Robert Aaron Long Kills 8 People – Member of SBC Crabapple First Baptist Church

Then came the police statement: The alleged shooter said he wasn’t fighting a race war when he allegedly committed the killings, at three massage parlors in the Atlanta area; he was battling his own “temptation” and “possibly, a sex addiction.”

Far from eliminating racism as a motive, the alleged shooter’s confession embodies it: The murders in Georgia represent a uniquely American twinning of racism, sexism, and religion.

“It’s not a jump to say white conservative Christianity played a role here,” said Joshua Grubbs, an assistant professor of psychology at Bowling Green State University. “The facts need to come to light, but all the facts that are in the light right now suggest it’s at play.”

“How the Atlanta shooting shows the dangers of American evangelicalism’s trademark “purity culture” Business Insider, March 20, 2021

Robert Aaron Long, a white man, aged 21, has been charged with murder over the killing of eight people at massage parlors in Atlanta, Georgia. Among the victims were six Asian women, prompting discussion about the intersectionality of Long’s alleged crimes, the ways these horrific acts of terrorism reveal how Asian and other minority women in the United States are vulnerable not only to sexism but also racism and other forms of prejudice.

But there is a further significant contributing factor in Long’s alleged crimes, one that unfortunately can act as a fulcrum of racism and sexism: religion.

In one online social media profile, Long described himself as, “Pizza, guns, drums, music, family, and God. This pretty much sums up my life. It’s a pretty good life” (CNN). Other media reports soon confirmed the relevance of Christianity to Long’s profile, reporting that he is an actively involved member of Crabapple Baptist Church in Milton, Georgia (Vice), a commuter suburb of Atlanta.

“A temptation to eliminate:” Purity culture and other complementarian discourse in white male violence against women” Religious Language, March 18, 2021

Pastor Byung-chul Han of the Korean Central Presbyterian church condemned the shootings as an act of white supremacy and hate. He invoked the racial justice protests in the aftermath of George Floyd’s death, and called on the Korean American community to become more vocal about racial and social justice.

“This is clearly an act of white supremacy against vulnerable Asian women,” he said during his sermon. “America is a country built by immigrants. But there are people who don’t want to accept this,” he said.

Pastor Jun-hyup Lee of the Immanuel Korean United Methodist said in an interview that faith leaders planned the service two days ago in an effort to organize the community to become more active around racial and social justice efforts. He said he hoped the service would become the first of many efforts to rally the faith community to become more civically engaged.

The Washington Post, March 21, 2021

You have likely heard the shocking news that on March 16th a lone gunman shot and killed 8 people in 3 different massage parlors in the Atlanta area.

What you may not have heard is that killer Robert Aaron Long was a baptized member of Crabapple First Baptist Church. The church is a member of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) and is also listed on the “Church Search” page of the 9Marks website; additionally the church is listed on the Founder’s Ministry website as a “Founders Friendly” church.

I share the opinion of those I have quoted above. While I do believe in personal responsibility – Aaron Long is solely responsible for the 8 individuals he killed – I do think we, as a society, need to examine whether the teachings at the churches killers like Aaron Long and John Earnest (a member of an Orthodox Presbyterian Church who killed one woman and injured three others in a synagogue shooting) attended may have played a role in influencing their thoughts. If you have objections to my suggestion I ask if you had any objections when the FBI investigated the Imams teachings at mosque services attended by terrorists? As far as I am concerned Aaron Long and John Earnest are domestic terrorists.

“The FBI approaches the radicalization issue on two levels:

We are attempting to understand the dynamics of individual and organizational radicalization to identify early indicators as to whether individuals or groups are demonstrating the potential for violence.

We are engaged in extensive outreach to Muslim communities to dispel misconceptions that may foster extremism.”  Source document

9Marks is a parachurch organization that, in my opinion, has an elitist view of their brand of Christianity. The organization, headed by Mark Dever of Capitol Hill Baptist Church, holds to believers baptism, which is to be expected by a Baptist pastor, but Dever is adamant that his view is the correct view of baptism to the point that he has written an article stating that his friends who believe in paedo-baptism are sinning!

Further, Dever believes that ideally, you should not baptize children or young adults, but should wait until the individual has moved out from his parents and is living on his own, only then you can truly judge whether the professed believer in Christ is truly a Christian.

Additionally, 9Marks stresses the importance of formal, covenant membership. In their teaching, they advocate that prior to the church members voting on whether a new member is accepted into their church the prospective member needs to be interviewed by the elders to determine, again, that the individual is truly a Christian.

“Topics covered in our membership interviews include (1) greeting and prayer; (2) basic contact, family, and church history information; (3) personal testimony; (4) gospel definition; (5) personal questions on the soul and commitment to our church; and (6) an overview of expectations and next steps.1 Let’s think about how to interview strategically by discipling and discerning.

Christians disciple others by helping them move toward maturity in Jesus. Even something as mundane as a membership interview can disciple Christians toward Jesus in gospel confidence, gospel gratitude, and gospel community.

At the same time, you must discern whether or not you would recommend the candidate for membership. In order to do this, you need to know if a person’s profession of faith in Jesus is credible. Credibility does not look for absolute certainty but rather observable evidence of continuing repentance from sin and functional faith in Christ.

Now, if you barely know someone, how can you possibly discern the credibility of a profession? Simply put, look for a basic understanding of the gospel and a present willingness to obey all that Christ commands (Matt 28:20). You can discern it by their gospel explanation, their testimony, and their willingness to join a church that practices meaningful membership.”

“How to Conduct a Membership Interview” by P. J. Tibayan, March 7, 2019

I believe Aaron Long was examined by elders at Crabapple First Baptist Church prior to his second baptism at the age of 18 (he was initially baptized at the age of 8) and examined again prior to becoming a member of the church. I am certain Mark Dever, although hopeful that no false believers will make it through the rigorous 9Marks interview process, will be the first to admit that some will. In the case of Aaron Long, the 9Marks practices failed miserably. Sunday, church members admitted as much, excommunicating Aaron Long.

Clearly, Aaron Long was a troubled soul. The article below states that he, at least once, contemplated suicide. The article also states that “In both 2019 and 2020, Long had spent time at HopeQuest, an evangelical treatment facility in nearby Acworth specializing in sex addiction and pornography addiction, as well as “gay conversion therapy.” That facility is less than a mile from Young’s Asian Spa — the site of Long’s first attack on Tuesday evening.”

Surely church pastors had some idea of the struggles Aaron Long was going through, but in an earlier statement they said “he alone is responsible for his evil actions and desires,” which are “the result of a sinful heart and depraved mind for which Aaron is completely responsible.”

Of course, Crabapple First Baptist pastors will claim they are not their brother’s keeper –  Aaron is completely responsible – there are, after all, potential lawsuits to worry about; but my guess is that should a civil suit be filed, a jury will find they are partly culpable in this tragic story.

In light of this tragedy, I believe churches must do some serious self-examination. Perhaps Crabapple First Baptist Church’s cold, correct doctrine could use an infusion of the love of Christ. But, having been a member of a church that subscribed to 9Marks doctrines, I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for change. Instead, what we are already seeing are attacks against the messenger. (Caution, you may find this Tweet offensive: https://twitter.com/JJ_Denhollander/status/1372595727025774594?s=20 )

Comments

Robert Aaron Long Kills 8 People – Member of SBC Crabapple First Baptist Church — 250 Comments

  1. Infant and child baptism of Christian parents arose in the early church, as the offspring wouldn’t need to be converted, only their faith confirmed. Not perfect either, obviously – and Calvin’s ‘P’ is one way of dealing with it – ‘only God knows his own.’

    Well written piece.

  2. I wonder if the young man received any “nouthetic” counseling at Crabapple?

    (on a sidenote, why would you name a church after a sour apple?)

  3. Crabapple First Baptist Church has deleted all content from their website, except the statement on Long and their “What We Believe” page (the usual Calvinist slant to things).

  4. Personally, I am interested in how the shooter’s parents and pastor(s)/elders were attempting to address this. I assume they were supportive of the proposed course of action/treatment and the half-way house/addiction center. If the shooter’s parents were members, I doubt they kicked out their son without discussing with the pastor(s)/elders how to discipline/correct. It is not outside the realm of possibility that they all believed that the tradeoff of a homeless son that has to first hit rock bottom to realize the error of his ways is better than a son living with you and continuing to sin. What do they think now?

    I think the church failed the shooter and its community. Clearly the shooter had real problems and had confessed his actions to his parents and pastor(s)/elders. According to the shooter’s roommate as quoted in WaPo, the shooter said: ‘I’m falling out of the grace of God and my pastor.’ The shooter’s parents and church knew what was going on and instead of referring the shooter to professional med/psych help, they kept it within the (para-)church. Now they are saying that they reject this and expelling the shooter from membership, but I have to assume from news coverage that the shooter was openly distraught with his family and his pastor over their repeated actions and was not provided with the real help he needed. Instead, the shooter was pointed towards Focus on the Family-type solutions that are far from the professional medical help that he needed. When someone grows up in your church and is an adult member, comes to you for help, and then does this, then you have to ask how what you taught impacted them.

  5. I think its unfair to throw the church under the bus in this case. Theres not a soul in that congregation that is not grieved by these murders. No sermon preached there would lead anyone to believe that murder is justified! What were they supposed to do? In todays society it is very difficult to have someone involuntarily committed. I am a supporter of the second ammendment but perhaps an unstable angry young man having access to guns is a better narrative here…..

  6. This whole situation saddens and grieves me. Between this and the scandals involving Jerry Falwell, Jr., Carl Lentz and Ravi Zacharias, the so-called “Evangelical Industrial Complex” is undergoing a major shaking. I’m thankful my faith is in Jesus Christ and not in the evangelical church. Still, this is a lot to think about. May Jesus Christ cleanse and purify His church.

    I applaud Rachael Denhollander for what she said about the teaching of sexuality. Let those who embrace legalistic “purity culture” take heed and repent.

  7. I’m interested to know what HopeQuest was teaching this young man. I went to their website and looked around. One of their partner affiliates is the American Association of Christian Counselors. Looking on that website, one can buy video-based courses from Light University (along with completion certificates to hang on your wall) for many topics connected with counseling. It looks like the certificate is mailed to you along with the course, and it’s unclear whether or not there is any actual coursework, accountability, or personal instruction happening.

    I’m also curious to know more about these spas and the victims. Were they sex workers? Were they in coercive and abusive situations? Why were these workers considered a “temptation”?

  8. singleman: evangelical church

    We’ve got too many evan-jelly fish who won’t stand up to abuse (in various forms) in their churches. They are just too willing to go with the flow, float with the new movement, to obey and submit to their leaders without fighting the current, to be swept away with error. In the meantime, every perversion under the sun walks in undetected.

  9. Danny: … church knew what was going on and instead of referring the shooter to professional med/psych help …

    “Biblical” counseling?

  10. I received a demand, not a request, to take down the name I had tweeted of one of the pastors and apologize, because this individual believed that *mob mentality* would lead to the killing of pastors at this church. He also demanded I have Todd remove his tweet. The church had, by this time, responded by removing content from their website.

    This church seemed far more concerned about themselves, fearing their own demise, as opposed to Christian consideration of the very real loss of life of the women. I was shocked by the demands of this individual who claimed to “represent the wife” of one of the pastors. I wrote one, and only one , response, asking him where the pastor husband was. I pictured him hiding in the basement of the church and leaving his wife and children to handle the mess.

    Once again, I have to say it. We are to be the light on the hill. However, when the light shines upon us, what do those people who are looking see? I see cowardice and self-preservation as opposed to caring for those who were left to deal with the devastation.

    Finally, I don’t control Todd and he doesn’t control me. If someone doesn’t like what Todd tweets, tell him! Then deal with me for my retweet. The answer is, “No, I am not removing my retweet.”

    Special kudos to Dee aka “mirelle” who downloaded all of the sermons of this church before they all go missing.

  11. Max,

    We believe that *biblical counseling* may have ben involved. Given the ties of this church to 9Marx and the Founders, such a belief is realistic.

  12. Paul K,

    Thank you for your comment. Given what we learned from the Ravi Zacharias situation, I believe it is possible that these women were in a coercive situation that probably involved sex. Were they sex trafficked? I think this is possible. This guy was probably visiting these massage parlors and then feeling profoud guilt for doing so. He was on his way to do the same to some massage parlors in Florida. Thankfully, he was apprehended.

    Both Todd and I are concerned about the so-called counseling going on here and are looking into that angle as well.

  13. Max,

    And, pray tell, what sins and perversions do you think are going on undetected OUTSIDE the church?

    What’s outside is certainly what you’ll always have .aking its way inside.

  14. Danny,

    I have been concerrned about this as well. For example, I read the article about his roommate in the halfway house for addiction. This person had a drug addiction. What in the world was a drug addict doing in the same place as a *sex addict?” Withdrawal from drugs is quite different than dealing with whatever issue the shooter had.

    It is interesting that the church was in the process of *disciplining him.* That discipline led to excommunication which reportedly happened after the shootings. I have a concern that this church may not have understood the need for a serious psychiatric intervention for this man. Do they believe in things like paranoia, schizophrenia and delusions? The article I have written about biblical counseling shows that those who follow the precepts do not.

    This ignorance could have led to people in the church not picking up that they had someone that was far beyond their ability to help. I have been warning about this for years.

  15. Long was one sick puppy to begin with, regardless of religious affiliation.
    I think he was ticking pocket watch whose mainspring was about to break from over-winding (so to speak).
    Whether it was massage parlors or some other tragedy, it was just a question of time.

  16. His roommate at halfway house described Aaron Long espousing “psychiatry/psychology bad, spiritual counseling good” dogma:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/atlanta-shooting-suspect-robert-aaron-long/2021/03/19/9397cdca-87fe-11eb-8a8b-5cf82c3dffe4_story.html

    “Bayless said he urged Long to seek psychiatric or psychological care, but Long insisted on sticking to spiritual counseling.

    ‘He was uninterested in therapy that was not specifically related to the church,’ Bayless said.”

  17. Dee, you wrote, “ cold, correct doctrine could use an infusion of the love of Christ.” Can you give us an example or two you uncovered from reviewing the church’s sermons or teachings? I think it would be helpful to show everyone.

  18. Paul K:

    I’m also curious to know more about these spas and the victims. Were they sex workers? Were they in coercive and abusive situations? Why were these workers considered a “temptation”?

    That’s a good question regarding one of the spas that the gunman targeted. One of the shooting victims was a female customer. Perhaps I could be mistaken, but I doubt there are many women wanting to be customers of a massage spa providing illegitimate services.

  19. As I read some of these remarks above especially by Danny I can only shake my head at some of the ignorance of what is being spoken.
    First of all , we don’t have all the facts and we we didn’t live in their home. I had to require my son to leave home at 18 because he using drugs since 15, I had 3 other children lives to protect and he didn’t want help. He was mean and at times violent, he stole money and our car and this had been going off and on for a couple of years. The state offered limited assistance ( they wanted to try to keep him at home but it was seriously impacting the other children’s lives) . Was it hard to ask your just turned 18 year old son to leave? Yes! You have no idea what his parent may have went through or did. By the way, counseling costs money , providing they want to go and there is NOT much out there for the uninsured (being a nurse Dee knows this) , long wait times, an over worked staff attest to that and your lucky if you actually see a doctor and not a mid level provider.
    They may have done everything they could and had reached their limit. Don’t dare judge them if you haven’t walked with a mentally or drug addicted person, don’t.
    My son did hit rock bottom abd recovered from his drug addiction and is a productive member of society, actually a joy to hang with.
    As far as counseling, doesn’t work if their not committed. By the way, the mentally ill have many rights under the law, unless you state that your going to harm yourself or kill a bunch of people you are not going to get committed and in cases when it has happened , the stay is usually limited for a short time unless someone goes to court to request more time.
    Psych medicine is not an exact science, there is a place for meds but again they costs money ( who pays) and it may take weeks for the medication to work. There are plenty of failures of secular psych counseling too and not just Christian ( just hang out in our parks and subways) and you will see the scope of the problem.

