Janet Mefferd and Mark Driscoll: Of Boycotts, Gender, and Abuse

Some so speak in exaggerations and superlatives that we need to make a large discount from their statements before we can come at their real meaning.  Tryon Edwards link

450px-Kaisei_in_Harubasho_2013_IMG_1899-2_20130324

Sumo wrestler
 

This weekend, my husband and I were blessed to be a part of a contingent of folks who came to Eagle's baptism. As Eagle took the plunge, there were quite a few people shouting his name and clapping. His grin, upon surfacing, was wider than the front door of the church! We met Mr and Mrs Happy Mom, Joy Huff and her awesome husband as well as some of Eagle's friends. It was as if we had known each other forever.

The next person who says there is no community in blogging will get slapped upside the head by Dee. Tears were shed at church and loud laughs were heard throughout a certain Chili's in Fairfax. Then there was a photo of a certain blogger outside of an SGM church…  I am in awe of the strength, honesty and love all of these folks. This weekend was Dee's best weekend of 2013, hands down! Praise God!


In fact, Dee is back and fired up and really irritated by the same old covered wagons circling around Driscoll. In my opinion,Driscoll gave up any credibility that he had over the last few years. His treatment of Paul Petry and Bent Myer, the quiet yet significant departure of Wendy Alsup, his pornovisions link, his staff turnover and his outright derogatory interview with Justin Brierly in which he managed to insult the interviewer along with the entire British church while fussing about "authority" is enough to negate any need to give him the benefit of the doubt. The critique is his fault.

The red herring of who hung up on who: Keep the main thing, the main thing.

This is a typical abusive tactic. Make someone else the problem. Let me remind you, Mefferd was confronting Driscoll about 14 pages of alleged plagiarism. That is huge! Mefferd believed that Driscoll hung up on her. Driscoll denies it. Both sides have released the audios on this hoopla. I posted the Driscoll side on Friday.

Here is Mefferd's side. 

From Bobby, the producer in Dallas.
Here is the link to the raw recorded Salem Radio Network audio file of Janet Mefferd's Nov. 21, 2013, interview with Pastor Mark Driscoll, author of "A Call to Resurgence."

It was recorded at 12p ET on Nov 21 as a mono .mp3 file for playback on air at 3p ET. It was not recorded as a multitrack session, so there would have been no way to JUST pull out Driscoll’s voice. Janet was clearly conducting the interview, and upon completion of her thoughts, Mark Driscoll failed to respond for two seconds so Janet closed the segment. No audio came through the board after Janet’s words “in your book.”

It is interesting that even on Driscoll’s own audio recording, he was silent for 9 seconds. The second voice on the Driscoll audio was Justin Dean, Driscoll’s assistant, who patched through the original call.

Did Justin hit the mute button on his end, preventing Janet from hearing Mark for the final seconds of the segment? I do not know. I can only state what occurred on our end.

I specifically left the volume up on the phone line until Janet said, "And we'll be coming back." The phone call then disconnected from Driscoll's end before the segment was completed.

FOR THE RECORD, Janet DID NOT hang up on Pastor Driscoll, nor did WE cut the interview short. We also edited nothing for the final playback.

Janet is a Christian and a journalist. She would never doctor an interview or betray her Christian testimony or journalistic ethics.

Here is the audio link from their end  ftp://ftp.srnprograms.com/Driscoll/

Bobby Belt: Producer:The Janet Mefferd Show

Folks, this is not the issue but the Driscoll people want to make it the issue to avoid the messy problem of the 14 pages. The real problem is the alleged plagiarism. It is a legal issue and it calls into question Driscoll's character. Who went silent on who is not the question. However, I will add my own two cents since the Driscoll boys started this. I believe Janet Mefferd due to the years of controversy and problems that surround the ministry of Mark Driscoll.

Justin Taylor of Between Two Worlds (correction) and a Gospel Coalition blogger calls for a boycott of Mefferd's show. Why?

It is against all rules to expose the shortcomings of certain Calvinista boys as we have sadly learned from the SGM saga. 

Screen Shot 2013-11-25 at 2.43.35 PM

Note the non-specificity of this tweet. I am suspicious. Is he sending a warning to plagiarizing pastors and church leaders to stay away from Mefferd because she will call them on it?  What does Taylor know that we don't know? Taylor has not said anything else which means he is sticking with his warning. So, what's he afraid of?

Driscoll gives the impression that he did Mefferd a favor by coming on her show.

His people called her people and asked if Mefferd would interview Driscoll. So, in fact, Mefferd is the one who did Driscoll a favor. He claims to be a graduate of one of the top communication programs in the country. I guess "top" programs neglect to teach their people that most interviewers will ask hard questions.

Driscoll should know that any interviewer has the right to ask him any questions they darn well please.

Driscoll is used to being in charge. He gets to fire good and decent people with impunity. He insults whoever he darn well pleases. And then, when the tables are turned and the people are not impressed with his obvious authority, he melts like a little girl and blames them. "Mommy, they were mean to me."  Driscoll lives a life in public. He should be prepared at any moment to answer for his life and actions. He does not get to control what is asked of him outside of the fortress that is Mars Hill.

Better yet, as the self avowed expositor of Scripture, he should know that we are to be a light on the hill. Driscoll jumps up and down, trying to get people to come to his church, listen to him and give him the church money. A church leader should be living his life in such a manner that he is not threatened by any question that anyone asks. A man who lives his life openly should be able to answer any questions about his life without difficulty.  If he can't, then he needs to ask why he can't.

This dustup appears to be about "authority", gender, and pushing his book so that it starts making bank.

Let's take a look back at what he said about his disastrous interview with Justin Brierly link.

“With the release of our book, Real Marriage, we have now done literally dozens of interviews with Christians and non-Christians. The interview in question had nearly nothing to do with the book or its subject matter, which in my understanding was supposed to be the point of the interview.”

“But the one that culminated in the forthcoming article was, in my opinion, the most disrespectful, adversarial, and subjective The only questions asked were about any controversial thing I’ve ever said in the past 15 years with a host of questions that were adversarial and antagonistic.“It felt like a personally offended critic had finally gotten his chance to exercise some authority over me."

I believe that this sentence offers us a look into the psyche of Mark Driscoll. It appears that all of his interviews boil down to who is, and who is not, "in authority." He is the one in authority and will get miffed off if he thinks you are trumping his manliness. Think about the last time you had an encounter with someone who challenged you. Unless it was the police stopping you for speeding, were you assessing who had the most authority? As I look over his ministry, I believe that Driscoll must be in charge or "in authority" in any and all situations.

Given his views on women, can you imagine how this interview felt to him? Not only was Mefferd the obvious leader in this interview, she is a woman. Driscoll may have perceived that he lost authority to a woman! That is the worst of all conceivable worlds for him. Note what he said to her during the interview. This is eerily similar to his response to the Brierly interview.

“Well, you’re giving me orders in front of an audience…  (16:43) 

A tutorial on the latest in spiritually abusive terminology as demonstrated by Mark "throw em under the bus" Driscoll.

(Driscoll to Mefferd) This is an opportunity for you to grow 

TWW is dedicated to bringing our dear readers the latest in "you are about to get sandbagged" terminology. Your humble blog queen had a bit of a dustup in the last year. It seems someone was none too pleased about this blog and said individual was determined to "take charge." So, in a conversation which rapidly deteriorated, he started off by saying that I, Dee, had "grown a lot" in the past months and that I was being presented an opportunity with which to "grow" even more.  That growth involved getting out of the blogging business. The conversation went rapidly downhill from there and, as you can see, Dee turned down all further growth opportunities.

An opportunity to grow means you are wrong and said individual is about to go for your jugular. When you hear the term "opportunity for growth" there is only one response. Get the heck out of there. The situation is about to go downhill and you will be to blame.

Corollary: If the individual who is presenting you with that stellar "opportunity to grow" adds the following which is heard in the interview

(Mark to Janet) I will try to receive what you say graciously and humbly

you are about to get exponentially shafted. CJ Mahaney is the author of the "true humility" and he was appointed to mentor Mark Driscoll. You all know how that turned out.

Tyndale House, Driscoll and the Resurgence are now closely tied.

In fact, Driscoll is drumming up business for them link.

PERFECT MATCH

We’ve reached an agreement with Tyndale House Publishers to publish numerous titles under a new imprint called Resurgence Publishing (the last two books with the Re:Lit name will be released this spring). Tyndale will publish all of my (Pastor Mark’s) work moving forward, in addition to other Resurgence authors whom we’ll announce in the coming months. We’ll kick things off this fall with the launch of my next book. (ed note: The book in question in this interview!)

Tyndale and Resurgence are about as close as you can get to a perfect match. For our part, we produce a ton of content—books, study guides, curriculums—and Tyndale offers a unique combination of theological integrity, practical knowledge, and industry experience that is rare in the world of Christian publishing.

“We are honored to be the publishing partner for Resurgence Publishing,” says Ron Beers, senior vice president for the Tyndale House Publishing Group. “Resurgence and Mars Hill are known for engaging culture with biblical truth—no easy task these days. They do this with excellence and in highly creative ways, without compromising the biblical message. This is also Tyndale’s sweet spot, and together I hope and pray that we will be used by the Holy Spirit to help spark a resurgence of genuine faith in our country and in other countries around the world.”

We’re very excited to see what God does with this new partnership. We pray that our work together results in many useful tools that help Christians everywhere grow in relationship with Jesus, live for him, and lead others to him.

Well, in my opinion, this is not a stellar way to start a joint "ministry" of "integrity."

  • First and foremost, this is not about ministry. It is about the Christian book industry and they intend to make bank.
  • Secondly, who in the world is doing the vetting of these books? Don't editors check for copyright issues? Who is going to keep up with the promised "tons" of books?
  • Thirdly, is  it "humble"  to say that this money making enterprise is going to be the key to "spark a resurgence?" I guess all those other Christian out there slogging around in the ditches: homeless shelters, at risk youth, missionaries, etc. are not going to spark a resurgence in the world. We need Mark's books to do that. What in the world did the Christian church do until this alliance? Good night!

Things are really bad when Carl Trueman speaks out against Driscoll's appearance on Mefferd's show.

Yes, that Carl Trueman! The guy who was on the three man panel that exonerated CJ Mahaney. He exonerated Mahaney but he is none too pleased with Driscoll. Can you imagine? Things with Driscoll must be really, really bad. Trueman first spoke well of Janet Mefferd (who has been an advocate for those speaking out against SGM and child sex abuse). Then he said link

the fall-out from The Janet Mefferd Show has been interesting even as it has been entirely predictable.  The fan base and those with a vested interest in Driscoll's reputation rally around their hero while excoriating Janet Mefferd.   In so doing, they ironically demonstrate why shows such as Janet Mefferd's can be so very important: if the conservative evangelical world continues to be increasingly dominated by one or two huge media-style organizations, the conversation will be corralled and controlled, the hard questions will not be asked, and the leaders of such organizations and those over whom they choose to extend their patronage will not be held to account.

If, in your quest to promote yourself, you ask to appear on a particular show, you should be tough enough to take whatever that show throws at you with equanimity

Wade Burleson compared the books side by side and his conclusion is devastating link.

My wife wisely challenged me not to draw a judgment without doing research on my own. Of course, she was right. So I bought Dr. Jones' book One or Two and Mark Driscoll's book A Call to Resurgence. I already had Jones' The God of Sex.  I read the Jones' books and Driscoll's book and was stunned. The similarities in the wording and the concepts of "one-ism" and "two-ism" were bizarre. The wording, the thought patterns, and the concepts in Jones' book and Driscoll's book were so similar, one would think the same author wrote them. In the fourteen pages Janet points out in the interview, Mark Driscoll barely acknowledges Jones, and nowhere credits him for his original ideas. For example, Driscoll uses the phrase "sex is the pagan sacrament of one-ism" - something you will not read in your everyday preacher's journal – and Mark Driscoll never gives credit to Dr. Jones for the phrase which Dr. Jones uses in The God of Sex, based on his own original research and writing on paganism. Driscoll's use of that phrase without proper credit would be deemed plagiarism among all reputable scholars and publishers. Period.

So what is the bottom line?  It is quite simple. Driscoll is like a Monster Truck with a broken steering wheel. He careens around, bulldozing everyone in his wake. This time he is intent on throwing Mefferd under the bus. But this time, unlike the days in which he did the same thing to Paul Petry and Brent Myer, there are a lot more people like us, sitting in our mother's basements, keeping him honest.  Also, I think Tyndale House better hire a lot more editors. Remember, Driscoll once said he wrote a sermon in two hours while watching a Seattle Seahawks game link. Imagine how quickly he could churn out a book! However, I am beginning to be suspicious about his methodology.

Lydia's Corner: Isaiah 3:1-5:30 2 Corinthians 11:1-15 Psalm 53:1-6 Proverbs 22:28-29

Comments

Janet Mefferd and Mark Driscoll: Of Boycotts, Gender, and Abuse — 244 Comments

  1. The red herring of who hung up on who: Keep the main thing, the main thing.

    This is a typical abusive tactic. Make someone else the problem.

