Nathaniel Morales Found Guilty of All Charges

"Nathaniel "Nate" Morales, a former youth group leader at Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, was convicted Thursday of sexually abusing three young boys between 1983 and 1991."

WLJA ABC 7 (Washington, D.C.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HK_Central_Statue_Square_Legislative_Council_Building_n_Themis_s.jpgStatue of Themis

Earlier this week Nathaniel Morales was on trial for sexually abusing young boys two and three decades ago, and yesterday morning the victims finally received justice.  In a Rockville, Maryland courtroom Morales was found guilty by a 12-member jury on two counts of sexual offense in the second degree and three counts of sexual abuse of a minor.  Here is the report that aired on the local news.

The CBS affiliate in Washington, D.C. (WUSA*9) reported the news as follows:

Nathaniel "Nate" Morales, 56, of Las Vegas, Nev., was found guilty on three counts of sexual abuse of a minor and two more counts of sexual offense in the second degree, officials said. Morales was accused of abusing three boys from 1983-1991, preying on the young members of the Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg at group sleepovers and in their homes.

With regard to Morales' sentencing, the WLJA article that accompanied the clip concluded as follows:

Judge Terrance McGann will sentence Morales on Aug. 14 in Montgomery County Circuit Court. He faces up to 85 years in Maryland state prison. Morales' public defender, Alan Drew tells ABC7, he and his client plan to file an appeal following sentencing.

How 'providential' that the trial coincided with The Gospel Coalition's three-day Council meeting that just wrapped up in Louisville.  Why is this significant?  Because the lead pastor of Covenant Life Church (CLC) during the time these crimes took place is listed as a Council Member

Yes, C.J. Mahaney 'served' CLC for 27 years until he passed the baton to Joshua Harris in 2004.  Harris, who continues to serve as CLC's Senior Pastor, is also a TGC Council Member.  It is certainly worth noting that the men who along with Mahaney founded Together for the Gospel – Mark Dever, Al Mohler, and Ligon Duncan – are also listed as Council Members on The Gospel Coalition website.  Perhaps they were 'together for the gospel' when the verdict was announced.

A commenter named Sensible just alerted us that (s)he left a comment under the TGC Council Meeting: Day 2 post that has yet to be been approved.  In fact, no comments have been approved under the post.  All Sensible's comment contained was a Bible passage, specifically Matthew 18:1-6.  We will continue to monitor whether the comment gets approved and will update you here should it occur.

Bob Allen of the Associated Baptist Press has been covering this story and featured an article entitled Trial shines light on alleged abuse cover-up.  The article includes information that an SGM whistleblower (Brent Detwiler) recently published on his website.  The ABP article states:

A longtime pastor at a D.C.-area evangelical church testified in court May 13 that he did not report crimes alleged in 1992 against a man standing trial this week on charges of sexual abuse, according to a one-time ministerial colleague turned whistleblower attending the weeklong trial in Montgomery County, Md.

Brent Detwiler, who writes a blog devoted to alleged cover-up of child sexual abuse in churches affiliated with Sovereign Grace Ministries, said Tuesday’s testimony by Grant Layman, who stepped down recently after 31 years as a pastor at Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, Md., removes any doubt that church leaders conspired to cover up crimes while treating abuse allegations as a matter for private church discipline.

After the verdict was rendered, Janet Mefferd interviewed Brent Detwiler on her radio program (which I listened to live).  Here are the highlights.  Nathaniel Morales was involved at Covenant Life Church from almost the beginning.  He was an unofficial youth leader and occasional soloist who groomed his victims.

Morales was facing eight counts.  Three of them were dropped because one of the victims recently underwent a medical procedure and was unable to testify.  Five counts went forward, with Morales being found guilty on all counts that pertained to three men.  Janet asked Brent why it took so long to bring charges against Morales.  Brent explained that the men were ashamed and embarrassed.  Finally, in 2009 Samuel Bates could no longer maintain his silence and came forward.  Detective Sally McGee began an investigation, and it took several years to bring charges against Nate Morales.

Janet and Brent then discussed Grant Layman's testimony under oath (which Brent covers in his post).  Brent was present at the trial, and he recounted how Grant was asked the following questions by Defense Attorney Drew (not to be confused with the prosecuting attorney).

Under cross-examination Attorney Drew asked: "Did you have a responsibility to report the crimes to police in 1992?" to which Grant responded:  "I believe so."  Then Defense Attorney Drew  asked: "Did you report it to police?"  Grant responded:  "I didn't do it."

BOOM!

Brent then stated that Grant Layman (C.J. Mahaney's brother-in-law) knew about the molestations in 1992 and he knew about the abuse of Jeremy Cook by Nate Morales in 1993 because one of the Bates boys told him about it.  Grant assured him that the pastors would take care of it, and according to Brent no one has ever followed up with Jeremy Cook.

Janet then asked why no one went to the police.  Brent told Janet that the prosecution did not explore motive during the trial – they were only interested in the facts/evidence.  Then Brent explained that he had talked with Nate Morales' ex-wife, and she told him that she didn't know anything about the molestations until 2012 when Morales was arrested.  She discovered that he had abused her sons and filed for divorce which became finalized the following year.  She was supposed to testify at the trial, but the evidence was so strong that her testimony was not necessary. 

Brent explained that two more trials against Morales will be taking place soon – one on Monday.   The interview concluded with Brent sharing a comment made by the mother of one of the victims.  She said: 

"I've been waiting twenty years for this day.  Now they can finally get on with their lives."

In the meantime, it appears that the pastors of Covenant Life Church have some splainin' to do…  Let's take a look at CLC's response to the news that Nate Morales had been arrested (see screenshot below).

http://www.covlife.org/blog/response_to_news_reportsWHAT???  That bears repeating…

Covenant Life Church had no knowledge of such abuse until many years after the abuse when an adult who had been victimized as a child came forward?

That is in direct contradiction to Grant Layman's testimony UNDER OATH.  This appears to be the bombshell of the Morales case.

Our friend Todd Wilhelm has published his report on the outcome of the trial, which we highly recommend.  We believe this is just the tip of the iceberg, and we expect there will be more revelations to come.  We promise to follow this story and bring you any updates. 

In our upcoming post, Dee will be sharing some analysis of the trial, so stay tuned…

Lydia's Corner:   Ezekiel 33:1-34:31   Hebrews 13:1-25   Psalm 115:1-18   Proverbs 27:21-22

Comments

Nathaniel Morales Found Guilty of All Charges — 313 Comments

  1. I guess when you’ve had a habit of denying sexual abuse for 20 odd years, it is hard to realize how stupid you sound trying to deny it when you testified otherwise in court.

  2. Covenant Life Church had no knowledge of such abuse until many years after the abuse when an adult who had been victimized as a child came forward?

    That is in direct contradiction to Grant Layman’s testimony UNDER OATH.

    But ees Party Line.
    Two Plus Two Equals Five.

  3. Over the past 35+ years in working with survivors in recovery, I’ve become acquainted with numerous women and men dealing with the long-term effects of wounds inflicted by childhood sexual abuse. So, though this is not my personal story, I have come to have a greater understanding of courage, tenacity, and hope through those who have experienced this evil disruption in their development. I wish the survivors in this situation from CLC all the best and pray that being able finally to share their stories and the rendering of justice will bring some relief.

    And terrible as this personal cost was to these young men, it now puts on the legal record facts and admissions given under oath about those in the exact position of authority who allegedly knew/suspected sexual abuse and yet chose to do nothing substantial about either reporting the perpetrator to legal authorities, or to protect other children at risk of violation by removing him from access to them.

    Hopefully these people in authority will likewise be fully exposed for their legal, moral, and ethical failures which apparently resulted in more damage to more minors. There is no way to excuse away their responsibility for sins of omission under some “biblical” guise of “taking care of church problems in-house.” First facts have been confirmed: pastoral authority at CLC failed.

    And there also seems no legitimate way for those insiders and outsiders who have sought to silence critiques of CLC and SGM and particular authority figures within it to continue that tactic. Haven’t these leaders all enabled extensive damage to seep into the Church through their endorsements of celebrities and rebuttals of detractors? What responsibilities do they now have, given what has happened in the Morales case and what was revealed under oath about potential culpability of their friends/allies? Their own apparent abuses of authority and influence over the past many months since SGM issues started coming to a head seem to have more to do with relational loyalty than with any careful investigation into facts behind the issues. What will they do now if they wish to restore their own reputations?

    The Church is watching … and should give even more public push-back if the lack of transparency and accountability continues. There are those of us who do not want the world to think these kinds of leaders represent mature Christlikeness or the Church.

  4. @ brad/futuristguy:

    Well said!

    Dee and I began investigating SGM/CLC close to six years ago, and we knew something was seriously wrong right from the start.

    Both of us want the victims to know that our hearts break for them and that we are keeping them in our prayers. May God heal their hurts.

  5. The SGM and TGC people are the biggest bunch of cowards. I am indignant over this whole thing. There is NO love for the victims, no concern for anyone or anything but their own A##E$ (ed.) Absolutely shameful!!!

  6. Wow, that pathetic legalese statement from CLC just says it all, doesn’t it?

    “These aren’t the ‘droids you’re looking for. Move along.”

    The doors can’t be locked on CLC soon enough. Shut the place down, raze the building, and make sure the entire “leadership” is never ever allowed to be in a position of “pastoral authority” or “pastoral anything” anywhere. Ever.

    The quote from the mom of one of the victims about justice being served after 20 years brings a heavy grief for what her family has been through combined with gratitude for this bit of justice in the here and now. May this bring these families tremendous comfort.

    The deafening silence of the T4G oligarchs in Louisville is ringing in my ears.

  7. Either way, this breaks down CJ’s leadership skills:

    A. He didn’t know this was happening but continued to pull in a hefty Prez salary. Not good.

    B. He knew this was happening and he did nothing, while still earning his hefty salary. Really not good.

    Hope the other pastors get a chance to tell a jury how they didn’t report because they had the clergy law to hide behind. Like to see how that works out for them.

  8. From the ABP article:

    “Detwiler said none of the Covenant Life Church pastors or any leaders from Sovereign Grace Ministries have attended Morales’ trial so far.”

    I also loved the quote from Amy Smith of SNAP:

    “Amy Smith, Houston representative for the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests, said when allegations of abuse arise, the first and foremost concern should be for the victims.

    “There should not be any distinction of the ‘civil level’ and ‘ecclesial level’ when it comes to reporting alleged crimes,” she said. “The church is not above or outside of the law.”

    This is an excellent response to Russell Moore’s lame prognostications on the role of the “civil authorities” and “ecclesiastical authorities.”

    Moore’s Christianese double-speak, even while endorsing church leaders to report suspected abuse immediately to the authorities, clouds what should be his only point: the responsibility to report, period.

  9. Rafiki wrote:

    The deafening silence of the T4G oligarchs in Louisville is ringing in my ears.

    Er, make that “The Gospel Coalition” I suppose. I can’t tell the difference between them anyway.

  10. I can’t imagine how heartbroken and devastated Morales’ ex-wife must be. Had any of the CLC pastors gone to the authorities, her sons would have been spared the abuse. The whole cover-up is just unbelievable! My heart goes out to all of the victims.

  11. Not to reduce the impact of this trial and result or the issue in general in churches but it seems that mankind has an issue with dealing with sexual abuse when the reputation of an institution is involved.

    Check out this NPR news story about sexual assault handling at colleges and universities.

    http://www.npr.org/2014/05/01/308607420/when-college-sexual-assault-panels-fall-short-and-when-they-help?sc=17&f=1001&utm_source=iosnewsapp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=app

    Seems they have all the same issues as churches. Just different titles on the people involved.

  12. Rafiki wrote:

    Moore’s Christianese double-speak, even while endorsing church leaders to report suspected abuse immediately to the authorities, clouds what should be his only point: the responsibility to report, period.

    It’s more political than that. Moore has to publicly endorse reporting (which is mandatory in every state I’ve lived in), but doesn’t want to alienate the base (which pays him). Not that I have anything against what he said, but I think a more appropriate response would be, “If someone molests a kid – REPORT IT, DUMB@$$”

  13. It is the appalling silence like this by so many so-called ‘Godly’ men that makes their sanctimonious claim to a ‘high view’ of Scripture to be nothing more than a bald-faced lie. It is why I consider most Bible-thumping evangelicals to be a brood of vipers like the Pharisees described in the Gospels.

    Who in God’s name can claim to have a ‘high view’ of the Bible while committing such an epic fail to follow all of the Bible’s commands like this one:

    “learn to do good;
    seek justice,
    rescue the oppressed,
    defend the orphan,
    plead for the widow.”

    Hypocrisy has infected evangelicalism like the Plague.

  14. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    There are those of us who do not want the world to think these kinds of leaders represent mature Christlikeness or the Church

    Amen, brad, amen! Wonderful comment!

  15. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Not that I have anything against what he said, but I think a more appropriate response would be, “If someone molests a kid – REPORT IT, DUMB@$$”

    Spot on Doc. His statement was mealy-mouthed “pandering to the base.” Just like any politician.

    Let your yes be a yes and your no be a no. Use of the emphatic term “dumb-@$$” is appreciated by me for sure. 🙂 Speak plainly.

  16. @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

    Doc, my first response to you is in moderation, but no worries. 🙂

    It can’t be emphasized enough how the use of Christianese insider language turns off the outside, non-evangelical world.

    Moore’s use of insider lingo in his public statements like “ecclesiastical authorities,” calling law enforcement authorities “Ceasar,” and emphasizing “church discipline” just alienates the average person, making them scratch their head and say “whaaaat?!”

    Again as you said, here’s some simple English: REPORT IT!

  17. @ Rafiki: I have DC-area friends who are longtime members of the mother ship as well as of the VA satellite. I hope to God they’ve left, or are in the process of leaving, but I’m afraid of hitting nerves if I call and adsk, you know?

  18. Reading the #IStandWithSGMVictims feed…simply amazing! I had not thought much of twitter before, but after today, I might have to break custom and set up an account just to get blocked by TGC 😀

  19. Sensible wrote:

    Reading the #IStandWithSGMVictims feed…simply amazing! I had not thought much of twitter before, but after today, I might have to break custom and set up an account just to get blocked by TGC

    Me too! Love your comment!

  20. Rafiki wrote:

    This is an excellent response to Russell Moore’s lame prognostications on the role of the “civil authorities” and “ecclesiastical authorities.”

    While my frustration with Moore, etc al.’s circumlocutions knows no bounds, I actually disagree regarding not having a distinction. The civil authorities take time to act. Sometimes (often) there is not enough evidence to proceed with a criminal case. But just because the evidence doesn’t meet the relatively high bar of securing an indictment or the even higher bar of securing a conviction doesn’t mean abuse didn’t happen. Any private agency needs to not only report the incident to the civil authorities, but make it’s own determination as to how best to keep the people it works with safe. At a minimun, this means taking protective steps (suspending the accused from his/her current position pending the outcome of the investigation), but it can also mean making a determination that the abuse occurred EVEN IF the criminal case comes to naught.

  21. A recent report about sex abuse in the RCC based on a Vatican document might help put the Morales trial into some perspective: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/vatican-defrocks-848-priests-10-years-abuse-23605974?singlePage=true

    A very brief summary: 410,000 priests, 848 defrocked in 10 years. This amounts to about 1 in 500. Starting some what later 1 in 160 have subjected to lesser penalties and removed from any contact with children.

    My sympathies go with the abused. Jesus’s words recounted in the Matthew 18 “millstone” passage is all the scripture need for such abuse activities.

  22. burnrnorton wrote:

    but it can also mean making a determination that the abuse occurred EVEN IF the criminal case comes to naught.

    This is an area that needs to be plainly covered in a church’s SOPs. For a church to treat a perp as a child molester without prosecution opens the church up to significant risk. The kids always come first, but some wise policies and procedures can mitigate the risk.

  23. I wonder how these men would respond if their own sons/daughters were anally raped and had hands put in their vaginas. Because it is THOSE experiences these leaders are ignoring *in children who are not their own* for the sake of their own public images. By doing so, they have ruined their reputations altogether.

    They have now lost the right to common courtesy when they speak about God.

    Bah.

  24. @ Deb:

    Yippee!!! Just discovered I’ve been banned from–not one–but all of TGC’s blogs!!! They really don’t like any mentions of Matthew 18:1-6 (or certain hashtags)…maybe they do not recognize that gospel as canon…? 😉

  25. @ Patrice:
    Yes. This.

    I am very glad, for the sake of the men who suffered first at the hands of Mr. Morales, then at the hands of the church leaders who should, above all people, have protected and defended them…I am glad for this outcome. I might even be cheering. Because I know how difficult it is to speak the things that were done – speak them in the full light of day. It is difficult enough to speak of it in a dark corner where there are no watchers….listeners….critics. I applaud these young men for their courage and I rejoice in the carriage of justice rolling forward.

    Those who were made aware of what Mr. Morales was up to and failed to put a stop to him by whatever means necessary are as culpable as he is for every single person he went on to abuse. They are truly a brood of vipers – snakes lurking in the shade, presenting themselves as useful, helpful….and biting the minute they are touched, injecting their poison….and anyone who chooses to side with a viper is either a fool or a viper.

