If you're playing a poker game and you look around the table and and can't tell who the sucker is, it's you. Paul Newman link
In an effort to keep you informed on a number of stories, we will be posting brief updates on developments surrounding these events. (There is a lot going on!) This post involves a peripheral account in the James MacDonald debt controversy.Thank you to our readers who keep us posted on these events. You guys are great!
Our main post today will be a truly fascinating analysis Elevation baptisms.
In the past couple of days, TWW has received several comments about the article we did on the gambling behavior of Jerry Jenkins here. I wondered what was up. Obviously, there was trouble brewing and I surmised we would be hearing about it soon.The commenters asked why I believed gambling is a sin. They missed my point.
Here is my response to one of those comments.
Carl wrote:
And again…is gambling inherently sinful?
(Dee) I do not know why you keep asking this question. It is obvious from the posts about James MacDonald that there is a concern about his gambling habits. People with gambling issues also tend to have money issues. There are money issues with James MacDonald that have been raised by his former elders.
Since I am somewhat familiar with compulsive behavior, I raised the possibility if these two items: the debt and the gambling, might be linked. Jenkins, bless his heart, has confirmed that he has been to Vegas with MacDonald and that they gambled or, to appease you, played games of skill.
This issue has nothing to do with sin and is merely raised as a question of potential compulsive behavior. I only raised Jenkins name since it corroborated the concern of MacDonald’s gambling.
Lets try another tact.
I do not think drinking alcohol is a sin unless one is routinely getting drunk. However, if someone is drinking in excess amounts so that people raise questions then one should consider the possibility of alcoholism or pre-alcoholic behavior.
If I were to write a post in which a pastor was having some monetary issues and was also seen to be drinking to excess routinely, I might raise the question of an issue that needs to be considered. To keep harping on the question if drinking alcohol is a sin would not be addressing the point.
So, 3 to 1 odds you will not like this answer.
Little did I know that, several days ago, Jerry Jenkins apologized for his gambling, stating that he will no longer visit casinos. Again, my interest in this question has to do with Jenkins' close relationship with MacDonald and the fact that the two of them have been seen gambling together.
We thank our good friends at The Elephant Debt for allowing us to reprint from their website. TWW admires the work they do to analyze the issues of a church that continues to mean so much to them. This letter appeared in the comments under this post.
Jerry B. Jenkins says:
November 8, 2013 at 1:15 am
"My comments to Moody Bible Institute staff and faculty, Wednesday, October 30, 2013:
Forgive me for reading to you today, but I tend to grow emotional when I talk about Moody, and I want to be sure to include everything I want to say.
I have been part of the Moody family for more than 40 years and have often said that serving Christ here has been the proudest association of my life. I began as a student right out of high school, then returned and became editor of Moody Magazine 39 years ago this week. I eventually retired as Vice President for Publishing. I have been privileged to serve as a member of the Board of Trustees for 13 years, the past five as chairman.
I am here today to ask your forgiveness. A few years ago I began playing poker in my home with friends and family. On occasion I played the same game in casinos. I never played alone, and while my pastor and my accountability partners were aware of it, I have come to see that playing publicly was an error in judgment in a matter of Christian liberty.
Not wanting to make an issue of this for those whose consciences might have differed from mine on it, I did not make it public or, as the Apostle Paul cautions, “flaunt [my] liberty.’”
However, seeing how it’s having been made public has wounded some in the Moody family, I want you to know that I will never patronize a casino again.
This is a commitment I make willingly, surrendering what I considered a personal freedom for the sake of serving Christ with you, my Moody family.
There are few worse feelings than knowing you have disappointed people you care about. Please forgive me for offending you and for my failure to give the reputation of Moody the priority it deserves.
While, as [board vice chairman] Berv Peterson has said, until now the board has not been required to adhere to the Employee Standards, as a former employee who followed those standards for many years, I should have recognized that you would assume we were all on the same page in these matters. I’m sorry for disappointing you that way.
