Updated:John MacArthur Speaks to Seminary Students, Allegedly Pays His Son-in-Law Very Well and Claims There is No Racism in *Authentic* Evangelical Churches

“Racism does not have a good track record. It’s been tried out for a long time and you’d think by now we’d want to put an end to it instead of putting it under new management.”  Thomas Sowell

John MacArthur speaking to the Master’s Seminary student regarding the university’s probation.

I know that a few people have been concerned that I didn’t post the audio along with the comments regarding John MacArthur’s address to the Master’s Seminary students regarding the probation of the university.

I recently received this MP3 and had difficulty putting it online. So today, GBTC helped me to split the file in to two to meet the size requirements for media on the blog. You will hear an overlap with Part 2 since we didn’t want anyone to think we deleted any of the recording.

As is usual for pastors and others who are publicly confronted with awkward issues, MacArthur blames the internet and bloggers. Listen carefully as he claims that had this *probation* happened in the days before the internet, this *issue* would have passed quietly by with little attention. I wonder if that is why God allowed us to create the internet. MacArthur should consider that fact since he believes that God is sovereign over everything. Maybe some issues should have been discussed transparently in the past…

 

John MacArthur TMS Chapel 08.21.18 EC Part 1

 

John MacArthur TMS Chapel 08.21.18 EC Part 2

 

Could anyone confirm this graphic that has been updated and making the rounds regarding payments to MacArthur’s son-in-law for service rendered?

So far, no one has contacted me from John MacArthur’s businesses, church, schools or associated para-church organizations to inform me that the previously posted graphic was in error. This week, it appears that someone has discovered further information based on publicly available 990s. Could someone let me know if this graphic is in error so I can alert our followers? The amount of money being paid seems a tad excessive.

Update 9/1/18: The people who are doing research into financials sent me this updated graphic. I have replaced the other one. They are finding new information. They have also sent me other financial which allegedly document loans for houses given to some well known BFFs andfamily which were then forgiven. I am attempting to confirm the validity of these allegations and will post them when I feel absolutely comfortable. 

MacArthur claims that he doesn’t know any authentic evangelical church where racism is a problem.

The Christian Post presented John MacArthur Says He Doesn’t Know Any Authentic Evangelical Church Where Racism Is a Problem  This one confused me. I wonder if MacArthur gets out much. We know he doesn’t like social media (grin) so perhaps he has not read a plethora of articles that might disagree with him. TWW followed a lengthy debate between Thabiti Anyabwile and Doug Wilson. Wilson is a white and lives in Idaho. Thabiti is an African American pastor. Here is one article we wrote regarding Doug Wilson’s views on slavery. Doug Wilson: Fashionable Calvinista Has Disturbing Views on Slavery.

John MacArthur, who is a cloistered, rich, white male may be overlooking something. Has he asked African American pastors, theologians or, even better, African American church attendees whether they have seen or experienced any racism?

While admitting that racism is a “stain on American history” with lingering vestiges, MacArthur argues that civil rights legislation now guards equal rights for all Americans.

He says while he can understand why those in secular culture will seek to fight racism under the banner of social justice, he sees no reason for evangelicals to take up that cause because he has never seen racism as a problem in any authentic evangelical church.

“I understand when fallen, worldly people filled with resentment lash out at others that way. I don’t understand why Bible-believing Christians would take up that cause. I thought the evangelical church was living out true unity in Christ without regard for race,” MacArthur said.

MacArthur’s logic is confounding to me. Let me give you another example of this. I bet MacArthur would say that the church was living out unity on issues such as child sex abuse, the rape of university students,and domestic violence since all of that is unbiblical as well. Except, because we are sinners, sex abuse, rape of college students and violence against women is still present. In the same vein, sinners in the church can, and do, hold onto racial bigotry because they are sinners.

Recently the New York Times presented A Quiet Exodus: Why Black Worshipers Are Leaving White Evangelical Churches which appears to present an opposing view.

It starts with the views of an African American woman.

This time of the week two years earlier, there would have been no question. Ms. Pruitt, 46, would have been getting ready for her regular Saturday afternoon worship service, at a former grocery store overhauled into a state-of-the-art, 760-seat sanctuary. In the darkened hall, where it would have been hard to tell she was one of the few black people in the room, she would have listened to the soaring anthems of the praise bands. She would have watched, on three giant screens, a sermon that over the course of a weekend would reach one of the largest congregations in the country.

But Ms. Pruitt has not been to that church since the fall of 2016. That was when she concluded that it was not, ultimately, meant for people like her. She has not been to any church regularly since.

…But for many black churchgoers, the current breach feels particularly painful. Lecrae, a prominent black Christian hip-hop artist, has spoken openly of his “divorce” with white evangelicalism, Christian counselors have talked frankly of the psychological toll of trying to hang on in multiracial churches and others have declared it time to consider theserious downsides of worship integration.

In closing,

I feel for the students at The Masters University and Seminary. The organization is in a time of turmoil. However, students are often involved in university politics. I urge them to seek the truth and speak the truth to those in power. Keep writing, keep recording and be advocates for transparency. Remember that Jesus often challenged the status quo.


Comments

Updated:John MacArthur Speaks to Seminary Students, Allegedly Pays His Son-in-Law Very Well and Claims There is No Racism in *Authentic* Evangelical Churches — 224 Comments

  1. Yea but I was waiting for you to correct your post. It was Al Gore who invented the internets.

    “I wonder if that is why God allowed us to create the internet.”

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  2. some girl says she was raped 12 years ago and she said it was by a couple of seminary students . . . she was attending bible study here at grace church and the students she accused were never students at seminary or the university . . .we didn’t know who . . . they weren’t even identified with Grace Church. That was all in the police report. She was taken by the pastoral staff here to the police and they completely discounted the entire story. Somebody puts that on a website somewhere, and it shows up in a report as if we didn’t address that.

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  3. I disagree with Macarthur, but will say I do think some perception of racism, especially when voiced by those not of the minority in question, are more imagined than real. Bear with me a moment before you shut me down: we just moved from our again living where Anglos are the definite and tiny minority. We usually worshipped in an Anglo church. We were quite welcome at the churches populated mostly by the majority. But we didn’t feel at home. Different music, different customs, etc made us feel “other” no matter how hard the majority folks tried (and they graciously tried hard to make us welcome.)

    I don’t believe for a moment that was the sin of racism. Jesus evidently likes variety–or all flowers would be roses. I think it is just dandy to have church with a salsa beat even if I cannot catch on to it. Or sung in Navajo even though I don’t know the words. I love black worship but have felt a poor fit, and understand when my “frozen chosen” northern plains Lutheran friends struggle with the idea of upraised hands or an amen corner.

    Provided no one is treated unkindly I am willing to leave churches worshipping in diverse manners and let every worshipper find the one that fits them best.

    And that is respectful, not racist.

    Even if you don’t like my bluegrass gospel:)

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  4. drstevej:
    Yea but I was waiting for you to correct your post. It was Al Gore who invented the internets.
    “I wonder if that is why God allowed us to create the internet.”

    You didn’t know I created the internet?

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  5. No authentic evangelical church has any racism in it. There may be fake evangelical churches where there’s racism, but they’re not true evangelicals. Like certain obnoxious and dishonest people I’ve met in the past weren’t “true Jehovah’s witnesses” and the person who insulted me over Billy Graham in Cambridge long ago was “not an atheist [but] a very insecure person”.

    This is beneath drivel.

    There are scumbags of every flavour representing wholeheartedly embracing every religion or belief system, atheism and agnosticism included. I know of no evidence of a single moral failing, or even ceremonial “sin”, that can be banished by being “evangelical”.

    Rejecting religion has given me a chance of living freely and honestly for the first time in my adult life (and, arguably, my entire life, since I was distracted by the god delusion from a very young age). I am extremely glad about that, and profoundly thankful (albeit to nothing in particular) that I have lived long enough and seen clearly enough to have the chance to try again. But this step does not, in itself, make me a better person; no ideology (with or without a sacred text) can do that. I could be a true agnostic, and still an a**e. Same goes for evangelicals.

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  6. Jamie,

    Well, that is one version of the events….I believe Jane and there is a good reason for doing so. Why in the world would she go forward with this story and subject herself to disbelievers like yourself? I believe she is telling the truth precisely because her story wasn’t a nice clean story. She knew it would be questioned but instead of making it sound perfect, she told the difficult truth. I have been doing this for 9 1/2 years and I believe her. Do you know how many stories we don’t tell?

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  7. NIck Bulbeck: No authentic evangelical church has any racism in it.

    Etc.

    In the study of logic, there is a name for an argument that absolves a group from responsibility for nasty acts committed by certain members of that group, because those members were not true _____.

    Knowing of your adopted place of residence, I’m sure you know the name of this logical fallacy.

    (Yes, it’s called “The No True Scotsman” argument.)

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  8. Such a ridiculous, over-the-top statement. Just because you don’t see something, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I’ve never knowingly seen a child sex slave. That doesn’t mean that sex slavery doesn’t exist.

    Where I get confused in this conversation is the definition of “social justice.” It seems like people use this term with wildly different definitions. I see a very radical version of this around me on campus, although I don’t think it is as widespread as some media would have you believe. Others use the term to just mean helping poor people. I read an article that claimed the term originated in the Catholic Church in the 1840s. The church was struggling to help people stay connected in a post agrarian world. The term was coined to mean the spheres of society outside the civil government where people relate to and help each other.

    I wish we had some more precise terminology for what we mean by “social justice.”

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  9. Ricco,

    With all that I said above, I think it is willfully blind to say “none of the bad things happen in church.” As mentioned above, classic no true Scotsman. Just like I hear people say “talking about Christian Reconstructionism or Dominionism is just liberal propaganda.” Then some liberals will reply “all evangelicals are Dominionists,” and then our conversation gets stupid. There are a range of people and experiences within any organization/society, and we have to resist the urge to simplify all of those experiences down into one neat narrative or set of principles. This is really hard for us to do as humans. Claiming “my church does it right” or “ other churches interpret the Bible but we just READ the Bible” is super dangerous and will almost always end very badly

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  10. Here’s my critical analysis of this post.

    Anyone can access GTY’s financial documents. It does seem over the top for Welch to make so much money; I’m glad WASC became aware of that. The Bible does say a lot about being above reproach and this makes it hard to do so. How much does it really cost to produce church video recordings and marketing videos for a small school? It honestly can’t be that much for him to receive that kind of money.

    Why does he need to be paid that much?
    How was Welch paid?
    Is there a barrier between church giving and the money given to Grace to You?

    Is anyone aware that you can buy a flash drive from GTY for $250 or $400? it contains his sermons on it (but not *all* of them, only the ones that are currently available when the drive is requested) but you can only return it for a refund if the device is defective…who in their right mind would by a $400 flash drive? That just does not sound like a good deal. You can listen to the sermons for free on the (super slick) website or (flashy) app.

    https://www.gty.org/store/flash-drives/42USBH/mp3-sermons-on-flash-drive

    How much of the money these organizations receive is actually going to preaching the gospel worldwide? (Whatever methods are included in doing so).

