Day 5 and counting
Tim Challies has written a puff piece on CJ Mahaney and it was posted on The Gospel Coalition. Link.
Wikipedia defines a puff piece:
"Puff piece or fluff piece is an idiom for a journalistic form of puffery; an article or story of exaggerating praise that often ignores or downplays opposing viewpoints or evidence to the contrary."
Message to TGC and Tim Challies: It's about the alleged victims! You will not look good playing "kissy kissy" when this goes to trial.The counter is still in play since, of course, the lawsuit was not mentioned.
Update: two readers have disagreed with me. I love this sort of dialog. So, I am adding one comment here.
I know TGC still hasn't said anything about SGM, but Tim Challies (YRR blogger extraordinarie) put a blog post up yesterday that was interesting regarding CJ. It's the first time I've ever even seen sideways criticisms of him. It happened in a large way, then in a small way. The first was the whole post where Tim criticises CJ for saying stay-at-home moms have the hardest jobs. (Warning: knowing your dislike of complementarianism, you should be warned that the post is heavy in that.) It's simply unusual in the first place to see any YRR saying they disagree with CJ.
And the second is a little jab near the end where Tim makes fun of CJ for how long it actually takes him to start preaching–again noteworthy because no one says anything less that glamorous about CJ sermons. He says, "If an hour seems like a big commitment, feel free to fast forward to the 20 minute mark since the heart of the message does not begin until then; everything before that is classic C.J. preamble."
Anyway, just thought I'd share. You ask me, the wall is cracking just a hair…
Update 6:26 PM by Tikatu
Darrell Dow (Benevolent Dictator of Stuff Fundies Like) posted a serious comment on it basically asking if this was Challies’s way:
“to test the waters on how his circles are feeling about Mahaney these days”.
It was deleted within minutes.
So, readers, weigh in with your thoughts. Dee may be wrong!!
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The whole point of the piece was built around a disagreement he had with what CJ said. Not sure where the exaggerated praise/no opposing viewpoints in the wiki definition applies. Unless every article that doesn’t mention the lawsuit is now a puff piece, which of course, then you would have to hang the definition of what a puff piece is to “an idiom for a journalistic form of puffery; an article or story that mentions a person involved in a lawsuit, but doesn’t mention the lawsuit.”
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And by “hang” I meant “change” of course.
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Joey
Tim Challies is a great admirer of Mahaney.
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Joey
Read it carefully.
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I didn’t dispute whether he admired CJ or not. I said the point of the post was a disagreement with one of CJ’s points. Yes, he said listen to it, and it was helpful. But he didn’t ignore other viewpoints, the whole point was he had another viewpoint. And the comment section shows that other folks saw it that way too. The point being that, regardless of Challies affinity for CJ, this particular piece does not fit the definition of “puff” as defined in your post. The only reason I made a comment is because of the specific definition of puff you offered, and the specific post you referred to.
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Joey, all these guys fawn over each other(and dead people,lol. I just had to put that in there). It’s not hard to figure that out.
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Joey
You will see that I am giving your side of the argument some play. I may be wrong and will be interested to have the readers weigh in.
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I think it was puff in the form of “praise by faint damn”.
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It seems pretty clear to me (I have followed Challies off and on for a while – he is in my area and I used to run in circles that intersect with his circles) that this is ‘praise by faint damn’, as Arce insightfully pointed out. This is a light disagreement so Challies can say he’s not a fanboy who fawns over everything CJ does. And given the timing of this piece, and the final, chummy line about ‘classic CJ’, Mahaney is still being framed as a lovable, likeable, harmless guy. Challies does this sort of passive-aggressive thing all the time. His ‘a la carte’ section is often used to express or embed certain opinions on a variety of issues without taking full responsibility for them or having to defend them. So he’ll say, hey check out what RC Sproul Jr or Thomas Sowell have to say about Christians and economics…which is a way to agree with their far right economic positions and (and introduce others to them) without having to defend it. It is like, ‘hey, look at this interesting thing’ (unspoken: that I happen to agree with). In the same way, ‘hey, look at this helpful talk by CJ “nothing to see here” Mahaney.”
I really think, in summary, that this piece on CJ is a way to show that Challies supports him while at the same time enabling Challies to distance himself from being a complete fanboy, should time require it.
Also, Joe, NOT to mention the lawsuit – to cite and interact with CJ Mahaney right now as if NOTHING like a major newsmaking scandal is currently engulfing him is mighty suspicious. Timing is everything.
Also, a few days ago Challies posted a link to an article about the D’Souza scandal saying “While I try to guard against “sanctified gossip,” this seems like a significant story considering Dinesh D’Souza’s rising profile in the Evangelical world”. The next day he posted D’Souza’s response, questioning its wisdom.
I guess the Mahaney lawsuit is not a ‘significant story’ given Mahaney’s already high profle in the Evangelical world.
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You’ll also notice that none of the comments below the story reference the scandal. As Tikatu pointed out in the comments of “Is the Gospel Coalition Ingnoring,” at least one question about it has been posted and deleted.
I am reminded of Christopher Hitchens asking “Who will you appoint? Who is going to say, ‘I know exactly where the limit should be…I know how far you can go and I know when you’ve gone too far, and I will decide that.'” Apparently Challies thinks he is that person.
See here at the 2:20 mark – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YhEfTpCILk
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I read the Challies piece yesterday, and my gut feeling was “this is weird”. Leaving aside the heavy handed complementarianism (which, as you know, is a huge issue to me)the whole thing just felt like an exercise in hair-splitting and dancing around in circles — a piece of filibuster, if you like. Apart from “my wife doesn’t have a harder job than me”, which all sounds very childish, and not quite Challies’ usual tone, it had the feeling that he was playing some sort of obscure (or not so obscure) game, and this was the best he could come up with. It’s like an exercise in closing ranks by pretending there are no ranks (“see, we actually disagree with each other on something”, despite the fact that their point of disagreement is purely abstract and academic, compared to the huge skip load of stuff they agree on
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Caleb W said~
“Also, a few days ago Challies posted a link to an article about the D’Souza scandal saying “While I try to guard against “sanctified gossip,” this seems like a significant story considering Dinesh D’Souza’s rising profile in the Evangelical world”. The next day he posted D’Souza’s response, questioning its wisdom.’
I am sure (sarc) Challies is only following his own winsome wisdom in being “willing to remain in ignorance” with regard to the SGM lawsuit. Remember he stated that at the band of bloggers last spring in reference to the questions involving SGM, Mahaney and T4G? He lamented how we have such free access to info about so many things, and we just do not have to know everything (about SGM’s troubles was the context). You know, be willing to remain in ignorance.
But he nevertheless can continue to be the Informing The Reforming one–even those “sanctified gossip” stories about which we are supposed to be willing to remain in ignorance, aren’t we?
“I am reminded of Christopher Hitchens asking “Who will you appoint? Who is going to say, ‘I know exactly where the limit should be…I know how far you can go and I know when you’ve gone too far, and I will decide that.’” Apparently Challies thinks he is that person.”
Isn’t he supposed to be willing to remain in ignorance? He did say WE are…
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Tim Challies doesn’t get it. He simply doesn’t see how rebellious CJ Mahaney is, and how detestable SGM is to so many people. He must assume those who have big problems with Mahaney and the way he operates – penetrating himself into every area of a person’s life leaving nothing undisturbed – are just mistaken about the man and his ministry.
Challies is oblivious to the way Mahaney routinely drew attention away from the gospel and to himself. Any reference he made to his wife and family was done out of his obsessive tendency to make the outside of his cup appear pure. So he would constantly be painting a picture of his own life and marriage in such a way as to make you believe he was righteous, because he personified the man-made regulations he had established for holiness. So whenever CJ said anything like his wife’s job was harder, what Challies isn’t aware of are all the times CJ mentioned that his family was a reflection of his skill as a leader. “Her job is harder” was code for “I am such a humble man that I am willing to praise my wife, although what she does in her role is made possible through my role, and how well she does is a demonstration of my excellence as a leader.” It’s not as if Carolyn was doing anything by faith. No, what she was doing was following him.
The remarks were always self-gratifying in nature. They weren’t designed to edify those anyone listening, they were designed to make you look at him and his life. In fact, they had the effect of making everyone feel inferior to him, his wife, and his family. It was a control tactic. They elevated themselves and then used the impressions they gave of their superiority to get you to follow them, and that’s how you would bear fruit.
Its the same thing they’ll be trying to pull off in Louisville. They’ll make it appear like joining up with them will help you in serving the will of God, but what they are really after is your time and your money. “Thank you for serving!” is code for “Thank you for serving us!”
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This is a total CJ promo piece, IMO. The pretense of supposedly relevant disagreement is nothing but a vehicle to get to:
I am eager to hear from C.J.
and
C.J.’s session is definitely worth a watch (or listen), particularly if you are in pastoral ministry.
He has praised with the faintest and most innocuous of damns he could squirrel up and thus damned with the greatest condemnation he could the view that CJ is unfit for ministry.
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Gee, Caleb W., your father doesn’t happen to have been a pastor in your former circle was he?
Anyhow, glad you got out.
Re: Challies: The more I see of the new calvinistas, the more I see a snappy little dog chasing his unfortunate tail.
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“CEE JAY IS MY EDWARD CULLEN!!!!! SPARKLE SPARKLE SPARKLE SQUEEEEEEE!!!!!”
— Challies
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I used to read Challies back when blogging first started as he was an early adapter. He used to do tech stuff for other bloggers and left poor Ingrid Schlueter high and dry at Slice during a meltdown. But I can remember being freaked out at many commenters over there because it was my first real exposure to the serious Reformed movement outside the SBC. I can remember reading comments like: God is glorified and pleased as He throws babies into the fire of hell.
I am serious. People used to make such comments over there all the time to “show the Glory of God”.
I am even more amazed that no one seemed to think such beliefs from a Christian were abnormal.
That is why I have no respect for Challies. Of course, it only stands to reason he would become a pastor.
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“Challies is oblivious to the way Mahaney routinely drew attention away from the gospel and to himself.”
I don’t think he is “oblivious”, Evie. I think he agrees with it. As does Mohler, Duncan, Dever and many others. I think it is much worse than people realize….what is in their minds/hearts. They really do believe they are right, have correct doctrine and should be followed. And because they are right, whatever methods they use, are right, too.
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Anon 1,
I agree with you. It is darker than I think most realize. What they appear to be oblivious to is their own lack of humility, and empathy regarding the wreckage they leave while bulldozing through people’s lives.
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think it is much worse than people realize….what is in their minds/hearts. They really do believe they are right, have correct doctrine and should be followed. And because they are right, whatever methods they use, are right, too. — Anon1
Ah, Citizen Robespierre’s Republique of Perfect Virtue, always beckoning from the other side of the “Regrettable but Necessary” Reign of Terror. The Cause so Righteous it justifies any evil whatsoever to achieve it, the Perfect Omelette that always requires smashing more and more eggs…
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“The remarks were always self-gratifying in nature. They weren’t designed to edify those anyone listening, they were designed to make you look at him and his life. In fact, they had the effect of making everyone feel inferior to him, his wife, and his family. It was a control tactic. They elevated themselves and then used the impressions they gave of their superiority to get you to follow them, and that’s how you would bear fruit.” – Evie
Hmm….sounds remarkably like my former Word of Faith ‘pastor’…..”See how wonderfully God has blessed us? If you do what we teach you, He will bless you, too. Not working? You must be doing it wrong….where’s your Faith?”
He could spend 45 minutes taking an offering….
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Evie, you did NOT just type the word serving, did you?
Ok, I had to look it up. Every s.i.n.g.l.e. time I hear the word "serve" or "serving" used by that man, I cannot forget what I read on the SGMSurvivor site a while back.
Here ya go: http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=2192&cp=all#comment-33980 This comment is from Kris, the site owner:
But, the all-time saddest story was once told by CJ in mentioning how Carolyn used to ‘serve’ him even as she suffered from ‘morning sickness’. I’m sure her condition kept her from doing much of anything else but not this. His comments still grieve me. He chose to use it as an example about romancing your spouse. He complained how ‘unromantic’ it was that when Carolyn was pregnant, she needed to get up and ‘vomit’ after intercourse. He laughed loudly and used it as comic relief in his talk. Okay. Here his wife was so sick that all the commotion of ‘serving his needs’ made her so violently ill that she needed to flee to the bathroom to expel her dinner and he was reduced to peels of laughter as he lead the whole room to join him? His needs obviously exceed his wife’s needs. I never looked at him quite the same again.
And if you happen to check out CJ's tweets, he uses this word all the time.
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reading all that’s happening as of today in christian world…..
christian culture is nothing short of a circus! a few gracefuls on the trapeze, but clowns galore on the ground. An amazing spectacle to behold.
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Hmm, was it my bad end bold html that messed it up? Sorry, Deb and Dee! Wonder if I stick it in here if it will correct itself? Testing 123
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Julie Anne, even knowing what I know of the fanboy set, it blows my mind to think that this got a pass from the crowd. That is beyond sick, it rates as domestic violence in my book to have so psychologically overpowered his wife that he could reduce her to this. Even by the strictest complementarian standards, that is a mockery of everything marriage is supposed to be. I am beyond disgusted
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Another running wild bold faced type … Calling Dee/Deb/GBTC to the rescue …
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Sooooo . . . does having that level of detail about leaders’ sexual exploits mean that everyone should conform to that model? I imagine that attendees paid to receive this information. Good grief, can’t couples be left to figure out their own sexual identities? Or was everyone expected to perform like the leaders? Did couples now have expectations for one another that might not have been there before attending one if these conferences? This just makes me sick . . . I don’t want to know this information about every leader in SGM — ick and 2x ick.
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Just wondering … If WordPress has a comment evaluation for html code completion before accepting comments (as Blogger does), then these problems would be banished.
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Irish, the irony is the only way people can see it objectively is if they get out of the movement. It takes years to debrief from it. And what is worse, it is better if they STAY OUT OF CHURCHES for quite a few years while they seriously pray and search the Gospels to know the REAL Jesus. Not the fake one that stands behind their guru.
