“Jack Schapp had left his cell phone on the pulpit and a deacon had seen it on the pulpit and had picked it up to bring it back to him. From what we understand, the deacon then saw a text come through from a teenage girl in the church, and it was a picture of Jack Schaap and this girl making out.”Trisha Kee (link)
First Baptist Church – Hammond, Indiana
To our readers:
The Deebs are going silent for a few days. We will still be posting at TWW but will not discuss any issues affecting this blog at any site. Except for one blog on which I posted a reassuring note this afternoon, we will not be posting under our names or any pseudonyms at any blog dealing with certain issues. This started at 12 PM today.
We want to assure everyone that nothing is wrong with the two of us. We really promise. We are not doing this because we are being threatened. We are doing this because it will help us with some thoughts we have. Please let everyone know that we are doing fine. We may not respond to your gracious emails or return phone calls for a short period of time. Thank you for your incredibly warm well wishes. When we can explain all of this, we will write a blog post that should prove quite interesting.
Also, we want to thank a very brave, anonymous reader who trusted us enough to share some devastating, important and verifiable information. It has brought incredible clarity to the Deebs. It has also given us much comfort since we are trying to figure things out. We will keep in touch. We will never reveal any of the names you mentioned. If you can, offer sincere hugs and apologies from TWW. Bless you!!!!
Yep- it is cryptic but it is the best we can do for now. Life can sure get weird and confusing at times.
Psychopath? Predator?
in 2014, (Thank you alert reader for pointing this out,) Psychology Today posted Why Predators Are Attracted to Careers in the Clergy: Some further insight into a serious phenomenon by Joe Navarro. The Deebs strongly urge you read the entire post.
Navarro mentioned an article Which professions have the most psychopaths? written by Eric Barker at the beginning of his post. Readers know I visit Twitter every day. I post items of interest at @wartwatch but I am the one who most benefits from the tweets of others who I follow. Many are concerned about the same issues that we deal with here. This post attracted the attention by many for days on end.
Here is the list that Barker presented.The following list to the left posts the positions in which psycopaths dominate. To the right are the professions that attract the least psychopaths. This list was allegedly generated from the book, The Wisdom of Psychopaths: What Saints, Spies, and Serial Killers Can Teach Us About Success. It appears that clergy are #8 on the psycho side. I am also glad to see that the professions of my immediate family members are fall on the non-psycho side of this chart.
What about predators and the church?
In Navarro's article on predators and the church, he cautions the reader that the term psychopath gets bandied about too frequently. Instead he prefers the term "predator". You can read his article for the discussion on this. It is quite interesting, especially to me, since I have recently developed an interest in how to spot and define mental illness.
I will call these individuals predators, which encompasses all of the above noted disorders and pathologies.
I particularly appreciate the author's note that he is not our to attack churches, religion and clergy. He is seeking knowledge in the matter and the Deebs say "Hear, hear."
it is an analysis of why predators would choose to imbed themselves within a religious organization or seek to be part of the clergy—so that we can be more aware in order to protect our loved ones and ourselves
Here are some of his points in a nutshell. Once again, read the entire post since this list is not extensive.
- Organizations provide a convenient infrastructure from which a predator can prey on others
- Membership in a legitimate institution gives legitimacy to individuals, This leads us to be ore respectful and trusting.
- Organizations give predators ready and easy access to an identifiable pool of individuals or potential victims.
- Alliances are easy to make in an organization. These can serve to provide the predator information about exploitable weaknesses of others,
- Colleagues within an organization can serve to warn or protect the predator as a result of conspiratorial alliances
- Some organizations can be very financially rewarding for predators where they can exercise their anti-social traits (e.g., lack of conscience, indifference to others, bullying, cavalier attitudes, minimal concern for the welfare of employees, narcissism, sense of entitlement, placing profits over people
- Organizations often try to “handle” negative things in-house to avoid bad publicity, so they are reluctant to report even gross criminal misconduct on the part of the predators in their midst; preferring to transfer them, fire them, or have them leave quietly.
These are further observations that he and his colleagues have made in working with these individuals. This list is not complete so read the article. I am shocked at the insight he has into issues that we cover on this blog. You are going to love this list because it is so spot on. I cannot wait to hear your comments.
The Deebs have written about each and every one of these traits in actual situations. There is a line in an old Johnny Cash song "You've been reading my mail." Please share your experiences liberally. I have embedded Johnny's song at the end of this post. Warning: Dee is a major fan of Johnny Cash. All comments to the contrary will be viewed with a jaundiced eye. I will be keeping a list…
- Within a religious order, those potential victims are identified for the predator, who knows how often they will get together and where (Sunday worship service at 11:00 am, at the local chapel, for example)
- Some religious organizations require members to expose their faults, sins, or frailties in public. This is “manna from heaven” for predators
- Many religious organizations preach forgiveness, even for felonies. For predators this is truly a godsend. This means that if they get caught, they can ask for forgiveness and chances are it will be given.
- Because religious organizations preach brotherly love, even when someone has done horrific crimes, there will be those gullible enough to defend the predator or willing to look the other way.
- Another advantage for the predator in a religious organization is that if caught, he or she can very conveniently say it was “Satan's” fault.
- If the predator is in a position of authority within a religious organization, he or she can claim persecution by the “enemies” of the church or the organization. Any outside scrutiny subjecting the predator to the sanitizing rays of light is thus characterized as, “them,” the unbelievers “against us.” This often compels the group to “circle the wagons” in support of their leader
- If the predator becomes the head of a church or religious group, then he or she is immediately cloaked with power and authority (moral power) that mere corporations don’t have.
- Church goers respect their leaders and give them the benefit of the doubt.
- Predators soon realize that the ability to invoke a deity in their defense is a powerful card to hold that trumps all other arguments.
- No religion or sect screen for psychopathy as defined by Robert Hare that I am aware of.
- To be a predator is to overvalue yourself at the expense of others
- Predators know or soon learn that society tends to revere and not question religious authority.
- Parents may be more trusting of a religious leader than of the average person.
Society is beginning to fight back against churches like the ETERNAL LIFE CHRISTIAN CENTER in Somerset NJ. It appears to be an Assemblies of God church.
One of the reasons I am blogging about these issues today is that I watched a former church gleefully report to us and the congregation that the law exempted them from reporting questionable sexual behavior by this guy who is serving 13 years. Dee and Deb could not understand why the leaders were so pleased about this. It would seem to me that a church would go out of their way to protect their kids. Why were they happy that they didnt have to report sexualized behavior?
Navarro's article has given me a potential answer. We may have been dealing with more than one predator (as he defines it) in the church. Today, as I wrote this, it all became clear for the first time. We have often wondered how these men can sleep at night. Now we know it is possible but not proven that we could have been dealing with predators of another kind in the pulpit. (Note to lawyers: We are not saying the pastors were molesters. We are saying that they could have other issues as raised by the article quoted in this post.)
I am aware of a number of churches and denominations which have legally argued that Megan's Law should not have to apply to their church youth activities where most people know that predators target. One alert Twitter user passed this on to us. Church no refuge for sex offender: NJ State Supreme Court rules Megan’s Law applies to church youth groups
It appears to me that the simple story is this. A church, ETERNAL LIFE CHRISTIAN CENTER in Somerset, NJ knew they had a Megan's List offender at the church.The guy actually told them!!! Being imbued with wisdom from God, the leadership decided to let him work with kids anyway. I want to call them names but I am trying to be civil and I am barely hanging on. Guess what? He did what molesters do, even when allegedly *forgiven by God.* He assaulted two teen females in the church.
Now what did the godly™ leadership do when they we told by authorities that they were in violation of Megan's Law which states that
an excluded sex offender to hold a position, or otherwise participate, in a paid or unpaid capacity, in a youth serving organization.”
These godly™ men went to court to prove that Megan's Law doesn't apply to church youth groups! I can barely contain myself…The lower courts upheld the decision. However, the State Supreme Court finally stopped this nonsense
State prosecutors appealed, arguing that Megan’s Law also applied to church-affiliated groups, but an appellate panel upheld the decision in March 2016.
On Thursday, the Supreme Court reversed that decision, sending it back to the trial court and finding a “plain language” reading of Megan’s Law did not automatically exempt the church and the youth group’s status should be “a question entrusted to the jury.”
State Attorney General Christopher Porrino, whose office represented prosecutors in the case, said Thursday the ruling “ensures that children in religious youth-serving organizations will be afforded the same protections from sexual predators as children in secular youth-serving organizations.”
Given the Psychology Today article, I think cogent observations can be made by the readers.
Church members/fans are defending a pastor predator who is in jail. Are they delusional?
Let's end on this note. I am anticipating certain individuals on this blog to make rather interesting jokes involving the word *shaft* at the expense of the well deserving pastor. Please try to keep it clean.
i was taken aback that there is a Facebook page REMEMBERING OUR PREACHER DR. JACK SCHAAP. At the moment, you cannot see the comments but a person on Twitter (what do you call those who tweet?)sent me this.
Thankfully, No Longer Quivering at Patheos posted The Delusional Followers of Convicted Felon Jack Schaap in 2013. It was written by Bruce Gerencser who writes the blog The Way Forward.
For those of you who do not know who Jack Schaap is, here are some posts to fill you in.
FBC Hammond More Unified Than Ever After Schaap Debacle
Ousted Pastor Jack Schaap’s Misogynistic Flap
IFB Megapastor Jack Schaap Fired for ‘Improper Relationship’ with a Teen
Jack Schaap Sent to Prison
Bruce Gerencser postsed some letters that were written by Schaap to his victim. You should read them but be prepared.They are disgusting. Bruce has this to say about the supporters and followers of Schaap at the above Facebook page.
Remember, the people running and supporting the Jack Schaap Fan Page KNOW all of this, yet they continue to blindly worship the man. Maybe some of them are so inoculated with the Hyles/Schaap “if you didn’t see it it didn’t happen” virus that they are incapable of seeing Schaap as he really is…a convicted felon who had sex with a minor girl in his church, a girl he manipulated into having sex with him. Anyone with any sense of decency should be able to understand this.
There are many reason why predators flock to churches. People like those on the listed Facebook page is the reason why.
OK, Deb, I'll do it. You are falling out of your seat laughing, aren't you? Our readers can see the infamous, oft discussed, sermon at this link: Jack Schaap Gives the Creepiest Sermon You’ll Ever See, and Maybe the Second-Creepiest. At least it is posted at the Chicago Magazine which gives it the veneer of respectability. You can watch it over there. I refuse to post it here. Stop laughing…Remember, this was a sermon given in his IFB church which is supposed to be super dee duper conservative. Try to be discrete in your comments.
Pleaase note something: we always name names and post links to prove what we say. Always demand that from any site that you read.
Nuff said. Probably too much.
Beat the Devil by Johnny Cash with the lyrics "You've been reading my mail" This is pure poetry. Listen to the words.
First?
Generally speaking, the church has a lot to learn about character disordered and personality disordered folk. I had to grow out of some naivete on that number myself. Some people will choose not to change but will play the “forgiveness” game to manipulate others for their own ends. The Church needs to wake up!
@ Divorce Minister:
Whoop!!
Divorce Minister wrote:
I can only point at myself a few years ago for my naivety.
In my most recent experience, it seems that within churches, just as outside them, predators attract other predators.
For legal and safety reasons, I won’t get into too much detail, but my former pastor was and (from what I see, still is, ‘repentance’ pending?), a sexual predator. After we got out (having blinders removed is such a painful process), I began to learn more about the inner circle that I had been just on the edge of before my abrupt departure.
Okay, I’m going through the list of leaders in my mind and there are at least 4 other abusers/predators on that list. They form a tight-knit group that protect each other. And they lie with such sincerity that the followers believe the ‘we’re being persecuted for Christ’s sake’ garbage.
And in my experience, there is no breaking through that wall to get people to see. Sadly, it usually takes am experience that has personal effect to get the blind to see.
From the Navarro article, he states:
“…an analysis of why predators would choose to embed themselves within a religious organization or seek to be part of the clergy—so that we can be more aware in order to protect our loved ones and ourselves.”
