WHAT??? Here’s another article: https://notthebee.com/article/mark-driscoll-pole-dancer-sword-swallower

I’ve followed Driscoll and his fellow restless false prophets for years, but still …
Again I say, WHAT???

Kari: masculinity.

We could post a list of “real men” by NT standards, and OT standards.

Dieterich Bonhoeffer
George Müller
Paul Rusesabagina
Hudson Taylor
CT Studd
John Baptiste de la Salle
Hugh O’Flaherty
John Lennox
Watchman Nee
Eric Liddell
Desmund Tutu
Nelson Mandela
Bob Macauley, Founder of Americares
Steve Biko
And all the men listed as Men of Faith, real men of faith, in Hebrews 11.

Hebrews 11 sets the record straight regarding real men and women of faith.

Muff Potter: Good grief is right. These guys (Driscoll et al.), let’s face it, hate women. If they were not restrained by our form of government and the rule of law, they’d still burn ‘witches’ if they could.

OTOH, more men of faith, who loved God all in, and their neighbors as themselves:

Casper ten Boom
Brother Andrew, God’s Smuggler
Father Damien of Hawaii
Dag Hammarskjöld

Of course, the ultimate man is Jesus, our Lord and Saviour, fully man and fully God. Jesus’ ministry disciples and the men of faith in Hebrews 11 who followed Jesus, are also amazing real men.

And Hebrews 11 goes on to Hebrews 12 with a note for us: “Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses [real men and women of faith], let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, fixing our eyes on Jesus [a real man], the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him, [a real man] who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.”

There’s no Hollywood bling with these real men of faith. Nothing showbiz about the cross. But Jesus defeated death, sin, and the world. Real men and women of faith likewise, though they may appear as losers, they triumph over death, sin, and the world. Despite their appearance, nothing lame loser about that.

Mr. Pidcock’s article was very good. This observation interested me: ‘So when Driscoll says nonbinary people have a sexuality that “shifts on a spectrum,” he understands that spectrums are threats to binary based power.’

I think this is accurate. We read about many church men who are deeply invested in the idea that “All men are this kind of human” and “All women are this different kind of human.” Secular society tends to the same “This OR that” view of people. It could be about maintaining power, or it could be about convenience in marketing towards people by putting them in boxes. In either case, it’s contrary to reality, and that can make people bonkers.

Consider that famous church man value, women’s long hair. “It is in the nature of woman to have long hair,” they say, quoting St. Paul, who confused, “I like women with long hair,” for some kind of universal value. Obviously, hair is hair. In most cases, the hair of both men and women will grow, if it’s left alone.

If you make a characteristic a moral norm, you hold people responsible for something they can’t change. “Men are tall and strong.” Well, what if you’re not? “Women have long hair.” What if you don’t. I remember a woman saying that she worried because her adopted Black daughters’ hair didn’t grow long and flowing. Did that mean God didn’t love them? Egad!

If you make the characteristic, an “accidental,” part of the essence of a person, then you have a false “binary” that excludes most people. If all women have long hair, and you get a haircut, are you no longer a woman? If you’re not a woman, what are you? If all men like violent movies, and you don’t, are you not a man? If you’re not a man, what are you? The smaller they make the boxes of “real man” and “real woman,” the more people don’t fit. Some will try to fit and be miserable and make others miserable, while others ditch the whole concept and go do something else.

Pastor Sam Powell has explained this stuff more effectively than I have.

Kari: They want everything to operate in binaries but that is not the world works

The more I study science, the more I realize that most “this OR that” categories are at best a convenience, not an accurate description of reality.
Is light a wave or a particle? It depends on when and how you look at it, what you try to measure it with.
Does time move “forward” or “backward”? Well, it depends. Richard Feynman found subatomic particles apparently going back in time, so “time” must be more complex than our perception indicates.
Is this a red oak tree or a white oak tree? They can crossbreed, so you might find both kinds of leaves on the same tree.
Are fungi more like plants or more like animals? Don’t get me started. Are they sentient? It depends on exactly what you mean by that.