    And this victory is a victory for all who have been victimized by someone in the church and re-victimized by the church. This whole thing stirs up lingering pain, but it is, as a friend calls it, clean pain…the kind that is followed by healing (like lancing a wound).

  26. God is in complete control, and all of this is playing out in front of a watching world thanks to the internet, Facebook, and Twitter. There’s no where left to hide! 😉

  27. Sensible wrote:

    @ Deb:

    Yippee!!! Just discovered I’ve been banned from–not one–but all of TGC’s blogs!!! They really don’t like any mentions of Matthew 18:1-6 (or certain hashtags)…maybe they do not recognize that gospel as canon…?

    Keep pushing them. Force a response. I’m a liberal Episcopal, so they don’t care about me or mine, but push from within the camp should help.

  28. @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
    Yep. In Maryland, the folks charged with investigating child abuse have three categories for just this reason. Substaniated, unsubstantiated, and unfounded (IRC), in that order. The first means they found sufficient evidence that the investigator determined that more likely than not abuse happened, the second that they found some evidence of abuse but not enough to determine that it was more likely than not, and the third that they found no evidence at all of abuse. Private organizations need to determine whether to draw the line at category one or two.

  29. @ burnrnorton:
    I should add that the retention time for each type of allegation varies accordingly. They delete the last from their records after 3 to 5 years (I don’t remember the figure), but the others are retained much longer.

  30. @ dee:

    It’s a great club to be a part of 🙂

    Interesting…check out TGC’s article feed now…something’s getting through…time for Damage Control: Part I…

  31. Joe carter’s appalling lack of logic is laid to bare on a trainwreck of a twitter exchange. He’s managed to get into it with someone about how paterno should have called the police, all in an exchange that was started with the intent on his part to absolve his boy cj. His irony meter must be completely shut off…..It’s frightening on so many levels…frightening that he is a college professor, frightening that he calls people out for not being intellectual, frightening that he’s a blogger with a big evangelical following…..

  32. Sensible wrote:

    Interesting…check out TGC’s article feed now…

    While I’m glad TGC re-posted an article on the Morales trial, I wonder how long it will take for the organization itself to own-up/apologize/make a statement about recent events…they “farewelled” a lot of people today.

  33. So thankful for our legal system and the fact that Morales will not be able to hurt anyone else. My heart goes out to the men whose lives have been forever impacted by the failures of SGM leadership.

    On a related note, someone help me parse what this means, if at all, for Mahaney. Is this an instance of well-crafted “plausible deniability?”

  34. Sensible wrote:

    While I’m glad TGC re-posted an article on the Morales trial, I wonder how long it will take for the organization itself to own-up/apologize/make a statement about recent events…they “farewelled” a lot of people today.

    I’m not sure how they’re going to try to spin this. No easy way out, as far as I see it.

  35. @ andrew:

    IMO, Joe Carter is not teachable or open when confronted, however respectfully or reasonably. I’ve never once seen him back down or concede an opponent’s point in a way that acknowledges the rightness of the other and the wrongness of his own ideas. Maybe he has and I’ve just missed it. I haven’t read every single thing he’s every written but I’ve read a lot. And I’ve read a lot over at TGC. By and large, humility is lacking in this camp. And in this they are wholly unlike the One they claim to worship. And this does a terrible disservice to those who’ve been abused.

  36. My heart breaks. It breaks for those who’ve been wounded. I am grateful for this justice. I only wish it was never necessary in the first place. And if pastors had done their “God given” duty to report in the first place, many lives would have been spared this abuse. I feel so much anger toward Morales and so much anger toward those who knew about his crimes and chose to be silent.

  37. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    anyone who chooses to side with a viper is either a fool or a viper.

    I will certainly find a way to use this phrase. It exactly captures the thought.

  38. So when will a respected pastor or Christian leader publicly call on C.J. Mahaney and Joshua Harris to resign their respective pastorates? As if there weren’t enough other problems with these men and the legalism they preach, their failure to report the allegations regarding Nate Morales is reprehensible.

  39. Mr.H wrote:

    So thankful for our legal system and the fact that Morales will not be able to hurt anyone else. My heart goes out to the men whose lives have been forever impacted by the failures of SGM leadership.

    On a related note, someone help me parse what this means, if at all, for Mahaney. Is this an instance of well-crafted “plausible deniability?”

    There’s no chance this could be passed off as an instance of plausible deniability. Information was the biggest commodity with CLC, and the Pastoral Team made it their full-time jobs to be in-the-know. If it was sinful for members to not share important information with the Pastors, it would have been cause for degifting if CJ were left out of any loop. He knew. In fact, at least two separate reports have surfaced that back in the early 90’s when the reports about Morales’ behavior and the abuses that had occurred, Mahaney took to his pulpit and make statements insinuating the victims themselves were culpable.

    Let’s recall that Mahaney did the same thing to Tomczak and from the pulpit told everyone Larry’s leaving was so heinous in nature that if it were CJ “he would rather die.”

    What CJ didn’t share was that there had been issues with Tomczak’s son and Mahaney capitalized on this. He mishandled Larry’s son’s confession of sexual misconduct and did nothing to report the matter to police or to the church, but instead used that information to BLACKMAIL Larry Tomczak for this one reason: He didn’t want Larry leaking out the doctrinal shift that CJ had in the pipeline. That was his concern: his own agenda. He wasn’t concerned for the families or the victims of Tomczak’s son, nor for the perpetrator so he’d receive correction & appropriate attention. Those were the last things on his mind. And when Larry departed, CJ completely exoriated to the point of assigning to him the wages of death.

    There are many people who can attest to the fact Mahaney, in reality, was a brutally aggressive man. And emotionally manipulative. He interspersed his acts of deception and abuse with gestures of benevolence and generosity. But when he’s with leaders he’s currying favor with, he’s Mr. Humble Jokey-Jokster, full of encouragement for all his “friends”, the man with the biggest grin.

    What Mahaney said, however, from the pulpit that day decades ago, proves he knew. And not only knew, but is the type of person who assigns sin to others to cover and hide his own. And he did this to God’s people, and continues to do so.

  40. Paula wrote:

    @ singleman:
    Yes, and when will their followers stop drinking the kool-aid?

    They’ll stop when his enablers stop propping him up. Interestingly enough, if you ever see him on twitter, the only thing he does is retweet his gospel boys. No original thoughts…I guess it’s partly his way of staying in their good graces and maintaining theological purity.

  41. Samuel, Jeremy, and Brian ~

    I rejoice with you and your families and loved ones. Thank You, Lord!!!

    You are heroic in the deepest sense of the word.

    > > choking up here < < for real

    You faced down your own shame, suffering, and fear to put your lives and personal welfare on the line between 'the monster in the darkness' and his future prey.

    You won for those children the carefree innocence that your abuser stole from you.
    You paid the cost that saves their lives from the predator's evil snare. You three are their truest of friends.

    The multiplied blessings from your "living sacrifice" will touch more lives than can be counted.

    I am deeply touched by your example. Thank you. Standing ovation from the heart.

    "Greater love has no one than this, that one lays down one's life for one's friends."

  42.   __

    “The ‘Big SGM Squeeze, Perhaps?”

    hmmm…

    Q. Will the convicted criminal ‘turn state’s evidence’, and testify as a witness for the state possibly against his proverbial SGM associates and/or accomplices? [1]

    ___
    Notes: 
    [1] “Turning state’s evidence is occasionally a result of a…generous offer from the prosecution, such as a reduced sentence…”  – WikiP

  43. burnrnorton wrote:

    While my frustration with Moore, etc al.’s circumlocutions knows no bounds, I actually disagree regarding not having a distinction.

    Burn, you are most level-headed and correct in your post. I admit I was on a bit of a tear last night! 🙂

    My ire was pointed at Mr. Moore’s inside-baseball language, which clouded the essential point (as clarified by Doc Fundy): private institutions need to have comprehensive Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) in place for handling cases of suspected abuse and clear communication protocols for reporting ASAP to the appropriate local law enforcement authorities, as the law dictates in their state.

  44. Paula wrote:

    He didn’t want Larry leaking out the doctrinal shift that CJ had in the pipeline.

    What doctrinal shift? Can you give me the short version of that? I have no background with these people and am clueless at this point. Sounds like you are on to something, though.

  45. Nancy wrote:

    Paula wrote:
    He didn’t want Larry leaking out the doctrinal shift that CJ had in the pipeline.
    What doctrinal shift? Can you give me the short version of that?

    I am curious too.

  46. Re: doctrinal shift. I think people are referring to the shift from charismatic more positive-thinking church (sorry, don’t know the theological terms!) to severe and bleak Calvinism with an emphasis on sin and worm theology.

  47. @ Ardiak:
    Thank you for this touching comment. I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments toward the victims. They are heroes in my eyes, too.

  48. @ Nancy:

    I don't think you were reading here when this was being discussed years ago. Sovereign Grace Ministries is a 'family of churches' that used to be called People of Destiny.  The name was shortened to PDI International before finally being changed to what it is now – SGM.

    These church plants grew out of the mothership Covenant Life Church, which also used to go by a different name – Gathering of Believers. This church movement was most definitely Charismatic, and beginning in the latter part of the 1990s (I think), C.J. Mahaney began a doctrinal shift toward Reformed Theology. It was so gradual that some at CLC didn't realize it was happening.

    Larry Tomczak, co-founder of the movement, appears to have objected – he is still Charismatic. There were some 'issues' with Larry T's teenage son, and Mahaney forced Larry out through what appears to be blackmail.

    In 2002 PDI Intl became SGM, and the rest is history. Mahaney and Mark Dever began their friendship around the time that the theological shift began (I suspect Dever played a part in that), and it was Dever who introduced Mahaney to Al Mohler and Ligon Duncan.

    Those three – Dever, Mohler, and Duncan – have had a LONG friendship going back perhaps 30 years. I believe they met at an Intervarsity Missions conference when they were in college (still looking for proof).

    I suspect that Mahaney came up with the conference idea (T4G) since he had so much experience with them. Around the time he became a Christian, he helped Larry T with an outreach in Washington, D.C. called 'Take and Give' which was given the acronym TAG.

    It's my contention that either Mahaney or Dever (or both) came up with T4G (inspired by TAG) since they appear similar at a quick glance. Just my weird theory…

    Not only that, in 2005 Mahaney was invited to speak at a large conference in Great Britain called 'Together on a Mission'. It doesn't take too much imagination to see how if you put TAG together with the concept of Together on a Mission, you can easily come up with 'Together for the Gospel' which has been shortened to T4G. The number 4 was originally intended to represent the FOUR founders – Dever, Duncan, Mohler, and Mahaney.

    Again, this is purely speculation on my part. 🙂

  49. F@ Deb:

    Let me add to this that though TAG/PDI/SGM was Charismatic they were also very heavily influenced by the Shepherding Movement and the Ft. Lauderdale Five.

  50. @ Deb:

    Thank you so much. That took a lot of time to write all that, but IMO I am probably not the only one who did not know all this. It makes sense in all kinds of ways, now.

    There do seem to be certain lines in the sand for the calvinistas (probably more than I have figured out, simply coming from a baptist background). One of these is definitely cessation of the spiritual gifts, and for some it seems to mean almost total absence of the Spirit. For another thing they define the doctrine of sola scriptura as somewhat different from the way some other groups define it, and the trend toward that seems to be accelerating. And, of course, the idea of having as many hierarchies as possible in as many areas of life as possible. And the abhorance of anything that might be tradition, seemingly even if the tradition would reinforce their position on something, probably because they cannot control it. And anti-intellectualism of course.

    This all could come under the larger heading of anti-freedom under the pretense and guise of avoiding excesses of ideas or behaviors, which of course do happen and must be dealt with.

    And now, they can’t control the internet!!! I love it! I love it! I love it! You people are doing a great thing here.

  51. Bridget wrote:

    F@ Deb:
    Let me add to this that though TAG/PDI/SGM was Charismatic they were also very heavily influenced by the Shepherding Movement and the Ft. Lauderdale Five.

    Absolutely!

  52. JeffT wrote:

    It is the appalling silence like this by so many so-called ‘Godly’ men that makes their sanctimonious claim to a ‘high view’ of Scripture to be nothing more than a bald-faced lie. It is why I consider most Bible-thumping evangelicals to be a brood of vipers like the Pharisees described in the Gospels.

    I think our recent discussions on fundamentalism, what it means now, and what it originally meant, are highly pertinent here.

    Perhaps all of us who consider ourselves followers of Jesus, and members of the Church worldwide, need to take a long and hard look at what we have been valuing over the past two or three generations. We’ve fallen so much in love with the pulpit, and with our statements of doctrinal orthodoxy, that we have all but abandoned Jesus’ instructions to examine people by their fruit and to discern justly, not superficially. We are so complacent about our “fundamental truths” that we give a free pass to any wolf who walks up to us just as long as he ticks the list. Not only that, we will fight on the wolf’s behalf and even kill and butcher his prey for him. We do this because we think we are protecting “the gospel” from the spreading toxins of “liberalism”.

    Inevitably, then, we have allowed these wolves to take Jesus’ place of honour in the “church” and in our own lives. We’ve defended their brands in the lazy belief that what’s good for our idol is good for Jesus – hence the fact that children are (emotionally and sexually) devoured from among church congregations, the sin is hidden in darkness in Jesus’ name (on the grounds that uncovering it would “harm the name of Jesus”) and whole christian movements look on and say nothing.

    Today, in 2014, I am a “none”. But I’m not better than anyone else because of that. I used to be in “a church”, and I bought into the “local church” deception the same as anybody else. I was even part of an abusive “church” and was deceived in the same way that many others have been, so that I spoke ill of and avoided people who could have shown me the truth because I honestly believed I should avoid them. And that doesn’t make it better, btw – well, it’s OK because at least I acted in good faith. Bu11sh1t. I acted in culpably stupid “faith”. Nobody forced me to be deceived.

    This is not much; but the Church now needs to take responsibility, and I am part of the Church.

  53. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    That is some powerful talking there, Nick. I have now read it several times. It is really hard to deal with deception. Methinks we all have a lot more to realize about this current mess, and about ourselves.

  54. @ Bridget:
    Yes, though most charismatic groups were affected by this – at least, it seemed very widespread to me, and the whole shepherding thing was part of developments from within charismatic ranks.

  55. Perhaps CJ and his pals can “launch” a new ministry:

    T O S S

    Together On (a) Sinking Ship.

    They dangnabbitted the torpedoes,
    Former SG Pastor

  56. FSGP wrote:

    Perhaps CJ and his pals can “launch” a new ministry:
    T O S S
    Together On (a) Sinking Ship.
    They dangnabbitted the torpedoes,
    Former SG Pastor

    ROTFL – LOVE THIS!!

  57. @ oldJohnJ:

    A brief note about the RCC. What transpired in the Catholic Church with priests molesting children and simply being moved around instead of defrocked immediately was wrong, wrong, wrong. However, the RCC is now taking steps to avoid that in the future. Even a coach for a middle school basketball team at a diocesan school must take their Virtus training. Organists take the Virtus. They are taking steps.

  58. FSGP wrote:

    Perhaps CJ and his pals can “launch” a new ministry:

    T O S S

    Together On (a) Sinking Ship.

    They dangnabbitted the torpedoes,
    Former SG Pastor

    TO$$

  59. @ numo:

    Yes. Agree. Especially in light of Calvary Chapel and Vineyard which started around the same time. All of them were shepherding heavy. I also believe the shepherding heavy concept is still alive — just rebranded into various veins of leading such as Prophet/Priest/King, Vision Casting, Church Discipline, Membership Contracts, Covenantal, etc.

    “Authority Driven” Christianity seems to be in almost every vein of Protestantism. I’m not sure what happened to the Love commands.

    I find it interesting that the leadership style we see most today is the one that Jesus spoke against to his disciples, yet we have seen it creep into the Church since about the second century.

  60. @ singleman:

    Singleman: Joshua Harris is up to his eyeballs in all of this.

    How’s that “I Kissed Grant Layman Goodbye With a Big Happy Send Off From the CLC Pulpit” looking now, Mr. Harris?

  61. @ Deb:
    Good rundown and yes, CJ surreptitiously brought in the doctrinal shift in order to line up the message with marketplace he was introduced to through Dever, and worked hard to fill it with the brand he set out to create for that purpose, and would not tolerate any opposition in the process. The best way to do that was to keep the plan from becoming known by the congregation. In all depended upon his skills as a manipulator. It had nothing to do with the “Spirit.” More accurately CLC became “Conformed & Hypnotic.”

    I wasn’t part of TAG but my understanding is it began in the home of Lydia Little and Larry Tomczak joined. Mahaney began attending after seeing an Ad in the newspaper. Lydia asked Larry to take CJ under his wing, which he did. Mahaney quickly grew and shares he supplanted Lydia Little because “she was a woman.” Tomczak & Mahaney teamed up, but there was always tension and competition between the two which eventually led to CJ & Carolyn taking over. (I’d bet CJ’s hair loss and thinness were factors. He envied Larry and competed in an effort to become the “bigger man”. Makes sense considering how hung up he is on his masculinity.)

