Mahaney Has No Clothes! Guest Post by Todd Wilhelm

“We have stood beside our friend, C. J. Mahaney, and we can speak to his personal integrity. We can make no judgment as to the truthfulness of the horrifying charges of sexual abuse made against some individuals who have been connected, in some way, to Sovereign Grace Ministries and its churches…"

T4G’s Original Statement of Support for Mahaney (link)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Emperor_Clothes_01.jpgEmperor Clothes

The long awaited trial of Nate Morales began on Monday in Rockville, Maryland, with closing arguments taking place earlier today.  The jury began deliberating in the afternoon and will resume tomorrow morning.  Twitter is abuzz with commentary related to the trial, and the local news media is following the story closely.  There is also much discussion in the blogosphere about what has come to light during the court proceedings.  We plan to focus on the trial and hopefully the jury's verdict on Friday.

In the meantime, we just came across an excellent post written by our blogging buddy, Todd Wilhelm.  Todd is an American who is living in Dubai.  Prior to moving to the United Arab Emirates, Todd had been a member of an SGM affiliated church in the United States, and he was very familiar with C.J. Mahaney. 

When he and his family moved to Dubai, they joined a 9 Marks affiliated church. To make a long story short, leaders at the church approached Todd about handling the book ministry (err, business).  Todd, who is a voracious reader, made it clear to the leadership that he could not in good conscience recommend any of C.J. Mahaney's books.  This was definitely not to the liking of church leaders.  Todd got in touch with us over a year ago to share his frustrating experience.  Here is an excerpt from a previous post My, My Dubai… that explains what happened. 

On March 11, 2013, TWW published Exit Strategies by CJ Mahaney and Heroic Protesters at a 9 Marks Church Overseas. Here is a quick synopsis of Todd Wilhelm's story. He was a member of an SGM church in the United States. Due to his business, he was sent to Dubai, which is a city within the United Arab Emirates. There, he joined a 9 Marks church, UCCD. If you haven't yet discovered Todd's comments, you may not be aware of his deep knowledge of Scripture and church history. He is also very humorous and self-deprecating. He once told us that his choice of churches, first  SGM, and then 9 Marks, demonstrates a decided lack of discernment. :)

Todd was being considered for the position of deacon at UCCD. Part of his job would be to oversee the bookstore. Over the years, due to his former involvement and continued interest, Todd had become deeply concerned about SGM and its former leader, CJ Mahaney. Todd takes a strong stand on child sex abuse and was dismayed by the stories that he had read on SGM Survivors. You can read about his concerns on the post. He informed UCCD that he could not oversee the UCCD bookstore because it sold a number of books by CJ Mahaney. This statement led to great discomfort since Mark Dever, the head of 9 Marks, and pastor of Capital HIll Baptist Church, is a BFF and ardent supporter of Mahaney link. Tood said:

Unfortunately I don’t think most Christians in Dubai are aware of the Mahaney scandal, much less Piper and Dever’s support of Mahaney.  If they were I believe these good people would be questioning the wisdom of inviting Piper and Dever to speak at their church.  

I resigned my membership on March 6th from the United Christian Church of Dubai because my church leadership refused to quit promoting Mahaney’s books.  To date they have refused to act on my letter, so I am technically still a member.  John Folmar, the Senior Pastor of UCCD, is a gifted speaker and good friend of Mark Dever’s, having formerly served on staff with him at Capitol Hill Baptist Church. It appears he has no concerns over Piper and Dever’s public support of C.J. Mahaney as he has arranged for them to speak at his church in Dubai.  Piper and Dever will be returning the favor by having John Folmar speak at their conferences.

Todd made the difficult decision to leave UCCD. The church refused to remove him from their membership. You see, according to the legal contract (oops-membership covenant), members can't leave until they become members of another church.

Folks: let this serve as a warning to you! Beware of these contracts in the hands of authoritarian churches. This very incident proves the authoritarian nature of 9 Marks churches and leadership. Can you imagine any pastor who would not let a man, who deeply disagrees with the ethics or trajectory of a church, leave? Such hubris is dangerous.

Although Todd could have become a member of another church, he stood firm on the principle of the matter. After 6 months of writing letters, being defriended, having his emails ignored and seeing his name, week after week, appear on the membership rolls, Todd finally prevailed. You can read Movin On at his awesome blog, Thou Art the Man.

Todd Wilhelm has written an excellent post about C.J. Mahaney and his colleagues, and we have been given permission to share it with our readers.  Thanks, Todd, for your hard work in putting this information together!


Mahaney Has No Clothes! (link)

By:  Todd Wilhelm

“But the Emperor has nothing at all on!” said a little child. “Listen to the voice of innocence!” exclaimed the father; and what the child had said was whispered from one to another. “But he has nothing on!” at last cried all the people. The Emperor was vexed, for he knew that the people were right; but he thought, “The procession must go on now!” And the lords of the bedchamber took greater pains than ever to appear holding up a train, although, in reality, there was no train to hold.

-Hans Christian Andersen

1 Maheny t4g2

(Audio of Bill O'Neal here)

1mohler

Al Mohler praising C.J. Mahaney  (Audio here)

10 Fast Facts Regarding Grant Layman & the Nate Morales Sex Abuse Trial  via Brent Detwiler

1) Grant followed C.J.’s evil counsel to cover up.  (Grant Layman is the brother in-law of C.J. Mahaney and until recently a pastor at Covenant Life Church.)
2) Morales’ crimes were never reported to police by C.J., Grant or other CLC pastors who knew.
3) Parents and youth at Covenant Life Church were not alerted to the predatory and homosexual activity of Morales.
4) The school administration at Montgomery County Christian Academy where Morales taught and groomed victims was never told about his abuses by CLC leaders.
5) Other youth were abused as a result of all these criminal delinquencies.
6) Grant lied to detectives in order to conceal the conspiracy.
7) CLC and SGM leaders have denied all wrong doing.
8) Joshua Harris just commended Grant on Feb 23 for his personal integrity and ending his pastoral service well.  
9) C.J., Joshua, Grant and other pastors at CLC have covered up the pedophilic actions of other sex abusers with multiple victims at CLC.
10) The above have used a cadre of high priced lawyers and law firms to block every attempt to bring them and abusers to justice.

1Nate Morales
 
 
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/the-criminal-trial-of-nathaniel-morales-report-on-day-1-2.html

 

“I’m attending the entire trial this week. Here’s a brief report from Monday and Tuesday.

Eight counts of sex abuse and sex offense by Nathaniel “Nate” Morales were scheduled to be tried this week in Montgomery County Circuit Court in Maryland with Judge Terrence J. McGann presiding. Three of those counts were postponed because Daniel Bates, one of the victims, had a recent “serious medical procedure” according to the Judge and could not participate. Assistant States Attorney Jessica Hall indicated the State would retry Morales on those counts at a later date.

Most of Monday dealt with the selection of 12 jurors with 2 alternates. Around 2:00 PM Assistant State’s Attorney Hall and Defense Attorney Drew made their opening arguments.

Hall argued that Morales was a respected leader in Covenant Life Church who held a position of trust and authority with access to children that he could groom to be victims. She noted that Morales was outgoing, gregarious, esteemed and trusted. Also that he was in the worship group and functioned as the unofficial youth director.

She also outlined the crimes committed against Samuel Bates, Jeremy Cook and Brian Wolohan by Morales. Each time she ended her individual summaries by saying the victims or parents went to the CLC pastors and the pastors “covered up” and “ignored the heinous crimes that had been done” to these boys.

Defense Attorney Drew concerned himself with dates and times and the fact that no one reported any of these crimes to the police until Samuel Bates contacted Detective Sally Magee in October 2009. He did not seek to disprove, challenge or undermined any of the allegations against Morales.

The first witness called to stand was Samuel’s and Daniel’s mother, Grace Charlene Bates. Of greatest importance, she testified they went to Grant Layman in 1992 and told him about the sexual abuse of Samuel. This fact was not disputed by the Defense. Grant was a pastor at Covenant Life Church. C.J. Mahaney was the senior pastor.

Samuel Bates was called to the stand next. He described the terrible abuses he suffered at the hands of Morales for the jury. He explained he didn’t initially tell others because of shock, shame, confusion and embarrassment. He tried to pretend it never happen. He tried to forget it ever happen. He also fought off Morales on occasions even punching him in the face.

In 1992 he told his parents, Scott and Charlene Bates about then abuse. Afterward, they went to Grant Layman and told him about the abuse. None of this was contested by the Defense Attorney Drew under cross examination. Upon completion, the court was adjoined on Monday.

Court resumed on Tuesday at 9:30 AM.

Victim Brian Wolohan was the first one called to the stand. He too described for the jury the horrors he suffered at the hand of Morales. He too stopped Morales on occasions by yelling at him, pushing him away, telling him to leave, or stating he did not want this. He told of Morales coercing him to comply with the abuse by saying he (Morales) would otherwise have to go the men’s room at the local Mall, have random sex and then die of AIDS.

Brian told an older adult, Bob Rosencrantz about Morales’ abuse in late 1991 or early 1992. Bob then told his parents, Dick and Marsha Wolohan. Dick went to one of the pastors at Covenant Life Church to tell them about the alleged abuse. He could not remember which pastor specifically. This led to a meeting with Morales in a park behind the Wolohan house with Dick and Grant Layman or Robin Boisvert. Dick couldn’t remember which one. Morales denied the sexual abuse of Brian at this time.

Dick Wolohan took the stand next. Morales went to Teen Challenge in 1992 for alcohol abuse and homosexuality. Teen Challenge was not told about his sexual abuse of children. Dick, Brian and Kevin Wolohan went to visit Morales in the summer of 1992. During this time, Morales confessed to Dick that he had sexually abused Brian Wolohan. Defense Attorney Drew did not dispute this confession.

Pamela Plaisted was next. She was engaged to Morales for a short time while the sexual abuse of these boys was transpiring. She testified that people were “drawn to Nate like a magnet” because of his charismatic personality. She also thought it odd that Morales wanted to do sleep overs with boys while they were engaged.

Grant Layman was sworn in next. Under oath he told the jury he did not report the crimes told him by Scott and Charlene Bates 1992 that were committed by Morales against their son, Samuel Bates. He also stated that within one year, he learned of the sexual abuse of Brian Wolohan and did not report it to the police either.

Under cross examination by the Defense Attorney Drew (which was surprising), he was asked “Did you have a responsibility to report to police” the crimes committed against Samuel Bates and Brian Wolohan. To this Layman said, “I believe so.” Drew responded, “Did you report to police?” Layman answered, “I didn’t do it.”

It should also be added that Scott Bates, the father of Samuel and Daniel Bates, contacted the Covenant Life pastoral team again in 2007 when he learned that Morales was a pastor in Las Vegas, NV. The entire pastoral team talked about how to handle the situation with Morales. Layman was given the assignment to contact Morales. Layman talk to Morales by phone. During this conversation Morales admitted to the sexual abuse of boys but claimed he couldn’t remember the details. None of the pastors at Covenant Life Church reported this confession of sex abuse to the police. They knew Morales was a serial and predatory sex abuser.

Rachael Bates-Paci took the stand next. She is a sister to Daniel and Samuel Bates. She was the one who discovered Morales was in full time ministry. This alarmed her. She told her father, Scott, who went to the CLC pastors.

The third victim, Jeremy Cook took the stand toward the end of the day. He described the terrifying and demeaning experience of being sexually abused by Morales. He was afraid he would be ostracized by the pastors and all his friends in Covenant Life Church if they ever found out what happened. He also feared being expelled from the Christian School where Morales was a teacher and Vice Principal. Morales was in a position of power and well respected. He had no hope anyone would believe his story.

In 1993, Jeremy Cook finally told Samuel Bates and his parents about the abuse. Samuel talked to Grant Layman about the abuse of Jeremy. Layman assured Samuel that “They [the pastors] would take care of it.” Yet under oath, Jeremy said Layman “never talked” to him about the abuse. Under cross examination, Defense Attorney Drew asked Jeremy, “To the best of your knowledge did they [the pastors] take care of it” [i.e. report it to the police, etc.]. Jeremy responded with a firm, “No.”

The last person to take the stand was the lead investigator, Detective Sally Magee. She verified all the basic facts and described the times and place of her meetings with the victims and other parties.

Tomorrow morning, Nate Morales’ former wife, Marcia Jo Griffeth, will be taking the stand to testify against him. She learned of his crimes in October 2012 when he was arrested. She divorced him in December 2013. She is a wonderful woman. Tomorrow she will present evidence of his guilt.

After she finishes, either Assistant State’s Attorney Jessica Hall or Amanda Michalski will make closing arguments. They have been working together throughout the hearing. So will the Defense Attorney for Morales.

A few observations to close. At no time over the past two days, did Morales’ lawyer ever challenge the veracity of any of the crimes alleged by the victims. Nor did he challenge the testimony provided by Grant Layman and Dick Wolohan that Morales confessed to them that he was a sex abuser. Maybe Defense Attorney Drew will contest the testimony of all ten material witness tomorrow but thus far he has not done so.

I’ve been writing about the conspiracy to cover up sex abuse in Covenant Life Church and Sovereign Grace Ministries by C.J. Mahaney, Joshua Harris, Grant Layman and many other leaders. There is now NO QUESTION this has occurred. These men knew about Samuel Bates, Brian Wolohan, and Jeremy Cook. Never once did they report these crimes to the police. In each case, they covered up the heinous crimes in the words of Assistant State’s Attorney Jessica Hall.

I assume that’s why none of the pastors have attended the trial thus far. Nor has any leader or pastor from Sovereign Grace Ministries including the Executive Director, Mark Prater.. I find that utterly reprehensible. The entire pastoral staff of Covenant Life Church should have attended the trial to hear the evidence against Morales and against them. Furthermore, they should have been here to support the victims and hear their anguished testimony. Tomorrow, they should be present to beg everyone’s forgiveness and begin the process of public confession, calling C.J. Mahaney to account, and making restitution to the victims.

Tomorrow afternoon the jury will begin deliberations. I will write again once the proceedings are concluded.”

1 thabiti t4g4

(Audio here)

1-piper

cj-dever(Audio here)

1-wayne-grudem

(Audio here)

Here is an email I (Todd Wilhelm) received from an assistant of Wayne Grudem after I had written him urging him to not speak at C.J. Mahaney’s church:

Dear Todd,

My name is John Paul Stepanian, and I am Dr. Grudem’s assistant as well as a student here at Phoenix Seminary. One of my jobs is to see to Dr. Grudem’s correspondence on his behalf.

Thank you for your inquiry regarding Dr. Grudem speaking at CJ’s church.  Dr. Grudem has the challenging task of weighing many worthy and intriguing requests.  His current research, teaching, speaking engagements and family commitments have filled his schedule, and unfortunately he will be unable to answer your questions directly.  Please accept his regrets.  Dr. Grudem has asked me to personally respond to these requests on his behalf.

Dr. Grudem is speaking at CJ’s church specifically so that he can signal support for CJ in the face of unjust accusations.  No further communication on this subject will be responded to.

May God bless your continued work for His kingdom.

Sincerely,

John Paul Stepanian
MA to Dr. Grudem
Phoenix Seminary

On behalf of:
Wayne Grudem, Ph.D.
Research Professor of Theology and Biblical Studies
Phoenix Seminary

Carl Trueman on Celebrity Preachers (Audio here)

1Photo Promotion of C.J. at T4G

“The moral and legal responsibility of every Christian — and especially every Christian leader and minister — must be to report any suspicion of the abuse of a child to law enforcement authorities. Christians are sometimes reluctant to do this, but this reluctance is both deadly and wrong.

Sometimes Christians are reluctant to report suspected sexual abuse because they do not feel that they know enough about the situation. They are afraid of making a false accusation. This is the wrong instinct. We do not have the ability to conduct the kind of investigation that is needed, nor is this assigned to the church. This is the function of government as instituted by God (Romans 13). Waiting for further information allows a predator to continue and puts children at risk. This is itself an immoral act that needs to be seen for what it is.

