“Judge” Not Lest Ye Be Judged

Posted on by November 3, 2011avatar

"And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord."

Ephesians 6:4 NKJV

 

http://www.domesticviolencenomore.com/

 

 

Several weeks ago we received a message on The Wartburg Watch HOTLINE from a caller in Canada. She was terribly disturbed that so-called spiritual leaders in America like Michael Pearl are instructing parents to beat (spank) their children. I returned the call and had a wonderful conversation with Cathi, a Christian mom who lives in Manitoba. 

Cathi maintains a website that warns her readers about the Pearls. Since we have previously written on this topic here at TWW, she wanted to know what Americans — particularly pastors — are doing to address concerns with the Pearls’ teaching on child discipline. I informed her that it seems the vast majority of pastors are not willing to speak out about the Pearls, probably for fear of being sued. I then told Kathy that the secular media appear to be the primary voices sounding the alarm about the Pearls’ To Train Up a Child methodologies.

To prove just how reluctant American pastors appear to be in rocking the boat, we share the following example.  We were contacted via e-mail by a megachurch pastor about one of our posts.  In our response to him, we asked this pastor to consider removing a certain book from his recommended reading list.  That book was On Becoming Babywise by Gary Ezzo.  Ezzo is another questionable "authority" on childrearing.  In fact, he had been roundly criticized by some high-profile leaders like John MacArthur, who was at one time Ezzo's pastor.  What was this megapastor's response to our request?  He accused us of character assassination!  If this pastor's response is any indication of how American clergy view potential child abuse issues then we are in BIG TROUBLE!

Getting back to my enjoyable dialogue with Cathi, she called us after learning about the brutal beating of a child in California who died at the hands of her parents and then reading our post — Are Plumbing Lines Weapons of Child Destruction?

Here is what happened, according to CBS News:

“Prosecutors say that earlier this month Kevin and Elizabeth Schatz of Paradise, Calif., beat their 7-year-old daughter to death with quarter-inch plastic tubing because she mispronounced a word. They say the girl's parents held her down and whipped her for hours causing massive tissue damage that resulted in her death.”

Tragically, another child died over the summer near Seattle, Washington.   Larry and Carri Williams, who already had six children, adopted a boy and a girl from Ethiopia.  Their adopted daughter Hana died a painful death, and the parents have been arrested according to this Huffington Post article:  Religion And Discipline: Report Explores Punishing Children In The Name Of Religion (link)

Here is an excerpt:

"Last month, Larry and Carri Williams were arrested and charged with homicide by abuse in Washington after their adopted daughter Hana was found naked and unconscious in the family's yard and pronounced dead at the hospital, the Skagit Vallery Herald reports. Hana, 13, showed signs of physical abuse and malnutrition, which were thought to have contributed to her death."

We encourage you to read this article and watch the CNN interview that has been embedded.  Beginning at the four minute mark you will hear the prosecuting attorney in the Schatz trial explain that he believes the Pearl material influenced them.  Immediately following this clip is Michael Pearl listing various items parents should use to discipline their children, specifically:  a belt, a wooden spoon, or a plumbing supply line.

If you haven't done so, please read out post about the use of devices like plumbing lines to beat children into submission.  Why plumbing lines?  They leave few, if any, marks but hurt terribly!  We dare you to go a hardware store, buy a foot or two of it like Dee did, and swat yourself with it.  Where did the Schatz parents get the idea to use plumbing lines to discipline their parents?  Most likely the Pearls.

As I was finishing up this post, I couldn't believe my eyes when I logged onto the internet and saw this Forbes headline:  On Judge William Adams Beating His Daughter and Internet Revenge. (link)

"They say revenge is best served cold. In the case of Hillary Adams, a Texas woman who recently posted a very disturbing video of her father violently beating her, the revenge nearly has freezer burn.

