- “Ken: To be honest, when I found out the patriarchy wasn’t just about horses, I lost interest.”
Today, Rick Pidock hit the ball out of the park with his post: What happened when Mark Driscoll and Josh Howerton showed up at the Stronger Men’s Conference this weekend? When I got home from morning errands, I found others reporting on what happened at the conference, so I postponed Part 3 of my Paul Pressler series to join the party.
The Barbie movie had some beautiful scenes that addressed patriarchy in their way. Enjoy this 7-minute video from the film.
What is the Stronger Men’s Conference?
The conference describes itself:
One of the most anticipated features of the Stronger Men’s Conference is the Friday Night Entertainment. Our past conferences have included Professional Bull Riding, Motocross / BMX Competition, Professional Boxing, and much more!
…Each year we have the amazing opportunity to welcome special guests to the conference. In past years we have had MLB Hall of Famer Mariano Rivera, NFL quarterbacks Carson Wentz and Kirk Cousins, UFC Hall of Famer Matt Hughes, and others!
Here is the introduction trailer from the 2024 conference.
A challenge for the reader
I looked on their website for a mention of typical Christian things like the Bible, Jesus, faith practice, etc. I found next to nothing which says a whole lot, doesn’t it? I almost said nothing but I saw this little blurb, and I mean tiny:
Go to this page and see how quickly you can find it.
What sort of theological insights and mojo did Mark Driscoll contribute to the conference this year?
Rick Pidcock wrote:
Megachurch pastor Mark Driscoll seethed as Alex Magala, described by two fawning onlookers as “the finest swordsman in all the world,” slowly circled a pole on stage, peeled off his red leather top, slid his tongue up to the tip of a sword, swallowed the sword all the way down his throat, and began to climb the pole erected for the opening of this weekend’s Stronger Men’s Conference in Springfield, Mo.
Driscoll was so enraged by the two onlookers that he claimed to wake up at 1:00 a.m. to pray for the men. By the time he took the stage, his voice was hoarse. But he was ready to go. “They’re nonbinary,” he began going after LGBTQ people. “Their sexuality shifts on a spectrum. They are transgender.”
Driscoll blamed the presence of LGBTQ people on demons who deny male and female binaries and claimed America has become a cult of tolerance. Then he turned his sights on the sword-swallowing male pole dancer.
“The Jezebel Spirit opened our event,” Driscoll declared. “There was a platform. It was a high place. On it was a pole, an Asherah pole, the same thing that’s used in a strip club for women who have the Jezebel Spirit to seduce men.”
A few nervous claps began to spread through the stadium.
“In front of that was a man, who ripped his shirt off like a woman does in front of a pole at a strip club,” Driscoll continued to describe. “That man then ascended … and then he swallowed a sword.”
Driscoll must have had some troubling visions the night before. Most sword swallowers lick their sword before insertion to give one more layer of moisture before they swallow. It wasn’t some prelude to a demonic or sexual ritual. There was a finalist in America’s Got Talent last year. He did it precisely as this guy did it. Many use the pole to add some pizzazz rather than standing stock still. Reread this quote.
“The Jezebel Spirit opened our event,” Driscoll declared. “There was a platform. It was a high place. On it was a pole, an Asherah pole, the same thing that’s used in a strip club for women who have the Jezebel Spirit to seduce men.”
The pole was not an Asherah pole but a device to make the act look more dangerous.
Dear reader, do not worry. I am not attempting to give credence to this travesty of a men’s conference. More on that in a minute.
Does anyone remember Mark Driscoll’s infamous demon trials?
Christianity Today calls it a lesser-known practice at Mars Hill. However, this lesser-known blogger knew about it and decided that Driscoll was going off the deep end. As Driscoll lurched towards the end of his ministry at Mars Hill, he appeared to dabble in things like sussing out demons who influenced his pastors. He was also known for his ability to see people in the middle of an adulterous encounter, documented in the infamous “I see things” video.
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After Driscoll left Mars Hill, he started hanging around Robert Morris, who believes that even Paul was under the influence of demons. Frankly, Driscoll jumped the shark a long time ago. His new church in Scottsdale has been the subject of much discussion and concern. Driscoll was always emphasizing the leadership of men while calling women “penis homes.” Can anyone imagine Jesus looking at his beloved mother and telling her that she was a ‘penis home?”
