“I am drifting in and out of consciousness [after unknowingly being given a soda with a date rape drug in it]. I do not know where I am.The stranger is on top of me but I can’t move. I am telling him to stop and get off of me. I hear him grinding and mixing some concoction. He is forcing me to swallow more alcohol. It tastes like it has sand in it. He insists I drink more. I wake up choking and coughing. Everything goes dark.” Excerpt from Do You See Me?
The Master’s Seminary, which is headed by Dr. John MacArthur, published the following statement on its Facebook page on September 20, 2017.
What in the world were they addressing?
Two days earlier a blogger named Marci Preheim published a post entitled Do You See Me?
Dee and I are co-writing this post, and we were absolutely stunned by what we read on Marci’s website. She told the horrific story of a female student named “Jane” (not her real name) who was attending The Master’s College (TMC) (we believe it became a university just last year). Here is a synopsis of Jane’s story.
Jane was a junior at TMC, and just before she was to go home for spring break, she fell and suffered a concussion. The doctor told her to take it easy, so she remained on campus to rest and catch up on homework. She was invited by some students from The Master’s Seminary (and their girlfriends) to go to a play and then to dinner. There was a total of four guys, and Jane knew three of them. The ‘stranger’ in the group whom she did not know (Jane might have been introduced to him once), offered to buy her a soda, and she found it to be a kind gesture. About thirty minutes later Jane started feeling foggy and slurring her words. Then she realized she couldn’t move her legs. Her friends started laughing because she was acting funny. Then Jane remembered that she had a concussion the day before and decided it would be best for her to go back to her dorm room to rest. The seminary students and their girlfriends urged the stranger to take her to her dorm room. He had to carry her out of the restaurant, and apparently, no one found that odd. Then Jane blacked out.
Marci, who is sharing Jane’s testimony, explains what happens next (see excerpt from her Do You See Me? post below):
I am drifting in and out of consciousness. I do not know where I am. The stranger is on top of me but I can’t move. I am telling him to stop and get off of me. I hear him grinding and mixing some concoction. He is forcing me to swallow more alcohol. It tastes like it has sand in it. He insists I drink more. I wake up choking and coughing. Everything goes dark.
I am awake again and it’s morning, or early afternoon. I can’t tell. I’m still in this strange bed. The stranger is carrying me to the living room where the same friends and seminary students are drinking beer and watching a movie. The stranger spills a beer on me because I can’t hold it right. I don’t want beer. I have not had food or water in some time but I cannot articulate this. Everyone is still laughing at me.
Now I’m in a strange bar. I can’t see clearly but it seems the same group of people are here along with the stranger. I look down and wonder where this dress that I’m wearing and these shoes came from. I wear a size ten and a half shoe—it’s not like I can borrow shoes from just anyone. I find out the stranger bought them and put them on me. All I can think about is that the school would not approve of these clothes or being in a bar. I’m not a rule breaker. I don’t want to get in trouble. The stranger puts a straw up to my mouth and insists that I drink. I do but it is alcohol and again, I just want some water. He is still trying to get me to drink, but I refuse. I am sliding out of the booth and onto the dirty floor but I can’t stop myself. The stranger and everyone else is still laughing. The bartender tells us to leave and take me home.
My faculties are starting to come back and I begin to understand that I have spent several days and nights in this fog. I am angry that I have been left in the care of a stranger, and am starting to think my friends don’t care about me at all. I demand to go back to my dorm but I must sound funny because they are still laughing at me. Somehow, someone took me home, or maybe I drove myself. I wake up a day and a half later.
My head is starting to clear now. I know I’ve been raped…
Jane finally made it back to her dorm room, and her head started to clear. She went to the police, and they did a rape kit and questioned her. Then, she returned home to be with her family and the school told her she could return and they would help her with counseling. She was told to meet with Rick Holland, who was the college pastor at John MacArthur’s church, which is affiliated with TMC and TMS. Rick interrogated her and asked some very inappropriate questions, such as:
Where did he touch you? Where else did he touch you? What exactly did he do? How long did he do that? What were you wearing? Are you dating him? Did he turn you on?
During his meeting with Jane, Rick Holland left the room to go and consult with John MacArthur. Then he came back with the ruling (see below):
Rick tells me that I need to be disciplined for doing drugs, drinking alcohol and almost dancing. He said the consequence for breaking the rules is that I will be kicked out of the college. He is angry at me for going to the police and the doctor. I should have let the church handle this without outside interference. He tells me not to tell anyone else, not my fellow classmates, not my teachers, not anyone at church.
“You are ruining that young man’s life!” He says.
He tells me I have to go to the police and drop the charges or I will be brought in front of the church to be disciplined. I don’t drop the charges. Not that it matters. The police interviewed my rapist and all the “friends” who were there and ruled it a “he-said, she-said” incident that can’t be proven either way.
After all of this happened, Jane finally got to go home with her parents for a few days. While there, she received a phone call from Rick Holland. He told Jane that in order for her to finish her senior year at TMC, she must agree to certain stipulations. He asked her to return campus and come to his office, which she agreed to do.
Here is the rest of Jane’s testimony from Marci’s Do You See Me Now? post.
I am standing outside the door to Rick’s office. I take a deep breath and feel confident that I am strong enough to do whatever it is that he asks me to do. I open the door and am shocked to see the stranger sitting there. I am starting to shake and sweat. Rick asks me to sit down by my rapist. Rick speaks for the rapist.
“He has admitted to everything he has done. He has acknowledged his sin and that this relationship was not consensual and he has repented. Look at him, he is crying.”
I don’t want to look at him but I do. I feel panicked sitting this close to him. I am wondering why I have to be present if it has become clear that I am innocent. Why wasn’t I immediately reinstated in school?
“Now it is your turn to apologize.”
I am not hearing right. I think that Rick Holland has just asked me to apologize to my rapist.
“Apologize for what?” I ask.
Rick says something about apologizing for the dress I was wearing at the bar and for drinking alcohol. He says I caused this young man to stumble, and he is incensed that I have not dropped the charges with the police. He says he has been talking to Joe and Sandra and my RD and they all say that my story keeps changing. I wonder why they are all allowed to talk about it but I am not. If I am to be reinstated in the school I must agree to weekly counseling with Rick and the stranger. I am told that the stranger and I have committed this sin together and therefore we must work through it together. I must agree to sit next to the stranger in church every week.
I don’t know where to begin. Do I start with the fact that I didn’t put that dress on or how my story isn’t changing, I am just remembering more things? I feel confused and angry. I am yelling. I hear more accusations coming out of Rick’s mouth. I am not submissive. I don’t trust the men that God has put over me. I am rebellious. He is angry and I cannot keep up with all of the attacks on my character that are flying out of his mouth. I am kicked out of school. I have less than twenty-four hours to get my things out of my room and get out. If I show up on campus, I will be arrested. They are changing my three years of earned college credits from A’s to F’s. I have flunked out of college.
It is 2008. I am still getting Facebook messages and emails from people I know at Master’s College calling me to repentance. They are rebuking me and quoting Scriptures about immorality and fornication. I know the narrative now. They have been told that I was sleeping around and was kicked out for drinking and carousing. They know my character and yet still assume it is true. Only one person from that whole community believes me—my roommate from Junior year.
It is 2017. I have told a few people over the years about what happened to me, but mostly I want to move on and live my life and forget. I can’t forget. I am trying to get my graduate degree, but on paper I failed three years of college and flunked out. I had to relive this nightmare trying to get my undergraduate Psychology degree, and now again applying for graduate school. Every time I work with rape victims, I relive my own trauma. I realize that I cannot move on until I bring this darkness into the light—even if it helps just one person—even if that person is me.
I am 32 years old and I am taking my life back. My name is Jane. Do you see me?
It is important to understand that Joe Keller from The Master’s College was handling the issues of discipline regarding TMC’s contention that she had broken school policy by doing drugs, etc., despite being unconscious. (!!) This was handled in separate, clandestine meetings on multiple occasions in Joe Keller’s office.
Now that you’ve read what happened to Jane, let’s go back to the statement just released via Facebook by The Master’s Seminary. We want to call attention to this part of the statement:
According to our initial internal inquiry and review of the available records, we believe the blog article is plainly incorrect, a reality we have verified with the police reports on record.
Dee and I are privy to the police report, which clearly supports Jane’s account of what happened.
Due to some question about the legality of posting the entire California police report, we are posting screen shots of relevant portions of the report. The names of the victim and the alleged assailant have been removed. Please note the following information.
(1) There was a rape kit done at a local hospital.
(2) The police were called to collect the evidence and to take a statement at the hospital.
(3) There was evidence collected to confirm that sexual activity has occurred.
Screen Shots from the Police Report
How can TMS and TMU officials honestly say, after reviewing the police records on record, that the blog article is ‘plainly incorrect’ ???
Assessment regarding the confirmed visit to the hospital and police report
We do not know how many readers have ever been present when a rape kit is employed and the police are called. Despite the professional demeanor of those involved, it is a humiliating experience. Those who go through the process are willingly submitting to invasive physical collection of evidence and invasive questioning of the alleged rape, which means repeating what happened over and over again. We believe that anyone who goes through this process is highly likely to have been so traumatized by a sexual encounter that they are willing to endure the indignities of the after process.
Even TMU admits there was a police report.
There is a witness to Jane Doe’s emotional state as well as her testimony after the alleged rape
Today, a witness who can corroborate some of Jane’s story came forward to Julie Anne Smith. (Yay JA!) For now, this person is anonymous but is willing to speak and give her name if it becomes necessary.
Dee talked to Jane Doe on two occasions and the following are some of the things that were discussed
(1) Allegations of abusive counseling techniques.
Jane chose to attend TMC because they had a biblical counseling program. Her goal was to go on and get postgraduate degrees in this field. After the shock of the drug rape wore off, she believed that she would get the best counseling available. So, when she allegedly met with Rick Holland who was to counsel her, she decided to answer every question that she was asked because she thought that he would know what he was doing. Sadly, some of those question were incredibly invasive and, in my opinion, downright sickening. She was asked about how she had dressed that evening. However, the one that takes the cake is that she was allegedly asked if she “had an orgasm”.
I had to pause to take a deep breath. For those of you who are not educated in physiological reactions, having an orgasm is a biological response to stimulation and can occur in any sort of traumatic sexual encounter for both males and females. If this sort of questioning occurred, then it is abusive and the counselor is doing unbelievable harm to the individual.
I left a message for Rick Holland on his church voice mail asking him about his counseling of Jane. At this point, I have not received a response.
Here is a comment received by Jane from a supposed Master’s student. In this comment you will see more misinformation. They are apparently taught to believe that there is no drug that can make a person sin – not even a date rape drug. Here is a portion of an email that Jane received. It relays a conversation between the writer and another person.
2. Did TMU change all of her grades for three years of work to failing grades? because they decided she was a sinner?
Jane told me that she had been a very good student in all of her classes. The school allegedly changed her grades after she was forced to leave the school. It took her 8 years to complete a 4 year degree.
Here is Jane’s assigned list of tasks given to her on April 27. She was to be gone!
Why is ‘Jane’ speaking out now and what does she want?
Jane asked me (Dee) to say that she is not doing this to cause trouble. She is doing this so that other people who have or will experience the same thing will know they are not alone. She is hoping that her story will cause TMU and other universities and churches to change how they approach victims of rape and assault.
The terrible combination of a date rape drug, forced consumption of alcohol, and a concussion.
Jane was asked to go out with seminary students, their girlfriends and an individual whom she believed was a roommate of one of the seminary students. Remember, at this point, she was enamored of Master’s University and the Seminary. She had a naïve view that Master’s Seminary students were the epitome of Christian students, and she totally trusted them. She had no intention of drinking, which is mentioned in her narrative.
Not to brag or anything but I hang out with the smart crowd, and the smart crowd hangs out with the seminary students from The Master’s Seminary. They invite me to go to a play in town and then to dinner. I probably shouldn’t but it’s an approved outing as some of the seminary guys are bringing their girlfriends, and of course there will be no drinking, drugs, or dancing. We all had to sign a contract that we would not do those three things while attending Masters. It doesn’t bother me. I don’t drink or do drugs anyway.
Four of the seminary students live together and I know three of them. The fourth, a stranger who I have met maybe once, sits by me at dinner and asks if he can get me a soda. I thank him and say yes, but about a half an hour later I start to feel foggy.
While she was under the influence of this drug, she was brought to a bar. Let me say this loud and clear. No matter what the rules are at TMU, Jane is not responsible for anything that happened after she was given that drugged drink. In fact, she may not have been responsible before it happened if she had been diagnosed with a concussion. Anyone who judges someone as guilty under these circumstances is either stupid, mean, or both.
Did the TMU counselors remember the concussion?
This is quite important! Jane had a medical condition, which could have added to her confusion. Here is the pertinent excerpt from Jane’s story.
Spring break starts tomorrow. I was going to go home today but last night I hit my head and suffered a concussion. The doctor said I need to take it easy so I decide to stay on campus and catch up on rest and homework
Did any of these *ace* counselors consider getting her thoroughly examined for a concussion by a medical professional? Or does brain injury get ignored since biblical counseling loves to focus on sin? If Jane was drugged on top of a concussion, she was at high risk of a serious medical event. But, she may have stepped foot into a bar while drugged, and that was far more important to these boyz.
TMU says this guy wasn’t a student, but Rick Holland involved him in the counseling process?? We say BALONEY!!
TMU makes a big deal that the alleged rapist was never a student at TMU or TMS. That is irrelevant. She assumed he was since he was buddy buddy with several *glorious* seminary students.
But wait, something is wrong. If the alleged rapist wasn’t a student, then why did Rick Holland involve him in the counseling of Jane? As Shakespeare’s character Marcellus declared in Hamlet:
“Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.”
Here are statements from Jane’s counseling sessions with Rick Holland, which are included in the Do You See Me? post.
“You are ruining that young man’s life!” He (Rick) says.
…I’m home with my parents now. I receive a call from Rick Holland. There are a few stipulations that I must agree to if I want to finish my senior year at The Master’s College. I plan to do whatever they tell me to do so I can get my degree and get out of there. He asks me to come in and meet with him.
I am standing outside the door to Rick’s office. I take a deep breath and feel confident that I am strong enough to do whatever it is that he asks me to do. I open the door and am shocked to see the stranger sitting there. I am starting to shake and sweat. Rick asks me to sit down by my rapist. Rick speaks for the rapist.
“He has admitted to everything he has done. He has acknowledged his sin and that this relationship was not consensual and he has repented. Look at him, he is crying.”
I don’t want to look at him but I do. I feel panicked sitting this close to him. I am wondering why I have to be present if it has become clear that I am innocent. Why wasn’t I immediately reinstated in school?
“Now it is your turn to apologize.”
I am not hearing right. I think that Rick Holland has just asked me to apologize to my rapist.
“Apologize for what?” I ask.
Rick says something about apologizing for the dress I was wearing at the bar and for drinking alcohol. He says I caused this young man to stumble, and he is incensed that I have not dropped the charges with the police. He says he has been talking to Joe and Sandra and my RD and they all say that my story keeps changing. I wonder why they are all allowed to talk about it but I am not. If I am to be reinstated in the school I must agree to weekly counseling with Rick and the stranger. I am told that the stranger and I have committed this sin together and therefore we must work through it together. I must agree to sit next to the stranger in church every week.
*** READERS: What do you think about this non-student that TMU’s Rick Holland ‘counseled’? ***
The lack of love by TMU: they are raising up legalists
As I (Dee) have mentioned, I am taking a seminary course on pastoral leadership given by a conservative seminary. Interestingly, this seminary majors on kindness and love. In the class, stories of abusive church tactics are analyzed and discussed. There really are some good guys out there, folks.
The statement from TMU doesn’t demonstrate one little bit of kindness and love. As I review Jane’s statement, which I believe, I see an emphasis on rules and a blatant disregard for the real problem: a good student who loved Master’s was raped and needed help, not condemnation. Somehow, i do not believe Jesus would be concerned about what she wore and whether or not she had an orgasm in the midst of a violent act. I wonder why TMU believes that this is an appropriate example of biblical counseling.
Given the concussion, date rape drug, visit to the hospital and rape kit, along with the ridiculous counseling approach, we believe the victim might want to explore a legal remedy.
No doubt there will be more information forthcoming, so we will definitely keep you posted.
We have known of Rick Holland the entire time we have been blogging. Rick was very involved in planning all of the Resolved Conferences that took place from 2005 until 2012.
I (Deb) will never forget watching the 2009 “Resolved” Conference trailer right around the time we launched TWW (on March 19, 2009). It was terribly upsetting to me, so much so that I later wrote a post about it entitled The Scream of the Damned and the Last Straw.
Take a look (Rick Holland appears at the 3 minute mark).
Several years ago we learned that Rick Holland and his family were leaving California and moving to the Midwest so Rick could pastor a church there. Now that Jane’s story has surfaced, it leaves us wondering what REALLY happened during Rick’s counseling sessions with students at TMU. Perhaps others will come forward with their testimonies…
I read Jane’s letter. Absolutely heartbreaking! Jane, if you are reading here at TWW, I want to let you know: I see you! Furthermore, I BELIEVE you.
Second?
@ Darlene: DITTO!
Thank you Dee and Deb!
May I ask you — as an Australian — to edit your post a wee bit so that people who live outside of America are not confused by the way you have given dates in your post.
As you probably know, the USA writes the date numerically by puting the month then the date then the year— MM/DD/YYYY
But in places like Australia and the UK, dates are written numerically as DD/MM/YYYY
The only way to make a date crystal clear to all readers around the world is to write the month in letters. For example: 29 April 2016. Or: April 29, 2016.
In your post you say “Here is her assigned list of tasks given to her on 4/27.”
Would you be able to edit that to make the date crystal clear to all your readers? Thanks!
@ Barbara Roberts:
The sentence now reads:
Hoping this is what you were requesting. 🙂
6
Jane is ruining that young man’s life? That is the kicker for me. That is so totally not Christian! He is responsible for his own sins!! That whole “instant forgiveness” thing is diabolical. And blame the victim… Grrr… Jane, I believe you, and encourage you to do whatever is necessary to learn to fully live into your innocence in this situation. You are not “playing the victim” You ARE a victim, not only of that rapist, but also of some serious spiritual abuse. I pray that God will help you know God’s great love and care and God’s total non-judgment. You are a great treasure to God.
To Jane:
As an adult survivor of child sexual abuse, I more than believe you!! This was so NOT what I was taught as a student at Philadelphia College of Bible, and am so sorry you were put through this. I pray that you get the justice you seek, but above all the healing you need.
I believe Jane.
Bunny wrote:
So do I and lots of other people.
I really wish Dee and Deb would tell everyone to stop forcing and wanting rape victims to hang out with their rapist. This is so sick and heartless. I know the man who repeatedly raped me as a little girl would love to be able to confront and bully me. Poor rapist need their bottoms kissed.
If you tell or want a rape victim to be in the same room with their rapist you are vile and do not hate rape.
Dear Jane, I am so sorry. I have had toxic experiences with Christians over rape, my own misogynistic mother bullied me and coddled my rapist. She did not care and wanted me to keep my mouth shut about it.
As someone who was born and raised in conservative Christianity, I do not believe most Christians hate rape. They consistently prove they hate rape victims with a bloody passion.
As someone who was born and raised in conservative Christianity I would never let my children alone with any Christian.
Jane thank you for telling your story.
“Rick says something about apologizing for the dress I was wearing at the bar and for drinking alcohol. He says I caused this young man to stumble,”
I cannot comprehend such an attitude exists in today’s culture. Beside the enormous lack of judgement and simple compassion it is absurd to think she “caused this young man to stumble” when the act was so premeditated. Oh I get it, everyone carries around a date rape drug. How stupid do you have to be to get to this level of responsibility at The Masters College?
This makes me so mad I could spit nails. These despicable bullies!!!!!
The comment about that tries to correlate hypnotism with drugs is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard. Maybe hypnotism can’t make you unconscious or barely conscious, but being drugged certainly can. Do they believe that someone having surgery who is raped has consensual sex?
A litmus test for leaders and institutions that hang out their shingle as Christian:
How do you respond to an alleged assault by a bro?
– availing of forensics and science?
– ethics and the law?
– medical examiners and trained investigators?
– validation of evidence?
Thank you, Jane, for sharing your story for the benefit of those who seek truth. God bless you.
How can the college change Jane’s grades? She paid for the classes, completed the work and received the grades; then the college came along at a later date and changed her grades? I am not a lawyer, but it seems like such an action would be illegal.
Gail L Cain wrote:
I have a feeling that there will be lawyers who are asking the same question.
As far as the “non-student”, it could have very well been someone from Grace, since they sent her to Holland instead of someone at the school. If she was a biblical counseling major, there were probably more qualified professors to counsel her than Holland. But they sent her out of the school to the church to be counseled “together” by a college pastor and with her rapist.
I know that the school is trying to play “She’s totally lying about everything because he wasn’t a student”, but the article repeated several times that he was a stranger to her. And Dee is right, whether or not he was a student is irrelevant, because she told her story to share how Masters handled the situation. The police were in charge of dealing with him.
She was kidnapped, drugged, and raped. She reported the rape to the police. She reported the rape to the school, which then heavily disciplined her for being kidnapped, drugged, and raped. Her life was ruined. His was probably not.
Masters could have lived up to the name “Grace” and chose to say they were astounded by the allegations, would conduct a full investigation, and make sure it never happened again. Instead, this week they claimed she was lying and the police report confirmed that. They also had an enormous discrepancy in their rebuttal which claimed they couldn’t respond to an anonymous person, but they had seen the police report. They hinted they would legally pursue anyone who talked about it online.
They have failed in every way possible and still are not taking responsibility.
One or two people of my acquaintance were also asked if they experienced orgasm while being sadistically raped. This came from the nouthetic (“Biblical”) counselor, of course.
I’ve talked with someone who knew Jane back at TMU and heard evidence of Jane’s assault at the time.
Jane, I’m sure you’ve reached a point in your healing where you have no doubts that it was not your fault. But I just want to add my voice to the chorus and say it again. It was not your fault. In any way. I pray that you’ve found complete healing, or will find it. Thank you so much for speaking out.
I was going to say something, but I know my comment will be taken down. So, here are some sanitized thoughts:
1) it is common knowledge that fear and arousal can get confused during rape
2) no one should have to repent for being raped
3) no one should be kicked out of school for being drugged
4) I hope to God (no blaspheming here, I am invoking the Lord’s name for a good reason) that her life brings no more suffering. This entire circus has caused enough damage to last a lifetime.
5) May the other students be expelled (in my opinion, it seems to me that they invited a concussion stricken girl on purpose. How else can you explain how they were so casual about breaking the rules, laughing at her, encouraging the single guy to take her away… seriously, that smells off.
Question: from where did the information come that she was asked about having an orgasm? I missed that in the article.
Thank you for bringing attention to this.
Absolutely horrible. How could they? Jane, this should not have happened & I'm really really sorry. Drink & drugs on top of a concussion is an horrific combination, & I just can't believe her 'friends' would let her be carried out by someone who barely knows her. This could easily have been fatal.
What is this utter crap with letting an admitted rapist escape prosecution? The only thing that makes sense for me is that the guy who let him sit there & say that to her has frequent urges to rape so just doesn't see it as the out-of-the-ordinary terrible thing it is. Otherwise it would seem as shocking to him as it should be.
____
Resolved: “Living An Evil 501(c)3 Pastoral Lie?”
hmmm…
“He has admitted to everything he has done. He has acknowledged his sin and that this relationship was not consensual and he has repented. Look at him, he is crying…” -Rick Holland
So What?
Anyone who accuses ‘Jane’ of lying may want to reconsider as she has police reports, printed emails, and plenty of evidence. Somehow, Jane had the presence of mind to print and keep all of these papers all of these eleven long years…
The ‘cover-up’ actions of Masters to destroy this woman’s life and three years of educational achievements obviously came with the full support and determination of Rick Holland and John MacArthur.
SKreeeeeeeetch!
“She was kidnapped, drugged, and raped. She reported the rape to the police. She reported the rape to the school, which then heavily disciplined her for being kidnapped, drugged, and raped. Her life was ruined…” -Ishy
Something is really wrong with this picture. It’s more than past time to examine closely at how these prominent religious leaders deal/dealt with sexual assault and abuse claims and be transparent. kidnapped/Rape victims like ‘Jane’ should not be scared into eleven years of frightened silence, nor should they have been told repeatedly to repent and meet continually with the individual that drugged, carried her away against her will, assaulted and repeatedly sexually abused her, then this individual attempted by various nefarious means to repeatedly cover-up his crime.
“You can’t keep the lid on it…” -John MacArthur (1)
Costly repercussions are on the horizon for this 501(c)3 religious educational institution?
Bump
Time for reparations?
Could b.
Masters, “Now it is your turn to apologize…”
Sòpy
___
(1) John MacArthur: How To Deal With Private Or Hidden Sins.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mQkkwzCaddc
Rick Holland: A Biblical Strategy For Fighting Sexual Sin.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IYapXfrRgio
R U Mad as Hell?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwMVMbmQBug
🙁
—
ishy wrote:
ishy, their use of grace is not the same as the way many others would use the word grace. For them, it’s related to their doctrine of choice: Calvinism.
@ ishy:
This is more or less the conclusion I came to. I once attended the college group at GCC, by “force” (they required all first year students to go during the week of welcome; I never would have gone otherwise). The college group had hundreds of college and seminary students in it. It would be really easy to attend that group and not know half of the people there every week.
– Rick Holland brought the man into a counseling session. Either he had the cooperation of the roommates, or, more likely, the rapist attended the church, and possibly the college group, and may have known some of the leadership involved.
– Jane’s integrity is called into question because she said he was a student. Even if she had met him once, if he was living with three seminary students, she probably assumed he was also one. He may have also lied about it, given his obviously outstanding moral fiber, to gain her trust.
I do not doubt the situation was mishandled, because I know someone personally who reported an attempted assault on the college campus, and yet they kept the person who attempted assault on campus for several more years, knowing he was a risk to students. This happened about two years before Jane’s rape.
I have seen people say that they know Jane publicly. I’ve also had people contact me telling me they know Jane. What’s interesting is as I have questioned them further, it turns out that they did not have the correct rape story. Unless you are absolutely positive, please do not say you know Jane. She has remained private for a reason. You could be referring to another rape case.
. . . . and that should make us even more concerned. There is more than one “Jane” story.
@ Julie Anne:
I’m a Calvinist and I disagree with how they handled this. Theology doesn’t make someone a douchebag. Pride and self-righteousness do, and pride and self-righteousness transcend all theological boundaries.
Stunned. Maybe I should not be surprised by these people but still absolutely stunned.
Pray that Jane Doe receives justice and peace.
From what I have seen, Rick Holland is quite protective of C.J.Mahaney. It appears we now know why.
This is a really sad story and even sadder if this supposed Christian school is trying to suppress the truth of what really occurred. It sure sounds like what they are doing. They are more concerned with their reputation than the truth.
@ Barbara Roberts:
*In case you still have confusion on the dates of the events in question, allow me to help with some confusing items in the police report and Jane’s task list:
Date and time of occurrence: March 10, 2006 at 9:00 pm to March 11, 2006 at 2:00 pm (17 hours total).
Date and time reported to the police: March 15, 2:40 pm.
1) Be out of the dorms by 8:00 am April 28.
2) There is no April 31, so I would think he meant April 30.
I understand your confusion, sometimes when a European colleague types a date of 27/4, I wonder what the 27th month of the year is.**
* begin sarcasm
** end sarcasm
Barbara, I greatly respect your work. I thought you would have a more profound reply on this serious post than nitpicking how things are dated.
dee wrote:
What happened to Jane is horrifying. How the pastors and college treated her made it even worse. She deserves justice. I hope and pray that she has ample funding and stellar attorneys on her side if she’s planning on a fight with TMU and GCC.
Don’t be surprised when they double down on their denials. Those folks are experts at brainwashing and manipulation. They have lawyers, too – along with many members with deep pockets who are dedicated to protecting their brand. They will do anything to defend their church and schools against those whom they perceive to be unbelievers and secular powers in the hands of S***n.
