Jane’s Traumatic Rape and Subsequent Mistreatment at John MacArthur’s ‘The Master’s College’ (now University)

"I am drifting in and out of consciousness [after unknowingly being given a soda with a date rape drug in it]. I do not know where I am.The stranger is on top of me but I can’t move. I am telling him to stop and get off of me. I hear him grinding and mixing some concoction. He is forcing me to swallow more alcohol. It tastes like it has sand in it. He insists I drink more. I wake up choking and coughing. Everything goes dark."  Excerpt from Do You See Me?

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=21599&picture=woman-face

The Master's Seminary, which is headed by Dr. John MacArthur, published the following statement on its Facebook page on September 20, 2017.

https://www.facebook.com/mastersseminary/posts/10155779958470990

What in the world were they addressing?

Two days earlier a blogger named Marci Preheim published a post entitled Do You See Me?

Dee and I are co-writing this post, and we were absolutely stunned by what we read on Marci's website. She told the horrific story of a female student named "Jane" (not her real name) who was attending The Master's College (TMC) (we believe it became a university just last year). Here is a synopsis of Jane's story.

Jane was a junior at TMC, and just before she was to go home for spring break, she fell and suffered a concussion. The doctor told her to take it easy, so she remained on campus to rest and catch up on homework. She was invited by some students from The Master's Seminary (and their girlfriends) to go to a play and then to dinner. There was a total of four guys, and Jane knew three of them. The 'stranger' in the group whom she did not know (Jane might have been introduced to him once), offered to buy her a soda, and she found it to be a kind gesture. About thirty minutes later Jane started feeling foggy and slurring her words. Then she realized she couldn't move her legs. Her friends started laughing because she was acting funny. Then Jane remembered that she had a concussion the day before and decided it would be best for her to go back to her dorm room to rest. The seminary students and their girlfriends urged the stranger to take her to her dorm room. He had to carry her out of the restaurant, and apparently, no one found that odd. Then Jane blacked out. 

Marci, who is sharing Jane's testimony, explains what happens next (see excerpt from her Do You See Me? post below):

I am drifting in and out of consciousness. I do not know where I am. The stranger is on top of me but I can’t move. I am telling him to stop and get off of me. I hear him grinding and mixing some concoction. He is forcing me to swallow more alcohol. It tastes like it has sand in it. He insists I drink more. I wake up choking and coughing. Everything goes dark.

I am awake again and it’s morning, or early afternoon. I can’t tell. I’m still in this strange bed. The stranger is carrying me to the living room where the same friends and seminary students are drinking beer and watching a movie. The stranger spills a beer on me because I can’t hold it right. I don’t want beer. I have not had food or water in some time but I cannot articulate this. Everyone is still laughing at me.

Now I’m in a strange bar. I can’t see clearly but it seems the same group of people are here along with the stranger. I look down and wonder where this dress that I’m wearing and these shoes came from. I wear a size ten and a half shoe—it’s not like I can borrow shoes from just anyone. I find out the stranger bought them and put them on me. All I can think about is that the school would not approve of these clothes or being in a bar. I’m not a rule breaker. I don’t want to get in trouble. The stranger puts a straw up to my mouth and insists that I drink. I do but it is alcohol and again, I just want some water. He is still trying to get me to drink, but I refuse. I am sliding out of the booth and onto the dirty floor but I can’t stop myself. The stranger and everyone else is still laughing. The bartender tells us to leave and take me home.

My faculties are starting to come back and I begin to understand that I have spent several days and nights in this fog. I am angry that I have been left in the care of a stranger, and am starting to think my friends don’t care about me at all. I demand to go back to my dorm but I must sound funny because they are still laughing at me. Somehow, someone took me home, or maybe I drove myself. I wake up a day and a half later.

My head is starting to clear now. I know I’ve been raped…

Jane finally made it back to her dorm room, and her head started to clear.  She went to the police, and they did a rape kit and questioned her. Then, she returned home to be with her family and the school told her she could return and they would help her with counseling. She was told to meet with Rick Holland, who was the college pastor at John MacArthur's church, which is affiliated with TMC and TMS. Rick interrogated her and asked some very inappropriate questions, such as:

Where did he touch you? Where else did he touch you? What exactly did he do? How long did he do that? What were you wearing? Are you dating him? Did he turn you on?

During his meeting with Jane, Rick Holland left the room to go and consult with John MacArthur. Then he came back with the ruling (see below):

Rick tells me that I need to be disciplined for doing drugs, drinking alcohol and almost dancing. He said the consequence for breaking the rules is that I will be kicked out of the college. He is angry at me for going to the police and the doctor. I should have let the church handle this without outside interference. He tells me not to tell anyone else, not my fellow classmates, not my teachers, not anyone at church.

“You are ruining that young man’s life!” He says.

He tells me I have to go to the police and drop the charges or I will be brought in front of the church to be disciplined. I don’t drop the charges. Not that it matters. The police interviewed my rapist and all the “friends” who were there and ruled it a “he-said, she-said” incident that can’t be proven either way.

After all of this happened, Jane finally got to go home with her parents for a few days. While there, she received a phone call from Rick Holland. He told Jane that in order for her to finish her senior year at TMC, she must agree to certain stipulations. He asked her to return campus and come to his office, which she agreed to do.

Here is the rest of Jane's testimony from Marci's Do You See Me Now? post.

I am standing outside the door to Rick’s office. I take a deep breath and feel confident that I am strong enough to do whatever it is that he asks me to do. I open the door and am shocked to see the stranger sitting there. I am starting to shake and sweat. Rick asks me to sit down by my rapist. Rick speaks for the rapist.

“He has admitted to everything he has done. He has acknowledged his sin and that this relationship was not consensual and he has repented. Look at him, he is crying.”

I don’t want to look at him but I do. I feel panicked sitting this close to him. I am wondering why I have to be present if it has become clear that I am innocent. Why wasn’t I immediately reinstated in school?

“Now it is your turn to apologize.”

I am not hearing right. I think that Rick Holland has just asked me to apologize to my rapist.

“Apologize for what?” I ask.

Rick says something about apologizing for the dress I was wearing at the bar and for drinking alcohol. He says I caused this young man to stumble, and he is incensed that I have not dropped the charges with the police. He says he has been talking to Joe and Sandra and my RD and they all say that my story keeps changing. I wonder why they are all allowed to talk about it but I am not. If I am to be reinstated in the school I must agree to weekly counseling with Rick and the stranger. I am told that the stranger and I have committed this sin together and therefore we must work through it together. I must agree to sit next to the stranger in church every week.

I don’t know where to begin. Do I start with the fact that I didn’t put that dress on or how my story isn’t changing, I am just remembering more things? I feel confused and angry. I am yelling. I hear more accusations coming out of Rick’s mouth. I am not submissive. I don’t trust the men that God has put over me. I am rebellious. He is angry and I cannot keep up with all of the attacks on my character that are flying out of his mouth. I am kicked out of school. I have less than twenty-four hours to get my things out of my room and get out. If I show up on campus, I will be arrested. They are changing my three years of earned college credits from A’s to F’s. I have flunked out of college.

It is 2008. I am still getting Facebook messages and emails from people I know at Master’s College calling me to repentance. They are rebuking me and quoting Scriptures about immorality and fornication. I know the narrative now. They have been told that I was sleeping around and was kicked out for drinking and carousing. They know my character and yet still assume it is true. Only one person from that whole community believes me—my roommate from Junior year.