A Christian hearing a report of sexual abuse within a church, Christian organization, or Christian school, needs to act in exactly the same manner called for if the abuse is reported in any other context. The church and Christian organizations must not become safe places for abusers. These must be safe places for children, and for all. Any report of sexual abuse must lead immediately to action. That action cannot fall short of contacting law enforcement authorities. A clear lesson of the Penn State scandal is this: Internal reporting is simply not enough.”
-Al Mohler, “The Tragic Lessons of Penn State – A Call To Action”

T4G’s Original Statement of Support for Mahaney:
“We have stood beside our friend, C. J. Mahaney, and we can speak to his personal integrity. We can make no judgment as to the truthfulness of the horrifying charges of sexual abuse made against some individuals who have been connected, in some way, to Sovereign Grace Ministries and its churches. …

We must take any responsible action to protect the vulnerable, and we must act immediately to inform legal authorities of any charge or claim of sexual abuse, and do so without delay. Our first response must be to call the police, to act to protect the child or young person, and then to proceed to biblical church discipline when the facts demand such a response.

If a Christian leader is accused of any wrongdoing, those to whom he is accountable must investigate the charges and then deal responsibly with the evidence. If a criminal accusation is made, Christians have a fundamental duty to inform law enforcement officials. This does not, however, preclude or mitigate the church’s responsibility for biblical church discipline.

A Christian leader, charged with any credible, serious, and direct wrongdoing, would usually be well advised to step down from public ministry. No such accusation of direct wrongdoing was ever made against C. J. Mahaney. Instead, he was charged with founding a ministry and for teaching doctrines and principles that are held to be true by vast millions of American evangelicals. For this reason, we, along with many others, refused to step away from C. J. in any way. We do not regret that decision. We are profoundly thankful for C. J. as friend, and we are equally thankful for the vast influence for good he has been among so many Gospel-minded people.

Our heart goes out to anyone who has ever suffered abuse of any kind. Our emphatic encouragement would be for anyone who has ever suffered such abuse or knows of anyone made vulnerable to such abuse to contact law enforcement officials without delay. We must then allow the law enforcement agencies and the courts to do their proper work. When criminal charges are filed, the public is then presented with evidence upon which it can draw a responsible judgment. On matters of protecting the vulnerable, Christians know what judgment must be made. We side with the victims.

Our hope and prayer is that Christ’s healing and health will come to all parties involved in this matter and that justice and righteousness will prevail for all. May every true victim of any injustice be vindicated. May every doer of wrong be exposed. And may all of us speak no further than we can responsibly speak.

Those who minister in the name of the Lord Christ bear an inescapable duty to live and to minister in a way that is above reproach. Those who teach, reminds James, will face a stricter judgment. [James 3:1] May everything we do, everything we teach, and all that we are be measured against that standard.

Together for the Gospel,

Mark Dever, Ligon Duncan, Albert Mohler

The Gospel Coalition’s Statement of Support For Mahaney:
Over the past several months we have remained publicly silent about the lawsuit filed against Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM), which alleged a conspiracy to cover up sexual abuse.

Many have asked why we have not spoken publicly. Is this a conspiracy of silence, a way to whitewash accusations against a friend? Is it a way to stand with the powerful and to make a mockery of the weak? Is it simple cowardice? Why hasn’t more been said?

…It needs to be said in no uncertain terms that the actual acts alleged in the lawsuit are utterly evil—an offense against a holy God and an act of hatred against innocent children. They are horrifying and revolting. Apart from repentance, they are damning. There is no excuse, at any time or in any place or for any reason, for the use of children for sexual pleasure. Pastors who learn of such abuses should contact the appropriate authorities immediately, institute church discipline, and apply the whole counsel of God (including both law and gospel).

…So the entire legal strategy was dependent on a theory of conspiracy that was more hearsay than anything like reasonable demonstration of culpability. As to the specific matter of C. J. participating in some massive cover-up, the legal evidence was so paltry (more like non-existent) that the judge did not think a trial was even warranted.

…Another reason we have remained silent is because we have detailed charges from one side, but essentially no defense from the other side. Scripture warns us about what often happens in such a situation: “The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him” (Prov. 18:17). Can anyone say with certainty who is innocent and who is guilty in these multiple allegations spanning several decades?

…We are not ashamed to call C. J. a friend. Our relationship with C. J. is like that with any good friend—full of laughter and sober reflection, encouragement and mutual correction. He has regularly invited—even pursued—correction, and we have given him our perspective when it is warranted. While the admission of friendship may render this entire statement tainted in the eyes of some, we hope most Christians will understand that while friends should never cover for each others’ sins, neither do friends quickly accept the accusations of others when they run counter to everything they have come to see and know about their friend. We are grateful for C. J.’s friendship and his fruitful ministry of the gospel over many decades.

…Our prayer is that one day—and please, Lord, soon—all who face injustice of any kind will see the Lord bring forth his righteousness as the light, and his justice as the noonday (Ps. 37:6).
Don Carson, Kevin DeYoung, Justin Taylor
This statement reflects the views of the signatories and does not necessarily speak for other Council members, bloggers, and writers for The Gospel Coalition.”

1 folmarHere is John Folmar, Senior Pastor of United Christian Church of Dubai, the church I formerly attended but quit for issues of conscience dealing with the promotion of Mahaney’s books:  (Audio here)

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Folmar’s “Go to book” for new believers in his church! Jesus opposed pedophilia, but I don’t see a whole lot of opposing going on by John Folmar. Actions speak louder than words my friend!

These “leaders” display either an appalling lack of discernment or a love of fame and fortune which overrides any concern for the brothers and sisters they are pastoring.  Either way one must question the wisdom of continuing to follow these celebrities.

t4gteam

Dever Mahaney DeYoung Kauflin Duncan in SA

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Comments on sgmsurvivors.com from a former Sovereign Grace church member:

“I am so incredibly disgusted by these pastors, especially the fact that they are hiding behind lawyers.
I am also humbled by the brave people testifying in court. I can’t imagine what that is like. Thank you for carrying about others enough to put Morales away to keep this from happening again.
I do believe that this should be enough for CLC to close its doors. It’s time. I do believe had the pastors come clean and confessed all of this when they split with SGM and pursued genuine change, things could have been different. Instead, they have issued SGM-like statements that don’t really seem to paint an accurate picture of what happened.
Eric Simmons should resign and if no other suitable pastor is available, they should close the doors at Arlington, too. Eric needs to find other ways to use his gifts. Though his sin was committed at a young age, it undermines the very trust necessary to pastor. In an SGM/GC model where pastoring is reduced to preaching, it might not seem like a big deal, but the role of pastor carries an intrinsic predisposition for people to trust him and they probably would not trust if they knew the truth.
And, is there really anyone, whether loyal to SGM or not, who does not believe that CJ was not aware and likely giving direction about these things?”

“I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign Lord. I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.”  
Ezekiel 34:15-16

Lydia's Corner:  Ezekiel 31:1-32:32  Hebrews 12:14-29  Psalm 113:1-114:8  Proverbs 27:18-20

Comments

Mahaney Has No Clothes! Guest Post by Todd Wilhelm — 278 Comments

  1. This shocking and disgusting. May Al Mohler choke on his words over Penn State. I cannot believe that these men have been allowed by their churches to serve after this came out. I sincerely hope and pray the prosecutor's office will file charges against all these men for colluding with one another to cover this up. I do believe these men are accountable as law breakers for refusing to report this sexual predator. If the lawyers for the accused have not seen fit to challenge at all the assertion that the Pastors did not report this, then I hope our government makes an example of them.

  2. C. J. Mahaney has played these men like the confidence man he very much seems to be, and done so for years. It is understandable to “stand by your man,” a man you consider a friend, for an initial period of time. It is understandable for busy men to be played by a player. But now, after years and years of damning evidence FROM MAHANEY’S OWN MOUTH AND PEN, anyone continuing to attest to his “personal integrity,” and continuing to “signal support for C. J. in the face of unjust accusations” loses all credibility with regard to their ability to credibly “speak to the personal integrity” of anyone at all.

    I wonder what the Maryland District Attorney’s Office thinks of Mark Dever, Al Mohler, Lig Duncan, Kevin DeYoung, Justin Taylor, D. A. Carson, Wayne Grudem, John Piper, Sinclair Ferguson, Jerry Bridges, Ray Ortlund, Carl Trueman, Thabiti Anyabwile, and Tom Schreiner’s (all of whom have very publicly expressed their support for Mahaney in the face of these charges) ability to speak credibly about a person’s integrity. I wonder if the Maryland District Attorney’s Office would believe a word any of those men say.

    Can Mark Dever, Al Mohler, Lig Duncan, Kevin DeYoung, Justin Taylor, D. A. Carson, Wayne Grudem, John Piper, Sinclair Ferguson, Jerry Bridges, Ray Ortlund, Carl Trueman, Thabiti Anyabwile, and Tom Schreiner still be trusted to exegete Scripture? Perhaps. Maybe even probably. Just because a person cannot see the true character of a man skilled at maintaining a “public face” and “winsome personality” (I am a pastor and I know all about how to carry around a “publicly pious personality” that is not my true self), doesn’t mean he/she cannot clearly communicate what the Scriptures say (the Scriptures, after all, are not written in a secret code). But it does mean that the longer they hold onto their shameful and rapidly disintegrating cover story (“We trust C. J.! He is a godly man who has done nothing wrong! This is all a ‘vast left-wing conspiracy,’ and a persecution of the godly!”), the more damage they do to their own reputations and ministries. I know that I, for one (in a pastoral position that affords me the opportunity to influence thousands) no longer commend any of these men or their ministries, even though I once did with nearly all of them.

  3. @ pcapastor:

    Yes, these Neo-Cal leaders have lost my respect as well.

    Those who attended T4G 2014 need to think twice before signing up for T4G 2016, and I sincerely hope the congregations who pay for their pastors to go will ask some serious questions about their pastors' associations.

  4. Pingback: Victim From Sovereign Grace Sex Scandal Testifies | Thou Art The Man UNITED STATES

  5. @ Deb:
    Thanks for posting this. These names and their undying support to Mahaney will always need to be remembered. It demonstrates the lack of discernment on the part of these guys. If you all are members of their churches, I would question their judgments in other things as well.

    Never forget men like Tim Challies who said: “I have deliberately avoided learning too much.”

    http://www.challies.com/articles/thinking-biblically-about-cj-mahaney-and-sovereign-grace-ministries

    When this involves child sex abuse, such statements border on dangerous.

  6. dee wrote:

    lack of discernment

    Did Almighty God, in His Sovereignty, cause a lack of discernment in the Neo-Cal leaders to demonstrate their fallibility? This definitely seems to be the case.

    Clearly, we should place our trust in Jesus Christ alone…

  7. I am honored to have you publish this article ladies. Thanks. Let’s hope it helps shed further light on the Evangelical Industrial Complex. In my opinion the only explanation for the unabashed support for Mahaney along with the total lack of compassion for the victims (other than a few hollow phrases tossed their way in the statements released in support of Mahaney) by the individuals mentioned above in pcapastor’s comments is that the bottom line for these celebrity preachers is the bottom line. Most of them may have been decent, god-fearing men at one time, but they appear to have lost their first love on their way to the bank.

    I would be thrilled to see people staying away from their conferences by the droves and their books gathering dust in bookstores around the world. We don’t need these men to tell us how to think about anything. They have proven themselves unfit leaders.

    On the lighter side, while I may be a voracious reader, I am no Al Mohler. My stack of books is nowhere near the size of his stack of books and I retain little of what I read!

    http://thouarttheman.org/2013/11/19/gospel-centered-brown-nosing/

  8. pcapastor wrote:

    “publicly pious personality”

    Do pastors who do this realize that the pious personality gig is pretty obvious to said public? We used to watch the pastor of First Church of the Most get out of his car in the hospital parking lot, walk up to the hospital like a normal person, then put on his “preacher walk” (which of course was only part of the whole modified body language thing) the minute he got inside the hospital. It really does not increase their credibility with the general public as much as they may think it might. But apparently it works to some extent with cronies and underlings. Which does raise some questions, does it not–about cronies and underlings.

  9. Nancy wrote:

    pcapastor wrote:
    “publicly pious personality”
    Do pastors who do this realize that the pious personality gig is pretty obvious to said public?

    I don’t think they do, because the ones that do this are pretty much out of touch with reality. Unfortunately they usually thrive because their gig works with “church people” (i.e. those who prefer to live in a “religious” realm rather than the world as it is).

  10. Meanwhile, one of the victims has courageously broken his silence. He was interviewed by WJLA yesterday (http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/05/nathaniel-morales-trial-victim-jeremy-cook-testifies-103128.html), but has also broken his silence on the SGM Survivors site: http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=4247&cp=16#comment-84570

    Interesting that he now lives in Raleigh — I hope he is able to meet Dee and Deb because I know he would receive support and encouragement from that.

  11. @ pcapastor:
    Very interesting indeed! What a small world…

    Dee and I have already been discussing where we might take Jeremy to lunch. Our treat! Hope he will agree to meet with us after this is over.

  12. pcapastor wrote:

    signal support for C. J. in the face of unjust accusations

    That phrase struck me. It assumes that the allegations are unjust, which is unwarranted. I appreciate the Anglo-Saxon safeguard of ‘innocent until proven guilty’, and that prominent Christian leaders should be careful of trial by blog. But with very serious allegations you would think the best course of action would be to clear the name of the accused, or see then sent down if that is what they deserve, and certainly not to give some kind of unconditional support. Isn’t this what is meant by participating in another man’s sins?

    In the eyes of an unbelieving world, I reckon covering up the abuse is probably seen as worse than that abuse happened in the first place. Any group can have those in it who let the rest down, whether secular or religious. This has been true in Germany with regard to Catholic abuse, which has been rife for decades, and has led to a mini exodus from the church because of the church’s abject failure to deal with it. It gives the impression that God condemns sin in the unbeliever, but condones it in those who are supposed to be ‘saints’.

  13. Last night I was at my church’s Wednesday night Bible study, and we were discussing the heresies of the seven church’s of Revelation. The leader drew a comparison between the heresies of today and the heresies of the 1st century. I mentioned some of the Sexual Abuse from these places (IFB Sovereign Grace et. al.) The connection the leader drew was interesting. It stems from the heavy reliance on men to teach and the idolatry of men, and of their words above and beyond the words of Jesus. And these men grow into power out of their own selfish desires and lusts.

  14. Here is an email I received from an assistant of Wayne Grudem after I had written him urging him to not speak at C.J. Mahaney’s church:

    Continuing evidence that it’s not only shysters who can talk for an hour and say absolutely nothing.

  15. “These five Kings said one to another:
    ‘King unto King o’er the world is Brother’…”
    — G.K.Chesteton, “Ballad of the Battle of Gibeon”

    And the lowborn only exist to die at the whim of the Highborn Kings.

  16. Ken wrote:

    In the eyes of an unbelieving world, I reckon covering up the abuse is probably seen as worse than that abuse happened in the first place.

    I think that is true. As for the abuser one can always revert to the medical paradigm, instead of the religious paradigm, and say that the abuser must be sick. That surely he must have a case of the can’t help its. Hold off on the police while somebody calls in the psych people. But those who cover it up cannot be called sick. There is no diagnosis for that, and it is back to stuff like coward and indifferent to human suffering and even bully.

    The perp may be said to be one sick puppy, but the one who does the coverup can only be called by names which leave them inexcusable.

  17. dee wrote:

    TO OUR READERS: BREAKING NEWS

    SGM’s Nate Morales GUILTY on ALL 5 Counts.

    Deb, Dee, everybody:
    I really wanted them to subpoena Cee Jay & his Merry Men. The sight of liveried armorbearers blowing long trumpets before the HUMBLE(TM) Head Apostle as he enters and announcing how HUMBLE(TM) he is. And the reaction of the judge.

