Ousted Pastor Jack Schaap’s Misogynistic Flap

"It'll be a cold day in hell before I get my theology from a woman."

Jack Schaap

http://www.photos-public-domain.com/2011/03/27/blue-crayon-drawn-male-gender-sign-or-symbol/

Blue Crayon Male Gender Symbol

Misogyny is alive and well in Christendom, and the Independent Fundamental Baptist pastors pound it into the heads and hearts of their congregants better than most.  Fortunately, my husband and I have never been exposed to this nonsense.  Our marriage is based on love and mutual respect, and we make it a priority to 'out-serve' one another.  Isn't that what Jesus modeled for us? 

As I have shared in a previous post, we will mark our silver wedding anniversary next year, and our marriage keeps getting better and better!  Truly, married couples either grow together or grow apart, as appears to have happened with Jack and Cindy Schaap.  Now that the truth has been revealed, I find it laughable that anyone would listen to this fundamentalist pastor who has failed so miserably in his marriage.  Do as I say, not as I do…

When my younger daughter was a sophomore in a Christian high school (which we absolutely loved!), she experienced this fundamentalist rhetoric from some of her male classmates during Bible class.  The students were discussing Adam and Eve and the FALL.  Suddenly, the guys ganged up on the girls during the class discussion and blamed them for our fallen state.  Here is what I wrote about that incident shortly after it happened.  We hadn't been blogging long, so most of our readers were not around way back then.

When I picked my younger daughter up from school on Friday, she came walking out with a single red rose!  It had a note attached.  I said, "Who gave you that beautiful flower?"  She explained that earlier in the week her Bible teacher was covering the fall of mankind in the Garden of Eden.  Suddenly, the guys in the class began berating the girls by saying that Adam fell into sin because of Eve!  Yes, it was all her fault!!!  By implication women alone are to blame for the depraved condition in which we find ourselves today.  The seven guys banded together and ridiculed the eight girls in the class.  The discussion got out of hand and turned ugly!

I love my daughter's Bible teacher!  My older daughter had him for two years, and my younger daughter has now had him for two years.  He is one of the most compassionate teachers at the school.  He loves his students so much!  At first I did not know why he allowed the discussion in his Bible class to escalate to a fevered pitch. In hindsight he was able to illicit unspoken thoughts from these high schoolers and in so doing an important lesson was learned by all.

In the aftermath, a rose was given to each girl in the class with a note attached.  The note stated the following:

Dear Ladies, The guys in the "man-cave" would like to give our sincerest apologies in concordance to the events which took place on the day before today. We hope you were not too hurt emotionally and we would like to inquire for unreserved clemency. On the contingency that we have impaired our companionships by any means, we ask that you provide the opportunity to mend that fractured relationship. Please accept this flower as a gesture of our sincerity. Your Friends, The Cave Men  

In case you are wondering why male (and perhaps even female) high school students (and adults) believe this way, you need look no further than Jack Schaap and his ilk.  They drill it into the heads of young, impressionable minds in order to control them.   Here is how it is done…

For those who may not be that familiar with Independent Fundamental Baptists, Dee wrote a series of posts about them, which I highly recommend.  Here they are:

Who Do independent Fundamental Baptists Say They Are?

The Independent Fundamental Baptist Church:  Jesus Wore Pants, Not a Dress!

Is the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church Any Different from the Southern Baptist Convention and Sovereign Grace Ministries?


We will continue to follow this debacle and weigh in on this very serious matter.  In the meantime, we encourage you to share your reactions to Jack Schaap's diatribe.

Lydia's Corner:  Genesis 13:5-15:21   Matthew 5:27-48   Psalm 6:1-10   Proverbs 1:29-33

 

Comments

Ousted Pastor Jack Schaap’s Misogynistic Flap — 247 Comments

  1. On the video clip: Ouch. Hurtful. Was that supposed to be a sermon?!

    I go to a church that has the strictest views possible about women (as far as American Christianity goes – no burkas). It is extremely patriarchal (Vision Forum style + headcoverings). My husband and I tire of the constant re-hashing of gender roles. BUT I’ve NEVER heard anything this mean said about women, with such scorn. I’m pretty sure my pastor would be disgusted by this diatribe. I have often heard him say that husbands need to be humble and receive advice from their wives – that what women have to say is a valuable gift to their husbands. That both the male and female perspective is needed since we tend to see things differently and neither perspective is inherently more righteous. However, when patriarchy is so heavily emphasized, that message seems to get lost in all the words. It is only since I have shed patriarchal thinking that I even remotely feel that I have anything valuable to offer my husband, let alone the church or the world.

    When women are made to feel that their contributions are not only useless, but harmful and dangerous, it hurts. A lot. I remember my first encounter with being hurt by this thinking, and it was years before I accepted patriarchy. I was on the worship team at my college Bible study. I was one of three guitar players, the other two were male. I considered them close friends. They would NOT let me play guitar without one of them playing as well, because they said that would be like I was leading worship and that would be wrong. I remember going to my dorm and crying, I was so hurt. I am very musical, I had grown up singing at my church, leading worship, being a piano accompanist, writing songs – I even gave a concert once for a church event. My gifts were ALWAYS appreciated by everyone. So to be told that my gift was not to be used unless a male was also playing, really hurt. I had just never encountered that thinking before. But I accepted it and a few years later ended up at a patriarchal church anyway, where I finally realized my error in thinking God would ever want me to lead worship… or anything at all. 🙁 Needless to say my musical skills are… not what they used to be. Not even close.

  2. And he’s leading a big church? I have never heard worse preaching – even without the rampant misogyny, the guys is a truly terrible preacher. There was no teaching in that clip whatsoever, it was just him stroking his own ego. How on earth do people sit in a church like that where there isn’t any content?

  3. Also, the whole ‘a woman caused all sin’ argument is so utterly stupid. Even if you agreed with the initial premise because Eve ate the fruit first, Adam still ate the fruit! So every attempt to blame women is null and void because man did so too. Anybody who tries to in seriousness use such an argument has an intelligence level slightly below that of Goldfish.

  4. This rant is just evil. The fact that people have believed his nonsense is frightening. It makes it so much harder to talk to people about God with this kind of stuff floating around.

  5. With his ‘blame Eve’ thinking, he probably thinks that girl he took advantage of is to blame for what he did.

  6. Listening to my wife’s advice has saved me much grief ( and considerable money ) over the years. Hooray for the wisdom of wives.

  7. If per chance Mr. Shaaap should have the misfortune to spend any time in a jail cell awaiting trial, I suggest we organize a relay of women to read scripture to him. Since he will be a “captive audience,” hopefully he can learn a thing or two from women about loving one another as Jesus has loved us.

  8. Jan, you have my deepest sympathies. I think this idea that leading worship can only be done by men is opinion, not theology. Didn’t Miriam lead the daughters of Israel in Exodus 15? True, it was a communal event, with Moses & the rest of the people singing a song to the Lord, but the Ex.15:20 suggests to me that Miriam’s action was spontaneous rather than being commanded. To be frank, a lot of churches would have problems if only men could lead the worship, as a lot of them depend on lady pianists. (Anyone else, feel free to pitch in and tell me if my exegesis is shaky!).

    Pam, goldfish are smarter than you think 🙂

    But discussing the video clip, it’s interesting to see how certain assumptions have slipped in. The Bible says that “ALL have sinned” – not just woman, not just man. Also “the word of God may be getting out” (as the pastor keeps saying), but is it getting out in such a way that people are hearing it, or is it being brought into disrepute? People may not have agreed with Billy Graham when he brought the word of God out, but they didn’t speak ill of it because of anything he’d done.

    Sophie also makes a good point. Some men always blame the woman for their own culpable behaviour.

    And I agree with Jimmy – hooray for the wisdom of wives!

  9. @ Kolya:

    Never underestimate the ability of people with an agenda to misread that Miriam story. My favorite was the gymnastics of an extremely strict Calvinist who wanted to prove that there was no support in the Bible for using musical instruments in New Testament worship (since instruments are supposedly part of the Old Covenant). Someone pointed out that Miriam used a tambourine while worshipping God, and that this happened before the giving of the Law at Mt. Sinai. This Calvinist, in all seriousness, replied that what Miriam did was not “public worship of God in the assembly,” but a “public victory celebration,” so it didn’t count (because, according to him, our entire pattern for New Testament worship MUST be derived ONLY from the typology of the elements of Temple worship).

  10. “According to him, our entire pattern for New Testament worship MUST be derived ONLY from the typology of the elements of Temple worship.”

    Hester – Relative Principal?

    I’m guessing he didn’t celebrate Christmas either? I know a lot of those.

  11. Jan, I’m so sorry to hear of what you went through on the worship team. I can relate a bit to your story. Through some unexpected circumstances, I landed up arranging music for my last (in more ways than one) church for a couple of years, though I was never called a worship leader. (They were strict complementarians.) I put so much effort, time and emotional exertion into running the music, and never was supported by the elders. Besides the pastor, none of them even greeted me or spoke to me, unless it was to present some complaint about the music. It was a constant struggle. While many people in the church appreciated the direction I was taking the music, I never was fully free in that role, because the pastor seemed to be hanging on until a man could replace me. At one point he wanted to appoint another musician as the worship leader – someone who wasn’t fit to lead – just because he was a man. And eventually, the pastor flew in his friend from another church for an interview for the paid position of music leader at the church. I first heard about this when I was introduced to the man as he was making preparations for his new job at the church.

    The point is not that I wanted to be paid for what I did, or that I needed personal validation and an official title. But I was consistenly undermined, unappreciated and taken advantage of in my leading the music…and nearly all of it stemmed from my being a woman.

    I’m sorry that those patriarchal men have tainted the precious gift of music for you. I hope that in time you could find your enjoyment of it again. May God restore music to you and drown out the clamour of their petty voices.

  12. It is much easier to take advantage of and treat with disdain those you think inferior. this preacher was only living out his beliefs concerning women (in his case, a teenager) so it was easy to treat his wife with contempt and use the teen girl for sexual gratification. It is a normal result of his beliefs concerning women.

  13. Pam

    I agree. It wasn’t preaching. Vile and pathetic, in content and form.

    Here’s a palate cleanser from one of my favourite shows, The West Wing. President Bartlet and his wife Abbey are discussing the morning’s homily, which he feels ‘lacked panache’. His riff on the power of preaching and the significance of Ephesians seems relevant 🙂 I’ve quoted some of the clip, but it’s worth watching in full (if only to replace the sound of the buffoon in the previous clip)…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVtCcacNUxQ

    ——–

    BARTLET
    This guy was a hack! He had a captive audience! And the way I know that is that I tried to tunnel out of there several times. He had an audience and he didn’t know what to do with it.

    ABBEY
    You want him to sing “Volare?”

    BARTLET
    Couldn’t have hurt. Words…

    ABBEY
    Oh, God, no.

    BARTLET
    Words, when spoken out loud for the sake of performance, are music. They
    have rhythm, and pitch, and timbre, and volume. These are the properties of music, and music has the ability to find us and move us, and lift us up in ways that literal meanings can’t. Do you see?

    ABBEY
    You are an oratorical snob.

    BARTLET
    Yes, I am. And God loves me for it.

    ABBEY
    You said he was sending you to hell.

    BARTLET
    For other stuff, not for this. You can’t just trod out Ephesians, which he
    blew, by the way, it has nothing with husbands and wives, it’s all of us. Saint Paul begins the passage: “Be subject to one another out of reverence to Christ.”

    “Be subject to one another.” In this day and age of 24-hour cable crap, devoted to feeding the voyeuristic gluttony of the American public, hooked on a bad soap opera that’s passing itself off as important, don’t you think you might be able to find some relevance in verse 21? How do end the cycle? Be subject to one another!

  14. The real question is why anyone would sit and listen to this guy much less actually pay him for such drivel. And we are talking a mega church of people who have supported him even before the scandal. That is the real scary part.

  15. Sadly some in his church would not see the crime he committed as a reason for him to be dismissed.

    How sad!

  16. This is so scary and sickening exactly as he had a captive audience as Anon 1 said so correctly. He really hates women and is incredibly abusive! My heart breaks for his wife and children and congregation living under such conditions of judgement and brainwashing. No humility whatsoever and without it no holiness. This made me so very sad. Thank you Jesus for being the champion of women and children..and exposing the TRUTH.

  17. JJ, your experience with the music must have been pretty hurtful too. It’s sad that when women use their gifts (if allowed at all), some men just grin and bear it, and can’t appreciate it. Or, like that “preacher” above, look at it with suspicion and disdain. It wasn’t that way at all at the church I grew up at. I miss it sometimes.

    Thank you for the encouragement towards enjoying music again. It is coming back to me. I’ve found myself naturally going to my piano or guitar lately when I need to think… or when I need a break from all the thinking I’ve been doing. 🙂 Just another one of the many effects I am seeing in my life of knowing God’s love for me again.

  18. Great comments everyone! The best way to combat this evil is to expose it. How those parishioners can sit and listen to that drivel is beyond me.

  19. @Mot

    Yesterday, there was a Facebook page entitled something about supporting Jack Schaap. It’s gone now, for “unknown reasons,” I’m sure.

    For everyone wondering why people would stay in churches like that (and there are many little IFB pope-doms scattered around the country), all I can think is that I wonder if it’s not related to why people stay in abusive relationships?

  20. Hm. So he’s just saying this because it’s what God says, huh? That’s the only motive in his heart?

    Well he betrays that when he says, at the end of a long diatribe, “I’m so glad I’m a man.”