    Second, the recordings are pretty wild. Even in context what is said is damning. When someone says that it is not “your responsibility to know” that is a huge red flag. It is every student and parent’s responsibility to know because they pay the tuition! It’s scary that he uses the “before the Internet” example because it would appear that he is interested in not exposing these issues.

    Furthermore, if non-students attack a student then an investigation is certainly warranted. That’s a major security issue. The scariest thing is that he seemed to casually dismiss the concerns in the report. He then accuses WASC of attacking him. The team was made up of independent people from various schools, and I think they would approach an audit professionally. What do they have to gain by “attacking” a little-known school?

    This school might have had its accreditation for a while, but they’ve been given fair warning to fix their problems over the years.

    I don’t think this will end well for them.

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  11. I posted this a few times but since this is somewhat about Mr. Macarthur’s somewhat over the top statement concerning “racism” in “authentic” (TM) evangelical churches I find this rather hard to believe. I may be wrong about this and admit this right up front. I do believe JM was in the south ministering to the African American community and that he was arrested and suffered other insults for his ministry. But when he states, in his biography and several times in presentations the link posted below that he was walking around the crime scene a few hours after the MLK assassination and was also able to go to where James Earl Ray fired the fatal shot. I find that hard to believe given this: continued below link

    https://youtu.be/gm3U39lnPO0?t=1m34s

    “Testimony from a 1999 civil court trial indicates that the King assassination crime scenes were barricaded by police within 2 minutes after King was shot. Click here to read the trial transcript. Also, since it’s been proven in that court of law that no shots were fired from the rooming house bathroom across the street from the Lorraine Motel, how did John Macarthur know to enter this bathroom just after the assassination and before knowledge of this bathroom “crime scene” was even made public?

    How did John Macarthur, John Perkins, and Charles Evers obtain access to the MLK crime scenes if they were barricaded by police within minutes?”

    http://thewatchmanwakes.org/john-macarthur-saw-the-blood-of-martin-luther-king/

    Please ignore the freemason conspiracy stuff my main point is that the crime scene was sealed a few minutes after the assassination and if it was not major issues are left unanswered about the murder of MLK Jr. There is also quite a bit here. Again the above link has some very “interesting” conspiracy stuff I am sorry but I could not find a corroborating website other than thekingcenter transcripts.

    http://www.thekingcenter.org/news/trial/Volume1.html

    I just found this rather interesting. The entire youtube answer listed above is also quite telling. Again this is just my opinion and I coul

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  12. “MacArthur claims that he doesn’t know any authentic evangelical church where racism is a problem.”

    Heck, my problem is that I don’t know any ‘authentic’ evangelical church!

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  13. Max: Heck, my problem is that I don’t know any ‘authentic’ evangelical church!

    See, technically, he was correct. (That’s how Calvinists convince themselves they are honest.)

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  14. The Salt Lake Tribune won a Pulitzer Prize last year (2017) for reporting about how the Brigham Young University “honor code” office treated women who reported sexual assaults. Because of the very real possibility that a student would be thrown out of school if she reported a sexual assaults, there were years when *no* sexual assaults were reported at BYU. The Trib’s reporting forced a change in how BYU handled sexual assaults.

    http://www.pulitzer.org/winners/salt-lake-tribune-staff

    The application to the current subject is obvious.

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  15. brian,

    Thank you for your informative post. You bring up some interesting material here.

    I actually did check out the Masonic connections. Are you sure? This is from The Guardian, the major news organization: “for Evers, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) activist who was assassinated in 1963, was a 32nd-degree freemason in Ancient & Accepted Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction.”

    Here is the link to The Guardian article: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/jul/02/secret-jazz-freemason-history-duke-ellington-sun-ra

    Here is also his Freemason lodge Facebook page validating his association:

    https://www.facebook.com/DouglasLodge33Pha/posts/medgar-wiley-eversa-civil-right-activist-medgar-evers-was-born-july-2-1925-in-de/456015194494367/

    He went to MacArthur’s dad’s church. MacArthur Sr. was said to have counseled Roy Rogers who is said to have been a mason. MacArthur’s own biography and an interview mention his family ties to a Thomas Fullerton who was a mason in Canada…

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  16. The way Grace handled Jane’s story told me everything I wanted to know. They called people individually with these ridiculous reasons why Jane was a liar and made it all up. I heard them personally from someone and was aghast it was just accepted as truth. And someone further up this thread just said totally different things that were clearly from that same telephone game.

    For example, my friend said they did know who the perpetrator was and it was “impossible” that he was the one who could do it. To me, that meant he was famous and probably a relative of someone important. I also heard the seminary line, but heard that he in the dorm. So that means he was still a student or he was able to gain access to the dorm somehow. The excuse was given that since she got that fact wrong when she reported it, her whole story had to be wrong and that’s why her story was dismissed. Seriously, that’s the dumbest reason I’ve ever heard. You don’t have to know someone for them to rape you. All of that confirmed they had record of the incident and somebody was trying to put a spin on it (even though it was a really bad spin). It made it completely apparent to me how much Grace people just believed what they were told no matter what.

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  17. brian,

    Yeah, thanks for referring to him as “Mr.” and not “Dr.” I don’t know what the flash is with honorary doctorates, but I’d be embarrassed to let people call me that if I didn’t earn a research degree.

    Hey “Dr.” MacArthur, why don’t you set an example for the flock entrusted to your care and those that admire you and throw off the titles, especially fake ones used to make you sound like a qualified institutional president.

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  18. ishy,

    I forgot the worst lie. That was, “Well, the police decided not to investigate, so that proves it was a false accusation. Anyone whose case isn’t convicted is a liar.”

    Nobody would think that was true about anything else but sexual assault and rape.

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  19. Nobody would think that was true about anything else but sexual assault and rape.

    Meaning that people with
    It’s late, so I’m unclear. Police don’t pursue a lot of investigations for a lot of reasons, but why was the guy believed and she wasn’t? It was exactly what happened when I was assaulted, and there was no larger political and powerful machinations at work. I was not believed simply because I was female. I didn’t make a false accusation against someone, but I was not believed either, even when that man was regularly harassing and assaulting women in public. This is what patriarchy does to women.

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  20. John,

    Here’s a fun list (see below) for John MacArthur to find himself on. The comments for the part on MacArthur are spot on. Scroll to the end. Deception is simply doing things to make people think something different than what’s real or true, such as making people think you have a doctorate and therefore smarter and/or more qualified to lead than you really are. By the way, Stephen Dave’s at Shepherds Seminary in North Carolina, same thing (though he didn’t make the list with the infamous Murdock and MacArthur). If it’s not a real degree, and if it doesn’t really matter, why do people who lead these Christian institutions flaunt them like they have any sort of value? They aren’t trying to leverage them to wow people who know what DD’s are. No, they’re trying to leverage them to make the unsuspecting dive further in and trust more and give more etc. Maybe you’re not hanging out in crazy world with Benny Hinn when it comes to Theology, but if what you believe about education and Scripture doesn’t make you cast this type of deception to the curb, then a MacArthur isn’t all that different at the end of the day.

    http://dustoffthebible.com/Blog-archive/2015/08/19/dr-who-televangelists-with-fake-educations-and-degrees/

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  21. Ricco:
    Such a ridiculous, over-the-top statement. Just because you don’t see something, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

    A commentator at another blog called this the Flat Earther Mentality – “Well, the Earth sure looks flat from where *I* stand, therefore the entire Earth *must* be flat.”

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  22. Maybe you’re not hanging out in crazy world with Benny Hinn when it comes to Theology, but if what you believe about education and Scripture doesn’t make you cast this type of deception to the curb, then a MacArthur isn’t all that different at the end of the day.

    Wow, I’m more educated than almost everyone on that list. Everybody call me Dr. Ishy now!

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  23. Does anyone have any idea what service Kory Welch provided to get all this compensation? I wonder just how inflated the charges are. I wonder if there is any analysis of what would be a reasonable charge for providing what Kory Welch provided.

    It certainly sounds like a conflict of interest. I knew a couple whose husband was a videographer and the wife worked for some company. She needed video services but couldn’t and wouldn’t contract her husband to provide this service since it would have been a conflict of interest.

    If nothing else they should have documentation where they can show that this service was a competitive price they paid though there can be some tricks played with that also such as set one set of requirements everyone prices but then allow Kory Welch to not provide all the services thus being able to undercut his competition.

    Giving all this money to his son in law at the same time asking for donations. What hypocrisy.

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  24. Steve240:
    Does anyone have any idea what service Kory Welch provided to get all this compensation?I wonder just how inflated the charges are.I wonder if there is any analysis of what would be a reasonable charge for providing what Kory Welch provided.

    We looked into his “production company” Dorma Productions. It has a very sad three videos on a Youtube channel and a website that looked like nobody had updated it since they got the domain name. The company was founded in 2007 and has 5 employees.

    I personally wonder what work they happen to be getting paid six figures for, too?

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  25. ishy: Steve240,

    Didn’t go through, but look up Dorma Productions website and Youtube.

    Ishy

    Thanks for the information.

    Out of curiosity I searched and looked at both. It was a real impressive website NOT. Also like 2 or 3 YouTube clips again real impressive NOT.

    For a company taking in the income listed above of almost $8 Million I would have expected a whole lot more. Both the poor website along with just a few YouTube clips posted leads me to believe this is more of a sham. Perhaps the company’s only real or significant client is this university/seminary.

    In other words apparently not a legitimate company.

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  26. “The Christian Post presented John MacArthur Says He Doesn’t Know Any Authentic Evangelical Church Where Racism Is a Problem ”

    This is quite the contradiction to the often used claim that there is no perfect church or perfect leaders.

    As long on people are human there will be some problems in churches including some racism. Hopefully the problems including racism will be minimal and addressed and people will grow and necessary action taken. But to make such a broad based statement and claim is ludicrous.

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  27. Thanks for the good post. Listening to the first part of the speech was difficult because I recognized the logical fallacies MacArthur used to defend himself and his actions. Listening to the last 1/4 was really tough. All his bluster about social justice being an enemy of the gospel, that Martin Luther King was an immoral unbeliever who doesn’t deserve praise, was nauseating. Women, LGBTQ and POC? He denigrates any attempt to ascribe any injustice to any marginalized group as nonsense. There are no victims, because to treat them as having been victims of injustice, or to apologize to them as a group demeans the gospel! He gives away early that he is a Trump supporter.

    I think I will transcribe parts of this and send them to Tawnell D. Hobbs, the education reporter for Newsweek who included Masters in its list of best schools for 2017. When you’re dealing with a racist and misogynistic cult, whose administration is fraught with dual relationships (he also lauds nepotism), alumni responses will be skewed, and this should be acknowledged in the review.

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  28. Steve240: As long on people are human there will be some problems in churches including some racism. Hopefully the problems including racism will be minimal and addressed and people will grow and necessary action taken. But to make such a broad based statement and claim is ludicrous.