It is 2017. I have told a few people over the years about what happened to me, but mostly I want to move on and live my life and forget. I can’t forget. I am trying to get my graduate degree, but on paper I failed three years of college and flunked out. I had to relive this nightmare trying to get my undergraduate Psychology degree, and now again applying for graduate school. Every time I work with rape victims, I relive my own trauma. I realize that I cannot move on until I bring this darkness into the light—even if it helps just one person—even if that person is me.

I am 32 years old and I am taking my life back. My name is Jane. Do you see me?


It is important to understand that Joe Keller from The Master's College was handling the issues of discipline regarding TMC's contention that she had broken school policy by doing drugs, etc., despite being unconscious. (!!) This was handled in separate, clandestine meetings on multiple occasions in Joe Keller's office. 

Now that you've read what happened to Jane, let's go back to the statement just released via Facebook by The Master's Seminary. We want to call attention to this part of the statement:

According to our initial internal inquiry and review of the available records, we believe the blog article is plainly incorrect, a reality we have verified with the police reports on record.

Dee and I are privy to the police report, which clearly supports Jane's account of what happened.

Due to some question about the legality of posting the entire California police report, we are posting screen shots of relevant portions of the report. The names of the victim  and the alleged assailant have been removed. Please note the following information.

(1) There was a rape kit done at a local hospital.

(2) The police were called to collect the evidence and to take a statement at the hospital.

(3) There was evidence collected to confirm that sexual activity has occurred.

Screen Shots from the Police Report

 

How can TMS and TMU officials honestly say, after reviewing the police records on record, that the blog article is 'plainly incorrect' ???

Assessment regarding the confirmed visit to the hospital and police report

We do not know how many readers have ever been present when a rape kit is employed and the police are called. Despite the professional demeanor of those involved, it is a humiliating experience. Those who go through the process are willingly submitting to invasive physical collection of evidence and invasive questioning of the alleged rape, which means repeating what happened over and over again. We believe that anyone who goes through this process is highly likely to have been so traumatized by a sexual encounter that they are willing to endure the indignities of the after process.

Even TMU admits there was a police report.

There is a witness to Jane Doe's emotional state as well as her testimony after the alleged rape

Today, a witness who can corroborate some of Jane's story came forward to Julie Anne Smith. (Yay JA!) For now, this person is anonymous but is willing to speak and give her name if it becomes necessary.

 

Dee talked to Jane Doe on two occasions and the following are some of the things that were discussed

(1) Allegations of abusive counseling techniques.

Jane chose to attend TMC because they had a biblical counseling program. Her goal was to go on and get postgraduate degrees in this field. After the shock of the drug rape wore off, she believed that she would get the best counseling available. So, when she allegedly met with Rick Holland who was to counsel her, she decided to answer every question that she was asked because she thought that he would know what he was doing. Sadly, some of those question were incredibly invasive and, in my opinion, downright sickening. She was asked about how she had dressed that evening. However, the one that takes the cake is that she was allegedly asked if she "had an orgasm".

I had to pause to take a deep breath. For those of you who are not educated in physiological reactions, having an orgasm is a biological response to stimulation and can occur in any sort of traumatic sexual encounter for both males and females. If this sort of questioning occurred, then it is abusive and the counselor is doing unbelievable harm to the individual.

I left a message for Rick Holland on his church voice mail asking him about his counseling of Jane. At this point, I have not received a response.

Here is a comment received by Jane from a supposed Master's student. In this comment you will see more misinformation. They are apparently taught to believe that there is no drug that can make a person sin – not even a date rape drug. Here is a portion of an email that Jane received. It relays a conversation between the writer and another person.

2. Did TMU change all of her grades for three years of work to failing grades? because they decided she was a sinner?

Jane told me that she had been a very good student in all of her classes. The school allegedly changed her grades after she was forced to leave the school. It took her 8 years to complete a 4 year degree. 

Here is Jane's assigned list of tasks given to her on April 27. She was to be gone!

Why is 'Jane' speaking out now and what does she want?

Jane asked me (Dee) to say that she is not doing this to cause trouble. She is doing this so that other people who have or will experience the same thing will know they are not alone. She is hoping that her story will cause TMU and other universities and churches to change how they approach victims of rape and assault.

The terrible combination of a date rape drug, forced consumption of alcohol, and a concussion.

Jane was asked to go out with seminary students, their girlfriends and an individual whom she believed was a roommate of one of the seminary students. Remember, at this point, she was enamored of Master's University and the Seminary. She had a naïve view that Master's Seminary students were the epitome of Christian students, and she totally trusted them. She had no intention of drinking, which is mentioned in her narrative.

 Not to brag or anything but I hang out with the smart crowd, and the smart crowd hangs out with the seminary students from The Master’s Seminary. They invite me to go to a play in town and then to dinner. I probably shouldn’t but it’s an approved outing as some of the seminary guys are bringing their girlfriends, and of course there will be no drinking, drugs, or dancing. We all had to sign a contract that we would not do those three things while attending Masters. It doesn’t bother me. I don’t drink or do drugs anyway.

Four of the seminary students live together and I know three of them. The fourth, a stranger who I have met maybe once, sits by me at dinner and asks if he can get me a soda. I thank him and say yes, but about a half an hour later I start to feel foggy. 

While she was under the influence of this drug, she was brought to a bar. Let me say this loud and clear. No matter what the rules are at TMU, Jane is not responsible for anything that happened after she was given that drugged drink. In fact, she may not have been responsible before it happened if she had been diagnosed with a concussion. Anyone who judges someone as guilty under these circumstances is either stupid, mean, or both.  

Did the TMU counselors remember the concussion? 

This is quite important! Jane had a medical condition, which could have added to her confusion. Here is the pertinent excerpt from Jane's story.

Spring break starts tomorrow. I was going to go home today but last night I hit my head and suffered a concussion. The doctor said I need to take it easy so I decide to stay on campus and catch up on rest and homework

Did any of these *ace* counselors consider getting her thoroughly examined for a concussion by a medical professional? Or does brain injury get ignored since biblical counseling loves to focus on sin? If Jane was drugged on top of a concussion, she was at high risk of a serious medical event. But, she may have stepped foot into a bar while drugged, and that was far more important to these boyz.

TMU says this guy wasn't a student, but Rick Holland involved him in the counseling process?? We say BALONEY!!

TMU makes a big deal that the alleged rapist was never a student at TMU or TMS. That is irrelevant. She assumed he was since he was buddy buddy with several *glorious* seminary students.

But wait, something is wrong. If the alleged rapist wasn't a student, then why did Rick Holland involve him in the counseling of Jane? As Shakespeare's character Marcellus declared in Hamlet:

"Something is rotten in the state of Denmark."

Here are statements from Jane's counseling sessions with Rick Holland, which are included in the Do You See Me? post.

“You are ruining that young man’s life!” He (Rick) says.

…I’m home with my parents now. I receive a call from Rick Holland. There are a few stipulations that I must agree to if I want to finish my senior year at The Master’s College. I plan to do whatever they tell me to do so I can get my degree and get out of there. He asks me to come in and meet with him.

I am standing outside the door to Rick’s office. I take a deep breath and feel confident that I am strong enough to do whatever it is that he asks me to do. I open the door and am shocked to see the stranger sitting there. I am starting to shake and sweat. Rick asks me to sit down by my rapist. Rick speaks for the rapist.

“He has admitted to everything he has done. He has acknowledged his sin and that this relationship was not consensual and he has repented. Look at him, he is crying.”

I don’t want to look at him but I do. I feel panicked sitting this close to him. I am wondering why I have to be present if it has become clear that I am innocent. Why wasn’t I immediately reinstated in school?

“Now it is your turn to apologize.”

I am not hearing right. I think that Rick Holland has just asked me to apologize to my rapist.

“Apologize for what?” I ask.