    At that point you’re not talking about this stuff simply because God said it. You’re talking about it because it reminds you you’re with the in-crowd. When you’re saying something this stupid, it’s doubly important to not accidentally double-cross your own message, but apparently he can’t even avoid that for the space of a three-minute clip. Facepalm.

    This stuff slips in everywhere! Growing up, I went to a church that embraced complementarianism but was definitely “soft comp” if you know what I mean. Even in a soft comp environment, there was an instance where a bunch of youth group teens at Bible camp got into an argument, and the teen guys all ganged up and said that the teen girls had to obey them because the Bible said so. The worst part was, all the teen girls were saying “Man it makes me so mad, but they’re right! Technically the Bible would want us to obey them.”

    This was at a SOFT COMP church, and TEENAGERS were saying it. It makes me want to explode with rage just thinking about it. Is it any wonder that I refused to marry unless I was marrying an egalitarian?

  21. “Well he betrays that when he says, at the end of a long diatribe, “I’m so glad I’m a man.”

    Reminds me of the morning prayer from the Talmud traditional Jewish men say at the beginning of the daily morning prayers: “Blessed are you, Lord, our God, ruler the universe who has not created me a woman.”

  22. “Well he betrays that when he says, at the end of a long diatribe, “I’m so glad I’m a man.””

    Sad Observer, that was my thought when I got to that part of the clip. He’s showing what is in his heart here, and it’s not the same as what’s in the Bible. This is an inexcusable thing to say. It sounds like he’s not all that happy (secure?) about being a man, so he has to put women down and make them look stupid in order to feel better about it.

  23. Jan:

    You said:”“Well he betrays that when he says, at the end of a long diatribe, “I’m so glad I’m a man.””

    I’ll call him what he is a total idiot!!

  24. My favorite was the gymnastics of an extremely strict Calvinist who wanted to prove that there was no support in the Bible for using musical instruments in New Testament worship (since instruments are supposedly part of the Old Covenant). — Hester

    Putting him in complete agreement with Mohammed. (Who also Believed in the Sovereign Will of God…)

  25. HUG,

    I am always fascinated by your comparisons between fundamental Christianity and Islam. If you ever write a book about the similarities, I would love to read it.

  26. Watching this doesn't hurt my feelings a whole lot, probably because I'm male and I grew up with some level of exposure to this kind of stuff, so it's not entirely shocking. I just don't take these kind of people that seriously, but it really does make me wonder that so many people actually do. The thing is, hate is easy to sell. And fundamentalist Baptists do enjoy being blasted from the pulpit. I've heard many of them say that if their hind end isn't thoroughly masticated they don't feel like they've heard a sermon. It's almost like a form of spiritual masochism. The major problem is, though, that these people embrace this stuff from a deep level of conviction. It's not that they're belligerently trying to do psychological harm. It's worse: They actually believe this is right and helpful. I'm becoming more convinced every day that the sinfulness of man is beyond the ability of reason to overcome. Watch how they respond to the pastor's scandal. I  bet their membership is not even shaken.

  27. For those of you unfamiliar with FBC of Hammond and its associated college, Hyles-Anderson College (HAC), this is an amazing story that is emerging, and quite out of sync with their past precedents. In years past, if a relationship like the one Schaap is accused of having with a young girl had been discovered, the girl and her family would have been rewarded with cars, gifts, cash, etc., and the parents of the girl would have probably felt somewhat honored that their daughter had been chosen to receive this kind of attention from their beloved pastor. Everything would have been kept quiet. So, the fact that the leadership at FBC chose to remove Schaap from his position as pastor and report him to the authorities is truly amazing. (Don’t be surprised, however, if Schaap is simply moved from the church to the college where he will continue to have unfettered access to young girls.)

    FBC and HAC have a long history of this sort of activity. Do some basic internet research and you will quickly discover that HAC is associated with many similar cases of pastors involved with youth. For two generations, HAC produced tightly wound little clones of Jack Hyles (called “preacher boys”) who left Hammond inculcated with the leadership model that they were The Pastor, and as such, they were accountable to God and God alone. It was not uncommon for a HAC trained pastor to accept the pastorate of a local church on the condition that he answered to no one. In time, the leadership of the church (the deacons and staff) were hand-chosen men who were only accountable to The Pastor.

    From a church perspective, The Pastor was both beloved and feared. As the man of God and undershepherd of the church, The Pastor was not to be questioned. Congregations were taught “touch not the Lord’s anointed” (Ps. 105:15).

    The Pastor’s wife was a trophy wife. He probably acquired her during his four years at HAC. For her part, the young woman likely came to HAC with the singular hope of becoming the wife of a preacher boy. Her role as The Pastor’s wife was to sit on the front row of the church, look pretty, and be the parent to The Pastor’s children. From the pulpit, The Pastor spoke reverently and appreciatively of his wife, but in truth, her life was served in loneliness and isolation. The Pastor, after all, was called to a higher calling, which was to pastor his church, and his job (calling) came first.

    As stated, for two generations, HAC turned out this model of ministry. Without question, there are good pastors in the pulpit today who saw the error of this model and broke free from it and serve as godly, kind, caring pastors. But the public scandals that have surfaced and the multitude of hidden scandals that were covered up for decades truly make this place a Penn State type of institution. What is amazing is that with so many revelations over the years of pedophila and abuse, why would parents continue to entrust their children to this institution?

    To learn more about HAC/FBC and its history of abuse, simple do a google search on Hyles-Anderson College + abuse, Dr. Joe Combs, Dave Hyles, Jennie Nischik

  28. BTW – to peel off another layer of this onion, do some research into Jack Schaap’s teaching regarding the Christian’s relationship with Jesus Christ. Schaap believes this intimate relationship between Christ and his bride is the same thing as the sexual relationship between a man and his wife. Schaap views communion as the act of intercourse between Christ and the believer. He sexualizes NT passages that speak of abiding in Christ and that we are one in Christ. This is the man who leads of church of “15,000” and is one of the most “prominent mega pastors today.”

  29. Former Fundamentalist,

    Welcome to TWW!  I have to confess that I didn’t know much about FBC Hammond and Hyles-Anderson College but that is changing RAPIDLY!  There will be more posts forthcoming about the Schaap debacle.

  30. Former Fundamentalist,

    In my research over the last two days, I did come across Schaap’s wacko ideas about our relationship with Jesus Christ you have called attention to.  I plan to address this soon.  Absolutely incredible!

  31. I, too, don’t understand how people can listen to him. I personally can’t stand being yelled at. His only way of speaking is yelling. For me, listening to a yelling preacher automatically sets up a wall. Yet people are obviously eating it up with all of the accolades he receives from the audience.

    Not only is he berating women, but he’s berating the entire congregation. His comment of, “At least the word of God is going out. It’s more than any of you have ever done,” is just so inappropriate.

  32. Kathi –

    Unless you have been a part of a church like this, you cannot understand the emotions that run through you as you listen to sermons like this. There is an inner voice that is speaking to you as you sit in church:

    “Who are you to question the ‘man of God’ as he delivers the Word of God to you?”

    “You should feel guilty for even thinking thoughts that you just expressed.”

    “Is this not what God’s Word teaches us about women and their role? Who are you to question The Pastor?”

    If you were to openly confess these thoughts in public to one of your close friends, your friend would tell her husband what you said, and word would get back to The Pastor. Your salvation would be in question, and you would have a mark placed next to your name. At the next staff or deacon meeting, your name would be brought up to The Pastor as someone who has an ungodly, rebellious spirit, and who is spreading heresy among the women of the church.

    Why don’t you leave?

    Because your husband is a respected Sunday School teacher, your children all attend the church’s Christian school, all of your friends and family a part of this church, and who knows – perhaps your thoughts really are rebellious and ungodly. Who do you think you are, anyway?

    So, you confess your sins to God and in the future keep them to yourself. This, after all, is your life.

  33. On the Adam/Eve sin thing. If someone is going to go there, they need to rethink. Keep in mind that Eve was allegedly deceived by the master deceiver, Satan. Adam, however, was deceived and also sinned, but he was deceived by Eve, and not the master deceiver. Besides, if you are a Calvinist, this was all God’s doing in the first place, so why blame the poor woman who came into being as an adult with no one but that dumb man to interact with about what God really meant.

  34. I saw in the comments from the members of the church the hint of possible restoration of this man. That is a great mistake, one of the worst, a church can commit — returning a fallen pastor to the pulpit after a pro forma confession, repentance, and a (likely paid) time off to reflect and “get his life back together”. A pastor in this situation needs to be in intensive counseling for at least two years while not in ministry, by a counselor with training and experience in dealing with adultery by a professional. Then, and only then, and only with the endorsement of the counselor, should the pastor even be present at that church or interacting with any members not in his immediate family.

    If returning to any position in a church, there must be a panel of oversight, by skeptics including both men and women in equal numbers, with weekly meetings for confrontation. The former pastor must have a glass walled office, never counsel a female, never meet alone with a female, never be in authority over a young person or any female (hard given IFB theology!!!), never supervise an employee, etc.

    Keep in mind that in most states, the disparate power structure of the pastor over a young church member gives rise to possible civil liabilities. If the young person had ever been on the payroll, the you have employer abuse. If anything happens a second time by the former pastor, the church will probably not survive the damages sought in a lawsuit.

    There is a good chance that, since there was a problem with the immediate prior pastor and the church “allowed” (by not taking steps to prevent it) this abuse, this could well be treated in the legal sphere as a pattern and result in severe damages as it is.

  35. @ Former Fundamentalist:

    “Schaap believes this intimate relationship between Christ and his bride is the same thing as the sexual relationship between a man and his wife. Schaap views communion as the act of intercourse between Christ and the believer.”

    ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

  36. Well, count me among the naive when it comes to IFB-type churches. At this point I am thankful that my early exposure to religion was Catholic, and I was not exposed to the likes of Schaap as a female child growing up! Needless to say, I was appalled by the little clip. Can you imagine being a young girl listening to that week after week. You could EASILY grow up thinking that God hated you from day one – UUGGHHHH!

    I was also sickened by all the hootin and hollerin and praising (of something – but not the God I know) in the background. I’m sorry, but that whole clip sounded like some kind of rally against women and the people in the pews who just don’t measure up to Schaap.

    Here is a question for anyone that is familiar with the Baptist world. Are all Baptist churches congregtional (meaning members vote)? Are the women in the FBC above allowed to vote? Just wondering . . .

    Of course, if the women are all like Sarah (on the other post) they may well vote him in again! I’m flabbergasted that Sarah commented to voice her concern for this man and all the good that he has done — really? Yet, has seemingly no concern for the 16 year-old girl. I’m in agreement with someone earlier who pointed out that school teachers would go to prison for having a relationship with one of their 16 year-old students . . . yet pastors often get a pass 🙁

    Seems it might be safer to send your teen-aged girls to public school than to send them to Sunday school and youth group at some churches.

    I don’t recall Jesus ever speaking to people who came to hear him the way Schaap was speaking to his congregants.

  37. @ Jan:

    It was my understanding that the (strict) definition of the Regulative Principle was that we only do in worship what God has explicitly commanded. Of course this is often contrasted with the “Normative Principle,” under which we can do whatever God hasn’t explicitly forbidden (believed by those big bad evil Lutherans who do completely out-of-control things, like using a liturgy). Personally I think both principles are inadequate ways to treat the silence of Scripture, though I do trend much closer to the Normative. To me, when Scripture is silent on a topic (like musical instruments under the New Covenant), it’s an invitation to use common sense, not invoke some wooden “principle” that’s never stated in Scripture.

    The RP is really little more than an argument from silence anyway. It never actually says in the Bible that all worship-related passages (and we define those how?) shall be interpreted according to principle X (explicit command only), while all other passages shall be interpreted according to principle Y (common sense). And why, if the RP is so straightforward, can no two conservative Calvinists agree on its application? You’d think “explicit commands” would be easier to find.

    Also, I’m beginning to wonder if the RP is only a white Calvinist thing. I know a black Pentecostal musician who worked with black Presbyterians for years and had never heard of the RP until I told her about it.

  38. Addendum: that same Calvinist who defined Miriam out of the “public worship zone” also, in the same article, said that we should make every effort to reconstruct ancient Hebrew instruments, because they’re the only ones explicitly mentioned in Psalms. He also went on extensively about modern stringed instruments having the wrong number of strings to be “Biblical.” Given all that hard work, I’m not sure how he managed to prove to himself that the Western tonal system (in which all his church’s music is written) is Biblical…

  39. An Attorney said: “Adam, however, was deceived and also sinned, but he was deceived by Eve….” Uhh..scripture refers to Adam’s sin as disobedience and transgression; never deception. Just sayin’…..

  40. If Shaap was ever reinstated, the trust issue would forever change the relationship with the congretation I would think.

  41. You should have some sort of disclaimer for those of us who are about to eat lunch or supper, so that we don’t lose our appetite or become nauseous after watching that video… which, I did.

    The cheers and affirmations from the crowd in the background just about did me in. What’s worse is that there was a time in my life that I would have agreed with Schaap… I felt so ashamed of being a woman, so horrified that it was my gender that brought sin into the world…

    I feel such despair for the women and men who are trapped in that mindset. God, set them free.

  42. Former Fundamentalist –

    Schaap, D. Wilson, and Mark Driscoll must be reading the same books and sharing their notes.

  43. Here is a question for anyone that is familiar with the Baptist world. Are all Baptist churches congregtional (meaning members vote)? Are the women in the FBC above allowed to vote? Just wondering . . .