At the core of the school’s and the church’s response to this crime is their misogynistic beliefs and teachings regarding women and girls. Unless you’ve been on the inside of this particular church culture you can’t fully understand just how ungodly and dangerous it is. Anyone who escapes and tries to warn others is shunned as a gossip and a slanderer. You from GCC who are reading this, you know what I’m talking about.
This church is not of Almighty God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Their god is their man made and man centered doctrine. They are wolves in the Shepherd’s fold, and they are ravaging His lambs.
Jane I see you and I believe you. The Master’s Seminary response is a crock. They contradict (expose) themselves in their response giving them zero credibility not that they had any credibility anyway. They can’t say they are limited due to you being anonymous and then turnaround and say they read the police report and declare the rapist was not a student. Rick Holland is a pervert or he would not have asked you those things. I am so sorry you had to go through this experience. You are a courageous woman to bring this to light. As others have said, you indeed are a Pastor. You are caring for His daughters, protecting them from wolves in sheeps’ clothing. I’m also sorry for the vicious email email you received suggesting you consented, that person is vicious and/or an idiot. As my sister pointed out to me date rape drugs are anesthetics. I wonder if the email author has ever had surgery and been put under? And if so I wonder what all he/she might have consented to. Sadly, people have been raped while under anesthesia. I’ve thankfully only been put under to have teeth pulled as a teenager. They could have asked me anything or done anything to me and I could not have consented. I was completely asleep. Of course you can be drugged and not consent!
What a horrible thing to go through and it still has not ended. I am so sorry for this.
If you don’t mind I wanted to ask some questions:
1. Where the ‘seminary men’ kicked out?
2. Did these ‘seminary men’ see that Jane was not behaving right BEFORE any (forced) alcohol consumption?
3. Where was Jane’s police-father in this? Why wasn’t he at the Holland interview?
4. Per article, the ‘raptist’ admitted before Holland it was NOT consensual. How is that not deemed rape? Of COURSE that is rape! The man admitted it!
5. Was any of these Holland meetings recorded?
6. and… a comment- The question supposedly asked by Holland as to her “reponse” to this abuser was BEYOND out of line and could be called “sexual harassment”. This would be a TRAP to prove guilt.
Thank you for your answers. Praying.
It sounds as if the “master” at The Masters College is Johnny Mac. Not that Jesus guy. So many elements of this brand of evangelicalism are… Not like Jesus.
(typo correct to 1. “WERE”)
a couple of more questions:
7. Why is it such a huge thing in GCC’s mind to pursue reconciliation with an offender/raptist? Did Paul reconcile with all sinners? ‘preach the gospel, yes but NO reconciliation.
8. Oh.. and IF Jane had a concussion:
a. is there a doctor’s report for this
b. if she was supposed to “rest and do homework” WHY did she decide to go out with these ‘friends’?
Thanks again for your response.
(typo correct to 1. "WERE") a couple of more questions: 7. Why is it such a huge thing in GCC's mind to pursue reconciliation with an offender/raptist? Did Paul reconcile with all sinners? 'preach the gospel, yes but NO reconciliation. 8. Oh.. and IF Jane had a concussion: a. is there a doctor's report for this b. if she was supposed to "rest and do homework" WHY did she decide to go out with these 'friends'? Thanks again for your response.
Beakerj wrote:
Beaker: I’m going with the very real possibility that the college pastor who counseled Jane didn’t believe it was a rape, but rather consentual. Or, due to what he perceived as mitigating circumstances – i.e.: Jane’s outfit – it wasn’t all that bad or traumatic. I hate to say this, but the pastor/counselor may have thought Jane asked for it. The poor guy just couldn’t control himself. It’s called sin leveling.
Julie Anne wrote:
Grace isn’t actually New Calvinist. They are their own breed of Calvinism, as far as I can tell.
But even in Calvinism, “grace” means “unmerited favor”. They just believe God picks and chooses who gets that favor. They could have chosen to be like God and been magnanimous. And in fact, this all would probably go much better for them than the scandal it has become. I think it would be in their favor, as well.
But, if they are going to defend themselves and allow their professors and students to attack everyone online about it, then they look much worse.
GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:
From those I’ve known at Grace and TMU, I don’t think Mac does very much at all with the running of things. Reportedly, he stays in his office all day and studies and writes. The person who told him about it could have lied about what Jane reported. They could have not told him about the police report, thinking they knew the real “truth”. And the perpetrator’s friends surely lied about their involvement, saying it was all her–and that’s why they want to tell everyone she lied.
@ ishy:
Well, then the dear leader has made the grave and consequential decision of surrounding himself with enablers and fabricators. Therefore, does that throw a shade on the dear leader’s teaching, that he labors with in his self-created bubble?
Regarding slander and gossip, who is guilty here, and in the Wheaton case, of slander? (Given the evidence, police reports, witnesses, etc.)
ishy wrote:
Well, that’s interesting. Didn’t know that, but it sounds like JMac. Still, he sets the tone and to some degree, defines the culture. I guess my question is, “Who is the Master?” Because I don’t think it’s Jesus.
Is she has the record of her grades each semester from her grade report, but the transcript says something different, this is certainly reason alone for legal action, not to mention the other horrible stuf, which has me speechless and shocked, but not as socked as I should be. I’m reading too much of this kind of stuff and hearing too much from other people suddenly coming my way now that I’ve opened my eyes to the corruption calling itself the church. I know good guys are out there. I just wish they were easier to find for Jane and too many others.
GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:
Exactly.
I’m so mad reading this! Dee! Deb! I spoke to Mr Haney! He’s not an attorney but a professional investigator. He stated Mr Holland was not involved in this. The documents state otherwise. He said there was no way MacArthur could have been there because of the location and the time of week and year, that he would not be on campus. He stated there are no witnesses to coroberate her story and he’s wanting to find them to get her side! He stated that the police reports if you posted them well if jane did that they could be changed. He stated that why would she post her side but I pointed out TMS did for which he had no answer for that one. I’m fuming TMS needs their butts sued she needs an attorney. Also he made the point that there was no way they could have changed her grades due to the process it takes to change them. He said she wasn’t kicked out of the school. All lies, why am I not surprised. Don’t get me started on their counseling oh dear Lord what a nightmare!!!!! I spoke to Mr Haney for at least an hour.
Rebecca Davis wrote:
I’d probably knock myself out if I head desk at the intensity I feel like. Just another proof that nouthetic counselling is a crock & not worthy of the name therapy.
Gail L Cain wrote:
Because they are so misogynistic and Old Testamenty (legalism, yay!), that why!
Julie Anne wrote:
Wait, by that logic, since many Calvinists believe that God is the cause of everything, wouldn’t that mean that God cause Jane to be raped and that man to rape her for His own purpose? I suppose he also meant for her to apologize, because that’s what God does. Being just and good and all…
Doesn’t seem like the God that I know.
Once again, and these same people are the ones who act this way and when they get ” called on it” they claim they are being “persecuted ” because they are Christians.
Anything to try and change the story to ” poor pitiful us.”
Our former pastor when taking over wcc consulted with JM before doing that he admits it in the sermon posted and another place online. I believe he’s very much involved in everything. He also may not have written his study bible. It’s been put out there JM’ seminary students helped do that by using his notes something to that affect. I am just saying that it’s been put out there not saying I know its fact. I just think he may be more involved in the going ons with his church and schools than most think. Remember he’s their idol and the teachings come out of his church his seminary he produces these half wits who think they run the show in abuse cases. Thankful to the Lordfor the laws of our land!GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:
What is almost dancing?
Today my husband and I were discussing the question: Why is it that Calvinists seem so hard hearted in their dealings with others?
We came to the conclusion that they have no mercy because they’ve never experienced mercy. They believe they were “chosen” and as a result have never seen themselves as needy sinners in desperate need of redemption. They haven’t experienced the thrill of coming to Jesus, of their own free will, and experiencing his undeserved loving embrace of mercy and forgiveness.
They have no close relationship with Jesus, and they do not know his heart, because their focus not on him. Instead their focus is on themselves, proving they are “elect” by living an outwardly “godly” life. Like the Pharisees they have their legalistic doctrinal system down pat and they can thank God every day that they are not like those other “republicans” over there. They forget that all through the Bible the biggest sin God talks about is not gossip or slander or even divorce… it is PRIDE.
Like Jane, we have experienced the arrogance of one of JM’s seminary graduates when he excommunicated our daughter for leaving an abusive marriage. They said she needed to repent and return to her abusive husband. Why? Not because she didn’t have “biblical grounds”, but because they said so. They wanted their church to be seen as “valuing marriage” and were willing to destroy her in order to maintain their reputation.
Dee. A clarification please. The TMU response mentions available police reports (plural). You mention police report (singular). Am I missing something or just being overly detailed?
As for there being more than one Jane, I have no doubt there are several more. Maybe this will help them come forward.
Oops, I meant “publican” not “republican” :-).
@ Mary27:
HiMary27-
I do believe you have a point in the harshness of many “Calvinists/reformed”. The belief is that they were ‘called by God’ (Romans 8) as any of ‘those In Christ” are. God calls the ones he calls to repent and believe in Jesus His “chosen”( John 15:16, 1 Peter 2:9) I hope that clarifies things. Most view themselves as ‘saved’ from sin through Christ on the cross. Chosen is NOT supposed to be some kind of ‘above everyone else’ position as ALL stand on level ground before the cross.
Now- I DO believe too many in this group judge where other Christian are in their life instead of focusing on themselves. This causes finger pointing and nasty attacks and often put them on their pedestals telling their OWN (note not the unsaved) to repent of certain sins, ‘you are prideful’, “you are selfish”, “you are not whatever. This is so wrong. This is where this counseling can be awful.
Another point is that much of this nouthetic (Christian) counseling is nothing more that psychology laced with Bible verses (and judgment of the grieving person). Mercy and kindness and any empathy go right OUT the door. They say the root of your pain is your own sin. Is Jesus Christ like this? NO. NO.!
Back to Jane- it is a spirit of pompous/arrogance that does not listen, has no mercy, is not kind, and does not do his homework. In fact, if Jane is “saved” and this offender is not, then why would Holland be attempting a ‘reconciliation’ with darkness. look up 2 Cor. 6:14! It is wrong!
As far as Mac is concerned. He is a wonderful man will maybe too full an agenda- off to conferences, and doing conferences often. The same with his underlings to the point that maybe more older men should be ‘minding the ship’ better. I have a hard time believing MacArthur truly understood this whole story or how it was presented. He should have sat down with this Jane himself. He should have confronted the rapist. It should have been recorded and if the rapist stated it was NOT consentual, a phone call to police again as merited big time.
Again I ask- what about her parents? Jane’s dad is a cop?
Yep Sam, I was told Billy deserved to be raped, by an elders wife who had been a friend. She said that in the context that he deserved his rape because we all deserve no better than hell!!!! I was told by another member head of men’s ministry and one who was one of their biblical counselors and who was involved with Billy as a male figure in the church to come along side him he said that Billy was raped not for Billys sake for God to lead Billy to himself but so that God could use it to do something for me. Again these Calvinist believe what they say to be true and they don’t just lack mercy and love but all common sense gos out the window. Even unbelievers know this type of thinking is twisted. Remember they have to make sure pain fits their interpretation of Gods word or it all falls apart like a house of cards. Everything has to fit. It took me a long time to finally realize this and that unless they themselves experience it being brought to their doorstep I doubt most will ever see. Sad and shameful that is why I personally believe Calvinism is satanic in that it charges God with evil. Sorry but the God I serve is a God of Justice, Holiness,Righteousness, Love, Goodness Fair, and I could go on. I love my Jesus and I’m so glad for His love for me. Sam wrote:
Shauna wrote:
JMac didn’t have a phone or email in 2006? I’m pretty sure they could contact him and ask him if they wanted.
BTW, I was not saying that JMac didn’t know, but that it’s possible his underlings don’t tell him a lot. And that is very possible. Their jobs might be on the line, too.
Shauna wrote:
God allows things to occur. ie: the hurricanes, the earthquakes, death etc. We will not know why Jane was raped. Is there some reason we can not see now? Will through this horrid situation cause change of some men? ‘many men who had nothing to do with this but are reading this? God IS Sovereign. He has ultimate power over everything. God did not ’cause’ Jane to be raped. God did not ’cause’ a baby to die. God did not ’cause’ your car accident. He allows it, He sees it and many times it is to bring people to Him, to prayer, to ask Him for help. Many times it is to reveal to OTHERS that they need to change or how ‘about the word repent and ask Jesus to save their sinful souls? I don’t think ‘calvinism’ or “calvin’s teachings’ have much to do with what happened here. We have a horribly sinful rapist, and some unmericful pompous men. If they do not receive earthly punishment, one day they WILL have to stand before a righteous God.
This is not pleasing to God for sure. What happened is greatly sinful.
We can pray that justice will be served and hearts will be changed. Truly. We can pray for healing of pain in all of this.
Mary27 wrote:
Excellent insight.
Please note everyone- there are 2 Dee's posting here. The first post is not the same as this one (the latter one) Thanks.
Jane was told to apologize for wearing a dress that her attacker put on her after he drugged her unconscious and then, presumably, stripped her; she was told to apologize for drinking alcohol that her attacker forced down her throat; and to make matters even more bizarre, the dress that he put on her and the alcohol that he forced her to drink caused him to “stumble.” (That’s what you call it? Premeditated drugging, kidnapping, and raping a woman over a period of several days is “stumbling”?)
And then she’s disciplined not only for what was done for her, but for “almost dancing.” Almost dancing? Seriously? SERIOUSLY?
Words fail me.
(While I’m posting, I want to say thanks to TWW for publishing parts of the police report. As someone who was taken in by the Razing Ruth internet hoax a few years ago, I deeply appreciate it when bloggers share evidence for the stories they publish.)
@ JC:
This came out when we discussed her counseling. Can you imagine having to repeat that this is what was asked of you? This is a humiliating and deeply personal as well as invasive question for a number of reasons. Let me give you a couple.
1. It is voyeuristic.
2. It is a biological response that the individual has no control over, even in a traumatic rape situation. I did not ask her what she responded not would I. It has nothing to do with the rape.
Actually, this gives me an opportunity to go on a short rant.
This is meant for all of you ace counselors out there in fundamentalist land in which science is considered an enemy.: An organism can be a purely biological response to stimulation of certain aspects of the female (or male) anatomy. In other words, it cannot be controlled. If you ask this question to a woman or man who has been raped, you are causing further abuse and extending the rape into your counseling chambers. You are stupid, uneducated, mean possibly voyeuristic and have no business pretending that you are a counselor.
Let me repeat myself-this question of a rape victim is abusive.
ishy wrote:
Can you believe that people actually believe such things? Do you remember this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Akin
Akin, who had won the Republican primary in a crowded field, led McCaskill in pre-election polls until he said that women who are victims of what he called “legitimate rape” rarely get pregnant. Akin eventually apologized for the remark but rebuffed calls to withdraw from the election.[1] He lost to McCaskill by 54.7 percent to 39.2 percent.[2] In a book published in July 2014, Akin said that he regretted apologizing and defended his original comments.
@ dee: Here is a good article on the subject from Scientific American.
MOD: Oops. Dee will add a link to this article in current comments. GBTC
@ Rebecca Davis:
Thank you fro being an encouragement to Jane. Can you imagine how difficult this has been for her?
@ Sam:
Well said!
Anon wrote:
Thank you for brining this up. There appears to be an unhealthy relationship between GCC and the university-It reminds me of the old Superman meme: Is it a church? Is it a college? Its’ both!
Mary27 wrote:
Delving into the big five personality types I’m inclined to believe their doctrine attracts such men. The intricate doctrine appeals to those who like order, those who are high in conscientiousness and low in agreeableness. While these qualities are admiral when added to a mix, personality qualities should never stand alone. Each of us need qualities supplied by others to keep us on center. The problem is their hierarchy seems to be made entirely of such men and because of their authoritarian bent they will not hear from those they deem beneath them, those with other traits and outlooks. It is a recipe for rule making tyrants.
JYJames wrote:
John MacArthur is totally responsible for he actions of his minions. I think another tactic might be in play. The minions are hired and act for him and are able to give him plausible deniability.
Your answer will come quite quickly. If he decided to hide in his office and study, then he should come out of his office, ask to see Jane, beg for forgiveness and kick the perps to the curb. If he remains silent behind a wall of lawyers or speaks out using the tired words of sand,r defamation etc. you have your answer about his real feelings on the matter.
Allie wrote:
I totally agree.
JohnG wrote:
As far as I know there was only one police report but I will check. This was the only report on the night she went to police. Perhaps they are referring to investigative reports?
Another Dee wrote:
Why would you not think her father was involved? Remember, he is not an officer in the jurisdiction where the incident took place. You can be sure he asked many questions of his own.
@ dee:
Exactly. What’s the point of highfalutin theology when a leader or institution has this type of legacy, with real lives of real people? Same goes for Wheaton, etc.
Mary27 wrote:
That’s where the term “Frozen Chosen” came from. 😉
Another Dee wrote:
Yes!
Another Dee wrote:
So what you are saying is that God could have *allowed* the rape to occur in order to cause someone else to repent? Are you saying that said person could not have repented unless Jane got raped? Are you saying that God foreordained that rape to occur so that little Jimmy down the street might become a Christian and so it is OK that it happened because a greater good happened? I don't see it that way. I think God allows us to live in a world which is fallen and in a fallen world, bad things happen to those who love God and those who hate God alike. I believe that God enters into the lives of those who suffer and know Him and gives them the peace that passes all understanding while they traverse the pain and sorrow in this world. Since this is a sensitive subject, I do want to state categorically that I do not in any way, shape or form believe that God ordained the rape of Jane so someone might become a Christian. I believe that God is in Jane's life and giving her strength during this terrible time and He did not want Jane to be raped so that anyone would be a Christian.
Anonymous Grandma wrote:
We always get the permission of the victim before we post any documents. Also, we try to be careful not to have any sort of identifiers in the report to give the victim anonymity. Also, we do not post the name of the suspect in the police report unless the suspect has been publicly named by the victim.
Shauna wrote:
Brings back one of many many times I have heard similar statements. This was in context of the Holocaust and a conversation I had with some folks from my old faith community. First, it was made clear that all of us deserve to go to Auschwitz-Birkenau, God knew from the foundations of the universe that this was going to happen and God was personally in charge of it, and God would get great glory out of this. Second, it was punishment for people who are Jewish because they killed Jesus and called down a curse on them and their children Matthew 27:25 until the Rapture then God would win all the Jewish people back to believe in Jesus. When I brought up that I thought Jesus laid down his life and no one took it from him, John 10:18 I got a few somewhat red faces of anger/disapproval.
Then we got into the discussion concerning how God has put scales over the eyes of people who are Jewish John 10:18. All this was said by people who really believe it and would say such utter nonsense without batting an eyelash. I always found that very strange.
I do not know much about Rick Holland, and I do wish he and Johnny Mac had severed ties with CJ years ago. This is a sad story. I cannot imagine if it was my daughter…. but that dude would really be crying once I caught up with him.
The only thing about this story that does not sound right is that neither of them is stupid enough to handle this the way it is portrayed in the story. Rick would know better and he would do the right thing even if for no other reason than to keep his nose clean. I would think he would have had a female staff member present too. Perhaps I am missing something here. I do not mean to offend anyone
It sure seems like the Calvinists breed this kind of arrogance. I know the elect is a plural noun in the Greek. I’ve always taken the unconditional covenant promises as corporate in nature – there will always be a party to the covenant or God is not faithful. But the individual promises are conditional. It is very conditional whether you or I are part of the corporate group.
God promises to protect and bless Israel, but not every individual in Israel experiences that. What a breeding ground for blame and guilt.
Why is it so hard for institutions to do what is right after the fact? It is always the cover-up. I remember the Jimmy Swaggart debacle. The Assemblies of God national office stood their ground, in spite of the fact that Jimmy Swaggart was giving their World Missions agency $10 million/month (not a typo!). The AG gained a lot of credibility in the wider Evangelical community for resisting pressure and doing the right thing.
Jane, I see you. Pursue justice and righteousness, and don’t doubt that task for a minute!
Get all those John MacArthur Study Bibles and throw them in the trash. Hope I can get to sleep tonight after readying this. Women are second class citizens the way radical Muslim men treat their women!
George wrote:
… And then you proceed to state “he would know better”. If you don’t know much about him, then how do you know what he would do?
There are lots of so-called professionals who should “know better” but don’t when their own biases take over.
This girl was kidnapped, drugged, dressed up by her kidnapper and raped. He bought her shoes, like some sort of living doll.
She could just as easily wound up in a shallow grave.
Thank so for inputting that Dee, I didn't make that quote though. I agree with you God can intervene if He chooses. Maybe one day we will see why he didn't in a lot of these cases. Because He doesn't in my heart it doesn't mean He wants these things to happen to His children because God does not condone sin. He allows us to make those choices and either run to Him or not Choose him. My heart goes out to Jane. Another Dee wrote:
TEDSgrad wrote:
It’s a tough choice when evil comes along and you need to stand your ground, get the story straight, engage trained professionals (law enforcement, medical, forensics, etc.) and then do the right thing.
A high school administrator friend tells of when he got the call from his athletic director on a Saturday night that a team was engaged in hazing. My friend hung up the phone and immediately called the police department. This was at a prestigious nationally-known high school, but he did exactly the right thing in the moment. Textbook.
Tough decision but this is where leadership is evidenced, or not.
The fact the institution expunged Jane’s achieved grades on her transcript is particularly evil, like make the victim disappear? One step away from what happens on that show Dateline.
They should lose their jobs for mishandling the situation. They are clearly not up to their titles and job descriptions. A bit beyond their levels of competency.
This is a horrible, heartbreaking story, of course. But Jane’s experience raises so many questions that need to be answered by her friends, the rapist, the Master’s Seminary, Grace Church, and even the police.
She went out with 3 seminary men, their girlfriends, and a 4th man who turned out to be a rapist. Her story covers several days, during which all these other people discussed going dancing, which was against school rules, they engaged in beer drinking, also against school rules, they repeatedly laughed at alarming physical problems she was having, to the point of blacking out, knowing she’d had a concussion. Rather than seeking medical help for her, she apparently was raped at a location where all these other people were drinking and laughing it up.
The physical evidence confirms that sex occurred, yet the police concluded it was merely a he said/she said situation (with respect to consent) even though there were all these other people around for the police to question, who would have witnessed that she started acting drugged before she had had any alcohol, just a “soda” provided by the rapist. Anyone in her life could have testified that there is no way someone of her character and lifestyle would suddenly consent to sex with a stranger.
Unfortunately the only part of the story that raises no questions in my mind is the abominable treatment of Jane by the school’s counselors, administrators, and maybe even JMac himself. We’ve seen so much of this bizarro world handling of victims of male sexual predators by Calvinistic “Christian” authorities that none of this part is surprising anymore.
But the rape case itself is missing a huge piece. Were all four of these guys in fact a ring of sexual predators? They seem to be sociopaths, considering their laughing at her behavior which they would have to believe was either due to drugs and alcohol or her concussion or both.
Where are these men now? This isn’t ancient history. Why aren’t they being deposed by a lawyer about what they saw, what they did, what they failed to do during this whole episode?
I hope the Deebs are able to follow up with Jane or via Julie Anne to give us more info and updates on what should be a series of civil lawsuits against these people, not to mention a criminal case against the rapist.
There is some big missing piece to all this.
Another Dee wrote:
Oh boy, this is one messed up "divine plan". Here's what I know. – hurricanes are caused by the energy of large masses of water heated by a nuclear furnace called the sun. – earthquakes are caused by tectonic plate movements. – my car accident was caused a guy making a decision to get drunk & ram into the back of it. – Jane's attacker made a choice to commit this crime. He proceeded to set her up by dressing her a certain way and ensuring that witnesses saw this. He knew what he was doing. And saying God allowed it doesn't bring people to Christianity. It's why they leave.
@ Shauna:
thanks Shauna… I was wondering if anyone followed up with Haney… anyone else talk to him?
Dee, we all appreciate your work, but I wonder if a blog post is going to persuade the school to actually do anything. If I were you I would reach out to a news outlet, like the la times, where they can put an investigative reporter on it. And, possibly bring real attention, outside of the tmc circle.
No! They are actually stupid enough to handle it exactly how Jane stated. Jane has no reason to lie and has every reason to shout from the mountain tops , that this happened exactly how it happened. Also she is very detailed no one goes through that much detail who is a rape victim just to add to their story. It’s hard enough as it is to endure the assault and the public shaming and on top of that those you believed cared treat you like garbage. It happened to my son from one of JM seminary minions. He was so cavalier that he angered the judge because he actually asked the judge to drop the charges and hand him over to the church. I mean how stupid could he be? Our former church leader I can’t even address him as a pastor actually asked the judge to drop child sexual assault charges!!! They are not stupid really they are just that arrogant George wrote:
From the wiki page on JM:
He’s a cessationist – maybe students need to secede from Masters.
And this from 4 years before this incident:
“In May 2002, in the midst of significant media and public attention focused on Catholic sex abuse cases, MacArthur gave a message highly critical of the entire system of the Roman Catholic priesthood.”
I am starting to shake and sweat. Rick asks me to sit down by my rapist. Rick speaks for the rapist. “He has admitted to everything he has done. He has acknowledged his sin and that this relationship was not consensual and he has repented. Look at him, he is crying.”
It’s not clear whether the rapist went to the police and admitted to the rape. Did the rapist go to the police and admit to the rape? If not, why?
Rick’s account of what occurred needs to be made known. @ Gail L Cain:
George wrote:
The record and transcript proving this have not surfaced, and the list of things (posted above) that Jane was to accomplish does not evidence that this occurred. dee wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
I think that is a great idea.
George wrote:
Did you know that Rick Holland spoke at Mahaney’s church two years ago? We wrote about it.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/04/20/rick-holland-says-he-was-privileged-to-speak-at-sgc-louisville/
If Rick Holland was following SGM protocol in dealing with victims and their perpetrators, then what Rick allegedly did sounds totally believable to me.
Anon wrote:
Welcome to TWW. We’re quite the motley crew here. Point is, I agree with you, douchebags come in all theological flavors. I should know. Here at TWW I kinda sorta’ represent the unregenerate free-thinkers of reprobate mind.
This is one of the saddest things I have ever read. But, at the same time it makes me extremely angry.
Why is Jane being held to account for anything, she is the victim. Have these so called men of God not read their Bible? I’d call to their attention Genesis 19:31-35, where Lot’s daughters drug and rape him, so the Bible itself is clear that being drunk or drugged can make us do things we would not normally do, as does medical science. While I can see where these leaders are coming from, when it comes to reconciliation, I believe that they have misunderstood those passages.
Firstly, in reading the New Testament passages on reconciliation I fail to see where it is ever mentioned that reconciliation should be imposed by those in authority, it is something that we are called to give to those who hurt us, but we cannot be made to give it, Ephesians 4:32 says “Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.” that means that forgiveness is something that we have to freely give just as God freely forgave us, forcing someone to forgive their attacker is not abiding by the spirit of the scripture, since no one forced God to forgive us, instead he did it freely. If they had been the disciples would they have quickly found Judas and reconciled with him? Would they have insisted that the Virgin Mary wash his feet?
Secondly, concerning the idea that she(or any other church victim) should go to the church instead of to the police and the courts, they are clearly referring to Matthew 5:25-26, Luke 12:58-59 and 1 Corinthians 6:1-8, and again these supposedly eminent theologians are failing to understand what they are reading. Those verses are clearly dealing with civil suits not CRIMINAL law.
Also, did they punish the seminarians who witnessed this, or their girlfriends? Were any of them punished for drinking? Were they made to apologize for allowing this attack to occur?
To anyone and everyone that seeks to cover up and downplay sexual assault in the faith, purely to protect the reputations of a Church, Ministry, Christan individual, or -Educational institution remember Matthew 7:21-23 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”
Deb wrote:
Birds of a feather…
It would be an illegal action. Evidence that this occurred has not surfaced and been made public. The list Jane needed to accomplish, printed above, does not evidence that this occurred. It is a very serious allegation against TMU; therefore, it must be supported with evidence. Gail L Cain wrote:
@ Deb:
And in that post you include this post from TWilhelm about Holland joining the “Wall of Shame” with a number of celebrity pastors:
https://thouarttheman.org/2015/04/18/rick-holland-joins-the-hall-of-shame/
Leadership? In title only, without corresponding moral conscience and ethical action. Ah yes, Jesus had to deal with those types back in His day. Nothing new.
