This is what passes for spiritual leadership….. sadly. I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they have “left their first love”, but I just don’t know. There have always been imposters and Paul warned us about them. There is nothing new under the sun.

The Jezebel “spirit” of Scripture manifested itself through manipulation, intimidation, and domination. Isn’t that what Driscoll has done his entire ministry?

Max,

I was thinking the same thing!
Anywhere Mark Driscoll is, there is a Jezebel spirit.

Concerning Driscoll ranting about the sword swallower…. Ha! I think Driscoll may just be jealous!
He does not have, nor has he ever had, the talent … or the physique! Driscoll may have been pushing his book, but I think he was trying to upstage Magdala. How is a conceited blowhard like Driscoll supposed to follow an act like that??? (With a humble heart? NOT.)
Hmmmmm, maybe Driscoll should have just asked Chuck Norris if he could pretty-please-with-sugar-on-top JUST SIT INSIDE the tank and pretend he’s driving it for a minute.

You know, I don’t *care* that Mark Driscoll doesn’t believe the “Jezebel spirit” has its roots in good old American racism. Because it DOES.

https://jimcrowmuseum.ferris.edu/jezebel/index.htm

Plus the mentions of Jezebel in the Bible are to (a) the wife of King Ahab in the Old Testament or (b) a woman described as a false prophetess in Revelation 2:20. At no time is a “Jezebel spirit” mentioned; this is something that was made up to go after women who may have crossed church men. And it likely has its roots in Southern racism towards Black women–but hey, this is a suggestion for someone’s future Master’s thesis tracing it through.

I think Driscoll is apparently making bank on this whole business, which is why he’s pursuing it. It kind of reminds me of when he and James MacDonald went to John MacArthur’s anti-Pentecostal conference and passed out copies of a book. But I am INFURIATED that Driscoll attacked a guy who was just doing his job (the acrobatic sword swallower). Now others are attacking that guy and saying he’s not a Christian.

Oh yeah, I don’t know why churches have to have these Man Cave or Tea Party conferences for men or women. *waves hands* I just don’t get it.

Driscoll is beginning to sound unhinged to me.

I don’t think he was ever “hinged”, if you know what I mean. Attention, adulation and things he made up to serve his needs of the moment have always been more important to him than any form of truth he would have a hard time recognizing.

Here is a brief definition and timeline of usage of the phrase from the revised Oxford English Dictionary-
“ An immoral, impudent, or sexually promiscuous woman; (esp. in earlier use) a woman who leads other people into idolatry and sin (see Revelation 2:20); a prostitute or disreputable woman, esp. one who wears cosmetics, fine clothes, etc. Also figurative.
Often modified by painted.

In quot. 1558 the word refers back to ‘our mischeuous Maryes’: see etymological note.
1558 He hath raised vp these Iesabelles to be the vttermoste of his plagues.
J. Knox, First Blast of against Monstruous Regiment of Women f. 41vCitation details for J. Knox, First Blast of against Monstruous Regiment of Women

1644 Whoever is on Gods side, let him downe with that Jezebel of Rome, downe with her Idolatries and superstitions, [etc.].
J. Leech, St Pauls Challenge 22Citation details for J. Leech, St Pauls Challenge

1711A Jezebel..appears constantly dress’d at her Sash, and has a thousand little Tricks and Fooleries to attract the Eyes of all the idle young Fellows.
E. Budgell, Spectator No. 175. ⁋2Citation details for E. Budgell, Spectator

1797 Letting a tribe of shabroons and painted jezebels into their honest house.
A. M. Bennett, Beggar Girl vol. I. ii. 34Citation details for A. M. Bennett, Beggar Girl

1891 Oh! you abandoned Jezebel!
S. Mostyn, Curatica 113Citation details for S. Mostyn, Curatica

1948 Down on Commercial Street..bright-eyed Jezebels lurked on balconies, holding their sheer kimonos loosely about them and calling to men below in a dozen tongues.
L. Wendt & H. Kogan, Bet a Million! iii. 39Citation details for L. Wendt & H. Kogan, Bet a Million!