    First you have to define which Baptist. Southern Baptist (SBC), Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB), American Baptist, and others. The SBC is (was?) the biggest and mostly in the south as it was created over a split over the slavery issue. And SBC churches, for most of their past, have been the pillar of within the SBC statement of faith do your own thing. For most of its history most congregations were very flat. All members equal and any member could bring up any issue for a vote at the monthly business meeting. And every issue was voted on by every member in attendance. As mega churches appeared many of them switched to an elder led system where an elder led body would deal with day to day things as a practical matter. And the elders where elected by the congregation as a whole. But what has happened over time is many of these elder led churches have switched to a system where the current elder board is in charge of selecting the slate of new elders up for election. And if you don't see how this could go bad in many ways you need to take a deep breath and think about it.

    And from another but parallel direction a lot of the YRR pastors coming out of seminary where they were taught authoritarianism is the way to go and in many cases gradually over the last couple of decades got churches to allow the lead pastor or team to run the elder boards. Now you're close to divine right of kings IMNERHO.

    This is a very abbreviated comment on this subject. And as such way over simplified the issues. Wikipedia is a great way to start looking around at all of this. Lots of rabbits and holes you can chase them down for hours. With many links to other sources.

    And for your reading enjoyment: http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-pope-needs-a-business-meeting

    And for reference I grew up in an SBC flat congregational led church and have been involved with various elder led situations over the year. Flat is better. When things go wrong they CAN be fixed. (No sure thing here but with everyone with a voice a fix is possible.) When a closed elder led church goes wrong it is likely to not be fixed. Again IMNERHO.

  44. Bridget

    Thanks for the kudos. I have worked with churches where the pastor committed adultery. Where the other person was a church employee working on the pastor’s book of sermons, and other enterprises, and he moved the work off-site to rented space where the “seduction” occurred. And the other where a church member who had known the pastor for a long time was in a failing marriage with small children and was being counseled by the pastor. There is extensive literature for churches to use to prevent and to respond appropriately to these kinds of events, but it usually is rejected for flimsy reasons (e.g., some is published by the Baptists, so it gets rejected on that basis; some by a different denomination, etc., some by seminary professors, some by attorneys — those evil lawyers!) Some is even published by insurance companies who insure churches, and it gets rejected and sometimes results in higher premiums as a result.

  45. Lynn,

    AMEN! The best church I was a member of was very flat. Pastor did not speak at business meetings unless asked and then usually demurred on taking a position on the matter at hand. Deacons stayed out of church business as a body, committees were elected by the monthly business meeting, nominated by a committee on which the pastor did not sit. Reports came straight from committee to the business meeting without review by anyone else. Great discussions, almost always a unanimous or 90% vote, generous opportunity for discussion. Worst issue was color of wall paper in the front of the sanctuary b/c two mothers with daughters to be married in the church wanted different colors!!!! Solved by installing the new wallpaper between the two weddings. Best giving church, very missional in service to the inner city and starting other congregations, wonderful spirit.

  46. Bridget –

    Ironically, any good IFB would have nothing to do with Wilson, Driscoll, et. al. They are viewed as worldly and not of God. From their music to their dress to the simple fact that they don’t have the word “baptist” in the name of their church or hold strictly to the KJV as the only inspired English translation of the Bible, they would be considered liberal in many areas and heretics in many more.

    IFB are not Calvinist in any way. They view Calvinism as a form of heresy that has infected the church. IFB churches proudly proclaim that they are “soul winning churches,” and that it is strictly up to man to both share the gospel and to receive the gospel.

    Fundamental Baptists live a highly legalistic lifestyle – they believe in complete separation from the world (2 Cor. 6:17; 1 Peter 1:16) and from other “Christians” who hold to worldy beliefs. They do not attend movies, dance, drink alcohol, smoke, play cards, believe in “mixed swimming,” or fellowship with churches outside of fundamental baptist churches. They believe rock music causes a physical negative reaction to the rhythm of the heart. They believe it is sinful to sing to a pre-recorded music track in church or to physically hold a microphone while singing (appears worldly). The men where suits and ties to church and the women where dresses. In some IFB churches, the members turn to their pastor for counsel in a wide variety of life decisions – should they have 3 children or 4? Should they purchase this house or that house? Should they drive a Ford or a Chevy?

    I know – some of you are probably thinking, “that’s crazy!” It is, but this is the life they live. They know nothing of the love of Jesus Christ or of His grace. In the IFB mindset, we are saved by grace through faith only to live a life of works and perfection. God’s grace and mercy and the moment you say, I believe. From that point forward, your life is a life of rules, outward appearances, conforming, and doing what is right.

    If you don’t conform to these standards, you will be marked as liberal or perhaps even as lost.

  47. This is part 3 of the 20/20 special on the IFB. In this video Schaap has a special rant against women beginning at 5:39:

    “It irritates me and it bothers me when I see that a man falls in love with a beautiful thing that God made and then she just lets herself go. You keep what you were when you caught that man and you stay at that. I’m not mad at anybody here. I’m just amazed how, how it doesn’t matter to you, you don’t try at all. Good grief! Touch that man’s heart, keep that man’s heart. Motivate that man, inspire him to do something big for God. The only inspiration some of you are is, you bring home another box of donuts.”

    Now besides calling women “things” and the blatant lie that he is not mad at anybody there being that he is screaming at them and berating them the whole time, he seems to think that, in spite of the clear Biblical teaching that charm is fleeting and beauty fades, after decades of marriage and however many children and hormonal changes, a woman is supposed to continue throughout her days to look just like she did when they married. And then comes the implication that if her man does not do “something big” for God it’s because his wife let herself go. So once again his failure is her fault.

    And then at 6:39 we get our “cold day in hell” comment.

    This guy is a real piece of work.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJWLz28jhuc

  48. “Schaap, D. Wilson, and Mark Driscoll must be reading the same books and sharing their notes.”

    This is why Calvinism is not really the issue. It is authoritarianism/Patriarchy. Although I will admit it is easier to build and maintain authoritarianism with a Calvinist foundation as they believe in a determinist God and map that to the specially annointed leaders.

    Jesus came to SERVE and DIE for others. That is the part these guys hate. So what are they? Charlatans. Hirlings. Wolves. Nicolaitans. Run.

  49. anonymous,

    That rant about women letting themselves go sounded just like Mark Driscoll. Of course, men NEVER let themselves go, right?

  50. Re: the sexual relationship thing being an example… I just about fell out of my seat when I read FF’s comment because this is the second time I’ve read someone promoting this teaching this week.

    Here is the other example:
    http://www.girlsgonewise.com/sex-in-the-shadowlands/

    Seriously. Have other people heard this from mainstream teachers? I’ve been reading and studying this stuff for years and unless I’m having a total mental block I can’t remember anyone saying this before this week.

  51. His theology is scary. He doesn’t recognize the many influential women in the Old Testament let alone the New. Based on his view Apollos should have only been taught by Aquila and not Priscilla, even though Priscilla is given prominence by being mentioned first.

  52. Sallie,

    Thanks for bringing Mary Kassian’s blog post to my attention.  Looks like we have something else to address.  I wonder if this is what she will be discussing at the upcoming True Woman conference. These people are WACKO!

     

  53. Sallie,

    Thanks for the link. Sometimes I read stuff like this and I don’t know where to start because I am so downtrodden about how misguided this kind of stuff is. And how some people can say whatever they want without evidence, argumnent, logic, or accountability. I am worried that we’re going to start hearing about ‘covenent sex’ now! Can we get any more bizarre? I feel like I’m in an evangelical Fellini film!

  54. I remember reading somewhere (and I’m thinking it was Doug Wilson, but don’t quote me) about the penetration and hymenal blood of a virginal wedding night being a ‘type and shadow’ of ‘cutting a blood covenant’ or something similar.

  55. Schaap believes this intimate relationship between Christ and his bride is the same thing as the sexual relationship between a man and his wife. Schaap views communion as the act of intercourse between Christ and the believer. He sexualizes NT passages that speak of abiding in Christ and that we are one in Christ. — Former Fundie

    Medieval/Renaissance “Bridal Mysticism” on Steroids and Viagra. Without the excuse of being cloistered nuns in a milieu where asexuality was the mark of Godliness and those who weren’t cut out for it had to project somewhere.

    Wasn’t sexual relationship between god and mortal (often with a priest as mortal stand-in for the god) part and parcel of sex-worshipping fertility cults? Asherah, Aphrodite, Artagatis, Priapus, etc?

    P.S. Jesus & Schaap are both male, right?

  56. Richard,

    Great comment and welcome to TWW!  It certainly appears that if these misogynistic guys had their way, they would remove the names of any godly women from the Bible.

  57. I, too, don’t understand how people can listen to him. I personally can’t stand being yelled at. His only way of speaking is yelling. For me, listening to a yelling preacher automatically sets up a wall. Yet people are obviously eating it up with all of the accolades he receives from the audience. — Kathi

    There was a lot of “yelling preacher” and audience “obviously eating it up” when a Nuremberg Rally really got going, too. Outside eyewitnesses commonly compared them to “revival meetings”. And Rabbi Boteach tells a tale in one of his books how he once watched Nuremberg Rally footage with Michael Jackson, with Jacko pointing out to him exactly how this was a performer working his audience, step by step.

    Not only is he berating women, but he’s berating the entire congregation. His comment of, “At least the word of God is going out. It’s more than any of you have ever done,” is just so inappropriate. — Kathi

    The Word of God or the Word of Schaap?

  58. Deb,

    You know, I ended up watching that whole 20/20 episode and I kept thinking things like, “it’s SGM all over again!” Or, “now it’s Mars Hill all over again!”

    Getting hard to tell these buggers apart.

  59. thatmom,

    Did you see Sallie’s comment at 3:14 pm today?  She linked to the same post. 

    Perhaps the women in the Calvinista crowd really are ‘gullible and easily deceived’. 

     

  60. Deb – I come from a PCA background, have been a member of an assortment of PCA churches for about 22 years. This stuff that Mary is writing about? This is new to me. I have never, ever heard anything like this. I am not saying that this isn’t a normal way of looking at sex in reformed churches, but I wonder how I haven’t heard of it until now.

    Frankly, these people are coming up with a whole other gospel and it is frightening. We need more women in our churches like Carolyn Custis James.

  61. “God created manhood, womanhood, marriage and sex because He wanted us to have symbols, images and language powerful enough to convey the idea of who He is and what a relationship with Him is all about. These symbols point to profound truths about the Godhead and to Christ’s relationship with the church. Without them, we would have a tough time understanding concepts such as desire, love, commitment, fidelity, infidelity, loyalty, jealousy, unity, intimacy, marriage, oneness, covenant and family. We would have a tough time understanding the Gospel.” Mary Kassian

    Really!! I suppose God personally explained this all to Mary so she could inform the rest of us. I guess only married people will be able to grasp what our relationship with Christ should be like. Single people will be left in the dust? (But what about Paul, himself, and his encouragement that it is better to stay single?) She is making an idol out of marriage. She also looks at marriage as a symbol to lead us in our relationships with Christ. This is backwards. Try looking at the Godhead and how Jesus interacts with His bride to model our marriages after. (If you happen to be married.)

    Sallie –

    I have heard some of this teaching over the past 20 years. It started after the Danvers Statement and the tome to support it were written. She puts many words in God’s mouth as far as I am concerned.

    I don’t think it would be that difficult for God to reveal the Gospel to anyone without marriage. I’m sure he has done it many times. I think some married folks think they have a better grasp of the Gospel than those not married. They are wrong.

  62. Great point, Bridget. There are a number of sentences from Kassian in that post that are similarly arbitrary and false generalizations. This New Calvinism stuff is quite the extra-biblical ideological formation. What amazes me is the flippancy with which these people speak for God.

  63. Deb sorry I dOn’t know what happened… Missed a bunch of comments! SO glad it isn’t just me that thinks this is all crazy talk!

  64. RE: Jan on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 02:04 AM,

    If I understand your comment correctly, you and your hubby are still in a church that is heavily patriarchal? If I may ask with all sincerity and no snarkiness, what compels you folks to stay?

  65. Bridget –

    “Without them, we would have a tough time understanding concepts such as desire, love, commitment, fidelity, infidelity, loyalty, jealousy, unity, intimacy, marriage, oneness, covenant and family. We would have a tough time understanding the Gospel” (Mary K)

    Your words sound strange to me. ‘desire’? ‘commitment’? ‘jealousy’? ‘family’? ‘sex’? What are all these funny words here in this magical box of lights they call a ‘computer’? I’m not married, so I suppose I don’t understand these things. I will have to find out about them on my wedding day.

  66. Sophie

    Just for clarification – Bridget was quoting Mary Kassian. I feel another rant coming on about Mary K and her ilk.

  67. Oh Deb, please rant away about Mary K…It’s all so extra-biblical & super-spiritual & worded in ways which make it seem like you can’t possibly argue with it all.

    And I massively applaud your reply to Sarah & Rob on the other thread for ignoring the victim in this case – it’s weird that something that sounds like such a deeply christian plea can be so far off the mark…How dare they leave her out & concentrate on him? One very small step from enabling him to find another young woman.

  68. I agree. Deb, please rant away about Mary K. I just went and read all of the posts and comments in her current series about complementarianism. Wowsers. She attracted some very good commenters. I’ll save my thoughts for your rant.

  69. Re HUG’s remarks on medieval mysticism, I remember we did do this in German as part of my course – but it was apparently stressed that the writers then went out of their way to make it clear that there was no sexual element.

    When I read Schaap’s stuff from that link I almost fell off my chair!

  70. Re Mary Kassian and symbols, etc, I think there is a danger in Christian (or any) theology that we try to see symbols in things that are simply not there, a bit like the human tendency to see shapes or faces in clouds. People have done this (I think) with the animal kingdom in the past – the courage of the lion, etc – and while it may work at a folk or colloquial level, I think applying it to our thoughts about God is at best speculative and at worst misleading and dangerous.