Rick says something about apologizing for the dress I was wearing at the bar and for drinking alcohol. He says I caused this young man to stumble, and he is incensed that I have not dropped the charges with the police. He says he has been talking to Joe and Sandra and my RD and they all say that my story keeps changing. I wonder why they are all allowed to talk about it but I am not. If I am to be reinstated in the school I must agree to weekly counseling with Rick and the stranger. I am told that the stranger and I have committed this sin together and therefore we must work through it together. I must agree to sit next to the stranger in church every week.

*** READERS:  What do you think about this non-student that TMU's Rick Holland 'counseled'? ***

The lack of love by TMU: they are raising up legalists

As I (Dee) have mentioned, I am taking a seminary course on pastoral leadership given by a conservative seminary. Interestingly, this seminary majors on kindness and love. In the class, stories of abusive church tactics are analyzed and discussed. There really are some good guys out there, folks.

The statement from TMU doesn't demonstrate one little bit of kindness and love. As I review Jane's statement, which I believe, I see an emphasis on rules and a blatant disregard for the real problem: a good student who loved Master's was raped and needed help, not condemnation. Somehow, i do not believe Jesus would be concerned about what she wore and whether or not she had an orgasm in the midst of a violent act. I wonder why TMU believes that this is an appropriate example of biblical counseling. 

Given the concussion, date rape drug, visit to the hospital and rape kit, along with the ridiculous counseling approach, we believe the victim might want to explore a legal remedy.

No doubt there will be more information forthcoming, so we will definitely keep you posted.


We have known of Rick Holland the entire time we have been blogging. Rick was very involved in planning all of the Resolved Conferences that took place from 2005 until 2012.

I (Deb) will never forget watching the 2009 "Resolved" Conference trailer right around the time we launched TWW (on March 19, 2009). It was terribly upsetting to me, so much so that I later wrote a post about it entitled The Scream of the Damned and the Last Straw.

Take a look (Rick Holland appears at the 3 minute mark).

Several years ago we learned that Rick Holland and his family were leaving California and moving to the Midwest so Rick could pastor a church there. Now that Jane's story has surfaced, it leaves us wondering what REALLY happened during Rick's counseling sessions with students at TMU. Perhaps others will come forward with their testimonies…

Comments

Jane’s Traumatic Rape and Subsequent Mistreatment at John MacArthur’s ‘The Master’s College’ (now University) — 676 Comments

  1. Deb wrote:

    “Comments for the thread are now closed.”
    What a COWARD!!!

    I just skimmed it over. The line “there are two sides to every story” moldy oldy stood out to me.

    What I find annoying about pages like that…. who ever wrote it (a guy?) – he starts out going on and on about how heinous sexual assault is…

    But then spends the rest of the page trying to convince readers Jane is making it all up, the college deserves a huge benny of the doubt….

    He’s engaging in the very sort of behavior that enables rape culture to continue, that makes vics of rape feel uncomfortable publicly speaking up (especially under their real names).

    If you’re truly against rape, please kindly stop it with the long apologetic posts imploring readers to give the college the benny and assume Jane is probably a lying McLiar. Thanks.

  2. I really think the issue of the grades is important . Especially since it was part of the narrative.

  3. @ Leslie:
    Since the McArthur crowd thinks it’s so important, I don’t. That is how little I trust them and they showed their hand on that score on this thread. Been around this game too long.

    I think it might have been used as intimidation and control and she believed them. She was locked out of her account.

    They hope the grade thing is going to sink her credibility. They really are that evil, IMO.

  4. Daisy wrote:

    But many Christians -and their … schools- have a poor, consistent track record of treating child sex abuse victims, women rape vics, and women domestic violence abuse vics, properly and with compassion.

    – “You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free,” may not be one of their pillars. (John 8:32) or
    – “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father, except by Me,” – Jesus (John 14:6);
    – “If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth,” 1 John 1:6;
    – “Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth,” 1 John 3:18.
    – Etc. Truth. Tell the truth, respect the truth, respond to the truth. Simple. Can be costly and definitive.

    In Sunday School, little ones are taught to tell the truth. What happens when they tell the truth about something leadership & their group (in power to do something about it), don’t like? It’s a Y at the road, a turning point… of whose side are we on now? The truth side or the lie side (with the father of lies)?

  5. Lydia wrote:

    @ Leslie:
    Since the McArthur crowd thinks it’s so important, I don’t. That is how little I trust them and they showed their hand on that score on this thread. Been around this game too long.
    I think it might have been used as intimidation and control and she believed them. She was locked out of her account.
    They hope the grade thing is going to sink her credibility. They really are that evil, IMO.

    Nevertheless, I still think it is important. A lot of her credibility is based on the grades issue. Any other college she applied to should have a record if those grades. This should be easily proved one way or the other. Since she brought it up , it us an important issue.

  6. Leslie wrote:

    I really think the issue of the grades is important . Especially since it was part of the narrative.

    If it’s true and really happened, in one aspect, yes, not only was this poor lady sexually assaulted by some creep sicko deviant loser man, but, her college mistreated her by changing her good grades to failing ones, which is highly unfair.

    Other than that, I’m not seeing the obsession with it. I think J-Mac fan boys are wanting to hold on to this to somehow disprove Jane’s narrative is all it amounts to. “But all she would have to do is trot out the forged report cards, that would prove instantly that JMac Uni if a liar.”

    I bet you that even if she could or would produce the falsified grades, that the JMac fans would move the goal posts to some other golden standard or proof they insist on seeing before they will believe their college is a rapist’s paradise.

  7. JYJames wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    But many Christians -and their … schools- have a poor, consistent track record of treating child sex abuse victims, women rape vics, and women domestic violence abuse vics, properly and with compassion.

    I wanted to say I think I worded that post of mine awkwardly. I was trying to communicate that 99% of the time, 99% of churches and Christian schools treat rape victims and domestic violence victims like trash. But I worded it weird.

    I’ve also been making a lot of typos in my posts here the last two days – I’m big on typing “is” for the word “if” or vice versa, for example. Hopefully everyone can make out what I’m trying to say even though my working or typing is messed up.

  8. Daisy wrote:

    Leslie wrote:
    I really think the issue of the grades is important . Especially since it was part of the narrative.
    If it’s true and really happened, in one aspect, yes, not only was this poor lady sexually assaulted by some creep sicko deviant loser man, but, her college mistreated her by changing her good grades to failing ones, which is highly unfair.
    Other than that, I’m not seeing the obsession with it. I think J-Mac fan boys are wanting to hold on to this to somehow disprove Jane’s narrative is all it amounts to. “But all she would have to do is trot out the forged report cards, that would prove instantly that JMac Uni if a liar.”
    When my daughter was a college student in Arizona, she needed her transcripts from her college in Ca. I went to the registrars office and for a fee got her sealed transcripts ( this was 2001, before the days if everything being online.) it was not that hard.
    I bet you that even if she could or would produce the falsified grades, that the JMac fans would move the goal posts to some other golden standard or proof they insist on seeing before they will believe their college is a rapist’s paradise.

  9. Leslie wrote:

    A lot of her credibility is based on the grades issue.

    I don’t think I agree with this.

    If I understand your point….
    You’re arguing if she is lying about having the grades changed, that means, what?

    That she is also lying about having been raped, or lying about the insensitive block-head University or church guy insisting she meets with her rapist weekly for counseling, and lying about everything else, too?

  10. Afraid my last post may have gotten lost.

    When my daughter was a college student in Arizona she needed her transcripts from her college in Ca. I went to the Regustrars office and for a small fee got her sealed transcripts.( this was 2001, before the days of everything being online) It was not that hard..

