not a “relationship”. How we can read of the relationship and interactions of God in the Flesh and maintain such definitions of Sovereignty of “omni” whatever, I do not understand. It makes God into a bait and switch god.
I would start with presuppositions and then try and understand from there. I am working at not starting with those presuppositions which are very hard to let go of.
I will give you one idea of where I am coming from. God gave humans dominion over the earth. The fall did not take that away but added the element of evil to the recipe. So now we have dominion but with evil included. The Cross gave us the opportunity for redemption but still with evil in the world but the Holy Spirit (the guide, counselor, spirit of truth) indwelling in true believers.
What more do we want? We still indirectly blame God for evil!
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@ Anon 1:
I don’t indirectly blame God for evil 🙂 Jesus, as a man, was tempted for 40 days and nights by the author or deception. Did he blame God for evil during that time? I guess we don’t know for sure, but he never seemed to convey any such thing when he returned from the wilderness. His temptations seemed similar to Eve’s in the garden, but Jesus came through knowing who His Father really was. Did Jesus have free will to choose good over evil? Did Adam and Eve have the same freedom? Or, are they all just automated to perform for the purposes of God? Or, is God love and are we encouraged to love God with all our heart and soul and love our neighbors as ourself for some reason other than love? I think not.
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Pacbox wrote:
Praying for you now, my friend.
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Mara wrote:
Amen, sister!
I am blessed to have grown up with an amazingly wise and discerning mom who seems to have this special ability (gift?) to sniff out shady situations and individuals, whether it’s something small (fudged line items from a house contractor) or something big (industrial espionage in my father’s business – no kidding!).
I’m also blessed to have a wife who is especially gifted in assessing individuals and interpersonal dynamics (she’s a professional psychologist). She often catches things that I wouldn’t give a second thought to.
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Bridget wrote:
Sorry Bridget. The royal “we” maybe? :o)
I don’t think folks directly blame God for evil but it seems their doctrine takes them there without admitting it and then they call it mystery.
I agree with your comment, btw.
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Haven’t had a lot of time to post much lately but trying to keep up with topics and comments..
Will continue to be praying for the victims in this SGM situation, especially as they get farther a long in all of this.. Sure it is not easy..Will continue to follow this to remain updated..
Also want to add that I am appreciative of the conversation on Calvinism/Arminianism…
As one who is confused on the ultimate direction scripture points too with this, I feel like I have learned a lot with y’all’s conversation..
Interesting thoughts Anon1 about Augustine.. So basically, his thoughts have caused us to presuppose something about God’s sovereignty that is not really mentioned in Scripture… It is truly hard to see beyond that.. Do we need to dig deeper into a Hebrew concept of God to see more clearly? It seems difficult to read the scripture without those filters now..
I have honestly been stuck in the middle of all this because I can’t convince myself that God fits the Calvinist paradigm due to verse like you mentioned with Abram/Lot, etc… However, I have a hard time pulling directly away from it due to Paul’s writings and other verses that seem to indicate a Sovreignity apart from man..
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@ Seeker: Perhaps you can be like me. I take a third position which means that it is interesting dialog but I think there is much we cannot understand given the limitations of our finite mind and the three dimensional world in which we reside.
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“Do we need to dig deeper into a Hebrew concept of God to see more clearly? It seems difficult to read the scripture without those filters now.”
Oh, I agree.
“However, I have a hard time pulling directly away from it due to Paul’s writings and other verses that seem to indicate a Sovreignity apart from man..”
Something I have noticed is that much of Paul is filtered through a justification lens when it should be filtered through a sanctification lens. He was writing to and about professing believers mostly. And when it comes to Romans that Augustine filter is there ignoring that he is speaking of a “Jew/Gentile” dichotomy. Not individual election.
There is a prof I have had some interaction with who cannot find the dualism of Augustine BEFORE his writings. Here are some of his guest blog posts about it. It is a series and well worth checking out:
http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/.services/blog/6a00d83451a37369e200d83451a37469e2/search?filter.q=jim+gifford
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Dee,
I am definitely with you on all of this…I have many times come to the point in realizing that I may never fully jump to either side due to our limitations here….Which, in reality, I am perfectly ok with..Certainly doesn’t keep me from the intimacy I long to have with God..Definitely love the dialog though.. 🙂
Anon1,
Once again, interesting thoughts…I have heard before that Paul was speaking on Jew/Gentile dichotomy but I still have a hard time NOT seeing individual election in some parts…This could be largely due to the fact of those filters with Augustine, plus I have read my fair share of HyperCal books and heard quite a few HyperCal sermons in my time..(Piper, Platt, Chandler, etc)…
Definitely going to check out his link..Thanks for sharing!
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FWIW, I don’t know how much of my think is or isn’t influenced by Agustine. It is true that I’ve read/listened to plent up of RC Sproul in my life and of course his thought processes are heavily influenced by Agustine.
But as far as I am aware of it, most of my thinking surrounding how Creation works comes from my professional life as a software developer. I understand how my creations work and my role in the outcomes they produce. It is difficult for me to see God having LESS control over his creation than I do mine, even voluntarily.
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Jeff S wrote:
I do not view it as how much “control” God has or not. I view it from His creation from day 1. Why would he give humans dominion at all if he is controlling it all? Where do we see Him declare he took dominion away?
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@ dee:
I think all of us, if we’re honest, are in that third position because of our limitations. Given that, I think we should do our best to understand what God has chosen to reveal to us.
@ Jeff S:
I think we agree that we must try to be true to Scripture even when we don’t understand how everything fits together. And I think we should assume, unless there is evidence to the contrary, that Calvin, Arminius, Augustine, Wesley, Luther, etc., were doing the same thing. IOW, let’s give them the benefit of the doubt that, despite their errors, they were doing this in good faith. (Not saying that I think you disagree with this – just a general statement.)
@ Eagle:
It’s very clear that you don’t agree with, let’s say, Piper, but that you see certain inevitabilities with what you think he believes. Not sure why you think Piper would say that God ordained what Lanza would do but not what Dahmer would do. Or that he’d say that God ordains rape and not murder.
As you can see from my first comment, I pretty much agree with Piper concerning God’s sovereignty, and, along with Piper, don’t think that that makes God evil. I just think that’s being true to Scripture. My problem with Piper is that he goes on to make stupid and unfeeling remarks in which he presumes to know more than what Scripture says. He also endorses people that I don’t believe he’d have endorsed early in his career. Something bad has happened to him – maybe too much success and acclaim. But he’s responsible for whatever it is.
@ Anon 1:
The only people who think it makes God wimpy to take out the human element and human choice are hard-core Hyper-Calvinists. It’s inaccurate to lay that belief at the feet of Calvin and Calvinists. (You didn’t mention Calvinism in your comment, but I inferred it from the context. If I’m wrong, I apologize.) Scripture, and genuine Calvinists, say that there is some measure of real human freedom, but that it’s of a different order than God’s freedom, and that God sometimes limits human freedom in favor of His own. Again, we can’t explain how all this works out, only that Scripture says it.
@ Seeker:
Piper has his faults, but he’s no Hyper-Calvinist. For one thing, if he were, he wouldn’t talk so much about evangelism and missions. Hyper-Cals tend to believe that evangelism is pointless. Don’t know as much about Platt and Chandler, but I also doubt that they are Hyper-Cals.
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Anon 1 wrote:
You know I believe he gave humans and free will- that’s not my point. I’m just telling you the framework I view this through, and that it isn’t really Agustine that guides my thought patterns.. When I create something, it behaves the way I create it to behave. It’s just beyond my intellegence to understand how God can create something that does not work exactly the way he created it.
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@ Pacbox:
Pacbox…I’m not a regular on here, but I noted your mention of panic attacks and I felt I had to share something…I’ve suffered with anxiety, fibromyalgia, migraines, etc….I have been taking high doses of magnesium (we need way more than the RDA)….and it has dramatically helped my symptoms….read a book called The Magnesium Miracle by Carolyn Deane and was stunned to learn how many bodily processes are controlled by magnesium (or the lack thereof, which creates many problems)….I was taking a product called Calm by Natural Vitality, which helped wondrously, but am now on a product called ReMag which is the pico-ionic form of magnesium which is perfect for maximum absorption (it is absorbed at the cellular level)…Anyway, I felt I would be remiss to not share this and felt led to do so. God bless you!
deb
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@ Jeff S: A lot of other theologians – from quite a diverse array of backgrounds – have been influenced by Augustine.
I saw a video a couple of weeks ago re. how/why a lot of YRR (and other) types are getting Plato wrong. Will see if I can rustle it up and post the link… It was a thoughtful response, and very nuanced.
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@ JeffB:
As (I think) we are, too.
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@ DebbyLynn:
When I saw RDA my first thoughts were what does MacGuyver/General O’neill have to do with panic attacks? I blame too much TV 🙂 Most of my current panic attacks are caused by my work or my mother. I have unfortunately had to come to the decision to quit my current job because it’s gotten to the point where I’m having panic attacks nearly everyday and I can trace every one to work.
At least I already have a job possibility lined up and I do have a few options. So I’m doing this blind or on a whim. I need my sanity. This current job is seriously damaging that.
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Ack. It posted before I was ready. I wanted to add that I’m on an antidepressant plus adding iron and vitamin d. They help but it’s the job.
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Jeff S wrote:
Have you ever created something to have a mind of it’s own? :o)
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JeffB wrote:
I think the point might also be we do not read scripture with same filter so we might not be in agreement as to “scripture says it”.
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numo wrote:
I believe Augustine has influenced most of Western Christianity. I would be very interested in seeing that video.
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numo wrote:
I cannot really do that with Calvin. His doctrine seemed to drive him to be a tyrant which included banishments, tortures, imprisonments, micromanaging daily lives of Genevans, etc, etc.
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@ Pacbox:
Glad you have a job lined up…..in this economy, that’s no small feat…check out the magnesium info, though…antidepressants deplete your already low magnesium stores….stress and anxiety also deplete whatever you have left..(if you’re like me, you’re runnin’ on empty)…it can’t hurt…unlike calcium, magnesium is not stored up in the body…
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Jeff S wrote:
“But as far as I am aware of it, most of my thinking surrounding how Creation works comes from my professional life as a software developer. I understand how my creations work and my role in the outcomes they produce. It is difficult for me to see God having LESS control over his creation than I do mine, even voluntarily.”
“When I create something, it behaves the way I create it to behave. It’s just beyond my intellegence to understand how God can create something that does not work exactly the way he created it.”
***********
I understand where you are coming from. My husband is a software designer, too (he mentally delves so deeply into “code” that he ends up on another planet — perhaps you’ve met there). When all jots and tittles are perfect, the software indeed functions robotically correct, just as he planned it.
It strikes me that flora & fauna are not quite like this. Creation is not without (what shall we call them) flaws/inefficiencies/problems. For example, the L-shape of a dog’s ear canal is just asking for infection. It is very poor design. I do not mean to insult God, and I’m quite he can take my “poor design” statement. Over the aeons, this is simply how dog’s anatomy has ended up. I really don’t think this is God’s specific design plan.
I think he created matter and force, nudged them along with his own creative and fun ideas, and then watched things happen (can’t avoid anthropomorphizing here). Eventualities have come about that are not perfect. But it’s the systems in action, allowed to function.
I’m sure this fits somehow into the conversation, but too tired to find how to tie it all together in a gorgeous way.
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Video is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYRbLwM4t4U
Simon Oliver of Nottingham University: “Why Study Plato”?
His discussion makes me want to read Plato, which is something I’ve never done.
fwiw, C.S. Lewis was a big fan of Plato, and there are quite a few Platonic ideas running through his Chronicles of Narnia. (The Last Battle has many.)
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@ Anon 1:
“Where do we see Him declare he took dominion away?”
We don’t, of course…but that doesn’t stop Reconstructionists from basing their entire theology on the idea that we lost it and now have to get it back.
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Numo, Augustine was into Manichaeism big time. And Plotinus which is a different form of Platonic thought. Not an expert but not sure we are talking about same Platonic thought?
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Neo-platonism begins with Plotinus (at least, that’s the general consensus).