    I know the Bible talks about the moral example of certain animals in towards the end of Proverbs, but I think in the context it uses them to make points about industriousness and God’s wisdom rather than teaching us about God’s relationship with the believer.

    Paul uses the picture of marriage as a picture of Christ and His Bride in Ephesians, but in 1 Corinthians he is much more down to earth about it, in my opinion. I think once we start getting into what theology allows in the marriage bed between a husband and wife we are on a very slippery slope.

  71. Actually I am a complementarian, but this was absolute and utter sexist rubbish. This is NOT what the complementarians I know believe.

  72. JJ – I haven’t watched the West Wing (been meaning to for years, just haven’t gotten around to it), but that clip was fantastic. I really want to watch it now!

  73. Re Mary Kassian, Schaap ect. – We’re going to be in heaven with these people? I’m having to rethink this whole Christianity thing!

  74. About the Mary Kassian article, I just left a comment (currently in moderation, so we’ll see if it gets published) asking what she’s going on about. It’s only a short question, because the whole post was so bizarre, but was basically about her last section, ‘sex symbolises covenant fulfilment’. This is what I asked:

    “You describe the coming of Christ as us basically having sex with Him? Huh?”

    And Bridget, thank you for mentioning singles. We’re always left out in these discussions, aren’t we? Guess we’d better go and find a partner – any partner – so we can be part of the cool in-crowd.

  75. OK. Someone help me out here please (this is a bit OT).

    I see in the Mary K link she has a picture illustrating various sorts of head/body relationships. I am wondering about the one that has elders in the head position and believers in the body position.

    My question is, isn’t that somewhat Nicolaitan? It makes it seem like elders are a special class of believer who are essentially above the masses, if you see what I mean. At least that was the way it struck me.

    Is this where they get their authoritarianism from?

    Am I nuts?

  76. anonymous

    You have hit on an important point. It is my contention that many of today’s authoritarian pastors believe that they, along with elders (who are slightly lower than them) are above the congregation.

  77. “I’m sorry, but that whole clip sounded like some kind of rally against women and the people in the pews who just don’t measure up to Schaap.”

    You know what it sounded like to me? If you replaced the references to women with references to African Americans, it could be a clip of a modern-day KKK meeting complete with angry shouting from the audience. Pretty scary.

    The patriarchs have to back up their theology somehow, so they’ve decided to put the cart before the horse and say that marriage and genders were created to give us a picture of Christ and how the Gospel works. Because nobody wants to argue against how Christ and the Gospel work, right?

    Only problem is that the Bible never says that’s “why” marriage was created. In fact, it says directly why, and in much simpler language: “It is not good for man to be alone.”

    There. End of story. There’s your answer!

  78. Wow. In a lot of ways, this reminded me of my former pastor. Scary is right. And the congregation I used to be part of responded the same way when he would yell at us and call it preaching.

    I agree that the point where he looks up and says, “I’m glad I’m a man,” is very telling – and chilling. And looking at him…and the young girl was 16? He holds incredible power of her. She never had a chance……and I don’t say this lightly – I ask it based on sad experience – I wonder how many more there are?

  79. Now, now, anonymous and Dee. Maybe you didn’t look closely at Mary’s nice picture. Each little person has a Head (Father) of the House and a Body. That makes perfect sense, doesn’t it? And the Head(Father) of the House is a heart, and the Body is a heart, too! Isn’t that a good way to understand erotic necessities? If you look closely, you will see that the Head (Father) of the House has an outward interlocking piece and the Body has an inward place that will receive the outward interlocking piece to point to the time when Christ the Bridegroom and His Bride will come together in fulfillment of the New Covenant. Of course that is obvious. I don’t know why you don’t automactically make the connection between hearts with interlocking pieces and the elders of a church. It’s right in the Bible. Mary says so.

  80. @ Never Again:

    “I remember reading somewhere (and I’m thinking it was Doug Wilson, but don’t quote me) about the penetration and hymenal blood of a virginal wedding night being a ‘type and shadow’ of ‘cutting a blood covenant’ or something similar.”

    I had heard (though I can’t confirm this at all so don’t quote me either) that either R. J. Rushdoony or Gary North believed this and that it was either the cause of, or a contributing factor in, their falling out. I still can’t find the info on this, though. Either someone did the finest scrub job in the history of the internet; it was never publicized (which I can understand, because it’s completely bizarro); or my information is wrong and someone else held this weird belief.

  81. And to everyone who pointed out that Kassian article…oh boy. Did she really just come within a hairsbreadth of claiming that the church will have some kind of “spiritual sex” with Jesus? (She did say our “physical union” with Christ – cue skin crawl!) Oops, I’m sorry – I mean, COVENANTAL sex. HOLY covenantal sex. And in light of the Schaap situation, I think her chart in which church elders and church members share the same kind of “union” relationship as husband and wife was a little inappropriate.

    Also, they really, really need to stop using the phrase “erotic necessity.” It was just creepy to read it in that article.

  82. @ Dana:

    “It’s right in the Bible. Mary says so.”

    Even though Mary is not allowed to write theology columns in a public forum according to her own theology. That’s why she can gently “suggest” to the rest of us estrogen-afflicted persons that we consider not speaking in church.

  83. Hester re: women not speaking in church but teaching theology online to the world…

    That is why we end up with things like this:

    http://www.fpcjackson.org/resources/family_and_culture/christian%20manhood%20and%20womanhood/articles/grudem_wayne_but_what_should_women_do_in_the_church.htm

    I almost offered a Starbucks gift card to the first person on my blog who said they read the whole thing without their eyes glazing over. I’ve tried so many times and it is simply numbing to read…

  84. @ Hester:

    Well, I have to admit “egalitarian pleasuring party” and “erotic necessity” are now everyday phrases for me, as in: “Egalitarian pleasuring parties are an erotic necessity, don’t you think?” Thank you, Doug Wilson.

    I’m now considering adding “produce fireworks” because of Mary Kassian’s fine work. I’m not sure how I might use it: “That sermon was so good, it nearly produced fireworks!” or “I won’t consider any eschatology that doesn’t emphasize the production of fireworks.” Hmmmm….

  85. Ok, that was disgusting. Was he in a room full of men? Can you imagine being a woman in that audience? They were probably shrinking in their seat with each word. They must feel so beaten down week after week. The arrogance, the belittling. Yea, the Word of God was getting out alright, and people probably said they wanted none of it. Ick.

  86. Muff Potter,

    You wondered why my husband and I are still at the patriarchal (reformed) church. The short answer (since I need to go to bed!)… is, it’s a little complicated. :-/ My husband doesn’t know that I want to leave. He doesn’t even know yet that I’m questioning/rejecting pretty much all things reformed. I could use prayer on how to bring this up with him.

  87. Also, though I can’t bring myself to listen to that “sermon” excerpt, I will tell you that I have seen behavior in kids similar to what Deb’s daughter experienced. For example, family X has four kids, three boys and a girl. When the girl complained about her chores, her brothers said that she had to because they told her to and the Bible says “boys rule girls!” These are upper elementary/middle school age kids.

    I know that this is probably just an immature 12-year-old male shooting his mouth off (as immature 12-year-old males are wont to do), but when I hear this stuff, it still takes every ounce of will power I possess not to slap the parents and give the boy a strongly-worded reality check. If I had kids, I would NEVER let my son get away with that crap if I caught him treating his sister that way. EVER. I just hope the parents don’t think it’s cute.

  88. Sallie, I tried to read that a while ago. My eyes glazed over about half way down. Grudem has lost it.

  89. @ Former Fundamentalist

    I just read that link of yours with Schaap’s reading sex into Bible passages – I think I need a scalding shower to burn off the feeling of disgust just from reading that.

  90. I still haven’t seen the clip yet – I don’t think I can bear to ! I will keep reading the comments instead and see at some stage if I can inflict the clip watching on myself. My sense of curiousity with this chap is nil.
    PS Pam (Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 09:03 PM) I watched the West Wing complete series a few years ago now over the Christmas/New Years break. It was a marathon, exhilarating effort! Glad I took down the fun quotes at the time. It’s oft quoted in the public service. Sam, Josh, Toby & CJ – they rocked!

  91. @ Dana: you are right on my wavelength there! We could write a phrase book for all this stuff…Egalitarian Uses for Complementarian Nonsense.

  92. Thanks Dee! It’s good to know I’m not nuts.

    Dana, I didn’t think about a possible erotic element to the elder/congregation bifurcation. In spite of the fact that is the whole point of her article, I managed not to notice it for that particular picture. But now that you mention it…I think I’ll go throw up.

  93. Ok just read that Mary Kassian thing. WHAT??? That is just plain blasphemy! To connect covenants of God with sex is far out of the ballpark. These people have lost it. As with the Shcaap guy these people always seem to love to bring in sexual discussion into the pulpit. We have seen that with Ed Young and his “bed on the stage” routines. When I see preachers talking excessively about sex and the female role I will run the other way- there is a definite problem.

  94. Re: elders as head, believers as body

    Here’s what I’m thinking. How do you have part of the bride symbolizing the Father (or is it Christ in this case?) while the rest of the bride symbolizes the church? I don’t see how you can bifurcate the bride like that. Scripture says we are the body/bride and Christ is our Head. I do not see how you can subdivide the body/bride again into head/body as Mary K does without scrambling the picture and confusing who the H/head is. I wonder what this does to the priesthood of the believer?

    I thought the whole purpose of leadership was to keep things from exploding in a democratic free for all. In other words, the purpose is order, not symbol. The context would be simply one part of the body (leaders/elders) being gifted to serve in this way, not to give an appearance of (let alone an actual!) elevation of these believers over other believers due to their particular gifting. In 1 Corinthians 12, Paul goes into depth on the body and various giftings and sums up in verse 27 with “Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.” He seems here to want to affirm by implication that Christ is the Head of the body and the rest of the body is the various members. Paul doesn’t even suggest here that there are gifts which would elevate, or give the appearance of elevation, of some members to headship to demonstrate Christ’s headship over the body. But I don’t know how that can be avoided, or even if Mary K would intend to avoid it, or how it does not give the appearance (at least) of the elevation of leadership above the rest of the body, or how that is not Nicolaitan in essence.

    Being that Luther was the priesthood of the believer guy, I wonder if any Lutherans could chime in on this?

    Does Mary K’s idea fit the priesthood of the believer in some way I’m not seeing? Or does it violate it?

  95. Kelly,

    Sigh. Now even make up is gospel!

    I wonder if this symbolism deal is why everything has suddenly become gospel to these people?

  96. Kelly –

    I see her odd theology as upper-middle-class-North-American-white-woman finger wagging at everyone else. There is nothing that she cannot connect to God by passing it through her nice-upper-middle-class-North-American-white-woman-view intending to show how great life can be if you happen to be Mary K.

    She’s a good example of what goes on in women’s ministry teaching – God is jaw-droppingly wonderful, you probably can’t understand it, be content and do what I say. Submit to my glorious nice-upper-middle-class-North-American-white-woman life that my husband has provided. I mean, who doesn’t live in Canada while being a distinguished professor of Women’s Studies at SBTS in Kentucky?

  97. The whole ‘godly beauty’ thing is incredibly strange, especially seeing as some of the earliest things I heard from Christians about beauty was how bad and sinful make-up is, and how anyone who wore make-up had pretty much booked their place in hell (I grew up in a non-Christian home with not a huge amount of contact to Christians, so I’m not sure if that was a common view or not). Those who didn’t say that, and what I heard when I started out as a Christian and through my teens wasn’t anywhere near that extreme, but it was vehemently critical of the shallow worldly attitude of beauty. When did we flip over to a L’Oreal commercial?

    Mary equates physical appearance with the ‘beauty’ of the relationship between Christ and the church. I can give her using the word ‘beauty’ to describe the relationship, but it’s not a beauty that is remotely like physical attractiveness. To suggest that it is cheapens it so so much – it prevents such a superficial view of that relationship.

    And of course, yet again, Mary just ignores singles. I guess singles just have been ‘sinful’ and not cared about our beauty enough? It’s taken me enough years to ignore the advertising, media, and sociocultural pressures and expectations placed on women’s appearance, I really don’t need to deal with that crap coming from those in the church.

  98. I also find it odd that people who eschew sacramental theology find that everything else is symbolic and must be maintained in specifice ways so that we as Christians can properly point others to God. I mean, really, I have run into so many non-believers that exclaim that the one thing that could convert them is how marriage, especially Christian marriage, so clearly shows the gospel. It’s a wonder anyone needs a Bible to learn about Christ when there are beautiful Christian marriages everywhere demonstrating the gospel for us. Anyone can see it. And that beautiful women show that Christ desires a beautiful bride. It’s such a no-brainer that most people come to faith in Christ by seeing beautiful women. I hear that all the time. 🙂

  99. Reading this and thinking about how Voddie Baucham said that older men “need” the attention of younger women, that’s why God gave them daughters. Maybe this was all the fault of Schaap’s daughter.

  100. Kelly, anonymous, Dana,

    I come from a different perspective. When I first joined the patriarchal crowd, I would have been relieved if someone told me that it was a positive thing to look nice. The emphasis where I’m at is on looking looking “discreet,” so the (usually unspoken) pressure to conform resulted in me going to the nearest thrift store and buying an entire wardrobe of outdated, poorly fitted long skirts and blouses. My husband (then my boyfriend) was neither overly thrilled nor overly bothered by it. My mom was horrified and actually burned some of the stuff I bought behind my back! (Thank God for mom’s with common sense!) 🙂 It’s one of those “unspoken no-no’s”, but any intentional efforts to look beautiful seem to be looked upon with suspicion (earrings, fashionable jewelry, nice clothes, hairstyling or wearing one’s hair down, high heels, bright colors, make-up). No one’s confrontational or nasty about it, but it’s just how it is.