    I know nothing of his spiritual life nor of hischurch. They could be a decent church or not. I am sure that the people who know him are shocked and maybe worse. We don’t know how much help was offered, what his leaders did and everything else.
    When I was at a Christian college going to nursing school, I came in and caught my roommate cutting his wrists, I called for help and we got him to the hospital. I struggled with a measure of guilt for not seeing something in him that indicated his mental illness but after after talking to his father and friends, none of us really saw any indicators that he was struggling. People from all faiths do horrible things and plenty of atheists do too, so I am not going to lay blame on that church as quickly as some of the above appear to want to do. It is interesting that we are so quick to blame others for what they did or didn’t do, anyone here have to gall to blame God?
    I do anesthesia for a living and we have a saying “ you can do everything by the book and still have a bad outcome”, sounds like it could apply to this situation too.
    By the way, I suffer from bipolar , am on meds, deal with our healthcare system and so I have a little understanding on some of the issues involving mental health issues. I usually just read, refrain from posting it after reading a couple of the comments above, I just got fed up and enough of this.

  20. The church statement about “the result of a sinful heart and depraved mind for which Aaron is completely responsible.” just screams ‘ultra-calvinist theology’ to me. Seems like everywhere I run into this stuff you hear again and again about how all of us humans are “totally depraved”. Obviously Christians have been arguing about this stuff for a millenia or so, without getting closer to any agreements (as an atheist, I’m looking in from the outside). But it seems to me that if you root people in the notion that “you’re totally depraved and you literally *can’t* make choices to be better/do better” – you’re going to tend to have worse behavior, not better. It just seems to end up in a really negative fatalistic place – like an old calvinist acquaintance of mine who was like, “Well, my cousin got raped – and that was god’s will for her.” And of course, when he acted like a jerk to people, of course he couldn’t do any different – because the fact that it happened meant that it was god’s will for it to happen. It’s almost like an ideology that was designed from the ground up to produce jerks.

    And of course, add in all the sex guilt and it can end up in a horrible place (I’m not excusing this guy’s actions whatsoever, fwiw).

  21. Wondering Eagle is covering this over at his blog, concentrating on possible influence of Christianese Purity Culture.

  22. John: Dee, you wrote, “cold, correct doctrine could use an infusion of the love of Christ.”

    The whole of New Calvinism could use an infusion of love! (Crabapple’s affiliation with SBC Founders Ministry and 9Marks implies New Calvinism) The new reformers would definitely not be accused of having love for one another. Instead, the usual descriptions which pop up here and elsewhere are: arrogant, authoritarian, aggressive, militant, controlling, intimidating, dominating. But yet they claim that they alone hold truth (correct doctrine) … which, of course, is far from the Truth.

  23. Paul K: I’m also curious to know more about these spas and the victims. Were they sex workers? Were they in coercive and abusive situations? Why were these workers considered a “temptation”?

    I vaguely remember something about an Iranian serial killer of 20-odd years ago who got away with it for so long because he only targeted Jezebels and Harlots; he was able to stay under the radar of the Islamic Republic because his justification was RIghteous; he was Cleansing the land of (Sexual) SIN.

    I wonder if there is a parallel here.

  24. Jerome: “Bayless said he urged Long to seek psychiatric or psychological care, but Long insisted on sticking to spiritual counseling.

    ‘He was uninterested in therapy that was not specifically related to the church,’ Bayless said.”

    Uh oh, implies “nouthetic” counseling at Crabapple. No wonder they took their website down … they don’t want you to know who they are. There’s more to this story.

  25. Max: But yet they claim that they alone hold truth (correct doctrine)…

    Their Ideology is Pure, Comrades.

  26. John: Can you give us an example or two you uncovered from reviewing the church’s sermons or teachings? I think it would be helpful to show everyone.

    John, I’m not home right now or I could give you an example from a sermon, but look at this Tweet of mine.
    https://twitter.com/thouarttheman/status/1373885232982585345?s=21

    Cold facts, no love. I would think they would have expressed some concern for Long, maybe said they will continue to minister to him as soon as they are allowed to visit him in hopes of restoring him to the faith. – Like the parable of the shepherd who left the 99 to search for the lost one. But no. It appears they are merely attempting to salvage the church’s “good name.”

    That’s my take on it.

  27. Jerome: His roommate at halfway house described Aaron Long espousing “psychiatry/psychology bad, spiritual counseling good” dogma:

    Outside the Christianese Bubble, “Spiritual” means UNREAL.

  28. In regard to baptism, I spent 70+ years in Southern Baptist life with a great multitude of baptized folks who had no evidence in their life of really knowing Christ. Baptism doesn’t “save” you.

  29. dee,

    It would be good to hear a few “sermons” coming out of that church to see what the young man was exposed to, but they have been nuked from the website (if they were ever there). Looks like someone at the church scrambled to delete web pages.

  30. Charles Scott Shaver: What’s outside is certainly what you’ll always have making its way inside.

    Too bad that we don’t have Ananias and Sapphira moments in the modern church … dropping them at the door before they can get in. Someday, we might just see God reach the tipping point with the American church.

  31. Max: It would be good to hear a few “sermons” coming out of that church to see what the young man was exposed to, but they have been nuked from the website

    A friend of this blog has downloaded the last year of sermons.

  32. dee,

    Interesting…. so typical… How many times have I listened to a evangelical/fundamentalist preacher “rail against” some flavor of “evil person/believe system”, yet, many of these same types run and hide when “the sh$t hits the fan”. While do not know what this church actually taught, since they and conveniently washed their web site, it would be interesting to know…

  33. Chuck P: They may have done everything they could

    I hear you. I am very similarly inclined. Without knowing all the facts in the case (and maybe even knowing all the facts), it is impossible to place blame for the shooter’s actions on a certain counselor, counseling method, church, pastor, etc…

    I think there are times in which there seems to be clear correlations between certain beliefs and harm done to those who hold those beliefs (I’m thinking about correlations between purity culture and sexual dysfunction and dissatisfaction) but when a person commits multiple horrendous murders there has to be clear-cut evidence linking his actions to certain beliefs and those who teach those beliefs before correlations are made.

    There are examples when this is exactly what has happened, such as the Islamist beliefs of the 9/11 terrorists directly influencing their behavior. So it’s not impossible. But the evidence must be compelling and convincing.

    I’m reminded to be careful in my own tendency to jump to conclusions regarding this situation.

  34. Max,

    Max, I so appreciate your insight. A crabapple is a sour, often shriveled, version of the real thing. So much like the Calvi-god. (I couldn’t resist).
    Does anyone else see the pathetic irony of a supposedly evangelical church deleting EVERYTHING from their website? How utterly awful that a church would wish to hide any evidence of what might well be used against them if viewed in plain sight? Anyone who is associated with this action should recognize the indictment of their belief system…but, bet-your-house…they won’t.

  35. AT Chaffee:
    Three of the women were over 60. Who looks at Asian senior citizens and automatically assumes they are prostitutes?
    singleman,

    I am afraid that you are mistaken. It is possible that these women were trafficked. See the Ravi Zacharias mess. Secondly. I find it disturbing if you think that women over 60 could not be sex workers. By that, I mean trafficked sex workers. Is there an age limitation?

    singleman,

  36. Headless Unicorn Guy: his justification was Righteous

    “Elitist” stands out in this post. Elitism is deadly (pride is #1 evil, Romans 1:30: proud & boastful).

    “a parachurch organization that, in my opinion, has an elitist view of their brand of Christianity … headed by [a leader] adamant that his view is the correct view …” from Todd’s post. Ego. Deadly.

    (If elitism & a leader’s unique correct view is the marketing of a church, well, voila, look at what this reaps, a murderer. Lightbulb.)

    Indeed, elitism justifies anything from one human to another, including murder, which may be why pride is deadly.

    Perhaps church/theology/parachurch org/leadership helped set up the young man for this deed. (Ease of purchasing a gun in a state where it seems to be increasingly difficult to cast a vote also didn’t help. Ironic.)

    @KyleJamesHoward: “Racism & white supremacy are also heresy. They are anti-Christ, anti-god, & anti-gospel. Some of y’all abound in grace & strive to abound in grace & that’s commendable. However, you don’t love racists by treating them as faith family. That gives them false assurance which Damns.”

    Anti -racism/-misogyny/-supremacy/-elitism/-degradation/-predation is NOT elite. It is keeping bullying off the playground for the safety of all others. Should predators have free reign in church & society? No. Whatever is done to the least of these (most vulnerable), is done to God Himself, and will eventually damn the bully.

    God protects the vulnerable and damns the predatory. Gospel. Elitism is predatory.

    One can feel they are making good choices, but never that they are superior, nor that others are responsible for one’s personal bad choices (as this murderer claims).

    We keep bullying off the playground without in turn bullying the bully. Set boundaries, leaving vengeance to God. WW2 stopped Hitler et al without a counter holocaust.

    Church harboring, breeding, and sanctioning bullies (elitists, including murderers) is not church. Church banning bullies and elitists and predators from social interaction while teaching that bullying and predation of anyone is wrong & punishable by law in society is – real church.

  37. Q. Recommendation of the candidate for 501c3 Christian church membership, has taken on a whole new meaning?

  38. Paul K,

    While I completely agree with, I have also, personally, experienced fundamentalist leaders that spoke “almost” violently against sexual “sinners”, and not just gays… and no one calls them on it…..or at oeast no one did when I experienced it years ago….
    In fact, this discussion is bring back memories… and the “religious leaders” were associated with General Association of Regular Baptists Churches, GABC..

  39. Headless Unicorn Guy: Wondering Eagle is covering this over at his blog, concentrating on possible influence of Christianese Purity Culture.

    It’s a well written article on fundagelicalism’s obsession with the ‘badness’ of unauthorized sex outside of marriage, and a call to rethink it.

  40. Paul K: Without knowing all the facts in the case (and maybe even knowing all the facts), it is impossible to place blame for the shooter’s actions on a certain counselor, counseling method, church, pastor, etc…

    The Washington Post article does say that the treatment center has at least several state licensed counselors on its staff.
    I don’t know much about how effective it is to treat “sex addiction” by any means – at least with drug addiction there are some medication options to help out.

  41. Jeffrey Chalmers: personally, experienced fundamentalist leaders that spoke “almost” violently against sexual “sinners”, and not just gays… and no one calls them on it…..or at least no one did when I experienced it years ago….

    Boulder.
    Does anyone preach even mildly against this sort of behavior? And as a precursor, anger management? It seems it would cogently align with at least one of the 10 Commandments.

    (Guess there are a few that lean the other direction, preaching some must silently submit for a season.)

  42. Abigail: I think its unfair to throw the church under the bus in this case.

    You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

    However, these kinds of churches have been throwing women under the bus for years and years, holding women responsible for men’s sins, blaming women for men’s addictions, etc.

    I understand what you are saying.

    But the shooter was very much influenced by his church’s “Throw the women under the bus” doctrine. And that is what the shooter did. He threw those poor Asian women under the bus, sacrificing them, scapegoating them for his sin/addition/anger.

    Me, I want these kinds of churches to be held accountable for their false, Christ-less doctrine. It has been destroying the lives of women for too long and it’s time for them to face some repercussions for spouting off so much anti-woman doctrine.

  43. Paul K: Why were these workers considered a “temptation”?

    I am speculating here, but women of minority ethnicities are often considered “exotic.” And that “exotic-ness” (something they had absolutely ZERO control over) may have been a contributing factor to why they were targeted.

    I am pasty-white and far from a typical Hollywood attractiveness. But my 18 months in largely homogeneous South Korea was a real confidence booster, because suddenly I was “it.” On the flip side, I have never been ogled so much (by both men and women) for simply walking down the street or taking the subway. A sister who lived for a time in the Caribbean made the same observation.

  44. Wild Honey,

    Thx for the link with article & comments.

    Comment: Anon on March 21, 2021 at 6:53 am
    “The funny thing is, the very guys who get so heated about women ‘causing them to sin’ by not covering up enough are usually also the ones who make nasty comments about women who dress ‘frumpily’ (i.e. very covered up) and get incandescent at the sight of a woman in a burkha . . . We really can’t win.”

    Shame, blame, it’s all the same – degradation of women.

  45. dee,

    I agree it is possible they may be trafficked and there are definite concerns. This is more a reference to the fetishization of Asian women that might intersect with misogyny in regard to the shooter’s choice of targets- was intended as a comment and not a criticism.

  46. Wild Honey: I am speculating here, but women of minority ethnicities are often considered “exotic.”

    The “Exotic” factor is also a major part of Furry Art.

    Because what is NOT Exotic is considered Dullsville.

  47. Paul K: I’m also curious to know more about these spas and the victims. Were they sex workers? Were they in coercive and abusive situations? Why were these workers considered a “temptation

    What difference does it make? People lost their lives. Killing is killing.
    Lots of people make assumptions about Asian women. Usually they’ve read too much James Clavell.

  48. AT Chaffee: Three of the women were over 60. Who looks at Asian senior citizens and automatically assumes they are prostitutes?

    “When all you have is a hammer…”

    Or incredibly strong Virgin/Whore Dichotomy. Since they were working THERE they obviously couldn’t be Virgins, so…

  49. dee,

    I just got home from work and am shaking my head in disbelief at your comment directed at me. How could you possibly conclude that my comment concerning the female customer who was gunned down somehow implies that I don’t believe women 60 or older can’t be trafficked. Of course I do! Women and girls of any age can be trafficked. So can men and boys.

    I’ve been a regular participant at this blog for years. My record should speak for itself. How could you think such a thing about me? I am deeply hurt by your comment.

  50. dee: Special kudos to Dee aka “mirelle” who downloaded all of the sermons of this church before they all go missing.

    I got the last year’s worth of sermons, but I will tell you, I AM NEVER going to download them onto an Apple box again. It’s a pain to move them over to a publicly accessible drive. (However, at the time, I wasn’t certain how long the sermons would be there and the MacBook was available. So there’s that.)

  51. Muff Potter: Long was one sick puppy to begin with, regardless of religious affiliation.
    I think he was ticking pocket watch whose mainspring was about to break from over-winding (so to speak).
    Whether it was massage parlors or some other tragedy, it was just a question of time.

    I am hoping that he is getting a thorough psychiatric workup. There are some psychiatric illnesses (like schizophrenia) which tend to surface in a person’s late teens or twenties and they can be quite devastating. I am not saying this to excuse what he did, but a psychiatric illness would make this more understandable.

  52. singleman: That’s a good question regarding one of the spas that the gunman targeted. One of the shooting victims was a female customer. Perhaps I could be mistaken, but I doubt there are many women wanting to be customers of a massage spa providing illegitimate services.

    The woman customer who was shot was there with her husband for a couples’ massage. She and the husband had been married less than a year and were basically taking a night away from the kids. She leaves behind a 14 YO son and a daughter, I think aged about 8 months.

  53. dee,

    I apologize for the lack of clarity. I was attempting to respond to the comment that a female client was unlikely to be patronizing a business that was solely a
    massage spa providing illegitimate services. I was thinking that a business hiring older women also does not seem to fit the profile of a site of prostitution, but I realize that was flip and not well said.
    Trying again-The gunman seemed to assume that the women were sex workers just because they were Asian, which I doubt he would assume of white women of that age . The Chinese Exclusion Act followed also followed thinking of the time that Chinese women were prostitutes, so there is a long line of historical thinking here. Others here have commented more clearly on the exotic-erotic connection. Having the sinful women be foreign made it easier for the murderer to externalize his problem.