As President Nyquist has led us into a new season of liberty with the revised Employee Standards, I pray that the impact of my failure to keep the reputation of Moody ahead of my personal freedom will serve as an example to us all in our lifestyle choices—where the highest good is not our freedom but rather the impact our actions have upon those we seek to reach and serve.
Now let me speak to a comment from the recent article which brought all this to light. In a poor attempt to dissuade the reporter from a presumptive question about my having played for “high stakes,” I made a callous and insensitive remark [the “pocket change” comment] that does not represent my heart, and I ask your forgiveness for that as well.
For the many years I worked at Moody, Dianna and I raised our family more than 50 miles from here, because that was where we could afford to live. I understand the sacrifices you make to work here, the second jobs and the tough choices it takes to make ends meet. In Psalm 62:10 we are instructed that “if riches increase, do not set your heart upon them.”
When the Left Behind series changed our financial picture, Dianna and I did not set our hearts on riches but were overjoyed to be able to give to Moody in a way we never dreamed possible. I deeply regret that my careless comment appeared so disrespectful to the God-honoring sacrifices you make every day to serve this great ministry. Please forgive my thoughtless words.
I ask for your grace and mercy and prayer as I and the other members of the board of trustees pledge to live by the same biblical standards you live by. My prayer is that even greater unity and commitment to the kingdom will be the outcome of my painful lesson. Thank you for letting me speak to you from my heart today."
I’m 60 cents ahead at the Vegas slot machines. [ Factually true ]
This is an interesting topic, isn’t it, how people engage themselves with money? I’m referring to those who profess Christ. The Bible uses the example of money above all other examples to warn about the source of evil and living according to the dictates of an alternative Master.
I see it all the time: people who seem primarily motivated to glorify God in their lives but use that as a cover to hide what really makes them tick. Money. Making money. Accumulating wealth. Hoping to get rich quick. And they’ll say they’ll use their big gains and/or winnings to do something to really contribute to advancing the Kingdom. Because money, well, it’s just so powerful….and it’s just so GOOD. Or is it…?
God’s Word beats a full house any day.
Evie wrote:
Jesus and the disciples seemed to spread the gospel quite well without the concern for money. Jesus had an interesting conversation with a rich young man about money/wealth as well.
As a Moody grad, and very aware of their standards (some, thankfully, revised!), I respect Jerry’s apology and realization that what may be okay for some can be truly upsetting to others, particularly a place like Moody where there are several generations of alumni. In my personal life, I will often forgo an activity that is not necessarily “wrong”, but, in a certain context, could be a huge issue for fellow believers. For example, I am part of a church with many recovering alcoholics, and Friday night drinks at the bar just doesn’t work for them. Even if I am enjoying a Diet Coke, I wouldn’t be sending the correct message.
Oh brother was that “apology” full of all sorts of things.
I used to be poor (but now I am not and I forgot about all you peasants working 2 jobs)
I made a callous comment about “pocket change” that did not represent my heart. (Then how did it make it’s way out of your mouth and why did it take public pressure for you to say that?)
I have given lots to Moody when I became stinking rich from playing on the fears and romantisizing a rapture. (So my money keeps you in a job and I could have given more but the casino beckoned.
Please. These guys are just too much.
Actually, Jerry Jenkins apologizes for being SEEN playing poker in a casino.
What kind of pastor and accountability partners are not savvy enough to warn JJ that his behavior, liberty or not, would come back and bit him in the —–?
@ Nancy:
that would be “bite” not “bit”
I do have to say…I have respect for Jerry Jenkins popping up on The Elephant’s Debt and issuing an apology. That takes courage.
Has anything like that happened on SGM Survivors? Has Jeff Purswell, CJ Mahnaey, Dave Harvey, the Senior Pastor at Sovereign Grace Fairfax, or many other SGM or former SG pastors… popped up there and apologized and took a sincere effort to right the wrong?
No…
So I do respect Jenkins for taking that act.