    I’m happy to say that my last thrift store trip with my hubby resulted in a pile of fashionable shirts and several pairs of jeans. Which I am practically wearing to sleep at night. 🙂

    Now I say, don’t tell me I have to look perfect (Mrs. Kassian), don’t glare at me if I try to. Now that I have a newly-found confidence of the inner beauty that Christ gives, I’m done trying to use outer appearances to “fit in” – anywhere. Just gonna wear what I like when I want.

  101. I recently recorded some podcasts with Jon Zens where he talks about the whole problem with the hierarchy issue in the church in general. Highly recommend his most recent book on the subject….This goes far beyond the men and women issues when it comes to relationships and the priesthood of the believer. Mary’s drawing proves her views of hierarchy no matter how much she protests to the contrary.

  102. anonymous on Sat Aug 04, 2012 at 08:55 AM

    Much agreement with your thoughts and questions…
    “Scripture says we are the body/bride and **Christ is our Head.** I do not see how you can **subdivide the body/bride** again into head/body as Mary K does without scrambling the picture and confusing who the H/head is. I wonder what this does to the priesthood of the believer?”

    IMO – “the priesthood of the believer” is talked about but NOT practiced by
    “Pastors who Abuse” and “The Abusive Religious System.” – Because…

    They do NOT want to lose their – Power – Profit – Prestige – Honor – Glory – Recognition.

    “or how it does not give the appearance (at least) of the elevation of leadership above the rest of the body, or how that is not Nicolaitan in essence.”

    In my experience, so-called “Leadership” has elevated themselves, and separated from the body.
    Seems to me there is an ugly emphasis on so-called “Leadership” by “Pastors who Abuse.”

    Have you ever wondered why Jesus taught His Disciples NOT to be called “Leaders?”
    For you have “ONE” leader – the Christ?

    And NONE did…

    NOT one of His Disciples called themselves – or another Disciple – “Leader.”
    In the Bible, ALL of “His Disciples” called themselves “Servants.” 😉

    New American Standard Bible – Mat 23:10-12.
    Do not be called leaders; for “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.
    But the greatest among you shall be your servant.
    Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled;
    and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

    If someone calls them self – “Leader.”

    Are they a Disciple? Of Jesus Christ?

    Seems Jesus asks believers to “Follow Jesus.”
    NOT – “Mere Fallible Humans.”

    John 10:27
    “My sheep” – hear MY voice, –
    and I know them, and they *Follow me:*

  103. thatmom

    Seems to me Jesus focused on “Lower-archy.”

    NOT hierarchy – Which is the constant cry of “The Abusive Religious System” of Today.

    Jesus – our best example – as man…

    Jesus humbled Himself, made Himself of NO reputation,
    And took on the form of a “Servant.” Phil 2:7-8.

    Seems when you take “Titles” and “Positions” NOT found in the Bible…
    “Pastor/Reverend/Leader” – You NOW have a “Reputation” whether you want it or NOT.

    Jer 50:6
    *My people* hath been *lost sheep:*
    “their shepherds” have caused them “to go astray,”

  104. Jan,

    I’m all for you dressing the way you like to dress. I have nothing against beauty and don’t consider covering up attractiveness to be spiritual. I also don’t consider telling women that they have a responsibility to cultivate their own beauty to show some doctine of Christ and the Church to be spiritual. Both views are go beyond the goodness of beauty and our enjoyment of it, in my opinion.

    Have fun shopping – and enjoy your jeans. I wear ’em most days myself.

  105. “My question is, isn’t that somewhat Nicolaitan? It makes it seem like elders are a special class of believer who are essentially above the masses, if you see what I mean. At least that was the way it struck me”

    Yep. You nailed it. You are not nuts. It is right before our eyes. The Nicolaitans have taken over much of evangelical Christendom and most people think it is what the bible teaches when it is the total opposite.

    First thing we must do is describe an elder according to SPIRITUAL function. Then when we do, we go and search the NT for WHEN and WHERE elders are suggested. Note, this is not a blanket rule.

    Read this,study it and try to find holes in it. It is worth your time:

    http://frankviola.org/straight.pdf

    The other thing people miss is that head/body is not used in scripture to denote an authority/follower model. It is used as a “unity” model. If the Holy Spirit were Inspiring use of authority model, He would not have used Kephale. There are clear Greek words for authority. Head is not one of them and was not thought of as that way in the 1st Century. We read our own Western definitions back into scripture.

    Of course if you start studying and realize these things, then you will not be a good follower of the Nicolaitans. And they will have to make sure you know you are a heretic, not saved or whatever. It is getting very ugly out there.

  106. “I have nothing against beauty and don’t consider covering up attractiveness to be spiritual. I also don’t consider telling women that they have a responsibility to cultivate their own beauty to show some doctine of Christ and the Church to be spiritual.”

    Dana,

    Exactly. Thank you! It is just amazing to me how the comp/pat crowd seems to go to one of these extremes or the other, depending on what “brand” they are. The thing they have in common is the emphasis on outward appearance.

  107. Oh…that hurts my heart.

    And to see the laughing and smiling of the men behind him and the cheers of the crowd.

    That must break Jesus’ heart as well.

  108. When he said “I’m glad I’m a man!” my thought was “It would be more accurate if he said ‘I’m glad I’m a jackass!” As in eee-awww to the max!

  109. Now I say, don’t tell me I have to look perfect (Mrs. Kassian), don’t glare at me if I try to. Now that I have a newly-found confidence of the inner beauty that Christ gives, I’m done trying to use outer appearances to “fit in” – anywhere. Just gonna wear what I like when I want.

    +1!

    I believe you have the Spirit on this, Jan! 🙂

  110. Seems Jesus asks believers to “Follow Jesus.”
    NOT – “Mere Fallible Humans.”

    John 10:27
    “My sheep” – hear MY voice, –
    and I know them, and they *Follow me:*

    A. Amos Love,

    I can’t tell you how many times in recent months I have had those very words in my heart and on my tongue. There are more and more occasions these days where I find I have to chose between Jesus and a given mere fallible human.

  111. Anon 1,

    Thank you for the link. I’ll get started on it this afternoon.

    Yes, it is getting ugly out there for sure!

  112. Hey, I got a great idea for a new ministry that will be very popular with non-christians! Kassian say “without [marriage and sex]… we would have a tough time understanding the Gospel”.
    The great idea is: For teens and adults who have not experienced marriage yet, complementarian married couples could make DVDs of them(the complementarian couples) doing the intimacy thing in the bedroom! Just think, they could help us poor disadvantaged singles to understand the gospel!
    [/sarcasm off]
    How did I, for years, teach Sunday school classes for children between 6 and 10 years and sometimes younger – and explained the gospel to them without once referring to sex? In fact, it is my experience that the very people who are to young to understand sexual attraction, understand the gospel most easily.

  113. anonymous on Sat Aug 04, 2012 at 01:11 PM

    Seems to me Jesus really loves you and He is drawing you unto Himself.

    Just give me Jesus. 😉

    And – Your understanding – And – Anon 1’s understanding – of…
    The Nicolaitans – Running “The Abusive Religious System” is – IMO – correct.

    “if you start studying and realize these things, then you will **NOT**
    be a good follower of the Nicolaitans.”

    The Nicolaitans – seem to get very ugly – When you challenge their – Power – Profit – Prestige.

    This separation – From what we were taught as “Truth” in “The Religious System”
    And – From the “Mere Fallible Humans” who we respected and trusted…
    Was a real challenge for me – With a lot of pain and doubts along the way.

    What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
    What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.

    It was ALL worth it – Found out – Jesus is the best teacher. 😉

    Be blessed in your search for truth… Jesus

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
    them also I must bring, and they shall *hear MY voice;*
    and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
    John 10:16

    One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice.

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

  114. and what about the victim in this debacle? Is she being punished by her friends, family, church? Is she being blamed for texting her pastor and getting caught? Or is she being loved, offered outside counseling and support within her community? I fear for her and other victims of this heinous man. I am sure the wife is being taken food and prayed with and for, is the same being done for the young girl? Or is she being blamed for tempting this awful excuse for a “Christian” man?

  115. Dare I offer a male opinion here, as one who was single, was married and is now single again?

    Obviously it is nice for a man when his wife does do herself up nicely for him – one of the things that used to hurt me towards the end of my marriage was that my wife would go to great lengths to make herself look good when she was going out with other people/friends, but seemed to do her utmost to look as unattractive to me as she could. However I never dreamt in a million years that makeup/no makeup was in some way spiritually symbolic!

    Also, men are not as shallow as some people think. Maybe it’s experience, but you can see a woman who is fantastically physically attractive (with or without makeup!) but if she has no inner beauty (call it character, personality or whatever), then in the long run it’s not that attractive. Conversely I’ve known some ladies who might not have been considered stunningly attractive to the “average” man (whoever that is!) but who had something extra that made them interesting and appealing (enough to marry if one were free to do so, and of course if they were responsive ;-)).

    Pam, I do sympathise with what you say. I felt my own status change dramatically once I was on my own again. There also seems to be a tendency among some church leaders to treat singles, even of older years, as children (perhaps naughty children).

  116. anonymous on Sat Aug 04, 2012 at 01:11 PM

    “Here “are some verses to encourage you to “Hear” from Jesus for yourself. 🙂

    It does take a step of faith to believe and trust
    that **Jesus** “can speak to you” and **teach you** “ALL” truth.

    John 6:45 KJV
    It is written in the prophets, And they shall be **ALL taught of God.**

    Deuteronomy 4:36 KJV
    Out of heaven he made thee to **hear His voice,**
    that *He might instruct thee*

    Deuteronomy 5:24 KJV
    …and we have **heard His voice** out of the midst of the fire:
    we have seen this day that **God doth talk with man,** and he liveth.

    Luke 6:46 KJV
    And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which **I say?**

    John 18:37 KJV
    …Every one that is of the truth **heareth My voice.**

    John 10:3 KJV
    … and the sheep **hear His voice:** and he calleth his own sheep by name…

    Heb 3:7-8 KJV
    …as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will **hear His voice,**
    Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation…

    John 16:13 KJV
    Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, **he will guide you into all truth**

    1 John 2:20 KJV
    Ye have an *unction from the Holy One, and ye *know all things.
    *unction = anointing – the inaugural ceremony for priests *know = perceive, discern, discover.

    1 John 2:26-27 KJV
    These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
    But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you,
    **and ye need not that any man teach you:**
    but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things,
    and is truth, and is no lie…

  117. Per the Kassian beauty article – where is the companion article for husbands who were buff in their 20’s but have since gained 300 lbs. and developed a beer gut? Haven’t they “let themselves go”?

    It’s funny, because on the one hand these people say that women like pretty and/or beautiful things (like pillows, ribbons, bunnies, etc.). This is presumably part of the “beauty of femininity” – being delicate and sensitive and such. But then they say that men are so attracted to beauty that the ladies better not “let themselves go.” So is attraction to beauty both a feminine AND masculine characteristic, or only a feminine characteristic? So confused.

  118. @ Anonymous:

    “Here’s what I’m thinking. How do you have part of the bride symbolizing the Father (or is it Christ in this case?) while the rest of the bride symbolizes the church? I don’t see how you can bifurcate the bride like that. Scripture says we are the body/bride and Christ is our Head. I do not see how you can subdivide the body/bride again into head/body as Mary K does without scrambling the picture and confusing who the H/head is. I wonder what this does to the priesthood of the believer?

    Being that Luther was the priesthood of the believer guy, I wonder if any Lutherans could chime in on this?”

    I’m Lutheran so I guess I’ll step up to the plate here. I haven’t studied much on the priesthood of all believers directly, but I can tell you that Luther believed all Christians hold the “keys to the kingdom” that Jesus talks about in Matthew 16:19. I learned from ThatMom on this blog a week or two ago that Presbyterians believe that only the church elders/presbytery hold the keys. This is presumably why presbyteries can try individual church members before excommunicating them, whereas in the Lutheran church the whole congregation votes on whether to excommunicate.

  119. Hester, you have a point about men letting themselves go, although men (like women) can’t hold back time and its effects on the human body. I think a beer gut and 300lb weight are generally inadvisable anyway, regardless of marital status!

  120. AAL

    In the sense of the Greek as used in the first century, Christ is the source or beginning of the church, and the entire church came into being through him, much as the source of a stream is a spring which we call its headwaters !!!!!! Without Christ there would be no church, so he is our source of being, and our sustainer as well.

  121. And Bridget, thank you for mentioning singles. We’re always left out in these discussions, aren’t we? Guess we’d better go and find a partner – any partner – so we can be part of the cool in-crowd. — Pam

    As was commented the last time the subject came up on Internet Monk:

    “Whether you’re in the Church or the world, the message is the same:
    IF YOU’RE NOT DOING SOMEBODY, YOU’RE A NOBODY.”

    Ok just read that Mary Kassian thing. WHAT??? That is just plain blasphemy! To connect covenants of God with sex is far out of the ballpark. These people have lost it. As with the Shcaap guy these people always seem to love to bring in sexual discussion into the pulpit. — Faith

    Why don’t they just set up groves of phalluses to Baalith-Asherah and start with the temple prostitutes?