    Yes. Let add something, as someone who lives in a mixed race family. Yes, there is some negative ‘racism’ everywhere. There is also such a thing as racial and/or ethnic pride. Not everything that pertains to race or ethnicity is bad. Not every recognition of ethnicity is destructive

    One example, since that is all I really place much value in-personal experience. My oldest g’kid was adopted from China at age one, twelve months exactly. She is what the Chinese call a ‘banana’ being yellow on the outside and white on the inside. The rest of us are all ‘anemia white’. She went to a seminar on how to get college money from a certain secular group and attended one breakout session in which the presenter characterized Asian students and urged them to just basically ‘quit that’. Stop it and be like the rest of us, basically. She informed them that the A in Asian does not stand for A+ so just cool it on that; and other similar ideas. G’kid came home mildly pleased with having found out that ‘I am so stereotypical’ and she felt even more motivated to be as typically Asian as she could because-pride in what that meant. She even wanted to organize the very few Asian kids at school to demonstrate in favor of ‘Access Your Inner Asian!’.

    Meanwhile her mother/my daughter teaches in a school which is about 1/3 each of white, Hispanic and black. Ethnic differences are big-on display-and matters of pride for some while being uncomfortable for some others. Nobody can or should try to force ethnicity to disappear. It should be up to the individuals involved what they want to do and how they can best function. Fostering healthy pride and preserving the good in various cultures should happen all the while demanding that everybody manifest their second culture be it ‘school culture’ as they call it, or public culture or church culture or job culture or whatever as suits various situations.

    In China there are a multitude of ethnic groups and languages and more than one massive language for larger populations, but they have one ‘common language’ which we call Mandarin. I think we can do and are doing something similar in having certain universally required cultural expectations while making room for ethnic differences. Diversity can be a huge strength for this nation. Christianity is by definition not about race or ethnicity. I am no way in favor of stamping out the advantageous diversities and turning us all into cookie cutter robots who all worship the same way or dress the same way or sing the same songs or paint our houses the same color. We ought not turn a blind eye to our diversities, but we do of course need to be wise about what is good and what is actually bad. And we have got to learn for our own benefit that there are some things about some other ethnicities which are better ways of handling some things than what we do.

    So what are we really saying when we say that all people have got to be in the same sort of worship service. Really? So whose theology will be all agree on? Whose music style? Whose behavioral expectations? In other words, who wins and who loses in this? Are we saying that ‘they’ need to come do it ‘our’ way because God likes us better? Ouch. Here is one idea. The only way would be to go back totally to Christianity’s origins and do it the Jesus way; except the Bible says that we don’t have to all be Jews-oops. The NT made exceptions for the Gentiles. So we can’t let various ethnic groups have it their way? I would have to see chapter and verse on that one.

    I file this tirade under the category of Respect.

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  29. okrapod,

    So what you are saying is, it’s not a black and white issue and it could use some nuance . I can get on board with that! If church people left more room for nuance in lots of conversations we would be better off.

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  30. roebuck: Knowing of your adopted place of residence, I’m sure you know the name of this logical fallacy.
    (Yes, it’s called “The No True Scotsman” argument.)

    It’s an old favourite here in Wartburg!

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  31. Ricco:
    If church people left more room for nuance in lots of conversations we would be better off.

    You’d think Christians would embrace difficult challenges, but my experience is that many Christians want simple formulaic answers to everything, and many pastors resort to those formulas and black and white answers. Those people end up extremely unprepared for life and disappointed with God even though God wasn’t the one handing out those formulas.

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  32. ishy,

    The older I get, the more I learn that so many people who are “experts” in their careers are actually very simple minded. Don’t get me wrong. I love that experts are there for us when we need them. But that is why I find it important to get second, third, fourth, etc. opinions. How arrogant of MacArthur to think he holds the only truth on how to do God and seminary. I have had three different cardiologists over the last 24 years and they have all said something different to me. Now the last one has finally had to agree with the first one, ‘just say’n.

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  33. ishy: Christians want simple formulaic answers to everything, and many pastors resort to those formulas

    Easy Church. Tell me which way you want to go and I will get out in front to lead. Tell them what they want to hear, rather than what they need to hear.

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  34. Steve: Gore never said he invented the internet
    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/internet-of-lies/

    Yeah, I knew that – it was one of those sound-bites that political opponents exaggerated to their advantage. However, Gore was instrumental in bringing the internet into existence by shepherding legislative policies which allowed it to come “on-line” … but he didn’t “invent” it.

    Sort of like Sarah Palin saying “I can see Russia from my house?” Of course, she can’t … she was simply saying Alaska is in close proximity to Russia.

    You can’t really believe much of what politicians say.

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  35. Steve240: Does anyone have any idea what service Kory Welch provided to get all this compensation? I wonder just how inflated the charges are. I wonder if there is any analysis of what would be a reasonable charge for providing what Kory Welch provided.

    I wonder if Kory Welch is related to Robert Welch of John Birch Society fame? Or Ed Welch? Anyone have insight? Unfortunately, in the last decade or so, the legitimate genealogical information once freely available online became locked up – I used to casually do some of that sort of research, but would now cost big bucks to get very far. Wikipedia used to list peoples’ parents, grandparents, children, etc., but even that avenue has been closed. MacArthur has some pretty interesting acquaintances, as does his father. Just a look at JM’s claims concerning the persons and places during the Martin Luther King assassination leaves one scratching one’s head. Ya don’t even have to be a Conspiracy Theorist to be amazed at all of the connections so many celebrities have to political powerhouses.

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  36. You cannot serve God and Mammon. What Biblical ground does any of these guys claim to stand on when they went from poor or middle-class to multi-millionaires by selling a gospel? You cannot serve God and Mammon. You will love, hold to the one and despise the other. Who are these celebrities actually despising by their actions? This clown is worth over an estimated $12 mil: http://www.hyperactivz.com/net-worths-richest-pastors-america-will-shock/

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  37. dee:
    I would ask that we not get into the Mason conspiracy.I believe that it detracts from other more pressing issues.

    Nothing like a good conspiracy on a slow weekend. Don’t knock it.

    It’s like campfires, Smores and scary stories. Some things are just sacred.

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  38. I don’t get where the racism is in the NY Times article. It sounds like they’re leaving church over politics, not racism. Personally, I’d be really happy if my church didn’t shove politics down my throat. At all. Not right, nor left. I get a smattering of left at the moment.

    One of the church exiters complained that nobody knew about Trayvon Martin, but that case isn’t clear cut. If you actually saw a picture of Trayvon as he was as a teenager rather than the little boy photo the media kept passing off, you’d realize that Trayvon looked like he was gangbanging big time. While the neighborhood watch guy should’ve followed police orders rather than pursuing, I don’t think most people would blame him for thinking Trayvon was up to no good if they actually saw the photo of all grown up Trayvon.

    The rest of the article appeared to be Trump bashing. I’m not a total rabid fangirl of Trump, but I think we get that enough 24/7 on TV. This is just more politics, not racism. If politics is being pushed from the pulpit, then I totally understand leaving. But if it’s not, I don’t think that’s grounds to complain, and it isn’t racism. It sounds like some of the people exiting are upset that their particular flavor of politics is *not* being pushed from the pulpit. Politics is very divisive, and I think it wise not to pick a favorite policy or candidate in church. I have both Christian Democrats and Republicans in my family, and we get along and understand why we vote the way we do. Ironically, one Democrat for sure in my family voted for Trump–he is a blue collar union worker, but still pro-life and conservative in many ways. He didn’t vote for Trump because he’s racist. It’s because there’s no work. People who do not understand why many people voted for Trump need to go see a certain clip of Michael Moore explaining it. He gets it. I myself, having strong blue collar family ties on both sides of my family, have many overlaps with the Democratic party, at least as it used to be, as I am very pro-union, though I am also pro-life.

    These people exiting church need to learn a bit of tolerance for people who have different political views, perhaps try to understand why they think they way they do. Only then can they begin to persuade, or–GASP–even be persuaded. The best thing a church can do is NOT talk politics–including not taking sides on not very clear-cut issues. I’d be grateful if church were a safe haven from politics. It isn’t racism to drop it for a while and learn to love each other.

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  39. ishy: Police don’t pursue a lot of investigations for a lot of reasons, but why was the guy believed and she wasn’t? It was exactly what happened when I was assaulted, and there was no larger political and powerful machinations at work. I was not believed simply because I was female. I didn’t make a false accusation against someone, but I was not believed either, even when that man was regularly harassing and assaulting women in public. This is what patriarchy does to women.

    So sorry, ishy. This was just horrible for you and so many others. Thanks for bring here to share your perspective with us.

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  40. Steve240: Giving all this money to his son in law at the same time asking for donations. What hypocrisy.

    And who pays the outrageous amount to the son in law . . . tuition (students) and pew sitters.

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  41. Mr. Jesperson: What Biblical ground does any of these guys claim to stand on when they went from poor or middle-class to multi-millionaires by selling a gospel?

    They would have to twist the following Scripture beyond reason to justify enormous salaries and benefits.

    “The elders who perform their leadership duties well are to be considered worthy of double honor (financial support), especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching [the word of God concerning eternal salvation through Christ]. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain [to keep it from eating],” and, “The worker is worthy of his wages [he deserves fair compensation].” (1 Timothy 5:17-18)

    Multi-millionaire church leaders would have to twist that Scripture beyond reason to justify their enormous salaries and benefits. “Fair” compensation is reasonable, but mega salary packages are not. Jesus said He would go to prepare a mansion for us in Heaven not on earth. And He certainly didn’t benefit financially: “Foxes have dens to live in, and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place even to lay his head” (Matthew 8:20).

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  42. I’d note that Phil Johnson and others mixed it up with a black woman, Tori Williams Douglass, on Twitter yesterday. It was about racism. She does not cut him any slack. Some people will be uncomfortable with what she says but I do appreciate that she went after him.

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  43. Here’s an update on my brother. In May 2017, he was in a hit and run accident in New Mexico. As a result of the accident, he had two crushed discs in his neck, which caused enormous pain. (Trust me, he was cranky as all get out.) Last December, a plate was put in his neck for a spinal fusion. It worked great, he was back to normal and everything was wonderful.

    Back on August 15, he went on vacation and I took over looking after our mother. He came back on the 22nd, complaining of a sore throat after he had a bout of food poisoning and its attendant effects. The next day, he drove himself to the ER because he couldn’t swallow. Long story short–he has an edema in his throat and it’s right next to the plate. He was moved to another hospital in Phoenix and got out on Sunday. Monday night, after I got off from work, he was having issues again and I drove him back to Phoenix. He got out on Wednesday evening. Very early Friday morning he called me (but he didn’t wake me up, I was already awake) and he sounded like he was being strangled. I fetched him and we went to a third hospital, where he is currently residing until a likely surgery on Tuesday to remove the plate in his neck.

    So that’s the story. I covet your prayers for a successful surgery, that my mother remains calm through this, that I remain calm through this, and that my brother’s dog doesn’t get on my nerves more than she already has with her neediness. Thanks!

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  44. Asdfghjkl;,

    Oh I am sure they were Freemasons which I dont quite get all the conspiracy aspect of it. I know a 32-degree mason offered my parents free hospital care when I was six and stupid enough to bet burned so bad at Shriners hospital. A side note I was told it might have been better I had died in that fire because I had “apostatized” from the faith thus betrayed Christ and like Judas it would have been better if I was not ever born. Basically, I did not burn long enough but God would take care of that when I died.

    I guess my point the Mason’s offered me and my family far more than any evangelical faith community I ever belong to ever did. If that makes any sense.