    It’s a favorite of debating champs. Focus in on some minor point of semantics or incorrect spelling that allows you to discredit the entire argument or posting or book. Redefine the conflict into some semantic side-issue where YOU have the advantage. Like (actual experience) using a one-letter misspelling to debunk the other guy and thus PROVE that Soviet Communism is Intellectually and Morally Superior to the American Imperialists.

    Thirdly, is it “humble” to say that this money making enterprise is going to be the key to “spark a resurgence?”

    Remember who defines Humble(TM) for this set. The Humble One himself, Cee Jay Mahaney (chuckle chuckle).

    Remember, Driscoll once said he wrote a sermon in two hours while watching a Seattle Seahawks game link. Imagine how quickly he could churn out a book!

    Faster than Jerry “Buck” Jenkins could churn out a volume of Left Behind?

  2. I am not clear on what one-ism is. I guess it’s not important to the current discussion but could someone refer me to somewhere they explain it very simply.

  3. Dee:

    “The wording, the thought patterns, and the concepts in Jones’ book and Driscoll’s book were so similar, one would think the same author wrote them.”

    Surprise, surprise.
    The same author did write them, and another copied them.
    Wonder who?

  4. “Driscoll is like a Monster Truck with a broken drive shaft.”
    I believe you meant “broken rear drive shaft”. If the front shaft breaks, it digs into the soil, completely stymying any forward movement. Then again, the Driscoll machine might very well be in reverse…

  5. 14 pages plagerized is huge, really huge. College professors have lost jobs, tenure over this….had a former student suspended from The University of Texas for plagerizing one sentence in a paper she wrote as a freshman at that institution. She had to beg her way back in after being out for 18 months.
    Maybe in the world you come from this is not a big deal, but it goes to show a person’s background and standards. Cheat on this, and what else are you hiding?

  6. Dee…. Can we call you The Iron Lady of the blogosphere? ;-) I think even Baroness Thatcher would be impressed. Not just that but I would have loved to see Mark Driscoll give orders to Margaret Thatcher.

  7. I have to giggle, because I can’t imagine Mark making a big deal out of this interview. lol people may listen to it, and she what she says! They aren’t suppose to know about his alleged plagiarism, and gosh darn it may ask about that part as WELL!

  8. Mefferd discussed this situation more today in her radio show and referenced a page at web site “Reformation 21.”

    (I was going to link to that -“If the Top Men take over, who will ask the hard questions?” from Ref. 21-, but I now see you guys already linked to that in the original post).

    The part where Mefferd begins updating us on the fall-out she has endured over the Driscoll bru-ha-ha starts around the 19 or 20 minute mark in the following (after she interviews some guy about his book “Unintimidated”):

    Hour 2 (Mefferd discusses the Driscoll fall out *after* her interview with Gov Scott Walker)

    Mefferd says she has an even bigger update about the Driscoll controversy on tomorrow’s show.

    I am still on Mefferd’s side. She was not rude or nasty with Driscoll, she was only determined to get at the truth, and Driscoll was trying to dodge, evade, and dance around it, which Bill O’Reilly does not permit on his show, either.

    Regardless of how one feels about O’Reilly, he does not let guests get away with what he calls “spin” and “bloviating” like interviewers on other networks do, and I appreciate it. That was what Mefferd was doing, and I don’t see that as being wrong or mean.

    Wow, Mefferd repeated again to a caller who phoned her to comment on the Driscoll interview that tomorrow’s show will be a big one – it has something to do with Driscoll.

    I agree with the original post here above on Wartburg about this.

  9. Deb wrote:

    http://theresurgence.com/2010/05/04/the-lie-of-idolatry-and-the-truth-of-worship

    “To learn more about one-ism and two-ism and see how it plays out in all kinds of ways in our church and culture, come to the Exchange conference. Mark Driscoll, Peter Jones, Francis Chan, Kevin DeYoung, and others will teach you how to distinguish the Truth from the Lie in all of life. Exchange is June 17 & 18 in San Diego, California.”

    Well, apparently, Driscoll and Jones are conference buds. You think?

  10. Deb wrote:

    Wow, Mefferd repeated again to a caller who phoned her to comment on the Driscoll interview that tomorrow’s show will be a big one – it has something to do with Driscoll.

    You’re very welcome.

    I said in my last post:
    “Wow, Mefferd repeated again to a caller who phoned her to comment on the Driscoll interview that tomorrow’s show will be a big one – it has something to do with Driscoll.”

    At least, I assume it will have something to do with Driscoll.

    Mefferd would not specify, but she mentioned it 2 – 3 times in discussing the Driscoll controversy.

    I mean, maybe she will be revealing her favorite recipe for lasagna on her show tomorrow or something, but that she kept bringing this up in reference to callers who phoned her about Driscoll, I assume it’s going to be about Driscoll.

    (I’m also guessing that she must have definite / stronger evidence that Driscoll did indeed lift entire pages or ideas from Jones’ book without his permission. That’s my gut feeling of what she will be talking about.).

  11. Authority -something only a celebrity pastor has

    Submit – something everyone else must do regarding the celebrity pastor

    Sin – something you do when you don’t agree with your celebrity pastor

    Opportunity to grow – goes hand-in-hand with sin; when you disagree with your celebrity pastor, growth will occur when you agree with the celebrity minister

    Church discipline – the humiliation and shunning of those who refuse to agree with everything the celebrity pastor says

    Love – something the celebrity minister is incapable of

  12. @ Nicholas:

    Nicholas, I pointed this out to you in another thread a moment ago, but I’m pretty sure Mefferd interviewed some guy from BJU within the last month.

    She seems to think that they are a really swell institution. I tried to find you the link to that interview but could not find it.

    I like Mefferd as a person, and while I think she has her heart in the right place, she is none the less ignorant of how unbiblical and dangerous certain beliefs, assumptions, and teachings in conservative Christianity are (or things that appear to be conservative Christian), such as the Duggar Quivering family (she praised them for having a 2,343 kids), etc. I posted about that here.

    I also am afraid Mefferd does not see the problem with the hyper-family- and- marriage- focused preoccupation of conservative Christians. She seems to view that hyper focus as a positive, good thing, because it’s opposed to liberalism and worldliness.

    I’m also bothered that Mefferd (like many, many social conservative Christians) does not understand that rejecting ‘biblical gender complementarianism’ does not mean one’s only choice is to then become an abortion- supporting, homosexual- marriage- supporting, man- hating feminist.

  13. I would love to see an investigation of this by his publisher. Maybe I am spitting in the wind, but really why is anyone giving this man any of their time? He is a woman hating windbag, he truly believes his own hype, and I am waiting for the day they hand out the kool aid at Mars Hill.

  14. JeffT wrote:

    Authority -something only a celebrity pastor has
    Submit – something everyone else must do regarding the celebrity pastor
    Sin – something you do when you don’t agree with your celebrity pastor
    Opportunity to grow – goes hand-in-hand with sin; when you disagree with your celebrity pastor, growth will occur when you agree with the celebrity minister
    Church discipline – the humiliation and shunning of those who refuse to agree with everything the celebrity pastor says
    Love – something the celebrity minister is incapable of

    Great stuff Jeff!

    On another note, while doing some research it became obvious why Driscoll attempted to sabotage MacArthur’s Strange Fire conference. I believe he was still harboring resentment of Mac because he called him out way back in April of 2009 with a series of 4 sermons on the “Rape of Solomon’s Song.”

    This material can be found here:

    http://www.gty.org/search/rape%20of%20solomon's%20song?title=1

    There were then some interesting blog articles written in response, including this one:

    http://5ptsalt.com/2009/04/17/john-macarthur-ask-piper-and-mahaney-why-they-havent-addressed-mark-driscoll/

    BTW – I am a fan of both Janet Mefferd and Carl Trueman. I was deeply disappointed to see Trueman on the 3 man council which gave a quick “OK” to the King of Humility, but it seems to me, judging from things he has written since then, that he probably regrets that episode. I would like to hear him interviewed by Mefferd and asked about that whole affair.

  15. @ Daisy:

    Thanks for your comments. Janet Mefferd needs to stop receiving support from BJU and to stop promoting them through advertisement on her website and having their people as guests on her show. If she doesn’t, she will no longer be taken seriously as a serious advocate for the abused and for reform in the church in this area. Even worse, people may be deceived into thinking that BJU is a “safe” school to send their kids to due to Mefferd’s website’s promotion of it. BJU even has its own elementary, middle, and high school, with many more IFB fundamentalist schools connected to it in some way. It publishes its own homeschooling curriculum as well. Janet Mefferd cannot remain silent or neutral about Bob Jones University.

    The guy she interview last month, along with the lady she interviewed last Thursday (after David Horowitz) make two BJU people: http://www.janetmefferdpremium.com/2013/11/21/janet-mefferd-radio-show-20131121-hr-3/

    It is also in the above segment that she states that her show is “underwritten by Bob Jones University.”

    If anyone wants to read more on BJU, just search its name here at TWW.

  16. Anon wrote:

    Well, apparently, Driscoll and Jones are conference buds. You think?

    I had lunch with Peter Jones once, and we had a long talk about Mark Driscoll. Jones is a big fan of Driscoll and a friend.

  17. *Sigh* Someone forgot to respect someone’s authoritah….

    (the quoted article has just one term used as an example. has anyone written up an in depth comparison of both works?)

    AWESOME NEWS re: EAGLE!!!!

  18. Why did you have to go and screw up tomorrow's big news? It WAS going to be her award-winning lasagna recipe but now she and Bobby will have to come up with something new during Hr 2 (3p ET).

  19. Anyone who has listened to Justin Brierley’s interview of Driscoll can see that Driscoll’s comments on the interview have no connection to reality.

    And Driscoll’s “doing you a favor” comments show that he is a self-exalting man with no humility.

    Btw, did you catch how the first caller after the recent Driscoll interview referred to “the enemy” as “people who hate Mark Driscoll” (i.e. anyone critical of Driscoll).

  20. @ Charley Mefferd:
    In other news, and loosely on the subject – although my mince recipes have never won an award (nor been entered for one), my bolognese last night was superb. It was the red wine sauce that did it, I think.

  21. @ Peter:

    Not that I know of. I’d be surprised if he’s into cooking, frankly.

    I came up with the recipe independently, but given the limited number of ways you can prepare minced beef with tomato sauce, and the large number of people around the world who do so, I’d be surprised if there’s nobody else out there who makes it like I do! That, however, is not plagiarism, regardless of what’s going on with Fiscal’s latest book. ;-)

  22. On a more serious note, power doesn’t just corrupt; it also blinds. It’s obvious really that anyone surrounded by yes-men and sycophants will come to believe the yesmanship and to think that any critics are deluded or motivated by spite, envy or satan. So it is inevitable (for better or worse) that those who continue like this will eventually over-play their hand and the house of cards will collapse.

    I well remember Margaret Thatcher’s first public use of the Majestic Plural (“We are a grandmother!”). Some months after, she famously announced to the watching media: “We shall go on, and on, and on!”. Barely days later, she was forced from office as the parliamentary Conservative Party realised its majority rested on too many marginal seats. I think that, at the end, Thatcher truly was delusional: she really believed she was untouchable by anybody. She wasn’t the first, nor will she be the last.

  23. @ Nick:

    I’d be surprised if he’s into cooking, frankly.

    Maybe grilling and chili cookoffs. Those are sufficiently masculine, because in one you’re cooking big chunks of red meat, and in the other you get to see whose chili is the spiciest (i.e., manliest).

  24. Charley Mefferd wrote:

    It WAS going to be her award-winning lasagna recipe but now she and Bobby will have to come up with something new during H

    That’s it. My support of Janet is done. I, and I alone have the best lasagna recipe. I challenge her to a bake-off!

  25. @ Nicholas:
    There is a problem with advertising in general. That is one reason (amongst 50) that we have chosen not to accept advertising on TWW. Once you open up to advertising, you are stuck with underwear ads,(have you seen the K Mart Joe Boxer ads yet?) etc. You cannot pick and choose (except for the obvious adult type garbage).

    Her show is on certain religious stations which accept a broad range of advertising. Once you are a business, there are rules and laws that apply. Basically, she is stuck.

  26. Nicholas wrote:

    Btw, did you catch how the first caller after the recent Driscoll interview referred to “the enemy” as “people who hate Mark Driscoll”

    You should see our emails! These days people confuse their churches an pastors with Jesus.

  27. Deb wrote:

    Dee,

    I see that Dr. Peter Jones and his wife Rebecca are still listed as Council Members for CBMW.

    Dee and Deb,

    Were you to read Dr. Peter Jones material (as I have), you would love much and find yourself really disturbed by some. Dr. Jones is old-school when it comes to women (notice, I didn’t say ‘biblical’ – I said ‘old-school’) trained in classical Presbyterianism to honor authority structures in the church, which includes classical ordination, the removal of all women from leadership positions, and the subjection of women to the authority of men. He and his wife are on the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood because their theology fits CBMW. I hope to write a post in the near future expressing appreciation to Dr. Jones for his outstanding work in the field of paganism, but pointing out what I believe to be his unbiblical view of women. His system of authority is very Old Covenant (Jewish) with Christian terms to cover the Jewish ones (synagogue/church, priests/pastors, sacrifice/tithing, circumcision/infant baptism, etc…).