    And what about the victim in this debacle? Is she being punished by her friends, family, church? Is she being blamed for texting her pastor and getting caught? … Or is she being blamed for tempting this awful excuse for a “Christian” man? — LJ

    In Semitic tribal culture, she would already be dead. Either turned into a pile of rocks by the Elders/Mullahs or honor-killed by her family for being such a whore. Win-Win situation for the Elders/Mullahs — grab her, do her, then have her killed for being so immoral. The-God is Most-Great.

  122. RE: Jan on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 11:54 PM,

    These things can be very delicate. I’m sure that at his core, your hubby is a kind and wonderful man, you wouldn’t have married him otherwise. It is my fervent hope that Providence will appeal to the better angels of his nature and convince him that Nicolaitan-Patriarchy IS NOT the good news of Jesus Christ.

  123. Sometimes the only way I think people can get a real handle on how much sex is the foundation of the comp/pat movement until they get out of it and see it in hindsight. It is amazing how much they talk about gender and sex.

    For those who are so wrapped up in the gender/sex thing of that movement, I often ask how the women can be Christlike since Jesus was a man. They fail to understand that Christianity is SPIRITUAL and a relationship with the Living God.

  124. Presbyterians believe that only the church elders/presbytery hold the keys. This is presumably why presbyteries can try individual church members before excommunicating them, whereas in the Lutheran church the whole congregation votes on whether to excommunicate.

    Hmm. I didn’t even think of it from that angle. I was thinking more of principle than practice but obviously the rubber would have to meet the road somewhere….

  125. Jan/Dana

    I try to dress nicely, especially on days when I want to be taken seriously by a seclalr inistitution. When I dress nicely, I never once thought i was doing so for some sptiritual reason. Most people I interact with dress well and many of them are NOT Christians. In fact, there are women, such as Mother Theresa, who only owned two habits, that speak more clearly of Christ by her sacrifice than I do with my cute shoes.

    Dressing well is neither a good or a bad. It is  merely, more often than not, a means to an end. For example, when I thought I might be meeting Ealge’s doctors and nurses, I dressed up a bit. As I left ot drive home, I dressed in jeans and sneakers for comfort. I can ssure you, I did not influence nayone for the Gospel in either outfit. 

    I think people get a bit carried away with “symbolism  as a witness fo Christ.” For example, I doubt anyone looks at complementarian marriages and says-“Oh yeah, now I get it. They are modeling the Godhead.” I am also reminded of FBC Dallas that spent $12 million on a fountain so that people would see Christ! yeah, right. They see a pretty fountain, that’s about all. 

  126. Kolya

    Pail was single. Jesus was single. That says it all for me. If churches ignore singles, they do so at their own peril. They will be ignoring a great part of the work of the Holy Spirit.

  127. Kassian’s 3d of 4 head/body drawings, in the context of Schaap and Jack and Dave Hyles, and the Wilsonion view of sex, caused a little light bulb to illuminate my brain. “Christ conquers and colonizes the church, the big man conquers and colonizes the little woman, and likewise the “church elder” conquers and colonizes the sheeple. So the pastor/leader/reverend having authority/submission style sex with his parishioners becomes an erotic necessity. But it’s all for their own good, because he stands in the place of his god. So it’s just like Baal-worshippers getting the privilege pf penetration by Baal himself when they “surrender” and get “planted” by his priests. And if any “mistakes” are made along the way, it’s all ok, cause good ol’ King David got away with it, doncha know…… Head hurting now… Proceeding to think on edifying things.

  128. Not too many years ago, churches warned against the world’s obsession with sex. Now, it seems churches are the most obsessed with sex. We’ve entered bizarroworld.

  129. Dave A A –

    You went further than I with attempting to analyze those drawings! Reading the article was enough nonesense for me. When I saw the drawings, I just sighed and moved on.

    Apparently this series she is writing is in to response to an email with questions from RHE. She is now on the fourth or fifth article and still has not answered the questions. She is apparently getting everyone who is reading ready for the amazing, eye-opening, life-changing answers that will make the Gospel so much easier for us peons to understand 😉 Get ready!!!

  130. For some like Jimmy S with his prostitutes, and Ted H with his personal trainer, maybe possibly the obsession with sex is primary (both still “pastoring”, of course). But for some, like these guys, the obsession with sex is only one of several sub-obsessions supporting the supreme obsession— POWER.

  131. Bridget– can’t wait! Holding breath. Wait– not…allowed…to read…teaching…from one so easily deceived.

  132. Lynn,

    I too grew up in a “flat” SBC church. I was in seminary in Ft Worth when the push towards a pastor led church came about. They used the excuses “Not Biblical”, ” the congregation needs leadership, they are not bright enough to lead themselves.”
    Needless to say, I was not ordained when I completed seminary. I went back teaching high school. ( The smartest thing ( other than marrying my wife) I have ever done.
    Like many of you, I have been bruised by a church, no longer attend.

  133. Jack Schaap has a slimy, snake like face and a smirk that says “I’m right and anyone who questions me is wrong. I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. You will get to God through Me.”

    Good grief he is so very arrogant. And a liar to boot. If he doesn’t change his ways, he will be in enormous trouble when he stands before God. Earthly fathers get angry at those who persecute and oppress their daughters – surely the Heavenly Father would be livid!

  134. MK has deleted the four comments on her post and closed the comments.

    http://www.girlsgonewise.com/sex-in-the-shadowlands/

    Interesting.

    I suspect that there have been few comments on the other posts because people were giving her time to finish the entire series. I really appreciated whoever Angie was over there. She was asking very good questions.

    Am I the only one who found MK’s insistence that mutuality and complementarianism go together rather confusing? I don’t ever remember hearing a comp embrace the term “mutuality” before her posts. I tried to go to CBMW to look up past articles that referred to mutuality, but that site is still basically stripped bare.

    Does anyone remember comps using the term mutuality elsewhere?

  135. Sallie:

    Wasn’t that an awesome diagram showing the man as the head and the woman as the heart! I’m being sarcastic. I can not believe that people believe this stuff.

  136. K.D.

    Sadly you and me and many others have been bruised by churches, and right now I’m not sure what will happen church wise for me.

  137. Hello Dee & Deb,
    Here is sermon giving by Jack Schaap on July 8,2012 concerning
    Teen Girl. THE WEB SITE-CHUCKLESTRAVELS.COM
    (WARNING GRAPHIC SPEECH)

  138. Sallie, Mary Kassian drives me nuts. For someone with a Ph.D. she is surprisingly blinkered. I imagine in “The Handmaid’s Tale” she would have been an Aunt.

  139. Sallie –

    I have never heard the two combined. I don’t know what she is trying to convey with that approach. Why did she delete the comments? They weren’t antagonistic. I wonder if she deleted the comments on the previous articles. What is their problem with letting comments stand anyway?

  140. Sallie – I wasn’t surprised that she didn’t publish my comment asking how and why she was equating the relationship between Christ and the church with sex, but the comments that had been published were all positive. Why delete those?

  141. Anyone who cannot tolerate scrutiny (i.e. Mary Kassian) is not a TRUE WOMAN.

    Rest assured, we will bring attention to Mary K’s most recent posts next week. We’re looking forward to publicizing her extra-biblical interpretations of Scripture.

  142. Sallie, this is not the first time she deleted all comments and closed the comment stream when she gets disagreement/ hard questions. I askad hard questions on both this thread and another some weeks ago. This time I also know of at least one person here, and one on another blog I visit, that showed her that she may rethink her view.

    But Kassian simply cannot accept learning from her fellow believers. Perhaps we should start commenting there under men’s names. If she cannot learn from Sallie, Angie or Marg (the commenter from elsewhere I know about), she may learn from Sam, Al, or Martin. After all, her group say Biblical womanhood is all about accepting input from worthy men…

  143. If you want to hear something really interesting, check out the podcast Karen posted today. She interviews Jon Zens re: the eternal subordination of the Son and how this new doctrine is being used to justify the eternal subordination of women. Their observation about the lack of this doctrine in the Danvers Statement was a real aha moment and makes perfect sense to me.

    http://www.thatmom.com/2012/08/04/part-nine-of-the-podcast-series-on-the-family-integrated-church-movement/

  144. “Anyone who cannot tolerate scrutiny (i.e. Mary Kassian) is not a TRUE WOMAN. ” – Deb

    I know you mean that sarcasticly, but that is another beef I have with comps – why untrue names like those that imply some women are not true women?
    Anyone who was born a woman is a true woman. She may be a lesbian or straight, a Christian or atheist or believer from another religion, submissive or dominating, chaste or a prostitute – but if she was born a woman, she is truly a woman!

  145. Another interesting thing about Kassian’s chart was that it included the Father and the Son as one of the authority/submission relationships. Now obviously that’s ESS, but it may actually be something else too – something a lot worse than ESS. I don’t know if anyone remembers, but back in the middle of the Wilson rape flap, I found this quote from Doug Wilson and posted it in the comments here:

    “The Father is the Lover, the Son is the Beloved, and the Holy Spirit is the love of each for the other.”

    Nick Gier, who found this odd quote, rightly accused Wilson of espousing a heretical view of the Trinity, and if I’m not mistaken, Kassian was defending Wilson (though not on the topic of the Trinity) in that “Sex in the Shadowlands” article.

    Now let’s lay aside for the moment the fact that comparing the Father and the Son to a husband and wife like she did, in an article with such obvious sexual connotations, is just plain creepy. The Father and the Son, on her chart, were fit together into a heart shape, so I would assume this is a love-based relationship (esp. given the sex topic). But does that mean that the Holy Spirit doesn’t have a loving relationship with the Father and/or the Son? And where is the Holy Spirit on her chart, anyway? I thought the Trinity had three members…

    …unless, of course, per the Wilson quote above, the Father and the Son love each other and the Holy Spirit is just the “good vibrations” that pass between them.

    Does this look suspicious to anyone else?

    Please, someone tell me I’m barking up the wrong tree. I really, really don’t want Mary Kassian to be espousing a heretical view of the Trinity on top of all the other problems in that article.

  146. To those interested, Google “Bruce Ware and theTrinity” if you would like teachings and books about ESS 🙂 Listen at your own risk.

    I first heard this teaching by Bruce Ware in 2003 or 2004.

  147. Schaap needs to reread the Genesis account again. When confronted by God, Adam said:

    The woman YOU put here with me —she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.

    In one short sentence, Adam managed to blame God and Even at the same time. God was obviously not impressed with Adam’s attitude and his failure to take responsibility for his own actions.

    Now Schaap is repeating Adam’s reply to God.

  148. Exactly right, David C. Today in church we were looking at Matthew 3 and repentance, and the minister specifically highlighted the Adam and Eve account as an example of how we always want to shift blame for our sins. Schaap sticks to that tried and true method of blaming someone else for his own faults.

  149. Adam, Schaap, and all men have one great weekness – women. I want to remind everyone about the story of David when he impregnated a women the killed her husband. How many wifes did solomon have?
    I think we should look at Schaaps salvation messages and see all the good he has done. How terrible would it be to stand at the great white throne jugement and have God look at you and say “thou pharisee”!

  150. Brandin,

    I hope you are a troll and don’t really believe what you just wrote. But just in case you do…

    Their weakness was NOT women. Their problem was SIN. Lust, lack of discernment, pride, etc. Do not try to shift the blame to women. The men SINNED. They made terrible choices. No woman stood there and held a gun to their head and made them do the things they did. The CHOSE to make those decision FOR THEMSELVES.

    I sincerely hope you are not married. If you are, please let us know the name of your wife so we can begin praying for her and you.

  151. Brandin G:

    You said:”Adam, Schaap, and all men have one great weekness – women. I want to remind everyone about the story of David when he impregnated a women the killed her husband. How many wifes did solomon have?
    I think we should look at Schaaps salvation messages and see all the good he has done. How terrible would it be to stand at the great white throne jugement and have God look at you and say “thou pharisee”!”

    Pure drivel, man.

    Please don’t worry about the pharisee part–Schapp aint no David!

  152. 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBC on Sat Aug 04, 2012 at 03:32 PM

    I’m in agreement with all of what you wrote…
    “the entire church came into being through him,”

    Was wondering….

    Did you have a specific reason for addressing it to AAL?

    Thanks

  153. Your story about your daughter and the other girls in class being set upon by the males in regard to the Adam and Eve myth is tragic. The fact that the teacher allowed these young men to verbally and emotionally abuse the young women makes him equally culpable. Then FURTHER abuse is done by the teacher by giving the girls each a rose with a pointless note that is NO apology. Do you know that the most common action that an abusive husband does after he beats his wife?? The next day he brings her roses!!! As if that justifies his abuse. The teacher did the same thing to your daughter! Disgusting! Vile! Abusive. Wake UP!!! I worked for several years as a staff member at a women’s shelter for women who were escaping domestic violence, so I know the patterns.

  154. I found out the video I linked above was shown at a youth convention which makes it even more disturbing.

    And what’s with the white jackets? Doctors wear white jackets. But pastors?

  155. Hester,
    Wish I could tell you you’re barking up the wrong tree, but I smell a rat up there.

  156. AAl

    Given the discussion prior to your post just before mine, with the “head” thing, I was suggesting an additional argument that aligns with yours, that Jesus is the shepherd, etc. He is also the source,creator, etc. of the church, and no one else should claim to be the head of any church or its “leader”.

    I highly value and agree with your comments!!!!

  157. 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBC on Sun Aug 05, 2012 at 12:36 PM

    Much agreement when you say…
    “that Jesus is **the shepherd,** etc. He is also the source,creator, etc. of the church, and no one else should claim to be the head of any church or its “leader”.”