I am always heartbroken when they immediately want to find a church after leaving such groups. They are easy pickins but do not realize it. They go on a search for “good leaders” as if that was not their problem in the first place. If only people could know they can have anointing (1John) and be filled with the Holy Spirit: The Best Teacher.
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Everything's back to normal. I'm gradually becoming less of a techno-peasant.
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Off Topic:
But related to sexual abuse scandals that is developing … http://is.gd/HJvv23 NYT > Public Editor’s Journal [MARGARET SULLIVAN] > Times Must Aggressively Cover Mark Thompson’s Role in BBC’s Troubles
This lady has more balls than all the men in NYT and BBC combined.
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Dee,
I just had quite a chuckle.
Guess who's coming to speak at the upcomIng 20/20 Conference at SEBTS?
C.J. Mahaney
It's just 100 days away according to the countdown. The LOVEFEST continues . . .
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“does having that level of detail about leaders’ sexual exploits mean that everyone should conform to that model?”
This level of detail is called a lack of class. Period. It reminds me of something you would hear some redneck talk about in a bar. I know unbelievers who would be offended at such coarseness.
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I just read a quote today on a website called Enpowered Birth.
“The parallels between making love and giving birth are clear, not only in terms of passion and love, but also because we need essentially the same conditions for both experiences: privacy and safety.” ~Sarah Buckley
I share Lynne T’s revulsion towards CJ Mahaney’s mockery of his wife, especially during such a challenging time in any woman’s life. Pregnancy is demanding, at times overwhelming, and any husband who is not willing to lay aside his own needs in order to help his wife through it is NO husband. He’s a selfish prick.
His attitude does not surprise me, however. I was married in a SGM affiliated church, and my pastor (a sweet man who I much admired, although I disagree strongly with much of his theology) told me during my pre-marriage counselling that I was NEVER to deny my husband’s sexual advances, even if I were sick or pregnant or tired, or what have you. No excuses! My husband’s needs trumped mine, every time, all the time. Because he’s the man.
My husband, thankfully, is not a prick. When I was pregnant, he helped me. He did not demand that I take care of his “needs”. He served me by helping around the house, cooking dinner, helping me fold laundry, whatever I needed.
I feel so sorry for women who are stuck in those patriarchal marriages that devalue them as human beings and reduce them to suffering servants (for Jesus!) in their own homes.
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Deb, Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t all the main speakers EXCEPT ONE at this Baptist seminary, well, er um, BAPTISTS?
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Hmmm….reminds me of a ‘marriage seminar’ that our church had when I was still under the influence. They were, as I mentioned on another thread, Word of Faith. And they had the meetings segregated – pastor talking to the men, pastor’s wife to the women. Even the unmarried were strongly encouraged to attend. The wife decided to have a question/answer session where people put their questions anonymously in an offering plate, the she would answer. One of the questions she pulled was, “How soon after a miscarriage do I have to have sex with my husband?” The answer was a flippant, “A week or so. It’s okay to put up with a little physical discomfort to keep your husband from getting frustrated. It’s okay to heal, but don’t take too long.”
Even under the influence as I was, a piece of me broke inside, because I knew who asked the question. She had just told me a few days before about her miscarriage and she was the shiest, most uncertain woman I’ve known and she was married to an abusive meth addict….who came to the church from time to time…
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I took the Challies comment as making a point that CJ was stating that his wife's job was harder than his at that time — possibly motivated by a backhanded way to make CJ look good. In other words, the pretense of slightly disagreeing to actually highlight the apparent good attitude of CJ being humble in marriage.
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“Deb, Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t all the main speakers EXCEPT ONE at this Baptist seminary, well, er um, BAPTISTS?”
Just give it some time, Dave. Why do you think they moved to Louisville? Pretty soon there will be a REformed Charismatic shepherding cult wing of the SBC. CJ ain’t no spring chicken. And he can go out with a legacy or “merging” with the SBC. That is my prediction and I have been known to be wrong but think many arrows are pointing that way. Including the fact his son in law left CLC to attend SBTS. Somebody in SGM has to get a real education from an accredited school. :o)
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And if you happen to check out CJ’s tweets, he uses this word all the time. — Julie Anne
Shouldn’t that be “Servicing” instead of “Serving”?
But then, when you’re that Humble(TM), a woman’s only reason for existence must be as a schmuck-sheath. Whenever YOU get (Humbly) horny.
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Anon 1,
Yes. Our experience exactly.
I can see clearly now. The rain is gone.
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HUG – You’ll notice that every time someone compliments C.J.’s humility book on Twitter he responds exactly the same way: “I’m glad to hear the book served you. It was written by a proud man pursuing humility by the grace of God.” Copy and paste, copy and paste. I’m thinking maybe he could simplify things by just saying “Thank you. I’m the worst author I know.”
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HUG – – But then, when you’re that Humble(TM), a woman’s only reason for existence must be as a schmuck-sheath. Whenever YOU get (Humbly) horny.
I just snorted while laughing. You are hilarious. schmuck-sheath? hahahaha
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I find it highly ironic that the job C.J. finds “harder than his” and which Challies finds commendable in his own wife gets me labeled a “man fail” when I do it. I suppose I should have thought of that back when I, um, “chose” to become a stay-at-home-dad. I also suppose it would make these guys’ heads explode if I could explain how God has used it to teach me humility and servanthood, and how the words of Col. 3:23-24 have come alive in a setting where my talents and my gifts aren’t used and aren’t appreciated by the four 5-and-under youngsters I care for. “Daddy, I don’t know or care that you sang Mozart operas in college. I have a dirty diaper and it needs changing RIGHT NOW.” What I find so disheartening about the YRR crowd is how they really believe that God’s grace and His workings in the lives of His people can be so narrowly defined. To them, God can’t be teaching me anything or using me or reaching others through me; I’m not fulfilling my ordained “role.” Sigh. The marginalization and pigeonholing in the name of doctrine is absolutely mind-boggling sometimes.
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What bothers me the most about this CJ and expecting Carolyn to “serve” – – – is that being the head honcho – he put himself (and Carolyn) as the example before all of SGM. Can you imagine all of the care group leaders and pastors taking that little tidbit home to their pregnant wives. “Well, CJ said you get to serve me even if you don’t feel well . . . . ” And the wives must have gone through emotional turmoil, feeling guilty for not wanting to “serve” their husbands – – reducing it to a matter of sin on their part because everyone knows how sinful they are at SGM – even 2-yr olds who are sexually abused are sinful. blech!
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I don’t read this guy or really even know who he is.
I would just say that the time between now and the resolution of the lawsuit could be years away.
Mahaney fans are going to have to hedge their bets and build fire walls as the thing progresses. They will not be free to go public with full declarations until there is a clear and decisive end to this.
If I were betting, I would guess that a jury will never render a verdict in this case. The most likely outcome is that either side may have something to gain and lose in the trial, so a settlement is probably in the cards. Most settlements involve the payment of some money, and the affirmation that there is no admission of fault.
If a jury renders a verdict finding Mahaney at fault, then the members of the evangelical community will have a tough time standing by him. Right now, the only “judgment” is that Ambassadors of Reconciliation report which did not find Mahaney at fault. Evangelicals can sort of hide behind that report. A jury verdict would be an affirmative finding of wrongdoing. A settlement will be a tie, so to speak, from a PR standpoint.
The question right now is how will things be handled in the meantime. I predict that Mahaney’s star will fade a bit. There will be some “distancing.” Some of that will be sincere as people learn about the allegations. Some of that will be pure calculation.
If the lawsuit discovery were more public, it would have a greater impact. But the fact that the plaintiffs are not using their real names means that we will probably not hear much during the discovery phase. The only development we may learn is the addition of plaintiffs, if that happens.
Again, these are all guesses.
Another thing about Mahaney. Bill Clinton figured out that as the President, he could keep talking, keep working, keep emphasizing that Americans wanted him to “get back to work” etc. That realization enabled him to shape the present and the future. It really depends on whether one can be shamed.
Mahaney may figure out the same thing. If he keeps writing, talking, ministering etc., he may weather even a jury verdict. Mahaney did not commit the acts of abuse that are the genesis of the suit. The allegations are that he and his churches did not respond properly to them. He could even apologize for that if the verdict is negative, and still have a large presence. He might even write a book about how the lawsuit taught him to be more humble.
It’s all so hard to predict, but interesting to speculate and wonder what others are thinking and how they may react.
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Challies’ job can’t be too hard, seeing as how he has time to blog on anything and everything.
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Craig: “I find it highly ironic that the job C.J. finds “harder than his” and which Challies finds commendable in his own wife gets me labeled a “man fail” when I do it.”
And it goes the other way too, for these people.
If a man feels called to ministry, this is commendable. But if a woman gets that feeling, she’s being deceived.
There are different sets of rules that go with these roles. There is no “Common Law” as in, if it’s good for the goose it’s good for the gander. What they fail to see is that when you make different rules for different people, then the scales are not balanced, they are faulty. Another word for this is injustice.
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@HUG
Triggering…..triggering…..
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Anonymous, You are forgetting one small detail. Lots of info about how a “shepherding cult” operates will be forthcoming in minute detail. That is not good for Mohler. He supported it and affirmed it as “strong leadership”. He cannot plead ignorance without looking, well, ignorant.
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@ Anonymous on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 11:48 PM:
While you offer some intriguing speculation, I do believe Anon 1 at Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 12:26 AM has tipped us toward the whole truth trump card. Whether what Jesus said in the context of Matthew 12: 33-37 providentially plays out strongly and publicly now, it will surely come to pass eventually at the predetermined time: ” … But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
And there will also be a significant amount more detail processed and made public about the systems of SGM and the impact they’ve had on leaders and members. So, regardless of any distancing now and in the future from SGM as an entity or from any of the individual defendants, I do wonder if there may come a time when those outside SGM who have been effusively supportive of them in the past may find themselves required to explain such statements. No way to utterly scrub those statements from the internet … nor to fully explain away the information about SGM’s form of “shepherding” and its various results.
Also, if the additional case situations coming to light through multiple online sources alone just since the filing of the lawsuit are any indicator, it would suggest *already* that there may have been such broad systemic problems afoot that any “positive” declarations available after the lawsuit might be on subjects quite different than might otherwise be expected.
And I certainly could be wrong here, but, given the backstories of plaintiffs thus far, I don’t think I can put much stock in the idea of their accepting any settlement that includes no affirmation of fault.
Regardless of those opinions, I suspect a lot of people in all kinds of places will be watching this as it unfolds, and also paying attention to who on the inside and outside has what to say and when.
Pingback: Linkathon 10/24, part 1 » Phoenix Preacher | Phoenix Preacher
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Julie Anne said:
“What bothers me the most about this CJ and expecting Carolyn to “serve” – – – is that being the head honcho – he put himself (and Carolyn) as the example before all of SGM.”
When Dee and I went to hear CJ speak at Sovereign Grace Apex back in 2009, he actually told the congregation (about his relationship with Carolyn) “Our marriage is S-I-Z-Z-L-I-N-G!”
It was another one of his “canned” remarks, and I thought it was highly inappropriate, especially in a church setting.
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Just read the article – gotta go with “praising by faint damnation.” Challies certainly wasn’t meaningfully critical of Mahaney in any way.
BTW, everybody – please pray for those of us in New England. Some of the tracking models for the latest hurricane look pretty bad for us.
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Sorry I haven’t been able to respond since my first comment. Trying to finish season 1 of Homeland so I can catch up in the current season…
I have to admit “praise by faint damnation” is a great and amusing phrase. And if the operating assumption is that Challies was actually looking to say “nothing to see here” then I guess I can see how it could be a type of puff piece under that category. Having read Challies a long time, and seen how he has always been leery of the charismatic elements of CJ’s background, I just don’t see him as that actively invested in protecting CJ’s image.
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Deb
I wonder…has the News and Observer been alerted to this fact? Perhaps a quick note to the editor’s desk?
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Searching
I think we need to highlight that quote on our blog.
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DaveAA
So, who says CJ has “converted” and it hasn’t served him to let us know? They have had Mark Driscoll at this seminary in the past as well. If he is cool, he is in. Bag theology or hurting people.
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Jeanette
One has to wonder about the men behind the curtain making sure this advice is conveyed. For example, I would suspect that CJ has some abusive tendencies if that quote is accurate.
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asachild
I thought the same thing. I also thought it was a new plan of attack to take down women. Most guys often say that women with small children have the harder jobs. Challies is now saying “No way.I work hard too.” Just keeping women in the place, once again.
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Anon1
So, how long do you think that it will be before Al Mohler announces to the world that CJ has been working behind the scenes and now has an earned doctorate? Dr Mahaney, how CJ would love it.
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Is it wrong for me to think that a lot of these fellows have some latent homosexual tendencies with their fawning over each other, quoting men, and not knowing how to relate to women, and ahem covering one another’s asses.
Oh, yes, and hating actual honest to goodness gay people.
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Craig
Comment of the day.
You’ll notice that every time someone compliments C.J.’s humility book on Twitter he responds exactly the same way: “I’m glad to hear the book served you. It was written by a proud man pursuing humility by the grace of God.” Copy and paste, copy and paste. I’m thinking maybe he could simplify things by just saying “Thank you. I’m the worst author I know.”
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Craig
You are a man fulfilling your God ordained role. The Bible often speaks that the last will be first. I suspect that, in heaven, you might see that to be the case.
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Julie Anne
CJ believes that little children are their to “serve” him as well. Over at SGM I read stories in which shy little children were to be forced to speak nicely to the pastors and, if not, they were to be “punished.” What do you think that means in a group that believes in a liberal application of corporal punishment?
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Anonymous
I know that the comments on this blog, especially the ones which have some legal thoughts, are being shared with those involved. I appreciate your thoughts on the matter.
I do not think that this group will accept a settlement. They want a jury trial. There are so many reports of bizarre goings on in SGM that I think Mahaney’s star will fade, but so will the SGM brand name. Pedophilia does not play well on the national stage and the timing of this, on the heels of Sandusky, will hurt SGM even further. In the meantime, affilaited churches are beginning to drop like flies and the mothership is rumored to depart momentarily.
You need to get to know Challies-he is admired by a certain seminary president.