As for money I have my own confession. As a model train nerd I have often joked about “the local hobby shop” (Since everything with the Neo-Cals is local…I guess that applies to local businesses also! 😛 ) getting direct deposit. But I will admit if its Milwaukee Road, Northern Pacific, Great Northern, or Montana Rail Link…I’m screwed! And that’s where some of my money goes. HUG has his ponies and I have my trians! 😛 But you will read about some of this in the near future and how it built a relationship that helped me during my faith crisis and allowed a long conversation to continue.
To be honest, I think we need to between playing poker and “gambling” as a blanket. There is a huge difference between craps, which essentially pure luck (and yes, I know how to bet a three point Molly), and poker, which is a game of significant skill, has a buy in price, and has a payout (in tournament rules, obviously cash games are different). I say this because while card playing has a social stigma, it doesn’t vary so much from bull riding or nascar. You pay an entry fee, you have the chance to win, and there is significant risk outside your control. The only difference is that very few poker players get stepped on by a half-ton bull or hit a barrier at 160 mph. To be honest, I am more concerned with Jenkins hanging out with MacDonald than I am about him slinging the paste-boards!
I do have this to say about JJ to his credit, however. He did earn the money and presumably pay taxes on it, unlike some of the pastor types and their shenanigans.
Nancy
Agreed. I am changing the title, forthwith.
Nancy wrote:
As in “apologizes for Getting Caught”?
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Or beating the war drums for invading Iran like some fundagelical nutbags have been doing as of late.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
If all he and MacDonald are doing is recreation, then I don’t care what they do (within limits of course.) But when JJ and LaHaye hang out and blur the lines between literary genres, I have concerns. Literary genres in this case being fantasy, survivalism and prophesy. And he did say that the money from the Left Behind series was what changed his life. What he does with his money is minimal compared to what he does/did with people’s minds/hopes/faith. So here we have somebody who plays the dispensationalist/fundamentalist game (for money) and then does not play that game when he feels that it violates his liberty. Is two-faced the word for that?
Poker really is a game of skill. One is not a better christian is they live by a bunch of unnecessary rules. But if talent or opportunity or God put a pen in your hand, then there is some real responsibility that comes with that.
And of these things I have said (poker player, wealthy, writer, fundamentalist, liver-by-the-rules) I am none of the these and have no personal dog in this fight. Just saying.
I find Moody Bible to be a fascinating school. I could be wrong…but it seems to me that many seminaries are built and created to support a denomination. For example..SBTS is designed to create pastors for the SBC. Trinity in Deerfield, Il is designed to create pastors and support the Evangelical Free Church of America. Moody seems to be independent, though from what I have read it has roots in the 19th century “revivalist” tradition.
For that reason I would think Moody has a strong incentive not to associate with any denomination or pastors who are deeply controversial. At some point James MacDonald and Harvest Bible Chapel are going to have their tipping point. You cannot be $64 million dollars in debt and not have creditors beating at the door. At some point its going to collapse. Financially it will have to…and that will probably become more likely with people leaving HBC. It will be interesting to see what happens in Neo-Cal circles when it comes falling down. The largest bankruptcy in evangelcalism perhaps? That will be a testimant to faith! But seriously what will the Mark Driscoll’s and Matt Chandler’s do? What will it say about Driscoll’s and Chandler’s discernment? They have a lot to lose in this and it will make Neo-Cal look even more ugly…which it already is.
But getting back to Moody if they are close to HBC, and are financial intertwined than the collapse of HBC could pose a threat to Moody. I would think it would be in the school’s interests to distance themself from as far as possible from James MacDonald and HBC. Moody is going to risk its credibility and reputation by associating with James MacDonald. If I went to Moody or I was an alumnus I would be asking questions like crazy.
Eagle wrote:
Hmm….they may collectively choose to do what some ‘interested’ other ministers did with my former pastor and bail him out. It is another method of covering up problems. This is, however, much more public than my church was, so that would make this option trickier. But…they are narcissistic enough to think they could get away with it.
