"You see, we are not like the many hucksters who preach for personal profit. We preach the word of God with sincerity and with Christ's authority, knowing that God is watching us."
Vertical Church – New Book by James MacDonald
Did you miss James MacDonald's Vertical Tour where he hit 40 cities in 60 days? MacDonald, who pastors Harvest Bible Chapel near Chicago, has written a new book entitled Vertical Church. For two months he traveled around the country promoting it along with Vertical Church (V.C.) paraphernalia that can be purchased at the James MacDonald store. He is so serious about the concepts he puts forth in the book that he got a tatoo with the V.C. logo. That is NOT A JOKE! He shows it to Mark Driscoll in this video clip. Take a look…
Apparently, James MacDonald isn't the only one tatting his body with the V.C. logo. When the bus rolled through Dallas, the "team" had a day off and according to a Facebook entry, "A few guys on our team went out to get Vertical Church tattoos!"
I find it rather odd that the Vertical Church logo resembles military stripes.
Rank Insignia for US Army Sergeant E-5
Is that what MacDonald was up to during his book tour – assembling an army to promote his Vertical Church book and ideas? I guess these young impressionable guys can attend Mark Driscoll's Boot Camp and then go and tat their arms with the Vertical Church logo.
Not long after the interview with Driscoll, MacDonald spoke at the first ever Resurgence conference, which we discussed here. Now that Driscoll and MacDonald are no longer Council Members of The Gospel Coalition, it will be interesting to follow their associations with other Christian leaders like Greg Laurie, Rick Warren, etc. Perhaps another coalition is in the works???
Nonetheless, Harvest Bible Chapel is having serious financial troubles (link), and their pastor goes on a two-month bus tour? When MacDonald arrived back at his church after the tour had ended, he addressed his detractors on October 13-14. Here is a portion of that statement:
RESPONDING TO OUR DETRACTORS
"As we approach the Lord’s table today, let me say that we are back to reality. After 40 cities and almost 80 thousand people ministered to on the Vertical Church tour, we are gladly back to our church family—but also to the reminder that spiritual warfare is real, and that I have some pretty dedicated detractors.
I call them detractors, not enemies, not wolves, because I’m maintaining the hope that—though I believe they are misguided—I’m maintaining the hope that they do desire God’s best for our church. God knows the hearts of these detractors and I pray that when the truth is brought out they will relent in the distribution of error and adjust their opinions to fit the record of what has actually happened.
Regardless of what they choose to do, as we’re reminded today, we are following Jesus who taught us how to respond to those who oppose us. We are to love our detractors, we are to pray for them, and we are to seek to do them good. Now if Christ could do this while 100% innocent, then surely we can love and pray and do good to those whose criticism of us is certainly not entirely without merit.
This past Thursday night more than 200 of our Elders/Deacons/Pastors and spouses met together with more unity and mutual love than I have known in the history of our church. Our church has never been stronger—not financially, not in systems of accountability—our church has never been stronger in our commitment to obey the Scriptures and to make disciples for Christ. So it grieves me deeply that our church family is being subjected to attacks on me personally and upon our Elder board. Thankfully, our detractors are mainly outside of our church and entirely, totally outside our church’s leadership…"
James MacDonald appears to have a great relationship with C.J. Mahaney, who spoke at a conference at Harvest Bible Chapel in 2008.
Yes, it appears that C.J. Mahaney has had quite an impact on James MacDonald in recent years, and perhaps we are just beginning to see the fruit. We leave you with three short videos of James MacDonald and C.J. Mahaney featured on The Gospel Coalition website. We assume these are training videos for pastors or wannabe pastors who associate with TGC. Needless-to-say, we are extremely concerned about the future of Christendom with these kinds of leaders "in charge".
Lydia's Corner: Leviticus 7:28-9:6 Mark 3:31-4:25 Psalm 37:12-29 Proverbs 10:5
I'm sorry, but seeing that book cover associated with Mark Driscoll made me think of the Da Vinci Code movie (all ten minutes or so of it that I've seen). See quotes below. (link)
Robert Langdon: "The ancient male symbol was the blade, it's a basic phallus. It's still used today on military uniforms." [blades = the military stripes on the cover]
Sir Leigh Teabing: "Yes, and the more penises you have, the higher your rank. Boys will be boys!"
…though I guarantee you that wasn't what MacDonald intended.
VIDEO: “They’re on a bus…”
Until Driscoll throws him ‘under the bus.’
the emphasis on military imagery is creepily reminiscent of militias, etc. …
Anon,
Thanks for sharing that ‘under the bus’ video. Looks like there was some symbolism involved with the “They’re on a bus…” cliip. Several weeks after that Rick Warren joined Mark Driscoll at the first ever Resurgence conference. Hmmm….
Guesses on how many women have got the vertical tattoo?
Haitch,
Great question!
numo,
Do you think the similarity between he Vertical Church logo and the military insignia was intentional? At first I thought it was a coincidence. Now I’m not so sure…
There is nothing sadder than a fifty-something trying to look like a twenty-something, unless it’s a fifty-something trying to look and act like a twenty-something.
Clay Crouch,
Looks like MacDonald turned 52 this year if you can trust the info at Wikipedia. I remember those commercials from the 70s – “You’re not getting older, you’re getting better…” That doesn’t appear to be the case with these Calvinista dudes.
I do not understand this militant christianity. Can someone help me on this.
It appears to me they technically use the Bible but it is always their interpretation coupled with as much control as they can get.
A very detailed personal story was posted to The Elephant’s Debt yesterday. It supports TED’s charges of financial impropriety. Very interesting story. And very sad.
Hester beat me to it concerning the Da Vinci Code.
But unlike Hester, part of me wonders if it is intentional on MacDonald’s part. He just figured enough Christians hadn’t seen the movie to make the connection?
And what’s worse, MacDonald’s army stripes have the added point which really makes me wonder wth is going on in his masculine worshiping brain.
Clay
“There is nothing sadder than a fifty-something trying to look like a twenty-something.” There is the famous photo of Mark Driscoll wearing a Mickey Mouse shirt which fit tightly over his paunch. I always laugh when I see it.
I just watched the Mahaney/MacDonald videos. I found the two of them very belaboring. Like they are trying too hard and agonizing too much.
Also, the first video starts off about some comment MacDonald received and then they just went right into correction via email vs. in person. First, they seem to understand themselves to be the purveyors of correction. I mean, was the complaint here that the person sought to correct MacDonald via a written comment and he didn’t like that because he couldn’t tell where the person was coming from? Or did they use this video to just hijack the whole issue and assume MacDonald was supposed to do the correcting (it doesn’t help that we have no idea of the content of the comment) but couldn’t figure out if he should bother because the person wasn’t present to be corrected? In other words, they came off like they and they alone have the God given right to correct anyone and they are struggling with the best, most effective way to do that. On the other hand, they have completely shut off any chance of anyone who cannot get actual face time with them every saying anything to them by way of correction. Yet, didn’t they just sit there all by themselves and indirectly “correct” anyone not present with them who uses email to try to say something corrective to someone?
While I’m on this, I guess I could also point that God does not correct us face to face but through the written word.