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  45. Steve: “Multi-millionaire church leaders”

    Something seems wrong about this phrase.

    How about just stop at ‘multi-millionaire’?

    Oh, I know about Solomon and Job and other rich bible dudes, but seriously, could a person who loves others as self amass great wealth when there are so many needy? And no, they are not all lazy, good-for-nothing welfare cheats. If you haven’t been paying attention, things have been getting more and more difficult for those who do not have the benefit of inheriting generational wealth and prospects. For some reason, the has’s keep writing laws that benefit them, and the has-nots keep suffering.

    I’ve traded in the American Dream for the desire to learn how to make do with less. Heck, I started out dirt poor . . . the worst that can happen is I might have to suffer like so many others do. Kids (5) are almost all through school, and I just have to pray to overcome the fear of becoming victim to a heartless, out of control bureaucracy. I kick myself for falling victim to so many lies which allowed me to think it was all about me and mine, and cared too little about the rest of my human family. Anyone else ready to start a new hippie movement – minus the CIA issued drugs and the corruption of sex into the main event? Too old for that anyway, ;).

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  46. I only listened to the 2nd recording of 29 min. The speaker read various Bible verses supporting not being contentious. There was also about 11 min summary of his forthcoming sermon series on why churches shouldn’t focus on ‘social justice’ issues & people being incorrectly considered as victims rather than sinners. Aside from the actual subject I found it somewhat evasive as it was nothing to do with the audit.
    There were references to the audit/review/report including reassurances that there was nothing to worry about, that the report is inaccurate & is an attack, & that the likelihood is that at the return visit in Feb they will remove the probation & show everything was ok. And that people needed to have a good heart & not have the temptation to talk to outsiders.
    I found the final comments (from 28 min) worrying for employees. To me it sounded like a “sanctified” ‘ keep your mouths shut’. The speaker says he doesn’t blame the ?WASC? as they’re just the ears & eyes, they just showed up & this is what they were told. “They just gave us back what they hear & that’s ok because now we can help people get better & behave better & be thankful. And rejoice always, again I say rejoice, stop being bitter, stop complaining, be happy, be rejoicing. We’re commanded to rejoice, & we have plenty to rejoice about. Get your eyes off yourself & on to the.. Lord.. Do I hear an amen?”

    Not from me he didn’t.

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  47. TS00: but seriously, could a person who loves others as self amass great wealth when there are so many needy?

    Yes definitely.
    I have had the blessing of knowing a few wealthy people in my small circle of life friends and acquaintances. Their focus through much of life was on productive tasks where they excelled and the wealth appeared not to be the goal but was a by-product. One gentlemen who I knew for over forty years went to his grave just last year. A wonderful man, despite his concerted efforts later in life into his 90s, his wealth still increased faster than he could give it away. On the occasion of a few visits, conversation revealed it seemed a burden to him.

    Even though I do not hold that level of wealth I can still recognize that giving money is a difficult responsibility and finding worthy causes takes much time, wisdom and continual revision. Giving freely carries with it the potential for negative as well as positive outcome.

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  48. Thersites,

    We have always sought to give ‘responsibly’ as well, but I really don’t think one would have too much trouble with money backing up while trying to find enough worthy causes to give to. Yeah, we used to buy into such capitalistic tropes – they do make one feel better.

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  49. TS00: I’ve traded in the American Dream for the desire to learn how to make do with less.

    Less is better. Stuff will control you. I came into the world with nothing and I have most of that left.

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  50. dee: I am praying for your brother. That sounds like an awful issue-edema in the throat. It must make him fee like he is choking.

    I join in prayer solidarity for Muslin’s brother too.

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  51. TS00: Yeah, we used to buy into such capitalistic tropes – they do make one feel better.

    Capitalistic trope? What? TWW used to be a site where I could respectfully engage but some of my last outings here have been very discouraging.

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  52. Thersites,

    I’m sorry for being snarky, but you must admit it is hard to take seriously, “his wealth still increased faster than he could give it away. On the occasion of a few visits, conversation revealed it seemed a burden to him.” There are so many who could relieve his ‘burden’, and maybe go to bed knowing there will be food for the kids tomorrow, or gas to get to work.

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  53. TS00: There are so many who could relieve his ‘burden’, and maybe go to bed knowing there will be food for the kids tomorrow, or gas to get to work.

    Does this person exist in your community? Do you have the ability to find and assess the situation and apply the right remedy? It will likely take a lot of time and not money, money may actually be the wrong regimen. There are organizations that purport to have this capacity but are they legit and do they do it right? When you are dealing with thousands of dollars there is at least the ability to deal face to face, for larger sums it becomes a much different strategy. It is one reason that poorer people are often the most generous per capita, they have the direct contact with other people with such needs and hence they give more as a percentage of their meager income to help than that given by the typical middle class.

    I of moderate means have found it very difficult to determine whether someone will use money for the purpose they advertise. I have also had opportunity to regret my support for some organizations. As for the man I mentioned, he was one of unassailable character and to dismiss him with such snark suggests a lack of imagination. His remaining assets are now largely setup in a trust for some organizations, I was on the board of one of them. Just for the record I felt smarmy soliciting a donation from someone I knew well, even though I believed in the organization. If you cannot take my earlier point about him seriously then I don’t know how to bridge that gap.

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  54. ION: Cricket

    In an intriguingly-poised Fourth Test, England set India a target of 246 to win. This could go either way! It’s been a strange test match, with a catastrophic top-order collapse from England followed by a lower-order recovery, and a decent bowling performance – Cheteshwar Pujara’s magnificent century notwithstanding – restricting India’s first-innings lead to a few dozen.

    India are currently 22-3; but Kohli is at the crease…

    IHTIH

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  55. Thersites,

    Again, I apologize for being rude. Having moved from one place in my mind to another, I find myself triggered before I know it, and say more than I ought.

    We have no great wealth, but in trying to share some of what we have through the years, we realized that the wisest approach was neither to trust every organization that called itself charitable, nor to hand out dollars on the street. Even of those we have chosen throughout the years, there are some institutions I could not now support.

    I am far more prone, in my latter days, to seek ways to support needs within my own community. For instance, some states have had a good deal of flooding, some fires or some other natural disasters; such events put innocent victims in a state of genuine, unpreventable need. There may be no tax write off, but I am leaning toward directly helping people I see in genuine need, rather than hoping some organization actually uses donations legitimately, rather than to enrich someone. It is the tax code, and our desire to make the best use of it, which creates much of our difficulty, would you not agree? It is this sort of built-in straight-jacket, which has been carefully crafted to limit our choices, which I am finding unnecessarily confining.

    I feel deeply for needy children, even in situations in which their parents have made and continue to make poor choices. Children are not responsible for their parents’ actions, and deserve love and assistance, rather than to bear the brunt of another’s sin or addictions. There are many mothers with small children, sometimes in abusive or other unhealthy situations, who have very few choices due to financial need. Sadly, I do not think we can outgive these needs.

    I struggle with my angst at the world, my dismay with the worsening poverty and misery of many, and my growing belief that American capitalism is, by far, not the best manifestation of loving others as self, and the conflict that creates with those who view it as the only way.

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  56. Nick Bulbeck: Darlene: Did I understand your words correctly, Nick? Though you were once were Christian, you are not any longer?
    That’s correct, yes.

    I am not about to get into some discussion about this. However, I am curious because what you have said is pretty common among humans. If you can do so without saying anything that you don’t want to say, and if you believe me when I say I will not remotely argue with you about this, how do you define the word ‘christian’ for the purposes of how it applies to your statement about yourself.

    I am working on the assumption that since you have mentioned this several time, here in public, that you will not mind my asking.

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  57. Max: They would have to twist the following Scripture beyond reason to justify enormous salaries and benefits.
    “The elders who perform their leadership duties well are to be considered worthy of double honor (financial support), especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching [the word of God concerning eternal salvation through Christ]. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain [to keep it from eating],” and, “The worker is worthy of his wages [he deserves fair compensation].” (1 Timothy 5:17-18)

    They could use that passage to justify excessive wealth and income but would have to ignore these verses:

    2 Peter 2: 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

    1 Timothy 6: 5and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain. 6But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction

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  58. Max: Less is better. Stuff will control you.

    Amen. That’s the true-true.
    It’s what the latest androids and ipads are designed to do.
    Sell you stuff and more stuff (it’s never enough).
    Bait you like perch and blue-gills with baubles and glitz that will part you from your hard earned cash.

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  59. TS00: It is the tax code, and our desire to make the best use of it, which creates much of our difficulty, would you not agree? It is this sort of built-in straight-jacket, which has been carefully crafted to limit our choices, which I am finding unnecessarily confining.

    That is a good point. When you give to a charity you can deduct the contribution and thus roughly it only costs you 70% of what you contribute. There is also the loophole with stocks where you can give appreciated stocks and deduct the appreciated value while avoiding capital gains tax.

    I guess one thing to consider is maybe you are better off giving privately though in theory you can only give 70% of what you could have done had you given to a charity. Giving privately to someone you know in need insures it is to a good and needy cause. Also charities have overhead so for every dollar you give to a charity only a portion goes to the actual charitable cause.

    We give school supplies/back packs to the kids of a single mother we know rather than giving general school supplies where there are drives for them. At least we know these supplies/backpacks are going to kids who need it.

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  60. Steve: Pretty sure this is where Kory Welch and Melinda MacArthur Welch live. They bought this in March 2018.
    https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/15656-Iron-Canyon-Rd-Santa-Clarita-CA-91387/20217678_zpid/

    Interesting a $1.3 Million dollar house. So that is where all those payment went to buy this expensive house. 5,400 square ft and 2.16 acres of land.

    If all this financial impropriety is true and John MacArthur’s son in law was overpaid for whatever work supposedly done then I really wonder if MacArtur has a conscience and shocked to see him putting himself out there as a believer.

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  61. Muff Potter: Bait you like perch and blue-gills with baubles and glitz that will part you from your hard earned cash.

    I’m guilty! One of my few vices in life is fishing. I would rather be throwing hard earned cash at fishing equipment than supporting millionaire megachurch pastors.

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  62. Steve240: “Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction”

    All you millionaire megachurch pastors, and wannabes, BEWARE!

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  63. TS00,

    I agree; have been scaling back my support to para-church corporations and perhaps will exit entirely at some point. The “Iron Law of Institutions” suggests that even if such corporations start out well, over time they inevitably tend to be re-oriented away from their original mission and toward personal agendas. Eric Hoffer’s famous remark about the end state of all great causes also comes to mind.

    Dee — if this does not violate site comment policy (it may approach the boundaries — am not sure and am still learning. If you decide to remove it, I cheerfully accept that), I think this page may interest TS00 and other readers who have similar concerns. I’ve been following the work of these people for more than a decade and have found it to be very helpful in my thinking about “policy”

    http://neweconomicperspectives.org/modern-monetary-theory-primer.html

    I suspect that the author, Randall Wray, may have had some disagreeable experience with church people as there are places where there is gratuitous snark, though not as snarky as things that routinely appear at TWW. This “primer” is descriptive in terms of how public (federal) finances work. The author has an explicit liberal bias in terms of his policy preferences, but one could alternatively overlay a conservative set of preferences for “what ought to be done”. The point of the primer is to clear away flawed thinking about “how public finances actually work” and therefore to correct flawed conceptions of what the limits are on “what is possible.”