  11. Leslie wrote:

    When my daughter was a college student in Arizona, she needed her transcripts from her college in Ca. I went to the registrars office and for a fee got her sealed transcripts ( this was 2001, before the days if everything being online.) it was not that hard.

    I already got into this topic on page 1.

    When I graduated from the second Uni I went to (and I went there for about 2.5 yrs), they mailed me a transcript showing all my grades after I graduated from there.

    But so what?

    That would not show that they changed everything or not, if they had.

    If I started my educational career there with straight A’s, and they later went to their computer system and changed those grades to mostly F’s, I would have no way to prove that to your satisfaction.

    All I would have is a final transcript print out showing mostly F’s. I’d have no way of showing the first years I had A’s.

    At the last Uni. I attended, I did not get sent report cards every quarter to verify a history my grades.

    The only thing I had for a few years were the hand-graded, paper quizzes and research papers from Uni profs that said “Grade: A” on them.

    (I kept those for a long time in shoe boxes in my closet and may still have them.)

    I only got one final set, one batch, a transcript, that showed ALL classes I took while there.

    It never would’ve dawned on me to go to the Uni. every single quarter to pay for, or request, a report card.

    I would not assume that my Uni was filled with lying bastards who would later change my A’s to F’s.

  12. Wayne wrote:

    Julie Anne wrote:
    This story is really not about Jane. She just got the ball rolling.
    Glad to know facts don’t matter and this is really just a witch hunt. That’s rather shameful in and of itself. You want the accusations to be true and even if they’re not, well you’ll steam forward anyways. This movement loses credibility by the day for failure to be objective. That girls story is being lost in the desire for mob justice.

    Actually, I think people have a desire to hear the truth, the actual truth, and people like you have a strong desire that it be obfuscated at all costs. In another post you spoke of this place as an “echo chamber”. Have you no sense of irony? The places TWW criticizes are in very sum and substance echo chambers that simply do not care about the truth. You’re the one with zero credibility.

  13. Wayne wrote:

    dee wrote:
    Wayne wrote:
    Funny. not true in the least.
    Why should we believe you? As far as I know, you are a woman and married to Frank Turk. Wayne, it is how you come across in your comments. That is all we have to go on here. And, I haven’t talked with you like I have talked with Jane.
    I don’t know good point. I don’t mean to come across as dismissive. Honestly. I’m protecting no one. Who am I? I’m a nobody in that world. I’m not even in the same theological camp. I will agree the seminary produces a certain kind of pastor at times, from my experience, that is not healthy. Very divisive amongst the body. JMac truth warriors etc. And the irony is, that in all
    My interactions with JMac at school and later in life he struck me as very pastoral and frankly, normal. I’d like to think I’m not brain washed etc so that’s my gut on it.
    Now could there have been horrendous handling by staff and RH? Sure that’s def possible. It’s just hard to see how one proves that to see them held accountable. The grades thing comes to mind but beyond email exchanges etc, I’m not hopeful.

    Your gut’s wrong. You’re wrong. No, you’re not brainwashed, you know what you’re doing, and frankly, you just don’t care.

  14. Lydia wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    I can introduce you to some megachurch pastors who are masters in the art of deceptive totalitarian niceness. They aren’t in the Cal movement but their entire livelihood depends on being perceived as nice. The only time the mask slips is in private meetings with minions afraid of losing their place in the inner ring. The adoring fans in the pews would never believe you, anyway.

    Hey Lydia, I’ve seen it up close and person multiple times. Was twice an elder in what turned out to be extremely abusive places. Saw the mask fall down multiple times. Not only were these nice pastors not nice people, I have to think, based on what I experienced first hand, that they were people given over completely to evil, hating the truth, hating God’s people and God Himself.

  15. M************************** wrote:
    But if you choose to believe an anonymous accusation against TMU that totally skips the rapist and you believe that TMU/GCC are evil-doers without waiting to hear of their side of the story, then you must be the godly one here!

    I believe the allegations because they are entirely consistent with what I have read about TMU, what I know about their beliefs, the way I have heard JMac treat the Bible for 30 or more years, the behavior of a pastor who I was an elder alongside who was a graduate of TMU and formerly on the staff of GCC. I know this from a lot of experience over decades.

    The problem is, you’re looking at a herd of wild pigs with a reputation for viciousness, hearing about an allegation that they rushed a farmer and killed him dead, and then wondering why oh why people are thinking the worst. The problem is, you’re just downright foolish.

  16. I am sickened by this whole thing. I pray that justice will be done, and the wrongdoers will be punished.

    I have a friend whose son is a student at that very college. I am debating whether to show him this post. I just hope his daughter doesn’t decide to go there too….

    I haven’t had the chance to read every comment here, so if I am repeating someone else’s point, I apologize.

    Has anyone pointed out that the rapist had the drugs in his possession when he went to the restaurant that night? I don’t think they sell roofies in restaurant men’s room vending machines… do they? He brought the drugs with him. He was on the prowl, looking for a victim. The rape was premeditated.

    And since he got away with it, he has probably done it again.

  17. Lydia wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    If the pew sitters only knew how much they despised them, it would all be over in the blink of an eye.

    I have heard that exactly on point. Pastor Ed (not a Calvinist in any respect, by the way, in fact, a full-blooded Holiness Arminian) would set up private meetings with me as an elder in which he revealed confidences that other parishioners had revealed to him in counseling and would berate them repeatedly behind their backs. I got the impression that he had spitting contempt for every single one of them, to a man and woman, and thought himself a superior being. Not only should he not have been pastor, he should not have been even allowed through the church doors except for the church to attempt evangelism work on him to attempt to convince him to repent and turn to God.

  18. Law Prof wrote:

    It’s exactly what’s done by bullies and abusive sociopaths such as I personally believe John MacArthur is). My son-in-law experienced the same type of thing several years ago when he went to meet with the head pastor one-on-one at the abusive neocal church where I was once an elder. He expected a nice send off and prayer from the pastor, as my son-in-law had decided to move to another state. Instead, he was met with five leaders from the church, some of whom were painfully young, who proceeded to berate him for a good hour for his ungodliness, bringing up private matters he’d told one or two of them in confidence (thus outing some very private things to the whole group of elders) and cut him off every time he attempted to defend himself. It was an evil, premeditated sneak attack. Sounds a lot like the Holland/MacArthur allegations. Sounds a lot like the type, does it not?

    By the way, the pastor at the bottom of this abuse described here? A TMS grad (he went there when it was called that) and a former member of the pastoral staff at GCC. This was a guy who worked with JMac on a day-to-day basis, learning from him, learning from the system. And people wonder why I scoff when they try to soft sell the damage JMac has done to so many. I honestly believe he has hurt a lot of people and cares not one whit for anything or anyone other than JMac, and, without repentance, will one day answer to God for it.

  19. Leslie wrote:

    Nevertheless, I still think it is important. A lot of her credibility is based on the grades issue. Any other college she applied to should have a record if those grades. This should be easily proved one way or the other. Since she brought it up , it us an important issue.

    No, her credibility is not based on the grades issue.

    The burden of proof is on TMC/TMU. They would have to produce copies of every official transcript of Jane’s grades they sent out and the names of the intended recipients. The intended recipients would each have to sign an affidavit attesting that the copies TMC/TMU has now produced are a facsimile of those they received years ago. This may be difficult or even impossible to accomplish due to record retention policies of the recipients.

    Assuming there was no grade changing, I would agree that this tactic was used for intimidation and control and Jane believed them.

  20. StillWiggling wrote:

    He was on the prowl, looking for a victim. The rape was premeditated.

    Which makes him a predator; the other three guys, thus, hang out with a predator. Apparently there were a number of witnesses who went along with what the predator was doing to Jane, complicit.