Another thing I can’t quite put my finger on. This venue of these two guys conversing back and forth on a video for everyone else to watch bugs me for some reason. The first thing I think of is “elitism.” They are always talking to each other (same thing with the Driscoll vid) like they are somebody important we are supposed to pay attention to. They act like they are all humble and teachable but at the same time come off as elite, unreachable, and most definitely unteachable. Like they’ve just hijacked and locked up any conversation anyone is going to have on these matters. I’m not sure if this is entirely fair. But it gives me the creepy crawlies anyway.
Am I really the only one who notices that maybe the logo is supposed to look like a steeple?
Here’s what I’m hearing from their mouths: “Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, it’s all about him, the gospel, gospel, gospel, gospel, trust us, we have your best interests in mind, we’re not superstar charlatans, we’re building the kingdom of God and we need your money!”
James M. criticized churches for being too “helpful,” and then proceeded to talk about how the power of God can overcome the “mountains” in our lives. Pot calling the kettle black. I’m frustrated by the way that so many evangelical leaders always see everybody else as the problem and are never willing to subject themselves to critical scrutiny or consider changing their methods. No, we’re doing it right, and those OTHER evangelicals who have absolutely no substantive differences from us are the ones screwing up and getting it wrong. Let’s all laugh at them!
Eagle….so true on the observation they would flunk out of military boot camp. These men don ‘t know how to take, “orders “….nor do the know what the concept of being a, SERVICEman, consists of.
Men smitten with themselves. Modern day Pharisees parading around, beating up the sheep.
I do not understand this militant christianity. Can someone help me on this. — Mot
I wonder if they’re mixing the Bible with Warhammer 40K.
That said…the military emphasis by Driscoll and MacDonald is a joke…. — Eagle
Reminds me of a lot of the Survivalist(TM) fanboys who were surfacing all over the news in the Eighties. I especially remember one Survivalist spokeshole — weighed well over 300 lbs (none of it muscle), wore private hunters’-pattern cammies topped by Special Forces Green Beret and more fruit salad on his chest than Audie Murphy (including every Special Forces and Jump Wings and Elite Unit Badge but no Congressional MOH), spouting off about how “When Push Comes To Shove, The Most Plentiful Food Source in the Cities WILL be HUMAN FLESH! Prepare to Do What Must Be Done to SURVIVE! This Summer! IT’S COMING! IT’S ALREADY TOO LATE!!!!!!!”
I mean, this guy reeked of Drooling Fanboy. Like the 80-lb whiny-voiced wimps who brag “I’m a Ninja!! I Can Kill You With One Finger!!!!!”
But I’d like to see MacDonald or Driscoll in boot camp in the Marine Corps in Camp Pendleton or boot camp in the Army in Camp Leonard wood in Missouri. Now a drill sergeant yelling at Driscoll would be a Kodak moment! — Eagle
Especially when Driscoll threatens the drill sergeant with “DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?” or “I CAN BEAT YOU UP!!!!!!”
If half of the allegations on The Elephant’s Debt site are true, and I have no reason to doubt otherwise, then HBC is a cult of personality. It is nothing more than a recycle of the shepherding/discipleship fiasco of the 1970’s. HBC’s MacDonald et al will, like its predecessor, leave in their wake untold numbers of damaged individuals and marriages. And sadly, some of these never recover. For those of you who are perplexed by the state of American Evangelicalism, I’ll leave you with this one comforting thought: The Episcopal Church welcomes you :).
Love 2 Corinthians 2:17 – a verse conveniently ignored by ‘celebrity’ preachers, who act more like fame whores than ministers and gather a flock only in order to fleece them for their own personal gain. Elmer Gantry is as relevant today as it was in the 1920’s when it was written by Sinclair Lewis.
@ Miguel:
No, I saw the steeple too. But I still couldn’t help being amused. : )
Miguel and Hester,
Of course one initially sees a steeple, but if you glance at the logo quickly, guess what it looks like?
Hi guys. It’s been a few weeks since I last commented, been dealing with a mouse invasion in my house in addition to my own faith struggles – both exhausting. I am changing my name to “Looking for You” since I noticed that another “Jan” commented last week. I’m the Jan that had shared bits and pieces of my story of losing two children and questioning/rejecting the Reformed faith. I’ve missed you all and hope to be commenting again soon.
The imagery used, with reference to the military, does not come as a surprise, particularly when you read the often-used illusions to living in a ‘wartime’ mentality (I’m thinking about Piper and his “Don’t Waste Your Life” book). The wartime reference is supposed to remind believers that we are to live in radical obedience to Christ – when you live in the middle of a war your life is forever altered. Sadly, for all the useful metaphors this might have, it also carries the dark side we are all too well aware of with regard to power and authority. I wonder what kind of visceral reactions MacDonald might get when someone sees his body art?
Well, Mr MacDonald does make some nice points. Referring, for instance, to “detractors”. As a matter of fact we have them as well. Since we don’t believe in the distinction between “church” and “para-church” organisations, we don’t “go to church”, so we get flak from some who therefore assume we don’t have any fellowship or that we aren’t accountable disciples, or that we’re just sinners.
I don’t think we can lay claim to any dedicated detractors, although that might be different if anyone had heard of us. And there is one lassie who keeps saying (apparently) “I wish they’d find somewhere to worship“. Sigh…
I though this bit was interesting, though:
I’ve certainly had dedicated detractors in the past, though; believers (leaders, in fact) who seemed hell-bent on believing the worst about me whatever I did or said, and would not be convinced otherwise by any evidence. I certainly know what it is to be on the receiving end of a persistent distribution of error, from people whom I wished would adjust their opinions to fit what was actually happening. I don’t know what’s in James MacDonald’s heart; actually, I must disclose near-total ignorance on what’s in his sermons! (For my fellow-UK residents, I have to say he looks rather like Greg Wallace off Masterchef.)
It’s at times like this that I particularly regret the splitting of the (protestant, at least) church into entirely separate denominational factions and movements, so that there’s no realistic way of having this sort of issue out once and for all.
Eagle
I tweeted this today. Got your message.
Clay
But does the Episcopal church have cool tattooes?
Jan who will soon be known as Looking for You
You have been missed and we will be looking for you.
Oh yes, Dee. And our tattoos could beat up MacDonald’s tattoos. And Driscoll’s. Probably both at the same time.
Clay: “I’ll leave you with this one comforting thought: The Episcopal Church welcomes you.”
So does the “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.”
No very comforting. Sorry.
Thanks Dee. Having a lot of faith struggles lately, and I could use prayer. Hanging around here helps me “recharge” and I haven’t had much time for it lately, thanks to the mouse invasion. 🙁 (Funny how both mice and bad theology leave behind a lot of dirt in unexpected places, while eating away at anything good you once had).
Hey “Looking for You” – welcome back. I can’t stand old mice smell, but ‘a new broom sweeps clean’.
Deb – yes, I think it’s entirely intentional. MD uses hyper-military imagery and analogies all the time.