The video of the abuse was made in 2004. Adams posted it last week on YouTube explaining that her father “took a belt to his own teenage daughter as punishment for using the internet to acquire music and games that were unavailable for legal purchase at the time.” Her father is not just your average abusive Texan. William Adams is a public figure, an Aransas County Court-at-Law judge.

The video went viral after she posted it to Reddit, a site where users would be especially sympathetic to a judge’s corporal punishment for illegal downloading. Redditors launched a vigilante campaign, posting numbers for local law enforcement and media outlets (as well as pranking the judge by ordering pizzas to his home). From there, the horrific video gained national attention within a day, from blogs as well as local media in Texas. The sheriff’s office is now launching an investigation."

The Huffington Post just published this article:  Judge William Adams Beating Of Teen With Cerebral Palsy Sparks Outrage. (link)

That article begins as follows:

"Police in Rockport, Texas, have started an investigation after the alarming circulation of a video depicting the brutal abuse of a teenager with disabilities that was uploaded onto Reddit and YouTube.

Authorities are checking the veracity of the video and trying to determine whether a local judge was involved, they reported on Wednesday.

"We were made aware of the video last night and it has been assigned to our criminal investigation division. An investigation is ongoing at this time," Rockport Police Chief Tim Jayroe told The Huffington Post.

The seven-and-a-half minute clip, which has nearly a half-million views, shows a teenage girl being brutally beaten with belts by an older male and female. According to a description of the clip, the girl has ataxic cerebral palsy and is being punished for "using the Internet to acquire music and games that were unavailable for legal purchase" at the time."

If a picture is worth a thousand words, then what is a seven-and-a-half minute video of child beating worth?  You be the "JUDGE".  Now that this video has gone viral, there have been close to a million views in a short period of time.  We made an editorial decision to include this upsetting video. 

Just as pregnancy support centers show expectant mothers an ultrasound of their developing baby in order to convince them of the humanity of their child, we want American pastors and fellow Christians to understand just how serious child abuse is.  It's one thing to talk about using a belt to discipline a child; it's quite another to actually see it.

WARNING!  Extremely Graphic Material.  View with caution. 

 

 

 

Lydia's Corner:    2 Chronicles 29:1-36    Romans 14:1-23    Psalm 24:1-10    Proverbs 20:12

Comments

“Judge” Not Lest Ye Be Judged — 59 Comments

  2. I’m surprised at the tendency I’m seeing in pockets online to blame and condemn the victims.

    I’m surprised at how unaware many commenters are about the effects of domestic abuse, the types of child abuse and the ways out of abuse.

    While worldwide the outrage is being directed where it needs to be, there is a disturbing undercurrent coming out of US comments.

    I’m left wondering if beating children is more socially acceptable south of the border.

    I’ve posted about Hillary Adams, her mom and dad, and I can’t sleep. I suspect the post will get comments, but I don’t think I’ll see the blame the victim ones I’m seeing elsewhere.

    This came to my attention because of CTV National News.

    I’m not seeing the blame the victim or it’s no big deal in Canada, the UK, Australia and NZ that I’m seeing south of the border.

    It’s the internet, not an environment known for empathy, but some of the desensitization and comparisons (i.e.; I got beaten worse) is almost scary.

    When I read some hometown comments where people would not believe that was the judge in the video, I had to get up and go for a walk.

    It will be interesting to see the comments under the post over at my blog, if people stop to comment. I want to be wrong that the derision toward the daughter is mostly coming from the US…but there are cultural things at play I’ve not got a grasp of.

  3. The beating on this video is absolutely horrendous, but the language of this judge is even more disturbing to me.

  4. In an effort to keep you informed, here is some of the press coverage on the developing story of Judge William Adams and the video that has gone viral.

    Kiii TV Report – Aransas County Reaction to Alleged Jude Adams Video

    Police Investigate Judge William Adams over Youtube Video of Beating

    KRIS TV Report

    The KRIS TV report features a brief interview with the Hillary Adams, the daughter in the video. There is also a video of Judge Adams being confronted by a reporter and responding “It looks worse than it is.”