  54. readingalong: The Washington Post article does say that the treatment center has at least several state licensed counselors on its staff.
    I don’t know much about how effective it is to treat “sex addiction” by any means – at least with drug addiction there are some medication options to help out.

    Wow, to be perfectly honest, I am surprised.

    That said, until the person makes up their mind that they need treatment, sending them to a residential 14 or 28 day treatment, or day treatment, or daily therapy, or frequent NA meetings is not going to fix them. I had a relative who went through all of that (interspersed by two serious hospital stays from overdoses) and it wasn’t until they decided they wanted something different that they were able to change. It’s not miraculous. They’ve been clean for over 7 years now, but they’re aware of the temptations.

    Addiction is tough to deal with, seriously tough.

  55. Ava Aaronson: Perhaps church/theology/parachurch org/leadership helped set up the young man for this deed. (Ease of purchasing a gun in a state where it seems to be increasingly difficult to cast a vote also didn’t help. Ironic.)

    The irony really is stark isn’t it?

  56. Jack: Lots of people make assumptions about Asian women. Usually they’ve read too much James Clavell.

    Good point Jack, good point!
    Until they’ve seen a toothless gramma’ with two little ones in tow with no place to go after an airstrike, they should keep their galldang mouths shut.
    When you’ve seen that s|-|it up close and personal, it will haunt you (generic you) to the end of your days.

  57. Jack: What difference does it make?

    It makes no difference at all. I was curious because of the motive expressed by the shooter. As I learn more about the two spas, it looks like they were legitimate businesses with no connection to the sex industry. So, if the shooter’s own words are to be trusted (and who knows if they are), how did he connect these two spas and his victims to his “sex addiction”?

    I appreciate the pushback. I understand how my previous comment might be construed as being insensitive or even victim-blaming. This wasn’t my intention at all – just trying to make sense of a situation that is inherently senseless.

  58. I thought Rachel’s comments in the WaPo article linked to above were spot on.

    It is certainly possible that the church culture (to include its teachings) probably played a role in this. How much of a role though? We have little enough information to show correlation, much less to prove cause. Correlation does not equal causation. Randall Munroe brilliantly nails this issue here:

    https://xkcd.com/552/

    Should the guy have been referred to more professional help than what was given? Without knowing more information I would be inclined to say yes.

    Was this the *result* of faulty culture? Ummm, probably not.

    Was faulty culture a part of the problem? Likely so. How much so is the question.

    Were there particular issues with this individual that lead to his actions? Absolutely!

    Call it an interection between individual issues, faulty culture, and some other elements we know nothing of and that puts us as close as we are likely to get.

  59. Danny: . It is not outside the realm of possibility that they all believed that the tradeoff of a homeless son that has to first hit rock bottom to realize the error of his ways is better than a son living with you and continuing to sin. What do they think now?

    This is an uninformed and heartless question.
    We had to turn our adult alcohol addicted son out of our house. He got worse and died. He had decades of alcohol abuse, multiple interventions, hospitalizations, in house treatment, prison and a couple years in AA. He lost two families. Keeping him in our house just made it easier to use. What would you have done? His parents may have made poor choices about his treatment but holding this over them is really despicable.
    Maybe you should apologize to all the parents who do the best they can with problems beyond their control?

  60. Wild Honey: wondering if certain evangelical teachings contributed to this, YES.

    Comment followed by link: “Well, his church would deliver sermons calling rights for women ‘Satanic’ so wouldn’t be surprised. He was obviously radicalized from lifetime of being exposed to such rhetoric, so his whole outlook would be misogynistic and patriarchal.”

    https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2021/03/20/in-deleted-sermon-georgia-shooters-pastor-said-radical-feminism-was-satanic/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

  61. Headless Unicorn Guy: Christianese Purity Culture.

    I don’t understand the attacks against the “Christianese Purity” culture. Followers of Jesus are instructed to walk in purity and to flee from impurity and immorality in all its forms. We are called to live differently than the world around us. I am grateful for the biblical purity culture in the 60s & 70s in which my parents, youth leaders and pastors taught me that God desires for us to walk in purity. This instruction helped to keep me from carrying physical and emotional baggage into my marriage. Staying pure in engagement was tough, but worth it. We instructed our girls of God’s desire for them as clearly stated in Scripture. God hasn’t stuttered on this. I’m sure that if an individual is not a follower of Jesus, this makes no sense. Yet the best outcomes from research is that those who don’t cohabit prior to marriage have a greater chance of staying married. Obviously, we are grateful for God’s grace, but there are still consequences of decisions.

    Ephesians 5:1-7 “Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; 2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. 3 But do not let immorality or any impurity or greed even be named among you, as is proper among saints; 4 and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them…”

    Seems pretty clear.

  62. Chuck P,

    Chuck, thank you for your helpful comments. Very easy to sit outside of the situation and attempt to quarterback, judge and prognosticate when we don’t know all the facts. Many parents have wrestled with these kinds of things. Truly grateful to hear of your son’s recovery.

  63. ATChaffee: n-The gunman seemed to assume that the women were sex workers just because they were Asian, which I doubt he would assume of white women of that age .

    I disagree. And there is some possibility he knew more about those establishments. He may have frequented them

  64. Don. As a separate issue from purity culture (PC), let me point out a universal problem in Christendom. But, because it’s universal, it interacts with PC.I lay the blame at the feet of Bible teachers and pastors.

    That issue is- A chronic disregard for, and laziness in, the handling of God’s Word.

    Purity IS NOT a sexual word. It is religious in the following of ritual. Religious ritual. Ritual kept the sacred separate from the ordinary.

    For example: A Priest must wash his feet before ministering to God. But to be pure, the washing may only take place at the Bronze, or Molton Sea, in front of the Temple. It’s the ritual, not the water, that grants cleansing.The water is the same used by all Jerusalem.

    Look again at your quote of Ephesians. Notice a reference to immorality, and impurity, they’re two separate items.

    PC was a fraud, a suttle bait and switch.

  65. Don Jones,

    Trigger alert

    First of all, none of us are pure and that is why I don’t like the name.
    Secondly, the *purity* teaching got so overblown. As a woman, I was told that if I had sex before marriage, I had ruined myself and there was no coming back from that. There was no mercy or grace, just rules.

    Some men were taught that if they masturbated they were impure.T hey had damaged their marriage in their future.

    I hated that word. The very people who were saying this were impure in their own lives. They spoke against pornography when we have found in recent years that many of them were using pornography.

    If you think I am speaking against Scripture, you would be wrong. I taught my children the standards as they were growing up. But I refrained from *forever damaged.* That’s a nonChristian viewpoint. There is always forgiveness and coming back.

    Repentance along with mercy and grace was not often stressed in those *purity* programs.

  66. Erp,

    Thank you for posting this information. It shows the dead and wounded as individuals. Two were licensed massage therapists. One was probably doing work as a maintenance man. A married couple was there. Another man was probably walking past on his way to a nearby business. This information has been scattered around several news stories, and I’m grateful to see so much information in one place.

  67. Todd Wilhelm,

    dee: This guy was probably visiting these massage parlors and then feeling profoud guilt for doing so. He was on his way to do the same to some massage parlors in Florida. Thankfully, he was apprehended.

    A lot of news sources are referring to these businesses as day spas, a more neutral expression than massage parlor. My area is full of day spas, and I have been known to frequent them when my husband bought me a coupon for a massage. Most are legitimate businesses. The dodgy ones tend to look dodgy on purpose.

    Two of the dead were licensed massage therapists. I don’t know the immigration status of the dead and wounded. So far I also have not seen any news stories that show any of the victims were trafficked as sex workers. That theory seems to come from the type of business. If info has been posted about this, I missed it.

    Above all, I don’t want to see these victims and businesses through the eyes of the man who went there to end human lives.

    This man had extreme ideas about sin. He condemned himself for doing something that has never been known to cost lives. He seems to have agonized over a Physical Thing That Happens To Many Young Men.

    So no, I don’t trust his judgment about which businesses are legitimate! For all we know, he merely harbored feelings of attraction for someone in one or more businesses. We do have some facts: he was under church discipline, and his parents had just thrown him out of the house.

    According to his roommate:

    “He was racked with a very specific kind of guilt — which is to say religious,” Bayless said. “He was mil1tant about it. I mean, this was the kind of guy who would hate himself for [doing something alone, with his hand], would consider that to be a relapse.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/03/21/atlanta-gunman-expelled-church/

  68. Dee,

    I concur with your comment below. Various addictions and other mental conditions require specialized treatment regimes just like various physiological disorders and conditions require specialist treatment regimes. To lump them all together into a “one-size fits all” process is inefficient, asinine, mostly unsuccessful, and ultimately counterproductive.

    dee:
    Danny,

    I have been concerrned about this as well. For example, I read the article about his roommate in the halfway house for addiction. This person had a drug addiction. What in the world was a drug addict doing in the same place as a *sex addict?” Withdrawal from drugs is quite different than dealing with whatever issue the shooter had.

    It is interesting that the church was in the process of *disciplining him.* That discipline led to excommunication which reportedly happened after the shootings. I have a concern that this church may not have understood the need for a serious psychiatric intervention for this man. Do they believe in things like paranoia, schizophrenia and delusions? The article I have written about biblical counseling shows that those who follow the precepts do not.

    This ignorance could have led to people in the church not picking up that they had someone that was far beyond their ability to help. I have been warning about this for years.

  69. Friend: “He was racked with a very specific kind of guilt — which is to say religious,” Bayless said. “He was mil1tant about it. I mean, this was the kind of guy who would hate himself for [doing something alone, with his hand], would consider that to be a relapse.”

    PURITY CULTURE.
    Constant Navel-Gazing Sin-Sniffing, like all those Puritan personal journals.

    I am also reminded of an Arab proverb I heard once some 50 years ago:
    “With sword I wash my shame away —
    Fate, bring on me what you may!”

  70. Chuck P: As far as counseling, doesn’t work if their not committed. By the way, the mentally ill have many rights under the law, unless you state that your going to harm yourself or kill a bunch of people you are not going to get committed and in cases when it has happened , the stay is usually limited for a short time unless someone goes to court to request more time.
    Psych medicine is not an exact science, there is a place for meds but again they costs money ( who pays) and it may take weeks for the medication to work. There are plenty of failures of secular psych counseling too and not just Christian ( just hang out in our parks and subways) and you will see the scope of the problem.

    That’s a lot of the problem with this situation. The beliefs and movement of 9 Marks does not believe in psychological or psychiatric help. And they condemn anyone who gets it and will church discipline members who do. I took 4 classes in “biblical counseling” (3 more than were required for their certification at the time). None of them dealt with violence, abuse, and mental disorders. All problems could be “solved” by making the person memorize Bible verses and admitting their “sin”.

    Biblical counselors are not trained to deal with someone with this kind of mental illness. They don’t even believe in mental illness.

  71. I want to say that I believe racism plays a part in this situation and I do wish that were a bigger part of this discussion. I feel like Christians are talking about the church and lack of psychological help, but have been avoiding the issue of racism in the church.

    Crabapple FBC (a church I actually know quite well) is not just affiliated with 9 Marks, but also the Founders Ministries. I vehemently believe the founders movement is born out of racism.

    There’s a reason all the black churches are leaving the SBC. Some of the attacks on critical race theory that I have seen are not because the topic is CRT, but because the topic is racism in any context.

  72. Max,

    I read part of one from the pastor’s previous church in Oklahoma. It was about the manycevils of feminism.

  73. Friend: This man had extreme ideas about sin. He condemned himself for doing something that has never been known to cost lives. He seems to have agonized over a Physical Thing That Happens To Many Young Men.

    It makes no practical sense does it?
    The guilt and crushing despair that can be brought on by making too much of Ephesians 5:1-7.
    So far as I can tell, it’s one of those things (so-called sexual purity) that’s been manufactured from a broad and general sense of Paul’s words.
    If human sexuality (so long as it doesn’t involve violence and coercion) is that big of a buggaboo to The Almighty, he’d have done better to make it no more interesting and sought after than getting the wheat and barley crop in.

  74. Wow. Not the usual comments here. So much heat, so little light.

    To be clear: I have a mentally ill adopted son (doing well I believe at the moment but with mental illness all you get are moments) that could easily suffer a “broken brain attack” and be the shooter in any of these instances.

    We, and 3 states, have done all we can do. Law will not allow any of us to force him to stay locked up. Only when he commits a crime can that legally happen, and then only for a certain period of time. Sounds like no matter what the parents do they will get blamed.

    Next time you blame the parents of a mentally ill person, be sure to blame all those parents who have children with cancer, leukemia, diabetes, blindness, or who are deaf. Makes as much sense.

    As to purity culture? While I disagree strongly with Jim Bob Duggar and the save the first kiss for marriage crowd, that doesn’t mean I agree with the anything goes between willing partners crowd.

    It is very clear from scripture that adultery, bestiality, and fornication are forbidden, and even Jesus said marriage is between one man and one woman (covers polygamy, same sex marriage, and any other non one man one woman arrangement.)

    I don’t think expecting folks to keep it in their pants or keep their skirt down and panties up has caused any of these mass shootings. That makes about as much sense as blaming alcoholism on anti drunk driving laws.

    Healthy young men if taught wrong by a church evaluate the church’s teachings and if they feel it isn’t realistic walk away.

    They don’t go kill people for “tempting them to sin.” That is craziness, not bad theology.

  75. ishy: Christians are talking about the church and lack of psychological help, but have been avoiding the issue of racism in the church.

    Agreed. I thought it was wonderful that Korean churches held a worship service outside one of the businesses.

  76. On the Founders website there’s an article by Tom Ascol’s lieutenant Jared Longshore with title “Sexual Sin Kills” [!]

    https://founders.org/2018/08/03/sexual-sin-kills-avoid-the-strange-woman/

    In next-to-last paragraph they say this:

    [quoting ESV]

    “Verse 10 says, avoid her ‘lest strangers take their fill of your strength, and your labors go to the house of a foreigner’. Oh what a great tower can be torn down by sexual immorality. Christians work hard to build a strong faith. We work to build a strong church and family. We work diligently to store up treasure in heaven. We work to build character and credibility with our spouse, children, and fellow Christians. All of that work! May this strike healthy fear into our hearts. Do you know how long and hard you have worked for these good things? Call to mind the blood and sweat, the emotional energy, the early morning prayers, the catechizing of children, the hours spent in service to the church. Could we really spoil all that for which we have labored? We will not only lose our labors but embolden unbelievers to sin. Notice the strength goes to foreigners.”

    the last word there they emphasized with italics

    And look at very top of webpage, in center: “WIELD THE SWORD”

  77. Westerner: I read part of one from the pastor’s previous church in Oklahoma. It was about the many evils of feminism.

    Makes sense. These hyper-New Calvinists are pulpit-beaters who think everything is sin and everybody a sinner … except themselves and their ways. Any love they might have for others is drowned out by their noise.

  78. Can’t wait to hear your take on the Boulder incident. Will Alissa ‘s faith community be criticized and declared partially responsible? If so, will you rely on documents from that Faith to make your determination? And if he has no faith? Shall his parents, teachers, siblings and/or friends be blamed?

  79. ishy: I vehemently believe the founders movement is born out of racism.

    SBC founders prior to the Civil War included Calvinist slave-holding pastors and deacons. They believed sovereign God was on their side in the Civil War, until early Confederate victories turned to defeat. After the War, most Southern Baptists distanced themselves from the founder’s theology and racist sins … remaining distinctly non-Calvinist in belief and practice for 150 years until Mohler and the Mohlerites showed up.