    Speaking of Larry & TAG Deb, Larry Tomczak is now the executive director of The Awareness Group (T.A.G.)!

  62. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    … I used to be in “a church”, and I bought into the “local church” deception the same as anybody else. I was even part of an abusive “church” and was deceived in the same way that many others have been, so that I spoke ill of and avoided people who could have shown me the truth because I honestly believed I should avoid them. And that doesn’t make it better, btw – well, it’s OK because at least I acted in good faith. Bu11sh1t. I acted in culpably stupid “faith”. Nobody forced me to be deceived.

    This is not much; but the Church now needs to take responsibility, and I am part of the Church.

    Actually, Nick, what you’ve said is A LOT. I agree with Deb. Please write a guest post for TWW on this. I believe you have a great deal of wisdom to offer.

  63. It’s wonderful that they’re finally putting that monster behind bars. What’s going to happen to the pastors who allowed him to abuse children? Will there be separate charges for them? If so, what would they be? It would be wonderful if everyone involved got charged appropriately, so that even their head-in-the-sand followers could see how they all rubbed each others’ backs.

  64. elizabeth seton wrote:

    What transpired in the Catholic Church with priests molesting children and simply being moved around instead of defrocked immediately was wrong, wrong, wrong

    With all due respect, Elizabeth… the word “wrong” doesn’t quite describe the seriousness of the activities. It’s like I hear some people admitting they made a “mistake” rather than calling it sin. No, what the Catholic church should be described as heinous, atrocious, vicious, and above all deceptive and grievously sinful.

    That’s my opinion….

  65. Paula wrote:

    What Mahaney said, however, from the pulpit that day decades ago, proves he knew. And not only knew, but is the type of person who assigns sin to others to cover and hide his own. And he did this to God’s people, and continues to do so.

    I’m glad to see the wheel of karma turning and quite possibly not in Cee Jay’s favor. In the aftermath of the Nuremberg trials there was a de-Nazification program by which former Wehrmacht officers who were previously able to blame everything on the SS and avoid complicity charges, were finally brought to justice. Godspeed to investigators and may their digging uncover enough evidence to make an example of these vipers*.

    *A title coined by Jeannette and so richly deserved by these men.

  66. @ elizabeth seton:
    Thanks for the comment. I think my comment was excessively brief. I was pointing out that a very hierarchical organization can institute change once the CEO decides there is a problem. Of course, as the RCC has shown, it is very difficult to get the message to the top.
    Our celebrity revering, marketing driven and very chaotic evangelical culture has no single point of administration. However the larger denominations in this group could do a lot to help. Rather than passing pious resolutions, the SBC should institute the oft mentioned sexual offenders data base. If they can run a local church out of their denomination for hiring a female lead pastor I’m sure if they wanted to they could put some teeth into the implementation and use of a sexual predators data base.
    Another hope is for some solid statistics on sexual abuse within all churches. The numbers quoted in the article I referenced don’t give even a hint of the actual fraction of the total number of abuse cases are represented by the stated number of disciplinary actions.
    The RCC was made to deal with sexual abuse by the rapidly increasing costs of settlements arising from court actions instituted by individual or small groups of abused individuals. Perhaps we have finally started down a similar path in our corner of Christianity.

  67. Paula wrote:

    Mr.H wrote:

    What CJ didn’t share was that there had been issues with Tomczak’s son and Mahaney capitalized on this. He mishandled Larry’s son’s confession of sexual misconduct and did nothing to report the matter to police or to the church, but instead used that information to BLACKMAIL Larry Tomczak for this one reason: He didn’t want Larry leaking out the doctrinal shift that CJ had in the pipeline. That was his concern: his own agenda. He wasn’t concerned for the families or the victims of Tomczak’s son, nor for the perpetrator so he’d receive correction & appropriate attention. Those were the last things on his mind. And when Larry departed, CJ completely exoriated to the point of assigning to him the wages of death.

    This right here captures the biggest problem I have with the entire SGM/former SGM church network. The entire denomination changed its theology and its reformed theology is founded upon criminal activity. Mahaney’s blackmail of Tamczak is what he used to drive Tomczka from PDI so he could change the theology. What does scripture say about building a house on the sand? Or profiting from sin?

    This is why Sovereign Grace is illegitimate it’s roots are in a crime and every person who attends a SGM/former SGM church enables that.

  68. I ad so happy when the Nate Morales verdict was announced. I read it on Survivors while I was at work. Got up form my desk, did a little dance in my cube. And went downstairs had lunch and a softdrink to celebrate. (I was at work and no they did not have beer in the cafeteria!)

    During my lunch hour I prayed that CLC and SGM will face a criminal investigation and that the entire Sovereign Grace collapses like a house of cards.

    For me happiness would be going through a drive through at McDonalds and seeing CJ pop his head out of the drive through and ask, “Do you want fries with that?” Then maybe Mark Dever, John Piper, Bruce Warn, Wayne Grudam could travel there and buy lunch and support CJ and speak about how well he runs a drive through! 😛

  69. I am still shocked and surprised by how much abuse is hiding in the church. I’m hoping that the convictions of Morales, That fellow from Hammond, Indiana, and others, as well as the investigations of GRACE, will expose the horrors of what these idiots continue to cover up. What the RCC hid has been exposed and is being and appears to continue to be dealt with. The last time I was at an RCC church at least the Bishop there had taken a priest out of commission until an abuse investigation was finished. I believe the last I had heard that priest had been moved into a monastery, and the families were receiving free counseling as the investigation was still pending. I do not understand why the leaders of other churches do not take on their scriptural duty to protect the little ones. But then again I suppose they think scripture is for picking and choosing?

  70. @ leholmes:
    I wish I knew the answers to your questions.

    At least the Roman Catholic Church has begun demonstrating a better response to allegations of sex abuse in the church. It grieves me that some other churches are either in denial or simply don’t care.

  71. @ Acg116:
    Same for his wife’s. I could imagine them paying their kids a salary to manage their Twitter accounts as part of the Louisville Relocation Package Plan haha

  72. Nick

    Amen. We so need refresher courses on the difference between wolves and shepherds, wolves and sheep, and wolves and Jesus.

  73. @ Eagle:
    Yup. Mahaney is driven, he’s not led. The only thing sustaining his drive now is the club he tees off with. And my guess is, he’s frequently tee’d off.

  74. I have a niggling concern that “dark powers that be” could even now be working behind the scenes to erode away Nate’s sentence — pulling levers of ‘influence’ (read bribery, blackmail, owed favors, etc.)

    That has happened a LOT in the cases I’ve been reading about.

    Similar cases have mentioned that church leaders wrote letters and such appealing for leniency from the Court for the abuser.

    What, if any, is the procedure for writing letters to the Court or employing other methods of support for the victims? Anybody know?

    Honestly, I’d love to see every citizen in MD writing all state “powers that be” — including, but not limited to, media, members of the state legislature, the entire state executive branch — supporting the jury’s decision that we want this predator off of our streets and away from our children.

  75. Deb —

    Thank you.

    You and Dee are also heroic in my book. ‘Valiant’ comes to mind. You share large in this victory.

    You both stand faithful and strong — in the strength of His might — facing cunning deception on an appallingly difficult battlefront. Thank YOUSE.

  76. singleman wrote:

    @ leholmes:
    I wish I knew the answers to your questions.
    At least the Roman Catholic Church has begun demonstrating a better response to allegations of sex abuse in the church. It grieves me that some other churches are either in denial or simply don’t care.

    At some point Denial and willful ignorance lead to not caring at all.

  77. @ Bridget: As someone who “converted” at the height of the Jesus People movement, I think I probably am typical of many who came around at the same time, in that I was very young, idealistic, and totally unaware of the authoritarianism of pretty much *all* of the groups associated with the Jesus People/charismatic movements.

    We just absorbed that as though it was part of the Gospel itself, rather than realizing that it was contrary to Christ’s teaching and actions, because it was all cloaked in very benign, utopian-sounding language and presented by people with smiling, friendly faces.

    How wrong I was – how wrong we all were! – about it all. (Not Christ, but these nasty, creepy cultish elements and how they were used to manipulate and control us.)

  78. leholmes wrote:

    At some point Denial and willful ignorance lead to not caring at all.

    You are so right, leholmes. It would seem God agrees:

    As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, your sister Sodom and her daughters never did what you and your daughters have done.

    Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

  79. numo wrote:

    How wrong I was – how wrong we all were! – about it all. (Not Christ, but these nasty, creepy cultish elements and how they were used to manipulate and control us.)

    Me too Numes. I got whirl-pooled into the Calvary Chapel shtick back during the wind down of the Vietnam era and I bless Providence for emancipation from it.

  80. numo wrote:

    unaware of the authoritarianism of pretty much *all* of the groups associated with the Jesus People/charismatic movements.

    Paula wrote:

    It had nothing to do with the “Spirit.”

    I am still trying to understand this. You seem to be saying that the charismatic churches are authoritarian and influenced by the shepherding movement. Paula seems to be saying, I am not sure just what in the statement above, but it seems to be basically on the same issue. There seems to be an inconsistency here.

    The fundamentalist/calvinista people in the baptist tradition are fanatically anti-charismatic, anti-pentecostal and anti-continuationist. It is one of the really big deals. People have lost their jobs over this. The thing they object to is that it seems to give people too much individual power, and people seem to be saying they heard from god in some way other than directly through the bible. But if the charismatic movement is linked to shepherding, it seems they would buy right into it since there would be more control over people.

    I am thinking these two ideas are diametrically opposed–power to the people as it were vs. power to the leadership (shepherds). I don’t get it.

    Maybe the Jesus movement on the one hand, and older style pentecostalism on the other are different. And let me tread carefully here, but back in the day some of us in the east looked at california and thought there were a lot of differences between the two places, culturally, which might be significant.

    I would appreciate any insights on this anybody might have.

  81. @ Paula: Elsewhere the term “Kook-Aid” has been suggested, initially through a typo, as a better term that does not denigrate a useful commercial product.

  82. @ Nancy: Nancy, Bridget and I were both referring to the 70s-80s, which was marked by the rise of authoritarianism in many churches (a la what became SGM, Calvary Chapel – as mentioned by Muff Potter), and *many* other charismatic and non-charismatic groups that came under the influence of the so-called Fort Lauderdale Five, who ran a magazine called New Wine and who jumpstarted the shepherding (aka “discipleship”) movement.

    If you Google some of those terms, or look for history of the Jesus Movement and various charismatic movements (including the “charismatic renewal” in RCC and many mainline Protestant churches), you’ll find plenty. Also try the following names: Bob Mumford, Derek Prince, Don Basham, Ern Baxter, Charles Simpson – am blanking on the final name here, as the Five’s lineup altered at some point. At any rate, you have 5 of teir names, and I do believe that New Wine’s entire print run was/probably still is available as free PDFs on one of the better sites that gives the rundown on the shepherding movement and what happened to people in it.

    There are also problems – serious ones, both in terms of doctrine and actual policy/actions – that originated in parachurch ministries like Youth With a Mission at basically the same time. A LOT of YWAM staffers were abused and/or abusive.

    I was in charismatic churches and prayer groups from 1972-2002. All of them were eavily influenced by the Ft. Lauderdale Five as well as by Bill Gothard. In fact, That Church (the one from which I was booted in 2002) actually shared meeting space with the earliest iteration of what became SGM, back in the early 70s. (A church basement on upper Mass. Ave. NW in D.C.)

  83. @ Ardiak:
    Not a snowball’s chance in hayol. Prior to, during, and after Gaithersburg he left a trial of victims. He’s a serial pedophile and the court knows it. CLC tried fobbing off on the public this impression that Morales’ predatory behavior ended. When Layman called him in 2007 he got the answer from Morales CLC leadership wanted to hear: it all happened so long ago he couldn’t remember details. Translation: he wasn’t still practicing his sin, it was all in the distant past. CLC’s Interpretation: we’re off the hook for covering it up; he’s telling the truth.

  84. @ Nancy:

    I’m the exception that proved the rule. I moved around a whole lot in my 20’s, so I guess I was never around long enough to end up being controlled. College in particular was a blissful time when I felt extremely safe in a pretty poor, rural charismatic church.

    Much sympathy to people who did not have this kind of positive experience.

  85. @ numo: Gothard should bear more of the blame for authoritarianism than is currently ascribed to him.

    The 70s were strange: all kinds of “new teaching” floating around, gathered up and applied in often highly eclectic and idiosyncratic ways.

    Also, the shepherding/discipleship people (including the Ft. Lauderdale crew) were heavily influenced by an aberrant Pentecostal movement that has various names – one is Joel’s Army, another is Manifest Sons of God, but there are more. These groups are really pretty out there, and their ideas have a continued presence, believe me! One of the hallmarks is the use of the term “five-fold ministry”; also, as stated in names, Joel’s army and so-called “manifest sons of God.” I’ve never encountered people who openly talked about “manifest sons of God,” but I sure *have* run into Joel’s Army types, as recently as the early 00s. However, they didn’t use that name, probably because they know it won’t fly anymore.

    Postscript: I am so very grateful for the internet. It took me many years to be able to find the missing pieces to the puzzle of what I experienced in all the churches I belonged to from 1972-02. The final piece came from the research of Rachel Tabatchnick, who wrote a terrificly detailed and highly readable guide to a lot of these movements and their influence on US politics for talk2action.org The site’s politics may disagree with many here, but check out Rachel T’s work for them, please! For me, it was akin to stumbling on a platinum mine.

  86. @ Marie2: *So* glad you didn’t get sucked into the craziness – and thanks for the kind words/thoughts for those of us who did.

  87. @ An Attorney:
    Kool-aid is useful? But yeah, “Drinking the Kool-aid” has been around since Jonestown and the expression has developed a meaning all its own, replete with its own Wikipedia page.

  88. @ numo: Please also note that the terms “new Apostolic Reformation,” “Third Wave” and “Seven Mountains” are part of this as well, albeit slightly newer iterations of the same old same old.

    Hope all of this is helpful, not confusing!

  89. @ Bridget: Interestingly enough, I ran into people in the Catholic charismatic movement (in the early 70s) who were into the whole covenantal (as in, a document with rules that you signed and you dared not break any of those rules) in the early 1970s.

    afaik, they came up with it primairly from their misreading of the OT.

  90. numo wrote:

    Hope all of this is helpful, not confusing!

    Wow, numo, thanks. It will take me a while to look all that up. Great information. Thanks again.

  91. @ Nancy: Glad to help out, Nancy! The thing is, you *will* run into some pretty nutty web sites when you do searches on these names and topics. Sometimes there’s decent info. in those places, buried inside all the invective.

    You might need to be very persistent in trying to get Google to cough up info. I don’t think anyone has written a definitive history of these related movements, probably because they’re still relatively recent history (and ongoing, under other names and with slight twists, as Bridget said), partly because the kind of insider access required isn’t easy to get. And also because these things are very, very painful to many, and most of us just don’t want to talk about them.

    At this point, I have moved on with my life, after more than a decade of time processing/healing up. But there are plenty of topics and memories that hit nerves, so I just don’t think about this stuff in day-to-day life. Things are infinitely much better now that I’m outside these groups and have a chance to get some perspective and – very important – have had the freedom to think for myself again.

    I do want to be clear about one thing: by no means was *everything* and everyone I encountered during those decades tainted or messed up. I had a lot of good experiences, and I treasure them. But most things… not so much. I think that the love of Christ – and of good people – tended to break through regardless, but as to the people who led the groups/churches I was in, NO. Sadly, for them and for all of the people they harmed.

  92. I think an interesting expose would be why did Preston Mitchell, highly paid Executive Pastor at Fellowship Church, leave in August 2011 after 15 years? He stood by Ed Young during the scandal of 2010. I don’t think he left to follow his calling to be a church recruiter sales director for student services.
    How much did they pay him to keep quiet? I bet a lot.

  93. FWIW I am so sorry that some of you have had to experience what you did. I do not mean of offend any of you with my lack of information or understanding. You all have my respect and admiration for coming through what you have come through so well.

  94. @ Nancy: You didn’t offend me in the least, Nancy! If I were in your shoes, I’d doubtless have put out the same call for help/info.

    And thank you for your kind words and thoughts. They mean a lot!

  95. @ numo: Finally, I *don’t* think that “charismatic” = crazy, messed up authoritarianism or people making animals noises (as in Toronto, at Airport Fellowship’s “revival”) or the like.

    As with many other movements, the enthusiasm a lot of us had for what truly appeared to be the movement of the Holy Spirit overwhelmed better judgement. And really young people don’t necessarily have a lot of that, since they just don’t have the life experience under their belts. At any rate, that was certainly true for me, and, I’m sure, for many others who post and read here.

  96. @ Nancy:
    I’m not sure if this will help or not but what I’m describing is something Mahaney instituted that was diametrically opposed to how things operate in the Kingdom.

    The Kingdom doesn’t support lording over others. Unity isn’t derived from Christians obsequiously submitting themselves to a group of people claiming spiritual authority under the auspices that it’s God’s order and therefore evidence of one’s “humility” to yield themselves as servants to fulfilling the vision of a man, and doing so without question.