    The predator is the worst type of dangerous personality, according to FBI profiler, Joe Navarro. (from narcissist, to emotionally unstable, to paranoid – the unibomber, to predator – Ted Bundy)

  21. Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:

    LABC, and now TMU, has been, and continues to be YEC, and they teach that psychology is all wrong since it is based on secular humanism….

    I’m currently rather agnostic about age of the earth and some of the related subjects that get debated here, but is it really necessary to lump YEC in with all this other stuff?
    Even in my YEC days, I wasn’t anti- psychology, nor did I deny that Christian universities are jerks about how they deal with rape accusations.

  22. StillWiggling wrote:

    he has probably done it again.

    When I read stories like this I always worry about children in the person’s life. The five Wheaton college boys that tried to rape the other college boy are disturbing. I fear for their nieces, nephews, and future children. They should not be allowed to have children.

    My cousins and me were sexually abused when we were toddlers. I conclude rapist and perverts go after toddlers because they can’t speak yet.

    One of my cousins committed suicide because he was raped as a young boy, another is in prison because he was repeatedly sexually abused growing up starting when he was a toddler.

    People should ask themselves, will these perverts go after babies because they cant tell? My cousins cant and don’t talk about it, but I know it happened because I was there.

  23. Lydia wrote:

    @ Leslie:
    Ok. I hope Jane is strong enough now not to care what you McArthur types think.

    I have commented on this post for years. I am the last person that anyone would think is a McArthur type. It is kind of scary that when someone speaks their mind that they can be automatically verbally assualted. I actually emailed Dee and Deb several days ago and offered to help Jane. Just because someone is not lockstep does not mean they are not well meaningful no ir that they are wrong. Hard questions need hard answers. Friendly fire still kills.

  24. @ Leslie:

    Okay, my response to you is hung up, not published. Here is part of what it said:
    – – – – – –
    I already got into this topic on page 1.

    When I graduated from the second Uni I went to (and I went there for about 2.5 yrs), they mailed me a transcript showing all my grades after I graduated from there.

    But so what?
    That would not show that they changed everything or not, if they had.

    If I started my educational career there with straight A’s, and they later went to their computer system and changed those grades to mostly F’s, I would have no way to prove that to your satisfaction.

    All I would have is a final transcript print out showing mostly F’s. I’d have no way of showing the first years I had A’s.

  25. Wayne wrote:

    By turning this into an echo chamber all you do is dilute your cause.

    I'm not a JMac or TMU follower so maybe someone inform me whether Wayne's folks allow contrary comments such as his on their sites? I always get a kick out of someone who accuses this site as being an echo chamber while they defend those who only allow accolades and block all contrary comment on their own sites. I'm curious if this is yet another example.

  26. Law Prof wrote:

    Actually, I think people have a desire to hear the truth, the actual truth, and people like you have a strong desire that it be obfuscated at all costs. In another post you spoke of this place as an “echo chamber”. Have you no sense of irony? The places TWW criticizes are in very sum and substance echo chambers that simply do not care about the truth. You’re the one with zero credibility.

    Not only that (I agree), but as I (and a few others) have said before, it’s the sheer repetition of it that lends credibility to Jane and her version of events.

    I don’t have to see stuff such as a “before” and “after” transcript to see that she’s telling the truth
    (and what college is going to give you a “Before and After” set of transcripts, which would show they changed your scores, please, let’s get real)?

    The fact is, for many years now (I’m in my mid 40s now), I’ve seen the same cycle reported in the news (and now on blogs) time and time again, via secular and Christian colleges:

    Woman reports being raped by fellow student; either gets pegged as a liar by the University, or, they say, “we believe you, ~BUT~, you are half responsible for the rape, because you were out late, drank a beer, and wore a short skirt at the time.”

    Then the female victim gets penalized, kicked out, and/or the male perp gets zero punishment from the school.

  27. Daisy wrote:

    I don’t have to see stuff such as a “before” and “after” transcript to see that she’s telling the truth
    (and what college is going to give you a “Before and After” set of transcripts, which would show they changed your scores, please, let’s get real)?

    I don’t recall reading anyone requiring “before” and “after” transcripts, whatever that means. One thing is certain, the facts are in dispute. If I understand correctly, TMC/TMU believes that Jane’s claim of grade altering, changing all A’s to F’s, is not true. At this point in time we don’t know Jane’s official grades. As I previously mentioned in an earlier post, the burden of proof is on TMC/TMU to provide the official transcript sent to all recipients, using the procedure I had described. This would then establish Jane’s official grades and Jane’s official grades would no longer be in dispute. That’s all it would accomplish, nothing more.

  28. Ken G wrote:

    At this point in time we don’t know Jane’s official grades. As I previously mentioned in an earlier post, the burden of proof is on TMC/TMU to provide the official transcript sent to all recipients, using the procedure I had described. This would then establish Jane’s official grades and Jane’s official grades would no longer be in dispute. That’s all it would accomplish, nothing more.

    The only thing TMU people haven’t denied is that she was disciplined. In fact, several of them have said she was disciplined because “everybody knew she was a liar and drinking and taking drugs”. That’s the one thing they don’t seem to think is false or that she was undeserving of. And to discipline her for making a police report, which they do not deny because they see the report as proof of her drinking and having drugs, I think that’s really morally bankrupt. They claimed that her report of the rape is false because it was never prosecuted, so that also mean she deserved to be punished. Of course, that’s not how any police report works, but that is what they are spreading too all the people affiliated with Grace.

    So even if the grade changing was true and changed back, or a threat to make her compliant, or still true, they don’t deny the fact that they disciplined her for reporting a rape. They decided on their own it was a lie without taking her to court to prove it was a false allegation, which is what legally is required to assert an allegation of this nature is false. They may have just kicked her out of school, but for an accredited college to do so based on a police report she herself made may be illegal at best and problematic from an accreditation standpoint at least.

    But considering I saw several of them admit to other illegal things, like giving out her private information to people not directly employed to handle this at TMU, I don’t think they really understand that TMU is still bound to follow the law. Just because their university is affiliated with a church doesn’t mean they get to do whatever they want.

  29. Pingback: Wednesday Link List | Thinking Out Loud UNITED STATES

  30. @ ishy:
    Great comment! I get the feeling they may be trying to run the U like they do their churches. And I think they made some tactical errors that had there been push back at the time could have been a big problem for them.

    If F grades had been part of the discipline intimidation, there won’t be any record. That could be why McArthurites have been insistent she must produce that for credibility.

    That is definitely something people from that world would pull.

    That is the cruelty of messing with someone like that in horrible trauma. They used her trauma to their advantage. Now they use it again. It’s why rape and DV victims need an advocate right away.

  31. Leslie wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    @ Leslie:
    Ok. I hope Jane is strong enough now not to care what you McArthur types think.
    I have commented on this post for years. I am the last person that anyone would think is a McArthur type. It is kind of scary that when someone speaks their mind that they can be automatically verbally assualted. I actually emailed Dee and Deb several days ago and offered to help Jane. Just because someone is not lockstep does not mean they are not well meaningful no ir that they are wrong. Hard questions need hard answers. Friendly fire still kills.

    Sorry. You presented similar to those insisting the grade thing will either clear her or prove she is lying about everything.

    But the grade thing can also be a he-said-she-said. And that is because it could have easily been used as intimidation in the discipline process during her trauma. She was subsequently locked out of her account. So there may be no way to prove it. I think the MacArthurites are counting on that which is why they tried to deflect the thread and make everything about the grades. If you deal with these people long enough you know their patterns.