    The current Founders Ministry is all about dragging SBC back to their Calvinist roots, without asking millions of mainline non-Calvinist members if they want to go there! They may not be enslaving folks now, but they have put women in bondage with the “beauty of complementarity” and diminished the authority of Christ by their “Eternal Subordination of the Son” heresy. However, there is no doubt a residual of racism in some SBC churches, given the history of “Southern” Baptists. Indeed, it took SBC 150 years to repent of their racial beginning by a show of contrition at their annual meeting in 1995. Old sins take a long time to die.

  80. Jerome: Pastor Jared Longshore posing as a reporter at the protest rally at the 2019 Southern Baptist convention

    Stealth and deception are modus operandi of the New Calvinists.

  81. From the OP:

    “I am certain Mark Dever, although hopeful that no false believers will make it through the rigorous 9Marks interview process, will be the first to admit that some will. In the case of Aaron Long, the 9Marks practices failed miserably.”

    It’s not clear to me that Aaron Long was a “false believer.” He might have believed entirely too well.

    9Marks does promote practices and beliefs that I consider false and bad. These might have worsened the condition of an unstable person.

  82. dee,

    Thx. Good explanations.

    (Some of the church stuff is confusing if one is not familiar with the lingo & surrounding issues & use/misuse of the Bible. So these explanations are great to keep up with the gist of the discussion. Imagine confusion is exactly what happens to new seekers in the church trying to figure it all out when these code words with doctrines & weird applications come out of left field. In some cases, one is even dealing with wolves in sheep’s clothing, or wolves that masquerade as our Shepherd. Ever grateful for the TWW forum.)

  83. Ava Aaronson: Some of the church stuff is confusing if one is not familiar with the lingo & surrounding issues & use/misuse of the Bible. So these explanations are great to keep up with the gist of the discussion. Imagine confusion is exactly what happens to new seekers in the church trying to figure it all out when these code words with doctrines & weird applications come out of left field.

    I think a lot of it comes down to elitism and power and not theology. Theology is just a tool to enforce power. The New Calvinists, and particularly 9 Marks, are openly heavily focused on “authority” of leaders. They use this authority to other anyone who doesn’t follow or doesn’t do as they are told. The issue in Calvin’s Geneva was about power and who holds it, not really about religion. The Reformation addressed a huge imbalance in power. The founding of the SBC was about power and who held it in the original Baptist convention, but also on who the powers that be wanted to keep out. And New Calvinist leaders are pretty clear on the fact that they want to be in charge and we all should just “submit to authority”.

    To answer Godith’s point above, the same thing can happen without religion, but religion is a fairly effective way to not only gain power but psychologically coerce people into letting power reside in a few people. And there’s all kinds of theology that can be used to coerce the masses.

  84. ishy: religion is a fairly effective way to not only gain power but psychologically coerce people into letting power reside in a few people

    Which is exactly why I hope to live long enough to see religion’s funeral preached. Christ has largely been lost amidst all the religious mumbo-jumbo in the American church.

  85. Jerome: also a photographer of scantily-clad women:

    Nothing wrong with scantily-clad women.
    To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven…

  86. Max: I hope to live long enough to see religion’s funeral preached.

    Well, I assume you mean “religion” as meaningless piety acted out on Sunday mornings, frequently characterized by abuse and excess. But surely Christians can (re)discover good ways to worship together.

    I keep an eye on my tiny corner of the Kingdom. It ain’t perfect, but it’s OK and worthy of survival. And it most definitely is religion, as well as faith.

  87. Jerome: 9Marksist minister … Dever’s premier intern … photographer of scantily-clad women … Confusing, isn’t it?

    Nah, not in New Calvinist ranks … the “T” in TULIP stands for total depravity.

  88. Friend: I assume you mean “religion” as meaningless piety acted out on Sunday mornings, frequently characterized by abuse and excess

    Yes, exactly … the stuff of mere teachings and traditions of men in which believers become ensnared … the things that substitute for worship … distractions which prevent folks from entering into the presence of God … the counterfeit disguised as genuine … the Sunday morning masquerade that is all about ‘us’ and not about ‘Him’ … you know, “religion” (not all of it bad, however).

  89. Max: Nah, not in New Calvinist ranks … the “T” in TULIP stands for total depravity.

    Well, except that total depravity is expected from male leaders, but everyone else would get church disciplined or excommunicated over it. It’s one of the gaping holes in their “biblical” theology.

  90. Don Jones: I am grateful for the biblical purity culture in the 60s & 70s in which my parents, youth leaders and pastors taught me that God desires for us to walk in purity. This instruction helped to keep me from carrying physical and emotional baggage into my marriage. Staying pure in engagement was tough, but worth it. We instructed our girls of God’s desire for them as clearly stated in Scripture. God hasn’t stuttered on this. I’m sure that if an individual is not a follower of Jesus, this makes no sense.

    Just some thoughts… and for context, I think sex is best reserved for marriage, and that there are very practical reasons for that, such as significantly limiting exposure to STDs and protecting women (especially prior to the advent of reliable birth control methods) from the hardships of single-parenthood (particularly in societies where women are completely dependent on men for survival).

    I had at least two friends, both guys, in college (a secular university) who were atheist but intended to save sex for marriage. Even those outside the church see practical benefits.

    Other religions, such as orthodox Islam and Judaism, espouse sexual ethics virtually indistinguishable from conservative Christianity. And reject Jesus as Messiah.

    When she was 20, my grandmother gave up an out-of-wedlock baby for adoption. Over 50 years later, he made contact. She had kept this as a secret from everyone except her husband (my grandpa). The amount of SHAME she showed when the secret came out, despite spending a lifetime in church, was heartbreaking to see. “Purity” culture taught her that nearly 50 years of a faithful marriage did not atone for a brief relationship with a man she literally no longer remembers the name of.

    Studies are showing the unintended consequences of linking “purity” to sex, specifically related to marital satisfaction and sexual satisfaction within marriages. They’re not good: https://tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2021/01/healthy-sexuality-teaching-rubric/. What do we do with this?

  91. Don Jones: Staying pure in engagement was tough, but worth it. We instructed our girls of God’s desire for them as clearly stated in Scripture. God hasn’t stuttered on this. I’m sure that if an individual is not a follower of Jesus, this makes no sense.

    I grew up in a family that had the clear standard of waiting until marriage, and we all went to a church that taught a version of purity culture. Guess what? The young widow in the family was treated as used merchandise. The creative rebel was thrown out before age 18 (illegal, but it happened). The most obedient churchgoer slipped up and will never feel entirely clean, even within a good, decades-long monogamous marriage. The quiet one cohabited before marriage, and that couple has been together since the 1970s.

    Our elders were emotionally abusive, but of course the purity instructions don’t take that into account. Somehow, kids raised by violent maniacs, narcissists, and drunks are supposed to follow the same rules with perfect serenity.

    Reminds me of the old quotation: “The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal loaves of bread.”

    As parents, we did set the expectation of waiting till marriage. We also taught our children that they could bring anything to us, any topic, day or night. They utterly trust us. Frankly I value that trust far more than their virginity.

  92. ishy: total depravity is expected from male leaders … everyone else would get church disciplined or excommunicated over it

    Don’t do what I do … do what I say.

  93. Max: Don’t do what I do … do what I say.

    ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL
    BUT SOME OR MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS.
    — George Rowell, Animal Farm (“OINK! OINK!”)

  94. Lutherans also believe in total depravity but call it the bondage of the will. They also believe in election. They do not believe in limited atonement, nor do some Calvinists. Both Lutherans and Calvinists believe in sexual purity both in and outside marriage.

  95. Max: SBC founders prior to the Civil War included Calvinist slave-holding pastors and deacons.

    Remember this mass shooting happened in and around Atlanta. Right in the heart of Gone With the Wind country.

    Someone in this thread made a snark about how getting a gun was easier than voting in GA today. ANd to me the two are somewhat related.

    In the Antebellum South, white men were expected to be armed, sometimes heavily armed. If not personal pieces, through local Militas. The unspoken reason for this was the threat of slave rebellions. That would also have been a factor in Southern (including Church) culture, cementing “Second Amendment Solutions” into the attitudes. (And Federal/outsider Occupation during Reconstruction didn’t defuse things.)

    So the star of this latest DIY Reality Show would have been primed and pushed a bit. Not that it was a major factor, but another ingredient in what turned out to be a Perfect Storm situation.

  96. Muff Potter: It makes no practical sense does it?
    The guilt and crushing despair that can be brought on by making too much of Ephesians 5:1-7.

    And remember when it comes to Sin-Sniffing, Christianese Culture is as obsessed with “Pelvic Issues” as a full-honk nymphomaniac.

    If Sex Makes People Stupid, it makes Christians Crazy.

  97. linda: Jesus said marriage is between one man and one woman (covers polygamy, same sex marriage, and any other non one man one woman arrangement.)

    This my latest foray into Christianity lasted all of two months.
    In the old testament there were multiple wives, concubines, slave girls as nauseum!
    So was God wrong in the old testament?
    Look, I’m married to one woman so I’m no Lothario. I’m faithful because I want to be.
    If someone saved themselves for marriage, good for them. But didn’t Jesus also forgive an aduterous woman?

    What we are seeing in this shooting and the boulder event is the fringe of a demographic that currently sees itself losing control.

    This has nothing to do with temptation by Asian massage therapists any more than it has to do with the produce aisle at King Soopers.

    Look at the responses. Another group comes to the already crowded table. This isn’t a bad thing but why do the important conversations happen after people die?

  98. Godith: They do not believe in limited atonement, nor do some Calvinists.

    R.C. Sproul (Calvinist icon) taught that there is really no such animal as a 4-point Calvinist. His reasoning was “there is confusion about what the doctrine of limited atonement actually teaches. However, I think that if a person really understands the other four points and is thinking at all clearly, he must believe in limited atonement because of what Martin Luther called a resistless logic.”

    It’s a logic I chose to resist along with 90+% of Christendom worldwide.

  99. Godith: Both Lutherans and Calvinists believe in sexual purity both in and outside marriage.

    I have appreciated your comments in the past, and would like to know what you are suggesting.

    You have shared a common teaching. This discussion is about possible links between exceedingly strict Christian teachings and the slaying of women whom the alleged killer referred to as temptations. You seem to think there cannot be any link, because everybody is supposed to wait until marriage.

    Is that your viewpoint? If not, please let us in on your thinking.

  100. “Robert Aaron Long was a long-time member of Crabapple Baptist Church.” (Dee)

    A long-time church member … that thought still disturbs me.

  101. Godith: Can’t wait to hear your take on the Boulder incident.

    What’s there to take?
    Long is as crazy as an outhouse rat and Evangelical Christianity is in no way responsible for his actions.

  102. Jack: didn’t Jesus also forgive an aduterous woman?

    Takes two, often one of each gender.

    But then, maybe Jesus didn’t forgive the hypocritical stone-throwing men. (Were they religious leaders, too?) Or, maybe He did, and that was the point.

    Interesting how that story is labelled, by the story teller, i.e., the one who controls the narrative.

  103. Friend,

    What I’m saying is that people here often try to portray Calvinism as the upholder of X, Y or Z and blame it when something like this happens. In reality Lutheranism, to name one example, upholds, the same X, Y, and Z.
    Also, if one thinks the doctrine of sexual purity causes sexual sin, one might as well say the doctrine of truth telling causes lying.

  104. Max,

    I don’t worship RC Sproul. I’ve never been able to listen to him speak. The problem is the rise of celebrity preachers and book publishing-the evangelical industrial complex. Let’s get over defining truth according to John Piper or Joyce Meyer and get back to the Bible. I believe one can show it teaches general atonement. Not to be confused with universalism.

  105. Godith: if one thinks the doctrine of sexual purity causes sexual sin, one might as well say the doctrine of truth telling causes lying.

    Thanks for responding. If the doctrine of truth causes a father to beat a tiny child black and blue for lying about taking a cookie, the teaching of that doctrine needs to be examined.

    If purity teachings lead to abuse, they need to be examined as well. This young man might be severely mentally ill. In that case, the church’s diagnosis of sexual addiction seems to have led to further inner torment. He needed urgent mental health care, not sermons or anguish about saving himself for marriage.

  106. Don Jones,

    French of Frenchpress.com has a good article about this. The purity culture is different from keeping yourself pure and holy. It involves things like a father/daughter dance, courtship instead of dating, purity ring, etc. (as in Bill Gothard).

  107. Friend,

    The doctrine of truth does not lead to the example of beatings for lying, nor does the teaching of sexual purity lead to abuse. Abuse can and does happen in all kinds of environments. It is illogical thinking that finds a connection between sexual purity as taught in the Judeo-Christian ethic and sexual abuse. Look at environments where there is no sexual ethic per se at all. There is still sexual abuse there.

  108. Alison,

    What percentage of believers in the Judeo-Christian ethic on sexual purity practice what you call purity culture replete with rings, Daddy dances, courtship instead of dating?
    People make it sound like it’s a huge problem in the Christian world. What denominations teach that those practices are holy and required by God? I sincerely would love to know. Yes, I’ve heard of Bill Gothard whom I consider a lunatic broadly-speaking. Anyone else?

  109. Godith,

    Close relatives of ours were steeped in church involvement (in a tradition we’ve all heard of), and in Bible teachings at home. They believed that the “spare the rod” verse meant that God ordered them to use physical discipline on their children. They read the works of big-name Christian authors about raising children the Godly way.

    When their tiny daughter broke a rule, the mother disciplined her by pulling down her underwear, turning her over her knee, and striking her bare flesh with a coat hanger. The little girl was ordered to smile to show that she appreciated the correction. If she frowned or looked angry, she got more spankings until that grateful smile showed up.

    BY THEIR OWN ACCOUNT, this couple was doing what the Bible ordered them to do, using objects and techniques recommended at church and in Christian books.

    TWW is all about abuse in Christian settings. I’m baffled that anyone here is denying a connection between church teachings and abuse. What point am I missing?

  110. Godith: Let’s get over defining truth according to John Piper or Joyce Meyer and get back to the Bible. I believe one can show it teaches general atonement.

    Indeed! When one looks at the whole of Scripture, rather than cherry-picked verses, it’s clear that God is not willing that ANY should perish and provided a way through Jesus for whosoever-will to come to Him. Our dilemma is that most churchgoers believe every word uttered by church leaders and celebrities within the Christian Industrial Complex, rather than reading Scripture themselves and praying for the Holy Spirit to teach them truth.

  111. Friend: He needed urgent mental health care, not sermons or anguish about saving himself for marriage.

    Amen! Misdirected sermons can push the unbalanced over the edge.

  112. Friend: TWW is all about abuse in Christian settings. I’m baffled that anyone here is denying a connection between church teachings and abuse.

    Abuse takes various forms, including spiritual abuse. Pulpit purveyors of the “beauty of complementarity” are ‘abusing’ women with a form of bondage … aberrant teachings about the role of Jesus in salvation ‘abuse’ those who hear it with error … even an overemphasis of truth can be ‘abusive’ if delivered in a harsh unloving way. Indeed, there can be “a connection between church teachings and abuse.”

  113. Friend: When their tiny daughter broke a rule, the mother disciplined her by pulling down her underwear, turning her over her knee, and striking her bare flesh with a coat hanger. The little girl was ordered to smile to show that she appreciated the correction. If she frowned or looked angry, she got more spankings until that grateful smile showed up.

    BY THEIR OWN ACCOUNT, this couple was doing what the Bible ordered them to do, using objects and techniques recommended at church and in Christian books.