Augustine was a Manichaean prior to his conversion, yes. But Plato is something different – not Gnostic (pre-Gnostic). iirc, though Neo-platonism became (iirc) very infused with gnostic ideas.
The theologians of the early church were reading Plato. I have no doubt that Paul read Plato; he was very conversant with Greek literature and thought.
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Eagle wrote:
If they’re going to slavishly follows the ‘God causes everything’ way of thinking, that would mean the victims and the families fighting back is also God’s will – because God caused that too.
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@ PhillyInDC:
That may or may not be true, but you have to realize one common stereotype of never married adults is that they are latent homosexuals (the males especially get subjected to this one, the females not as much), and this stereotype, or assumption, that people over 35 who’ve not married as homosexual can be offensive or painful. (I know, because I fall in this group.)
(I had one friend -in his 50s, never married, Christian heterosexual male- say he was in a church service once a few years ago where the preacher had an even lower number for the age – if you were a male and had not married by age 25, he said -from the pulpit during a church service to every one there- you must be a homosexual.)
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numo wrote:
Not sure where you are coming from. Augustine was mapping his neo Planonism/Manichaean to Christianity. He basically defined “original sin” for us. Can you find such an “interpretation” before him?
I agree that Paul most likely read Plato as an educated Pharisee taught by Gamaliel…. he was quite comfortable on Areopagus conversing with the philosophers. Can you explain what you mean?
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Daisy wrote:
This kind of thinking (or non-thinking) is not all that far away from a “kill a queer for Christ” mentality. Or at the very least, deny them equal protection under the law.
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JeffB wrote:
Twelve step programs and Nouthetic counseling do this as well, and it really makes me angry.
It would be like if you are a store employee and called 911 because you have a robber in your store waving a gun in everyone’s faces, and the police show up and tell you, “You too are a sinner, Mr. Store Employee. Forgive the robber. We’re letting him go. You need to forgive him and don’t press charges.”
It doesn’t matter if all people involved are sinners, what matters is that the one sinner (the robber) still needs to be held accountable for his actions.
As many others have pointed out here before, lots of these preachers continue to act as though the converted in their pews are still unsaved sinners who need fire and brimstone sermons.
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@ Jeff S:
@jeff
I am in IT as well.
But what God did is very different.
All the programs that I create reflect MY intentions and purposes.
They are essentially extensions of MY will.
God somehow created a “self”. Something that has its own
center of purpose. I cannot do that.
This is a great mystery.
God created something that could “mean” to do what He could
never mean to do. Sin.
And it has to be that way. Love requires two parties.
Unless we are sufficiently distinct “selves” from God it
makes no sense to say God loves us. He would simply be
loving Himself.
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@ Jeff S:
“When I create something, it behaves the way I create it to behave. It’s just beyond my intellegence to understand how God can create something that does not work exactly the way he created it.”
**********************
Congratulations on your creations. I have had a different experience with my 5 (now adult) children. 🙂
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Jeff S wrote:
Who is the “he” here-
“…and he goes ahead and…”
If I understand you right, I don’t get the view that if a man robs a bank, God is guilty, or the cause of the robbery because he foreknew it but did not supernaturally intervene, send a brigade of angels down to halt it, and we have to just assume God is not the cause/guilty/to blame because the Bible says so.
If a man robs a bank, it’s the man’s fault, even though God knew of it beforehand. I don’t see how God is to blame for an action committed by some guy. And the Bible even says ‘thou shalt not rob banks.’ That bank robber would be acting in opposition to what God has said in the Bible.
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Anon 1 wrote:
Even Judaism took on some of the trappings of Hellenism during the time of Paul the Apostle. So it’s no wonder his thinking would be influenced by Greek ideas. Not to mention the language itself which was lingua franca back then, much in the same way English is today.
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Bridget wrote:
I thought that it was not that Jesus did not choose not to sin but being God, He cannot sin. He is incapable of sinning.
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I’m not “mapping” anything.
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Paul grew up in Asia Minor, in a Hellenistic milieu. there’s no way that an educated person of his time would *not* have read Plato.
Plato – and the Neoplatonic writers – were what was cooking in the world of ideas… Jewish philosophers and theologians of Augstine’s time would have read and known them, too.
I do not wish to engage in any further discussion on whether Augustine’s brain was hopelessly corrupted or not. fwiw, later in life he did not agree with many of the things he’d written as a much younger man.
People change; their perspective changes. Augustine no more and no less than anyone else.
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@ Mr.H:
Since most females are raised to be codependent (as I was, by a very codependent mother), you have to learn very young and early to spot deception, for your own safety.
So I’d say many females are probably less prone to being deceived than men are, depending on the sort of background they have.
(Nutshell: codependency means being an absolute doormat, being too afraid to stand up for yourself, allowing yourself to be used and abused, or believing it is sinful, selfish, or Un Christian to have boundaries and defend them.)
Some women are both codependent and naive and do wind up falling for bad people and their cons, that is true-
But in my case, I was not directly abused myself. My mother was abused by her father and one or two other family members, and someone who was directly abused may have the tendency to be a little more trusting (gullible) than someone who was not.
My dad did not physically abuse me. I could not understand why I was being conditioned, by my mother, to be such a doormat even when being bullied by kids when I was a kid, or harassed at jobs by bosses, etc.
My natural instinct was to stand up for myself and fight back (verbally or physically or reporting people to authorities), but my Mom really brainwashed me to believe proper Christian ladies are sweet, passive little things who permit themselves to endure abuse in silence (like John Piper and many gender comps teach).
The only avenue my mother ever permitted me was avoidance: it was okay for me to get up and leave a room and never talk to the abusive person ever again, but that was it.
So from a young age I was taught that self defense (fighting back verbally or physically) was wrong.
So I became hyper-vigilant as a result.
To protect myself from being verbally or physically abused (or taken advantage of in some way or conned) in my childhood, teen years, and adulthood, I had to learn to size people up very quickly, to see if I could trust them or not.
If I surmised no, the person could not be trusted, then I had to exit the room (or phone call or whatever) as quickly as I could and never run into that person again.
I could not afford to be too trusting or naive, because I was raised once you’re being used or abused, you have no right to fight back (the abuser’s self esteem, feelings, and reputation are more important than my feelings, needs, safety, etc).
Learning to spot deception very quickly was a matter of physical and emotional safety / self preservation for me.
And that’s true for a lot of females who have been conditioned to never fight back.
Your only means of staying alive, sane, or safe is staying suspicious of every one you meet, staying cynical, and learning to spot the abusers, jerks, manipulators, liars, and con artists from 100 miles off, and then avoiding them like the plague.
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@ Muff Potter: Exactly.
and, as Oliver points out in the video I linked to upthread, Plato’s ideas were the basis for much science, then and now. (Well, OK, that was pre-scientific and all, but still…)
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@ Muff Potter: Further… Mani was Persian. He came from a society where Zoroastrianism was pervasive.
Zoroastrianism is dualistic.
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@ Daisy: What that person said is just plain pig-ignorant.
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@ Muff Potter:
All I know is I get a little tired of all the assumptions of people like me, over 35 years of age, who have never married.
There are so many, like, if you’re past 35 years old and haven’t married yet, you must be…
a homosexual; you must have put career before anything else; you must have a low libido; you must be a hardcore feminist who hates men; you must be a weirdo; you must be ugly/fat; you must have chosen to remain single this long.
There are other stereotypes about mature singles. The ‘you must be homosexual’ one does pop up every so often.
(Sorry in advance if this is a double post but my internet connection has been going in and out all evening. please delete any duplicate posts of mine if you like.)
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@ Dana:
Ha!!! I can relate to this!! Methinks our creations must have free wills — or we royally screwed up the programming. Maybe Jeff can give us some programming lessons? (Hope you laugh with us, Jeff 🙂 )
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@ Daisy:
Daisy –
He was a man as well. He was tempted the same as you and I but without sin.
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@ Bridget:
But he was also God.
In the Old Testament, there is some verse saying something about how God cannot lie. Not that he just chooses not to, but it goes against his very nature or essence.
I’m not sure if Jesus could have sinned (even if tempted to), since it doesn’t appear possible for God to sin, whether he takes on a human body or not.
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Eagle wrote:
Eagle — I’ve just finished reading a book recommended by GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment) by Anna C Salter, Ph.D., called PREDATORS: Pedophiles, Rapists & Other Sex Offenders, Who They Are, How They Operate, and How We Can Protect Ourselves and Our Children (2003, Basic Books) — so your comments about pedophiles in SGM and the RCC really interest me. Please, please, everyone — read this book –except maybe the chapter on sadists, which may be too difficult to get through. After I read a page of that chapter I had nightmares. But I will tell you that the pedophiles I have had the misfortune to personally know fit the descriptions in this book to a T. We need to become as educated as possible about predators — they are usually people we know.
I believe it would be a stretch to blame theology for encouraging pedophilia, and at the same time, it would be a stretch to think of RCC pedophiles as being simply poorly screened or wrongly hired and somehow less evil than SGM pedophiles. Until 1985, when the first pedophile scandal became public, pedophiles in the RCC were almost completely covered up — transferred to other parishes where they continued to offend, and victims were ignored and traumatized in similar ways that the SGM victims have been.
Churches, whether they are RCC or SGM or any other variety are easy targets, safe harbors and rich hunting grounds for pedophiles for several different reasons. The failure of the church is not in a theology that encourages pedophiles per se, but is in trusting people and allowing them easy access to children. Some pedophiles have been reported by multiple victims. But because we have mistaken a person’s niceness for his trustworthiness, parents, pastors, and leaders could not believe that these people actually did these things — which enabled them to become even bolder in their criminal activities.
Pedophiles are often intelligent and crafty people. They know exactly how to insert themselves into situations that provide easy access to children. Dr. Salter’s book indicates that many pedophiles began their aberrant activity when they themselves were quite young — way before they could be encouraged by theology to become pedophiles. The pedophiles I had the misfortune to know in an SGM church had committed previous crimes long before they ever heard of SGM. I made the mistake of thinking they were true Christians who fell into temptation; now I know that they deliberately deceived people and wormed their way into people’s lives & homes so they could satisfy their pedophilic desires. They may actually have been Christians, but they still committed sins and crimes and used the church to find victims and to create a safe environment in case they were ever caught. They knew that behaving in likable ways would accomplish two goals: they would be able to manipulate innocent children, and they would be fairly safe from being prosecuted because nobody would believe that such a nice person could do such a thing, and even if they did believe it, Christians are quick to forgive. They didn’t come to the church because of theology; they weren’t simply people who caved into a passing temptation. They weren’t people who showed up in church, listened to a sermon, and decided to become pedophiles because their victims would be silenced and they could get away with it. They knew how to find their way into situations where there were potential victims they could groom.
I am no fan of SGM. But the situations that have happened within SGM can happen in every church — I would even say they WILL happen in every church unless churches learn how to minimize access to children and teach everyone to be vigilant. What SGM did, however, was to further injure victims — yet similar heinous actions were the status quo for churches of any persuasion until the RCC scandals came to light. Churches covered up. Churches told victims to forgive and move on. Churches told victims it was their own fault. These heinous actions have been the norm for churches dealing with sexual abuse issues. One notable exception is the PCUSA church in Vienna, Virginia, which accepted total responsibility for a perp’s actions and their own inaction in spite of being told by the insurance company not to do it. However, it took something like a decade for their situation to come to light.
Pedophiles know that churches are filled with trusting people, so they infiltrate churches and can talk the walk with absolute perfection. The RCC priesthood is a high-risk group for pedophiles because priests are not expected to have sexual interests in adults.
Priests, teachers, coaches, pediatricians, Scout leaders, youth leaders, Big-Brother type participants all have easy access to children — these occupations are high risk for being chosen by pedophiles. On p. 229 of the above-referenced work, Dr. Anna Salter writes, “Any situation that provides ideal conditions for pedophiles will draw them, and it will be very difficult to distinguish them from their nonpedophilic and entirely moral colleagues. Look at any arrangement in which pedophiles will thrive, and you will find pedophiles.”