In summary, I think that trying to make life, the universe, and everything understandable to our limited – and fallen! – minds is a waste of time and effort. I find it entirely consistent with Christianity to recognize that everything we think we “know” is at best incomplete and at worst, totally dead wrong.

Driscoll must have had some troubling visions the night before.

Well, since he has a track record for “Pornovisions” direct from God…
“I SEE Things…”

And I have never seen Teh Fag Card played so strongly (and repeatedly) since Fred Phelps.
Deep Throat Driscoll hath received the Anointed Mantle of Fred Phelps.

Gus: And, seriously, as a European, I need to ask: what’s with the hats worn indoors?

And as an American, I need to ask: what’s with the type of hat? What’s with the 1950s-style narrow-brim fedoras with a downfeather in the hatband on the left side that all these Real Alpha Males HATE with a Perfect Hatred?

Cynthia W.: The more I study science, the more I realize that most “this OR that” categories are at best a convenience, not an accurate description of reality.

Something I learned from Stephen Jay Gould essays:
NATURAL SYSTEMS DO NOT FOLLOW BOOLEAN LOGIC.
Natural Systems are complex and shade into each other like how many hairs before you have a beard. No clear boundary.
But LAW requires precise definitions of clear boundaries.

You lost me at “Mark Driscoll….” The less I know about Mark Driscoll and his antics, the better off I am.

it’s simply the result of a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a bag of gimmicks
Max,

Oh, Max! IMHO, you are forgetting THE most important, most critical ingredient: artificial, superficial testosterone! Without that, there is no church, no gospel (good news), and probably no salvation!

So many thoughts:

#1 – Why would John Lindell / the conference organizers even float the idea of: “Hey, I have a thought, let’s pay good money to Mark Driscoll so he can speak at this year’s conference. Of all the male speakers out there with a fine reputation, let’s give Mark a platform. What could go wrong?”

#2 – I can’t help but wonder how genuine Driscoll’s tirade was. He said he was up at 1:00 in the morning praying for the conference attendees which is why he had a hoarse voice. I just don’t have the willingness to believe anything Driscoll says. He feigns sincerity in my humble opinion.

#3 – Apparently by the end of the weekend conference Driscoll and John Lindell had made up. I have to wonder, was Driscoll’s tirade a pre-planned, manufactured performance, put down on paper even before the conference began. What did John Lindell know and when did he know it?

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Oh, Max! IMHO, you are forgetting THE most important, most critical ingredient: artificial, superficial testosterone! Without that, there is no church, no gospel (good news), and probably no salvation!

Testosterone my a$$.
It was Mary’s ovum that brought Jesus into this world, ‘manliness’ had nothing to do with it.

Muff Potter: we can also say that ‘space’ is not always the strict Cartesian box we’re so used to

From the little I understand of physics, “space” is as confusing as “time” and also they’re kind of the same thing, “spacetime”.

Muff Potter: Testosterone my a$$.
It was Mary’s ovum that brought Jesus into this world, ‘manliness’ had nothing to do with it.

Driscoll and his carnal followers really need to get over the macho, tough guy, man’s man image of Jesus … they are trying to bring Christ down to their level. True “Biblical Manhood” looks nothing like the bunch that hung out with potty-mouth Driscoll and friends at the Stronger Men’s Conference.

This form of American ‘Christianity’ has become the laughing stock of the world … it provides fodder for unbelievers to mock the church, which is not really ‘the’ Church … it’s another gospel which is not ‘the’ Gospel.

I think this was just a “marketing stunt” by mark driscoll. If you look at his facebook page, he’s promoting a free book all about the Jezebel spirit. In other news, these pastors (mark driscoll, tullian tchividjian, etc.) and people that promote and hire them are making people RUN from the church. I was close to the situation at Coral Ridge. I haven’t had any real interest in spiritual life or church since all that went down.

scott: I think this was just a “marketing stunt” by mark driscoll. If you look at his facebook page, he’s promoting a free book all about the Jezebel spirit.

Driscoll is always reinventing himself. He thinks he’s Elijah now.

Sorry. I lost the flow of the logic there. How did LGBTQ come up? The ancient act of sword swallowing is some kind of gay thing now?

Do fire stations have the Jezebel spirit?