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ScotT
He toils the hardened earth with the sweat of his brow. 🙂
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Joey
I am a reader of the blogs. Challies has been a strong supported of the Mahaneys for years. Trust me, the Mahaneys have touted him on their blogs. Just google Challies and Mahaney.
As for the charismatic thing-you do know that Mahaney is a chameleon, right? If you have followed his trajectory in the past few years you will see some subtle changes. For example, he abruptly stopped calling himself “Head Apostle” after clinging to that title for years. Then slowly, but surely, the charismatic element of the worship services have been dying out.
By the time he is finished, what remains of SGM will look no different that the Reformed SBC. It might even become SBC with Mahaney achieving a doctorate from SBTS (This is a decidedly noncharismatic prophecy).
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“I don’t think I can put much stock in the idea of their accepting any settlement that includes no affirmation of fault.”
You know, some are discounting the unbelievable coverage of the fact there is such a lawsuit. Why is that? I was amazed it made the Brit Guaridan. So we are seeing major interest. This is not just a lawsuit about ‘you were mean to us’. It is about a system wide church organization whose system policy (policies are not always written but you can see a pattern)
was to protect molesters under the guise of they said sorry so there are no criminal consequences. The CHURCH was deciding OVER our own criminal law what is criminal and what wasn’t. That is serious business. This is not just ONE rogue pastor. They are telling the world that they believe criminal acts have no consequences if you “confess” them. And if you disagree and talk about it, you are the REAL sinner because you are a gossip.
This is not going to play well with any jury or the public. That is why airing this closed system is going to be a shock to some folks. What seems so normal in that closed system seems heinous and callous to the pagan
world! (They believed good was evil and evil, good)
The other thing that is not going to play well is the bizarre focus on men and serving them. Both women and children were to serve men’s needs. Everything centered around men. Very man centered religion Mahaney developed. It is going to be bizarre for folks to process taht SGM pastors told a mom to put a lock on her daughters door inside so the dad could not get in to rape her again. And for the mom to simply ahve more sex with him so he would not be tempted. (right there they do not understand at all what was going on)
And these are the “Christians” folks are to look up to???
I mean this is Papa Pilgrim stuff in the Suburbs.
I would advise people to start copying videos and web pages. Esp of Mohler and the other GC/T4G guys. I think the the scrubbing will start very soon.
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As an observer that has been reading Challies for a number of years and also has following TGC since its inception, I have to say that this is standard fare and not surprising. TGC seems to be allergic to openly and directly addressing issues related to the representatives and members of the Coalition, hiding behind the “we had private conversations” mantra to justify not outwardly disagreeing or rebuking anyone. I find this practice to be distressing and disturbing. They are more than willing to call out those outside the camp (i.e., D’Souza), but refuse to openly address things that occur within their midst. Since all of these men have very public ministries, a public rebuke in my view is appropriate. I am sure if asked they would state that they will wait until the legal process has done its work to comment, which is understandable, but I question their willingness to encourage CJ to continue on in his ministry until these issues are resolved. Its smacks of hipocrisy.
I lost faith in TGC when the Elephant Room debacle took place. I feel that this is a perfect example for why such “Coalitions” are so dangerous; and how the celebrity culture that has been proliferated is counterproductive to the work of the Church. Reputation and public image becomes more important than truth.
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Anon 1 on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 09:38 AM said: “This is not just a lawsuit about ‘you were mean to us’.”
I frequently see a “redemptive edge” in the actions and activism among those of us who have survived spiritually abusive church situations and “malignant ministers.” Yes, it is at some level “about us,” but NOT “just about us.” As we process through the horrific damage we endured, we do not others to suffer the same. So we shift from mere *intervention* in our own situations to *interception* for those immediately at risk of being abused, to *prevention* so the systems of people and policies and processes are openly healthy and non-violent in the long run. A lot of survivors with this redemptive bent toward prevention find as much tenacity to challenge abusive systems as those who benefit from those systems expend to keep themselves the power-and-pride beneficiaries of them.
Anon 1 also said, “The CHURCH was deciding OVER our own criminal law what is criminal and what wasn’t. That is serious business.” Doesn’t that mean Sovereign Grace Ministries actually acted with a passive form of anarchism or even revolutionary overthrow of civil authorities … rather than working within government as we are taught in the New Testament? Any group, religious or otherwise, that sets up an alternative to our government … well, perhaps that might explain some of the national and international interest in the story, in addition to the unfortunate but realistic parallels to the system issues of Penn State where the cover-up and the keep-quiet-or-else culture of image.
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“CJ believes that little children are their to “serve” him as well. Over at SGM I read stories in which shy little children were to be forced to speak nicely to the pastors and, if not, they were to be “punished.” What do you think that means in a group that believes in a liberal application of corporal punishment?”
Sheesh! I was a children’s librarian before I had my son. It always annoyed me that, when I had a story time with a group from a school or day care, and I asked the kids to tell me their name and someone wouldn’t, the teacher would demand, “Tell her your name!” Some young kids have a rough time when they are in a room with strangers. These days I sometimes say to a kid who is shy, “That’s OK, sometimes I’m shy too when I’m around people I don’t know.”
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On the one hand, I’ve been waiting for somebody to call out this “being a mom is the hardest job in the world” rhetoric for the lie that it is. These men saying it, like Mahaney, do NOT believe it. They don’t believe it for a moment, and it always sounds terribly condescending.
On the other hand, if my husband said to me, “I don’t think your job is harder than mine,” I’d be kind of annoyed at him. Especially if his job seemed to consist primarily of blogging.
I’m at home with a 2yo and a 1yo. It’s hard sometimes, but it’s not the hardest job in the world; I’ll take what I do over making iPhones in a Chinese factory any day. I’d take it over nearly any job, actually.
That said, I’m sure what I do–or what most of us do–is much harder than what any of these TGC men do, as their jobs seem to consist primarily of blogging, going to conferences, and drinking coffees at Starbucks, while their wives (or their wives’ hired help) deal with all the practical stuff at home.
I’m not sure if this is damning with faint praise or not, but it managed to make me feel annoyed at both Mahaney and Challies.
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Anonymous 9:47
This is a great observation.
“They are more than willing to call out those outside the camp (i.e., D’Souza), but refuse to openly address things that occur within their midst.”
Just like the Pharisees, they keep up the image that they, albeit “the worst sinners they know” hooey, are just a bit better than all the orher “worst sinners they know.” They spend a bunch of time exploring the depths of their “holding the keys of authority to the kingdom” and overlooking troubling sin in their midst. The little guy does not matter. They deliberately overlook the pain of the people with whom Jesus spent His precious time.
The only ones that matter to them are their best buddies who push their books and pay each other conference fees. Could anyone please tell me why I should not look at them as modern day Pharisees?
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Eagle
i have heard from some folks that comments were being deleted by Challies . I bet he stopped the comments because it was not reflecting well on his choice of Mahaney as his “book of the day.” Day 6!
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But on other Tim Challies entries you could at least dialog here he shut off the comments.
Too true. Insular groups like TGC are not interested in dialog on topics that are embarrassing to them. In these cases, they are only interested in spreading their own spin or ignoring it altogether without the ‘inconvenience’ of dissenting views.
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When I was at an SGM church, CJ and Carolyn came to do a marriage seminar. CJ told about how as they were checking into their hotel for the weekend, right in the lobby, he “grabbed” Carolyn’s “bottom”. If I remember right, he communicated that Carolyn was a little embarrassed but that didn’t seem to bother CJ. He said something about how he encouraged “bottom grabbing” in the Mahaney family. Of course, people in the audience laughed, but I thought it was inappropriate. CJ also told us about how sometimes when he gets home from a trip, they can’t even wait to get home to have s*x, so they stop off on the way and get a room at a hotel. No joking – he said this in mixed company! Later they split us up into men’s and women’s groups and Carolyn talked to us ladies about marital intimacy. It was embarrassing. I also remember way, way back I was at a married women’s retreat where Carolyn spoke. People submitted questions anonymously for her to answer. One lady asked, “What should I do if my husband wants oral s*x, and I am uncomfortable with it?” Carolyn’s answer: “I think you should learn to like it.”
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Can you imagine all of the care group leaders and pastors taking that little tidbit home to their pregnant wives. “Well, CJ said you get to serve me even if you don’t feel well . . . . ” — Eagle
“Pope says you gotta do it — Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!” — old Bill Cosby skit
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I am a reader of the blogs. Challies has been a strong supported of the Mahaneys for years. Trust me, the Mahaneys have touted him on their blogs. Just google Challies and Mahaney. — Dee
As in “mutual admiration/************ society”? (ed.”nicety” correction)
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Eagle
That will mean a lot of work but we shall try.
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CJ also told us about how sometimes when he gets home from a trip, they can’t even wait to get home to have s*x, so they stop off on the way and get a room at a hotel. — Moniker
This is The Humble One(TM)?
Sounds like something out of Bee Jay Driscoll.
Cee Jay, Bee Jay.
Bee Jay, Cee Jay.
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Moniker,
My initial reaction to your comment about the Mahaneys’ SEX LIFE:
They are making merchandise of something beautiful that Almighty God created, just like Mark Driscoll has done with his atrocious book Real Marriage. Of course, CJ has his own book on the topic.
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Here is what my mother told me a long time ago about these sorts of personal revelations being shared publicly: If a person is talking about it in public it means there is actually something lacking. Otherwise, they would not need to talk/brag about it.
I think we saw this with Driscoll loud and clear. CJ is a bit more subtle but perhaps he is trying to convice himself? Seriously, grown ups have no need to share such intimate details. But then, it does make money.
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Moniker,
Did you ever read C.J. Mahaney’s guest post on Joshua Harris’ website called Cravings and Conflicts? It gives a glimpse into the lives of CJ and Carolyn Mahaney as confessed by CJ himself. Here is an excerpt:
“After dinner, when Carolyn and I were alone, she humbly appealed: “Lately, I feel as if you have not been keeping me informed of various plans like you usually do.”
I wish I could tell you that I responded with humility. I wish I had heard her out and then humbly evaluated her critique, appropriately suspicious of my own heart and eager to learn from her observations. But I did not. Instead I began to question her, and rather quickly my approach came to resemble that of a prosecuting attorney. I was being misrepresented and this injustice must be righted.
Carolyn was merely trying to preserve intimacy and communication in our marriage, but in my pride I quickly became angry. Before long I had moved beyond disagreement and (since no one else was honoring me) begun to honor myself. I actually said something like, “Dear, it’s tough not to admire how effective a communicator I have been in our marriage.” I followed this up with A Brief History of Our Marriage According to C.J., featuring a number of illustrations portraying me as possibly the most communicative husband of all time. And although she expressed appreciation for what I had done in the past, Carolyn was not persuaded.
My arrogance was pronounced and my anger was escalating; but Carolyn chose to serve and not sin. In my prideful state, that was simply unacceptable. So to my shame, I made several remarks intended to provoke her to join my sinful party. I wanted her to have something to confess as well. But Carolyn wasn’t playing my game, and we ended the conversation in disagreement.
Did I then go to another room, fall to my knees, open my Bible to James 4, and repent? No, I went to our bedroom, sat down, opened my new Sports Illustrated, and dove in. But I wasn’t reading the articles. I was imagining my wife coming into the room and saying, “Love, you really are most incredible husband in all of world history. How could I have possibly criticized you in any way? Will you please forgive me?”
That’s when God, in his kindness, began to convict me. I began to see that I had brought cravings right in the front door with me that evening–cravings for my home to be primarily (if not exclusively) a place of refuge and relaxation, rather than a context in which to serve. I wanted a hassle-free evening. I wanted to be lavished with attention, affection and approval. And I’d received correction instead.
My passions were warring within me, and when they weren’t satisfied, what did I do? Because I coveted and could not obtain, I fought and quarreled. Because I desired and did not have, I sought to drag my patient, loving wife into the mire with me. In the final analysis, I was railing against God and his purposes in my life for that evening.
When the Holy Spirit clarified my sinful cravings, I saw not only that the situation was more serious than I had thought–I saw where the source and cause of this conflict truly resided. It wasn’t complicated. The problem was within me!”
Looks like things aren’t always S-I-Z-Z-L-I-N-G in the Mahaney love nest…
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By the way – I am the Anon person from 9:47…
Dee – I agree that their general attitude is much like the Pharisees, and this is what is so incredibly distressing to me.
I was a student at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School around the time that discussions about forming TGC were taking place. I recall the big meeting that took place on campus where all the heavy-hitters gathered in a room to decide what was important and needed in the church. No one was allowed in that room other than those men that would become the founding members of TGC, and discussions were not made public. It was a very interesting weekend to say the least. And while I wholeheartedly believe that the initial intentions were good, we all know that good intentions can have bad outcomes…they’re called “unintended consequences”. I believe that is what we are seeing here. It is Fundamentalism 2.0.
When I relocated to my current city, I visited a SGM church. At the time I did not know much about them, and initially liked the church. But something deep down inside told me something was very wrong. My visit to a home group heightened that feeling. After about 2 months I decided to leave the church – I cannot tell you the pressure I felt when I shared my decision with the home group. I was interrogated by everyone in the room, like I had committed a crime. At that point I knew I had done the right thing. And after reading the stories of those who were a part of SGM for longer periods, my initial gut reactions were confirmed…sadly. My heart and prayer are with those who have been hurt, and I pray fervently that the Lord would remove the blindness of those within SGM and those who would be in a position to speak firmly into the lives of CJ and his leadership. That is what is needed – circling the wagons and reinforcing the fortress does nothing but make everyone involved look complicit, approving of what is taking place by their silence.
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Deb and Anon 1 –
What’s worse is Mahaney teaches and writes about his personal life and then people think that this is what their marriage should look like. All the men go home to reproduce what CJ does and the women want to be mini Carolyn’s. It is most dangerous and destructive to share a personnel examples about marriage. At least make sure people don’t feel like they have to reproduce the exact same thing . . . but we have heard men say, “I will follow CJ as he follows Jesus.”
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I wanted to be lavished with attention, affection and approval. And I’d received correction instead.