The priesthood is an ideal arrangement — priests are not expected to have adult sexual interests, so one of the prime things to look for in detecting/deflecting pedophiles is automatically overlooked. On p 228, Dr. Salter writes, “If he has no interest in adult sex, he is giving up nothing by “celibacy” and gaining a great deal; a socially acceptable excuse for having no adult love interests. In addition, the priesthood gives him an excuse for working with children as well as a position of great authority and guaranteed job security…”
If an adult involves himself in youth activities but has no children of his own or children of that age; if he has no adult friends or partners; if he focuses on activities with kids of a particular age — if he has never been married, if he does not date — he is someone to be concerned about, because he’s in a high-risk category. He may not be a pedophile, he should not be treated rudely or shunned, but common sense dictates that you don’t leave anyone alone with kids, especially someone who fits a high-risk profile.
You are absolutely right that poor theology and fearful coverups caused victims to be mistreated. Further, this mistreatment enabled pedophiles to feel safe because they knew victims would be ignored and situations swept under the rug. I hope you didn’t mean to say that theology encouraged people to be pedophiles or engage in pedophilic activity. If you are in any church that has children, it’s likely that a pedophile has considered it a target. They’re discouraged by organizations that have child-protection policies in place and a track record of reporting and prosecuting offenders.
And again, please read — I hope everyone who has been affected by the SGM scandals, the RCC scandals, the Jack Schaap & IFB scandals — any sex crime at all anywhere — truly, I hope everyone will read up on this subject. It may be the knowledge that prevents your child, your neigbor’s child, your grandchild, or your wife from being molested — we all need to know how to prevent and protect. Thanks.
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@ Bridget:
I also a 3 1/2 year old- programming is easier 🙂
However, to take the child example, let’s look at a case where my son misbehaves and I have the choice of how to respond it it. As a parent, I am not perfect at balancing consequence with mercy. Sometimes I allow him to get away with too much, and sometimes I punish him in ways and for reasons that don’t make things better. This is due to my lack of knowledge as a parent. If I were instead omniscient I could know exactly what the effects of all of my choices on him would be. So if I could anticipate that if I made choices xyz and he would become a bank robber, then I surely make different choices.
Now with children I suppose we could argue that even if we had all of the knowledge possible, we still could not prevent them from doing bad things- there is probably just no set of decisions that leads to a perfect child. A parent does not have that kind of influence. However, we can certainly look at big things like becoming a rapist. And if my son were to become a rapist no matter what I did, would I be moral bringing him into the world if I knew that ahead if time?
But really, I do understand that at some point my analogy is flawed- how God works is ultimately beyond my comprehension and all I can do is believe what I apprehend out of scripture. But this is why I am careful not to force people to defend their “logical conclusions”, because the logical conclusion no matter how I look at it under my logic makes God responsible for evil. I don’t believe that, so I accept God is beyond me. But again, I don’t see Calvinism as making God any more responsible for evil than Arminianism.
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@ Dana:
It’s also worth noting that when I say what I create works exactly the way I created it, I did not mean to say it works the way I intend!
It’s a joke that when people find a bug in the software I can say it “works as written”! The problem is, of course, that as a flawed human with limitations I create flawed stuff.
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@ Daisy: Let's say that you are standing near a street corner where a woman is about to be raped. You have a gun in your hand, you know how to use it, and you have no fear that you can prevent the rape without risk to yourself if you intervene, yet you chose to let the rape happen. What is your level of moral responsibility to the rape victim? Is it any consolation to the victim that you didn't put the gun to the rapists head and force him to do the deed? In either case you could have stopped the rape and it occurs because of you.
Sure in the case where you put a gun to the head of the rapist and force him you have now absolved him of guilt, but is your guilt any more than if all you did was merely prevent the act? And even if you look at these things on a sliding scale and say you are more responsible if you are holding a gun to the rapists head, can you say the scenario in which you merely hold back you are absolved of all moral responsibility? Even in the best light, the "he allows it" model of God's relationship to evil still makes him somewhat responsible, even if less so. And if it does, it is still an inadequate model to describe God, for a god can take no part in evil.
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Nickname
We followed a pedophile, Don Cameron, who was married and had biological and adopted kids.His children are estranged from him due to abuse from their childhood. His wife, a teacher, actually recommended him for a volunteer job in a school, knowing this history. He passed the background check because he had not yet been convicted. Talk about blending in. So,because he has kids, grandkids and a wife, he got a pass. He eventually got caught, went to jail for 8 months and then went right back to a new church where he eventually got into some unnamed trouble and was kicked out, once again.
You are so right. Pedophiles are smart as they stalk their prey and church leaders are dumb by thinking that a quick conversion and crocodile tears equals conversion.
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@ dee:
Off topic, sorry – Dee, I’m wondering if you’re getting my emails. I sent one Monday and yesterday.
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Dee / Nickname – agree on several fronts. I’m not aware of any evidence that theology (or any other ideology) breeds paedophiles, though it may encourage them.
Nickname – you’re right about confusing niceness (and/or other outward appearances) with trustworthiness. It’s instructive that Jesus taught us to know a tree by its fruit, not by our gut-feelings or spiritual (real or imagined) intuition about it – nor by the doctrine it professes.
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Numo/Anon 1 : am loving the conversation about Augustine & Plato…I need to know this stuff as I also see a lot of Greek thought being passed off as ‘biblical’, whereas if you graft New Testament terms onto Hebrew thought forms, rather than Greek ones, they look quite different, for example whether man ontolgically is a ‘soul’ or has a ‘soul’; is a unity, bi-partite or tri-partite…on & on. I’ve stayed away from Augustine because I already spend enough time under the bed:)
I wish you guys were local so we could hang out & discuss this stuff, I’d like Patrice to drop in too (you’re a very welcome voice here Patrice), so anytime you want to visit England, just call me!
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@ Jeff S: There is a bigger issue at stake here and that is the issue of free will. I do not believe that God forces us, against our will to follow Him, including changing our will so that we happy to follow. If He did so, we would be nothing more than Chatty Cathy doll-pull our string and we will say exactly what should say.
Just as you say that there are difficulties with Arminianism, I say there are also difficulties with Calvinism as well as with Arminianism.
I do not believe that men earn their salvation and there are some good guys like Roger Olson who go into this in depth. In this respect, Arminians and Calvinist agree. I sometimes become depressed when one side says that the other is guilty of earning their salvation. It is not true but so be it. The method and action of prevenient grace is the basis for the conflict.
I think we are all very much like the prodigal son.There is this wonderful life that we reject and we go off and roll in the pig pens. God puts in place certain stop gap measures. For example, I do not believe that mankind will every be destroyed due to an act of men. The sun still comes up each day, etc. But He allows us to experience the pig pen of our own making. He also allows us the joy of cleaning up our corner of the pig pen as we follow Him.
I get very weary of the claims that either side holds the key for interpretation of the Scripture. That includes that who claim that they really, really know the Scripture and that the others are the illegitimate children of the Scripture. They are dumb and are not serious students and should be pitied as the weaker brother.
Serious students of the Scripture have also brought us slavery, discrimination against Jews, colonialism, dominionism, reconstructionism, and a belief that the sun revolved around the earth which resulted in jail time for Galileo. Serious students of Scripture believe that women can not read Scripture from the pulpit and *know*that tornadoes are sent to destroy churches that allow gay pastors. (How about knowing that God sends tornadoes to churches that advocate that women get smacked around for a night or ones that blow off pedophilia?)
Many who comes to this blog love the Lord and Scripture. For me, there are difficulties with both sides of the equation. Serious students of the Scripture deeply disagree on this matter and have for a long, long time. Instead of pretending that one side is right, I say that both sides have elements of truth and elements of error.
If this understanding was essential to our lives as Christians, I believe that God would have prompted the Holy Spirit to clear this one up, just as He made clear the Resurrection. When I see men and women of good faith, who love the Lord, disagree on this matter, I think it is because it is not clear. What that means to me is that this is something we will understand more fully in heaven. Even then, we may not fully understand because He is the creator and we will still be the created.
That does not mean we should stop exploring Scripture and pondering these things. Most everyone on this blog does so .God knows i do. One day I am sure i have it figured out and the next I realize I do not. I do not believe, during our time on this earth, that we will fully comprehend these matters, no matter how certain we all are.
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@ Marge Sweigart:
I replied last night. Did you not see it? Oh no! It is a go for tomorrow. This same thing happened with an estimate for some yard work. I will have GBTC check this out.
Call on my TWW phone line 919-792-8632.
I am so sorry.
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@ Nickname:
I have just ordered this book – thanks for the recommendation. Very useful for my work as a youth worker.
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@ dee:I just sent another email. Please call.
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Jeff S. Don’t you think God created us to think for ourselves. It was part of his plan.
There are many smart and educated people who post here. I am neither, but when I watched HOMERS ODYSSEY on PBS, it had alot of correlations, in my opinion, to the Old Testament. Some posting here sound like they probably have studied it. What do you know about this?
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@ dee:
I understand and I agree with most of what you say. My point here was directly about the concept of making God responsible for evil and my caution about blaming Calvinists for doing this, when I think Arminianism does not offer a better solution to this problem. In fact, I was trying to say that BOTH sides have an issue with this, not that only Arminianism is problematic. Or to say it another way, if someone is to convince me that Calvinism is in error, it won’t be on the basis of making God responsible for evil because the alternative doesn’t solve that problem.
I started in this thread to caution about making statements against logical conclusions as opposed to what people actually state they believe. If a person wants to argue against the idea that God chooses who is saved and who isn’t, that is a good discussion to have with a Calvinist, because that is something that every Calvinist believes (and something non-Calvinists object to). If you want to argue that Calvinists make God the author of evil based on a logical extension of their beliefs, in my opinion that is not a constructive conversation.
I sincerely hope that I have not ever come accross as one who thinks that everyone must believe as I do or that I hold the key to understanding scripture. My belief comes from my understanding of scripture and I undestand that others come to other conclusions. I have no problem with that (remember, I am currently dating an Arminian!)- but I don’t feel a need to change what I believe either because others have different conclusions.
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turtle wrote:
Yes.
I don’t know much at all about the Odyssey.
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I don’t understand why we have to be involved with calling ourselves after any man. Calling ourselves christians, it think, should be enough.
WWJD should be our calling card. This is in rebellion to CJ who railed against it.
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@ turtle:
To be clear, I am not a follower of Calvin. I only use the term “Calvinism” because it is the label given to a set of beliefs (mainly the 5 points) that I think the scripture teaches. And to be completely honest, it’s really only 4 points and I assent to Limited Atonement depending on how it is defined, but don’t really think scripture is that concerned with it anyway.
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Challies is taking on the “discernment bloggers” today. Get ready for some fireworks. http://www.challies.com/articles/in-the-crosshairs-of-the-discernment-bloggers
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Challies needs to stand in front of a mirror.
He says this:
Where is his alarm about SGM? He knows about it. I’ve tweeted to him enough about it that he has me blocked. (BTW, Challies does “discernment” articles, too.)
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Julie Anne wrote:
I’m not certain we can find someone he will trust.
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Julie Anne and Marge, Challies has justified his reign as blog ruling king. Let him have his chalice and rule away;-)
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On the one hand, TGC has lost all credibility with me and most other thinking people through this whole thing. There is a thunderous, crashing cognitive dissonance when men like Mohler spend their public platform to damn Penn State, and then whistle past the graveyard when one of “their guys” is indicted. On the other hand, I am glad this happened, because it revealed the naked emperor to anyone with a shred of discernment.
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@ Marge Sweigart: It is really quite simple. Challies claimed he was “objective.” A commenter on the White Horse Inn disagreed. We saw it and researched it, using links to shore up our thoughts.
The day after we first wrote, Challies reviewed a book and admitted that it was one published by his publishing company. That is what needs to be done. Enough of the good old boy network. Let’s have some ethics that are at least as strong as the secular world.
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Dee – Did you notice the use of the word “crosshairs” in his title – the same word you used http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/03/04/tim-challies-cruciform-press-in-our-cross-hairs/
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Dee and Deb –
Did you guys claim the “discernment blog” title or was that a name given to you? That term is used alot but I’m not sure why and “who” decided “which” blogs are in that category? It all seems quite vague and arbitrary.