Please don’t get me going on the subject of demons. After studying Driscoll, Howerton, and others, I concluded that our sinful nature is enough. We don’t need to find demons to explain the bad behavior of these quasi-Gospel influencers who give Love “a bad name.”
Thankfully, the plug got pulled on his talk of Asherah poles and demons at. the conference.
Josh Howerton was there, cheering the nonsense on.
Of course, he was there. He sounds like the type of pastor who thinks that men are represented by Church Norris, tanks, and motorcycles.From the perceptive Rick Pidcock at BNG:
Howerton’s controversy began when he told women to crown dishonorable men as their kings. “Give him a crown and then he becomes a king,” he claimed.
One of those dishonorable men would be Driscoll, who was fired from Mars Hill Church in Seattle due to spiritually abusing his congregation, especially women, whom he called “penis homes.”
When he was still employed by Mars Hill prior to being fired and starting a new megachurch, Driscoll threatened: “There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus, and by God’s grace, it’ll be a mountain by the time we’re done. You either get on the bus or you get run over by the bus. Those are the two options.”
As Howerton has become mired in controversy over his own sexually coercive jokes from the pulpit over the past month and due to his attempt to move on through a pathetic apology, many people made natural comparisons between Howerton and Driscoll.
Apparently, there is substance to the comparisons.
Johnna Harris, who hosts the Bodies Behind the Bus podcast, posted a screenshot from Howerton’s Instagram stories over the weekend. In the story, Howerton’s picture is taken from close to the front row. And it’s a picture of Mark Driscoll preaching at the Stronger Men’s Conference.
Take a look at Howerton’s possibly plagiarized apology. It sure doesn’t seem like he tried to do something independently, and he probably lacks the emotional depth to do it.
Here’s a clip of our side-by-side comparison of the apologies. To see full comparison, follow this link to our article: https://t.co/u5F60KzOqZ 2/2 pic.twitter.com/p8JKAd9FoR
— Julie Roys (@reachjulieroys) April 13, 2024
The faith is not a celebration of patriarchy.
Let’s talk about faith- the faith that runs deep and doesn’t swim in the shallow waters of Driscoll and Howerton. Look again at the tiny print, which mentioned that there was something about God’s purpose for their lives. It was drowned out by the monster trucks and the sword swallowers. It reminded me more of a circus than a place to learn about the faith Jude 1:3 ESV.
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
Jesus didn’t need Motorcross. He didn’t say we needed Monster Trucks. We do not need to jump up and down, coming up with bigger and better ideas to get noticed. Good night, people! Is not the Gospel enough?
Thankfully, some of us have found churches that are not Mojo Dojo Casa churches. Sadly, for many men sucked into the delusions of Mark Driscoll, sword swallowers, and others, the faith is hard to see and hear, drowned out by weird discussions of Asherah poles, strip clubs, and tanks. That faith will not stand the trials of time. When life gets hard, and it will, the house of monster trucks, demons, and Mark Driscoll will fall.
“Imagine yourself as a living house. God comes in to rebuild that house. At first, perhaps, you can understand what He is doing. He is getting the drains right and stopping the leaks in the roof and so on; you knew that those jobs needed doing and so you are not surprised. But presently He starts knocking the house about in a way that hurts abominably and does not seem to make any sense. What on earth is He up to? The explanation is that He is building quite a different house from the one you thought of – throwing out a new wing here, putting on an extra floor there, running up towers, making courtyards. You thought you were being made into a decent little cottage: but He is building a palace. He intends to come and live in it Himself.”
― Mere Christianity
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To be honest, the whole things quite confusing to me…
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WHAT??? Here’s another article: https://notthebee.com/article/mark-driscoll-pole-dancer-sword-swallower
I’ve followed Driscoll and his fellow restless false prophets for years, but still …
Again I say, WHAT???
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I really enjoy the people who say that this performance “has no place at a Christian conference.” But the MONSTER TRUCKS are fine??? The whole conference is a ridiculous display of toxic masculinity.