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  64. TS00: my dismay with the worsening poverty and misery of many, and my growing belief that American capitalism is, by far, not the best manifestation of loving others as self

    At the root this may be the issue. While we both find the large diversion of charitable funds into private hands to be reprehensible, especially in the church, the resentment of wealth is a bad road to go down. Wealth in this current age is not the old inherited privilege and land holdings that defined it for most of recorded history, the type of wealth represented by the rich young ruler of Jesus day. That wealth was closely guarded and once lost was not regained.

    There are now many multimillionaires in most communities and with high earners they usually achieve wealth through saving. The wealthy person is not the one with the BMW and the McMansion but rather the one with the modest house and the 8 year old Ford in the driveway. If anything I have found the big spenders to be stingy and the savers to be generally the most generous both with charities and in business dealings. I am curious if there is a direct link between the ability to save and the ability to give.

    Our societal problem with mal-distribution of wealth, those who collect at the bottom, will not be solved by resentment of those with wealth. The last century should have taught us that “solution” leads to massive suffering and the motivation for murderous regimes that slaughtered over a hundred million souls.

    I would also like to add the encouragement that there is not increasing poverty in the world but rather an enormous number of people daily being lifted out of poverty. Simultaneously there are several books written that detail how regardless of the type government or economy the same relative income disparity remains, the major differences between systems are in the total wealth generated.

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  65. Samuel Conner: The “Iron Law of Institutions” suggests that even if such corporations start out well, over time they inevitably tend to be re-oriented away from their original mission and toward personal agendas

    Often their mission morphs into merely their own continuance.

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  66. TS00: American capitalism is, by far, not the best manifestation of loving others as self, and the conflict that creates with those who view it as the only way.

    But I’m pretty sure it allows for more opportunity than Venezuelan socialism. I believe it is a bad mistake to think that a political system can either cause or solve the problem of people not doing a better job of loving others.

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  67. Thersites: If anything I have found the big spenders to be stingy and the savers to be generally the most generous both with charities and in business dealings.I am curious if there is a direct link between the ability to save and the ability to give.

    I suggest that there is a link — the habit of saving is related to the habit of intentionally living below one’s income, which means that one has “margin” that can be deployed into generosity/kindness/mercy. One doesn’t need to be rich to be generous. It helps to be frugal toward oneself.

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  68. Steve,

    Yuck!! The Thorsten Veblen House. Take a look at those garish, vulgar bathrooms. Talk about “more money than taste.” But maybe the new owners remodeled them? We can but hope!

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  69. How dare you post someone’s “presumed” address. How many people must suffer before your blood thirst is satisfied? You people are truly horrible human beings. And absolutely NOTHING about what you’re doing is Christlike. I attempted to post this from my phone with no success. So, if the host has to approve comments, then you too are culpable for anything that happens to who does live at this address. And the fact that you are not allowing a dissenting opinion to appear on your site reveals the type of person you really are. Disgusting!

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  70. Thersites,

    We should praise God for the wealthy who generously give to support the needy, and also missionaries and churches which would otherwise not be able to function. Jesus was supported by Joanna and other women of means throughout His ministry. Those of us who, like me, have limited funds give as we can, but the Lord has graciously given to some the responsibility of wealth, and many less well-off have benefited. We less affluent believers should not judge nor envy but rather rejoice that the Lord has blessed some in this way to be a blessing to His people and for His purposes.
    At the same time some have become wealthy when they should not have done (such as some pastors who have been mentioned). Because of greed these people have grasped their wealth instead of viewing it as a privilege and honor to use for the kingdom. It has become a snare for them and they deserve to be criticized. I am very wary to whom I give and like others choose the known need rather than risking donating to the coffers of people like them.

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  71. Max: Sort of like Sarah Palin saying “I can see Russia from my house?” Of course, she can’t … she was simply saying Alaska is in close proximity to Russia.

    Actually, Tina Fey said that.

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  72. Pingback: Should The Master's University insist on loyalty to authority more than care for the oppressed? | | Here's the Joy

  73. David: Max: Sort of like Sarah Palin saying “I can see Russia from my house?” Of course, she can’t … she was simply saying Alaska is in close proximity to Russia.

    Actually, Tina Fey said that.

    Gov. Palin’s exact quote in her interview with Charlie Gibson was “They’re our next-door neighbors, and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska.” Tina Fey spoofed her words a few days later on SNL “I can see Russia from my house.”

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  74. Jeffery

    I am reporting your comment to the authorities due to your threat. I have your IP address and other information that will be given to law enforcement.

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  75. Frankly, I had taken John MacArthur off my radar … until he started hanging out with the Together for the Gospel cast of characters. As a “classical” Calvinist, he just doesn’t seem to fit with New Calvinists such as Piper, Mohler, Dever, Chandler, Platt, etc. (Beware of this bunch: http://t4g.org/about/). I find it amazing that the young reformers going to T4G conferences line up for selfies with MacArthur, elevating him to icon/idol status. Of course, the YRR do represent another market for his wares.

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  76. Everything John MacArthur says makes perfect sense once you realize one thing about him: when he does not want to acknowledge that something exists, he simply states that it doesn’t. Voila – problem solved! So simple and so effective! Amongst his true believers, anyway.

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  77. gg: the Lord has graciously given to some the responsibility of wealth

    Sometimes it’s the Lord, other times it’s human greed, dishonesty or any of the other common avenues to wealth in this fallen world.

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  78. SiteSeer: Everything John MacArthur says makes perfect sense once you…

    I was expecting your sentence to include something related to consuming appropriate doses of the right beverages, or suspending reality, or sleep deprivation, etc.

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  79. Clockwork Angel: These people exiting church need to learn a bit of tolerance for people who have different political views, perhaps try to understand why they think they way they do. Only then can they begin to persuade, or–GASP–even be persuaded. The best thing a church can do is NOT talk politics–including not taking sides on not very clear-cut issues. I’d be grateful if church were a safe haven from politics. It isn’t racism to drop it for a while and learn to love each other.

    You realize they are trying to introduce legislation to make it okay to preach politics in church.

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  80. Ken F (aka Tweed): I was expecting your sentence to include something related to consuming appropriate doses of the right beverages, or suspending reality, or sleep deprivation, etc.

    Well, it does have to do with suspending reality, for sure.

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  81. Steve: Pretty sure this is where Kory Welch and Melinda MacArthur Welch live. They bought this in March 2018.

    Interesting as it is to see how the other half lives, and that this is just publicly available information, I don’t know if it’s a good idea to dox people. It could be taken wrongly.

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  82. SiteSeer:
    Everything John MacArthur says makes perfect sense once you realize one thing about him: when he does not want to acknowledge that something exists, he simply states that it doesn’t. Voila – problem solved! So simple and so effective! Amongst his true believers, anyway.

    That’s exactly like every hard comp guy who ever hit on me…

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  83. Ken F (aka Tweed) (quoting SiteSeer):

    Everything John MacArthur says makes perfect sense once you…

    I was expecting your sentence to include something related to consuming appropriate doses of the right beverages, or suspending reality, or sleep deprivation, etc.

    This should be one of those fill-in-the-blank Things.

    Everything Nick says makes perfect sense once you…

    … realise the important distinction between not out and yet to bat, insofar as a player who isn’t out per se is not necessarily not out, since you have to have been in in order to be either out or not out, and not being out isn’t the same as being in in the formal sense.

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  84. In the vein of the Danvers and Nashville Statements, MacArthur, others unveiled today an anti social justice manifesto:

    https://statementonsocialjustice.com

    Initial signatories are a virtual rogues gallery of Pyromaniacs, Founders, ARBCA personalities. Who else? A Duggar son-in-law, controversialist James White and daughter Summer…

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  85. ‘Founders’ head Tom Ascol:

    https://founders.org/2018/09/04/the-statement-on-social-justice-and-the-gospel/

    “On June 19 of this year I had the privilege of meeting in the iconic Herb’s House coffee shop in Dallas with 13 other men to discuss our common concerns about some teachings and practices being advocated in the name of “social justice”… we determined to make a public stand together in hopes of warning about the dangers we see in some of what is being promoted in the name of social justice…Today “The Statement on Social Justice and the Gospel” is being released to address the concerns that were articulated in that June 19th meeting.”

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  86. Jerome: ‘Founders’ head Tom Ascol:

    https://founders.org/2018/09/04/the-statement-on-social-justice-and-the-gospel/

    Hmmmm … could it be that SBC’s “Old” Calvinists represented by Tom Ascol and his “Founders” Ministry is about to challenge the culturally-relevant tribe of “New” Calvinists spreading through SBC ranks?

    I found the intro to the document particularly interesting: “Clarity on these issues will fortify believers and churches to withstand an onslaught of dangerous and false teachings that threaten the gospel, misrepresent Scripture, and lead people away from the grace of God in Jesus Christ.”

    Heck, that describes New Calvinism IMO!

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  87. Steve:
    Pretty sure this is where Kory Welch and Melinda MacArthur Welch live. They bought this in March 2018.

    https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/15656-Iron-Canyon-Rd-Santa-Clarita-CA-91387/20217678_zpid/

    The address is in the hills (if not mountains) NW of Los Angeles, N of the north main San Fernando Valley and S of Sylmar. (These mountains are a transition zone between the scrublands of the LA basin and the Mojave Desert inland; I do not know where the address stands on that spectrum.) For those of you unfamiliar with LA real estate, the beach and hills/mountains are the REAL pricy areas. (And the hills/mountains are also where you hear about those HUGE wildfires every year. Burn-and-Rebuild two-step.) From the street arrangement in the area, it looks like large-lot cul-de-sacs — again, characteristic of a VERY pricy area zoned to keep out “the wrong kind of people”.

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  88. Max: Gov. Palin’s exact quote in her interview with Charlie Gibson was “They’re our next-door neighbors, and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska.”Tina Fey spoofed her words a few days later on SNL “I can see Russia from my house.”

    Said island has to be in the Diomedes, right in the middle of the Bering Strait. The Russian/American border runs right between the two islands.

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  89. Nick Bulbeck: Everything Nick says makes perfect sense once you…

    …realize that Cricket is incomprehensible to anyone outside of certain British Commonwealth countries and various West Indies islands.

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  90. gg: At the same time some have become wealthy when they should not have done (such as some pastors who have been mentioned). Because of greed these people have grasped their wealth instead of viewing it as a privilege and honor to use for the kingdom.

    As an old fantasy gamer, don’t DRAGONS traditionally hoard their wealth?
    Remember Smaug when Bilbo took that one item from his hoard?

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  91. Samuel Conner: I suggest that there is a link — the habit of saving is related to the habit of intentionally living below one’s income, which means that one has “margin” that can be deployed into generosity/kindness/mercy.

    i.e. “Live BELOW your Means”. Bling is The Enemy.

    “If you make a million an year and spend a million a year, you are not rich. You’re just living high.”

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  92. Headless Unicorn Guy: Said island has to be in the Diomedes, right in the middle of the Bering Strait. The Russian/American border runs right between the two islands.

    Most likely. Gov. Palin was right; the media goobers who criticized her don’t have a clue about geography.