Interesting that Navarro uses the term “embed” like a journalist that is embedded with a military unit. In other words, the predator has no business in the church except predatory business.
Excellent, thought-provoking post, Deebs. Appreciation, once again.
___
Blog Blur: “Doing A Bit Of Math, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
We are the church of Christ Jesus, AS we believe in Him, AS we come together to remember Christ Jesus and what He has done for us on the cross. An U.S. 501(c)3 religious incorporated organization is not and never can be the church of Jesus Christ.
huh?
Jesus’ church, it is ‘kind folk’ who believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ paying for their sins, –that is the church of Jesus Christ.
What?
A educational shingle and a state licensed 501(c)3 organizational document does not make you or your organization a church of Jesus Christ, i.e. automatically a part of Jesus church. –Just saying you are Jesus’ church does not make it so…
SKreeeeeeeeeeeeech!
An educational shingle, and a state license does not give you the right to declare yourself a church of Jesus Christ and to instantly demand ten percent of kind folks income to lucratively support this religion organization you have conveniently created.
Doing the will of Jesus’ Father does, which is hearing Jesus’ words, and believing in Him, and doing what He asks.
(See your bible for details…)
ATB
Sopy
😉
—
Wow, great resources within this post. I am old but realize I still have much to learn about predators, and their behavior, traits. Requiring the necessity of, eyes wide open, in regards to church structure.
As for , Schaap and his church, wow! Absolutely nutty . The all white blazers is a tell, so creepy, revealing. While I don’t believe I could ever be caught up in a church like that, it gives me pause that some people can.
Tomorrow is Sunday. I will be with church folk. While I want to be in the presence of the Lord, rejoicing in worship. I also know wolves could be there too, and it’s my responsibility to be on the look out for psychopath behavior.
In some ways it was easier to be ignorant of this garbage, being naive was somewhat an escape. No more is that a cover. My eyes are open to abuse wherever I may find myself.
Bless you Deebs for this blog. For the courage to address such a gross subject within the Church, and it’s myriad of organizations.
GMFS: 1 of 2
What’s instructive to me about this post, and the article to which it refers, is the point that these predators generally can’t, and don’t, operate alone. In effect, they build a team around themselves, even if many of the team members never grasp the real purpose of the team.
Different people have different appetites – for good or ill… which means there are different types of “prey” and, certainly, different kinds of predator.
The Tolkien character, Sauron, is entirely fictitious. He isn’t the devil, nor even a fantasy analog thereof, and to my knowledge he isn’t based on a specific individual (Tolkien didn’t generally write that way). But there are two very interesting things said about him in the novel that describe certain kinds of sociopath very well.
Firstly:
And later in the story:
There’s a video around, on FaceTube I think, of two luminaries from the reformed church culture discussing some of the earlier criticism of Driskle; one of them calls it “the revenge of the beta males”. Both are agreed that the reason people criticised Driskle’s behaviour was that they were little, low-status men who were jealous of Driskle’s power and wealth.
Men like this, who – like the non-fictional Pharisees – love money and seek out the chief seats and places of honour, are drawn to church culture because it’s the best way they’ve found to achieve status and eminence. And they, like the fictional Sauron, imagine that everyone else is like them.
GMFS: 2 of 2
Unfortunately, it works in reverse too. Just as there are incorrigible predators who imagine that everyone secretly craves money and power, there are also incorrigible sheep who mean well, or think they do, and refuse ever to believe that anyone might not mean well.
Many of us have been there. I, too, enabled a sociopath in a cult (who was not a sexual predator – not every sin is sexual) because for years I refused to believe that anybody might deliberately choose to lie.
__
Nullus Deus Faux Cans (TM) : “No Biblical Instructions Included Or Required?”
hmmm…
Darlene, many different kinds of fake people can join different kinds of fake U.S. 501(c)3 ‘christian’ organizations, for many different kind of reasons, –all week long.
huh?
(the proof is in the pudding?)
Anyone who says they are a christian, is now considered a bonafide ‘Christian’ today. No questions asked, (wouldn’t want to offend, right?) No biblical character or integrity is apparently required. (TM)
What?
No will of Jesus’ Father required?
bump.
501(c)3 fake christian organizations have became IMHO a free-for-all.
Sexual predators are apparently NOW part of the faux Christian 501(c)3 ‘landscape’ where the will of Jesus’ Father is apparently is no longer required…
For of this sort are they which creep into 501(c)3 churches, and from that ‘advantage point’ lead captive individuals, captive?
(tears)
Darlene, perhaps you (among many other unfortunate ones) are sadly searching, or profoundly lōōking in the [wrong] place to find Jesus’ true Church…
(sadface)
hum, hum, hum, Jésus m’amène à son côté …
(prayers)
ATB
Sòpy
__
Ref:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/2-timothy/passage/?q=2-timothy+3:1-5
http://www.biblestudytools.com/2-timothy/3.html
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jlh4BHGkubA
😉
—
This is a really interesting read & I always learn a lot from these posts, which is a blinking good thing considering the work I do. I’ll be thinking much further on all this but I have 2 requests:
Can you lovely people pray for me & my team as we seek to employ a new worker who will be out on the streets working with vulnerable young people at risk of CSE (Child Sexual Exploitation) & other forms of grooming & coercion. I always agonise over appointing workers, & would ask that God give me (& the other interviewers) a keener ‘nose’ for trouble & real wisdom as we meet & interview potential candidates. Pray for anyone with these issues to give themselves away somehow.
Can any of you also point me to examples of churches or organisations that are managing these issues with wisdom & firmness rather than the flamboyant naivety we sadly see everywhere?
Plus bring on the Johnny Cash.
@ Beakerj:
Praying for wisdom as your team makes this decision.
Some teachings that draw predator pastors:
1) The pastor stands in the place of God.
2) You must submit to me based on my office and not my character.
3) Legalistic theology that minimizes the grace of Jesus.
4) Legalistic covenants that place all power in the hands of the ruling religious.
5) Accountability structures placed upon the laity and not the rulers.
6) Elders and deacons are groomed and hand-picked by the lead pastor.
7) Church planting and replanting based upon the “vision” of the lead pastor.
8) Behavior control exercised from the pulpit in the areas of finance, food and drink, attendance, etc.
9) Church discipline useful as a means to squelch dissent.
10) Rigid membership policies. Nonmembers treated as second class citizens.
11) I am untouchable. Do not touch the Lord’s annointed.
12) Little personal interaction – just stand in the bully pulpit week after week.
What else?
JMO from my own personal experience – I think the military has an abnormal proportion of psychopaths, too. A bit frightening, since I am married to a retired-military-man-turned-preacher! Hmmmmm…….
Predators choose churches because, sadly, many within them are just gullible, prepared to think the best of everyone in their church-group. I’m english but live in Wales. I’ve noticed a couple of press reports where a welsh-speaking headteacher and a teacher were convicted, in different schools of sexual impropriety with pupils. Reports quoted local folk – also welsh-speakers – saying ‘I couldn’t believe it, I’ve lived in the same street as him for years’ or ‘I couldn’t believe it, I went to school with him’…I guess I’m saying that cultural factors make us reluctant to believe bad things of those within our clique and we don’t want to believe that anyone in it is disgracing the group because that reflects badly on us as christians – or us as first-language welsh speakers.
Just as celebrity preachers wouldn’t have a pulpit if they didn’t have an audience, sexual predators would not have a “sanctuary city” in church if members wouldn’t rally to their side. I don’t think this is what Jesus meant when He said “love your neighbor as yourself.” The average church member is just too trusting and has little to no discernment. The title of “pastor” doesn’t always mean a man is one.
The psychopath chart is interesting/disturbing. Everyone knows that folks in the media tend to lean this way (TV/Radio demons abound), but surgeons?! However, as I think about it, it certainly fits a local heart surgeon.
I heard this mentioned briefly on the local news this morning, so I googled it: It seems that Williamstown officials have finally realized that Ken Ham is nothing more than a financial predator.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2017/07/21/creationist-ken-ham-the-williamstown-safety-fee-is-so-unfair-to-me/?ref_widget=trending&ref_blog=friendlyatheist&ref_post=an-ok-school-district-must-stop-taking-kids-on-field-trips-to-a-christian-school
Mae wrote:
Wherever you are, predators better watch out! Awareness of the problem is key.
Donn Ketcham, surgeon.#5
It is not just pastors, it is politicians, my wife and I saw " Dunkirk" last night in The Woodland, North of Houston (good movie, people around me had some trouble with a non-London English accent, and I had to translate) Anyway, one of the previews was for Al Gore's movie on global warming. In it, Mr. Trump spoke about " American greatness" and after the week Trump had, there were a few applauses in the filled theatre.
This is not a poor community, but one of the wealthy ones in the Houston area. So, follow fallen ministers? Even sexual predators? This does not shock me.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Roy Hazelwood, another FBI behaviorist, (like Joe Navarro in the post), has researched and published a 5-step process that a psychopath uses to form a team:
1 – select the vulnerable, (seekers?) as targets
2 – seduce them, with ravishing attention, recognition, inclusion, gifts, etc.
3 – shape them to the psychopath’s agenda via approval and disapproval
4 – isolate them from their normally functioning community, to a new community
5 – devalue them finally as individuals because they are hooked into the psychopath’s work or world. Reinforce the fact they are now dependent puppets – “See, this is who you are”.
The opposite, or a functional way of people connecting, it seems, would be:
1 – meet over mutual interests
2 – share, a 2-way connection, without trickery but with honesty and agency
3 – learn from and about each other
4 – commune and connect as a part of the community at large, relationships intact
5 – bond and commit as fully intact individuals, free to be themselves, engage, and walk away at any time.
The chicago article the other day about hyles/schapp was so disturbing! That place is a mess. Can you even imagine? They listed something like 9 predators that came out of it.
I agree. Stupidity/lack of knowledge/protecting imagine will only take you so far. I think for people to willingly put convicted predators in charge of children takes something deeper than that. The only conclusion that makes sense is that all of these people are predators of some kind and its you scratch my back/i’ll scratch yours. Dangerous!
Normal people would have better sense and actually care about children, I think, enough to at least not do that.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
I think that is the ONLY thing that can explain some of this.
Dale Rudiger wrote:
A host of beliefs about men being above women and children contribute, I am quite convinced. Look at this church, and it was very patriarchal.
Max wrote:
Surgeons are sort of notorious in medical circles.
Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
I have no doubts whatsoever that Ham is sincere in his religious belief system. But I also think he’s no different from other high-dollar Protestant evangelical outfits who pay no taxes and who are also exempt from the financial transparency rules that non-religious non-profits must abide by.
It would appear that they want all the bennies of a modern first rate infrastructure, police, fire, clean water and sewage system, but none of the responsibility of paying their fair share.
Beakerj wrote:
Just want to thank you for your work on behalf of exploited children. May God grant you and your staff wisdom and endurance.
BTW- Not sure about the list. I have known some teachers who are psychopaths. Scary, scary people. How they kept their position has always been a mystery to many of us who are career schoolteachers. This of course was on the high school level and often was in either the math or English departments….
JYJames wrote:
Yes. This list is good.
We should keep our eyes open for vulnerable children in our midst. While they surely need our support, we should be weary of someone over interested.
K.D. wrote:
Way back when I was in JR high, there was a music teacher going after the girls. We all dreaded he’d ask us to go into the secluded instrument room. He’d pick certain girls over and over. He got away with it for years.
Re:
I’m not 100% sure of what all this pertains to, but, if it has anything to do with another, certain blog in question, and the veracity or identities of people posting there in a particular thread:
I’m pretty sure the owner of that blog has the ability, as the admin, to view IP numbers of posters, even the ones who may be posting as anonymous.
The anon numbers can be compared to the ones by people who have posted under their names, or who signed their names.
Most blogs require a person to use a verifiable e-mail address to post or to log in, too, so e-mail addresses might be available that way.