This is very important. When a man is “lavished” with all the attention, affection, and approval from his peers and followers, he unconsciously expects the same at home. When it’s not provided in keeping with his egotistical needs, the wife becomes the enemy. She is the only one who does not appreciate him for what he is. The conflict continues as his narcissistic image of himself is damaged by one who is “commanded” to respect him.
It’s a recipe for disaster in a relationship unless the perceived enemy caves in to supply the accolades he requires.
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I’m Just Saying
Thank you so much for your thoughtful commentary. You have filled in some blanks about the founding of TGC. Then, you cleverly showed the consequences of the practices of one SGM church which is part of TGC.
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No surprise that there were blanks about the founding of TGC. The secrecy and general sense of elitism has been in place since the beginning; it’s no surprise at all that it has become their general mode of operation when trouble crops up with Coalition members.
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Ugh! Just reading all the posts are making me ill. The posts make C.J. sound like a (lots of words I can’t say on here!) My gut always told me he was bad news when I was at CLC, but I never thought it went this deep.
I’m not sure if it was on this blog or another, but I was (and still am) a single when I was at CLC. So while we were being told not to relate to members of the opposite sex, he was preaching about all this stuff. No wonder the culture of SGM was so twisted!
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I’m just sayin’
Thanks for the information about the founding of The Gospel Coalition. It seems like it’s been around for a long time, but it came into existence only five years ago. For those of you who may be interested, a 2009 Christianity Today web article entitled What’s Next for The Gospel Coalition describes its beginnings. Here is the pertinent info:
“Trinity Evangelical Divinity School professor Don Carson and Tim Keller came up with the idea for the Gospel Coalition (TGC) several years ago. They kicked it off in 2007 with a conference attended by 500. In 2008, the conference was a by-invitation-only, off-the-record meeting of the nearly 50 men on the coalition’s council. In 2009, 3,100 pre-registered and 223 walked in.
They also rolled out the Gospel Coalition Network (TGCN) on The City, a social networking site developed at Mars Hill Church in Seattle. The site will allow TGCN to approve and register members who agree with TGC’s foundation documents (including their statement of faith and “Theological Vision of Ministry”). They can then organize in geographical groups.”
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FormerCLC’er,
It’s also important to mention Josh Harris’ edict to single people – I Kissed Dating Good-bye. My heart breaks for what young people went through in SGM, particularly the mothership where CJ pastored for so long.
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I’m just sayin’,
Such secrecy reminds me of how the Danvers Statement was drafted – clandestine meetings involving some of the very same people who founded TGC.
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CJ believes that little children are their to “serve” him as well. — Dee
Considering The Humble One(TM)’s use of “serve” for “service” (in the sexual sense), I think we know how the sexual molesting began. God/CeeJay Hath Said!
Over at SGM I read stories in which shy little children were to be forced to speak nicely to the pastors and, if not, they were to be “punished.” — Dee
“Punished” as in twelve-inch glue stick or as in quarter-inch plumbing supply line?
After about 2 months I decided to leave the church – I cannot tell you the pressure I felt when I shared my decision with the home group. I was interrogated by everyone in the room, like I had committed a crime. — I’m Just Sayin’
i.e. “TRAITOR! THOUGHT-CRIMINAL! DOUBLEPLUSGOLDSTEINIST!”
It’s a recipe for disaster in a relationship unless the perceived enemy caves in to supply the accolades he requires. — Victorious
No. it’s a recipe for “WOMAN!!! DO AS I SAY OR I BEAT YOU!!!” (In a Godly and Humble(TM) way, of course.)
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Deb – It is very much like that.
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Deb and Former CLCer – this is one of the things that was very off-putting about the SGM church I briefly attended. One Sunday they had an engagement celebration during service where the engaged couple was formally announced and a group would surround a newly engaged couple and shower them with balloons and flowers. Then the congregration would pray for them. Nothing bad about that…but what I discovered later is that a single guy has to approach his home group for “permission” to court a single girl he’s interested in. The decision of whether the two are compatible would ostinsibly be made by the couple themselves, but major input would come from the couple’s home group(s), and if the leader(s) of the group(s) disagreed in anyway, the couple would be strongly influenced not to continue their relationship. I’m all for letting people speak into our lives to help see our blind spots. But it seemed more like the home group leaders had more say in whether a couple could marry than the couple…as a single woman this disturbed me greatly. I remember expressing my struggles with singleness in a group setting once and basically being told that whomever chooses to “court” me would have to pass through and be approved by the group. NO WAY!
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If CJ thinks Carolyn’s job as a SAHM is harder than his, he must think it’s really really really hard. In his blog post on “Ordinary Pastors,” he says: “Pastoral ministry should never be romanticized. It is heavy labor. One hour in the pulpit is like eight hours with a jackhammer.” http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/cj-mahaney/post/e2809cordinarye2809d-pastors.aspx
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I’m just sayin’
That is quite cultic. It sounds like something I heard from a school friend who got involved with Church of Christ where he was required by the group to stop seeing his girlfriend, also in the group.
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“Over at SGM I read stories in which shy little children were to be forced to speak nicely to the pastors and, if not, they were to be ‘punished.’ What do you think that means in a group that believes in a liberal application of corporal punishment?”
Hasn’t arch-patriarch Voddie Baucham said/implied that shyness in children is a form of “rebellion”? Cindy Kunsman mentioned this in her study on multigenerational faithfulness. Excerpt and link below.
“In context, Baucham breaks “Discipline and Training” down into components to be expected of children (and training is so directed) that I have also heard discussed in audio sermons: 1) Do What They Are Told; 2) Do It When They Are Told; 3) Do It With a Respectful Attitude. His numerous audio sermons cover this same basic content as outlined in his book. There is some variation however, wherein Baucham (between these different venues) changes examples of behavior of a two year old sticking out one’s tongue at an adult to an example used interchangeably with shy, avoidant behavior suggestive of fearfulness in a two year old. Baucham handles both examples as morally similar if not identical, both stemming from the same core sin issues – that which ultimately qualifies as willful rebellion over which a two year old should have mastery.”
http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2009/02/selfish-sin-of-shyness-deterrent-to.html
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Just to play devil’s advocate for a moment – forgive me if there is no way this is correct, as I’m not up on Challies and his connections – is it at least possible that Challies doesn’t know about the lawsuit? TGC hasn’t mentioned it for almost a week, after all, and I’m sure he doesn’t exactly visit TWW’s corner of the blogosphere on a regular basis.
Note I’m not defending Challies. He is definitely a Neo-Calvinist type and it’s pretty clear he likes Mahaney. I’m just asking the question.
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Hasn’t arch-patriarch Voddie Baucham said/implied that shyness in children is a form of “rebellion”? — Hester
Which must be “cured” via twelve-inch glue sticks and quarter-inch plumbing supply lines, wielded in such a Godly(TM) way so as to not leave marks?
Until there is no more Sin(TM) or Rebellion(TM), only “He Loves Big Brother”?
“It is not sufficient for you to Obey Big Brother, 6079 Smith W. You must LOVE Big Brother.” — Comrade O’Brian, Inner Party, Airstrip One, Oceania, 1984
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@ Moniker:
“When I was at an SGM church, CJ and Carolyn came to do a marriage seminar. CJ told about how as they were checking into their hotel for the weekend, right in the lobby, he ‘grabbed’ Carolyn’s ‘bottom.’ If I remember right, he communicated that Carolyn was a little embarrassed but that didn’t seem to bother CJ. He said something about how he encouraged ‘bottom grabbing’ in the Mahaney family. … CJ also told us about how sometimes when he gets home from a trip, they can’t even wait to get home to have s*x, so they stop off on the way and get a room at a hotel. … I also remember way, way back I was at a married women’s retreat where Carolyn spoke. People submitted questions anonymously for her to answer. One lady asked, ‘What should I do if my husband wants oral s*x, and I am uncomfortable with it?’ Carolyn’s answer: ‘I think you should learn to like it.'”
1. The family that brought us the “modesty checklist” encourages “bottom grabbing”…?
2. Why the increasing number of pastors who boast publicly about how strong their sex drives are (often in vivid detail)? And what purpose does this serve, anyway?
3. Why are women’s personal boundaries about sex consistently violated in these groups…BY OTHER WOMEN?! Would a man who had a personal boundary about sex be ordered to violate it if his wife wanted him to? My guess is no. Hello, double standard.
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FYI I asked Tim “Why insult your readers like this?” re: his Mahaney article. I will let you know when it gets pulled.
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@Deb wrote:
Moniker,
Did you ever read C.J. Mahaney’s guest post on Joshua Harris’ website called Cravings and Conflicts? It gives a glimpse into the lives of CJ and Carolyn Mahaney as confessed by CJ himself. Here is an excerpt: (snipped)
Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. At first I was going to call this “churchy” talk, but I realized that was wrong. Rather, it’s passive-aggressive junk wrapped in a religious veneer. It’s not even *real*. Reading nonsense like that makes me glad I’m hard-headed enough not to put up with men like C.J. Mahaney.
Of course, if I could pick Bible heroines to pattern myself after, it’d be Deborah for her desire to do what’s necessary despite how it looks, Jael for taking advantage of a situation that dropped into her lap and Rahab for her cunning. Of course, these ladies are not exactly at the top of the “Bible Women You Should Pattern Yourself After” list. *shrug*
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Hester – unless he’s been living under a rock, I don’t see how Challies could not. All major media oulets have reported on the story. At the very least, TGC folks have heard about it and passed it along – I don’t see how this could escape their attention.
Anonymous 1:56 – Yes it does seem cultic. I had similar encounters with the Church of Christ when I was an undergrad. Although the folks at the SGM church were not as blatant in how they presented it, the implication was definitely there, and the atomsphere of the home group was one that inspired such authoritian practices. I suppose I was sensitive to it because of my former experience with CoC in college; that’s what I believe kept me from jumping all in.
There are many things that bring me sorrow about this entire situation: I consider myself an Evangelical that leans toward a calvinstic understanding of doctrine, particularly as it pertains to salvation. I am basically on board with much of the doctrinal concerns that are espoused by TGC (I am a bit taken aback by their obsession with the Comp/Egal issue) – much of it is echos the doctrine of Trinity Divinity School and the EFCA of which I am a part. No one would argue that the church in America is a hot mess on many things – but TGC is losing its credibility to speak into that mess because they will not tend to the mess that exists within. I cannot and will not judge the motivations of any person – but we all have the ability to be decieved, to believe our own hype and get caught up in the celebrity culture that plagues all of American Christianity. And – as a former seminary student I can say that it is so easy to get sucked into the “bubble” and lose touch with what happens at ground level. I think that can happen with larger churches as well because the leaders become so far removed from the folks in the flock.
With regard to SGM – my heart aches for those who are hurt or victimized. Because my experience with them is limited, I can only say that I pray that the Lord will use this as an opportunity to truly break the hearts of these leaders and help them see the hurt they have inflicted.
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Hasn’t arch-patriarch Voddie Baucham said/implied that shyness in children is a form of “rebellion”?
First, this makes me weep, and second, I wonder about children with developmental issues in these homes.
I was, and remain, an intensely shy person in public and I’m very much a creature of routine. It takes a lot of effort for me to speak up and I really really have to think about it hard. I believe that’s part of my “high functioning autism” aka “Asperger’s Syndrome.”
If a child has difficulties in relating to other people or is simply developmentally unable to relate to other people because of something in his/her makeup, no amount of thwacking with the gluestick or plumbing line of correction is going to break her/him of it. Instead, it’s more likely to drive the poor kid even further into his/her shell.
I know my shyness drove my parents batty at times, but they never hit me for it. I’d like to give Voddie Baucham a piece of his own medicine for suggesting such a thing. (Big strong man encouraging parents to hit a defenseless child for being shy! That is sick!)
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“How long will it take for The Gospel Coalition/Al Mohler/Ligon Duncan/Mark Dever to mention the SGM/Mahaney ‘situation?’ Day 6”
Another interesting question is how long will it take Fox News Channel (which extensively publicized 2016) to mention the Dinesh D’Souza “situation”… Haven’t seen hide nor hair of it yet, at least not on TV.
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Deb on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 11:19 AM said (on the CJ):
“Did I then go to another room, fall to my knees, open my Bible to James 4, and repent? No, I went to our bedroom, sat down, opened my new Sports Illustrated, and dove in”.
Um, is your Sports Illustrated like the Australian one ie soft porn? If so, he has a hissy fit, can’t get his wife to conform so hits the Sports Illustrated in a huff?
Oh my.
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Hester: “Another interesting question is how long will it take Fox News Channel (which extensively publicized 2016) to mention the Dinesh D’Souza “situation”… Haven’t seen hide nor hair of it yet, at least not on TV.”
The only thing they did was post D’Souza’s response to the World Magazine article – and that’s all I’ve seen. I don’t expect to see anything else.
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Another interesting question is how long will it take Fox News Channel (which extensively publicized 2016) to mention the Dinesh D’Souza “situation”… Haven’t seen hide nor hair of it yet, at least not on TV. — Hester
Not News(TM). Try “Obama is The Antichrist” instead.
Spin, Spin, Spin, Spin, Spin…
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Why the increasing number of pastors who boast publicly about how strong their sex drives are (often in vivid detail)? And what purpose does this serve, anyway? — Hester
Alpha Male of a Herd, Bugling a Mating Display to attract a Harem.
Or “I Get Laid More Than You — NYAAAAH! NYAAAAAH! NYAAAAH!”
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I was, and remain, an intensely shy person in public and I’m very much a creature of routine. It takes a lot of effort for me to speak up and I really really have to think about it hard. I believe that’s part of my “high functioning autism” aka “Asperger’s Syndrome.” — Southwestern Discomfort
Though never diagnosed, I’m pretty sure I have one foot on the low end of the Aspie spectrum. Somebody I do know in PA (also never diagnosed) shows most of the symptoms of Aspergers and is literally the most shy male I have ever seen. Even Fluttershy is in-your-face compared to him. (He is also one of the greatest fantasy fiction writing talents I have ever come across, but his shyness constantly prevents him from writing.)
Problem is, the Evangelical Circus is optimized for the LOUD Used Car Salesman and Carny Barker types; everybody else (like us) gets thrown under the bus.