Leslie wrote:
I just emailed Dee and Deb about an investigative reporter for the Los Angeles Times.
Anon wrote:
I totally agree with this comment. I was reluctant to believe Jane at first, but there has been subsequent collaboration of the story and to do otherwise would be putting one’s head in the sand. The behaviors on display by the institution have transcended theological boundries over the years whether one has been “Reformed”, Baptist, Catholic or points in between. Scandal is tough on any institution, but the best way to deal with things is to confess and repent. It works for individuals, it would work for institutions if they practiced what they preached.
Did any of this reach John McArthur’s gilded tower?? Where was he during all this mess? Writing another book???
Making sure no one was (God forbid!) dancing?? Ugh!!! His legalism is legendary
TEDSgrad wrote:
Let’s not forget that MacArthur was in litigation for a decade with the parents of a young man who went to GCC and killed himself.
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-04-04/news/mn-952_1_supreme-court
Here’s the headline:
All that’s left is to shout it from the housetops that John MacArthur, his minions, Grace Community Church, The Master’s University and Master’s Seminary are harmful to people. Over and over and over again. MacArthur is 78. Maybe he’ll admit he was wrong before he leaves this world for the next.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:
One thing I have learned is that leadership in the evang industry cannot admit to any wrongdoing ever, even if the Triune God appeared before them they could not do it. Of course, this does not include admitting if you are wrong for the apologetic, winning an argument, raising funds, making others look bad if someone higher up the beanpole told you to, you make money ie in a book or other such spiritual God Honoring reasons.
Deb wrote:
Yes, that is what I was requesting. Bless you Dee & Deb!
Ken P. wrote:
Ken P, I have been reading all the material on the Jane’s story closely and I have been responding on social media in many ways. I am supporting Jane and those who are advocating for her. There is nothing wrong with me asking Dee and Deb to amend the way they wrote a date.
I am not stupid and I don’t need you to re-write all the dates in the screen shots which Dee and Deb published from Jane’s documents. Please don’t accuse me of being nitpicking. I was simply asking Dee and Deb to amend a date in their text to make it easier to understand for a worldwide audience.
If you look at what I”m sharing on twitter and my FB page about Jane’s story, you will know I believe her.
And I hope you apologize for calling me a nitpicker. You do not know me well enough, and you’ve assumed something about me without reasonable grounds.
look at my twitter profile to see what I’m saying about Jane’s story, if you want to verify for yourself:
@NotUnderBondage
I believe Jane’s account of how she was drugged and raped and how when she then she reported what she has suffered to Master’s College/University, they treated her unjustly.
Ps Rick Holland, John MacArthur and other so-called Christians who dealt injustice to Jane will be held to account by God.
I honour Marci Preheim, Julie Anne and Dee & Deb for helping Jane’s story be published.
There are some facts that need clarification.
1. Jane says it was spring break. (A witness says it was outreach week which according to research takes place in the fall semester at that school.
2. Jane says she was unconscious for several days. later Jane says she woke up a day and a half later. Does this mean after she was dropped off at her dorm she laid there for another day and half? Wouldn’t that be medically dangerous?
3. Jane says she woke up at one point at a bar with new clothes on. Usually when victims are drugged they are not brought back in public. Why would the accused individual carry an unconscious victim to a bar?
4. Jane said the police determined it was her word against his. Now Jane is saying the police report proves she is right. I understand police will not make a ruling but does anything in the report prove her accusations?
Thanks!
Bob
@ dee:
Thank you. The thought also crossed my mind that maybe they were looking at the wrong records. I.e. The report of a different incident. I lived in So. Cal for a number of years and have seen first hand the level of snobbery and petulance some in that crowd exhibit. Would not be hard for me to to believe they did this same thing multiple times.
@ Barbara Roberts:
Barbara. I also thought the nitpicking accusation was unfair to you. I support you and I have read enough of your work to know that you are deeply concerned about this. You were gathering information on the account in order to make an informed and compassionate comment. Your suggestion was good. I
live in the UK so it would also be helpful. I have lost all respect for John MacArthur due to his support for Mahaney and now this. Jane has gone through a terrible ordeal.
Shauna wrote:
God doesn’t rape people to get them to serve Him. He “saves” them. I truly believe that God knows that rape and sexual assault/harassment only drives people further away from him and into despair -especially when caused by those in the church.
I want to thank Marci for the courage to publish the story. She put herself in the line of fire no matter which way this goes…legal or not. I am well aware of the cost to speak negative truth about “important” and adored celebrities.
I went to school at TMU during the period mentioned. And I’ve been watching and waiting for developments. The schools response was very cold and weak. At the same time, they can only say so much, legally, I guess? Definitely not good though.
I remember trying to get my credits in order to graduate. What a total pain. They were so pedantic, that this lazy college kid had to fulfill all their requirements to the letter. That meant summer school and all the rest. Plus, there are several people involved at the registrars office. So, based on my own experience, and I was disciplined at one time!!!! I just find it hard to believe they changed her grades. That doesn’t negate horrible counsel and the rest.
I know a lot of former students that just don’t believe it. I know other kids asked to leave, as well and it was a long process. And a lot of it involved meeting with people. But lie someone else said, RH was never at the school, GCC is about 25-30 mins away. It would go through the deans etc at least that’s how mine was handled. Student life as it was called.
Surely there are copies of transcripts that show more than one semester with DNF did not finish on them? And the name can be redacted? A lot colleges don’t accept bible courses. Period. So if that’s all you took then yeah it would take forever to graduate.
Muff Potter wrote:
Nah, Mott. We’re just an eclectic mix of Bereans………
Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
Acts 17:11-12 Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men.
ishy wrote:
Sounds like JoePa at Penn State, doesn’t it?
TEDSgrad wrote:
i.e. “I THANK THEE, LOOOOOOOOOOOORD, THAT I AM NOTHING LIKE THOSE FILTHY ROMANIST PAPISTS OVER THERE…”
dee wrote:
Anyone remember the scene from Roots where Massa is Studying SCRIPTURE (and cannot be disturbed) while his overseer is whipping Kunta Kinte almost to death?
Beakerj wrote:
i.e. The “Everybody’s Doing It” justification?
Op cit above comment re South Park (currently in moderation).
Thersites wrote:
The same level as the Fiftysomething ehebephile on To Catch a Predator who argued on-camera to Chris Hansen’s face that “Everybody does it — fathers to sons, teachers to students…”
ishy wrote:
“Grace” in the title of a Christian organization should be treated as the equivalent of “Democratic” in a Third World country’s official name.
@ Another Dee: Could I ask you a favor? Since it makes no sense for me to change my name, cold you please change you name to help with confusion? Maybe Dee 2 or something like that? We have some different views on issues like the problem of pain and suffering and I would prefer not to use my time telling people that I wasn't the one who said something.
MOD: GBTC We have done this and are changing all the links. Monday 4:30pm.
Folks
There is another Dee. commenting and I have asked her to change something about her name so we can be distinguished from one another. Just for the record:
I am not a Calvinist. (For some, this means I am going to hell.)
I do not believe that God micromanages everything on this earth. In other words, sometimes a hurricane is just that- a hurricane and that is what happens on this planet.
I believe that God is with us in every circumstance.
I believe that God is sovereign but that does not mean that He micromanages everything. He is so big that there can be many choices that can fit within his overall plan.
I have attended churches that were Calvinist in theology.
I am not attending one of those now and have found peace in a liturgical based church.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
As Boz Tchividjian has said: The child sex abuse problem in the evangelical church is even worse than that in the Catholic Church. For the record, I believe that some Catholics, just like some Calvinists and some Arminians are Christians…
Buddy wrote:
For Jane, this was one of the worst parts of her punishment. My guess is that the proof will all come out in the near future.
I am reading through this but I just have to address this part
She did not sin. So. There you go.
Also, drugs that incapacitate you can make it impossible to fight back. They can also make you unconscious. Has this IDIOT ever had surgery? What is wrong with these people???????????
dee wrote:
Dee, even if you were a Calvinist, I’d have no grounds to judge you. Calvinism is a wide spectrum. Now, if you suddenly announce to the world that Jesus was not God, that He is not the only way to get into heaven, that He was not Born of a Virgin, that there is no Trinity, that there is no sin whatsoever…
Then congratulations, you’d be a heretic and I would not read your blog anymore.
Don’t worry about what the other “Dee” says, you and Deb are doing the right thing. That’s all that matters.
@ dee:
And unethical.
Bob wrote:
The police report proves something sexual happened and the date coincided with her narrative. I would imagine that you are implying that she had consensual sex and is now, 11 years later, trying to make up some sort of narrative in order to do…what. exactly? So let me ask you a few questions.
1. Why would she put herself through this sort of trauma with every Tom Dick and Bob questioning her account?
2. Since you appear to have some expertise in date rape drugs and medical conditions, maybe you could help me to understand why someone who has been drugged, plied with alcohol on top of a concussion would be able to give a clear and concise time frame as to what happened?
3. Since you appear to have some expertise on date rape drugs, why don’t you tell me why you believe that she was totally unconscious during this time? It is my understanding that such drugs wear off in a few hours so the person may be awake but confused.
4. Unconscious can mean many things. Perhaps you have had surgery using conscious sedation. Do you know what that means? That means you are able to be awakened quite easily. In fact, many patients are awakened during this period yet possess no memory of the event. Since Jane is not a medical person, it would not be unreasonable for her to believe that she was totally unconscious.
I would be very careful of playing a game of Law and Order in this situation. When drugs, alcohol, concussion as well as rape occur all at the same time, the narrative should be cloudy. If it was perfect, like should be the case when someone is planning a vendetta over 11 years, then it would be even more suspicious.
Lea wrote:
Rick Holland and John MacArthur are BFFs with CJ Mahaney. I wonder if they asked him his thoughts on the matter since he is an *expert* at dealing with these matters…
I was so glad to know that Dee was not dee as I was just about to make a phone call to the East Coast to make sure our lovely blog Queen was feeling ok! Whew!
ishy wrote:
Obviously that whole thing jumped out at me too.
My uncle was telling us one day that he learned hypnotism and the first they told you was how to pick an easy mark.
Hypnotism =/ Drugs.
Sam wrote:
I’m confused as to whether these girls were her friends or not, but regardless they were either terrible people or terribly naive. I’m leaning towards one over the other, but sometimes there are reasons you should NOT be sheltered in life and one is that you know that if your friend looks drugged you are required to watch out for her!! I have been in that situation, where my friend seemed to have been drugged, and the guys we were with wanted us to all go to one of their houses or the one guy wanted to ‘take care of her’ or whatever. I said no and I took her home. Because that is what you do. I just…I have so many problems with this whole story but that is the one that I relate to. The friends should have taken care of her. Period.
Chiming in with some thoughts about upcoming posts and how they relate to this one.
We will be posting a couple of stories regarding the secret lives of a couple of well known men in the next week or so. These men were highly admired. I am sure John MacArthur knew one.
I just told Deb this week that I am getting tired of people calling some leaders *godly men.* This somehow then makes them impervious to serious sin. Sadly, godly men are just as likely to sin as anyone else and they must daily confess their sins just like anyone else.
We put ourselves into quite a predicament when we believe that some men, who preach or teach well, are somehow above the fray. We think that their sins must be something benign like eating one too many donuts each morning so they are 10 pounds overweight.
As you will see in these coming stories, these men lived secret lives while be honored by lots of people. Rick Holland, John MacArthur, etc are no more godly and no less sinful than the janitor who sweeps their floors. If this makes you cringe, then you better start rereading the message of the Gospel.
I read a comment on another blog in which the person said something to the effect “If you knew Rick Holland like I have for 20 years, you would know he would never do something like this.” When I read that, I wondered what Bible they were reading.
No one knows someone so well that they can exonerate them from secret sin. Proof for that is coming in our future posts.
I have decided that I am going to judge celebrity pastors on their actions: Are they kind and loving? Do they exhibit humility? Do they turn the other cheek especially to those who they might consider beneath them.
I have come to the conclusion that none of us knows what goes on in anyone’s life, no matter how much we like them. I refuse to be surprised by the sin of anyone any longer.
Instead, I will be looking for signs of love for the little guy. Let’s see how TMU measures up in the love department in their response. Jesus never said to swing back when someone strikes you on the cheek.
@ Julie Anne:
I was about to check to see if I had been sleep blogging!
Lea wrote:
You are one awesome friend.
@ Bob:
Bob, I can’t speak for Jane, but these are my thoughts on the questions you asked.
Bob wrote:
The police report says the rape took place in March. This is consistent with Jane’s claim that it happened during spring break. The witness appears to be misremembering the time frame. If you asked me about events that happened 11 years ago, I might be able to recall the event quite clearly without remembering exactly when it happened. This would probably be doubly true if I lived in a climate like Southern California’s, where there are no obvious changes of season.
The whole thing was medically dangerous. She was already suffering from a concussion, then she was deprived of food and water while being fed drugs and alcohol. She could have overdosed. She could have vomited up the alcohol and choked to death on her own vomit. If the story is true (and I personally find it highly credible) then this wasn’t just a rape. It was an assault that could have ended as a homicide.
I have a relative who was a victim of sex trafficking. The traffickers kept the girls drugged while in public during transit and at rest stops, but none of the other passengers seemed to notice anything amiss. Based on what my relative went through, this part of the story doesn’t sound at all strange to me. Jane’s attacker might well have been brazen enough to show her off in public while she was drugged. He assumed (correctly) that people would just think she was rip-roaring drunk. (By the way, if this part of the story is true, his brazenness suggests that this wasn’t his first time committing this kind of crime.)
The police report shows that Jane presented to the hospital shortly after the incident and had a rape kit done. While this doesn’t necessarily prove rape, it does show that immediately after the incident, she was willing to subject herself to a forensic exam (which is a humiliating experience in itself) to back up her claims. The date of the exam also shows that the rape story was not something she invented weeks or months after the fact.
As I said, I do not presume to speak for Jane. But I’ve been walking this earth for a number of decades. I’ve heard the firsthand stories of friends who’ve been the victims of rape and other sexual violations. I’ve seen how men (and women) in power band together to protect themselves, their careers, their organizations, and their protégés. Based on my life experience, there’s nothing in Jane’s story that makes me doubt her word.
drstevej wrote:
Right? What a crazy charge! i’m guessing it’s being somewhere where dancing was occurring or something?
I went dancing all the time as a college student. Sketchy strangers in clubs have more integrity than these people.
Thersites wrote:
I think the fundamentalist/patriarchal attitudes go poorly with Calvinism. I don’t want to run around saying ‘not all calvinists’ because that’s not really the point of this, but I think the core attitude that causes this unkind, unthinking harshness is not really calvinism. Maybe some do, as you said, pick calvinism because they are trying to excuse their own attitudes and behavior? But I really think the problems are a lot deeper than that, because nothing about predestination tells you you have cart blanche to be a terrible person. And that’s what these people are.
Bob wrote:
Bob, I hope I can clarify since this came from my post and discussions with both the witness and Jane. Witness private messaged me on Facebook Messenger. I had no idea if this person was legitimate or not. I barraged her with questions – detailed questions that I was not able to post publicly. I needed to settle in my mind if this person was telling the truth or not. Keep in mind, if I post a story this big on my blog and haven’t done my homework, I will be discredited. Of course I don’t want to risk that.
In the course of my conversation with Witness, I began texting with Jane at the same time, letting her know that I had a possible witness come forward. When Witness gave me info, I then asked Jane a question about that situation, but left out details to see if Jane could provide information to fill in the gaps. I did this kind of interrogation with each of them, back and forth.
The discrepancy regarding the Outreach vs Spring Break week seemed to be a minor one to me. It made sense that Jane would have the time fixed in her mind because she was the victim. It also made sense that Witness could mistaken the exact time because of the length of time since the incident. The setting was the same: students were not at school, it was quiet. Witness would have no need to remember the date detail; however Jane has lived with that detail and interrogations from the time she first reported. Keep in mind, I was shooting off a lot of questions to Witness, and she was responding quickly.
When I heard the discrepancy, I asked Jane to confirm Outreach week time frame, and she said it was definitely Outreach week. I then asked more about the time to Witness. The main point Witness said was that school was not in session. It is not in session in both Spring break and Outreach week. So, I asked if there was a possibility that it could happened during Outreach week. Witness thought about it and said yes, because school was not in session. Remember, this was 11ish years ago.
Even with the original discrepancy on dates, I am convinced that Witness was honest with me, and provided enough details to prove to be believable.
I hope this helps.
dee wrote:
LOL oh my word that one had me fall out of my chair laughing. Anyone who has been at this blog for any amount of time know that the other dee is not the Dee of this blog. Her statements are not indicative of dee parsons who we know. Also if this person chooses not to change something about their name so that knew people coming in can distinguish between the two I find that disappointing. It also may be revealing in regards to ” why would you not want to distinguish yourself from the Blogger” ? Just saying!
George wrote:
Rick Holland and John MacArthur are no better or worse than CJ Mahaney. Severing ties will not change their character.
Jane, hang in there it will get better. You have an incredible amount of support here at TWW and these ladies will fight for you. They have an amazing platform and will use it to expose these men.
It's not just that you were violated once but in the aftermath I believe the church, your college, JM, Rick Holland, all these men not only failed you but abused you. They abused your trust, they twisted your words, and were abusive by making you encounter your rapist and apologize for him raping you. Jane I'm still stunned and just when I think it couldn't get any worse! These men need to be held accountable and I'm sorry but public shaming is warranted. This malarkey needs to stop and Christians from around the world need to start rebuking these men for doing crap like this.
I'm sorry Dee and Deb I'm just so mad. I want to say more, but I don't want to take away from Jane's story. This is about her and we need to fight for her. I mean seriously I have never wanted to put my hands on anyone and I seriously feel that way after reading this. Then when I contact Mr. Haney he was nice and seemed to be fair I read this and think, seriously?
Jane please hang in there. If I can encourage you in any way, get specialized counseling if you haven't already. Come here and read all of the comments because we support you.
OK, I'm off my soap box and I am praying for awesome amazing attorneys to line up behind this beautiful girl. Sorry but going after their money is one way to have things put in place so that another kid doesn't go through that crap!!! When you take their money they are forced to do the right thing!
George wrote:
I know I’m posting a storm this morning as I read through, however I wanted to address this because to people outside the bubble, yes, all of this sounds incredibly stupid. And yet. It seems to happen all the time.
So. I would suggest you think about groupthink and how it leads to incredibly poor decision making. And then think about how groups like this exclude all women, all ‘liberals’ and basically anyone who isn’t thinking exactly like them from their circle. And then when someone calls them on it, they kick them out, call them ‘rebellious’ or whatever name they wish, and dismiss them from their mind. Oh! They also forbid ‘gossip’.
And then you have what looks like incredibly stupid decisions being made constantly.
There are several people connected to TMU on Twitter and personal friends who are saying that she made a false accusation and consented to the sex, alcohol, and drugs and the police report proves it because it doesn’t say he was charged. They say Masters is positive of this.
First of all, that’s not the point of a police report. The police report confirms she made a report. It only states the facts of her report. And to those people who keep saying “The police stated it was a he said/she said on the report”–that’s not on the report and couldn’t be.
Second, most rape kits are never investigated, so how can anyone press charges if the police won’t investigate? https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/07/16/untested-rape-kits-evidence-across-usa/29902199/
Very few people who report rapes to the police are lying. As I said earlier, people who disbelieve the stories of rape victims and other assault victims are the least reliable people in these situations.
And last, all of that is irrelevant to Masters. They have never denied that they disciplined her and I think their statement this week implies it because it calls her a liar specifically based on the police report. If they called her a liar and pretended she was really anonymous, they might have been more believable, but they revealed they knew exactly who she was based on her story.
She was disciplined a month and a half after the rapes occurred. Masters is not a court of law and while they may not have been able to help her, they had no grounds to discipline her based on their opinion of the police report. And her testimony alone is enough evidence for a conviction but the legal system is such that most rapes go without a conviction.
They would have had to take her to court to PROVE her accusation was false for them to have any grounds to claim it was and to support their claim that she deserved to be punished. And that would never have happened within two months.
@ Lea:
I agree with Lea… I came out of that bubble… in fact, in 1978, my fundamentalist Baptist High School stayed at Los Angles Baptist College, LABC, on our senior trip to LA. In the mid 80’s LABC became the Master College when McArthur took it over…..
LABC, and now TMU, has been, and continues to be YEC, and they teach that psychology is all wrong since it is based on secular humanism….
Lets just say that I am not surprised by all of this..
I nearly started hyperventilating when I read “Do You See Me?” yesterday morning, I was so angry. And almost immediately, a FB friend of mine who attends John Macarthur’s church (with whom I once attended a nouthetic counseling conference) messaged me to say this is a fabrication, and the blogger is just trying to take Master’s down, and Rick Holland (who she “knows personally”) never said any of those things.
I believe he did. It sounds EXACTLY like the sort of victim-blaming “biblical counsel” I received at HBC, and I of course was never raped/drugged. This is their modus operandi.
I am beyond sickened at the EVIL these corrupt, powerful men and their sycophant “counselors” perpetrate in the Name of God. I tremble to think what awaits these wicked, depraved fools on judgement day!
dee wrote:
This is exactly the line of reasoning several people at the HBC church/cult used to exonerate Cochrell. Because he is a good expository preacher, and comes across as a “nice guy”, those who had never had the horrible personal experiences or first-hand abuse of power that I and other former members did REFUSED to believe he actually said some of the things he did to me behind closed office doors. They assumed I was lying, even when I produced written documentation.
Pastors who can put up a clever, “nice guy” facade will always be believed over their victims. Their congregants and supporters have too much invested to even entertain the possibility that their characters are any less than pristine.
Three decades ago in a collegiate boxing match I suffered a pretty bad concussion (one of multiple head injuries in my career, which is, ahem, why I decided not to pursue that as a line of work). In any event. the next day at a party I had two, maybe three sips of beer and was suddenly almost down on the floor. It hit like I’d downed an entire six pack really fast. That’s when I realized the effects that a concussion can have; you might think you’re fine next day, but your brain’s still off. I completely believe Jane here, her story rings 100% true, and the detail about the next day addlement and susceptibility to alcohol many hours later (sliding onto the floor) confirms it.
Dee wrote this above, and I think that it is a sad commentary. But she is right. I have come to the same conclusion”
“I have decided that I am going to judge celebrity pastors on their actions: Are they kind and loving? Do they exhibit humility? Do they turn the other cheek especially to those who they might consider beneath them.
I have come to the conclusion that none of us knows what goes on in anyone’s life, no matter how much we like them. I refuse to be surprised by the sin of anyone any longer”
Lea wrote:
Actually, there is.
A Calvie equivalent of “Eternal Security”. When you have a personal Get Out Of Hell Free Card signed by God before the foundation of the world that NOTHING — not even God — can cancel, You Can Get Away With ANYTHING and EVERYTHING, so Why Not?
Mary27 wrote:
I call it “The Arrogance of God’s Predestined Elect”.
ishy wrote:
More Calvinist than New Calvinists?
(Who are already far more Calvinist than Calvin…)
Sopwith wrote:
I have seen Sociopaths and Manipulators turn their Genuine Repentance and Remorse (“Look at him, he is crying”) on and off like a light switch.
CLICK ON! CLICK OFF! CLICK ON! CLICK OFF!
Shauna wrote:
Including God as Predestined Puppet who cannot go against the Institutes.
After all, CALVIN had God All Figured Out. How dare He go against what He is Predestined to do!
This is called “Socratic Atheism”. If God is but another puppet of Predestination, then God is not God, Fate is. Eh, Kismet?
dee wrote:
This is from a young chap named Jesse Johnson, dean of the DC branch of TMS. Former TMS VP for Library, Accreditation, and Operations (24 years) Dennis M Swanson suggested in a Facebook comment that TMS and TMU do a full, serious inquiry and release the results to the public, rather than simply saying “it didn’t happen”.
Johnson *respectfully” told him to delete his comment and that finding Jane’s story plausible is “insane man”.
Some MacArthur minion has taken care of the deletion problem by making at least 78 Facebook comments vanish faster than Joe Stalin’s comrades.
Johnson also moderated and promptly closed down the still-available comments on the Cripplegate article by a GCC pastor saying not to slander or gossip, and not to believe any accusation lacking 2-3 other witnesses. Bad Jane! Bad Jane! Ungodly! Killing your neighbor!!!
Of course the timing of this article is a total coincidence, since he never specifies the current case.
http://thecripplegate.com/how-to-kill-your-neighbor/#more-218678
Dee (NOT dee) wrote:
In my experience, “pray” is Christianese for doing nothing and being oh-so-pious about doing nothing.
And I find it interesting that Dee (not dee) has a handle that seems deliberately chosen for confusion with dee of Deb & Dee. Disinformation Op, anyone?
Things all (female) students at such/all schools or institutions should do
1) take and use tape recorder and video camera in any interaction with fellow students and with administrators
2) in case of fall or any accident, see doctor at once and keep at least 2 copies of dr’s report in secure locations
3) keep records of all grades received. Better still, at the end of each semester request a copy of your transcript (an official record in case of later grade tampering)
In other words, entering their world means they are potential adversaries, NOT friends. Recognize this and protect yourself.
Jack wrote:
Guys:
THAT. SOUNDS. LIKE. A. SERIAL. SEX. KILLER’S. FANTASY. SIGNATURE.
And according to retired FBI profilers, that sort of fantasy acting-out escalates over time. Like an addiction-tolerance response.
Jack wrote:
FBI profilers’ memoirs call that “Staging”.
It’s the sign of an “organized offender”.
“Organized” as in Premeditated and Planned.
Whew. How can anyone disbelieve Jane’s story??? Why would anyone make this up? There is evidence out the wazoo. Lord have mercy.
Anonymous Grandma wrote:
As in “Serial Rapist”?
Marie O’Toole wrote:
“For Satan himself can transform himself to appear as an Angel of Light.”
— some Rabbi from Tarsus (who I’m certain was talking about sociopaths)
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
Amen to that!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I found that exceedingly creepy too. I suppose it could have been a practicality, in that she only had the clothes she was wearing at his apartment and needed a new outfit, but…I would be watching this guy for sure. Maybe I’ve read too many books on this or listened to too much true crime (incidentally? Violence against women, dv or rape, shows up in a LOT of serial killer backgrounds ya’ll. Maybe we should stop ignoring it).
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Excellent point. I would be curious to see when he bought the clothes too.
Here’s what happened. We have a Biblical example, too.
MacArthur is Absalom, in the Jerusalem palace.
Jane is David, fleeing the city whilst being pelted with rocks. dirt, and insults but still alive.
MacAbsalom asked one advisor, Ahithophel, what to do about the “problem”.
Ahithophel gave smart advice: “Say you take this sort of thing very seriously and are appointing a committee to thoroughly investigate and publish a public report. Make sure the committee takes several years and then publishes a few minor improvements to be made. No one will pay attention then, as the interest will have died down.”
Hushai the Arkite then purposely gave foolish advice; “Claim we’ve ALREADY made inquiry and found the accusations to be “plainly incorrect”. Don’t say a word about any of our actions or policies but point out one possible discrepancy in the alleged vicim’s report. If anyone comments about our statement, make the comments disappear. Have a minion publish an article about slander and gossip without mentioning the particulars. Your “problem” will just go away!!!”
MacAbsalom and all the men of *Grace* said, “The advice of Hushai the Arkite is better than that of Ahithophel.” For the Lord had determined to frustrate the good advice of Ahithophel in order to bring disaster on MacAbsalom.
II Sam 17:14 English Slandered Version
@ Deb:
I have gotten to where the crazier a story is, the more likely I am to believe it. Truth really is stranger than fiction. Fiction has rules…
Another Dee wrote:
As the co-moderator here at TWW, I have taken the liberty of changing the moniker "Dee" to "Another Dee". We would appreciate her using the latter one going forward. As you will see, I have made this alteration to previous comments by "Dee".
