The Founders Ministry Sort of Apologizes (Not Really) While Fred Malone, ARBCA, Quits the Founders Over A Sudden Attack of Conscience

Hubble Catches a Bounty of Stars and Cosmic Dust: NASA

This Hubble Space Telescope image shows the spiral galaxy Messier 98, which is located about 45 million light-years away in the constellation of Coma Berenices (Berenice’s Hair). Messier 98 is estimated to contain about a trillion stars, and is full of cosmic dust — visible here as a web of red-brown stretching across the frame — and hydrogen gas. This abundance of star-forming material means that Messier 98 is producing stellar newborns at a high rate; the galaxy shows the characteristic signs of stars springing to life throughout its bright center and whirling arms.

“It is not your business to succeed, but to do right; when you have done so, the rest lies with God.” – C.S Lewis


A weird apology from the Founders regarding their ill-regarded trailer.

William Thornton at SBC Voices wrote Finally, a formal statement about the Founder’s debacle. It was written by Tom Ascol: About that Trailer. Ascol admitted that Danny Akin and Al Mohler were none too happy with the trailer. Read the full statement. Ascol appears to be saying that some people in the. trailer were pressured to withdraw their support. They do not elaborate. Maybe it’s another one of those conspiracies….

Some other men have also asked that their interviews not be used, including Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman. Others have been pressured to withdraw. We will, of course, honor these requests.

They deny wrong doing.

Some have accused us of misrepresenting the words spoken by certain people who appear in the trailer. We do not believe we misrepresented anyone’s words.

…Some expressed concerns about a 1-2 second clip of Rachael Denhollander, accusing us of presenting her as demonic. Certainly, no one at Founders Ministries believes that and we did not foresee people taking it that way.

They express regret for unwise alignment of image and idea. (This is not a joke.)

Some expressed concerns about a 1-2 second clip of Rachael Denhollander, accusing us of presenting her as demonic. Certainly, no one at Founders Ministries believes that and we did not foresee people taking it that way. That was not our intention and, admittedly, not our wisest editing moment. We regret the pain and confusion we caused by this unwise alignment of image and idea.

They deny stirring up division.

It is obvious that faithful brothers and sisters can and do disagree on the issues involved. Some who agree on the issues disagree on the strategies for addressing them. I have friends in both categories who disagree with me. But I must respectfully disagree with those who say we are “stirring up division” by addressing these issues. Southern Baptists are already discussing these issues, and have been for some time. We do them a great disservice by pretending they are not, or that they do not deserve this discussion.

And, of course, they are going ahead full throttle because they are submitting to God.

Finally, my hope and prayer are that this film will bring desperately needed attention to teachings and practices that need to be reevaluated in the light of God’s Word. He has spoken. We live under the authority of His Word. It is imperative that we take Him at His Word and trust Him to guide us in His ways as we joyfully and confidently submit ourselves to it.

William Thornton put it this way.

Here’s a word not in the statement: “apologize”

Here’s another word not in the statement: “sorry”

Here’s  a word, used once, in the statement: “regret”

We regret the pain and confusion we caused by this unwise alignment of image and idea.
Not exactly a profile in courage or confession to speak of an “unwise alignment.” It was scurrilous. Glad he took responsibility for it.

Although Founders claims they are letting people remove their participation in the film, it appears that they are not doing so.

In the meantime, 3 people resigned from the Founders Board.

Here is a statement from the Founders website. Resignations from Founders Ministries’ Board

It appears that some of their board members believe that the Founders sinned. Of course, the Founders claims they didn’t do anything wrong.

It is with sadness that we announce the resignation of three members of the Founders Ministries board. Drs. Fred Malone, Tom Hicks and Jon English Lee have resigned this week after lengthy conversations about the release of and responses to a trailer for the planned documentary, By What Standard?

Our conversations led to an impasse regarding the nature of sin, unintentional sin, unwise acts and what faithfulness to Christ requires in the wake of each. Though each of these three men formulated his own arguments, their views led them all to conclude they could not conscientiously continue to serve Founders without agreement on these points as it relates to elements in the trailer. As the statements of Fred Malone and Tom Hicks below indicate, they believe we have sinned in how the trailer portrayed certain people and issues. Tom Nettles, Jared Longshore and I do not believe that. This is the fundamental point of the impasse that we reached.

Here is an excerpt from Tom Hicks’ resignation.

However, after the release of the recent trailer, I came to a strong convictional impasse with others on the Founders Board. We disagreed in love. We all tried to accommodate each other’s consciences as much as possible. We labored to work through our differences, but our respective differences remained. I was particularly concerned about the inclusion of Rachael Denhollander in the trailer, whom I did not see when I first watched it. Her presence in the trailer, along with other sexual abuse survivors, seemed to conflate sexual abuse with other problematic views of social justice. Jacob and Rachael communicated to me that her primary concern was not her portrayal as much as the portrayal of sexual abuse survivors and the conflation of sexual abuse with other issues. All the board members agreed that sexual abuse is very different from social justice issues, but we disagreed about how to go forward in light of the trailer.

Then there is the curious case of Fred Malone’s resignation and his *conscience.

However, the recent trailer about the upcoming video on “By What Standard” has created a growing difficulty of conscience within me which resulted in my resignation from the Board. Although I originally approved the trailer as a Board member, I did not exert my due diligence beforehand to closely examine it and to speak clearly about the “tone” of it. That is my failure as a Board Member. So, after I came to the knowledge of a confusing image which was Mrs. Rachel Denhollander (now removed from the trailer by Board agreement), I came to the conviction that I had sinned unintentionally in my approval and that the trailer itself committed a sin unintentionally of false witness against Mrs. Denhollander based upon the 6th and 9th commandment

Fred Malone was involved in the ARBCA coverup of Tom Chantry’s abuse.I’m G\glad to see he’s developing a conscience. See this post. Fred Malone’s admission of guilt.

Go to the post and read the transcript in which he admits to knowing about Chantry’s problems back in 2000.

Fred Malone of FBC Clinton, La. participated over the phone in the 2000 ARBCA investigation into the savage abuse of children by Tom Chantry. His contact was Don Linblad of ARBCA, both guilty of covering up Chantry’s heinous crimes.

Below is a portion of a conversation between Fred Malone and former FBC Clinton, La. deacon Anthony Battaglia. The call took place on Friday, July 28th 2017 beginning at 7:07 p.m. and lasted for 22 minutes.

Fred Malone currently works at First Baptist Church in Clinton, Louisiana. He served as a trustee for IRBS, on Administrative Council of ARBCA, the Theology Committee of ARBCA, and is now the Senior Fellow for IRBS. He also serves as a founding Board Member of Founder’s Ministries and has served as a Trustee for The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, Kentucky. He is also the Professor of Pastoral Theology at IRBS.

The Founders are running into trouble but Tom Ascol is a man with a strong ego who will carry on to save the SBC from evil people and ideas such as social justice, strongly women in leadership, etc. Yet they have men like Fred Malone who bears some responsibility for the direction of ARBCA which had hoped to save Tom Chantry from himself. Why does it seem so logical to me that The Founders would appoint Fred Malone to their board?

Do not be fooled.Tom Ascol is angling for a leadership position in the SBC. It is becoming more and more apparent he will make a play for SBC president.


Comments

The Founders Ministry Sort of Apologizes (Not Really) While Fred Malone, ARBCA, Quits the Founders Over A Sudden Attack of Conscience — 188 Comments

  1. Ascol was shamed into posting all this after a J.D. Hall exposé noting that the Founders board had suddenly, quietly shrunken by half:

    after Hall splashed this on his Facebook earlier in the week: https://www.facebook.com/PastorJDHall/posts/2098363767133554

    “Well, it sure looks like the Founders Ministries leadership section on the website has got smaller since that trailer fiasco”

    today a chastened Tom Ascol took to twitter to address the defections:
    https://twitter.com/tomascol/status/1157280857322917893

    “Rather than scrub our website without comment, our principles led us to issue statements….[regarding] the resignation of three members of the Founders Ministries board”

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  2. I often wonder what would happen with some of these leaders if they went on a social media fast, examined their organizations with a critical eye, and either reorganized or disbanded. They seem to be lacking essential critical thinking skills.

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  3. I think that the words “apologize” and “sorry” don’t appear in the statement is simple. They aren’t apologizing. They believe their documentary is necessary to stem the tide of what they feel is liberalism. I do think they owe an apology to Denhollander. She is no liberal firebrand.