    I can relate to not being in lockstep. I happen to think all patriarchy is bad not just Christian patriarchy. 🙂 (And Matriarchy, too)

    I appreciate your offering of help and comfort to the victim.

  32. @ Thersites:

    Pyromaniacs were terrible about not allowing any dissent. Only adoring females we're allowed. It was an exact replica of an echo chamber. It was hateful. It had a good run but became extremely contentious. People in that world of exacting doctrinal standards usually end up eating each other over things like cessation. Word on the cyber street is that MacArthur told Phil Johnson to back off of it. We often used Pyro as an example of what that authoritarian bubble world is really like.

  33. Lydia wrote:

    @ Leslie:
    Since the McArthur crowd thinks it’s so important, I don’t.

    Ha. I love this logic.

    It’s just the next thing in the talking points. Maybe they think that is what they can defend best? The fact that they have complete control over the transcripts probably helps. What did they do then/What could they do now?

  34. Lydia wrote:

    I think it might have been used as intimidation and control and she believed them. She was locked out of her account.

    Yes.

    I think I said this before but the way I read Jane’s story is that she wrote it as if she was back in that time, as she experienced it. Maybe later she found out the guy wasn’t a seminary student, but was someone affiliated in some way as speculated (maybe went to the church, worked in someones office, etc). But she didn’t know that *then*. She had trouble with transcripts, they scared her, etc. Maybe they told her things or led her to believe things…maybe she had a terrible time accessing her records and it affected her ability to apply to other schools.

    I don’t read her story as what she knows now, but what she knew then. So any fact checking based on things she couldn’t have known at the time doesn’t really resonate with me.

  35. ishy wrote:

    The only thing TMU people haven’t denied is that she was disciplined. In fact, several of them have said she was disciplined because “everybody knew she was a liar and drinking and taking drugs”. That’s the one thing they don’t seem to think is false or that she was undeserving of. And to discipline her for making a police report, which they do not deny because they see the report as proof of her drinking and having drugs, I think that’s really morally bankrupt

    yes. All of this. Reporting rape should not result in discipline.

  36. Lydia wrote:

    We often used Pyro as an example of what that authoritarian bubble world is really like.

    As HUG would say, it’s a mini-version of North Korea.

  37. ishy wrote:

    I don’t think they really understand that TMU is still bound to follow the law.

    Already anticipated you, Ishy.
    The standard comeback is “WHOSE LAW? LAWS OF MEN OR LAW OF GAWD?????????”

  38. ishy wrote:

    The only thing TMU people haven’t denied is that she was disciplined. In fact, several of them have said she was disciplined because “everybody knew she was a liar and drinking and taking drugs”. That’s the one thing they don’t seem to think is false or that she was undeserving of. And to discipline her for making a police report, which they do not deny because they see the report as proof of her drinking and having drugs….

    Isn’t a standard defense against a rape charge to “paint the victim as a whore who was asking for it”?

    https://nakedpastor.com/2012/09/mark-driscoll-woman-is-whore/
    (Couldn’t find link to the pic alone. And searching for it… Just enter “driscoll” in the search box at Naked Pastor and Woo! What comes up!)

  39. Lydia wrote:

    I think it might have been used as intimidation and control and she believed them. She was locked out of her account.
    They hope the grade thing is going to sink her credibility. They really are that evil, IMO.

    I hadn’t thought of them lying about changing her grades, and then leaving them untouched. Good catch, Lydia.

    My own theory is that they’re groping for something with which they can positively identify “Jane”, so that they can proceed to smear her full-throttle. They could use info gleaned from records and talk from former classmates — maybe even previous counselling sessions, if they’re prepared to sink that low. Scientology does it every time a former member goes public.

    And Phil Johnson’s daughter-in-law Susi is doing exactly that on Facebook, BTW. She claims to have seen “Jane’s” real name posted here by accident briefly (no offence to the Deebs, and I hope she’s wrong). Based on that info, Susi is claiming that the victim in this case is an attention junkie and compulsive liar, and that nothing stated in Marci’s post is true.

    The obvious question being: Even if Susi knows who this woman really is, how can she possibly know what went on behind closed doors?

  40. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    The obvious question being: Even if Susi knows who this woman really is, how can she possibly know what went on behind closed doors?

    Because she heard the campus gossip of course! *eyeroll*

    That seems to be what a lot of this comes down to, assuming it isn’t lies. Campus gossip. Which if she was smeared because they wanted to throw her out…it would make sense that her reputation wasn’t great. That was on purpose. You can’t then go around and use that to prove she was lying. It doesn’t do that.

    And not for nothing, whatever they are claiming about her, you can be an imperfect person and still get raped and it still not be your fault.

  41. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    The obvious question being: Even if Susi knows who this woman really is, how can she possibly know what went on behind closed doors?

    I can’t imagine . . . it couldn’t possibly be because people at the school gossipped about her? or shared information that should not have been shared with anyone?

  42. Bridget wrote:

    I can’t imagine . . . it couldn’t possibly be because people at the school gossipped about her? or shared information that should not have been shared with anyone?

    She actually confirmed this was the case herself. She let way too much slip in those posts. She said that after she found out who it was, she went to Jane’s RA and got the low down on Jane.

  43. ishy wrote:

    She actually confirmed this was the case herself. She let way too much slip in those posts. She said that after she found out who it was, she went to Jane’s RA and got the low down on Jane.

    More rot in their camp.

  44. @ Patrina:

    Why do you keep trying to repost this? The link does not work, as I’m sure you know. If her name was accidentally posted, I’m sure the article was taken down to fix that error.

    You posted previous strange comment and this one is strange in that a person who is concerned about Jane’s annonimity would not repost a link that might have her real name. What is up with you?

  45. Lydia wrote:

    Pyromaniacs were terrible about not allowing any dissent. Only adoring females we’re allowed. It was an exact replica of an echo chamber. It was hateful. It had a good run but became extremely contentious. People in that world of exacting doctrinal standards usually end up eating each other over things like cessation.

    Predators sealed into their own little echo chamber with no Prey available.
    What happens when they get hungry?

  46. Ken G wrote:

    I don’t recall reading anyone requiring “before” and “after” transcripts, whatever that means. One thing is certain, the facts are in dispute. If I understand correctly, TMC/TMU believes that Jane’s claim of grade altering, changing all A’s to F’s, is not true. At this point in time we don’t know Jane’s official grades. As I previously mentioned in an earlier post, the burden of proof is on TMC/TMU to provide the official transcript sent to all recipients, using the procedure I had described. This would then establish Jane’s official grades and Jane’s official grades would no longer be in dispute. That’s all it would accomplish, nothing more.

    Seeing her official grades would not prove anything either way.

    If they produce her grades, and her final report card says all or mostly F’s, that doesn’t prove anything.

    Her detractors could just say “she flunked her classes because she was lazy and played hooky.”

    She’s have to have the “before” copies. Before the schools changed her A’s to F’s to show they intervened. And they’re not going to do that.

  47. Lea wrote:

    She had trouble with transcripts, they scared her, etc. Maybe they told her things or led her to believe things…maybe she had a terrible time accessing her records and it affected her ability to apply to other schools.
    I don’t read her story as what she knows now, but what she knew then. So any fact checking based on things she couldn’t have known at the time doesn’t really resonate with me.

    All good points. I read her commentary in the same way – she was writing it from the view of how she felt and thought at the time all the incidents happened.

  48. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    The standard comeback is “WHOSE LAW? LAWS OF MEN OR LAW OF GAWD?????????”

    I sometimes wonder if the Christians who scream so loud about being sola scriptura and believing the Bible actually read the Bible? Because it doesn’t seem like it.

    Submission to Governing Authorities
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2013

    Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
    2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
    3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong.