    I was in high school with a friend who endured this abuse at home; her father was the pastor of such church. She lived always in fear that she would do the wrong thing, attempting to follow every jot and tittle of her church’s law. When she graduated and struck out on her own, she never looked back … to my knowledge, she never reconciled with her abusive father and the church/denomination he represented.

  114. Friend,

    In each and every case where such abuse is recommended by a congregation or a denomination, or in Christian books, such abuse should be reported to state authorities as well as church authorities. Books should be pulled.
    I know people are trying to do that. However, exaggerating the pervasiveness of these practices does not help. It’s far better to promote the need to report such abuse and to get support from others to do so.
    Case in point: my congregation uses Love & Respect by Emerson Eggerich in a marriage foundations class. I cannot say the book advises abusive behavior, but I think it’s clearly wrong on several points. Again, this is evangelical industrial complex. Use this or that book and your program will be complete. People don’t spend time discerning truth. Which is why I appreciate Dee’s work at TWW.

  115. Godith: People don’t spend time discerning truth.

    There is a great need in the American church for believers to pray for a new measure of discernment. However, during my long life, I have learned that much of discernment is simple observation … if it doesn’t look or sound right, steer clear of it … when in doubt, don’t.

    Charles Spurgeon said “Discernment is not simply a matter of telling the difference between right and wrong; rather, it is the difference between right and almost right.” Therein, lies the problem with much of what we hear in church … it is just almost right enough that we fall for it.

  116. Once upon a previous life I was involved in a local church’s 12-Step program (Celebrate Recovery), where I saw many men and women trying to “recover” from “sex addiction”. In my year of involvement and hundreds of hours with individuals and groups, I never met anyone who described anything like an addiction or even anything unethical or immoral when it came to their sexual practices. Everything described was private and consenual. Yet they felt crushing shame and hopelessness. Multiple people talked of suicide attempts and ideation from the guilt they felt from their “depravity.” Church leadership only ever affirmed that their thoughts, feelings, and acts were despicable and needed to be “recovered” from.

    The church needs to get out of the bu$ine$$ of sex shaming and emotional and spiritual abuse.

  117. Sòpwyth: Will national flag lowering be standard fair during this present darkness?

    It appears that we have moved from darkness to gross darkness in America. Don’t mean to be doom and gloom, but I expect more days ahead with half-mast flags.

  118. Godith: such abuse should be reported to state authorities as well as church authorities. Books should be pulled.

    … exaggerating the pervasiveness of these practices does not help.

    The church authorities are telling parents to do this. Reporting it to these same authorities could “show” that the whole family needs church discipline for rebelling. Who is going to pull these books, take down these websites and videos, silence these radio programs and TV shows? I don’t see it happening very often.

    Regarding exaggeration: I was abused in a Christian church and Christian family. So were my siblings, cousins, and grandparents, to name a few. Abuse is not some rare and exaggerated thing. It is denied, as part of the abuse.

    If you need a bigger example, take a look at the sexual abuse scandal in the Roman Catholic Church. They claim 1.2 billion adherents worldwide. We will never, ever run out of perps and survivors. Yet denials and coverups continue.

    Let’s assume that correlation is not causation. Let’s assume that abuse in Christian settings is just a coincidence. What is the church doing to prevent abuse? Who is teaching parents to stop striking their children?

  119. Clevin,

    Thank you for describing this sad situation. Most people in the program did not commit violent crimes, I’m sure. But their private suffering matters to them and to their spouses, if they even dare to marry.

    I had several chances to marry, but waited because I sensed damage in my own psyche. Before marriage, I sought therapy so that I would not visit my own problems on a husband and children. Our congregation does not teach “spare the rod and spoil the child” as a disciplinary method. It models and encourages gentle corrections.

  120. Max,

    Following along, there is significant “peer pressure” to “go along with it”, even if it is “not quite right”… I have experienced myself, as well as being “put down” for raising issues.. Religious leaders “love” to quickly “question or religious commitment” if you raise issues…. it takes a strong person, secure in their faith, to blow a whistle against a “Christian Celebrity”…

  121. Jeffrey Chalmers: there is significant “peer pressure” to “go along with it”, even if it is “not quite right”… “put down” for raising issues

    I call that “doing church through coercion.” If church leadership can convince you to conform to set of laws to which you would rather not be bound, they own you. Yet the Church (the real one) is voluntary; it is a free church. “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery” (Galatians 5:1). Responding to peer pressure, getting along to go along, doing church even though it is not quite right is not good for your spiritual health. It would be better if they see your rump and elbows going out the door to never return.

  122. Clevin,

    “The church needs to get out of the bu$ine$$ of sex shaming and emotional and spiritual abuse.”
    +++++++++++++++

    in my view, inerrancy obsession factors in.

    the inability to recognize hyperbole, among other rhetorical things.

  123. Max: Yet the Church (the real one) is voluntary; it is a free church. “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery” (Galatians 5:1).

    Really liked this comment Max!

  124. Paul K:
    I’m interested to know what HopeQuest was teaching this young man.I went to their website and looked around. One of their partner affiliates is the American Association of Christian Counselors. Looking on that website, one can buy video-based courses from Light University (along with completion certificates to hang on your wall) for many topics connected with counseling. It looks like the certificate is mailed to you along with the course, and it’s unclear whether or not there is any actual coursework, accountability, or personal instruction happening.

    I’m also curious to know more about these spas and the victims. Were they sex workers?Were they in coercive and abusive situations?Why were these workers considered a “temptation”?

    To answer your second question first, I have been actively solicited in these massage spas, enough that when I reported it to the local police they did a sting and arrested someone a week later. It made me leery of these non-chain outfits (even though chain ones like Massage Envy have had issues too). But I don’t know the specifics on these spa employees.

    To answer your first question, the certificates are no different than when I completed my recent four hour required course in Texas CPA rules and ethics; I complete the class and get a certificate. However, Light University claims their coursework may transfer to Liberty University (take that for what you will).

  125. Jerome: On the Founders website there’s an article by Tom Ascol’s lieutenant Jared Longshore with title “Sexual Sin Kills” [!]

    Ascol and Longshore illustrate the all too common fundagelical practice of hoisting a verse or two out of its context to manufacture dogma, in this case, sexual purity with no exceptions or mitigating factors.
    Here’s E.W. Bullinger’s margin note on “The Strange Woman” in Proverbs 5:3 —

    3 a strange woman. Two words are used for “strange” and “stranger”: one, Heb. zur, an apostate Israelite woman gone over to the idolatrous impurities of heathen religion ; the other ruikar, a purely foreign woman of a similar character. The danger is religious rather than moral. Hence here it is zur. See note on 2.16. drop as an honeycomb =distil honey. The invita­tions of religious idolatry suit the tastes of the nat.1ral man.

    Not a hint of the ‘sexual sin’ bogeyman anywhere.

  126. Todd Wilhelm,

    From the article: “They were already targeted for unemployment — er, “rescue” — by Street Grace, a “faith-based” anti-trafficking organization. In 2020, the group identified 165 “illicit massage businesses” in Georgia, most of them clustered around Atlanta, and deployed surveillance cameras and online reviews to estimate demand and income. Along with maps and graphs, Street Grace’s report on the “industry” includes five pages of recommended licensing, operational codes, and enforcement, as well as samples of some of the more draconian state regulations of massage businesses. The organization describes its goal as “the eradication of the commercial sexual exploitation of children,” but there’s no evidence that any of these establishments exploits minors. The youngest spa worker among Long’s victims was 44, the oldest 74.”

    [asks grimly] So this Christian ministry compiled a map of alleged sex businesses?

    I suppose the men’s group has weekly PowerPoint presentations called “How To Identify Dirty Pictures.”

    Wondering who all has used that map, and how. Nor am I convinced that this “ministry” knew what was going on inside any of those businesses.

    Trafficking absolutely needs serious attention, but we need to watch out for the insanity that brought us the attack on Comet Ping Pong.

  127. elastigirl: in my view, inerrancy obsession factors in.

    the inability to recognize hyperbole, among other rhetorical things.

    Interestingly, the writers of the Chicago Statement (inerrancy) disavowed hyperbole as a legitimate device when evaluating Scripture (article XIII).

  128. Godith: However, exaggerating the pervasiveness of these practices does not help. It’s far better to promote the need to report such abuse and to get support from others to do so.
    Case in point: my congregation uses Love & Respect by Emerson Eggerich in a marriage foundations class. I cannot say the book advises abusive behavior, but I think it’s clearly wrong on several points.

    I’ve been eavesdropping, please pardon the interjection.

    Love & Respect has some helpful messages, like the description of the crazy cycle and how to break it. But what do we do with the following problematic messages?

    “To the world, it may make no sense for a wife to put on respect toward a husband who is harsh [dictionary definition: “unpleasantly stern; cruel; severe”] and unloving. It makes no sense for a husband to put on love toward a contemptuous, disrespectful woman. But it makes sense to God” (page 274).

    According to the book, a woman cannot deny her husband sex (page 250), must respect him [including sex on demand] even if he is drinking or unfaithful (page 68), and cannot make even simple requests such as hanging up a wet towel and ensuring trash ends up in the can instead of on the floor without damaging her marriage (pages 242-243). A husband can tell his wife she’s too fat but a wife cannot bring up his porn use or alcoholism (chapter 19).

    Or the message from a wife who did his workshop that Emmerson himself uses in this very book: “Now whenever he senses anything that smacks of disrespect, even when it isn’t, it reminds him of our pasts and he gets infuriated. I haven’t seen such rage in awhile… Actually, I regret letting him know what I had learned from you because he used it against me each time… I can take on the criticism – I feel I deserve it – but his rage is withering and makes me want to get away and hide” (pages 282-283). Emmerson’s does not advise to call a domestic abuse hotline, does not advise to call the police if the rage turns violent, does not advise to report her husband’s behavior to church authorities.

    Emmerson’s single nod to spousal abuse comes 3/4 of the way through the book, a single interjection (literally in parenthesis) that he does not condone abuse. But there is nothing telling spouses how to recognize abuse and nothing listing other resources for domestic abuse victims. In fact, in the beginning of the book he says that his book is intended even for marriages in crisis. Then, throughout the course of the book, he describes husbands who are “harsh” (see the dictionary definition above) as unfortunate but a common reality in marriages.

    What would Emmerson have to explicitly say that, to your mind, would “advise abusive behavior” more than this?

  129. Godith: if one thinks the doctrine of sexual purity causes sexual sin, one might as well say the doctrine of truth telling causes lying.

    I think it is not so much the doctrine itself as the misapplication of said doctrine. The difference between orthodoxy and orthopraxy, if you will. I encourage my children to be truthful, but I also encourage them in the wise application of this doctrine (don’t tell someone they’re smelly, don’t holler out “he’s fat” at the man across the grocery store, etc). I encourage them to reserve sex for marriage, but am not going to see them as “less than” if they are date raped (saw this happen to a close relative of mine).

    There needs to be a balance with the doctrine of grace, as well, I think. Not that you’re saying otherwise, just as a reminder for myself.

  130. elastigirl: n my view, inerrancy obsession factors in.

    the inability to recognize hyperbole, among other rhetorical things.

    re: hyperbole,

    I’ve been wondering if one of Jesus’ “hard sayings” might be in view. Perhaps it will come up in a survey of the downloaded sermons.

    The famous Mt 5 “cut off your hand, pluck our your eye, if they cause you to sin” saying came to mind as a possible interpretation of AL’s statement that he did what he did in response to his own moral problem, particular since this text is surrounded, before and after, by criticism of the ways that men’s relationships with women go wrong. Of course, turning that against other people rather than against himself is deeply wicked.

    It’s been years since I last heard that text preached; IIRC it was treated as hyperbole and interpreted as meaning that “sin is so serious that you should take serious measures to avoid temptation”, without going to the actual extreme of self-mutilation that a “plain sense” reading of the text would give.

    I’ll note that there is a possible non-hyperbole interpretation of this text, if one understands Jesus’ eschatological warnings to be in reference to the impending calamitous war with Rome. On that reading, it would be better to lose important parts of one’s anatomy, but otherwise survive, than to find oneself trapped in the coming siege of Jerusalem and to die there and have one’s corpse thrown into Hinnom Valley to decompose there unburied.

  131. Friend: So this Christian ministry compiled a map of alleged sex businesses?

    Gosh! Remember when ministries used to preach the Gospel?!

  132. Wild Honey: There needs to be a balance with the doctrine of grace

    And everybody shouted AMEN! (or should have)

    It’s possible to preach grace-this and grace-that, while missing Grace altogether.

  133. Friend: Regarding exaggeration: I was abused in a Christian church and Christian family. So were my siblings, cousins, and grandparents, to name a few. Abuse is not some rare and exaggerated thing. It is denied, as part of the abuse.

    I have seen abuse over and over in the church. It’s why I left the SBC. I had two seminary classmates arrested for child molestation (one who inspired this very blog). I had one seminary classmate who Paige Patterson threatened into silence when she tried to report being raped. I saw the takeover of NAMB and all women in positions above secretary get fired so they could get replaced by a new SBTS grad with no qualifications just because they were a minion of the right gender.

    I’ve been in a church where I sat through an entire pastoral search process where the pastor outright lied about his beliefs and plans for the church, and then when he got control of the finances, fired the staff and tried to retroactively implement a very abusive church covenant. I have volunteered for a ministry because I overheard another ministry working talking about forcing underpriviledged children out because they weren’t “classy” enough to be around her or her kids. I have been stalked and assaulted by “Christian” men who had nearly all other Christians around them telling me that I had no right to say no to them. I was forced out of seminary only 4 hours from graduation by lies and blackballing because I was a woman.

    These are not even all the things that happened to me or that I witnessed. And I’m just one person. It may not be “not all Christians”, but there’s enough of them just letting all this abuse happen that it happens A LOT.

  134. Jack: you raised a fair question about the OT. However, the OT also teaches marriage between one man and one woman in Genesis, the early chapters. Then for the rest of the OT it teaches or tells about or reports on those who did not live that way. Many of them repented and were used by God. Lot committed incest with his two daughters yet the NT refers to him as “godly.” Its pretty clear we are ALL sinners, no sugar coating. And yet it consistently calls us to live differently, and doesn’t change the rules to suit our whims. Adultery is forbidden. David was called a man after God’s own heart…..but David repented of the rapacious actions with Bathsheba and the murder of her husband. That is the key.

    But we don’t live in the OT times. We live in the New Covenant. And there again, the scripture is clear that marriage between one man and one woman is the place for sex. Do humans desire “other?” Yes. Do humans fail to obey the law? Yes. But with repentance and faith in Christ can come redemption.

    I’ll go out on a limb here, but there are no “forays into Christianity” anymore than there is being a little bit pregnant. It is pretty much basically an all or nothing, count the cost first according to Jesus, all in or one is all out commitment. It is about the saving of our souls, not the comforting of our psyches.

    So yeah, pretty much you and all the rest of us are going to run into a whole bunch of “thou shalt not” and “thou most certainly shall” things we don’t happen to like.

    But we don’t run the universe. He does. His court, His balls, His rules.

  135. ishy: I have seen abuse over and over in the church. It’s why I left the SBC … seminary classmates arrested for child molestation … one seminary classmate who Paige Patterson threatened into silence when she tried to report being raped … saw the takeover of NAMB and all women in positions above secretary get fired … pastor outright lied about his beliefs and plans for the church … forcing underpriviledged children out because they weren’t “classy” enough … stalked and assaulted by “Christian” men … forced out of seminary only 4 hours from graduation by lies and blackballing because I was a woman …

    Yep, there was a LOT wrong with SBC before the New Calvinists showed up to finish it off. It moved long ago from God’s blessing; a curse now rests upon it.