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So while a guy gets beaten up then he reads posts like he does above. Posts about oral sex, grabing a woman’s butt, bragging about their sex life, etc…
AND THE IRONY OF THIS SITUATION IS THAT THE GUYS WHO CONFESS THEIR DIFFICUTLY WITH REGULAR PORNOGRAGHY ARE TOLD THEY ARE THE ONES SCREWED UP.
— Eagle
And don’t forget the JUICY JUICY JUICY Testimonies on Testimony Night! And Public Confessions of JUICY JUICY JUICY Sin!
How else can the Church Ladies get their porn fix in a plausibly-deniable Godly(TM) manner?
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“Could anyone please tell me why I should not look at them as modern day Pharisees?”
I can picture in my imagination Ligon Duncan in a long robe of the very best velvet, as he walks around decreeing for us to, “ignore the assaults of the wounded” and to ignore these “self-serving and spurious accusations” and that “we have no intention whatsoever of joining in the adjudicating of this case in the realm of the internet – a practice as ugly as it is unbiblical”.
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Diane —
And I can picture Cee Jay Mahaney having his Armorbearers preceding him blowing long trumpets to announce how Humble he is.
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Haitch,
Great comment! I assume Mahaney has a subscription to Sports Illustrated. If so, what happens to the Swimsuit issue when it arrives?
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@ HUG:
“Try ‘Obama is The Antichrist’ instead.”
What I’m waiting for, if Hurricane Sandy wallops the East Coast early next week, is InfoWars to say that Obama and his Illuminati paymasters created the hurricane with their weather machines for the purpose of disrupting/delaying the election. (“There’s NEVER been a HURRICANE north of the CAROLINAS after AUGUST!!!! COINCIDENCE?!?!?!”)
It’d be a pretty stupid thing for them to say, since if Sandy hits anywhere, she will hit blue states… But the race riots and martial law predicted for this summer failed to materialize so they need something to doom about.
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@ Just Sayin’:
“The only thing they did was post D’Souza’s response to the World Magazine article – and that’s all I’ve seen.”
You mean they’re not as “fair and balanced” as they say they are?! The horror! ; )
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@ Eagle:
“So while a guy gets beaten up then he reads posts like he does above. Posts about oral sex, grabing a woman’s butt, bragging about their sex life, etc.”
And the people who write those posts never think that their “hot Christian sex” stuff may lead some of these men struggling with porn, right back into it. I mean, for Pete’s sake – I’m not against talking frankly about sex, but why do you need to brag to a crowd of people that you’re so hot for your wife that you just can’t make it back to your house from the airport?
Even arch-matriarch Debi Pearl does this. She calls having sex with her husband (apply bleach to brain here) “ministering” to him – but as if that wasn’t bad enough, she just couldn’t resist adding the little afterthought about him calling her “a mighty fine minister.”
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Maybe when you “minister” and “serve” your husband with sex it is somehow “holier than thou sex” or “holy sex!”
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RE: Moniker on Wed Oct 24,2012 at 10:50 AM,
Believe me I am no prude by even the slightest degree of definition, but what you’ve regaled us with here concerning Mahaney’s making public his sex life with his spouse, violates all bounds of propriety.
He may have tons of power and authority in Reformia, but he doesn’t have a milligram of class anywhere else.
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So how is marriage a la CJ etc different to pornography? Does being married to a woman legitimise objectifying her to a set of sexual ‘bits’ for his gratification? Do these guys ever talk about satisfying their wives? Hmmm … I’m beginning to understand the common evangelical trope of the male with uncontrollable urges and the wife who doesn’t want it. How could she when she’s treated like that? How on earth do they line up this crude, bullying alpha male behaviour with the fruit of the Spirit or the command to love? It twists my brain into a pretzel trying to imagine how they explain this as ‘humble’ behaviour!
Call it morbid curiosity, but after what was said yesterday about the Mahaneys, I wanted to know more about Caroline, so I did a bit of a scout around the girltalk blog. For someone who only knew of these people by what I’ve read here, that was an education. There’s a great long section telling women how to not sin when they’re hormonal. Huh?! As I was skimming it, I wanted to keep saying, if your hormones are making your life so difficult, go and get medical help! (I also have some big questions as to what makes the Mahaney daughters such shiny spiritual advisors?)) Right at the end of the series, Caroline actually checked with a couple of doctors (obviously tame ones) They did say that medical help was available for extreme cases (when all the spiritual exercises had failed)but the principle thrust, even of the doctors, was that PMS etc should NEVER be an excuse for sin!
These guys worship a very cruel God.
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@Hester – re: Fox News…I know…shocking…
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@ Lynne Tait: “…These guys worship a very cruel God…”
Agreed. Their god is more akin to Chemosh & Molech, certainly not the beautiful Rabbi born of Mary by no human father to crush the serpent’s head.
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Sigh….after reading that stuff about CJ’s sex life I have felt unclean all day. And incredibly thankful that no-one I know would consider having sex with their wife when she felt that unwell, or vice versa…these people have abuse down to a (pseudo-biblically justified) art form. I have no respect for these child beating, wife using ‘pastors’. How is any of that Christlike behaviour from them?
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@ Bridget~
“Maybe when you “minister” and “serve” your husband with sex it is somehow “holier than thou sex” or “holy sex!””
Weeeelllll….
Challies says, “We compromise God’s standard for sexuality when we leave the gospel out of the marriage bed”
http://www.challies.com/writings/marriage
:-/ That’s one of those cringeworthy articles you read where your eyes are wide open with embarrassment for the author and every other thought is..oh no, I did NOT just read that, did I?
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Lynne T. That reminds me of a certain Driscoll & Piper fanboy on YouTube, who basically tried to tell me that men being “expected to cut women slack” for getting away with “bloody murder” once a month because it’s a “hormone thing” is the other side of the coin to giving men slack. Their “hormone thing” that women should accept is that they are “emasculated” and do not “react well” when led by women or anyone they can beat up…
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@ Oasis:
…But when men’s naturally higher testosterone levels cause them to have a higher sex drive, the women are told to just put up with it and do whatever he asks.
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@ Diane:
Per the Challies sex article:
1. Comparing sex to communion is creepy. Period.
2. I notice he’s rather light on applying the concept of “bringing the Gospel into the marriage bed”…I wonder why… Sorry to be crude, but what he wrote there sounded like it really could lead to an article analyzing different sexual positions and how they relate to the relationship between Christ and the church.
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@ Hester~
Maybe if Challies is whacked out enough in his sin/sex/marriage teachings,
then maybe T4$ will finally reward his gospel diligence and give him a main session spot.
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@Evie “on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 07:51 PM said:”
I’m not going to repost Evie’s comment above because it was long, but as a former SGM pastor, I say what she said is brilliant. It is spot on in every way. What she said is the “pathology of praise” that goes on in SGM. I’ve thought about this for years and have never heard anything so succinct, clear, and accurate. Well played.
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@Hester: Yep, good point. That whole mentality is so nauseating/depressing/enraging etc.
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“Maybe if Challies is whacked out enough in his sin/sex/marriage teachings,
then maybe T4$ will finally reward his gospel diligence and give him a main session spot.”
Does he still live blog those conferences? He used to
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“Challies says, “We compromise God’s standard for sexuality when we leave the gospel out of the marriage bed”
I feel like I disrespected Jesus just by reading that! These guys are obsessed.
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Guys, I know quite a few YRR here who are campaigning for Obama. Why? Because Rommey is a Mormon. Yes, it stunned me. But the more I thought about it the more it made sense. Obama is more statist big gov type. The YRR tend to gravitate toward power and control stances.
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Also, Isn’t Imonk Reformed blog for the most part? Lots of Obama supporters over there.
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I feel like I disrespected Jesus just by reading that! These guys are obsessed.
I totally agree. I did mention it was cringeworthy.
He liveblogged at the last T4$. That’s where he mentioned that statement for us, “shouldn’t we be willing to remain in ignorance” (regarding the SGM scandal). Nope, not willing.
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Anon1, maybe there’s regional differences, because many of the YRR I can remember discussing politics with in the Seattle area in the last six years are into Austrian economics and libertarianism. They distrust Romney and Obama alike but prefer Ron Paul.
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Anon1, Internet Monk is more Lutheran these days. Michael stopped considering himself a Calvinist around 2007-2008 so it hasn’t even been “Reformed” as such for a while and Michael had comments from time to time about the “Truly Reformed” that would have put him off the team. He admired some people in the Reformed tradition but he was starting to find fault with Piper around the time I started even figuring out who this Piper guy was.
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WTM, How does Lutheran escape being Reformed?
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And my comment on Challies’ CJ post was deleted sometime in the last 2 hours.
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Diane “What reflects joyfully submitting to Christ [in sex]?”
Ewww. Maybe Tim secretly liked 50 Shades of Grey??
Where is the self-awareness people?
Also, Tim asserts: When we leave the gospel out of the marriage bed we are bound by law instead of free by gospel. (??) And since ‘law is always focused toward the self’ (??) we do not want that. This is made up, obviously. Of course the whole question he’s answering ‘in what areas might Christians compromise in the marriage bed’ is entirely theoretical and forced. And when you try answer a question like that, which asks you to make stuff up, well, you make stuff up.
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Umm .. the way Christians compromise in the marriage bed is by demanding their ‘needs’ get met, isn’t it?
Seriously, I don’t have the foggiest idea what he means by putting the gospel in the marriage bed, unless, for him, ‘gospel’ is shorthand for male and female roles? My own mental image is of placing tracts under the pillows, but I think I’ve missed the point. And I’ve been married over 35 years.. Obviously we’ve been doing it wrongly all this time :-<
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Lynne – I’m cracking up !
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Anon1, it depends on how you define Reformed. You may just mean anyone who isn’t Catholic or Orthodox. That’s not how everyone (or Michael Spenser, while he lived) seemed to use the term.
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@Deb – when Josh Harris came to CLC I was a single in my 30’s and the “older singles” reaction to him was interesting. Kind of like “Who is this young guy to tell us what to do?”
@I’m just sayin – when I first went to CLC it was like that, and yes it was very cultic. It got better as time went on. But still not healthy. And it does irk me how awkward they made male/female friendships while the married people were so into sex. Just weird.
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If we use the term “Reformed” to just mean Protestant than Wesleyans are “Reformed” even though Methodists would disagree with Calvinists on legions of points. 🙂
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My comment on the Challies’ post where I directly asked about his response to the lawsuit filing was there for a few minutes yesterday and then gone.
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As WTH said, “Reformed” does not equal “Reformation.”
Luther was non Calvinist by a long shot, though it’s probably best to read some of the period documents by both Luther and Melancthon than for me to even attempt any kind of summary, ’cause I’d be hopelessly out of my league (and probably unintentionally misleading) if I were to do so.
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P.s.: things like “limited atonement” are pretty much anathema to most Lutherans. My elderly mom didn’t know about so-called limited atonement until recently (when I mentioned it to her). She was utterly shocked that anyone claiming to be xtian would believe such a thing!
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“Why the increasing number of pastors who boast publicly about how strong their sex drives are (often in vivid detail)? And what purpose does this serve, anyway?” — Hester
*******************
Sexual repression for so long in christian culture, but now sex is cool in christian culture. Latent adolescence now being let out = middle age 15 year-old boys.
I roll my eyes at how dysfunctional christian culture is concerning sex and the human body. First the message is that sex is as dirty as a back alley and as dangerous as heroin, and only whores do it. Now it’s as sweet as chocolate fondue and as cool as Ray Ban sunglasses, and the in-crowd does it.
(but this new message fits the messengers about as well as Angels Flight pants and a tight shiny partly-unbuttoned shirt on a paunchy 55 year-old at a high school dance in 1978. Latent sexal revolution on the outside, awkward prudish repression on the inside)
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@ WTH, Anon 1 & Numo:
“Reformed” basically = Calvinist. In my mind I make a slight distinction, with Calvinism = TULIP and Reformed = the church practices and secondary doctrine that have accumulated around TULIP over the years. (I could be wrong on that point so if I am, please correct me.) Most people use the two terms interchangeably, though.
Lutherans are NOT Reformed and certainly not Calvinist. Tell an old school Lutheran he’s Reformed and you’ll get the earful of your life. It would be almost as bad as telling him he’s just a Catholic without the Pope.
Nowadays, though, with all these YRR dudes running around acting like Luther is “theirs,” I fear that some of the young guys at seminary may drink the Neo-Calvinist koolaid and think Lutherans ARE Reformed. For instance, a young chaplain (less than 5 years out of seminary) with a bald head and a demure-ish wife showed up at our Lutheran church recently and used the word “winsome” in Bible study. I’m still investigating whether that was a slip of the tongue or whether it meant something.
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re: Reformed— I propose a new term, “Rehformmedan”. It is to this that I suspect CJ converted, though he may have also secretly converted to be a closet Baptist. To do so, I suppose he must have somehow lost his Baptism in the Spirit, and been re-baptized in water in a non-charismatic manner.
re: the gospel in the marriage bed: tonight I will sleep with my Bible under my pillow rather than on the nightstand. Tomorrow I’ll report any biblical-bed-benefits which may have accrued! 🙂
Seriously, what they REALLY mean by the gospel in the marriage bed is this: “Authority and submission are an erotic necessity.”
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I agree that Lutherans and some 4pt Calvinists do not subscribe to Limted Atonement. But from my experience both also do not subscribe to sanctification after justification. Luther is famous for his “sin boldly” and what that means.
Do Lutherans subscribe to Penal substitutionary atonement?
And yes, many YRR are claiming Luther, strangely enough.
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Okay, a general question/musing I’ve had for a while, sort of prompted by Elastigirl’s comment about Christians being repressed sexually…
From Ephesians 5:
“But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.
For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light.”