    Jesus Christ is the head of the church and our life is derived from Him. It’s also not about needing to be attached to a local church and submitted to its leadership as though that’s necessary for every Christian, without which you cannot grow.

    Bottom line is, if you are a true believer, the Kingdom of God is within you. By virtue of your Union with Christ, you are vested with the authority as a child of God to rule and reign with Him, a member of the total priesthood.

    The leadership of SGM arrogates the dominion of the Kingdom which we all share in unto themselves, assuming they exercise a higher authority that’s somehow been invested in them but which doesn’t belong others who don’t possess their unique “gifting & calling.”

    The charisma of God isn’t something we own; it’s only “ours” in the moment in which we are used by God as his vessel. And God distributes his gifts without partiality. The church must function very differently from that of organizations built on worldly structures and concepts of leadership. And the whole premise behind complementarianism is wrong for this very reason because it assumes an order derived from the Trinity that is non-existent and predicated on relationships of authority and submission, which is then misguidingly imputed to relationships within the church, quenching the work of the Spirit and minimizing the full participation of all its members.

    The Spirit doesn’t exploit people, rather the church is provided for so that Christians can be equipped for their works of service for the Lord. SGM is about your service being unto them within a system that operates in a totalistic fashion. It’s full of POD people! (1 John 4:1)

    In short, there’s not the freedom there that’s of the Spirit (1 Cor 3:17) so there’s no true experience of the presence of the Lord. It’s a counterfeit.

    Does that help?

  97. @ Paula:

    Yes it does. Thanks. When the topic is SBC or IFB I got that. I have been there and done that. I speak that language. When you all talk about SGM and and apparently related situations, I have not been there and not done that and I get disoriented, because it seems so vastly different. But then I look at who is pals with whom, and I think how could Mohler and Mahaney have any common ground at all? So I try to put it together, and maybe I see a little something sometimes and maybe I don’t.

    Now, you do know that I have spent my whole life, and for a looooong time made my living by asking the same question in different venues, “What , if anything, is wrong with this picture?” I do so appreciate the way you guys are so ready to explain what you mean. Thanks again.

  98. @ Paula

    Whew. Good to know the tactics won’t work in this case.

    In some of the cases I’ve read about — mostly from comments, commentaries, links on this site, any random (non-abuser) adult chosen from the population at large could have rendered a more just sentence.

    The lenient sentencing is such a slam to the person who has already suffered through a trial, not to mention discouraging other survivors from bringing their abusers to account.

  99. The following message is now displayed when clicking on the “About Us” link at TGC’s website:

    System Offline

    This site is currently offline”

    I wonder if something is up, especially since that link eventually leads to the names of TGC’s council members.

  100. Numo, my goddaughter spent 23 years in a mostly Catholic “charismatic covenant community.” It was heavily influenced by the shepherding movement…in fact, my goddaughter once sent me a Bob Mumford tape! I had never heard of him and was not impressed.

    My goddaughter finally escaped this toxic environment.

    Google WaPo’s lengthy series on the Mother of God community in Gaithersburg (hah!!!). This was not the group my goddaughter was in, but it was similar.

    numo wrote:

    @ Bridget: Interestingly enough, I ran into people in the Catholic charismatic movement (in the early 70s) who were into the whole covenantal (as in, a document with rules that you signed and you dared not break any of those rules) in the early 1970s.

    afaik, they came up with it primairly from their misreading of the OT.

  101. @ numo:

    I don’t think charismatic = crazy authoritarian always either. I do see the “authoritarian driven order” model in many churches though, as I mentioned above.

  102. singleman wrote:

    The following message is now displayed when clicking on the “About Us” link at TGC’s website:
    “System Offline
    This site is currently offline”
    I wonder if something is up, especially since that link eventually leads to the names of TGC’s council members.

    Interesting…I can’t even get on TGC’s main page…period. The entire site is down. I wonder what’s up?

  103. @ Catholic Homeschooler: I hear you, and first read the Post article when it was originally published. The place in question wasn’t much like the places I knew in most respects, but the overall atmosphere and dynamics seem depressingly familiar.

  104. Sensible wrote:

    singleman wrote:
    The following message is now displayed when clicking on the “About Us” link at TGC’s website:
    “System Offline
    This site is currently offline”
    I wonder if something is up, especially since that link eventually leads to the names of TGC’s council members.
    Interesting…I can’t even get on TGC’s main page…period. The entire site is down. I wonder what’s up?

    I also notice that they haven’t updated their Twitter or Facebook since yesterday.

    If it was a simple matter of “site maintenance,” why not tell everyone as much? And why go silent on Twitter and Facebook?

    It just seems a little coincidental that this happens a day after the Nate Morales verdict. Am I just paranoid?

  105.    __

    “The K-i-n-s-e-y Syndrome, Perhaps?”

    “Let the little children come and prevent them not?:  WHAT !?! The rising of the practice of child sexual abuse and the proliferation and rampant protection of the ‘sacred’ church pedophile?”

    Do you sigh and cry for all the abominations that are done in the midst of your local church?

    Do you even know?

    hmmm…

    Many years before ‘The Great Awakening’, Jonathan Edwards had been telling children and youth to seek salvation. By the end of his tenure at his church in Northampton, he had delivered some thirty of these sermons addressed to both children and young adults. 

    So What?!?

    Skreeeeeeeeeeeetch!

    What child, in today’s church climate is free to safely hear Christ’s wonderful message of hope and salvation?

    “Despite (these) clear biblical warnings, the harm done to America’s children has been all but abandoned by the modern church. Pastors and teachers of every stripe have chosen to look the other way at the rising tide of child sexual abuse that runs ramped in our society.” – Christian J. Pinto

    (sadface)

    Sopy

  106. dee wrote:

    I heard they were doing a site makeover.

    Usually with a site makeover there’s a notice that states (in some cutesy way) that the site is being made over. This has a look that says either “our servers blew up” or “we don’t want to talk right now”. Take your pick. My guess is that after the hastag war yesterday, there are a lot of people who have caught on to their crap.

  107. @ Steve D:
    If you are correct then good. As you probably know, Joe carter and I had a fairly lengthy twitter discussion. I plan to discuss it on Monday.

  108. Mark wrote:

    why did Preston Mitchell, highly paid Executive Pastor at Fellowship Church, leave in August 2011 after 15 years? H

    Preston left?? He was always major fanboy. He was there when I was there and that was a long time ago.

  109. dee wrote:

    New sign up on TGC website. They will be unveiling a new updated website on Monday.

    And so ChEKA reinvents themselves as OGPU who reinvents themselves as NKVD who reinvents themselves as KGB…

  110. Very very sorry for unjust suffering of numerous victims.

    Hopefully 3 step plan can be activated, at least the outrage, to enact serious consequences for clergy cover ups of child sexual abuse.

    Clery Act came about due to national outrage.

    Kudos to SNAP for increasing awareness and need for proper laws.

  111. Eagle wrote:

    For me happiness would be going through a drive through at McDonalds and seeing CJ pop his head out of the drive through and ask, “Do you want fries with that?”

    Especially if his manager/supervisor is a Lesbian Wiccan.

  112. Muff Potter wrote:

    Godspeed to investigators and may their digging uncover enough evidence to make an example of these vipers*.

    *A title coined by Jeannette and so richly deserved by these men.

    Vipers out of diapers?

  113. Bridget wrote:

    Yes. Agree. Especially in light of Calvary Chapel and Vineyard which started around the same time. All of them were shepherding heavy. I also believe the shepherding heavy concept is still alive — just rebranded into various veins of leading such as Prophet/Priest/King, Vision Casting, Church Discipline, Membership Contracts, Covenantal, etc.

    Again, ChEKA rebranded as OGPU rebranded as NKVD rebranded as KGB…

    “Authority Driven” Christianity seems to be in almost every vein of Protestantism. I’m not sure what happened to the Love commands.

    Why settle for Love when you can have POWER?

    “The only goal of Power is POWER.”
    — Comrade O’Brian, Inner Party, Airstrip One, Oceania, 1984

    “There is no Right, there is no Wrong, there is only POWER.”
    — Lord Voldemort

  114. Nancy wrote:

    Maybe the Jesus movement on the one hand, and older style pentecostalism on the other are different. And let me tread carefully here, but back in the day some of us in the east looked at california and thought there were a lot of differences between the two places, culturally, which might be significant.

    I would appreciate any insights on this anybody might have.

    I got reeled into the Calvary Chapel movement as a young Army vet back during he wind down of the Vietnam era. The movement itself was started by a disgruntled four-square preacher (Chuck Smith, now deceased) who branched out on his own. He was a very gifted orator and very successful with the youth-beach-hippie-surf-culture south of Los Angeles, and as you’ve pointed out, the culture is drastically different from that of the American South. They were heavy into ‘rapture theology’ (some still are), patriarchal polity, and unquestioned authoritarianism. Over the years Smith’s empire throve and grew into the multi-million dollar enterprise it is today.

  115. dee wrote:

    New sign up on TGC website. They will be unveiling a new updated website on Monday.

    Do they mean a scrubbed website?

  116. Steve D wrote:

    Usually with a site makeover there’s a notice that states (in some cutesy way) that the site is being made over. This has a look that says either “our servers blew up” or “we don’t want to talk right now”. Take your pick. My guess is that after the hastag war yesterday, there are a lot of people who have caught on to their crap.

    Don’t assume malice when technical difficulty is involved. Switching a site to a new design or worse yet a new platform is a royal pain. We’ve done it once here. It can a be made to appear seamless only with a lot of work and effort (thus $$$$$). Anyway the site has a notice up now. Let’s see what’s up Monday.

  117. @ Muff Potter:

    “patriarchal polity, and unquestioned authoritarianism” seems like anathema to “youth-beach-hippie-surf-culture south of Los Angeles”.

    but perhaps they grew in this unlikely direction over time (like the flower children who grew into capitalists).

    but how? why? yuck.

  118. GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:

    Don’t assume malice when technical difficulty is involved. Switching a site to a new design or worse yet a new platform is a royal pain. We’ve done it once here. It can a be made to appear seamless only with a lot of work and effort (thus $$$$$). Anyway the site has a notice up now. Let’s see what’s up Monday.

    Please don’t misunderstand. I have also run a web server as well as an email server. My presumption was that they might have ticked the wrong person off and got spammed out of existence. I probably didn’t make that clear enough. Legal situations like this tend to bring out the worst in people. Having spent a week between Christmas and New Years a few years back cleaning just run of the mill spam out of an email server I can only imagine what a DDoS could do. My point was that they seemed to have shut down in somewhat of a hurry since there was no sign up upon shut down. If they didn’t get a DDoS I find it a strange coincidence that they shut down the same weekend as the conviction. Call me suspicious. However, I was reading their site earlier with no notice on their home page that the rebuild would be this weekend.

  119. @ elastigirl:

    I don’t know about SoCal but within baptist fundamentalism there seem to be an identifiable subset of people who grew up in highly dysfunctional homes (back in the day that was mostly due to alcohol) and these people seem to crave a bunch of rules which they can accept as authoritative. IMO they crave the stability they have not otherwise had at home as a child and which they have not been able to establish (emotionally) as a grown up.

  120. Muff Potter wrote:

    disgruntled four-square preacher

    Oh, Muff, I am so glad you said this You can maybe give me some information I have been looking for specifically.

    About four square that is. I know of a guy, raised catholic and then as an adult involved (as a pew sitter) in a four square church in LA. That would be Jack Hayford’s church, not some offshoot. He is now doing what looks like some good work which apparently contributes to the larger mission of all-the-church. Before I get too “blessed” by what he seems to be doing however, there is the four-square issue. All I know about them I have read in Wikipedia. I have heard Hayford preach in the past and I was impressed. His catholic background is to me a plus. The fact that he is pentecostal I can deal with. I think we have a lot to learn from both the catholic church and from pentecostalism. But SoCal wacko is best treated like kudzu or copperheads, at least for me it is.

    Any information or thoughts here would be appreciated.

  121. @ dee:

    According to his Linkedin profile, he worked at FC for 15 years until August 2011. He wrote an article in 2013 “When is it OK to leave a church job.” When you Google Preston Mitchell Fellowship Church, one of the suggestions is “Why did Preston Mitchell leave Fellowship Church.”

    He was probably the highest-paid pastor on staff (outside of Ed Young, et al.)

  122. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Over the past 35+ years in working with survivors in recovery, I’ve become acquainted with numerous women and men dealing with the long-term effects of wounds inflicted by childhood sexual abuse. So, though this is not my personal story, I have come to have a greater understanding of courage, tenacity, and hope through those who have experienced this evil disruption in their development. I wish the survivors in this situation from CLC all the best and pray that being able finally to share their stories and the rendering of justice will bring some relief.

    And terrible as this personal cost was to these young men, it now puts on the legal record facts and admissions given under oath about those in the exact position of authority who allegedly knew/suspected sexual abuse and yet chose to do nothing substantial about either reporting the perpetrator to legal authorities, or to protect other children at risk of violation by removing him from access to them.

    Hopefully these people in authority will likewise be fully exposed for their legal, moral, and ethical failures which apparently resulted in more damage to more minors. There is no way to excuse away their responsibility for sins of omission under some “biblical” guise of “taking care of church problems in-house.” First facts have been confirmed: pastoral authority at CLC failed.

    And there also seems no legitimate way for those insiders and outsiders who have sought to silence critiques of CLC and SGM and particular authority figures within it to continue that tactic. Haven’t these leaders all enabled extensive damage to seep into the Church through their endorsements of celebrities and rebuttals of detractors? What responsibilities do they now have, given what has happened in the Morales case and what was revealed under oath about potential culpability of their friends/allies? Their own apparent abuses of authority and influence over the past many months since SGM issues started coming to a head seem to have more to do with relational loyalty than with any careful investigation into facts behind the issues. What will they do now if they wish to restore their own reputations?

    The Church is watching … and should give even more public push-back if the lack of transparency and accountability continues. There are those of us who do not want the world to think these kinds of leaders represent mature Christlikeness or the Church.

    I totally agree with your earlier comment I quoted above.

    In light of what was revealed in court when Grant Layman testified, it made me wonder about something…

    First, CLCs statement earlier on in all this, in which it was asserted the Pastors and Admins of the church knew nothing of Morales’ abuses, until many years later when an adult come forward, was a LIE. They knew. We know assuredly Grant Layman knew, that’s a proven fact.

    So, where was Grant Layman when this letter was drafted and subsequently released to the public, an official statement of the church?

    He was still in his official capacity as Executive Pastor at CLC. Therefore he knew the contents of the letter and approved it’s release.

    Why would he approve the release of a statement that he knew contained inaccurate and misleading information? Why release a statement at all, especially knowing it was all under investigation? It would have been better to say nothing. But they did say something that’s been disproven in court and, as far as I know there’s been no retraction. What is clear is the connection between Morales his crimes, and the efforts of Covenant Life Church, under the leadership of both Mahaney and Harris, to mislead, deceive and cover-up the known criminal activity. It proves they’re complicit in the obstruction of justice and guilty of providing misleading statements, as what has been alleged in the case against CLC that’s on appeal.
    What’s clear also is the common denominator here. Grant was on staff under CJ, and he remained on staff from 2004 onward under Harris and unlike other relatives, did not join in and move along with his sister Carolyn Mahaney, CJ’s wife, to Louisville.

    I had thought that perhaps Grant remained at CLC, which then broke ties with SGM, because of what he knew about CJ and chose to distinguish himself. Janice Dillon, Carolyn’s sister, together with her husband Roger had parted ways with CLC and CJ’s leadership around the time Larry & Doris were ousted. Despite the fact Janice lived right next door to her sister Carolyn at the time, in Gaithersburg, it seemed to have little bearing upon Carolyn, and Carolyn certainly had no bearing or made no effort to influence her husband and get him to amend his ways and seek to reconcile matters.

    No, that train had left the station and we know today how much corruption was involved in the matter of Larry & Doris’ departure from CLC leadership, and the untold (but now told) stories. And the Tomczak’s departure is what the Dillon’s departure was predicated upon.

    As an aside, and before getting back to Grant Layman, the letter, and CLC, I wanted to focus some attention here for a bit on Carolyn Mahaney and the role she has played and the extent to which she’s participated, supported and enabled all these events to occur. And I apologize for the length of all this, but it ties in. You know what? In order to save your eyes from bleeding, I’ll break this is and start a new comment as a continuation. Next comment will focus on Carolyn, her sister Janice & brother-in-law Roger, and her involvement with the Tomczak departure and the ongoing scandal involving both her, her husband, and her children and their spouses.

  123. @ Paula:
    Thanks for your commentary. With regard to Carolyn, her book True Beauty was being promoted on TGC’s website at the time it went down.

  124. I don’t really understand the need for a website to be down over a weekend to do re-design. You do all of your designing offline, don’t you? And then if you have to, you can put it online with temporary bogus URLs to click through the links and do the other testing you have to do. You’d leave the original site in place until you’re done, then just update the URLs on the new design, and there you are. The tiny bit of website maintenance I’ve done was seamless like this, and I’ve had no training at all. Other sites I go to have changes, some pretty extensive, and they seem to happen just about instantaneously.