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  93. SiteSeer:
    Everything John MacArthur says makes perfect sense once you realize one thing about him: when he does not want to acknowledge that something exists, he simply states that it doesn’t. Voila – problem solved! So simple and so effective! Amongst his true believers, anyway.

    Amid True Believer followers in general.
    Especially in today’s age of One True Way Echo Chambers, outside of which all is Fake News(TM).

    “I Reject YOUR Reality and Substitute My Own!”
    — Mythbusters (though there it was said as a joke)

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  94. Samuel Conner: The “Iron Law of Institutions” suggests that even if such corporations start out well, over time they inevitably tend to be re-oriented away from their original mission and toward personal agendas. Eric Hoffer’s famous remark about the end state of all great causes also comes to mind.

    Like Bureaucracy + Entropy + Time, devolving from Lawful Neutral through Lawful Stupid into a final rest state of Lawful Evil.

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  95. LittleGuy: This school might have had its accreditation for a while, but they’ve been given fair warning to fix their problems over the years.
    I don’t think this will end well for them.

    At which point, they scream “PERSECUTION!!!!!!!” and the $upport $still come$ in in bucket$.
    Christians are such easy marks…

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  96. Max: the media goobers who criticized her don’t have a clue about geography

    I wouldn’t limited it to geography. The last few years I have foregone reading much of their offerings except for the occasion when it is a subject of interest. When you have some knowledge it reveals astounding the lack of understanding of many in the news media, perhaps even the lack of even a desire for understanding.

    I think we are in the midst of an information revolution similar to the invention of the Guttenberg press. Many bright minds are now producing long form presentations of ideas on the internet, an hour or more in length, and getting large audiences. I’m guessing the old media is now getting the sloppy seconds in terms of new talent.

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  97. ishy:
    ishy,

    I forgot the worst lie. That was, “Well, the police decided not to investigate, so that proves it was a false accusation. Anyone whose case isn’t convicted is a liar.”

    Nobody would think that was true about anything else but sexual assault and rape.

    This comes out all the time in MRA kind of sites too and people who like to talk about ‘false’ accusations.

    Not having enough evidence to prosecute or convict does NOT equal a finding of false accusation.

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  98. ishy: “Well, the police decided not to investigate

    Also, how on earth would you even began to determine if something was false or true if you don’t investigate???

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  99. Eeyore: Ricco:
    Such a ridiculous, over-the-top statement. Just because you don’t see something, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

    A commentator at another blog called this the Flat Earther Mentality – “Well, the Earth sure looks flat from where *I* stand, therefore the entire Earth *must* be flat.”

    See also, ‘Bob Never did this to me and I never saw Bob harass, threaten or rape any woman (usually spoken by a man), so it can’t be true’.

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  100. What distinguishes Old Calvinism from New Calvinism? I thought all forms of Calvinism aggressively trumpeted forth and enforced all five points of Calvinism. (Being a medium-range Arminian, I reject all five points of Calvinism. I still consider humanity to be severely sinful by nature. But I take the dimmest possible view of both the general humanism of Pelagians and secular humanists, and the selective humanism of the total depravity school.)

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  101. Thersites: I’m guessing the old media is now getting the sloppy seconds in terms of new talent.

    They are only holding on by their fingernails through sensational reporting. I stopped taking the evening TV news seriously years ago.

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  102. Jerome: In the vein of the Danvers and Nashville Statements, MacArthur, others unveiled today an anti social justice manifesto:
    https://statementonsocialjustice.com

    Thank you for the research as always, Jerome! From the statement:

    “Specifically, we are deeply concerned that values borrowed from secular culture are currently undermining Scripture in the areas of race and ethnicity, manhood and womanhood, and human sexuality.”

    Oh no! So many terrible things being promoted in ‘culture’. Like ‘equality’ Good thing there is not tons of abuse, power struggles and fleecing of cash to line people’s own pockets in the church. Good thing the church hasn’t been known to support things like slavery using the bible as a shield. What drivel this is.

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  103. Jerome: https://statementonsocialjustice.com

    Apologies for quoting one more thing:
    “We reject any teaching that encourages racial groups to view themselves as privileged oppressors or entitled victims of oppression. ”

    *sigh*

    ‘Entitled’ to what exactly? Fairness? Equality? Decency? Life? Somebodys mad and can’t write what they really want to say, but if some think of themselves as ‘privileged oppressors’ then maybe they actually are. And maybe if they are oppressing someone, said person is entitled to be irritated at it. And to call them out.

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  104. Headless Unicorn Guy: i.e. “Live BELOW your Means”. Bling is The Enemy.
    “If you make a million an year and spend a million a year, you are not rich. You’re just living high.”

    “Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pound ought and six, result misery.”

    ― Charles Dickens, David Copperfield

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  105. Lea: That sounds rather ominous to me.

    Yeah it does. You (generic you) can do just about anything in their world (fundagelicalism, reformed or non, it makes no difference), pyramid schemes, portfolios that grind third world farmers into the dust, you name it.
    Just so long as you’re not having sex outside of marriage, you’re good to go.

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  106. Is there going to be any mention of the goings on in the RCC? The latest call for silence and prayer is yet another interesting development. I’m not that knowledgeable on the inner workings and was hoping for a post here that would give some assistance in sorting things out.

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  107. Thersites,

    I follow it as I can on secular news and a couple or so catholic sites, but I have no plans, zip, none, no way and no how. to get into any discussion about it here. I hope they get it solved. I hope we can eventually all join in some massive repentance both catholic and protestant and also everybody else for a multitude of things that have been going on, but in the meantime I don’t plan to light a match around any firecracker display. Some things are just not constructive.

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  108. Lea: “We further affirm that God’s design for marriage is that one woman and one man live in a one-flesh, covenantal, sexual relationship until separated by death. ”

    That sounds rather ominous to me.

    Well, then all dem menz that can’t do the sex thing when they get old is outside de will o gawd! (sarcasm intentional)

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  109. Muff Potter: You (generic you) can do just about anything in their world (fundagelicalism, reformed or non, it makes no difference), pyramid schemes, portfolios that grind third world farmers into the dust, you name it.
    Just so long as you’re not having sex outside of marriage, you’re good to go.

    And even “sex outside of marriage” is good to go if the ManaGAWD is Highborn enough.
    “TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!”

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  110. Lea: “We further affirm that God’s design for marriage is that one woman and one man live in a one-flesh, covenantal, sexual relationship until separated by death. ”

    That sounds rather ominous to me.

    Indeed. The Church has misinterpreted the bible on divorce for centuries, and this, once again, sets the error in stone. This must be what it must have felt like to have Calvin slowly take over Geneva (and much more, due to his influence) and watch the screws tightened ever so slowly. Divorce and you will be burned on green wood. Too bad if your husband is an abuser. Too bad if your wife stopped loving you long ago. Too bad if you have such different perspectives on God and life that you are moving in completely opposite directions.

    There is no such thing as Once married, always married. A love relationship is always voluntary; meaning the covenant is broken when one person renigs on his promises, for whatever reason. God will not compel us to remain in relationship with him, nor can an unloved spouse be compelled to remain in an unhealthy marriage. (While it is true that God will never be unfaithful to us or cast us aside, he will not compel us to remain if we grow cold and desire to turn away from him.)

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  111. Lea: “We further affirm that God’s design for marriage is that one woman and one man live in a one-flesh, covenantal, sexual relationship until separated by death. ”

    One could, of course, affirm that God’s design was to have all mankind live in a covenantal relationship with him forever as well, with no sin, period. The problem with Calvinism is that, in not allowing for the free choices of men and women to sin, nothing in this world makes sense, unless God is and loves evil.

    Divorce, of course, is not something God created because it was so much fun for everyone. Rather, because of the hardness of men’s hearts (sin), God did not consign people to a miserable life sentence in an abusive or loveless marriage. Careful study will reveal that much has been misconstrued concerning scripture’s teaching on marriage and divorce, as well as the alleged patriarchy of the Calvinistas. I believe these guys genuinely want to establish another totalitarian state like Geneva, in which their interpretations of scripture cannot be questioned.

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  112. okrapod: I don’t plan to light a match around any firecracker display

    Likely true yet I felt the need to poke at the fire. An equally interesting discussion would be an articulation of reasons for not having the discussion. I’m still troubled by the lack of coverage over something that may have an enormous impact within that very old institution.

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  113. Jerome:
    In the vein of the Danvers and Nashville Statements, MacArthur, others unveiled today an anti social justice manifesto:

    https://statementonsocialjustice.com

    Initial signatories are a virtual rogues gallery of Pyromaniacs, Founders, ARBCA personalities.Who else?A Duggar son-in-law, controversialist James White and daughter Summer…

    I read that Manifesto.It is filled with ambiguity. They use terms and don’t even go into defining them. The assumption is that you’re (generic you) on the same mind/wavelength as them and they don’t have to give explanations. I suspect this Manifesto is in reaction against the #MeToo Movement, as well as the recent visit to The Master’s University, insisting upon changes to be made in order for them to retain their accreditation.

    I briefly looked through the signatories and one signed their name: Ima Racist, (from) Jesus wasa Socialist, Pa. I wonder if they’ll catch that.

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  114. TS00: Careful study will reveal that much has been misconstrued concerning scripture’s teaching on marriage and divorce, as well as the alleged patriarchy of the Calvinistas.

    Even Calvin recognized that this as a problem in his commentary on malachi…

    “This is the way in which you act; for ye destroy the bond of marriage, and ye afterwards deceive your miserable wives, and yet ye force them by your tyranny to continue at your houses, and thus ye torment your miserable wives, who might have enjoyed their freedom, if divorce had been granted them.” [237]”

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  115. Jerome: Apparently this Josh Buice has been discussed on TWW before

    A Hyper-Calvinist … a MacArthurite … follower of James White … Director of the G3 Conference of New Calvinist who’s-who. Whew!

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  116. One of the inner circle behind this anti social justice manifesto is ‘Sovereign Cruises’ owner Michael O’Fallon.

    Here are his fellow primary signers James Whita and Josh Buice featured on O’Fallon’s 2017 ‘Sovereign Luxury Experiences’ Reformation tour:

    http://sovereignexperiences.com/reftour/index.html

    Not surprising that a luxury travel operator takes this stance on social justice issues; poke around on his website and you see besides all the Calvinism Cruises he also runs ‘Billionaires and Barons’ tours. What?

    http://sovereignexperiences.com/billionaires.html

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  117. Jerome,

    No, if anything he is a “new Calvinist” rather than a proper one. His twitter account seems to confirm this as he mentions “dark roast” and has a picture of a Starbucks mug.

    Also interesting is that he is a “Dr”. He got his DMin from SBTS which is all of 32hrs long!

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  118. Also, can he legitimately be called a”Dr”?

    “PhD is a very extensive research degree.
    ThM is a lower-level research degree.
    DMin is a “practical” degree that does not at all compare to a PhD. It is in fact less rigorous than many Masters’ programs.

    I can’t think of any DMins that deserve the term “doctor,” and most are probably under the level of a ThM. They are useful if you just want doctor before your name, or if you want in-depth training in some skill area. An example would be SBTS’ DMin in expository preachingL (from the Puritan Board website)

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  119. TS00: Careful study will reveal that much has been misconstrued concerning scripture’s teaching on marriage and divorce

    Not just marriage and divorce. In my opinion the Bible has been misconstrued regarding other issues as well.