My co-blogger dee and I will be discussing this tomorrow. I will be recommending that we add to our Rules of the Road that our monikers (dee and deb, whether capitalized or not) should not be used by any of our commenters. It's just way too confusing for everyone, including us!
If a new commenter does not realize this is one of our guidelines, then we will kindly email them and ask that they re-post their comment using a different moniker.
Fortunately, in our over 8 years of blogging, this has rarely been a problem.
dee wrote:
Disagree with you here. Truly godly people do sin less, because they have the Holy Spirit, and they are engaged in a genuine struggle against sin, because it’s no longer their true nature—and when they sin, its probably not along the lines of brutal, sadistic abuse, brazen lies, pharisaical victim-shaming, protecting institutions and empires at the expense of innocent victims and children. When they sin it’s not cold, calculated evil such as is discussed here regularly. The problem is that too many of these people discussed here are not godly people, probably do not know God, and ample evidence of this is in their fruits.
dee wrote:
Their made up Bible, their self-serving, twisted Bible, because the actual Bible says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man.”
dee wrote:
You’re almost never going to see it. Name one Christian celebrity in the last generation who has truly, genuinely exhibited humility or showed sacrificial love for little guys? Big stages, spotlights, conference honoraria, mansions and mirrored glasses security thugs hovering round are not exactly conducive to either humility or concern for anyone but yourself. Such stages don’t exactly attract decent human beings, they tend to attract conscienceless abusers.
Dave A A wrote:
How well do you think all these ‘i’ve known him for X years’ people *actually* know these guys? Maybe they had a class with them, or met them at a conference, or had some professional interaction…and they act like that means they know their deep secrets. Nonsense.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Sidenote: I had a woman I know tell me that someone was breaking into her house when she was home and rearranging things (and maybe doing this to others in the neighborhood?) and she thought he wasn’t dangerous because she hadn’t hurt her yet!! I was like N.O.P.E. Be concerned. I would probably straight up move if that happened and I would definitely be sleeping with a 9mm for a while.
Deb wrote:
Thank you. That is helpful.
dee wrote:
And if said person won't play nice by changing his or her moniker? That's easy, just can (ed.) said person's comments.
TomkeinOK wrote:
Very wise words. However I doubt she would have ever imagined being a victim of such a heinous crime with friends who did not even provide an ounce of protection by letting this guy take her. Second I also doubt she ever imagined that the seminary / college would have accused, punished, and change her grades like that! In these environments (Christian) its’ not on the radar. Trust me it never crossed my mind to worry about another member in our church doing something so horrible. How could jane have know? She couldn’t have no one in her shoes would have. She’s in her third year in college so far everything was good. She probably went out with friends a lot of times with no incident. She followed the rules so why would she be suspect of anything there? All that to say is it’s great advice unfortunately there are many out there who don’t realize this exists in the church.
I also thought about something and maybe others see it to! It doesn’t seem like it’s this guy’s first rodeo…. To buy her new clothing and place her back at the bar or just to buy clothing and dress her that is an experienced rapist, it seems to me. Also think of the level of deceptiveness and sickness you have to have to do something like that. Its down right freaking scary.
This is one the saddest stories I’ve read on TWW.
The blatant double standards at play: how dare you ruin this young man’s life; yet they have no qualms about ruining the young woman’s.
The more I read about these ugly misogynists the more I’m convinced that they are about as far removed from Christ as hypocritical, self-righteous, arrogant, unrepentant Pharisees could possibly be. They will be judged in the next world and will get what they deserve. Our God is a just God. This type of story makes me so glad that our God is just, and will deal justly with those unrepentants who showed no mercy to this young, wronged, sinned-against woman.
How can anyone read this story and not be angry? Rest assured God is also angry at unrepentant sin.
May wrote:
Replace the word mercy with ‘compassion’. Why do these guys have zero compassion – one of Jesus’ defining traits? To deal with the victim so harshly… it’s like being presented with a beaten, wounded victim crying with pain, and instead of comforting them and asking them are they all right, putting on hobnail boots and proceeding to kick them.
Lea wrote:
It’s amazing what behavior women are conditioned to believe is okay. A lot of women are just raised to put up with it because “men will be men and breaking into your house” apparently.
I, however, will be joining team 9mm, if that’s okay with you…
I would like to add to my previous comment… and say that I understand that you don’t have to be a Calvinist to be heartless or cruel. I also acknowledge that there are those of the reformed persuasion who are choosing to show mercy to the victims of abuse and I thank God for their ministry.
However, Jane said one of her purposes in telling her story was the hope that it would prevent this kind of thing from happening to others in the future. This means that the folks from JM’s institutions (and their supporters) need to ask themselves some questions: What could be wrong with their theology that allowed a wounded person to lie unattended by the side of the road with no “good Samaritan” to help? How is it that those who name the name of Christ act so little like him? Why do they have a wide spread reputation of defending abusers and kicking the victims to the curb? Why is their “knee jerk” response to discredit the victim and protect their own reputation at all costs?
Sam wrote:
I found that story *terrifying*. I might have been watching too much criminal minds, but I think I would have regardless. I’m pretty sure I was staring at her in horror.
But then, I got into cars with strangers, men who may or may not have drugged a friend thinking I had ‘safety in numbers’ because male/female numbers were even, so I can’t say I haven’t done dumb stuff.
dee wrote:
To make myself clear. NO I do not believe God “foreordained the rape”. He knew this was going to happen as He is omniscient. ‘just as He knew of the hurricanes/earthquake. He did not stop either. What I am saying is that this man needs to repent and believe the gospel. It does NOT excuse what he did. He belongs in jail.
I hope this does not get covered up by GCC/Masters. I hope justice is done.
Lea wrote:
It is my understanding that TMU requires its students to sign a code of conduct that forbids them from dancing (among other frowned-upon activities) on campus or off campus. Alumni reading here can verify this.
@ Jenny:
Dancing is against TMC rules. It’s was one of the more flexible rules though, as people were sometimes able to get exemptions to dance at weddings.
First, none of the behaviors of TMC/TMU described surprises me one bit. Not after the behavior I’ve seen from and the changes I’ve seen in a relative who has wholly entered that camp. Jane’s account brims with complete credibility. I don’t think someone could have made it up. TMC/TMU will do their best to bury this and anyone who comes against them for it, and they’ll never issue a real apology. I firmly believe, based on experience, that only way to change these people’s tune is for Jane to get a really good lawyer and sue them to kingdom come.
Second, I live in California and at least in public schools, it’s illegal for an administrator to change a student’s grade; this is solely the purview of the teachers. That law was passed to protect the integrity of education and to protect teachers and students from political and power plays like TMC/TMU pulled in this case. I don’t know if the law applies to private schools, but if so the school is in deep doo-doo; if not, it certainly shows that the so called “worldly” have better ethics than those who consider themselves spiritually superior.
ishy wrote:
In the post Do You See Me?”, Jane states the following:
They didn’t discipline Jane because they had a different opinion regarding the police report. They disciplined her because she would not submit winsomely to the men God had “put over her”.
For refusing to admit her part in her own rape and apologize to the perp.
For rebelling against Holland’s direct orders.
For not responding sweetly with a quiet, gentle spirit.
For standing her ground, speaking the truth and possessing her own agency.
It might be helpful for those not versed in this culture to remember that their definitions of key words like rebellion, sin, repentance, confession, grace, mercy, forgiveness, etc. are upside down and inside out from those of most Christians. They won’t admit this, mind you, but you will see it in their actions eventually.
Stay focused on what they do, not what they say.
Dave AA, I take my hat off to you. This is superb:
Dave A A wrote:
Zechzav wrote:
Thanks ZechZav 🙂 🙂
I am a graduate of The Master’s College and The Master’s Seminary. I am disappointed in the response from the college/seminary/church. We certainly know in our world that we are capable of anything and this is certainly something that could happen, and to respond in an almost callous way, is sad. The nouthetic type of counseling can be a very harsh method of counseling. I have personally seen this many times in TMC/TMU/Grace environment (I know far more seminary graduates who have left this “tribe” and would not recommend the seminary to someone then those who are remain in the “tribe” because of the legalistic/harsh environment) and to have a rape victim meet with her perpetrator in this way is completely a tactic that would be used.
AliceInWonderland
What would they do with King David when he was dancing essentially in underwear in public worship? What would they do when Jesus turned water into wine?
One has to wonder about the value of a seminary that presumably would discipline King David for his method of worship and Jesus Himself for performing His first miracle. Call me crazy, but I think such a seminary would be more likely than not to make you stupid and faithless rather than educated and built up in the Spirit.
Law Prof wrote:
I was always a bad baptist because I thought those rules were stupid for those reasons.
AliceInWonderland wrote:
I got that. But ‘almost’ dancing? That’s a special kind of stupid.
But Jenny is dead on. She was in trouble because she wouldn’t pretend nothing happen and ‘submit’ to ‘authority’ when they told her to keep things quiet and admit to anything they wanted her to admit to.
John wrote:
Problem is the statute of limitations ran out long ago. That said, surely there are others who could sue for abuse from a place like TMS and people like J Mac, your point is well-taken.
Jenny wrote:
You missed the point. Their story right now is that she lied about it all, there was no rape, and the police report proves it. They are spreading this to everyone they think is on their side. You can’t confront mistruths with motivations. You have to confront their mistruths with why they are mistruths.
They have been quickly spreading Jane’s real identity and the story that she lied about it all because she really consented to it all and then lied to the school to cover it up. Hence, she deserved any punishment she got.
Except… they have no proof that she lied. This is all based on the fact that the police report just stated the report she gave. That’s exactly what police reports are for–for the victim to tell their story. Rape kits can take years to process. The fact that there was no immediate arrest or conviction of the perpetrator does not make her allegation false; in fact, that she made a police report at all makes it highly unlikely she was lying.
In a rape case, the only way a false allegation can a false allegation is if it is proved so in court. Masters had and has no jurisdiction to claim her allegations are false. They especially could not have made that determination within two months after her report to the police, leading them to disciplinary action. They did not take her to court and prove she was lying; therefore her testimony still stands.
ishy wrote:
This is where all these Christian schools use honor code violations to hush people up. Don’t report rape because you will be punished for being in a boys room. Insanity!!!
I want to say something about lack of proof not being proof that something happened too, if that makes any sense. There are a lot of things that happened that i have no proof of. Doesn’t mean they aren’t true.
@ Deb:
Thanks.
TomkeinOK wrote:
TomkeinOK wrote:
Good idea but be careful how you go about it. Make sure the other parties know they’re being recorded. On the rare occasions where I’ve needed to tape a conversation, I’ve also recorded the part where I tell them I’m going to be recording and they acknowledge it. Otherwise, depending on what state you live in (if you’re in the US), you could end up as the one facing criminal and/or civil penalties. https://www.rcfp.org/reporters-recording-guide/tape-recording-laws-glance has a quick rundown of state laws.
@ John:
I agree with this, and it has been my experience also that “secular/worldly” educational institutions have more intellectual honesty, and ethics, than christain ones…. I could go on and on…
AliceInWonderland wrote:
And yet they’ll have the unmitigated gall to bash the Roman Catholic Church for the granting of indulgences…
Anonymous Grandma wrote:
Not necessarily. There are one party consent states and two party consent states. We legally recorded a conversation in our church with a pastor. The other pastors and elders were furious and said we had no right. We did. Here is a link to the list of one party and two party consent states as well as some rules.
http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/recording-phone-calls-and-conversations
@ Law Prof:
ishy wrote:
Agree times 1 million!
If you have lived in their bubble, you understand that they care less about the rule of law than they care about propping up their authority, preserving their revenue stream, and protecting their brand. Standard operating procedure is to threaten to attack a victim’s reputation if they won’t obey the elders and/or stay quiet. People who are already traumatized tend to comply to avoid further pain. Jane is speaking now. God protect and bless her!
My family has been involved in confronting sinning TMS trained pastors and elders in the past. We’re currently involved in a situation with at least one, actually. I have never met a more manipulative, gas lighting, blame-shifting group of people.
As John and Bill each pointed out in their posts above, these folks are seriously lacking in the Christian love and compassion department. What breaks my heart is that we knew some of these men before they were ‘trained’ by TMU/TMS, and they were NOT like this then! It’s The Stepford Wives in real life.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
HUG: BINGO! If you deem yourself one of the ELECT, then nothing that you do whatsoever can be held against you. In the end, you will be rewarded by God in Heaven that He chose you over that despicable reprobate over there.
@ Jenny:
My reply was to ishy. Don’t know how Law Prof got in there!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Remember Scott Peterson, while being interviewed by Diane Sawyer, when he cried those crocodile tears?
Barbara Roberts wrote:
I got my “smart advice” straight from Wilson of Moscow, who has done precisely this with considerable success, as you are aware. And hardly anyone but “Ulysses” noticed. http://www.moscowid.net/2017/09/21/the-crec-presiding-ministers-report-the-guessing-game-is-over/
ishy wrote:
Have Masters and/or GCC actually been spreading Jane’s real identity?
Not that I don’t believe you Ishy, but are you able to give links?
I am aware that some within the GCC tribe are saying they know Jane’s real identity. But I wasn’t aware they were spreading her name round in public.
Dave A A wrote:
Thanks Dave A A !
I will look up that link.
I’m reading through all of this account am a little confused as to why “Jane’s” account of events is automatically deemed 100% true. Can someone explain that to me? Why would anyone bank on only one account of something that happened 11 years ago. Also, why don’t you post the whole police reports with the names and other info redacted? It looks like you have cut out a lot of information and are only giving us what you want us to see. Im am really curious about this. Can someone give me a good answer?
Lea wrote:
Oh my, Lea. I thought exactly of that adage as well. Truth really is stranger than fiction. To make this up, and then have her story on the Internet? Nah…not buying it. And the fact that the Covering Their Bu__s Statement from TMS shows clearly that they know who this student is, confirms to me that they are quite aware of the facts. They just don’t want to admit to them.
Jenny wrote:
Even schuhplattler? 🙂
Jenny wrote:
Exactly, Jenny! She was disciplined for being an UPPITY woman who needed to be Put In Her Place.
@ dee:
In my post, I did indicate that the law varied from state to state. The link I provided covers the issue of one-party and two-party states.
California, where Jane was sexually assaulted, is a two-party state where violations can incur both civil and criminal penalties. So is the state where I live. The person to whom I was replying in my first post seemed unaware that they were giving advice that could potentially put the reader at risk.
Evidence that her grades were changed from A’s to F’s has not surfaced. It is a very serious allegation that needs to have evidence to back it up. John wrote:
A follow-up post on Marci Preheim’s blog, “Regarding Jane.”
http://www.marcipreheim.com/2017/09/25/regarding-jane/
Has anyone considered that Holland’s actions would in many countries make himliable to a charge of perverting the course of justice by seeking to cover up a rape. It’s certainly the behaviour which had meant the loss of all credibility of the a Catholic Church in Ireland. It’s also utterly disgusting.
Barbara Roberts wrote:
I do mean they are claiming to be spreading her identity. But these are to people who are affiliated with people at TMU/Grace and are not ones that directly deal with the situation. So, to me, that would be the same thing as sharing it with the public. It could be that they really aren’t, but by their own words, they are spreading her identity.
Moreover, the more people they tell at Grace, the more likely it will be for someone to out her publicly. Marci’s new post just released a plea not to do that.
Phil Johnson’s daughter-in-law claimed “to know who she is” in her FB response. I’ll link to Julie Anne’s screenshot, but I did go on Facebook and verify it. https://twitter.com/DefendTheSheep/status/912053120405872640
The professor, Fred whatever, also claimed the same thing on Twitter but he deleted his tweets when people confronted him.
BTW, one of Johnson’s FB posts confirmed TMU/Grace believed the content of the police report and that Jane was disciplined because of it. They have never denied the disciplinary actions Masters took, which are so egregious their accreditation could be at stake. As I said before, they are telling their people she used the police report to lie about having sex, drinking, and doing drugs. It’s not even a good story because they cannot prove her allegation is false. This is all just their own opinion and not a legal one they are allowed to make.
Honestly, if I were Macarthur, I’d get his people to stop talking, because they are going to make sure to indemnify them.
Grace wrote:
I am sure there is evidence to back it up Grace.
Do you work for a social media consulting firm? I ask because your comment is a typical tactic used by such companies.
This is really disgusting. The whole handling of it. Institutions Christian or secular act the same. It’s all about protecting the institution and screw the victim.
@ ishy:
She must erased it because I didn’t see it on her FB feed.
ishy wrote:
Thanks Ishy. That was my understanding too.
I really appreciate your comments on this post, Ishy. 🙂 🙂 🙂
Donna D. wrote:
It's not on her feed. It's on the thread in the link listed in Julie Anne's tweet of her comment.
Barbara Roberts wrote:
I have my own sources on all of this, too, but the GCC people are pretty much putting themselves in the pit with their own words.
Once again, the only right have handled this situation would be to announce they were launching a long-term, full-scale investigation with outside, unconnected verification while at the same time making better policies for handling rape and putting education in place to reinforce those policies
The fact that they are going on a full-scale crusade to make Jane a liar while allowing their staff and family members to make all sorts of asinine claims on social proves Jane’s allegation perfectly–they handle rape reports badly.
Just published: Jane’s Story and How The Leaders Failed Her – by Becky Castle Miller.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2017/09/25/janes-story-leaders-failed/
@ Barbara Roberts:
What an excellent article! Shame on everyone who re-abused Jane! They need to repent pronto and seek her forgiveness.
Don Fisher wrote:
What in Jane's account do you not believe? I believe she is telling the truth.
@ Don Fisher:
For me, it adheres to a pattern I have seen with these religious authoritarian groups for over 12 years since I have been researching not only their beliefs but their practices.
Don Fisher wrote:
For me, I have deemed it ‘plausible’, which means it reads true for now. The existence of a police report proves that part of her story is true.
I have seen enough stories of similar responses to such incidents that it is easy to believe and the *responses* by such places need to be addressed regardless of Jane’s particular incident. All of the things she says she was told I have heard others were told in similar instances. Don’t ruin the guys life, don’t report, submit to what your ‘authority’ tells you to do even if it’s stupid, you are equally guilty…
BTW, Women are told if they do not report immediately to the police, they should not be believed. She reported, and in that way is a ‘good’ victim. And yet, was still treated terribly. Maybe this should give people pause.
dee wrote:
Amen! +1!! This is THE question we need to ask. Where is the love of Christ demonstrated? Show me the love!
ishy wrote:
This has come up before at other so called Christian colleges. They use a report of assault to discipline the one assaulted for ‘honor code’ violations. Such a travesty!
ishy wrote:
Also, this would be incredibly stupid, because without the police report she would never have been ‘caught’ for those things, if she had been doing them. And making a false report to the police is a crime, iirc. So it would be really dumb to report a fake crime, to get out of a non-crime, that you weren’t in trouble for.
ishy wrote:
Yes. They prove themselves to be awful every time they open their mouths. It’s not hard to believe they were awful then, too.
Years ago I used to be a MacArthur Groupie. I read everything he (and Phil Johnson) published. I took great pride at the number of feet of my bookshelves that were dedicated to his books. Thankfully the Lord woke me out of that idolatry and I began to question what I was being taught. Especially on the subject of the Love of Christ. It was that one thing that I began to look for in whoever I was reading / listening to.
As the years have gone by (almost 30 now) I have noticed a dearth (actually, more like a famine) of teaching on the love of Christ in evangelicalism, and coincidentally a famine of the Gospel. (Sometimes they try to fool us by using that language, but they have changed the meaning.) TMS/GCC/GTY are merchants of a loveless, Christless philosophy of religion.
I had also heard stories from people connected to TMS and GCC about how things were run. And I wondered when the truth would come to light, and a truly horrific scandal (from their perspective) would come to light. Now it seems that it has.
I am truly sorry for Jane and her friends and family for the sins of TMS/GCC. She is very courageous to bring this to light. Hopefully there are people around her that are showing her the love of Christ. Exposing the sins of a religion that victimizes IS the loving thing to do. Kudos to all involved in shining the light.
@ Thersites:
As an elder in a Reformed church, my heart goes out to Jane and the pain and trauma she has suffered. Many have assumed that such abuse toward victims is inherent in Reformed Theology. I would disagree. I have witnessed and been told of cases of abuse of spiritual authority across denomonational lines. I believe one of the main problems in these churches is their ecclesiology, i.e., their is no higher court that pastors and elders are accountable to leaving the member no avenue for redress of grievances. Jane, having a wife that is a survivor of rape, I cant imagine a counselor asking such questions let alone being brought into the same room with the rapist. Tragically, often in church, men are in positions of leadership that are bullies, and downright fools. Shepherds are called by Christ to protect the flock that Jesus purchased with His own blood. Surely this includes caring for those shattered by rape and seeking justice for those victimized by such abusers. Jane, I am sorry you did not receive the pastoral care and justice you were entitled to. My prayer is God will heal your wounds and deliver justice in this situation.
Don Fisher wrote:
Don, you may find this article relevant to your question: “Issues of Language: Removing Neutrality Toward Abusers and Negativity Toward Survivors.”
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/12/19/issues-of-language-removing-neutrality-toward-abusers-and-negativity-toward-survivors/
It was posted last year on Spiritual Sounding Board, related to the case of Tullian Tchividjian who, it turned out, had engaged in serial sexual misconduct. It took a number of years for some of the women he victimized to share their accounts and be believed. Here’s the opening of that article:
Later on, the article looks at specific ways that those in power tend to control the narrative, and it ties in with issues of the American justice system that affect our views of standards of evidence. This is relevant to your concerns about why we believe a victim’s story or not.
I have some final thoughts on different assumptions we have in approaching the narratives of those who’ve survived sexual assault or other forms of violence, and I’ll put those in a separate comment soon. Meanwhile, I hope the above thoughts are helpful in responding to your questions, Don.
How many “Dees” are posting on this thread? Is it two? Is it three? I can’t keep count. In the words of Martin Brody, “You’re going to need a bigger blog“.
Or perhaps Shakespeare – To Dee, or not to Dee, that is the question.
Don Fisher wrote:
Additional thoughts on your questions, Don: As a research writer, I have developed over a dozen case studies on abuse of spiritual authority over the past 10 years. A few of them involved forms of sexual misconduct, most involved extensive cover up by networks of associates and/or organizations related to the perpetrator(s). Three of the longest case studies took 300 hours each to research and write, the next longest took at least 150 hours. I have also written or co-authored a number of articles related to various forms of abuse and violence, including “systemic abuse,” meaning that organizations related to the reported perpetrator(s) show patterns of protecting “their people” and mistreating survivors.
With that background, I find it far easier to believe Jane’s account of what happened than not, despite the events having taken place 11 years ago and there potentially being some gaps and inconsistencies. Here are a few of the key assumptions and experiences I come to her narrative with:
(1) Extensive academic research on sexual assault has shown that ONLY 2% to 8% ARE FALSE REPORTS. This means that 9 out of 10 reports are TRUE — so why should we assume any given report is automatically false until fully and irrefutably proven, instead of start by assuming the report is true unless carefully and coherently shown to be false?
The research that backs up those statistics can be found in this article by Dr. Christy Sim: “False Reports of violence & assault are not as common as society believes.” It is helpful for the range of research locations used (multiple countries and continents), and for her suggestions on how to interpret results. Read the article and related research available in her list of links, and see what you think.
https://drchristysim.wordpress.com/2016/04/17/false-reports-of-violence-assault-are-not-as-common-as-society-believes/
(2) It takes courage for survivors to go public with their account of what happened, especially when there are indicators of “systemic abuse” at work. When it is in the interests of people in power and their organizations to protect their public reputations, inside enforcers and outside endorsers typically use very specific tactics to negate and invalidate anything/anyone threatening to the positive profile those organizations put forth. When victims know there will be that kind of intense push-back, why would they subject themselves to that for the sake of a lie?
Also, many of the tactics used to discredit a survivor’s story don’t rely on facts or logical reasoning, but on bad-faith motives attributed to the victim. Or, they rely on the assumedly positive reputation of the institutional people involved (“If you knew this man like I do, you’d know he’d never do/say that!). So, when I see these kinds of things emerge, I see it as a potential indicator of shut-down and cover-up at work — and I seek to find what facts are behind them.
If you’re interested in more detail of what I’ve learned about systemic abuse and how organizations attempt to quash negative publicity, there’s a long-form article on my futuristguy website. See the link at the top of the blog for “Responsibility for Spiritual Abuse (Compilation of Posts).”
(3) People who are traumatized by sexual assault and other forms of violence often have difficulty putting together fragmented pieces of information and evidence. Two aspects to this.
First, if they are dealing with PTSD, that can affect their ability to recall more than fragmentary “memory chunks” at any given time, and those recollections can occur in the form of flashbacks that trigger emotional responses like anxiety, fear, etc. The fragmented and emotion-evoking nature of recalling the trauma makes it difficult to get the details out.
Second, many victims do not have anyone to listen to them as they talk through what happened, and help them process it. So, it takes time to get the pieces out and glued together into as coherent an account as possible. It’s like working on a huge puzzle where all the pieces are picture-side down and there’s no picture on a box lid to guide the way to put it together.
For one survivor of physical, emotional, and verbal abuse I worked with periodically on getting her account of experiences written out, that process took about 7 years. There were some significant time gaps in the middle where she went silent for various reasons. All the bits and pieces were available for much of that time, but they didn’t emerge in order and so it didn’t make sense yet chronologically. And each time of recalling a particular event often had a slightly different angle on it, or sometimes one detail dropped off and a new one or two added. So, at the end of the 7-year period, it still took me work over several months to get a coherent narrative together that had the maximum amount of detail available, and in chronological order that would make sense to those reading it.
And those are key reasons why, simply put, I believe Jane.
@ Anonymous:
In recent years, blogs have given voices to victims who have been silenced and shamed. Unfortunately, total exposure seems to be the only way to get Christian orgs, churches, and constituents to seek truth and pursue justice. Raising an outrcry — loud enough and long enough — that eventually gets insiders to demand truth takes time, but this is how it starts. You have some courageous sisters and brothers who’ve travelled this road, Jane. Praying for you as you endure this first stage of response from TMS & TMU, their constituents, etc. and in the days ahead. People will be shocked and will refuse to believe and will say terrible things in their ignorance. You are loved and lifted up in prayer by everyone who has ever been told they’re ruining the life of a godly man by going public with his crimes or dragging the name of Jesus through the mud by calling Christian institution to accountability. God can handle His reputation and has done so over and over. He has no need of men to protect it. He asks us instead to seek justice for the oppressed. Thank you to Marci for doing just that, and Wartbug Watch for picking up the story.
@ Deb:
Deb,
Did you do your due diligence to verify her claims? There are a few that can easily be substantiated:
1.) She says, “They have just started letting women into the program. I am one of two women in a room full of men.” This is a false claim on her part that is easily verified by other women that were in the program. Women have been in the biblical counseling program from the beginning and during that particular year (2003), there were more than two woman in the program. I talked to one that can name many women. Also, this fact can be substantiated by calling the school and getting the facts.
2.) She says, “Four of the seminary students live together and I know three of them.” and “The stranger is carrying me to the living room where the same friends and seminary students are drinking beer and watching a movie.” According to her claims, all four of these seminary students live together and they all were a part of this alleged rape…either by actually participation or in the condoning of the act. The police report should state where the suspect resides and who else resided at this location. Deb, you have the report. What does it say? If the investigating officer was skilled in any way in his job, he would have had to verify all of these claims that she made. All of these men that she claims were there are accessories to the crime. This would be in the report. What does the report say?
3.) She says, “Furthermore, my perpetrator is in the seminary. He will be held accountable for his actions.” The police report has to state his name….is that correct? Call the seminary and verify that he went to the seminary and was at the seminary during that year. Again, Deb, you have the report.