    As for Ashley Easter, Dwight McKissic et al, why did they give interviews in the first place? Whether or not they knew that they planned to use the interviews for a documentary, they had to know that what they said would be on the record. On the other hand, if the Founders promised to remove the interviews, they should do it.

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  4. Right before the SBC meeting in June, Pulpit & Pen themselves put out a call for any ‘incriminating’ recordings that could be secured. Was JD trying to beat Founders to the punch?

    https://pulpitandpen.org/2019/06/08/pp-places-chick-fil-a-bounty-on-more-info-regarding-wokeness-of-sbc-leaders/

    “You might have heard this week of a courageous student at Southeastern Baptist Theological seminary who made available audio recordings of Danny Akin, president at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, calling Beth Moore ‘stupid’ and ‘dumb.’ Akin, not knowing he was being recorded, spoke candidly about Beth Moore…You can read about Akin’s comments [here], or watch JD discuss them [here]”

    “Pulpit & Pen is not above providing bounties for…audio recordings or information regarding the candid opinons of denominatonal leaders on the subject of political correctness or wokeness…We are offering $50 gift cards to Chick-fil-A”

    While this may not seem like a lot of money, the last we heard, fried chicken is like cocaine to Baptists…And although this may seem like a fun troll (and it is), we are absolutely serious. To submit tips or information, email us at talkback@pulpitandpen.org

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  5. Tom Ascol writes about board members having ‘extensive experience counselling individuals and churches that have been devastated by sexual abuse.’ How effective was that counselling? Did it bring hope and healing, or did it minimize the abuse and blame the victims?

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  6. Everything everyone is posting here gets creepier and creepier by the minute!

    On the subject of the documentary, I remember watching the live videos of the rally, and someone panned over to Jared interviewing one of the attendees, I think Ashley Easter. He had this predatory, gleeful look on his face that I can’t forget. It was like the old cartoons with the villain rubbing his hands together gleefully after he’s come up with a plan.

    I don’t believe for one second they didn’t know what they were doing with the trailer, and that this was what they had in mind all along for the documentary. But I think they really thought they’d get a whole bunch of people on their side, and to anyone with common sense, it’s no surprise it backfired on them.

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  7. “Tom Ascol is angling for a leadership position in the SBC. It is becoming more and more apparent he will make a play for SBC president.”

    If so, the New Calvinist vote will knock him down … there are far more young reformers who attend annual meetings than old reformers; they will be tweeted from coffee shops to the convention floor to vote against Ascol. The SBC battle for the throne is now between the “Old” Calvinists (the Ascol camp) and the “New” Calvinists (the Mohler camp). SBC’s majority of non-Calvinists have no leadership champions left in their ranks it appears.

    The Founders group is imploding. Ascol shot himself in the foot with the documentary.

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  8. Estelle:
    Tom Ascol writes about board members having ‘extensive experience counselling individuals and churches that have been devastated by sexual abuse.’ How effective was that counselling? Did it bring hope and healing, or did it minimize the abuse andblame the victims?

    I’m betting it was the second, based on Ascol and the others’ theology.

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  9. Ken P.,

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2019/06/17/observations-of-sbc19-and-a-condemnation-of-the-founders-who-disrespected-victims-of-sex-abuse-at-the-rally/

    Scroll down to the part about the Founders & their treatment of Ashley Easter & Kyle Howard.

    Also, both have responded to this on Twitter.

    Nutshell version: at For Such a Time as This Rally, Easter & Howard were there to focus on abuse prevention & response, period. The Rally wasn’t at all about making theological points, but they did want to draw media attention to their cause. So when Founders initially approached Easter & Howard, they seemed to be another media outlet. However, Longshore & Ascol didn’t make clear who they were and what their documentary was about. If they had, Easter & Howard probably would have avoided them from the outset.

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  10. Eli,

    I read the post when it came out and I understand your point, but it may have been wiser for them to only answer questions about abuse. All media outlets are capable of twisting responses to support their own agendas (especially the SBC leaders should have known better).

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  11. Eli: Longshore & Ascol didn’t make clear who they were and what their documentary was about

    Much has been said about the stealth and deception within SBC’s reformed camp on this blog and elsewhere. It is not surprising that these ole boys approached participants at the For Such a Time as This Rally in this manner.

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  12. Linn: They seem to be lacking essential critical thinking skills.

    No doubt about it. And Dee points to the root cause within both the Old and New Calvinist camps of SBC when she states “… Tom Ascol is a man with a strong ego …” Arrogance clouds your thinking and there’s a heap of that in the leadership ranks of the new reformation. Pride cometh before a fall. The Founders movement is falling; the New Calvinist movement is heading that way.

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  13. Max,

    Because they are deceitful

    Estelle: Tom Ascol writes about board members having ‘extensive experience counselling individuals and churches that have been devastated by sexual abuse.

    I do not believe him.

    Tom Ascol presents himself as a rape victim hating, self-serving, liar.

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  14. Ken P.: As for Ashley Easter, Dwight McKissic et al, why did they give interviews in the first place? Whether or not they knew that they planned to use the interviews for a documentary, they had to know that what they said would be on the record. On the other hand, if the Founders promised to remove the interviews, they should do it.

    The Founders’ agreement to omit whole interviews proves that their project stinks to high heaven, in my opinion. They should scrap the project.

    I’m not a journalist, but I have interviewed people. An off-the-record interview, or comment within an interview, has to be agreed before the interviewee speaks. If someone agrees in advance to talk on the record, the interviewer can use the material. Are the Founders admitting that even their on-the-record interviews are hopelessly skewed?

    I view the act of surprising people at the For Such A Time As This rally as a set of ambush interviews, even though the rally was a public event. Ambush interviews are a tool of journalism, but they should be used with care, say to confront an elected official suspected of corruption who refuses to face voters or the press. It looks like the Founders planned to discredit people at the rally, rather than to surprise them into disclosing information of value to the public.

    Lisa Guerrero’s video of Kenneth Copeland is an ethical example of an ambush interview with religious content. It is very dramatic (attracting the kind of attention the Founders would like). I believe the content serves public interest:
    https://www.insideedition.com/media/videos/preacher-kenneth-copeland-defends-his-lavish-lifestyle-full-interview-53090

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  15. Ishy: “I remember watching the live videos of the rally, and someone panned over to Jared interviewing one of the attendees, I think Ashley Easter. He had this predatory, gleeful look on his face that I can’t forget.”

    Yes, check out this photo of Pastor Jared Longshore (at center) ‘sizing up’ Ashley Easter and Kyle Howard?

    https://www.facebook.com/forsuchatimeasthisrally/photos/a.2372278962810110/2372279942810012/?type=3&permPage=1

    Here was Pastor Jared Longshore (at right) positioning himself with the real media. I think that’s fellow Founders operative Hannah Ascol next to him in the brown culottes:

    https://www.facebook.com/forsuchatimeasthisrally/photos/a.2372278962810110/2372279896143350/?type=3&permPage=1

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  16. New commenter- “Guest”

    I cannot approve you comment due to the discussion of Braxton Caner. I have been involved in this situation from the very start (contacted when the suicide occurred) and am aware of what has gone on behind the scenes. Even recently, there has been much turmoil behind the scenes. I happen to know that there has been some ongoing reconciliation behind the scenes between some parties and blame has been put where it deservedly rests. More than that, I cannot say.

    I would ask that Braxton Caner no longer be discussed tea that the family be prayed for instead.

    If you could change your comment to reflect the intent of this post which is Tom Aacol and the Founders, I would be happy to approve it.

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  17. Oh, and gotta love this quote from Pulpit and Pen about why the Denhollander’s should be targeted in the documentary:

    “However, Denhollander’s husband has used the victimization to become an outspoken (and insufferable) advocate for Social Justice, even on issues far removed from sexual abuse. Denhollander received much sympathy, as is to be expected in a culture that is immersed in victimology and its role in Identity Politics, in his complaints about his wife’s image in the trailer.”

    https://pulpitandpen.org/2019/08/01/founders-board-splits-in-two-over-controversial-trailer/

    These guys don’t even know how to define “social justice”, much less support some huge anti social justice movement.

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  18. Max:
    “The Founders Ministry Sort of Apologizes …”

    Ascol’s “I’m sorry, but …” is not a real apology.I know a lot of folks in the SBC who have a big “but” these days.

    Now, now, Max, none of that fat shaming. 🙂

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  19. Estelle:
    Tom Ascol writes about board members having ‘extensive experience counselling individuals and churches that have been devastated by sexual abuse.’ How effective was that counselling? Did it bring hope and healing, or did it minimize the abuse and blame the victims?