Also, Mark, it’s so predictable that you will find a way to blame Jezebel women for something that happened at a men’s conference. Good grief.
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We could post a list of “real men” by NT standards, and OT standards.
Dieterich Bonhoeffer
George Müller
Paul Rusesabagina
Hudson Taylor
CT Studd
John Baptiste de la Salle
Hugh O’Flaherty
John Lennox
Watchman Nee
Eric Liddell
Desmund Tutu
Nelson Mandela
Bob Macauley, Founder of Americares
Steve Biko
And all the men listed as Men of Faith, real men of faith, in Hebrews 11.
Hebrews 11 sets the record straight regarding real men and women of faith.
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Good grief is right. These guys (Driscoll et al.), let’s face it, hate women. If they were not restrained by our form of government and the rule of law, they’d still burn ‘witches’ if they could.
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OTOH, more men of faith, who loved God all in, and their neighbors as themselves:
Casper ten Boom
Brother Andrew, God’s Smuggler
Father Damien of Hawaii
Dag Hammarskjöld
Of course, the ultimate man is Jesus, our Lord and Saviour, fully man and fully God. Jesus’ ministry disciples and the men of faith in Hebrews 11 who followed Jesus, are also amazing real men.
And Hebrews 11 goes on to Hebrews 12 with a note for us: “Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses [real men and women of faith], let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, fixing our eyes on Jesus [a real man], the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him, [a real man] who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.”
There’s no Hollywood bling with these real men of faith. Nothing showbiz about the cross. But Jesus defeated death, sin, and the world. Real men and women of faith likewise, though they may appear as losers, they triumph over death, sin, and the world. Despite their appearance, nothing lame loser about that.
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Frankly, the name of the conference, “Stronger Men”, is completely wrong. It should be “Overindulged 12-Year-Olds Who Never Want to Grow Up”, but even then, I know a lot of intelligent 12yo who would be offended – they wouldn’t want to be seen dead with a lot of cringe old guys behaving like immature children.
And, seriously, as a European, I need to ask: what’s with the hats worn indoors? I can understand wearing one outside as protection against sunburn or too bright sunlight – but inside? Why does every suburban desk jockey in the US nowadays seem to pretend they’re some kind of, pardon the expression, country yokel¹?
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¹Don’t get me wrong – I grew up in a small village, I have lived in another small village for many years now, some of my best friends growing up were farmers’ kids, I speak the local dialect with the best of them, but I would never pretend I’m a fake farmer.
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Mr. Pidcock’s article was very good. This observation interested me: ‘So when Driscoll says nonbinary people have a sexuality that “shifts on a spectrum,” he understands that spectrums are threats to binary based power.’
I think this is accurate. We read about many church men who are deeply invested in the idea that “All men are this kind of human” and “All women are this different kind of human.” Secular society tends to the same “This OR that” view of people. It could be about maintaining power, or it could be about convenience in marketing towards people by putting them in boxes. In either case, it’s contrary to reality, and that can make people bonkers.
Consider that famous church man value, women’s long hair. “It is in the nature of woman to have long hair,” they say, quoting St. Paul, who confused, “I like women with long hair,” for some kind of universal value. Obviously, hair is hair. In most cases, the hair of both men and women will grow, if it’s left alone.
If you make a characteristic a moral norm, you hold people responsible for something they can’t change. “Men are tall and strong.” Well, what if you’re not? “Women have long hair.” What if you don’t. I remember a woman saying that she worried because her adopted Black daughters’ hair didn’t grow long and flowing. Did that mean God didn’t love them? Egad!
If you make the characteristic, an “accidental,” part of the essence of a person, then you have a false “binary” that excludes most people. If all women have long hair, and you get a haircut, are you no longer a woman? If you’re not a woman, what are you? If all men like violent movies, and you don’t, are you not a man? If you’re not a man, what are you? The smaller they make the boxes of “real man” and “real woman,” the more people don’t fit. Some will try to fit and be miserable and make others miserable, while others ditch the whole concept and go do something else.
Pastor Sam Powell has explained this stuff more effectively than I have.
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Cynthia W.,
This is a great comment – you are right. They want everything to operate in binaries but that is not the world works or how God created us!