My main concern is with “For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret.” I’ve heard many Christians claim this verse means we can’t ever talk about sex, that we can’t tell our children what goes on in the bedroom (because it is “in secret”), etc. But:
1. The Bible talks a lot about these secret, shameful things. See the Old Testament.
2. There’s no a linguistic cue in the preceding verses to indicate that these secret, shameful things are exclusively sexual – they’re just the “unfruitful works of darkness.” I assume “works of darkness” would also include theft, murder, lying, etc. So why the idea that this only applies to sexual sin? Maybe you could get it out of the references to fornication and uncleanness in the previous paragraph, but they also mention covetousness which is hardly exclusively sexual so that doesn’t really work either. Seems to me, to be consistent, that these folks should be just as uptight about tax fraud as they are about sex (it is a “work of darkness,” after all, often done secretly).
3. How are we supposed to “expose” these secret, shameful “works of darkness” if we can’t ever mention them?
4. Most importantly – a married couple having sex (let alone sex itself) is NOT a “work of darkness”! It’s a GOOD thing and God actually commanded it at creation. So to imply that this verse = no talking about sex ever seems WAY off to me.
Please somebody tell me if I’m crazy and/or give me some feedback on this one. This is one of those passages that won’t stop gnawing at my brain because I’m dissatisfied at some level with the interpretations I’ve heard thus far, and I KNOW firsthand how badly the normal interpretation plays out sometimes.
(Note: when I heard John MacArthur preach on this, he said we’re “not even supposed to talk about [sex]” and how that would “devastate our culture” (LOL – this was preached in 1979), and then he talked about the “joy of discovery” for newlyweds. But then he seemed to imply in other places that he didn’t mean ALL sex. Seemed inconsistent to me.)
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Dave, I think you nailed on what bring the gospel to the marriage bed really means. And it is just another way to elevate gender roles to salvic status.
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@ Anon 1:
As far as I know Lutherans ascribe to penal substitution (not the same thing as substitutionary atonement, I think?), not Christus Victor or the ransom theory.
Also, in the Luther I’ve read, I’ve never seen any evidence that he didn’t believe in sanctification… That “sin boldly” statement has to be weighed against his other writings where he definitely acknowledges the existence of sin and discourages it. Plus it would be pretty silly for our liturgy to start with confession and absolution every week if we thought sin stopped after justification, or still existed but wasn’t a problem anymore.
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Anon 1 – not penal substitution – substitutionary atonement, yes, but the “penal” part of it, NO.
Although the lord knows, i think the Wisconsin Synod (WELS)might subscribe to some Calvinist ideas. But keep in mind that they also have been very anti Scouting since the early 20th c., for reasons that boggle my mind. They used to excommunicate people for being involved in Scouting, and might still, for all I know.
I agree with Hester that “Reformed” = Calvinist, though that might well be an oversimplification of things. But I sure wouldn’t put Anglicans, Wesleyans, Mennonites (and related churches) etc. under the “Reformed” heading – or Pentecostals, for that matter. All are a result of the Reformation, though.
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Hester – not sanctification in the Wesleyan sense – “entire sanctification.”
Agreed that “Sin boldly” is a much-abused quote!
and look how you and I came out re. “penal substitution.” Maybe the MO Synod does teach that? It is definitely *not* accepted in the synod I belong to.
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Weleyan page on entire sanctification, which is (imo) a confusing issue. (I do not subscribe to this idea, though otherwise have a lot of respect for John Wesley.)
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I think everything you mentioned about those interpretations of the Ephesians verses comes from seeing the world through sex-colored glasses (or, fear-of-sex colored-glasses).
I’ve never heard it interpreted that way (although it doesn’t surprise me), & I’ve grown up in church — so rest assured there are multitudes of people in the christian sub-culture who would be as perplexed and annoyed as you are by that perpsective.
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Hester – I’ve *never* heard any of those ideas re. the Ephesians passage before, but – sadly – I’m not surprised that a lot of people subscribe to them.
for the record, I do not think they’re right.
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I second that. I have always assumed those verses referred to stuff like lurid celebrity gossip — where people gain pleasure from making the stories more and more deliciously scandalous, a kind of verbal pornography that gets its kicks from wallowing in every kind of evil. That has nothing to do with speaking out the truth about difficult situations, or being realistic (not voyeuristic) about the fact that we are all embodied and therefore, to varying degrees, sexual. I’m a great believer that putting sex in its rightful place stops it from spilling over into places where it doesn’t belong (like pornovisions)
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Hester,
re: exposing secret, shameful “works of darkness”—- the last time I thought long and hard uppn this passage, my specific reference was the Tim Challies blog, and their practice of hiding, deleting, and sanitizing any negative truths about CJ and SGM. I was thnking of posting more comments or emailing him after my single verse of Scripture was deleted, but then the thought struck me “have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness (which say “peace! peace!, when there is no peace”) but rather expose them.” So I did a little exposing (here). This was only tangentially about sex, since one of SGM’s works of darkness was the hiding and protecting of pedophiles.
re: talking about sex— I’m about as prudish as they come in that regard. I feel ashamed even to quote some of the things spoken from many pulpits. They’re talking about it salaciously, not frankly or matter-of-factly or sacredly or secretly (and Adam knew his wife) as the bible authors did. As two of my favorite songwriters say, “The satellites are raining down on the international room. There’s nothing secret, nothing sacred anymore”. When I was young, a Bible teacher (the best I ever knew, by the way) was making the point that true worship isn’t all about the big time of extacy on Sunday mornings. He did so by comparing worship to married love, not being all about the big ____ at the end. I blushed so hard when he said that word, I thought my face was on fire. It did make the point memorable, though. This is the man who’d presided over our wedding a few months prior.
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@ Numo:
Per the penal substitution thing, it’s entirely possible I’m misunderstanding the difference. I haven’t studied theories of the atonement as much as some other things, so feel free to enlighten me.
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@ Elastigirl & Numo:
“Hester – I’ve *never* heard any of those ideas re. the Ephesians passage before, but – sadly – I’m not surprised that a lot of people subscribe to them.”
“I’ve never heard it interpreted that way (although it doesn’t surprise me), & I’ve grown up in church — so rest assured there are multitudes of people in the christian sub-culture who would be as perplexed and annoyed as you are by that perspective.”
Wow…really? When I tried to look up more about that verse the “no talking” interpretations were the only ones I found. I never heard them in the Lutheran church, but I don’t remember any of my pastors ever doing a sermon on this exact passage either. Everyone else, though? “Done in secret” = sex. So no talky.
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@ Numo:
Yep, Lutherans definitely DON’T believe in entire sanctification! – but then, at least the way it was described on that page, I’ve never met anyone else who did either. Thanks for the link.
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Gospel marriage, as Challies called it?
The perfect Christ came to save sinners. A guy who wants a gospel marriage must be perfectly pure himself, and very rich (The son of God owns everything, as He is God). And then he must persue an ugly prostitute, and give her the choice whether to marry him or not.
Here I posted on the Challies take on Gospel marriage: http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/2012/09/23/gospel-marriage-stop-selling-the-gospel-short/
And on the Kassian take: http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/2012/08/09/gospel-sex/
But apart from his take on gospel marriage, speaking well of someone accused of protecting child molesters, who did not care about the children, is behavior that I cannot comprehend. And behavior, I may add, that would most likely decrease with more women in church leadership. Women seem to be more likely to protect children. The world needs female wisdom and leadership as much as male.
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I forgot to add that I don’t think I’m “sexually repressed” at all. Maybe this omossion means I really am repressed.
To remedy this repression, I will bring my first salacious report from our new “gospel” marital bed. The gospels (along with apostles, epistles, and apocalypse) have been in the bed for 2 hours now. Doesn’t seem to be *working* yet….. Must….call…. Tim… in morning for advice.
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Hester – I’m not as up on ideas about the atonement as I might be, but I do know this – there is no “sinners in the hand of an angry god” aspect to *any* Lutheran views of the atonement that I’ve read.
in other words, no “Jesus had to shed his blood to satisfy god-type thing, no TULIP-ish ideas at all. More like the Second Person of the trinity emptied himself, became incarnate, became like us in all things (yet without sin) because he loves us, and because all 3 Persons of the Trinity love us. “I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,” etc. etc. etc.
It’s not at all about satisfying a wrathful god. (all the lowercase gs in this post have been deliberate on my part, btw.)
The reason I asked about the LCMS and their position on the atonement is that there are major differences between them and the ELCA on a number of things – for example, the LCMS is closed communion; the ELCA is definitely *not.* When I read moderate LCMS material, I don’t see much, if anything, that I disagree with, but boy – there are some pretty hardcore LCMS types out there! (Like the Brothers of John the Steadfast.)
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Hester (again) – I think that passage can easily be understood to mean (among other things) don’t talk in a salacious way, as someone else said above.
But the idea of sex being somehow unmentionable or dirty is not something I was raised to think… like I said, I’ve never heard that passage being equated with any/all discussion of sex.
but then, I’ve never heard any Lutherans preaching about “being unequally yoked” (in the sense that evangelicals take that passage), so there you go.
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Regarding Limited Atonement, it really depends on how you define it. I think I posted this recently, but if you take the definition “sufficient for all, efficient for some”, I don’t think it’s hard to swallow. And RC Sproul implies this is the universal understanding of Limited Atonement and explicitly states that no one believes it is “sufficient for some” (which is a false statment as a google search will reveal- I accuse him of ignorance, not malice on this point). I think it is the “sufficient for some” stance that most people object to (I did, which is why I called myself a 4 pointer for years).
It’s also worth noting that Calvin never taught Limited Atonement and it’s only assumed he would have held to it.
Reformed, I think, is generally a broader term than “Calvinism”, which only refers to the doctrin of the Sovereignty of God, or Predestination. As I inderstand it, Reformed is synonymous with Covenant Theology, which is distinctly different from dispensationalism. My previous church was Calvinist but also dispensational, whereas now I go to a PCA church that is Reformed (which means I no longer hear a ton of sermons about the theological importance of modern day Israel). Traditionally infant baptism is also considered “Reformed” though I guess a lot of the new guys are moving away from that (but Alistair Begg has been around for a while preaching Reformed doctrine while not practicing infant baptism, so it’s not a totally new thing- I guess Reformed Baptists have always held that view).
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I apologize for inconsistent capitalization. I’m typing on an iPad and things come out weird.
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Hester, quoting part of your no. 4:
“4. Most importantly – a married couple having sex (let alone sex itself) is NOT a “work of darkness”! It’s a GOOD thing and God actually commanded it at creation.”
My automatic thinking that comes accompanied with sharp pains in my chest: “WHAT?! It’s NOT darkness??! How can it possibly be a GOOD thing?! How can Hester say that?? It’s not good, it’s PAIN and SORROW and DEATH!”
I’m embarrassing myself because I want to show an example of what abuse can do to a person. THIS is what it can do. I will NEVER be able to marry someone because I will NEVER be able to be a normal wife. Everyone is different, of course…but it is important to understand that when people side with, protect and champion the cause of an abuser, they do so with one who kills, steals and destroys…
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Jeff S – While I’ll freely admit that I haven’t sought out much material on – or definitions of – limited atonement, what I have read has made my hair stand on end.
It just does.not.compute from a Lutheran standpoint. But then, we don’t talk much, if at all, about predestination, either.
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Numo, all good. I’ve heard nothing about LA tha scares me- it’s always seemed to be a “let’s try to make sense of this mystery with human understanding” kind of doctrine to me- academic with no teeth. I really fail to understand how accepting or rejecting it impacts my life in any way. These days I just kind of accept it by default, because it’s easier not to think about it much and move on to issues that actually carry consequence. But since people get bent out of shape about it, I’m guessing there is some version being preached that is quite offensive that I just haven’t heard.
This is how I’ve heard it explained: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4x2zYA3Wc0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I know virtually nothing about Lutheran or Methodist theology.
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Oasis —
I’m so sorry — i’m full of feeling on your behalf. If a platitude is not altogether unacceptable, Never say never.
I often think of the Winans’ song that says “He is able to change our nature” (including those elements of our nature that have been modified due to circumstances). Yes, even these things. In the kindness and gentleness that is God alone, and institution-free.
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Oasis —
I cannot pretend to fully know the terrible darkness you have been through, but I can honour your having been there and that what was done to you was totally wrong.
In my own (very different) experience of healing from abuse I was stuck until I left the God of Calvinism behind. That God willed my abuse for his glory (I couldn’t get past that — what did that make me?) — the God I know now stands beside me and weeps with me those who hurt me will have to give account to Him. He loves me more than I ever dreamed or believed was possible, and He loves you just as much. he is the Restorer and the Healer, the Renewer of all things.
I pray that His mercy may flow through you and around you, and that from now on the tears you cry may be the ones that bring healing. You are loved.
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Jeff S – i am actually deeply troubled by pretty much all the points made by 5-point Calvinists.
Sometimes I think that people try too hard to figure out “logical” systems when it comes to faith – and i’ve gotta say that I feel uncomfortable with the YRR take on *all* of the 5 points. Really, limited atonement and irresistible grace alone don’t make any sense to me… the former seems like a formal logic problem (i.e., math-based), not so much an assessment of the NT.
but that’s just me. I’m more than happy to avoid these subjects for the remainder of my life! 🙂
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am very much of the opinion that both paradox and mystery are part of faith….
Pingback: A Puff Piece on CJ Mahaney by Tim Challies? (Post updating as we … – Charismatic Feeds
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elastigirl: Thank you… Sometimes, in a moment of weakness, I stop saying it. I will look up that song.
Lynne T: Thank you, also. I appreciate your words so very much, more than I can express at the moment. And I’m glad you ran away from Calvinism. I heard something once: “God allows us to be abused BECAUSE he loves us.” Pretty twisted/dangerous/abusive.
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They’re exactly the words abusers use — we’re doing this to hurt you because we love you!
Makes me very curious about the psychological history of leading Calvinistas
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@ Numo:
“But then, we don’t talk much, if at all, about predestination, either.”
I think this may be the root of some of the confusion so here goes (please correct me if I’m wrong). I think Luther just wasn’t as theologically precise as Calvin and the Reformed folks – for instance, about predestination, he himself admitted he couldn’t go there and discouraged other people from doing so lest they get caught in an infinite feedback loop about being elect (which is a VERY real danger that IMO, Calvinists don’t warn against enough). So when someone asks what Luther believed about predestination or any other “petal” of TULIP, it’s hard to answer the question with any certainty because he didn’t always say, and if he did, usually didn’t do it in the same way as a Calvinist.