  5. I now have three kids, with number five on the way (not a typo).

    The eldest is 14 1/2. When he was much younger, he did something incredibly naughty. I don’t remember what it was, but I do remember that I felt it justified the belt. My wife got between me and him, and refused to let me use the belt on him. I eventually relented, but my dad used the belt on me (and a fiberglass CB radio aerial for a while), and it didn’t do any lasting damage to me… Did it?

    Older now, and a hell of a lot wiser, I’m glad she stepped in. I’m glad she stood up to my statement that the kids had to fear me to respect me. They don’t fear me. They do seem to respect me, even without me ever using the belt on them.

    I saw that video tonight. Suddenly I remember the unadulterated fear, as my father took the belt to me. The terror… And oh how I hated him afterwards. He was never that brutal (only once did it exceed 6 hits), and never after I hit my teens, but I suspect he’d already broken my spirit by that stage.

    And now… Tonight I am so very thankful that my wife stepped in all those years ago.

  6. In my opinion (and I hold it strongly; that’s code for I won’t debate this issue with anyone…you won’t change my mind; I don’t hold very many positions that I cannot be moved on, but hitting children is one, so don’t bother, I’ll never move on this issue)is that modern day churches, especially Calvanista groups, place an extreme and disproportional amount of emphasis on spanking as discipline. You’d almost think that, to them, it’s the only form of discipline that is biblical. Therefore, families that hold to this mindset spank for absolutely EVERYTHING…even, like, not finishing your peas (why not just say, fine, don’t eat your peas, but then no dessert?). I simply cannot wrap my head around this thinking? Hitting a child is a very serious action, and to see so many Christian parents so blase about it concerns me greatly. In addition, they can never see the fact that “the rod” can be, and many times is a metaphorical term in the bible. When the Bible speaks of God bringing the “rod” of His wrath to Israel, does the Bible mean a literal big giant stick out of the sky taking swipes back and forth across the horizon? Of course not, it means some form of discipline, which manifests itself in many various ways in the Bible. I like to ask this question to those who view the “rod” as absolutely literal. I say, “What do you use to spank your child?” Most often it’s NOT a rod! A rod is, biblically speaking, a wooden stick of some kind. But parents use spoons, plumbers lines, glue sticks, etc. So, let me get this straight, you adhere to a literal interpretation of “rod”, and yet you don’t actually use a rod. So, you agree that the term “rod” can be metaphorical for something else. So, you see, they are sort of hypocrites. How come they can view “rod” as metaphorical in the NOUN sense, but I cannot view it as metaphorical in the “VERB” sense, meaing, to “use the rod” is to simply discipline your children in some way that produces obedience and respect for parents, siblings, authorities, God, to be good citizens, to not be criminals, etc. Does that make sense?

  7. The rod in one commentary I read meant holding up a standard. The rod was often used by shepherds to see how sheep were measuring up. Withholding the rod could indeed mean to not have standards or expectations. A really good standard that God puts on my mind when disciplining is “judge not lest ye be judge.” That whole verse was directed to the audience to consider the manner in which they would like correction.

  8. Warwick
    That was one of the best comments I have ever read. Thank you for your transparency. That wasn’t easy for you to do. Your words will help many people. And, your insight into your own history was the best part of all.

    So many people say “My dad hit me with a belt and I am fine today.” Some of those folks are in denial about their true feelings of being hit severely. Perhaps it is the only way for them to cope with the disturbing fact that a father could do that to a child.

    Your point about needing to fear you in order to respect you is a justification that many use to apply such methods. I think people do not truly understand the verse “the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.” This type of fear means reverential awe, not to be scared to death. The love of a father, combined with sensitive e discipline can produce a respectful child.

    Look for part of your quote in today’s post. You have much to offer others. Thank you!

  9. Argo

    Standing ovation from me! We will be dealing with this subject today. You are correct that some of the neo-calvinists are into corporal punishment. Well, today we all get to see what that can look like and the world is outraged.