    If it was nouthetic counseling from the Jay Adams model, I think it’s safe to say that the one being counseled is advised to examine the role they played in their abuse. Translated: The way in which they were complicit in their abuse.

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  20. ION: Cricket

    AWWBA, The Ashes are underway. At the time of writing, we’re at about the mid-point of the First Test at Edgbaston. And an intriguing Test it has been.

    Australia won the toss and batted; a strong performance in the field from England reduced them to 128-8 before a superb 144 from Steve Smith, ably assisted at the other end by Peter Siddle (44) more than doubled that score for the final 2 wickets to give Australia a first-innings total of 284. In reply, a maiden Test hundred from Rory Burns (who went for 133) contributed to a first-innings lead of 90 for England. England’s tail wagged too, with the 9th wicket adding 65 after a flurry of wickets fell to the new ball with the score around 300.

    Australia’s second innings is well underway; currently 83-3. With the scores almost level, 7 Australian wickets in hand and England facing a difficult 4th-innings chase, you have to say Australia are in a strong position. Nonetheless, it’s been a good first match.

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  21. ishy,

    If I were to create an antithesis of the kingdom of the God who became human and immersed Himself in our existence, I could think of no better tools than a pulpit and a pen. Words, but no example.

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  22. Darlene: If it was nouthetic counseling from the Jay Adams model, I think it’s safe to say that the one being counseled is advised to examine the role they played in their abuse.Translated: The way in which they were complicit in their abuse.

    And to add to my comments…
    After the abuse victim faces how they were complicit in their abuse, they are then encouraged to repent of their sin. And then approach the abuser and tell them, *I forgive you.*

    I consider this kind of counseling a means of abusing the victim all over again. The responsibility is taken off of the abuser and placed on the one who was abused. The victim then begins to question themselves: What was it that they could have done that would have prevented their abuse?

    Sin leveling is a common technique used to minimize the actions of abusers. It is quite effective in many Christian communities.

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  23. Friend: They deliberately give it a scary cartoon definition, hoping nobody will ask what actual social justice proponents say and do.

    Not just scary cartoon definition, but actual stills of allegedly scary, scary people, like Nadia Bolz-Weber, protesters, SJWs and Sen. Bernie Sanders. I’m not fond of the two named people for different reasons, but the fact that those two, and the shots of protesters who were dropped in, when they have virtually nothing to do with SBC problems is a huge red flag indicating that trailer (and the subsequent film) are just rank propaganda. And I didn’t even mention how the pictures were pretty much stripped of their color so it was clear that the scary people/groups are not the righteous, like the full-color Founders people.

    They’d have done better to drop ME in. At least I’m open that I’m hostile to their anti-SJW positions and I’m not afraid to protest a church somewhat associated to Founders and its aims (even if that church/cult is not part of the SBC). But I’m also clear that I am my own person, I represent myself and no organization.

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  24. Founders’ quote: “Our conversations led to an impasse regarding the nature of sin, unintentional sin, unwise acts and what faithfulness to Christ requires in the wake of each.”

    It appears they are saying that you don’t have to apologize for anything that was “unintentional”. So if a person is backing out their car and accidentally runs over their neighbor’s child, no need to get out and apologize. If your children are playing and Johnny pokes Susie in the eye with the stick, you tell Johnny he doesn’t need to say he’s sorry because, of course, he didn’t mean to do it.

    No need to feel or express any sorrow for the harm and pain you cause to others if it was “unintentional”??? I’m thinking you don’t need to be a Christian to know that reasoning stinks.

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  25. A glimpse into how Ascol’s mind works…

    Ascol relating how he almost got to make a big statement on abuse at the 2018 Convention:

    https://tomascol.com/the-question-i-did-not-get-to-ask-at-the-sbc18/

    “Russell Moore, president of the ERLC…spoke passionately about the organization’s concern for the protection of women..he announced an extensive study on abuse in churches that the ERLC is sponsoring with LifeWay.”

    “I arose during his report and went to a microphone…[with a] question about…not tolerating…abuse. Unfortunately, other messengers were recognized before me and I didn’t get to speak before time expired.”

    “‘What were you going to ask?’ That question is still being put to me from friends and acquaintances across the SBC.”

    This: Why did Russell Moore’s ERLC “host a conference in the name of a known woman abuser?”

    “The ERLC sponsored a conference in April named after Martin Luther King, Jr….a known woman abuser and a serial adulterer.”

    “When people in denominational positions commit sexual sin, they are dismissed with little to no hesitation. Their contact information is erased as if they never were part of the SBC entity no matter how effective they were in their work”

    “Dr. King…[what about his] infidelity and violence against women?”

    “As a Southern Baptist pastor, these are questions I would like to have addressed”

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  26. ishy: These guys don’t even know how to define “social justice”, much less support some huge anti social justice movement.

    What really galled me is that they had the mendacity to crib a line from an old Dylan song The times, they seem, are a’changing…

    I wonder if they have any inkling that when all’s said and done and at day’s end, they’re the ones who’re gonna’ sink like a stone…

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  27. Mary27: No need to feel or express any sorrow for the harm and pain you cause to others if it was “unintentional”??? I’m thinking you don’t need to be a Christian to know that reasoning stinks.

    I don’t believe they were unintentional about it anyway, especially in light of their buddies at Pulpit and Pen justifying it all. And if Ascol’s goal was to create enough support for him to run for SBC president, he’s not only wrong, but not that smart to boot.

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  28. Ishy: I don’t believe they were unintentional about it anyway, especially in light of their buddies at Pulpit and Pen justifying it all.

    I agree that they are using “unintentional” as a cop-out. However, as an outsider looking in, I am appalled by the callousness of their attitude. They really don’t care who they hurt. Where is that verse… the world will know we are Christians by our ruthless determination to prove we are right???

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  29. Mary27: It appears they are saying that you don’t have to apologize for anything that was “unintentional”.

    Why should one apologize for something that was decreed in eternity past? I suppose they could argue that apologizing for such events would be an admission that such events don’t bring glory to god, and since everything that happens was decreed to happen for the glory of god, it would somehow detract from god’s glory to apologize. Also, it could be that I was predestined to post this comment.

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  30. Mary27: Where is that verse… the world will know we are Christians by our ruthless determination to prove we are right???

    I don’t think a lot of these guys care one bit about theology except in how it might get them power and perks. Just like cult leaders.

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  31. “And then we talk ourselves into outsmarting the Bible . . . and then you wake up one day and you’re egalitarian,” with an accompanying image of controversial Lutheran pastor Nadia Bolz-Weber (from the By What Standard trailer, 1:51-2:02).

    1. This ideological refrain among Ascol &c. reveals their primary interpretive problem: they equate their understanding of the Bible with the Bible–the very words and thoughts of God Himself. This is the height of arrogance.

    “So if we can take a CLEAR passage of Scripture, that says ‘I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority,’ when we’re finished with it, it now says ‘I DO permit a woman in some cases,’ then there is no stopping where you can take that where that will go” (2:11-27).

    All passages within his theological framework are “clear” and those who oppose the same have an “insidious” (3:03-04) agenda.

    “Liberal Christianity did not die; and they’re here with a vengeance” (2:41-46). This is “enemy” language. Conservatives=righteous. Liberals=unrighteous.

    2. Instead of using an image of, say, the late Dr. Roger Nicole, himself a Southern Baptist egalitarian, they carefully and cunningly use the image of a seeming radical in order to frighten their target audience.

    3. They carefully chose every word, every image, and they gleefully harbor an “us vs. them” mentality, with “us” being the righteous (the elect), and “them” being the godless. This is sin and it is evil.

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  32. Cricket

    By stumps on Day 3, Steve Smith showed that he is set to be the giant that towers over England and wins the Ashes for Australia – it often happens that way in Ashes series, for some reason. The teams are evenly matched apart from one player like either Mitchell Starc who destroys the England batting order in innings after innings, or – as in this case – Smith who scores hundreds at will and bats England out of the game. The fourth-wicket stand is looking impregnable and England are left with an unreachable run chase by the second half of Day Four.

    So, the first win in the 5-match series goes to Australia. With England losing their first test at Fortress Edgbaston in several years, the remainder of the Ashes looks set to be an embarrassing formality.

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  33. Jerome: “The ERLC sponsored a conference in April named after Martin Luther King, Jr….a known woman abuser and a serial adulterer.”

    This Ascol is quite the aspiring provocateur, going after MLK in the name of social justice. How very #MeToo of him.