4.) She says that Rick Holland says, “He has admitted to everything he has done. He has acknowledged his sin and that this relationship was not consensual and he has repented. Look at him, he is crying.” This is still just her testimony. Deb, were you there? Did you hear Rick Holland say that? Of course you were not there. Of course you did not hear him say that. That is my point. We are only hearing from her and her account. Why should I believe her? Especially when the suspect was not convicted of anything. If it was true, then she should have gone to the police and told them what Rick Holland had said. In addition, we may never know what actually happened in that meeting. As far as I know those counseling meetings are confidential and Rick Holland cannot divulge what was said in those meetings. But the fact is that if the suspect did make this admission of guilt, “Jane” would have/should have gone to the police with it. It would have been a slam dunk at that point for the police.
5.) She says, “They are changing my three years of earned college credits from A’s to F’s. I have flunked out of college.” …..?????? This is actually impossible for a school to do. Once grades are posted each semester, they are sent to a centralized government entity. The only way that a grade can be changed is if the student retakes that class and does better in the class than the previous time. At that point, the grade and subsequent GPA is adjusted to reflect the higher grade. The original grade is never erased and is still in the government archives. It is illegal and IMPOSSIBLE for a school, public or private, to reverse a grade from “A’s to F’s”. This is a statement of hers that can easily be substantiated by her by providing her transcript…pre and post. Deb, did you verify this claim of hers? Did you call to verify that A’s can be turned to F’s?
I’m just asking people to think through some of these statements and claims with some logic. Set aside the emotion that you have over rape and this institution and these men and women.
I know that this is probably hard to do…rape is a awful sin and crime, but just because a woman makes a claim does not mean that she is automatically telling the truth. ESPECIALLY since the police didn’t think that she was telling the truth after they did their investigation and found no evidence to convict the suspect.
Deb, can you please post the whole police report with the names and information redacted? I would still love to see what was actually said in its entirety. I know that this is not a problem since “Jane” is still anonymous.
Lydia wrote:
This still does not deal with the facts that can be verified. You are throwing these men under the bus because of your past experiences. Take a step back and look at the facts that can be verified. Also, you are only hearing one side of the story. Just because an alleged victim makes a claim does not make it true.
Lea wrote:
Actually the fact that the police report exists proves only that she made a claim of rape. The police have to make a report of what her claims are. This does not prove that the alleged rape actually happened, just that she is making a claim of an alleged rape.
The fact that a police report exists and no further action by the police actually puts all the blame on the police, not the institution(s). If the police had convicted the suspect then I would image that the institution(s) would have reacted in a very different way.
As I have said above in a reply to Deb, everything that “Jane” says is still ONLY her account. It does not establish that she is telling the truth. We do know though, from the writings of Marci Perheim, that there was an agenda against this institution.
@ Don Fisher:
Are you a lawyer on retainer to MCU?
Or one of PASTOR MacArthur’s staff?
@ Burwell:
I am Dee.
No, I too am Dee.
lol.Don Fisher wrote:
We are doing that. Police report, verified. Similar stories from the same school that show a pattern. Witness testimony from a student who noted Jane’s trauma. It’s not anyone’s fault that you dismiss all evidence because you want to believe it isn’t true.
But if you are going to disbelieve any story you hear because someone didn’t bring you reams of evidence, you are going to have to stop talking to people entirely because that’s not how things work. I could tell you stories with no proof and that doesn’t make them untrue. Unverified is not the same thing as falsified. Why is this so hard to understand? Are you supposed to not tell your story because someone might not believe? Are you somehow required to believe one over the other? Because when you say ‘don’t believe Jane’, you are saying to believe the other guys. Who have, btw, presented NO evidence. At this point, that puts them behind Jane as far as I’m concerned.
RLH wrote:
On this we agree.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Every time TWW exposes a corrupt ManaGAWD or Institution, suddenly all these “concerned citizen” attack dogs come out of the woodwork sounding exactly like Grace and Don Fisher.
Grace, Don:
PROVE YOU’RE LEGIT AND NOT JUST ANOTHER SOCK PUPPET ATTACK DOG.
(Oh, and we’ll apply exactly the same Rules of Evidence which you apply to Jane.)
Jenny wrote:
My Dear Wormwood:
I refer you to my previous epistle on Semantics, specifically the redefinition of words into their “diabolical meanings”.
Your Ravenously Affectionate Uncle,
Screwtape
Jenny wrote:
They have been Re-Educated into Correct Thought, Comrade.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
My suspicions are usually aroused when someone drops in with the “you don’t have all the facts” but it is useful to me if we can keep it to reasoned analysis and not impugn motives.
Don Fisher wrote:
Obviously. But it proves that she made a claim at the time, that involved talking to police and all that entails. That is proof that part of her story is true.
Don Fisher wrote:
Oh joy. The emotion/logic diss. You do realize you can have both, at the same time, right?
May wrote:
While “making long prayers to justify themselves”.
One comment I have is the title of this blog entry. Why wasn't Rick Holland's name part of that title? Reading Jane's original blog post it sounded like Rick Holland was the one who did the real "dirt work" to her vs. John McArthur though I do realize that McArthus is a bigger name.
Either way a real sad story. As others have said I am sure that the school and others will huddle around to protect the institution vs. expose the sin.
Thersites wrote:
It’s interesting because this is the exact thing that has been said by people in pretty much every scandal that has been exposed. Somebody pops up and says ‘I go to X church and trust me, ‘you don’t know all the facts’. And then the evidence comes out and whoops, yes. We do.
Rape is hard to prove, in general which makes it a hard crime to prosecute. That doesn’t mean I will disbelieve people I know when they tell me what happened to them unless there is evidence to prove it didn’t happen either.
Oh and I meant to mention earlier, I appreciate Dee mentioning the medical issues surrounding a concussion and alcohol/drugs. Bad combo.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
No and no.
Lea wrote:
I understand that this but it seems like the initial responses have been emotion based without considering that there actually facts that can debunk claims. Emotions do not overrule facts.
@ Don Fisher:
*Agenda*. hmm…the typical ho hum response from a person who knows all about *having an agenda.”
Don-knock yourself out and prove that we only posted *part*. of the report in order to hide some vital detail. It is all codswallop. Why would we do such a thing? The entire police report is out there and we would eventually be proven to be liars. The one thing we do not do on this blog is lie. The moment we lied about something, our reputation for honesty would be shot. That is too important to us.
PS-It is not a lie to believe the victim.
@ Don Fisher:
I have a real problem with your response and I am going to start getting tough on the matter. You have not once spoken about any concern for the victim. You are just one more *protector of the agenda driven men and women* who will seek to destroy anyone who does not think that TMU et all hung the sun and the moon. Your idols are sinners just like everyone else. No better.
From this point on, either express concern for the victim or get lost.
Don Fisher wrote:
Ditto for you as well. And you think you have the *facts.* You have no more facts than anyone else.
@ Don Fisher:
Don, I will assume the best and assume you are trying to be fair. But this is the thing-why on earth would someone lie about this? I think that is a way bigger burden of proof than just taking Jane at her word would be. To play devils advocate-would it not be wiser to investigate and assume that she is telling the truth and then if evidence arises otherwise, deal with it? Because if you go into a story like that automatically assuming it to be a lie that is the most extreme cruelty imaginable to a rape victim. I never told anyone about mine, and it happened decades ago. Was I a perfect angel? No. But that did not mean I deserved to be raped. And yet for years I blamed myself and kept silent. My rapist is deceased now so there is no purpose in saying anything but right now there are so many men getting away with so much while everyone is treating women as if they are all brazen Jezebel liars. Do you expect me to believe that pleases the Lord in any way shape or form? Do you expect me to think that honors the Lord? And for that matter, did you all forget the story of the rape of Tamar in Scripture? Men kept silent and all hell broke loose.
Oh, and I believe Jane.
@ brad/futuristguy:
Love your comment. Dn Fisher doesn’t seem to realize that his response is one of the reasons that victims fear coming forward. Compassion and kindness is lacking in lots of these folks.
Don Fisher wrote:
It most certainly does and we didn’t post that at the request of the victim. Nope- you are not getting his name from us and there is a name and TMU knows it.
Don Fisher wrote:
Where are your facts then? Is it not emotional of you to immediately assume she is lying?
Let’s stop pretending emotions only go one way. Disbelieving her because of who she accuses is an emotional response too, not a logical one. Pure logic would look at the evidence presented and say, hey. Here is some witness testimony and evidence she is telling the truth. Let’s see what else unfolds.
All this talk about throwing men under the bus is hardly pure logic.
Thersites wrote:
I am not a lawyer nor a pastor. I just want to know why everyone jumped on this bandwagon hook, line, and sinker without actually analyzing some facts that can be verified. I was not there when the alleged rape happened and neither were you. I appreciate that you desire to “keep it to reasoned analysis and not impugn motives” I hope that it didn’t come across that I was trying to call into questions her motives. I only stated the motive that Marci had talked about on her blog.
@ bunny:
Bless you bunny. Do men understand that all women have stories or have heard stories that are true but can no longer be proven?
@ Burwell:
ROFL. Julie Anne Smith was considering hopping on a plane and coming to see if I was alright since it seemed that I underwent a complete theology transplant. You can be darn sure if something like that happened, my husband would have me hospitalized and worked up for a brain tumor or stroke.
Lea wrote:
The logical thing would be to take her claims and the claims of others and see where the pieces fall. Emotion doesn’t come into play at that point. To only hear one side and deem that as 100% true IS emotional and not based upon substantiated facts. I provide a list of facts above that I thought could be easily verified by either party and thus would establish credibility to “Jane’s” story if it was true. Either way you still are jumping on the band wagon of someone you don’t event know…without any concrete proof. That is what I’m pointing out.
Don Fisher wrote:
ooooooooh -Marci’s motives now. And Don’s motives are as pure as the driven snow…
Sorry, Don, but everyone, you and John MacArthur included have mixed motives. The moment the *motive* word gets entered, it becomes silly. *My motives are more pure than your motives, especially if you are not part of my little group.”
As one of my pastors often said “Even on my best days my motives are mixed.”
You have no idea of anyone’s motives unless God is now confiding in you. And if you think he is, you need to go and get some help.
Don Fisher wrote:
What a wonderful idea. The very fact that this is being talked about now is a way to open the windows and let light in.
Don Fisher wrote:
Fascinating- I suppose that you think OJ is innocent and Casey Anthony didn’t do anything to her little girl because they got off.
Sorry-I, you and everyone else makes judgements every day of the week based on our thoughts. I bet you have all sorts of judgements on the purveyors of this blog but will not share them because you know you will get your head bit off.
It is my right, in this country, to believe the testimony of anyone I want to believe. I happen to do more reading on the ones that I support than others do.
So, why don’t you try this? We have been writing for 8 1/2 years about victims. Find the ones that we were wrong about.
Don Fisher wrote:
No. I hear a story, and I chose to believe or not believe based on what I know. Sometimes I chose to wait for more information (and I reserve the right to change my mind – a la Keynes) You are welcome to not believe. You are not welcome to insist on what anyone else may believe or not believe.
You see facts. You dismiss them in favor of facts unseen. I might believe you unemotional if you were not so…concerned…
Don Fisher wrote:
Don, when you say this, you lose credibility, because it is not necessarily true. One would not expect to see everything in a police report, one would not necessarily expect to see all the evidence regarding all potential accessories to a crime in any given police report. I kind of know how this thing works, how it often goes in practice. I’ve done criminal defense work when I was in legal practice and have taught the law, evidence, white collar crime, etc., at the university/college level for going on 15 years. I have three family members who spent significant portions of their career in law enforcement. When I worked in private security, often hand-in-hand with law enforcement, I had to prepare reports that could have been a part of criminal evidence in a court of law, not entirely unlike police reports. Again, one would not necessarily expect to see everything in a police report and the lack of something in a police report does not mean it did not happen.
All the time people get convicted on the basis of things that happened that are testified to by witnesses or the victim themselves that never were even hinted at in police reports.
What you need to do is do your due diligence and not just make it up as you go along. Perhaps educate yourself, as it has taken me the better part of 25 years to do, and then you won’t sound like a simpleton. If you have some significant knowledge in this field, then by all means divulge it, at which point we’d be essentially two lawyers debating an issue. Fine. If not, just drop it, buddy, because you’re out of your element. Then again, you’re probably just another one stop coward and we’ll never hear from you again.
dee wrote:
My reference was to the motive that Marci said with regards to why she was posting the story by “Jane”. I was not implying that knew what Marci’s motives were.
Don Fisher wrote:
Try this one on for size Mr. Fisher:
In the criminal justice system it’s generally assumed that one is innocent until proven guilty.
Here at TWW when it comes to spiritual and criminal sexual abuse we have a variation which holds that the victims are believable until a preponderance of evidence can show otherwise.
So far, that balance is in favor of Jane Doe.
Does that help?
Rick Holland is a pastor at Mission Road Bible Church in Prairie Village, Kansas. This does not surprise me, as over the last 20 years or so, MRBC has systematically removed all women from any form of leadership (including working with children), and demanding total submission to its pastor. I was just talking about MRBC last night with a friend, and talking about what some of their bizarre behavior involved. Beware, my friends who attend this church.
Muff Potter wrote:
Well stated and succinct — thanks for that, @Muff Potter. It’s a key part of what I was trying to get at but my comments tend toward long form, and it takes long to write short.
For those interested in some details on issues of evidence, there’s a section I wrote about it on the link below. See section 3. Types of “Threshold of Evidence” Required ~ and ~ Spoliation of Evidence. It includes terms like “beyond a reasonable doubt,” “preponderance of evidence,” and “reasonable belief.”
https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/resources-for-research-writing-on-situations-of-spiritual-abuse/
Muff Potter wrote:
Also, because of this, the criminal justice system works to the benefit of a rapist.
We are not the criminal justice system.
dee wrote:
Dee,
It looks like I have really stirred things up here. 🙂
How about I tell everyone about the time that you raped me? Do you really want me to tell that story? Jane has inspired me to bring this to the world.
@ Don Fisher:
It doesn’t matter, Don, we are not in court where evidence is important. TMU has already conducted their own kangaroo court which the victim started to cooperate. (My hope is that other victims will refuse such after reading her story and how evil and corrupt they are)
I am all about due process and I am very serious about warning Christians not to allow churches or even Unis to have their own stacked quasi kangaroo courts and processes.
Every authoritarian religious leader in the world accuses people of not having “facts”. Same types will declare there needs to be 3 witnesses to a child molestation. Go figure. I get that this sort of thinking works in the church bubble but it just doesn’t work out in the bigger world. Sorry. Your facts allegation does not scare me. You want the blue stained dress for court.
As to the other side of the story, I have been following these types for many years now and I rarely believe what they say, anyway. One learns that it’s a business that has very little to do with Jesus Christ. The leaders on the other side of the story have bully pulpits to speak from including social media where their adoring fans hang on each word. They chose to use social media to call the victim a liar. Where I come from that’s like the first shot in a war.
Don Fisher wrote:
Is that a false statement? Of course it is. But if I had actually put that out as being true, what would that do to you and your reputation without people verifying facts about that statement? Should everyone automatically believe me? What if I wrote a long and detailed story about it? Is it then true?
@ Don Fisher:
You can tell your story Don. And people can choose to believe it or not. If you lie they can sue you for libel or slander.
It’s why I have a lot of respect for people who publish the victims experience.
TMU know who she is.
Don Fisher wrote:
This only makes you look ridiculous.
Here is something for you to chew on. I’ve been reading and commenting here for 6 years or so. Dee and Deb don’t post anything without verifying their information. I’ve never known them to have to retract what they wrote because of incorrect information being provided, but I believe they would if such information came to their attention.
Don Fisher wrote:
I am not trying to minimize claims of rape. I am heartbroken for the people that have had to endure something as horrible as this. My original and continuing point is that claims about TMU and Rick Holland and John MacArthur are unsubstantiated and yet everyone automatically believes “Jane”. Do you know Rick Holland? Are you 100% sure he said this?
But why would “Jane” lie about this? I don’t know, but I can say for certain that this is still only one side of the story.
STILL, you have not produced the whole police report. You have only taken small pictures of certain lines of the document. Take the document, scan the whole document, redact pertinent personal info and then post the whole thing online. Its really not that hard.
Lydia wrote:
This is the part that they can’t stand.
Don Fisher wrote:
The police don’t convict anyone, or at least they shouldn’t. It is not their job.
Bridget wrote:
I ackwoldeged the fact that this statement was false and I intended it to be ridiculous. But who are you to say that to me. What if I had actually intended that claim to be serious? Your response would be so harsh! I cannot believe that you would not believe every word that I had said. Of course you should have believed those words. Even if I had written a whole story about it you would still evaluate the claims against facts.
My point is that facts have not been presented. Until then I have suspend judgement….either way.
Lea wrote:
I don’t mind the statement. I do mind that people don’t seem to think critically when it comes to cases like these.
Bridget wrote:
You are correct. More accurately, I should have stated that the police never had enough evidence to continue with the case and it be brought to trial.
@ Don Fisher:
I did not know CJ Mahaney or Mark Driscoll personally, either. But looking at their patterns of behavior and what they taught over the years had me believing the horror stories coming out of both– early on. Same with McArthur and his minions.
@ Don Fisher:
You believe they don’t think critically because they don’t’ agree with you. That’s not logical.
Consider, for a moment, that people here may have MORE experience and knowledge of this sort of thing than you do. Consider that they bring all of that to the table when evaluating the facts. Consider that believing the victim is actually completely logical and disbelief illogical, based purely on a numbers game…ie if only 2-8% of victims are lying, it is LOGICAL to believe initially unless evidence otherwise is presented.
Don Fisher wrote:
The police did not say they didn’t think she was telling the truth. Where did that come from?
The police didn’t say they found NO evidence to convict (prosecute). Where did you come up with this statement?
This seems to be testing information to me.
Also, this post is about how Jane was treated by TMU and the church when she reported the information to them. They accused her of all kinds of things, without proof, and punished her for their beliefs about her . . .
Bridget wrote:
I am glad to hear this information. If you go back up a bit, I posted five claims that “Jane” said in her account that can be easily verified by Dee and Deb. Since, as you have said, they have already verified their information they will have no problem posting the answers to my questions. I do want to know the answers to my questions above.
Bridget wrote:
“Twisting”
@ Lydia:
BTW Lydia, I’m moseying around the internet and found a Rick Holland, presumably the same Rick Holland?, series on dating. He has thus far approvingly quoted Piper and Doug Wilson (ugh!) and waxed poetic at length about how awesome comp is and how “mature masculinity is a sense of benevolent responsibility to lead, provide for, and protect women in ways appropriate to a man’s differing relationships”.
Also, this relevant Gem (which they all believe of course):
http://www.crosswalk.com/family/singles/defining-your-dating-style-the-guided-path-–-part-iii-1358371.html
@ Don Fisher:
Hey you may think nouthetic counseling is the best thing since sliced bread. You may think John MacArthur are great godly men. I don’t. As far as Jane’s story goes, I think they acted exactly to type. ( I am well aware of the extreme arrogance that comes from John MacArthur’s minions)
Maybe you heard that CJ Mahaney’s church brought a molested three year old to her molester for apologies all around cos “we are all sinners”. That’s how that works thinks.
These groups are thought reform shepherding cults.
Only a monster brings a victim in to meet with her rapist without prior warning. That’s the way these guys roll. .
The biggest mistake Jane made was trusting TMU and thinking it was Christianity. .
Lea wrote:
Yes to what you’ve said, @Lea.
And, @Don Fisher, unless I missed it, I don’t think you’ve engaged with that strong conclusion from extensive research about false reports being less than 1 in 10.
I am *not* against seeking information from all sides. I *am* against the default bias to disbelieve and diss the account of a victim, and against the default bias to give people in positions of authority an automatic pass because of their institutional role.
Don Fisher wrote:
I hate to break it to you, Don, but no one is required to prove these things to you.
@ Lea:
Yes his name has come up in those circles quite a bit over the years. Always had the impression he was looking for the really big gig as his loyalty pay off. Maybe, in his world, he hit the big time with John MacArthur. But he’s definitely one of them.
All I can do is warn people to run as fast as they can away from these groups.
Bridget wrote:
You are right, the police did not say they believe her or not…I don’t know that and neither do you. We don’t have the report and I don’t think that is something they could say or not. I should not have said that.
You are correct on you second point also. I should have stated that there is not SUFFICIENT evidence to prosecute.
“Also, this post is about how Jane was treated by TMU and the church when she reported the information to them. They accused her of all kinds of things, without proof, and punished her for their beliefs about her . . .”
You are still only hearing “Jane’s” side of the story and thinking that it is 100% true. How do you know what they accused her of? How do you know that they even accused her of anything? Did you talk to Rick Holland or TMU or John MacArthur, or anyone else involved? Why do you believe her? Do you know her? Can you absolutely claim that what she is saying is true. Im asking questions that no one on this blog is asking to try to determine how credible her story is.
@ Don Fisher:
Again, Don, it’s because of the patterns. First we read all of your comment you wrote before you made that claim. It was incongruent to who we know you to be on this thread. And don’t try to tell me that perception has nothing to do with it. If that were the case rapist wouldn’t wear suits and ties to court when they normally wear cut off and T-shirts –as an example.
But notice I encouraged you to share your story. In this day and time it has become easier to do that with social media. Be prepared to be sued if you libel or slander. Be prepared to be ruined by people who want to go after you because you dared to speak ill of one of their gurus.
TMU has that right, too. But I doubt very seriously they would want discovery.
Lydia wrote:
Yep, Lydia. It’s in the carrying/living out their beliefs that we see their True Colors. I’m sad to say this, but I am not at all surprised that this occurred at TMU. All it takes is for a person to listen to MacArthur’s teachings on women, Patriarchy, and his staunch defense of ‘Bible Only’ (ACBC Counseling) to realize these folks have a very distorted view of life. I’ll go on to say that I won’t be at all surprised if Jane’s letter causes more people to surface who were also spiritually abused at TMU & GCC.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
brad/futuristguy,
You are correct, I did not engage with this statistic. I cannot get to everything that everyone is throwing at me. 🙂
I appreciate the stat but i don’t think that gives us a free pass to then claim that this story is 100% true.
Also, I appreciate your two longer replies above. I skimmed them and will go back and read them more thoroughly and the article that you linked me to. I find the very interesting.
Lydia wrote:
Now he’s talking about ‘defrauding’ your future spouse of your virginity, which I thought was a Gothard thing.
Don Fisher wrote:
Lol! Go sit through some rape or domestic violence hearings. I don’t think you have a realistic view of what passes for justice in this country.
Lea wrote:
You are correct Lea. I’m not wanting you to prove it to me. I can go get answers to some of the questions that I posed on my own. I can call the school and get information as to how many girls where in the biblical counseling program…etc. My question was to Dee and if she had done this. She still has not answered me. The answers to some of these questions will help to establish the veracity of “Jane’s” story.
Lea wrote:
Here’s one of the things that doesn’t make sense to me. Why would Jane use the police report to lie about having sex, drinking and doing drugs? After the awful things that happened to her, she could have just buried it all under the rug, continued with her classes at TMC and graduated. She wouldn’t have had to go through all of that humiliation of talking about her rape. The motivation they (defenders of TMU) give to Jane for using the police report makes no sense whatsoever to me. Why put yourself through all that pain and heartache of being interrogated, talking about the minute details of your rape all for the purpose of using it to lie?
Somebody help me out here please, because I cannot fathom Jane having done such a thing.
One reason I believe Jane is because its John Macarthur and his club. This guy has systematically separated 100’s of millions if not a billion Christians from the Christian faith. I E Catholics, EO, Most Charismatics, many Anglicans, “Liberals”, “Social Justice” folks, “evolutionists” (lol), Old Earth creationists, and that is just the people in the “faith”. He makes a living trashing other people’s faith tradition or lack of faith tradition. In all that we are expected to accept his presupposition that the universe is less than 10k years old, a that the theory of evolution has no evidence, that there were plants growing on the earth before the sun was formed, also that most mental illness issues are some type of sin or problem with sin. That bipolar and other mental health issues can be “cured by spouting bible verses at them. Good luck with that at Em Psyc services on Friday night. That women cant be preachers, that both people are “sinning” in an abusive relationship, then just take a gander at Pyromaniacs, that blog was ten years of mocking, humiliating, belittling, and proudly puffed up rhetoric. I give Mr. Turk one thing he actually wrote about that before he left Social Media.
I get Jane making mistakes in the timeline and in facts, just like in the Gospels, which by the way are “anonymous.” I will admit to being biased but I did not start out that way, I tried really hard to give JM and is ilk the benefit of the doubt but well, now if they told me the sky was blue I would open a window and check. The damage done to churches around the world with drones coming out from the collective. I tried to engage Mr. Johnson one time and the condescension and belittling were just too much. I believe Jane because what does she have to gain by bringing all this up if she does not hold to its validity. Dee and Deb take great pains to double check their facts, unlike Macarthur, especially where science is concerned. So I believe Jane and the many other people who stated their stories/observations.
Darlene wrote:
Anything is possible. But when you look at the story as a whole? Then you go with what’s most probable.
I don’t Jane getting any benefit out of this.
One look at her agenda told me enough. TMU micromanages the lives of the students. This place is cult like.
Given the built in mysogeny and there you go.
I consider Biblical counseling on the same level as witch doctoring.
Quack university. Quack degree.
Don Fisher wrote:
Don, that’s what we’re trying to do! The whole point of this was not to focus on Jane’s story, but to say, “Yo, there is a chronic problem at TMU in how they respond to claims of sex abuse.”
Yet, YOU are making it personal about Jane by focusing on the details of her alleged rape.
latest TMU statement http://2006allegations.com/
Julie Anne wrote:
Sorry, my wording was bad there. I was not clear. I meant to say that we should take the claims that “Jane” makes and the claims that the other party(s) (TMU, Rick Holland, John MacArthur) make/have made/will make and then see where the pieces fall. Parts of this story, that will help to validate the story of “Jane”, have not been substantiated. Thus her claims are just her side of the story.
Also, I appreciate you using the phrasing “alleged rape.” Her story of rape has still not been proved and unless things have changed this country, a suspect is innocent until proven guilty…not guilty until proven innocent.
Don Fisher wrote:
So, explain OJ Simpson and Casey Anthony-are they innocent?
Don Fisher wrote:
It does and I am not giving it to you.
Ken P. wrote:
Ken
Just to clarify. This is out of bounds here. If ANYONE has a problem with the WAY someone is making a comment contact us (Dee, Deb, GBTC) directly via email and we will deal with it.
Period.
End of discussion.
This matter is now closed. For everyone.
Don Fisher wrote:
Legally.
Morally? Nope. True or not true. Innocent or guilty. These things are not dependent on legal findings.
@ anonymous2006:
Can you reproduce the statement perhaps? I cannot get on the site atm.
Don Fisher wrote:
You are not here to truly understand. You are here to play gotcha. If you read her account carefully- she assumed he was from the seminary and there was a good reason for this. However, he is connected and it is most likely through Grace Church since Rick Holland counseled both of them at the same time unless TMU is now getting into counseling street people without an affiliation.
If you had really cared about the victim, you would have read this one much more carefully. Instead, you are attempting to build a case against the victim and it is quite evident.
Don Fisher wrote:
She *should have gone to the police?* Once again, you are attempting to denigrate her testimony. If you had wanted to truly understand you might have added that they asked her to recant her testimony to the police. She was being told to stay away.
anonymous2006 wrote:
Well, that’s a decided change in tone. It seems TMU is more open to the fact that the events occurred as stated.
From the statement –
I, for one, would not advise “Jane” to give TMU permission to anything on her behalf, anytime soon.
Mea culpa watch, day 4167: None as of yet.
Don Fisher wrote:
This one will be easy to prove and the TMU folks will have to do that. You do know they locked her out of her student Acct, right? You read that. And you think TMU will talk with me.
Did you verify with Rick Holland that I left him a voice mail message in order to *verify* his side of thing. He didn’t respond. And if you say “he doesn’t have to” then being able to verify something is moot.
dee wrote:
“Four of the seminary students live together and I know three of them. The fourth, a stranger who I have met maybe once, sits by me at dinner and asks if he can get me a soda. ” She did not assume, she made a statement that we are meant to believe as factual.
Burwell wrote:
I cannot read the rest of the statement but it appears a much stupider person wrote the first one.