  10. Casey
    Thank you for the commentary of the rod. Extreme literalists believe one should view the Scriptures through the eyes of a simple plowboy. Maybe that’s why we see so much abusive behavior within the church-both for children and spouses. More on this today.

  11. Eagle
    For about 3 years, about half of my case load as a Visiting Nurse was child abuse and neglect followup. This is not a Christian problem (although the way the church deals with it is awful which we will deal with today). This is a problem of mankind. It usually involves people who have unexpressed rage due to being abused themselves. If I remember correctly, almost every case involving child abuse involved parents who were in some way neglected and abused themselves as children.

    Also, until the last couple of decades, most people would not talk about this problem. Growing up, I heard rumors of abuse in certain families but no one called the police and everybody pretended it didn’t go on. With the advent of extensive media coverage and the willingness of victims to come forward, along with stricter lawas, that is changing.

    As for your comments about MacArthur, I had a comment with a man from my former church who said the Reformation was against God’s will. he said it should have been handled by the laws of the church. This is how pastors survive with people like this for members-hear no evil, speak no evil. If they had been in charge when David was messing with Bathsheba, it would have been covered up instead of being made a warning to all people for all time.

  12. Bene

    There is a tendency for humans to blame the victim for the following reason. Most people look at themselves as “good judges of character.” When a person, that they have deemed good, does something bad, it negate their self-perception. For those in a church with a pastor who does something bad, they must cope with the fact that they chose to follow a charlatan. Some peoples’ egos can’t cope with that.

    Thoughtful Christians understand that all men are capable of great evil. So, when I found a former church, doing something I though was bad, I washed my hands of it, knowing that such is the problem of sin and not a problem with my “judgement.”

  13. Thanks, Dee. 🙂
    And when I say that some families spank for absolutely everything, that’s not hyperbole. I’ve been in SGM for many years, until this year, and believe me, I have known families that really do spank for virtually every form of “disobedience”. I use that term in quotes, because I find that many in such calvanista groups that word is also, like corporeal punishment, applied in blanket form. There is very little discernment, and very little discernment encouraged from the leaders, between children being children, and children being disobedient. There is of course a distinction, and yet, it seems easier for families to simply put aside critical thinking and break out “the rod”. I have a problem with that. I do not think it does kids a lot of good.

  14. I don’t know. Raising kids takes time and effort and thinking and creativity. It’s not easy. This may seem harsh, but I think it’s kind of lazy parenting to simply whack across the backside for everything deemed “disobedient”.

  16. I am a mom of 8 children, 7 living. When the first few were young, I spanked them occasionally, having been taught it was Biblical. I dropped it fairly quickly, though, as I observed that it wasn’t “working.”

  17. Hi Bridget,
    We had the same experience. We NEVER spanked for everything (I never believed in that), but we’d spank occasionally. We also realized that this wasn’t really working for our children. Now, I hated spanking, so my attempts were half-hearted, and I guess never hurt much. I felt bad; I felt I was a bad parent because I wasn’t following the command of my church authorities on the matter to spank them so it hurts and they remember, but I struggled with this. It just wasn’t ME. Some people just aren’t born to hit, it’s that simple. You cannot force this action on people who don’t have it in them, is my belief. For some people, violence of ANY kind is simply reviling. Our only options were to spank harder or try something else. I refused to be a “sheeple” and said there have GOT to be other ways. The Bible rarely deals in absolutes when it’s a “tertiary” matter (such as discipline, what to eat, what to wear, what to watch…their ar guidelines, sure, but we aren’t talking the diety of Christ or the resurrection here). So I refused to pursue the method of “just keep spanking until they get it”. We’ve tried other forms of discipline (you’d be surprised at how well some non-coporeal forms of discipline work…for example, if one of my kids misbehaves, and, say we are going to the pool…they’ll have to sit in time out for 5 to 15 minutes and watch the other kids play in the pool until the timeout is done…this, and varieties of this work EXTREMELY well on one of my children in particular, and NO hitting!:-)) And our kids are turning out great. Again, the Bible commands us to discipline, but not to whack kids for everything.