    Having said all the above, I think your defense of Janet Mefferd and doing what you can to ensure Dr. Jones intellectual material is not appropriated as Mark Driscoll’s, is another evidence of doing what we do on the basis of principle, not personalities. The proof of the absence of tribalism is that one will defend the dishonored, support the slandered, and attend to the abused FROM THE OTHER CAMP.

    Most people do not know that I hold to Isaac Newton’s chronology of the Old Testament, including a young earth, and believe in divine election – two views that Dee does not hold. However, Dee and I fellowship because of our love for Christ and people – and we both give room to other views because we do not believe we have a corner on the truth. Whatever one says about Driscoll’s book (and I’ve said a great deal), it must be said he does make a great point about God’s people working together for the good of the Kingdom of God and not breaking up into tribal groups and fighting each other.

    Thanks for demonstrating this to your readers.

  28. Another super article, Dee. And congratulations to Eagle! So glad to hear of all the friends there to celebrate his baptism.

    P.S. Happily surprised to see the picture of Kaisei (the Brazilian sumo wrestler). Any connection to the story, or just there for fun? :)

  29. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    although my mince recipes have never won an award

    The first time my mother shopped for ground beef at the local butcher shop when we lived in England, she got a blank look in response. She pointed to what she wanted in the meat case. “Oh! You mean mince meat!”
    Thereafter, when my mother sent me round to the butchers for some mince meat, they laughed heartily and asked, “You mean you want some ground beef?”
    I think there were only a couple of American families living in Ashtead at the time. The shopkeepers had fun teasing us.

  30. dee wrote:

    You should see our emails! These days people confuse their churches an pastors with Jesus.

    Stoning you for Blasphemy against their God?

  31. Great post. I haven’t listened to the audio of the interview, but the typed excerpts that you include in this post are really unbelievable.

    This guy must have arranged things for himself such that no one ever challenges him about anything.

    And when he gets challenged, he falls apart.

    This is not too dissimilar from the first Obama/Romney debate. Most politicians spend their lives trying not to get in difficult public situations. That’s why they have handlers. That first debate really showed how lacking Obama was in substance. He had never had anyone talk to him the way Romney did.

    But Obama, except for the stuttering, kept it cool. That’s because he is a pro.

    Driscoll did not keep his cool. I just cannot get over the quotes.

  32. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    On a more serious note, power doesn’t just corrupt; it also blinds. It’s obvious really that anyone surrounded by yes-men and sycophants will come to believe the yesmanship and to think that any critics are deluded or motivated by spite, envy or satan. So it is inevitable (for better or worse) that those who continue like this will eventually over-play their hand and the house of cards will collapse.

    This was one of the factors in the overthrow of Saddam Hussein. Baba Saddam was one of those pointy-haired bosses who could only tolerate total yes-men around him. If you said anything that Saddam didn’t want to hear, you and your family would become Uday’s latest playthings. So when Saddam had to walk a thin political line regarding Dubya Bush and accusations of WMDs, guess what all his advisors said? (After-the-fact, there was some pretty solid speculation that Saddam might have believed that he DID have WMDs enough to take on America; all his WMD experts (afraid of Uday’s playpen in Abu Ghraib) were telling him so. So he went with it…)

  33. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    In other news, and loosely on the subject – although my mince recipes have never won an award (nor been entered for one), my bolognese last night was superb. It was the red wine sauce that did it, I think.

    I whip up big batches myself, and decant and freeze them. My Bolognese recipe starts with low-fat ground beef (mince meat to you Europeans and Commonwealthers), garlic, mixed herb seasoning, and olive oil, all sautéed in the bottom of the pot. (Meat browned and drained first.) Then tomato puree (low-salt), unsalted diced tomatoes (for texture), a drained can of sliced black olives (provides the salt), and a glass of Burgundy. Simmer for half an hour.

  34. @ BeenThereDoneThat:

    Yeah, I ran into this and thought they were talking of what some in the South call “mince meat” we buy in jars at Christmas and serve with brandy sauce. Talk about confused.

  35. Wade Burleson wrote:

    I think your defense of Janet Mefferd and doing what you can to ensure Dr. Jones intellectual material is not appropriated as Mark Driscoll’s, is another evidence of doing what we do on the basis of principle, not personalities.

    Except, in some twisted way, Dr. Jones may actually be okay with his conference buddy appropriating his stuff. If it were not for the media attention and notoriety he has received because of his association with Driscoll, his writings would only be known amongst pointy-headed academics and theologians. By hanging with Driscoll, like Piper before him, the otherwise staid academic/theologian now has an imputed hipness thay he may appreciate – sort of like the nerdy kid at school who becomes friends with the cool bully after he shares his study hall notes.

    So, despite Mefferd calling a small part of the Christian world’s attention to the issue, we may never hear a peep from Dr. Jones because he may actually enjoy hearing Driscoll refer to him as “my good friend” – and that may be more important than whether or not Driscoll appropriated material from the doctor’s books. And, Driscoll probably knows this and is in fact banking on it.

    Do not be surprised if all of the righteous indignation brought about by Mefferd’s allegations backfires, and Driscoll comes out smelling like a rose among the GC, T4G, Desiring God, A29, neo-reformed crowd, and Dr. Jones sells many more books than he would have were it not for his association with the superstar.

  36. @ dee:

    “I, and I alone have the best lasagna recipe”
    +++++++++++++++++

    no, actually, that would be me.

    melty mozzarella, parmesan, homemade sauce simmered down rich with Italian sausage and red wine.

  37. @Dee – sounds like Eagle’s baptism was an awesome event. Next time you guys have a TWW reunion in the D.C. area I’ll have to join. All of you have been a blessing in my life as I’ve tried to make sense of all my church experiences and come to a new understanding of the Lord and my faith.

  38. Anon 1 wrote:

    Yeah, I ran into this and thought they were talking of what some in the South call “mince meat” we buy in jars at Christmas and serve with brandy sauce. Talk about confused.

    :-) To add to the confusion (I just looked this up to verify it), Mince Pie is still a popular, seasonal treat in Britain. It’s made from what we on this side of the pond know as mincemeat.

  39. @ Anonymous:
    Agreed. There is nothing about what he said that can salvage the clear impression he gave that exposed him as a disingenuous individual. His obfuscations were disrespectful and then out of the other side of his mouth he accuses Janet Mefferd of the very thing he’s being: rude. He was rude. RUDE! He was course and uncivil and the only thing he displayed any skill at was ad hominen. I guess a guy like him has to develop a talent for turning the tables on anyone who dares question his highness, so as to lower them to a level where he feels in control. Personally? He angered me. I felt a sense of wrath. I think the guy is keeping himself together with the stuff biblical men like do to use to fix things: duct tape.

  40. @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    Indeed – there’s an important distinction between mincemeat (which is a spiced fruit preserve) and minced meat (which is meat that has been minced). “Minced” being a synonym for “ground” in the past-participle context. I’m a little rusty on butchers south of the border, but up here at least you’d actually order steak mince (or minced steak).

  41. @ elastigirl:

    Odd… I don’t see any raspberry jam in that list. (Other forest fruit will do, but sugar won’t – you need the rich sweetness.) Otherwise, it looks promising…

    That said, I wouldn’t go to war over the nationality of the wine. Whatever’s a) on offer in the Co-Op and b) has a screw-top generally does me. The proviso being that if I wouldn’t sample a glass first, I wouldn’t put it in a mince/ground dish.

    Er – sorry, what was the question btw? Oh, yes – plagiarism. Never mind; I can plagiarise some of these food ideas.

  42. Ha ha – I’ve just managed to land a cooking comment in moderation!

    I believe it was my reference to the method of sealing the wine-bottle… that’ll teach me.

  43. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    Indeed – there’s an important distinction between mincemeat (which is a spiced fruit preserve) and minced meat (which is meat that has been minced). “Minced” being a synonym for “ground” in the past-participle context. I’m a little rusty on butchers south of the border, but up here at least you’d actually order steak mince (or minced steak).

    And down here in the rolling green shires you’d just call it mince. And it would be beef. Or you’d have to ask for pork mince etc. The rest of you are making it so complicated.

  44. Nicholas wrote:

    I admire Janet Mefferd for the work she is doing. At the same time, I hope that she will cut ties with Bob Jones University: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/11/22/mark-driscoll-hangs-up-on-janet-meffords-questions-about-plagiarism-and-strange-fire/#comment-120896

    You know, it would be nice if we could stay on topic here. This thread is about MD and Mefferd. Sorry to be harsh, but nobody else here cares about whatever beef you have with BJU.

  45. Wade Burleson wrote:

    Deb wrote:
    Dee,
    I see that Dr. Peter Jones and his wife Rebecca are still listed as Council Members for CBMW.
    Dee and Deb,
    Were you to read Dr. Peter Jones material (as I have), you would love much and find yourself really disturbed by some. Dr. Jones is old-school when it comes to women (notice, I didn’t say ‘biblical’ – I said ‘old-school’) trained in classical Presbyterianism to honor authority structures in the church, which includes classical ordination, the removal of all women from leadership positions, and the subjection of women to the authority of men. He and his wife are on the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood because their theology fits CBMW. I hope to write a post in the near future expressing appreciation to Dr. Jones for his outstanding work in the field of paganism, but pointing out what I believe to be his unbiblical view of women. His system of authority is very Old Covenant (Jewish) with Christian terms to cover the Jewish ones (synagogue/church, priests/pastors, sacrifice/tithing, circumcision/infant baptism, etc…).
    Having said all the above, I think your defense of Janet Mefferd and doing what you can to ensure Dr. Jones intellectual material is not appropriated as Mark Driscoll’s, is another evidence of doing what we do on the basis of principle, not personalities. The proof of the absence of tribalism is that one will defend the dishonored, support the slandered, and attend to the abused FROM THE OTHER CAMP.
    Most people do not know that I hold to Isaac Newton’s chronology of the Old Testament, including a young earth, and believe in divine election – two views that Dee does not hold. However, Dee and I fellowship because of our love for Christ and people – and we both give room to other views because we do not believe we have a corner on the truth. Whatever one says about Driscoll’s book (and I’ve said a great deal), it must be said he does make a great point about God’s people working together for the good of the Kingdom of God and not breaking up into tribal groups and fighting each other.
    Thanks for demonstrating this to your readers.

    Wade, outstanding comments! Probably the most important comment I have ever read on this site and one that I would encourage all TWW readers to take to heart. If those of us outraged by SGM, Mahaney, Driscoll, etc end of resorting to the same tactics against people we don’t like, then we end of being no better than they are. We become what we claim to despise. Thanks again Wade!!

  46. Charley Mefferd wrote:

    Why did you have to go and screw up tomorrow’s big news? It WAS going to be her award-winning lasagna recipe but now she and Bobby will have to come up with something new during Hr 2 (3p ET).

    :lol: My apologies. What can I say, I really like lasagna! I hope she still discusses the recipe. :)

    Chris Rosebrough covered the Mefferd-Driscoll story on his show the other day. He has his own theory as to why the publisher (Tyndale House) has not gone public with a comment, and his theory does not bode well for Driscoll.

    He talks about it after the “William Tapley’s Positive Message” segment:
    Roundup of Mefferd-Driscoll News

  47. Alan wrote:

    You know, it would be nice if we could stay on topic here. This thread is about MD and Mefferd. Sorry to be harsh, but nobody else here cares about whatever beef you have with BJU.

    :lol: In a thread that went even more off the range with folks exchanging lasagna recipes and discussing the finer points of ground beef vs minced meat. :lol:

  48. Alan wrote:

    Sorry to be harsh, but nobody else here cares about whatever beef you have with BJU.

    Er.

    Sorry to be harsh. But you really don’t speak for everybody.

    There is great freedom on this blog to talk about concerns.
    No one should feel they have a right to shut down someone else expressing their concerns.

  49. @ Alan:

    Actually, it is quite relevant. Janet Mefferd needs to be consistent. Anyone here can search “Bob Jones University” on TWW and google to see that this is a real issue, not any “personal beef” I have with BJU. What is your connection to BJU?

    All, I direct you to this comment that Alan just left in response to Daisy on another thread which demonstrates that he has no intention of being civil: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/11/22/mark-driscoll-hangs-up-on-janet-meffords-questions-about-plagiarism-and-strange-fire/#comment-121012

    And as Mara has just pointed out and will be further demonstrated, your “nobody cares” comment applies only to yourself here.

  50. @ Mara: Not sure if you saw my reply to you down there in the Vision Forum post comments… at any rate, one of the points I wanted to make (not well-explained on my part) was that Gandhi’s insistence on non-violence was directly related to the goal of achieving Indian independence from the UK. They wanted self-government, and they got it, by primarily non-violent means.

  51. Alan wrote:

    You know, it would be nice if we could stay on topic here. This thread is about MD and Mefferd. Sorry to be harsh, but nobody else here cares about whatever beef you have with BJU.

    Oh, you know, just little things like how they protect and harbor abusers, and how they’ve institutionalized a legalistic system that is by its very nature abusive. Yeah, it’s no big deal, and certainly not relevant to anything we talk about here at TWW.