    I’m sure there’s something I am not taking into account.

  125. All right. I see that Dee had a Twitter discussion with Joe Carter and I contributed my two cents’ worth. But it brings up a serious point. My plan is to protest the Anchored conference here in Phoenix because they are bringing in C.J. Mahaney as a featured speaker. So I’m trying to think up something short, pithy and true about Mahaney for a sign.

    I’m not opposed to carrying around something inflammatory but true. I used to picket Scientology with the picture of a young woman (Lisa McPherson) and the words YOUNG PRETTY DEAD underneath. Yes, it ticked off the Scientologists but it was true.

    Here’s a couple of sign ideas I’ve come up with:

    C.J. MAHANEY
    COVERED UP
    CHILD ABUSE

    or

    ASK C.J. MAHANEY
    ABOUT NATE MORALES

    I’m open to other suggestions.

  126. Also, would it be appropriate for me to contact the organizers of the Anchored conference to let them know in advance that they should prepare to have a mid-50s woman protesting one of their featured speakers? Maybe to give them the opportunity to yank CJ as a speaker in light of the (first) Nate Morales verdict?

  127. @ mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort:

    The first one which addresses child abuse will give more understanding to an unknowing population than the name Nate Morales.

    Contacting the administrators is a thought, but then you lose the element of surprise and the organizers may make a strategy to dismiss you. They may also have people reading here.

    Not sure what the laws are in your town regarding protests and picketing. You may want to check on that.

  128. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Muff Potter:

    “patriarchal polity, and unquestioned authoritarianism” seems like anathema to “youth-beach-hippie-surf-culture south of Los Angeles”.

    Calvary Chapel began in that “youth-beach-hippie-surf-culture south of Los Angeles”. Costa Mesa and the Orange County beach cities, to be precise. In their early days (before Lonnie Frisbee became doubleplusunperson and Papa Chuck rewrote history becoming God’s Sole Anointed), they were known for mass baptisms in the surf down here. There was even an early CCM song about it: “Full Immersion Ocean Water Baptism by the Sea”.

  129. Muff Potter wrote:

    They were heavy into ‘rapture theology’ (some still are), patriarchal polity, and unquestioned authoritarianism. Over the years Smith’s empire throve and grew into the multi-million dollar enterprise it is today.

    “Heavy into Rapture Theology” doesn’t even begin to describe it, Muff. Rapture and The Seven Last Years (beginning Any Minute Now… Any Minute Now… Any Minute Now… with detailed horrors of Tribulation and Armageddon and Global Thermonuclear War and Eternal Hell) was the First, Second, AND Third Persons of the Trinity in that crowd.

  130. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    To add to this, Elastigirl, it’s quite common for us humans to flip from one extreme to another. We tend to think we always have to go 180 degrees in the opposite direction to make sure we’re doing it right, proving ourselves, or whatever. New believers didn’t tend to ease into anything. But, then, most of us weren’t encouraged to either. A lot of what was claimed as necessary for a Christian life was man driven and not spirit led. So, I can see the one extreme to another happening pretty easily actually. The middle course always seems the most difficult to navigate. Not to mention that there is an entire vein of Christianity that went the other direction as well — Jesus power, free love, communes, etc. Most of all it seems we were following men and what they said instead of learning about Jesus and what He was about.

    My unsolicited 2 cents . . .

  131. @ Nancy: the Foursquare church is Pentecostal and founded by flamboyant evangelist Aimee Semple McPherson – about whom much has been written. She understood how to work the media, way back in the day.

  132. @ numo:

    Yeah, I read the article in Wikipedia. I am interested in whether there is the same abusive authoritarianism as apparently in the Calvary Chapel movement. And what does their style of pentecostalism look like; are they just praying for healing and expecting it to happen or are they trying to raise the dead like that guy from Arizona a while back. I am fine with AOG style pentecostalism but grabbing up rattle snakes is a bit much.

    Here is the thing, when I say I speak SBC and IFB everybody knows what that is. When some people say they speak SGM a lot of folks get that, and the rest of us are learning. But when somebody comes from LA and “speaks” four square, I don’t have a good take on what that means. I am asking for a personal reason based on a particular case at hand not directly related to this blog, but I want? need? would like? to know.

    Thanks.

  133. In other news, it turns out red wine may not be good for you after all. This from the Beeb:

    Red wine may not be as good for you as hoped, say scientists…

    The team tracked the health of nearly 800 villagers from the Chianti region of Italy to see if their local tipple had any discernable impact. They found no proof that the wine ingredient resveratrol stops heart disease or prolongs life.

    However:

    Experts say more research is needed to get a definitive answer.

    I’m working on it.

  134. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Were they or were they not chemically influenced? I am asking. I was not there, but this is what was said at the time on this side of the continent.

    Were these the indigenous Californians, or were they the bunch that loaded up in the multi-color VW vans and headed “to California”, that term being actual like the state and metaphorical like a subculture?

  135. numo wrote:

    @ Nancy: the Foursquare church is Pentecostal and founded by flamboyant evangelist Aimee Semple McPherson – about whom much has been written. She understood how to work the media, way back in the day.

    Sister Aimee founded her church in Los Angeles around 1926ish.

  136. Nancy wrote:

    I am interested in whether there is the same abusive authoritarianism as apparently in the Calvary Chapel movement.

    Calvary Chapel has the “Moses Model” of governance, where there is one guy in charge over each church and there is no real membership or accountability.

    Julie over at SSB discussed the “Moses Model” last year:

    http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/03/03/calvary-chapel-chuck-smith-the-moses-model-let-the-little-dogs-bark/

    And what does their style of pentecostalism look like; are they just praying for healing and expecting it to happen or are they trying to raise the dead like that guy from Arizona a while back.

    Well…I have never been to a CC, so I have no idea what their churches are like. However, I do know that the Vineyard group of churches came out of CC. Initially, John Wimber ended up under the CC umbrella in 1977 after he was given the left foot of fellowship by his church, which was disturbed by the spiritual gifts in evidence. However, this was short-lived, as Smith was not terribly enamored of overt expression of Pentecostal gifts. In 1982, Wimber and about 40 congregations went their own way to form the Vineyard (apparently with Smith’s blessing).

    Ironically, the Vineyard was faced with its own “too Pentecostal for us” moment in 1995 when the Toronto Area Vineyard experienced a revival with significant demonstrative Pentecostal actions. Wimber pretty much forced TAV out of the Vineyard and TAV has since morphed into Catch the Fire-Toronto with its own international church-planting mission.

  137. @ mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort: a lot of the Wiki article looks like it was copied/pasted from some early official Foursquare Church bio. of her. The phrasing is anything but contemporary, for starters.

    She should have been in show biz, and I guess she was – gospel vaudeville with a Hollywood touch.

  138. @ Nancy: not sure that the Wiki article is the best source for info. on her, but I might well be wrong.

    As for how the church operates, I have no idea. You’d probably need to do a bit of looking; there might even be Foursquare Church forums/message boards/Facebook pages out there.

  139. @ numo:

    I have checked every where that I can think. At this point I am going to assume that if there were anything horrid to be know, that information would be out there. So I am going to assume they are within the norm for pentecostalism and assume that my contact is OK and just let it lie.

    Thanks for our help. I am betting there is no big issue at this time.

  140. @ Nancy: yeah, I think it is normal for some Pentecostal churches, though the emphasis on Aimee Simple McPerson herself has always made me uneasy.

    The up side is that women are welcomed into the ministry and related positions.

  141. @ Nancy: I do know that there can be an emphasis on eternal damnation (this from an internet contact who was raised Foursquare), but that’s the extent of what little I know.

  142. numo wrote:

    a lot of the Wiki article looks like it was copied/pasted from some early official Foursquare Church bio. of her. The phrasing is anything but contemporary, for starters.

    It certainly needs pruning, but I’ve read a couple of biographies of Sister Aimee (one was definitely not sympathetic, per my memory) and it looks fairly accurate.

  143. @ mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort:
    I attended a Calvary Chapel affiliated church in Northern CA for four years. Not really pentecostal at all. Occasional tongues at special services, but it was not emphasized. It was definately a “Moses model” authoritarian structure where submission to pastors was required. My wife and I left when we could no longer accept their teaching/counseling about marriage and divorce. (they tried to push separated couples back together, even when violence was in the history. “You need to bleed for Jesus” is what one spouse was told, Yikes!) I would not consider it a safe place for women either. Very male centered in church and in families. We are very glad to have caught on to their nonsense and moved on. I do miss the good worship music and the Hawaiian shirts though.

  144. Breaking News

    Josh Harris, senior pastor of Covenant Life Church, along with three other pastors are taking a “leave of absence” from the church due  to the testimony of Grant Layman last week. This is an unexpected development and I believe it bodes poorly for SGM. I will talk about this tormorrow. Until then  #IStandWithSGMVictims.

  145. @ dee:

    I don’t envy your task. One item of interest: I just checked TGC’s list of council members, and I can’t find Mahaney or Harris. Either I missed something or TGC is stealthfully distancing itself from SGM…I doubt TGC will bother commenting on that move…

  146. @ Laura:

    That is all true. Depending on how they designed their site, they could keep all the HTML pages up and just swap out the CSS pages. They could do all the CSS tweeking off-line.

    But it depends on how severe their design change is. People usually keep the old site up until they are ready to upload the new design.

    I find the timing very strange, that they pulled this in the midst of a big controversy.

  147. Deb wrote:

    Missing in Action from TGC’s Council:
    C. J. Mahaney
    Joshua Harris

    I got a testosterone overdose looking at all those male names. It’s as if women simply do not count for anything!

  148. Breaking News

    CJ Mahaney and Josh Harris’ names removed from TGC council website. http://thegospelcoalition.org/about/council

  149. I’ve gotten a copy of the TGC About page from May 16, 2014 18:58:31 GMT (love you Google Cache). I can confirm that C.J. Mahaney and Joshua Harris have been removed.

    Also removed:

    Mike Andrus
    Voddie Baucham
    Matt Chandler
    Ryan Kelly
    Scotty Smith

    I didn’t check to see if anyone had been added because, well, it’s Sunday afternoon.

    I’ve saved the cached page to my Evernote.

  150. Sensible wrote:

    I just checked TGC’s list of council members, and I can’t find Mahaney or Harris. Either I missed something or TGC is stealthfully distancing itself from SGM…I doubt TGC will bother commenting on that move…

    Curious how TGC and similar organizations operate like the Soviet Union & Communist Chinese – scrub your history and never confront the truth

  151. Can someone explain the purpose of Harris (and maybe other pastors) taking a leave of absence now? What is this supposed to accomplish? As they say on Reddit, “explain it like I’m 5 years old.”

  152. @ mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort:

    Well, here is my 2 cents for the sudden leaves of absence….

    Lawyers might have told them that they look more “sorry” for taking a time out while more legal actions are “on the table.”

    Of course, it would have been ethical, if at the start of the whole mess, (what, 3 or 4 years ago?) these so-called leaders decided to take a leave of absence, and get to the bottom of everything.

    I ‘spose that they did not think that Nate M would be found guilty. Now that he has, I’m sure things are really hitting the fan, in many ways.

    I saw the post from Brent that he expects to write a detailed post about all the details of CLC church, later this week.

    Just want to say that I agree with you fully, that the horse has been beaten to a pulp, it’s out of the barn, and at the glue factory already. Who cares what these men do, at this point?

    If they could do unpaid internships at GRACE and/or SNAP, and learn what real abuse victims go through, during their “leave of absence” (like they won’t control with puppet strings from afar), I could feel more emotion about it.

    I think there is a legal, monetary impetus for all of this. I know that there was a big lawsuit against Larry Tomczak, a long time ago (back in 1981? I will look it up), and perhaps CLC would be less legally vulnerable if these men disappeared for a bit. What hooey.

  153. @ Marie2:

    And speaking of scrubbing…..it took some digging to just find this little snippet of news out, from http://www.charismamag.com/spirit/devotionals/daily-breakthroughs?view=article&id=54:charismatters&catid=121

    I’m sure there are posters here who were back there in 1981, and lived through that ordeal.

    Some people never learn….With inflation, $3 million amounts to much more in today’s dollars…something tells me that a good sum of money will be exacted of a large church in Gaithersburg, MD, soon…

    Where Are They Now?
    Pastor and author Larry Tomczak is now leading a church in Atlanta after surviving an embarrassing libel lawsuit.
    When Larry Tomczak was first on our cover in September 1981, he was embroiled in a bitter lawsuit with mainstream author-psychologist Thomas Harris, who had written the best-selling book I’m OK, You’re OK.

    Rumors had circulated that Harris had committed suicide, which were repeated by leading charismatic ministers. Tomczak heard the rumor and, to his chagrin, repeated it before thousands of people at a Jesus ’79 rally in Chico, Calif.

    Harris, who was very much alive at the time and fed up with the annoying charge, filed a $22 million lawsuit against Tomczak. It took three years to reach a settlement in the fall of 1983.

    “That was a character-building season for me,” Tomczak says. “The lesson learned for me was to make sure you always get your facts straight. And second, it’s good to say, ‘allegedly.'”

  154. Marie2 wrote:

    filed a $22 million lawsuit against Tomczak. It took three years to reach a settlement in the fall of 1983.

    OOps I read that too quickly and translated it into $3 million. Well, I’m sure a large sum of money was shelled out back then, and there is a good chance that an even larger sum of money will be exacted of certain people, pretty soon….

  155. @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
    My guess is they’ve sicked their boy Joe Carter on this….he’s all over twitter and FB with the most inane defenses. Even went as far as saying cj was “never accused in the court documents of participating in a cover up”…This is really baghdad bob kind of stuff, and supremely frightening, and even more so, a terrible witness.

  156. So now that CJ Mahaney is no longer with TGC…does this mean the article on “Gospel Centered Chicken McNuggets” is off? 😯 I was looking forward to reading about how to eat McNuggets and how they fit into the Lord’s sovereignty. Was the chicken foreordained to become a McNuggest?!? 😯 Theological minds need tii know!!!!

  157. @ Eagle:
    Yes, I agree with you here….Maybe they are betting on there being very few people out there who have studied history, or can connect the dots of what is really going on?

    …HUG, leaving a blank here for you to add your wonderful Soviet Union inspired quotes……

  158. Eagle wrote:

    Theological minds need tii know!!!!

    Yes, we sure do! Thank you for bringing this timely question to our attention!

  159. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    How long until Mohler et. al. repent of their foolishness? I will be very interested to hear the spin on this one.

    My guess is that after a thorough history purge/website scrubbing, they will move along as if none of this had ever happened…

    Maybe at the next conference, CJ will be forced to sit 3 rows back…

  160. Oh Nooooooo….they forgot to scrub this review of last year’s conference, from Carl Trueman!!

    http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2012/04/t4g-made-me-look-like-a-girlym.php

    “…The highlights for me were C J Mahaney’s sermon on discouragement…”

    referred to at this link:
    http://t4g.org/about/

    “Together for the Gospel began as a friendship between four pastors. These friends differed on issues such as baptism, polity and the charismatic gifts. But they were committed to standing together for the main thing—the gospel of Jesus Christ.”

    “In the years since, faces have changed,…” (!!)

    Can anyone find a previous page that has an announcement of the Arizona Conference that includes CJ Mahaney in there somewhere, even in the “about” page???

    Just curious…..

  161. @ Marie2:

    Maybe this group has a delay going on in its scrubbing, I realize the other people on this thread were talking about the Gospel Coalition. So many Gospelly groups, so little time….

    And Together for the Gospel has CJ’s signature at this page:
    http://t4g.org/about/affirmations-and-denials-2/

    Deep concern for what and who, can you guys repeat that????

    We are also brothers united in deep concern for the Church and the Gospel.” –

    Resist the allure of pragmatism??? Really????

    “Article III
    We affirm that truth ever remains a central issue for the Church, and that the Church must resist the allure of pragmatism and postmodern conceptions of truth as substitutes for obedience to the comprehensive truth claims of Scripture.”

  162. Bridget wrote:

    To add to this, Elastigirl, it’s quite common for us humans to flip from one extreme to another. We tend to think we always have to go 180 degrees in the opposite direction to make sure we’re doing it right, proving ourselves, or whatever.

    Good point Bridget. I’ve noticed the 180 degree flip-a-rooney thing too, in conversions from atheism to Christianity and vice versa. A good example of the vice versa case would be our friend Fendrel (past TWW visitor) who at one time was a hardcore apologist for reformed theology and practice, and is now a professing atheist.

  163. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    (beginning Any Minute Now… Any Minute Now… Any Minute Now…

    Bless Providence I’ve still got a few moments before I get cast into the lake of fire along with the beast and the false prophet.

  164. dee wrote:

    Breaking News

    Josh Harris, senior pastor of Covenant Life Church, along with three other pastors are taking a “leave of absence” from the church due  to the testimony of Grant Layman last week. This is an unexpected development and I believe it bodes poorly for SGM. I will talk about this tormorrow. Until then  #IStandWithSGMVictims.