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The more I study science, the more I realize that most “this OR that” categories are at best a convenience, not an accurate description of reality.
Is light a wave or a particle? It depends on when and how you look at it, what you try to measure it with.
Does time move “forward” or “backward”? Well, it depends. Richard Feynman found subatomic particles apparently going back in time, so “time” must be more complex than our perception indicates.
Is this a red oak tree or a white oak tree? They can crossbreed, so you might find both kinds of leaves on the same tree.
Are fungi more like plants or more like animals? Don’t get me started. Are they sentient? It depends on exactly what you mean by that.
In summary, I think that trying to make life, the universe, and everything understandable to our limited – and fallen! – minds is a waste of time and effort. I find it entirely consistent with Christianity to recognize that everything we think we “know” is at best incomplete and at worst, totally dead wrong.
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Church as Entertainment at its best (worst).
James River Church and Pastor Lindell have been serving up cheap grace to attract members to his mega’church’ in Springfield, MO for years. Driscoll actually did something right (sorta) to challenge this ungodly display of manhood by calling it out. Who would have thought that anything would be too irreverent in church for Driscoll?!!
The local Springfield newspaper reported the sad event this way:
https://www.news-leader.com/story/news/local/ozarks/2024/04/15/mark-driscoll-leaves-james-river-church-conference-stage-alex-magala-comment/73327939007/
Yep, the Great God Entertainment sits on the throne in certain corners of the American church. Megachurch ain’t all that … it’s simply the result of a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a bag of gimmicks. James River has now given a lost world yet another reason to say “See, there’s nothing to it.” On the other hand, the church will now attract megamaniacs looking for a home. Mamas, keep your eyes on the kids.
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Well, since he has a track record for “Pornovisions” direct from God…
“I SEE Things…”
And I have never seen Teh Fag Card played so strongly (and repeatedly) since Fred Phelps.
Deep Throat Driscoll hath received the Anointed Mantle of Fred Phelps.
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But that is how pre-AI computers work!
Boolean logic, If/Then/Else, True or False, 1 or 0, nothing else possible.
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And as an American, I need to ask: what’s with the type of hat? What’s with the 1950s-style narrow-brim fedoras with a downfeather in the hatband on the left side that all these Real Alpha Males HATE with a Perfect Hatred?
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You mean Spiritual Warfare(TM) by all these Seven Sons of Sceva wandering around?
“DEMONS! DEMONS! DEMONS! SHEEKA-BOOM-BAH! BAM!” in every closet, under every bed, in that sweater you bought at Goodwill, incarnated & enfleshed in anyone and everyone who doesn’t kiss your Spiritual Warrior ass? “THEY’RE HERE! THEY’RE THERE! THEY’RE EVERYWHERE! BEWARE! BEWARE! BEWARE!”
So many DEMONS! DEMONS! DEMONS! you’d think Satan is more powerful than God — otherwise why would God need such Mighty Spiritual Warriors (guess who)? Maybe that’s why these Mighty Spiritual Warriors are so loud and shrill — deep down inside, terrified that they might have chosen the losing side.
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Something I learned from Stephen Jay Gould essays:
NATURAL SYSTEMS DO NOT FOLLOW BOOLEAN LOGIC.
Natural Systems are complex and shade into each other like how many hairs before you have a beard. No clear boundary.
But LAW requires precise definitions of clear boundaries.
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“IT’S TIME FOR MEGAMANIACS!
SAY AAA-MEN WHILE PASTOR YAKS!”
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You lost me at “Mark Driscoll….” The less I know about Mark Driscoll and his antics, the better off I am.
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Though I have to wonder if this Driscoll-Lindell feud was something they came up to stoke publicity, web hits, and the like. They probably did. But at least the fake radio feud (and later TV feud) between Jack Benny and Fred Allen was funny and well-done.
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it’s simply the result of a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a bag of gimmicks
Max,
Oh, Max! IMHO, you are forgetting THE most important, most critical ingredient: artificial, superficial testosterone! Without that, there is no church, no gospel (good news), and probably no salvation!