    (abuse is a serious issue, and I don’t like to be flippant about it, but for some people, sarcasm is all I have to give; my apologies)

  52. Daisy wrote:

    In a thread that went even more off the range with folks exchanging lasagna recipes and discussing the finer points of ground beef vs minced meat.

    So what else is new?

    It even predates the Internet — I’ve been going to SF cons since 1975 and haven’t attended a panel that didn’t wander off-topic at some point.

  53. @ numo:

    Yes, I saw it.
    I didn’t figure much more needed to be said.
    We are predominately on the same page even if we look at things from different angles and express ourselves differently.

    Sometimes I get frustrated with myself when I feel misunderstood. I don’t automatically blame the other person. But instead, I want to make sure that I’m communicating as clearly as possible. And I want to correct my mistakes or ‘glossing over’ done in haste. I’m really too busy to be commenting here as much as I do. But it’s hard to stay out of these discussions.

  54. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Alan wrote:

    but nobody else here cares about whatever beef you have with BJU.

    Sorry, Alan, but… beef… lol
    T

    Yeah I would suggest Allen have anything but a beef with Nicholas….on this thread. LOL

  55. @ Alan:

    “You know, it would be nice if we could stay on topic here. This thread is about MD and Mefferd. Sorry to be harsh, but nobody else here cares about whatever beef you have with BJU.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    alan….. pipe down.

  56. Shout out on the live Janet Mefferd show just now to the “good women of the “Wartburg Watch” blog. The context was that you posted about MD’s link to Tyndale.

    Janet has said she is about to put forth other incidents of (Alleged) plagiarism.

  57. @ Alan:

    nobody else here cares about whatever beef you have with BJU.

    Their ultra-legalistic, ridiculous student handbook that, if I recall correctly, allows guns but not PG-13-rated movies, should be a good starting point. And that’s not even taking the abuse into account. Then it all gets even worse when you realize they’re more liberal than PCC.

  58. I was chewing on what I’ve read and another thought came to mind. What if….this plagiarism by Mark Driscoll is actually a by-product of the Reformed Industrial Complex? For example…many of these guys are all about books, books, books, and publish, publish, publish. Since Mark Driscoll and John Pier and others are consumed with quantity over quality, what if that led to Driscoll cutting standards and lowering the bar? For example look at the academic books cranked out by scholars at an established university. Do they crank out an average of one book per year to every two years? Could it be that given the pressure that exists to publish since that is part of the “trinity” of a celebrity fundagelcial pastor that they have reached their tipping point? (The other part of the “trinity” is talking about sex and boasting about authority) Can we call Mark Driscoll the Michael Milken of Fundagelicalsim? One frauded people through selling junk bonds while the other allegedly frauded theology and Christians by stealing intellectual property.

    With the rate that things are being published there really is no original thought. No contributing works that deepen or enrich anything at all. What has arisen is publishing a book for the sake of publishing a book so you can brag about how many books you published. I seem to have read somewhere that even Pope Piper The First (John Piper) has recycled chapters from earlier books to re-publish on recent works. These guys are not complimenting or making contributions to Christianity. On top of Mark Driscoll, John Piper I could also pull out exhibit A being James MacDonald.

    But I’ll rest my case.

  59. The Reformed Industrial Complex is one of the things I like about historic Protestnaism and Catholicism/EO. How often do you see wars to publish books by Catholic Priests, Greek Orthordox Priests and Episcopilian clergy? You don’t?

    Dee how did your picture turn out with Sovereign Grace Fairfax? Are we going to see that on this website? The thing I laughed about is seeing all the signs to guide people in to the parking lot. Mark Mullery must think people are dumb sheep. I wonder if other Sovereing Grace pastors in the area think similarily…

  60. @ Eagle:

    I agree with your thought, that the pressure to produce a book a year has perhaps caused them to lower standards, but it’s still no excuse for it. In any other profession (journalism, academia, etc.), there is a huge consequence for plagiarism, but that doesn’t seem to exist with religious leaders.

  61. “The evidence of our claim?…”

    Janet’s Mefferd’s Blog:

    Janet said: “On Nov. 21, I conducted an interview with Mars Hill Church Pastor Mark Driscoll. During the course of the interview, I questioned Pastor Driscoll about two sections of his book, “A Call to Resurgence,” which neglected to contain any quotes, detailed footnotes or attribution for his reproduction of another scholar’s thoughts and insights. The passages in question are on pages 38-47 and pages 185-189 of Pastor Driscoll’s book. Those pages of material all borrow from the original material of Dr. Peter Jones, cited here in his books, “Gospel Truth and Pagan Lies” and “One or Two: Seeing a World of Difference.”

    Today, we also revealed that Pastor Driscoll has lifted material from another source — word for word — in another of his books, “Trial: 8 Witnesses From 1&2 Peter.” This was a book published in 2009 by Mars Hill Church. On pages 7 and 8, Driscoll lifts and publishes, under his own name, an entire section from “1 Peter,” New Bible Commentary: 21st Century Edition, Ed. D. A. Carson, 4th ed. (Downers Grove, Ill.: Inter-Varsity Press, 1994), p. 1370.

    MATERIAL SCREENSHOTS HERE:

    http://www.janetmefferd.com/wp-content/uploads/MATERIAL-SCREENSHOTS-HERE.pdf

    On Nov. 23, Pastor Driscoll posted an article on his website, entitled “We Even Lie About Our Lying.” In that article, he writes the following: “Deception is where we twist the truth into a weapon for harm and destruction. Cheating in school. Half-truths on a resume. Falsifying reports at work. Double-billing clients. And, pastors are notorious for ‘borrowing’ material. All of us are guilty of deception to some degree. Its prevalence, however, does not change the fact that deception is a demonic, satanic issue.”

    http://marshill.com/2013/11/23/we-even-lie-about-our-lying

    It is evident from this article and from his own sermons and website material that Pastor Driscoll understands the seriousness of committing plagiarism.

    Scripture is clear that Christians are to be holy, exhibiting the highest standards of ethics, integrity and morality in obedience to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. There is an even higher standard of conduct expected for Christian pastors, as Scripture clearly says they must be “above reproach.” (I Timothy 3:2, Titus 1:6) Plagiarism is a significant ethical breach that has ended the careers of academics and journalists alike, and especially in view of our calling before God to be upright and godly, Christians should not dismiss such charges lightly.

    Since many listeners have asked for the evidence of our claims, we have compiled 27 pages of material for public investigation. It is our hope that people will examine the evidence and determine whether or not these charges of plagiarism are true.”

    “But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: ‘Be holy, because I am holy.’” (I Peter 1:15-16)

    For the glory of God,

    Janet
    ___
    http://www.janetmefferd.com/plagiarism-examine/

  62. @ Alan:
    I agree that was a great comment and he pointed out some very important things. From my experience, if you hold to complementarian beliefs, you:

    1. Do not believe in progressive revelation
    2. Your worldview is shaped by it
    3. Your concept of church is warped by it
    4. You don’t have both feet in the New Covenant

    One of the failings of the SGMSurvivors site (the first website formed to expose SGM by offering testimony after testimony of people sharing their SGM experiences and speaking out against SGM) is their refusal to allow to be discussed the “role” (haha) complementarianism has played as a PRIMARY factor in the organization, as a whole, being completely off base in terms of their claims to “sound doctrine” and “gospel-centeredness.” The moderators themselves were never SGM members and simply do not see the horrific implications of SGM’s teachings. It is a matter of fact that one of Mahaney’s prime directives was to keep women out of leadership in every area of ministry within the church, and used his success in doing so as a source of pride in comparing SGM to the ministries of Dever, Mohler, Russell, et al. It was his trump card and he expected others to follow his model of church leadership and governance because of his “success” in keeping women subjugated. Despite Mahaney’s humble overtones, this is what he derived so much of his pride and satisfaction in having achieved, as proof of the effectiveness of his leadership and his supposed dedication to keeping the “main thing the main thing” and having everything “gospel centered.” So, if he ever observed women attempting to make their mark in any of the churches he visited associated with the RBD’s, I guarantee that he inwardly was going “Tsk tsk, we would never allow for THAT. We do it better. These guys need to learn from ME.”

    Some people refer to complementarianism as a ‘secondary’ issue, which is why they don’t like it discussed at Survivors (but its really because the moderators are complementarians). Within SGM this was no secondary issue. It was so primary that if you stepped out of line, you got slapped in the face. And then they covered that up.

  63. @ Mara: I think you’re right about different angles, same/similar thoughts, and I *really* kwym about not always expressing myself clearly due to being in haste.

    What sounds right in my head isn’t always the best way of writing it out!

  64. @ Peter:
    If Driscoll has a lasagna recipe to promote, advertise and include in a book, in all likelihood it’s 14 pages long including instructions and swiped from Mario Batali with credit given to his wife Grace!

  65. @ Evie: Darn. We like to play behind the curtain. When Deb called me, for a moment I thought she was saying that we got in trouble and I almost had a heart attack in the line at the Honey Baked Ham store. I did not cede my position in line, however.

  66. Eagle wrote:

    better start researhcing DA Carson and Trinity! Maybe this can be a bridge to discussing how Hyper-Reformed screwed up the Evangelical Free Church of America.

    That answers a question I had. I was listening to a lecture series by Carson in opposition to the Openness of God theism (after reading Greg Boyd’s book to get the other side) and was wondering what Carson was doing speaking to an EFree group.

  67. I swear these guys are so stupid. Did he not think that he would get caught one of these days? Or was someone ghosting for him and he wasn’t checking? Was he having too much fun invading conferences as if he didn’t have enough of his own to attend?

    And he said Janet Mefferd needed to grow? ROFL!

  68. When will evangelcials hold their own accountable? As I learned through my 6 year faith meltdown – which was hell by the way – evangelcials needlesly create their own enemies and give birth to many atheists. Many atheists are not oppossed to Christianity because they think its foolish to preach Christ crucified. No….many atheists oppose Christianity because they see the corruption, cronyism, etc….that plays out. I have to do a lot of analysis of this topic for multiple reasons. But as I see it here is the million dollar question.

    1. Will DA Carson practice what he has taught and tell Mark Driscoll that he doesn’t have the charachter to be a pastor and that he should quit ministry and resign?
    2. If DA Carson does not call Driscoll out does he have the ethics to teach at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School?
    3. What will the Evangelical Free Church of America (EFCA) do? Will they tolerate a professor who gives a pass to unethical conduct because Carson may like Driscoll’s theology? Remember when it comes to Carson…this is the same clown who gave CJ Mahnaey a pass. All this corruption – which is what I think of when I think of hyper-reformed Christinaity – has damaged the reputation of TEDS and the EFCA.

    Christianity is ugly Dee in many parts of the theological spectrum. The crowd that Driscoll hangs around with is corrupt. This is the type of leadership and corruption I expect to see in Latin America or Africa, in a Third World Military Dictatorship. NOT Christianity.

  69. This also raises another issue that is crucial. What does this say about the discernment of CJ Mahaney, John Piper, James MacDonald, etc…

    1. CJ “Der Humble One who Blackmails” Mahaney was supposed to be discipling Driscoll. What does this say about Mahnaey’s ability to discern?
    2. Pope Piper the First (John Piper) talks about how he likes Mark Driscoll’s theology. What does this say about Piper’s ability to discern? Could this mean that John Piper doesn’t know how to discern and that he is a fraud?
    3. Is the reason why The Gambler (Wouldn’t it be nice every time James MacDonald is mentioned if Kennry Rogers “The Gambler” starts playing at TWW? Can GBTC look into that Dee?) pal around with Driscoll becuase corruption attracts like minded individuals?

    Could the fact that all the above mentionned hold up Mark Drisocll and fail to realzie that he is a fraud becuase they are all frauds- Piper, Mahaney, and MacDonald?

  70. Eagle wrote:

    (Wouldn’t it be nice every time James MacDonald is mentioned if Kennry Rogers “The Gambler” starts playing at TWW?

    One of the great lines in all of music is found in the Gambler.
    “You gotta know when to hold em,
    Know when to fold em,
    Know when to walk away
    Know when to run.”

  71. Eagle wrote:

    3. Is the reason why The Gambler (Wouldn’t it be nice every time James MacDonald is mentioned if Kennry Rogers “The Gambler” starts playing at TWW? Can GBTC look into that Dee?) pal around with Driscoll becuase corruption attracts like minded individuals?

    Hee, I just linked to that song on You Tube on a thread here a few days ago, in (this post, from the thread “Jerry Jenkins Apologizes for Being Seen Gambling in Casinos”)

    I am still in the midst of listening to the Mefferd program.

    She is reading quotes from Driscoll’s book and quoting from the book he got that information from.

    She’s also quoting Driscoll on stealing, :lol:

  72. Daisy wrote:

    Speaking of which, I dropped by again to leave this link (I have not listened to the show yet):
    Hour 2- Janet discusses whether or not Mars Hill Church Pastor Mark Driscoll is guilty of plagiarism.