  49. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    Based on that info, Susi is claiming that the victim in this case is an attention junkie and compulsive liar, and that nothing stated in Marci’s post is true.

    Are these Christians and ones like them in denial that rape does happen to women Christian university students, and that Christian Uni’s are notorious (as are many secular campuses) for mishandling them?

    Or do they live in this weird parallel universe in which there is no such thing as rape of college women?

  50. Daisy wrote:

    Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
    Based on that info, Susi is claiming that the victim in this case is an attention junkie and compulsive liar, and that nothing stated in Marci’s post is true.
    Are these Christians and ones like them in denial that rape does happen to women Christian university students, and that Christian Uni’s are notorious (as are many secular campuses) for mishandling them?
    Or do they live in this weird parallel universe in which there is no such thing as rape of college women?

    If anonymous Jane were an “attention junkie” I rather think she wouldn’t keep her identity anonymous. And I think she would have come out publicly before this and talked about it all over social media. And she probably would have gone to news media outlets so a journalist could tell her story.

  51. So, there is one very interesting tidbit that no-one seems to have mentioned. And honestly, I think it is a point that indicates more about the schools manipulative tendancies than it does about Jane. I do not think this changes the validity of Jane’s report, in fact, it think it looks TMC look really bad.

    If TMC changed her grades after the fact to F’s, they would look very strange to have allowed a chronically failing student to stay through her Junior Year and not repeat any classes. She certainly wouldn’t have earned a Junior Status, and she would not have been allowed to take any courses that required Pre-requisites which she had supposedly failed. An F is not an earned credit. Any college reviewing this bizarre transcript is going to question it’s validity.

    I think it is far more likely that TMC threatened to have all her grades changed, knowing full well that they could not send a transcript to a new school and maintain any sort of half way decent reputation as an academic institution. Did she believe them? Absolutely! She was being blindsided with their poor character after an extremely traumatizing event that now leads to more traumatizing events.

    I also think that if indeed she did have issues with the school sending libelous transcripts to other schools, she could have sued. Judges have enough experience with the educational system to smell a rat in this transcript issue. But I don’t think it has crossed her mind that this is even a possibility.

  52. @ER

    Thank you! I was waiting for someone to point out that semester after semester of F’s would look suspicious. No school would let you begin taking the more advanced coursework without retaking the failed classes.

    The only time I’ve ever heard of anything permanent happening to a student even remotely like this was a legendary Computer Science major who hacked into the school computers and changed his grade. Unfortunately for him, he didn’t have access to the hard copies of his grades, and when the administrators in the Comp. Sci. department caught the discrepancy between the two, he got busted. He was promptly expelled and banned from every Cal State school for cheating/hacking. They did not need to change all his grades to F’s to make their point. Being expelled for a real reason that went on his school record did the trick.

    Ironically, he was able to get back into a Cal State school by changing his social security number. Of course, he had to start all over with his coursework….

    But the bottom line point is that changing a person’s past grades to F’s is not only unprofessional, it just isn’t normal practice for even extreme cases like hacking into the school computers and changing one’s grades. This is very fishy. Either they really are that unprofessional, or they lied to her so convincingly that she thought she had to start over completely. Did they send her fake transcripts to convince her she got F’s? Even if they only lied to her (and not to, say, another school wanting her transcripts), that has got to be *illegal*.

  53. Clockwork Angel wrote:

    But the bottom line point is that changing a person’s past grades to F’s is not only unprofessional, it just isn’t normal practice for even extreme cases like hacking into the school computers and changing one’s grades. This is very fishy. Either they really are that unprofessional, or they lied to her so convincingly that she thought she had to start over completely. Did they send her fake transcripts to convince her she got F’s? Even if they only lied to her (and not to, say, another school wanting her transcripts), that has got to be *illegal*.

    It is difficult to imagine that “Jane’s” parents willingly paid for another four years of school elsewhere, and “Jane” endured four additional years of school, based on a verbal threat. It seems her parents would have demanded a transcript before financing four additional years of school.

  54. > It is difficult to imagine that “Jane’s” parents willingly paid for another four years of school elsewhere, and “Jane” endured four additional years of school, based on a verbal threat. It seems her parents would have demanded a transcript before financing four additional years of school.

    I don’t think she said anything about who financed her education at which point. A wise parent would have insisted on a transcript. I know, and deal with enough parents to know that not everyone thinks of doing that. One top of that, because she was dealing with her trauma, it would not be unheard of for her to need to take lighter course loads. Healing from trauma takes legitimate time and energy.

    It also depends on the major and if another institution had a similar enough degree. I have a STEM degree that is extremely hard to transfer between schools because their accreditation applies to the curriculum as a whole, not individual courses. It is difficult to even take one core class at another accredited institution purely because that class may not line up the right way with your school. I know, I tried in one class and was denied pre-approval. I did a study abroad too that the school planned for, and encouraged – and I still had to submit a portfolio with all my work from that semester for approval as a legitimate transfer. I have heard of other majors having similar situations.

    A decent percentage of liberal arts classes SHOULD transfer. But if Jane transferred to another school for counseling, she may have had to individually prove that each class had covered the material that her new school required. The school she graduates from is essentially guaranteeing that she has met their curricula standards at graduation. The School’s reputation is on the line and their continuing accreditation for future students. Schools tend to be extremely picky about that. Considering the differences between Christian Counseling and Mainstream Counseling – it is possible that very few of her major credits may have transferred. I have also heard of students who transfer from a Bible based school to a State or other Private school having none of their Religious studies credits transfer, or even if the credits transfer, they transfer as electives and meanwhile the student doesn’t have a slew of basic courses that the new school requires.

    Transferring between your Junior and Senior year frequently involves having to take additional time to finish the degree. Add in the required Bible courses often having no equivalent, and the accreditation direct transfer of credits issue and you end up in a situation where yes, it could take a long time to graduate. But don’t worry, she probably graduated with close to double the required credits.

  55. @ Daisy:
    I can 100% assure you that if she were to show proof of her grades being changed to Fs, this would confirm her story to me to a great degree. However, I will not hold my breath. Was she raped? Maybe. I would have believed it if she hadn’t added so many…SO MANY, other unbelievable details to show how literally EVERYBODY had conspired against her in a maniacal, evil concord to humiliate and oppose her. It just wasn’t believable. You guys should worry that lifting up people like this are going to create a bad future environment for rape victims because as more of these stories get shown for what they are (lies), then a boy-that-cried-wolf scenario is going to take effect and true victims are going to be disbelieved. I will blame those who unquestioningly supported unbelievable claims that were destined to be disproven.

  56. Angela Hogan wrote:

    I will blame those who unquestioningly supported unbelievable claims that were destined to be disproven.

    What will you do if they are proven true? As for worrying about the environment for rape victims, I would suggest that you do not comment on posts like this. You are the one who is making it difficult. You have shown no empathy whatsoever. In fact, it is comments like yours that lead me to believe everything that Jane said. What a mean spirited comment!

  57. @ dee:

    Dee, I think this comment by Angela completely supports what you said: “Was she raped? Maybe.”

    That made it sound so casual. There was no emotion or empathy in her statement.

  58. @ ZechZav:

    The grade issue seems more important to this person than the rape and report to the police department. Really unbelievable.

  59. Bridget wrote:

    @ dee:
    Maybe Angela Hogan is not really Angela. It wouldn’t be the first time on this thread.

    In this case, I think Angela is who she says she is. I took a gander over on Facebook in case you are curious. 😉

  60. Angela Hogan wrote:

    You guys should worry that lifting up people like this are going to create a bad future environment for rape victims because as more of these stories get shown for what they are (lies), then a boy-that-cried-wolf scenario is going to take effect and true victims are going to be disbelieved. I will blame those who unquestioningly supported unbelievable claims that were destined to be disproven.