    P.S. Yesterday at Julie Anne’s Spiritual Sounding Board, they covered a headline about five homeschooled brothers in a family compound who grew up using their sister (starting at age 4) as their pass-around sex toy. And how the scandal broke; one brother started having second thoughts about molesting his little sister, first went to the family Patriarch, then to the Clergy of his family’s church. There was speculation that he did this expecting the Patriarch and Clergy to protect him and cover everything up — I wonder where he might have gotten that idea?

  18. @ TW:

    “On the lighter side, while I may be a voracious reader, I am no Al Mohler. My stack of books is nowhere near the size of his stack of books and I retain little of what I read!”
    +++++++++++++++

    you sound far too reasonable to succumb to stack envy.

  19. @ Nancy:

    “We used to watch the pastor of First Church of the Most get out of his car in the hospital parking lot, walk up to the hospital like a normal person, then put on his “preacher walk” (which of course was only part of the whole modified body language thing) the minute he got inside the hospital.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    hah! so, what is this “preacher walk”? let me hear it. is it the physical counterpart to the verbal “let’s join with one another for fellowship” instead of just “wanna grab a burger?”

  20. dee wrote:

    TO OUR READERS: BREAKING NEWS

    SGM’s Nate Morales GUILTY on ALL 5 Counts.

    Thank you, Jesus. Thank you, Dee and Deb, for your tenacity and integrity in this justice issue.

  21. elastigirl wrote:

    what’s with the hands? they’re all doing the same thing.

    It’s a mesmerizing “now you see it, now you don’t” type of trick.

  22. SGM’s Nate Morales GUILTY on ALL 5 Counts.
    ++++++++++++++

    the beginning of a collective sigh of justice served.

    sin sniffers who overspiritualize this, the only appropriate response, need to get some oxygen.

  23. elastigirl wrote:

    hah! so, what is this “preacher walk”? let me hear it. is it the physical counterpart to the verbal “let’s join with one another for fellowship” instead of just “wanna grab a burger?”

    Don’t forget, in Christianese “Fellowship” is a verb.

    “Fellowshipping with the LOORD…”
    — some otherwise-forgettable Eighties CCM song

    In fanfic, “Shipping” refers to “relationship” stories between two characters. It got to mean relationship as in SEX to the point that they had to coin another term, “friendshipping”, for “shipping” without meat in motion. (“Slash” is same-sex “Ship”, usually with meat & motion.) Noun forms to describe/classify the actual fanfic are “Shipfic” and “Slashfic”.

    Given all the use of “Fellowshipping” in Christianese, my diseased mind keeps connecting it with “Shipping” in fanspeak and wondering if you could actually make a linguistic connection.

  24. dee wrote:

    TO OUR READERS: BREAKING NEWS
    SGM’s Nate Morales GUILTY on ALL 5 Counts.
     

    This is good news.

    C. J. Mahaney now has only one of two courses of action ahead of him.

    EITHER: “I did not know that this key leader in my church and school was a sexual predator, but I AM RESPONSIBLE NONETHELESS. This happened on my watch, and I am responsible, and I will do everything in my power to make things right with every victim.”

    OR: “Like my brother-in-law, Grant Layman, I knew that these things were happening in my church and I covered them up. Not only am I responsible, but I am complicit and guilty and will turn myself into the authorities in the State of Maryland, submitting to the justice system.”

    Any other course of action is a vile sham.

    Further, the friends and supporters of C. J. Mahaney now have only one course of action: Insisting that C. J. Mahaney go public with one of the two courses of action above, or else going public with a public condemnation of him.

    If they (Mark Dever, Al Mohler, Lig Duncan, Kevin DeYoung, Justin Taylor, D. A. Carson, Wayne Grudem, John Piper, Sinclair Ferguson, Jerry Bridges, Ray Ortlund, Carl Trueman, Thabiti Anyabwile, and Tom Schreiner) do not do this they, and the institutions they represent (Southern Seminary, Reformed Theological Seminary, Westminster Seminary, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, The Gospel Coalition [trademark], etc.) become permanently disfigured and discredited.

  25. First, a word of prophecy against those who are so committed to supporting their business partners:

    “For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not become partners with them; for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says,
    “Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.” Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise but as wise, making the best use of the time, because the days are evil.” Ephesians 5:5-16

    Second, what kind of crime or ethical failure has to happen before certain leaders separate from other leaders? If covering up serial child predation doesn’t cut it, what does? Do they have to cannibalize infants? This is so sad, and I have no idea, other than predictable and pedantic in-group rhetoric, how anyone would feel like they can trust or support some of these leaders ever again.

  26. Sadly, I'm looking at all of tgc with a jaundiced eye, which is a shame because there are undoubtedly some fine writers and pastors over there. If they find the time to blog about world vision, but not this, what are we to think about them?

    On a personal note, it's the denomination of my youth (sbc) and present (pca) that are horribly representing themselves. These are dark days for American evangelicals…

    @ pcapastor:

  27. Acg116 wrote:

    Sadly, I’m looking at all of tgc with a jaundiced eye, which is a shame because there are undoubtedly some fine writers and pastors over there. If they find the time to blog about world vision, but not this, what are we to think about them? On a personal note, it’s the denomination of my youth (sbc) and present (pca) that are horribly representing themselves. These are dark days for American evangelicals… @ pcapastor:

    I agree. I love my denomination (PCA) and will stay in it until I die, but it is the pastors and churches in the PCA that no one has ever heard of that make me love it. With only a slight paraphrase I think these things are true: It is impossible to serve both God and fame. It is impossible to serve both God and influence. it is impossible to serve both God and one's own reputation. It is impossible to serve both God and the approval of one's peers. It is impossible to serve both God and The Gospel Coalition.

  28. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    First, a word of prophecy against those who are so committed to supporting their business partners:
    “For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not become partners with them; for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says,
    “Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.” Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise but as wise, making the best use of the time, because the days are evil.” Ephesians 5:5-16
    Second, what kind of crime or ethical failure has to happen before certain leaders separate from other leaders? If covering up serial child predation doesn’t cut it, what does? Do they have to cannibalize infants? This is so sad, and I have no idea, other than predictable and pedantic in-group rhetoric, how anyone would feel like they can trust or support some of these leaders ever again.

    Very, very, VERY well put.

  29. http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/05/nathaniel-morales-trial-victim-jeremy-cook-testifies-103128.html

    “A fellow parishioner offered-up a room in his home along Sunflower Drive in Rockville. In Oct. 1989, Morales accepted the offer, settling into the basement recreation room. The family’s 15-year-old son also slept in the basement, in an adjacent bedroom.

    http://www.brentdetwiler.com/

    “Grant Layman was sworn in next. Under oath he told the jury he did not report the crimes told him by Scott and Charlene Bates in 1992 that were committed by Morales against their son, Samuel Bates. He also stated that within one year, he learned of the sexual abuse of Brian Wolohan and did not report it to the police either.

    Under cross examination by the Defense Attorney Drew (which was surprising), he was asked “Did you have a responsibility to report to police” the crimes committed against Samuel Bates and Brian Wolohan. To this Layman said, “I believe so.” Drew responded, “Did you report to police?” Layman answered, “I didn’t do it.”

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/02/14/nate-morales-possible-conflicting-statement-by-covenant-life-church/

    “On February 6, CLC published a Response to News Reports (about the Nate Morales arrest) here

    Contrary to the impression left by the news reports, Covenant Life Church had no knowledge of such abuse until many years after the abuse when an adult who had been victimized as a child came forward”.
    +++++++++++++++++

    The leaders past & present at Covenant Life Church are liars, and deliberately put others at risk in order to protect their own interests. (but of course this old news)

  30. Morales is an obvious predator, & they (the church elders) could have stopped him a long time ago. Shame on them.

    It is now going to be a fascinating watch to see how CJ et al spiritualise their appalling, sinful, pathetic actions that led to children being brutalised. By their fruit you will know them.

  31. Acg116 wrote:

    Sadly, I’m looking at all of tgc with a jaundiced eye, which is a shame because there are undoubtedly some fine writers and pastors over there. If the find the time to blog about world vision, but not this, what are we to think about them.

    But World Vision had to do with HOMOSEXUALITY(TM) HOMOSEXUALITY(TM) HOMOSEXUALITY(TM).

    No wonder when you step outside the Thomas Kincade-decorated fortress walls of the Christianese Bubble, everyone pegs you as Fred Phelps with better PR and style.

  32. Beakerj wrote:

    It is now going to be a fascinating watch to see how CJ et al spiritualise their appalling, sinful, pathetic actions that led to children being brutalised.

    “For you devour widows and orphans, and for justification make long prayers…”

  33. pcapastor wrote:

    “I did not know that this key leader in my church and school was a sexual predator, but I AM RESPONSIBLE NONETHELESS. This happened on my watch, and I am responsible, and I will do everything in my power to make things right with every victim.”

    What would you suggest that he can do to make things right with every victim?

  34. elastigirl wrote:

    hah! so, what is this “preacher walk”? let me hear it. is it the physical counterpart to the verbal “let’s join with one another for fellowship” instead of just “wanna grab a burger?”

    Well, let’s see. I really can’t explain it because I never tried to explain it before.

    First when you get out of the car you put on your suit cost which you brought with you and then stride across the parking lot with a relaxed posture and head in such a position as to see pretty far ahead of you. You seem to be headed somewhere and pursuing that purposefully. This forms the observational baseline.

    Then you go into the hospital and you slow down, shorten your stride (so far so good) and you place your feet on the floor as if you are trying to be quiet, or trying to slip by without anyone taking notice. You restrict your arm motions and the arms are held closer to the side. The top of the body is minimally bent forward with what seems to been slight straightening of the lordotic curvature and minimal and ever so slight rounding of the shoulders. The head is slightly tipped downward, only slightly but noticeable when compared to the parking lot, and this enables you to look at people rather out of the tops of the eyes, a sort of minimal upward position of the eyes. Not quite upward enough to convey “I don’t believe you” or worse “who are you anyhow” but the gesture does bring that to mind. The gait is not a shuffle, but there is something about it that makes me think of that word. The word slink also comes to mind, but this is not nearly as dramatic as that.

    Now, is this not normal for a hospital? No. The staff do not do that. The visitors do not do that. And why would anybody do it between the front door and the elevators? No, what I am trying to describe, I think, is somebody trying to portray false humility. It might be saying “Go ahead and fawn over me a little while I pretend that I don’t notice.”

    I could be wrong I really have far more knowledge of human anatomy that I do of human body language (which approaches zero). But I do have a dog who will bark her head off and fly into a frenzy on occasion, but who will also kind of sneak up and gently present herself with constrained body movements and duck her head a little while looking up, and that means “I want some peanut butter.” So I think the “preacher walk” may mean “go ahead and make over me some while I act kind of special here.”

    Now, there seem to be right many men and women of the cloth who may be reading this. Most of you it seems are real live people and genuine believers. I hope I am not talking about you, as I certainly have no intention of that.

  35. @ DebWilli:
    Actually, we could write until our fingers fall off and it would make no difference unless you guys add your voices. It is your voices that made the difference.

  36. Ken wrote:

    This has been true in Germany with regard to Catholic abuse, which has been rife for decades, and has led to a mini exodus from the church because of the church’s abject failure to deal with it.

    The sad statistics of the numbers of abuse cases in the Protestant church seem to be as bad as the Catholic church abuse. I remember people at church blaming the Catholic abuse on celibacy. There was a rather smug attitude amongst evangelicals that we did not have “that problem.”

    Well, we do. Percentage wise it appears to be the same, or as Boz has indicated, even worse than the Catholics. This institutionalized sin will deeply wound evangelicals and probably already has. The exodus had begun and will continue to rise unless we deal with our issue.

    I believe that we bear responsibility for those who leave the church over this issue.

  37. Nancy wrote:

    The perp may be said to be one sick puppy, but the one who does the coverup can only be called by names which leave them inexcusable.

    I wonder how those who stood by and said nothing are sleeping these days. Grant Layman and the pastoral staff of CLC-despicable.

  38. Just to remind everyone here that the Gospel Coalition is having its “Anchored” conference June 20-23 (Friday night through Monday) here in Phoenix. C.J. Mahaney is one of the listed speakers. The location is the Phoenix Convention Center, which is just a couple hundred feet from the 3rd St./ Washington light rail stop. I personally want to give C.J. a lovely WARM welcome when he comes to Phoenix next month.

  39. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I really wanted them to subpoena Cee Jay & his Merry Men.

    They have been exposed during this trial. I wonder if more is to come. We will cover the specifics of the trial and the aftermath tomorrow. On Monday, I hope to zero in on what has been revealed.We can now say things that have been needing to be said. No more “alleged.” This stuff was said under oath, with threat of perjury by Grant Layman, brother in law to Cj Mahaney-a man Joshua Harris said was a man of integrity just a few months ago.

    If this is integrity, God have mercy.

  40. pcapastor wrote:

    “Like my brother-in-law, Grant Layman, I knew that these things were happening in my church and I covered them up. Not only am I responsible, but I am complicit and guilty and will turn myself into the authorities in the State of Maryland, submitting to the justice system.”

    On Monday, I will go over some of the testimony. It would seem to me that this latter statement is more and more probable. There were some interesting things that were said and even more, some things that were said when prompted by the Defense Attorney which is fascinating. We know that the CLC pastoral staff was apprised in 2007 of Morales. This is significant. Very, very important. None of them reported this. Guess where i am going…more on Monday. pcapastor wrote:

    If they (Mark Dever, Al Mohler, Lig Duncan, Kevin DeYoung, Justin Taylor, D. A. Carson, Wayne Grudem, John Piper, Sinclair Ferguson, Jerry Bridges, Ray Ortlund, Carl Trueman, Thabiti Anyabwile, and Tom Schreiner) do not do this they, and the institutions they represent (Southern Seminary, Reformed Theological Seminary, Westminster Seminary, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, The Gospel Coalition [trademark], etc.) become permanently disfigured and discredited.

    Please add Denny Burk, Tim Challies, and John Folmar along with a well known pastor in the Raleigh area whose name we cannot say since we are obligated to keep our email confidential. He accused the Deebs of being guilty of character assassination when we begged him several years ago to talk to Mahaney (whom he liked and has visited SGM churches) about the evident problems. I wonder now- does he think the courts in Maryland are guilty of character assassination as well?

  41. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Second, what kind of crime or ethical failure has to happen before certain leaders separate from other leaders? If covering up serial child predation doesn’t cut it, what does? Do they have to cannibalize infants? This is so sad, and I have no idea, other than predictable and pedantic in-group rhetoric, how anyone would feel like they can trust or support some of these leaders ever again.

    Must be repeated.

  42. Acg116 wrote:

    because there are undoubtedly some fine writers and pastors over there

    If so, they will address this. Wendy Alsup is one who has.

  43. Is there some kind of conspiracy charges that can be brought against CJ and company? Now that his BIL admitted in court that they knew and did nothing it seems that something could be done. I’m hoping one or more of the attorneys that comment here will weigh in on that possibility. Maybe it’s just wishful thinking on my part that these guys will get what they really deserve.

  44. @ elastigirl:
    Thanks for pointing that out. It sure appears to me that the CLC pastors flat out lied. Better take a screen shot of that CLC blog post.

  45. I wonder how Carolyn feels now?

    How convenient that CJ bailed CLC, left Josh holding the bag, and Grant took the hit. I hold CJ responsible for the whole mess. I know they all lied, and in that, Grant holds responsibility as does Josh, but CJ was the Kingpin. And he walks.

  46. Wisdomchaser wrote:

    Is there some kind of conspiracy charges that can be brought against CJ and company?

    It was already, but the lawsuit was dismissed beacue the statute of limitations had expired. Not sure if the Morales trial will change that. An Attorney might be able to answer.

  47. dee wrote:

    Please add Denny Burk, Tim Challies, and John Folmar along with a well known pastor in the Raleigh area whose name we cannot say since we are obligated to keep our email confidential. He accused the Deebs of being guilty of character assassination when we begged him in 2009 to talk to Mahaney (whom he liked and has visited SGM churches)about the evident problems.
    I wonder now- does he think the courts inMaryland are assassinating characters as well?