    JESUS IS STILL ON THE THRONE! … but not the SBC throne

    I’m out of church, but I’m not sorry. He still walks with me and talks to me. He forgave me long ago for playing church in the SBC for decades.

  136. ishy: It may not be “not all Christians”, but there’s enough of them just letting all this abuse happen that it happens A LOT.

    Worth repeating. I’m sorry you went through so much. You did right in leaving.

  137. Max: It appears that we have moved from darkness to gross darkness in America. Don’t mean to be doom and gloom, but I expect more days ahead with half-mast flags.

    Hopefully it won’t become a sadistic game…

  138. Jack,

    “This isn’t a bad thing but why do the important conversations happen after people die?”
    ++++++++++++++++

    indeed.

    just spewing thoughts – people are busy and preoccupied…

    religion is all about important conversations.

    taking into account both thoughts:

    why do the members of American Christianity (just to stick to one category) seem to stick to a standard list (curated for them by others) of such conversations?
    ———

    in the study of western music, creative thought and freedom of thought has been tamped down by christian powers. the only reason music has evolved from gregorian chants…

    (the only reason we have things like Rush, YES, McCoy Tyner, Bill Evans, The Stylistics, John Williams, Debussy, Brahms, The Nutcracker Suite)

    …is due to people who rebelled and rejected the rules and restrictions imposed by christian powerbrokers. (gah – rah-rah-ridiculous aliteration, i did it again)

    —————

    so, my cursory answer to why do the members of American Christianity (seem to stick to a standard list of such conversations:

    too busy and preoccupied with christianity itself to be circumspect about the consequences of its party line(s).

    too busy and preoccupied with loyalty and christian culture’s personal dividends to begin to even consider what needs to be rejected and rebelled against.
    .
    .
    (i’m in a rush — i know i’ve made sweeping statements — based on truth, though.)

  139. Max,

    Yes…. And, this is how all of us on TWW can really “help” people…. We need to encourage people to read the Bible themselves, and realize thar Christ did come to “set them free” from the law…. Unfortunately, too many people let “preacher boys” put them “under” their own “rules”..
    Now, before someone “flips out at me”, the NT is very clear with this freedom comes RESPONSIBILITY..

  140. Muff Potter: Interestingly, the writers of the Chicago Statement (inerrancy) disavowed hyperbole as a legitimate device when evaluating Scripture (article XIII).

    So what do they use instead?
    Quote, Quote Quote, Letter by Letter, Axiom, Axiom, Axiom, Fact, Fact, Fact?

    “When you point at something with your finger, the dog sniffs your finger. To a dog, a finger is a finger and that is that.”
    — attr to C.S.Lewis

  141. Friend: [asks grimly] So this Christian ministry compiled a map of alleged sex businesses?

    Well, we know of one guy who would have considered that a Target List.

    I suppose the men’s group has weekly PowerPoint presentations called “How To Identify Dirty Pictures.”

    This is commonly called “Porn for the Pious”.
    Get your fix (“Juicy! Juicy! Juicy!”) while staying Godly and Respectable.

    Wondering who all has used that map, and how. Nor am I convinced that this “ministry” knew what was going on inside any of those businesses.

    In Gem of the Prairie (his companion volume to Gangs of New York) Herbert Asbury wrote about “Sporting Gazettes” – Directories and Gossip Rags covering 19th Century Chicago’s sizable red light district. Their primary use was as what we’d now call “Sex Tourism Guides”, advertising various “resorts” and their specialties.

    I wonder how many “used that map, and how” was as “Just like a Sporting Gazette, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”

  142. Wild Honey,

    You have helped me greatly. Admittedly I have only read the blog To Love, Honor and Vacuum on this book — not the whole book. I think that using your information as a basis I’ll get the book from the library and do an extensive review and present it to my church board. Thanks!

  143. Godith,

    If you intend to get the church to stop using the book (it’s not clear, and I’m not presuming), you might want to have a few other books for them to consider. I don’t know your church, but it sounds like they believe in the model of the sole male breadwinner, where women stay home and submit to the husband. If that’s their firm position, they might not want to change it.

    I did get my prayer group to stop using a book one time, but we had all already bought it. At least we didn’t read past chapter 2.

  144. Jack: This my latest foray into Christianity lasted all of two months.
    In the old testament there were multiple wives, concubines, slave girls as nauseum!
    So was God wrong in the old testament?

    Years ago, a Jewish contact of mine explained it as “Subversive Wisdom of Torah”.

    Harem polygyny, concubines, sex slaves were what was NORMAL in Semitic tribal society. (We see this today in Saudi Islam, which is a lot closer to original Semitic tribalism than present-day Judaism. If ha-Torah spoke against this, they’d deem it Crazy Talk and go on with whatever they were doing. So ha-Torah had to get sneaky.
    * Harem polygyny – allow it, but chronicle its downside (like Abram & Hagar, or the family of David as King).
    * Honor Killing – regulate it in a way that defeats the purpose of the whole act; having to get permission in PUBLIC from “the elders at the gate”, i.e. the legal aurhorities. Which defeats the whole purpose of Honor Killing, i.e. dealing with the scandal in secret, “no one seeing, no one hearing, no one knowing” – Dead Jezebels Tell No Tales.
    * Slavery – regulate it to the point it’s less hassle to just hire a freeman’s labor than buy a slave’s.

    Naturally, everyone tried what’s now called “workarounds” and “life hacks” to get around this and continue doing “What I Wanna”/”The Way We’ve Always Done Things” – and kept getting called on it by prophet after prophet.

  145. Friend,

    I’d could use others’ input, but I’d recommend the marriage material by Brad Hambrick. Do not be put off by his association with Summit Church in Raleigh. I think he’s very on target. If anyone knows more about his work on marriage specifically, please respond.

  146. Godith,

    I don’t have any marriage books to recommend. At a glance, it looks like Brad Hambrick is not a licensed therapist.

    (Back in ancient times, the man who led our marriage preparation course at church was from our denom and was also a licensed therapist. The course was offered but not required.)

  147. Jeffrey Chalmers: We need to encourage people to read the Bible themselves, and realize that Christ did come to “set them free” from the law … before someone “flips out at me”, the NT is very clear with this freedom comes RESPONSIBILITY

    Indeed. Believers should never abuse their Christian liberties. We are not released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law. Sadly, TWW has chronicled many leaders in the Christian Industrial Complex who believe they can live that way. If you twist Scripture enough, you can justify about anything … but God continues to drop a plumb line of righteousness into the church which won’t let us get away with it.

  148. Godith:
    Wild Honey,

    You have helped me greatly. Admittedly I have only read the blog To Love, Honor and Vacuum on this book — not the whole book. I think that using your information as a basis I’ll get the book from the library and do an extensive review and present it to my church board. Thanks!

    Thank you, I sincerely appreciate your willingness to listen and do your own research.

    Reading through the book the first time, I kept thinking to myself, “But if my husband did this to me, I’d feel disrespected, not unloved…” Then when he said that women don’t have sexual desire, I realized Emmerson is operating with an extremely limited view of women. Observing the purchasers of erotica at any local bookstore could have told him otherwise. And I’m pretty sure Matthew McConaughey doesn’t go shirtless in movies for the benefits of his male viewers.

    Then, after reading what TLHV observed, I read the book again, thinking about the perspective of an abusive marriage, or even one in which a spouse is good-hearted but immature. It was eye-opening.

  149. Todd Wilhelm,

    Tangentially or not considered at all: anger, blame-shifting (which then removes inhibitions), anger management, murder, guns for murder, violence against vs empathy with other human beings, gender inequality instead of women as equal persons, easy way out of attacking random others when in personal distress.

    Are these topics in the teaching content of the alleged offender’s church and family? Post event, will these even be considered for discourse, for unpacking?

  150. Godith:
    Friend,

    I’d could use others’ input, but I’d recommend the marriage material by Brad Hambrick. Do not be put off by his association with Summit Church in Raleigh. I think he’s very on target. If anyone knows more about his work on marriage specifically, please respond.

    I found John Gottman’s book to be actually helpful, but his work (while from a Judeo-Christian perspective) is not specifically faith-based, if that’s something you’re looking for.

    If you find yourself agreeing with THLV’s assessment of Love & Respect, there are some they recommend, and a rubric for evaluating others. I haven’t read any of them (yet) other than Sheila’s own Nine Thoughts That Changed my Marriage, which I also found helpful. It was the first specifically Christian marriage book I read that actually mentioned boundaries. It is geared more toward women, but my recollection is that the principles would apply equally well toward men (the application just might look a little different).

    Your church may have already thought of this, but if I may offer a tangental two cents, I’d suggest being prepared to have resources to which to steer people who, after going through a marriage curriculum, realize they need more help. I am not in an abusive marriage, but found books by Leslie Vernick, Natalie Hoffman, and Diane Langberg have deepened my empathy and (still limited, admittedly) understanding.

    Does the church have a plan if a spouse says, “Hey, I think my husband/wife is abusing me” or “My spouse is watching porn/having an affair/gambling their income away” or “My spouse has an anger problem” or just “I think there’s something wrong in my marriage?” Is there a licensed counselor (or more, depending on the size of the church) that leadership can refer people to?

    Often, the response to “Hey, I think my spouse is abusing me” is “talk to the pastor/elders,” like they have all the answers. But what do you do when the pastor and/or elders are abusers?

    A church we left three years ago, we were in a small group led by an elder and his wife. His wife would say things periodically about her husband or marriage in general that would strike me as odd, but I could never put my finger on it. Like (when the wives met), “Girls, just have sex with your husbands” kinda out of the blue. Then, after a series of interactions my husband and I had with her husband (during which she was present) that culminated in us leaving the church, I connected the dots and realized, “Oh my gosh, her husband is a bully and manipulative and controlling and she thinks this is perfectly normal.”

    Very shortly thereafter, a friend from this same small group confided in me that HER husband “had anger problems” and “had done something to hurt our marriage.” They were recommended to do Biblical counseling. This same elder had told her husband, “It’s ok to be angry,” but apparently hadn’t followed it up with “And this is what is ok to do when you’re angry, and this is what’s NOT ok to do.” The friend was nervous about Biblical counseling and possibly being the recipient of twisted Scriptures. I observed that they could ask for a mentor couple to go with them. She said that this same elder and his wife were their mentor couple. Later when I asked how the counseling was going, she commented that she was really learning to have a better understanding of her own sin, and didn’t seem interested in elaborating, so I didn’t press. But my heart broke.

  151. ishy: Theology is just a tool to enforce power … And there’s all kinds of theology that can be used to coerce the masses.

    If my theology is more popular and more deceptive than your theology, I can attract the masses away from you. They will respond to my manipulation and domination and will never doubt or question me. I will hold the keys to the kingdom, authority and power over all within the sound of my voice. I alone hold truth … my theology is above all others … I own you.

  152. Wild Honey: “But if my husband did this to me, I’d feel disrespected, not unloved…”

    Truly, I think the inventors of complementarian marriage don’t know much about traditional marriages say 60 and 100 years ago in the US, when it was socially taboo for married women to work.

    The most saintly Christian elders in my family really did have a traditional marriage. She viewed him as the head of the household, and thought it was wrong for women to work outside the home. Did she defer to him in all things? No. This was not something women did, anywhere in my orbit, although they knew when to stay out of the man’s way and when to humor him. Couples divided up the responsibilities and tended not to stray onto each other’s turf. Wives participated in decision making, not always pleasantly. Husbands did not automatically win every argument.

    As a kid, I visited more than one small home where happy couples slept in separate beds or separate rooms. Women carved out their own identities in ways that would scandalize today’s complementarians.

  153. Friend,

    Licensure is somewhat meaningful, but not a guarantee. It is a licensed therapist at my church that is using Love & Respect!
    I did more research on L&R on Gregoire’s site. It clearly doesn’t follow Biblical teaching on confronting sin and loving one’s neighbor by doing so.
    I’ve heard good stuff before about John Gottman. Will check him out.

  154. Good news: Brad Hambrick’s website has nothing promoting Eggerich or his L&R book.
    Also Hambrick has written under “‘Eddie’ The Aggressively Self-Centered Spouse” this:
    “Because Eddie could not (or, at least, would not) see the badness of his actions, he began to view her withdrawal as being unloving and began to criticize her for this. Soon he began to quasi-acknowledge his faults but now they were the result of her lack of love and respect for him. His self-centered tactics had reached its crescendo, he was finally admitting his failure, but even that was being turned through questions and examples back on her. Everything in Eddie’s world served Eddie’s purposes.”
    I think “Eddie” had been reading Love & Respect!

  155. linda,

    Linda. I don’t know that you are following the comments correctly. A rejection of Purity Culture, doesn’t mean a person is signing up for the next swingers cruise. Let me clarify something…

    Purity Culture = Evil

    Abstinence from sex, prior to marriage, is not, was not, nor ever will be Purity Culture.

    Jim Bob Duggar is not someone who was a bit too strict in his interpretations.

    Jim Bob = Gothardite
    He was reported as a follower of Gothard.

    For many of us here…
    Gothard = Evil.

  156. Friend,
    Wild Honey,

    “…marriage…”

    ++++++++++

    I appreciated both of your comments, here (and others).

    i’m sort of jumping around in the comments, trying to do some kind of speed-reading technique i’m inventing on the spot. i don’t think it’s working — but i did catch these comments of yours.

    my thought: do we really need marriage books?

    it’s kind of like “How To Make A Gospel Cup Of Tea: 300 Pages Of Gospel-Insight On How, Why, Where, and When To Make A Sanctified Cup Of Tea That Glorifies God.”

    (barring complicated situations like abuse & betrayal) my observation is the more people analyze and agonize over marriage, the more problems are created.

    kind of like “too many cooks spoil the soup”. Too many instructions and advisors complicate it all needlessly, turning individuals and their relationships into Contortionists-For-Christ!

    The best marriages I’ve observed are those of people who practice no faith. What it comes down to:

    willingness to be unselfish

    A few other corollaries:

    -making the relationship a priority

    -treat each other with kindness and respect (treating the other they way they themselves want to be treated

    -communicating needs and wants plainly

    -making time for fun
    .
    .
    as i see it, the bible gives as much practical advice for having the best marriage now as it does for making the best cup of tea now (or best taco, best milkshake, best scuba diving,…)

  157. elastigirl: practical advice for having the best marriage

    I love your take on this. The problem is using the Bible as a how-to manual, rule book, what have you. Books send the message that if a couple follows particular steps, or the author’s special formula, the marriage will be happy. (Also the crops will come in on time, and the children will be well adjusted.)

    But the Bible does contain some messages that we use in our marriage. This was one of our readings at our wedding. It’s from 1 Corinthians 13:

    “Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

    Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end. For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part; but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.”

  158. Please stop hyping Summit Church’s Brad Hambrick, he has been subject of several articles here on TWW.

  159. Godith: Licensure is somewhat meaningful, but not a guarantee. It is a licensed therapist at my church that is using Love & Respect!

    I agree that licensure is no guarantee of quality. People without a license who nonetheless call themselves counselors really run the gamut, though, and nouthetic counseling is potentially damaging.

    You know far more about Brad Hambrick than I do. He at least doesn’t seem to come from the “blame the wife” school of thought. I defer to your judgment about how it all works. Blessings to you as you try to help improve your church’s program for engaged couples.

  160. Jerome,

    I had no idea that certain names and topics were not allowed. Surely my posts should not go through if they are anathema to the owner of TWW.
    Since when did you become Moderator of comments?

  161. Godith,

    I don’t know that you were hyping Brad Hambrick. His name was not familiar to me, but TWW has indeed posted about him. Anyone interested can search the phrase “wartburg watch brad hambrick” and view the results. Dee did not think highly of the church policy on registered sex offenders, which he apparently authored.