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  120. Lea: This comes out all the time in MRA kind of sites too and people who like to talk about ‘false’ accusations.

    Not having enough evidence to prosecute or convict does NOT equal a finding of false accusation.

    Lea, I see you are familiar with MRA sub-culture. When I first encountered the Christian Manosphere, I was in disbelief that such hatred could be spewed in the name of God. White, Christian males petrified and living in fear of being disenfranchised. My opinion for what it’s worth: I think they despise equality between men and women, and among all races of people. They are hanging on to their world for dear life with all the strength they can muster.

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  121. So let me see if I understand. On the one hand the law has been done away with, or so they say, but nevertheless Christians should be obeying the OT laws and teachings about divorce. In line with that thinking, what else should christians be snatching from the bonfire that burns the old law to ashes?

    IMO, it can’t be both ways.

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  122. Lea: Apologies for quoting one more thing:
    “We reject any teaching that encourages racial groups to view themselves as privileged oppressors or entitled victims of oppression. ”

    *sigh*

    ‘Entitled’ to what exactly? Fairness? Equality? Decency? Life? Somebodys mad and can’t write what they really want to say, but if some think of themselves as ‘privileged oppressors’ then maybe they actually are. And maybe if they are oppressing someone, said person is entitled to be irritated at it. And to call them out.

    Hmmm… I’m going to have to go back and see if I missed something from that Manifesto. Recently someone posted on a Calvinist Facebook site, an article about John MacArthur and his views on “no racism exists” in authentic, Evangelical churches. (Not the Deebs blog post.) A good deal of the responses were Calvinists expressing their opinion that there is no such thing as racism exists anymore.

    I decided to do a spin-off from that post asking the Calvinists on that site if they believed that sexism against women exists in authentic Christian churches. Since it was a poll, one of the options I gave was:
    Sexism is a modern construct of our society that I do not believe exists.
    I was astounded to see the support for this position. Some of the men’s responses to me were caustic, accusatory and denigrating. I touched a nerve and awakened a toxic underbelly that reared its ugly head – right straight at me.

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  123. TS00:

    There is no such thing as Once married, always married. A love relationship is always voluntary; meaning the covenant is broken when one person renigs on his promises, for whatever reason. God will not compel us to remain in relationship with him, nor can an unloved spouse be compelled to remain in an unhealthy marriage. (While it is true that God will never be unfaithful to us or cast us aside, he will not compel us to remain if we grow cold and desire to turn away from him.)

    What one must recognize is that the Calvinist view on the will is quite different from non-Calvinists. In their view, the will is not free, except to sin. Irresistible Grace is such that God overcomes their will so that there’s no such thing as choosing to love God. It is a kind of forced love. I have wondered that if in their monergistic theology, if they believe that they can obey Christ even after they have been enlightened. I have actually asked a number of Calvinists if Christ obeys for them. I think their monergistic theology informs their views on marriage.

    A man and woman must freely and willingly choose to love each other. Marriage isn’t monergistic, it’s synergistic. The two with a willing desire to work together as one. When it becomes forced, love is lacking.

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  124. Thersites: Likely true yet I felt the need to poke at the fire.An equally interesting discussion would be an articulation of reasons for not having the discussion.I’m still troubled by the lack of coverage over something that may have an enormous impact within that very old institution.

    The ladies at the Wartburg Watch have stated on more than one occasion that their calling and intention with this blog is to address sexual and all kinds of abuse within the Protestant, Evangelical churches. Not the Roman Catholic Church.

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  125. Jerome:
    One of the inner circle behind this anti social justice manifesto is ‘Sovereign Cruises’ owner Michael O’Fallon.

    Here are his fellow primary signers James Whita and Josh Buice featured on O’Fallon’s 2017 ‘Sovereign Luxury Experiences’ Reformation tour:

    http://sovereignexperiences.com/reftour/index.html

    Not surprising that a luxury travel operator takes this stance on social justice issues; poke around on his website and you see besides all the Calvinism Cruises he also runs ‘Billionaires and Barons’ tours.What?

    http://sovereignexperiences.com/billionaires.html

    I suppose using the adjective SOVEREIGN can justify all sorts of things.

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  126. Jerome:
    One of the inner circle behind this anti social justice manifesto is ‘Sovereign Cruises’ owner Michael O’Fallon.

    Here are his fellow primary signers James Whita and Josh Buice featured on O’Fallon’s 2017 ‘Sovereign Luxury Experiences’ Reformation tour:

    http://sovereignexperiences.com/reftour/index.html

    Not surprising that a luxury travel operator takes this stance on social justice issues; poke around on his website and you see besides all the Calvinism Cruises he also runs ‘Billionaires and Barons’ tours.What?

    http://sovereignexperiences.com/billionaires.html

    I suppose using the adjective “sovereign” can justify all sorts of things.

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  127. Darlene: Some of the men’s responses to me were caustic, accusatory and denigrating. I touched a nerve and awakened a toxic underbelly that reared its ugly head – right straight at me.

    It’s because they hate women. Especially ones that don’t stay in their place.

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  128. Lea: “We further affirm that God’s design for marriage is that one woman and one man live in a one-flesh, covenantal, sexual relationship until separated by death. ”

    They just want to make sure their own Widdle Wifeys can’t leave.
    Because if they could, they’d ditch Mr ManaGAWD in a microsecond.

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  129. okrapod: So let me see if I understand. On the one hand the law has been done away with, or so they say, but nevertheless Christians should be obeying the OT laws and teachings about divorce. In line with that thinking, what else should christians be snatching from the bonfire that burns the old law to ashes?

    Whatever is to MY personal advantage, of course.

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  130. Darlene: Lea, I see you are familiar with MRA sub-culture. When I first encountered the Christian Manosphere, I was in disbelief that such hatred could be spewed in the name of God.

    Believe it.
    “Nothing’s worse than a monster who thinks he’s right with God.”
    — Captain Mal Reynolds, Free Trader Serenity, Verse Cluster

    And “Just like fill-in-the-blank, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!” is NEVER a good sign.

    The impression I get from a lot of the mainstream Manosphere/MGTOWs/PUAs/MRAs is that they got burned BAD by a woman in their past and are on a Revenge Binge against anything & everything without a Y Chromosome. Is the Christianese Manosphere similar, or are they just Righteous haters who found a different target than Fred Phelps?

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  131. Max: A Hyper-Calvinist … a MacArthurite … follower of James White … Director of the G3 Conference of New Calvinist who’s-who.Whew!

    “A Carl Sagan
    Ronald Reagan
    San Diegan Pagan…”
    — local filksong from the Eighties (never was able to track the source)

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  132. Jerome:
    In the vein of the Danvers and Nashville Statements, MacArthur, others unveiled today an anti social justice manifesto:

    https://statementonsocialjustice.com

    Initial signatories are a virtual rogues gallery of Pyromaniacs, Founders, ARBCA personalities.Who else?A Duggar son-in-law, controversialist James White and daughter Summer…

    Urgh! How many more of these ex-Cathedra dogmas must the poor people in these congregations suffer?

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  133. Headless Unicorn Guy: The impression I get from a lot of the mainstream Manosphere/MGTOWs/PUAs/MRAs is that they got burned BAD by a woman in their past and are on a Revenge Binge against anything & everything without a Y Chromosome.

    Some of them didn’t even get burned, they either had a girl in middle school act like the child she was, or were rejected by a prom queen and are still mad about it, or they burned their own bridges and blamed women. A few are just frustrated. A few may have legitimately been cheated on and have decided to blame all women, despite that fact that men cheat more than women although the gap is closing.

    I don’t know what the ‘christian’ MRA’s are on about. I think they just want to control someone and are deeply selfish and lacking in empathy.

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  134. Lowlandseer: According to his own words he isn’t a hyper-Calvinist.

    I suppose it’s how one defines “hyper.” I’ve found that there are as many flavors of “Calvinist” in the New Calvinist movement as Oreo varieties.

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  135. Darlene: Sexism is a modern construct of our society that I do not believe exists.
    I was astounded to see the support for this position. Some of the men’s responses to me were caustic, accusatory and denigrating

    I will stay far far away from anyone who thinks and acts like this.

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  136. Bridget: I will stay far far away from anyone who thinks and acts like this.

    I will absolutely in real life. I have gotten pulled into reading the incel/MRA crazy online though. It’s cultish and easily disproven nonsense, mixed with a heavy dose of ‘women should be slaves’. It’s scary how much overlap there is with religious patriarchal folks, though. The influence is clear.

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  137. Headless Unicorn Guy:

    The impression I get from a lot of the mainstream Manosphere/MGTOWs/PUAs/MRAs is that they got burned BAD by a woman in their past and are on a Revenge Binge against anything & everything without a Y Chromosome. Is the Christianese Manosphere similar, or are they just Righteous haters who found a different target than Fred Phelps?

    I would say that the Christian Manosphere guys are even worse than the PUA’s and MRA’s because they are justifying their hatred and anger toward women in the name of Jesus Christ. And they make use of the same vulgar terms (lingo) towards women and take pride in it. They are blinded to Jesus’ second commandment.

    I would say their hatred and anger is more rooted in how the environment within many churches, as well as greater society, toward women and people of color, is changing and improving and they take umbrage at it. They despise the #Metoo movement and mock women’s stories of rape their attitude is mainly that women are asking for it anyway They love the old ways. I can imagine many of them feeling quite comfortable being slave masters in the Antebellum South.

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  138. Lea: I will absolutely in real life. I have gotten pulled into reading the incel/MRA crazy online though. It’s cultish and easily disproven nonsense, mixed with a heavy dose of ‘women should be slaves’. It’s scary how much overlap there is with religious patriarchal folks, though. The influence is clear.

    And I would say they feel emboldened due to the current political situation in our country. And hopeful that perhaps things might go their way.

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  139. Darlene: I would say that the Christian Manosphere guys are even worse than the PUA’s and MRA’s because they are justifying their hatred and anger toward women in the name of Jesus Christ.

    I completely agree!

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  140. Darlene: I would say that the Christian Manosphere guys are even worse than the PUA’s and MRA’s because they are justifying their hatred and anger toward women in the name of Jesus Christ.

    Elevating their hatred and anger to (literally) Cosmic Importance.
    Cosmic Justfication “In GAWD’s Name!” justifies anything.

    “Nothing’ worse than a monster who thinks he’s right with God.”
    — Captain Mal Reynolds, Free Trader Serenity

    (Yes there is, Captain. A monster who KNOWS he’s Right with God.)

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  141. Darlene: They love the old ways. I can imagine many of them feeling quite comfortable being slave masters in the Antebellum South.

    Remember that ManaGAWD from Moscow, Idaho.

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  142. Lea:
    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    And some of them just plain don’t see women as people. The ‘nicer’ ones might some them as children.

    Which adds a creepy pedo vibe to the PUAs’ “women are for one thing and one thing only”.