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@ Jeff S:
God “allows evil” because He/She runs the show, right? But that doesn’t mean He/She “takes part in it”. It doesn’t necessarily follow that there is complicity. God is different than a mother who doesn’t step in when her husband (or brother, etc) abuses her child. Because God has a Grand Plan.
We each need to make a story about it, to explain it to ourselves. The easiest way for me to understand it (being an artist) is to see God as the extraordinary genius who poured Him/Herself into a masterpiece. God brought life into it and set the piece into action via the tools of time and interaction. He/She gave some elements in the piece the ability for willing action, and to live eternally.
Then, God hung it up on the broad wall of galactic space and watched.
Things went wrong fairly quickly but He/She knew it would. (Evil was around before He/She started the piece.) In fact, God factored it in from the beginning because He/She wanted a masterpiece that would grow and eventually be able to have a relationship with Him/Her. But a relationship with creatures naïve of good and evil would be extremely limited and dull. He/She wanted the masterpiece to freely and with full-knowledge, choose all Goodness. (Just as we want our friends to freely choose us. If friendships are hoisted on us, the relationship is not a friendship.)
God preferred that our education and choice be done without having to experience evil–I’m sure He/She had some great ideas about how that could have been done, but we were small and silly and Evil tempted us “to be like God”. And God, being astonishingly huge and complex, accepted it even though He/She was repelled by the damage. But God would keep to the original goals. Of course! He/She knew this would happen, and included it in the grand plan for a masterpiece that would be able to have genuine relationship with Him/Her.
In order for His/Her goals to be accomplished, God planned to go into the masterpiece (become an element in it!), to correct the burgeoning evil from the inside. And He/She did. Meanwhile God remains hard at work on the piece, remaking the pieces/parts even as Evil rampages through. In that sense, God is still making His/Her masterpiece. We are still in the sixth day. Nothing will be lost, all will be made useful.
And when the final finishing touch has been completed, God will have a masterpiece greater than the one He/She first hung on the wall of galactic space gallery, one that is fully capable of being in an interesting relationship with Him/Her, which was God’s intention all along.
That is the story I use.
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@ Julie Anne: I did. It’s funny. He will say that no one knows who he is talking about but everyone knows. Its OK. I think that it is time that this be discussed. The day after that post, Challies reviewed a book and admitted it was from his press.I liked that. He should always do that.
In fact, he should consider not reviewing any books from which he receives any financial benefit or is written by someone who he considers a good friend if claims objectivity. Now, if he does not claim objectivity, that is another thing all together.
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Bridget – I wonder if he and Jared Moore who compiled the 250 best Christian blogs have been talking. There seemed to be a lot of hoopla regarding that word: discernment blogs. Jared said he would not include discernment blogs in his next release of the 250 best Christian blogs. @ Bridget:
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@ Jeff S:He will say that AoR, who screwed this whole thing up, was the objective outside group. AoR cannot be fully objective if they must market to the leadership of a church in order to be hired to evaluate a conflict. This system is not conducive to true exploration. In fact, had they done due diligence, IMO, the lawsuit would not have happened.
Then he will say it is left to the courts. Now, see what appealing to the courts did for Paul. He died which means that the courts are not objective either. In fact, I find it rather amusing when certain leaders say that the courts will decide this since it is a God given institution. By that reasoning, we should say that Paul did not die a martyr but was justly executed. Obviously, we have a problem.
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@ Bridget:
RC Sproul Jr coined the term in this post.
http://mikecorley.org/2012/05/07/apprising-ministriessproul-jr-condemns-discernment-blogs/
It was another boring article that affirms that leaders are cool and should never be critiqued. So, of course, TGC and others have glommed onto that word and now use it as a negative. Get ready, some will be accusing us of being the new Pharisees, attempting to divert attention from themselves.
However, so what? Let them go at us mano a mano. If we are wrong, show us. We can take it.
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@ Julie Anne:This particular post was a “discernment” post.
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@ dee:
You have to love the irony of writing a blog post to warn people about the content on blogs that warn people about content on blogs.
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Thanks, Marge for the “heads up” about Challies.
Some quick observations: 1) He writes this near the end: “If a well-known ministry is teaching heresy and leading people to hell or systemically promoting or allowing abuse of children, I am certain we can find someone to do a real and honest investigation, to verify the facts, to talk to the people involved, and to determine if this is the case. If it is, I will join in sounding the alarm.” I don’t think a comment is necessary here.
2) He doesn’t say which of his posts got all the criticism. Typical of his vagueness. One commenter felt guilty about wanting to know which post it was. Others are happy about their ignorance.
3) At the end, he says that he will no longer read “watchbloggers,” and he urges others not to read them also. What a surprise.
4) He makes a good point about some people presuming that they know exactly what he thinks about something. But in one of his comments, he writes this: “I think a distinguishing characteristic of discernment bloggers is their proactive ‘discernment’–they go looking for people and ministries to discern and debunk. Not only that, but they go looking primarily within the ranks of people who love the gospel, not outside of it.” Quite a presumption, I would say.
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@ Patrice:
Patrice –
The whole issue with evil and when it began and “where” it roams and attempts to rule (apart from God in my book) is something that is often left out of certain theological conversations. It’s as if there is just God and man and no “principalities” of this world that need defeating. Men and women chose evil over good (bad move but not the first to choose this way), hence the entrance of our Lord, Jesus Christ. But the ruler of this world is often ignored (convenient for him in the long run I suppose). We end up with man against God (because God contols evil??), instead of men/woman WITH God against the principalities of this world, which our Lord has defeated.
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Challies has more love for Mahaney than the victims. How do we know? Can we read his mind? Of course not. We can read his words and the obvious lack of words when it comes to Mahaney and the Reformed leaders. As long as these guys can keep folks thinking it is NOT ok to watch actions and words (or lack of them) then they define what is sin or gossip.
They are just not happy about being questioned and analyzed. Well it is quite simple….stop being a public figure and seeking readers, followers, etc. Stop making ministry your income stream. And it will all go away.
The more Challies tries to act “above it all” and “discerning” the less he comes off that way but more like making excuses for what is obvious: His pal Mahaney and his cult protected child molesters.
Now,either that is ok with Challies or it isn’t. His words and actions have communicated that he does not much care about those molested, raped and beaten under that cult groupthink.
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@ Julie Anne:
lol Oooh a hint as to whom he was referring! He did not mention names in his post, so his poor readers are rather left in the lurch as to who not to read because of the horrendous result it would have on one’s spiritual life….supposedly.
Not to worry Dee/Deb/TWW great commenters–you have helped me so much you will never know. All of you.
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What concerns me are all the thousands of young men whose hearts have been hardend being around these men and their teaching and then they emulate how they think in churches all over. It is frightening. I have seen a bit of the fallout.
Mahaney (Reformed doctrine) is more important than molested children. That is the bottomline for them but they have to make it a SIN for you to mention the truth…..
Just like Mahaney taught at SGM! They are now doing the same thing as a movement!
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@ Jeff S: There is much irony. I am kind of glad he is doing this. It gets it out in the open. He disapproves.
It is obvious he is discussing with words such as “crosshairs” and “watchbloggers.”
Bottom line: Everyone has an obligation to reveal friendships and business relationships, especially if there is a claim to objectivity.
When my husband presents a paper at a national meeting, he must, at the start, reveal any business relationship in terms of money given for research, speeches, travel, etc. He must also reveal personal relationships involved in the process.
Part of the problem with the good old boy network is that we tend to “trust’ our friends. When we see book endorsements given by the same people, over and over again, there is a bit of concern that we might be in a “bless me” club.
Finally, yes there are people who do not communicate in the same we do in our nice churches. We are the nicest of sinner. I believe it is vital for those inside the church to hear what those outside the church are saying. And they don’t always say like me might inside the church.
So, attack my language since I am, for better or worse, inside the church.
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@ Diane: I just want people to think. So many were caught in churches that did not allow questioning of pastors’ incomes, conferences, theology. It was put up the cash, shut up or get put out.
I think we all can do better. Let’s be open.Let’s talk to our churches about money and how it is used. let’s talk to the church about friendships and let those alliances be questioned. Pastors, just like the rest of us, are fallible and can get sucked into the same old same old.
Tomorrow i will do a post on Steven Furtick and how he plans to control information. It actually fits right into this topic nicely.
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@ JeffB: I wish he could see our email stream from people telling us their stories and asking us to look at some situations. Go looking? I don’t need to. It comes to us.
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Anon 1 wrote:
“Five Kings ruled o’er the Amorite,
Mighty as fear and old as night;
Swathed with unguent and gold and jewel,
Waxed they merry and fat and cruel…
“These five Kings said one to another,
‘King unto King o’er the world is brother…'”
— G.K.Chesterton, “Ballad of the Battle of Gibeon”
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Anon 1 wrote:
Purity of Ideology.
And the Ideologically Pure Omelet requires smashing a lot of eggs.
Just ask any survivor of Cambodia’s Killing Fields.
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Julie Anne,
"Crosshairs" was a dead giveaway. There is no question which blog Tim Challies is talking about. Some of his commenters appear to be clueless about which 'discernment blogs' he is calling out. Perhaps someone will clue them in. I wonder if he will allow the comment…
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@ Deb:This reminds me of another meltdown….
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@ dee: Do not claim objectivity and then expect people to give your business life a pass. There is nothing wrong with any of it unless you do not disclose it loud and clear.
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Hester wrote:
Their theology is a textbook example of a Grievance Culture — a culture whose only reason for existence is Revenge on the Other. Other textbook examples are the original Ku Klux Klan, the Nazi Party, al-Qaeda, Raza Boys, Afrocentrists, and Hamas. And to some extent the Communists, Objectivists, and the appeal of Left Behind.
The three core axioms of a Grievance Culture’s mythology are:
1) Once WE were Lords of All Creation, and Everything was Perfect.
2) Then THEY came and took it all away from us.
3) IT’S PAYBACK TIME!
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@ Beakerj:
Thanks BeakerJ. If I ever find a way to drag my sorry bones across the Atlantic, I’ll be delighted to take you up on your generous offer. How much fun that would be!
And if you come to the US and experience a forlorn and irrational desire to roam the wild streets of Detroit, mi casa su casa. We have a very nice MI beer, Bells Two-hearted which I’d love for you to try.
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Eagle wrote:
Funny; outside of Soveriegn Grace everyone I ask about it says “It’s KINKY.”
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I don’t even want to read his article at this point. I’ve probably read the same nonsense at the SGM blog. It is interesting to note that all the people who officially wrote at the SGM blog in the past two years have “resigned” any SGM positions they formerly held. Hmmm. . . .
Anon 1 –
Yes. Many Gospel Coalition bloggers are behaving the same way that SGM behaved when they received criticism. If the shoe fits . . . Most of them only want a platform to tell people what to think. Very few want to interact with people.
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@ Anon 1:
And, relating this to your comment, this comment from his post says it all…
Amy:
“Tim IS my discernment blogger!”
No…the Holy Spirit gives us discernemt…not a man.
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@ dee:
One thing seems sure, they must all be reading Sproul, Jr., and I’m not sure if he is someone to glean wisdom from. Hopefully they don’t take up any other habits of his.
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@ Bridget:To make it worse, they delete any comments that are not “edifying.” It is rather ridiculous to read posts in which everyone says “atta boy.”
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@ Jeff S:
No kidding 🙂
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@ Diane: LOL I saw that as well. Recalls a certain Scripture “I am of Paul; I am of Peter.”
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@ Bridget: Throw in Doug Wilson and we really have something to be concerned about.
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It is interesting that Challies agrees with a commenter who says the watchbloggers promote fear. Whose fear? Because of these blogs, many people have found places where fear can finally be set aside.
The fear must be his own. It is not necessarily a bad thing for leaders to have a healthy respect for membership and a limit on their capacity. Someone (don’t remember who, among the political blogs I read) wrote recently that it is important for government to fear the citizenry rather than the citizenry fear government and that’s why we have the Bill of Rights, a document that limits the power of gov’t. Perhaps we need a Bill of Rights for the Christian community.
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@ JeffB:
“Not only that, but they go looking primarily within the ranks of people who love the gospel, not outside of it.”