Just a small point that I don’t think was made before but a subset (narcissistic) predators may enter the church because they sincerely believe they are better, or holier,than others. It’s not all insincere calculation. These narcissistic psychopaths are as dangerous as the others.
The values that are underlying Western ministry culture and what it has often been reduced to (ministry merely equals repeatedly speaking in front of people and leading over people and being seen by others as “over” people) can’t certainly be helping to guard against this or discern when this is happening.
Our current ministry culture and values in the West largely enables all of this.
An interesting post. It covers material that I already know and that I have observed for sometime. While the term “psychopath” is not in the Bible, the term “selfish-ambition” is. God has been highlighting to me over the past couple of years how exceedingly deadly this sin is, and how wide-spread it is. There are virtually no famous Christian leaders we have heard of who do not have some of it active. There is a reason why CEO is on top of the list. A person who is humble and refuses to promote themselves go absolutely nowhere in society, but they are considered great in God’s Kingdom. It is no different in the Church then it is outside of it: to get ahead you need to be driven to work harder and longer than most everyone else.
What I am not saying is that every famous leader is a psychopath. Warren did a post once on a certain post once on a study done on the PCC of Canada. The pastors were asked questions and then rated on a scale. Thirty percent were rated as narcissistic. The bigger the church and the younger the minister, the higher the rating was. There is a range of severity of narcissism. You could say that psychopath are at the extreme end of this scale, where the conscience is broken and there is no longer any ability to empathize with others. They become totally reprobate and hence a true predator.
The basic problem with followers is one of idolatry. We functionally place flawed human beings at a higher position than Jesus. We look more to the leader to teach us than the Holy Spirit. We get sucked in by a lie, a fantasy, that the leader is not so flawed that he WILL mess everything up! We give the leader the credit instead of God. In these cases, the leader normally also strokes our pride to keep us coming. That pride cuts us off from being able to learn. This is how you get people that refuse to admit the obvious when their chosen leader falls. They are stuck in their pride. But this is an exception.
Most people when this happens, find themselves quickly going from one extreme to the other. There is a big temptation to now paint everything in the past black. People become hurt and embittered about the last denomination they belonged to. Some blame God Himself and simply walk away from the faith. Others shift into attack mode and enter a civil war waging in the Church against the particular group where they got wounded. This is not good because the wounded start wounding others and they do not realize what they are doing. Again, pride is the culprit and whenever we stop learning, stop considering that at least some of what we are doing is wrong, it takes a hold of us. The biggest tragedy I see is that some become obsessed in this civil war and then start picking up the same personality traits of those they rail against. They focus more on evil then good and the fruit of the Spirit shrink the more obsessed they become.
I am all for healing of these wounds. I am also for ending the civil war so that the wounded do not further wound others. Jesus is the great physician. He teaches us how to forgive, to let go of what we cannot control and love people. The enemy is not a church sub-group, it is the evil heart of men everywhere in every church group and the spiritual powers of darkness that are real, but invisible to us. These powers want us to fight with each other in self-destructive ways. They want us to misidentify the enemy so that we are ineffective in fighting their actual schemes. We must do more than just expose evil, we must love and dedicate ourselves to become both healers and peace-makers. Jesus did not say, “Blessed are the war-makers” after all.
@ emily honey:
Good observation – particularly appropriate in the evolution of the Evangelical community on a week to week basis.
Then, there are conferences, which are basically the same, top-down, lots of it, condensed into a weekend.
As well as books, telling-one-where-it-is-at; you can take the conference home and have the same MO in your own easy chair, someone talking at you via their publications.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
It couldn’t be that many of the men who had concerns were acting out of empathy, good reasoning and spiritual discernment skills and attuned emotional intelligence (and how those always go together/overlap beautifully somehow). You know, the real admirable masculine traits 🙂
Nope, just jealous!
I grew up in a church years ago where the adulterous senior pastor and the predator youth pastor covered up for each other.I was still too naive/young to know what was going on, and I never would have dreamed such things could go on! When I was older, and went back for a visit, I heard all the details from a former member and just went wow. I know that one of the perpetrators has died, and the other may have passed on, too.. It was my first real exposure to the fact that churches can attract very dangerous people. All that to say that, as I did my training to be a teacher, I’ve tried to be careful and aware when something seems off, and I’m a big proponent of best practices in my current place of worship, where they do take this stuff very seriously.
As far as idolizing leadership, I was one. I didn’t have such a great family life growing up, and the acceptance and encouragement in this particular congregation seemed incredible. I remember all the perks the church constantly gave the senior pastor, as well as the adulation. When I heard what had gone on, I was crushed, but I also became much wiser.
Sopwith, right on!
The worst predator we dealt with was not, to my knowledge, at all a sexual predator. But he took a good functioning SBC church and turned it into his kingdom, with his inner circle of yes men and his select group of groomed followers. Used social ostracism on the rest of us that didn’t bow and scrape. We had bigger services under him, and more people joined, so those of us in the out group were labeled as not caring about the lost.
But we had ceased being the church.
In the second case, also SBC, pastor had a history of being accused of sexual issues, was hired anyway, did the yes men and inner circle thing, and he and his wife left suddenly. As did a young woman in high musical leadership. Who knows? Better job? Repeat troubles? Innocent man accused? Predator?
Last time I visited it I would say it was a semi effect 501 (c)3 but not a church–not a church at all.
Pingback: Very Good Article from TWW (Why Predators Choose Churches) | 1st Feline Battalion
Mr. Jesperson wrote:
I agree, but because of how the idea of being a peacemaker was twisted to control in my former church, I would like to add…
Being a peacemaker and ‘keeping the peace’ are not the same thing. Many in abusive places are taught to “keep the peace at all costs because that is the work of the kingdom – blessed are the peacemakers who keep the peace.”
Making peace requires exposing and discussing the issues that are disrupting the peace, bringing parties together in true reconciliation – which requires forgiveness – which requires repentance.
Or, in non-christianese. Making peace requires a willing coming back together – which requires not holding things against eachother – which requires an acknowledgement of wrongoing and commitment to change that issue.
Peace at any cost is another way of saying appeasement, which on the small scale, is enabling. This helps no one.
linda wrote:
There are various species of predators who prey on the church … it’s such an easy target in its current condition … predators always look for the weakest and unsuspecting, which describes most SBC assemblies.
linda wrote:
The organized church has lost its spiritual brains.
Mr. Jesperson wrote:
Agreed. In every church I’ve been associated with, there have been more of them than us. The bad far outnumbers the good; that’s why the Bride of Christ is called the remnant. The average church person does not discern the spiritual battle and the demonic at work in their midst. The early church understood this; the 21st century church does not.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
Jeannette, your words struck home today. I sit here grieving over the activities of a church body which refuses to do what you wisely recommend. A sub-group has disrupted the peace and divided the flock. A young pastor stepped into the gap in an effort to bring reconciliation to the matter. The church power-brokers (leadership behind the scene) turned on him and forced his resignation so they could control the outcome … to have their will done, rather than God’s. Tomorrow, my son-in-law and pastor of that church stands in front of his congregation to resign. I helped him clean out his office today. Wartburgers, please pray for him and his young family in this transition.
As I mentioned in an upstream comment, there are various species of church predators. This is an example of a particularly poisonous one – it lies hidden in the grass, ready to strike at first opportunity. There are controlling spirits (sometimes in the pulpit, sometimes in the pew) who prey on the people of God – keep watch, stay alert.
@ Max:
Max, I’m so sorry for what your son-in-law is having to walk through. May God’s peace overtake you and him and your family. Coming face to face with evil in a place you expected brotherhood is never fun. 🙁
Jeannette Altes wrote:
“And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.” (Zech 13:6)
You’ve not been done until you’ve been done by a brother.
Max wrote:
praying…
@ Max:
Dante described at as the 9th ring of hell if I remember correctly. Betrayal from a trusted friend.
@ Max:
My mom told me when she was dying the church is now a mission field. But let’s be honest. A mission field of smoke and mirrors.
@ Max:
Lost its spiritual heart.
Max wrote:
Max, I am so sorry about this. We will pray.
Lydia wrote:
Lydia, your mother carried a burden. She knew a better day in SBC life, when folks loved each other as they ought. A few months ago, my son-in-law preached a sermon series at the church he is leaving tomorrow on “The Church That God Blesses” … the church that loves the Word, loves each other, loves to worship, and loves to pray. The “movers & shakers” turned a deaf ear to his instruction. To them, the church is a building and doing church is all about maneuvering yourself to control the building and its occupants. Your mother was right – the American church is a mission field; it is full of folks who don’t know the Lord Jesus.
Max wrote:
Complete with cannibals and headhunters. At least figurativey.
Matilda wrote:
Successful predators, successful serial killers, successful serial rapists, successful sociopaths are MASTERS of camouflaging what they really are. If not, they would have been exposed long ago. We only hear about the ones dumb enough to get caught.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
“One Hand Washes the Other…”
“A lie, repeated often enough, becomes the Truth.”
— Reichsminister Josef Goebbels
I grew up with an abuser. Probable sociopath, fit the description of NPD, definite manipulator and master liar, world champion at manipulative head games and gaslighting. Remember that Sweet Little Angel of a little girl from the original B&W The Bad Seed (minus the deus ex machina ending the Hays Office tacked on)? That was a documentary. Nobody is as sincere as a sociopath until the instant you have outlived your usefulness.
And master manipulators groom third parties — especially those who have authority — as well as their victims. This way the victim has NOWHERE to turn for help, because all those he/she could flee to are already in the abuser’s pocket. Sometimes the abuser will drop his Angel of Light mask to the victim and ONLY to the victim, because that makes it all the more Delicious — “Go ahead and squeal, Tattle-Tale! Nobody will EVER believe you! Because you’re just The Crazy Kid and I’m the Sweet Little Angel!” Every day, ten years, without letup.
Ah, yes. Polishing-the-Shaft Schaap, latest MoG to fall under the Mann Act for polishing his shaft in underage jail bait:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr0UpQXYkGs
Heir to the Iron Throne of PASTOR Jack Hyles, who tested his deacons’ loyalty by handing them a glass of “poison” and commanding them to drink. PASTOR Jack Hyles whose mistress had the church office next to PASTOR’s with a curtained archway instead of a door between (and whose house backed up against PASTOR’s with only a gate in between). Hyles whose two PASTOR sons & heirs both fell to scandal (including one son accused of fatal child abuse on his infant son). And Schaapf who married PASTOR’s only daughter to secure the Succession for himself.
I was going to see your Johnny Cash and raise you one Bob Dylan, but the only links I could find to Dylan’s “Man of Peace” were 1) covers by others, 2) mash-ups to video clips of Barack Obama and/or Donald Trump, or 3) conspiracy kook rant videos. I give up.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yep. I grew up with both parents showing NPD traits. One was just self absorbed and unable to see/empathize outside himself. The other was malicious. Family dubbed her ‘difficult,’ but no one ever saw the mask come off unless there were no witnesses. And she was a master triangulater – creating a web of distrust among her victims so they would not talk amongst eachother. Took me 45 years to break free of that web.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
One either has to get away or become like them. There are no other options.
Max
It’s difficult enough to respond appropriately in person when someone shares a prayer request in person, but it’s far more difficult when you’ve never met any of the people involved. Your story about your son in law hit me in that part of my heart where the rational part of me doesn’t even know how to translate the events into a prayer. I’ll be praying for sure, but I wish I could effectively tie together several loosely related thoughts that might be helpful as well. Thank you for the times you’ve encouraged me at times.
Sopwith wrote:
And then there are those who refuse to use the term, especially in reference to themselves, because Jesus’ name has been so dragged through the mud that the very term that used to describe his followers now has a terrible reek that no amount of whitewashing can dispel…
JYJames wrote:
Thank you for including this part.
Muff Potter wrote:
In retrospect, having seen more than one of his presentations, he comes off as a “one born every minute” huckster.
Lydia wrote:
And even when you get away, you want so bad to become like them. A Winner instead of a Loser. Cursing God that you were not born a Sociopath, because Sociopaths ALWAYS Win.