    It is possible that Ascol had read about some old FBI notes, recently viewed by a historian, alleging that MLK witnessed a sexual assault. The FBI under J. Edgar Hoover worked to smear MLK as a commie, and was eager to expose his adultery in inflammatory terms, and tell the world he smoked cigarettes. Hoover called MLK “the most dangerous Negro of the future in this nation from the standpoint of Communism, the Negro and national security.” The bureau sent MLK an anonymous threatening letter in 1964, urging him to end his own life.

    Here is an article about the highly questionable value of the recently discovered FBI notes: https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/05/30/irresponsible-historians-attack-david-garrows-mlk-allegations/?utm_term=.2d8ef97b8c04

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  34. Ken P.: All media outlets are capable of twisting responses to support their own agendas

    This wasn’t a media outlet, though. It was Christians who also claim to be leaders acting like lowlife media grunges. Is this what people are to expect from Christian leaders? No wonder nonChristians laugh.

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  35. Bridget: It was Christians who also claim to be leaders acting like lowlife media grunges. Is this what people are to expect from Christian leaders?

    Within the christian industrial complex, that’s exactly what we should expect. These are people whose contempt for God runs so deep that they openly hawk his stuff for profit in the very places where he is most loudly “preached”.

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  36. The Founders are the Pharisees of the Church.

    Big on keeping a legalistic form of law.
    Nil on the heart of the matter.

    Apologizing would mean having to lower oneself to speak to mere mortals and (gag) perhaps a woman.
    Saying “I’m sorry,” would entail caring about the heart of a lay person.

    There is no place for love where law abounds.

    It’s easy to sit on a throne of one’s own making, convincing others that it is a holy seat, making declarations and setting edicts. The thing is, the power and accolades rarely stand the test of time. Ask Tomczak, Mahaney, Detwiler, Chantry….

    If only they understood how utterly ridiculous they sound to people outside of their narrow realm.

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  37. Oh boy, J.D. Hall yammering on to Religion News Service about minutae of TULIP tribe labels, meanwhile yesterday he and his Pullet & Hen squawkers put out a fake news article announcing that Al Mohler had left the The Gospel Coalition!

    Although Hall’s since pulled down the howler, it’s still indexed by Google. Just search “BREAKING Albert Mohler Quietly Leaves TGC”.

    Here’s some highlights from J.D. Hall’s ‘story’:

    “BREAKING: Albert Mohler Quietly Leaves TGC Leadership Board. by News Division · August 2, 2019. In 2014, Mohler wrote the self-help leadership book, Conviction to Lead, blowing his own horn as an example of real leadership…In Mohler’s book, which graces one of the shelves in my church library labeled ‘not recommended’ (it was purchased by Cooperative Program money and given away by the thousands to Southern Baptist pastors), he opines on the importance of taking ownership and responsibility for the for the organization you lead.”

    “Mohler was listed on the leadership board of The Gospel Coalition. And now, he’s off the website altogether. However, it was there just a few days ago. Here’s a screenshot. Now, he’s gone. Check the Wayback Machine and see for yourself. Compare it to today’s website. **POOF** It’s gone.”

    “I suppose a little (tiny little) attaboy is due to Mohler, who I was about ready to (again) eviscerate for leading a godless, Marxist, gay-affirming organization like The Gospel Coalition.”

    Classic J.D. Hall!

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  38. Jerome: “I suppose a little (tiny little) attaboy is due to Mohler, who I was about ready to (again) eviscerate for leading a godless, Marxist, gay-affirming organization like The Gospel Coalition.”

    Classic J.D. Hall!

    This makes me crack up laughing. TGC is hardly a Marxist, gay affirming organization. Godless, maybe. But the rest, nope.

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  39. Ken F (aka Tweed): Could the alliance between Founders and the YRRs now be broken?

    I don’t think there was ever much of one. The “Old” Calvinists didn’t agree with the message and method of the “New” Calvinists, but put up with them as long as the neo-brethren accomplished what the ole boys couldn’t after decades of trying … Calvinization of a once-great evangelistic denomination. The YRR never really liked the Founders … they aren’t cool enough and too mean-spirited. Mohler was the middle-man who tried to link the two Calvinist camps within SBC, but the latest Ascol shenanigans have caused a rift. The mainline (non-Calvinist) pew probably won’t notice this, however … to date, millions of Southern Baptists have been willingly ignorant about the trend toward Calvinization (just don’t mess with their chicken dinners!).

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  40. Max: I don’t think there was ever much of one. The “Old” Calvinists didn’t agree with the message and method of the “New” Calvinists, but put up with them as long as the neo-brethren accomplished what the ole boys couldn’t after decades of trying … Calvinization of a once-great evangelistic denomination.

    This could be a bit more complicated. A few years ago I submitted a question to Founders and had a short email dialogue with Stan Reeves, the Founders Web Master. Stan is one of the founding elders of a 9Marks and TGC church in Auburn, AL. I suppose Stan and his church will have to choose whether they want to align with Founders or TGC and 9Marks. I suspect there are other churches in the same situation.

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  41. William Birch: 3. They carefully chose every word, every image, and they gleefully harbor an “us vs. them” mentality, with “us” being the righteous (the elect), and “them” being the godless. This is sin and it is evil.

    They have learned a lot from the sad attack on truth happening in our world today.

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  42. You can’t help but chuckle at these guys now trying to make ‘New Calvinist’ some sort of an epithet against their opponents.

    Remember when Founders themselves were the ‘New Calvinists’? Apparently J.D. Hall doesn’t.

    Example: Broadman & Holman’s The Baptist Heritage by Leon McBeth
    https://books.google.com/books?id=aqW4AwAAQBAJ&pg=PT923

    “a number of Southern Baptists have embraced the new Calvinism. The group had enough cohesion to form a journal, distribute literature, and sponsor a national conference on Calvinism in 1983. Ernest C. Reisinger, pastor in Florida, is one leader of this group. Others include Tom J. Nettles”

    Even Tom Ascol as recently as 2012 was COMMENDING a journalist’s using the term “new Calvinism” (in reference to the resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC) in a story about one of his Founders churches:

    https://tomascol.com/resurgence-of-calvinism-noted-by-louisville-courier-journal/

    “The Louisville Courier-Journal and writer Peter Smith are to be commended for an even-handed treatment of “new Calvinism” and the way it is exemplified within the Southern Baptist Convention…It is encouraging to see and read honest reporting about the resurgence of the doctrines of grace from a secular source.”

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  43. Jerome: “Dr. King…[what about his] infidelity and violence against women?”

    “As a Southern Baptist pastor, these are questions I would like to have addressed”

    1. I think that is a bunch of urban legend
    2. Does he hold everyone to this standard?

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  44. Jerome: Tom Ascol as recently as 2012 was COMMENDING a journalist’s using the term “new Calvinism” (in reference to the resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC) in a story about one of his Founders churches

    Ascol was trying to jump on Mohler’s bandwagon at the time … trying to ride the New Calvinist wave. Ascol has been largely absent in that movement, preferring to hang with the ole boys in the Founders group … you can’t mix oil and water. Mohler was once a darling of the Founders Ministries, but he knew something new and improved would be necessary to Calvinize the SBC … so he struck out with Mahaney, Dever, Duncan, Piper, etc. and put Ascol and Nettles in his rearview mirror. The Founders and New Calvinists are two totally different groups in personality and methodology, loosely linked by the doctrines of grace. The whole cast of characters – in both camps – are a strange lot.

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  45. <blockqu

    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: This makes me crack up laughing. TGC is hardly a Marxist, gay affirming organization. Godless, maybe. But the rest, nope.

    Wish I could laugh but a friend wrote the same thing to me this past week, adding that T4G and TGC promote social justice. I’m thinking, wait what? Where is this coming from? Is JD Hall saying stuff like this? The Founders? Someone help me out here.

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  46. Remnant: The Founders are the Pharisees of the Church.

    Big on keeping a legalistic form of law.

    Maybe they should be called phounders.

    Seriously, I’ve never heard of these clowns.

    Why is this a big deal? I’m not being facetious.

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  47. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: This makes me crack up laughing. TGC is hardly a Marxist, gay affirming organization. Godless, maybe. But the rest, nope.

    But TGC is NOT The Founders, and that is enough.

    The Predators have eaten all the Prey, and still hunger.
    There Can Be Only One One True Way.

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  48. Max: J.D. Hall is right about one thing when he tells the press outlets “Founders Ministries Is Not Neo-Cal” … they are true-blue-hyper-Calvinists to the nth degree. They are repulsed if you call them New Calvinist.

    Semantics, My Dear Wormwood.