Isn’t that what “judgment begins at the household of God” means? And discerning the theology of non-Christians is kind of a duh, isn’t it? “They don’t believe in Jesus. The end.” Does Challies want us to state the obvious over and over again while refusing to expose problems in the church?
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Dee wrote~
“It was put up the cash, shut up or get put out.”
AKA: Stay, Pay and Obey… (should one prefer a gospel rhyme).
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Bridget wrote:
Funny thing you just mentioned RC Sproul, Jr. He just tweeted Challies’ article and I tagged @Wartwatch – lol and Retweeted.
If anyone comments on Challies blog, don’t forget to take a screenshot. Instructions below:
If you don’t know how to, don’t worry. It’s easy:
* How to take a screenshot on a Mac:http://guides.macrumors.com/Taking_Screenshots_in_Mac_OS_X
* How to take a screenshot on a PC:http://graphicssoft.about.com/cs/general/ht/winscreenshot.htm
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H@ dee:
I’m pretty sure a communist regime would do the same thing. They would find no need to acknowledge that you had anything to offer to their world unless you first submitted to their authority. What to do with those $@&* rebels, or is that “questioners?” They must be one and the same? . . . such discernment they have!!
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@ Diane: And if you think the pastor is wrong-get out and don’t say a word.
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@ Patrice:
“The fear must be his own.”
Truer words never spoken, imo.
I have observed he writes with some degree of frequency about sin. I believe he is afraid of/obsessed with sin….like every good SGMer. He only recently found out last year he had “The Hidden Sin Of Envy”.
Either he purposefully writes with a dramatic woe is me flair, or he truly expected his readers to believe he had no idea he was envious. Silly, sin sniffing (to use an SGM phrase) articles like that lower his credibility. But his loyal fans drink it up and praise his sound discernment for discerning that, at middle age, he indeed has the sin of envy.
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@ Diane: Make sure everyone is aware that, at the root of this whole thing, is SGM.
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@ dee:
We need to find a word for this that rhymes with A and add it to the gospel rhyme.
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@ numo:
numo — you have amazing knowledge. I know you’ve studied art history — what other fields of history have you focused on?
I love history, too — as an example of my dorkness, as a hobby i’ve been putting together a world/earth history timeline for the last few months (choosing the most reputable sources for dates/data).
My whole life i’ve been telescoped in on the middle east as the sum total of what was happening on earth from roughly 4000 BC – AD 1. Part of my church detox has been the freedom to acknowledge the rest of the world. And to explore what was happening on the planet during this time, as well as long before. Absolutely fascinating.
Some of the most intriguing to me:
* 11,500 BC — North America: Clovis Culture appears;
* 10,500 BC — Japan: Jomon culture appears;
* 4500 BC — England: farming techniques introduced;
* 4000 or so — Genesis’ Adam & Eve
* 3500 BC — South America: America’s first urban center, Norte Chico (at least 25 cities);
* Stonehenge precedes Genesis’ Noah…
I’m sure I’m setting myself for ridicule from all sides.
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@ elastigirl: Hey, I love it! (Especially the part about the Jomon culture; they made some pretty cool ceramic sculptures.)
As far as my formal education, well: studio art in undergrad and art history in grad school. Art history is also cultural and religious history (even economic and military history), since art isn’t created in a vacuum.
History of religion is *very* important per art history, no matter whose art you’re studying.
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@ elastigirl: Just curious as to where you’re getting the date for Adam & Eve? Is it from historical sources on the text, or is it from … ?
enquiring minds and all that! 😀
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@ dee:
Yes. He is, of course, an SGM supporter, and not impartial. I have posted this before. His church maintains “a close association” with an SGM church in Toronto, among others. You can find that under affiliations. What that “close association” means one can only guess.
http://www.gfcto.com/about/affiliations
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“Some of their commenters were crying out for people to hack my site and destroy it. A few were expressing themselves in profanity and threats of physical violence..”
Has anyone on this site screamed to hack or been profane (contempt for the sacred), or threatened to beat Challies up? I’ve not scrupulously read through every thread here but I’ve not seen it. I’m inclined to think he is “exaggerating for effect” which a few paragraphs later he accuses watchbloggers of doing (carnival mirror thingie). As he writes, “…a Christian who is committed to speaking truth in love will feel at least some obligation to confirm whether details are true.”
“They are the playground bullies of the Internet, shaking their fists and demanding your lunch money; if you give it to them you go hungry, if you don’t give it to them, you get your head shoved in a toilet.”
Fail—watchbloggers do not run the playground; he and his pastor friends do. But but but watchbloggers took his lunch and now he’s hungryhungryhungry! And when he stood up to them, a plane flew over his house and dropped a load of manure! He could maybe call them snipers but to maintain integrity, he’d still need to back up the accusation.
I’ve not read Challie’s blog until this post. The topic isn’t thought through intelligently. He is as mean as what he accuses others of being. Then he encourages shunning.
It’s humbuggery. Bah
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@ Patrice: I think he gets upset with bad words. His blog attracts nice people who agree with his paradigm. He deletes comments that are disagreeable. I know, we have screen shots that are sent to us.
We decided that this was going to be a blog for all people, including those outside the church. Therefore we expect some profanity, etc. We do not allow people to directly threaten a person or outright lie with no proof. For example, we had one commenter who claimed that SGM was laundering money. We banned this person from the blog.
We have only banned about 5-6 people in 4 years. And for a couple of those, we allowed them to come back after giving it a rest. Redemption and all that. However, I want to hear the hard stuff. We have allowed comments that have called us names, etc. We are big girls and can take it.
So think sort of thing is rather mild. Watchbloggers and discernment blogs: We have been called worse, that’s for sure.
The church needs to hear this stuff. They isolate themselves from criticism and then claim to lecture others on how to criticize.
In the end, I believe that much of this is about the silence of the leaders on SGM and also silence on money.
Since most in this dialogue believe that God is sovereign, this means that this conversation is sovereignly ordained. So, let’s see what God wants to do with it.
When I was a kid, i was painfully shy. I find it rather amusing to be compared to a playground bully.
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@ Diane: Its about SGM, money and transparency. Wait until my post tomorrow about transparency.
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@ Patrice:
“Some of their commenters were crying out for people to hack my site and destroy it. A few were expressing themselves in profanity and threats of physical violence.”
I don’t remember anyone even suggesting (let alone demanding) D&D hack/destroy Challies’ site. Granted, he may be talking about a different blog and I haven’t read his article (don’t really care to either as I have to play handbells and make Mexican chorizo sausage today which are both much more interesting). I’ve read the arguments against discernment blogs before and, in general, I decided I disagree with them a long time ago. I haven’t yet found anything to change my mind.
Granted, it is important to distinguish between legitimate blogs that report credible information (like TWW) and crazy sites, but in my experience that’s usually pretty easy to do. Animated pulpit-pounding preacher clipart and 72-point bold red Comic Sans on clashing wallpaper are good starting points. : )
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Patrice wrote:
AKA Circle the wagons — PERSECUTION! PERSECUTION! “BLESSED ARE YE WHO ARE PERSECUTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS’ SAKE! ALL WHO LIVE GODLY (and GOSPELLY!) IN CHRIST JESUS SHALL SUFFER PERSECUTION! etc…
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Justin Taylor now blocked me when I responded to his tweet. I should be keeping a list.
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Dee – you’re such a bully.
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@ dee:
“I wish he could see our email stream from people telling us their stories and asking us to look at some situations. Go looking? I don’t need to. It comes to us.”
Good point.
@ Diane:
Yes, but Tim wrote a BOOK about discernment, so he really knows. Like Mahaney and humility.
@ Hester:
“Not only that, but they go looking primarily within the ranks of people who love the gospel, not outside of it.”
Once again, the use of the word “gospel” as a sort of magical incantation that can’t be criticized.
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Jeff S wrote:
Godspeed Jeff! And may the Almighty guard your path from all harm. Would that we all learn tolerance for the “other”. Intolerance leads to the dark side where there is misery and suffering. It causes escalation from simple garden variety acrimony to blowing up each others Mosques so to speak.
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dee wrote:
The light sentence of 8 months is mind-boggling to begin with. I remember seeing the Don Cameron story on the news when it first broke, and your coverage of it as well. As more judges, attorneys, jurors, lawmakers, and the public-at-large become more aware of the body of knowledge now available about pedophiles, I hope the laws and courts will tighten up, and that the public will become just as savvy as the perps.
Reading Anna Salter’s book (Pedophiles (et al)…) opened my eyes and explained many things. I also read Christa Brown’s book, “This Little Light”, about her horrid experience of molestation by a youth pastor many years ago. Currently, I have a lifelong friend who is trying to figure out if her husband is indeed guilty of molestation charges. I sent an email to GRACE asking for materials that would help us to find out if his behavior fit any kind of profiles, and Mr. Tchividjian was kind enough to respond almost immediately with the recommendation of these two books. They have had a huge impact on me. Many of you have already read them, and seen the GRACE videos. When it comes to pedophiles and other criminal molesters, our eyes need to be opened. As with Don Cameron, most are wolves in sheep’s clothing. Stranger danger is but a miniscule part of this puzzle. Thanks, Dee and Deb, for being a huge part of getting it solved.
Pedophiles will likely always be around, but opportunities for them to offend do not have to be plentiful.
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FYI – I was contacted by Jared Moore on Twitter and he has informed me that he and Challies have not spoken and also they do not know each other. (Above I had commented that I wondered if he and Challies had spoken because they both used the phrase “discernment blogs” and I noticed they were both used within a short time frame.)
I’m glad Jared contacted me to let me know. He seems to be bothered that I am connecting dots that he claims are not there. We have exchanged contact info and maybe we get some better understanding of each other. I hope so.
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I wonder if he really will do what he says he’s going to do and refrain from checking out the response to his post here? And what excuse he would use if caught doing just that? I have to say that the people who won’t come here now (or to Spiritual Sounding Board or FBC Jax Watchdog or to SGM Survivors… if they can figure out where not to come) are the ones who wouldn’t have anyway and who have had their sanctimony affirmed. How many people will get the clue and google “crosshairs”?
How many will check TWW out to see what caused his tantrum?
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@ Eagle:
Stated simply, the “Problem of Evil” exists even without the Piper-esque notion of “Soverignty”- this is the point I’ve been trying to get across.
Ask Fendral the next time he’s around these parts- he’ll the “Problem of Evil” as an issue for him, and God’s “Soverignty” is not on his radar (at least, if I recall previous discussions with him correctly).
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@ dee:
I’ve come to enjoy rough-and-tumble arguments. It can be done without attacking the person and it is a great way to correct, broaden and hone one’s understanding. Compared to commenters on, for eg, Naked Capitalism or Glenn Greenwald at the Guardian, TWW is all kindness.
It is odd to me how much US Christianity prizes its culture of Nice and G-ratings. Yet, the commenters under this Challies post are not really nice at all–they are supercilious and breathe distaste and judgment. There’s a scrambling for position which includes frequent syrupy toadying up to Challies. They are less generous than the regular commenters from above-mentioned sites. Their criticism is backhanded, underhanded and twice as mean, but without vulgarity. (Take Gavin, for eg.)
When a blogger thinks it’s his right/responsibility to delete comments that disagree with him, I suppose he might assume that every comment he reads under another’s post is approved messaging. But that makes me laugh.
You two do fine and that’s not syrupy toadyism, lol
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Julie Anne wrote:
That’s good – I left a comment on Jared’s blog in reply to Gavin calling TWW anti-christian. I said Deb & Dee were open to criticism & to ask if he had questions – this is good that he’s communicating because it will show him that those who comment here are not dishonest.
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Patrice wrote:
That’s a good point, Patrice… I’ve shared TWW articles before with people in my peer group, and have received shocked and appalled messages “They let ATHEISTS comment!!! And someone used a swear word!!!! Heaven help us!!!”
I love TWW’s comment section. I like being challenged, and exposed to other ways of thinking.
Challies & others who surround themselves with “Yes” men are, in my opinion, boring. Boring & cowardly. That’s just my opinion, though, I’m not a representative of the entire Wartburg Watch community! 😉
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@ Phoenix: Judging by an uptick on clicks, there are some quietly checking it out. I say to look at as many blogs as you can. The more info, the better.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Oh, yeah, that persecution meme. I hear it even from a Roman Catholic who has a radio show. These people have nooooo idea what it means and yet they need it in order to feel real. Or something. Sooo weird!