Miguel – What AZArmy said! I’m sure that we all noticed the steeple aspect, but…
anonymous on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 09:33 AM said:
RE: “I just watched the Mahaney/MacDonald videos… Another thing I can’t quite put my finger on. This venue of these two guys conversing back and forth on a video for everyone else to watch bugs me… like they are somebody important we are supposed to pay attention to.”
Pretending to be Charlie Rose discussing foreign policy with a previous Secretary of State, black background & all. Same seating position. Same camera angles.
Numo: “MD uses hyper-military imagery and analogies all the time.”
And here is one of the most blatantly vain examples – MD trampling upon graves in a veterans’ cemetery: http://youtu.be/JIrIKbCz3n4
TedS – yes, that video (and MD’s entire “campaign” at the time) is repulsive!
Am I really the only one who notices that maybe the logo is supposed to look like a steeple? – Miguel
Yah, a Mormon one, and instead of a cross at the top for a Christian one or the Moroni man that is sometimes on the Mormon spire, Umm, this steeple is tattoo’d on a man, cuz’ James is da man.
“I just watched the Mahaney/MacDonald videos. I found the two of them very belaboring. Like they are trying too hard and agonizing too much.” Anonymous at 0933
Oh that is just classic Cavinista.
“The fuzz in my belly-button is soooo big.”
“Yes, you have a lot of fuzz there. But, the fuzz in MY belly-button is soooo much bigger.”
Looking for You (formerly Jan)
Hmmm? Faith Struggles?
F. A. I. T. H.
F.orsaking A.ll I. T.rust H.im – by Faith
F.aceing A.ll (Mouse) I.nvasions T.hrough H.im – in Faith
F.reedom A.rises I.n T.ruthful H.earts – by Faith in Jesus
And a few edited verses about faith because
I was wondering – Which Faith are you struggling with? 🙂
….Ac 6:8 full of faith and power
Ac 14:27 door of faith
..Ro 3:27 law of faith
..Ro 4:13 righteousness of faith
..Ro 9:30 righteousness which is of faith
..Ro 10:8 word of faith
..Ro 12:3 measure of faith
..Ro 12:6 proportion of faith
Ro 16:26 obedience of faith
2Co 4:13 spirit of faith
….Ga 3:2 hearing of faith
….Ga 3:5 hearing of faith
….Ga 3:7 they which are of faith
….Ga 3:9 they which be of faith
..Ga 6:10 household of faith
Eph 6:16 shield of faith
Php 1:25 joy of faith
.1 Th 1:3 work of faith
.1 Th 5:8 breastplate of faith
2Th 1:11 work of faith
..1 Ti 4:6 words of faith
.1Ti 6:12 fight of faith
Hb 10:22 assurance of faith
..Jas 5:15 prayer of faith
Ok, lol, maybe I’m seeing things but it looks like James has veneers. Those things are expensive. From what he makes per year, he can afford it.
Looking for You (formerly Jan)
I have prayed for thee, that *thy faith* fail not… .Lu 22:32.
…Mt 9:22……thy faith hath made thee whole
.Mt 15:28……great is thy faith
…Mr 5:34……Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole
.Mr 10:52……Jesus said unto him … thy faith hath made thee whole
…Lu 7:50……woman, thy faith hath saved thee
….Lu 8:48…..Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole
.Lu 17:19……Arise … thy faith hath made thee whole
.Lu 18:42……And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee
..Phm 1:5……Hearing of thy love and faith
..Phm 1:6……communication of thy faith
….Re 2:19……I know thy … faith
Headless Unicorn Guy
Check you email-someone wants to get in touch with you.
“I just watched the Mahaney/MacDonald videos… Another thing I can’t quite put my finger on. This venue of these two guys conversing back and forth on a video for everyone else to watch bugs me… like they are somebody important we are supposed to pay attention to.”
Tell me about it. That sort of venue reeks of celebrity anymore, “look at me”!! YOu are so honored to get to see me be a real person. (even though it is all staged)
I don’t know if any one else will know that this means but when McDonald talks about his “detractors”, he reminded me of Mac Brunson of FBCJAx mega church fame who sicced the authorities on an anonymous blogger who outed his shenanigans. Of course, that case stopped the celebrities from tracking down and silencing bloggers. Thank you Tom!!!.
@ TedS.:
I don’t have time to watch the whole video, but I watched the first minute or so and didn’t see him “trampling” any graves. However, I agree that MD even attempting to compare himself to the men buried at Arlington is a complete joke.
For your information and edification I will pass on that I watched the Driscoll in the grave yard video in which Mark Driscoll stands in Arlington National Cemetery where we bury our fallen soldiers and say 20 year old guys want/need to be taught how to have sex with their wives once a day.
I couldn’t sit in this guy’s church for two minutes.
@Irish
“The fuzz in my belly-button is soooo big.”
“Yes, you have a lot of fuzz there. But, the fuzz in MY belly-button is soooo much bigger.”
“Yes, yours may be bigger. But the fuzz in my belly-button is more winsome.”
Sergius
Where have you been hiding? MIssed you.
Thanks for the prayer and encouragement A. Amos Love. In answer to your question, “Which faith are you struggling with?”
I guess, it’s just that I want so badly to believe without doubt that God is good. I have so much hope of that when I spend time here, with all of you. I’ve had many moments this summer when it’s been clearer to me than ever that he loves me. But this new-found faith is still so vulnerable, and when I don’t have time to be on the internet much, my only influences (all around me) are ultra-Reformed folks, repeating the things they don’t know I’ve rejected like broken records. Like hypnosis. I feel too weak to fight it, I don’t speak up… I don’t want to get theologically pounded. I’m just an illogical, emotional woman after all. So instead I end up re-absorbing what they say and freaking out (always inwardly, quietly), because what if it’s true? What if it’s true that God is “completely sovereign” and all events, even all evil events, can be attributed to “God’s will, for his own glory?” What if it’s true that it wasn’t disease and Death that took my children from me, but a sovereign God who will glorify himself through my suffering? How can he be good if that is true? How can I reconcile that with “God loves me?” What if it’s true that the Holy Spirit would never teach me directly because I am a woman, and everything I’ve been learning under the belief that it has been Him leading me has just been… me? My own easily deceived female mind? What if the internet really is evil and I am rebellious to even be reading here?
There are times when I look at these doubts and questions of mine, and I laugh in their face. That is usually the side of me that I present when I comment here. There are other times I stay away from here, when these questions threaten to overwhelm me, to take me back. Or maybe even to send me running from Christianity. My heart has become a raging battleground. I don’t know when or how it will end. Will it end? It was easy when I was Reformed – so self-assured, there were never any inner battles inside of me to be fought, no questions to ask, no navigation needed – it was all done for me… guess I shoulda gotten a clue at how eerily easy it was.
So anyway, that’s as good as I can explain my struggle right now. Can’t get away from Reformed theology, it is always there, threatening to pull me back or send me running. Still haven’t found words to tell my husband I want out of the system…
Thanks for caring A. Amos Love.
@ anonymous:
Maybe I will have to find time to watch that video… I wonder how all the veterans buried in that cemetery managed to go to war if they “needed” to have sex with their wives once a day. Maybe…just maybe…they were (gasp!) more mature men than Mark Driscoll.