Limited vs. universal atonement? Never even heard the question discussed, at least not in those terms. Possibly because Luther was so concerned about comforting people with the Gospel that he wouldn’t even put that idea out there. I have a feeling also that even his beliefs about total depravity aren’t the same as Calvin’s.
Basically, I’m not saying Luther didn’t know what he thought about these things. I’m saying that if he did and he thought it would make a believer doubt their salvation, he might not say it; and he wasn’t an ultra-precise logical treatise junkie like Calvin and his Reformed descendants (just look at the # of questions in the Westminster Catechism vs. Luther’s to see what I mean).
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For what it’s worth I think for people (like me) who have problems with the doctrine of limited atonement it’s not the idea, per se, that not everyone will be saved. It is the calvinistic thinking behind that that says God does not want everyone to be saved, & so not all are. That has radical implications for the character of God.
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Hester/Numo
“Sin boldly” has always been a quote that I try to live up to. By that I mean, I am fallible and sinful. I do and say things that aren’t Christlike. But, and that is a glorious but, I know the grace of Jesus. Instead of acting like the Pharisees, or like the people in the post I am about to write, I want to try to admit it. I want to show that I get it. When people look at me, I don’t want them to see some self-proclaimed “good” Christian. I want to be the type of person who so gets it. I can admit my failings to the world and say they are forgiven and by the grace of God I go on. And even here, i fail but onwards. As Aslan said “Higher up and deeper in.”
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Hester
I prefer the term “positionally holy; functionally sinful.”
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Retha
A great comment. Thanks
“But apart from his take on gospel marriage, speaking well of someone accused of protecting child molesters, who did not care about the children, is behavior that I cannot comprehend. And behavior, I may add, that would most likely decrease with more women in church leadership.”
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Numo
I attended a Missouri Synod church for 3 years while in college. The pastor allowed me, as well as a number of other college students who were not members, to take communion. Is this common?
I am afraid that I tip toward penal substitution. It seems to me that the OT narrative in regards to Temple sacrifice for the sins of the people would point toward Jesus as the final sacrifice. But, I may not be up to snuff in this area. Could you please elaborate?
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JeffS
Most Christian believe “sufficient for all, efficient for some” unless one is a universalist and we do have one or two who hang around here. I am not. I believe the objection runs in how this doctrine is muddied up with the doctrine of election. Imagine: If God chooses some for salvation than ipso facto-others are chosen for damnation. It appears that an eilte class of “the Chosen” exists and that Jesus came to die just for that chosen group. If you are not in that chosen group-you’re screwed for eternity.
It sounds like an elite country club which has a wonderful restaurant. The restaurant is only open for the ones who had the connections to get invited to the banquet. I do not accept this conclusion prefering, instead, to say emphasize that God desires that none would perish and therfore has graciously provided us with the means that all men can approach and decide.
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JeffS
Whenever i type “Wade Burlseon” it comes out “Wade Burlesque.” I must tell him one of these days.
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Lynne
A man sent me his church’s (soon to be a former church) list of rules. They say that they are there to provide “unconditional love.” Then they define love as telling you all the things wrong with you. I told the poor gent to get out and get out fast!
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Regarding whether women in leadership would be less likely to cover up child abuse, it sadly appears not. A megachurch in Tulsa pastored by a woman did not report the rape of a 13 year old girl to the police for 2 weeks while they did their own investigation (which apparently involved accusing the victims of being at fault). Five church employees (including the pastor’s son) are being prosecuted for not reporting the rape to the police. http://www.christianpost.com/news/victory-christian-center-accused-of-sex-abuse-cover-up-by-survivors-network-83748/
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Tim Challies has posted a link to an article posted yesterday by SGM Church Indiana senior pastor Mark Altrogge on “12 Things To Do When You Are Criticized”.
http://www.theblazingcenter.com/2012/10/12-things-to-do-when-youre-criticized.html
Either quite a coincidence or maybe Tim is reading here.
Under the Remember The Cross section Altrogge writes:
“Someone has said that people won’t say anything about us that the Cross hasn’t said and more, which is, we are sinners who deserve eternal punishment. So actually, anything anyone says about us is less than what the Cross has said about us.”
So-evidently–just get over it already. Criticize (expose) freely I say, because, according to this, the recipient of criticism has no right to complain about it. We all deserve hell anyway (the no victims rule–didn’t some SGM pastors use that same logic with abuse victims?) and, imo, pastors of this particular SGM stripe shouldn’t even be writing an article about how to deal with criticism because how to deal with it is–oh well, I am a sinner deserving hell, who am I to complain, I deserve so much mooooorrrrreeee– and am even sinning reading/writing an article about how to deal with criticism. I do not even deserve to write.
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I can admit my failings to the world and say they are forgiven and by the grace of God I go on. And even here, i fail but onwards. As Aslan said “Higher up and deeper in.”
Dee,
On the other thread with the Mahaney/MacDonald videos I was noticing how it seems like these men belabor everything. Then I read this from you and see a stark contrast. They do not “go on” by the grace of God or in any other way. There is no “higher up and deeper in” for them. They admit their sins are forgiven but they don’t go on. During the videos I found I wanted to say, “geesh! Get over your sinful self already!”
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Re: my comment on “He is able to chang our nature”–
Let me qualify that — what I was thinking of had to do things that are fear-based…. things that are contrary to that “fruit of the Holy Spirit”.
As to what exactly our nature is and what is change-worthy and changeable about it, that’s a can of nasty worms.
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I wonder if part of the reason why the Calvin-Arminius conversation never gets resolved (and never, ever can be) is that the questions are tainted by cultural syncretism. The issues at stake are married to a strictly Western mode of thinking that: (1) overfocuses on the individual, (2) abstracts things into separate systematized categories, and (3) seeks to align the concepts into a perfectly “logical” order (read that as *logical* for the Western mind).
It only addresses the core questions about GUILT for sin as falling short of God’s perfection, and the penalty for sin. If focuses on sin, penalty, payment, propitiation, expiation and all the other “spiritual accountant concepts” involved with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. These are not unimportant questions — but they are not the only important questions.
Guilt-based theology is so overfocused on perfecting the details of how the atonement all works, that it misses at least two other huge clusters of questions about the efficacy of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection — and these happen to be the core issues in other world cultures.
SHAME-based cultures are more relationally and communally focused. They care about “face” and “losing face” and not bringing shame to one’s family. Guilt is not so much on their spiritual radar, but start talking about how Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection restores a relationship with God as Father and returns us to a spiritual family, and you’ve got their attention.
FEAR-based cultures are concerned with spiritual powers that can overpower people. If you do not appease the powers, or if your god-idol-amulet-counterspell-shaman cannot overcome the powers that seek to harm you, then you are toast. So, in these cultures, Jesus’ defeat of death and triumph over Satan provide crucial answers to the questions they are asking.
Okay, so, I’ll go out on a limb here, not meaning to be offensive, but some might be offended at this. Any theology that focuses on only one of these three huge realms of truth, is self-focused, broken, and immature. Regardless of how many details it thinks it has figured out, it is still missing the big picture of Christ’s multifaceted work on our behalf and it will fail in reaching out cross-culturally to audiences whose cultures raise significantly different questions. If we have a more full-orbed understanding of “the gospel,” then we will find more initial connections with any person from anywhere.
Final point. Maybe this is the real kicker. The New Testament Scriptures themselves talk a lot about the Law and legalism as only being a schoolmaster that brings us to Christ. The Law/legalism can do nothing to equip us for dealing with sin. The Law and rule-based behaviors imposed beyond what God reveals as moral right and wrong keeps us in a perpetual state of immaturity. So, with the YRR, we’re typically finding chronologically immature men, using a culturally immature limited philosophy-epistemology-theology approach that overemphasizes guilt, and a relationally immature rule-bound legalistic operating system that doesn’t give grace. So … why do we expect anything other than theological constipation, emotionally immature responses, and Law-breaking actions from those all bound up in ungracious Neo-Calvinism? That’s about all they’ve got to work with …
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Wow, Brad, I think you nailed it with this: So … why do we expect anything other than theological constipation, emotionally immature responses, and Law-breaking actions from those all bound up in ungracious Neo-Calvinism? That’s about all they’ve got to work with …
And what a visual: theological constipation!!
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So, with the YRR, we’re typically finding chronologically immature men, using a culturally immature limited philosophy-epistemology-theology approach that overemphasizes guilt, and a relationally immature rule-bound legalistic operating system that doesn’t give grace. So … why do we expect anything other than theological constipation, emotionally immature responses, and Law-breaking actions from those all bound up in ungracious Neo-Calvinism? That’s about all they’ve got to work with …
Bingo.
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@ Dee:
“I attended a Missouri Synod church for 3 years while in college. The pastor allowed me, as well as a number of other college students who were not members, to take communion. Is this common?”
1. When did you go to college? The LCMS has loosened up significantly over the years so this will affect the answer.
2. Was this a campus ministry/campus chapel, or a “normal” church in town? Because sometimes chapels/campus ministries don’t have as tight of rules per this sort of thing.
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SHAME-based cultures are more relationally and communally focused. They care about “face” and “losing face” and not bringing shame to one’s family. — Brad Futurist Guy
Problem with a Shame-based Culture, Brad:
1) If nobody knows of my sin, I Am Not Shamed.
2) Dead Men Tell No Tales.
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@ HUG. Yup. Every culture-type has its own set of problems in their forms of hiding from truth, or overfocusing on a limited scope of truths.
To add to what I said earlier at 10:55 today, I do have friends who are 4-point and perhaps even 5-point Calvinists. However, they truly focus on grace as a way to *integrate* people from all cultures, rather than overfocus on soteriological details in a way that *isolates* them from people. For these friends, their emphasis is on grace is something each and every person needs (Christians included), not something that Christians have and dispense to the world of need. This shows far more maturity, wisdom, and humility than what I have seen in practice from the Neo-Calvinist/YRR types.
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Diane
Excellent comment. “So-evidently–just get over it already. Criticize (expose) freely I say, because, according to this, the recipient of criticism has no right to complain about it. We all deserve hell anyway (the no victims rule–didn’t some SGM pastors use that same logic with abuse victims?)”
This is a tactic. You can’t criticize us because we already admit that we are the worst sinners in the world. So bug off.
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anonymous
I have been known to retort to their “I am the worst sinner in the world” by saying “Fine, so you are. I am now looking for a pastor who is the 100th worst sinner in the world. ”
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Hester
This was back in the 70s and it was a real community church.
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Dee – I absolutely believe that churches which are half (or more, or slightly less, but still significantly influenced by women’s decisions) female-led will be more likely to get rid of child molesters.
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Dee, ah, I think I finally get it. It seems that the issue is with dual predestination, and limited atonement is seen as the defining doctrine. As I see it, limited atonement isn’t really the part of TULIP that is objectionable; rather I would think it would be the unconditional election part- that’s the part where we get an “elect” group. The limited atonement is just a logical working out of how that elect group is created.
I totally understand why people object to dual predestination. Its a tough idea to swallow, and even RC Sproul agrees, admitting that it caused him a great deal of grief coming to terms with it as well. I believe it for a few reasons, the first being that I really do think it’s what the Bible teaches. I could be wrong- I mean I know I have my influences, but it just seems overwhelming clear to me. The second is that in my work as a programmer, everything I create works exactly as I create it to work. Sometimes a program surprises me, but that is because my ignorance or error, not because of my lack of control over the application. In fact, without scripture my logic would lead me to hyper-Calvinism because I just don’t see how logically we can have any free will. Even if we are free agents who can choose, God can still control our conversions by showing us overwhelming proof of the Gospel- if I am constantly exposed and someone else is not and ends up in Hell, hasn’t God chosen?
But the thing is, the Bible does present people as making choices and having freewill. So while it logically doesn’t make sense to me, I have to reject hyper-Calvinism on the authority of scripture. And while predestination may not ethically make sense to me, I also have to accept it on the authority of scripture (as I read it). I acknowledge that I may be wrong, I’m doing the best I can do.
However, with all this I have one very firm conviction- the application of my belief about predestination is limited to myself. I don’t interact differently with people because of my belief about predestination, but for myself I constantly want to remember that there is nothing I can boast about in myself. I am not saved because I am better, stronger, or smarter than anyone else. And believing that DOES affect how I behave toward others, hopefully with graciousness and humility.
Anyway, I’m really not trying to convert anyone here- I know everyone has their convictions. And honestly I’m not sure it matters a whole lot if you buy predestination or not- for me, whether my belief is right or wrong, God uses it to keep me humble. Maybe God just allows the proud to believe in Calvinism in an effort to bring humility?
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@ Dee~
“Diane
Excellent comment. “So-evidently–just get over it already. Criticize (expose) freely I say, because, according to this, the recipient of criticism has no right to complain about it. We all deserve hell anyway (the no victims rule–didn’t some SGM pastors use that same logic with abuse victims?)”
This is a tactic. You can’t criticize us because we already admit that we are the worst sinners in the world. So bug off.”
Yes-and the fact that they are even writing articles about criticism and how to deal with it…how one should defend it…goes against the worm theology they teach because who are they to complain about criticism? They deserve hell. Still. Even as believers and adopted children of God.
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Retha on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 12:39 PM said:
Dee – I absolutely believe that churches which are half (or more, or slightly less, but still significantly influenced by women’s decisions) female-led will be more likely to get rid of child molesters.
Do you think that females in leadership are more likely to get rid of child molesters because there is something different about women than men in biology or culture?
Could part of it be that because they are less likely to have been raised in the “bubble” of leadership in the church or society, they are able to see the situation more from the powerless child’s point of view rather than just protecting the church’s reputation.
Women in general are more likely to be whistleblowers but most of the few in power positions do seem to handle things similarly to men in power with first thoughts of protecting position.
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I think women are just more likely to care about children. You could disagree, of course.
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Dee – can’t really answer your question about the LCMS, other than to say that I experienced pretty much the same thing in the D.C. area, back in the 80s.
The LCMS in the *Midwest* might be an altogether different story, though… I have the distinct impression that they are far more conservative out there.