@ Don Fisher:
TMU is not releasing any information. Rick Holland did not return my call. So tell me how to *verify?* First, though, since you are into verification, verify that I called Rick Holland.
http://2006allegations.com
Don Fisher wrote:
Using the “alleged” word does not imply that I do not believe Jane. The opposite is true. However, having experienced a defamation lawsuit once, I would rather not experience another.
Don Fisher wrote:
Codswallop! I didn’t think it factual but you, Don Fisher, has asserted it to be so it must be so you can try to score more points. I am sure they are patting you on the head.
WE will be known by our love for one another.
When we love one another, we prove that we love God and keep His commandments – 3x if you love, keep my commandments (I John 4).
Definition: agape – a purpose of making the loved one great and measure of it is how much one is prepared to do, give, & suffer as the means to that end.
God is love – meaning is known in the atonement: It is the cost at which justice is done in the work of redemption that the love of God is revealed and assured. For Paul, what God effects in Christ’s death, has reference, first of all, not to the needs of sinners, but to the concerns of His own Person, specifically His justice and holiness.
The question needs to be asked: How far is TMU prepared to do, give, and suffer to make Jane great?
Then we will know that the love of God abides within.
Burwell wrote:
I’m sure it helped that they got a lot of push back for failing to show an ounce of compassion for the victim. And it also might have been because they know many people have come forward to Marci, Dee, and I. This story is really not about Jane. She just got the ball rolling.
dee wrote:
I cannot verify that unless you provide proof that you did. At his point it is just your word.
Don Fisher wrote:
LOL.
Prove that it didn’t happen. Flip this. Your claim that it didn’t happen is unsubstantiated.
Reading another treatment of this story that mentions Tamar. Of note? Nobody accuses her of lying. Nobody claims her brother is a good man who would never do that. Or her father. Nobody blames her for what she is wearing except perhaps Bill gothard.
Lea wrote:
So, are we supposed to react like Spock when it comes to victims who report rape? I know that within certain Christian communities emotions are considered to be of the flesh and repudiated, dismissed and squelched. The very nature of the Incarnation is that Christ became human, and in His humanity He fully experienced emotions – crying, grieving, laughter, anger, etc. Experiencing emotions is part of what makes us human and humane.
As far as I’m concerned, there is something very wrong, i.e. – dysfunctional – with a person who has no emotional reaction when hearing about a rape story like Jane’s.
dee wrote:
You might want to re-read what I stated: “she made a statement that we are meant to believe as factual.” I never made an affirmation of her statement. I just asserted the logical conclusion of a sentence when someone states something. If I state that I went to the story last night. The logical conclusion is that I am stating something that I want you to believe. I could or could not have went to the store. But by making such a statement, I am obviously wanting you to believe it unless I have stated otherwise.
@Don Fisher, I think many people believe Jane because we have walked in her shoes. We have been raped then treated like garbage by the misogynistic Christians we were unlucky enough to have as parents and by the hateful churches we were naive enough to go to. Things that she says are so familiar.
ISIS and the Taliban have earned disrespect from me by the way they treat women, how they want women to live, what they want out of women. They have a very selfish misogynistic pattern. If a woman or girl says something either group has done to her, I believe her because they treat women as sex slaves, slaves for men, and like men matter and women don’t.
Don Fisher wrote:
You’re asking the flip side of this, to doubt her story. Why should we doubt it? I want to know why you are expressing skepticism.
Here’s something for you to chew on:
Why Don’t We Believe Women Who Say They Have Been Raped?
https://www.vogue.com/article/bill-cosby-uva-rape-campus-assault
Lea wrote:
I never said it didn’t happen. I am impartial to the statement until it is proven. Just because I don’t wholeheartedly believe her statement, doesn’t mean that I think that she didn’t do it…it just means I cannot verify it one way or the other.
>“Rick says something about apologizing for the dress I was wearing at the bar and for drinking alcohol. He says I caused this young man to stumble,”<
This is the same argument that many followers of Islam use (as to why women must wear clothing that covers all parts of their body)…that it is "the woman's fault for causing men to *stumble*". Nope – it is that the men who abuse have no spine, have never learned to be a disciplined person, take no responsibility for their actions and do not want to be held accountable. I would like to see the scripture which agrees with this assessment by the 'men of god' (definitely not men of God).
PS I grew up in a country that is 80% Muslim and have personally been told by believers of Islam the above statement.
Don Fisher wrote:
To repeat myself, codswallop. You are playing games and I know baloney when I see it. If you keep up with these word games, I may put you into slow moderation without warning.
Darlene wrote:
Many men in these patriarchal sort of cultures seem to have decided that men alone are ‘logical’ and women alone are ’emotional’. This is apparently proven by assertion *eyeroll*
RLH wrote:
While I’d have to meet someone in most cases to call them a bully, calling them a fool is much easier based on what they write and speak. They way I look at it, while most of the fools are not bullies, most of the bullies are also not fools. But the bullies like to have fools around them to show everyone how well liked and respected they are by sooooo many people.
@ Don Fisher:
PS: Do you know Frank Turk?
Julie Anne wrote:
JA, “Don Fisher” is doing exactly what Master’s/GCC trains people to do: deflect from the real issue by setting up a diversionary one, then get folks to discuss the diversion. Whether he is or is not associated with them doesn’t matter, IMO. He’s utilizing their techniques to derail the discussion and confuse people.
I am wondering who Don is protecting. Is it Rick Holland, John MacArthur, the rapist, the sick friends that lounged about as the girl was being sexually abused, all poor rapist in general.
Maybe he knows Jane and hates her because she had the outrageous unsubmissive audacity to conclude rape should be against the law.
I actually grew up with Christians that proved over and over that they did not even think child rape should be against the law. Of course, they had much of the same ideas about women and children as John MacArthur.
Daisy wrote:
dee wrote:
Who is that? Why do you ask?
Don Fisher wrote:
Did you read the main article? This post starts with referencing the statement by The Master’s Seminary, which is obviously “the other side!”
brad/futuristguy wrote:
It was an eye opener when one of the things that broke up some friendships in our small group was a comment by someone about some misconduct. His statement (not a quote) was basically “I know XXX personally and know he could not have done what you’re saying. I don’t care what evidence you have.” And while he was the only one who “said it” there there others who agreed and left the group.
Dee (the master) was in this group and can verify this went on.
Jenny wrote:
Indeed.
You know, in a reasonable organization even if a rape could not be proven if it is true that the accused was not a student, there was no reason to discipline Jane. And yet, I think all evidence will show that if nothing else, she was absolutely kicked out of school. The persons named in this report were named for terrible (practically abusive) counseling and for kicking her out of school. These are not going to be proven/disproven by rape. It is enough to know (which we do from the police report-which everyone acknowledges) that Jane claims to have been raped. That should garner compassion from normal people, not discipline. Period. It is not the school’s job to determine the truth of that report (although if the counseling information is true, the man confessed!).
The reason it is VERY easy to believe this type of counseling is because it is representative of their counseling towards women for all sorts of things.
I wonder why, Don, you keep mentioned whether the story is ‘100%’ truth? That sounds like a dodge too. If it’s only 98% true, should we throw it all out? Does that make it *better*??? No.
@ Lea:
My writing on that was a mess, but I think you can suss it out. It doesn’t matter if they could prove rape or not, their actions were still wrong. And Insane. And Abusive.
Don Fisher wrote:
How convenient for you. Life is much more messy than that and we are often required to make judgements before incontrovertible evidence is in. Yes, of course, we should be open to other possibilities but that does not preclude action such as pressuring intransigent institutions.
Lydia wrote:
Ditto here.
Not just the org itself, but look at all the little fans of J-Mac, or of this college, that are running around on this site, or JA’s twitter, or that lady’s (Marci) blog (e.g., the guy calling himself “Euro Christian”)…
who are extremely hesitant to give credence to the vic’s story to the point they are pretty much acting as apologists for the abusers and the abuser’s accomplices
….the accomplices being the lying rat weasels at these Christian universities who never, ever defend girls and women, or any victims of sexual assault.
The Christians under accusation always heavily invest in protecting their public reputation and the public image of the rapist or child molesting scum.
Always. And that usually includes publicly dragging the victim through the mud and/or claiming she is, or was, lying, or “played some part” in getting attacked (was wearing a short skirt, had been drinking, what have you).
The play-book on how most Christians, churches, and Christian universities and Christian employers handle these situations and choose to respond is so, so, sooooo predictable.
Lea wrote:
That is bad, true (I totally agree), but what really gets me is how they twist a guy pouring date rape drugs into a woman’s drink, then later, when she’s “out of it” (due to the drugs), forcibly pours alcohol down her throat, the “Christian” university insist that is an instance of her carousing (drinking, doing drugs, partying).
My message to them: No, you sexist dumb asses at Christian University, she was drugged against her will and had booze poured down her throat against her will.
She was exploited, taken advantage of. As a Christian University, you’re supposed to be opposed to men preying on women, not excusing it or downplaying it.
Lea wrote:
Precisely.
Exactly. They treated the rape as a violation of their honor code by the victim.
YES. Normal people treat rape victims compassionately. Master’s did not do this.
Because a core belief in this culture is that women are inferior beings who must submit to the authority of men. Not just their husbands. All men.
@Daisy
How to deal with rape victims.
Number 1) Bully them.
Number 2) Mock them.
Number 3) Belittle them.
Number 4) Dismiss them.
@ Thersites:
Don Fisher never commented on this blog until Jane’s Story. He is attempting to be *clever* but we have been around the block on this issue and know the drill.
Show up and pretend to be impartial. Just a concerned citizen.
Show little to no concern for the victim.
When asked questions about yourself, continue on with your original agenda.
Pretend you don’t know squat about the entities/people involved in this situation.
Discuss with your BFFs behind the veil how you are dominating them. They pat you on the head.and you get a tingle.
Don-I am putting all of your comments from this point forward into moderation and I will consider them one by one. I expect you to complain. However, unlike the men in your cadre, we gave you plenty of time to make your points in an expeditious manner. Now, it will go much slower but you are not banned.
Advice from a blogging pro: Next time, to be super duper sneaky, pretend you actually care about the victim. It’ll throw us off.
This is interesting:
2006allegations.com
and NOT
masters.edu/2006allegations.com
Why not put this on the domain for the school. Why create a separate domain. I suspect they don’t want this to show up in searches at the main school site of masters.edu. And by creating this separate domain they can make it go away (for most people) when the controversy dies down.
Please note this is all speculation and opinion by me.
Equifax did a similar thing with their recent security breach. To test to see if you might be affected you have to go to xxx instead of something on their primary domain of equifax.com they set up equifaxsecurity2017.com. This does several things. It keeps the testing off their web site. They can take it down at some point to make a lot of the in your face issues go away. But it also (for Equifax) create other problems. People have already created similarly named sites which can then be used to snag people’s information for bad uses.
This is just a really bad idea. For the school and Equifax.
A.Tumbleweed wrote:
I just wanted to say…
That criticizing J-Mac in particular and/or Christian Universities in general for how they victim blame and mistreat targets of rape and other wrong-doing does not make a person or blog “anti Christian,” or “anti conservative evangelical.”
I put that out there because there is a certain nutty anti-fan of this blog who misconstrues any legitimate and deserved criticisms of Christians or Christian denominations/ theology/ schools as being evidences of liberalism or motivated by hatred of conservative views or beliefs.
But it’s not motivated by any of those things.
If you are a conservative Christian, then it should concern you when abuse is perpetuated under conservative Christian teachings or schools, or covered up by such. See 1 Corinthians 5:9-14 in your New Testament.
Daisy wrote:
Heh. I think I said this on the other article. There is a sequence of events here and the woman involved can’t win. (almost as if it is designed that way!)
1. Violation happens. Woman reports to proper authorities.
2. ChurchManPerson assumes she is lying. Always.
3. Punishes her for incidental things (drinking, ‘almost dancing’) [which in this case were elements of the violation itself but since they don’t believe her…]
4. Blames her for sexual activity even though it was not consensual. Even though in this case he confessed! [Of course, JA shared an article the other day by ‘Christian counselor’ about how marital rape was also the fault of the woman and nouthetic counseling in general has that focus on so called ‘mutual’ sin] So again, can’t win.
5. Even when we have established that she did nothing wrong, we find things to blame her for like her outfit.
6. Once we have done that, we tell her what do (drop charges, apologize to rapist, do dumb counseling things) and then the coup de gras…
7. Kick her out of the church/school/other for not ‘submitting to authorities’ and listening to the man and whatever dumb, stupid, abusive, terrible things they’ve asked her do or admit to.
She can’t win, ultimately. If she balks at any point during the increasingly unwinnable situations, she is an unsubmissive rebellious jezebel who doesn’t know her place. And although she is told not to gossip, everyone else will cheerfully call her every name in the book when she is not around to defend herself.
It’s a very clear progression and has been repeated many times, in many such institutions.
Julie Anne wrote:
Glad to know facts don’t matter and this is really just a witch hunt. That’s rather shameful in and of itself. You want the accusations to be true and even if they’re not, well you’ll steam forward anyways. This movement loses credibility by the day for failure to be objective. That girls story is being lost in the desire for mob justice.
NC Now wrote:
I wondered about that myself, though I commented on it above. It is registered through Amazon and was created yesterday…so…who knows.
Deb wrote:
I think I have now changed all the link backs for the 2nd "Dee" to "Another Dee". If anyone spots any I missed please email me. GBTC
@ Wayne:
Codswallop #2 Do you know Don Fisher?
OK-You had your one try at this. Now, it is up to you to prove this is a witch hunt and you are just an unbiased person who only looks at the facts. You didn’t mention one fact in your silly comment.
What movement?
Whose losing credibility and the proof there of. (Discussions with the BFFs doesn’t cut it.
Whose not being objective? Proof?
How are you *being objective?*
Why do your call her a girl? Are you diminishing her as beneath you, a man?
Prove that her story is being lost. I am going to prove in the next post why it isn’t.
You are in slow moderation as of now. I am getting tired of this nonsense
@ Don Fisher:
Here are some facts about what college women face when they go to the authorities with rape allegations.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5500432
Don Fisher wrote:
You’re parsing way too closely here.
She said “in the room.” Which I took to literally mean in a room – four walls. As opposed to “a university has a degree program in Basket Weaving with 500 people majoring in that.”
You could have 500 people majoring in Basket Weaving (with 250 men and 250 women in total) but one day, when a class meets to discuss Basket Weaving, ten men in the program show up, only two women show up.
Why is there such skepticism? Why all the nit picking? I don’t get why you want to question and nit pick the victim out the ying yang but not hold the University to the same exacting standards?
Don Fisher wrote:
Is this your first rodeo?
I refer you above not just to my other posts on this, but see the ones by Brad Futurist Guy.
Don Fisher wrote:
And she has what to gain by making this all up? I don’t see how she benefits.
I can tell you right now (and as a conservative no less) I think J-Mac, his brand of theology, and most to all Christian Universities are sexist groups who are instantly prone to victim-blame rape victims…
And here is the clencher that should get your attention:
I’m not even claiming to be a rape vic who is being harassed by J Mac or this school.
A person does not have to be claiming what Jane is claiming to know that Christian Universities have big, big problems with how they frame rape, discuss it, and that their standard operating procedure is to BLAME WOMEN for having been raped by men.
Lea wrote:
Ding! Ding! Ding! Winner winner chicken dinner.
Jenny wrote:
And we have seen this before when someone starts commenting when a blog post upsets a certain institution.
Here’s what I don’t get: How could the accused be in Rick Holland’s office to face the accuser unless he went to the Master’s College? Holland and/or the school has no subpena power do they? Something doesn’t add up with the school’s side of this story.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yeppers. Absolutely.
dee wrote:
This is the brilliance of not deleting comments and allowing dialog. The comment thread above is very instructive for someone new to such issues. It demonstrates the need to pull back the institutional curtain when facing apparent injustice and not just smugly sit back and tell everyone to stay quiet and reserve judgement indefinitely.
In just the few years I’ve been reading here I can cite numerous examples where big names are accused of wrongdoing accompanied by plenty of evidence. Still someone often comes in out of the blue and tut-tuts everyone for rushing to judgement, yet when the verdict is clear Mr “You don’t have all the facts” never comes back with a mea-culpa. It tells me much about their often espoused “desire for the truth”.
Wayne wrote:
Movement? As in rent out the YUM center, sell tickets and bring in speakers? Like T4G? Or a TGC? Well, if it is a movement, I did not get the memo.
@ OCDan:
I had the same question.
Don Fisher wrote:
The fact is there is a pattern of many denominations, Christian leaders, and Christian schools, who treat rape victims poorly, who treat the victims as though the victims are the aggressors and need to repent.
@ bunny:
I am so sorry you were assaulted, Bunny.
I also just wanted to say that everything in your post was spot on.
dee wrote:
And that is what I just said minutes ago to a guy with the name “Euro Christian” on Marci’s blog, who was making similar comments over there.
Guys like this make it 10x more difficult for sexual assault victims to feel confident or comfortable stepping forward.
I don’t need Jane’s story anymore to know that it’s true, to be honest. TMU, Grace, and affiliated people’s responses this week have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt they are just as bad as she said they are.
Good ole Donnie keeps talking about the other side, but he doesn’t seem to realize they have confirmed all sorts of things that are against the law the past few days. By continuing to react in such big ways, they are verifying her story.
The initial JMU statement stated they got a police report when they shouldn’t have been able to, which is illegal in Los Angeles county: http://www.lapdonline.org/inside_the_lapd/content_basic_view/9136
Professors and people married into that system said they called and found out her identity (linked in the thread earlier).
Both of these are illegal in LA.
Jane’s story is about how Grace, TMU, and those affiliated with it are corrupt and morally bankrupt. They did and do things against the law. And they have made a big show of proving her right.
Don Fisher wrote:
I so far see no reason to doubt Jane’s story at this stage.
But you want to doubt it.
OCDan wrote:
Note that Master’s claims the accused was not a student. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t a member or attendee of GCC, which is my bet since he was a friend of the group of seminary students. In that case he would have been under the authority of GCC elders and pastors, and could have been compelled to go to Holland’s office.
OCDan wrote:
He was living with seminary students, apparently. Someone above speculated that he was affiliated with the church in some way? But that doesn’t exactly help the schools case, if so, so I could see why they might leave it out.
Especially since they can now yell that her story is not ‘100%’ true, because zomg she thought he was a seminary student and he wasn’t (my read on that is that she is telling the story how she perceived it at the time of attack. If truly not a seminary student, she is probably aware now since she knows who he is. And as she is not trying to give out his name, she is not going to be more detailed than that).
@ Thersites:
And TMU is welcome to provide more “facts” than their nasty response above. But here’s the rub. They did not deny the situation happened. In fact, they go to great pains to declare the alleged rapist was not a student. (Protest too much as it’s the only detail they provide on their side of the story)
But, the victim claims she was blindsided in a meeting with him at TMU. Sounds like a set up to me. The alleged rapist was only too happy to go along even though not a student? ( frankly that blindsiding meeting part sounds so familiar that it brings a lot of credibility with me. That is exactly how those type of guys do it. It’s almost as if they have a playbook somewhere. Witnessed and heard of this strategy a 1000 times. Star chamber. It’s on purpose and a bully move)
They are in a bit of a pickle if they try to tell their side of the story.
Don Fisher wrote:
Wow, and with that, you have lost all credibility with me. Cheap shot, cheapens what actual rape victims go through and their courage in going public with their stories.
Also on that note, you sound a lot like that sicko guy who accused Dee on Twitter of necrophilia or what not – who was that? I forget his name.
Wayne wrote:
The Objective vs Subjective is always an interesting ploy. The implication made is the commenters here are subjective, i.e. based on personal opinions, assumptions, and interpretations while your own view is objective based on fact. Two can play this game. The alternative view that the accusations are made up is likely influenced by a desire to protect people of power or their institutions that you hold dear.
Rather than an irritating accusation of non-objectivity, instead inject some alternative objective facts and not just toss dust into the air to obscure the facts already supplied.
Lydia wrote:
I am only quoting that bit of it, but your entire post hit the nail on the head.
Don Fisher wrote:
Part of the problem here is that I’m familiar enough with Dee that I trust her. I know her. I’ve been reading her blog long enough that I believe her to be trustworthy.
You however just pop up one day on a post about a university that is apparently mishandling rape cases.
Why should I take Johnny New Comer’s (who also appears to be a fan, I’d suspect of J-Mac or this Christian Uni, his own biases and vested interest in things) word for anything, as opposed to Dee, who has an established track record?
Thersites wrote:
Indeed.
I have nothing to gain or lose from this accusation being true or false. I doubt the same is true for the defenders of TMU/etc.
Darlene wrote:
Since Schuhplattler is largely danced by Catholics, I would imagine it’s also banned.
Don Fisher wrote:
I have been a professor for over 20 years in both private and public universities. I have extensive experience in undergraduate advising, and have processed many grade changes. There is no ‘government archive’ that preserves student grades, and at many universities retaking a class does not mean that the previous grade is replaced with the higher grade.
Don, you’re trying to sound like you are an expert, but on this specific issue you are either mistaken about the facts or you are lying.
Lea wrote:
We are also talking about how TMU handled it.
Don Fisher wrote:
Point 1.
You have a strange way of going about it, because it sure looks like that is what you are doing.
Part of minimizing rape is to do what you are doing up and down this thread: “But we can’t just believe some woman’s words!! That’s just one side of the story!” type of rhetoric.
It took 50+ accusers of Bill Cosby’s before most of the public began taking those rape allegations seriously. That should not be. You are playing into that very dynamic.
Point 2.
I’m having a difficult time believing you on this one.
You’d be showing far more support for Jane than continually beating this drum implying she is not trustworthy, we should question her in a nit picking fashion,
….but we should automatically defacto believe Holland, Master’s Uni, and J-Mac are 100% angelic innocent.
Point 3.
And there is it, a friend or fan of J Mac or Rick Holland.
You’re definitely not impartial in any of this.
Daisy wrote:
Fitting a pattern of “just popping up” out of nowhere to defend a corrupt preacher/church getting exposed. In the past, TWW’s been hit by “Concerned Christians” “just popping up” who turn out to be fanboys (if not sock puppets) of the preacher/church getting exposed. (What in dirty politics is called a “Truth Squad” AKA rapid-response propaganda machine.)
You need to establish your credibility. Hang out here for a while, give us a track record to trust you. (And one thing that WILL blow your credibility here on TWW is ignoring or belittling the victims of these corrupt MoGs and institutions.)
Don Fisher wrote:
But they have… in the form of eye witness testimony. And the lady in question went to the cops who took notes – her police report may not “prove” definitively that she was raped, but…. Something happened.
@ Don Fisher:
I am deeply disturbed by your tone and lack of compassion. You have not expressed any concern for Jane nor entertained the possibility that she may be telling the truth (and I believe she is). Yes there is a possibility that people make a malicious complaint to destroy the reputation of an innocent person, but statistically these instances are very low. And why would she do that? You very much seem to be driven by a desire to discredit Jane and speak in defence of TMU. Calling her a liar adds insult to injury. I looked at the statement by TMU and I read Jane’s story. I know who I believe.
Don Fisher wrote:
There’s not an absence of critical thinking going on.
We may disagree with you, but disagreement is not necessarily a sign of a lack of critical thinking.
Part of critical thinking in regards to stories such as these is noting that a pattern emerges.
In stories such as these is the observation that there is in fact an issue with rapists and child molesters targeting kids and women in Christina churches and schools,
knowing that the Standard Operating Procedures for such is to cover up the stories and go into victim-blaming mode if the cover up starts to fail.
Even Anna Salter noted this in some book she wrote about perverts – perverts LOVE to use churches and Christian settings for hunting grounds because they told Salter most Christians are too naive, trusting.
I’m sure they also find it appealing that when their victim steps forward to report the abuse to the church or Christian school, (if they do), that the vic will not be believed, or will be punished, while the pervert gets off scot free.
Don Fisher wrote:
That does not mean that Average Joes on blogs cannot arrive at their own conclusions in the Court of Opinion.
NC Now wrote:
A lot like ChEKA changing its name to OGPU which changed its name to NVKD which changed its name to KGB. While the liquidation quotas in GULAG continued without interruption.
Daisy wrote:
And the word gets out to all predators, whether “Pill Cosbys” or more physical and direct:
LOTSA EASY PREY HERE! OPEN SEASON!
Lydia wrote:
That, plus, I have also read that MacArthur and his church is The Pits and The Worst in how they discuss and treat mental health problems.
J-Mac and his minions are also very opposed to Christians taking medications or seeing psychiatrists or psychologists (he essentially thinks they should pray their depression away), and they show no mercy or compassion to people who have depression or anxiety.
(To the point that one young depressed man in his church committed suicide years ago, which I lay at the feet of J-Mac.)
Anyone who can show such callousness to Christians who suffer from mental health problems is also, IMO, obviously going to show equal amount of callousness towards sexual abuse victims.
Which he and his toadies are doing right now with Jane.
Guest wrote:
Don’t forget that you need to say Gospel and biblical a lot.
Lea wrote:
I just said the same thing a bit ago, before reading your post.
Apparently agreeing with Don F. means one is being logical, rational, fair, and a critical thinker.
OCDan wrote:
It’s more likely and I have no idea who this guy is, that he was a member of GCC. Rick has nothing to do with the College/University. It probably took place in conjunction with the church and the school, would be my guess.
Lea wrote:
More and more Christian women are refusing to marry complementarian men, a point I’ve raised on prior threads.
I was raised under comp, now see how sexist, unhealthy, and poisonous it is, so I will try to avoid marrying a complementarian guy myself.
Complementarian men do not “protect” women – a portion of them abuse women, then blame the women for being abused. It’s all very sick.
Lydia wrote:
Not only that, but didn’t Holland insist that she have to meet with the rapist at a regularly scheduled meeting every week or month, and if not, she’d be in some sort of trouble?
Daisy wrote:
Good for them! Excellent news! I would also support a boycott on complementarian churches. I personally would not set foot in one again.
@ ZechZav:
I get so weary of it. Is there really ever a point in trying to explain what it means that someone put their entire trust and belief system into the hands of a group like John McArthur built?
They seek that sort of loyalty then when something like this is done it’s almost as if they are blaming her for trusting them to do the right thing. These cults of thought reform ( yeah, I said cult because they demand loyalty to their system) are only seen for what they really are when some crisis hits your life. And when that happens they go into total protection mode and micromanaging every aspect of the crisis for their advantage. Their response only served to revictimize her more. In her most down moment they put a boot on her neck.
Add to all that the date rape drug (which is becoming epidemic) , concussion, alcohol and lack of immediate recall, we have a situation where she really needed the support of her chosen Christian institution. The people I have worked with on rape and DV situations says it can take up to 10 years to process the traumatic event. That does not include the revictimization after the fact from your supposed Christian support system. In a very short time frame everything was gone. Everything she thought true and good was really evil masquerading as good. It’s traumatic in addition to kidnapping and rape.
We can scold them all we want but the real message here is never trust them. Get out. Don’t support their Thought Reform. Their only goal is to grow the institution with adoring fans who obey the leaders. Anyone who has read Pyro for anytime knows the arrogance of that world.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
This.
Daisy wrote:
Doesn’t that sound like that “Gentlemen Theologians” post a couple months ago?
And I have seen “logical and rational(TM)” in action.
Don Fisher wrote:
How do you know they did not? Did you talk to Jane? Why do you disbelieve Jane?
Don Fisher wrote:
His post was not saying that. His findings showed that the number of people who lie about sexual assault is very low.
@ Lydia:
Lydia, you have given some compassionate insight here. She was not only abused but betrayed by the people she had trusted. The problem is that the TMU and all these mega-church organisations are run by men who don’t know and don’t care about abuse victims. They are unable to put themselves in the position of the victim and they simply want to entrench themselves in their position of privilege with their patriarchal nonsense.
Lea wrote:
As a virgin myself, I’d rather marry another virgin, but I realize at my age that’s not likely gonna happen. (I’d prefer a guy with no sexual history)
Don Fisher wrote:
Say Jane was your wife or sister or daughter.