    I do know of one well known pastor in the North Raleigh, North Durham, Chapel Hill, Cary, Brier Creek and Blue Ridge area who is palsy with that bunch, and who recently hired a guy from our local SBC mega as an executive pastor (whatever that is). This one I know about seems to have all the makings of somebody with a whole lot of ambition. So maybe dissing the Deebs was part of his initiation requirements to be part of the gang. Just saying.

  48. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    HOMOSEXUALITY(TM) or allowing Women to speak.
    That’s about it.
    But HUG, this WAS homosexual, at least in the sense of male-male sex!

    Yeah, that’s the weird part. Usually they give a pass to male-on-female molestation (and female-on-female), but male-on-male is usually where the line gets drawn between pious coverup and pile of rocks.

  49. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Wisdomchaser wrote:
    Is there some kind of conspiracy charges that can be brought against CJ and company?
    It was already, but the lawsuit was dismissed beacue the statute of limitations had expired.

    And Cee Jay’s fanboys and spinmeisters crowed in triumph.

    Not sure if the Morales trial will change that. An Attorney might be able to answer.

    And there’s always civil action. Just ask O.J.Simpson.

  50. dee wrote:

    @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
    Oh yeah, the crime that must occur is not agreeing with them on some fine point of Calvinism. Far, far more problematic in their camp than kids getting raped.

    Purity of Ideology, Comrade.
    Purity of Ideology.

  51. Joe2 wrote:

    pcapastor wrote:
    “I did not know that this key leader in my church and school was a sexual predator, but I AM RESPONSIBLE NONETHELESS. This happened on my watch, and I am responsible, and I will do everything in my power to make things right with every victim.”
    What would you suggest that he can do to make things right with every victim?

    Pretty much whatever they themselves feel they need in order to move on with their lives in healthy ways. None of the victims that I have read about seem to be vindictive in any way.

  52. I wonder what’s going to happen with all the great and good who praised and supported CJ. I expect there will some serious damage limitation or back pedalling happening soon.

  53. Joe2 wrote:

    pcapastor wrote:

    “I did not know that this key leader in my church and school was a sexual predator, but I AM RESPONSIBLE NONETHELESS. This happened on my watch, and I am responsible, and I will do everything in my power to make things right with every victim.”

    What would you suggest that he can do to make things right with every victim?

    I can tell you what I think CJ/SGM should do. Why don’t you tell us what you think they should do. I’d really like to hear your ideas.

  54. I really hate that picture of them lined up in football shirts. Look at them in their exclusive little BFF boys’ club. No women, children or wounded people allowed.

  55. What CJ/SGM leaders knew and what they didn't do to help the victims is as bad as what Joe Paterno knew and didn't do anything about.

    How Mohler can defend Mahaney and condemn Paterno is 'clearly' sickening and 'clearly' unbiblical, especially since we are talking about pastors. (Couldn't help myself with the 'clearly' motto.)

    Mahaney knows more than what has recently been exposed about abuse in SGM churches. He is as much to blame as anyone for continued abuse by perpetrators. It is quite convenient that he has used other men to be the front men (most of them have left SGM now, can't imagine why) and he has run to Louisville. I am disgusted!!

  56. Such courage on display in that courtroom…ripples I believe are happening in the greater evangelical community. Light is shining in the very dark places. There is more to come. There’s movement towards holding Baptist and other churches/institutions accountable through the courts…all I can say for now.

    Keep it up Deebs!

    All the heavy lifting was done by bloggers.

    http://t.co/1H0vDZY5Fx

  57. dee wrote:

    Please add Denny Burk, Tim Challies, and John Folmar along with a well known pastor in the Raleigh area whose name we cannot say since we are obligated to keep our email confidential.

    Please don’t forget to include John MacArthur, Grace Community Church and The Master’s Seminary on that list.

    JM has had CJ speak at Resolved Conferences, Shepherds’ Conferences and other events over many years. Despite his denouncement of charismaticism last year at the Strange Fire Conference, JM remains a friend and supporter of CJ.

    And let’s not forget that the common denominator of the Anchored Conference speakers is in fact JM and TMC:

    http://anchoredconference.org/speakers.html

    JM owes his church and the rest of the Church a confession, an explanation and an apology. If he is The Senior Elder/Pastor of American Evangelicalism, he ought to set an example for the rest of his colleagues by offering public repentance for public sin. The facts are no longer in dispute. He can’t sit this one out.

  58. dee wrote:

    pcapastor wrote:
    “Like my brother-in-law, Grant Layman, I knew that these things were happening in my church and I covered them up. Not only am I responsible, but I am complicit and guilty and will turn myself into the authorities in the State of Maryland, submitting to the justice system.”
    On Monday, I will go over some of the testimony. It would seem to me that this latter statement is more and more probable. There were some interesting things that were said and even more, some things that were said when prompted by the Defense Attorney which is fascinating. We know that the CLC pastoral staff was apprised in 2007 of Morales. This is significant. Very, very important. None of them reported this. Guess where i am going…more on Monday.

    Wow. The sworn, legal testimony itself counts 1000x more than anything Mark Dever, Al Mohler, Lig Duncan et al could say about their “sense” of his “integrity.” It is vital that the sworn, legal testimony be reported on far and wide.

  59. Jenny wrote:

    dee wrote:
    Please add Denny Burk, Tim Challies, and John Folmar along with a well known pastor in the Raleigh area whose name we cannot say since we are obligated to keep our email confidential.
    Please don’t forget to include John MacArthur, Grace Community Church and The Master’s Seminary on that list.
    JM has had CJ speak at Resolved Conferences, Shepherds’ Conferences and other events over many years. Despite his denouncement of charismaticism last year at the Strange Fire Conference, JM remains a friend and supporter of CJ.
    And let’s not forget that the common denominator of the Anchored Conference speakers is in fact JM and TMC:
    http://anchoredconference.org/speakers.html
    JM owes his church and the rest of the Church a confession, an explanation and an apology. If he is The Senior Elder/Pastor of American Evangelicalism, he ought to set an example for the rest of his colleagues by offering public repentance for public sin. The facts are no longer in dispute. He can’t sit this one out.

    Maybe we should start making a list of the modern “leaders” of American Calvinism who HAVEN’T compromised themselves by their explicit support of the insupportable.

  60. I wonder what’s going to happen with all the great and good who praised and supported CJ. I expect there will some serious damage limitation or back pedalling happening soon.

    Let’s hope they at least have the decency to backpedal. Judging by some of the “stand by your man” responses I’ve seen to Doug Phillips, some people don’t even bother with that and just keep barreling ahead with 100% support.

  61. @ Wisdomchaser:

    I have my doubts. Conspiracy to enable the abuse would have required that the defendant knew about the abuse and helped it to continue, and so could be charges with the offense that occurred after they became aware. Since the earliest complaint appears to be “relatively” recent, I am not sure what could be proved. But I bet that the surprising testimony elicited by the defense attorney may have been for the purpose of setting up something on which to base an appeal (unequal application of justice or something weak like that).

  62. @ Jenny:

    Thanks for this. The first Resolved Conference was held in 2005, and I believe it helped propel Mahaney into the spotlight. Who knew anything about him before that?

  63. @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

    the issue is civil vs. criminal. The Statute of Limitations (SoL, like another S outta Luck) in civil cases is usually fairly short, with the clock starting not much later than discovery by the person suing that they have been harmed. Sexual abuse cases generally have an SoL of 18 y.o. plus 2 years or something similar.

    However, criminal SoLs are typically longer. So the idea of a conspiracy to enable sexual abuse of a child might have a long enough SoL to nab one of the SGM pastors or two. The issue is, who knew, and what abuse happened AFTER they knew and participated in a cover up. If two or more of the pastors were aware, and were aware that the other(s) were aware, then one might could prove a conspiracy that enabled abuse of some child or children, and then perhaps a criminal case could be put together. It would take an enterprising DA and a cooperative grand jury. But if it were me, I would be hauling all of these guys before the grand jury, putting them under oath, subpoena all of their diaries, emails, etc. from the relevant time periods, Get Nate Morales under oath about what they did when they found out about him, etc. If they recommended him to another church where he molested, that may be another bingo on conspiracy to abuse children.

  64. @ An Attorney:

    “Conspiracy to enable the abuse would have required that the defendant knew about the abuse and helped it to continue, and so could be charges with the offense that occurred after they became aware. Since the earliest complaint appears to be “relatively” recent, I am not sure what could be proved.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    well, what about conspiracy to not report the abuse.

    Or, conspiracy to keep the abuse a secret.

    Is 1992 recent?

  65. Nancy wrote:

    This one I know about seems to have all the makings of somebody with a whole lot of ambition. So maybe dissing the Deebs was part of his initiation requirements to be part of the gang. Just saying.

    🙂

  66. Deb wrote:

    @ Jenny:
    Thanks for this. The first Resolved Conference was held in 2005, and I believe it helped propel Mahaney into the spotlight. Who knew anything about him before that?

    I was aware of Mahaney long before then – he had links with certain UK “new” church groupings back when SGM was known as People of Destiny International. Guess what – those groups have a reputation for authoritarianism and heavy shepherding.

  67. @ An Attorney: The testimony revealed the CLC pastoral team were made aware of the abuse in 2007. They did not report it. Since it involved the team, could this not point to a conspiracy to keep the abuse from being discovered?

  68. Thank you for the coverage, Deebs, and I’m really grateful for many commenters here and their collective wisdom.

    pcapastor – my relationship with the PCA is cranky at best and has been for several years now, but your posts are an encouragement to me in the very best sense.

    The victims are in my thoughts this evening. What brave strong souls they are.

    I think we need a countdown clock to tick away the hours (and I’m thinking it will stretch to days and weeks) when we hear the words “we were wrong” and “forgive us” from the sorry wretches who have enabled SGM/CLC and the Ceej to this very day.

    The list of these enabler$ is so so very long. 🙁

  69. @ elastigirl:
    The issue is that while failure to report is a crime, it is not one with the longer SoL of actual abuse. I do not know what the relevant SoLs are in that jurisdiction, but that would dictate. That is why a conspiracy to enable abuse, which could carry the same SoL as abuse itself, is a more interesting charge to contemplate. Just one person in the bunch recorded as writing or saying “hey, if we don’t report this, he is just going to continue to abuse, and all we are doing is making that easier for him” could be sufficient basis for a criminal charge of conspiracy to abuse.

  70. @ Nancy:
    I have so many stories, including those of sad, little men who believe their role in life is to “report”things that meanie bloggers say. There are a few people over there who need to grow a pair. One of these days I will be able to talk about some things and eyebrows will raise.

    Now, back to character assassination and writing “report to pastor” tweets. Gosh darn little tools.

  71. Hester wrote:

    I wonder what’s going to happen with all the great and good who praised and supported CJ. I expect there will some serious damage limitation or back pedalling happening soon.
    Let’s hope they at least have the decency to backpedal. Judging by some of the “stand by your man” responses I’ve seen to Doug Phillips, some people don’t even bother with that and just keep barreling ahead with 100% support.

    Yes, it’s possible that they won’t say anything, or they will continue to support CJ, maybe even make Layman the fall guy and claim that CJ knew nothing. I think this is where the blogosphere (including our hosts) has a role. If this scandal isn’t allowed to be forgotten, it might force them to do say something.

    I’m also wondering if we can expect a tearful confession from CJ to either ignorance or inaction, and then he’ll continue as if nothing has happened, having been praised by his fellow Calvinistas.

  72. Nancy wrote:

    dee wrote:
    Please add Denny Burk, Tim Challies, and John Folmar along with a well known pastor in the Raleigh area whose name we cannot say since we are obligated to keep our email confidential. He accused the Deebs of being guilty of character assassination when we begged him in 2009 to talk to Mahaney (whom he liked and has visited SGM churches)about the evident problems.
    I wonder now- does he think the courts inMaryland are assassinating characters as well?
    I do know of one well known pastor in the North Raleigh, North Durham, Chapel Hill, Cary, Brier Creek and Blue Ridge area who is palsy with that bunch, and who recently hired a guy from our local SBC mega as an executive pastor (whatever that is). This one I know about seems to have all the makings of somebody with a whole lot of ambition. So maybe dissing the Deebs was part of his initiation requirements to be part of the gang. Just saying.

    There’s a couple of them….but only one or two that I’d narrow down as critical of Dee (and I shutter when I think of who they are especially given their appearance) Wolves in sheeps clothing?

  73. Random thoughts:

    1. This is a little bit of justice, long overdue. I hope there is more to come.

    2. Ironically, JMac’s blog these days is serving up “recipe for discernment” posts. But is as ever silent about the huge problem of sexual abuse and a failure to report it by those he counts as colleagues.

    3. I wonder if this opens the possibility of civil action against those who knew about but refused to report these crimes, and even covered them up.

    4. This phenomenon of abuse is sickening, but not new. It probably happens more than we know. Just google the name Donn Ketcham and ABWE for a sordid story of sexual abuse and its cover-up by an entire organization. For decades. Put a predator in an organization that lacks the moral courage to report them and throw them out and you have the perfect storm every time.

    5. If these alleged leaders can ignore and cover up actions as sinful and illegal as child sexual abuse, what other evils are they capable of hiding? Almost nothing would surprise me at this point.

  74. Ian wrote:

    I’m also wondering if we can expect a tearful confession from CJ to either ignorance or inaction

    My first reaction is that this reaction would be classic Ceej: a showy attention-seeking display of Faux Humility (TM) at its finest.

    In fact, as with most manipulative bullying narcissists, I’d imagine he’s itching to do just this. And then go straight back to business-as-usual in, say, 3-6 months when this blows over.

    Assisted of course by his buddies Big Al, Kev, Timmy and the rest of the gang who will commence their support afresh, calling anyone who attempts to hold the Ceej accountable as “bitter,” “unbiblical,” and “ungospelicious.”

    With Carolyn and the girlz cheering madly from the sidelines, naturally.

    But the legal risks continue to be too high for him to say much of anything. Am envisioning there’s an army of lawyers keeping him on lockdown for this exact reason.

  75. pcapastor wrote:

    Maybe we should start making a list of the modern “leaders” of American Calvinism who HAVEN’T compromised themselves by their explicit support of the insupportable.

    IMO that’s a short list. :-\

  76. pcapastor wrote:

    Maybe we should start making a list of the modern “leaders” of American Calvinism who HAVEN’T compromised themselves by their explicit support of the insupportable.

    Serious question for the Deebs and the TWW community: where is Tim Keller on all this? My observation is that he’s stayed mum to date.

    Any links/reports/quotations from Keller, or even confirmed TGC appearances, would be appreciated.

    Am sure as in all things the community here will have opinions about Keller and TGC, which are of interest and value, too – but I’ve been trying to figure him out on the SGM/CLC mess for some time, so any documentation or other resources would be great.

  77. dee wrote:

    @ Nancy:
    I have so many stories, including those of sad, little men who believe their role in life is to “report”things that meanie bloggers say.

    “I’LL TELL MOMMY!!!!!
    I’LL TELL MOMMY!!!!!
    NYAAH NYAAH NYAAH NYAAAAH-NYAAH!!!!!!”

  78. An Attorney wrote:

    Just one person in the bunch recorded as writing or saying “hey, if we don’t report this, he is just going to continue to abuse, and all we are doing is making that easier for him” could be sufficient basis for a criminal charge of conspiracy to abuse.

    Which is why in Russian Bureaucracy, you NEVER write anything down. If it’s not written down It Never Happened AND YOU CAN’T EVER PROVE IT DID! NYAAAAAH!!!

  79. Ian wrote:

    People of Destiny International.

    People of Destiny(TM)?
    Modest, weren’t they?

    Guess what – those groups have a reputation for authoritarianism and heavy shepherding.

    I was in the fringes of a shepherding movement some 40 years ago. The damage is still there. I can’t imagine what being at the center of the shepherding/brainwashing would be like except maybe 1984 or North Korea.

  80. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    If it’s not written down It Never Happened AND YOU CAN’T EVER PROVE IT DID! NYAAAAAH!!!

    The flip side of that used to be preached to us in health care. Be sure to write it down, because if you don’t write it down it never happened.