Do I need to repent of eating pop-sickles and peaches?

Sounds like the sword swallower was pretty entertaining.

Driscoll is one weird paranoid man. The last thing he needs is a platform, but sadly there are still some people willing to give him one.

Kari: toxic masculinity

and toxic immaturity to go with it

Gus: Because these hats are elegant and sophisticated, and therefore a sign of the hated “elite”.

I think they’re just keeping those bald spots under wraps! Vanity, oh vanity!

Max: “So many incredible moments at @_strongermen_ 2024! Hundreds of men came to faith in Christ, and thousands of men got stronger!

Body count at the Altar Call – the TRUE measure of success.
Souls (not people) are just the currency of Heaven, nothing more.
All the rest of us will just have to look somewhere else.

Zohar the Magnificent,

“Sorry. I lost the flow of the logic there. How did LGBTQ come up?”
+++++++++++++++

md peddling and pandering to christian phobias & fantasies.

(fear of…. a need for superiority over…. spiritualizing…. all unhealthy avenues toward a basic need for control)

Look, the old testament is pretty clear on what to do about non-binary people among others. And women are pretty much to blame for the whole sin thing because a talking reptile told one woman to eat fruit.

This is the literal interpretation of the old testament. Kings with harems, slave girls, wiping out and enslaving your enemies, drunk and naked Noah.

All we need is Sybil Danning and it’s a B movie rental from Video King! You know those eighties/early nineties VHS tapes with Frank Frazzeta knock off art on the cover.

I wonder if a talking donkey spoke to Brother Mark. There’s another word for donkey that fits…

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I wish they would succinctly define what they think a ‘strong man’ is

Several years ago when Driscoll was in his prime, he painted an image of a macho-man Jesus:

“In Revelation, Jesus is a prize fighter with a tattoo down His leg, a sword in His hand and the commitment to make someone bleed. That is a guy I can worship. I cannot worship the hippie, diaper, halo Christ because I cannot worship a guy I can beat up.” — Mark Driscoll, Relevant Magazine

I bet he received a long standing ovation from the dudebros on that one!

Ive always observed…that the more men rail about THEIR aurhority….the more insecure they actually are.

elastigirl: it’s not hard for people immersed in religion to shift themselves away from reality by degrees

I don’t think religion is even required. If any charismatic, authoritative individual, maybe a little prone to arrogance to begin with, convinces enough other people to accept their version of reality, it becomes a dangerous feedback loop. The followers’ trusting admiration amplifies the leader’s own sense of unique giftedness and infallible insight. They can’t help getting high off their own supply. It happens in politics all the time. I’ve observed a similar pattern with a few individuals in my own field (healthcare).

But yes, spiritual/religious groups seem to be ripe for this kind of thing. Maybe faith draws people who are a little “off” and want the adulation? Or maybe the spiritual element makes the followers more credulous and vulnerable? I don’t know but it’s unsettling.

elastigirl: anyway, just like madonna is a businesswoman who reinvents herself based on a saavy sense of what’s in the current(s),

Now I gotta’ put my copy of The Immaculate Collection in the player and spin it up.

CMT:
Abigail,

Reminds me of Cartman from South Park:

YOU WILL RESPECT MAH AUTHORITEH!!

You are far from the only one to have made that connection.

Zohar the Magnificent: Sorry. I lost the flow of the logic there. How did LGBTQ come up?

Because:
1) Dee Tee Driscoll is a male nymphomaniac with a REAL Dirty Mind.
2) HOMOSEXUALITY(TM). Just the mention of the word turns off every Christian brain cell above the brainstem and waves the Bright Red Murder Flag in front of what’s left. “THEY’RE HERE! THEY’RE THERE! THEY’RE EVERYWHERE! SO BEWARE!”

Headless Unicorn Guy,

one of the saddest things I ever heard a mother say was a mom who claimed she had sought therapy because she thought her three-year old son with impulse-control issues was demonic. . . admittedly the behaviors were extremely and horrendous, but the use of the word ‘demonic’ seemed so startling to hear coming from the child’s mom . . . wow !

Been following a harsh reminder that women can be just as evil and abusive as men.