    ————

    And John Zens also posted today – about – Ousted Pastor Jack Schaap…
    And – “The nightmare of the Pastoral Institution.”

    http://www.searchingtogether.org/blog/?p=304#comments

    —————-

    Seems others – With “Titles” – are also questioning this practice.

    Ed Stetzer – At LifeWay – Bloggrd this – Tuesday July 17, 2012 – Another interesting read.

    “Laypeople and the Mission of God,”
    part 1 — Killing the Clergy-Laity Caste System

    http://www.edstetzer.com/2012/07/laypeople-and-the-mission-of-g.html#comments

    What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
    What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.

    Don’t have too much fun… 😉

  158. 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBC on Sun Aug 05, 2012 at 12:36 PM

    Much agreement when you say…
    “that Jesus is **the shepherd,** etc. He is also the source,creator, etc. of the church, and no one else should claim to be the head of any church or its “leader”.”

    ————

    And John Zens also posted today – about – Ousted Pastor Jack Schaap…
    And – “The nightmare of the Pastoral Institution.”

    http://www.searchingtogether.org/blog/?p=304#comments

  159. Seems others – With “Titles” – are also questioning this practice.

    Ed Stetzer – At LifeWay – Bloggrd this – Tuesday July 17, 2012 – Another interesting read.

    “Laypeople and the Mission of God,”
    part 1 — Killing the Clergy-Laity Caste System

    http://www.edstetzer.com/2012/07/laypeople-and-the-mission-of-g.html#comments

    What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
    What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.

    Don’t have too much fun… 😉

  160. Deb, Sallie, & others here who have observed that Kassian cannot tolerate any manner of dialogue or critique with regard to her ideology. Take heart, this is a good sign because they are losing this war of ideas. They will fizzle out because there’s just too much push-back out here in the blogosphere. Over time, the likelihood is high that they will just retreat into their own closed enclaves with only a small number of captives who still swallow their twaddle.

  161. This is not just a single unfortunate incident, but merely the latest manifestation of a church culture cultivated over decades. The link below catalogues it comprehensively in all of its sordid particulars. This is not a so-called “liberal media” hit piece, but rather an investigation undertaken by one of Hyles’ fellow fundamentalists, who was at first incredulous, then appalled and dismayed at what he found.

    http://www.biblicalevangelist.org/jack_hyles_chapter3.php

  162. I think some of you were a bit hard on Brandin. I think what he meant to say was that these men had a weakness for women in the sense that they succumbed to temptation in this area, not because of the women themselves (the Biblical account gives no suggestion that Bathsheba was leading David on, for example) but because they gave way to their own lusts. Even if Solomon’s interest in women was as much aesthetic as sexual, the fact is that he gave way because of it – having previously disregarded the exhortation in Deuteronomy not to accumulate many wives (forget the exact passage). Other men may have weaknesses with greed and covetousness, but the fault isn’t with the money itself but their own lust for it.

    Having said that, I caught up on the Jack Hyles stuff and the buzz re Hyles-Anderson college. “Strange” would be a very charitable way of putting it, I fear.

  163. KKSt.John,

    I guess I didn’t make it clear that the guys, not the teacher, gave the roses and note.

    I do get your point.

  164. Kolya – If I misrepresented what he said, I will be more than willing to apologize. However, given the context of Schaap’s view of women, the church’s enthusiastic response, and the fact that Brandin said ALL men have a weakness – women… I’m not sure I did. But I am more than willing to apologize if he comes back and says I misrepresented what he was saying or he wants to clarify what he meant. 🙂

  165. Deb, I hope you’re going to include Mary Kassian’s remarks about Slutwalk on her blog in April. Without respect to what anyone things about that particular movement, it is clear that Ms. Kassian has no understanding of rape and her backpedaling in the comments didn’t help.

  166. I thought Brandin kinda implied that men were “victims” of their weakness and it wasn’t unusual because “after all” look at so and so. Sounded like the “boys will be boys” concept to me.

  167. Dee – The first two comments were by the same woman. She pointed out that MK hadn’t really answer RHE’s questions and she asked a couple of related questions (that I don’t remember other than they were pointed but respectful). Then she left a follow-up comment that she just realized that MK was writing a series and that she was probably going to respond to those questions later.

    I believe the third comment was a thank you type comment and MK responded.

    Pretty innocuous overall.

  168. Chris C

    I read Scizophrenic Christiantiy by Jeri Masi and was stunned by the history of the IFB and its leaders in the area of morality. These guys preach immorality at the drop of the hat. I wonder if that might be because they are personally acquainted with immorality?

  169. Many years ago we attended a Hyles-Anderson type of church plant. The pastor had come to or town as an out of college preacher boy to help start the church. He was a very nice man who was right out of the mold. There were often special meetings where preachers were brought…big IFC names like Joe Boyd, Bob Gray, etc. The men screamed and did theatrics and the bus people “got saved.”. But what amazed us was how elementary and shallow everything remained.

    After we stood it or about a year, (we were still in our patriarchy phase at this point), we heard that the youth pastor had abused several high school girls and I on’t know if he spent time in jail or not but he was never seen or heard from again. After that I talked with some pastors from Indiana who were trying o get Jack Hyles removed from his church because of all the sexual scandal. They said that the number of HA grad preacher boys who sexually abused teen girls was rampant. I have asked myself ever since why this is within these circles. What do you all think?

  170. Mot,

    I have not a clue what I will do either church wise. Now that I have retired from teaching I have a once a week radio gig, and we are surprised at the number of people who have been used and abused by their church…..There are so many people out there searching…

  171. thatmom writes

    They said that the number of HA grad preacher boys who sexually abused teen girls was rampant. I have asked myself ever since why this is within these circles. What do you all think?

    Read the article linked in my post above — or as much of it as you can stomach. It details how a culture has been fostered at HAC, starting with “Boopsie Woopsie” himself, Hyles, that encourages this sort of behavior and covers it up when it’s exposed.

  172. I read about half of the article Chris C linked to about Hyles & company. For me, it was a sad example, but the thought that went through my head was, “eightieth verse – same as the first.”

    This culture was/is not unique to the Hammond campus nor is it unique to a single denomination. I have watched it play out in different churches I attended and have read so many accounts of similar situations. It really does cause me to have little to no hope for the existence of a really healthy church. I have yet to find one (and yes, I have looked).

    Sadly, it also reinforces the fear that most men, given any authority, will use it to conquer. To the male readers, I understand that feels unfair – I wish my experience informed me differently.

  173. Jeanette, have you ever heard of the “Prison Experiment” conducted years ago at Stanford University? Or the “Blue Eyes/Brown Eyes” experiment by a 3rd or 4th grade teacher years ago? The results of both confirm your findings. Look them up if you have time; they are fascinating. The Prison Experiment had to be cut short because the students given the role of “guards” began to believe they had authority over their peers who were “prisoners” and abused them horribly.

    Its true that power corrupts…and absolute power corrupts absolutely in many cases.

  174. Forgot to add that one of the results of the Blue Eyes/Brown Eyes experiment was that those who were told that they had no privileges because they had blue (or brown) eyes actually had personality changes and their grades began to suffer.

  175. dee – As thatmom and Sallie said there were a few questions, but they were polite. The comments were basically ‘thanks for doing this series, will you answer XYZ in your future posts?’

  176. Victorious-

    Thanks. Yes, I have heard of those experiments. They are chilling and go to the heart of why people will cover up for and continue to ‘believe in’ their vaunted leaders.

    My most recent experience was with a small group in the last 12 months. It started out with the expressed purpose of being a safe place for those who were spiritually abused to come and find fellowship. The first few weeks were really good….,but it didn’t take long, even among these survivors of abuse, to begin dividing themselves into camps and trying to take control. It got ugly in a hurry and I am frustrated with myself that I put myself in a position to be hurt…again. To be honest, I can’t even watch eChurch. I want that safe place to just be, but I think. maybe, it doesn’t exist.

  177. Blue eyes/brown eyes, Stanford Prison Experiment, and the Milgram Experiment are all excellent and disturbing examples of how authority and obedience can work.

  178. Oh, the eChurch is a safe place…crossing my heart… 🙂 Just you worshipping with awesome hymns and Pastor Wade preaching a message that’s truly inspiring and uplifting.

    I’m a regular and it’s my very favorite time on Sunday mornings. Perhaps some day when you’re feeling especially courageous, you’ll give it a try.

  179. Read the article linked in my post above — or as much of it as you can stomach. It details how a culture has been fostered at HAC, starting with “Boopsie Woopsie” himself, Hyles, that encourages this sort of behavior and covers it up when it’s exposed. — Christ C

    When I read “Boopsie Woopsie” and his teen groupies, I thought of Scientology.

    “Boopsie Woopsie” and his pseudo-harem of teen girls reminds me of L Ron Hubbard and his bikini-clad “Flag Assistants” during the Sea Org phase of Scientology, when Elron was keeping out of US jurisdiction by roaming the world on the Scientology-owned cruise ship Apollo, “Clearing the Planet”. Elron, AKA “The Commodore”, was always attended — waited on hand and foot — by bikini-clad teens.

  180. Oh.my.word. I can’t even fathom that after one experience with this “pastor”, that people come back. “How to Polish a Shaft” is the title. — Julie Anne

    I could not have come up with a more “Freudian” title, given the context.

  181. Jack Schaap has a slimy, snake like face and a smirk that says “I’m right and anyone who questions me is wrong. I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. You will get to God through Me.” — Anne from England

    Not much of a stretch between that and “*I* AM GOD!!!!!”, is there?

  182. Hyles would call his harem of teen girls “Hyles Angels.” At Christmas he would put on a Santa’s hat and the girls would come sit on his lap and tell him their secret wishes, and he would give them gifts. He pastored FBC until his death in 2001. In spite of all the scandles and accusations, he died a hero to his followers. One of the many memorials dedicated to Hyles is a two story mural painted on the side of the old church building in Hammond. It is a shrine of sorts. http://freesundays.org/?p=540

    I don’t think most people understand how sick this place really is.

  183. Thanks, Chris C. I hd read/ heard much of this through the years. I am just in awe of the fact that this stuff doesn’t matter to so many people. It’s like the Gothard stuff that has been overlooked for so long. With all the Christian celebrity obsessions out there it sure makes you wonder about all the stuff we don’t know!

  184. Pingback: Law or Grace for Jack Schaap?

  185. This is what happens when men/women follow a MAN. God should be followed. If it wasn’t so pathetic I would laugh at the statement Mr. Schaap made about the “word” getting out in the airwaves. What scripture is getting out now? Thou shalt not commit Adultery. Hello. Following a MAN is dead wrong. Read your bible. This bashing of woman is so “Hyles/Anderson”. Anyone who has been in an Ind. Bap. Church for long will know that. That and easy ‘beliveism’. Dumb stuff.

    Also, maybe if Adam had LOVED his wife like he should have and protected what GOD had GIVEN him, he wouldn’t have allowed her near the danger or she maybe would have even asked his opinion. I value my husband and his opinion. He doesn’t ‘lord’ over me. He leads and loves. I really hope that the Christian Faith and Ind. Bap. especially, can heal from all the wrong done by this church and it’s 2 leaders.

  186. Dee, I know you were not asking me, but here is what I know of the Kassian thread:
    There were 4 polite comments published. One was of the “thank you, that is wonderful” sort. Another asked questions very politely, a third was the polite question asker saying that she see that another post on the topic is coming, and assuming it would contain answers. One was from Kassian herself.

    From this thread, I know of more than one commenter whose comments was sent, like mine, directly to moderation, and which never appeared.

    Marg, whom I know from another forum and whose website is http://newlife.id.au/ , sent this comment which was not published:
    …On the left hand side it says, “Head (Father) of the house”. There is no Scripture which says that the father is the head of the house. None.

    Ephesians 5:23 says that husband is the head of the wife. It doesn’t say that the husband is the head of the household; it doesn’t even say that the husband, or father, is the head of the family. The head-body metaphor is one of unity, as has been pointed out – a profound unity that uniquely applies to husbands and wives, and not to fathers and households, etc.

    I think we need to be careful that we don’t let an English understanding of “head” confuse what is being said in the Greek. (I have yet to see kephalē-head mean “leader” or “ruler” in original, untranslated Classical and Koinē Greek.)

    Also, the New Testament does not say that elders are the kephalē-head of the church community. Jesus Christ is the head of his Church. There is a unique and profound unity between Christ and the Church.

    I really think we need to keep to Scriptures when we use the word “head” metaphorically as there is a danger that we will lose the impact of the head-body metaphor if we start applying it in non-biblical ways to fathers, elders or households, etc.

    … and I sent this one, which was also not published:

    Mary, where does the Bible say the ultimate goal of sex is to tell the truth about God? We should be careful about claiming to speak for God, when He was silent. It seems to me (correct me if I am wrong) that the “men leaving parents, cleaving to wife, become one flesh” verses, has a “therefore” in it – and the “therefore”(the reason for them to become one) is not “so the message of unity between us and God can be pictured.”
    And I explained the gospel to many 6- and 7- year olds in my life who have no idea of marriage and sex, so I can honestly tell you: People who don’t understand sex and marriage do not have a tough time to understand the gospel. Statistically, very few people come to God after marriage, and unmarried people like me can understand the gospel, so sex and marriage is not needed to understand the gospel.
    And to whom should sex tell the story of God? To the Christian husband and wife who already understand the gospel, or to the world?
    If to the world, should we get the message to them by:
    a) Telling them what to do in their intimate lives while they are unbelievers, so they can understand the Christian message from it, or
    b) by making DVDs of Christian couples in the bedroom, so it can tell the story to them?
    If marriage and sex is the greatest way to remember these things, why did he not make an equally powerful picture for those who stay single (something God finds good!) and children?
    If sex stands for the intimacy between us and Jesus and, by the diagram, us and church elders, the correct symbol for that would not be sleeping with only one person. Because Jesus and church elders are not the same. The correct symbol would be sleeping with A who represents Jesus and B who represents the church elders, but B should also sleep with A.