2003 They detected a Jezebel spirit in any woman who dared to open her mouth and express an opinion.
M. Ford, Mem. Misfit xix. 125Citation details for M. Ford, Mem. Misfit

2018 We are left to imagine the terms under which a black woman would be auctioned, likely as a docile Mammy, fiery Sapphire, or sexualized Jezebel.
Slate Magazine (Nexis) 18 July”

The last two are particularly indicative of (male) attitudes.

“images of a “Transgender Affirmation” coloring book for children and other pornographically-themed material.”

Wait, what? “Other pornographically themed material?” Since when is acknowledging trans people pornographic? I’m not sure if the writer of the linked post is saying this or if Driscoll said it and they just didn’t attribute it clearly.

If it was Driscoll, unsurprising, since the most pornographically themed thing in his vicinity is probably inside his skull. His self-owning comments sexualizing an acrobatic performer show that. Frankly, I’d rather buy a case of those coloring books than anything Driscoll (‘s ghostwriter) wrote.

For James River Church to close would be a blessing to the community. IMHO that is.

In Dee’s post, John Lindell says, in reference to Driscoll: “It seems demonic to me ……”.

Well, in this instance, I can’t help but agree with Lindell. Methinks Driscoll was projecting.
Given Driscoll’s history and reputation, maybe he’s the one with the “Jezebel spirit”.

CMT,

I’ve read it claimed that historic incorporation of religious language into public life in US should be thought of as “ceremonial Deism”.

Maybe our material displays (the Washington Monument also comes to mind) shoudl be thought of as “ceremonial Asherahism”. Our Founders were hard men.

Samuel Conner: OTOH, perhaps the pole could be interpreted as a form of celebration of America masculinity.

“MINE’S BIGGER THAN YOURS!!!!!”
(Unzip and Whip it out)

As for Asherah poles, take a look at this incredible pole dancer at AGT. It is not what you think. Mark-it’s called entertainment!

NOT IF YOU HAVE A REALLLY DIRTY MIND!
If you have a mind as Dirty as Dee Tee Driscoll’s track record, even paint drying on a wall would be Disgustingly Pornographic.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I think that your statement combined with Driscoll’s heresy gives me leeway to alter my previous statement and say that “anywhere Mark Driscoll is, there is a Nabal spirit”.
Nabal means “fool” in Hebrew. Ha!

Deep Throat Driscoll does not have a Jezebel OR Nabal Spirit.
More like an ASHERAH Spirit.

“Asherah” being the Jewish name for the main SEX Goddess of all the Middle-Eastern Fertility Cults that surrounded the ancient Jews. And as happened under Queen Jezebel herself, often infiltrated and influenced the Jews’ de facto folk religion.

Mara R: Fun fact. The original Greek work that we get Pornography from is the same Greek word we get fornication. Take that as you will.

So, in our day, Paul would be writing that since there is so much MD-style preaching, every man should have his own wife?

CMT: “images of a “Transgender Affirmation” coloring book for children and other pornographically-themed material.”

More proof that the Wokies are as detached from reality as the Christians at the Stronger Man’s Conference.
Or never mind The Matrix, we’re all living in one long episode of South Park.
Or both.

Forgive me…my eyes must be tired. When I first read the post, I saw “Stronger Men conference” and read, “STRANGER MEN Conference”.

Headless Unicorn Guy: P.S. I still maintain that the word “Fornication” is now ONLY found in Christianese.
Outside the Bubble, it has no meaning.

In fundagelical circles, un-authorized sex is the worst thing there is.

Mara R,

Correction: “His self-owning comments sexualizing an acrobatic performer are only the latest of countless examples of his pornographic mindset.”

Lots of folks, you included, Mara, were sounding the alarm about MD before it was cool (2009!) 15-odd years later, the fact that he’s still blathering is hardly newsworthy. The surprise is that even after years of widespread, thoughtful critique and the very public implosion of his Mars Hill brand, MD found his way back to a pulpit. He was even invited to speak at a vanilla seeming megachurch. How?? Why??

*cue reply from Max* 😉 Not that “American churches are spiritually immature entertainment venues” is untrue, necessarily. I’m more curious about the psychology of it.

Max,

Yup

CMT: MD found his way back to a pulpit … How?? Why??