I wonder how Mark would react to being buried alive in a foxhole? – like many of those men were.
Also:
“20 year old guys want/need to be taught how to have sex with their wives once a day.”
1. Most 20-year-old men do NOT need to be taught how to do this.
2. Does Mark Driscoll believe in birth control? Because if he doesn’t, the flipside of this requirement is that all women need to be taught how to birth and parent 10+ children. On one income, of course, since they’re not allowed to work.
Hester,
It’s worse than that when you consider the context of the video is church planting being a battle with many fallen soldiers.
@ Looking for You:
“What if it’s true that the Holy Spirit would never teach me directly because I am a woman, and everything I’ve been learning under the belief that it has been Him leading me has just been… me? My own easily deceived female mind?”
Philip’s four daughters prophesied (Acts 21:8-9) and the women (including Mary, interestingly enough for us Protestants) were some of the ones who received the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. Tongues of fire and all. If that’s not direct teaching, I don’t know what is. The idea that the HS won’t teach you except through a man is a lie propagated by…(drum roll please)…men – and Satan. I don’t see how even a complementarian could deny this fact.
So when the patriarchs get you down…always remember Pentecost. Jesus’ own mother had a tongue of fire over her head.
“What if the internet really is evil and I am rebellious to even be reading here?”
Please don’t tell me someone actually told you that. : ( I highly doubt they would call the internet evil if you were visiting Monergism, Desiring God or the Puritan Board. There is always a double standard.
I hope this was encouraging to you.
@ anonymous:
MD using the fallen to propagate his wackiness… Let’s just say my mom will be much less than pleased when she hears this one. Her dad was a WWII veteran who had some personal experience with foxholes.
Hester,
Oh boy. Yes, definitely watch it for yourself before you tell her about it. There’s a bunch of stuff in there that is quite ugly, IMO.
“My heart has become a raging battleground. I don’t know when or how it will end. Will it end? It was easy when I was Reformed – so self-assured, there were never any inner battles inside of me to be fought, no questions to ask, no navigation needed – it was all done for me… guess I shoulda gotten a clue at how eerily easy it was.”
Looking for you,
I know folks who have left and cannot even open their bibles anymore. I think we bandy abouut the cult word too much but what other word is there to describe how completely this entire system overtakes a person? So that when, and if, one leaves, they have no grounding because they thought they had all the answers. The system is complete because if you leave, then you were never saved or you never really understood it, according to them. NC has all the answers, you see. But they are the wrong ones. Many of us have been blinded by the self confidence and self assurance that comes out of that movement. CAn you think of other movements in history that had that same level of assurance in the young led by the older?
I say, give your poorself a break. Bring your burdens to Him as His Yoke is easy and His burden light. Don’t try to engage unless you are ready. You ain’t changing anybodies mind who is not already questioning and most don’t until some crisis/scandal hits. And even then rarely.
Here is what we encourage folks to do: Read ONLY the Gospels for 3 years. KNOW Jesus. What He did, What He was like, What HE said or did not say. Focus solely on Him. Pray for all the man made filters to go away and you just want to know Jesus.
Gosh, I know that sounds easy. It is not. I went through a 7 year desert myself over spiritual tyranny and asking my self who was I in Christ? Lost a ton of what I thought were brothers and sisters who were alot like the three monkeys in refusing to acknowledge evil done in the Name of Christ. So many people want me to believe that was real Christianity and sinning like that by hurting people, power grabbing, lying is normal. I refuse to believe it even if I am the last person standing.Personally, I think we should be able to trust our brothers and sisters in Christ over the long term. But that is just me.
If you still feel you must accompany your husband to church just sit there and read the Gospels if you can.
I could only stomach watching the first few minutes of Mark Driscoll’s “A Good Soldier” video… the hubris and vanity just stuns me.
The disrespect for those fallen men is repulsive.
First of all: the choice of music. It would be much better suited for an opener to a cage fighting match than for scenes zooming in on the graves of men who gave their lives to save others.
Next thought: Notice the not so subtle put-down of the typical “nice-guy” pastor. A pastor is not worthy of respect unless he can be a jerk to other people, I guess.
The “nutjobs and weirdos” line made me laugh… You ARE a nutjob, Marky! Pornovisions? ‘nuf said.
I can’t watch the rest. The guy makes me want to throw things, and I can’t afford to buy a new laptop. :p
What if it’s true that the Holy Spirit would never teach me directly because I am a woman, and everything I’ve been learning under the belief that it has been Him leading me has just been… me? My own easily deceived female mind?
Looking For You,
You’ve got a lot on your plate right now. I’m sorry you are struggling so.
I agree with Hester. God gives the Holy Spirit to women too, and He is the one who teaches and guides us into truth. Jesus taught Mary directly and said she had chosen the greater part. It is completely false that God will not teach a woman directly. Jesus said His sheep hear HIS voice and they follow Him. He didn’t say only His male sheep. The whole flock.
As for women being particularly easy to deceive, look at the number of cults that were started by deceived men.
Okay…knowing MacDonald, et al’s gender theology, I wonder if, in their minds, the men are the vertical church and the women are the horizontal church…..
Hester, you said, “I watched the first minute or so and didn’t see him “trampling” any graves.”
Okay. So I suppose you do not consider standing on top of the graves of fallen veterans, while your film crew does the same, isn’t considered “trampling” in your book. IMHO, perhaps a better word would be desecrating.
Thanks for the encouragement Hester, Anon 1, anonymous.
Hester, no one has ever actually said to me that the internet is evil and I should not use it or anything like that, and I’ve never heard it directly taught. It is seen as useful when used wisely and in moderation. And I can garauntee that the amount of time I spend reading here and googling my hard theological questions (such as “did God really create Satan?”) would be seen as neither wise nor useful, but rebellious and headed toward apostasy. Of course, no one knows. But blogs that speak out against the Reformed version of “biblical ideals” are definitely frowned upon.
Anon 1, will have to respond to yours later, getting dinner on – for now, thank you, that was so encouraging.
Jeannette,
That was a GREAT COMMENT! Thanks for a laugh!
Looking, I will be praying. I cannot imagine what you are going through, but as someone who has been booted from a church and gone through their own wilderness as a result, well…
It *does* take time to recover. For me it’s been 10 years and counting. My conception of God has changed a lot in that time – I believer (for the 1st time in my life) that he loves me, and that he is full of mercy, grace and compassion.
Like many who’ve been through their own pain and difficulties in this area, I find it hard to read the bible – the OT is especially difficult and many books there are triggering for me.
But the words and actions of Jesus… they are beautiful to me.
thinking of you,
n.
“Like many who’ve been through their own pain and difficulties in this area, I find it hard to read the bible – the OT is especially difficult and many books there are triggering for me.”
Numo, A book that really helped me with the OT is “Genesis for Normal People: A Guide to the Most Controversial, Misunderstood, and Abused Book of the Bible “. Yeah, I know it is about Genesis but it sets the tone for the entire OT. It really is a great book. It is only on kindle but is also only 4.99!
http://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Normal-People-Edition-ebook/dp/B007T9R8DM/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
Looking for You, I also meant to tell you that if you want to know what God is like, look to Jesus of Nazareth. (I stole that from NT Wright)
Anon 1 – thanks!