    The congregation of Covenant Life Church overwhelmingly voted to disaffiliate from SGM about a year and a half ago, so I’m not sure the CLC leaves of absence will change much about SGM. If SGM or his church in Louisville ask C.J. Mahaney to step aside, that would be more significant.

  165. numo wrote:

    @ Marie2: *So* glad you didn’t get sucked into the craziness – and thanks for the kind words/thoughts for those of us who did.

    Thank you very much for not arguing with my personal story of not being controlled.

    I was in college, and the church was off campus…

    I moved around a whole lot after….

    I have a very obnoxious personality in person, or at least I did when I was much younger. Being a childhood sexual abuse victim can really do that to people.

    I have that 3rd trait to be super grateful for. No one wanted to disciple me with a 10 foot pole. Finally, having few social skills due to terror and isolation come in real handy. I don’t talk about my abuse much because I’m pre verbal and memory is spotty. But I know that I know that I know. …Have checked things out with a few trained professionals in the last 5 years….

    Numo you sound like you have a great personality and likely discipleship material. So sorry for what you went through, Hope you feel much healing here

  166. mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

    Also removed:
    Mike Andrus
    Voddie Baucham
    Matt Chandler
    Ryan Kelly
    Scotty Smith

    I just looked, and Voddie Baucham’s photo is still there. Didn’t check for the other names, except that I noticed Scotty Smith’s photo/name was not there.

  167. @Numo: tried to write nice reply to you from my phone….messed things up, now in moderation. …If comment doesn’t make it, just wanted to say I truly appreciate you, and hope you continually find healing through your wonderful contributions to this blog/sound board.

  168. Eagle wrote:

    As a history major…why or why does this sudden purge of people from TGC remind me of Joseph Stalin’s purges. On to of that there is the following:

    -No statement
    -Sudden changes
    -Hide information
    -Handle in a stealth manner
    -Hush, hush, manner

    Did they have The Gospel Coalition meeting in Louisville or the Soviet Party Congress?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_the_Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union

    Is there really any measurable difference? (Just saying…….)

  169. I would like to know why John Yates, rector (senior pastor) of the Falls Church Anglican, serves on TGC’s council. Also, why hasn’t he taken a stand against the SGM/CLC child sex abuse coverup even though the diocese with which TFC Anglican is affiliated has a policy in place for the protection of children?

    http://www.anglicandoma.org/pocpolicy

  170. Muff Potter wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    (beginning Any Minute Now… Any Minute Now… Any Minute Now…

    Bless Providence I’ve still got a few moments before I get cast into the lake of fire along with the beast and the false prophet.

    Hey!!!! It’s not nice to make a cranky old lady like me spit tea all over her nice new monitor!

  171. Nancy wrote:

    Were these the indigenous Californians, or were they the bunch that loaded up in the multi-color VW vans and headed “to California”, that term being actual like the state and metaphorical like a subculture?

    I would venture to say that Smith’s hardcore cadre of young bucks he groomed to be his lieutenants were Southern Calif. natives or transplants who could claim residence from late childhood on. It’s noteworthy too that the young bucks from back then are old bucks now (me included–although no longer evangelical) and fading fast. You know, balding pates, spare tires, out of warranty, the whole nine yards. In the glory days of the movement Papa Chuck was adamantly anti-Calvinism but I’ve heard through the gossip pipe that some of the young bucks coming up through the ranks have been flirting with Driscoll. But as is usually the case with gossip, it’s probably much ado about nothing and cannot be substantiated.

  172. Muff Potter wrote:

    In the glory days of the movement Papa Chuck was adamantly anti-Calvinism but I’ve heard through the gossip pipe that some of the young bucks coming up through the ranks have been flirting with Driscoll.

    Much in the same way I would imagine that the young movers & shakers in the People’s Republic of China would only dare to harbour thoughts of free-market reforms after Chairman Mao was gone.

  173. Pingback: Thoughts on Abuse, Position, Power – and Restitution | futuristguy

  174. elastigirl wrote:

    “patriarchal polity, and unquestioned authoritarianism” seems like anathema to “youth-beach-hippie-surf-culture south of Los Angeles”.

    but perhaps they grew in this unlikely direction over time (like the flower children who grew into capitalists).

    but how? why? yuck.

    Tack hammer, roofer’s hammer, or ditch-diggers maul, it’s hard to find the head of this nail but I think Don McLean does the best shot in his song American Pie:

    Oh, and there we were all in one place
    A generation lost in space
    With no time left to start again
    So come on, Jack be nimble, Jack be quick
    Jack Flash sat on a candlestick
    ‘Cause fire is the devil’s only friend

  175. All the talk against Mahaney and SGM was viewed and dismissed as gossip. But those of us who broke with the organization have known the dissent was not “gossip” being spouted by disgruntled ex-members. Brent Detwiler was labeled an enemy and blacklisted and people were told to stay away from reading the blogs. People have remained attached to CLC or SGM by virtue of rebellion. It’s clear the where the distinction lies. It’s not the blogs that need to change. It’s not Brent Detwiler that needs to repent. All this has been driven by the knowledge, conviction and testimonies of numerous witnesses sharing their stories of abuse and unbiblical church leadership and teachings, and the faith that God was involved and thatiit’s been His Will for sin to be exposed and all the lies and abuse to be brought to the light.

    Praise the Lord for the power of His truth and the mighty work of His Spirit, and for His judgments! He will build His church, hallelujah. Anything not built upon the Rock will be destroyed according to the out workings of His Will and purposes.

    The scale has clearly been tipped and CJ Mahaney and his company have been found wanting, and that’s becoming more obvious everyday. The strength of their lies and deceptions have been weakened and exposed. And it’s only going to increase with even greater momentum now.

    CJ Mahaney, it’s time for you to ask your buddy Bob Kauflin to assemble his band so he can provide the background music to the sinking of your ship. Oh, and in case you’re wondering, the lifeboats were filled and launched long ago while you stood there supported by your family as you said, “Iceberg? What Iceberg? Anyone who talks about an iceberg is a gossip and a liar!”

  176. zooey111 wrote:

    Muff Potter wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    (beginning Any Minute Now… Any Minute Now… Any Minute Now…

    Bless Providence I’ve still got a few moments before I get cast into the lake of fire along with the beast and the false prophet.

    Hey!!!! It’s not nice to make a cranky old lady like me spit tea all over her nice new monitor!

    Precisely!I made a huge very unfeminine (very usurping) snort. Muff, you crack me up.

  177. My ears are ringing with the deafening silence on this in the blogdom I usually frequent from time to time. There are blogs I have personally benefitted from both in the UK and (especially) America, including Mohler. Why the silence on this? I’m happy to be generous and allow time for some reflection first, but it is not as though this legal unveiling of what has been going on is a sudden surprise that no-one expected.

    These teaching/aplogetic blogs are carrying on business as usual at present. Arguing about how long a “day” is or upholding the bible on homosexuality are perfectly legitimate, but seem somewhat trite (to say the least of it) in what has been going on within the church rather than outside it. It is this latter that has struck me – noses buried in books delving into the nuances of Hebrew and Greek but missing the horrors that should have been seen by looking around.

    We need to mourn not just for the victims, but for the immense damage this is doing to the gospel and Christian evangelism. Men in leadership have been deeply deceived into thinking covering up sin is correct because otherwise our witness will be compromised. It’s no good being together for a descredited gospel.

    The name of God is blasphemed amongst the Gentiles because of them.

  178. @ numo:

    Ummmm… You mean you were there, and remember 1981 and the lawsuit, or you mean you are getting good healing from posting here? Now you got me curious. .Hahaha

  179. Marie2 wrote:

    And Together for the Gospel has CJ’s signature at this page:

    “We are also brothers united in deep concern for the Church and the Gospel.”

    Indeed. Aren’t we all!

    And regarding “resisting the allure of pragmatism”…

    Article III:
    We affirm that truth ever remains a central issue for the Church, and that the Church must resist the allure of pragmatism and postmodern conceptions of truth as substitutes for obedience to the comprehensive truth claims of Scripture.

    If I might pick up the baton Marie2’s been running with:

    Point 1 of 2
    Trouble is… it seems that these united concerned brothers decided to deal with the allure of pragmatic sin by projecting it onto others and saying to themselves that they had no such sin; and John (as in, 1 John) was right. In doing so, they deceived themselves and alienated the truth. Now, that process is bearing ever-more-obvious fruit. They are, before the eyes of church and world, attempting to deny what everyone can now see.

    Point 2 of 2
    The “truth”… the trouble is that the Truth is not a set of doctrines but Jesus. Forgive me if I recall incorrectly, but I think it was Steve S who made the point here that the fundamentalist belief, that the Gospel can be reduced to a set of axioms, is a basic mistake. That’s something these men have never understood. The footprint isn’t the same as the shoe. My shoes wear down in a manner that is unique to me. If someone steals my shoes, they may well leave a footprint that looks practically identical to mine. But it will never be my footprint: it is a counterfeit, left by a thief. Someone without love, for the poor, the downtrodden, the least of these, from whom they can gain no kudos or plaudits, who preaches technically accurate doctrine, is still preaching a false Gospel.

  180. singleman wrote:

    I would like to know why John Yates, rector (senior pastor) of the Falls Church Anglican, serves on TGC’s council. Also, why hasn’t he taken a stand against the SGM/CLC child sex abuse coverup even though the diocese with which TFC Anglican is affiliated has a policy in place for the protection of children?
    http://www.anglicandoma.org/pocpolicy

    Singleman,

    I contacted john Yates some time ago and (politely) and explained my concerns, asking him why he was on TGC as a Council member. He answered me, but would not engage about it. That’s one of the main reasons I left my ACNA church (not Falls Church, but a church plant in Mass) and am back with the Episcopalians. I would encourage you to ask him. I also contacted Tim Keller, and got no response.

  181. Sorry, I messed that up. The second half of that post is my words, not Singleman’s.

  182. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Someone without love, for the poor, the downtrodden, the least of these, from whom they can gain no kudos or plaudits, who preaches technically accurate doctrine, is still preaching a false Gospel.

    Technically accurate but loveless.

    Absolutely. And this principle is so pervasive in so many areas of life that I fail to see why they don’t get it. I bet they think that in their marriage there has to be love. I bet they think they love their children. But love Jesus? Love people? Well, good buddy preacher man, what is it that you don’t understand here?

    Or maybe I do get it, sort of, from personal experience. When I was a kid I played the violin. Youngish kid, junior high, too young to deal with life. Not that I particularly wanted to play, but they had dangled the hope of a scholarship in front of me, and I had no other way, or so it seemed, to go to college. Problem was, it would have come with some entanglements, but what are you going to do. (Read: ambivalence) So at one lesson about that time there I was playing like crazy a piece I had just got to performance level (or so I thought) and of which I was proud, the Vivaldi Concerto in A Minor, when crack, wham, huge pain in the top of my head where my teacher had whacked me –hard–with the back of her bow. “No” she hollered at me. “What? It was right” I said. And she replied, “It was technically correct, but you do not feel it.” It had never occurred to me in the least that there was anything to feel about a Vivaldi concerto. Clueless. Totally surprised. You just get your brain and your fingers in sync and move on, right? No. You don’t. You love it or you go do something else with your life. And right then I knew I could not pull it off, scholarship or not.

    Sometimes I think that sort of “don’t get it” it is endemic in the professional clergy. The took the scholarship, so to speak, and they never got the message. They aimed for performance level, amidst ambivalence, as in would the ministry not be a nice clean semi-academic pursuit if only one did not have to deal with the unwashed masses and their issues. And it is a joy to see the court whack one of them over the head–hard. The church (people of God) need to do some serious head whacking before a lot more people get hurt.

  183. Daisy wrote:

    Some of their site can still be accessed. Such as Opinion Section
    From what I’ve seen so far, it’s just the home page that’s pretty much off line.

    Typical during a site upgrade. Unless you spend real $$$$ you either get to live with this as you re-arrange things or you literally erase the site and then put it back up new. Otherwise those deep links get to be “hit” while you move the rest of the “furniture” around.

    Again, the “web” and things like WordPress were not really designed with what we have today with websites and blogs. Not at all.

    Anyway TGC is back up as of now.

  184. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    How long until Mohler et. al. repent of their foolishness?

    Repentance will come when it can be turned into profit. We hardly ever see true repentance. The “Christian Celebrity Cult” repents when they can write a book and hold a conference on their “repentance.” I would not be surprised if these are not already in the works.

  185. Joshua Harris Requests Leave of Absence until Issue of Not Reporting Morale’s Crimes to Police Is Fully Addressed

    I haven’t double checked to see if this is how Harris worded it but it comes across sounding like addressing the issue is in the hands of others.

    If they were taking an active role in addressing the issue they would QUIT THEIR JOBS

    There should be no effort on the part of the congregation to preserve these men and their jobs after they DECEIVED them last year and wrote the church didn’t know about the abuse “until many years later” as though none of them knew.

    There’s nothing to investigate. Storm the stage. Take the mic. AND THROW THE BUMS OUT!!!

  186. Laura wrote:

    I don’t really understand the need for a website to be down over a weekend to do re-design. You do all of your designing offline, don’t you? And then if you have to, you can put it online with temporary bogus URLs to click through the links and do the other testing you have to do. You’d leave the original site in place until you’re done, then just update the URLs on the new design, and there you are.

    Daisy wrote:

    That is all true. Depending on how they designed their site, they could keep all the HTML pages up and just swap out the CSS pages. They could do all the CSS tweeking off-line.

    OK folks. All developers hate to hear the words “all you need to do is…”. It usually is the start of a bad day/week/month/whatever.

    There are 1000s of variations on how web sites are hung together. And depending on decisions made up front and money spent up front or at the time it can be trivially easy to change the layout of a site on the fly or incredibly difficult to do so. And since most sites of the size of TGC’s are contracted out you also get into way ease of re-design baked into the spec or not. And was the new design done by the same firm using the same tools. And on and on and on.

    And if a new design involved a $20K+ contract signed 4 months ago with this weekend as the date to go live, well timing is everything.

    And yes they still could have taken things down for cleaning some things up that have become embarrassments. Not saying they didn’t. But I’ve been on the receiving end of all kinds of issues where people thought my timing behind the behind the curtain was thought to be for reasons other than “it was just time to do it”. Not talking about TWW here folks.

    Let’s drop this. For most non trivial sites on the internet a semi-major change to the layout can be a royal pain. Let’s move on.

  187. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    In other news, I managed to waste half an hour this morning solving Google’s darned fiddly Rubik Cube puzzle. But I did it!

    Then don’t download 2048 for your tablet or smart phone. We may not see you again for days.

  188. No More Perfect wrote:

    The SGM and TGC people are the biggest bunch of cowards

    No, they act like MEN™.

    If they have such a low view of “Biblical Manhood”, they might consider doing the right thing out of human decency.

    But, then again, they can’t: because TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

    Sorry about the sarcasm, if not b…..ness.

  189. Paula wrote:

    There’s nothing to investigate. Storm the stage. Take the mic. AND THROW THE BUMS OUT!!!

    I’m with you Joan of Arc! 🙂

  190. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    NC Now wrote: Then don’t download 2048 for your tablet or smart phone. We may not see you again for days. Fortunately, I have neither tablet nor smart phone.

    That's most unfortunate. 😉

    Just kidding…

  191. For the Mahaniacs (Mahaney fanboys) who are upset that C.J. is no longer 'serving' on TGC's Council, take heart…

    He's still a Council Member for the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (CBMW).

  192. @ Paula:

    Paula, I’m looking forward to your post on Carolyn Mahaney.

    I follow the GirlTalk blog and have found it increasingly bizarre and fascinating. Even a recent post about how to teach GIRLS how to control their emotions (like boys don’t have emotions??) starting from a young age which will lead to obedience and 8 year-olds regularly confessing and grieving over their sin and the sins of others…it’s increasingly disturbing stuff.

  193. TW wrote:

    Paula wrote:
    There’s nothing to investigate. Storm the stage. Take the mic. AND THROW THE BUMS OUT!!!
    I’m with you Joan of Arc!

    Make a whip out of cords first. There’s a good precedent.

  194. said a few weeks back that TGC is kellers baby, and at some point he’d have to own it. I”ve been a huge fan of him over the years, but that is waning quickly…..even have entertained thoughts of leaving our PCA church that was a redeemer ny plant. I’d say the time to own is now…

  195. andrew wrote:

    said a few weeks back that TGC is kellers baby, and at some point he’d have to own it. I”ve been a huge fan of him over the years, but that is waning quickly…..even have entertained thoughts of leaving our PCA church that was a redeemer ny plant. I’d say the time to own is now…

    Yep, it's time for Keller to put up or shut up.  This is a tenuous time for The Gospel Coalition.

  196. Bridget wrote:

    To add to this, Elastigirl, it’s quite common for us humans to flip from one extreme to another. We tend to think we always have to go 180 degrees in the opposite direction to make sure we’re doing it right, proving ourselves, or whatever.

    Communism begets Objectivism.

    My most familiar type example is from Furry Fandom, specifically the hangers-on of Pathological Furry Haters. These are usually ex-Furries; despite their foaming with rabid hatred towards those Furverts and Furfags, you see them attending every Furry con. They are just as FURRY FURRY FURRY as ever, just they’ve flipped from Total Blind Adoration to Total Blind Hatred.