Christians are to forgive the truly repentant. But that doesn’t mean that fallen leaders who are forgiven should be restored to the pulpit. IMO, Driscoll permanently disqualified himself from the sacred office of pastor when he was at Mars Hill. Does anyone remember Driscoll publicly confessing and repenting of his potty-mouth preaching, bullying staff, plagiarism, mismanagement of church funds, and other assorted transgressions?

Samuel Conner: Maybe our material displays (the Washington Monument also comes to mind) shoudl be thought of as “ceremonial Asherahism”. Our Founders were hard men.

I think it (the Washington Monument) had mpre to do with the embodiment of geometric perfection from the likes of say Euclid and Archimedes. Those guys (our Founders) were well versed from the Greek thinkers of old.

Muff Potter,

Just trying to “see” things from the point of view of the subject of the OP — does it make sense in wider application?

Also, the subject of the OP has shown that provocative preaching can be an effective “business” model to “grow” a church. Perhaps provocative commenting can work to “grow” a ‘blog, too (or maybe not — channeling the OP subject again, everyone deserves to be banned from comments; everything else is grace). Of course, it’s all for the glory of God.

Linn: Driscoll … He’s just laughable

Anybody who ever thought Driscoll was a real deal man of God is out of their spiritual mind.

Max: doesn’t mean squat.

I’ve read (seriously, not joking) that Martin Luther did useful theological reflection while squatting (evidently constipation was an issue, so there was time for reflection), so “doesn’t mean squat” might not be as profound a deprecation as it superficially appears to be.

In the past, constipation has been an issue for me, so I’m unusually alert to stories like this, and the stories have stuck we me even as the GI issues have resolved (brown rice and beans is both nutritious and helpful, though there are potential adverse side effects; these can be partially resolved by soaking and pressure-cooking the beans).

That was probably TMI.

Watching the man who performed with the sword and the pole DID seem creepy to me, and overtly homoerotic. A quick google of his history, background, and a quick dive into videos of his recent actions, and no church in their collective right mind would hire this dude to park cars.

I loathe Driscoll and his mouth and his teachings. But he was spot on to call the filth out.

What I ask is why did Driscoll have to do the call out? Why didn’t Lindell immediately stop the performance?

Even bigger question, why did those “godly men” in the audience not storm out of James River never to return??

Muff Potter: There’s a whole slew of guys just like him whose real game is to part you (generic you) from your greenbacks.

And if you fall for it, you deserve each other…

The only thing scarier than Driscoll are the folks that follow him. I continue to be amazed at who and what American churchgoers idolize. We’ve entered a spiritual era that is of another spirit … another gospel that is not ‘the’ Gospel. It’s truly an amazing phenomenon.

Jeffrey Chalmers: independent thinking was discouraged..

Group think is taking American churchgoers into the great unknown. Critical thinking skills, a working knowledge of the Bible, and Holy Spirit inspiration are hard to be found in the 21st century church.

linda: Why didn’t Lindell immediately stop the performance? … why did those “godly men” in the audience not storm out of James River never to return??

Lindell obviously had no problem with it. This is a corner of the American church where anything goes in Jesus’ name. Lindell commented on Facebook after the event “We had a ton of fun!” Those “godly men” will probably be back next year for more of the same. The fun never stops at James River!

Surely, there were some godly men who were offended by this ungodly display of flesh and vacated the premises … maybe … hopefully. But would a godly man have signed up in the first place? Did they know what was on the schedule beforehand?

As someone noted upstream, “Stranger Men” would have been more appropriate than “Stronger Men.” Reckon what James River will serve up next year?! I can see the marquee now “Mark Driscoll Returns!” That would draw an even bigger crowd!

God help us …

Wife: “Did you enjoy the church conference honey?”

Husband: “It was a ton of fun!”

W: “Great! What did they do there?”

H: “Well, there was this half-naked sword swallower slithering on a pole”

W: “Uhhh … OK … anything else?”

H: “The featured speaker was the famous ‘Potty-Mouth Preacher'”

W: “Interesting … anything else?”

H: “Monster trucks, motorcycles, bull-riding, tanks”

W: “Please continue”

H: “Well, after the half-naked sword-swallower’s performance, the featured speaker said a demonic spirit had taken over the meeting and the Pastor yelled at him for saying that! But, by the time the conference was over, they were getting along OK. It was great! I’m going back next year!”