    Sorry for all the posts…you hit an issue I’m revved up about with this post! 🙂

  18. I have written extensively on what really works. That is, making the child sit down and tell you what other choices could have been made when the misbehavior occurred, why the child did not consider consequences when making a choice (or what consequences the child considered), and then age-appropriate time out and/or loss of privileges (especially those related to the misbehavior if at all possible). It is important that loss of privileges not also result in loss of the privileges of others if at all possible, except perhaps the parent.

    This will work with children as young as 3-4 years of age, and results in better self-discipline for them as they grow up than does corporal punishment.

  19. Sorry. But I do not believe there’s a one size fits all to child rearing. There are some great principles that can be applied broadly but no single item works for everyone.

  20. I am a little different that most of you on my view of spanking. I think there are cases where it is useful, if administered properly.

    However, it easily becomes abusive. And in my later years I do wonder if even in the cases where it can be useful, it may still be unnecessary. That is, if the risks don’t outweigh the potential benefits.

    Over the years my path has been a good bit like Warwicks – but not quite to the end of feeling spanking is never justified or useful, and not to the end I never used it.

    But I have seen that the children I used it the most on have in fact had the most problems. The children I used it the least on seem to indeed have the better self-image, and they are for the most part also quite well behaved. That is, I have not seen that avoiding spanking kept them from learning to respect me or caused them to lack respect for authority. I have noticed that I do not have the adversarial relationship with the younger ones I have had with the older ones. The correlation of these issues with spanking is strong.

    This I say as one who still is not ready to dismiss spanking altogether.

    But I will also say I grow increasingly uncomfortable with those that whack their kids over small infractions, things that are most likely just immaturity as opposed to any actual attempt at ‘rebellion’. As I’ve gotten older I see now that most of the things kids get spanked for the spanking is absolutely unnecessary. Mostly what is needed is for the parent to grow up and learn some patience.

    This is the danger with a lot of where spanking is taught as the discipline of choice. Most of those folks are themselves very, very immature. And this is where the danger lies.

    In fact, I would say that the only people mature enough and wise enough to use spanking correctly are those that will generally chose not to use it at all. Odd paradox – eh?

    Zeta

  21. Of course, I should add that this video is way outside the realm of what anyone I know would advocate as ‘reasonable’ behavior. Whether they support the idea of corporal punishment or not.

    Zeta

  22. Orion’s belt,
    I liked your post. You have a sense of temperance and reason about you that I aspire to have myself someday.

    I agree with everything you said. My posts can imply that I am in complete disagreement with spanking; I’m not, and I agree that there may be some instances where it may be justified. However, my concern is what I see as the massive overapplication of spanking. I can tell you that in SGM, spanking as discipline is by far the most talked-about approach. I cannot even remember a time when another method was even mentioned; perhaps it was, but if so it was mere lip service. They have a strictly literal approach to the “rod of discipline”, and children can be spanked for virtually any infraction. I remember sitting in a “parenting” meeting one time, and there was this huge segment on spanking, and the questions and answers went on and on about what to use, how many swats, how hard, how many times a day, the age limit for spanking, what level of wounding (redness/welting/brusing) was acceptable…not saying they encouraged phyical marks or anything like that, but that that could very well be a byproduct of a spanking. I just remember feeling really weird and uncomfortable about the whole thing. It just…well, was kind of creeping me out. I can’t believe the kind of stuff I listened to and thought I should agree with back in the day. God be praised for his revelation and mercy.

    Now, I will say that SGM never encouraged spanking while angry, and never encouraged restraining a child physically while spanking. I would say that they did emphasis prayer and love in the discipline; in no way do I feel that they condoned abuse of any kind, and spanking was always on the bottom, never anywhere else on the body. But, again, it was the literal interpretation, and the “spank for everything” doctrine that I could not ever get behind.