  197. Elastigirl wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Do you know anything about the group from which Chuck Smith sprang, the four square people?

    Not much. I think they began with that original Megachurch of the Roaring Twenties, Angelus Temple of Aimiee Semple MacPherson in Los Angeles. Sort of the charismatic-pastor-founder media Gigachurch and Calvary Chapel of its day. I understand it provided quite a show with its services. Sister Aimee burned out and fell in a scandal, but her movement continued.

  198. Elastigirl wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy

    To me, all the more befuddling why the freedom-loving sand & salt water free spirits would embrace authoritarian patriarchal horsesht as “what a good idea!”

    Simple. They’re personally benefiting from it.

    In George R R Martin’s pre-Game of Thrones series Wild Cards (a pulp superhero series), there’s this one background character in the past of the Ace (super) The Radical AKA Captain Trips — the unobtainable girlfriend. She appears three times:
    1) First time we see her is The Fifties — High School Cheerleader, Queen Bee of the High School Smart Set, arm candy on the arm of the Varsity Quarterback, with utter contempt for any boy not a Varsity Quarterback.
    2) Second time we see her is Berkely in The Sixties — total Radical, sex toy of all the Radicals and Intellectuals (who are always reminding you of that fact), dressed like a grunge-hippie, duckspeaking all the Radical Slogans of the time. Karl Marx and Chairman Mao weren’t radical enough, she quotes Comrade Pol Pot.
    3) The third and last time we see her is in the Reagan Years — in a Power Suit with a coke-spoon necklace, driving a top-of-the-line Beemer from her highrise Financial Arbitrage office to her Gated Community. The Total Yuppie; if she recites any Party Line anymore, it’s Ayn Rand/Atlas Shrugged.

    Note the one constant in all of this. Total selfishness, total self-absorption. What’s In It For ME? Just the trappings chameleon to whatever is Fah-Shionable at the moment in the pond she currently swims in.

  199. Nancy wrote:

    Were these the indigenous Californians, or were they the bunch that loaded up in the multi-color VW vans and headed “to California”, that term being actual like the state and metaphorical like a subculture?

    Is there a difference?

    It’s the Curse of the Rose Bowl, I tell you. No matter how bad the winter weather around here, it’s always Perfect and Clear on New Years Day in Pasadena. We could be having floods and mudslides all over LA but when the Rose Bowl goes over the airwaves all over the country (including snow country), it’s always Sunny and Warm and Clear and PERFECT. Around a week into January all the U-Hauls with out-of-state plates start showing up all over SoCal. Out-of-state plates from states with record snowfall and blizzards blizzards blizzards.

  200. Ken wrote:

    I’m happy to be generous and allow time for some reflection first, but it is not as though this legal unveiling of what has been going on is a sudden surprise that no-one expected.

    I think the time for reflections long past. Why would it take a court hearing to find out the truth of this matter? Did the SGM leadership have Grant handcuffed to a radiator but he just wouldn’t talk? It is hard for any reasonable reflective person to believe that the CLC and SGM leadership was completely ignorant of this – and if they were, then they are guilty of gross – even wonton – dereliction of duty.

  201. @ May:
    Hi May, thanks and yes I got sidetracked but I intend to get back to that. When I was in SGM at CLC I knew only the complementarian interpretation of Scripture, which I have learned is erroneous.

    The Mahaney’s presented themselves as models of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, the paradigms of complementarianism. It’s not true. Carolyn pretended to function in her own sphere, outside that of her husband’s, in keeping with the strict roles they assigned to others.

    Men were the exclusive heads of households, instructed to be in control of every aspect including managing the household finances.

    Studies prove that when women are invested with the management of the family finances, they place on a higher priority on the welfare of their children above everything else.

    On a personal note: I consistently sought out support because my husband, in managing our family finances, completely shut me out. The only allowance I was given was to buy food and everything else was a battle. But week after week he cut checks to the church.

    CJ put down “furniture from a box” and promoted Ethan Allen furnishings, like what theybought, from the pulpit. Carolyn Mahaney would share how she shopped for clothes at one of those upscale women’s stores in the Gaithersburg Mall, the kind you walk into and an attendant helps you with choosing your expensive outfits. She routinely took her daughters away on shopping trips, and encouraged women to finish their Christmas shopping in October.

    She shares in the YouTube video in which she honored her husband that she had to be careful expressing something she wanted because he would run out and buy it.

    Yet, I got nowhere in receiving support for the main problem negatively affecting my marriage. My husband turned a deaf ear to my requests. My needs didn’t matter not to mention my wants. He controlled and abused me emotionally, financially and in other ways. The response? He was under no obligation to change. My task was to stay submitted. It was my tough luck.

    I knew other women who managed the family budget. I was busy raising five children and home full-time doing so. It was an arrangement my husband supported. But he would not allow me the financial power it took for my home to reflect my care. Even buying my kids new shoes was a fight. And my husband made good money.

    You might imagine how I felt when reading Brent Detwiler’s documents when I came across this piece of information he shared: “Carolyn had always managed the finances.”

    I know this is seemingly insignificant, but I ended up so damaged by this. It really handicapped me and proved an obstacle to me in becoming self-determining, making it difficult to find my footing post divorce. And the financial abuse continues. He still uses it in an attempt to control me. It’s like I escaped Egypt’s enslavement through God’s intervention, signs and wonders, but am pursued by the horse and rider that w subject ants me to remain subject to the hard, unbelieving heart of the Pharoah. What I need now is a Red Sea experience.

    This is what Carolyn Mahaney does. Her instructions are intended to be what others are supposed to do, while the life she leads bears little reflection to that which she imposes on others.

    “They tie up burdens that are heavy and unbearable and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they refuse to lift a finger to help them.” Matt 23:4

    Btw, does Carolyn say much about Chad? Seems the focus is always on what her daughters are doing. Doesn’t her “girltalk” include talking about her son? Any information forthcoming about what’s going on in his life?

  202. @ Patricia Hanlon:
    Thanks. I too am an Anglican and ACNA member, and I probably should have mentioned that in my post.

    I respect your decision, but I’ve got no intention of returning to the Episcopal Church. In addition to my theological differences with the current Episcopal leadership, I’m appalled by their scorched-earth litigation strategy against departing congregations, including mine.

    As for John Yates, I hope he gives an explanation at some point, preferably sooner rather than later. At least the diocese with which his church is affiliated has made child protection a top priority, and that is good.

  203. andrew wrote:

    said a few weeks back that TGC is kellers baby, and at some point he’d have to own it. I”ve been a huge fan of him over the years, but that is waning quickly…..even have entertained thoughts of leaving our PCA church that was a redeemer ny plant. I’d say the time to own is now…

    Agreed 100% Andrew. The time is NOW. In the 2 years or so since I became aware of the SGM/CLC mess, and particularly after the filing of the civil lawsuit, I’ve been waiting for Keller to “own it” re: TGC.

    Crickets. chirping. 🙁

    Like you, I’ve considered myself an admirer (and consumer) of Tim Keller’s writing for many years now, even after I’d become completed disillusioned with Reformed circles.

    Now I’m past the point of being incredibly disappointed with Keller’s complete silence – I’m getting angry about it. I’d be really angry if I attended Redeemer or a Redeemer plant.

  204. @ Paula:

    Thanks for that reply. I am sorry you were financially (and emotionally) abused, but rejoice that you have ‘seen the light’ and I hope you will find ongoing healing. It angers me that Complementarianism, when practised to its full, can often result in actual abuse of women.

    No, Chad is hardly ever mentioned on the blog. Neither is Kristen – I don’t think she likes the publicity. Recently the blog has just become one big advertisement for Janelle’s poster business – most posts are just pictures of new products, information on offers (my they’re pricey) and links to the shop. Also the girls’ books are heavily promoted. However, there is still the odd post – like the one on girls having to be taught to ‘control their emotions’ – that stop me in my tracks.

  205. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    I hear you. My sister lived in Thousand Oaks for a right long time, and several aunts/uncles/cousins wintered over out in the desert outside of Desert Hot Springs. Ever single day I was out there at either place the weather was always sunny and dry. Sometimes hideously hot, especially in the desert, but never cold or dreary.

    I went out there off an on during the late 70s and early 80s, but I never say any weirdos. Ran into a gaggle of high school hoods blocking an intersection one time, but that was all.

  206. @ May:
    Thanks May, blessed by your response 🙂

    I know that He is my dwelling place, and my refuge. Those that make Him their dwelling place will be delivered, and He will be with them in trouble. I know this is true. (Ps 91) We all have our trials and tribulations we must go through, and He blesses us with the faith to overcome, hallelujah (1 Jn 5:4).

    Everyone needs to be warned away from what Carolyn Mahaney teaches. There’s no meat on those dead men’s bones.

  207. One of Chad’s very few FB posts. So sad.
    “The deepest need that you and I have in weakness and adversity is not quick relief, but the well-grounded confidence that what is happening to us is part of the greatest purpose of God in the universe – the glorification of the grace and power of his Son – the grace and power that bore Him to the cross and kept him there until the work of love was done.” – John Piper

  208. @ Patti:

    Poor Chad. I really don’t want worship John Piper’s God, who comes across as too high-falutin’ to care about issues like child abuse in church.

  209. @ Patti:
    That is sad. What a little man, using quotes in the form of drawn swords that he posts, and then runs away from providing context or application.

    Strikes me as the behavior of a coward.

  210. My advice to Tim Keller (if he is reading, which he is not) from a fellow minister in the PCA:

    Pull out of “The Gospel Coalition” altogether, and focus your considerable wisdom, intelligence, energy, and love on your own “City to City” network, denomination, presbytery, and church.

    In a word, let the dead bury their dead.

    The “Coalition” was coalesced on the basis of things like influence, popularity, personalty, etc., and certainly NOT the “Gospel.” This was fairly obvious from the start, and is patently obvious now.

    “The Gospel Coalition” was and is certainly not a gospel coalition. Here are some infinitely superior Gospel Coalitions (in no particular order):

    The Methodist Church
    The Presbyterian Church
    The Congregational Church
    The Lutheran Church
    The Anglican Church
    I could go on and on.
    Even the UCC is an infinitely superior Gospel Coalition.

  211. (off topic)
    The Southern Baptist “Biblical Woman” site is no longer operating.

    It was only launched a few months ago, I think, so it’s really strange it’s no longer working.

    If you try visiting their site now, you will get a message on the page that says things like,

    Server Error in Application “BIBLICAL WOMAN”
    HTTP Error 404.2 – Not Found

    The page you are requesting cannot be served because of the ISAPI and CGI Restriction list settings on the Web server.

    Most Likely Causes
    No handler mapping for this request was found. A feature may have to be installed.
    The Web service extension for the requested resource is not enabled on the server.
    The mapping for the extension points to the incorrect location.
    The extension was misspelled in the browser or the Web server.

    Their site was discussed in various publications such as:
    Seminary website lists aspects of ‘biblical womanhood’

    Their claim to care about unmarried women (that you see in their comments on the page) is a bunch of foof. They do not. Their main focus remains married women who are parents.

  212. Re: Your breaking news on 5-18—in which we find that Josh Harris and CJ have been ‘removed’ from TGC board—

    Looks like the rest of the rats are tossing the publicly tainted ones overboard!

    It will be amusing to watch how they enjoy being thrown under the bus!

    Score for the victims!

  213. The SBC house organ, Baptist Press, has no, zero, coverage of the Morales trial or the fallout at SGM or TGC.

    There is also zero coverage about the court cases involving Caner, which he lost by summary judgment (meaning no jury could ever agree with his claim!) with language by the federal judges that suggest that Caner had lied.

  214. You know what gets me? Mahaney and Harris will resign. No statement. No press release. Nothing! Others in the blogospherre are quiet. Why do the Deebs have bigger balls than Al Mohler, John Piper, etc…

    Isn't it time you act like men?

  215. Patti wrote:

    One of Chad’s very few FB posts. So sad.
    “The deepest need that you and I have in weakness and adversity is not quick relief, but the well-grounded confidence that what is happening to us is part of the greatest purpose of God in the universe – the glorification of the grace and power of his Son – the grace and power that bore Him to the cross and kept him there until the work of love was done.” – John Piper

    Imagine what that reads like to a 10 year old child being subjected to abuse as it is flashed up on a screen during a Sunday morning sermon and all the ADULTS in the room are nodding and amening 🙁

  216. An Attorney wrote:

    The SBC house organ, Baptist Press, has no, zero, coverage of the Morales trial or the fallout at SGM or TGC.

    doubleplusungood ref doubleplusunevent.

  217. Bridget wrote:
    Imagine what that reads like to a 10 year old child being subjected to abuse as it is flashed up on a screen during a Sunday morning sermon and all the ADULTS in the room are nodding and amening

    It. is. soul crushing.

  218. @ Sara:

    Imagine it is like for the same child to be growing up in a calvinist or semi-calvinist home and be told that he/she might not be one of the elect. The rest of us seem to be, but we don’t know about you.

  219. TW wrote:

    Paula wrote:

    There’s nothing to investigate. Storm the stage. Take the mic. AND THROW THE BUMS OUT!!!

    I’m with you Joan of Arc!

    I love these historical references. Of course I’ve heard of her, but I still needed to brush up. I did not know “the technical reason for her execution had been a Biblical clothing law.” (Wikipedia)

    I’m wear jeans a lot when I post 😀

    Will the members of CLC take action? Doubtful. They’ll be taken in by the Harris’ emotionalism by which he’ll buy himself time, and hopefully an extended contract.

    I still say if he doesn’t remove himself, the right thing to do is remove him. If any members are at all interested in the truth instead of following some mamby-pamby ‘prophecies’ which promise good times for CLC, they’d arrest control out of the hands of Harris instead of allowing him to tell them what he plans to do.

    He’s lost that privilege. He cannot be trusted. He’s broken trust.

    Oh but boohoo he’s one of the worst sinners he knows, right?

    Too much leaven there in CLC. Oh, but they’re such HEROES who have remained! Um, no they’re not.

  220. You’ve got to check out Voddie’s latest fb post. My blood pressure just went through the roof! I might have commented a bit lol. Seriously we need to clean our own house first and foremost before casting stones at the world! I will always stand with the victims! How could I not as I’ve been there and am still on the long journey of healing. It’s my utmost desire to do all that I can to protect the least of these! I hope no one has to go through this…it’s terrible! My very own father who was in lay leadership, studied to be a minister(has a BA in Bible and Theology) and had a radio ministry sexual abused me as an infant. Then shortly after I married he confessed to what he had done. Within days he attempted to murder my family. He got off with an insanity plea bc he knew all the things to say to manipulate. He was a godly nice man after all. Phfffff!!!! He played them like a fiddle! He won and we lost. He’s free and I lived in a jail of fear so gripping it almost destroyed me. It was Jesus who truly redeemed me and my utter devestation to giving me hope in Him. I still wrestle with theological questions but my trust in Him remains secure. Reading through Jeremiah and John was beneficial as well as reading as much as possible from the resources on GRACE Boz’s ministry. Those articles have been so healing! Ultimately I give the credit to The Holy Spirit teaching me about grace! Ironically enough the sermons that helped me the most are from Boz’s brother Tullian. I needed Gods love and grace more than air that I breathe! Being in fear constantly was true captivity. I’ve been a Christian most of my life but up until this past year I didn’t fully know what freedom in Christ was all about!

  221. Eagle wrote:

    You know what gets me? Mahaney and Harris will resign. No statement. No press release. Nothing! Others in the blogospherre are quiet. Why do the Deebs have bigger balls than Al Mohler, John Piper, etc…
    Isbn’t it time you act like men?

    Where’s the “Like” button?

  222. Bridget wrote:

    Patti wrote:

    One of Chad’s very few FB posts. So sad.
    “The deepest need that you and I have in weakness and adversity is not quick relief, but the well-grounded confidence that what is happening to us is part of the greatest purpose of God in the universe – the glorification of the grace and power of his Son – the grace and power that bore Him to the cross and kept him there until the work of love was done.” – John Piper

    Imagine what that reads like to a 10 year old child being subjected to abuse as it is flashed up on a screen during a Sunday morning sermon and all the ADULTS in the room are nodding and amening

    … and what it reads like to a battered wife as her husband sits next to her in the pew nodding and amening along with all the other MEN …

  223. @ Eagle: I know you’re being ironic, but I would like to add that anatomy had zip to do with it. The issue is emotional maturity, including the willingness to take responsibility for wrongs, admit fault and make restitution (including but not limited to *real* apologies made to those who were harmed on their watch).

  224. Nancy wrote:

    @ Sara:

    Imagine it is like for the same child to be growing up in a calvinist or semi-calvinist home and be told that he/she might not be one of the elect. The rest of us seem to be, but we don’t know about you.

    Is it any wonder that “six in 10 young people will leave the church permanently or for an extended period starting at age 15”, according to the Barna Group?

  225. Bridget wrote:

    Imagine what that reads like to a 10 year old child being subjected to abuse as it is flashed up on a screen during a Sunday morning sermon and all the ADULTS in the room are nodding and amening

    Sadly, I don’t have to imagine. It causes sense of desperate hopelessness…..