W: “No, you’re not! I think you are strong enough.”

Max: H: “Monster trucks, motorcycles, bull-riding, tanks”

W: “Please continue”

H: “Well, after the half-naked sword-swallower’s performance,

OTOH, there’s Jesus, the perfect male role model. Healing the lame, curing the sick, casting out demons, raising the dead, calling out the wicked hypocrites … but neither magic tricks nor monster trucks nor macho wrestlers. Jesus was/is God Himself, plain and simple.

Headless Unicorn Guy,

I’m an old DOORS fan from way back…

Alexandra A,

Ok it took me a bit to parse this because I hadn’t heard these things lumped together by people who were trying to be supportive. I think you’re saying that pro-trans arguments by nonreligious people sometimes inaccurately equate trans identities with kink. Then some Christians hear this, and in their minds kink=porn=bad. So that ends up reinforcing their negative stereotypes. Is that it?

“this makes it more difficult to have reasonable conversations with fellow Christians”

Oof. Is this the understatement of the century?? Are those conversations even possible at that point?

Ted,

Ted, you should have gone! I bet they gave out “Paintballs for Jesus” t-shirts!

dee: I think it might be in the eyes of the beholder and that person’s comfort level in general. Linda was unhappy when I discussed the statue of David I was visiting at the time of the controversy. As medical folks, we found the details of the statue breathtaking. Some people would say, “Put on clothes.”

It really is in the eye of the beholder. Some folks get ‘offended’ at the drop of a hat, and will always find something to kvetch about. Okay, yeah, so what? What ‘offends’ me is when they demand that the rest of us accommodate them, and that we all hafta’ walk on eggs.

Is the misspelling of Alex Magala’s name throughout the article on purpose?

Muff Potter,

My ‘go-to’: if you don’t like it, nobody’s forcin’ ya to stay.

Story I told on TWW some years ago:
My daughter worked VBS as a teacher’s aid with 4 and 5 year olds. Teacher was a typical Bertha-better-than-you. I was bringing my class outside as they were rounding up theirs to go back inside, so I saw and heard it all. My daughter was about 13 at the time, around 1997 or ‘98…… Not a man in sight…..

A little boy had climbed a tree and refused to come down. Well, my daughter is no fool – she had a pair of shorts on underneath her skirt. So, she shinnied up the tree and brought the kid down.
Teacher saw those shorts and started railing at my daughter for wearing pants to church …… I’m ashamed of you, only Jezebels wear pants to church, don’t you dare do it again, I expect you to dress and act like a lady……
My daughter comes back with, “Fine. Next time, you get the brat down,” and spins around walks inside with the kids.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

dee,

Add to this the fact that God created the human body and claimed it was good. Supposedly, that body only became an issue after sin. I think much of the human race has unhealthy views with the human body; and it runs in both directions, too timid about it and too exhibitionistic (word?)

a demon husband?

sounds like

Muff Potter: It really is in the eye of the beholder. Some folks get ‘offended’ at the drop of a hat, and will always find something to kvetch about.

Church Lady types are notorious for seeking out and attending/reading/listening to/viewing things just so they CAN get into a Righteous Snit about it and Virtue-Signal for GAWD.

It’s one of the reasons why any sort of Christian(TM) endeavor in the Arts is so shoddy.

P.S. Not only will they get Offended(TM) at the drop of a hat, they will drop the hat themselves.

Mara R: Driscoll taught that this was about women doing strip teases and said it was okay to have a stripper pole in the bedroom. So basically, back then, he was all FOR Asherah poles, as long as it was in the marriage bedroom.

“Just like an Asherah Pole, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
Doesn’t that sound like what the original Queen Jezebel was trying to do to Judaism?

So Driscoll can’t help himself. When he sees a pole as an entertainment prop, his brain goes directly to strippers pole dancing. And I wouldn’t be surprised if, when he saw that performer licking and swallowing that sword, he could picture his wife obeying the command that Driscoll gave in Scotland. That command that Driscoll said was from Jesus, Himself.

Driscoll has one helluva Dirty Mind.
Probably dirtier than any you’ll find in the Big Bad Secular(TM) World.
And cannot stop giving everyone else a peek into his Preferences(TM) and Appetites(TM).