Victorious wrote:
So heart sorry….prayers for them.
refugee wrote:
Getting to feel like that sometimes.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
With me, it wasn’t my parents, but my younger brother (who could manipulate Mom & Dad like you wouldn’t believe). Like you, no one else ever saw the Angel of Light mask come off. No witnesses, of course.
The only weakness was he had to Maintain Respectability in public. Not only was he obsessed with manipulating others, he had to appear as the Angel of Light in public. Perhaps that’s their only weakness.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Had a sister like that. My mother knew it, acknowledged it, tried to protect me. My father was oblivious, she could do no wrong in his eyes….definitely favored, encouraged her behavior.
refugee wrote:
Have never listened to him, or read his books, been to his ark, etc. Know plenty of folks who have and in their opinion, he’s a modern day prophet.
Oops, sorry refugee, was responding about Ken Han. Wrong post.
Mae wrote:
Yup. Know a lot of folks who think that way. Overheard a conversation recently between someone who’d seen the “Ark” and been blown away, and someone else who was longing to go see it, who said something to the effect that they imagined that any atheist who walked through the “Ark” or the Creation Museum would instantly begin to question his or her assumptions.
That person had obviously never heard atheists making fun of the “Ark” and the Creation Museum. One of the terms I remember hearing was “cheesy”.
refugee wrote:
What’s really funny is that they seem to’ve divided the world into young-earth literalists, and atheists..!
Some friends of ours in Inverness go out in a small group in the town centre at weekends and pray for people to be healed (and for other things as well, of course, but it’s mainly healing they’re about). They’ve seen atheists healed of this or that, and those atheists have questioned their assumptions. But they’ve been presented with new evidence, not just claims or interpretations.
___
Sanctuary Bottom Feeders: “Coming Up for Air, Perhaps?”
“A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him.” -George Orwell
hmmm…
Dear Linda,
Hello!
The worst advertisement for the Christian religion has now become the extension of it’s seemly deficient adherents?
huh?
There is a great deal that could be said about the inter workings of biblical Christianity, i.e. the priesthood of the believer (for example) , but it is not easy to explain since many kind folk seem a bit reticent for various reasons to grasp spiritual truth. Accurate acute powers of discernment and discrimination are therefore apparently severely lacking. At a time when many Christians should be teaching others, they apparently still require teachers in an necessary education of God’s word themselves…
Linda, as Max so succinctly puts it, many of Our Lord’s people are extremely ill equipped or have never ‘even’ received the proper training to address, much less cope with the whiles and nefarious schemes of the Prince Of Darkness. Alas, for many his existence is shrouded in unfathomable mystery, if his existence is believed or acknowledged at all.
What?
Put them in an dark church sanctuary and feed them _____?
Spiritual Anorexia Nervosa ™ can kill?
Bump.
Modern evangelical church services have become a spectator sport?
As many evangelical churches today have extinguished much of the electrical illumination within the walls of their hallowed church sanctuary during the services, many kind young folks can no longer visually access their bibles during these services, –they are therefore left to the onscreen devices of the 501(c)3 church professional leadership, or upon their own personally hand held media devices. It is much the same with worship songs, which are limited in many places to projection systems during the services. Bibles and hymnbooks have become somewhat arcane and scarce, if not all together non-existent.
Once, a common bible translation and a common hymnbook populated the congregational services, weekly gatherings, and most importantly worship in the family home, –with all these things wonderfully knitting the congregation together. Yet, for many families, singles, and kind young folks, this experience today goes unexamined, unpronounced, unexpressed and sadfully inexperienced.
For many of this present generation, the Bible, unfortunately, has become a closed book during the week, and common hymns are simply largely unsung, or possibly unlearned, presumably a relegated relic thing of the distant past, with many over head songs comprised merely of a few shallow top-forty-ish fashioned verses chanted mantra like repetitively over and over in seemingly endless fashion (if folks sing at all) . Unfortunately for many young people today this is all they know. Indeed worth mentioning, the threshold of sanctuary audio discomfort at regular intervals have now reached or exceeding 120 decibels. (Hearing loss begins to occurs at this level.)
As for dedicated spiritual warfare training, it would appear in a general sense that a few sparsely sprinkled scriptures from the pulpit is found to be pastorally all-sufficient, the sermon now becoming the crowing weekly conversational achievement.
In essence, in many 501(c)3 religious organizations, sadly, kind young folks are simply candidates of devastatingly spiritual starvation.
In this apparently typical type of modern religious environment, how can anyone expect kind young folk to exhibit and express an extended measure of spiritual discernment?
In closing, to many of this present generation, ‘words’ are becoming as English author Eric Blair (nom de plume: George Orwell) perceptively predicted –an sharply inclining mental impediment. Many kind young folk are now expressing a burdensome exasperation with the amount of ‘words’ they are expected to express a basic comprehension thereof. As ‘electronic media device dependency’ (EMDD) grows, this precarious gap is statistically expected to significantly widen…
The most grossly obvious facts can be simply ignored when they are found unwelcome?
hmmm…
Could b.
(sadface)
Sopy
😉
—
Lea wrote:
Last year I was talking with a good friend, who is a surgeon, about sociopaths and he remarked that a higher than average percentage of surgeons are among that group.
Max wrote:
Praying for your son and his young family in the transition, Max. They’re fortunate to have you and your wife as extended family. You are one of the wise souls here at TWW. Bless you all.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Everybody: Listen to HUG.
Dale Rudiger wrote:
Leaders handle sexual abuse internally rather than reporting it to Law Enforcement.
I watched the referenced portion of the Jack Schaap sermon. For those who don’t want to watch the full hour and a half, listen to him read the scripture and then skip to 54 minutes in and listen for 15 minutes or so.
A few observations:
1. What’s up with the white coats? Looks like a medical convention.
2. I can’t believe he knew what he was doing.
3. The scariest part to me was seeing him yell and waive a knife around. I clearly perceive that he would do violence to people.
@ Todd Wilhelm:
Which means they bury it.
refugee wrote:
Maybe someone might “question” their beliefs, but I really doubt many would.
I think the place is just, singing to the choir. Sooner then later, the choir will have visited it and it will go belly up.
@ Mae:
Our last gov poured state economic development dollars into it or it would be dead already.
scott hendrixson wrote:
Scott, after I helped my son-in-law pack and load his library of books yesterday, I walked into the church sanctuary to pray. It was Saturday, no one there, lights were off, quiet. The burden was so heavy on me that I couldn’t form words to pray. I simply walked the isle from back to front and said “groanings that can’t be uttered.” I knew the Lord understood.
Thanks to all the Wartburgers who have been praying. As I write this, my son-in-law will resign his pastorate in a few hours. He’s done all he can do for a stiff-necked people who want their way and not His way. We are keeping our grandson while his father faces one of the toughest moments of his life. It shouldn’t be this way in church.
scott hendrixson wrote:
Scott, you’ve encouraged me this morning – knowing that you care enough to pray. Thank you.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
This, all of this. My mother tried in vain for years to divide my adult sister and I from each other with lies, but problem: when we were little kids, I was the only one who would physically throw his body in the way of her husband to keep him from beating up my little sister (two years apart). The bond of trust between my sister and me is thus unbreakable. My stepbrother and I are both estranged from them now and my sister has gone low contact to preserve her sanity – she is literally their last chance, but I already know they will waste it because they cannot change.
So sorry re your son-in-law, Max! Praying!!
@ refugee:
Welcome.
hoodaticus wrote:
Yesh, for me, she lied to me all the time I was growing up about her siblings, aunts & uncles, cousins…anyone she had let the mask slip with…so that I would not trust them. I was her primary source of narcissistic supply, so she isolated me as much as she could. At 45, I finally went no contact because she would not allow low contact. It was one of the most difficult and freeing things I’ve ever done. But it did cause problems with some of my family.
@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
Every politician, sports oligharch, etc, do the same with fancy arenas that the average citizen cannot even afford tickets to enjoy yet help pay for the arena and subsequent infrastructure needs that accompany such things. The big new arena here is already in financial trouble that taxpayers will have to bail out.
@ Lydia:
Argentinian artist Guillermo Kuitca canvases depict overhead diagrams of the seating in such arenas: “Tears fall and blood drips from these diagrams so that, personified, they are fraught with emotion. ‘Come thick night,’ Lady Macbeth’s furtive cry is written into the seating plan of a theatre, making the arena itself seem anguished.” http://bit.ly/2uNkvab It’s: Access. Money. Eminence.
Given, the world functions in hierarchy. Jesus died to save us from this (“Love not the world nor the things of this world,” 1 John 2:15ff), so why does the church function this way, too?
Jeannette Altes wrote:
IIRC your former pastor/predator (predastor?) liked to teach about “obey your leaders” and leaders being “accountable” for their followers. But didn’t these leaders also have leaders (from churches in other cities) who were supposed to hold them accountable? Have they done anything at all? (Not that they have any real power).
Lydia wrote:
And won’t that just be a rotten testimony when it does. Sort of like PTL and it’s village years ago.
@ JYJames:
I have my theories. Barna wrote in Pagan C that Constantine turned the Pagan temples into churches. The concept of the “Orator” stayed along with benches facing the Orator on a dias..
It became traditional as a result of the state church move– as in most were illiterate and had to be taught.
From what I can gather from reading even secular sources, when the Gentiles became the majority of early church (Jerusalem was being persecuted) it was mostly small groups in homes.
I just don’t see the point of being a spectator to it anymore. That is just me.
@ Lydia:
Maybe it’s not just you.
Dave A A wrote:
Oh, he liked to talk about being ‘accountable’ to certain pastors in other towns. His church, though, is non-denominational and unaffiliated. Each time he is ‘caught’ by his wife, there is a big show of calling these people in to ‘counsel’ and ‘restore’him. But when a friend called these people to see what kind of actions they were taking, their response was. “We have no authority over him.” But they still come and having speaking engagements at his church.
Linn wrote:
Quite understandable you weren’t aware what was happening. I think many of us might have missed such things in our youth, or refused to believe the rumors.
Am glad it didn’t taint your walk with the Lord.
@ Mae:
It’s ridiculous. If any entertainment for a tourism draw cannot stand on its own then the gov should not subsidize it. If the citizens don’t want the added infrastructure cost then don’t allow it.
Even mega churches and large mosques increase infrastructure costs to citizens in the area and they don’t pay taxes to cover it.
Lots of rethinking needs to happen, imo.
@ Lydia:
True. And interesting.
Although with Guillermo Kuitca it was the seating chart with access controlled by money that he was depicting. My son took me to a Kuitca gallery exhibition and explained that he, my son, had just been to a political rally where masses overflowed the “cheap seats” but the hosts refused to open up the empty front area because no one had the $$$ for the tickets. $$$ bought access to the candidates.
Who has access in a church? (Not all churches, BTW, function like Kuitca’s drawings.)
@ JYJames:
Hee hee. I keep meeting more of us but proceed cautiously. I am invited to church quite a bit after being asked where I attend. I have decided to just admit I am a done and see what happens.
It cracks me up while being sad at the same time how people will then “sell” their church. They have no clue I have lots of experience with the Madison Ave type church marketing world.
It saddens me because they don’t “describe” Jesus with the same enthusiasm. Jesus Christ and an institution are not synonomous.
@ JYJames:
Lots of old mainline churches used to have the pew patron system. Saved seats –paid for in advance. 🙂
Jeannette Altes wrote:
In my part of the country, “non-denominational and unaffiliated” means a Calvary Chapel clone, Moses Model Pastor/Apostle/Prophet and all.
Two words: PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY.
Plus the Calvary Chapel shtick of being “independent and unaffiliated” when it’s to their advantage, and one lockstep “Body of Christ(TM)” when THAT’s to their advantage.
Disperse to defend, concentrate to attack.
@ Max:
Praying for your son and his family today, Max.
Lydia wrote:
Oh, man. Here come the desperate appeals for money because Satan is attacking.
I don’t think they have our mailing address anymore, thankfully.