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  49. Jerome: “Mohler was listed on the leadership board of The Gospel Coalition. And now, he’s off the website altogether. However, it was there just a few days ago. Here’s a screenshot. Now, he’s gone. Check the Wayback Machine and see for yourself. Compare it to today’s website. **POOF** It’s gone.”

    As of today, “MOhler” NEVER Existed, Comrades.

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  50. As the Ashes are already over as a contest before they have started, I’ll need to replace cricket with an alternative. The fitba’ season is starting about now, but Liverpool look set to struggle this year after a difficult summer (half of our main players were involved in tournaments and didn’t get a proper break). I’m suspending sports commentary, therefore, until I think of something.

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  51. Wild Honey: I felt the same way when reading the “PSA” on Pulpit and Pen about the differences between the Founders and the neo-Cals.

    I think the main difference is that they want to be different. The New Cals have no problem lying about who they accept in their camp, and the Founders have no problem lying about what the New Cals believe, so I can’t see much difference.

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  52. Perhaps all of this is a blessing in disguise. If the “Old Calvinists” and the “Neo-Calvinists” keep pecking away at each other, maybe they’ll leave the rest of us alone and this whole movement to ‘Calvinize’ the SBC will implode and go away!
    Didn’t some Jewish Carpenter mention something about divided houses not being able to stand?

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  53. Jerome: “You might have heard this week of a courageous student at Southeastern Baptist Theological seminary who made available audio recordings of Danny Akin, president at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, calling Beth Moore ‘stupid’ and ‘dumb.’ Akin, not knowing he was being recorded, spoke candidly about Beth Moore…You can read about Akin’s comments [here], or watch JD discuss them [here]”

    Oh I apparently missed this one!

    Again, I note… a lot of these guys are just mean people at heart.

    As for the post, this is a ‘non-apology’ apology if ever I’ve seen one.

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  54. ishy: On the subject of the documentary, I remember watching the live videos of the rally, and someone panned over to Jared interviewing one of the attendees, I think Ashley Easter. He had this predatory, gleeful look on his face that I can’t forget.

    Ashley clearly wanted to talk about Abuse and I’m sure that’s why she was interviewed, and they just wanted to twist it all into their own ‘anti-social justice thing’. Which…of all the causes to have, why on EARTH would that be the thing that makes you passionate??? I just don’t understand it at all. If these guys would actually think about helping people for like three seconds instead of all this nonsense they might do some actual good.

    And I can’t make out this Fred Malone thing. Has he learned from his mistake with Chantry now that the court case has gone through? Is he trying to save face? Is he embarrassed by this? It’s interesting.

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  55. ishy: “However, Denhollander’s husband has used the victimization to become an outspoken (and insufferable) advocate for Social Justice, even on issues far removed from sexual abuse.

    How dare he *checks notes* talk about stuff! Obviously that makes him and his wife demonic and fair game *eyeroll*

    This is just a continuation of that weird article the other day about victims being bad because they think discussing the reality of life and what has happened to them is manipulative because other people also think these things are bad and maybe we should try to prevent them.

    (I agree they also do not understand social justice at all…I would say that of most ‘anti-social justice’ crusaders).

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  56. Mary27: Founders’ quote: “Our conversations led to an impasse regarding the nature of sin, unintentional sin, unwise acts and what faithfulness to Christ requires in the wake of each.”
    It appears they are saying that you don’t have to apologize for anything that was “unintentional”.

    The choices they made in this film were 100% intentional.

    I think the guy who said he didn’t review it carefully was either just negligent or didn’t review it at all. I don’t think it would have been appropriate to float this whole ‘these random people we don’t like are clearly demonic’ bit even if it weren’t a woman who had been abused and dares to talk about it. That just put it over the top. It’s like they think ‘oh we didn’t realize that was rachel’ is a defense. It isn’t.

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  57. Mary27: No need to feel or express any sorrow for the harm and pain you cause to others if it was “unintentional”??? I’m thinking you don’t need to be a Christian to know that reasoning stinks.

    It’s funny too, Mary, because ‘intent verses impact’ is something that is discussed in many social justice contexts. It doesn’t ultimately matter if you meant to, as you say, run over someone as far as the impact on them. It matters that you help them afterwards to fix the damage you did.

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  58. Wild Honey: I am legitimately confused. There’s a difference?

    I suspect it’s a case of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.” They had an alliance based on some issues that are no longer as relevant to either side. They probably never agreed on the things that are currently causing division among them, but these are only now becoming the decisive issues. The folks who will have to do soul-searching are those whose churches are on both sides of the issues: listed on church directories for both Founders and the various New-Calvinist sites such as TGC and 9Marks.

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  59. Ken F (aka Tweed): “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.”

    It’s a sad day when one group of “Christians” is at enmity with another group of Christians because they are the wrong theological flavor, and when you choose your friends because they are also adversaries of the same religious enemy. In this case, it all boils out to two distinct factions of SBC Calvinists who formed a weak alliance to do away to with SBC’s non-Calvinists through stealth and deception. Folks who have bad motives like that, who form an alliance for the wrong reason, eventually turn on each other.

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  60. Ken F (aka Tweed): The folks who will have to do soul-searching are those whose churches are on both sides of the issues: listed on church directories for both Founders and the various New-Calvinist sites such as TGC and 9Marks.

    I suppose if you believe yourself to be of the “elect”, you need to join all the groups of the predestined to cover the bases unless one or more of them turns out be unelected. It’s such a silly religious game. Hopefully, if there is any soul-searching going on it is to seek Christ.

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  61. ishy: The New Cals have no problem lying … the Founders have no problem lying …

    The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived. SBC’s Calvinist dilemma – both old and new flavors of it – has as its premise that they truly believe they alone are the keepers of truth and are out and about to restore/recover the gospel that the rest of us lost. They began their journey because they were deceived and continue down that road with blinders on, somehow justifying that lies and deceit are OK in the Body of Christ in order to fulfill their mission.

    Who is the Father of Lies?

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  62. Jerome: We are offering $50 gift cards to Chick-fil-A

    At the risk of stating the obvious, paying sources is not a practice of journalism. P&P tries to have it both ways by admitting that it is trolling and offering bounties, while also claiming to have a corner on some important truth.

    If Jesus had spoken and acted unethically, he would have attracted a rather different band of disciples and followers. Something more like a braying mob.

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  63. Wild Honey: Is this the same Tom Ascol who wrote “How to Smoke Out a Calvinistic Pastor… [Ask whether he’s a] member of the Founders Movement…”?

    https://www.theaquilareport.com/documents-related-to-how-to-smoke-out-a-calvinistic-pastor-in-your-church/

    I believe Ascol was referring to documents circulating at the time citing signs to look re: SBC Calvinistic ministers/churches. He wasn’t personally providing advice on “How to Smoke Out a Calvinistic Pastor.”

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  64. Max: I suppose if you believe yourself to be of the “elect”, you need to join all the groups of the predestined to cover the bases unless one or more of them turns out be unelected.It’s such a silly religious game.Hopefully, if there is any soul-searching going on it is to seek Christ.

    If only there were a Coalition of sorts associated with the Gospel…

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  65. Lea: It’s funny too, Mary, because ‘intent verses impact’ is something that is discussed in many social justice contexts. It doesn’t ultimately matter if you meant to, as you say, run over someone as far as the impact on them. It matters that you help them afterwards to fix the damage you did.

    It seems to me (looking in from the outside) that they meant to “unintentionally” run over the Denhollanders, for example, and have no desire to fix the damage they did. The most important commandment, according to Jesus, is to love your neighbor as yourself. Maybe they should stop their obsession of the subject of social justice and start being obsessed by LOVE for others.

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  66. Max: they truly believe they alone are the keepers of truth and are out and about to restore/recover the gospel that the rest of us lost. They began their journey because they were deceived and continue down that road with blinders on, somehow justifying that lies and deceit are OK in the Body of Christ in order to fulfill their mission.

    “They’re not gonna catch us. We’re on a mission from god” – Elwood Blues

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  67. Just to round off the cricket news, Australia completed a crushing win in the first Test to effectively end the Ashes as a contest before it even begins. The visitors will be overwhelmingly confident of setting up a second successive series whitewash, with England in disarray and little prospect of them coming back from here.

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  68. Ken F (aka Tweed): And also some kind of group that could help us identify marks of a healthy church…

    Consider the tulips of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

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  69. Mary27: Maybe they should stop their obsession of the subject of social justice and start being obsessed by LOVE for others.