CMT,

Yup, you’ve parsed that correctly.

“Oof. Is this the understatement of the century?? Are those conversations even possible at that point?”

I don’t believe it’s possible on a large scale; people talking on both sides are just too reactive. Before transitioning, I was left thoroughly unsatisfied by both the affirming and non-affirming arguments because they ignore established hermeneutics for whatever statement happens to support their own side.

BUT – I *have* had good individual conversations with some folks. I spent almost a year at a small non-denominational church processing my post-Reformed experience (trauma?), and decided not to stay because I felt my transition would be too disruptive. But had some great conversations with the pastor, one of the elders, and other folks, even when we landed on different sides. Generally folks might land on a non- or less-affirming viewpoint, but they legitimately did treat it as a third-order issue, noting that while they might have thoughts they don’t necessarily have answers, and that it’s OK to differ on these things.

I think this church being non-denominational played a big part in that response, as in other denominations the leader’s positions are linked with their responses (if they don’t have a hardline stance on X, that necessarily disqualifies them from leading within that denomination).

researcher: Driscoll and the crap he spouted too much publicity

Driscoll would have never made it on the “Christian” radar without flamboyant flim-flam. There is a segment of the American church which loves potty-mouth preachers … it makes them feel better about their rotten selves.

linda: He is not a born again Christian and rejects that belief.

Which means anything about him can be immediately dismissed.
(After all, there can be no Salvation outside of the Altar Call and Sinners’ Prayer.)

He has no children.

Which in Christianese can mean Teh Fag Card is now in play.

researcher: In another conversation about the life and ministry of Elijah, Driscoll compared Vice President Kamala Harris to the biblical figure Jezebel, referring to her as “a domineering, high-controlling woman who slept her way to the top.”

This builds his Street Cred with today’s thorougly-politicized Christians.
Enemy of My Enemy Is My Brother in Christ. ONE OF US!

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Is there a Jezebel spirit in sports? I mean, just look at those tight skimpy clothes the athletes wear!
Simone Biles’s outfit…… Peggy Fleming’s short skirt flapping up over her back….. Sergei Grinkov’s and Brian Boitano’s skintight pants…. the outfits those acrobats wear….. Oh My!

Dorothy Hamill’s hairdo! A Jezebel coiffure if I ever saw one! Unwholesome….yet alluring…. Jezebel!!

Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

“….“Fine. Next time, you get the brat down,” and spins around walks inside with the kids.”
+++++++++++++++++

i love this story

Bridget: I think much of the human race has unhealthy views with the human body;

I think too, that much of Christianity has unhealthy views of ‘sin’.

linda: Lindell needs to just own this … No fan of Driscoll but he got this right.

Agreed. It’s Lindell who needs to repent, not Driscoll. Well, I’m sure Driscoll has lots to repent of, too … but, in this case, he was right to rebuke the ungodly act. What pastor in their right spiritual mind would have allowed this in church?! Lindell has been drifting far off track in recent years, serving up what the dudebros want in order to keep his megachurch thriving. If James River is still affiliated with the Assemblies of God, some of the big boys at AoG need to pay Lindell a visit.

Max: Agreed. It’s Lindell who needs to repent, not Driscoll.

I hear the name “Lindell”, I keep thinking of the My Pillow Guy (for those who HAVE to sleep on a CHRISTIAN pillow).
Even though this guy’s a different Lindell. Maybe it has to do with the name?

“Lindell… Lindell… Lindell…
There’s just something about that Name…”

What amazes me about this sad church saga is that thousands of “strong” men from 42 countries apparently didn’t have a problem with this strange event at James River! Surely some of them did, but Driscoll was the only one bold enough to call it out.

Megachurches eventually reach a point where they have to keep serving up more and more sensational “ministries” to keep folks in the pew and dollars in the plate. Big screens, fog machines and skinny jeans are no longer enough. Pewsitters in the 21st century church demand more – the pulpit is forced to become church as entertainment. We ought to all be concerned about a House of God when it reaches the point where it feels compelled to put a half-naked, pole-climbing, sword-swallower on stage! I mean, Good Lord, shouldn’t monster trucks, bull-riding, and army tanks be enough!! I guess prayer meetings, Bible studies, and Christian fellowship are too old-fashioned for dudebros.

linda: So many churches, so few saved.