    You comment saw less than helpful. You may choose not to believe her but one thins is certain from your comment, you don’t know one dadblasted thing about caring for victims of rape. Every last victim of rape gets Jane’s story because they have seen maniacal cabals close ranks to protect their chosen insinuations and friends-friends who are just as sinful and institutions which honor institutional sin.

    I am leaving your comment posted so that everyone can see the nonsense Jane and others have to contend with. You are an unsympathetic individual who is far more concerned about protecting your BFFs than those who have been hurt by your BFFs. I hope they gave you a pat on your head for your *brave* comment.

  61. The biggest problem of this kind of theology, and the men/women that follows it, is that it accuses the victim of sin before even talking about the sin of the predator. And these kind of a accusation come NOT from the situation or evidence in these particular cases, but from the accuser’s preconceived notions and biases. In other words that accusers ALREADY made up his mind about how these “kind” of situation really is, BEFORE these events even happened. So when these incidents does happen, the accuser simply ignore the current situation and go right with his own assumptions and biases.

    After reading this story it is obvious that Rick Holland already made up his mind before the rape even happened. For example he assumed that she was drinking that night. And he assumed that she was wearing some kind of revealing clothing. However truth is she wasn’t even drinking, but someone slipped a date rape drug into her non-alcoholic beverage. And she wasn’t wearing any revealing clothing when this started. The rapist later put this on her to mock her to his friends.

    I will give an analogy.

    Let’s say you were walking home at night and a group of people came to rob you. They beat your face in and took your wallet. You of course went to the police to file a report and went to the hospital to get treatment.

    So are a faithful Christian. So that Sunday you made your way to church even with your injuries. But to your shock your pastor call you into his office and say you are under church discipline. He said you are ruining the live of those people that robbed you by filing a police report. He call this a hateful act and that you are failing to “love your neighbours as yourself”.

    And he said you are even more sinful than your robbers that night. Firstly why were you walking alone in the night to tempt those robbers to steal from you? Why did you made yourself such an easy target to tempt them to rob you? Secondly why were you wearing a Calvin Klein T-shirt to show them how wealthy you are? Thirdly why did you even carry your wallet around with so much money? It is your sinful behaviors that led to these robbers to “stumble” to sin. You were the evil temptation and that the robbers won’t have sinned if you didn’t walk alone at night, didn’t wear a Calvin Klein T-Shirt to show off your wealth, and didn’t carry around your big fat wallet. So you must retract your police report right now and repent of your “sins”. Else you will face church discipline and be excommunicated.

    In your shock you tried to defend yourself. Firstly you weren’t even wearing Calvin Klein t-shirt that night. You were wearing some cheap $10 t-shirt from some no name brand. Secondly your wallet was far from being big fat. It had $20, two credit cards and your driver’s licenses, that’s it. But each time your try to state your case your pastor just gets louder and screams at your for being non-submissive. And he told you that as of this very second you are no longer a member of this church. And if you ever step within 3 blocks of this church they will call the cops to arrest you. And that he will call your boss, who is also a member here, that you are a terrible sinner and that your boss should fire you from your job.

    How ridiculous does that sound??? But this is pretty much what these neo-Calvinists are doing.

  62. Angela Hogan wrote:

    @ Daisy:
    I can 100% assure you that if she were to show proof of her grades being changed to Fs, this would confirm her story to me to a great degree. However, I will not hold my breath. Was she raped? Maybe. I would have believed it if she hadn’t added so many…SO MANY, other unbelievable details to show how literally EVERYBODY had conspired against her in a maniacal, evil concord to humiliate and oppose her. It just wasn’t believable. You guys should worry that lifting up people like this are going to create a bad future environment for rape victims because as more of these stories get shown for what they are (lies), then a boy-that-cried-wolf scenario is going to take effect and true victims are going to be disbelieved. I will blame those who unquestioningly supported unbelievable claims that were destined to be disproven.

    You have to remember that Jane was only reporting what TMU TOLD her. They could very well have TOLD her that they would change all her grades to F’s. Did TMU actually change the grade or not? Hey stop right there. That wasn’t even part of Jane’s story. If you say Jane is lying, you have to prove that TMU didn’t SAY that they will change her grades into F’s. Whatever TMU actually change her grades or not is unrelated to if Jane was lying or not.

    And even if TMU did in fact change her grades into F’s, now this story break into light TMU can easily change the grades back to their original. So if you print out her transcript today I am pretty sure they will say all A’s once again. But what does that prove? Nothing.

    And even if Jane provide you with her original (before rape) transcript in A’s and then the after-transcript in F’s, you still won’t believe. You will just accuse Jane of fabricating that after-transcript.

    So what is the point of even providing you with the evidence? You won’t believe anyways.

    Also why are you so sure that Jane would have an after-transcript of all F’s? Would you print out a transcript after you have been raped and the TMU told you that they will change your grades all to F’s? Would this really a priority for you?

    And finally let me add that you are making a lot of accusation against Jane, while having zero love for her. Firstly Jane had to hide her true identity when she tell her story. So tell me then what can she possibly get from telling this lie, if this was a lie. There is nothing financial or frame to be gained for her here.

    Is she doing this just to hate on TMU? Why? How about I tell you that I am personally from an Alliance Church, would you then start hating Alliance Church? Would you suddenly start telling lies about all these rapes and sexual abuses inside Alliance Churches? No you won’t! You might attack the Alliance Church’s theology. You might even preach that the Alliance Church is the church of Satan, if you really hate it. But why in the world would you make up fake story of rape and sexual abuses inside Alliance Churches? You won’t! So why then are you accusing Jane of lying about this?

    Even if Jane was lying (which I highly doubt), you should have loved Jane and seek to understand why she was lying about it. And if you considered this, you will realize that the chance of her lying is slim to none.

  63. CHIPS wrote:

    And finally let me add that you are making a lot of accusation against Jane, while having zero love for her.

    Excellent point well made.

  64. Ken G wrote:

    No, her credibility is not based on the grades issue.
    The burden of proof is on TMC/TMU. They would have to produce copies of every official transcript of Jane’s grades they sent out and the names of the intended recipients. The intended recipients would each have to sign an affidavit attesting that the copies TMC/TMU has now produced are a facsimile of those they received years ago. This may be difficult or even impossible to accomplish due to record retention policies of the recipients.
    Assuming there was no grade changing, I would agree that this tactic was used for intimidation and control and Jane believed them.

    Ken,

    I appreciate your logic here.

    It’s funny that I’ve never considered the grades to be an important part of the story. If true, it’s really sad – insult to injury kind of thing – but I kind of got the feeling Jane’s account of her grades was more of an afterthought, like, “oh, and then this happened.” If they were really meant to be the crux of the matter, there probably would have been more thought in to how to prove this, or just not bring it up if there was no proof.

    There’s so much more to this “narrative” that is important to address than Jane’s grades. More importantly are the email’s Jane has retained, between her and the school, and others, that prove something was going on. We are not privy to those documents, and rightly we have no place to debate Jane’s credibility in the court of public opinion. That is for the authorities to decide, something the College should have let happen 11 years ago.

  65. Why is this all about grades? A woman has been raped. Horrible. How can something like this happen on a christian university? All those people are still sinners! They are not holier just because they go to church. Do I believe that story? Some parts, yes. I believe that Jane was raped, that happens everywhere. There is no safe place on earth. I wonder what the police had to say to the guy who raped her. Somehow I must have missed that point. I really hope that Jane finds what she needs and that the LORD will ease her pain and heal her.