@ Jeannette Altes:
I went no contact with my Sweet Little Angel of a brother some 15 years ago.
An additional complication was my stepbrother’s wife (who’s from a Middle Eastern culture where family kinship is far more important than here) kept pressuring me to keep contact because he was Family.
To this day I worry that despite safeguards in my estate planning, when I kick off Sweet Little Angel will come out of the woodwork and manipulate my stepbrother and wife to give him as much of my estate as he can grab. (After all, he’s Family.) And (as happened with my grandmother) if he can’t sweet-talk his way into it, he’ll call in attorneys (retained twenty chess moves ahead) and play The Poor Poor Victim of Greedy Relatives. (“If you weren’t being SO UNREASONABLE, I wouldn’t have to play Hardball like this.” — direct quote)
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
SEEM to?
It’s become THE Litmus Test of Proof of Salvation.
Lydia wrote:
I’ve been advocating a drastic overhaul of the non-profit rules for religious organizations for quite some time now here at TWW.
Lydia wrote:
I am a done in my heart. I still attend most Sundays in my loved ones’ new church for an “economic” reason — the emotional pain it causes me to go is less than the psychic pain it would cause them if I didn’t go. I don’t need them worrying about and praying for my salvation.
Which, come to think of it, is annoying as anything.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
When I was a True Believer, I thought the whole “tax the churches” thing was an attack, but now disillusioned and seeing what churches are being used for, I see a lot of good points in it.
@ refugee:
could you wear ear plugs and have a kindle on your lap, reading a well-written book of choice? a private island of sorts, in the midst of undesired hubbub.
(once, when spending several months in a 1-room dorm of 20 bunk beds inches apart, i created my private island with ear plugs, books, and incense)
you should skip the incense part.
@ Beakerj:
GRACE – Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment- is a wonderful organization headed by Boz Tchividjian and Church Protect is doing good work in this area.
@ refugee:
Or maybe what is annoying is having them fervently pray for my healing so that I can once again be “comfortable” going to a church.
But maybe it’s a good thing that I have woken up and don’t seem inclined to go back to sleep.
@ elastigirl:
Doing such a thing has been a temptation, I must say.
I have always been good at thinking my own thoughts and shutting out the externals, thankfully.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
“Every Pastor should also be submitted to either another Pastor above
Him in the Lord and or an Apostle or Prophet or Teacher.” — unnamed predastor
The most prominent fellow “above” the unnamed predastor supposedly was once transported to paradise in an angelic cable car and came back to earth with his face glowing– just like Moses!
Of course, these Moses/Apostle/Prophets couldn’t care less about how the predastor lives, so long as they can stop by for a visit and a little sheep fleecing.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
Isn’t she (along with other family members) on the church payroll?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Here it tends to me ‘baptist but not officially and maybe also we’re cool with drinking/dancing business’
@ refugee:
“I have always been good at thinking my own thoughts and shutting out the externals, thankfully.”
+++++++++++++++++++
you’re way ahead of most people, I think.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I don’t know, they’re pretty serious about that women are beneath men business too! In fact, I think they’ll take an old earth person over an egalitarian!
Muff Potter wrote:
It isn’t just religious organizations that abuse non-profit status.
Dave A A wrote:
Yes, she is. Daughter is youth pastor, wife is administrator, sister-in-law and her dad are on the board…
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Lea wrote:
This one is Word of Faith.
@ refugee:
“Or maybe what is annoying is having them fervently pray for my healing so that I can once again be “comfortable” going to a church.”
++++++++++++++
entirely annoying. nothing like being the object of praying that you take steps backward.
(or is it the subject?)
@ Lea:
Muff Potter wrote: “I’ve been advocating a drastic overhaul of the non-profit rules for religious organizations for quite some time now here at TWW.”
Leah wrote: “It isn’t just religious organizations that abuse non-profit status.”
+++++++++++++++++++
i’m sure that’s true. what bugs the ship out of me is the duplicity on the part of the religious organizations. they have to compromise what they stand for in order to maintain their non-profit status. self-entitlement and willful ignorance are the spoonfuls of sugar that make it go down with ease.
too much compromise for me.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
HUG, don’t take my legal advice, but I’ve heard that in a case like this it could be prudent to leave your brother something in the will, if only a dollar. If you don’t mention him at all he might appeal it, saying it was an oversight, that of course his darling brother meant to leave him something.
@ Ted:
[Side note: BTW – “From Offshore: The world looks different out here.” is nice.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
[Side note: HUG, what is the point of a unicorn without a head? Enigma, begs the ???.]
@ Ted:
Leave him a dollar and his chess set.
Lydia wrote:
Totally agree. That includes base ball parks, stadiums and so on. They should pony up the costs with private revenue. Tax payers should not be subsidising these venues.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Some folks really freak out if you confess you don’t necessarily believe in a young earth creation. I’ve stayed fairly quiet about my non belief, in some circles, because I don’t want to put up with the flack I’d receive.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
That’s what you call a dynasty! Sick.
Mae wrote:
I honestly thought this was only believed by some tiny, super fundamentalists and would tell people so, because it usually seemed just a way to discredit christians. And then I found out it’s a bit more widespread than I had realized.
Interesting and thought provoking post. Just a minor point about the table listing the ranking of jobs by psychopathy. Looking at the original source, it is based on a web survey of people who chose to log and fill in the form. So there can be all sorts of biases for such a survey and the table, whilst fun to read, might not be that reliable. Also it does not provide the sample size for each group, which is a critical factor in interpreting such surveys. Another point, which is subtle, is that the jobs are ranked according to the degree of which psychopathy is detected in each group, not the number of people that can be labelled as being psychopaths according to a specific threshold. This is important because nobody is actually identified clinically as psychopaths in the study, although of course there may be people who are. I mention this because I have my own biases. The surgeons I work with (neurosurgeons) seem caring and empathic people (I am not a doctor nor a surgeon).
Perhaps one cannot generalise? For example, what sort of clergy are the ones who sit at computers filling psychopathy scales? The ones I know and have experienced both are not sociopathic and also unlikely to be wanting to go on line and fill in such a survey, admittedly another biased sample, I know. The survey is in an interesting book by Keith Dutton, who is doing post-doctoral research at Oxford University and is also a popular writer. I think this particular study has not been published as research.
Mae wrote:
You know you’re doin’ somethin’ right when you get 88 mm flak-bursts from both sides. I’m not particularly liked by fundamentalists or science jocks.
Muff Potter wrote:
Stuck in the middle lol…..yup, I am fodder for both too.
The article by Navarro is a good read. One thing to mention is that the association between psychopathy and sexual offending is thought to vary according to type of sexual offences. For child sexual offences, the level is lowest. I mention this because an implication might be that child sexual offenders, might not be detectable through their psychopathic tendencies. In short, there are non-psychopathic sex offenders and, of course, there are psychopathy clergy who are not sex offenders. Perhaps this is why Navarro is guarded about using ‘psychopathic’ as a label.
@ Mr. Jesperson:
Good summary!
@ elastigirl:
Yes, when you do it with religious lipstick ……..
@ refugee:
Not exactly a win/win, huh?
@ Divorce Minister:
100% true. I’ve found that too.
HUG –
Nostalgia for you.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1605615856137226&substory_index=0&id=201863966512429
Mae wrote:
Well, there are several things I’m big on:
I believe in a ~13-billion-year-old universe and a ~4.5-billion-year-old-earth;
… young earthism isn’t quite the shibboleth in the UK that it seems to be in the states, but I’ve two more:
I support gay marriage, and
I support (in principle) assisted suicide, at least until the church finds the faith to heal those with full cognition and in unbearable and incurable suffering.
Oh, and I believe “the sufficiency of scripture” is laughable nonsense – laughable because it’s unbiblical..!!!
So, obviously, there are people who don’t think I’m “saved”. It doesn’t bother me, directly at least, because I don’t pray to the same God as they do. Moreover, my God is incomparably greater and more worthy of worship than theirs; his ultimate act of self-disclosure was his very Self, in human form, and not a book – compiled by a committee whose authority many of them don’t accept anyway. But I don’t need them to go to hell so I can go to heaven.
refugee wrote:
The whole thing looks like a religious cheesefest of the highest order & is an absolute laughing stock amongst atheists, at least one has already done a photo tour & uploaded it. I can’t think of much less likely to prompt me into belief myself. I think the only people liable to be swayed by that thing are those absolutely brainwashed into that kind of christian culture already, which comes over as a haven for simpletons. I know that’s mean, but it makes christians an absolute laughing stock – & even worse, it looks like a huge financial scam too.
elastigirl wrote:
No, it just comes of being a daydreamer from my earliest years. Drove my parents and teachers up the wall, though.
@ refugee:
Oops, was replying to the “ahead of other people” comment.
@ Peter:
Peter, thanks for the good food for thought.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
It looks like we’re both roughly equally “heretical” (I might be “heretical” in other areas too, but this isn’t a contest and that’s beside the point).
What’s possibly more interesting is that those differences from garden variety standard issue conservative evangelical belief aren’t actually contrary to the ancient creeds, which are the actual standard by which heresies are judged. Not that the mention of that fact would keep most evangelicals from calling us heretics anyway…
@ Max:
I was wondering how it went but really how can it go? I just hope a huge burden has been lifted and they have another source of income.
My big message to young people is don’t rely on the church for your income if you have a conscious. I met a woman recently who is an accountant for a mega. She cannot stand the environment but at her age, 61 and single, can’t find another job that is parallel in pay/benefits–so is stuck.
Mr. Jesperson wrote:
Yes, because a human being (except Jesus) is approached and engaged completely differently than God: (i.e., Elijah in 1 Kings 19:11-13; Moses in Exodus 3:1-15; the political Herodians, the Levitical Law-focused Sadducees, & the traditionalist Pharisees in Matthew 22:15-46; Peter in John 21:17, etc.).
Josh wrote:
High five!
and added:
Oh. Just when I was having fun…
We’re certainly agreed on the significance of the ancient creeds. Which came from basically the same squad as compiled the Bible (admittedly, it depends which bible). What I love about them is how short they are. And even then, they’re longer than the letter the Jerusalem church wrote to the new gentile believers.
Following that tangent, it’s fascinating to note the handful of things the Acts church felt were essential: abstaining from sexual immorality, meat sacrificed to idols, strangled meat, and blood. Nowadays, we’ve chucked out all but one of those. How different the gospel would be if we’d kept a different one!
@ Nick Bulbeck:
I don’t have a list of where I disagree with the more popular ( at least in USA ) tangents of beliefs. However, I just can’t swallow, young earth creation.
I am also somewhat sympathetic to releasing the terminally ill of their suffering. Modern medicine, with all its life saving wonders, has also brought on man’s inability to die quickly, or in dignity. We allowed the MDs to give my 98 year old mom, morphine , which did diminish her ability to breath, but eased her physical suffering. There are those who would say we assisted her demise.
I can’t support same sex marriage. I feel sympathetic but not ready to let go of prohibitions.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
@ Lydia:
It’s not a lot of folks, but it’s definitely not just you.
Mae wrote:
If they are accusing you of doing something you should not have done, then those people need to think about suffering with 24/7 breathlessness and terminal pain. We recently lost a friend to lung cancer, and morphine is a blessing from God, in my non-medical opinion. Some people make me want to say very bad words which Ivory soap cannot remedy.
Gram3 wrote:
Yes, bad words come to mind. SIL, said it was deliberately killing someone to give morphine.
She had breathing issues, it was awful to watch. The morphine calmed everything down. My daughter sat with her for hours, singing hymns, etc. We still gave her fluids by mouth. She died with us all around her.
I am at peace and pray she knew we were for her, doing what was medically right and kind.
@ Mae:
It sounds like you are at peace with her care, but if you have any lingering doubts, please know that most hospice nurses and physicians trained in palliative care would have absolutely recommended giving the morphine for comfort in that situation.
@ Mae:
Posted my comment too soon.
I mean that most professionals would consider that to be good palliative care in that situation and would not consider it to be assisted suicide.