  81. While the TGC guys haven’t had anything to say about the Morales case (or verdict!), they did find the time to publish a glowing review of Carolyn’s latest book. Interesting timing.

  82. @ Rafiki:

    Almost positive tim has stayed mum. I don’t know the man, but he does not seem to insert himself into conflicts/controversy. In many ways, it’s a virtue….from hearing him preach/speak many times, from talking to other redeemer pastors, etc., he is a big tent kind of guy who seems to get the big picture of the gospel. Don’t think he’s a particularly big tribalist. Again, most times it’s a virtue, in this instance, I’m not so sure…

  83. Bridget wrote:

    How Mohler can defend Mahaney and condemn Paterno is ‘clearly’ sickening and ‘clearly’ unbiblical, especially since we are talking about pastors.

    It’s BECAUSE we are talking about Pastors(TM).

    “ONE OF US!
    ONE OF US!
    GOOBLE! GOBBLE!
    ONE OF US!”
    — Todd Browning, Freaks

  84. @ TW:

    For the love of all that is good and holy, that is (one) of the most disturbing videos I’ve seen out of the SGM/CLC Borg. Never viewed it before. Am sorry I viewed it, especially on this day.

    It really is straight out of North Korea.

  85. Interesting:

    Tim Challies writes a post “proving” that Theresa of Avila is a false teacher. However, Professor Gabarino, a professor history, points out in a comment that Challies essentially regurgitated Wikipedia and did not cite it. Challies moderator call the professor a “contrarian troll” and deletes his comment. As of the time of this comment, the post stands, with no citation.

    Even funnier, it appears that Wikipedia is the latest in Reformed theological textbooks.

    http://reflectionandchoice.org/2014/05/15/having-standards-makes-you-a-troll/

    http://www.hbu.edu/Choosing-HBU/Academics/Colleges-Schools/School-of-Humanities/Departments/Department-of-History-and-Great-Texts/Faculty/Collin-Garbarino.aspx

  86. @ dee:
    Yes, this is the Challies who did not wish to learn about the abuse details because it was bad for time management. i guess links take mite as well.

  87. Ian wrote:

    I’m also wondering if we can expect a tearful confession from CJ to either ignorance or inaction, and then he’ll continue as if nothing has happened, having been praised by his fellow Calvinistas.

    Assuming for a moment that CJ was entirely ignorant, there are still severe ramifications in my mind.
    1) A leader that is ignorant of continued serial predation is not qualified to be a leader, church context or otherwise. This would imply an institutional culture that enables this kind of silence/coverup, which CJ would certainly have to take some responsibility for.
    2) An elder is supposed to be “above any accusation” and “well thought of by outsiders”. If Paul’s words are taken as normative, CJ is no longer qualified to be an elder.
    3) An upright and innocent man, upon hearing of a serial child predation case involving his church(es), would immediately recuse himself from ministry, publicly announce his support of any victims and cooperation with law enforcement, and stay out of the ministry until everything was cleared up. The fact that CJ has done basically the opposite is just shameful. I expect a person of his age, especially a minister, to act like a man of integrity. Or lacking that, to at least act like a man.

  88. elastigirl wrote:

    with or without placard?

    With. Definitely with. I’m trying to decide on something short, pithy and as accurate as possible. You know, something like “CJ Mahaney’s Church Covered Up Child Abuse”. The lawyer in me also wants to carry a half-page flyer listing links interested parties can look up to confirm what I’m saying.

  89. anne wrote:

    @ elastigirl: By “warm” I think she meant torches and pitchforks.

    Actually, since it’s Phoenix in June, it’s quite toasty here, even after sunset. No pitchforks and torches required, just the heat of good old Mr. Sun. Anyone coming here from some other part of the country is going to find that just going outside is a broiling experience.

  90. Some notes from the webpage (cited below) Palmer claims that the church’s pastoral team tried covering it up:

    In fact, during Morales’ trial this week, public defender Alan Drew asked Pastor Grant Layman: “Did you have an obligation to report the alleged abuse?”

    Layman replied: “I believe so.”

    Drew fired back: “And you didn’t?”

    Layman answered: “No…we didn’t know.”

    Cook adds: “Certainly I think there are people in Covenant Life Church that have a bit to answer for. They left this predator on the street when they had knowledge, and ultimately they’ll have to answer to that, whether it be to the courts, or whether it be to God.”

    ….

    Officials said in a statement following the verdict Thursday that “the abuse was not reported until 2009, when Detective Sally Magee was informed, despite awareness of the abuse among the church leaders.”
    ….

    Morales faces up to 85 years in prison.

    Authorities said he is scheduled to be sentenced on Aug.14.

    Read more: http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/05/nathaniel-morales-of-covenant-life-church-convicted-of-sexually-abusing-young-boys-103175.html#ixzz31pHL7T00
    Follow us: @ABC7News on Twitter | WJLATV on Facebook

  91. A Cowbird laid an egg in the House Finch nest that’s in the wreath on my front door. When the Cowbird laid its egg, it pushed out one of the five Finch eggs to make room for its own, a typical behavior.

    The Cowbird is parasitic meaning it doesn’t build it’s own nest or raise its own young. It depends upon a host nest to do all the incubating and to feed its chicks.

    The Cowbird is known to act out in what’s been called ‘retaliatory mafia behavior’ if the host bird catches on and rejects the Cowbird egg(s). The Cowbird will return to the host’s nest and destroy it if it finds one of its eggs was removed or tampered with.

    Cowbirds are known to use well over a 100 different variety of birds as hosts, and in almost every case a Cowbird egg poses a threat to the lives of the host’s chicks. Also, not all birds feed Cowbirds the type of food (insects) they need to thrive.

    I think the Mahaney’s are like Cowbirds; they appear to study the nests of others and look for ones they can lay their “eggs” in.

    CLC/SGM used to be their comfortable nest. Like the Cowbird whose rapid growth allows their chicks to out-compete the host’s chicks for food and space in the nest, the Mahaney’s quickly grew and unabashedly forced others out while pretending the nest they inhabited belonged exclusively to them.

    After Brent’s Docs were released and people started investigating, asking questions, looking askance at the Mahaney’s, CJ & Carolyn quickly sought out a new nest and were safely incubated at CHBC, and they were received without question (the only way or they’ll retaliate) as though they were Good Eggs.

    CHBC provided for the Mahaney’s welfare long enough for them to make the flight to Louisville, where they settled into the nest of AL Mohler & the SBTS. Even though men like Al Mohler were forewarned, they chose not to listen and received them like they were birds of a feather, happy to flock together.

    Are they receiving enough nourishment and attention there in Louisville? It doesn’t appear they are, certainly not to the level of their liking.

    One thing is for sure: The Mahaney’s can’t survive without a host.

    Now that Morales is convicted, no one wants the Mahaney’s and their rotten eggs.

  92. Acg116 wrote:

    Sadly, I’m looking at all of tgc with a jaundiced eye, which is a shame because there are undoubtedly some fine writers and pastors over there. If they find the time to blog about world vision, but not this, what are we to think about them?

    Good question, and it faces all of us who blog. Because if I blog in the tongues of men and angels, but have no love, I’m nothing but a glorified CD-player. And if I see a brother or sister in need and do nothing for them, how can I claim to have love?

    I think it’s high time we in the Church at large took a long hard look at what we consider “great” preaching or teaching. Without a great example in word and deed, great oratory is mere deception. And I use the “D-word” on purpose – I’ve watched committed and zealous young men throw away their character and integrity for the love of someone’s slick oratory and flesh-pleasing leadership.

  93. dee wrote:

    Tim Challies writes a post “proving” that Theresa of Avila is a false teacher. However, Professor Gabarino, a professor history, points out in a comment that Challies essentially regurgitated Wikipedia and did not cite it. Challies moderator call the professor a “contrarian troll” and deletes his comment.

    Just the usual, of course, though it’s sad that it is increasingly prevalent. Rebuke a wise man and he will love you for it; the converse is also true.

  94. Paula wrote:

    One thing is for sure: The Mahaney’s can’t survive without a host.

    What do parasites do when there are no more hosts?

  95. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    3) An upright and innocent man, upon hearing of a serial child predation case involving his church(es), would immediately recuse himself from ministry, publicly announce his support of any victims and cooperation with law enforcement, and stay out of the ministry until everything was cleared up. The fact that CJ has done basically the opposite is just shameful. I expect a person of his age, especially a minister, to act like a man of integrity. Or lacking that, to at least act like a man.

    Remember Boz T of GRACE?
    During his time as a prosecutor specializing in child sex abuse cases, he said he NEVER saw a minister accompany a victim to court; they ALWAYS accompanied and supported the perp. ALWAYS.

  96. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Oddly enough, though, and somewhat off-topic, I looked up the stuff on Theresa of Avila. She’d certainly be considered a great worshipper in UK charismatic circles, where the achievement of an emotionally deeply aroused state is a primary goal and is widely believed to be “the presence of God”.

  97. Paula, what you wrote is so true! That just about exactly sums up Mahaney’s career.

  98. <blockquote.I think it’s high time we in the Church at large took a long hard look at what we consider “great” preaching or teaching. Without a great example in word and deed, great oratory is mere deception.

    Four words: Triumph of the Will.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_of_the_will
    Foreign witnesses to the events covered described them as “a Revival meeting.”

  99.   __

    “Conviction Rejoicing  Goings On?”

    hmmm…

    Don’t kid yourself…Dee continues her praying late into the night for sex abuse victims with tears running down her cheeks.

    Fellas’, lead follow or get outa da way…

    🙁

  100. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    A little off subject or not, I read that article by Challies and I feel the terribly immediate urge to say that his statement “Protestants have long held to the doctoring of sola scriptura

  101. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Nancy wrote:

    A little off subject or not, I read that article by Challies and I feel the terribly immediate urge to say that his statement “Protestants have long held to the doctoring of sola scriptura

    continuing from where I so rudely interrupted myself:

    His comment “Protestants have long held to the doctrine of sola scripture (sic)—Scripture alone.” is misleading. What he should have said is that some protestants hold to the doctrine of sola scriptura. I hope that he was merely careless or perhaps did not do his homework before making this statement. The only other possibility was some deliberate attempt to be deceptive. Surely not.

    He should have known this, however, since this was the core issue in the conservative resurgence in the SBC. It was their hill on which to die. The battle for the bible and all that.

  102. Sad that churches a church leadership and networks can't be trusted to do the right thing regarding sexual abuse. Great that gospel coalition celebrity preachers' stars are falling due to their partiality and complicity in all this mess, and that churches and denominations, such as the SBC are being sued for enabling sexual predators. I am reminded of the big dollars the Florida Baptist Convention (SBC) paid 12.5 million dollars for a victim of abuse. May more tithe money go to the victims. Hit them where it hurts since as celebrity preachers they always ask "where's the money." And this is something they understand.

  103. @ Ian:

    It’s been a while, but we have researched Mahaney’s British connections. We stumbled upon his relationship with Terry Virgo, etc. back in 2010. Here is one of our older posts:

    Together on a Mission or Together for the Gospel

    Are Christian conferences just an American phenomenon? Across the pond in jolly old England, Christian leaders can attend a conference that involves “teaching” and “worship”. This annual event held in Brighton is designed primarily for Christian leaders, but welcomes students and twenty-somethings. Incredibly, 5,000 delegates from 50 nations attend this annual conference.

    According to the official website, (http://www.newfrontierstogether.org/Group/Group.aspx?ID=102585) the four-day event is comprised of two conferences which combine some sessions: Leadership International for those attendees with a leadership role in church and Mobilese for students and those in their twenties.

    C.J. Mahaney knows all about this conference because he was the keynote speaker at Mobilese in 2005, which we believe is the year this event first began.

    And the name of the conference is — drum roll please…TOGETHER ON A MISSION.

    Wait a minute! That sounds an awful lot like TOGETHER FOR THE GOSPEL, which held its first conference in Louisville the following year (2006). Hmmm……

    My purpose in sharing this information is to explain where I believe the concept of “Together for the Gospel” originated. In other words, I believe the Fab Four are what some of us call “copycats”.

    I didn't have all my facts straight in this post, so Terry Virgo's friend and administrator added this information in a comment under the post:

    As Terry Virgo’s close friend of 40+ years and his administrator for 30 years and, in that capacity, the organiser of TOAM I thought you may like a bit more history. We began the Newfrontiers Leaders Conferences in 1996 (I think!) and held them in alternate years until the highly successful Stoneleigh Bible Week ended in 2001 (28,000 attended that year living in tents and trailers/caravans). We then launched what has become TOAM as a combined conference between Christian Leaders and Younger people – a rich and highly effective mix!

  104. @ Ian:

    Dee and I have been writing about Mahaney and SGM for over five years, and we have no intentions of stopping.  There's much more news to report now, and we believe it's our duty to our readers to keep them informed.

  105. CJ has no clothes. . . but when he does, they are the clothes of a middle schooler. Sheesh, Ceej! Grow up and dress like a man. Hmmmm. . . dresses like a kid, takes his toys and goes to Louisville just like a kid. . . hmmmm. . . connection?????

  106. And that family gathering at the Thanksgiving table is going to be even more awkward this year. . . . “Pass the potatoes, Grant. . . “No, no! Don’t throw them!”

  107. Dee wrote:

    He likes to pretend that he is some sort of athlete just like he pretends he is some sort of pastor.

    Mahaney wrote a book called Don’t Waste Your Sports (published by Crossway), and here is an excerpt from the book promo on the website.  (Emphasis mine)

    Self-described “pastor athlete” Mahaney looks to Scripture for principles that speak to the role of sports in our lives. This booklet outlines how Christian athletes are to play for the glory of God and model gratitude, humility, and service. With candor and humor, Mahaney recounts his own story with sports and through illustrations and practical applications exhorts athletes not to waste their sports.

  108. Deb & Dee – I wanted to publicly thank you both for your hard work and dedication with this site, and for being there and encouraging me through this process. This site has been a blessing to me over the past few years in getting ready for this trial, and it was so hard not to post and speak out so many times, but now that my trial is over, I can speak freely.

    Yes, I am Jeremy Cook, the same “Another SGM Survivor” that posts on SGMSurvivors, and the outspoken victim on the news the past 2 days.

  109. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    2) An elder is supposed to be “above any accusation” and “well thought of by outsiders”. If Paul’s words are taken as normative, CJ is no longer qualified to be an elder.

    And let’s not forget the taped conversation between C.J. Mahaney and Larry Tomczak where Mahaney blackmails Tomczak. I have said all along that that is a serious enough issue to disqualify Mahaney from being an elder or pastor.

  110. Rafiki wrote:

    For the love of all that is good and holy, that is (one) of the most disturbing videos I’ve seen out of the SGM/CLC Borg. Never viewed it before. Am sorry I viewed it, especially on this day.

    It really is straight out of North Korea.

    I couldn’t watch the whole thing…I was like, “This is SERIOUS? Not a parody? A joke? Where’s ‘Live from New York, it’s Saturday Night!’?”

  111. Deb wrote:

    It’s been a while, but we have researched Mahaney’s British connections. We stumbled upon his relationship with Terry Virgo, etc. back in 2010.

    I remember the CJ/Terry Virgo connection back in the early 80’s at the Downs Bible Week in the UK when I was in a church attached to that outfit.

    CJ and Larry Tomczak were speakers. Virgo had been in the States, and was impressed that when the speakers at big conferences appeared on the platform, the attendees would welcome them with applause, whistles, jumping up and down – like the reaction of a crowd when their team wins the baseball championship or cup final. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with this, and is probably something of a cultural thing, but he got us to do the same thing when the above two appeared. Not very British, don’t you know what!!

    Now I don’t think I am a member of the frozen chosen or was guilty of taking this too seriously, but I wasn’t impressed. On the contrary, it seemed to be putting men on a pedastal, which is unhealthy. A new clergy/laity divide, with the former getting increasingly out of touch with what was going on amongst the latter. It’s funny how the memory of this has stayed with me – long after moving on from Virgo &Co.