  226. Nancy wrote:

    @ Sara:
    Imagine it is like for the same child to be growing up in a calvinist or semi-calvinist home and be told that he/she might not be one of the elect. The rest of us seem to be, but we don’t know about you.

    ugh. No child should have to grow up with that fear.

  227. Jenny wrote:

    Bridget wrote:
    Patti wrote:
    One of Chad’s very few FB posts. So sad.
    “The deepest need that you and I have in weakness and adversity is not quick relief, but the well-grounded confidence that what is happening to us is part of the greatest purpose of God in the universe – the glorification of the grace and power of his Son – the grace and power that bore Him to the cross and kept him there until the work of love was done.” – John Piper
    Imagine what that reads like to a 10 year old child being subjected to abuse as it is flashed up on a screen during a Sunday morning sermon and all the ADULTS in the room are nodding and amening
    … and what it reads like to a battered wife as her husband sits next to her in the pew nodding and amening along with all the other MEN …

    Let’s see how well Piper and all of C.J. Mahaney’s other supporters/enablers (Al Mohler, Mark Dever, Lig Duncan, Justin Taylor, Kevin DeYoung, D.A. Carson) apply this as they move through this next season of their lives, one in which they will have to face the “weakness and adversity” of being publicly shamed and held to account for their indefensible defense of C.J. Mahaney and the SGM culture of sexual abuse.

    Let’s see if they manifest a “well-grounded confidence that what is happening to us is part of the greatest purpose of God in the universe – the glorification of the grace and power of his Son – the grace and power that bore Him to the cross and kept him there until the work of love was done.” Methinks they are more likely to manifest a completely ungrounded confidence that what is happening to them is “MEAN PAGAN LEFTISTS WHO HATE JESUS hating on us because WE are for the GOSPEL (trademark) and OUR ENEMIES ARE ENEMIES OF THE GOSPEL (trademark).”

  228. @ Bridget:

    I am truely sorry to all who have been affected by abuse and again by quotes like this from people. I have not been abused, but I understand as one watching someone deal with sexual abuse AND again deal with what they hear about God from pulpits. It angers me to know end what this encourges people to believe about God and how He views mankind who he made in His image.

    The reason I did say it is because I want teachers, pastors, and theologians (John Piper and many others) to hear this and see the reality of what they teach about God to people, especially children who have no means by which to process abuse and even come to believe it’s okay and God’s okay with what is happening to them when they hear quotes and sermons like this. UGH! Think ‘pastors,’ think!

  229. Bridget wrote:

    Think ‘pastors,’ think!

    I hope that you are right that thinking would make a difference. I am not so sure. I am more inclined to think that they just don’t care.

  230. For goodness sake – Jesus gave relief to many people as soon as he could. He went about healing and doing GOOD! He didn’t tell people to suffer a little longer or for a night.

    Does God need his image bearers to go through hell in life so that he can be glorified? Isn’t God above that? Jesus seemed to be. Never heard such nonsense from him.

    There is enough suffering in this world without God having to ordain it. Don’t you think pastors?

    @ Bridget:

  231. Nancy wrote:

    Bridget wrote:
    Think ‘pastors,’ think!
    I hope that you are right that thinking would make a difference. I am not so sure. I am more inclined to think that they just don’t care.

    Honestly, I think many of them need to be on their knees repenting and asking God to show them how to love every person they come in contact with AND read about Jesus in the gospels. They all need to stop their endless doctrinal pursuits. It doesn’t seem to be helping people to love God and love one another. They try to tell people about God but they don’t do unto others as they would have others do to them.

  232. @ Eagle: being “a man” is about being a grown-up human being. (Regardless of gender; the qualities you list are equally applicable to women).

    They refuse to see the obvious, and have become like the blind guides in Jesus’ parable.

  233. @ numo: meant to say that all people are meant to act *positively* re. the qualities Eagle listed, not to avoid them.

    Sometimes my brain races ahead of my typing speed…

  234. pcapastor wrote:

    Jenny wrote:
    Bridget wrote:
    Patti wrote:
    One of Chad’s very few FB posts. So sad.
    “The deepest need that you and I have in weakness and adversity is not quick relief, but the well-grounded confidence that what is happening to us is part of the greatest purpose of God in the universe – the glorification of the grace and power of his Son – the grace and power that bore Him to the cross and kept him there until the work of love was done.” – John Piper
    Imagine what that reads like to a 10 year old child being subjected to abuse as it is flashed up on a screen during a Sunday morning sermon and all the ADULTS in the room are nodding and amening
    … and what it reads like to a battered wife as her husband sits next to her in the pew nodding and amening along with all the other MEN …
    Let’s see how well Piper and all of C.J. Mahaney’s other supporters/enablers (Al Mohler, Mark Dever, Lig Duncan, Justin Taylor, Kevin DeYoung, D.A. Carson) apply this as they move through this next season of their lives, one in which they will have to face the “weakness and adversity” of being publicly shamed and held to account for their indefensible defense of C.J. Mahaney and the SGM culture of sexual abuse.
    Let’s see if they manifest a “well-grounded confidence that what is happening to us is part of the greatest purpose of God in the universe – the glorification of the grace and power of his Son – the grace and power that bore Him to the cross and kept him there until the work of love was done.” Methinks they are more likely to manifest a completely ungrounded confidence that what is happening to them is “MEAN PAGAN LEFTISTS WHO HATE JESUS hating on us because WE are for the GOSPEL (trademark) and OUR ENEMIES ARE ENEMIES OF THE GOSPEL (trademark).”

    They don’t really seem to believe in the grace and mercy of God that they yammer about. If they did, they would repent and deal with the fallout knowing that God is for them and not against them. Some wouldn’t be following lawyers instead of Christ. Others wouldn’t be enabling their brothers.

  235. @ Paula:
    Paula wrote:

    TW wrote:
    Paula wrote:
    There’s nothing to investigate. Storm the stage. Take the mic. AND THROW THE BUMS OUT!!!
    I’m with you Joan of Arc!
    I love these historical references. Of course I’ve heard of her, but I still needed to brush up. I did not know “the technical reason for her execution had been a Biblical clothing law.” (Wikipedia)
    I’m wear jeans a lot when I post
    Will the members of CLC take action? Doubtful. They’ll be taken in by the Harris’ emotionalism by which he’ll buy himself time, and hopefully an extended contract.
    I still say if he doesn’t remove himself, the right thing to do is remove him. If any members are at all interested in the truth instead of following some mamby-pamby ‘prophecies’ which promise good times for CLC, they’d arrest control out of the hands of Harris instead of allowing him to tell them what he plans to do.
    He’s lost that privilege. He cannot be trusted. He’s broken trust.
    Oh but boohoo he’s one of the worst sinners he knows, right?
    Too much leaven there in CLC. Oh, but they’re such HEROES who have remained! Um, no they’re not.

    Maybe CJ and Josh should read the article the women over at the girl talk blog wrote about emotionalism? 😉

  236. @ pcapastor:

    Methinks they are more likely to manifest a completely ungrounded confidence that what is happening to them is “MEAN PAGAN LEFTISTS WHO HATE JESUS hating on us because WE are for the GOSPEL (trademark) and OUR ENEMIES ARE ENEMIES OF THE GOSPEL (trademark).”

    Win.

    And thank you, BTW, for always giving me shreds of hope that the PCA is not a complete hyper-patriarchal, legalistic loss.

  237. GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:

    OK folks. All developers hate to hear the words “all you need to do is…”. It usually is the start of a bad day/week/month/whatever.

    I hear ya brutha. I hail from the golden age of Southern Calif. aerospace, as far back as IBM system 370 and acf-vtam (tso), and after that, a UNIX based workstation application. There is nothing easier than armchair programming by somebody who’s never done it telling you that “all you need to do is…”.

  238. Eagle wrote:

    THESE MEN ARE EPIC FAILURES!!

    Basically, yeah. I
    m so sick of the “manliness” and “gospel” branding – it’s like they think normal people are to dimwitted or uneducated to understand how rhetoric, marketing, and propaganda work. The proofs is in the fruits, my friend!

  239. Muff Potter wrote:

    There is nothing easier than armchair programming by somebody who’s never done it telling you that “all you need to do is…”.

    No arm chairing here…. I used to design web sites.

  240. Paula wrote:

    Studies prove that when women are invested with the management of the family finances, they place on a higher priority on the welfare of their children above everything else.

    First of all, I am sorry for what you went through. I hope you are in the company of encouraging people. In our marriage, I always did the finances because my wife wanted me to, and after all, I’m a business man with an MBA (said tongue in cheek, since I can’t tell you how many of my classmates are abysmal with their personal finances as they run positions in top companies *ahem*). Well, I told her plainly that we both had to budget and do the finances together, because I could die in a car accident tomorrow. I want her to be strong and self-sufficient if I bite it early. And I want our daughter and expected son to be cared for. Bottom line, once we both dug into the budget together, our finances improved tremendously. I guess it is the old proverb about two being better than one or something. One psychological aspect of sharing the budget is that my behavior changed through shame. Weird as that sounds, I didn’t want to go over the bank statement each month and have her see where I had “treated” myself to a quick burger or a new badger shaving brush. And I wanted her to see the money we were socking away for our kids. Not that I was hiding anything; I was just blissfully ignorant. I believe that marriage is supposed to be a huge blessing, and the main impetus for that blessing is doing things together and getting two perspectives on things. And yeah, I do want to impress my wife. Working together, well, works.

  241. For Joshua Harris: Look at the writing on the wall…
    And this is the writing that was inscribed: mina, mina, shekel… This is the interpretation of the matter: mina, God has numbered the days of your kingdom and brought it to an end; shekel, you have been weighed on the scales and found wanting;

  242. @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
    This is encouraging to me to read!

    I read a book that helped me realize two people living together can actually inhabit separate worlds, different realities. Some people approach relationships on the basis of mutuality and co-creation, and some do not. Some approach relationships out of the desire to dominate and be in control. In my case what I expected would develop into a marriage really never did. But it sounds like you and your wife’s marriage is made of the right stuff!! 😀

    Again, I was very happy to read this and appreciate you sharing it.

  243. Nancy wrote:

    Imagine it is like for the same child to be growing up in a calvinist or semi-calvinist home and be told that he/she might not be one of the elect.

    I’m probably more sympathetic to Calvinism than you are, but isn’t the point that even if you accept fully-fledged Calvinism we don’t know who the elect are? We can’t ever be certain in this life as to who has really believed and done business with God. One of the hardest lessons for me to learn early on in my Christian life is that we are not saved by doctrinal correctness but by faith in Christ alone, and some people who look flaky can in fact be ‘in’, and need to go on to learn doctrine and grown in grace. The gospel and bible are to me essentially clear as to basics if you make the effort to learn, but think how much time Jesus spent with teaching his disciples who still didn’t get it. I’m glad to think he will be as patient with me!

    There are those whom you can be fairly certain are not elect, who are unbelievers, whose senseless minds are still darkened. The apostle Paul warns us “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, … will inherit the kingdom of God”. Whatever the exact nuance of the Greek for what the RSV here renders ‘sexual perverts’ it certainly includes those who sexually abuse children. When such people infiltrate the church, they are not just wolves but ravenous/fierce/savage wolves. Such men may appear to have an anointed teaching ministry, but they are ‘perverters’ of the truth (Acts 20).

    Paul spells it out not to be deceived, so surely God will give the means to avoid being so deceived if we stop thinking this was confined to the first century, that is, the Holy Spirit can still reveal this kind of thing one way or another to church overseers if they ask him to.

  244. He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” Matt 28: 48-50

    @ mb4jc:
    No one can tell you that infant/child sex abuse does not have crippling effect on its victim. All abuse does! But as a child, you’re completely vulnerable and unprotected. Children need others to watch out for them. Yet, predators are so good at protecting themselves aren’t they? They will lie in order to escape punishment and it means nothing to them to violate others on order to satisfy their wickedness. In your case, your father assumed ownership over your existence as though he had the right to control whether you lived or died! Obviously he studied theology thinking he was the god around whom others should serve the will of. What a despicable man. The frustrating thing about these kinds of people that victimize others is that they usually end up acting the victim, and must seek out a scape goat to bear their guilt (Narcissistic Projection).

    Concepts of forgiveness can wreck havoc in our minds. And when it’s a parent who has abused you it can be extremely difficult. Which one of us doesn’t long for a healthy, supportive, functional relationship with our biological parents? And then there’s the scriptural command that we should honor them. It’s a difficult and emotional battlefield to be sure.

    But you must not let your guard down. You must protect yourself. I assume you’re married, right? I hope your husband stands ready to shield you as well in the event your biological dad tries to make contact with you. He doesn’t deserve to come within an inch of your life or the lives of your loved ones, nor anyone who is friends with your enemy.

    I’m so happy to hear you’re drawing your life from the Lord. Surely He is your Father, a Father to the fatherless. May the Lord bless and keep you and deliver you from evil.

  245. @ Bridget:
    I’m not sure what they’re saying about emotionalism over at girltalk (haven’t read it) but I’m certain it can’t be trusted. They’ve all become known to us by their fruit.

    I wonder how they applied these concepts when Kristin suffered from depression?

    Janelle should get a job, seriously. If she were doing her thing for fun and for her family’s enjoyment that’s one thing. But she’s marketing her work that’s she’s obviously hoping to sell. That’s called having a job. Pity she can’t make it real. She can’t be making much money at what she does, but I imagine she logs the hours she spends on her designs and then expects to be paid from the donations people give from the salaries they make at their honest jobs while she thinks she’s contributing to “the ministry” of women by doing all that, right? Because everyone is just so f’ing

    inspired

    .

  246. To add to my above comment…

    I’d wager all the Mahaney’s are double dippers, drawing salaries comprised of money other people make and then donate in order to support their lives, and then use their position to market materials to sell that they then pocket as well.

    The ministry, especially Mahaney, has never been transparent. When he handed over things to Harris in 2004, Carolyn remained ensconced as the leader of the Women’s Ministry at CLC as well as SGM at large. And no one asked too many questions as to why Shannon Harris wasn’t allowed to assume the role. But that would mean Carolyn and her fine daughters would have to submit to Shannon Harris and her leadership, a position originally intended for Nicole to fill. But that was thwarted when Josh fell in love with Shannon instead, and robbed Nicole of her wish of becoming First Lady in the church after her Mom.

    So, Carolyn assumed control and Shannon remained in the shadows, not allowed the role Carolyn assumed by virtue of her marriage and which was automatically bestowed upon all other SGM Leader’s Wives right? Id say on this point Josh allowed himself to be kowtowed.

    Also, let’s not forget, CJ may have not been involved in an official leadership capacity at CLC after 2004 and in 2007, the year in focus when Layman made contact with Morales in Las Vegas, but CAROLYN MAHANEY WAS. She was the official women’s leader at CLC. Plus, she’s Grants sister. And don’t pretend as a woman Carolyn wasn’t completely involved. She’s always known everything that was happening. She only hides behind this notion she lives in a completely separate “sphere” and only pays attention to what’s happening in her home. That’s a lie.

    Anyway, I’m sure she continued to draw a salary as the Women’s Ministry Leader at CLC, and also for her speaking engagements within SGM and elsewhere. And the Mahaney girls were put on the payroll for their contributions to the blog. And then Chad for the Mahaney Sports Blog (what team is he on again?)

    So congratulations to the continuing members of SGM, for your donations help to maintain the Mahaney Welfare State, and have supported their sense of entitlement to live large off your earnings without them being accountable to you for anything!

  247. Paula wrote:

    And no one asked too many questions as to why Shannon Harris wasn’t allowed to assume the role. But that would mean Carolyn and her fine daughters would have to submit to Shannon Harris and her leadership, a position originally intended for Nicole to fill. But that was thwarted when Josh fell in love with Shannon instead, and robbed Nicole of her wish of becoming First Lady in the church after her Mom.

    “…a crown based on lies,
    YOU WIN OR YOU DIE —
    Game of Thrones…”

  248. molly245 wrote:

    Re: Your breaking news on 5-18—in which we find that Josh Harris and CJ have been ‘removed’ from TGC board—

    The Party has begun the next Purge, Comrades.

  249. An Attorney wrote:

    The SBC house organ, Baptist Press, has no, zero, coverage of the Morales trial or the fallout at SGM or TGC.
    There is also zero coverage about the court cases involving Caner, which he lost by summary judgment (meaning no jury could ever agree with his claim!) with language by the federal judges that suggest that Caner had lied.

    doubleplusungood ref doubleplusunperson.
    doubleplusungood ref doubleplusunevent.

  250. Eagle wrote:

    So now that CJ Mahaney is no longer with TGC…does this mean the article on “Gospel Centered Chicken McNuggets” is off? I was looking forward to reading about how to eat McNuggets and how they fit into the Lord’s sovereignty. Was the chicken foreordained to become a McNuggest?!? Theological minds need tii know!!!!

    You know what I think? I think CJ Mahaney was foreordained to become a McNugget: bad-tempered, pumped up with silicone, held too long warm,& served with rancid BBQ sauce.