You can google the story of the two moms from Kansas that went missing right before Easter. Apparently her children’s paternal grandma’s filling fell out of her taco. Grandma offed the mom of the kids and her pastor’s wife who was court appointed supervisor that weekend for mom’s visitation. To make it even more appalling, mom was part of a group known as God’s Misfits, sort of combo religious cult and maga to the nth degree. And looks like others in the group helped her git’er done.

Male or female, sin is still sin. Pride is still a sin. Lots of things are still sins even though we don’t like to admit it. And saying sin is still sin is not hate speech.

And the Bible is right: the wrath of man does produce the righteousness of God.

“Let’s talk about faith- the faith that runs deep and doesn’t swim in the shallow waters of Driscoll and Howerton.”
Oh Dee, how spot on you are again with your words. I would venture to guess that the real Christian men were not at this conference but instead spending their manly money on helping a fellow man who lost his job cover his rent. Buying a bag or 2 of extra groceries for the local food bank. Repairing the car of a struggling single mom. Mowing the lawn for an elderly neighbor. Letting his wife sleep in and he made the kids pancakes and then took them to the park for a few hours (that was an example from my dad). I didn’t even have to go to a conference to figure out that these are examples of true manly Christian men. I read the Bible for myself. For free.

CMT,

“I don’t think religion is even required….

But yes, spiritual/religious groups seem to be ripe for this kind of thing. Maybe faith draws people who are a little “off” and want the adulation? Or maybe the spiritual element makes the followers more credulous and vulnerable? I don’t know but it’s unsettling.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

no doubt it shows up in many contexts.

with religion, say christianity, people are encouraged to be vulnerable. encouraged to trust invisible forces (God), their leaders, their peers…

in fact, compelled to trust or else face some penalties

(like not having faith, displeasing God, not measuring up, not being a legitimate christian, not being a member of the group, being ostracized, looked down on, being suspect, a threat, ejection from the group…)

one is not allowed to speak up and dissent and still remain part of the group. passive compliance is the only option.

so, extravert, charisma, and narcissism are rewarded at the top
passive compliance is rewarded for everyone else

church leaders simply have too much to lose.

Max: Driscoll is always reinventing himself.He thinks he’s Elijah now.

I think you two are on to something. Sounds like he was just plugging his book Jezebel Spirit. If there is no such thing as bad publicity, then Mark had a highly successful conference appearance!

I find the whole conference weird / fake / immature / inauthentic.

There’s been a couple of developments here. I hope Dee is OK with me linking to Protestia. (Yeah, I know there was some history with JD, etc.)

https://protestia.com/2024/04/15/man-of-convinction-mark-driscoll-repents-of-rebuke-says-he-should-have-gotten-permission-before-he-said-it-and-stayed-quiet-if-asked/

https://protestia.com/2024/04/16/breaking-i-am-a-christian-sword-swallower-hits-back-at-mark-driscoll-for-likening-his-performance-to-a-strip-tease/

Max: “Hurry, Hurry, Hurry, Step Right Up To The Greatest Show On Earth!” shouts the carnival barker

“WELCOME BACK MY FRIENDS
TO THE SHOW THAT NEVER ENDS!
WE’RE SO GLAD YOU COULD ATTEND!
COME INSIDE! COME INSIDE!”
— Emerson Lake & Palmer, “Karn Evil Nine, First Impression, Part 2”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc6ymS4NGxg

The lyrics immediately preceding these (the end of First Impression, Part 1) are even more prophetic:

“AND NOT CONTENT WITH THAT
WITH OUR HANDS BEHIND OUR BACKS
WE PULL JESUS FROM A HAT!
LOOK AT THAT! LOOK AT THAT!
ROLL UP!
ROLL UP!
ROLL UP!
SEE THE SHOOOOOOOW!!!”

“Let’s talk about faith – the faith that runs deep and doesn’t swim in the shallow waters of Driscoll and Howerton …”

… or Pastor Lindell who hosted this sad spectacle at James River Church, who posted on Facebook “We had a ton of fun”. Thousands from 42 countries attended the conference; must have brought in a ton of money, serving up that ton of fun!

Actors would have no stage if they didn’t have an audience willing to buy tickets to the show. So, the beat goes on.