She comes to you telling you this story of being raped and her college expecting her to forgive her rapist and meet with him every month…
And your first reaction to that is,
“but dear, where are the answers to my long list of questions, where is the police report?”
-etc etc.
Darlene wrote:
I’m with you, but you’d have to ask Don Fisher.
Julie Anne wrote:
Yep.
This is essential. It would help “Jane”s cause to produce pre and post transcripts. Don Fisher wrote:
Don Fisher wrote:
When or if it gets shown that she was telling the truth, I hope you come back here to leave a big apology.
dee wrote:
LOL, I see what you mean, but I suspect the difference is that Don Fisher is not a devotee of the Church of OJ Simpson nor does he read the theological works of Casey Anthony.
I suspect he attends JMac’s church, or is personal friends with Holland, or likes J Mac’s brand of theology.
I take your point, but I bet you dollars to donuts this is a “how dare anyone even try to besmirch the reputation of my favorite pastor or theology” garbage
I didn’t Don Fisher popping up on previous threads where people were saying Mark Driscoll, C J Mahaney, or Doctrine X was at fault or abusive.
Has this Fisher guy ever posted to TWW before, and I just missed it? It looks to me like he only began posting here when J-Mac and/or something or someone affiliated with J Mac was under scrutiny.
Is Fisher just as concerned with all the allegations by former Mars Hill Church of bullying by Mark Driscoll?
Or the ones against “Pastor What’s His Face” of TVC church that told that lady to stay married to the pedo?
@ ZechZav:
You know, how about just a basic belief in right and wrong? I would not want feigned compassion. I say that because they turn compassion back on you. Her story shows how they did it. And they proof text you to death with forgiveness verses for some of the most heinous evil there is out there. And trust me when I tell you a lot of Christians do this with “compassion” so that someone has to lose. It’s how they get out of dealing with wrong behavior. It’s another reason why I don’t like the word sin and prefer right/wrong or good/evil.
If the alleged rapist really did tell Rick Holland that it was all true then Rick Holland had a duty to tell that guy to go to the police and confess. Rick Holland should do it if the guy refused. That is compassion.
They despise justice and some even believe that justice is impossible here and now.
@ Grace:
Oh please. I have heard about all sorts of shenanigans going on at SBTS such as awarding grad credits to SGM pastors college attendees with no Bachelors degrees and getting around SACS rules for this or that. I am amazed they still have accreditation.
Julie Anne wrote:
If y’all start doing a series of blog posts about other mistreated (by Masters Uni) rape victims, it will be very exhausting having to see Don Fisher, and Fisher clones, pop up under every single one, making nit picky demands to their satisfaction “proving” all of it is true.
I can just see Don now, asking repeatedly under each case, of Susie, Mary, Donna, Lynn, etc, why he should believe they are all 100% true, and where is the police report,
And, my God, he cannot trust even the police report because a cop forgot to dot the letter “I” in paragraph three of hand written notes….
Don Fisher wrote:
I cannot verify that you are you and that anything you say or type is true unless you provide proof that it is all so.
Don Fisher wrote:
I would love for you to tell the story and then I would sue your sorry butt!
You see, I am responding to Jane’s public statement backed up by a police report. But, as I tried to tell your BFF, Frank Turk, the attorney I consulted, Jeff Anderson- the dude who has one almost a billion $$$ in settlements for abused people in the RCC-look him up- he’s a friend- you can state what you believe to be true but you cannot make up something you know not to be true.
That, dear Don, is legal defamation. And I am getting so sick and tired of your nonsense that I might just do it if you try it.
You see, Frank Turk, accused Nate Sparks and me of necrophilia because he was upset that I think Tom Chantry might be guilty of child sex abuse. Well, old Frankie did what you said you might do. Shortly, thereafter, he signed off of social media. Smart move…
Why don’t you *boyz* actually read up on what real defamation and libel is all about. A pastor screaming slander because someone dissed him in Yahoo isn’t it.
@ Don Fisher:
I’m not getting your obsession with nit picking over her comment she met four people at a restaurant. You’re disputing there were four people there, they were all seminary students, or there was a restaurant?
Even if she completely lied about the whole thing (say the dude did not rape her), the resulting actions of the Uni. and its employees make no sense, like asking her to meet with the alleged rapist every week..
Nor do the actions of guys defending the Uni. in the midst of all this show them in a good light in how they deal with reports of rape, either, such as yours, and guys on Twitter who are complaining.
@ Don Fisher:
Obviously, logical Don-you are now banned. If you hurry and tell your friends, they might pat you on the head.
What a creepster, folks.
GracieAnne wrote:
Thank you for your thoughtful comment. Don was just a typical creepster.
Lea wrote:
I just saw an article the other day that addressed this very stereotype. I’d love to give you the link to it, but I cannot remember where I saw it….
I am beginning to think that Don might be Mr Nobody or Frank Turk or both….
@ Don Fisher:
And you clearly do not understand the dynamics of abuse, and how Christian orgs typically mishandle them, otherwise, you’d drop the repeated nonsense of “but it’s just one side of the story, and I need more verified” stuff, blah blah etc.
ZechZav wrote:
Not to mention that from what I’ve read, J-Mac Fan Bots have been defending J-Mac and arguing against Jane on Twitter. (I think Julie Anne mentioned that?)
Just going to point out that religious institutions have this very bad habit of covering up sexual assaults. Brigham Young University is one of the largest universities in my region–a lot of high schoolers end up there. And BYU would regularly report that there were *no* rapes on its campus. But last year (spring 2016), this facade was brought down when a young woman, Madi Barney, alleged she was raped off campus. Ms. Barney was told she would have to go through the Honor Code Office process, where she would be judged on her clothes, whether she had been drinking, whether she’d been with a man after a certain hour and so on and so forth. The BYU HCO did not care that Ms. Barney had reported this to the Provo police and this was in the middle of the criminal process, they wanted her to undergo scrutiny right then. Ms. Barney refused and was told she couldn’t register for the next quarter at school. She then went to the Salt Lake Tribune, which broke the story. It later came out that somehow BYU had gotten a copy of the police report, even though it was not entitled to the report. BYU was basically forced into revamping its process for sexual assaults of its students. Ms. Barney has moved on to another university. She is still waiting for her alleged rapist to be prosecuted.
And, for the record, this is not merely a problem at religious schools. Four women reported being sexually assaulted by a football player at Utah State University in 2015. But it wasn’t until the news broke (again via the Salt Lake Tribune) that the police actually went after the accused rapist. He’s been bound over for trial (I can’t find a date).
And of course, some of us are aware of the Baylor University sexual assault scandal. It’s so notorious it has its own Wikipedia. *scowl* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baylor_University_sexual_assault_scandal
Lea wrote:
Yes, J-Mac and Masters Uni’s treatment and teachings about women (and mental health) comes back to bite them on their butts.
Instead of dealing with rape reports with justice and compassion, they go by their sexist, stupid gender complementarian views of women (women are second class and ALWAYS to blame for abuse and rape), which of course, when exposed to normal people, draws criticism and out-rage.
But then you get guys like Don Fisher who waltz on to this blog essentially defending these types of complementarian creepers – this who fiasco is a direct result of John MacArthurian influence and teachings!
But you don’t want him or his college to be held responsible for the horrible, evil outcomes of it, when it gets into the public eye.
Daisy wrote:
should be,
“this WHOLE fiasco is a …”
Lea wrote:
It would be like if he had a five year old daughter who came home saying she was just raped by an adult neighbor, said her attacker was wearing a blue shirt at the time when asked for a description, but later, Don sees the guy in a teal- blue color shirt (not just a “blue” one), and then concludes his daughter is totally lying because she got the color of the shirt wrong.
Daisy wrote:
I’ve seen the university system here in my hometown operate one. The similarity with the one from this particular churchy institution would be they are both kangaroo courts staffed by people with an agenda that will come to The predetermined conclusion. That two such “courts” have entirely different routine outcomes does not negate the fact that both are corrupt.
Thersites wrote:
I think Don has already reached his conclusions on Jane, Jane’s story, and on Dee.
I readily admit I believe Jane. I am on Team Jane.
@ Lydia:
Ditto to your comments from 6:11 PM. And yes, I am quite familiar with the Pyromaniacs blog from back in the day. The Three Amigos who ran and wrote for that blog, and the commentators who supported them were vicious bullies who had no interest considering what other Christians NOT LIKE THEM had to say. And unlike TWW, those who had differing opinions than them were shut down and their comments deleted. These guys in that camp cannot deal with anyone disagreeing with them. They believe they have marching orders from On High and they will plow down anyone who gets in their way.
@ Guest:
Sadly, and unfortunately, all too true.
But I have to give credit to the portion of Christians on this blog (and at JA’s) who stand with the victims.
dee wrote:
Thank you for clarifying that.
I was just asking about that a few posts ago before I got to your post.
Guys like this are never consistent. He likely does not care if you critique Steve Furtick, Mark Driscoll, or John Doe pastor – it’s only when HIS favorite pastor or brand of theology is under scrutiny that they start posting here to defend that particular pastor (or church, Christian school, whatever it is).
If true, I agree that is not ethical. Transcripts would be a very easy thing for “Jane” to produce, however, and it would help her cause. Lydia wrote:
Yikes, @DonFisher! Talking about circling the wagon!!
Lea wrote:
I totally agree with your entire post, I just wanted to say that even in the oft chance the Christian college or pastor does believe the woman and say she’s telling the truth….
They blame her anyhow!!!
A rape, for instance, may be chalked up as being mere “fornication,” (ie, consensual act) or they blame her by saying stuff like, “You were drinking,” or, “the skirt you wore at the time was too short.”
Should be “wagons,” plural. I corrected stupid SpellCheck “twice,* and it still got it wrong. Pretty-please, may I shoot SpellCheck?
Wayne wrote:
Who says facts don’t matter?
A woman was raped and her college terribly handled the situation.
Are you Don Fisher under a new name? Or just close buddies with him?
Darlene wrote:
And this in itself leads me to believe Jane’s story, because the M.O. of the MacArthurite Camp is one that sees disagreement with them as rebellion against God. Anytime you encounter a MacArthurite, you will find they have no use for Christians that differ from their Calvinist views. They have no use for women who don’t subjugate themselves to their Comp. teachings, shut their mouths and go back to the home to cook, clean and raise the children. Women are to be seen and not heard. And even at that, they are only to be seen in certain situations. They really have no use for women other than within their prescribed parameters which they dictate to them.
This is a Toxic Bunch with a Toxic Theology.
@ Daisy: why not try and post some? Seriously? I’ve read about “all” these other iccidences but no details of any kind. I ask this sincerely.
Please understand that if this is the first time you’ve ever heard of something like this happening at Masters or GCC it’s hard to believe and I have no context or exposure to these other stories. So I assuming leadership guilty of these crimes, is just frankly hard to believe. Please provide other examples, even if they’re just links.
Wayne wrote:
Alternate translation:
“I’m a big fan and supporter of Holland, John MacArthur, and/or Master Uni or their teaching, and I’m upset that anyone any where on the internet is criticizing my uni/ buddy/ favorite theologian!”
@ dee:
I can top GarciaAnne in that I have been a Professor for all most 30 years. I agree with what GraciaAnne said, and I will go further and say I have seen higher ups override grads ( and heard secondhand about it happening at other institutions…. under questionable circumstance… so it is entirely possible, especially at a place like TMU…
There is no “centralized” gov’t agency… i burst out laughing when he said that..
Jenny wrote:
He could have maybe been on staff there, anything from a guy who cuts lawn there to a secretary who types stuff in their offices.
Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:
Needs to be repeated. You, however, are at a far higher intellectual level than poor logical Don the creepster.
A bit off topic, Barbara Blaine died today at 61, definitely an unsung hero for all who have been abused. May she rest in peace.
http://religionnews.com/2017/09/25/barbara-blaine-founder-of-abuse-victims-group-snap-dies/
I’ve mentioned this here before. When my late mom was five years old, she was serially molested by a man in her apartment building. When she told her mom (my grandmother) about it, Nana turned to her sister, my mom’s aunt. The aunt said, and I quote, “He never would have done this if Mary hadn’t led him on.”
When I first learned about this, besides feeling furious, I figured, “Well, that’s how backward and clueless people were in South Boston in the 1930s.”
Little did I know. Apparently people who ought to know better are still backward and clueless today. But they don’t have my great aunt’s excuse of being an ignorant person from another era.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I agree with everything you said!
JYJames wrote:
Never mind their jobs. The entire operation should be dismantled and razed to the ground.
Wayne wrote:
Seriously- you cannot believe that any leadership of a church or school with which you are affiliated could be involved in sin and coverup?! Sir, you need to read your Bible a bit more carefully. We are all positionally holy yet we are still functionally sinners-you me, MacArthur (gasp)!
Also, you naivety shows. If *Wayne* hasn’t heard of it, it can’t have happened or it wouldn’t have happened and it is not to be believed. You are either very young or you are involved in protecting your leadership because you can be darn tootin’ sure that there has *stuff.* You just don’t know it or refuse to believe it. I would even imagine that you may have heard of some things but you didn’t believe it because you have told *not to listen to gossip.*
@ brian:
I just heard about that. She was kind to me many years ago when I called SNAP for advice on how to handle something at a former church. She loved and protected children far more than many.
Daisy wrote:
Funny. not true in the least. I went to Masters and thought it was ok. There is a certain fundy smell in the air I didn’t care for, but other than that I had a good enough time, learned a lot and made some great friends. None of which are the above.
Daisy wrote:
I think we should offer something to Wayne. When he finally understands that awful things can happen under the auspices of his chosen *biblical* and *godly* leader, we would be happy to post his story.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Exactly. All the wanna-be rapists out there, if they are perusing any of these blogs, see how the “Don Fishers” and “Master’s Unis” react to rape allegations, and they must twirl their villian mustaches and decide to troll any J-Macish churches or Master’s U for new victims.
Daisy wrote:
I have warned Wayne and am watching him closely…
P.S.
Whether someone can even retake a class, and how the “two grades” are recorded is instutionally/college/department determined….. not by the “gov’t”…. there is no way in #$&@ we would let the gov’t tell us how to do that… I have been a member of a committee that oversees this for over 20 years at major state university..
@ Daisy:
Don was a total creepster.
Burwell wrote:
Love it! There are two – my BFF 'dee' and 'another Dee'
brian wrote:
With Don, too, you need to toss in lots of references to “100%” and “verified” and “proof” and the phrase “two sides”
Wayne wrote:
Why should we believe you? As far as I know, you are a woman and married to Frank Turk. Wayne, it is how you come across in your comments. That is all we have to go on here. And, I haven't talked with you like I have talked with Jane.
Lydia wrote:
^ All of that, ten times over. Very well put. I agree.
dee wrote:
I’m sure it could happen. Absolutely. All have sinned and fall short. It could have happened there, as well.
dee wrote:
I don’t know good point. I don’t mean to come across as dismissive. Honestly. I’m protecting no one. Who am I? I’m a nobody in that world. I’m not even in the same theological camp. I will agree the seminary produces a certain kind of pastor at times, from my experience, that is not healthy. Very divisive amongst the body. JMac truth warriors etc. And the irony is, that in all
My interactions with JMac at school and later in life he struck me as very pastoral and frankly, normal. I’d like to think I’m not brain washed etc so that’s my gut on it.
Now could there have been horrendous handling by staff and RH? Sure that’s def possible. It’s just hard to see how one proves that to see them held accountable. The grades thing comes to mind but beyond email exchanges etc, I’m not hopeful.
Lydia wrote:
Considering I was dumped out of SEBTS with 4 credit hours left of my 64 hour degree because they decided they no longer wanted to offer my program, I can be a personal witness to some of those type of shenanigans. And they refused to let me take a single independent study to finish it.
At the time I didn’t understand why, but I think I figured it out now. They told me they didn’t like MA programs and all seminary students should only get MDivs. They have since added the MAs back, but I think it was only after pressure from the trustees. But I think the real reason was that the MAIS was something like 85% female. And now the MAIS is a “proclamation-centered missions degree” because “faith only comes from proclamation”. In case you don’t speak New Calvinist, that means men preaching.
dee wrote:
Dee, do you or Marci have copies of the paperwork for her grades pre and post? It’s an important detail.
Grace wrote:
Her cause, as stated quite clearly in Marci’s post, was to raise awareness of systemic abuse and bad treatment of abuse victims at TMU.
An advocate group of mostly TMU victims has been formed through all of this. There are quite a few of them. Most of them have given their real names on Marci’s blog or on Facebook on the first post TMU did about this issue. The advocate group are going to discuss options to further raise awareness about the systemic abuse and treatment of assault and rape at TMU. That may include legal ramifications, I don’t know.
So I would say Jane accomplished her cause quite well.
ishy wrote:
It would help her gain credibility. In addition, it is a serious allegation against a school, and one that needs to be supported with evidence.
The Mystery of Don Fisher (Important Information)
1. Rick Holland moved has been at Mission Road Bible Church since the 2010-2011 time period.
2. In 2013, a widower from Prairie Village named Don Fisher left this world and and the use of his earthly name.
3. Rick Holland seems uncomfortable excersising authority using his own name.
4. When Don Fisher mentions Rick Holland, it’s usually in conjunction with John Macarthur, but is the first name listed and the lead actor.
5. Rick Holland seems to have an interest in profane details. Don Fisher seems to have profane fantasises.
6. Rick Holland can’t resolve issues in a Christ-like manner, so he threatens retaliation. Don Fisher……
7. Rick Holland is a bully……
Who does Don Fisher think he really is? Now he has the opportunity to prove the unprovable.
dee wrote:
I was suspecting that higher up in the thread. I just could not remember Turk’s name, but I remembered his weird “necrophilia” accusation.
ishy wrote:
By tracking the public comments about this situation with TMU/TMS on various blogs, plus social media like Facebook and Twitter, it definitely looks like we are seeing a similar kind of support, advocacy, and activism group emerge. That seems to be what it takes to address problems that may be endemic to an organization, its formal and informal partners (i.e., that together create a “Christian industrial complex), and the leaders in them who protect the status of one another.
Along this line, I’m reminded of the impact that the Recovering Grace group and their website have had in identifying patterns of abuse related to Bill Gothard personally, his teachings, and the Institute in Basic Life Principles. As best I can recall, over their first three years, survivors of this systemic abuse built a solid set of personal narratives from at least 60 survivors, plus posted extensive resources critiquing the IBLP teachings and documenting related problems.
http://www.recoveringgrace.org/
Such efforts can make a constructive difference for other survivors, while challenging ongoing patterns of misuse of prestige and power on the part of leaders at institutions.
@ Grace:
Serious compared to what? Covering up rape, kidnapping? I hope Jane is not too concerned about gaining credibility. It doesn’t work that way. She will never have credibility with TMU or McArthur loyalists.
Wayne wrote:
Facts have already been posted. The testimony of Jane, and parts of the police report.
This is not far fetched. Christian Unis and churches ALWAYS either deny a rape happened or they say the vic is a liar or they paint her as a Jezebel who was “asking for it” because she was out past curfew, or stepped into a bar, or wore a short skirt.
I don’t care about TMU’s reputation. I am more apt to believe they are Guilty McGuilty because I’ve seen this same story play out all the time with other religious schools and churches.
It’s the RARE religious institution that properly and compassionately deals with abuse cases, whether sexual or physical (ie, domestic violence)
@ Grace:
Somebody is worried about accreditation? Have an audit coming up?
@ ishy:
Yep. I am constantly amazed at what they get by with.
@ Wayne:
You just enjoy trying to cause doubt about the claims of rape victims then, it’s a hobby. I see.
dee wrote:
He’s saying now in some other posts he merely thinks they are “okay,” but I have my doubts. I think he may be a fan boy.
Regardless, there is something sick about people (usually men) who want to paint any and all women who say they were raped as Liars just “out to get” a man or a university.
The MRA guys on Reddit are notorious for this sick, sexist behavior.
dee wrote:
Wayne is his competition for that title now, IMO.
@ Jeffrey J Chalmers:
Yeah, I did not get that at all. I think Grace was trying to convince people grades could not be changed and threw that in.
I don’t (and I don’t think anyone else posting here does either) know the truth of what actually happened at all stages of this. Nevertheless, I hope justice and truth reign in the end.
dee wrote:
Let’s just call him illogical!
Grace wrote:
Or if they’re lost and can’t be obtained, she can state this. I find the other charges likely because many others have reported similar. But never heard this one before.
Or this, “I must agree to sit next to the stranger in church every week.” Anyone ever heard this being done before? Not that either of these would be shocking, given the institutions.
What Happened wrote:
I don’t know if your theory is true, but I am impressed by the sleuthing. I think you’re a few steps from a quality film noir.
Lydia wrote:
As a matter of fact, it appears that WASC (Western Association of Schools and Colleges) — the regional accrediting agency for TMU/TMS — is due to hold Offsite Review Fall 2017 and Accreditation Visit Spring 2018. Self-study processes for accreditation are done every 5 years, as I recall from working at a seminary for over a decade.
See the “Upcoming reviews” tab at the WASC link below:
https://www.wscuc.org/institutions/masters-university-and-seminary
dee wrote:
That he was!
@ Darlene:
Once in comments at Pyro concerning women teaching men, Phil Johnson said that if any man asked his wife about Christ, she was to direct him to a male for an answer. Answering would be teaching a man.
I kid you not. He wrote it as plain as day. And that had to be 10 years go. The air is unbreathable around that world. Stifling. Oppressive. It’s their way to be important big men. Their view of women is a short walk to Islam.
Run people!
ishy wrote:
That is great news ishy!
ishy wrote:
Yes she did. Just as the press, film and TV journalists brought out the ugly truth of Vietnam back in the day, I consider Marci to be the Neil Sheehan of this affair in exposing TMU for the bright shining lie that it is.
Lydia wrote:
How about the fact that the first people to witness the empty tomb were women, and were the first ones to run back and inform the men folk about it?
Did one of the Gospels say that the risen Lord appeared to these women outside the tomb and told them to guy tell the dudes?
Lydia wrote:
Which is why I tend to discount any man who claims that someone is a ‘good guy’ or whatever. They don’t always see what the women see unless they are looking, because men are treated as fully human in that world and women are not.
Jane was less important to these guys than MysteryRapist, simply for being female. It’s clear as day, if you listen to any of them talk long enough. Men (like Wayne, assuming he’s legit) will not see the same things, particularly if they bought into the patriarchy nonsense. And most people don’t see what goes on when the SHTF in general unless they experience it.
@ brad/futuristguy:
Lol. Good find. i have been involved in a few audits myself at the system level. Good times. 🙂
Grace seemed overly focused and insistent on the grades aspect. My thought was they are worried and want Jane to produce what she has because they are not sure. Got the big U now to defend?
@ Lea:
They especially disdain Christian female bloggers. Even did a few posts. I think one was a riff off Knox’ “Monstrous Regiment of Women”. Another was Discernment Divas or something like that.
They make Piper seem like just a bad poet. 🙂
Lea wrote:
Lol! It is good sleuthing and frankly not surprising.
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
Not if I find them first. I am convinced it changes my edit the minute I hit send.
@ Lydia:
Don tried to hold himself back a bit and then the condescension started rolling off him in waves…
Lydia wrote:
SOMETIMES IT DOES! I have changed stuff three times and watched it bounce back. Stupid tech.
Recently I read Joe Navarro’s book, Dangerous Personalities: An FBI Profiler Shows You How to Identify and Protect Yourself from Harmful People.
– the Narcissist
– the Emotionally Unstable
– the Paranoid
– the Predator
An abreviated description of the four here: http://bit.ly/2fMQPS6
Helpful, since the four types are rare yet hiding in plain sight (including in churches, schools, seminaries, Christan colleges, commenting on blogs, etc.).
Navarro recommends, What We Can Do (fair enough, common sense, neither witchhunt nor alarmist – this is an excellent approach):
• Know what to look for
• Get help – professional help
• Set boundaries and limits
• Communicate with your allies
• Document your experience
• Don’t ignore or dismiss behaviors
• Don’t ignore how they make you feel
• Distance yourself if necessary
• Utilize available resources
Lydia wrote:
That her grades were turned from A’s to F’s is one of the easiest things in her account to prove, and it is my guess she would want to do all that she can to be believable in the midst of speculation concerning her side of the story.
Grace wrote:
If I were Jane, the ONLY thing I would produce would be a scrappy junkyard dog lawyer for a civil suit. I can’t believe you are talking “ethics” on the grades when she was blindsided by the supposedly “spiritual” people she trusted and it was done in Jesus’ Name.
She owes you nothing. And she should not be concerned about her credibility with people in a Thought Reform cult and their fellow travelers.
We live on different planets.
Lydia wrote:
“Jane” could submit her paperwork concerning the grade changes to WASC.
Grace wrote:
Should she black out her name, too? Sigh.
For you? You are protesting too much and it’s starting to look real obvious.
“Grace” To You. (Wink)
Lydia wrote:
Ha!
BTW, my Film Noir would be set in the 40s and don from prairie grove would be stalking someone through the newspaper classified…
dee wrote:
I feel your pain. I was accused of necrophilia because I like to spend time in historic cemeteries.
Grace wrote:
This is how it works in anMcArthur church, folks. It’s called deflecting then redefining the narrative. The MSM does it all the time but are more clever about it. Or used to be.
Lydia wrote:
No, I simply saying that her paperwork would be clear evidence lending to her credibility.
Lydia wrote:
Distract. Deflect. Divert.
Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
@ Jenny:
That was in ref to Grace’s post, and in agreement with Lydia’s.
I need to go back to editing school, it seems.
Lea wrote:
When in the mood, it’s why I continue to engage. 🙂 I learned it living at ground zero surrounded by YRR. I got so sick of seeing them censor and intimidate people who dared to ask questions or disagree. They are not used to ANY pushback. They honestly have no experience with it.
But, They also know that 80% of the people will back off so as to not look “mean” or combative. Since I don’t care anymore and won’t be winning any popularity contests soon, I continued to engage. :).
Lydia wrote:
Yes, they do. Piper, in comparison to them, would seem like a Feminist. These guys don’t even try to cloak their blatant misogyny. I’d say they’re rather proud of it.
Grace wrote:
I’m not understanding the fixation on this aspect, when a rape has been committed.
Regardless, who says it’s easy?
If it’s all computerized, all the school had to do was switch or change all her grades in their system, and I don’t think they’d give her access to her system.
I don’t recall getting “report cards” from one of the last universities I went to, until I graduated, and they sent me a computerized transcript showing all classes and grades I had taken while there.
Grace wrote:
Credibility for whom, specifically?
Daisy wrote:
I meant to “their” system.
If they changed everything digitally, there may or may not be proof showing they did, but even so, I bet a court would have to order them to cough up any digital stuff.
Jane would not be permitted to look over their computer system, and even so, would she know where and how to analyze if they deleted her grades?
Wayne wrote:
Ah, but if your moniker is any indicator, you are a man. Given JMac’s beliefs about women, how do you think his interactions with any one of us (females) would strike us?
Grace wrote:
She’s already credible in my book.
Lydia wrote:
I wonder if this is a male using a female name, a la a certain guy we know who hates this blog who tried this on my Daisy blog?
Sometimes the guys who defend their pastors or fave Christian whatever (author, school, theologian), think they can be less suspicious if they post under a woman’s name.
@ Daisy:
Rape is robbery of her innocence and desecration of her person. Thereafter, expunging her grades is robbery of her work and desecration of her scholarship. (And vengeance, it seems, as well as making her disappear, denying her her achievement and destroying her career path.)
This began with the aggression of Mr. Predator and friends, and continued with the Institution and its Leadership sheltering the Predator and his friends.
@ Lea:
Yeah, it could be anyone, but the similarities are definitely there. When I read Prairie Vilage, the Garrison Keilor in me came out.
Don Fisher wrote:
Ok, forget it, I am no longer going to take you seriously whatsoever. The fact you can treat this so facetiously tells me everything I need to know.
Daisy wrote:
I’m a woman, and never heard of this blog before.
Lydia wrote:
I would too. The courts are rapidly losing their patience with the protestant mafia.
Daisy wrote:
Don Fisher wrote:
This is not funny. This guy’s true colours are coming out.