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  143. Lea: Some of them go all the way in that direction. Have you heard of Nathan Larson? *shudder*

    No, and from your context it sounds like “You don’t want to know”.
    Or “Just like Pedophilia, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”

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  144. brian,

    It makes sense, brian. After we left the church, our teens found far more comfort, empathy, understanding, support and just plain love than they had experienced in an entire lifetime from “believers” in the church.

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  145. refugee,

    To clarify, they experienced that love and kindness from unbelievers, agnostics, atheists, and what our former church so coyly called “pagans”. They see believers as hateful, cliquish, judgmental, unpleasant, willfully blind, self-righteous bigots.

    While they know a few loving Christians, I’m afraid they perceive them as misguided and not truly representative of the church—see “hateful, cliquish, etc.” above.

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  146. refugee,

    And I apologize for lumping all who say they are Christ-followers together in the same way our former hyper-reformed church lumped all the “non-elect” together. I realize it is offensive to people like the Deebs, and other believers who post in the comments. Sorry.

    But I am so very grieved that my kids will never listen to the gospel again with anything but suspicion and disgust.

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  147. Jerome:
    In the vein of the Danvers and Nashville Statements, MacArthur, others unveiled today an anti social justice manifesto:

    https://statementonsocialjustice.com

    Initial signatories are a virtual rogues gallery of Pyromaniacs, Founders, ARBCA personalities.Who else?A Duggar son-in-law, controversialist James White and daughter Summer…

    Authoritarians are quite well represented on the list.

    So were JMac’s remarks here a prelude to the “statement” coming out, do you think?

    (And, man, I read this statement. Reminded me strongly of the pomposity and hubris of previous statements. These people are really full of themselves.)

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  148. Muff Potter: Yeah it does.You (generic you) can do just about anything in their world (fundagelicalism, reformed or non, it makes no difference), pyramid schemes, portfolios that grind third world farmers into the dust, you name it.
    Just so long as you’re not having sex outside of marriage, you’re good to go.

    Just so long as you’re not having sex outside of their narrow definition of marriage, you’re good to go?

    (fixed that for you)

    …except you’re not. Because they worship the idol of the nuclear family. So singles are sub-human in their application of theology. A married couple with no kids have lower status.

    Actually, this part of the statement would make an effective rallying cry for the incel crowd. All you’d need as icing on their cake would be some statement to the effect that no woman has any right of refusal toward a man who proposes marriage. There’s no need for consent, and no such thing as consent, because it’s sin for a woman to say no to anything, in their twisted world.

    Thus, the incel dream… they could pick any woman and trap her into a lifelong relationship. And she could never say no. Sounds more like a fantasy, actually.

    And from what I’ve seen in the church culture, the woman would be required to keep herself physically attractive (diet, exercise, whatever’s necessary), while the husband could let himself go to pot.

    Yeah, I admit it. I’m jaded and cynical by the real-life church people I have known. There have been some good mixed in with the bad, but the bad have prevailed. I don’t know if they have the loudest voices, or if they’re the ones who hold the power, or if it’s only that the “good” aren’t so much chasing power and authority but just trying to follow Christ in good faith.

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  149. Darlene: Sexism is a modern construct of our society that I do not believe exists.
    I was astounded to see the support for this position. Some of the men’s responses to me were caustic, accusatory and denigrating. I touched a nerve and awakened a toxic underbelly that reared its ugly head – right straight at me.

    Well, of course. In their view, the subordination of women is not sexism, but the right and proper state of affairs.

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  150. Max: I suppose it’s how one defines “hyper.” I’ve found that there are as many flavors of “Calvinist” in the New Calvinist movement as Oreo varieties.

    ‘Hyper-Calvinist’ is simply the straw man that all Calvinists use when cornered by someone concerning the ugly little truth of their theology. ‘Oh no, we don’t believe that. We believe what scripture teaches. Only hyper-Calvinists believe that.’ Hyper-Calvinism is simply consistent Calvinism.

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  151. TS00: ‘Hyper-Calvinist’ is simply the straw man that all Calvinists use when cornered by someone concerning the ugly little truth of their theology.

    That’s pretty standard with them. I gave up arguing with many Calvinists because they resort to these tactics. Another common retort is “you’ve misunderstood Calvinism” but they don’t explain how or why!

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  152. TS00,

    I think Warfield’s definition is more accurate and more gracious.
    “No question of anything but, “I am a sinner, and all my hope is in God my Saviour!” Now this is Calvinism; not, note once more, something like Calvinism or an approach to Calvinism, but just Calvinism in its vital manifestation. Wherever this attitude of heart is found and is given expression in direct and unambiguous terms, there is Calvinism. Wherever this attitude of mind and heart is fallen away from, in however small a measure, there Calvinism has become impossible.

    For Calvinism, in this soteriological aspect of it, is just the perception and expression and defence of the utter dependence of the soul on the free grace of God for salvation. All its so-called hard features—its doctrine of original sin, yes, speak it right out, its doctrine of total depravity and the entire inability of the sinful will to good; its doctrine of election, or, to put it in the words everywhere spoken against, its doctrine of predestination and preterition, of reprobation itself—mean just this and nothing more. Calvinism will not play fast and loose with the free grace of God. It is set upon giving to God, and to God alone, the glory and all the glory of salvation. “

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  153. ZechZav: Another common retort is “you’ve misunderstood Calvinism”

    Many TWW commenters “understood Calvinism” enough to escape its snare! The jots and tittles of the New Calvinist “gospel” mess with your mind. Breaking free from this yoke for many is near impossible. As Al Mohler says “Where else are they going to go?” It’s sad to see so many young folks following this movement, but never experiencing freedom in Christ.

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  154. refugee: …except you’re not. Because they worship the idol of the nuclear family. So singles are sub-human in their application of theology. A married couple with no kids have lower status.

    Truth. They pay lip service to it, but they don’t mean it.

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  155. refugee: Thus, the incel dream… they could pick any woman and trap her into a lifelong relationship. And she could never say no.

    They aren’t far removed from this. I see a lot of overlap between this type of patriarchal religious thinking and incels. I think many of them are just sad they haven’t successfully trapped a woman. Many seem sad they can’t find a woman to abuse. Lot of toxic crazy in that community and the sad think is they are roping in men who were previously probably just lonely and feeding them lies until they believe it. It’s basically a cult.

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  156. refugee: Well, of course. In their view, the subordination of women is not sexism, but the right and proper state of affairs.

    Bingo.

    I can’t see ever going back to such a community.

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  157. Lea: Bingo.

    I can’t see ever going back to such a community.

    That’s because you don’t have a Y Chromosome.
    “Such a community” is always attractive to those who then Get To Hold The Whip.

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  158. refugee: Well, of course. In their view, the subordination of women is not sexism, but the right and proper state of affairs.

    Just like White Supremacy was a fundamental Law of Nature well into the 20th Century.
    (With “White” often defined to mean the definer’s own tribe and nobody else.)

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  159. refugee: Actually, this part of the statement would make an effective rallying cry for the incel crowd. All you’d need as icing on their cake would be some statement to the effect that no woman has any right of refusal toward a man who proposes marriage. There’s no need for consent, and no such thing as consent, because it’s sin for a woman to say no to anything, in their twisted world.

    Thus, the incel dream… they could pick any woman and trap her into a lifelong relationship. And she could never say no. Sounds more like a fantasy, actually.

    As someone who has only had one girlfriend in his entire life (and that ended bad), I can see the appeal of that. By the literal definition of the word, I am an InCel. Never married, only one girlfriend (see above), not very attractive to women because of early personality damage (emotional abuse atop retardation side effect of genius-level IQ).

    The difference between this InCel (me) and those InCels is they’re still stuck on “I Gotta Get Laid!!!” while I got myself a life that doesn’t depend on constantly getting laid by Perfect 10s throwing themselves on me. Granted, being alone while everyone around you pairs up is still a bummer, but I’ve been able to offset it in other areas. It’s when they tunnel-vision on “I Can’t Get Any!” as the definition of themselves that you get Santa Barbara Shooters like their “Saint Elliot”. (Who left behind an Internet estate of his high-sounding “Manifesto” plus hundreds to thousands of Selfies Selfies Selfies Selfies Selfies — that says it all.)

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  160. TS00: Hyper-Calvinism is simply consistent Calvinism.

    Or “honest Calvinism”, taking their theology to its logical end state.

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  161. refugee: But I am so very grieved that my kids will never listen to the gospel again with anything but suspicion and disgust.

    That may lessen over time, but it will be a slow process depending on how bad they got burned.

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  162. Headless Unicorn Guy: That’s because you don’t have a Y Chromosome.
    “Such a community” is always attractive to those who then Get To Hold The Whip.

    True.

    But also, some people simply don’t want to hold any whips, metaphorical or otherwise. Some are content to live with people as they are and would rather not control them. I personally am frustrated by people I can control and avoid them.

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  163. Headless Unicorn Guy: while I got myself a life that doesn’t depend on constantly getting laid by Perfect 10s throwing themselves on me.

    I appreciate that you noticed and noted that they really only want perfect women and girls. The only men I’ve heard talk about how superficial women are were being incredibly superficial themselves, which is sort of classic projection.

    Not to be all ‘there’s still time’ but I don’t believe it’s ever really too late to find connection. Maybe I’m just a rosy haired optimist 😉 It’s hard work sometimes, though. And nothing is guaranteed. And some people are terrible.

    Best to you, though.

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  164. Headless Unicorn Guy: It’s when they tunnel-vision on “I Can’t Get Any!” as the definition of themselves that you get Santa Barbara Shooters like their “Saint Elliot”.

    The funny thing about that guy is that he never asked women out, just expected to throw themselves at him because he had a car!

    To quote the great Shania:
    “So you got a car? That don’t impress me much.”

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  165. Headless Unicorn Guy: That may lessen over time, but it will be a slow process depending on how bad they got burned.

    I’m wondering now if the reason many people switch denominations and styles dramatically (from praise and worship bands to heavy liturgical with choirs and robes, for example) is because that bad association is lessened the further away you go.

    Sometimes you have a bad relationship with one kind of person and you go the opposite direction in hopes of avoiding the same problems. I see that with religion too and it does seem to work.

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  166. Lea: Bingo.

    I can’t see ever going back to such a community.

    Nor can I ever go back into the fundagelical bubble. As elastigirl has pointed out on several occasions, there are too many good people out there with common interests and life goals that you (generic you) can get to know and form lasting friendships with.

    Why go back to something that wears you down and causes you angst?

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  167. Muff Potter: Why go back to something that wears you down and causes you angst?

    Going to church should never be exhausting. Scripture says that “times of refreshing come from the presence of the Lord.” What does that say about the organized church “that wears you down and causes you angst”?

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  168. Max: “times of refreshing come from the presence of the Lord.”

    I find this much more often in other places. My last few years at a church it was absent.

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  169. Cathryn Suhovecky: Max: “times of refreshing come from the presence of the Lord.”

    I find this much more often in other places. My last few years at a church it was absent.

    I have found His presence when I read Scripture in the wee hours of the morning, when I pray with my grandson at bedtime, when sharing Christ with neighbors, during ‘chance’ encounters with other believers in public places, while thanking Him for His creation during fly-fishing trips … and only occasionally in church.

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  170. Pingback: If you were harmed, does that mean you'll blame God? And other questions for John MacArthur | | Here's the Joy

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