  162. Friend,
    Dee disagrees with his view of registered sex offenders. Understood. That does not mean he has nothing at all good to say. And you are right. I am not hyping Hambrick. I’m saying he makes sense on the Love and Respect issue. And on other marriage issues.
    I hope one needn’t do a search of each person of institution one wants to discuss on this blog, then review all posts, and then decide if t is “safe” to post on the topic.
    I’ve yet to find anyone I agree with on everything. Thank you.

  163. elastigirl: it’s kind of like “How To Make A Gospel Cup Of Tea: 300 Pages Of Gospel-Insight On How, Why, Where, and When To Make A Sanctified Cup Of Tea That Glorifies God.”

    If you actually put out that book, there are lotsa people out there dumb enough to pay $20 a copy just because It’s CHRISTIAN(TM). $50 a copy if you ghosted it and put a Christianses CELEBRITY’s name as the author.

  164. Friend: Truly, I think the inventors of complementarian marriage don’t know much about traditional marriages say 60 and 100 years ago in the US, when it was socially taboo for married women to work.

    I remember Mel Blanc’s autobiography (one of the few Celebrity Biographies I’ve read and would recommend). As an aside on his career during the 1930s, he matter-of-fact commented that “This was the Great Depression; it was a point of pride if your wife didn’t have to work.”

  165. Headless Unicorn Guy: “This was the Great Depression; it was a point of pride if your wife didn’t have to work.”

    Fascinating, and thanks for the recommendation. In a lot of places, a married woman would never have been hired. In my extended family, the married women stayed home because that’s what “ladies” did. And when the men were out of work, it got very bad indeed.

  166. elastigirl: How To Make A Gospel Cup Of Tea: 300 Pages

    No joke, I have known women alone at home who made two cups of coffee and put them on opposite sides of the table, and sat there talking to Jesus. “Oh, I was just hangin’ out with the Lord this morning,” they would coo, braggingly.

    (I’m so diplomatic that I never asked them what they think of the altars adorned with fruit in our many local Vietnamese restaurants.) 😉

  167. Friend,

    ha! very funny!

    and, indeed.

    …indeedy-doo-dah (…feeling a touch giddy cuz the challenging workday is done and i can relax with something that’s been chilling for quite a while, now…)

  168. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    i think my ship has come in!

    we’ll have a whole series. Gospel Tacos, Gospel BBQ, Gospel Scuba,…well, let’s make it Gospel Snorkeling to reduce the amount i have to start making up…

    hard back book, glossy workbook & dvd for small groups, promotional materials like banners and theme music…

  169. elastigirl,

    I love this question! And the principles you’ve observed.

    So I’ve only been married 10 years and may change my mind in another 10…

    I think marriages can be more complicated than they appear on the surface. (Maybe I’m just paranoid by my last small group.) The average book may not offer much to couples who are already healthy, but if done well can show what a “normal” range should look like, so couples who don’t fall in that normal know when to seek help.

    For couples who are struggling (abuse, immaturity, infidelity, mental health, etc.), I think a more targeted marriage book can help not have to re-invent the wheel and speed up the process toward healthy (whether marriage or divorce). And people in troubled marriages may be more comfortable seeing help anonymously from a book to start.

    I don’t think a book has to be “Biblical” to be helpful, but people will sometimes feel safer with someone who shares their worldview, and if they’re in a troubled marriage, they probably need to feel safe with the author if they’re going to actually benefit from the advice.

    And like any tool, a book has to be applied appropriately and of decent quality to actually help instead of harm. I think the evangelical church has a big problem with quality control (marriage books, parenting books, probably tacos too). Honestly, when I hear an influencer lamenting the decline of marriage rates, I think “maybe if you’d start focusing on the quality instead of the quantity, the quantity would naturally go up as people see how attractive a HEALTHY marriage actually is.”

    Thoughts?

  170. Lets be careful blaming churches for what mentally disturbed or evil people do. Lutheran churches teach grace, forgiveness. The BTK serial murderer Kansas City was president of his Lutheran Congregation and there was another Lutheran Church where the pastor and his secretary killed their respective spouses so they could be together. Do we blame grace or the possibility of forgiveness for giving these people the right to kill? I don’t condemn the Muslim religion because they have some crazies (See Boulder) but people are so quick to condemn Christianity for their lunatics. Why do we get such a kick by blaming institutions, churches, or parents for the action of disturbed people?

    My brother is n an institutional facility. He’s a paranoid Schizophrenic. I don’t blame his imperfect church or his imperfect parents. I don’t blame him either. We need to grow up and stop blaming everyone for others actions (insane or Evil)

  171. Wild Honey,

    heya.

    agreed, marriage is complicated. and i would suspect that most of the happiest-appearing marriages are more complicated than they appear.

    but then i think, why are we ‘afraid’ or worried about complicated? so what? it’s a given.

    you take 2 different human beings with a lifetime of experiences that have shaped who they are, and unite them together in the closest and most unified of relationships… sparks are going to fly.
    .
    .
    i think christian culture projects totally unrealistic ideals about just about everything. it’s driven by professional christians who create things to talk about so they have things to sell.

    “unrealistic” is happy and smiley and not being allowed to have problems. at least not for more than 46 seconds (the average time it takes to pray and praise).

    if you’re not happy and smiley and have problems, something is gravely wrong. you’re totally messing up, God is displeased, your status in the elite-human-being club (christian) is slipping, and your membership is in danger of being revoked.

    you might even feel the flames of hell are licking at your heels.

    you self-impose a guilt-trip and are racked with how in the world am i going to solve all these problems? (most of which aren’t even problems to begin with, just neutral things to work through)

    (hyperbole here, which is inherently based on what is real and true)
    .
    .
    sh|t happens. we do our best. with or without a smile. and so what.

    (abuse, infidelity, and betrayal are a different category, though.)
    .
    .
    i’m sort of Tangential Trixie, here, and not the paragon of succinct.

  172. Friend,

    No, my church definitely does not believe it the male bread winner model. We have wives who are doctors, lawyers, and nonprofit leaders.

  173. Jeffrey Allen:
    Lets be careful blaming churches for what mentally disturbed or evil people do. Lutheran churches teach grace, forgiveness. The BTK serial murderer Kansas City was president of his Lutheran Congregation and there was another Lutheran Church where the pastor and his secretary killed their respective spouses so they could be together. Do we blame grace or the possibility of forgiveness for giving these people the right to kill? I don’t condemn the Muslim religion because they have some crazies (See Boulder) but people are so quick to condemn Christianity for their lunatics. Why do we get such a kick by blaming institutions, churches, or parents for the action of disturbed people?

    My brother is n an institutional facility. He’s a paranoid Schizophrenic. I don’t blame his imperfect church or his imperfect parents. I don’t blame him either. We need to grow up and stop blaming everyone for others actions (insane or Evil)

    Jeffrey.
    Evil. The word is Evil.

    I did not say insane. But yes, there have been prominent, influential leaders that showed signs of mental instability. It’s why they have influential ministries. They’re fascinating people to watch.

    Why Evil? Because starting with roughly Balaam in Genesis, and ending in Revelation, we are constantly told of deceivers. They are Evil because they are enticing the people of God, to leave God and be destroyed. A different book in a different century, just introduces a new type of deceiver. I was 2000 years too late to meet Pharisees/Sadducees/Judiazers/ect. But I met Institute for Basic Youth Conflicts.etc.etc. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

    How would you feel if instead of professional care, your brother blundered into a 70’s Shepherding group, or an 80’s Gothard conference?

    Crabapple Baptist Church is not responsible for any persons actions. The person who committed the crime is responsible. But a basic understanding of Church History, is 2000 years of conflict. That conflict is both internal, and external. It is written:

    ..Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword…

  174. Godith: No, my church definitely does not believe it the male bread winner model. We have wives who are doctors, lawyers, and nonprofit leaders.

    That’s intriguing, given that the marriage book seems to encourage wives to stay home, and also to submit to husbands.

    Growing up, I knew some college-educated women who did not want the same for their daughters. If the daughters were allowed to go to college, it had to be a Christian institution selected by the parents. They would have said that times were different, and they were… but it boiled down to parents not trusting their children with the opportunities the parents had enjoyed.

    (These families raised the sons to be sole male bread winners, btw.)

  175. Friend: That’s intriguing, given that the marriage book seems to encourage wives to stay home, and also to submit to husbands.

    It’s hard (for me anyway) to fathom why present day fundagelical culture wants to transpose the mores of an ancient Semitic desert society into our here and now, and then claim it’s ‘Biblical’.

  176. Jeffrey Allen: Lets be careful blaming churches for what mentally disturbed or evil people do. Lutheran churches teach grace, forgiveness. The BTK serial murderer Kansas City was president of his Lutheran Congregation and there was another Lutheran Church where the pastor and his secretary killed their respective spouses so they could be together. Do we blame grace or the possibility of forgiveness for giving these people the right to kill?

    I think you don’t totally understand what this church believes. I don’t think that mainstream Christian beliefs (or even of other religions) would be a primary contributor. But New Calvinism is really an extremist sect of Christianity, not mainstream Christianity. Just like radical sects of other religions can radicalize people of other faiths.

    This is a church that believes that anyone who isn’t in their movement deserves horrible things done to them because God hates them. This is a movement that teaches that women are not fully human and created to essentially be slaves to men. This is a movement that teaches that anyone in their church doesn’t have free agency to leave or make their own decisions.

  177. Muff Potter,

    what a great story! i read it all. i was hoping Homeslice went home with Shana as a happy adoptee. but i’m sure it’s better the way it happened.

    truly, simple observation of life as it comes, whether through direct experience or through a deep-thinker who knows how to craft their writing, brings deeper understanding of God/Jehovah/Elohim/El Shaddai/Yahweh/Jesus/Holy Spirit than anything else.

    metaphors are the bee’z kneez.

    and kontrary karls are the best — you’re the reason we have Rush, David Bowie, Esperanza Spalding, Joni Mitchell, McCoy Tyner, Herbie Hancock, John Williams, Debussy, Brahms, and all the rest. among so many other expressions of fair & mutual freedoms (a list that grows too slow).

  178. Jeffrey Allen,

    “Why do we get such a kick by blaming institutions, churches”
    +++++++++++++++++

    it’s a duty to point out to oblivious christian leaders the power they and their words have.

    ‘faith’ seems to short-circuit circumspect and critical thinking. Too many are awareness-challenged, by nature, nurture, both(?).

    christian leaders too often are clueless how their theology, doctrine, and the words they say about it land like shrapnel if not a ton of bricks on human beings at ground zero. they are too often very careless with what they say.

    They haven’t thought things through, haven’t thought deeply about the implications for others — which is really a shocking dereliction of personal responsibility.

    the only “kick” to be had is in being able to right a very wrong ship for the sake of the least of these.

  179. Jeffrey Allen,

    Here is where I might disagree with you. There are some churches in which certain aspects of *teaching* are stressed over and over and over. For example, sexual purity/purity movement. I had a preacher, once, who would say “We cook the books when it come to certain sins.”

    Some of the teachings are distorted. For example, the term *purity.* I don’t know what you believe but I happen to know that no one is pure except for Jesus. Some churches teach that a person who, forgive me, masturbates is now ruined because he is no longer pure. A woman who has sex with her boyfriend has damaged herself and her her future husband. There is no going back.

    In fact, these folks who have endured this teaching, and I heard it myself, are definitely in need of grace. There is no one pure.

    Tie in the ridiculous problem with biblical counseling which claims everything is sin. It teaches that delusions are faked and schizophrenics cannot be Christians. Don’t believe me? Read my posts on the matter.

    We claim that involvement of church should play a significant role in our lives. Yet, when it comes to a disturbed man who had long been involved in his church, even a leader in his youth group, we want to say that church had nothing to do with it.

    That is naive unless you actually think that church doesn’t make a difference. I am not saying church *caused if* bur I refuse to say that church had nothing to do with the life trajectory of this young man.

  180. I gladly accept the critiques of my post. I have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that some churches teach what Dee exposed. I have gone to church all my life and I just cant imagine these things being taught. I was taught growing up what sin was and also that forgiveness allows one to continue your Christian life. My church experience has been
    traditional SBC and AOG. We joined a Lutheran church in Colorado when my SBC became Calvinist. I did not stick around long enough to hear the Garbage that some of you experience.
    However I used to believe that because my parents mishandled my brother when he started showing signs of mental illness that some of the blame belonged to them. However I grew to realize they did the best they could and that nothing would have stopped the progression of severe Paranoid Schizophrenia. They were crushed by how miserable his life was.I forgave them in my heart. If he was not medicated enough to stop a buffalo he would certainly become so paranoid to hurt people who he imagined were against him. He ended up being institutionalized after he viciously attacked my father. I was in high school and I ran barefooted into the street and begged the police not to kill my brother, that he was sick. I wonder if Long who killed these innocent people was following paranoid delusions. He is certainly the right age for Paranoid Schizophrenia to hit with a vengeance. Just to be fair my brother when his delusions are controlled is a delightful funny Christian man. I am in contact with him every day. He is obsessed with demons. I listen as long as I can then hang up. Unfortunately the 40 plus years of anti psychotic meds has taken a hard toll on his body. I do pray that he dies before I do so he won’t be alone.
    I think that I have seen a side of life that many well intended people have not seen. So much that goes wrong is just the result of a fallen sinful world. I can accept the fact that Sh****t happens and leave it at that.

  181. To edit my post let me state that I believe we allow too many disturbed people access to guns, and weapons. Good luck solving that problem short of a police state.

  182. dee: We claim that involvement of church should play a significant role in our lives. Yet, when it comes to a disturbed man who had long been involved in his church, even a leader in his youth group, we want to say that church had nothing to do with it.

    That is naive unless you actually think that church doesn’t make a difference. I am not saying church *caused if* bur I refuse to say that church had nothing to do with the life trajectory of this young man.

    Dee, thank you so much for this. For me those are healing words. You’ve helped me to articulate some things that happened long ago.

    In the church where I spent my teen years, we treated people so differently from people at school, neighborhood, etc. We had to accept different things and also reject different things. If someone had a problem, we could only discuss it in particular terms. Certain problems were taboo, of course.

    We were trained to overlook an awful lot. We missed clues, not just about risk but about distress. We were being taught to see life through a distorting lens. Everybody wanted to fit in, and everybody else helped that process along.

  183. elastigirl: and kontrary karls are the best — you’re the reason we have Rush, David Bowie, Esperanza Spalding, Joni Mitchell, McCoy Tyner, Herbie Hancock, John Williams, Debussy, Brahms, and all the rest. among so many other expressions of fair & mutual freedoms (a list that grows too slow).

    Here’s my favorite Brahms (Variations on a Theme by Haydn):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v2eBMsCuMc

  184. Muff Potter: Here’s my favorite Brahms (Variations on a Theme by Haydn):

    It will bring me to tears because it’s so beautiful and affirming of the human spirit.
    We’ve all heard the old shtick: “You have nothing in yourself to commend yourself to God…”
    As a father ,grandfather, and aficionado of the arts, I say horse poo-poo…

  185. Jeffrey Allen,

    I am so sorry for what your brother (and your family)nhas endured. i am sure it was horrific. Your brother sounds worse than Long was until the recent sad events. Remember, he was a leader in his youth group and was very involved, right until his rampage in the church.

    You were fortunate to miss most of the crazy Calvinist teachings. I was stuck experiencing some of them but God used it all for this blog. Do you know how many stories I have? I also believe many of the stories I hear because of my experiences. God took the bad, let me see it, and then gave me an idea of starting a blog to see if I was alone in my experiences. I am so grateful to have some of these wonderful folks around me, sharing their lives with all of us.