    Just listened to it. Wow! Firing back @ Driscoll, Tyndall and Crossways – if they expected blind submission from this woman they were sadly mistaken. She responds with facts, logic, and passion on what was plagiarized and the need for integrity in publishing, along with three mentions of TWW.

    So will we see a fact-based response or just more attacks on how evil Mefferd is (for bringing up the truth BTW)

    Uppity women :-)

  73. Eagle wrote:

    Will they tolerate a professor who gives a pass to unethical conduct because Carson may like Driscoll’s theology?

    Like Purity of Ideology among Third World Dictator fanboys of the Soviet System?

  74. @ Daisy:

    I finished listening to the Mefferd show. Driscoll and Tyndale House got schooled.

    Wartburg Watch got props 3 – 4 times by Mefferd. She appreciated especially the info you guys dug up about Tyndale’s deal to publish more Driscoll- authored (or allegedly swiped) books.

  75. __

    “Crimping Da Publication Clammer?”

    hmmm…

    Janet : “Did you just plagiarize fourteen pages in that last book, Mark?”

    Janet : Come ta think of it did you plagiarize another work, in another book of yours as well?

    Mark: “H*ll yeah, my plagiarizing is top-notch…”

    -snark-

    give me ‘steam’ ?

    (grin)

    Griping about doze religious folks in da Union Jack about wearing dress, huh, Mark?

    What is da proverbial Seattle religious emperor MerkyD wearing now?

    hmmm…

    Egg…

    hahahahahahaha

    Sopy
    ___
    Comic relief: Eric Burdon – “Mama Told Me Not To Come?”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH47sJIFK0U&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    Bonus: Peter Gabriel- “Steam”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGTsNxxcG3o&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    *
    Notes:
    Mark Driscoll (#R13 Conference) – ‘The Problem with Christianity’
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rtic0yfaT8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

  76. Eagle wrote:

    LOL……..HUG when I listened to that on my Android I laughed so hard. Too funny !!!

    Funny and VERY germane to this thread’s subject matter.

  77. As a recent follower of your blog following the Furtick controversy, I am fascinated by the amount of books churned out by these celebrity pastors. If the message was that important, wouldn’t the book be published on a website for free, or at least as a free Download to a kindle/nook?

    As a Physician, it is an honor to be published in a major medical journal such as the New England Journal of Medicine or the British Journal of medicine. There is no financial incentive for having an article published, but the idea is that your research helps other physicians practice better evidence based medicine. Why do these pastors profit off of these “profound ideas/revelations/interpretations of scripture?” And of course if physicians or researchers invent a device or discover a new medication, the profits go to the institution who employs them. Why wouldn’t the church keep all of the profits from these books?

  78. Dr. X wrote:

    Why wouldn’t the church keep all of the profits from these books?

    You are witnessing the birth of the entitled pastor phenomenon. It’s not God’s ideas, it’s theirs and they want the cash as you have seen with Furtick. And boy, oh boy, are they entitled.

  79. @ Dr. X

    Welcome to TWW! You bring up an excellent point regarding the motivations of these pastors who feel the need to enlighten us with their WI$DOM. The more this plays out, the better we can assess their TRUE MOTIVATION$.

  80. One issue that hasn’t been discussed is why Tyndale is publishing Driscoll at all. Where are his other publishers, most notably Crossway and Thomas Nelson?

    How did Tyndale get the Resurgence Publishing line?

    Why did the mighty HarperChristian’s Thomas Nelson pass and let smaller Tyndale outbid them? Didn’t Driscoll earn out his advance on past projects?

    Has Crossway abandoned Driscoll because he’s no longer part of The Gospel Coalition?

  81. @ Eagle: Contrast all of that to the Pope’s recent speech on the need for compassion and care for the poor, needy, despised, etc.

    The thing is, these guys are white and middle-class, which means they are living in their own little virtual gated community, with all the “rabble” conveniently denied entrance. (Not that most people would want to live in their world, but you get the idea.) Inside the walls, they are “free” to engage in horrible behavior toward each other.

    That’s not to say that other parts of the church don’t have their problems – they do (human beings being what we are) – but more and more, I feel like this stuff is taking place in a parallel universe, in which these men believe in their own semi-divine status. So they run it as they see fit, and it’s anything but pretty!

  82. Dr. X wrote:

    As a recent follower of your blog following the Furtick controversy, I am fascinated by the amount of books churned out by these celebrity pastors. If the message was that important, wouldn’t the book be published on a website for free, or at least as a free Download to a kindle/nook?
    As a Physician, it is an honor to be published in a major medical journal such as the New England Journal of Medicine or the British Journal of medicine. There is no financial incentive for having an article published, but the idea is that your research helps other physicians practice better evidence based medicine. Why do these pastors profit off of these “profound ideas/revelations/interpretations of scripture?” And of course if physicians or researchers invent a device or discover a new medication, the profits go to the institution who employs them. Why wouldn’t the church keep all of the profits from these books?

    Great, great point(s).

    Makes me think of 1 Timothy 6, where Paul warns about the sort of pastor who “imagine(s) that godliness is a means of gain” (and who is “puffed up with conceit,” and “has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people”).

    If Mark Driscoll or anyone liked him ever attempted to be ordained in any denomination that has 1 Timothy 6 as a living and active Word, he wouldn’t have a chance. That may be one reason why he started his own denomination.

  83. Dee….can I suggest a post for Wednesday? How about what DA carson has taught about plagiarism? Examine his statements, teachings and then ask…what should DA Carson do? As I wrote above this raises a number of interesting questions about Ethics for Trinity. What are Trinity’s rules about plagiarism? Any doctoral or other students forced out for plagiarism? What ethical dilemma would Trinity be in if they continue to discipline students for plagiarism while a “renowned” professor gives Mark Driscoll a pass on plagiarism? Would this open up Trinity to lawsuits…after all I’d hate to be a student kicked out only to learn that a professor is giving grace to another prominent evangelical. You could also look at how other evangelicals have been treated with plagiarism..ie Richard Land.

    Deebs…you gals have the potential for a good post on Wednesday.

  84. To be honest Dee and Deb, it possible to incidentally plagiarize and not catch it. This just needs to be sorted out in terms of royalty issue. Not sure why all the outrage about it. Thought I would find something about Ken Starr issue tonight on the blog. Now that is bothersome!

  85. Casey wrote:

    To be honest Dee and Deb, it possible to incidentally plagiarize and not catch it. This just needs to be sorted out in terms of royalty issue. Not sure why all the outrage about it. Thought I would find something about Ken Starr issue tonight on the blog. Now that is bothersome!

    14 pages worth? I don’t think so.

    Christa Brown did a post on Ken Starr: http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/2013/11/baylor-president-writes-letter-of.html

  86. Listened to the link I just re-linked for Casey.

    Anyone who has not listen to this needs to.

    There is SOOOO much wrong with the Mars Hill machine. If it's plagiarism that exposes this sick entity, then let it be. At least they are actually being called on something. Hopefully it will expose more that is wrong.

  87. Nicholas wrote:

    Casey wrote:

    To be honest Dee and Deb, it possible to incidentally plagiarize and not catch it. This just needs to be sorted out in terms of royalty issue. Not sure why all the outrage about it. Thought I would find something about Ken Starr issue tonight on the blog. Now that is bothersome!

    14 pages worth? I don’t think so.

    Yeah. You really have to work at it to “incidentally” copy 14 pages almost word-for-word.

  88. numo wrote:

    …more and more, I feel like this stuff is taking place in a parallel universe, in which these men believe in their own semi-divine status. So they run it as they see fit, and it’s anything but pretty!

    Gods Can Do No Wrong.

  89. @ dee:
    Remember what Jesus said that is apropos this phenomenon: “They have their reward.” Question remains, does their greed reflect their not being a follower of the Christ, and thus they get no eternal reward? Or is their reward to be eternally very, very warm?

  90. Casey: ‘To be honest Dee and Deb, it possible to incidentally plagiarize and not catch it.’

    As a writer I think it is, but this is highly unlikely for 14 pages. Writers will be constantly monitoring the issue of referencing as they go a long, as part of the writing process (and worrying about getting it right). 14 pages is too long a writing time period to incidentally (actually what does that word mean? – accidentally?) plagiarise. It is much more likely that if Mark Driscoll did plagiarize it was because he got overconfident and stopped caring. I have seen this happen before in relation to a well known celebrity medical writer. Overwork is a possible contributory cause and also possibly having an inflated ego and a sense of your own invincibility. But it is not an excuse and lack of intent when you know the rules is not a good defense against plagiarism.

    To illustrate the thought processes that go into writing in July 2012, Mark Driscoll put on facebook the following quote: “To steal from one author is plagiarism; to steal from many is research.” – Wilson Mizner.” https://www.facebook.com/pastormark/posts/10150993500991912?comment_id=22787693&offset=0&total_comments=27

    There is has some truth in this quote. If you precis material from one source but fail to reference the source as you do it, that is plagiarism. But if you integrate ideas from multiple sources and come up with your own ideas, that can be seen as original. But you still should acknowledge the basis for your ideas, although some writers get away without doing this, hence the cynicism of the quote.

    Mark Driscoll would be finely tuned in relation the writing process and I suspect he instantly knew he had been rumbled, hence he went into such a vicious ‘attack mode’ because this is what he does if people cross him.

    As second point is that it isn’t necessarily a royalty issue – in this case it there would have been no royalties. Obviously, he if he had wanted to reprint a chapter then that is a different issue. It is an integrity issue because of passing off other ideas as your own is a form of intellectual theft.

    Also, one has to get into the mindset of Mark Driscoll to think how this might have occurred. It is very revealing that in the first chapter of his book “A call to Resurgence” the says “I’m also sick of the nerd parade of books and conferences that approach the bible like scholars whose mission is to get their master’s rather than soldiers who are on a mission with the Master.” In other words, it’s war and in war you don’t have to play by the rules. The normal rules of engagement don’t matter. Nerd people who are bookish get in the way.

    Having had people plagiarize your work is very unpleasant. My experience on one occasion is that was as unpleasant as being mugged in the long term. The copyright procedures and ethical codes are there to protect writers and should be respected. Christians leaders should be beyond reproach on this type of issue. Those caught should not try to defend themselves by denigrating their accusers.

    By the way, Dr X, physicians do get royalties for books. Most of the time it pays for a few coffees and a replacement keyboard, but the very popular text books can make quite a considerable sum. I once jokingly said to a medical author, when he had shown a picture of his house in a talk, did your textbook pay for that? To my surprise he said ‘yes.’ I think there is an argument, however, for the proceeds of a pastors book sales to go the to employing church, although it should be kept in mind the church in turn could abuse this situation by treating the pastor as a ‘cash cow.’ Probably the best is, as some writers do, give the money away.

  91. I wonder how much of Driscoll’s books he actually writes. It almost sounds like he gives a general outline of what he wants and has others gather the material and put it together for him. Certainly doesn’t get him off the hook for plagiarism, you put your name on it and claim it’s yours, you’re stuck with the consequences. Either way, his integrity as an author is zilch.

  92. Jeff T: I wonder how much of Driscoll’s books he actually writes.

    If there is ghost writing and plagiarism there is huge incompetence by the ghost writer. But he would have to read the generated material anyway – as you say, it is not an excuse.

    In the acknowledgements the books says ‘I would like to thank Dr. Justin Holcomb and the team at Docent Research group for their help with parts of this project.
    Justine Holcomb was a pastor at Mars Hill and is an author and adjunct professor of theology at the Reformed Theological Seminary. The Docent research group help people write books (http://www.docentgroup.com/ and are sermon researchers/ script writers.

  93. Happy Thanksgiving to all, and hope you enjoy the holiday!

    Quick question: someone said, best I remember, that you cannot be a gender comp and hold to progressive revelation.

    Can someone explain which progressive revelation that is? I’ve had evangelical pastors define that as God revealing more of Himself and His plan in the NT than in the old. I’ve had mainline pastors try to tell us that means when the canon of Scripture closed it began to go out of date and today we are not “limited” to it. I’ve had Mormon friends try to convince me revelation is ongoing through their prophets.

    So which were we discussing?

    Also, serious question, how are snarky comments about how many kids the Duggars/Quiverful folks have any different than Mark Driscoll’s snarky comments about people that disagree with him?

  94. Peter wrote:

    Also, one has to get into the mindset of Mark Driscoll to think how this might have occurred. It is very revealing that in the first chapter of his book “A call to Resurgence” the says “I’m also sick of the nerd parade of books and conferences that approach the bible like scholars whose mission is to get their master’s rather than soldiers who are on a mission with the Master.” In other words, it’s war and in war you don’t have to play by the rules. The normal rules of engagement don’t matter. Nerd people who are bookish get in the way.

    Right and let’s ignore that bit about “His truth is marching on!” and just march on, stepping on the useless nerds as we go with their needless emphasis on factuality.

    Ironic Driscoll would make such a point considering he’s in the business of proclamation. Where did he start assuming he could run roughshod with the Gospel like some kind of American cowboy starring in a spaghetti western?

  95. @ dee:

    I did, and with that and not knowing if something is written by a ghost writer or not, I have little desire to read what most of today’s supposed Christian leaders have to say.