The Gospel (the real one) has fallen out of popularity … churches are into other things now.

The American church has invited him in, fixed his favorite coffee, plays his favorite music, and seats him on the platform while telling his favorite lies.

Max,
Max, there is good culturally relevant and there is bad culturally relevant, and Christians seem to specialize in the second.

linda: This episode at JRC tells you why I pray for revival in the Ozarks.

Every Christian in the Ozarks who heard the news about the mess at JRC should be crying out to God for revival and spiritual awakening. Things like this should cause the Body of Christ in the Springfield region to humble themselves, pray, repent, and seek God. Or perhaps area churches aren’t desperate enough yet?

Alexandra A,

I want to very strongly endorse this point by Alexandra A. The very big element we are tal.ing about are copying moralising religion to reinforce unrealistic stereotypes (spreading terror among schoolgirls and women university students as well as everyone gentle and tasteful AND everyone afraid to invent their own version of anything and reject that imposed by contracted authorities), publicly weaponise private parts of the young (guilt ridden at their muscular christianity – I am eyewitness in my classroom as well as the denomination I mainly hung around in the 1980s-1990s *) and demean all bodies of everybody, enlist underage actors on their fictions that are fictions, forbid communication between generations, create a totally false conflict between umbrellas they have usurped, commercially fuel cruelty. These contracted usurpers are doing the identical job to Driscoll and Andrew Tate, state religions (plural), and the annuated restless reformed.

{ * It’s appalling that Americans haven’t noticed this }

Alexandra A: Trans person here, unfortunately a lot of people who claim to advocate for us (and in many cases are not trans) make this equivalency (i.e. trans = kink = sex/porn).

Don’t forget Social Media Fads in the mix. Like TikTokers faking Tourettes and DID (multiple personalities) in their climb to Influencer status. (There’s a YouTube channel called “Ticcing Together” by a woman with serious Tourettes who scrutinizes and debunks these Influencer videos, pointing out where their Tourettes doesn’t match the real thing.)

What prevents these terminally-online Trendoids from also faking gender dysphoria and going viral?

At the very least (like the fake Tourettes) it puts so much noise in the channel that the signal (from those who actually DO have the condition being faked) are lost.

And from my experience watching Trendy Fads (like Teh Gay in Furry Fandom), the fakers turn themselves into Cartoon Parody Exaggerations of the real thing. Like taking Teh Gay high-profile using Jack Chick & Fred Phelps’s version of what THEY are Really Like as How To Behave In Public. (I’m talking as over the top as Baron Harkonnen in a Castro Street Pride Parade – Let the Freak Flag fly.)

And this just triggers a backlash. Especially from the CHRISTIANS, as it fits right into one of their strongest taboos. Fitting so tight it could have been deliberately targeted to enrage them.

Latest from Julie Roys on the subject:

Monster Truck Rally or Holy Spirit Barbie Party? A Missouri Megachurch Offers Both
https://julieroys.com/monster-truck-rally-holy-spirit-barbie-party-missouri-megachurch/

“A promo for the men’s conference begins with images of a roaring motorcycle, a wrestling match and a shouting preacher pacing across the stage like a lion, urging men to get ready to fight.

“The promo for the women’s video begins with the image of a pink record player, followed by the voice of the late televangelist Kathryn Kuhlman, urging women to give their worship to God — then breaks to scenes of joyful women dressed in stylish pink, dancing with joy as balloons and confetti fall from the sky.”

Just read it.

Especially the “Psst! Marks! Keep kayfabe!” feud between Lindell and Driscoll.

WHO CAME UP WITH THIS UNHOLY SPAWN OF VINCE MC MAHON AND DOUG PHILLIPS ESQUIRE?

“Hurry, Hurry, Hurry, Sign Right Up for the Greatest Show on Earth!” … the 2025 Stronger Men’s Conference is already scheduled! Professional football stars, bull-riding, motocross, professional wrestling!!

Unfortunately, unless he repents, Mr. Driscoll will not return as featured speaker.

https://strongermen.org/