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Dee – I may or may not have tweeted a link to your recent Challies post on Twitter.
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@ JeffB:
“Not everyone who says to me, “Gospelly, Gospelly” shall enter the kingdom of heaven.”
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@ Patrice: I think one needs a tough skin to see what people really say about her/him. I sometimes have to take a deep breath when I read some comments or emails. In the end, I want to hear what people really think about me instead of a cleaned up version.
There is something humbling that happens when you read a comment that doesn’t think you are correct and even thinks that you an idiot. You grow through the process.
I do get a bit of giggle on other blogs in which it is clear that there is someone trying to get noticed by their idol. They use their full names and go on and on about the author’s magnificent insight. They sound like a suck up.
Thankfully, Deb and I are out of the mainstream and are looked down upon as busybodies. No one here is trying to suck up since we have little to offer besides our thoughts. In fact, for some, it might be a net negative to admit to their true identity. Many have been deeply hurt by the “gospel” brigade.
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@ Julie Anne: Oh dear. Well, they better understand the bottom line. Just admit to your relationships, personal and financial. It is not that hard unless you are trying to hide something.
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@ Searching:Wouldn’t you get tired of people saying how wonderful you are all the time? Or might you start to believe your own press? I like to be challenged.
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Rachel Held Evans’ post today has come at the right time:
http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/when-it-comes-to-controversy-avoid-these-two-extremes
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@ numo:
numo — i got it from http://www.biblestudy.org/beginner/timelineot.html. I’m afraid i didn’t take the time to verify this — I assume they worked this out by going backwards with the data in the OT (so & so lived so many years, so & so reigned so many years, etc.). Not that I necessarily consider OT dates to be historical facts. I mostly wanted to compare OT information with other information from archaeology, paleontology, etc. and the most current data & perspectives in these fields.
My timeline is something I’ll modify as I get better information, and have time to dig deeper into it all. It’s just for my own curiosity. But it’s been very illuminating & thought-provoking.
Please pardon my tangent here.
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Well, good golly – Challies closed the comments on his blog post. What a shock.
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Having been a member of the happiest place on earth (clc) for 30 plus years, during which I have been traumatized. To read that Challies post and then some comments, almost took my breath away, or I felt like I couldn’t breathe, that people can say some of the things they do. It’s shocking. But when I first started reading here I was afraid of going to hell because of reading here. After awhile I felt the fear start to leave and a more real love for God come.
Dee and Deb your hitting a nerve. Thanks for you two.
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Marge Sweigart wrote:
This made me laugh out loud. 😀 What a shock, indeed!
I guess it’s true what they say, a leopard can’t change his spots.
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Marge
LOL!!!
If you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen!
Oh, that’s right. The manly Calvinistas likely don’t do domestic work. They’re too busy writing books, speaking at conferences, and telling the rest of us how to live ‘biblically’. 😉
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Blazing Idolatry N’ Da Spiritual Hacks?
HowDee,
hmmm…
The ‘spiritual buck’ does not stop with the illustrious JohnnyC.
What? (it Getz bedda…)
The spiritual buck stops with :
J_ _ _ _ C_ _ _ _ _
(fill in da blanks)
Kind folks, ASK…rain from the Lord of the harvest, in the season of the spring rain, it is He who makes the storm clouds, and gives the showers of rain, to everyone!
(grin)
P.S. on evil: God made everything and every budy perfect (1) when da all sang in unison. (2) when He breathed into the dust of the ground. Can He help it they all became raging teenagers, stealing da keys ta His proverbial T-Bird?
fun, fun, fun…
hmmm…
For God, ‘eternal life’ is kinda messy.
But his ‘kids’ are worth it.
Cheeeeeeeeese!
>-((S“㋡”py((º>™
—
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@ turtle:
turtle
This is all about your “former happiest place on earth.” Far too many people jumped in bed with SGM and did not do their homework. SGM was supposed to be the lynchpin of a movement. But, they were not what they were presented to be.
It is time that some people take a step back and see what is going on. The charges keep building in the SGM suit and even I, who thought this was just stupid, arrogant men preaching stupid theology, am beginning to think there is something more sinister behind all of this.
Many of these guys jumped on the SGM bandwagon and are now trapped by their comments which they do not disavow. These comments prove that these guys are not the “discerners” they set themselves out to be. That includes Al Mohler who chastised those who were telling their stories as dissenters who did not like “strong” leadership. That is just plain wrong and exposes his general lack of engagement in the story. It ‘s all about authority to these guys.
We hit a nerve. So does Kris at SGM Survivors. Challies let the comment stand over there. If that doesn’t speak to the root of this matter, i do not know what does.
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@ Searching: He does tend to close comments when it hits round 100. He claims that any comments after 100 usually spell trouble. I would disagree. Anything above 100 comments usually means that this is a hot subject and is of interest to the readers.
Since this was posted in the AM, most working people cannot comment which means he misses out on a very large population base.
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Beakerj wrote:
Totally agree with this. I think Plato is necessary to read though to understand where a lot of thinking comes from….. but I stop when it comes to God and man.
There is a great article written long before the internet by R.K. McGregor Wright on the Greek “chain of being”. Wish I could find it but it goes into some of this Greek philosophy stuff and the problems it brings for interpreting scripture.
Would LOVE to discuss over some nice dinner and wine. I will get you a nite light. :o)
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PS
Dee will keep reading Challies, Doug Wilson and every other blogger in that category. I learn from those who think differently than I think.
Oh yeah, one comment on the comment about bloggers like us being “busybodies.” Does that also apply to guys who make fat jokes about people singing the National Anthem? Or is that gospel joking?
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dee wrote:
but SGM did not want the courts/civil authorities to be involved in the child molestations at SGM as they taught the church should handle it. Interesting, eh?
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Julie Anne wrote:
Julie Ann, You are fast becoming the most blocked twitterer in tweet history!
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@ dee:
He may need help from the resident statistician, Jared Moore, to figure out “when” most people have time to post 😉 It’s possible he’s building a readership of stay at home moms and pastors. Maybe that’s his target groups!?
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Diane wrote:
Diane, this sort of things breaks my heart. Is this what 2000 years of Christianity has brought us? Looking to a mere human blogger she probably does not even personally know for…..discernment? How come she does not know that she is to continually pray and God will give her the pure wisdom from above. (James)
Because her idols have not bothered to tell her NOT to look to them for discernment. Which is why they are idols.
Has no one told her this or showed her? There are thousands and thousands of people like her out there looking to a mere human for discernment. Many are young pastors in a church near you!
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Kris @ sgmsurvivors.com just posted an awesome response to Mr. Challies:
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2013/04/03/tim-challies-has-no-room-for-discernment-bloggers/
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dee wrote:
Just remind them that in order to qualify as a “Pharisee” you have to be a religious “leader” of your time. Ministry as a career is a qualifier.
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Julie Anne @spiritualsoundingboard.com also posted a wonderful, direct response to Challies:
http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/04/03/challies-rails-against-discernment-bloggers-fear-of-truth-exposed/
P.S. I am very suspicious of any person that would tell me NOT to read something! I am an adult Christian of over 30 years and Mr. Challies is telling me DON’T READ certain blogs?? That should raise a “red flag”…
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Eagle wrote:
Do you have any idea how many convos I have had with such types who plainly tell me I did not hear or read what I most assuredly heard and read? They are under a delusion and reinterpret what they hear to match their paradigm of their leader.
I mean, it is uncanny. Like a mass delusion. Al Mohler did not say what he actually said in his GC video. He really meant something else entirely I just did not understand. I could give example after example. I have never in all my life seen such mass delusion as I have in this movement. (Perhaps you have since you were around Mormons) But this is new to me. If one is not sure of themselves they can believe they really did not hear what they heard! The key is believing it makes others believe it, too. Lots of folks out there not thinking for themsevles but working hard to prop up their idols.
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dee wrote:
This does not negate your point, but as I undertand it (and maybe I am wrong), early church history tells us that Paul was exonerated of the charges when he appealed to Rome. He was released, did further missions, and was later re-captured and executed. I have no source for this, but it has been my understanding of Pauls timeline.
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@ Anon 1:
Well also it doesn’t MATTER what he meant by “smack” if women trying to follow his teaching misunderstand him and stay in abusive marriages that end up hurting them. As a teacher, the responsibility is on him to clearly teach.
People don’t get that this video was not some ivory tower pontification on solving the “puzzle” of domestice abuse. Women will listen to this stuff and respond to it, many falling into dispair because they get no hope from a teacher they trust. People are destroyed when people teach stuff like this- there are real consequences.
The answer to the original question was really easy:
Q: How does a woman submit in a domestice abuse situation.
A: She doesn’t.
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Back on the subject of evil, someone just emailed me this link (apparently this is a hot topic, because an email converstion I am not involved in is discussin this very thing).
The link is to the Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm#part3
God has decreed in Himself from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things which shall ever come to pass.
– Yet in such a way that God is neither the author of sin nor does He have fellowship with any in the committing of sins, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature , nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
– In all this God’s wisdom is displayed, disposing all things, and also His power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.
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Jeff S wrote:
BINGO! It is really quite strange as they try and put the wife us as a Christ like figure taking on the sin of the abuser so he can change. Christ has already done that.
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Jeff S wrote:
The irony is that today many (SB) Baptists will tell you that we don’t do creeds or confessions as they are written by man. They started changing their tune after the determinist god did not let them win the civil war and keep their slaves. :o)
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SGM Detox is back! http://calltorevolution.blogspot.com/2013/04/sgm-detox-returns-thriving-outside.html
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I started reading here two years ago. On the blog roll was CJ’s name and I thought what could they possibly have to say against him. Then I read the article about CJ giving money to Al Mohler and the SBC. I knew then something was very wrong. It’s taken me years to finally say CJ’s happiest place on earth was a cult.
I thought years ago things were wrong but the culture of silence kept me locked up solid, through the fear of hell. There is freedom, but for me it’s been extremely hard.
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@ Anon 1:
Anon 1 –
I could never understand this either. I think in their minds this is suffering for the sake of the Gospel, because male/female interaction in the marriage has been elevated to “gospel”
importance. The whole “suffering” issue has been warped as well. I wouldn’t be surprised if many people stay in abusive churches under the false belief of suffering for the gospel as well. I’m not saying there isn’t suffering for the Gospel. I think the concept is misused “within” the Church.
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@ Jeff S:
I could be wrong but a quick check said this
The Bible does not tell us the exact time or manner of the apostle Paul’s death, and secular history has yet to provide us with any definitive information. However, evidence highly suggests the apostle Paul’s death occurred after his fifth missionary journey ended in 67 A.D. Paul was likely beheaded by the Romans, under Emperor Nero, sometime around May or June of 68 A.D. Nero himself died by suicide on June 9th of the same year.
http://www.biblestudy.org/question/sauldie.html
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@ dee:
Right, but Paul’s fifth journey is after his aqcuittal. So his appeal to Rome recorded in Acts did result in an acquittal, even though he was eventually beheaded by Nero (as tradition has it, anyway).
http://www.biblestudy.org/maps/apostle-paul-fifth-missionary-journey-map.html
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@ Bridget:
For what it’s worth, I was told that suffering in my marriage was the same as missionaries who risk their lives for the Gospel. It’s not only women who get this line (not saying anyone was saying that).
I wrote the following blog post on this very subject:
http://cryingoutforjustice.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/were-we-created-to-be-toys/
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Anon 1 wrote:
“I AM WITH PAUL!”
“I AM WITH APOLLOS!”
“I AM WITH MAHANEY!”
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Deb wrote:
That’s what God made and Predestined The Little Woman for. And armorbearers. And sheeple. (And God’s Predestined Elect has an appetite for Mutton…)
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I hate to ask but is this idea of pushing legislation that will make Christianity the official state religion of North Carolina have Dee or Deb behind it? 🙂
j/k
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@ Fendrel: Egads! Say it isn’t so!