Dee,
The formatting of the response in italics makes it hard to tell who said what. Maybe you could change it to make it easier to follow.
I appreciated the sincerity of the apology but often wonder if it would have happened had the article not been written. Today we see so many people jump on the “Christian liberty” bandwagon as an excuse to follow behavior that in the past would never cross their mind. Just like many secular and Christian leaders the public scrutiny often brings about response that at times is genuine and at times “politically expedient” to put out the fire.
Hopefully, Jerry will continue to bring a different lens to his personal decisions just like each one of us needs to do on a daily basis.
You can’t have a thread about gambling without including this:
The Gambler sung by Kenny Rogers
🙂
Hmmm. I’m not sure what to think. I suppose it’s hard to do things in private if you’re a public figure. I’ve heard it said that gambling is “an illegitimate appeal to God’s grace”, and heard someone answer that with, “no, it’s just a game.”
Should he have apologized? I’m not sure. Should I apologize to my church for taking $20 when I was on a cruise ship, considering it my entertainment for the night, putting it in slot machines and coming out with $200? Or should I apologize for the next night when I took another $20 of my entertainment budget, put it in the same slot machines, and lost it all in 10 minutes?
I have no idea what was in the Employee Standards, or what is in the revised Employee Standards. But if he violated standards to which he agreed, yep, he should apologize and resign. He can still give money even if he’s no longer on a board.
BUT, if he was not bound by agreeing to those standards, maybe he should’ve just kept quiet.
Who wins in this situation? It’s a crapshoot…
@ Eagle:
But what if your ex-poker (gambling) buddy is on the board at Moody? IF HBC goes to financial ruin, one could get on the faculty or teaching program and stay on the conference and book release circuit.
@ Nickname: The point in this whole thing has to do with his gambling buddy and that is why it caught my attention. I have been to Vegas and had some fun with the slots. I lost just under $2.00 for the evening. A cheap date.
However, I was with my husband and he does not have a gambling problem. Jenkins was running around with MacDonald who has a money problem in terms of his church system. It is most unwise for people who already have serious money issues to spend time gambling. In fact, it could indicate a deeper problem.
Also, Moody has a close relationship with HBC. Is it really wise to be gambling together when there is an issue in one of the ministries? I do not think so. People were raising questions about MacDonald’s gambling. It seems rather ridiculous, in the midst of this crisis, to skip off to Vegas.
@ dee: I have a feeling this is why he apologized. Note he did not say gambling was a sin. Neither did I.
Eagle wrote:
I know this is off-topic, but your comment got my attention.
Lately I’ve taken up a day planner “hobby.” I was intrigued by a few YouTube videos, and then discovered a whole community on the web of day planner enthusiasts. The Philofaxy blog is a good place to start.
I noticed that I started accomplishing so many things that I’ve let fall by the wayside in my own faith crisis. I thought it was the planner that helped me be more organized. But now, I think maybe I needed something that I simply enjoy doing to help pull me out of my “funk.”
By the way, my boys inherited an old Kato model N electric train set from their grandpa with Santa Fe, Great Northern, Union Pacific, and Southern Pacific cars. 🙂
@ dee:
Aha. Though I read the part about MacDonald and knew about his money problems and his gambling, I was scratching my head over Jenkins’ apology.
If you have a buddy who’s an alcoholic, it’s not a good idea to be taking him to bars. If your best friend has a gambling problem, don’t give him a ride to a casino. If your buddy has a gambling problem AND a huge money problem, and you went gambling with him, and you need to do something to protect the integrity of the institution with which you’re connected — an apology is a good thing. Unless you’re planning to retract the apology like Mahaney did. (Come to think of it — his was probably the first and I hope only apology retraction I’ve ever known.)