    I know that when Kassian closed comments before – she also did it on another thread where I asked her about the gender role of single women – she also deleted the already-there comments. Dee, I hope this helps.

  187. Looking at the how to polish a shaft video is beyond belief – this is a supposed preacher mimicking masturbation in the pulpit, obviously deliberately, and for well over a minute. The posted video is equally as vile – sexism beyond parody.

    Given this why the heck didn’t somebody do something earlier??!?

  188. “Given this why the heck didn’t somebody do something earlier??!?”

    Because they believe above all else: Touch not the Lord’s anointed.

    See every discussion on here and elsewhere about cults and cult-ish behavior that explain why people stay in groups like this and remain silent.

    If I were a betting woman I would bet everything I have that if we hadn’t just gone through the Penn State thing, this situation with Schaap would not have seen the light of day. Penn State was a major game changer in this country.

  189. Retha –

    What a shame your and Retha’s comments weren’t posted on Mary’s blog. Thank you for posting them here.

  190. Sallie, I completely agree. The Penn State fiasco has opened the door for a lot more info to come out in a lot of circumstances.

    We saw a situation like this a year or so ago in our own town and it went to trial a week or two after the whole Tina Anderson story was on TV. I am convinced it has a lot to do with the jury’s decision.

  191. Reyna I do appreciate your comments to Mary- they were excellent. 🙂 This is my tiff with how many take scripture in the Western culture- we tend to take ONE subject such as this issue with sex and read into it or make a huge deal over it, instead of looking at the whole context of scripture. We will then form OUR own interpretation instead of studying it and praying that the Holy Spirit gives us the guidance through His Word. A lot of what shapes our belief in certain aspects of Scripture is our own circumstances, how we grew up, or what we have learned along the way in our formative years (such as through school and peers) instead of taking Scripture and asking God what He would like us to
    know.

    Sallie, I agree that the Penn State issue is having reverberating effects on the rest of the country. I certainly hope that we will all continue speak out loud about this child abuse.

  192. Retha,

    I saw those four comments on Mary K’s post. The more these Calvinistas ignore us, the more vocal we will be. And that’s a promise!

  193. Regarding Hyles, Hyles Jr., Schaap, et. al., the Letter of Jude says it best:

    “For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ…These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever…These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage…”

    “But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. And have mercy on those who doubt; save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.”

  194. Some of you may have missed the July 8, 2012 sermon by Schaap (had to have been preached while he was in the very process of making his mistakes, don’t you think?)
    http://chucklestravels.com/2012/07/31/schaap-resigns-sin/
    Thanks H&M for that one. Nothing for getting “the other side of the story” like the other side’s own words just one month ago.
    Main point of the sermon, in my words, “Mom and Dad, you’re doing a lousy job raising your teenagers. Just give them to ME!”
    One interesting bit of advice: Check out your boy’s text messages. What’s he got in there? Apparently one deacon took pastor’s advice too literally.

  195. oops, should have read comments before posting that video. Someone beat me to it. The guy is a creep and so many people think he is credible? Amazing. He is a showman.

  196. One of the many memorials dedicated to Hyles is a two story mural painted on the side of the old church building in Hammond. It is a shrine of sorts. http://freesundays.org/?p=540 — Former Fundie

    Just like the giant pictures of Comrade Dear Leader (or has it always been Comrade Beloved Leader?) on the sides of every aparment block in Pyongyang.

    Looking at the how to polish a shaft video is beyond belief – this is a supposed preacher mimicking masturbation in the pulpit, obviously deliberately, and for well over a minute. — Richard

    Well, we now know he was polishing his shaft outside the pulpit, too.

    And this isn’t just “being clueless” like Ray Comfort’s banana echoing The Gong Show‘s infamous “Popsicle Twins”. This guy’s bragging about his Alpha Male sexual prowess, polishing his offering to Priapus in the pulpit.

    Given this why the heck didn’t somebody do something earlier??!? — Richard

    Because “I’m Right and anyone who questions me is Wrong. I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. You will get to God through Me.” GOD HATH SAID! TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED! DO MY PROPHET NO HARM! GOD HATH SAID!

  197. Main point of the sermon, in my words, “Mom and Dad, you’re doing a lousy job raising your teenagers. Just give them to ME!” — Dave A A

    So they can polish his shaft?

  198. Oh.my.word. I can’t even fathom that after one experience with this “pastor”, that people come back. “How to Polish a Shaft” is the title. — Julie Anne

    “I thought I had a most morbid imagination, as good as any man’s. But it appears I have not.” — Aliester “Creepy” Crowley, commenting on the occult antics of Jack Parsons and L Ron Hubbard.

  199. Headless asked, “(or has it always been Comrade Beloved Leader?)”
    It’s always been  Eternal President Comrade Great Leader, for whom Beloved Leader was just filling in after GL “fell, that he might go to his own place”. Likewise the current Scout Leader is only representing Grandpa Great Leader, still Eternal President since 1912.
    Likewise, I wonder, does Jack Hyles have a grandson who can now take over as earthly proxy of Brother Great Leader in Hammond? 
    The new leader will not likely be a son of of Hyles’ other daughter, Linda Murphrey, who courageously has escaped to truth and freedom in the U. S. Of A. Thanks to Chuckles for this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJsOlLqBEyo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

  200. Tikatu

    We did a review of the same book, Schizophrenic Christianity http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/04/18/is-the-independent-fundamentalist-baptist-church-any-different-than-the-southern-baptist-convention-and-sovereign-grace-ministries/

  201. Muff Potter,

    You said “I’m sure that at his core, your hubby is a kind and wonderful man.”

    You are absolutely right. Thank you so much for graciously assuming the best of him. I am very at peace about my situation and am just praying to be wise in my timing, gracious with my words, able to avoid shutting down at the first hint of conflict (if any) like I usually do, and open to his input. He is very reasonable. 🙂 I think it will go well.

  202. Interesting video. The three things that have been the most important to me through the process of coming out of the abuse are 1) freedom, 2) truth and 3) courage. Yeah. I think anyone who has walked it will agree.

  203. Dave AA and Anon 1 – thanks for posting that link to Linda Murphrey’s TED talk. I admire her ability to beat the bondage, recover, lead a fulfilling life and seek to help others.

  204. PLEASE Do NOT put all Independent Baptist in one box!! That’s why they’re called “Independent”. They did not want rulership from ANY convention and many have long broken away from the “hyles-Anderson” affiliation/influence.
    As for the gender roles and God comments of Mary K’ one does not have to be a calvinist to understand that. It was to help keep a peaceful home and set as an example in other areas in our lives (single or married) ie: Can you imagine having 2 bosses at your job? My husband still takes my advice the way David listened to Abigail (OT) And we have plenty of FEMALE soloists at our church for music.
    Google on a faithful pastor from San Diego, who speaks the truth in LOVE and has taught my husband how to be a caring man with integrity. We could’ve been divorced by now and may not have survived raising 9 children without the wisdom taught straight from God’s Word.
    We celebrate Christmas and Easter. And now reside in a sate where the Governor is a FEmale of Indian descent! 🙂
    AND PLEASE don’t compare us to muslims!!!! We belive in “covering” our thighs and cleavage out of being considerate of others (A Christ-like principle, rt?) but don’t kick people out the door for doing so. I did not grow up in a Cristian home but back 25 years ago, my mom NEVER let me go to school with pantyline showing pants (just loose fitting) or belly-button or cleavage exposing outfits. Even certain shoes she called “harloty” lol- its not old-fashioned, just wisdom. She even taught me to wear a slip under a dress!! They still teach us this in professional world. Again, we love all and none are perfect.

  205. Abbilynn

    I would like you to go back over your comment and think about it . If you are attempting to get people to see your point of view, you need to be careful. For example, I am a deeply devoted Christian and have been married for over 30 years. How could such a thing happen,given my point of view? 

    Also, before you make a simplistic statement such as the overused “two bosses”canard, think more deeply. Most everyone who comments here have gone far beyond such simplicity. Do you not think that others have thought your same thoughts and have rejected them? You need to do some reading. Seek first to understand before you lecture.

    As for harlot shoes, well, you should see my shoes. They are absolutely adorable, one pair has sparkly sequins. Are sparkly sequin shoes “harlot shoes? And just to let you know, Walmart has panties that are guaranteed not to show panty lines. That should relieve our readers. It’s just me, doing my best to provide fasion tips in an economical manner.

     

  206. Abbilynn, to compare a marriage between two believers to an organization with a boss and employee is a most distorted view of the way scripture conveys relationships. A marriage consists of two believers who are one in their purpose, beliefs (in God), and who defer to one another with one not thinking more highly of himself. Both are to love one another in the way Christ loves us. Just as Jesus came, not to be served, but to serve, so it is with partners; they walk together expressing individual gifts as well as the fruit of love, joy, peace, kindness and patience toward one another.

    This is a very different picture than that of a boss/employee relationship.

  207. Hi Abbilynn,
    One little point. You said, “My husband still takes my advice the way David listened to Abigail”.
    She certainly recognized him as the rightful Boss (future king) and was submissive and respectful in her approach. However, he was NOT her husband at the time. Her husband was the man whose fool head she was trying to keep attached to his shoulders. And it’s highly doubtful Abigail in any way shape or form sought or got Boss Nabal’s OK for her escapade.
    A better example might be Bathsheba in I Kings 1, when she was at least one of David’s wives.

  208. Has someone posted the link to the youtube video of Cindy Schaap’s sister?

    http://youtu.be/eJsOlLqBEyo

    The sexual shenanigans does not surprise me one bit. Sometimes when I hear people like Schaap and Driscoll preach, I pray that the TRUTH would come to light. When they can have that kind of attitude and say the things they do about and to women and girls, there are ugly secrets in the closet…

    IME submission teachings ENABLE sexual shenanigans. (30 year marriage to former Christian college prof with closet porn habit which devolved to other serious moral lapses…)

  209. To Deeon- I wasn’t meaning to lecture and for lack of time, was just throwing a couple of thought to ponder. I agree with Victorious- The scripture cleary teaches how we ought to treat eachother and how to think of ourselves.

    As for the harlot shoes, I’m talking about the kind only pole dancers wore back THEN. Tall etc., just paints a dirty picture for most who-sad-to-say was exposed to some of the sexy imigary as a child. The panty lines- that’s my point- that some don’t try to find the “clear look u can find at Walmart. Those who are Christian in heart understand what I mean. You wouldn’t want to be satnding at church and some shapely gal is flaunty herself to be the center of attention. We should be there to worship God, rt? Not to look sexy but modest as not to draw attention to ourselves. That goes for men too. Men ought to not try to flaunt his muscles… just saying, whatever one would do if they were trying to pick-up someone at a danceclub or beach- should not be done at church if we’re not thinking of ourselves more highly than we ought.

    Im saying this in a sincere heart. I was in the Navy- I know what tempted some while underway. I wasn’t a christian back then, and yet, out of respect for marriage (my mom was abandoned by my dad for a younger seductive lady) I made sure that while working around them, I didn’t perfume, too much make-up or tight uniform (some said I was a “hard body” LOL I never thought I was).
    As we know this has been happening in other denominations (Catholic) and in politics. Former Gov. Mark Sandford. So we can’t say that being a straight Christian earrly in life will lead to sexual perversion later, nor that all IFB’s have that view of woman taught in their churches. I’ve been in MANY throughout the country. While stationed in San Diego, THANKFULLY a sincere church with a humble pastor reached out to us. They had 8 small children now grown and his wife would invite us ladies over for snack- games, and prayer and you would easily see that they barely touched the churches money. Small home, beat-up Chevy van. He was not of the H/A- he graduated from a small churh Bible college out of Beaufort and always told folks to NEVER put him on a pedestal for he is not perfect
    but strives to be his best for God by staying i His Word.
    ALL that to say this, don’t give up searching for a good church home, there is NO perfect church since they’re full of people and we go to learn more and serve others, etc., ANd watch and listen for while (IFB’s aren’t the ONLY ones who preachy patriarchily – or talk down to women and insult parents… The adversary wants us to give up and I’m keeping my armor ON! P.S. We’ve always roled our eyes when hearign of a H/A grad or meeting- but I have to say- there are still some diamonds in the rough out there.

  210. Just found this blog. I’m a former fundamentalist with similar stories to many printed here.
    I’ll never forget the blow to my earnest, believing 8-year-old heart when a visiting preacher thundered from the pulpit, “I can prove from the Bible that there will be no women in heaven!” Then he proceeded to quote from Revelation the passage that said there would be silence in heaven for half-an-hour.
    I didn’t understand the reference, only the stabbing fear that no matter what, I had no chance of entering heaven because I was a girl.
    Nobody objected; no one contradicted him.
    Thanks for listening. I’m fine now and there is no question in my mind about my worthiness or worth as a female.

  211. Angelyn – that is a horrific thing for a pastor to say, sorry you had to hear that. I’m glad you have gotten past that and know your worth as a woman and that God adores you.

  212. I think it is shameful on us christians to celebrate the downfall of another christian instead of feeling sorry and pray for the fallen brother.

  213. Gome

    Celebrate? Huh? Where? One other thing, you did not mention the victim, a violation of our prime directive. Is there a reason that you just focused on one part of this “relationship?” So, I guess you are far more interested in the abuser. What about the young teen?