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@ Jeff S:
IMHO – what you were told is wrong. Thanks for the article. It makes good sense to me. Unfortunately, just about any concepts in scripture can be misused to control people. Your former pastors seemed to be doing just that.
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Eagle wrote:
Haha! I agree with Eagle. 🙂
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@ Patrice:
“Not everyone who says to me, “Gospelly, Gospelly” shall enter the kingdom of heaven.”
Ha! That’s good.
@ Eagle:
Jeff S posted a small part of the Baptist Confession of Faith. Though I’m not a Baptist, I agree with this, FWIW:
“God has decreed in Himself from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things which shall ever come to pass.
– Yet in such a way that God is neither the author of sin nor does He have fellowship with any in the committing of sins, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature , nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
– In all this God’s wisdom is displayed, disposing all things, and also His power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.”
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More info on what Fendrel brought up, if anybody’s interested:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/04/north-carolinas-proposed-state-religion-isnt-as-unprecedented-as-it-sounds/274646/
Sounds like another case of Dominionism Strikes Again to me.
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@ JeffB:
I’m also not Baptist FWIW- but I did want to show an example of Calvinists who believe that God ordains everything, yet does not violate the will of humans or create evil.
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Challies must be getting fewer invitations to conferences nowadays, so he needs to show his loyalty to the Calvinista pantheon.
His diatribe against those who point out abuse and wicked shepherds, sounds eerily family to the words of this well-known "preaching and vision pastor":
Some adults are just always questioning…these are people with critical spirits. These are people that if you answer their question, they've got 25 more questions, and they'll have questions forever. And it's not that they have questions, it's that they're sinning through questioning.
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Anon 1 wrote:
Is this it?
http://www.vantil.info/articles/rkmw_ppaa.pdf
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@ Anon 1:
Some random thoughts about Challies’ logorrhea. Secrets are a threat to the corporate church. These churches are corporations and they need income, mega income and that has to come from members and products. It’s not good for membership and numbers to have a bad reputation. It’s also not good to have Christians thinking for themselves…to read all of it…both sides. That’s not good news for people who make their money off of merchandising God’s children and buying and selling the souls of men. So in one fell swoop, Challies has cast down all discernment bloggers because apparently he has been a target. That’s what happens when you put yourself in the public eye. People watch you too. That’s what happens when you promote people’s work, including your own, for financial gain. People are watching. Especially if you are so bold as to do it in the name of Jesus Christ.
As he brings up finances, well, the way I think about that is that the gospel is not for sale and churches should not be marketplaces. Anything that gives the appearance that either of those are true is the appearance of evil. His kingdom is not of this world and Christ never intended the church to unite with state in the 501c3 style. He never intended church to be a business for profit. How many books has Challies written and sold with his interpretation of the gospel? How many conferences are bought and paid for in order to get some pastor’s interpretation of the bible? We were warned of false teachers. We were warned that we would know them by their fruits; yet, Challies would ask us all to ignore and remain in ignorance rather than think reasonably about the state of the church, given the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Didn’t he say he could only hope to work for someone like CJ or something like that? I mean, those are his own words, it’s not like I need to call him up and ask him how he feels about CJ or the doctrinal soundness of SGM. The doctrine that basically says that the church and pastor save you…yet also says…let go and let God, grace grace grace, but at the same time says…work work work…give give give…be ignorant, serve… serve…serve…CJ, you lead us to the cross…books, conferences, music and ministry…church church church church church church…care groups, community groups, accountability groups, sin sin sin…mission mission mission.
Anyway, I would say that ignorance is indeed bliss, but we are called to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves, and most times that means we have to waddle though a lot of information to figure out what is going on and how we should think about things. Our conscience dictates what we read and don’t read and the Holy Spirit convicts and teaches us all truth. There are many parts of the body and all are needed to make a whole. If Challies has decided to continue in ignorance, then he should follow his conscience. However, just as Challies needs to follow his conscience, so do others…and theirs might be saying something different. That needs to be respected.
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@ elastigirl: I am puzzled by what I’m seeing on the 1st couple of pages of this paper, but hey… Maybe I’m missing something?
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@ elastigirl: Like the writers’ claim that human beings are the offspring of various gods.
I wonder if he has ever read this?
There are a bunch of different sources for the myths, and some myths (and versions of myths) that are seemingly contradictory, so it’s not as if there’s one set narrative that everyone in Greece, the Greek islands and Greek colonies followed…
Also, I do not see how one can avoid Greek influence – even in Palestine – in Jesus’ time. But that’s a whole other topic.
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elastigirl wrote:
No, I have not seen this one. I am going to read it now. The one I read was about “Greek Chain of Being”.
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.@ numo:
haven’t read it — just thought Anon1’s description sounded interesting. Sounds like this isn’t the correct article
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Diane wrote:
Yes he did. He has 26 pages of things to say about Mahaney and SGM-most all of them wonderful, good, amazing, etc. He is not objective and he should not have said he was. It is almost silly to say these things and then pretend to be all bent out of shape when it is pointed out.
He should own it. I still say he should have said “So what? I love Mahaney and SGM and all the stuff that is put out there.” But, it is a bit sticky with all of those “alleged” victims running around, gumming up the works.
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Elastigirl, He wrote a chapter for Discovering Biblical Equality: Complementarity Without Hierarchy which was a response to the CBMW. He also wrote a response to the Danvers statement in 1989:
http://www.cbeinternational.org/files/u1/free-art/ao_response_to_the_danvers_statementw.pdf
I cannot find the other article I read about the Greek Chain of Being. This was all before the internet!
He is Reformed, too.
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Elastigirl, I just read it. Very interesting. He is talking about how Paul was not “building bridges” or looking for “common ground” on Mars Hill and explains it in detail.
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Patrice wrote:
This could certainly be true, in a manner similar to a parent teaching their child a healthy fear for scorpions.
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Diane wrote:
I saw this all the time in the mega industrial complex. Everything becomes about protecting the image of the organization and maintaining the system while growing it. Everything. Does not matter. The people become secondary to the system and the organization. They are only there to applaud and feed the beast.
They are not even cognizant of this because they have convinced themselves they are doing great things for God. As time goes on they become more and more isolated surrounded only by like thinking people. It becomes group think in a bubble and anyone who challenges anything must be wrong. They have lost part of their moral compass and can no longer discern right from wrong on many every day issues. Ex: Forcing someone who challenged them out in a secret way becomes a “good” because they were hurting the organization and that means hurting the cause of Christ. An “evil” or wrong is anything that comes against them in any way. It has become about them but they do not realize this. The worst thing that can happen is they are challenged in ways they cannot control. They are used to one way communication. Even on blogs they control comments.
Some of them are so convinced they were called of God to be what they are and do what they do, they might have to lose everything in order to find their way back. The people who follow them and applaud them are not doing them any spiritual favors.
I personally think they will survive and do well. In general, I think certain types are attracted to the stage, applause, etc. Those that aren’t but find themselves there, get addicted to it pretty quick. They also have to protect the persona they are known for to the point of the absurd. I have seen it.
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Eagle wrote:
Ugh! Why did you make me go there? :o)
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@ Diane:
Simple….’walk away’. 🙂
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Bridget:
Bridget, thank you for writing this comment (to Patrice). As I struggle (and fail) not to slip and fall back down into this dark pit of despair, you remind me of the reality of the work of the ruler of this world, and at the same time, you paint a wonderful picture of God and help me to continue seeing his love/goodness. Thank you.
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Patrice wrote:
Yes!
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Oasis wrote:
Bridget, That is so true. How did I miss this earlier? Beautiful!
I was listening to the so called heretic Greg Boyd recently when he made the statement (he is called that by many in the Reformed movement because of his Open Theism) that it is horrible that many are confusing God and Satan.
This is not an endorsement of Boyd. But I find many of his sermons interesting.
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@ Anon 1, numo & elastigirl:
I don’t have the stamina to read that whole paper (it’s very late) but just be careful. The website it’s on “aims to be a comprehensive catalogue of online resources
explicitly related to the theology, philosophy, and apologetics of Cornelius Van Til” (from the homepage). I can only assume, then, that it reflects at least part of his views. Van Til laid the groundwork for Reconstructionism. “Common ground” is one of his big concepts/catchphrases. He was the very first topic I covered on my blog (article). Doug Phillips’ mind is saturated with Van Til’s thought.
Personally, I think he’s dangerous just like all his Reconstructionist descendants. And some other Calvinists at the time thought so too.
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Hi all,
First time commenter here. Just FYI this is not the first time Tim Challies has written about watchblogs or discernment blogs being evil and telling readers not to read them. Here is a post from 2009 http://www.challies.com/articles/evil-as-entertainment?page=1 He shut down comments on that one too.
I hope that all the truth about these matters comes out. Don’t stop speaking out.
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Hmm.. the so-called “great chain of being,” maybe?
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Anon 1 wrote:
I think, from my own past experience, there can be a combination of ‘the fear of getting it wrong’ and ‘I have chosen and invested time and effort and metal resources into this leader as my guide to truth.’ It isn’t that the cognative dissonce isn’t noticed…it’s that because of the mental / emotional (and financial) investment, when said revered leader says something blatantly wrong, in order for the world you have built not to come crashing down, you have to come up with somw alternate meaning to the words for your own sense of continuity and peace. Even if it sounds crazy outside your own mind.
Sooner or later, though, that whole thing will come crashing down….the sooner, the less devestating.
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@ turtle:
Welcome to the ranks of those who are learning the truth and beig made free. 🙂
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Fendrel wrote:
Yikes! If that passes, the consequences will be ugly….just watch the Calvinistas flock there…. talk about oppression. :0
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Garland wrote:
It could also be like a parent teaching their child an unhealthy fear of their siblings….
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Hester wrote:
That is strange. If I remember correctly the paper I read on the Chain of Being was arguing AGAINST heirarchy in the Body of Christ and how the hierarchy we have incorporated came from the structure of the Greek/Roman thinking.
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Hester, I am not sure the Reconstructionists would claim him. His writing are at CBE and he wrote for Priscilla Papers and the Priscilla Aguila Foundation. Big into Egalitarianism. Not exactly a winning position with the Reconstructionists, I wouldn’t think. He is Reformed so he might have some connections to Van Til. I am most familiar with his egalitarian writings which go into hierarchies.
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“Think’in Or Stink’in?”
“Lots of folks out there not thinking for themsevles…” -Eagle
HowDee,
hmmm…
Is da proverbial Almohlerite”Engine Of Mass Religious Delusion Paradigm ” playing at a conference center near you?
hmmm…
Cut out all doze proverbial ‘religious middlemen’?!?
What?
All ya have ta do is sit down, open your bible, and turn da page…
Don’t get no bedda.
huh?
Thy Word, Oh Lord, is a lamp unto my widdle feet, and a light unto ‘thy’ path for me…
pidder, padder… 🙂
Sopy
—
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@ Anon 1:
I take it you mean R. K. McGregor Wright is not a Reconstructionist? I do seem to recall hearing that name before in connection with gender roles. Because Van Til is definitely claimed by Reconstructionists.
Like I said, I didn’t read the paper as I was tired (and today I have no time either – sigh). They might have picked up Wright elsewhere and just stuck him on the site; he might not have taken Van Til to his logical conclusions if he did agree with him, etc. There’s any number of possibilities. But the phrases “Van Til” and “common ground” tripped my radar.
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@ Anon 1:
“If I remember correctly the paper I read on the Chain of Being was arguing AGAINST heirarchy in the Body of Christ and how the hierarchy we have incorporated came from the structure of the Greek/Roman thinking.”
If that’s true, then it would be a real laugher if Van Til or others who believed like him came out against the Chain of Being. Clearly his theological descendants weren’t listening. Personally, I’ve long since stopped expecting crazies to be consistent and make sense. : )
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@ Bridget:
The issue of evil. You are right, I think. Many academic Christians have no gift of imagination and they are suspicious of its openness, looseness, playfulness. But there is no other way to approach a realm that is invisible to us and yet functions along side our reality–a realm about which God has not said much. If I ran seminaries, I would require regular reading of sci-fi and speculative fiction as part of the devotional life. hah
Also, perhaps because Evangelical/Reformed thinkers have long seen their primary battle to be against “humanism”, they have focused on the human to the detriment of all else. They let their opponents define the parameters of the debate and because of it, their constructions of the human heart carry a strong flavor of Freud. Freud was heavy with determinism.