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Some of the greatest “men of God” I have known have been women 🙂
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So many thoughts:
#1 – Why would John Lindell / the conference organizers even float the idea of: “Hey, I have a thought, let’s pay good money to Mark Driscoll so he can speak at this year’s conference. Of all the male speakers out there with a fine reputation, let’s give Mark a platform. What could go wrong?”
#2 – I can’t help but wonder how genuine Driscoll’s tirade was. He said he was up at 1:00 in the morning praying for the conference attendees which is why he had a hoarse voice. I just don’t have the willingness to believe anything Driscoll says. He feigns sincerity in my humble opinion.
#3 – Apparently by the end of the weekend conference Driscoll and John Lindell had made up. I have to wonder, was Driscoll’s tirade a pre-planned, manufactured performance, put down on paper even before the conference began. What did John Lindell know and when did he know it?
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I wonder if by extension, we can also say that ‘space’ is not always the strict Cartesian box we’re so used to.
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Testosterone my a$$.
It was Mary’s ovum that brought Jesus into this world, ‘manliness’ had nothing to do with it.
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Exactly. And of course, we do need clear boundaries for law, and they’re useful in science, as long as we remember that they are formalities rather than Truth.
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From the little I understand of physics, “space” is as confusing as “time” and also they’re kind of the same thing, “spacetime”.
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Frankly, the name of the conference, “Stronger Men”, is completely wrong. It should be “Overindulged 12-Year-Olds Who Never Want to Grow Up”
Gus,
I wish they would succinctly define what they think a ‘strong man’ is…. is it one who sits on his fanny and gets off on watching other men ride bulls, compete, fight, operate big machinery, and make things go “BOOM”…. like they do at the conference?????
(BTW, how much tithe money and donations from the pew peons go to rent the arena and pay the guys who play GI Joe, John Wayne, smash chairs, and do the pole-dance sword swallowing thingies?)
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Driscoll and his carnal followers really need to get over the macho, tough guy, man’s man image of Jesus … they are trying to bring Christ down to their level. True “Biblical Manhood” looks nothing like the bunch that hung out with potty-mouth Driscoll and friends at the Stronger Men’s Conference.
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Because these hats are elegant and sophisticated, and therefore a sign of the hated “elite”.
Whereas we wear the regular Joe Farmer’s hat and are therefore part of “us”. (Even if we make 300k, 500k or more out of the regular pewsitters’s pockets, we are definitely and not in any way part of the financial elite. No! Never!)
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This form of American ‘Christianity’ has become the laughing stock of the world … it provides fodder for unbelievers to mock the church, which is not really ‘the’ Church … it’s another gospel which is not ‘the’ Gospel.
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I was raised in the US and I was taught that a gentlemen never kept his hat on in the house, especially at the dinner table.
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I think this was just a “marketing stunt” by mark driscoll. If you look at his facebook page, he’s promoting a free book all about the Jezebel spirit. In other news, these pastors (mark driscoll, tullian tchividjian, etc.) and people that promote and hire them are making people RUN from the church. I was close to the situation at Coral Ridge. I haven’t had any real interest in spiritual life or church since all that went down.
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Lord, in Christianity Lite churches anything goes! I wouldn’t wear a hat in church (I’m a gentleman), but I’ve seen a lot worse attire come in off the street. Guess I’m an old fuddy-duddy, but I don’t understand buying expensive pants with holes in them to wear to church or sporting Bud Light t-shirts in houses of worship.
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Driscoll is always reinventing himself. He thinks he’s Elijah now.
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Kari,
I agree with you
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Sorry. I lost the flow of the logic there. How did LGBTQ come up? The ancient act of sword swallowing is some kind of gay thing now?
Do fire stations have the Jezebel spirit?
Do I need to repent of eating pop-sickles and peaches?
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Oh, never mind. I just realized what happened. Mark must have misread Romans 8:7 as, “Because the carnival mind is enmity against God”. No wonder he’s seething.
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Sounds like the sword swallower was pretty entertaining.
Driscoll is one weird paranoid man. The last thing he needs is a platform, but sadly there are still some people willing to give him one.
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Well, he probably won’t get the platform at James River Church again!