I will definitely check out that title – must wait ’til next month, though, as I just blew my Kindle allowance for this month. 😉
@Looking For You–I could have written that myself a year ago! Don’t give up–there’s freedom from that theological bondage, and it’s worth the struggle!
@Anon1, I ordered the book!
Sergius Martin-George,
“The fuzz in my belly-button is soooo big.”
“Yes, you have a lot of fuzz there. But, the fuzz in MY belly-button is soooo much bigger.”
“Yes, yours may be bigger. But the fuzz in my belly-button is more winsome.”
“I’ve got a 10-point sermon that will help you with that.”
I have very dear friends who attended Harvest in Rolling Meadows and went through their so-called marital counseling. No matter how many promises the husband broke, no matter how much she explained how mentally and verbally abusive he was, she was always the one scolded for not “submitting” enough. No accountability for him at all. He hangs onto JM’s every word as if he is God Himself. At the end of it all, she filed for divorce and he had become a full-fledged stalker. All under the watchful eyes of HBC “counselors”. And she now wants nothing whatsoever to do with church. It breaks my heart that this story is not the only one I’ve heard.
I attended Harvest when it was a much smaller church. The larger it became, the less it felt like a church and more like James’ fan club. I left but they stayed behind. What has become of it now is beyond sad.
@Irish
I thought those guys were mostly 5-pointers.
SMG
Sergius and Irish,
I’m contemplating the trajectory of your comments.
Also, how do you unpack fuzz in a belly-button? 🙂
@Deb
how do you unpack fuzz in a belly-button?
Very carefully. And once you do, you thank God it’s over with.
Looking For You, my heart breaks reading your post. Pleas know that you are not the problem. The kind of struggle you are having shows strength, not weakness. Weakness is unquestioning belief.
God is a good God. The question of suffering is always a tough one no matter how we view the sovereignty of God. Anyone who tries to tell you that you have suffered for God’s pleasure has missed it big time- this is not the message of scripture. People do suffer, but suffering is the result of sin (and not necessarily the sin of the sufferer).
Theological answers are very hollow to most people suffering (though I’m one of the few who gets comforted by theological discussions- I know, I’m a little twisted). Theology may help us explain or understand things and is useful for creating a coherent model of God’s revealed Truth, but it doesn’t really get to the heart of the matter. I would implore you not to let people’s cold doctrines born of a place of privilege not wear you down.
What does get to the heart of the matter is that Christiantiy is the only faith that features a God who understands suffering. Christ, in his human nature, suffered on the Cross. He knows suffering and He knows pain. What a good and gracious God we serve to not abandon us in our pain, but to understand and live it.
I may be Reformed in my doctrine, but I believe in a good God who loves us and does not desire us to suffer. Suffering is the result of living in a broken world marred by sin.
And the idea the Spirit cannot talk to you directly because you are a woman is nonsense and I actually have never met anyone who teaches anything like that- that’s pretty hard core,
SMG,
The peon pew-warmers deserve a double portion.
Deb,
Calvinistas are always picking at their belly-buttons. They do it the reformed way.
Sergius,
🙂 BTW, where have you been? We’ve missed you.
Irish,
I just want to know one thing. When the Calvinistas pick at their belly-buttons, is it gospel-driven?
@ Deb and Dee
I’ve found gainful employment and it’s seriously cramping my style! But I have been keeping up with TWW, though, I assure you.
Sergius – would it be fair to say that you now have enough $ to buy unlimited amounts of Gibbles Cheesy Puffs? 😉
Is it just me or does anybody else see the MacDonald & Mahaney vids as reminiscent of the coneheads back in the good old days of old SNL?
@ Searcing & Anon,
Give Driscoll some credit, at least he didn’t try to peddle his piffle at the Wall.
Muff – I think (as a former Arlington, VA resident) that going to Arlington National Cemetery and filming as he did is every bit as bad.
I used to drive across the Memorial Bridge (goes from the cemetery to the Lincoln Memorial) pretty frequently and saw many funeral processions, complete with horse-drawn caissons. The ceremonies and burials are taken very seriously by local residents.
Looking For You – that sounds, if I may so observe, what generations of believers have called the Good Fight. As far as I can tell, a lot of people never even join the fight; some have a relatively easy life and tack some gentle christian spirituality onto it, and others have a tough life but surrender to it and accept that it must be God’s will and they must be bad people who deserve to be abused.
Several contributors to TWW have lately commented on what it would be like if it were harder to be a Christian in the west (comparing it to, say, communist China). I know what they mean, but I beg to differ: it is hard to be a Christian in the west. Not least because there are so many tempting counterfeits and comfortable traditions that offer a lot of security and pleasure to the right kinds of people. Those who fit easily within those counterfeits, or who are so wired that they are easily gratified by the traditions, don’t often like it when the formula doesn’t work. If you’re determined to go on asking, seeking and knocking until you find something authentic, you won’t be popular among people who stopped halfway. (They’re enjoying it, after all, so why can’t you?)
Maybe the biggest reason you’re finding it tough is that it is tough. Jesus promised it, actually; you’ve found a narrow gate leading to a steep and difficult road that few find. Oddly enough, as well as the happy scriptures (and I don’t mean that flippantly), you may want to read the unhappy ones too. So as well as all the “amazing – no condemnation!!” stuff in Romans 8, try the “wretched person that I am – who will rid me of this body of death?!?!?” stuff that comes just before it. Or the famous “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Where the f***ing **** were you while x was happening? And no, I’m not letting you go until you bless me, and I don’t care who thinks that’s selfish.” I’m just guessing at examples there, but the real prayers in times of trouble aren’t often respectable ones.
@ Anon (10/25 7:09):
I have not watched the video yet, as I had to deal yesterday not only with preparing for a direct hit by a hurricane/tropical storm, but also with the news that a family we know suddenly lost their 4-year-old daughter. My grandfather was a WWII veteran (see my comment further downthread) and he qualified to be buried at Arlington. So please don’t imply that I take MD’s abuse of these veterans’ memory lightly just because I chose not to use the word “trampling.”
Muff
Thank you for the laugh. Mahaney and MacDonald do remind me of the coneheads.
Sergius,
That’s great news! We have missed your unique sense of humor around here. 🙂
@numo
That’s where my first paycheck went!
Looking for You – you are not alone, sister. I, too, am struggling with face since I left patriarchy. My faith, thought not gone, is more on the jello end than the mountain end. It is shaky and I worry that it will end up gone when I wake up the next morning.
I have now moved from worrying about my worth as a woman to wondering about God Himself. Honestly, I do not see how the God of the old testament is the same as Jesus. Ordering a parent to sacrifice his own child (even though the child was saved from that in the end)? Saying it was okay if a guy saw a beautiful woman, captured during war, that he wanted to sleep with so go ahead and make her your wife? Ordering children to be killed in order for nations to be wiped out? That is all so cruel, and I don’t know how it is any different than what muslims do in the name of allah. Then, it seems, Christianity goes completely 180, and Jesus comes along and He is peaceful and loving. How to see that God the Father (who appears so vengeful and hateful and fickle) and Jesus (who is loving and tender and compassionate) as the same is hard for me.