    Out of this rather minor kind of incident a mentality of Christian celebrity preachers and leaders emerged, with, in the context of this thread, devastating consequences.

  112. @ Deb:

    The twisted concept of “relational restoration” about which Wade has written is one of the most anti-Christian ideas I’ve ever seen invading the church. Consider: Jesus took the cross, a man-made means of inflicting suffering and death, and turned it into a source of freedom and life. “Relational restoration” takes a God-given source of freedom and life (that is, forgiveness), and turns it into a means of inflicting suffering and enslavement.

  113. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    The twisted concept of “relational restoration” about which Wade has written…

    I should clarify for any new folk: Wade has written a strong critique of “relational restoration”, not a guide on how to do it..!

  114. @ Deb:

    Ah yes, the Wayne Grudem song ‘n’ dance love fest video.

    Really folks, Grudem is just a guy who put together a helpful (NOT!) checklist of 4,997 ways for women to be properly submissive. It ain’t like he’s a Nobel prize winner, so skip the cheesy musical tributes, mmmmkay?

    :)

    Deb, know you’re just having your first cup of a.m. coffee, but are there any overnight updates on if Big Al and Ceej’s cadre of neo-Cal fanboys have put out any public comments showing the least bit of contrition following yesterday’s court ruling?

    Not that I’m exactly holding my breath that they will do any such thing. Curious minds want to know!

  115. Rafiki wrote:

    Deb, know you’re just having your first cup of a.m. coffee, but are there any overnight updates on if Big Al and Ceej’s cadre of neo-Cal fanboys have put out any public comments showing the least bit of contrition following yesterday’s court ruling?

    Why, yes I am having my first cup of coffee. (Dee – loving my new Cuisinart coffee maker that you recommended. Mine also dispenses hot water for tea and such. 😉 )

    Nothing on Mohler's Twitter feed. He's been indisposed with The Gospel Coalition's Council meeting for three days this week and preparing for the SBTS graduation that takes place today. So much going on in Louisville. The Calvinista machine rolls on…

  116. @ Deb:

    Big Al: $o busy $incerely $hepherding the next generation, he I$! 🙂

    Tell me about this Cuisinart of yours – here in coffee heaven (thus fully justifying the Roman-era moniker Arabia Felix), I feel as if I need a better machine to do honor to the local beans.

    Am looking for recommendations, perhaps can pick one up next time I pass through Todd Wilhelm’s fair city. 🙂

  117. Another SGM Suvivor wrote:

    Deb & Dee – I wanted to publicly thank you both for your hard work and dedication with this site, and for being there and encouraging me through this process. This site has been a blessing to me over the past few years in getting ready for this trial, and it was so hard not to post and speak out so many times, but now that my trial is over, I can speak freely. Yes, I am Jeremy Cook, the same “Another SGM Survivor” that posts on SGMSurvivors, and the outspoken victim on the news the past 2 days.

    It's a privilege having you as part of our TWW community. I watched the news clip in which you were interviewed (which I'm including in today's post), and I am so grateful that you broke your silence and testified at the trial this week. I'm sure it was extremely painful to recount those traumatic experiences from your youth, but you have rescued others from suffering a similar fate.

    Let's do lunch soon! Just e-mail us or give us a call on the Wartburg Watch hotline. 😉

    Blessings to you and your loved ones, Jeremy. You are our hero!

  118. @ Deb:
    Funny thing, CJ never played as part of a team so how does he qualify as an athlete aside from reading the papers and playing golf? Guess he tries to pass off his “passion” as though he possesses actual athletic gifting, similar to what he’s done with his “Cross-Centered” life, which Al Mohler certainly bought into.

    Mahaney is a passionate and gifted commentator on sports because he says so. He’s also a passionate and gifted commentator on the Christian Life because he says so, that is, as long as he’s asking the questions and providing the commentary. Don’t question him, however. He doesn’t want you to find out the truth.

    Speaking of the truth, CJ wished for a son and several years after his 3 daughters were born, they were surprised when Chad came along. Carolyn had raised & home schooled the girls pretty much single-handedly, but since Chad was a boy, in typical patriarchy fashion, it was expected that CJ would step up his parenting game and take on the task of training & discipling his son so he’d become a man. It appears this “training” was primarily focused on combining sports w/Mahaney’s ideas of humility, which were used to groom Chad for leadership and to make him a standout on the soccer field and secondarily, the golf course.

    The Mahaney’s sent Chad to Cedarville University where he, apparently, played some soccer. Not sure how long that lasted though. Maybe he was too humble of a player who too often warmed the cheap seat at the edge of the field, taking notes to share with his Dad to add to their Mahaney Sports blog.

    Or maybe there was more to it than that. Maybe Chad didn’t cut it. Perhaps it affected his pride more than his humility. Instead of ending up Team Captain, able to lead the Team to success through the application of all the leadership skillz his father had taught him, perhaps he was just “one of the guys” – a untenable position for him to maintain and too much a blow to the Mahaney ego.

    Perhaps academics, too, proved to be a challenge. It is claimed his mother, who home schooled him, was an “honor student” in high school, but anyone who has seen her speak and observed the manner in which she sticks like glue to her notes knows that Carolyn Mahaney’s intellect is not that strong. Her books are as ghostwritten as her husband’s. It would be so telling to observe her questioned and asked to defend her “Biblical Womanhood” theologically, and without her being given the questions beforehand that she answers by reading from her notecards that she had help preparing. She not only couldn’t do it, she wouldn’t do it. Two reasons: She’s a woman. She may have entered the public domain with her books & teachings and we have the right to question her and call her to account, but she would hide behind her husband and claim everything she teaches was first submitted to him before she went public with it – sorta like the clothes she wears, right? According to CJ, everything his wife wears first meets with his approval, and surely the same must hold true for every word she speaks. Secondly, she’s a good Mennonite and as such she remains separate from the world and doesn’t engage in the ‘politics’ of the ‘world’ or the debates which take place in the public arena. She’s too sanctified and keeps herself pure, and her countertops undefiled.

    So, what happened to Chad Mahaney and Cedarville University? Seems he quietly dropped out. Maybe it’s because he wasn’t one of the Big Dawgs and Team Leader which, under such careful tutelage as he no doubt received from Mr. Gifted, that would be a concern. We’d hate to hear of young Mahaney suffering from degiftedness. Or maybe it was the academics? As the only offspring to go to college I’m sure the expectation wasn’t too high, but perhaps in an effort to justify his unremarkable achievement he pulled out, and the Mahaney’s used the whole issue of “females teaching male students” at Cedarville as an excuse? (Cedarville has recently cracked down on this issue becoming strict in their practice of “complementarianism” and barred women from teaching positions they has before – coincidence?) And if that’s true and the Mahaney’s withdrew Chad to rescue him from the feminism in the atmosphere* he was breathing into his pure lungs that would rather be huffin’ the hemp, then why hasn’t he returned?

    Oh well, so much for the dreams of the pastor/athlete who expected his son to be a star as well. Or maybe the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree?

  119. *feminism in the atmosphere – something the Mahaney’s used to talk about, the cure being removing women from all positions of leadership and giving Carolyn the career of writing books, speaking at conferences, conducting seminars, leading the Women’s Ministry at CLC and SGM in order to enforce upon all the other women the rule that they should stay quiet and stay home.

  120. dee wrote:

    @ mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort:
    No, this was done to honor CJ Mahaney. The sad part of this whole thing is that CJ just looooooooves being honored and feted. And he has gotten a whole bunch of Calvinista men to do it as well.

    All Dance Joyfully with Great Enthusiasm before Comrade Dear Leader! Praise Him! Praise Him! Praise Him!

  121. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    The twisted concept of “relational restoration” about which Wade has written is one of the most anti-Christian ideas I’ve ever seen invading the church.

    Exactly what is “relational restoration” and what is its origin and history?

  122. Paula-
    I googled “Chad Mahaney” “Louisville seminary ” just on a hunch. This is his bio on the sport blog. Maybe this has been mentioned on this blog before. I just assumed he had moved to Louisville and that’s why I googled the seminary – figured he might be there. Not sure how current this info is.

    From the blog:
    “Chad Mahaney is a 19 year old college student and an intern at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Communications Department. He has also interned with national radio host David Stein of the David Stein Show and with author Tony Reinke at Sovereign Grace Ministries.”

  123. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    HUG, if I had to take a stab at your question on “origins” I’d say its a) a perversion of Romans 3:10 “none is righteous, no not one” and b) taking the T in TULIP (total depravity) to its logical extreme.

    Ergo, the victim is on par with the perp.

    That just made my stomach hurt to write. Other thoughts?

  124. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    You got that right. And she relished the spotlight. I’ll never forget the first time I attended a women’s meeting back in 1989 and didn’t know who she was, but two of the pastors wives – Rita Hoover & Karin Layman – both spent time introducing her, and they both fell over each other fawning over Carolyn. Then Carolyn stepped up to the podium and barely acknowledged all the praise that had just been lavished on her. I didn’t know who she was, I had to turn to the woman next to me and ask. My first impression was that she was unexceptional, and it took me a while to see her face because right off the bat, it was buried in her notes.

    Why didn’t I leave then? Gawd. I endured watching that same routine for years afterwards: the fawning adulations, the standing ovations, the excessive adoration. Blah!!

    Where’s my Pepto-Bismol?

    And the thing is, I’m sure it continues unabated at SGCL where now CJ & Carolyn are probably treated like the Suffering Servants, the Persecuted Saints! I’m sure of it!

    Humbly, of course ;-)

  125. @ Still Soarin’:
    I don’t think he’s 19, a college student, or an intern anywhere except maybe at a car dealership – which is fine, not knocking that. That’s great if he’s working selling cars. And maybe I’m wrong but being as showy and celebratory as the Mahaney’s tend to be, you’d think there would have been pictures on the girltalk blog of their trip to Disney World in celebration of his graduation from Cedarville by now. Can’t be the money holding his education up. My hunch is it was the problem of the female professors even though he was home schooled by his Mom.

  126. @ Still Soarin’:
    It’s also possible that he lives at home now in his parent’s basement where he writes for the Mahaney sports blog sometimes in his underwear. Oh, the irony lol!

  127. Still Soarin’ wrote:

    From the blog:
    “Chad Mahaney is a 19 year old college student and an intern at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Communications Department.

    Wonder what experience Junior has to qualify for an internship at SBTS? Whenever I hear about the Chadster I have visions of Jackie Gleason’s son in the film “Smoky and the Bandit”; specifically the scene where they are in the roof-less police car and the son’s sole job is to hold Gleason’s hat on his head.

  128. Another SGM Suvivor wrote:

    Yes, I am Jeremy Cook, the same “Another SGM Survivor” that posts on SGMSurvivors, and the outspoken victim on the news the past 2 days.

    Jeremy
    You are a hero and words cannot express the depth of my admiration for you. You are breaking the barriers of silence in the church; a silence that has covered up child sex abuse for generations. It is only due to the courage that you have shown that a monster is finally in jail and a church has been shown to be despicable in their lack of regard for the children that have been put in their care.

    I plan to do an analysis on Monday. I am of the opinion that this trial was far more reaching than the conviction of one pedophile. I believe that there is more coming down in the near future and I base that on the testimony and statements made afterwards.

    Deb and I have discovered that you are a neighbor and we look forward to getting to know you in the coming weeks. May God continue to be the healer of your pain and may we continue to see justice for the victims in the SGM scandal.

  129. TW wrote:

    And let’s not forget the taped conversation between C.J. Mahaney and Larry Tomczak where Mahaney blackmails Tomczak. I have said all along that that is a serious enough issue to disqualify Mahaney from being an elder or pastor.

    I guess the rules for elders only apply if you are a female…

  130. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Exactly what is “relational restoration” and what is its origin and history?

    As far as I can gather, it’s simply a glorified label given to the practice of forcing the victim to forgive his/her abuser, on the church CEO’s terms. In particular, it involves hushing the crime up and closing it down in-house without involving the police or other outside authority. The goal is invariably to protect the reputation of the religious business and its brand identity. In other words, “relational restoration” stands in opposition to criminal prosecution or any other pursuit of what the law recognises as justice.

  131. @ TW:
    Haha yes, and forgive us for picking on Chucky, as he’s affectionately called. Heck, going public with these remarks is far worse, isn’t it, then when his father took to his public podium back in the early 1990’s and blamed the boys that had been molested by Morales, insinuating they were at fault, making them look bad?

    Maybe if Scott Bates had stepped out of line and threatened to go public with any information he had obtained regarding CJ’s plan to sneak in a bunch of Calvinistic Cowbird eggs around that time, that he wanted to incubate and hatch at CLC without anyone realizing the difference, he would have tried to keep him quiet and threaten to go public with Samuel & Daniel’s molestations. It’s how Mahaney processed the information he obtained on others, and used it against people. But I’m sure the Mahaney’s would frown upon us talking about Chad because “we’re not part of the problem or part of the solution” and besides, only they are allowed to talk about other people and pass judgment on their family matters, degifting people if things don’t measure up. If anyone else talks about them or issues affecting the church it’s a SIN. But for them it’s never gossip, because they use all the information they gather to “care for your souls.” Ask Jeremy Cook how well his soul was cared for by the pastoral team after they found out Morales had molested him. That’s exhibit A for the quality of their “care.”

    After all, all members were instructed to share all information with the pastors and caregroup leaders, which leadership assumed control of and took authority over, filtering out anything that negatively effected the image of CLC’s doctrinal integrity and CJ’s gifted and Godly leadership. Only good fruit was allowed. Bad fruit was covered up and kept hidden. Hard to sell books and franchises and conference seats to people unless they believe the product you’re selling produces the finest fruit, untainted by sin and preserved by the power of the gospelly-gospel.

    Weird how people thought that when they were told to go to the pastors with every care you would receive wise counsel which proceeded from men who were Servants of the Lord, who cared for your souls. Weird how when you spoke to another member and we’re met with the standard response, “Have you shared this with your pastor or caregroup leader?” that when you did, they would help rather than frustrate or hinder the resolution of your concerns?

    It was all about information gathering because for those in leadership, knowledge was power and used as a means of control.

    Servants of the Lord? Um, no. You served them to which they replied, “Thank YOU for serving.”

  132. they love respectful greetings in the marketplace..AND THE MOST IMPORTANT SEATS IN THE SYNAGOGUE….

  133. Another SGM Suvivor wrote:

    This site has been a blessing to me over the past few years in getting ready for this trial, and it was so hard not to post and speak out so many times, but now that my trial is over, I can speak freely.

    Dear Jeremy,

    Thank you so much for all you’ve done. For your courage in bringing this horrific case to trial. For your patience in waiting to comment openly. For your perseverance and willingness to see justice done, no matter how frightening or painful. I hope and pray that you, and all those who suffered at Morales’ hands, will find more and more healing as the years go by, and much joy and friendship in life.

  134. Another SGM Suvivor wrote:

    Deb & Dee – I wanted to publicly thank you both for your hard work and dedication with this site, and for being there and encouraging me through this process. This site has been a blessing to me over the past few years in getting ready for this trial, and it was so hard not to post and speak out so many times, but now that my trial is over, I can speak freely.
    Yes, I am Jeremy Cook, the same “Another SGM Survivor” that posts on SGMSurvivors, and the outspoken victim on the news the past 2 days.

    It feels sort of odd thanking you for your courage in speaking publicly while I maintain my anonymity (though Dee and Deb know who I am)

    Another SGM Suvivor wrote:

    Deb & Dee – I wanted to publicly thank you both for your hard work and dedication with this site, and for being there and encouraging me through this process. This site has been a blessing to me over the past few years in getting ready for this trial, and it was so hard not to post and speak out so many times, but now that my trial is over, I can speak freely.
    Yes, I am Jeremy Cook, the same “Another SGM Survivor” that posts on SGMSurvivors, and the outspoken victim on the news the past 2 days.

    Jeremy,

    It feels kind of odd thanking you for your courage to speak publicly while I maintain my anonymity (though Dee and Deb know who I am), nevertheless THANK YOU FOR YOUR COURAGE! You are, indeed, a hero. May the God of all comfort and strength bless you and your family in every way.