    The entire concept of ghost writing seems dishonest to me. I read books expecting that I am reading what the ‘actual’ author has to offer me. To find out that the author didn’t write the book would leave me feeling deceived about and, more importantly, deceived by the author. He isn’t what he portrays himself as being and he purposely set out to do just that . . yuk! How a Christian writer could go down this road, I don’t understand.

  96. @ linda:
    Hi Lila, that was me :-)

    What I mean by Progressive Revelation is that God’s revelation of himself and his will is progressive.

    Within the concept of the Progressive Revelation I’m referring to, the bible is interpreted following the Creation/Fall/Redemption pattern. The basic tenet of this method of interpretation means that we interpret Bible verses as they pertain to each phase (creation or fall or redemption) and within their specific frame of reference or context. This is opposed to, say, taking verses from various time frames and cutting and pasting them together and then making them say something they didn’t teach in their original setting! There needs to be a respect for the integrity of each verse and that it be interpreted with respect to the book in which is is found. And then added to that there needs to be a huge distinction made between the time of preparation (OT) and the fulfillment (NT). The Old and the New represent different stages in the process of God’s revelation, with the ultimate revelation of God being in the ministry of Christ and the apostles he commissioned to teach on his behalf.

    The intention of the New Covenant was to restore the original purposes of creation through the ministry of Jesus Christ. As this relates to complementarianism, we look at the nature of male/female relations in the period of the Creation, examine what happened to them as a result of the Fall, then finally look at what was going on in the NT first through the ministry of Christ, then in the apostolic church in which the New Covenant was being fleshed out and the effects of the Fall were being radically resisted and overthrown.

    For a complete study of women in the Bible using the Progressive Revelation method of interpretation, please read “Beyond Sex Roles” by my hero Gilbert Bilezikian, in which he explains this further and does a stellar job of setting the record straight in regards to a woman’s place in the church and the family.

  97. dee wrote:

    Have you read that site?

    Using others to assist with research for a book is one thing – it’s something many authors do – but the author who uses the product of that research then vouches for the accuracy of that product.

    But any minister that uses someone else for sermon preparation (and presumably their church pays for it) ought to be dismissed. After 4 years of college and 3 (or more) years of seminary training you can’t do you own prep in a week for a 20 or so minute sermon on a few verses of text is the height of laziness. If you’re not the one sifting through various interpretations to determine how to present it to your congregation, then you have abandoned your duty as a minister.

  98. I wonder if people are going to go back and check Mark Driscoll’s books for plagarism now. Though it got me thinking…..if the problem of plagarism is bigger than what is reported…how many other books are affected? Can you imagine what this means? Let’s take “Real Marriage” for example! :-P Did Mark Driscoll plagarize pornograghy? Can you plagarize pornograghy? Does Hustler or Larry Flynt own any of the intellectual matieral used in Driscoll’s book “Real Marriage”

    Wowza…wouldn’t that be different if that happened. I take it that would be the first time in the history of fundagelicalism that a pastor plagarized a porn company. Is there such a thing as “Gospel Centered Porn?”

    Just asking…

  99. Aside from Richard Land, how many other evangelicals had their career affected due to plagiarism?

  100. On another note, what the heck kind of publisher (I.e. Tyndale and Crossway) takes plagiarism so cavalierly by attacking the one who raised the issue without providing a shred of defense? It’s evidence of a lack of integrity.

  101. @ JeffT:

    Jeff…at its core the Reformed Industrial Complex is corrupt. Tyndale and Crossway are corrupt. There are no ethical standards in place which you find in other parts of the business world. BTW…I wonder what Tim Challies will say. He always has an opinion on this movement…I wonder what he will say.

    Oh and by the way…since this is Hyper-Calvinism we are discussing I must ask the question. Since God foreordains everything..from evil, to tornadoes and people are merely pawns of what God has pre-determined…I must ask. Did God foreordain Driscoll’s plagarism? If God did foreordain this plagarism…then maybe what we could say that in the end Mark Driscoll was just worshipping God as he plagarized.

    Again…just asking…

  102. @ JeffT:

    If the men at these publishing houses have grown up within the walls of the YRR, then some of them may be immune to integrity. If they are followers of Driscoll, for example, then running over people with a bus is fine and dandy :) Maybe Driscoll forgot to let us all know that he is on a bus tour at the moment! That’s it! He’s doing a bus tour promoting his book :) Get out of the way folks!

  103. Bridget wrote:

    I did, and with that and not knowing if something is written by a ghost writer or not, I have little desire to read what most of today’s supposed Christian leaders have to say.
    The entire concept of ghost writing seems dishonest to me.

    Tip:
    If the book cover includes the phrase “As Told To”, it’s ghosted.
    If the first author is a CELEBRITY(TM) and the second you’ve never heard of before, it’s ghosted.
    If the author on the cover is a CELEBRITY(TM), it’s probably ghosted. Probability goes up as the CELEBRITY(TM)’s name gets Bigger.

    There are even “book production houses” dedicated to ghosting Best Sellers, written to focus-group-derived formula. The Author of record just fronts for the production house, and may or may not have anything to do with the book itself. (At most, maybe an idea/outline.) The Author of record is usually chosen for a “gimmick”; if you’re a blind black lesbian from the ‘hood who hobnobs with Paris Hilton and Kim Kardashian, you’re sitting on top of a gold mine. Some even have an actor front for the author-of-record at public appearances if said author isn’t photogenic/telegenic enough.

    How a Christian writer could go down this road, I don’t understand.

    “IT’S ALL ABOUT THE BENJAMINS, BABY!”
    And the Inner Ring of CELEBRITY Christian Authors appearing at each others’ Conferences, “Fellowshipping” with other CELEBRITY Christian Authors (HUMBLY, of course), being Big Dogs For Gawd.

  104. Pingback: Is Mark Driscoll A Serial Plagiarist? | SecularNews.Org UNITED STATES

  105. @ Eagle:

    Nah. Driscoll did this all on his own. But, God can use the circumstances that Driscoll has gotten himself into to shed some light. If Driscoll allows it. It could be a “teachable moment” as I’ve often heard preachers say ;)

  106. Janet Mefferd says there will be even more Mark Driscoll plagiarism revealed today!

    I wonder how long before Al Mohler joins him in a conference or Mark Dever speaks at his church, telling his congregation how blessed they are to have him as their pastor!

  107. @ Evie:

    In my journey out of fundamentalism, I began to realize (for myself, others will differ of course) that the Bible is NOT a blueprint.

  108. Finally, my response to Tyndale and Crossway with the same amount of substance as their attack on Mefferd, and in the spirit of the holiday:

    Mark Driscoll is a cheater, cheater pumpkin eater.

  109. @ TW:

    I wonder if Pope Piper the First is going to talk about how much he loves Mark Driscoll’s theology! Someone needs to post that video again!! Since John Piper as YRR’s Pope speaks Ex-Cathedra and has the final say on much of what happens with this crowd would Mark Driscoll be who is…if John Piper hadn’t given him his blessing. Yes the Catholics have Rome…the YRR have Louisville…or is that Mineapolis?!? For the next year or sosicne Pope Piper the First is in Louisville that will be the theological capital of this crowd.

    My heart breaks for those living in Louisville…I’d rathor be living in Salt Lake City (yes even with some of my LDS past…) than be in Louisville! :-P

  110. BTW…Here’s what Mars Hill says about plagirism on their church website.

    http://marshill.com/creativecommons

    Under what circumstances can we use content we find on the Site?

    You may use and share, through social media websites, sermons, articles, blogs, and other material purposely made available by Mars Hill for downloading from the Site, as long as you (1) do not remove any proprietary notice language included on, or incorporated into, the material, (2) use the material only for your personal, non-commercial informational purpose and, except to share through social media websites (e.g., Twitter, Facebook, etc.), do not copy or post the material on any networked computer or broadcast it in any media, (3) make no cuts or modifications to any material or make any derivative works from any materials and (4) not make any additional representations or warranties relating to the material.

    If I use material from one of Pastor Mark’s sermon’s do I need to cite him as the source of that material?

    Yes. If you don’t cite him, you are plagiarizing. If you use content from one of Pastor Mark’s sermons or from one of his books, you need to attribute the content (whether it is a quote or paraphrase) to Pastor Mark. Also, even though we make transcripts available of our sermons, this does not mean you can take the transcript and deliver the sermon as though it is your own. This too is plagiarism.

    The same answer applies to your use of sermon content from any other pastors and any of our blog posts.

  111. @ TW:

    Trueman really needs to clean up his part in exonerating Mahaney for ministry if he wants to be taken seriously. He has no moral street cred.

  112. Eagle wrote:

    @ TW:

    I wonder if Pope Piper the First is going to talk about how much he loves Mark Driscoll’s theology! Someone needs to post that video again!! Since John Piper as YRR’s Pope speaks Ex-Cathedra and has the final say on much of what happens with this crowd would Mark Driscoll be who is…if John Piper hadn’t given him his blessing. Yes the Catholics have Rome…the YRR have Louisville…or is that Mineapolis?!? For the next year or sosicne Pope Piper the First is in Louisville that will be the theological capital of this crowd.

    My heart breaks for those living in Louisville…I’d rathor be living in Salt Lake City (yes even with some of my LDS past…) than be in Louisville!

    Eagle, Piper moved to Nashville. His son, Barnabas, was given a fat cat job at Lifeway (He was not even Baptist at the time but Presbtyterian) as “content media strategist. Daddy moved there after retirement, too. Lots of money to be made in Nashville for Christian celebs.

  113. @ TW:

    They do not have the same empathy for Driscoll as they do for Mahaney. In fact, they took Acts 29 from Driscoll and put it in Chandler’s hands because Mark was an embarasssment….even though Mark is on the board. Why? It is all about doctrine. Driscoll excused TD Jakes. It is one reason why Driscoll and MacDonald have become such pals. Both were snubbed by the YRR leadership over Jakes. NOt over all the other scandals, mind you.

  114. The only thing that confuses me in all this is Tyndale House. I think they have made a huge mistake in how they handled this from the very beginning.

  115. Anon 1 wrote:

    @ TW:
    Trueman really needs to clean up his part in exonerating Mahaney for ministry if he wants to be taken seriously. He has no moral street cred.

    Yup. He had written and talked a lot about the dangers of celebrity ministers and what he said was right on point and really good – but then he seems to have completely forgotten about his own advice when has was a member of the Gang of Three with their bucket of whitewash that issued the report declaring CJ Mahaney as fit for the ministry, and later speaking at an SGM conference. Trueman can talk the talk but it doesn’t appear he walks the walk in some very important instances.

  116. Anon 1 wrote:

    E.G. wrote:
    As they eat their own… Pyromaniacs blog (an arm of McArthur, et al.) has a three-part series on Driscoll. Third part here, with links there to the other two parts: http://teampyro.blogspot.ca/2013/11/janet-mefferd-alternate-ending.html
    These people make NO sense. Where were they on Mahaney?

    Because Mark Driscoll’s plagiarism, potty mouth, anal sex is clearly wrong, but sex abuse with the right theology on complementarianism is not?

  117. __

    Spin- A- Yarn: “Tell Me Anodder Story?”

    @ Numo❤

    HowDee!

        Maybe you’re on ta something. Numo, maybe MerkyD is a proverbial make-believe pastor; the qualifications of which, he simply “lifted” from ‘another tale’ …

    -snicker-

    hmmm…

    Don’t ‘real pastors’, follow Jesus?

    “For whoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother…” ~ Jesus

    *

    hum, hum, hum…

    …♪♫♪ I wrest the waters, fight spiritual waters,
    Sail through the sorrows of these proverbially nefarious church marauders,
    that are un-repenting, often empty,

    Sail on, sail on Christian?

    These pastors are caught like a sewer ratz, but still do they wail from the pulpit,
    Bought by the blood of Jesus, will we live to tell the tale?

    Often stumble, about to crumble,
    Take a  tumble, church is a conundrum,
    Feel the stinging, these pastors been giving!
    The religious nightmare never ending, unrelenting,
    Heartbreak searing, always twisting,
    Never caring…

    talk about persevering?

    Sail on, sail on, Christian? (1)

    *

    “Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth?”

    hmmm…

    You can try…

    (grin)

    hahahahahaha

    Sopy
    ___
    Comic relief: Al Mohler – ‘on Mark Driscoll…’
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJZ04OQMi8w&feature=youtube_gdata_player
    Bonus: Matthew Sweet & Darius Rucker – ‘Sail On Sailor’
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnZK1zFFyKI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    Note(s):
    (1) Beachboys : Sail On Sailor’ ; U.S. title 17 disclaimer, lyrics reflect parody adaptation, copyrighted material, Lyrics © BUG MUSIC, all rights reserved. Songwriters: RAY KENNEDY, TANDYN ALMER, BRIAN WILSON, VAN DYKE PARKS, JOHN RIELEY III; The Beach Boys- ‘Sail On, Sailor’ (3:18); From Good Vibrations: Thirty Years of The Beach Boys and 20 other releases; Lead vocal by Blondie Chaplin. Originally from the album “Holland”. Current performance: “Sail On, Sailor” (Live) – Brian Wilson, Al Jardine, David Marks – Oakland, Paramount – Oct 23, 2013
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slpiUdXBgrs&feature=youtube_gdata_player
    See also: 
    http://www.last.fm/music/The+Beach+Boys/Good+Vibrations:+Thirty+Years+of+The+Beach+Boys

    ;~)

  118. @ Shannon H.:

    The page you linked to quoted Furtick:

    Pastor Steven Furtick of Elevation Church in Charlotte, N.C., does not seem to have a problem with using other pastor’s sermons, according to his own blog post, “Steal the Stuff You Suck at.” In this short blog entry, Furtick discusses the benefits of sermon sharing, and explains his reasoning behind his practice of “ripping people off.”