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and toxic immaturity to go with it
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I guess Pastor Lindell at James River Church thought the conference went really well, despite that hiccup with Driscoll. He wrote on Facebook:
“So many incredible moments at @_strongermen_ 2024! Hundreds of men came to faith in Christ, and thousands of men got stronger! And we had a ton of fun.”
No doubt about it … there was at least one really, really incredible moment! I’m sure most of the ole boys had a ton of fun. Christianity Lite serves up a heap of amusement indeed. Those hundreds of men will probably come back and get saved again at next year’s conference! And thousands of men will get stronger again in something. The beat goes on.
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I think they’re just keeping those bald spots under wraps! Vanity, oh vanity!
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Now SAINT Damian DeVuester.
Canonized 2009, feast day April 15 in Hawaii itself, May 10 everywhere else.
Back in 1978, PBS broadcast a one-man stage play of his life:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZsmUCCvx5I
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Body count at the Altar Call – the TRUE measure of success.
Souls (not people) are just the currency of Heaven, nothing more.
All the rest of us will just have to look somewhere else.
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CMT,
“Driscoll is one weird paranoid man. The last thing he needs is a platform, but sadly there are still some people willing to give him one.”
+++++++++++++++++
as i see it, it’s not hard for people immersed in religion to shift themselves away from reality by degrees.
where reality is replaced with phobias & fantasy – shades of paranoia, neuroses, magical thinking, grandiosity…
[that’s not to say the spiritual & supernatural do not exist. as i see it, those realms are very much part of reality, & we’re better off being matter of fact about it, instead of freaking out with overspiritualizing or magical megalomania or fear…]
anyway, just like madonna is a businesswoman who reinvents herself based on a saavy sense of what’s in the current(s), md reinvents himself.
i think md is simply a businessman (a soulless one), and his target market is christian phobias and fantasies.
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Zohar the Magnificent,
“Sorry. I lost the flow of the logic there. How did LGBTQ come up?”
+++++++++++++++
md peddling and pandering to christian phobias & fantasies.
(fear of…. a need for superiority over…. spiritualizing…. all unhealthy avenues toward a basic need for control)
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Kari,
“I really enjoy the people who say that this performance “has no place at a Christian conference.” But the MONSTER TRUCKS are fine??? The whole conference is a ridiculous display of toxic masculinity.
Also, Mark, it’s so predictable that you will find a way to blame Jezebel women for something that happened at a men’s conference. Good grief.”
++++++++++++++++++++
it’s Spinal Tap. just substitute ‘christian men’ for ‘rock bands’.
i can’t deny there’s entertainment value just observing a parody that people think is reality.
but more than anything, it’s super sad.
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Look, the old testament is pretty clear on what to do about non-binary people among others. And women are pretty much to blame for the whole sin thing because a talking reptile told one woman to eat fruit.
This is the literal interpretation of the old testament. Kings with harems, slave girls, wiping out and enslaving your enemies, drunk and naked Noah.
All we need is Sybil Danning and it’s a B movie rental from Video King! You know those eighties/early nineties VHS tapes with Frank Frazzeta knock off art on the cover.
I wonder if a talking donkey spoke to Brother Mark. There’s another word for donkey that fits…
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I want an amp that goes to 11. Maybe some day a church can headline the following “Puppet Show & Mark Driscoll”
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Several years ago when Driscoll was in his prime, he painted an image of a macho-man Jesus:
“In Revelation, Jesus is a prize fighter with a tattoo down His leg, a sword in His hand and the commitment to make someone bleed. That is a guy I can worship. I cannot worship the hippie, diaper, halo Christ because I cannot worship a guy I can beat up.” — Mark Driscoll, Relevant Magazine
I bet he received a long standing ovation from the dudebros on that one!
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Most likely. They probably all had those Driscoll spiky hairdos as younger dudebros. Now that their heads are shining, they wear caps. Church as Entertainment is certainly not going to ask them to take their hats off.
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Ive always observed…that the more men rail about THEIR aurhority….the more insecure they actually are.
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and at the first sign of trouble, they run screaming like women 🙂
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I don’t think religion is even required. If any charismatic, authoritative individual, maybe a little prone to arrogance to begin with, convinces enough other people to accept their version of reality, it becomes a dangerous feedback loop. The followers’ trusting admiration amplifies the leader’s own sense of unique giftedness and infallible insight. They can’t help getting high off their own supply. It happens in politics all the time. I’ve observed a similar pattern with a few individuals in my own field (healthcare).