  135. mirele wrote:

    I couldn’t watch the whole thing…I was like, “This is SERIOUS? Not a parody? A joke? Where’s ‘Live from New York, it’s Saturday Night!’?”

    No, sadly, not a parody. It really is shameless brown-nosing set to Broadway show-tune music. I somehow got through the whole number without puking.

    One thing that jumped out at me: in the first half, the poor fawning saps extol C.J. for making sure “psycho-babble got nixed”. I wonder what exactly they meant. I’m assuming Mahaney had spoken out against modern psychology and professional counseling in general. Or does “psycho-babble” mean something more specific?

    Either way, I’m pretty sure that Mahaney et al. denounced psychology purely to impose another form of control over everyone at SGM. They label it as “babble” or “humanism”, so that those who long to be faithful will stay away from professionals, who might see through SGM’s thought reform program. All the more despicable.

  136. Serving Kids in Japan wrote:

    Either way, I’m pretty sure that Mahaney et al. denounced psychology purely to impose another form of control over everyone at SGM. They label it as “babble” or “humanism”, so that those who long to be faithful will stay away from professionals, who might see through SGM’s thought reform program.

    JUST. LIKE. SCIENTOLOGY.

  137. TW wrote:

    Wonder what experience Junior has to qualify for an internship at SBTS? Whenever I hear about the Chadster I have visions of Jackie Gleason’s son in the film “Smoky and the Bandit…

    I have visions of Joffrey being groomed for the Iron Throne.

    Like Chad, his only qualification and experience was being Born into a Royal Family. Birth and Breeding.

  138. Paula wrote:

    Why didn’t I leave then? Gawd. I endured watching that same routine for years afterwards: the fawning adulations, the standing ovations, the excessive adoration. Blah!!

    Elena Ceaucescu of Romania, Power Behind Nicky’s Throne.

    And the thing is, I’m sure it continues unabated at SGCL where now CJ & Carolyn are probably treated like the Suffering Servants, the Persecuted Saints! I’m sure of it!

    Well, that WAS the attitude Elena Ceaucescu copped when the rebels dragged her in front of the AK47s during the 1989 Romanian Revolution…

  139. Paula wrote:

    @ Still Soarin’:
    It’s also possible that he lives at home now in his parent’s basement where he writes for the Mahaney sports blog sometimes in his underwear. Oh, the irony lol!

    Or maybe he manages the SGM Fantasy Football league.

  140. Matthew 18:1-6 Bible Gateway NIV

    At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

    He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.

    Causing to Stumble

    “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

  141. @ dee:

    Thanks for the re-post, Dee 🙂 It’s really sad that the TGC mods apparently have room for comments like “I wish I was a fly on the wall…” and “Does John Piper have a Mac…?” but no room for anything Christ might have to say on the matter…

  142. dee wrote:

    This is a great comment by Sensible which was left under “My comment was deleted” so I added this here.

    I never posted this, but I remember Justin Taylor plugging Bethlehem’s pastoral training program, and I commented something like “Don’t waste your life – or money.” Now, that could be taken as snark against the program, or it could be taken as an encouragement to seek out the program instead of wasting your time getting a college degree in something “secular”. The actually point of my comment was to point out that people should enter into education very carefully and wisely. Well, apparently the comment was taken in the first sense, because it was summarily removed. I lost a lot of respect for the blog admin at that point. Shutting down (imho wise and necessary) conversation because of a possible slight is the definition of insecurity and frankly stupidity. It really woke me up to the fact that open dialogue isn’t really the goal. Disappointing to say the least.

  143. @ dee:

    Update on the post: So I also posted these verses yesterday on TGC’s review page for “True Beauty” shortly after I posted them on the council meeting threads. I was surprised to find that my comment passed moderation on the “True Beauty” page…but now it seems they have removed that too (I guess they finally decided to open their Bibles, and realized my verses contributed nothing to the beauty/modesty/purity conversation). Tolle lege, everyone…

  144. Bridget wrote:

    Joe2 wrote:

    pcapastor wrote:

    “I did not know that this key leader in my church and school was a sexual predator, but I AM RESPONSIBLE NONETHELESS. This happened on my watch, and I am responsible, and I will do everything in my power to make things right with every victim.”

    What would you suggest that he can do to make things right with every victim?

    I can tell you what I think CJ/SGM should do. Why don’t you tell us what you think they should do. I’d really like to hear your ideas.

    pcapastor wrote:

    Joe2 wrote:

    pcapastor wrote:
    “I did not know that this key leader in my church and school was a sexual predator, but I AM RESPONSIBLE NONETHELESS. This happened on my watch, and I am responsible, and I will do everything in my power to make things right with every victim.”
    What would you suggest that he can do to make things right with every victim?

    Pretty much whatever they themselves feel they need in order to move on with their lives in healthy ways. None of the victims that I have read about seem to be vindictive in any way.

    Let’s say the victims claim they each need $100 million to move on with their lives in healthy ways. Who or what entity will enforce compliance with that claim?

  145. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    JUST. LIKE. SCIENTOLOGY.

    I know, right!? I can’t help thinking that Mahaney and his cronies spent half of their time praising their own “biblical” methods of counseling and church discipline, and the other half railing against any other methods for helping people. “How dare any faithful believer go outside God’s church for emotional healing? The Bible (as we interpret it) is all you need!”

    Just like Scientologists claiming to have “The Only™ Workable™ Technology™”. And I hate it when any church starts to resemble Scientology, Inc.

  146. @ Serving Kids in Japan:

    “…the poor fawning saps extol C.J. for making sure “psycho-babble got nixed”. I wonder what exactly they meant.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    I don’t think they really have much of an idea what they mean. they know the buzzwords and the “appropriate” thought and feeling associated with them, and when activated an internal play button is pressed.

  147. dee wrote:

    This is a great comment by Sensible which was left under “My comment was deleted” so I added this here.
    Post: http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2014/05/15/tgc-council-meeting-day-2/
    Time: 5:18 PM
    Comment: Matthew 18:1-6
    In moderation limbo because: TGC just doesn’t like Bible verses…? Figures…

    That’s a fascinating page of pictures. Don’t they all look miserable? If that’s what the gospel ™ does to you, I’d rather be an unbeliever. I did a dance class today (modern dance in the Merce Cunningham style) and I saw far more joy on people’s faces there than I do in those photos.

    And, of course, TGC’s council is a woman-free zone.

  148. Joe2 wrote:

    Let’s say the victims claim they each need $100 million to move on with their lives in healthy ways. Who or what entity will enforce compliance with that claim?

    Dear Joe,

    Pardon my saying so, but you seem to be missing the point. No one (as far as I know) is demanding that Mahaney pay anything that he can’t pay. Though the price he ought to pay might be more than his ego will allow.

    I’m sure it hurts the victims of Morales unspeakably to see Mahaney back-slapping and palling around with the Reformed Big Dogs, and refusing to acknowledge the wrong of his own actions and policies. Those, at least, are matters that he can address.

    He ought to stop cowering behind the 1st Amendment, cooperate fully with the authorities, apologize to each of Morales’ victims personally for his actions, denounce the toxic SGM policies that worsened their suffering, and then agree to never stand in another pulpit or set himself up as a spiritual guru again. I think that would go a long way towards making amends with these men.

  149. Joe2 wrote:

    Let’s say the victims claim they each need $100 million to move on with their lives in healthy ways

    That is arguing from the absurd. Precedent usually is applied.

  150. 8 month pregnant Christian Sudanese woman sentenced to death for her faith in Christ will be executed soon unless God intervenes.

    Her execution was scheduled for today but the timing is now uncertain.

    I know this is off topic but I think it is vital for Christians everywhere to pray for martyrs. This woman is in prison with her 20 month son. Her husband is disabled.

    Please pray for her and her family. Details can be read here: and on many other sites.
    http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/15/world/africa/sudan-christian-woman-apostasy/index.html

  151. @ Paula:

    “… then when his father took to his public podium back in the early 1990′s and blamed the boys that had been molested by Morales, insinuating they were at fault, making them look bad?”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    what…. say again? this really happened?

  152. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    In particular, it involves hushing the crime up and closing it down in-house without involving the police or other outside authority. The goal is invariably to protect the reputation of the religious business and its brand identity. In other words, “relational restoration” stands in opposition to criminal prosecution or any other pursuit of what the law recognises as justice.

    Relational restoration, it it occurs at all, should take place AFTER the criminal prosecution and not before.

  153. Heh. I got banned from commenting on a “Christian” “news” website. Not because I expressed a viewpoint on certain hot-button social issues which isn’t shared by the majority of the commenters there. Nope, it was for calling out the “news” “editor” for not performing journalistic due diligence. The “news” “editor” was basically accusing the White House and Department of State of doing nothing about a tragic situation unfolding in the Sudan, but didn’t bother to call up the press offices for either organization to get a statement. So, yes, I called the “news” “editor” out on it. And I got banned. So touchy, so sensitive. If I did what this person did in my own reports, I’d get yelled at for not conducting a thorough investigation.

  154. Serving Kids in Japan wrote:

    Just like Scientologists claiming to have “The Only™ Workable™ Technology™”. And I hate it when any church starts to resemble Scientology, Inc.

    Folks, when people start comparing your church to Scientology, it is absolutely WAY past time to run to the hills. — signed, your friendly professional Scientology agitator (1995-present)

  155. @ Paula:

    . . . or maybe he’s just not academic. They Mahaneys really never impressed me as such. . . in fact, it was almost an anti-intellectual atmosphere at CLC.

  156. dee wrote:

    That is arguing from the absurd. Precedent usually is applied.

    A couple of points about lawsuits. Usually, huge monetary awards are reduced upon appeal. Not always, but almost universally. Also, a huge monetary award (or the threat of one) can often spur parties into negotiation for a settlement. And finally, it’s likely that CLC carries some sort of insurance which would be tapped for a settlement. So Mahaney, Layman, etc. might not have to pay anything. That would be unfortunate.

  157. @ Joe2:

    A court of law would determine a civil case.

    Are you going to let us know what you think would be an appropriate response from Mahaney etal?

  158. Molly145 wrote:

    Her execution was scheduled for today but the timing is now uncertain.

    I believe that Meriam Ibrahim’s execution will be delayed until after her child is born. Which gives people time to work on securing her freedom. Hopefully continued agitation and storming heaven will give a good result.

    That said…I really have a problem with religious groups which insist that because your parent (or in this case, only the father) is of X religion, then the children must be of X religion, and conversion to another religion** is punishable by death. I’m hard-pressed to think of something more horrible than killing someone over a religious belief. People must have the right to change their mind about something as deeply personal as who they will worship.

    ** In the case of Ms. Ibrahim, it appears that her Muslim father abandoned the family and she was raised by her Christian mother to be a Christian. However, the extremely strict version of Sharia law practiced in Sudan does not recognize this and calls it a conversion, punishable by death. Because Ms. Ibrahim was born a Muslim to a Muslim father…and it’s not anything she has any say over. That’s just crazy to my mind.

  159. @ mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort:

    That’s the way it works in Sudan and a lot of other places where a conservative interpretation of Islamic law is in place – children and women are legally under the authority of the father/husband. Would do Douglas Wilson, Esq. proud.

    Ms. Ibrahim is a Sudanese citizen. What, other than behind-the-scenes and public diplomatic pressure, coordinating closely with international and Sudanese human rights organizations to advocate for Ms. Ibrahim, and issuing strong public statements of condemnation (all of which the USG has done), do people expect the WH and US DoS to do? Send in the Marines?!

    We need to pray earnestly for ALL the victims of the wicked, repressive NCP regime. There are too many to count.

    On another note: welcome from behind the SN, Jeremy! How ’bout that, you live near the Deebs!

  160. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Serving Kids in Japan:
    “…the poor fawning saps extol C.J. for making sure “psycho-babble got nixed”. I wonder what exactly they meant.”
    ++++++++++++++++++
    I don’t think they really have much of an idea what they mean. they know the buzzwords and the “appropriate” thought and feeling associated with them, and when activated an internal play button is pressed.

    It’s called “duckspeak” — reciting The Party Line without engaging any neuron above the brainstem — quack quack quack…

  161. @ Rafiki: thank you for pointing out the facts re. the NCP regime and certain schools of Islamic jurisprudence. I appreciate the way you are clear about this being particular to *some* Muslims, but not representative of all.

    I am so tired of the way the US media misrepresents *all* Muslims; it has done a real number on non-Muslims, presenting them with extremism as the norm.

    Fwiw, my brief contact with Sudanese immigrants (Muslim and xtian) in the D.C. area was *so* contrary to the way Sudanese people (Muslims especially) are generally depicted – ditto for most of the Iranian emigre community, and many, many Arabs (of differing religions) as well. I realize that I don’t have anything like the experience in engaging with people from other countries that you do, but feel a need to state that the folks I met were very friendly and engaging – much more so than many of us Americans. They made me feel at home, and those I worked with (as an ESL tutor) met with me *in* their homes, often with their kids in tow. I really enjoyed that; the women treated me as an honorary “auntie,” as did the teenage girls I worked with. Needless to say, I miss them very much.

  162. numo wrote:

    I appreciate the way you are clear about this being particular to *some* Muslims, but not representative of all.

    Yes. Referring to all “muslims” as the same makes about as much sense as referring to all “christians” as the same.

  163. numo wrote:

    Needless to say, I miss them very much.

    I am sure you do, Auntie Numo. 🙂 And I am guessing the friends in DC who were brought into your life miss you very much in return.

    As you’ve picked up on, I am not a fan of the American evangelical and American media meme of good guys (Christians) vs. bad guys (Muslims) that grossly oversimplify the near-incomprehensible complexities of Sudan/South Sudan.

    The white hat/black hat view leads to increased polarization between, if not the outright dehumanization of, entire groups of people. It is then used to justify hatreds of the worst kind. What speck of good does that do, pray tell? None.

  164. @ Rafiki: amen to your views – and multiply that by the number of countries (including cultures within cultures) that are predominantly Muslim, and you get a mindbogglingly complex picture. Not unlike, say, what you get when you look at all the different strains of xtianity and cultures within cultures where xtianity is prevalent, or, at very least, has long had a place. 😉

    A few years ago I started watching Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo music vifs (of songs, not liturgy or church services) and I got slammed by this simple fact: most other xtians in the world (the vast majority of xtians, in fact) neither know nor care about what white American evangelicals think. American xtians could disappear from the planet in a split second, and… The church universal would just keep going without missing a beat. That’s both startling, deeply unsettling and -ultimately – very freeing, I think.

  165. O@ numo: bids, not vifs. There are a ton of them on YouTube, made in Ethiopia and in immigrant communities around the world.

  166. anon wrote:

    I did a dance class today (modern dance in the Merce Cunningham style) and I saw far more joy on people’s faces there than I do in those photos.

    Know ye not that dancing is sinful, of the flesh, and brings no glory to god?

  167. @ Rafiki: as a P.S., I chose to live in a ‘hood where there were immigrants from all over the world. It was by no means the most expensive or fanciest part of Arlington County, but it was much more down-home than most other ‘hoods. That suited me just fine!

  168. @ anon: sounds like a very nifty class, anon!

    Just curious (though very off-topic): do American modernists have much influence on dance in the UK? I’ll admit to being somewhat surprised re. a Cunningham I style class… (Am not a dancer, just an enthusiast.)

  169. @ elastigirl:
    Yes, I’ve read two different accounts of this having happened. I started attending CLC in late 1989, after Morales was gone and the incidences involved in this court case occurred.

    There were people there, however, who heard this. There has got to be more. I want more details. This makes me feel so angry. I cannot imagine how the parents of these boys would have felt at the time, hearing something like this being said about the situation from the pulpit, assuming they knew at the time what had happened to their boys and it having been reported to those in leadership.

    It would have ENRAGED ME.

  170. @ Paula: she was married to the last Communist dictator of Romania, and very much complicit with him in crimes against humanity.