And, of course, being raised reformed, I have no idea what to do with God, the Holy Spirit. What is His purpose and how is He involved in my life? I have no idea.
All this to say, you are not alone and I will pray for you because I know how hard it is to struggle in faith.
Anonymous @ 9:33 yesterday,
Awesome post! My exact thoughts. What a bunch of fake humble bullstuff.
Deb wrote,
“I just want to know one thing. When the Calvinistas pick at their belly-buttons, is it gospel-driven?”
No. It comes from the theology of total depravity, worthless wormism, and copy-catting Puritan writers who had not much else to do I guess, those long winter nights, but mourn their state of sinfulness, remaining sin, and then write books about it.
It’s not only tangible sin they mourn. They mourn being born sinners. It’s really futile, but they don’t see that and often lose sight of Christ and the Gospel. When I got out of that environment, I felt like I didn’t know who Jesus was anymore. And honestly, I no longer did.
They turn inward “staring at their belly-buttons” incessantly, obsessively, looking for sin and bemoaning their sinful state. You can sit for weeks and months in a reformed Calvinista church and never hear the gospel of Christ or the word Jesus. They are driven to have a pure church so need to find every sin, real or imagined and become very good at beating themselves and each other up while doing so.
The gospel has nothing to do with it. Jesus came to save, give hope and life, and we are to pass on the message of hope and joy to others. Yes. Talk about sin but then, move on. Calvinistas come to search, criticize, mourn, judge and punish, and they waste inordinate amounts of time and energy kicking each other in the shins, while ignoring the world, except to occasionally look up like scuffling schoolyard bullies and proclaim loud condemnations.
No. There is nothing good-news about it.
Honestly, I do not see how the God of the old testament is the same as Jesus. Ordering a parent to sacrifice his own child (even though the child was saved from that in the end)? — No More Perfect
“Those were dark times, Harry. Dark times.”
— Hagrith
Saying it was okay if a guy saw a beautiful woman, captured during war, that he wanted to sleep with so go ahead and make her your wife? Ordering children to be killed in order for nations to be wiped out? — No More Perfect
Welcome to the world of Iron Age Semitic Tribal Warfare. Raid, Pillage, kill the men, take the women to stock your harem.
Is it just me or does anybody else see the MacDonald & Mahaney vids as reminiscent of the coneheads back in the good old days of old SNL? — Muff Potter
LET US CONSUME MASS QUANTITIES!!!
@ Nick Bulbeck
I very much appreciate your words to Looking for You – so helpful and so true!
Hi Looking for You!
I’ve missed you! I too am praying for you.
Irish, I just saw your question on another post about my…familial relations. It makes me wonder: were you in a similar set of circles?
Eagle,
I remember when you first came onto our blog. You were like a bull in a china shop. We sometimes had to bleep out certain words. 🙂
If I haven’t told you lately, I am very proud of you! You are an inspiration as you challenge those of us who profess to be followers of Jesus Christ.
Caleb W,
Sounds possible. I know someone in Challies’ circle from the circle I was in. SGF, Carey Conf. and all that.
Nevermind, if too revealing.
What a bunch of fake humble bullstuff.
Argo, I know. It’s like a high end knock off you buy for cheap on the street.
Irish, your comment at 10;54 is right on. I don’t recognize this Christianity at all. It is so foreign to my childhood. I think we would probably be accused of being “works based” Christians now. We believed that BECAUSE we were saved, we had the priviledge to help others. My mom used to always say if you ever feel sorry for yourself do something for another in worse shape than you, immediately. We were all over the place all the time doing stuff and never thought a thing of it. It was a way of life.
This Gospel contemplation navel gazing is a huge waste of time as people focus on themselves.
Years ago, I had some friends who got very involved with Piper doctrine and all they wanted to do (they were already saved!) was to “go deeper understanding their real sinfulness”. (I often thought that was sorta like making a date with Satan) Ever heard the phrase they are so heavenly minded they are no earthly good? That was sorta how they became. I was half expecting them to flog themselves but what came out of it was they started distancing themselves from their “Christian” friends who were not reformed.
If we cannot live out the faith here in some way I do often wondeer what is the point of it all? If we would, we would not need watchblogs. We would not put up with hirlings and wolves.
Argo, The sgmwikileaks docs read like cheesy fake knock offs. Little petty men with too much time, money and power. I was a bit surprised more people did not see through the fake platitudes of “I love you, brother” amoung all the back stabbing and CJ so vague you could never nail him down.
Anon 1,
Hmm, yes. You’ve said it better.
It surely crushes spirits and any joy.
An acquaintance who got out some years after me, said, “I was dying inside.”
Looking for You,
I get where you are at. Ironically, the best thing that happened to me was getting sick and not being able to be in church for almost a year. Of course the Calvinistas all took it as God’s wrath being dumped out on me.
But with no pressure from anyone, I was able to process, decompress, find the real Jesus once again and get my life back. Sometimes it still feels like trying walk in an earthquake.
Anon 1,
It is good to know others who have been through this battle and come out with faith intact. Sometimes I start to think the battle is over now, I’ll be ok, my faith is stronger than ever, only to be swallowed into another battle of doubt in another area.
Thank you for this advice: “Don’t try to engage unless you are ready.” I feel tremendous anxiety about the fact that I’m “hiding” this from everybody, been turning myself inside out trying to figure out how to explain myself. I guess my fear is that they will successfully convince me that my questions, my search to know the God who is good, are of my own rebellious imagination and not of the Holy Spirit. I do believe that I am being led by the Holy Spirit, but I also waver… and if I tell them that, I have good reason to believe I will be looked at all the more suspiciously. The Holy Spirit cannot disagree with their theology, you see. :-/ Esp. not through a woman!
numo,
You are 110% right, there is no difference. The guy (Driscoll) angers my internal guts to seething and it’s best that I just shutup before I mouth off with shit I’ll regret later.
Numo, Kathy Hickey, Jeff S, Nick Bulbeck, No More Perfect, Eagle, MM, Irish… I so wish I had time to respond to all of you. I’ve been tearing up at all your kindness and sweet words. I don’t know what I would do without this blog.
I hope I will have some time to come back later tonight. Need to make preparations for the hurricane they say is headed my way! 8-0
Yeah…their doctrine involves a LOT of equivocating. I mean, I’ve been called tedious in my theories, but these guys just spend the entire time contradicting themselves and being called geniuses for it. I’ve never seen a profession where people can get so much money and power for a.) peddling their boring and dangerous opinions that aren’t any better than anyone else b.) peddling the boring opinions of other people who have average I.Q.