@ Caroline:
Thank you. Most of the time I do believe we did what was right.
Occasionally, I feel a little guilty because I was tired of her being sick and incapacitated. It was hard, she’d been slipping in health for several months….in a nursing home. Sad end to life in some ways because she’d been a very vibrant women well into her nineties.
Mae wrote:
I am ok with these type of hospice interventions that do two things. I am much more leery of more direct measures.
Mae wrote:
I sincerely hope that SIL has executed an advanced directive that specifies that no morphine shall be administered to her or anything else which might hasten her natural death. I suppose she thinks that Jesus wants her to suffer. What an awful god she must worship.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I love this statement! It sums up a lot of my difficulties with church these last few years. I share some of your heresies, but not your way of stating things so perfectly.
@Headless Unicorn Guy
In addition to leaving g your brother a dollar, you can include a paragraph stating that you are leaving him that and only that. A friend (RIP) included such verbiage to exclude his hopelessly addicted, criminal son from taking anything from the estate, financial or physical. My friend had very little money but owned a few art pieces of value.
Good luck. My mom’s family of origin was torn apart by a triangulating, remorseless woman. The only upside was that it taught us early to be wary of anyone who approached in a too-friendly manner and wanted to clue us in on “a few people you’ll want to watch out for.” All while smiling, smiling.
Lea wrote:
I agree. It’s a difficult issue.
Gram3 wrote:
I don’t know….she’s a nurse too. Unfortunately, it seems some folks believe, respecting life, means suffering is a secondary concern. As if intervention is not respecting God’s power over life and death.
My mother had maybe a few more days to live, but in misery. Who wants to watch their mother choking, gagging for breath?
Lea wrote:
Yes, young earth insistence has spread to even moderate thinking churches. I would guess my own church is about split down the middle. Thankfully,leadership has not espoused any insistence in believing that way. Hoping that position lasts.
@ Mae
Mae,
I can certainly feel your pain and ambivalence. When my Mom was dying she was in so much pain and distress. My stepfather , brother and myself stormed the doctors office and demanded he do something. He said he didn’t want my Mom to become addicted.. we raised a fuss right there in the waiting room full of patients .The doctor prescribed more morphine, my Mom had a last few peaceful days before she passed away. I never felt bad about it. Just wish we had raised a fuss sooner.
Josh wrote:
I hold to the tenets of The Apostle’s Creed and particularly their supernatural components as non-negotiable axioms, and yet I’m still considered heretic and apostate by some ixtians because I refuse to sign onto a large portion of the other stuff, PSA (penal substitutionary atonement) being one of the big ones that I categorically reject.
Lydia wrote:
My son-in-law presented his resignation to the church at the end of this morning’s service. Today was his last day there. My son-in-law opted to take the high road to avoid a contentious business meeting and church vote on the issue. After being confronted by the church power brokers earlier this week, he saw little use in trying to challenge them (powerful controlling families who “own” the church). Evidently, this has happened several times before – they have a history of being a preacher-eater church. He was given a 1-month severance. Fortunately, he is a bi-vocational pastor, so he has additional income … but his overall income was essentially cut in half. He has a business degree + Masters in Theology from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. He’ll be alright after a transition, but a sad exit from a church he loved and had hoped to change. The oppression has been lifted, but he carries a burden for the Church within the church in that place. Their shepherd and covering is gone. (of course, they still have the Lord on their side)
Thank you, Lydia, for praying. We talk a lot about the mean-spirited New Calvinists taking over SBC churches. But there is another mean spirit on the throne in some traditional churches, as well. I have known few Southern Baptist deacons in my lifetime who actually met the qualifications for that office, who use that position for power rather than service to God’s people.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Borrowing that. Thank you!
Leslie wrote:
I’m gobsmacked that this still happens in this day and age.
Lydia wrote:
Good counsel.
By coincidence (?), I ran across the following earlier this week in a book I’m reading by A.W. Tozer:
“When, as sometimes happens, the members of a local church rise up and turn their pastor out for preaching the truth, they are still following a leader. Behind their act is sure to be found a carnal (and often well-to-do) deacon or elder (or member) who usurps the right to determine who the pastor shall be and what he shall say each Sunday. In such cases the pastor is unable to lead the flock. He merely works for the leader; a pitiful situation indeed.” (A.W. Tozer, The Responsibility of Leadership, God Tells the Man Who Cares)
My son-in-law came up against leadership behind the scene.
Max wrote:
Max – I agree with almost everything you say and the spirit of what you say here–I hope you know that. But I say this as a brother in Christ: Their shepherd and covering, if they have one at all, is Jesus, and no man can EVER, under any circumstances, be a “shepherd and covering” for them. That whole “covering” thing, that thing a lot of us learned in the 70s and 80s, it is not of the Lord, and you must absolutely disabuse yourself of any notions related to it. If your son-in-law ever thought of himself as a shederd and covering for a body of believers, then they were quite right to force his resignation, because he’d be part of the problem.
@ Law Prof:
Discovering Derek Prince after he passed, I have learned much from his teaching, via youtube. However, the covering deal? I disagree with this incredible servant of God and teacher. Also, the hierarchy of women under men? I also disagree with this, believing that scripture does not support 1) the shepherd covering deal, as well as 2) the women under men deal. IMHO – I am neither a theologian nor an apologist.
There is the administrative gift for people to be called to manage/run the church, hopefully working with those financially gifted, discernment gifted, etc. There is the shepherd or pastor gift, the teacher gift, as well as evangelists, apostles, and prophets, etc. 1 Cor. 12, Rom. 12, Eph. 4.
Thanks for all you share, Max, and God bless your SIL and family.
@ Max:
Sorry Max such a sad day for you and family. These conflicts hurt the heart.
Leslie wrote:
It’s a quagmire out there in the land of medicine. I am happy to read your mom died peacefully.
The opioid crisis has it’s other side too. Those who need pain relief are being denied. I recently came down with Shingles, located in the back of my head, neck, shoulder. Before the MDs figured out what was wrong, I’d gone to the ER in agony. I’m a 66 year old women, also have cancer but ER refused to give me any pain meds because of the opioid crisis. My husband had to intervene by insisting they look at my medical records, to see I’d never had a drug abuse habit. Finally, blessedly, I was given Morphine through an IV.
Crazy stuff out there.
Leslie wrote:
DEA and War on Drugs, you know.
Reefer Madness was produced and bankrolled by Christians. The biggest fanboy of the War on Drugs I’ve ever encountered (NOT Rush Limbaugh) was a Catholic who was going off the deep end. Is this a pattern? That Christians are THE big fanboys Amenning the War on Drugs? Culture War Without End, Amen?
Beakerj wrote:
It’s called Fanservice.
A particularly sleazy form of Fanservice,
Flattering the target audience that They Are Right.
Bridget wrote:
Though actually, I didn’t start going to San Diego Comic Con until around 1983, when they’d moved out of the El Cortez (which was sitting empty at the time) and were in the old Convention Center. (El Cortez was THE con hotel for most SF/Trek/Whatever cons in San Diego in the Seventies.)
Haven’t been to SDCC in over ten years, though. It just got too BIG. Current convention center expanding every year (and filling up every time — currently the convention center is a whole mile (1600m) long and packed to the gills). Every hotel in San Diego filling up for the duration, clear north to Mission Bay and south to the Mexican border.
Lydia wrote:
“OINK! OINK!”
JYJames wrote:
Does this mean I have to tell the story of how I got my handle again?
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I believe as you do, and I am in East Texas. You don’t know the flak I get.
Oh, and even worse, my ONLY child lives in Kunming, China and people really don’t get it. As he said, ” there are more business opportunities here than the states.”
And the cherry on top of the ice cream, he is engaged to marry a Chinese girl, I say girl, she has a MBA from a Macau university. Lovely girl. She came and met us and stayed here for 2 months with us.
We get this, ” what’s wrong, white wimmens not good enough for him?” That last statement from a local ” church lady.”
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I live a bit north and stay clear of the city. SDCC has spread off campus now. They close streets, have events at the baseball stadium a few blocks over, and have venues throughout the city. I actually thought you went a few years back and mentioned it here, but I could easily be mistaken. I just got a kick out of that advertisement and the pricing.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Nobody goes there anymore. It’s too crowded 😉
Law Prof wrote:
Agreed. I chose my words wrong; my son-in-law never uses those words to describe his ministry to others, nor thinks of himself that way. I did not intend to imply that he was “shepherding” in the sense of the heretical shepherding movement you referred to. He was simply a pastor to those who knew him as pastor – he loved the Church within the church and “covered” them with prayer as he served and interceded for them in a difficult place. Jesus, alone, is our Shepherd … we truly have no other on this earth. He was dismissed because he preached the Truth and refused to be controlled by unregenerate church members.
Tibetan Buddhism has experienced a number of analogous scandals, although the details differ (e.g. rather than appeals to God, Satan, external enemies, or forgiveness, one is more likely to hear talk of guru devotion, pure perception, etc.). One well-known situation concerns a lama called Sogyal Rinpoche (=Sogyal Lakar, “Rinpoche” being an honorific), author of “The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying,” who stands credibly accused of pressuring a number of disciples and their family members into having sex with him, laboring for him, and all the other usual perks of guru-dom. Complaints have been heard for about 20 years now, but recently a number of his closest aides have signed a letter conforming the worst. Here is that letter:
https://www.lionsroar.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Letter-to-Sogyal-Lakar-14-06-2017-.pdf
On the other side of the equation, the current Kalu Rinpoche (one of many young lamas who, as children, are identified as the reincarnation of some illustrious predecessor, and taken away to live in a monastery) famously posted a YouTube video complaining of the culture of abuse to which he was subjected:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5Ka3bEN1rs
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Love to hear it. Always enjoy your stories.
I have a bit off topic, but honest question. Is there an increase of mental illness in the church today? I just came back from a week of visiting with family, and had to put very strong boundaries my interactions with my niece, who has some kind of undiagnosed mental issue. She is very devout, but can’t admit the slightest wrong she ever does, and is seeing a Christian counselor who is reportedly making things worse. I also have a friend who continues to attend a church that’s attended by a former friend who has been stalking her and threatening her, but the friend says that God is drawing her to that church, even though there was a verbal altercation in the lobby and no contact orders are in place. I feel sad, but I severely limit my interactions with these people. Life is too short!
@ Max:
Unfortunately “shepherding” triggers a movement, a mindset.
In Ezekiel 34 the shepherds go awry and the Shepherd Messiah restores. From 1 Peter 5:2, “…shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness;” NASB.
Not a Biblical scholar, I don’t know if the translation of shepherd is of the same origin throughout the texts.
@ JYJames:
Derek Prince of “Pigs in the Parlour” fame?
If it the same man, two of my friends went off the deep end after reading his stuff in the 80s. They began to see demons and demonic influence everywhere. They wouldn’t even eat in Chinese restaurants because the decor made them think they were eating “food offered to idols” and one of them threw away her prized collection of ceramic figures (I won’t say what they were, but they were not pigs, just some beautifully portrayed common animal type) that she’d been collecting for decades, just because of this man’s teachings.
Gothard, with his “burn the evil Cabbage Patch dolls” followers, reminded me of my friends’ reactions to Prince’s teachings.
@ refugee:
On the other hand, I am not finding a book called “Pigs in the Parlour” by Prince. Perhaps they picked up that book on his recommendation, or it was the name of a tract they got from his ministries? The two are firmly linked in my mind, as my friends often used his name when explaining things, like why they would no longer be joining our weekly lunch out unless the group chose a “secular” restaurant.
Apologies if I have crossed some wires.
JYJames wrote:
JY, I understand and explained myself in response to Law Prof on this issue. I repeat, I simply and unfortunately used wrong words to describe the pastoral care to lead and feed a people. I know fully that “shepherding and covering” has a totally different connotation to folks who have been in and/or follow such cults and their movements. I’m an old guy who was never caught up in the shepherding movement and know now that those who were are sensitized to those words – the radar starts flashing and fireworks go off!