  23. Pingback: Testimony: Why Pearl’s Methods Are Dangerous | Why Not Train A Child?

  24. I have a sister who recently found out that her 9 year-old child has Asperger’s (mild autism). Now, since this child was born we (her and her large extended family) have all known that something was not in the normal range for this child, but couldn’t quite put our finger on it. This child was taken to the doctor, had speech therapy from age 2-1/2 through 5 years, and still went undiagnosed until now. The father, even now with a diagnosis, believes there is nothing (medically) wrong with this child and has pretty much rejected this child in that he is not willing to see the truth and deal with it.

    My sister, thankfully, did not spank this child although she had difficulty knowing how to care for them. Can you imagine if this child had been spanked for every little infraction? Especially, since the child REALLY did not have the ability to respond in a way that most of US would consider “normal.” It breaks my heart to think of children being expected to ACT a certain way, when it is possible that they CAN’T act that way because they are sick.

    The beautiful thing is that now my sister, who has only been saved for about 1-1/2 years, knows how to REALLY help her child. She has had some wonderful conversations with this child and can now implement some plans to “discipline” (as in lovingly instruct and train) the child in a way that will be of real value to this particular child for the rest of their life.

    Please don’t get me wrong, I don’t think that most kids are sick when they misbehave, but some are – and we may not know it. Wisdom would seek out counsel when something seems amiss, or if we keep getting the same unwanted results with our effort. Wisdom would not stubornly continue with the same training when you keep getting the same unwanted, puzzling, or strange results.

  25. Here’s my question about the videotape of the judge beating his daughter: Who did the videotaping, and why in the WORLD would anyone videotape something like that, especially when it can be uploaded to the Internet in seconds?

  26. NO child should be subjected to harsh physical punishment. It is not loving and does not result in internalization of good behavior, but the idea that strength gives one a right to be violent. Some children so treated are “broken” and have self-esteem problems for the rest of their lives as in “I must be a bad person because my parent who loves me keeps hitting me.”

    Note that we do not use corporal punishment on the worst criminals, except for the death penalty, but put them into a form of “time out”.

  27. Thanks Dee.

    Ms. Adams and her mother were on NBC Today.
    Her mother mentioned addiction, which puts into perspective why Hillary wants her father to get help and why both women say that they are being harassed by William Adams.

    Tina: I’ll take a stab at your questions.
    “Who did the videotaping?
    Hillary Adams, the daughter who was beaten uploaded the video.
    The beatings were not a one time incident.

    Why would anyone videotape something like that?
    Survival. When you live in a dysfunctional family, fear is a constant companion. In our home you could feel tensions building and being who I was, I’d often push until mom or dad snapped and beat us. At least it would be over for awhile, until the next time.

    Hillary has been clear about why she waited seven years to upload the video. She was a minor, just under his roof. She was scared for her sister and mom and herself. She has been clear that people didn’t believe her. When she told him she had a video he dared her to post it. She has been clear that only a few close friends knew she had turned on the camera as a form of self protection.
    Hillary is an adult now, with distance from immediate helplessness behind her. She felt it was time to confront her past.
    Remember that child abuse is not just about welts, bruises and broken bones.

    A local tv station did what is called an mos – man on the street, after this video went viral. There are people who do not believe that is the judge they know, voted for and respect, it just can’t be him in their minds.

    Most evidence of child abuse come from visits to the emergency room. As a 16 year old Hillary had courage and foresight to turn on the camera. It had been running for about 1/2 hour before her father came into her room.

  30. Thanks for this, Deb and Dee. (That was a good talk on the phone!)

    Actually, my site isn’t specifically dedicated to dealing with the Pearls–that one is WhyNotTrainAChild.com which is run by Hermana Linda.