The question in all of this is “Cui bono?”. Who benefits?
I firmly believe in due process. I think that this event should have had it’s day in court. In our jurisdiction, there is no statute of limitations on rape.
That being said, the lady in this story does not benefit from telling her story. If anything, it’s painting a target on her back.
I notice in her account, that she did not have any issues with TMU’s very controlling rules. Jane appears to have been “on side”. The fact that she’s reclaiming her life at 32 also says a lot. She was a “good little soldier”. It must have eaten her up inside.
“Almost dancing” as a charge? But you can get and exemption for weddings! Never heard of such things.
TMU sounds as much fun as a fall down a flight of stairs.
I don’t know any of the principles from Adam. But “TMU” gives me the heebs.
Daisy wrote:
I figured that she had requested her transcripts at some point, transcripts which showed her that they had indeed changed her grades from A’s to F’s.
Daisy wrote:
Now i’m trying to remember. Im sure I could check grades in the system and maybe had an unofficial transcript or printout? But yeah, I didn’t bother with the official one until i graduated probably. Hm.
(I agree that’s only one aspect of this whole scenario)
Daisy wrote:
“fixated”…no, thought it would help her case. That’s all. Signing out on that topic now : )
Grace wrote:
I’m a cat named Fluffy typing these posts.
Grace wrote:
When I graduated, I got only one set of transcripts.
I didn’t get two, one that showed the start and the end.
So, if she got only one set, that showed all F’s, she may not have an initial set that showed all A’s.
Jack wrote:
Right?
Wayne wrote:
What I got from this is facts DO matter but that there are way more facts than people were aware of and it is coming out now. Years ago I was involved in church groups which operated somewhat similar to this which is why I (and many other of us) readily believe it when we read about it here. I am so thankful to be in a healthy group of believers now but I want to weep when I think of what so many including myself went through before.
Lea wrote:
I went to a community college then two different Universities. The CC may have sent me report cards in the mail (I don’t recall), but I remember the place I ended up graduating from sent me one transcript, after I graduated. One transcript showing the grades. I don’t remember what the second university did.
Daisy wrote:
Yes, good point. Most don’t request transcripts periodically before graduating. A final transcript showing all F’s would be incriminating though, against TMU.
Grace wrote:
Yeah- I know what that is like. I’m a woman and I hadn’t heard of this blog until 2009.
@ Grace:
Because I imagine it’s a very rare that a person receives all F’s.
Grace wrote:
Yeah- interesting that! So could the school.And before you say it, they could present it something like this. Well, we have the *report* and we now know her story is bogus but we will wait until she lets us release it.
dee wrote:
Good to know this blog is here.
Daisy wrote:
Wow, I didn’t even get that. I had to pay for copies later, and that make that hard now.
One thing some people don’t realize about small Christian schools is that they are usually very poorly organized. You can request stuff, but it might never get to the person to be done.
I remember one semester at SEBTS I registered on the first day possible for the next semester. We wrote our classes on sheets and dropped them in a box. I get to class the next school year and they all tell me I am not enrolled. I go in. They say they are in process with a lot of changes and will figure it out sometime. I go in again the next day. Same thing happens for several days until my time starts to run out.
I go in for a third or fourth time and finally start digging through the box. The box was overflowing on the last day of changes. There, the very last form, was mine. I was the very first person to have registered for that semester. They just took forms off the top of the box and processed those and never got to the people who registered first.
@ Grace:
Welcome to the blog, Grace. Don’t you worry your head about that. One way or the other it will be posted.
ishy, I don’t remember if we had to pay for the first official transcript but definitely we did for any subsequent ones.
ishy wrote:
Really? That sounds maddening!
Grace wrote:
And an all A transcript would be incriminating against Jane.
Lea wrote:
LU had this draconian lady in charge of the Finance Office. You could have statements from financial aid proving they sent money months before, and she would say it never came and to pay up. One of my roommates went over and over this with her. I watched a few times. My roommate had all the forms to prove it. It was pretty bad.
@ ishy:
I am so glad I went to a godless heathen school with no religious affiliation then.
Also? Lots of clubbing! (because if you timed it right you could go for free multiple times a week, yay for broke college student fun). Suck it, j-mac.
@ Grace:
Are you friends with Phil Johnson’s daughter in law?
Lea wrote:
LOL! I actually started at a big public college, and I only changed because the lottery free scholarship thing was started the same year I went and the university made the mistake of letting everyone in. It was a mess. Couldn’t get any classes (hence why I was probably the first person to register at SEBTS). And then I got injured badly and had to take time off and decided to try somewhere else.
How I got to LU was totally weird. They offered me a 3/4 scholarship. And my agnostic dad decided I should go there because, well, free money! I actually had never heard of it before they offered me a scholarship. Apparently someone recommended me for it, but I never did find out more.
So I wasn’t exactly prepared for what I encountered is an understatement. But I am pretty adaptable, I was older than the average student, and I made some wonderful friends, which really helped.
dee wrote:
Very true. I was thinking she already had paperwork from the school that she had received years ago which confirmed the grade changes to her.
Welcome to the blog, Grace. Don’t you worry your head about that. One way or the other it will be posted.
Thanks : )
Dee said “Welcome to the blog, Grace….” Not me. I obviously am not doing this right sometimes : )
@ dee:
No.
ishy wrote:
Ha. I get that.
@ Grace:
Grace, Don clearly has no clue what he’s talking about here. I don’t know why you are supporting this nonsense of his. There is no “centralized government agency” that archives the grades of every college and university in the nation. The only way that “Jane” could prove this is if she happened to have transcripts or grade reports for each semester before the grades were reportedly changed, or if someone admitted to changing them. Keep in mind that they locked her out of her student account shortly after this so that she wouldn’t be able to get any proof.
@ Grace:
I may need to put you on slow moderation, Grace. There is no such think as a central grade keeping authority. You showed up about the same time as logical Don and I am beginning to think we are playing games here.
Daisy wrote:
It would be a curious transcript to have all “Fs” for three years, you have to admit. That would make me exceptionally suspicious. Of course, they could do what BYU does to students who get thrown out–not release transcripts at all if you’re in trouble with the honor code office, or, worse yet, decide you’re going to leave the Mormon church.
Rosie wrote:
I’m not aware of such an agency, and did not maintain one existed. I simply figured (before seeing Don’s post) that she must have requested a transcript after leaving. One transcript with three years of F’s, whether previous transcripts with A’s were available or not, would be highly suspect. It would be obvious the grades had been changed because a typical school wouldn’t allow a student to remain with semester after semester of F’s.
Hey, I know this allegation of grade change doesn’t compare in the least to rape. I simply thought if she could produce the transcript it would help her.
Grace wrote:
New flash. I do not have any transcripts showing my grades in college.I bet I’m involved in a conspiracy….
Jenny wrote:
I spent a fair number of years from the late 80’s to the early 90’s. Almost 30 years have passed, but it seems like time stood still there with nothing changed.
The pasted comment of yours is one of the most heart breaking. I have seen so many people who started out as down to earth and unassuming transform into heartless John MacArthur sycophants. The church is a very seductive but yet powerful indoctrination machine.
dee wrote:
I’m not sure what slow moderation means; I agree there is not a central grade keeping authority; and I don’t know Don.
Thanks for the opportunity to ask the question.
Signing out : )
Don Fisher wrote:
Can you elaborate on this, John? What is the name of the centralized government entity that does this?
ishy wrote:
The paying part sounds vaguely familiar.
I may have had to pay for my copy as well, I don’t remember that part of it.
I’m just saying I only got one copy from the Uni I graduated from, not two or more copies, as Grace was suggesting would be helpful to show if a college was playing around with student grades.
When I was a kid from grade school up to high school, it was customary at every one I went to (and I attended schools in about five different states) to send a report card home every quarter (around every four months) so your parents could chew you out if you were failing.
Most of them mailed it home, but the grade school would have us hand carry it home, get Mom to sign it, then bring it back.
But with the Uni, it was one final copy of all final grades, sent at one time.
ishy wrote:
People and situations such as that drive me absolutely insane. I would have to really restrain myself from not smacking that woman or screaming profanity, and I’ve never been one prone to violence or even using dirty words (ie cuss words – at least until a few years ago).
I did have a boss on that job who was kind of like that.
@ Grace:
@ Grace. I’d like to apologize for being snarky to you up thread, but at this point, I’m kind of suspicious of you, or was.
If you are really supportive of Jane (or victims in general), I just wasn’t picking that up in your posts. You were coming across to me similar to Don above or that Wayne guy, I think his name was.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:
Possibly. However it does happen.
My dad was friends with a guy (and this was years ago) whose daughter was making straight F’s in college every semester, except in one lone class (her favorite, let’s say it was “Basket Weaving”)
I cannot remember the format of her report cards / transcript, if she got one every quarter, at the end of every years, or what not, I just recall seeing “F” after “F” listed next to ALL her classes, except for her one fave.
This daughter of my dad’s friend would skip classes to go hang out with friends during the day or at night clubs, rather than study and do school work.
This made an impression on me, because my dad was paying for my college, and no way would my dad keep funding me if I came home with straight F’s.
(I made all A’s…. Also because I was nerdy and bookish and enjoyed school work, not just because of my dad)
@ Daisy:
And I’d like to emphasize this daughter’s university report cards was for a year or longer.
I don’t remember the EXACT length of it, but I remember being really amazed she was flunking out for so long, like over a year…
I remember thinking (as I was leafing over the stack of paperwork, it was computerized print outs), I could MAYBE see a student blowing off a SINGLE SEMESTER, getting lazy for a few months, to go party (even tho that was not my thing), but this young lady was blowing off several semester’s worth of classes.
My dad’s friend (the dad to this woman) had a stack of papers going back a year or more.
dee wrote:
I admit to having mine. At least I did. I think they’re in the same box with my framed Uni diploma in my closet somewhere. But I only have that one copy.
dee wrote:
I don’t think abusive people can do a particularly good job of even faking concern for victims, because it’s so anathema to their fundamental makeup. Have yet to see a person like our resident defender of all things TMS and GCC who could do a convincing job of this. I have to say, though, that if Don thinks he was being clever or scoring points in debate, he is absolutely delusional. An absolute flatline in the reasoning and logic department, simply dug the pit deeper with each post. It’s sad dealing with one who’s not clever enough to realize he’s not clever.
@ Law Prof:
I agree with what all you said, and I’m sorry to beat a dead horse, but it always galls me, and they really give themselves away, when they only show up to this blog on particulars.
I mean, Deb and Dee can post ten posts tomorrow saying what a creep Mark Driscoll is, and I can guaranatee you that Don and Wayne won’t show up and make a peep, because Driscoll is not their hero. Only J-Mac and/or TMU affiliates are.
Guys like that claim to be deeply concerned about Deb and Dee’s honesty, accuracy, in their blogging, but the tip off for me is…
They won’t believe anything negative about THEIR religious heroes but don’t give two shakes about Deb and Dee’s supposed faulty or flawed reporting on Driscoll (or Piper, Steve Furtick).
Same with the other guys. You won’t generally see a Driscoll Fan Boy show up to criticize Dee and Deb’s reporting on John MacArthur or Furtick, because they don’t give a rat’s behind if Deb and Dee are sticking it to JMac or Furtick this week.
Daisy wrote:
I understand. My heart does go out to victims. I like to walk and am concerned about becoming a victim myself…my husband has bought me multiple lines of defense due to incidents that made me afraid.
Let me add to the chorus of those expressing skepticism about the Centralized Government Grading Authority. If that is so, why in the world did I have to request that my alma maters produce transcripts when I applied for or received offers for academic jobs? Why didn’t I request them through the Government Grading Authority? Sure would have been more efficient. Have been in academia for going on 15 years now, have worked for a private Christian college, a small public college and a large state university, my current employer, have sat on committee after committee and have yet to hear of this entity.
I think it is because it does not exist except in Don Fisher’s imagination. Either that, or Don Fisher is just a full boat liar who wouldn’t know the truth if it kissed him on the cheek.
RLH wrote:
Hi RLH, thanks for your support of Jane and of all survivors of abuse and sexual crime.
However, I think you may be rather naive about the actual value of a church or denomination having higher courts where pastors and elders are held accountable. The PCA is a reformed denomination. It has the ecclesiology you would recommend. But it has been notably dismissive and unjust to victims of domestic abuse.
Allow me to give you some examples:
The case of Jessica Fore. https://jessicafore.wordpress.com/
The case of Marie O’Toole. http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/12/14/are-pastors-at-heritage-bible-chapel-re-abusing-wives-harmed-in-abusive-marriages/
The case of Persistent Widow. https://cryingoutforjustice.com/2015/02/02/abuse-in-a-pca-church-part-1-of-persistent-widows-story/
@ Law Prof:
I can introduce you to some megachurch pastors who are masters in the art of deceptive totalitarian niceness. They aren’t in the Cal movement but their entire livelihood depends on being perceived as nice. The only time the mask slips is in private meetings with minions afraid of losing their place in the inner ring. The adoring fans in the pews would never believe you, anyway.
dee wrote:
I thought his son was a policeman, too. Not sure how long ago.
Grace wrote:
My guess is they brain gamed her as part of the intimidation. By the account, this was a young woman who had totally trusted an institution and its leaders. In their world she was easy to intimidate. A blindsiding meeting with her alleged rapist is a big neon sign clue they are evil. TMU had control of the account to change and change back. And yes, I totally believe these cretins use deceptive brain gaming and intimidation. ,
@ David C:
Don has been banned, He tried s hard to pretend to be just an impartial social sort of guy but he was a total jerk and one of the Boyz especially when he said he was going to accuse me of raping him. I bet he’s a part of the Frank Turk/Phil Johnson take down squad and they can be rather vile on occasion.
Grace wrote:
Come on Grace (to you). Your insistence here suggests otherwise. You copied Don’s comment and continued to insist. In other words, you believed it:
Grace UNITED STATES on Mon Sep 25, 2017 at 06:27 PM said:
This is essential. It would help “Jane”s cause to produce pre and post transcripts. Don Fisher wrote:
5.) She says, “They are changing my three years of earned college credits from A’s to F’s. I have flunked out of college.” …..?????? This is actually impossible for a school to do. Once grades are posted each semester, they are sent to a centralized government entity. The only way that a grade can be changed is if the student retakes that class and does better in the class than the previous time. At that point, the grade and subsequent GPA is adjusted to reflect the higher grade. The original grade is never erased and is still in the government archives. It is illegal and IMPOSSIBLE for a school, public or private, to reverse a grade from “A’s to F’s”. This is a statement of hers that can easily be substantiated by her by providing her transcript…pre and post. Deb, did you verify this claim of hers? Did you call to verify that A’s can be turned to F’s?”
Do you honestly think this is our first rodeo with Thought Reform group apologists?
Daisy wrote:
Ha! You are correct. I could give two rips about Driscoll. I have no experience with his ministry and given everything that has been written on it, I am surprised he has a new church in AZ. Same with Doug Wilson. Some of his stuff I like and some I do not. Again, no experience with his ministry. Does that mean people have not been hurt by these men? Of course it doesn’t mean that, I just don’t know enough to comment on the matter.
I do have experience with the ministries of JMac, via TMU. None with RH, beyond the occasional chapel. I didn’t go to GCC, either. Having gone to school at TMU during the time frame Jane was there, I can speak to the culture of the school, the professors, student life etc. And I didn’t particularly care for the student life culture when I was there, to be frank. So, on a cumulative case basis, it therefore makes it hard to believe they changed her grades (for instance) and just sent her packing. However, it is possible, just not plausible.
If all this was to bring awareness, then best way to do it would be to hold these guys accountable with chargeable evidence. Masters offered to share her records, if she agreed. I know right away some of you will say that they will change her grades back, or somehow tricked her into thinking they are all F’s. Not sure the reason the transcripts have not been released by her. That would be the death nell for them.
I guarantee you that if they changed her grades, or if there was proof they did that, people would storm the gates. One of the reasons I think no reporter has taken this story is because it’s so weak on the evidence side. Lots of threats to that effect, but it’s dead in the water so far.
And finally, I don’t know Don, whoever that is and I have never heard of Fultik? In my entire life. Im just a normal guy, at a normal church (not a Jmac church) trying to figure out what happen. Hence, reading this blog. Clearly something happened.
dee wrote:
He gave the game away there. I try to engage with new people initially and give them the benefit of the doubt. If they are terrible, it wont take long for them to give the game away. They also ignore arguments they can’t answer. It doesn’t take long to tell the difference between a random person and a person with an agenda…
Muff Potter wrote:
Much agreement Mr. Potter.
Wordsmith and Poet Extraordinaire Bob Dylan put it this way:
…And it’s a hard, it’s a hard, it’s a hard, and it’s a hard
It’s a hard rain’s a-gonna fall…
New here….a friend filled me in on the story and suggested I come here to read the post. I have to say the majority of my experiences with TMU and JMac have been very negative (I attended another Christian uni in the SoCal area and worked with a lot of the TMU students at a summer job). People where I live now wonder why I cringe every time they think about sending their kids to TMU or mention JM’s newest book. I was really troubled and saddened to read this woman’s account of what happened to her and quick to think “of course it would have happened at TMU”. I think the police reports are good evidence and it sounds like more women are possibly willing to come forward? I know blaming the victim happens all the time in the church because my husband is a pastor and we have women come who have been counseled at other churches to stay with abusive spouses, or told it was their fault, etc. etc. How many times have I wanted to march into churches near me and give them a piece of my mind. The only reason I’m asking about more evidence or others coming forward is that my husband and I have been the victims of false accusations (not sexual or abuse related in nature) that we have complete evidence that we are innoncent of but yet our ministry and reputation has been destroyed because of it so I always want to be really careful about what I say about others even when my gut tells me it’s most likely true so I’m hoping there is more corroboration to come. I would love to see this brought into the light and the destructive nature of TMU exposed though. Thanks for listening to my ramblings, I hope my concerns make sense.
Lydia wrote:
Phil Johnson, meet Mary Magdalene, the “Apostle to the Apostles.”
Patrina wrote:
Heh.
This can be summed up as ‘I was there, I know everything, it’s mostly lies but I can’t tell you because ‘ethics”. Um…
Can I ask why SO MANY people seem to know all the details here? That seems like either 1. lies or 2. Evidence that nobody was careful with Jane’s confidentiality.
@ Patrina:
Thanks for alerting us about this response to Jane's testimony. It was devoid of any details that contradict what she revealed, rendering it utterly useless.
OTOH, it clearly demonstrated that the good 'ole boy network is alive and well. 😉
“But in the end, I fear Jane will have been used for an unhelpful purpose. Rather than a recipient of responsible care based upon a thorough inquiry into the truth, she seems to have become leverage for maligning”
Maybe you’ll post this comment or maybe you won’t. But I think this quote sums up this page and comment string. People only my seeing what they want to see. Controlling contradictory comments. By turning this into an echo chamber all you do is dilute your cause. But, your blog, do as you see fit.
Master’s College Grad Search (or Seminary or University or whatever)
https://www.tms.edu/find-a-church/
In my opinion, there’s a pattern among leaders influenced by John MacArthur. Many of them are vicious, arrogant, combative, and disrespectful. Although some grads are not this way, a lot are.
Regarding the search function
Not all churches with TMS grads are listed on this site. My former church, which had a vicious disrespectful John McArthur lay leader heading up some Bible studies/Sunday school classes, is NOT in this list. Be sure to ask your leaders where they were trained.
Lydia wrote:
It’s exactly what’s done by bullies and abusive sociopaths such as I personally believe John MacArthur is). My son-in-law experienced the same type of thing several years ago when he went to meet with the head pastor one-on-one at the abusive neocal church where I was once an elder. He expected a nice send off and prayer from the pastor, as my son-in-law had decided to move to another state. Instead, he was met with five leaders from the church, some of whom were painfully young, who proceeded to berate him for a good hour for his ungodliness, bringing up private matters he’d told one or two of them in confidence (thus outing some very private things to the whole group of elders) and cut him off every time he attempted to defend himself. It was an evil, premeditated sneak attack. Sounds a lot like the Holland/MacArthur allegations. Sounds a lot like the type, does it not?
@ Lynn:
Lynn, you make a lot of sense. And you are wise to ask questions after your personal experience.
And I agree with you wholeheartedly: I feel ill when I hear a friend is going to Grace or attending Master’s.
Right now my family has a friend going there, and that person is getting more and more depressed. A vibrant young Christian is going downhill. It’s almost like a cult.
Janey wrote:
And another one of Johnny Mac’s pet attack dogs rings in.
Janey wrote:
I was browsing a local church under this function and in addition to links to ‘biblical counseling’ and CBMW there was a womens ministry lady by the name of Turk. Related to same Turk? Who knows.
@ Law Prof:
Your story is familiar. The horrid John MacArthur-influenced lay leader at my former church was a gossip. I didn’t know that until about 10 years after I was in a Bible study he led.
I was nominated for a role at my church. But before the election was held, a pastor asked me about one bit of theology. It was obscure, and I knew I had mentioned it only once in my more than 20 years at the church…in that Bible study 10 years before.
So I confronted the pastor. He admitted that the JMac-fan lay leader was the gossip, and the pastor hastily approved me.
Of course I was voted in and served for many many years.
I left when I realized that any church that allows an abusive lay leader to continue has a systemic problem. Something was rotten at the top.
It was time to go. I simply resigned my position and walked away, taking my family and friends with me. I wish now I had left much earlier.
I found another church with a wonderful loving pastor who says he routinely has to repel JMac-influenced exploiters who try to gain a leadership foothold in the church.
So, this is what is obvious from this group (and other groups talking about “Jane”):
If you are not sure if you should believe “Jane” 100%, you are working for the dark side.
If you are not sure if you should automatically disbelieve TMU, you are working for the dark side.
If you say: “Let’s not jump to conclusions”, you are working for the dark side.
If you ask: “Why is this all focused on TMU and not on the rapist, you are working for the dark side.
If you question anything that “Jane” or people quoting her are saying, you are working for the dark side.
But if you choose to believe an anonymous accusation against TMU that totally skips the rapist and you believe that TMU/GCC are evil-doers without waiting to hear of their side of the story, then you must be the godly one here!
Yes, I must be some evil, sexist, chauvinist, right-wing, fundamentalist pig because I said the obvious. There is no point of denying it.
@ Patrina:
THE TRUTH will prevail.
Patrina wrote:
“Comments for the thread are now closed.”
What a COWARD!!!
M************************** wrote:
She filed a police report, dude. What is this ‘totally skips the rapist’ nonsense meme?
Apparently that’s number 4 in the talking points…
@ M**************************:
You can dish it out, but you can’t take it.
bunny wrote:
That’s why I didn’t respond as well. 😉
Lydia wrote:
That’s interesting. Wondering what city he serves in if he is one.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
I know it’s strange, but her grades being changed seems the most unbelievable part of her whole story, and the easiest thing to verify. Why hasn’t that information been released?
What’s more, the grades being changed is the things that’s most easily prosecutable — accreditation would be at stake. A lawsuit could be filed. It’s black and white — either the grades were changed or they weren’t. It’s illegal to change 3 years of grades.
As a former professor who taught at Master’s, I would have been extremely angry if anyone in administration had changed grades from years ago (or even at the end of the semester.
Wayne wrote:
That is just your opinion, Wayne. Really it is just dead in the water?–shaking my head.
mot wrote:
Yet another of Johnny Mac’s Truth Squad…
M************************** wrote:
I wonder what kind of person I am after being assaulted and the majority of people around me disbelieved me, even though in nothing else do people doubt my word.
I wonder what kind of person it makes me when I’ve seen horrible reactions from people affiliated with TMU and Grace since this incident? I mean, they seem just as bad as they claim Jane to be.
I wonder what kind of person I am that believes things like this happens all the time because both of the undergraduate schools I have attended, one public and one Christian, have been taken to court for responding in very similar ways to Jane’s story. And they were not found innocent.
I wonder what kind of person I am that believes the 20+ other TMU and Grace victims who have come forward after Jane’s story was released and said similar things happened to them there.
You claim that it’s all one-sided, but that’s exactly what your response is. And it is exactly with the attitude that makes me believe that only insufferable people as bad as they claim Jane to be that are supporting TMU’s position.
Wayne
We know who you are. I put you in slow moderation because I knew you were just another fanboy. Your final comment proved it. Don, Grace and Wayne are suck ups and we caught on very quickly. Too bad you didn’t ask for help. I could teach you how to be more subtle but, then again, subtlety isn’t your thing, is it? Now- pat each other on the back and pretend that you are very, very important in helping the Boyz maintain their stellar reputation.
In the meantime, we will continue to stand with Jane. Your silliness didn’t work…Now, you’ll try to come on again under another name. Take a writing course first.
M************************** wrote:
See you in slow moderation. You guys are sooooo weird and icky.
@ M**************************:
Thou doth protest too much. The TRUTH will prevail!
@ Anonymous2:
Thanks so much for your comment. I sincerely hope the truth regarding the grades will be revealed soon.
Since we have a regular commenter who uses the moniker ‘Anonymous’, I have added a ‘2’ to yours. Hopefully, this will alleviate any confusion should the other ‘Anonymous’ chime in.
Thanks for understanding!
Anonymous2 wrote:
Here is my 2 cents regarding grades being changed. When I was in college (before computers) students would get grades for each class via a post card in the mail and could request a transcript of grades from the Registrar’s Office. I did this to double check that there were no discrepancies. The transcript was cumulative with each semester being added to the previous semester. The transcript would be stamped “Student Copy” Employers, etc. would always need an “Official Copy” and would not accept the Student Copy. The Official Copy would have the raised college seal. The student would have no proof that grades were changed unless they had obtained an Official Copy, but the college could change grades and claim the Student Copy was not official.
M************************** wrote:
I’m a right winger myself.
Anyway.
I cannot support someone such as yourself because your concern is only for whatever your favorite college, theologian, pastor, or church is.
Had Deb or Dee published some blog posts exposing a mishandling of rape by “XYZ Christian University,” rather than of J-Mac and TMU, you would not be on here complaining.
Your concern and outrage is only because you believe your favorite university (or pastor, theological belief system) is under scrutiny. There’s no critical thinking going on with you, only blind allegiance.
No willingness shown by you to consider that maybe, just maybe, J-Mac and/or TMU is in fact wrong or did something wrong.
@ Wayne:
Thanks for verifying that you are heavily biased, you have an ulterior motive – you’re not interested in the truth, only in defending your alma mater
If you were on this blog on a regular basis, either defending ALL who Deb and Dee criticize, or better yet, defending victims of any and all theologians, Christian U.s, or pastors, I’d be able to take your comments much more seriously.
@ Ken G:
I was thinking something similar because I am old and had the same type transcripts you had. I still have sealed envelopes I kept because I bought more than I needed. (Remember, we could not open sealed official copies for colleges/jobs! ) Student copies were never “official”. I am wondering if something similar happened here. It’s so much easier to change them now.
@ Bridget:
I don’t know and not sure if he started before this happened or not. But in my experience mega churches usually have very good relationships with the police force. They often hire them off duty for traffic and security for big events.
Wayne wrote:
You really cannot see or choose not to see that Christian universities (and secular ones) and churches usually terribly mishandle rape cases.
It is SOP Standard Operating Procedure for them to either cast doubt on the woman making the rape claim (to suggest she is lying), or, if it’s granted she is honest to blame her for having been raped.
You’re playing into this disgusting dynamic, and as far as I’m concerned, it makes you a rape apologist.
You only see what you want to see about J Mac’s college.
Patrina wrote:
I am willing to listen to what they say, but until and unless I see some clear, strong evidence that disproves what Jane said via Marci’s blog,
and knowing what I know about how secular and Christian schools hand rape cases – that their default response to rape accusations –
is to try to either deny sexual assault happens on their campuses at all, or that if they admit it, they victim blame rape victims…
in the meantime, I am disinclined to believe TMS (or TMU. Whatever the acronym is for this school).
I’m not close minded or unfair.
I will look over and consider any evidence or what have you that would show they’re in the clear.
But many Christians -and their theirs and schools- have a poor, consistent track record of treating child sex abuse victims, women rape vics, and women domestic violence abuse vics, properly and with compassion.