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Patrice wrote:
Two thumbs up agreement here.
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Garland wrote:
That is the quote of the day!
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Bridget wrote:
Now THAT says it all. I have never thought of it that way! Great comment!
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@ Lulu: He has self identified why he is discerning and why we are not. It’s kind of like Mahaney who has set himself up as the arbiter of all things humble.
I still don’t get it. All of this stuff is on the internet, some on his own site. Why would he be shocked if someone looked up the players in the Cruciform Press? We need to live our lives like an open book and be comfortable in our own skin.
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Here’s another good explanation on our friend NC and her proposed laws regarding an official religion.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/04/north-carolinas-proposed-state-religion-isnt-as-unprecedented-as-it-sounds/274646/
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Hester wrote:
Thank you for this, Hester. I may be addressing the issue of Vision Forum with my pastor because he asked about my concerns with the movie Courageous. I had linked TWW post in an email to him and he was unfamiliar with the players involved not being a homeschool dad, so I’m looking to give him more detail
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Lulu et al,
I rarely read Tim Challies' blog, and I am curious about something. His infamous "Discernment" post was published just yesterday; however, all of the comments are 5 days old.
I am puzzled…
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“…I think it is hard for someone like Challies to understand that blogs like ours need not be filled with ‘investigative reporters.’ We are merely a very large group of average people, who have been abused in a variety of ways, by pastors of a very sick organization. And, we need to compare notes.
For three long decades we have been denied a voice or any way to connect with one another. Due to the degree of obfuscation in the SGM organization, we can still only gather bits of information to help each other put them together like a huge jigsaw puzzle. How else can we make sense of what is going on?
I respectfully differ from Challies’ assessment of ‘discernment blogs’. I firmly believe they have been ordained by God, as a means to set people free and to draw them closer to Him.” -Persona, SGM Survivors.
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Is Challies really still trying to pass himself off as a “neutral third party?” Requesting full disclosure of financial interest should NOT be this scandalous…unless there is something to hide. Just be open about it and move on Mr. Challies.
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Good grief. Challies has made his name as a “discernment blogger.” How many reviews has he written critiquing books not in his camp? How many times has criticized authors & speakers not in his camp? And how, please tell me, is TeamPyro different? Oh yeah, they’re like him. You see, it’s alright to be a discernment blogger as long as you’re the right kind of discernment blogger.
It’s amazing how defensive these guys get when you shine light on the financial aspects of their industry.
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@ Oasis:
Oasis –
Nothing brings more joy than knowing those under stress and fear are finding peace with God.
I am sad, tired, and angry that God is often portrayed as brutal and only concerned for His own glory. Yes, He is God. No, He is not the ruler of darkness, and throughtout scripture we see Him interacting with man. to be in relationship with Him
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@ Bridget:
Oops, accidentally hit post . . .
I’ll leave you with the end of Romans 8 because “things” (in self and outside of self) do try to separate us from God.
“For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Blessings 🙂
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@ Deb:
Puzzled . . . yes ???
The other puzzle is that your article that he “seems” to reference had very little commentary and was loaded with information that was at his site and a few others. Conversely, his entire article was commentary with no information to clear up the misinformation that he claims has been disbursed. ???
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@ Patrice:
Yes. It appears that most of the current religious leaders have determined the biggest threats to people knowing and understanding God to be humanism and feminism. These issues have become the extent of “principalities” for them.
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Hester wrote:
Are they aware of his writing a chapter for this along with other egal scholars:
http://books.google.ca/books/about/Discovering_Biblical_Equality.html?id=6G-RSR6JlmMC
How strange but thanks for the information!
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Deb wrote:
Wow. What is up with that?
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JeffB wrote:
Why would you do a gospel critique about some who doesn’t believe in the gospel? What a way to deflect criticism. “Look over here, there are kittens being murdered!”
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@ Kristin: Ditto.
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Bridget,
I purposely packed that post full of information from his and other websites. It is extremely ironic that I’m being slammed for apparently outing Kevin Meath when he and Challies are the ones who put the biographical info on their own website!
I guess Tim Challies is ‘banking’ on the fact that his readership will just accept him at his word without doing further investigation.
Standing firmly by what I wrote…
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Deb
I think a lot of people are quietly viewing the website. The best thing for blog traffic is to tell people not to look.
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Deb
I have proof. Alexa rankings have distinctly nudged up.
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@ Deb:
Deb –
All the comments I see at Challies” blog say “A day ago.” Not sure what you saw, or what went on with that.
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Julie Anne wrote:
Did anyone notice the comment by RCJR in Challies’ comments?
rcjr • a day ago −
First, I am sorry you are going through this brother. Since I suspect that I might have been the impetus of at least one batch of attacks on your blog in the past I know you are aware of my experience and the continuing existence of various rcsprouljristhedevil.com sites. It too lead me to repent for my past reading of these kinds of sites. Second, thank you for writing this. As always, not just well done, but edifying to me and your many readers. Third, there remain two great hardships. You will come to understand, if you haven’t already, that the great pain is not that there are Pharisees out there who would write/create such stuff. Haters, after all, gonna hate. The real heartache is that decent people will read this stuff and believe it. Other decent people will read this stuff and have vague doubts about you. Other decent people will read this stuff, know it is still bogus, but figure that you deserved it anyhow. The last heartache is that it will stay out there forever. If the New York Time published an expose of me tomorrow the day after it would be wrapping fish. But the internet is forever. Let me encourage you not only to not read about others at attack blogs, but don’t read about yourself there. Don’t pick the scab. Just know that we servants are not greater than our Master. God bless.”
Challies is apparently just suffering for Righteousness’ sake at the keyboards of Pharisees and Haters (like y’all).
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Of course, y’all are just Trolls according to another commenter, and my favorite, Busybodies in a comment seconded by Jared Wilson.
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Dave A A
Thanks for posting the comment by R.C. Sproul, Jr. on Tim Challies’ blog. You made my day!
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Bridget,
Thanks for the info. Glad Challies got it changed. 😉
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Anon 1 wrote:
Note: When posting Potemkin Comments from your sock puppets, make sure you get the dates straight. Comments come AFTER the posting, not before.
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Bridget wrote:
Which is a real kicker when you realize that Humanism started as a CHRISTIAN movement in the late Middle Ages, a reaction to “worm theology” of the time that glorified God by denigrating humanity — sort of the “Total Depravity” of its day.
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Mara wrote:
When I was on the phone with my regular writing partner (the burned-out preacher-man) this morning, he volunteered the information that Vision Forum was the most scary and dangerous group he’s ever come across. And that the Hyper-Calvinists (Calvinistas) he’s had run-ins with have no problem with alcohol or tobacco use (Eagle — Cue Slick Willie and his cigar); they rationalize it as being Predestined and affecting only the Flesh, not the Spirit. (Which harks back to Gnostic Dualism.) And the way he described the Young, Restless, and Truly Reformed (Calvinjugend) strutting around with buzz-cuts and attitude, I was reminded of a WW2 description of encountering the Waffen SS in the Balkans: “Young, tough, and cocky”.
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“The real heartache is that decent people will read this stuff and believe it.”
Well, from what I’ve seen, the people who claim “this stuff” actually back it up with documentary evidence; the people who deny “this stuff” back up their denial with shouting and “tsk-tsk.” It’s customary in a debate to actually attempt to refute the other person’s position. And bald counterassertion doesn’t qualify as a refutation.
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Bridget wrote:
THANK YOU, BRIDGET! That is just what I needed to read today! Because that’s how I feel; it seems there’s an attempt at work to take his love away from me. I fight against feeling profoundly unloved and/or unlovable because of early childhood abuse…all I really want in life is to know that God loves me and that I can always count on his love, no matter what. Every other question I have for him fades into the background, of a lower level of importance…
First it was the insistence of Todd Friel that God has no love (affection) for me/anyone…finally recovered last year from that worm poison after more than five years of misery…only for a grinning Satan to step out of the shadows with this message: “Actually…God willed the abuse and WANTED it to happen! HAHAHAHA!!!!!!”
That last one hit like a sledgehammer! But the verse you quoted shows me that NOTHING can separate me from his love. So timely! Thank you! 😀 😀
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Hmmm. Maybe it is time to revisit the Ligonier financial scandal where he tried to sue a blogger. It made USA Today and the Orlando Sentinel. Boy when stuff came out it did not make Sproul Sr look good at all. Talk about fleecing the sheep with a family operation. It was all made complete with Sproul Jr. online book calling the main benefactor of getting Ligoneir started a “white witch”, the the grandson with his myspace writing about driving a lexus and “inheriting grandads business”. Then when some wanted to take this to the Presbyterian courts they find out his church is NOT affiliated but independent so he was protected.
Many saw he was a fraud back then and some donors even realized they were lied to when they were told the lawsuit had been dropped but then when they checked on it it was not. They just could not find the blogger! So they lied to donors.
Guess who worked for Ligoneir (Sproul’s very incompetent son in law was figurehead prez) and really ran the place? Ligon Duncans brother. Small Reformed world, eh?
So I am sure Sproul empathizes with Challies. Donations to Ligoneir dropped drastically but he was making quite the bank until folks started looking at the 990’s online.
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“Just know that we servants are not greater than our Master. God bless.”
Yeah, we “servants” who make bank off Jesus.
No RCSproul, Don Kinsler was a “servant” and you pilfered his business and left him with nothing.
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@ Anon 1:
“Boy when stuff came out it did not make Sproul Sr look good at all. Talk about fleecing the sheep with a family operation.”
I read about that as well a year ago, the same time I was reading about Doug Wilson’s interesting group of devoted followers. And no, it did not make Sproul sr look very good, even if only half of it were true.
Why did he build that expensive cathedral?
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Do people need such an elaborate place to worship God? Or, was it built for men?
God surely doesn’t need it.
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@ Diane:
Diane, dahling, you must know that those places of worship are for gawd and not for the worshippers 😉
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@ Bridget:
🙂 Of course…how silly of me,
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@ Anon 1:Do you have any online sources that covered this? I do believe it is time to look into this.
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Diane wrote:
“And the more wicked part of the people did wax strong, and became exceedingly more numerous than were the people of God.
And they did still continue to build up churches unto themselves, and adorn them with all manner of precious things.”
4 Nephi 1:40-41 (Book of Smith)
From the same chapter, v 17, another name for “haters” and “busybodies” to be called– Lamanites!!
“There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites;”
And v 39 explains how Lamanites treat gospelly biblical Nephites — “And they were taught to hate the children of God, even as the Lamanites were taught to hate the children of Nephi from the beginning.”
I must admit that the phrase “Nor any manner of -ites” is my favorite in the entire book of mormon.
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“I must admit that the phrase “Nor any manner of -ites” is my favorite in the entire book of mormon.”
lol
When he was much younger, our son used to pronounce all manner of ites…as itties. For example, when he read Amalekites, he would pronounce it as “Amalekittys”.
So cute.
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@ Diane:
“And Joshua said, Hereby ye shall know that the living God is among you, and that he will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanitties, and the Hittitties, and the Hivitties, and the Perizzitties, and the Girga****ties, and the Amoritties, and the Jebusitties, and the Wartburgitties, and all manner of -itties.” Josh. 3:10 (Revised Slandered Version)
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@ Dave A A:
LOLOLOL
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Eagle wrote:
You said the secret woid, Eagle!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdVUCpu5yhw
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@ Eagle:
i wonder if the play will be banned in my heavily Mormon state? Seriously, after I *improved* the King James verse about all the -ites, it occurred to me that Joe Smith wrote much of the Book of Mormon just that way.
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Smith even has the anachronism of “churches” being BUILDINGS amongst the ancient American Israelites, where the Bible never ever calls a building a “church”. :0
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Comment removed by editor.
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From Rick Ross’ Cult Education Forum http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,113601
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The Washington Post Wednesday, April 11
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/how-churches-should-address-abuse/2013/04/10/ea39fdb8-9fb5-11e2-9c03-6952ff305f35_story.html