“I’m correcting you; but really, I’m the one who needs more correcting than you, because I’m so proud…er, humble…I mean: proud of my humility, so they cancel themselves out, and it’s zero sum, so what I mean is that, you need to change, because I perceive your sin, even though I’m really too sinful to perceive my sin–but even though I can’t see my sin, because I’m too proud, and thus, I’m sinning, and acknowleging I’m sinning, that acknowledgment is itself sin, because I think I can see my sin, and thus, I can correct you for your sin, even though I can’t really…we are all sinners, saved by grace, and I’m the worst sinner I know, correcting you for your sins, which are less than mine, and I can’t see them for my own sins, but I’m standing in the stead, yet not I, but the Holy Spirit…so, it is not I correcting you, because I cannot do anything but sin, but the Holy Spirit, you uses me in spite of my sin, which is all I am, and so the Holy Spirit uses me, in spite of me, apart from me, to be the sinful conduit for His goodness and…uh…but for the grace of God, go I..and then you.”
-What we hear after C.J. speaks, which I don’t think he realizes.
Note to Ceej and James: You guys only think you are a lot smarter and enlightened than you really are. Trust me. That? Was not anything but average I.Q.
“I’m correcting you; but really, I’m the one who needs more correcting than you, because I’m so proud…er, humble…I mean: proud of my humility, so they cancel themselves out, and it’s zero sum, so what I mean is that, you need to change, because I perceive your sin, even though I’m really too sinful to perceive my sin–but even though I can’t see my sin, because I’m too proud, and thus, I’m sinning, and acknowleging I’m sinning, that acknowledgment is itself sin, because I think I can see my sin, and thus, I can correct you for your sin, even though I can’t really…we are all sinners, saved by grace, and I’m the worst sinner I know, correcting you for your sins, which are less than mine, and I can’t see them for my own sins, but I’m standing in the stead, yet not I, but the Holy Spirit…so, it is not I correcting you, because I cannot do anything but sin, but the Holy Spirit, you uses me in spite of my sin, which is all I am, and so the Holy Spirit uses me, in spite of me, apart from me, to be the sinful conduit for His goodness and…uh…but for the grace of God, go I..and then you.”
My brain exploded.
Ha ha…
I listened to that nonsense for 15 years in SGM. What do you think my brain looks like?LOL
Your Brain on…SGM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl5gBJGnaXs
“It can be dark when dealing with doubt.” -Eagle
Yes, it can, which is kind of where I am now. One the one hand, I am dealing with the freedom of not being bound by superficial, whacked-out ways of living – ala Doug Philips – but on the other hand, I am trying to figure out just WHO God is. It is a scary place for me. However, Eagle, I hope you find a little comfort in that you are not the only one with issues regarding Christianity. Misery loves company and all that? 😉
“Horizontal church ain’t comin’ out as the second edition. . . ” MD 1:50 in video.
Yeah, I bet MD would like that, though.
“I am dealing with the freedom of not being bound by superficial, whacked-out ways of living – ala Doug Philips.”
NMP, same here. He was a HUGE influence on the culture I’ve been part of. I only “met” him once (bad experience, though I’m certain he does not remember me or how rude he was), but he badly hurt someone close to me (and many others) and though I will never trust myself to tell their story, I can tell you that he has a deceitful tongue and a cold heart bent on destruction of others. Hearing how a man with such “perfect” theology (or so I thought at the time) could behave so terribly was one of the first doors that opened for me to begin questioning this brand of christianity. I’m just so lost now about how real christianity (if there is such a thing?) is supposed to look. I have tried to encourage my friends to tell their story but they say things like “blogs are pointless/fruitless/won’t change anyone’s mind” and “vengeance belongs to God, it’s not our place.” THey don’t see they’re still playing by his rules.
“I do talk with a couple of evangelicals including 1 “drink the kool-aid” SGM person. I guess you could say that sometimes it isn’t even talk. We bang our heads against each other. And in an effort to protect myself, some of the things I tell him are low. Just really low…”
Eagle, this is kind of my fear too in telling everyone where I’m at… the banging our heads against each other part. I know myself, and I know I’ll try to retreat back into my shell at the first sign of conflict. I am very shy and I shut down in disagreement. And if they don’t let me do that, I fear what I might say. THere were some people I was pretty nasty to when I became reformed… I don’t ever want to become that person again, not toward anyone. 🙁 I really despise the person I was under that system.
LfY,
There was a lot of dirt on Doug Phillips a few years back on the internet. And a huge war he and Matt Chauncey waged online. He was one of the ones that pioneered mediation in every “Christian” business agreement so people could not sue him and the “peacemaker mediators” helped him win every time…he sent them lots of business (wink). And he ruined quite a few people. As I recall, Joe Taylor, was one of them over the whole dinosaur thing he was so into years back.
They are little men who want to be big and revered.
Speaking of worm theology. I can still hear the voice of Todd Friel, warning Christians who struggle with any particular sin. “…you belong to the DEVIL!” Stay far away from Todd Friel and Ray Comfort. I like to say this every chance I get.
“I’m correcting you; but really, I’m the one who needs more correcting than you, because I’m so proud…er, humble…I mean: proud of my humility, so they cancel themselves out, and it’s zero sum, so what I mean is that, you need to change, because I perceive your sin, even though I’m really too sinful to perceive my sin–but even though I can’t see my sin, because I’m too proud, and thus, I’m sinning, and acknowleging I’m sinning, that acknowledgment is itself sin, because I think I can see my sin, and thus, I can correct you for your sin, even though I can’t really…we are all sinners, saved by grace, and I’m the worst sinner I know, correcting you for your sins, which are less than mine, and I can’t see them for my own sins, but I’m standing in the stead, yet not I, but the Holy Spirit…so, it is not I correcting you, because I cannot do anything but sin, but the Holy Spirit, you uses me in spite of my sin, which is all I am, and so the Holy Spirit uses me, in spite of me, apart from me, to be the sinful conduit for His goodness and…uh…but for the grace of God, go I..and then you.”
So it looks like Lawyers are not the only ones who can “Talk for three hours and say absolutely nothing.”
Hug, I am surrounded by lawyers in my family. They can make you think they are agreeing with you but there is always one small zinger in there that if you are listening closely negates all the agreement. Most folks not trained, don’t catch it. And they find themselves agreeing with something they should not.
“I’m correcting you; but really, I’m the one who needs more correcting than you, because I’m so proud…er, humble…I mean: proud of my humility, so they cancel themselves out, and it’s zero sum, so what I mean is that, you need to change, because I perceive your sin, even though I’m really too sinful to perceive my sin–but even though I can’t see my sin, because I’m too proud, and thus, I’m sinning, and acknowleging I’m sinning, that acknowledgment is itself sin, because I think I can see my sin, and thus, I can correct you for your sin, even though I can’t really…we are all sinners, saved by grace, and I’m the worst sinner I know, correcting you for your sins, which are less than mine, and I can’t see them for my own sins, but I’m standing in the stead, yet not I, but the Holy Spirit…so, it is not I correcting you, because I cannot do anything but sin, but the Holy Spirit, you uses me in spite of my sin, which is all I am, and so the Holy Spirit uses me, in spite of me, apart from me, to be the sinful conduit for His goodness and…uh…but for the grace of God, go I..and then you.”
If this person can do nothing but sin, are you sure you want to be around them without locking up your children and hiding the silver? I am still curious how one can do “nothing but sin” and yet, “be a conduit for goodness”? Don’t they cancel one another out? Or is goodness now sin? Perhaps I have that confused.