    They would be running an entirely different ministry if they did that, and might shockingly find themselves on the same side as many ‘social justice’ churches…

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  70. Max,

    The thought occurred to me today that Proverbs 14:12 may be applicable to movements and institutions as much as it is to individuals. And if “the way that seems right, but that actually leads to a bad outcome” is founded on a flawed reading of Scripture, it may be very hard to recognize the error, since one may imagine that one had Divine warrant to hang on to it.

    This suggests that humility is always in order, and perhaps especially when recruiting the Scriptures into one’s purposes. That’s a thought that I apply first to myself, but I think it is more broadly valid.

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  71. Jerome: Pullet & Hen squawkers put out a fake news article Friday announcing that Al Mohler had left the The Gospel Coalition!

    Although Hall’s since pulled down the howler, it’s still indexed by Google. Just search “BREAKING Albert Mohler Quietly Leaves TGC”.

    The bogus self-congratulatory article in its entirety is now available cached by Google, makes for some amusing reading:

    https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:VYXm5mPP_LUJ:https://pulpitandpen.org/2019/08/02/breaking-albert-mohler-quietly-leaves-tgc-leadership-board/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

    “I couldn’t believe my eyes when I first saw it. But Mohler is now gone from TGC…When I wrote, ‘Gospel Coalition Writer/Speaker Comes Out in Full Support of Gay Marriage’, Mohler was listed on the leadership board of The Gospel Coalition…Now, he’s gone…I wish that it didn’t take articles like this one to get him to take a first step in the right direction. I mean, it only took – what – like a thousand articles and five years?”

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  72. * FYI: The gospel presented by ‘The Gospel Coalition’ and Founders.org —is not the true gospel of Jesus Christ, but Dorts’ TULIP. Dort’s TULIP is Calvin’s Augustinian Gnostic lie. Caution & Avoidance is thereby advised. ;~)§

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  73. Ken F (aka Tweed):The folks who will have to do soul-searching are those whose churches are on both sides of the issues: listed on church directories for both Founders and the various New-Calvinist sites such as TGC and 9Marks.

    Or they just ignore the antics in the ivory tower and keep on doing their own thing…

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  74. * FYI : When Man broke himself after he was created, God promised a remedy. That promised remedy was to be His Son, Jesus. He (Jesus) was later sent by God to the people God raised up (the Jews) to fulfill this long standing promise. This people in the course of things, rejected Jesus. God then took the remedy (His Son) , and offered it (Him) to the rest of the world (the gentiles) —through the words of the Apostle Paul as a starting point. —Those who take the remedy get the cure. However, unfortunately, Calvinists don’t believe they can by themselves take this remedy. In their belief system, all the tools of salvation must be therefore divinely and sovereignly appointed. This is their doctrine. This is a primary foundational truth of their religion. In their form of religion absolutely no one is sure of their ‘election’, i.e. —the assurity of their salvation this side of heaven, is therefore simply non-existent. This brings little to no comfort. ;~)§

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  75. Max: The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived. SBC’s Calvinist dilemma – both old and new flavors of it – has as its premise that they truly believe they alone are the keepers of truth and are out and about to restore/recover the gospel that the rest of us lost. They began their journey because they were deceived and continue down that road with blinders on, somehow justifying that lies and deceit are OK in the Body of Christ in order to fulfill their mission.

    Who is the Father of Lies?

    And what is the age old lie: “You can be like God, knowing every thing.”

    The Calvinists have swallowed the same old lie that snookered our first parents – they think they know it all. No looking through a glass darkly for them, nosirree, they understand God perfectly, have the true and perfect knowledge of scripture, the perfect doctrine, and so on.

    It is their certainty that is the telling point. Why, those evil liberals, progressives, social justice warriors – and whatever other names they have and will call those who see things a tad differently from them – could not possibly have a valid point here and there, now could they? Sure, they’ve been snookered into their own issues, thanks to the great deceiver, but he wouldn’t be messing with them if they weren’t on to something.

    Compared to the humility of Jesus, who actually knew all things, the arrogance and certainty of Calvinists is stunning. When I shook the dust off my feet, the huge burden of certainty fell forever off my back, and freed me to earnestly seek greater understanding. I no longer fear those who think differently from me, but truly want to get inside their heads and understand why they believe what they do. It truly is a much better place to be, not knowing everything.

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  76. Tom Ascol is a ridiculously stupid, evil, insanely childish man. How can someone be that old and that dumb? He makes himself, his little group of rape victim haters, and the Southern Baptist Convention look totally evil.

    If he wants to make the Southern Baptist Convention look worse he is doing a fine job of it.

    It is obvious these men despise Rachael Denhollander. How dare she make a pervert pay for sexually abusing over 300 girls.

    I do believe the Founder sickos hate two groups of people. Women and victims of sexual abuse.

    If Tom Ascol was a moral intelligent man, which it is abundantly clear he is not, he would be ashamed of his self. He seems to have the same narcissistic shamelessness of Kim Kardashian and her attention junkie little sisters. And no better morals.

    Grown MEN do not act like this. Every day is resentful-ninth-grade in the Southern Baptist Convention.

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  77. ‘Social Justice’ is now considered a Trojan horse in the circles of both The Gospel Coalition, and the Founder.org opening the Calvinistic run on the SBC vonerble to women and lettered individuals to SBC pulpits. Forget abuse victims, that to them, is just a ploy to get in the ‘gates’.

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  78. Guest: It is obvious these men despise Rachael Denhollander.

    The vitriol directed at her (and her husband randomly, as they seem to justify their anger at her for what he says online?) gives the game away. That’s why people came down on them.

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  79. Lea: Guest: It is obvious these men despise Rachael Denhollander.

    The vitriol directed at her (and her husband randomly, as they seem to justify their anger at her for what he says online?) gives the game away. That’s why people came down on them.

    “We regret the pain and confusion we caused by this unwise alignment of image and idea.” (Tom Ascol)

    It’s becoming increasingly clear by most observers that the Founders Ministries, themselves, are an unwise alignment of image and idea!

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  80. I had a thought yesterday that might explain everyone quitting the Founders Board. I wondered if it was not so much because of an attack of conscience, but because they were worried there might be a lawsuit.

    We know several people refused to be in the documentary who were in the trailer anyway, including Mohler. Several people, such as Rachel Denhollander, were portrayed as evil. Potential lawsuit. Not that the lawsuit would be successful, but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be a possibility.

    Also, the videos of Weber and Denhollander, in particular, were made fuzzy. It makes me wonder if they used someone else’s footage to cut those scenes. If it is footage used without permission, it’s probably not a lawsuit issue, but could be a DCMA violation, which means it could never be shown without being edited. Would be a good question to investigate, because as we know, Christian celebrities seem to have a big problem with copyright issues.

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  81. ishy: It makes me wonder if they used someone else’s footage to cut those scenes.

    Specifically, the footage of Rachel Denhollander looks like it came from the new coverage of Nassar’s trial. I seem to remember that being shown on TV.

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  82. ishy: evil

    Could it be that the Founders are under a delusion that anyone and everyone who challenges them on this are part of a demonic attack against their effort to expose evil in SBC ranks? They obviously believe that they are taking the high road, the only keepers of truth, who alone proclaim the one true gospel … then all who questions them are part of the enemy’s plot to stop their work. Ascol is digging in while board members bail out and his buds (Mohler, others) distance themselves. He is turning away rebuke and correction from various corners of the Body of Christ. Stubbornness + arrogance = sickness.

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  83. Ascol and Mohler were interviewed for a puff piece published yesterday by conservative website The Federalist:

    “Despite Pastor Ascol’s efforts and background, a social media mob was able to erase half of the board of directors of his respected SBC ministry arm.”

    https://thefederalist.com/2019/08/05/trailer-new-documentary-revives-southern-baptist-brawl-social-justice-theology/

    “from the interviews with both men they appear to remain allies”

    “asked what alarmed him about the promo, Mohler stated, ‘the cinematography.’ Mohler said the trailer seemed to cast certain leaders in the SBC in a poor light and could have been more adequately edited. Ascol publicly agreed the editing could have been improved…At the end of the day, according to both Mohler and Ascol, the message from one friend to another is, ‘Get a better editor for the next trailer’.”

    “some of the interviewees in the documentary accused Founders of…using footage without permission. Ascol categorically denies these charges, calling them ‘patently false’.”