Max and his son-in-law are not weird – at least in this sense! Our family is hurting today; I really don’t want to defend myself to Wartburgers for no reason. I apologize for saying the wrong thing to describe the situation. Thanks to the Wartburgers who have been praying. Everything is going to be alright – the Shepherd will take care of my daughter’s young family – He covers them in love.
@ Max:
That sounds like quite an apt quote, Max. Still praying for your son and his family. I don’t know if it was just Hollywood, or if it was something Maria von Trapp actually said, but I’ve never forgotten the saying, “When God closes a door, he opens a window.”
Of course, it’s not in the bible (no more than “God helps him who helps himself” or “Cleanliness is next to godliness”) but it’s a hopeful saying.
K.D. wrote:
Wahl now, if she’s a talkin’ ’bout white wimmens like ‘er sef, I’d say they prolly ain’t good nuff fer ‘im. Tee hee!
Max wrote:
Yep. God has other plans for you sil and family. Patience. There is always a place somewhere for a knowledgable, Godly teacher/mentor/friend. Maybe in another church, maybe elsewhere.
Hey Warts – please say a little prayer that our puppy, Jack will be okay. I took him in to get him fixed this morning and when I called him to put him in the car, I discovered that he had been poked in the eye by something. Please pray that his eye is okay. He is an energetic 6 month old…… one of God’s young and glorious creations who deserves a healthy life with good vision!
Lydia wrote:
Yeah, whenever I start to feel restless I just read my “Jobcase” message feed… so many people in their 50s and 60s looking for work, and discouraged.
JYJames wrote:
Because the word has been hijacked by the control freaks.
@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
Tell Jack today than an ole guy named Max is praying for him. I felt like I got fixed and poked in the eye yesterday, myself.
@ Max:
Praying for you, Max. I have run afoul of semantics here myself a time or two. I kind of figure it’s par for the course, considering what many who comment here have been through. But that doesn’t mean it’s pleasant.
Anyhow, you and your loved ones were in my prayers this morning, and will continue to be. I’m glad your son is bi-vocational, but that doesn’t help the churning in the gut, I’m sure.
@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
Praying for Jack. My own “puppy” is lying on the floor beside me, chasing something in her dreams.
Max wrote:
Thanks, Max.
I’ve been ‘poked in the eye’ a few times, myself. So, I have a good idea how you feel. I’m kind of in a ‘waiting place’ myself right now. But, I can feel it in my bones – God has a different plan for you sil. He may be able to use what he has learned at that church for good.
refugee wrote:
Thanks ref.
When Wacko Jacko dreams, he make crazy sounds – like a police siren in slo-mo!
Oops, gotta go. Got green beans boiling and ready to jar up and can while I wait to hear from the vet.
refugee wrote:
Ah, yes. The Satanic Panic of the Eighties.
“THEY’RE HERE! THEY’RE THERE! THEY’RE EVERYWHERE! DEMONS! DEMONS! DEMONS! SHEEKA-BOOM-BAH! BAM!!!”
Now imagine being a gamer (pencil, paper, and funny dice) during this period. The gaming club I was in even used to screen noobs for “sheep in wolf’s clothing” by steering them through this one flaky DM who could fake being a cut-rate Aliester Crowley.
But the worst of the Satanic Panic stories came from Furry Fandom some years after the fact. Mark “Blackfox” Wallace, a furry artist of some renown in both Furry Fandom and the SCA primarily for his “Warthaven” comics. Even had one graphic novel — Vixen’s Keep — to his name when he died suddenly of an aortic aneurysm. Died intestate (no will or estate plan, especially for his intellectual property); everything went to an aunt who was described on the fannish grapevine as “a Christian”. She BURNED all his artwork she could get her hands on, all his life’s work, as SAY-TANN-IC, even having her lawyer send nastygrams to everyone she could trace as owning or possessing artwork of his to turn it over to her. Except for the print run of Vixen’s Keep and the Warthaven strips that survived in fanzines, HIS ENTIRE LIFE’S WORK WENT INTO THE INCINERATOR TO THE CRY OF “PRAISE THE LOOOOORD!” His Entire Artistic Output. And (to paraphrase Arya Stark at The Twins) “The Fandom Remembers”.
K.D. wrote:
Wow.
For some reason, I can hear the little ones at VBS singing at the top of their lungs,
Jesus loves the little children!
All the children in the world!
Red and yellow, black and white,
They are precious in his sight;
Jesus loves the little children of the world.
Guess she never learned that one in her church.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
P.S. You know who’s credited with starting the Satanic Panic? Mike Warnke. You know, the Christian Celebrity who claimed to have been a Satanic High Priest and who KNEW their Secret Plans? The same Mike Warnke who Cornerstone later exposed as a TOTAL FRAUD?
Thank you, Mike Warnke, you FRAUD.
refugee wrote:
There is a tremendous burden that comes with the ministry for pastors who truly desire to see church folks move from point A to point B into spiritual maturity and Christlikeness. Yes, my son-in-law is grieving today – illegitimate authority stripped him of his ministry for the time being. But he knows whom he serves and will move forward when his gut stops churning.
On a positive note, we kept our 3-year old grandson while his father dealt with things at church yesterday. He attempted to help me water the garden with a watering can that was too heavy for him. As he struggled to carry the can, he looked up at me and said “Papaw, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.” To which I shouted a hearty AMEN! From the mouths of babes …
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Yeah. There was a talented author in LOTR fandom who deleted all her stories after her pastor and loved ones convinced her LOTR was of the devil. She alienated all her fandom friends by her preachy “final message” to them.
When she came limping back to the fandom some time later, I don’t know if they ever took her back, as I was on the outs at the time, myself, after protesting child porn and getting a lot of flack for oppressing someone’s artistic talent. Yes, in LOTR fanfic. I withdrew from the main fandom at the point and sort of confined myself to a fanfic site that didn’t allow that sort of thing.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
But he was entertaining!
Do you suppose the whole “church as entertainment” thing can be laid at his doorstep, too?
It’s tempting, but no. Plenty more people through the ages have been doing that. Thinking of Mark Twain’s (I think it was) description of a revival, for example. And the Toronto blessing–was that the one that had people barking like dogs and rolling on the floor?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
No, but put up a link where JYJ and I can read it…I too have been wondering for a couple of years.
@ Max:
What a sweetie. That childlike faith… I remember when I was 3, I asked my parents why people always looked at the ground when they prayed, seeing as how God was up in heaven.
Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
I was young and now am old. I’ve learned a lot in my long journey. Even when we see a light at the end of the tunnel, it’s still hell in the hallway! The valley experiences are meant to prepare you for the days ahead. All things work together for good for those who love the Lord.
APOLOGIES TO MAX
I acted like a jerk responding to you yesterday. The last thing you needed to hear as you’re worried about your son-in-law and daughter as he resigns his job was anyone insinuating that he might be part of the problem. So sorry, I put a hatred for the doctrine of covering on a higher priority than the well being of you, a Christian who’s always been gracious on this forum. I acted just like the abusive church leaders who put their doctrines and systems ahead of people and Jesus. Becoming what I hate. Very, very sorry, Max, you didn’t deserve that, wishing you, your son-in-law and daughter and family all the best and Christ’s love. – Law Prof
refugee wrote:
Wait what??
Was it that anything Asian was not considered secular? That’s so so strange.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Tragic. Reminds me of the scene in that movie about Mozart, where his rival burned a bunch of Mozart’s works. I don’t know if it happened in real life or if it was just a movie thing, but to think of it happening in real life is… I can’t think of a word that’s bad enough.
Max wrote:
That’s the one that pushes my buttons, mostly because I keep hearing it solely in the creepiest of contexts.
Lea wrote:
Chinese restaurants often have pictures and figures of dragons on the walls. Dragons are demonic, in those teachings. Even pictures of dragons can oppress Christians who have read and been influenced by those teachings. And some Asian restaurants have pictures of Buddha, I think? So those would be considered idols, by those teachings. And little ceramic animals could have a demonic influence on a person, by those teachings.
It got really crazy, the more they got into it.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Oooh, for real? I remember that name somehow.
This lady from twitter just posted about this satanic panic stuff on her blog. My mom definitely bought into some of it (smurf means demon! Although to be fair the opening episode of that show is actually way creepy), and not other parts.
@ refugee:
I still don’t get how people are soooo snookered by these things.
Why would anyone believe satanic cults had invaded everywhere? Or that barking like a dog, or laughing like a hyena ( Pensecola outbreak ) is from the mouth of God?
I don’t think I am special in discerning the spirit but ready how can people not sense this stuff is crazy?
refugee wrote:
If by “that movie about Mozart” you mean Amadeus, remember that movie is told from the POV of Salieri, and Salieri is shown to be an Unreliable Narrator.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Ah. I can be something of an unreliable narrator, too, as I get older and my memory gets fuzzier… That was the movie. But it was decades ago when I saw it. I think it was actually a VHS video back when VHS was a recent phenomenon!
Lea wrote:
Yes, and in the context of Wartburger experiences, it was a bad word to use on my part. I committed the unpardonable sin. I have caused the comment thread to go off-track (Deebs, I apologize). While we were discussing these things, more predators probably chose careers in the clergy and their members will love them anyway.
@ Mae:
Why did hundreds follow Jim Jones to Guyana.
The problem for me is I believe there IS evil amongst us in various ways. But society tends to go one way or another to the extremes. Then the experts will diagnose many evil deeds as a mere mental disease we must tolerate.
It’s a mess.
Max wrote:
Oh Max, I think you’re down in the dumps, having a bad day. I understood you use of, ” covering”. None of us ever perfectly express our thoughts.
While we are at apologizing, I got off thread too.
Rest in God’s arms, it been an emotionally jarring time for you and family.
Hugs.
The origin of HUG’s nom de plume (or perhaps de guerre) aside, the post with its references to Navarro’s article made me think back to discussions I have seen on other posts – namely, why don’t (most) churches/denominations utilize psychological tests and profiling as a part of their pastor selection process? Other than it being cost prohibitive for smaller congregations.
While I can speculate on various reasons why that isn’t done, I do remember back when my wife and I were applying to work for the IMB as career missionaries. We had to go through a battery of psychological testing (which we passed, whatever that means), one of which was the MMPI. The results were read by a licensed psychologist (not a Biblical counselor) and forwarded to the IMB. Any aberration or abnormality would have required further testing and counseling, or it could have led to a cessation of the application process; at the time, the IMB was concerned about who they sent overseas. Granted, Jerry Rankin was president back then.
@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
I have been dreaming of my aunt’s farm green beans, lately. Just cannot recreate the experience from plant to plate and whatever made hers so good. Not to mention her heaping bowls of peeled and sliced garden tomatoes, chilled. we had no idea, as kids, how wonderful the food was then and there.
Lydia wrote:
It seems we have a nature which is susceptible, to following after leaders, of one type or another.
Am tired of bizarre behavior being classified as, a mental disorder. Yes, mental dis exist but agree “evil” is not
a disease. Stalin, Hitler, Ghangis Kahn, etc. we’re just evil personified. Evil doesn’t have to be inhabited in spectacular exhibits either. It creeps into our midst with the sole pedophile, the rapist and so on.
@ Mae:
Forgive the typos, ‘Fire’, misbehaving today.
@ Burwell:
Because of my background in Org Dev, I have little faith in psych assessments when it comes to clever sociopaths/narcissists. However, I bet they have good uses to detect other potential problems for people who are transitioning to other cultures.
Lydia wrote:
Yeah. And they’re probably in collusion with the Russians.
They need to be investigated.
Max wrote:
I wasn’t meaning that as a pile on, Max! I just meant to say I would rather hear about shepherds than coverings! Sorry if that didn’t come across. (iow, I wasn’t mad at you)
wish you and your family the best.