    Am sure you can find *plenty* on their fall (etc.) via a cursory Google search.

  171. numo wrote:

    I got slammed by this simple fact: most other xtians in the world (the vast majority of xtians, in fact) neither know nor care about what white American evangelicals think.

    Yep, “got slammed” by this as well Numo. Who are the outsiders, the “other” in this paradigm, hmmmm? Pondering this can really stop you in your tracks, no?

    Ethiopian music is just such a unique and wonderful thing. And taken very seriously by the whole nation!

  172. I must say, I also find it mind boggling that Dick Wolohan took his son Daniel with him to visit Morales while he was at teen challenge. I do not understand this. At. All.

  173. @ numo:
    Oh I’m so glad you know all about her numo and so good of you to offer that advice. I was joking around with HUG, Btw. But thanks, I’ve never heard of Google either.

  174. @ Paula:
    I really don’t know all about her; just remembering the flood of news about the horrors of their regime (not to mention their summary execution) in 1989 and for some Yeats after…

  175. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    It’s called “duckspeak” — reciting The Party Line without engaging any neuron above the brainstem — quack quack quack…

    Indeed. Off topic, but I have a pipe-dream… that whenever a UK cabinet minister trots out the phrase “It’s only right that jobseekers work for their benefits”, everybody within earshot quacks back at him.

  176. Z@ Rafiki: the “others,” indeed!

    We aren’t really taught much about other countries and cultures in school (let alone competence in other languages), which plays into all those myths about the innate superiority of the American Way, imo.

    But see, my dad was captain of various merchant ships, and his work rarely took him to European ports. His abiding interest in other cultures (mostly Japan and overseas Chinese) sparked my imagination when I was small, and has never left me.

  177. Muff Potter wrote:

    Know ye not that dancing is sinful, of the flesh, and brings no glory to god?

    Far more to the point, I personally derive no pleasure from dancing. Thus, like cucumber and uncooked tomato, it is not of God.

  178. @ Paula: yes, I get that now, but didn’t pick it up at all in your initial comment.

    Fwiw, I don’t see his references to dictators as esoteric, though per lots of other things, absolutely yes.

    Keep in mind that there are indeed folks who come here who were born after all of those events and who know nothing of them… Sometimes folks really *don’t* have those points of reference, and I mistakenly assumed you might be one of them. Cool? 🙂

  179. @ Paula: look, I’m having trouble understanding what is going on here. Could you help me out? (meant sincerely, not sarcastically, as were the other replies to you.)

  180. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    like cucumber and uncooked tomato, it is not of God.

    Repent before it is too late. Even now you can get right with God and amend your foolish ways.

    The glories of the tomato sandwich must not be dissed or diminished. White bread, mayo and tomatoes which were picked early am and in the refrigerator most of the day. That is the tomato sandwich of my childhood. Just the other day my daughter-in-law and I were saying we will have a tomato sandwich supper as soon as this year’s tomatoes come in. It is kind of a tradition with us. For those who may not know “come in” means grow to maturity and ripen on the vine. But the only good tomatoes left on the planet are heritage tomatoes. These more recent varieties that are mild, almost juiceless and crisp like a apple are an abomination. Fortunately most of the surrounding population are no doubt growing them as we speak. And the large farmer’s market in the next town over is tomato central every year.

    Hint: something local that I never had until a couple years ago. Tomato sandwich consisting of tomato, mayo, and on a home made biscuit. Awesomely good. Homegrown heritage tomato of course. I recommend German Johnson for starters.

  181. @ Nancy: I’ll take the tomato, all by itself, sliced and ready to go!

    However, I take your point, including the part about heritage varieties – ditto for apples.

    Now, I tend to go for some of the smaller varieties of tomatoes that are sold in grocery stores here, since they usually have far more flavor than the bland old things that pass for actual tomatoes these days.

  182. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I personally derive no pleasure from dancing.

    What on earth, man?

    We just got back from the Greek festival, a fund raiser for the Greek Orthodox church which is about two blocks from my house. We have a fairly large Greek population, and this town is riddled with greek owned restaurants. Everything from scary expensive to little place on the corner. Every year they have the festival with greek food and hoards of people come out to eat over there. The food is awesome, but I can’t remember the names of anything. The deserts are stuff like chopped nuts in philo sheets and the whole thing oozing with honey. Anyhow, they are over there drinking beer and dancing (kids performing) while people clap and yell “O Pa” ever few measures. All of which, of course I did. And I bought three raffle tickets for a trip to Athens. The folks who are “agin” most of that have their own problems. But I love the greek festival. BTW, judging from the size of the church and school and rec building and performance auditorium (get the picture) and judging from the cars in the parking lot year round, they know how to make the restaurant business profitable. More power to ’em.

  183. @ numo:
    I said I was being sarcastic which you claim you missed in my initial comment to him, which I take to mean you thought I was being serious.

    What is going on? I don’t know, you tell me. Go back and look at my initial response to HUG. You’ll notice both an “lol” and a ” 😛 ” I don’t know how you interrupt things, but normally those are meant to express you’re not being serious.

    And btw, I’m sure his historical reference to Romania’s dictators were were spot on. I looked it up. I even got on the Internet after dialing up my connection. I read about Elena by use of HTTP.

    Did you know that the soldier who finally tied her hands behind her back (she was belligerent and uncooperative) before she was executed, had smelled something bad when he was near her. Yup, she had shat her pants. Little fun fact there.

  184. In other news, I not only managed to dismantle my lawnmower engine and extract the carburettor today, but also to re-mantle it and actually make it start.

    I can report a partial success. Instead of spluttering for half a minute and then stalling, it now runs normally for half a minute and then stalls.

  185. @ Paula: Paula, I’m at a loss here. I hadn’t read most of this thread, so didn’t see your etc. comments upthread about CLC, etc.

    I responded initially to Rafiki and was more or less reading here and on another blog while apparently having my posts here cross with yours. The whole thing about Romania was based on a mistaken assumption by me. I think sarcasm tends not to play well in text-only communication, usually, so no, I didn’t get the drift of your response to HUG.

    At this point, my hunch is that moving on is a good idea. Apologies for any confusion and/or mistaken assumptions.

  186. @ numo:
    I announced that I was switching to my real name, but I don’t read every comment either. I mentioned that only because you tangled with me as Evie too, if you recall. Maybe it’s a personality thing.

  187. Paula wrote:

    @ numo:
    I announced that I was switching to my real name, but I don’t read every comment either. I mentioned that only because you tangled with me as Evie too, if you recall. Maybe it’s a personality thing.

    Do you also go by Paula with a last name starting with an R on another blog?

    I didn’t know you used to be Evie either. I must have missed that.

  188. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    soggy bread.

    Since you seem like a grown up who can handle the real truth, I am going to tell it to you straight. Tomato sandwiches drip onto the plate, and sometimes onto the hands and occasionally up the arm. it is not considered polite to lick your fingers in this situation, but the thinking hostess will provide a packet of baby wipes at the table for discerning guests.

    If one is to enjoy the allowable and permitted delights of the flesh, in this case food, then one must be willing to actually get the flesh involved as necessary.

  189. Just want to tell everyone how grateful I am that the SGM victims have finally seen justice, with a few more to go soon. Thank God! Thank all those who stood with these people in the face of opposition and at a price. Thank you all for all your continued blogging to see truth prevail and people given a chance to heal.

    Great job, Deebs! and Wartburgers!

  190. @ Paula: we disagreed, but I don’t recall anything like the problems today. If I might… Your comments to me today seem pretty well uncalled-for. I don’t understand the hostility.

  191. @ numo:
    You always start something with me for some reason. I wasn’t even talking to you. As the Brits say, you end up getting right on my tits. But I’m game I’d you want to keep this up. I ended up dropping it with you way before but go on, numo, do your worst.

  192. anon wrote:

    And, of course, TGC’s council is a woman-free zone.

    As you’ve probably guessed, my previous comment about dancing was purely hyperbolic parody. And yeah, women are conspicuously absent from their proceedings. But then again, what woman in her right mind would want to be part of a testosterone fueled schmekel measuring contest which quickly devolves into seeing who can piss the longest stream?

  193. Another SGM Suvivor wrote:

    Deb & Dee – I wanted to publicly thank you both for your hard work and dedication with this site, and for being there and encouraging me through this process. This site has been a blessing to me over the past few years in getting ready for this trial, and it was so hard not to post and speak out so many times, but now that my trial is over, I can speak freely.

    Yes, I am Jeremy Cook, the same “Another SGM Survivor” that posts on SGMSurvivors, and the outspoken victim on the news the past 2 days.

    God bless you, sir. Your courage is an inspiration to all of us. You and yours are in my prayers, and, I feel certain, the prayers of many others who read & post here.

  194. @ Still Soarin’:

    So if Chad is smoking pot at SBTS in Louisville again like he did a CLC school then Daddy can get him off the hook.

    Philippians 4:13 in ESV..”with money all things are possible “

  195. @ Paula:

    the exchanges here make be a little sad. surely there is a better way. if it makes a difference, I wasn’t sure myself the level of sarcasm to serious. I doubt numo’s intent was anything other than trying to be helpful in a matter-of-fact way.

  196. @ elastigirl:
    I’d rather let this rest but I think there may be more to this than meets the eye.

    I’m not sure what you’re sad about exactly. Or why you’re expressing that to me. It gives me the impression you’re wanting me to do something here. Part of the deal is that I don’t know you well enough to know where you’re coming from or what your motivation is. Are you attempting to establish peace? Do you assume the onus is on me somehow? I just don’t know. I mean I’m sorry this has made you sad. Personally, it’s amused me.

    I’m not wishing to complicate this further but I’ve decided not to ignore your comment. And I’ll share an observation. You may have observed this started with a comment I made in response to HUG ‘s comment to me. I don’t regret what I said, I was just being myself. That how I am sometimes. I like to joke around. And I enjoy bantering.

    Thing is, HUG never responded. I can’t be sure he would have and that’s fine. But what what is clear is that shortly after I responded to HUG, numo cut in and personally, I think you should look twice at it. And look twice at what I said. Do you not believe me when I’m saying I was being sarcastic? And is there something more going on that involves HUG that’s not being mentioned?

    I admit I teased him. And I didn’t put much thought into it. Its what I do. But I’m feeling I should have considered the source and put more thought into what I said to him. It feels like numo’s response to me had less to do with me and more to do with HUG, and maybe protecting his feelings. She admitted that she thought I was being serious. So did Bridget, so have you.

    HUG has not responded and may be embarrassed I’m talking about this, but I don’t feel I’ve purposely escalated this. I do think that this is less about me and more about him. I think the message I’m getting is that I should not have teased him. But I’ve interacted with him and I think he would have dealt with it unacrimoniously, unlike what’s occurred after numo added her 2 cents. I could be wrong, but I really don’t think HUG needed her to defend him, assuming as she did (for some odd reason) that I was being unfriendly.

    And that’s all I’m saying about this. Period.

  197. @ Paula:

    I believe you when you say you were being sarcastic, but until you explained that I wasn’t exactly sure. and so I can understand that numo didn’t take that comment as sarcasm. to spell it out, my perception is that there was surprising meanness in your responses to her, out of proportion to her innocuous comment. I felt bad for her. I don’t think HUG factors in to things (beyond initially bringing up elena c.) All just my feelings & perceptions. no need to respond further.

  198. @ brian:
    Dever reveals the secret to how Mahaney bonded with him and the others, through his “generosity”.

    Guess it’d be difficult for these guys to return all the gifts Mahaney gave them. TWW has revealed the generous donation Mahaney made to Al Mohler and the SBTS.

    If anyone needs an explanation as to why these guys haven’t broken ranks with Mahaney it’s because he purchased their affections. T4G acts like they stand with Mahaney on principle. No they don’t, they stand with him because they feel they OWE HIM after everything he gave them.

    Same for Grudem. Same for Piper. They just won’t admit it.

    Come on John Piper. If you’re not a “professional” then why does money factor in so much, assuming you went to Louisville and preached at Mahaney’s church because you felt obligated. You admit Mahaney persuaded you. What was the leverage Dr. Piper, hmm? If you’re not a “professional” then why did you allow Mahaney to buy your allegiance?

    As the corrupt Lady DeWinter said in Dumas’ “The Three Musketeers,” Fear is a better bond than love.

    Mahaney, we know, will use blackmail. Perhaps all these guys supporting him know that if the people of SGM found out how much of their donations went to fattening up these guys, it would ruin their reputations. They’ve been doing no one a favor other than themselves by staying quiet and supporting Mahaney. And why? I say it’s because they all have something to HIDE.

    Mahaney allowed SGM to be a place children could be molested time after time in secret, and behind closed doors. And they did nothing to stop the predators but instead they continued to maintain an environment in which it could occur.

    Perhaps Mahaney groomed Mohler, Dever, Duncan, Piper et al over time with gifts and donations that he gave them in secret, behind closed doors. Perhaps these men liked it and Mahaney’s special attentions made them feel special, important, and they were flattered by his praise. He kept coming around and even spent time with their families and developed with them a sense of trust. “Surely he’s a good guy and would never do the things he’s been accused of.” And Carolyn, as always helped with the ruse.

    The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.

  199. The SBC house organ, Baptist Press, has no, zero, coverage of the Morales trial or the fallout at SGM or TGC.

    There is also zero coverage about the court cases involving Caner, which he lost by summary judgment (meaning no jury could ever agree with his claim!) with language by the federal judges that suggest that Caner had lied.

  200. Paula wrote:

    As the corrupt Lady DeWinter said in Dumas’ “The Three Musketeers,” Fear is a better bond than love.

    “Whereas love can persuade, fear commands. Serve Those Above in Rejoicing, serve Those Below in Terror.”
    — fictional black magick incantation from Manly Wade Wellman’s weird fiction of the Forties and Fifties.

  201. Paula wrote:

    Bridget, so have you.
    HUG has not responded and may be embarrassed I’m talking about this, but I don’t feel I’ve purposely escalated this. I do think that this is less about me and more about him. I think the message I’m getting is that I should not have teased him. But I’ve interacted with him and I think he would have dealt with it unacrimoniously, unlike what’s occurred after numo added her 2 cents. I could be wrong, but I really don’t think HUG needed her to defend him, assuming as she did (for some odd reason) that I was being unfriendly.

    I spend the weekend offline at a big cookout/picnic and I come back to find I’m ground zero of a flamefest?

  202. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I spend the weekend offline at a big cookout/picnic and I come back to find I’m ground zero of a flamefest?

    Not that I care, but the question did cross my mind, “Why didn’t he say anything?” Now comes this?

    Headless Unicorn Guy on Sat May 17, 2014 at 10:21 PM said:

    Headless Unicorn Guy on Sat May 17, 2014 at 10:26 PM said:

    Headless Unicorn Guy on Sat May 17, 2014 at 10:33 PM said:

    Headless Unicorn Guy on Sat May 17, 2014 at 10:37 PM said:

    Headless Unicorn Guy on Sun May 18, 2014 at 12:15 PM said:

    Headless Unicorn Guy on Sun May 18, 2014 at 12:19 PM said:

    Away and “offline”? Why say that.

    “Curiouser and curiouser!” cried Alice.

    And that’s all I’m saying to you about this ridiculous matter. smh

  203. @ Paula:
    It’s difficult to know who’s who after being damaged by bad relationships. I remember how that feels and sometimes I still get confused by it, decades later.

    But I know that neither numo nor HUG try to get things at others’ expense. They are not that type. So this has been a misunderstanding, not a grab&take. I wish you at peace.

  204. @ Paula:

    Keep in mind that people post from different time zones. So unless you know where HUG is, you have no idea when he was posting in terms of his life space.

  205. Not sure why my name keeps coming up in this conversation. I believe the only thing I ever commented on was Paula’s monikers — schrug.

  206. The SBC house organ, Baptist Press, has no, zero, coverage of the Morales trial or the fallout at SGM or TGC.
    There is also zero coverage about the court cases involving Caner, which he lost by summary judgment (meaning no jury could ever agree with his claim!) with language by the federal judges that suggest that Caner had lied.