    My husband and I wrote up a comprehensive review of Mike Pearl’s teaching that’s addressed to conservative evangelical parents. We made it available as a free PDF download. (http://scitascienda.com/scienda-store/#free)

    Just yesterday, we had a blog commenter who defended Mike Pearl, apparently with a full and clear understanding of NGJ’s unorthodox theology. He was disturbed that we had written an entire book to debunk a teaching that he felt we hadn’t taken proper time to understand (it took us about a year and involved an 8-person theological review team).

    I felt his complaint reflected a common problem…too little is taught by spiritual leaders about how to sift through religious doctrine and culture for oneself. This is curable, whether one calls the toolkit “critical thinking” or “biblical discernment.” And it neutralizes any intimidation caused by such complaints quite effectively.

    Here in Canada, it is legal to spank between the ages of 2 and 12 years; illegal to spank with an implement; and illegal to spank hard enough to leave a mark on the child. The lines are very clear. My husband and I advocate that parents follow the Bible’s guidance on respecting the laws of their land, wherever they may live. (That instruction was given to the believers in first-century Rome, no less…) Culturally-derived advice from American ministries may place Canadian families in unnecessary conflict with their own government.

    In Ontario, Dr. William Webb from Tyndale Seminary has spoken up on his blog about the Pearls. He’s adjunct professor of New Testament, and the author of “Corporal Punishment in the Bible: A Redemptive-Movement Hermeneutic for Troubling Texts.” It’s encouraging to see theological engagement starting to happen. I hope more will follow. I’m sure the perspectives will continue to vary, but that’s an important part of open dialogue. What bothers me most is to see leadership proceed by silence.

    Blessings,

    Cat from ScitaScienda.com

  31. I too tend to agree with Zeta. As steeped in liberalism as I am, I still refuse to throw out corporeal punishment altogether. I still believe it can be retained, but it MUST be tempered with reason & common sense.

  32. I can highly recommend the fine work that Cat & her husband have done over at Scita Scienda. It is one of the most profound commentaries on the Pearls that I know of, because they have taken the time, as well as the effort to look at the faulty theology that Michael Pearl uses to make parents believe that they *must* hit their children.

    Many thanks for a fine job of discussing this subject.
    And a special thank you to Argo, for referring the question that I have had for some time, & have yet to get an answer to: Where, exactly, in the Bible is it that Michael Pearl finds the verse telling us all to use a glue stick or a piece of plastic plumbing line to hit little kids with?
    Decades of reading the Bible, & I have yet to find that……

  33. Arce,
    I tend to think that there’s still a place in a few specific cases for corporeal punishment. But…I dunno. I’m starting to think that it wouldn’t take much for me to completely agree with your last post.

    The thing I notice, and I’m sure all of you have seen too, is that I see families who never spank and have wonderful kids; and other families that spank consistently with, er…not so wonderful kids. If spanking is such a paragon, why the discrepancy?

  34. Zooey

    Welcome. The answer to your question about where to find instruction for using a glue stick and plumbing line in the Bible is simple. It’s on the same page in which you will find how people get drunk on non-alcoholic wine! 🙂

  35. Cathi,

    So good to hear from you! Thanks for mentioning the law in Canada regarding spanking.

    I, too, am glad that this topic has captured the attention of so many. My mom called a few minutes ago to let me know that Diane Sawyer of ABC World News reported on the controversy swirling around Judge William Adams.

    When, if ever, will spiritual leaders chime in on this important matter?

    Blessings to you!

  36. Dee said:
    “It’s on the same page in which you will find how people get drunk on non-alcoholic wine! :)”

    Good one!!!

  39. Guest 32

    Here is the issue. You are right, It isn’t just found in Calvinist groups. It is found in many churches in which hyper-authoritarianism is preached and enacted. So, Steve Gaines and the SBC is a perfect example of this, along with SGM, IFB, and certain Pentecostal groups as well. However, the Neo-Calvinist movement has developed of late and so sometimes it is fresh on our minds.Within this movement, there are two groups. The authoritarian, patriarchal, ain’t we a role model group and the other are folks that take this teaching and use it to serve others, putting themselves in a posture of servanthood. Both Piper and Patterson, one Calvinist and one SBc semiArminian, are guilty of poor advice in this area. Maybe both of them could do with some input from a couple of women?