Or maybe this is how total depravity/total inability plays out? Jesus obeys for you so you can sin all you want and still be a conduit for good!!!
“Speaking of worm theology. I can still hear the voice of Todd Friel, warning Christians who struggle with any particular sin. “…you belong to the DEVIL!” Stay far away from Todd Friel and Ray Comfort. I like to say this every chance I get.”
Oasis, At least they admit there is a Devil. Most Calvinist claim God decrees the evil to happen. In fact, I hear little about Satan OR the Holy Spirit within a non celeb believer when I listen to the NC preach. It seems only the celebs have the Holy Spirit. Not the peasants.
“Thank you for this advice: “Don’t try to engage unless you are ready.” I feel tremendous anxiety about the fact that I’m “hiding” this from everybody, been turning myself inside out trying to figure out how to explain myself. I guess my fear is that they will successfully convince me that my questions, my search to know the God who is good, are of my own rebellious imagination and not of the Holy Spirit. I do believe that I am being led by the Holy Spirit, but I also waver… and if I tell them that, I have good reason to believe I will be looked at all the more suspiciously. The Holy Spirit cannot disagree with their theology, you see. :-/ Esp. not through a woman!”
LfY,
I missed this earlier. Sorry!
Do you remember I said what really helped me (and many others coming out of these systems) is to focus on the Gospels for at least 3 years? KNOW Jesus inside and out. Intimately. I cannot explain the confidence that gives one to know Who we are in Christ. But how can we when we allow others to define Him for us?
Well, I thought I would also share some proof texts that really helped me through a dark period. I don’t think I am misapplying them at all or they are out of context but others might so I call them proof texts :o)
As to “hiding” your true thoughts from people here is the one I clung to during this period:
“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces..” Matt 7
I know, I know, sounds mean. But you have to protect yourself right now. And your “pearls” are a lot like Jacob wrestling with God: I won’t let you go until you bless me! You are wrestling with God, too. It is SACRED. It is just YOU and HIM. Think of what you are going through on seeking the ONE TRUE GOD as your personal pearls. It may not work for you, but it did for me.
As far as wavering and sharing your thoughts, here is another one that really helped me. After reading over this about a zillion times, one day it slapped me upside the head:
“I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.” Matt 10
Think about in the context. Who would be the “wolves”? He was sending out the 12 to the Jews. (He tells them not to go to the Gentiles) Anyway the Roman occupiers could have cared less unless it upset their occupied peace. The wolves were most likely the Jewish Religious leaders. So be “shrewd” when dealing with “religious leaders” which is what most celeb/lord it over pastors are today. But also, be “innocent”, too. Don’t get on their level. Rise above it.
I am praying for you. Been there, done that so I know.
Those two things really helped me until I got my “see” legs, if you get my drift.
As to “hiding” your true thoughts from people here is the one I clung to during this period:
“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces..” Matt 7
This is a reeeeeaaalllllly good point.
“I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.” Matt 10
Think about in the context. Who would be the “wolves”? He was sending out the 12 to the Jews. (He tells them not to go to the Gentiles) Anyway the Roman occupiers could have cared less unless it upset their occupied peace. The wolves were most likely the Jewish Religious leaders. So be “shrewd” when dealing with “religious leaders” which is what most celeb/lord it over pastors are today. But also, be “innocent”, too. Don’t get on their level. Rise above it.
So is this.
“Oasis, At least they admit there is a Devil. Most Calvinist claim God decrees the evil to happen. In fact, I hear little about Satan OR the Holy Spirit within a non celeb believer when I listen to the NC preach. It seems only the celebs have the Holy Spirit. Not the peasants.”
Hey, Anon 1. I am here to inform you that Todd Friel and Ray Comfort, are, in fact, the Holy Spirit.
No, wait, what am I saying. The Holy Spirit, who needs the Holy Spirit when you have Todd and Ray?
Hmm, no, that’s not right… Well, they may not be the Spirit but they are not wretched worms like the rest of us, that’s for sure. Yes, they seem to prefer a slightly different, but just as destructive method of madness, or at least they did back when I was listening to their radio podcasts.
Anon1
Yes…it is completely contradictory and metaphysically impossible at its root. The theology is simply NONSENSE. That’s what my “CJ monologue” was intended to convey (and I think you ALL got it…nicely done 🙂 ).
It makes no sense. But I will admit that it presents a certain heavily alluring FACE value; and it is the ostensible beauty, the attraction to man’s humility (and in some cases, good old fashioned American guilt: YOU are soooo evil: YOU cause global warming: how dare YOU have so much when others are so destitute! How dare YOU be overweight when people in [insert name of random third world cesspool here] are starving. YOU just want OIL, you bourgeois dog! You are SOOO depraved; look in the mirror for proof of God’s disdain…what you see, THAT is what has been “spewed” from His mouth. Kneel and repent American Swine!…okay, this is just my opinion).
Anyway, when you get down to it, faith in Calvinism is merely suspension of disbelief.
Just recently in a group bible study we were admonished to be very sorry for our failures of sanctification (good works, in whatever form), and AT THE SAME TIME to be wary of the pride that comes from thinking we have anything to do with our success.
Now, think about that for a moment. I’ll wait.
Okay, now…does that make any sense at all? No! It’s nonsense. The obvious question is: how can we fail at something we can NEVER succeed at. Thus, our “failure” isn’t because we “failed”, it is simply because we ARE. We are defined by DEPRAVITY; as a function of the inexorable force of our “sin nature”. Thus, there is no US in the equation at all. US, as we know it, is merely tangential to our existence. Our sin is beyond our capacity to control, and our “good” is not us, but God.
It is a theology that destroys man’s soul first, and then the rest of him.
Argo
I have a rather simplistic view of things. We are still sinful but we are forgiven. We are given the Holy Spirit who works in us to convict us of sin. Now, the sin of which we are convicted, needs to be dealt with. But, there is still much more sin in us of which we are not aware or convicted. We do not need to be concerned about that because it is totally, absolutely and finally covered by Jesus.
i could spend all day questioning my motives, my attitude, etc and still not get to the bottom of it. That is what Jesus came to tell us. We can’t. End of sentence.
So, we respond to the Spirit, working within us and proceed. And, if we proceed, and still screw up, we are still forgven.
From my perspective, if the stories are true about SGM, and I believe that they are-too many and too consistent-sinful men have used our inability to deal with all of our sin as a hammer to hurt those under them and to protect themselves from criticicm because they can always throw “you are so sinful” card. I think people should augh at them and say “Back at ya bub, now get lost.”
Mahaney is right. He could be the worst sinner in the world.
Hug, I am surrounded by lawyers in my family. They can make you think they are agreeing with you but there is always one small zinger in there that if you are listening closely negates all the agreement. — Anon1
“It all depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is.”
In the second movie CJ and James talk about when a man is called by God to teach and lead. They say it is very important for that person to be in a church and then work their way up. Isn’t that exactly what MD didn’t do? grin.
Emmy
You know, neither did CJ and Larry. My husband remembers them from a Jesus festival when they were starting their own church.Flower power allowed them to bypass any accountability.