R’as al Ghul: I want an amp that goes to 11. Maybe some day a church can headline the following “Puppet Show & Mark Driscoll”

Or maybe (hopefully) they’ll just get lost backstage in Cleveland.

Excellent reference.

elastigirl: i vote joni mitchell or carole king. or billie holiday, grace slick, sarah vaughan….

I vote for all of them too.

Typo correction: grandma, not mom, was one of God’s Misfits.

Ariel: there is no stage or applause or audience; just unheralded everyday acts of love, unnoticed by everyone … except Jesus

Narcissistic church leaders will have nothing to do with this kind of ministry … it’s all about them … they must be noticed and adored.

Muff Potter: These guys (Driscoll et al.), let’s face it, hate women.

“Just like the Manosphere, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”

And in Manosphere-speak, there are no “Women”.
Only “females”, “femoids”, “foids”, “hoes”, “THOTs”, and “304s”.

If they were not restrained by our form of government and the rule of law, they’d still burn ‘witches’ if they could.

With as loose a definition of “witch” as is necessary.
But then, that’s what Taking Back America and Restoring a Truly CHRISTIAN Nation is for.

(Come to think of it, isn’t “Jezebel Spirit” or “Witch” Christian Manosphere-speak for “She Uppity”?)

Headless Unicorn Guy: But then, that’s what Taking Back America and Restoring a Truly CHRISTIAN Nation is for.

Those people don’t want a democracy, they want a dictatorship.

Muff Potter: Those people don’t want a democracy, they want a dictatorship.

As long as it’s a CHRISTIAN Dictatorship under a CHRISTIAN leader like Vladimir Putin enforcing CHRISTIAN Pelvic Morality. With US as His Patriarch Kyril, seated at His right and left hands!

Remember the last dialog line between the two Author Self-Inserts in Left Behind: Volume 12, exiting the Timeless Halls after receiving a new Arda (if not a new Ea) from the hand of Eru Iluvatar Himself?
“Now we can finally build a Truly CHRISTIAN Nation.”

Cynthia W.: Pastor Sam Powell has explained this stuff more effectively than I have.

Cynthia W,

I’ve not yet read past your comment, so someone else might’ve already commented on this….

I’d say you explained things VERY effectively. 🙂

I love the way the geezer in the clip slides gingerly down his mountainous automobile, instead of launching himself, doted on by thousands of angels lest he dash his glass slipper . . .

Mark D, like James Charles, is too big to “be allowed to fail”. There is a park for everything now, even inflatable themes.

researcher: Has anyone considered, given all the information in Dee’s OP and the links she provided, the picture of a tank on top of some cars, and combining the information with “Pastor” Doug Wilson and Moscow, Idaho, that this is the continuation of the ongoing building of a militia / white supremacist movement?

I have faith in the American people as a whole who do not support these nut-bags (Wilson et al.). I also have confidence that they (far right ideologues) will never acquire the power they so desperately crave.

Believer: “I’d rather have Jesus than anything this world affords today.”

“I’d rather be led by His nail-scarred hand”

Max: Kari: toxic masculinity

and toxic immaturity to go with it

The two go together.

Headless Unicorn Guy: “Just like the Manosphere, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”

And in Manosphere-speak, there are no “Women”.
Only “females”, “femoids”, “foids”, “hoes”, “THOTs”, and “304s”.

With as loose a definition of “witch” as is necessary.
But then, that’s what Taking Back America and Restoring a Truly CHRISTIAN Nation is for.

(Come to think of it, isn’t “Jezebel Spirit” or “Witch” Christian Manosphere-speak for “She Uppity”?)

I just had to say it.

“What else burns?”
“More Witches!”

Michael in UK,

If ya’ don’t eatcher’ meat, you can’t have any pudding!
How can you have any pudding if you don’t eatcher’ meat?

Max: Those hundreds of men will probably come back and get saved again at next year’s conference! And thousands of men will get stronger again in something. The beat goes on.

Oh, that Dopamine Rush! Over and Over!
Keyed into one and only one trigger!
Just like Crack, Crystal Meth, and killer Social Media Algorithms.