    “Mohler also unequivocally denied as a possibility that Ascol deceived his interviewees for the documentary”

    “Ascol seems determined…[that] Founders should ‘stay the course.’ Ascol is convinced that he ‘hit upon a nerve’ in the SBC that should be further explored”

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  84. Jerome: Ascol and Mohler were interviewed for a puff piece published yesterday by conservative website The Federalist:

    https://thefederalist.com/2019/08/05/trailer-new-documentary-revives-southern-baptist-brawl-social-justice-theology/

    “from the interviews with both men they appear to remain allies”
    They are “allies” because of their bond to Calvinize the SBC. They might not agree with each other’s methodology to accomplish that mission, but it is the glue that holds them together.

    Jerome: “Mohler also unequivocally denied as a possibility that Ascol deceived his interviewees for the documentary”

    Did Jared Longshore identify himself and his affiliation when he interrogated Ashely Easter and Kyle Howard at the For Such a Time As This Rally?

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  85. Jerome: “Mohler also unequivocally denied as a possibility that Ascol deceived his interviewees for the documentary”

    Well, we know this isn’t true, as those people have said otherwise, as did witnesses of the interviews. But, I’m sure Mohler doesn’t think those people count, because they aren’t in the “club”.

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  86. Jerome: “Despite Pastor Ascol’s efforts and background, a social media mob was able to erase half of the board of directors of his respected SBC ministry arm.”

    The federalist has been publishing trash for years, but I’m fascinated that they took this on.

    A ‘social media mob’ didn’t run off half the directors, their bad behavior in editing this video to make a well known abuse victim and advocate look like the devil made those guys look bad. Pft.

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  87. ishy: Well, we know this isn’t true, as those people have said otherwise, as did witnesses of the interviews. But, I’m sure Mohler doesn’t think those people count, because they aren’t in the “club”.

    Also, Mohler wasn’t there. He’s just taking some dudes word for it, then?

    Some people’s word counts more than others. They believe Ascol even though this video was edited with clear intent to make people look bad, rather than some women they hate. This is why they have such a problem in churches in general, they believe the wrong people.

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  88. Lea: They believe Ascol even though this video was edited with clear intent to make people look bad, rather than some women they hate.

    I actually don’t know if they really believe Ascol, or they are just saying they do to avoid more drama. Lying wouldn’t be a first for this crowd…

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  89. Sopwith

    One of your comments not allowed. The purpose of this blog is to discuss abuse in the church. If you want a blog that only discusses one’s testimony, you will find a plethora of blogs out there to match your exacting standards. I’m putting you on slow moderation for awhile. You are starting to irritate me, once again.

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  90. Lea: This is why they have such a problem in churches in general, they believe the wrong people.

    Exactly. SBC has had a long history of elevating the wrong people to leadership status and promoting the wrong people to be at the front of their assorted movements over the years. For example, who in the heck gave Tom Ascol and Al Mohler the mic?!! There are many good folks in SBC ranks who serve the Lord faithfully, who preach and teach Truth, who minister to people in need … but they are overlooked because they are not in the club of elites. Yep, the wrong people are running things within SBC.

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  91. ishy,

    Mohler has no idea what happened. He has been a long time supporter of the Founders just like he was BFFs with CJ Mahaney. Mohler has a hard time letting go of this BFFs and the longer he lingers with him, the less he looks like aa leader. He hangs with creepy people but creepy people who espouse his. theology and such up to him.

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  92. dee: He has been a long time supporter of the Founders …

    In many ways, Al Mohler is a product of the Founders Ministries. He was essentially mentored by them as a young man and has been a speaker at their conferences over the years. There’s an old hymn sung in traditional SBC churches “Blest Be The Tie That Binds” which talks about the Christian love which unites the Body of Christ. The tie that binds Mohler and Ascol is the common cause to Calvinize the SBC … it will be tough to break.

    Mohler supported Mahaney until that potato became too hot to handle. When this allegiance started to be questioned – when the Houston Chronicle articles on abuse were published – Mohler distanced himself from Mahaney. He will do the same thing with Ascol when the heat gets turned up. He has done an amazing job protecting his own skin.

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  93. Jerome: “Ascol seems determined … [that] Founders should ‘stay the course.’ Ascol is convinced that he ‘hit upon a nerve’ in the SBC that should be further explored” (The Federalist)

    Boy, he has that right!! Southern Baptists, are you listening yet?!

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  94. dee: Mohler has no idea what happened. He has been a long time supporter of the Founders just like he was BFFs with CJ Mahaney.

    They’re going after him in the documentary, though. So Mohler’s reactions are a little surprising considering he is one of their targets.

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  95. Max: He has done an amazing job protecting his own skin …

    … but perhaps it’s getting tougher and tougher for Al Mohler to tread water. He has been hanging with the wrong people too long – some real slimy ones actually – and they are drawing attention to him. He has been successful wiggling out of problems in the past, but sooner or later he will run out of wiggle room.

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  96. Max: He has been hanging with the wrong people too long – some real slimy ones actually – and they are drawing attention to him.

    That’s very true. I’m certainly not surprised the Founders are going after him, since they imagined themselves the puppetmasters of the SBC way before Mohler took that place. Mohler gaining enemies isn’t really a shocker.

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  97. Mary27: No need to feel or express any sorrow for the harm and pain you cause to others if it was “unintentional”??? I’m thinking you don’t need to be a Christian to know that reasoning stinks.

    I suspect Matthew 5:23-24 isn’t in some of their Bibles.

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  98. Lea: A ‘social media mob’ didn’t run off half the directors, their bad behavior in editing this video to make a well known abuse victim and advocate look like the devil made those guys look bad. Pft.

    These guys are the biggest babies. They always blame others instead of taking responsibility for their own actions. I have no respect for them at all.

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  99. Jerome: “Despite Pastor Ascol’s efforts and background, a social media mob was able to erase half of the board of directors of his respected SBC ministry arm.”

    The irony of Founders coming across as victims in this article is very rich.

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  100. I was watching Daniel Tiger with my preschooler, and this seems appropriate to many of the situations encountered on TWW: “Saying I’m sorry is the first step, then how can I help.” Perhaps the SBC needs a little less Calvin and a little more Mr Rogers.

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  101. FW Rez: The irony of Founders coming across as victims in this article is very rich.

    Isn’t one of the surest signs of a sociopath the ability to turn the tables, shift the blame, play the Poor poor Inncoent Victim, and get everyone except their victim to believe it?

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  102. Bridget: These guys are the biggest babies. They always blame others instead of taking responsibility for their own actions.

    But see, Bridget, this is why men are supposed to be in charge of everything! Because *checks notes* um…

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  103. Lea: Pst, Wild Honey. Mr. Rogers was a presbyterian

    But he wasn’t out and about trying to Calvinize the world, like the Mohlerites and Ascolites. Mr. Rogers had a different spirit, a gentle loving man … I figure God “elected” him along the way.

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  104. Lea: He had the spirit of many of my reformed brethren

    As I’ve noted before, I don’t have a problem with “classical” Calvinists … I worshiped alongside several during my SBC days and found them to be civil in their discourse and respectful of other expressions of faith. New Calvinists, for the most part, are totally different beasts … they are arrogant, aggressive, and militant (at least the ones in my neck of the woods). While some of SBC’s “Old” Calvinists are of that sort (e.g., Ascol), for the most part they are good folks who aren’t intent on pushing their belief and practice on others. I may not agree with the tenets of reformed theology, but are OK with adherents to that faith as long as they don’t promote it as the only genuine expression of Christianity … but I sure don’t like the new reformers wreaking havoc in the American church.

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  105. Lea: Also, Mohler wasn’t there. He’s just taking some dudes word for it, then?

    I addressed this in the thread on Sankey and CCC, but we need to put an end to revered leaders being allowed to get away with supporting liars, abusers and predators by claiming they were deceived.

    We all get that deceivers lie, right? These guys need to put on their big boy pants and do the proper due diligence, on every issue, to ensure to the best of their ability what the truth of any situation is. They cannot simply rely upon the convenient word of their friends. We must show them that we will hold them accountable for ‘believing’ what a little bit of diligence could have proven to be false. They sound just like Adam in the garden, always trying to pass the buck to somebody who deceived them.

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  106. TS00: They sound just like Adam in the garden, always trying to pass the buck to somebody who deceived them.

    I really don’t think Mohler was deceived on this. I think he knowingly lied about it for bonus points with Ascol.

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  107. ishy: I think the main difference is that they want to be different. The New Cals have no problem lying about who they accept in their camp, and the Founders have no problem lying about what the New Cals believe, so I can’t see much difference.

    It just goes to show that when people turn their focus on doggedly seeking out the one perfect way to do and think everything perfectly, it takes them to some very strange places. I think we need a Roger Williams for our age to return some sanity and reason to things.