    Authoritarian pastors build up an impenetrable wall that protects them from criticism and confrontation. Can you imagine trying to tell Steve Gaines to tone it down on the punishment stuff? How quickly would you receive the old boot kick?

  40. Bene
    How frustrating. Many states have laws to allow prosecution for sins committed against children long after the become adults. Not so in Texas so the judge will get away with this on legal grounds. However, the bar can take a look at him and sanction him, if I am reading the reports accurately. Let’s hope they do. An example needs to be made of this situation to persuade others that they will be punished, one way of another, if such behavior is found out.

  41. Bene
    “How frustrating.”

    Paul Williams benefited in the same manner for his sodomizing his only son in Tennessee, 17 years before he was outed (and there weren’t web cams back then either).

  43. Guest 72

    The Paul William’s debacle will be a blot on Steve Gaines and BBC for years to come. Can anyone imagine hiding a pastor on staff who molested his one son! If this stuff isn’t straight from the pit of hell, I don’t know what is.

  44. Deb
    Or maybe some enterprising person can find something else to convict this man on. Anyone with a temper that bad has probably done other things to people.

  45. One of my favorite songs is the 11th commandment by Collin Raye. “Honor thy children.” The one thing I learned in interpreting Scriptures is often Paul and even the Prophets wrote to groups as a whole and not in respect to one person. So when he wrote to statements to husbands, wives, and children, it was that they as a whole unit would understand. The same went to churches. Peter made this statement of Paul “some things he says are weighty in which the ignorant distort to their distruction.” Honoring thy children is biblical. In regards to interpreting Scriptures, that is also why tithing properity doctrines can’t appply to an individual and was explicitly made to Israel as a whole and the priests that more than likely were not bringing their tithes to the Jerusalem. An yet this Scripture is also distorted by this so-called conservative movement.

  47. This got mentioned on morning drive-time radio last week (KFI-AM in Los Angeles). The morning drive-time host (a very snarky lawyer) commented (as a lawyer) that Judge Adams would probably escape criminal prosecution because the statute of limitations has run out, but that he could very well be removed from the bench for “conduct unbecoming his position” because a judge is held to standards of behavior.

  48. P.S. After hearing about quarter-inch plumbing lines on either this blog or one of the other anti-Pearl blogs, I was in Loews on some other errand and found the same type of supply line. Remembering the blog, I experimentally whipped my arm with it to see what it was like.

    Bad Move. PAINFUL.

  49. headless
    Did you read how I went to Home Depot and asked for help to find plumbing line that could be used to discipline a child? The guy thought I was nuts even when I explained I was doing research. he kept watching me even after I told him I had found what I needed. I think he was thinking about calling the local constabulary. And yes, it stings like stink.

  50. Headless
    Sometimes, professional organizations have higher standards than the law. In North Carolina, a doctor is not legally required to report child abuse. But, he is required to report child abuse by his professional organization. If he does not do so, he will lose his medical license.

  52. Numo
    We should hire you as our crack reporter. We saw this article and Arce forwarded it to us. We are grateful for your help. Deb is planning an article on this on Wednesday. Some interesting info in that story that has not bee discussed before on this blog.

  53. Well see – I’m not a crack reporter, because you guys and Arce beat me to it! (I get up later than most people, so i’m not gonna break an a.m. story [yawn].)

    Looking forward to Deb’s article.

  54. Pingback: Thoughts on the New York Times and Mike Pearl | Scita > Scienda

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  59. Committed
    Yep, they claim these dastardly teachings as Christian. It is up to the real Christians to teach them they are nothing more than abusers in need of forgiveness, and, in some cases , having their children removed from their home.