APOLOGIES TO MAX
I acted very insesitively responding to you yesterday. I was wrong. The last thing you needed to hear as you’re worried about your son-in-law and daughter as he resigns his job was anyone insinuating that he might be part of the problem. So sorry, I put a dislike for the doctrine of covering on a higher priority than the well being of you, a Christian who’s always been gracious on this forum. I acted just like the abusive church leaders who put their doctrines and systems ahead of people and Jesus. Very, very sorry, Max, you didn’t deserve that, wishing you, your son-in-law and daughter and family all the best and Christ’s love. – Law Prof
Max–know our prayers are with your family! We had a business meeting at church yesterday go awry as one of those “its my family’s little church” types ranted on and on, so I sympathize with ya brother.
But one thing makes my eyeballs twitch (besides astigmatism and rheumatism!) and that is the idea your son in law came to this church to love AND CHANGE them or it. Don’t get me wrong, they may need change and well I know it.
But in today’s world, far too many of us are being subjected to the likes of Thom Rainer moving the cheese, the pulpit, and the parking lot, tossing the hymnals and putting up the big screen TV’s, telling us the theology we grew up on is heretical and real Baptists now believe xyz or tulip.
I pray that next time your son in law accepts the call to a church, he’ll do what our young pastor (I’m no longer SBC) did when we called him. He sat down and wanted to know who we were, what our church was like, and what our church culture was. He was upfront that he needed time alone with God to see if he would be a good fit with the church we are rather than come in trying to change us. We loved him for it. And of course with that attitude, he has been able to bring quite a few changes that were truly needed without destroying the church we loved.
So I’m praying this be a blessing in the long run for your family, that he find a healthier church in which to serve, and that he drop the thought “I’m here to change this church” for “I’m here to serve THIS church, warts and all.”
Of course, up front, I really don’t believe in ordination and a paid pastorate anymore, so had some salsa to my comments, eat the good ones and toss the rest to the dogs, LOL.
Sopy–love your response post. We travelled recently and one church had only new age music, LDS songs, and pop songs. SBC church. Really the singing time was listening as nobody apparently knew the songs. Was a lot of hugging and swaying going on, one teen girl chewing on her mother’s ear downright erotically as they melded together and swayed to the beat, eyes closed. Preaching wasn’t scripture based but Maxwell and Wagner based. Made us want to throw up.
My whole family is about done with the orator idea anyway. But on the upside, yesterday our church decided to go back to frequent communion instead of the entertainment mode we did for years. Last year we went back to hymns but kept the new format.
Changes are a comin.
@ Muff Potter:
As long as ALL who have done deals with Russians are investigated. Equal justice. Not two tiered.
@ Lydia:
Agreed. I still say that you and I could argue politics like two Jews in Tel Aviv, common cause with shared ideals, but never in lockstep with all.
L’CHAIM !
@ Law Prof:
LP, your words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones. It’s been good fighting devils with you at TWW. Let’s get back to it.
I hope “fighting devils” doesn’t stir up any weird ministry memories for anyone … 🙂
refugee wrote:
I am convinced they believe black, white, brown, etc are okay as long as they stay in their seperate neighborhoods, nations…..I do not know what these people are going to do when they get the heaven….or maybe they don’t plan to go?
Max wrote:
Thanks so much for your forgiveness. God bless, and yes, back to it! : )
Wacko Jacko puppy is home and doing well. His eye injury was something akin to a black eye……….. and I got 15 pints of green beans canned!
@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
Tell Wacko Jacko to keep an eye out for rattlesnakes and copperheads when y’all are picking beans. Glad to hear his eye injury is no big deal – an answer to prayer.
Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
Yay! And awesome. 🙂
K.D. wrote:
Didn’t the lady express concern for the “chilerns”.
Definitely good news about Jack. Thanks for the prayers.
And…. drumroll, please: more good news on the canine front. We’ve been keeping this stray beagle that showed up at our house a week ago Saturday. I have made calls and posted flyers, but no one has called to claim the dog. I got a call about half an hour ago ……… a family about 5 miles away from us saw one of my fliers at Food Giant in Elkton. The dad called to ask about the dog – behavior, personality, age, size, etc. If no one claims him, and if we don’t want to keep him, this family wants him. So, one way or another, “Scratch” will have a good home.
@ Max:
Thanks, Max, I understood your explanation and we’ve been praying for your family. God bless all, upward and onward. Hopefully a promotion for your SIL is upcoming.
Regarding “shepherding”, after noting the dialogue here at TWW, I looked up the Biblical references, curious. In the NT, some are told to shepherd the sheep, albeit with integrity. So it is not a bad word. Not a mistake on your part.
(Unfortunately, some have misused that role, including in the Bible, OT in particular. But then any role can be misused – teachers, administration, etc. There are bad guys in every vocation, even in the church, it seems. This does, fortunately, make the good guys shine brighter.)
By the grace of God, may He bless abundantly.
@ Former CLC’er:
“honest question. Is there an increase of mental illness in the church today? ”
++++++++++++++++++++
well, i think religion in general tends to activate “conditions” if not disorders and full-blown illness.
in my relatively short lifetime, i’ve observed that christian culture defines aspects of “Christlike” with co-dependent behavior.
HOWEVER, in the last 20 or so years, christian culture has become totally crazy. Everything is so extreme. That’s the meaning of “Gospel-“. Extreme. (even the local church has “Extreme Camp”).
Things like kindness and honesty are boring now. Old news. Not good enough.
[really, because they don’t preserve power, preserve the exclusive Members Only Club, nor do they generate money.]
something New & Improved! was needed. So along comes CBMW, 9Marx, and all other opportunist people and groups. With all manner of talmud-like wired-tight instructions and legislation.
The new brand name is “Gospel-“. It’s the only brand that God likes.
And this psychological monopoly activates all manner of paranoia, neuroses, megalomania, worm-mania,….
elastigirl wrote:
Good point.
elastigirl wrote:
Add to your list of what is considered “ho-hum boring and not good enough”: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
Former CLC’er wrote:
Funny, my wife and I were discussing this very same question the other day. Sure does seem like it. Maybe all those vaccinations and too much engineered food is catching up. 🙂
elastigirl wrote:
People want meaning and security to life and will do or believe just about anything to have it. Couple that with fear of death and that you’re going to hell if you don’t believe a certain way, and voila!, you’ve got ignition for the ‘gospel’ rocket ship you’ve described with aplomb.
@ <a href="#comment-333082" title="Go to comment of this
Please don't accept Prince as an influence on your life. You don't need him.
@ JYJames:
Please be careful in reading Derek Prince. And not jus on the topics about which you already have misgivings.
Signed,
person who was once a member of a “Derek Prince-approved” church, aka cult
Here is one example of a predator:
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/the-on-going-defiance-of-charles-dotty-schmitt-trustees-read.html
First it was young men this pastor was harassing now there is an allegation of Charles Schmitt doing this to young boys.
@ numo:
Thanks. Received. God bless.
Former CLC’er wrote:
Maybe it is the spirit of the age, the local university has gone insane as has our state and federal government. Worldliness creeping into the church?
@ numo:
Thanks, numo, you were much more tactful and kind than I was. I’m afraid I posted a knee-jerk reaction in response to the name.
Glad you’re out of there.
kin wrote:
I wonder if the limelight draws a larger share?
(I mean, I remember in my growing-up years in a small town before television preachers and media. We had a few odd people, like the “old guy” that our parents and the other kids warned us to stay away from, and the scoutmaster who later moved away suddenly (and it wasn’t just that, but the adults’ headshaking and the conversations that stopped when children entered the room), and the pastor of my childhood church ran off with the organist (although only the first might be representative of mental illness, the second in retrospect appeared to be a predator, and the third was adultery).
Former CLC’er wrote:
I don’t know the answer but agree more mental something, seems to be prevalent. Maybe it’s because of drug use during pregnancy ( all kinds, including anti depressants) or just a sign of the times.
@ JYJames:
Indeed. Those things won’t draw market share.
kin wrote:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Funny you mention engineered food. My thought was engineered Christian living. Formulas and programs — products with names that all become Christian household words. Not unlike ‘velveeta’, & all its processed rubbery orange-yellow ‘goodness’.
Can’t be good for anyone. Artificial, synthetic. The production of it all creates jobs and brings in revenue. And people keep buying and consuming it.
Whatever happened to simply picking a spiritual apple off a tree and eating it for pleasure and sustenance? (No allusion to Eden intended)
Thersites wrote:
“Maybe it is the spirit of the age, the local university has gone insane as has our state and federal government. Worldliness creeping into the church?”
++++++++++++++++++++++
But what is worldliness?
I don’t think you’re using the word this way, but my experience is that ‘worldly’ is a convenient label a Christian applies to anything and anyone that threatens their self-image and their comfort zone.
@ Nathan Priddis:
Truth.
@ numo:
Yes.
Nathan Priddis wrote:
Well… his music wasn’t to my taste, but I wouldn’t go that far.
elastigirl wrote:
There was an article I saw just yesterday about how your nice church full of nice people wasn’t good enough. You have to do something DRAMATIC, I believe.
Everyday kindness isn’t dramatic.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
She wore a raspberry beret…the kind you find in a second hand store.
Elastigirl wrote:
Good point. “Artificial” is so accurate. No doubt, imo, that system is fueled much by people who are unstable, to some degree, mentally. Probably why predators are so capable of victimizing people, especially the youth. Stability in family life is basically non-existent.
My youngest is experiencing it first hand in the work-place where there is plenty of emotional/mental instability or double-mindedness, and a good work-ethic is super rare.
@ refugee:
Prince didn’t write that particular book, but you’re correct on the dragons… sigh. It’s not a pleasant memory for me, as someone tackled me verbally after hearing that my dad brought art home from E. Asia.
Lea wrote:
Zip Lines, Pole Dances, Motorcycles on stage, ANGELS and DEMONS making guest appearances, Celebrity Speakers, Youth Group-style Icebreakers, Raising the Dead, Punching out congregants on orders from Angels…
refugee wrote:
“But such is the lure of the limelight, how sweetly
It takes hold of the mind of its host;
And that foolish Pony did nothing to stop
The destruction of one who had needed her most…”
— Ponyphonic, “Lullaby for a Princess”
Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
We in the North, are anxiously awaiting our first tomatoes, to place upon white bread with mayo and fresh cucumbers!
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
“Raising the Dead”
++++++++++++++
i remember watching a video clip of Ed Young Jr. — church was silent, a coffin is ushered out onto the stage. By & by it slowly opens, and Ed Young Jr. slowly sits up. As I recall there was no reaction, all was still silent. He then sort of stumbles out of the coffin, sheepishly, trying to recover his kool. i think he expected a celebrity welcome in outrageous proportion. Seemed to go over like a dead lead balloon.
and i said to myself “ha!”.
elastigirl wrote:
Grinning Ed Young of Seven-day CHRISTIAN Sex Challenge fame?
elastigirl wrote:
Like a vampire??????
@ Lea:
i guess…?… some kind of rebirth, renewal theme? it was one of those dramatic things — a gimmick & stunt.
elastigirl wrote:
Were there wolves howling too?
“Children of the night…shut up.”
Lea wrote:
My favorite romantic comedy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGK9_3yYOrk
elastigirl wrote:
Which apparently fell completely flat.
Mae wrote:
Slap some bacon on it and I’ll be over! On the other hand, my wife thinks your tomato/cucumber sandwich sounds pretty good and will try one soon. We live in the Midwest; our garden tomatoes are coming at us fast and furious right now.
elastigirl wrote:
Church as entertainment has taken over America.
@ Max:
Maybe in another couple days, our veggies will be ready. I absolutely love white bread with mayo, tomatoes, or cakes, or both together. Major yum!
@ Mae:
** cukes **
@ Max:
Just had our first warm, homegrown tomato, with mayo and white bread for lunch today….sooo good.
Based on experiences with a clergyperson who I believe suffers from narcissistic personality disorder, the thing I find amazing is how members of the clergy can display textbook symptoms of personality disorders, and neither parishioners nor higher church officials can see them for what they are. And while they can make a good show of things, at the end of the day, clergy with personality disorders are inevitably toxic, to themselves, to their families, and to the churches they serve.