The closed communion thing is not something that’s changed (iirc); I think that your experience – and mine – has a lot to do with the way the individual church approaches things. I think the more “liberal” LCMS folks just don’t pass on that info. to the more conservative bishops out in the Midwest. 😉
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Dee – I don’t think Luther subscribed to the hyper-Calvinist “God demands satisfaction!” view – which reminds me a bit of when people used to fight duels. The would demand “satisfaction” if they were insulted by another man, and call them out to fight. Some were “satisfied” by a bit of blood spilled, even by meeting at a dueling ground and going through the motions – but in most cases, someone died. (Sometimes both of the duelists.)
From our perspective today, that seems crazy, no?
Equally…. I think the paradox – for me, at least – re. Christ’s death is that, seeing that we needed to be freed, God himself became incarnate. He did not expect *us* to be able to ransom ourselves and free ourselves from sin and death. he did it for us. He did it because he loves us, not because some kind of duelists’ idea of “satisfaction” was imposed by the Father.
If you go the “penal” route, then you end up with Edwards’ furiously angry god. (Lowercase g on purpose.) I do not think that is accurate re. the nature and character of God.
And I think Brad has hit on some great points above. (Though I am not sure I entirely agree with him; that’s cool, too – we can peacefully disagree, and who knows if *I’m* right, anyway? ;))
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RE: HUG on Wed Oct 24,2012 at 02:07 PM,
You should use the nom de plume H.U.G. Goldstein and write: “The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Calvinism ~ a satirical whimsy & black comedy”
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“Sin boldly” has always been a quote that I try to live up to. By that I mean, I am fallible and sinful. I do and say things that aren’t Christlike. But, and that is a glorious but, I know the grace of Jesus. Instead of acting like the Pharisees, or like the people in the post I am about to write, I want to try to admit it. I want to show that I get it. When people look at me, I don’t want them to see some self-proclaimed “good” Christian. I want to be the type of person who so gets it. I can admit my failings to the world and say they are forgiven and by the grace of God I go on. And even here, i fail but onwards. As Aslan said “Higher up and deeper in.”
I want you to understand that I know where you are coming from. We are all sinners simply because we are born in corrupt bodies and we have bad thoughts even if we don’t “practice” sin that hurts others. The problem I have with what you have said above is that CJ can say it, too. Mohler can say it. Ed young can say it. They can say, ‘sin boldly’ and many people are wounded or taken advantage of. If I go with your explanation then what is the point of a having a watchblog because sinning boldy is to be expected from Christians. Even pastors, etc.
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Anon 1 – “Sin boldly” comes from a letter that Luther wrote – link has complete text.
here’s the relevant ‘graph, though:
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What I just posted is a different translation than the one that uses the word “boldly,” but you get the point – proof-texting, etc.
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I think the rather obvious lesson here is the “see no evil”, circle the wagons mentality common among fundamentalists. There seems to be a palpable fear that someone, somewhere, might find out that we are sinners.
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@Muff Potter –
I am glad I am not the only one who thinks HUG should write a book.
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Numo
But, I tend towards penal substitution and still end up with a loving God. I am not a fan of Edwards “Sinners in the hands of an angry god” depiction.Last night I watched a show in which a man, running for mayor, takes the rap for his campaign volunteer who stole, due to embarrassment, an item at a drug store. Wanting to protect her, he says he did it. Does that not show love in the midst of punishment?
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Anon1
I know that others misuse it. But, some sins hurt more people- drive them away from the faith and create the “nones.” Some cause pain for a lifetime such as pedophilia or spousal abuse. I do not subscribe to the “all sins are equal” clause. Some affect more people. Others affect only us. Even our laws seem to understand that. You get a fine for traffic violations and the chair for killing a policeman. The fact that someone overeats and is terribly obese is not an emphasis of mine. However, if said obese person began to preach a theology to encourage people to overeat, then it would be a concern.
CJ, Mohler and the rest understand this. They just try to play mind games to obfuscate it. However, for me, the phrase has meaning. For others, not so much.
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Dee – I understand, and used to lean more heavily to your view. In truth, I think all of the ideas about the atonement (at least, the ones I’ve read about) capture very important aspects of it – perhaps we really can’t fully grasp what happened on Calvary?
If the imagery Paul uses about the physical world being in travail is not just imaginative but literal… well, I think we have no real idea of the enormity of what took place on the cross and after.
That’s where I am now, anyway! 🙂
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LisaMarie
Loved your comment.
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Dee – my bad. I meant to say “if you go all the way on the penal route… [Edwards, etc.]”
Which is not where you – or most others – are on that issue.
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“No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.”
See, I think He payed a HUGE price so we would stop doing those things when we become New Creatures in Christ. A born again person who continues to murder? A born again practing pedophile? I am afraid NT Wright is rubbing off on me. I have always had a problem with this idea that we can reprobate and saved. I always thought we were to mature and grow in Holiness.
If what Luther says is true, why the outrage over Mahaney? It is one reason why I suggest if this is really true then we should lock up the silver and hide the children when the Christians come over/
Does this mean I believe we are sinless? Of course not. But I do believe that we start to walk in the light when we are saved. I also believe Hebrews 10 applies to us today.
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“no sin can seperate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultry thousands times each day.” If someone does these things that many times day, then this would tell me that there is no conscience there. Therefore, they are not a Christian.
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Anon1, I think the Calvinistas would agree with you that we stop doing the big sins once you are saved. The difference is that big sins according to them are more like being homosexual than molesting children.
If this were about protecting hidden homosexuals in the church, I’ll bet we’d be hearing about it on every site you could think of.
I hope that isn’t true, but I fear it is.
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“I do not subscribe to the “all sins are equal” clause. Some affect more people. Others affect only us.”
Exactly. That is why I just cannot subscribe to what Luther was teaching in totality. I admit I am not familiar with the modern Lutheran church. But I have read tons of Luther. And I was familiar with what he meant when he spoke of sinning boldly. And I understand why he was saying in that historical context. All corrective movements tend to go too far.
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JeffS
The biggest sin of all is having a woman preach!
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Stormy
Bingo! 3:46PM
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Numo
“perhaps we really can’t fully grasp what happened on Calvary?” I agree. I am grateful that it reconciled me to God. Maybe one day, we can understand more fully!
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Anon 1, Luther’s comments only really make sense if you understand his perspective on justification and salvation. For Luther, justification was a forensic act that happened at Calvary. But personal salvation is not a point in time when you say the magic Jesus prayer. Luther well assumed that there were nominal Christians who were in the throes of conversion, and who might be tempted to despair for the enormity of their sins. If you compare this with his other writings you will see that this is by no means representative of how Luther thought the Christian should live. In fact, I suspect Luther was more NT Wright than NT Wright.
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What Dr. Fundystan said!
I think folks are missing the fact that – not unlike Paul in the 1st chapters of Romans – Luther was, in that letter (the aprt I posted) exaggerating and using contradictory language for a purpose – you are reading the closing sentence of that ‘graph backwards… what he means is that the lamb of God paid a very GREAT price.
Lutehr used a lot of rhetorical techniques that are also in the NT… so maybe reading the entire letter would help? I really thought that the graph i cited would give some context, but I guess not…
anyway, Dr. Fundystan: by George, you’ve got it! (to quote professor Higgins.)
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In fact, I suspect Luther was more NT Wright than NT Wright.
Yep!
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Dee, yes. Tim Keller’s church saying the wrong words while installing a deaconess (making it an ordination rather than installation) got more play in Evangelical circles than SGM protecting child abusers and oppressing victims.
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elastigirl: I understand what you’re saying. I’m not at all sure that it would be worth attempting to win such a daunting fight. After all, I never wanted to get married until I realized it was not even an option. But to even hope for such a miraculous change, in those moments when my resolve weakens…just seems unrealistic and dangerous. Not to mention the fact that I see myself as unlovable to begin with because of issues like this. Thanks for giving me something to think about.
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RE: Hester on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 09:59 PM,
I think it’s important to remember who St. Paul wrote his letters to and how they were understood at the time he wrote them. Nothing new here, but it deserves repeating because it minimizes the amount of baggage that can be dredged up from the 1st century and made to stand as sacrosanct in our own time.
A big CAVEAT! upfront here and now: The following is Muff Potter’s opinion only and should gentle reader be made uncomfortable by it, by all means reject it and adhere to your own ethos regarding the subject.
I agree that the primary focus [in current evangelical thought] of the Pauline passages you’ve cited containing the word ‘fornication’ is “sexual sin”, almost to the exclusion of the surrounding words in surrounding passages.
‘Fornication’ was the best word the Elizabethan translators could come up with for the Greek word ‘porneia’ which meant to traffic in slaves bought and sold for pagan cultic temple worship. The context here is violence done to others via the institution of slavery in the form of non-consensual sex forced on slaves. I no longer buy into the doctrine that the passages demand an all inclusive prohibition of even mature and responsible sexual relationships outside of marriage.
Hester, elastigirl, & numo: When I was a kid, one of the banned books in the school library was “Auntie Mame: An Irreverent Escapade” by Patrick Dennis. So I went to the public library and read it on the sly in one of the back alcoves to see what the fuss was all about. Sure enough, the stage and silver screen versions had been sanitized enough to comport with 1950s sexual attitudes and mores.
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Anon1, I think the Calvinistas would agree with you that we stop doing the big sins once you are saved. The difference is that big sins according to them are more like being homosexual than molesting children. — JeffS
Don’t forget Uppity Wimmen. That’s a bigger sin than homosexuality.
There seems to be at least some tolerance for same-sex child-molesting. Not as much tolerance as for opposite-sex, but it’s there. Either NAMBLA’s gone syncretic or it’s not homosexuality if the kid hasn’t hit puberty. (You find similar attitudes in sects of Afghani Islam.)
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Hi, Muff.
Interesting. One thing is clear to me — church gets so involved in people’s personal lives that there is little mental space or time left to consider treating the text with critical and intellectual justice — beyond what they are fed by church leaders.
I think what also factors in are (1) people are tired from life in general. If one can pray and read the bible casually in their spare time, that is reaching the established gold star ideal.
(2) Everything about life — every product one can buy — is based on what is quick, easy, and convenient. We expect what we read to be intuitive and immediately understood, and so we read the bible in the same way we read People magazine, Women’s Health magazine, Time magazine, etc.
In short, we have time & energy to pursue knowing God through a variety of convenient and readily available means. But not through intellectual rigor.
Church industry knows this, and so it produces the same quick, easy, and convenient methods just like all other industries.
And convenience extends into the management methods employed by church leaders. Keeping people on the same intellectual level, all feeding on the same conclusions together, is manageable. Different conclusions through honest personal inquiry, intellectually justified, is a problem for church leaders. VERY inconvenient.
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Hi, Oasis.
I know unsolicited advice can add to the burden and be simply annoying and antagonizing. Please forgive me in all this.
I hope for peace and happiness for you, just as I hope for it for myself and my family, knowing it does not come in any sort of uniform to fit one’s life into.
Also knowing that happiness is a perfectly healthy thing to have and to want — like the desire for warm sunshine on one’s skin, healthy food, clean air to breath and clean, cold water to drink. There is nothing unchristian, unJesus, unGod, unHoly Spirit about happiness. It is not a worldly, secular, unsanctified substitute for “joy”. It is a good and basic thing.
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“Don’t forget Uppity Wimmen. That’s a bigger sin than homosexuality.
There seems to be at least some tolerance for same-sex child-molesting. Not as much tolerance as for opposite-sex, but it’s there. Either NAMBLA’s gone syncretic or it’s not homosexuality if the kid hasn’t hit puberty. (You find similar attitudes in sects of Afghani Islam.)”
this is so true and something I just do not get. Is it that children are less valuable? But if it is two grown men it is worse? But a little boy is understandable? How sick can these “great men of God”, get?
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” In fact, I suspect Luther was more NT Wright than NT Wright.”
Not seeing that at all. Perhaps not looking for it? I cannot imagine NT Wright even uttering the words and concepts I have seen from Luther concerning the peasants, Jews, women, social statras, etc. All those things were driven by his beliefs. Then again other theologians have surprised me, so who knows?
Have you listened to Wright’s “After you believe”? I cannot imagine Luther would agree at all.
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There is nothing unchristian, unJesus, unGod, unHoly Spirit about happiness. It is not a worldly, secular, unsanctified substitute for “joy”. It is a good and basic thing. — Elastigirl
In my experience “JOY (Christianese Definition)” is too much like the Joyful Enthusiasm of North Koreans. Nothing happy, nothing pleasant, only the Joy Joy Joy of “He Loved Big Brother.”
this is so true and something I just do not get. Is it that children are less valuable? But if it is two grown men it is worse? But a little boy is understandable? How sick can these “great men of God”, get? — Anon1
“TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED! DO MY PROPHET NO HARM!”
— Benny Hinn
(Followed with imprecatory prayer for cancer, death, and damnation)
“All Animals are Equal. But Some Are More Equal Than Others.”
— G.Orwell, Animal Farm
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“…Also knowing that happiness is a perfectly healthy thing to have and to want — like the desire for warm sunshine on one’s skin, healthy food, clean air to breath and clean, cold water to drink. There is nothing unchristian, unJesus, unGod, unHoly Spirit about happiness. It is not a worldly, secular, unsanctified substitute for “joy”. It is a good and basic thing…”
AMEN elastigirl! The writer of the book of Ecclesiastes commends and reiterates this very thing 4 times as one of the purposes of humankind under the auspices of the Almighty.
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Hi, elastigirl! No, no, you’re not annoying me at all! My feelings and thoughts are very complicated, contradictory and conflicted. I appreciate your advice very much, and treasure it. Thank you!
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Hi, Oasis.
“Complicated Contradictory and Conflited” — that sounds like one of my identities (you should see the supersuit for that one!). But since that wouldn’t fit on a signature line, i usually just shorten it to I. Am Weird. Yes, you can call me Ms. Weird.
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Ms. Weird, honored to meet someone with such high levels of weirdness, possessing such a great and glorious name, haha… 🙂
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“When the going gets weird,
The weird turn pro.”
— Hunter S Thompson
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HUug: Love it!
When the going gets weird,
The weird turn pro.”
– Hunter S Thompson