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  108. TS00: When I shook the dust off my feet, the huge burden of certainty fell forever off my back, and freed me to earnestly seek greater understanding. I no longer fear those who think differently from me, but truly want to get inside their heads and understand why they believe what they do. It truly is a much better place to be, not knowing everything.

    It is a great burden lifted, isn’t it?

    These guys and their perfectionism bring to mind Prov 26:12, “Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.” You have to get where you realize you don’t -and can’t- know everything before you can begin to learn.

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  109. Today, I offered to buy Joel Ascol, son of Tom, a copy of “The Half Has Never Been Told: Slavery and the Making of American Capitalism” by Cornell University professor Edward Baptist. The Ascols seem very intent on making capitalism part of their “gospel.” (I think capitalism is a neutral oart of economics and not part of the Gospel.) I think they should read about American slavery, which is capitalism on steroids. Seriously, though, the book is good. I highly recommend it. But Baptist takes no prisoners. There are no farms or plantations, just slave labor camps.

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  110. Max: Could it be that the Founders are under a delusion that anyone and everyone who challenges them on this are part of a demonic attack against their effort to expose evil in SBC ranks?

    What surprised me most about the trailer was the level of fear expressed by the Founders speakers. They are either truly expressing their fear or they are faking it for theatrics – I don’t know which is worse. A long time ago a somewhat well know Christian said something like, “always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you…” Isn’t it interesting that the assumption behind this statement is that hope is so normative among Christians that we should be ready to answer questions about it. No one will ask Founders about their hope because they show none.

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  111. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    Fear of punishment has been stock in trade for many varieties of religion for a long time. If one has deeply internalized this, there is then the possibility of a meta-fear, which is that the means of avoiding the punishment might be lost.

    It’s possible that they are genuinely afraid, but also that they recognize that stoking others’ fears is an effective way of getting their attention.

    ——–

    It seems inconsistent with the kind of confidence that we expect them to have in God’s sovereign governance of the world. This might tempt one to suspect that a “manipulation of others through fear” agenda is at work.

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  112. Max: Could it be that the Founders are under a delusion that anyone and everyone who challenges them on this are part of a demonic attack against their effort to expose evil in SBC ranks?

    That comes with the territory of being God’s Speshul RIGHTEOUS Pets.

    Captain Mal was wrong.
    There IS a worse monster than “a man who feels he’s Right with God”.
    A man who KNOWS He’s Right With God and has God 110% on his side.

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  113. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: The Ascols seem very intent on making capitalism part of their “gospel.”

    Can you point to any source of Ascol’s which extols the virtues of Capitalism?

    And yeah, I agree, Capitalism is amoral, and like fire, it can be used for good or evil.

    Thanks for the heads up, Baptist’s book is on my reading list.

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  114. ishy: Oh, and gotta love this quote from Pulpit and Pen about why the Denhollander’s should be targeted in the documentary:

    Did anybody pick up on the pissed-off vibes emanating from Jacob Denhollander’s face?

    I don’t know of any self-respecting man, Christian or non, who’ll take kindly to some dudes who diss his wife.

    At first I thought:
    Cut em’ some slack Muff, they’re dullards and simpletons…made so by a religion that has lost all touch with human reality.

    Then I thought again:
    Nope, they’re worse, they’re like the fools with no discretion spoken of in the Book of Proverbs.

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  115. Muff Potter: Can you point to any source of Ascol’s which extols the virtues of Capitalism?

    And yeah, I agree, Capitalism is amoral, and like fire, it can be used for good or evil.

    Thanks for the heads up, Baptist’s book is on my reading list.

    There are a couple of paeans to capitalism and Calvinism on Founders.org, like this one: https://founders.org/2013/10/15/love-him-or-hate-him-calvin-is-a-towering-figure-on-the-landscape-of-american-christianity/

    There is nothing specifically linking Tom Ascol to a defense of capitalism. (There are a couple of articles by Rod Martin on *his* website strenuously defending capitalism, however.) However, I would say that people who make a big deal about “Critical Race Theory” and “intersectionality” also tend to really be fans of the current system of things, and that includes economics.

    Seriously, though, Ascol and his family really need to read Baptist’s book, or there’s a book I’ve not read yet, but is something I want to read, and it’s called “They Were Her Property: White Women as Slave Owners in the American South”, by Stephanie E. Jones-Rogers. From what reviews I’ve read, apparently families did what they could, when bequeathing slaves to daughters, to keep them out of the hands of husbands or other male members of the family. And women slaveowners were just as willing as their fathers, brothers and husbands to go after their animate property if they ran away, or if they weren’t paid by buyers, etc. It’s probably going to be another depressing read. I’ll have to alternate between that and some good science fiction.

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  116. Muff Potter: Did anybody pick up on the pissed-off vibes emanating from Jacob Denhollander’s face?

    I don’t know of any self-respecting man, Christian or non, who’ll take kindly to some dudes who diss his wife.

    He had some pretty strong things to say on Twitter, too. I don’t blame him. Their argument is essentially that Ascol should go after Rachael because Jacob has his own opinions. He’s not even close to a “social justice warrior”, either. He just doesn’t “submit enough” to what Ascol views as the powers that be, in other words, himself.

    That’s what most of this comes down to–a battle of who’s in control of the cult. And Ascol will be the loser whether he likes it or not, because he doesn’t have the subtlety or the brains to maintain the cult.

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  117. Muff:

    Those pulpit and pen people are the worst. Imagine being mad that an abuse victim garnered sympathy, because it might draw attention what, away from them???

    “Denhollander received much sympathy, as is to be expected in a culture that is immersed in victimology

    I suppose in a regular proper culture not ‘immersed in victimology’ she would have received NO sympathy and that would have been better to them. Disgusting people.

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  118. Max: Could it be that the Founders are under a delusion that anyone and everyone who challenges them on this are part of a demonic attack against their effort to expose evil in SBC ranks?

    Reminds me of a proof text I hears a LOT during the Age of Hal Lindsay:
    2 Thess 2:11
    Ever notice it’s always applied to the OTHER guy?

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  119. ishy: That’s what most of this comes down to–a battle of who’s in control of the cult. And Ascol will be the loser whether he likes it or not, because he doesn’t have the subtlety or the brains to maintain the cult.

    Move over, Hubbard. Here comes Miscavage!

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  120. Ken F (aka Tweed): What surprised me most about the trailer was the level of fear expressed by the Founders speakers. They are either truly expressing their fear or they are faking it for theatrics –

    Being as they were willing to trick people into being interviewed and to misrepresent people on the trailer and to avoid the truth when called out, in other words, being as they are dishonest people, I am leaning towards ‘faking it for theatrics’. People who are truly afraid know that the Bible condemns *all* lying and would not be willing to lie to achieve a goal.

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  121. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Today, I offered to buy Joel Ascol, son of Tom, a copy of “The Half Has Never Been Told: Slavery and the Making of American Capitalism” by Cornell University professor Edward Baptist. The Ascols seem very intent on making capitalism part of their “gospel.”

    This was a big part of some Christian homeschool curriculum back in the day.

    I hope he takes you up on your offer.

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  122. Founders reposted this article by Tom Ascol today: https://founders.org/2015/03/13/have-we-lost-the-gospel-2/. It’s pretty ironic for someone who holds to the Doctrines of Grace to write:
    “The glory of God in the salvation of sinners is at stake. So is the eternal destiny of many who may think that they are right with God but who are merely religious (Matthew 7:21–23).”

    Does he believe in election or not? If he believes that in eternity past god predestined some people for salvation, then absolutely nothing is at stake. It’s all been determined by an unchangeable divine decree. And if god’s glory is at stake it means mere humans can detract from it. What kind of a god is that?

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  123. Ken F (aka Tweed),
    It is impossible to consistenly hold to scripture, logic and Calvinism, thus Calvinists are compelled to contradict their theology constantly. No one could actually live with the fatalism Calvinism demands, so they give it lip service, then proceed to live as if it was not so.

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  124. TS00: It is impossible to consistenly hold to scripture, logic and Calvinism

    You obviously do not understand Calvinism, which puts you in the same category as 100% of the rest of humanity.

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  125. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: The Ascols seem very intent on making capitalism part of their “gospel.”

    It’s obviously related to the Prosperity Gospel.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0kcet4aPpQ

    I think they should read about American slavery, which is capitalism on steroids.

    Oh, they do. And I know just which book.
    Remember that Jerk with his Kirk in Moscow, Idaho?
    Southern Slavery as It Really Was?

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