I hear that Baptists are waving to each other in casinos these days. I have a relative who occasionally drinks, but serves on the board of a Baptist university. He signed a pledge that says he won’t be seen in bars, etc., and he takes that seriously. He doesn’t believe that being in a bar is wrong — but he doesn’t want to send a message that might be misinterpreted as licentious. I thought the whole pledge thing was ridiculous, but respected him for sticking to it.
There was a time when an evangelical Christian would not darken the door of a bar or casino or even allow a deck of cards in the house. I hope these guys are steering clear of ‘gentlemen’s’ clubs!
@ Nickname:
An excellent observation.
How tight is Moody with Harvest? If you are a student at Moody and you tell them you go to Harvest, you will get an automatic 10% reduction in your school bill. Don’t believe it? Call and ask them yourselves.
@ Dan: That is why I believed this apology from Jenkins was significant.
Eagle, great to know there is another train nerd on the site, and looking forward to hearing your story. Maybe we should start a support group! More of a narrow gauge fan myself.
I once had a pastor explain to me (during a layover at the Las Vegas airport) that gambling was OK within reason, because the apostles cast lots to replace Judas with Matthias. I wonder if that text is prescriptive or descriptive, because we never hear of Matthias again.
@ Gary:
Besides, casting lots was deemed a method for allowing the HS to select among the candidates, rather than a random event. And there was no money on the table. So that is a different event than gambling.
Eagle wrote:
And if a tentative project with the local Rail Bronies actually gets going, we might be able to merge the two in On30.
This sort of behaviour is more prevelant than you might think (gambling, drinking, etc..)
I used to work for what used to be a major Christian Music company and for a chain of local Christian bookstores before that ( around 22 years in the CBA industry). I’ve seen quite a lot of unbecoming habits and unethical behaviour at Christian Industry Events.
I have seen people drunk, flirt, smoke cigars, and talk about sexually explicit topics, brought their gay partner, etc… at Christian Industry events that included authors, artists and many of the major movers and shakers in the Christian industry.
Some of which that have come to public disgrace in recent years. Others that surely will…
I have met scam artists who eneded up in Federal prison at Industry events. There are way more wolves than sheep when the money is flowing. If the ministry budget is big, you can almost bet your last dollar that some sort of funny business is going down.
Thanks for very good post and i wish you and for all here good and happy life. Thanks.
Jenkins did not apologize for “gambling,” he did not apologize for being seen “gambling,” and in fact he has denied “gambling.” You can mock it all you want, but it is simply true, but in common sense and in many cases by law, that poker does not fall under the category of “gambling.”
As you’ve said, gambling isn’t inherently a sin anyway, but several articles, including the tabloid E-Debt, keep speaking of Jenkins’s and MacDonald’s “gambling” as if it’s a previously established fact, when it isn’t. At least acknowledge that there’s significant disagreement about poker as gambling, with those who’ve never played it and don’t know much about it on the “gambling” side, those who’ve played it and know what they’re talking about on the “it’s not gambling” side, including several state statutes.
Tony wrote:
Yes he did. Please go to this link for his statement.
http://theelephantsdebt.com/2013/10/18/world-magazine-reports-on-jerry-jenkins-gambling-with-james-macdonald-and-connects-this-story-to-the-elephants-debt/
I am here today to ask your forgiveness. A few years ago I began playing poker in my home with friends and family. On occasion I played the same game in casinos. I never played alone, and while my pastor and my accountability partners were aware of it, I have come to see that playing publicly was an error in judgment in a matter of Christian liberty.
Not wanting to make an issue of this for those whose consciences might have differed from mine on it, I did not make it public or, as the Apostle Paul cautions, “flaunt [my] liberty.’”
However, seeing how it’s having been made public has wounded some in the Moody family, I want you to know that I will never patronize a casino again.
This is a commitment I make willingly, surrendering what I considered a personal freedom for the sake of serving Christ with you, my Moody family.
There are few worse feelings than knowing you have disappointed people you care about. Please forgive me for offending you and for my failure to give the reputation of Moody the priority it deserves.