    “Tap the strengths of others to compensate for your weaknesses. This will allow you to play to your communicative strengths,” said Furtick.

    Chris Rosebrough has caught preachers stealing sermons from other preachers before and airs these stolen sermons on Fighting for the Faith.

    He found one preacher copying off another’s sermon about marriage, down to using a red and blue plastic cup on the pulpit filled with candy to represent a husband and wife.

    He also aired a sermon of a guy copying an Andy Stanley sermons using the movie “Juno” as an illustration.

    There have been a lot of preachers claiming to be former Navy Seals, and they are no such thing.

  119. Anon 1 wrote:

    These people make NO sense. Where were they on Mahaney?

    This is important, but not nearly as much, so it’s easier for them to talk about.

    Also, I have a feeling that Driscoll has outstayed his welcome, and he’s easier to throw under the bus.

  120. Julie Anne wrote:

    Because Mark Driscoll’s plagiarism, potty mouth, anal sex is clearly wrong, but sex abuse with the right theology on complementarianism is not?

    Purity of Ideology, Comrades.

  121. Daisy wrote:

    There have been a lot of preachers claiming to be former Navy Seals, and they are no such thing.

    Yo – me too! (Not a former Navy Seal, I mean.)

    (Not actually a preacher either, but hey.)

  122. Someone here linked to the Pyro blog where one Merrilee Stevenson said…

    This ongoing fiasco has been interesting, to say the least. I commented on Janet Mefferd’s Radio Show on facebook that it would be interesting to see if either party would be willing to give it a second chance. Give Driscoll the benefit of the doubt that the plagiarism was unintentional….

    Driscoll is about 49, 50 years old, was a media major in college – and plenty of instructors in colleges teach about citation.

    How does one arrive at age 50, with a college degree (‘degree in speech communication from the Edward R. Murrow School of Communication,’ no less), and remain “ignorant” about how and when to credit authors?

    How can copying 14 pages from one book be construed by anyone as being due to ignorance or “unintentional,” and according to Mefferd, Driscoll also copies several paragraphs, word from word from another book.

    How is this much copying “unintentional” or “accidental?”

    I left a couple of posts at Wade Burlesons blog a couple of days ago telling him he was being far too charitable towards Driscoll, as is the lady above.

    I minored in journalism briefly, and even in my non journalism courses, I was hit over the head by instructors (even at community college level, before going to two diff four yr. schools) about the importance of citing other people’s work if you quote them or use their ideas.

    I even get these lectures about how to cite and why to cite while in HIGH SCHOOL, as early as freshman or sophomore year.

    I had one English teacher who would deduct X points for every un-cited comment in a research paper (not that I did it, but a girl three seats in front of me was dismayed to get so many points deducted from her paper for not citing, that she got an “F” on one paper).

    You’d have to be brain dead or living under a rock not to know about plagiarism, why it’s wrong, and not to know how and when to cite sources in a paper or book.

    I do not buy for a hot second that Driscoll simply made an innocent boo boo, was ignorant, or that it was not intentional.

    I think guys like Driscoll do this because they think they can get away with it, or have such big egos, they don’t think anyone will call them out for it or hold them accountable.

  123. By the way, Tyndale House Publishers are different from Tyndale House in Cambridge UK – the latter is devoted to scholarly study of the bible and funded by private support. I imagine not much plagiarism is tolerated there!

    http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/index.php?page=about-tyndale-house

    Personally, I think having researchers help write a book is fine – wish I had some to help! Winston Churchill used researchers for his book, including his volumes about the second world war which won him a Nobel Prize in 1963.

    You can see lots of stats in the Driscoll book, which look like they have been researched by the Docent Research Group.

    Ghost writing I think is OK for celebrities, such as film stars, models and sports people, who maybe cannot write. But for serious content like a Christian book it is dubious, in my view.

    I don’t know if Mark Driscoll does use a ghost writer or just have research done by Justin Holcomb and the Docent research group. I suspect it was research and advice with writing – perhaps some passages are written by them.

    It would be fairly easy to study his style between books to see how much help he is getting, unless Docent are good at imitating his style.

    The copy editing / publishing at Tyndale House Publishers was seriously flawed. To retain credibility in this case somebody will from the publisher will have to admit to something.

    I listened to the Mefferd show and in my opinion Tyndale House Publishers are handling this issue very badly so far – I know it is her side of the story, but some of the objective things they have done do not put them in a good light and are quite surprising coming from a publisher.

  124. We are having some technical difficulties with our work page in WordPress. We have decided to publish a post we had already completed. Hopefully we can get this worked out by Friday.

  125. Peter wrote:

    The copy editing / publishing at Tyndale House Publishers was seriously flawed. To retain credibility in this case somebody will from the publisher will have to admit to something.

    There are more apparent copies on the DA Carson book. That was published in house at Mars HIll. I fear that more revelations will be forthcoming.

  126. dee wrote:

    We are having some technical difficulties with our work page in WordPress. We have decided to publish a post we had already completed. Hopefully we can get this worked out by Friday.

    It’s probably my comments.

  127. TW wrote:

    Dear Tyndale Publishers,
    You may wish to utilize this software on any book allegedly authored by Mark Driscoll. Just sayin.

    http://www.ithenticate.com

    We can’t submit papers on my Master’s programme without having first run it through something similar for assessment of plagiarism, similarities & unattributed sources. I am amazed that this is not standard practice in publishing.

  128. Beakerj wrote:

    We can’t submit papers on my Master’s programme without having first run it through something similar for assessment of plagiarism, similarities & unattributed sources. I am amazed that this is not standard practice in publishing.

    Those systems are great, assuming that the “model” for the query is either owned by the querying system or on a public database.

    In other words, if particular books are not digitalized in completion and completely available, the query will fail because it won’t find the match (as the match is not visible to it).

    It works for term papers, theses, etc. because much of the underlying literature (e.g. scientific papers) is digitized. In addition the person submitting the query document also consents to having that document placed into the overall software database. So the strength of the system increases as more people use it.

    I suppose that if publishers were serious about this, they’d develop an in-house system in which the submitted all of their works to a common pool. But considering the tooth-and-nail struggle to survive between publishers these days, I can’t quite imagine them getting their act together to do this.

  129. Daisy wrote:

    How does one arrive at age 50, with a college degree (‘degree in speech communication from the Edward R. Murrow School of Communication,’ no less), and remain “ignorant” about how and when to credit authors?

    Not hard if you subscribe to “If you get caught, Play Dumb.”

  130. __

    “Zip It…Zip It Good: Profuse Pastoral Plagiarism Prevention?”

    hmmm…

    “Plagiarism prevention is a critical element in preserving scholarly and scientific integrity.” ~ Chris Cross, General Manager, iThenticate (1)

    …isn’t da men of the cloth saposta be ‘above’ such… ‘alleged’ things? (you would think. huh?)

    What?

    If someone was to ‘plagiarize’ Pastor Mark Driscoll’s work, you can be dang sure he would (more than likely) be all over dat ‘sorry’ violator(s) @zz – like a big daddy pig in warm excrement.

    huh?

    Lõõks like holding MarkyD’s hand has become a full time ‘oversight’ job, – you would think that reducing his ‘religious’ playpen ta da provernial Planet MarzHill would have corral’d da problem…

    (sadface)

    Call MerkyD, datz da name, and away goez religious publishing, down da drain?

    -snark-

    Whoz he gonna bop in da nose dis time?

    Skreeeeeeeeeeeetch!

    Stay tuned…

    Sopy
    ___
    Comic relief: “Who You Gonna Call?”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKB7zfopiUA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    Note(s): 
    (1) http://www.ithenticate.com/

    ;~)

  131. Apparently nobody gets what I am getting at. Driscoll has an ego problem there is no question about this. I can tell you though this plegarism is something I am sure that they can work out between them. Since there is nothing new unde the sun I really don’t get all this. There are far worse sins. By the way King Solomon said that..

  132. @ Casey:
    Because he pretends that he is is brilliant and different. He isn’t. He is just another charlatan and this proves it. I bet there is more coming.

  133. Anon 1 wrote:

    They do not have the same empathy for Driscoll as they do for Mahaney.

    Mahaney kisses their egos. Driscoll kisses his own ego.

  134. An Attorney wrote:

    Remember what Jesus said that is apropos this phenomenon: “They have their reward.”

    So interesting you mention that. Many times, when I read about preachers with the 16,000 sq ft homes, private jets, lucrative book deals, I think of that very verse.

    (Matt 6)
    “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.

    I know Jesus was specifically discussing people who make a big show out of their charitable deeds in public (which some of those preachers do), but in my mind, it also rather fits their habit of making money for themselves from church members.

  135. linda wrote:

    Also, serious question, how are snarky comments about how many kids the Duggars/Quiverful folks have any different than Mark Driscoll’s snarky comments about people that disagree with him?

    I mentioned the Quivering/ Duggar thing in context of Mefferd, and how she is right on some issues but wrong on others, such as not realizing how some Christian groups are not orthodox (she assumes they are), and how such groups have turned marriage/having babies into idols (such as Quivering/Duggars). Very valid points on my part.

    Mefferd seems to assume having tons of kids = “pro family” in some kind of traditional, biblical sense, but it’s not, not necessarily, as taught and practiced by some families.

    I was not “snarky” about it though, so I’m at a loss to know what you mean there, unless someone else said something.

  136. Casey wrote:

    I can tell you though this plegarism is something I am sure that they can work out between them.

    Who is the “them” you refer to?

    By this point, Mefferd has pointed out at least two different authors (I think) that Driscoll has lifted from, Jones and someone else, from two different books.

    Mefferd is just the messenger; it’s the authors and/or their publishers Driscoll needs to get together with, to work things out.

  137. Well I haven’t been around in a long time because I’ve been finishing my PhD (submitted my thesis last Friday – WOOHOO!!!) so this is an interesting topic to come back to. I have to say, I’ve been writing academic papers and my thesis and had to sign forms that everything I write is my own work and that all quotes and sources are properly attributed. If I plagiarised a concept in a paper and claimed it as my own, I’d be kicked out of university. If ANY academic plagiarised such an amount as is alleged, that is their career GONE. It’s actually disturbing how blase Driscoll and his supporters and publisher seem to be about this, and it really reflects terribly on their integrity to act as if plagiarism doesn’t matter.

  138. “Wartburg-witch-a-nomics?”

    hmmm…

    Make a wish: does does da proverbial ‘reformed’ Seattle ‘turkey’ get a pardon?

    Janet Mifford: “Go fish…”

    *

    Pin da tall ‘tale’ on da proverbial turkey? Again?

    huh?

    Reporter: “…you realize Pastor Driscoll, as a man of the cloth, – you aren’t wearing any cloths? ”

    What?

    …when you dishonor God, when you make a mockery of Scripture by actions rendered, when you teach, by example, that you can act toward the household of Christ in any other way than the love of God, are you not a tool in the hand, but yet not of God?

    Skreeeeeeeetch!

    How do we know, what test can we ‘acceptably’ administer, that would render a positive verdict, that we love those in Jesus’ household?

    Simple. 

    When we love God, and observe His commandments.

    *

    Q: What is the indwelling life of Christ, in the believer, intended to do?

    Q: What does it mean for us to be “in Christ”?

    Quack! Quack! 

    …neither on Driscoll’s bandwagon of ‘suspenders’ nor camp’in wit his adversaries?

    “YAHN!!!” 

    (how bout…)

    …neither under his proverbial bus.

    Religiously corralled and thought controlled, the hard questions never ever being asked?

    you gotz ta be kidding…

    I came, I saw, …I laughed out loud…

    Sopy
    ___
    Comic relief; “The Mute Button?”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BZi1wN6Nbc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    Bonus: The Who – “Won’t Get Fooled Again?”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwS1tC9Mp00&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    -

    Some ‘table-talk’ :
    http://whytheology.wordpress.com/2013/11/27/plagiarism-is-a-kingdom-issue/
    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2013/11/mark-driscoll-and-janet-mefferd.html

    http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2013/11/if-the-top-men-take-over-who-w.php

    Already mentioned:
    http://jonathanmerritt.religionnews.com/2013/11/22/mark-driscoll-accused-plagiarism-radio-host/

    ;~)

    -

  139. Someone on a friend’s FB said that Christians shouldn’t publicly call out and “try to humiliate” each other, which is apparently what Mefferd did in this person’s opinion. Headdesk. I still can’t understand the reasoning behind the idea that Christian leaders can’t be publicly called out, either from a Biblical perspective or a free speech perspective. I’m also not sure it counts as “humiliation” to expose an action that might present legal problems.