    After my decades of wandering in the “post-evangelical wilderness”(RIP Michael Spencer) my husband and I fell exhausted into a pew in a Lutheran church, looking for a change and found peace. I’ve also learned a whole bunch about the interaction of the Law and Gospel. We are incredibly happy there. How long have you been a member of a Lutheran church? Do you ever miss your old AOG days? Worship isn’t quite so lively in Lutheran churches. 🙂

  186. elastigirl,

    “Complicated” means different things to different people, I guess.

    My last small group had a wife enduring spiritual and emotional abuse, one whose husband had “anger problems” and cheated on her not too long after she suffered a life-threatening miscarriage, two with husbands who were “merely” completely checked out when it came to their children other than discipline, myself (more run-of-the-kill complicated), and two other couples whose marriages seemed healthy from what the wives shared and I observed.

    Just curious, is it self-help books in general or marriage books specifically you’re not a big fan of? Or mostly the ones labeled “Christian?” If the latter, while I’d agree that the “Christian” label doesn’t automatically mean “trustworthy,” I’d hope we don’t make the mistake of assuming the opposite, either, any more than we do with individual people. Not saying you are, just trying to clarify.

  187. Wild Honey,

    i’ve tried again and again to join in with christian culture on every level. joining many small groups with the chosen books. leading small groups with the chosen books (not chosen by me). reading books people lend me or give me out of pure love in their hearts.

    i kept hoping — but I just can’t do it any more. i’ll be short-winded and say i simply could find nothing useful or helpful to me in any of them.

    all in all, i’m extremely disappointed on many levels.

    i’m left with wondering, what in the world happened to my religion? or is the question what’s happened to me?
    .
    .
    i’ve found a way to live with faith in God/Jesus/Holy Spirit, that is a helpful, productive resource enabling me to give back to my community. and this is whatever the opposite of disappointed is (heartened, pleased…)

    i’m sleeping better than i ever have. so there’s that.

  188. Dee, I would like to say how much I appreciate your blog. 99% of your readers who comment are thoughtful, kind people, Christian or otherwise. If you need a comparison read the comments to the Fox Stories and Breitbart.

    Dee, we have something else in common. I get infusions of REMICADE for Psoriasis and PSA. My Psoriasis was real bad but thanks to a good dermatologist the PSA was diagnosed early and it has not progressed very far. My brother and my wife and I are singlehandedly bankrupting the Medicare system. I hope our immigrant friends have a lot of children to keep us oldsters going on SS and Medicare.

    I love the Lutheran liturgy and the church year. The people are kind. Their pastors are not CEO’s. If the Pastor gets too uppity the council is good at deflating him. I don’t consider that the mode or age of baptism is worth getting worked up over. We are baptized into Christ not a denomination and 3 year olds are Christian too. (Not the terrible twos however) We had one who screamed 24/7 for a whole year seemed like.

    To those who have fled the church, there are good Christian churches out there. You might have to investigate un familiar Groups. I have read that a lot of younger people are finding Eastern Orthodox to be a good haven and of course the Lutherans. The Pentecostal churches don’t have the meanness that is sometimes found in Baptist Churches. I realize that Pentecostalism is a bridge to far for some people. I don’t know much about Roman Catholics but I’m sure they are an option too for some.

    God truly loves everyone in Christ. That includes all you atheists too.

  189. Jeffrey Allen,

    I can partially understand what you are saying about being unaware..
    . while I have endured some “abuse”, in churches and parachurches years ago, in the last couple of decades I have attended much better churches..
    However, I could not believe, until really looking into it, how BAD it is in many churches… and I was shocked w/r to how many churches do not even publish their budgets, let alone allow sheeple voting…

  190. Friend,

    Unfortunately, allot of churches, and parachurch groups, do what you say. Their is a reason for the advise for a dinner party of “ just do not talk about politics and religion”. Unfortunately, to many churches disconnect themselves from reality, just like we see to an extreme in politics in the US…. if one does not follow the specific “ orthodoxy” of your tribe, look out….

  191. I have certainly experienced abuse. Around twenty years ago The Pastor(SBC) verbally abused the whole church during a sermon about tithing. If I told you what he said you wouldn,t believe me. We left instantly. We joined a crazy little AOG by our house. They did not abuse their members. I drove the church bus. We moved from CA to CO and I will always miss them. It was a special church to me.

    However what I meant was I was never exposed to the “Purity Culture” I can’t believe a church doing that. Of course I do believe what our fellow posters have said. I have gone to churches where you have single moms never married, but treated very well, even working with the youth groups. One lady also drove the church bus. No Scarlet Letters.

  192. Jeffrey Chalmers: orthodoxy

    This wasn’t even about teaching, but orthodoxy nonetheless. For example, girls and boys played basketball together in the church gym before youth group meetings. One boy, “Charlie,” was gentle and shy most of the time, but he pushed and elbowed roughly during basketball. I quit playing due to actual pain. The older boys put up with it.

    There was something medically and emotionally different about Charlie, but I don’t think he was a violent young man. Unlike the other boys, he simply could not dial back the roughness when playing with girls and smaller boys. He didn’t look mean to me, or even competitive. He looked anxious and awkward.

    Everybody had to defer to Charlie and let him play basketball his way, because he was in the youth group. Nobody cared about all the kids who gave up on the weekly basketball game. Nobody tried to help Charlie, because somehow that would have been “not Christian.”

  193. Friend: We were trained to overlook an awful lot. We missed clues, not just about risk but about distress. We were being taught to see life through a distorting lens. Everybody wanted to fit in, and everybody else helped that process along.

    Groupthink conformity on a level with The Buddy Bears?

  194. Muff Potter: Join the Klub.
    I’m a Kontrary Karl.

    You DO know that during the 1920s misspelling words to begin with “K” instead of Hard “C” – especially in threes – was a recognition signal of the Ku Klux Klan?

    (Local History. Posting this from the former “Klanaheim, Kalifornia”… Yes, Anaheim was a Klan town 100 years ago, with cross-burning Klonvocations in what’s now La Palma Park and the Knights of Columbus leading the anti-Klan Resistance out of St Boniface.)

  195. Nathan Priddis: How would you feel if instead of professional care, your brother blundered into a 70’s Shepherding group, or an 80’s Gothard conference?

    I blundered into a ’70s Shepherding Group “Fellowship” with a heavy mixture of Hal Lindsay. Bad Craziness, long-term damage.

    As for Got Hard, he’s known about in some places you wouldn’t expect.
    Like on YouTube “I Was In a CULT” testimony videos robo-reading from Reddit.

  196. Jeffrey Allen: Around twenty years ago The Pastor(SBC) verbally abused the whole church during a sermon about tithing. If I told you what he said you wouldn,t believe me.

    Most of us probably would believe you, because we’ve seen the same or similar (or sadly, much worse) from that group. Unfortunately, spiritual and church abuse is a very real thing and the damage can be pervasive and generational.

    Like elastigirl, I have walked completely away and I don’t regret it. Even among the mainline Christians I know, I haven’t found church to be a safe place, nor have I seen most Christians I know act with love and compassion to people outside their family and friends. I still have friends from Christian college in abusive relationships because of the church’s teachings. Most of my other college friends have long divorced, and abuse played heavily in many of those relationships. Some of my formerly reasonable seminary friends are now abusing others after being radicalized by New Calvinism.

  197. RZ (not THAT RZ),

    Dee, Google Wayne Carriker from HopeQuest. His behavior while a medical student at Emory sent him to prison. I can’t believe Sarah Pullman Bailey didn’t report on that part of the story.

  198. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    So many layers to this story. Was it a crime of misogyny? Of Racism? Of a confused young man tortured over his sexuality, in conflict with his religion?

    Has anyone discussed the young man’s Hitler youth haircut (why would anyone wear one of those?)? Is there a Ravi Zacharias component? This is the same town where RZ owned two such massage parlors–and RZ’s ministry was linked to Crabapple FBC’s site.

    Some of this is guilt by association, and may border on conspiracy theory. Forgive me for that.

    Interestingly, for you Hemingway aficionados in the flock, there is a story of a young man with this very sexual/religious conflict, but rather than go shooting up massage parlors, the young man harms himself. It’s not one of Hemingway’s more cheerful stories, despite the title: “God Rest You Merry, Gentlemen.” But here it is, if you can bear it.
    http://www.pfgpowell.plus.com/Pages%201/Resources/God%20Rest%20Ye%20Merry%20Gentlemen.pdf

  199. Ted: This is the same town where RZ owned two such massage parlors

    It’s still not clear whether these day spas were sex businesses, and whether Long was there to buy sex. (I don’t automatically believe the church’s account.)

    But you’re raising a new possibility. RZ’s demise and local businesses certainly would have been a major topic. Add in the map of businesses that local Christians wanted to close down, and a whole lot of upset… that would be a potent mixture for an unstable young man already in crisis, who just got thrown out of his parents’ home.

  200. Ted: Has anyone discussed the young man’s Hitler youth haircut (why would anyone wear one of those?)? Is there a Ravi Zacharias component? This is the same town where RZ owned two such massage parlors–and RZ’s ministry was linked to Crabapple FBC’s site.

    I grew up in the area and there are A LOT of massage parlors around. The ones that RZ owned were much fancier than the ones Long targeted. But that many of these parlors are trafficking isn’t much of a secret. The newspaper regularly reported police raided them, though it didn’t seem to change much.

    I’ve been to FBCC multiple times and know people that go there. There are a lot of SBC churches in the area, and FBCC is probably not big and influential enough to warrant the attention of RZ and friends. 10 of them could probably fit inside FBC Woodstock.

    I don’t trust the church’s response, either. They will probably go right back to telling people that seeking professional help for mental illness is evil and rebellion against God, along with shunning and blaming anyone who isn’t “fixed” by nouthetic counseling.

  201. Headless Unicorn Guy: You DO know that during the 1920s misspelling words to begin with “K” instead of Hard “C” – especially in threes – was a recognition signal of the Ku Klux Klan?

    (Local History. Posting this from the former “Klanaheim, Kalifornia”… Yes, Anaheim was a Klan town 100 years ago, with cross-burning Klonvocations in what’s now La Palma Park and the Knights of Columbus leading the anti-Klan Resistance out of St Boniface.)

    That’s sorta forgotten history. The LA Basin had a Klan enclave.

    In recent times I’ve developed an interest in post Civil War history. I wish I had understood the significance of White snd Black migration out of the South.

  202. Friend: It’s still not clear whether these day spas were sex businesses, and whether Long was there to buy sex. (I don’t automatically believe the church’s account.)

    ishy: I grew up in the area and there are A LOT of massage parlors around. The ones that RZ owned were much fancier than the ones Long targeted. But that many of these parlors are trafficking isn’t much of a secret. The newspaper regularly reported police raided them, though it didn’t seem to change much.

    I’ve long advocated a decriminalization of the sex-trade.
    Taxed and strictly regulated like any other business, along with the protection (rather than a ‘crime’ target) of law enforcement, I believe it could lessen the chances of unbalanced individuals like Long committing even more tragedies.
    I think it’s a rational and common sense approach.

  203. Ted,

    Ted. A friend told me about his Church’s weekend men’s retreat. The men broke into various 1 hour small groups, with various topics. Discussion leader talked on wines for the hour. My friend summed it up..facilitator is an alcoholic…discussions over..nuff said.

    Lots of young unstable Christian males are sexualy imploding at some point in their youth. There’s
    nothing unusual about sexual fictions. Simultaneously, Christians in leadership roles,often older, seek out said young males. It’s not a conspiracy, it’s just a reflexive act. Birds of a feather, flock together.

    The problem is eventually someone leaves the latest mentoring/counseling/teaching session, and commits a crime. Like a different friend of mine did.

  204. Muff Potter: I’ve long advocated a decriminalization of the sex-trade.
    Taxed and strictly regulated like any other business, along with the protection (rather than a ‘crime’ target) of law enforcement, I believe it could lessen the chances of unbalanced individuals like Long committing even more tragedies.

    I dunno. I definitely think the change in police protection might be helpful, but I also think the prices would go up due to taxation. Which still means people could be trafficked for cheap.

    I remember reading one article about a raid, and it noted that most of the women were promised decent jobs as nail salon artists when they were recruited overseas, but their passports, money, and freedom was taken as soon as they were brought to the US. I think there will always be people willing to use and abuse other people, even for a small profit.

  205. ishy,

    Ishy, you hit the nail on the head…
    Nouthetic counseling , since it blames everything on sin, has a perfect out…

  206. Jeffrey–so sorry about your brother. I have a son with a “broken brain” and get where you are coming from. Mental illness is hard to cope with, and everyone on the face of the earth seems to know just how to fix it, right?

    But broken brains are broken brains. And they hurt. And cause hurt.

    Prayers for your brother, and pray for my son!

  207. singleman:

    Paul K:

    I’m also curious to know more about these spas and the victims. Were they sex workers? Were they in coercive and abusive situations? Why were these workers considered a “temptation”?

    That’s a good question regarding one of the spas that the gunman targeted. One of the shooting victims was a female customer. Perhaps I could be mistaken, but I doubt there are many women wanting to be customers of a massage spa providing illegitimate services.

    I saw photos of some victims with their families, adult children and other relatives, which makes it seem very unlikely that illegitimate services were being imposed upon employees. Plus, they weren’t very young women, they were mothers and grandmothers.

    The Fulton County Medical Examiner’s office identified these women, between the ages of 51 and 74, when asked about victims of the spa shootings: Soon Chung Park, Hyun Jung Grant, Suncha Kim and Yong Ae Yue.

    Another victim:

    Paul Andre Michels, 54, of Atlanta

    Michels was a U.S. Army veteran who had been married for more than two decades and owned a home security systems company, his brother John Michels told NPR.

    Another victim’s description:

    John Beck, Yaun’s manager of three years, who grew close with her family, told BuzzFeed News that she would feed diners who were homeless and bring them home to offer them showers and clean clothes.

    None of these people appear to be doing sex work. I suspect the killer saw a sign that said “Asian Massage” and went off on his crazy…

    This is all from an NPR story, if that matters. They mostly quote relatives or the coroner’s office in the story. I quit, to sad to go on. These people were typical hard workers trying to improve their family’s lives, ordinary new Americans.

    Anyone who wants to accuse the victims in this mass killing should look in their mirror if they want to see evil.

  208. Ted: Has anyone discussed the young man’s Hitler youth haircut (why would anyone wear one of those?)?

    Not sure what a “Hitler Youth Haricut” is, but the shooter’s haircut was one of the worst I’ve ever seen. I understand the long on top with nearly-shaved sides was the “Tough Guy Buzzcut” of the 1930s and had something to do with German military haircut regulations, but the transition between near-shaved sides and long on top wasn’t that abrupt in the original hairstyle.

  209. Ted: You just described it, and gave historical context too.Are you sure you don’t know what it is?

    Here’s more :
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2016/11/30/does-this-haircut-make-me-look-like-a-nazi/

    The way someone told it to me was that German Army hair-length regulations (military haircuts) were concerned with keeping it short on the sides and back but didn’t mention the top. Young German soldiers took advantage of this omission and wore it as long as they could get away with on top. Nobody is as Cro-Magnon Anarchist as a pre-1945 German who’s found a loophole in otherwise-tight regulations.

    And this “buzz-cut on the sides only” spread to America as the “Tough Guy” haircut of its time. Remember all the Tough Guy and/or Thug characters in Thirties and Forties movies?

  210. Nathan Priddis: Simultaneously, Christians in leadership roles,often older, seek out said young males. It’s not a conspiracy, it’s just a reflexive act.

    That anything like the idea that you’ll tend to seek out those of the same physical age as your own emotional age?