    The funnier one was the person who said that, well, most Christian authors borrow ideas from each other anyway. 14 pages? 14 pages? That’s a little more than “borrowing” if it turns out to be true.

  140. Pingback: Further Evidence Emerges of Mark Driscoll Plagiarism | Christian Book Shop Talk UNITED STATES

  141. Casey wrote:

    I can tell you though this plegarism is something I am sure that they can work out between them. Since there is nothing new unde the sun I really don’t get all this.

    Murder, incest, robbery, and graft are not new under the sun, either. Nor is “getting caught” and “consequences”. Plagiarism is a crime because it takes for one’s own that which belongs to someone else. It is a form of theft. When a leader robs, it is a huge problem.

    Plus, because it was done in a book for public consumption, it is not the kind of thing that can be settled privately. It is out there already, across the nation. Even if there was a recall, some copies will remain as is. That the publishing company is shmoozing it shows a serious lack of integrity. That so many in the church think it’s ok exposes the moral caliber of the community and that is very sad.

    This is not difficult, Casey.

    I feel like the professor in Lion, Witch, and Wardrobe, “I wonder what they DO teach them at these schools [churches]?”

  142. Fraud in the sciences, including plagiarism of text, images and data, is an recognized problem and scientific publishing has procedures for detecting and rectifying such incidents. Others in these comments have also indicated some of the concerns academic publishing has with fraud. I’ve provided some examples of fraud in and the science approach to dealing with it in a different back alley in Christendom in a guest post: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/12/10/fraud-in-science-are-some-young-earth-proponents-being-disingenuous/ Why doesn’t Christian publishing similarly acknowledge the sinfulness of man and institute some appropriate checks and controls?

  143. Nicholas:

    A bit complacent in my view. They are saying ‘after this review (the one they indicated they did) we feel confident that the content in question has been properly cited’ but they don’t explain why. If experienced press editors think it is plagiarism they need to produce an argument rather than just state it isn’t plagiarism.

    Ultimately this story may be about Tyndale House Publishers if they don’t handle this correctly. The material is there for all to see, so if there is plagiarism and it is not acknowledged then this could be a big problem for their credibility in the long term. It may also make people conflicted when buying their books and other authors may not get read.

    Also there is irony about what the book is about – the decline of Christianity and Christian ethics in Western Civilization and what to do about it – so is this creeping into Christian publishing ethics as well?

    I am beginning to think Martin Luther had a point when he sparked the reformation.

  144. The booklet Trial about 1 & 2 Peter is, unusually a copyright owned by Mars Hill Church. The booklet was distributed to members and attenders and was not sold, which might be (and is) a key detail some supporters might bring up as a basis from which to say there was no plagiarism at all. Tall Skinny Kiwi has written today and states that Mark Driscoll would not intentionally plagiarize. Whether or not plagiarism cases stand or fall on the intent to plagiarize is some topic that can be left to others on Thanksgiving day. :)

  145. I’m a PhD candidate and teach in the humanities at a university in Canada. While cases of ignorance are usually treated less harshly than clearly intentional plagiarism, ignorance of the rules about academic integrity is not an excuse and the student is very likely to fail the paper or have a significant reduction in the grade if caught plagiarizing. Intentional plagiarism usually results in a 0 on the assignment (first offense; sometimes you will fail the course if the first case is bad enough), failing the course (second offense), or expulsion (third offense). Students who plagiarize also have a notification put on their transcripts. It disappears after graduation for first offenders, but is permanent for repeat offenders.

    Mark Driscoll, Tyndale, and co: there is NO excuse for this. I was always suspicious of the sheer number of books (regardless of their banality, to which Mefford’s excerpts attest) that Mark Driscoll manages to publish (given his intellectual capacity and busy schedule). It is starting to make more sense. If he can’t follow the rules that my 20 year old students must follow, he should be forced to self publish alongside amateur ufologists, big foot enthusiasts, and the like.

    I would dearly love to see Mark’s university transcripts.

  146. Pam wrote:

    I have to say, I’ve been writing academic papers and my thesis and had to sign forms that everything I write is my own work and that all quotes and sources are properly attributed.

    Obviously you are not a CELEBRITY(TM) CHRISTIAN(TM) GIGACHURCH PASTOR.

    It’s actually disturbing how blase Driscoll and his supporters and publisher seem to be about this, and it really reflects terribly on their integrity to act as if plagiarism doesn’t matter.

    Well, when you’re personally benefiting from it, why kill the goose before it can lay you more golden eggs? It’s All About The Benjamins, Baby. Just this time it comes justified with God-Talk.

  147. oldJohnJ wrote:

    Why doesn’t Christian publishing similarly acknowledge the sinfulness of man and institute some appropriate checks and controls?

    Because they’re BORN-AGAIN, New Creatures In Christ, Under The Blood, bla bla bla So That Makes It Okay.

    “I THANK THEE, LOORD, THAT I AM NOTHING LIKE THOSE HEATHEN PUBLISHERS OVER THERE…”

  148. Hester wrote:

    The funnier one was the person who said that, well, most Christian authors borrow ideas from each other anyway. 14 pages? 14 pages? That’s a little more than “borrowing” if it turns out to be true.

    For the past two years, my forays into writing have been co-writing My Little Pony fan fiction, and the fanfic community is on the complete other end of the bell curve from academia when it comes to plagiarism. (After all, they’re bootlegging derivative works in the first place. Fortunately Hasbro/Hub has been a good sport about it so long as it’s not actually done as a commercial venture.)

    Much less rigorous on the subject, plus carrying on the old-school SF authors’ tradition of writing each other into your work, little in-jokes and references and pastiches and the like.

    But even in the fanfic environment Fourteen Pages Word-for-Word is way too much.

  149. @Dr.X:
    Amen, brother. So much junk is published today by so-called Christian publishers. Very little is useful. For the record, there ARE legitimate Christian (and religiously I affiliated but Bible-related) scholarly journals that function like the medical journals you mention. ETS, SBL, ASOR, etc publish original research by non-paid scholars seeking to advance our knowledge of Scripture and it’s context. Mark Driscoll is not a part of that world nor is he remotely qualified to be.

    @Eagle: I have access to DA Carson’s syllabi from his Trinity classes. Very clear warnings about plagiarism. I agree with you that the EFCA and Trinity should be wary of connections with the Neo-Reformed camp.

    @Peter: I have a seminary friend who worked for Docent. Sweet gig for a seminary guy. Paid well. Strict confidentiality clauses. Basically researched and wrote content for big name pastors to put in their sermons. Occasionally wrote whole sermons, I believe. Many big name pastors don’t do much sermon prep if their own. Too busy at conferences and on media tours? That friend now works at Mecca, I mean Mars Hill in Seattle.

  150. Mr H. Interesting points.

    The Driscoll books possibly wouldn’t be read much but for his celebrity status and charisma. I read the Resurgence – some interesting facts but no real emotional intelligence or new ideas – quite a bit of ranting and diatribe. I am sure it suits his followers who will love reading it, so I can recommend it to this audience.

  151. @ Peter:

    Agreed; nor would he be rated as a teacher, much less an authority on doctrine. If he had only stuck to leading – acting as a rallying-point to drive projects forward – then he could have been a great blessing to the church. Instead, he’s a great distraction.

    Leadership is a dangerous gift to have. If people will follow you, eventually you’ll have the opportunity to surround yourself with yes-men who will call you whatever you want to be called.

  152. @ TW:
    @ Deb:

    Listening to this now.

    Yup, can of worms, indeed.

    As I listen I remember my first encounters with Driscollites. They said several things to try to make me stand in awe of his brilliance along side them. One of those things they said was to point out how “well read” he was.

    Okay. So he read a lot of books.

    He’s just not good at citing and footnoting them when he’s writing his own books. It’s easier for him to let people believe that these are his own thoughts, that he really is this brilliant and deserves your worship.

    Mefferd is right. We cannot allow ‘leaders’ in the church get away with stuff we don’t let Joe Schmoe get away with.

  153. I just came across this short book and it looks interesting:

    “The Problem of the Gifted Speaker” by Stephen C. Perks

    Free download – http://www.kuyper.org/storage/documents/The%20Problem%20of%20the%20Gifted%20Speaker.pdf

    This from the preface:
    “ONE of the serious problems facing the Church in the Western world today is the problem posed by the “ministry” of those who are considered “gifted speakers” and consequently idolised by the Church. Stated in its most simple form this is the problem posed by the prioritizing of the personality, charisma, “profile,” popularity, stage presence and ability of the speaker as an orator and entertainer over the content of the message being delivered—in short, the triumph of style over content, the consequence of which has been the creation of an intellectually feeble-minded and theologically malnourished generation of churchgoers who are over stimulated by sentimental and mindless entertainment worship masquerading as spiritual edification.”

  154. @ TW:

    That pretty much sums up what we are seeing in much of Christendom in the US today. The other disturbing fact is that these particular speakers, along with their audiences, don’t recognize the issue. They just want more of the same.

  155. Pingback: Mefferd Reveals Third Occurrence of Driscoll Plagiarism | Thou Art The Man UNITED STATES

  156. @ Bridget

    One of Mark Driscoll’s attacks in his interview with Justin Brierley on the UK national Christian radio station, Premier Radio, was that there are no young celebrity pastors (oh yes.. and he called pastors in the UK liars and cowards, which didn’t go down very well, but that is another story).

    Since then we haven’t seen anything of him – he didn’t appear in an flagship leadership conference in London in this year, whereas he would have been an obvious choice.His profile has plummeted.

    The only group still interested in him is Newfrontiers, who regarded him originally as a bit of hero. Terry Virgo still has a picture on his website of him being interviewed. Adrian Warnock, the Newfrontiers blogger, has posted positive reviews of his books but there is no post about Resurgence. In his last post about Driscoll he covered the Strangefire conference gate-crashing, attempting to put Driscoll’s side of the story but got panned by Newfrontier people, most of whom have broken ranks and openly criticise Driscoll. I imagine the knowledge that he is accused of plagiarism could be the last straw.

  157. @ Deb:

    I posted a link to Wartburg Watch a day or two ago with the Tyndale house response someone originally posted to Twitter,

    In that response, Tyndale is defending Driscoll, at least on the first book. They said his low level of citation meets “market place standards.”

    If Mefferd keeps dripping out more and more examples of Driscoll copying, I don’t know how long they can sit there in denial mode, hanging on to the “Nothing to see here folks, move along!” mentality.

    Nothing to See Here!

  158. @Daisy:

    Agreed! It will be interesting to see if Tyndale has the maturity to rescind their earlier defense of Driscoll. I know that the 1&2 Peter booklet wasn’t published by Tyndale, but it was such a blatant instance of plagiarism and copyright violation that it’s got to make Tyndale nervous.

    I’d also be nervous if I were Driscoll’s past publishers…it’s like roulette to see which of his past books have plagiarism in them…

    So sad. I’m especially upset at what kind of message this sends non-believers. Driscoll has made much of his ministry to well-educated professionals in the Seattle area…a failure of this magnitude in the area of intellectual and academic integrity will not be conducive to ministry among university students and faculty.

  159. @ Mr.H:

    Agreed with everything you wrote.

    I also find it sad that Tyndale House has lower standards of copying stuff than most community colleges / 4 yr colleges do.

    Or high schools. The teachers in the public high schools I went to taught us about proper citation.

    How is it that Non Christian groups (colleges and so on) have stricter, higher policies about copying than a Christian publisher???

  160. Mr.H wrote:

    ’m especially upset at what kind of message this sends non-believers.

    P.S.
    Not just non believers, but people like me who were Christians since childhood who are teetering on becoming Non- Christian.

    It’s stuff like this (in addition to other things) that are pushing me towards agnosticism.

    Seeing that so many Christians are not upholding the faith, the One they claim to follow and His teachings, makes me wonder if the whole thing is a joke, or if it’s a joke to people who claim Christ – if it’s a joke to them, why should I live by the rules and take it all seriously?

    It’s like people who claim to be Christian are not be taking Christianity seriously, so why should I?

    I do see a small number of self professing Christians (such as Deb and Dee, and some of you here) who are living the faith, and that does help.

    I wish I saw more of it from more Christians.

  161. @ Daisy:

    So sorry, Daisy. It can be very difficult not to doubt when those who claim to speak and act for God do and say horrible things.

    I always try and consider how Jesus would respond. In this case, I don’t think Jesus would agree with Driscoll.

  162. Pingback: Talk Show Host Adds to Plagiarism Charge Against Mark Driscoll, Tyndale Responds | Thinking Out Loud UNITED STATES

  163. Mara wrote:

    As I listen I remember my first encounters with Driscollites. They said several things to try to make me stand in awe of his brilliance along side them.

    Just like Objectivists saying things to make you stand in awe of Ayn Rand, “The only Truly Rational Mind who ever lived.”

    Or Scientologists saying things to make you stand in awe of L Ron Hubbard, “The Bridge to Total Freedom”.

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  165. Pingback: On plagerism, tone, and tribalism | Stand Up for the Truth

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