But yes, spiritual/religious groups seem to be ripe for this kind of thing. Maybe faith draws people who are a little “off” and want the adulation? Or maybe the spiritual element makes the followers more credulous and vulnerable? I don’t know but it’s unsettling.
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Abigail,
Reminds me of Cartman from South Park:
YOU WILL RESPECT MAH AUTHORITEH!!
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Now I gotta’ put my copy of The Immaculate Collection in the player and spin it up.
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Reminds me of this scene from Talladega Nights with their Baby Jesus Prayer and how one of the characters wants the tough guy Jesus:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY5VNDvea1M
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You are far from the only one to have made that connection.
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I think it’s because a “spiritual/religious group” environment elevates everything – EVERYTHING – to literally COSMIC and ETERNAL Importance. Even your haircut becomes “GOD OR SATAN? WHOSE SIDE ARE YOU ON?”
Just like everything was A Political Statement in the old USSR and its fanboys.
“I’m going to take a bathroom break. Am I going to the Men’s or the Woman’s Room? That’s a POLITICAL Statement!” — morning drive-time talk radio
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Because:
1) Dee Tee Driscoll is a male nymphomaniac with a REAL Dirty Mind.
2) HOMOSEXUALITY(TM). Just the mention of the word turns off every Christian brain cell above the brainstem and waves the Bright Red Murder Flag in front of what’s left. “THEY’RE HERE! THEY’RE THERE! THEY’RE EVERYWHERE! SO BEWARE!”
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“Toxic Masculinity” is a Woke term from the Librul Propaganda Machine (I got lectured once on exactly that when I used the term aloud).
“HOLY Testosterone” is the CHRISTIAN term:
https://thewartburgwatch.com/2020/02/26/was-satan-defeated-by-holy-testosterone-was-jesus-buff-professor-owen-strachan-strikes-again/
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
one of the saddest things I ever heard a mother say was a mom who claimed she had sought therapy because she thought her three-year old son with impulse-control issues was demonic. . . admittedly the behaviors were extremely and horrendous, but the use of the word ‘demonic’ seemed so startling to hear coming from the child’s mom . . . wow !
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and men came from 42 countries to be there! incredible !
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Been following a harsh reminder that women can be just as evil and abusive as men.
You can google the story of the two moms from Kansas that went missing right before Easter. Apparently her children’s paternal grandma’s filling fell out of her taco. Grandma offed the mom of the kids and her pastor’s wife who was court appointed supervisor that weekend for mom’s visitation. To make it even more appalling, mom was part of a group known as God’s Misfits, sort of combo religious cult and maga to the nth degree. And looks like others in the group helped her git’er done.
Male or female, sin is still sin. Pride is still a sin. Lots of things are still sins even though we don’t like to admit it. And saying sin is still sin is not hate speech.
And the Bible is right: the wrath of man does produce the righteousness of God.
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Grandma claimed the mom’s brother was s.a.ing the kids. Their dad said the same to the court, but has recanted that and says grandma made it all up.
Even if Grandma’s tale is correct, she had no right to be judge, jury, and hangman. Nor did her cult.
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“Let’s talk about faith- the faith that runs deep and doesn’t swim in the shallow waters of Driscoll and Howerton.”
Oh Dee, how spot on you are again with your words. I would venture to guess that the real Christian men were not at this conference but instead spending their manly money on helping a fellow man who lost his job cover his rent. Buying a bag or 2 of extra groceries for the local food bank. Repairing the car of a struggling single mom. Mowing the lawn for an elderly neighbor. Letting his wife sleep in and he made the kids pancakes and then took them to the park for a few hours (that was an example from my dad). I didn’t even have to go to a conference to figure out that these are examples of true manly Christian men. I read the Bible for myself. For free.
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Muff Potter,
i vote joni mitchell or carole king. or billie holiday, grace slick, sarah vaughan….
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CMT,
“I don’t think religion is even required….
But yes, spiritual/religious groups seem to be ripe for this kind of thing. Maybe faith draws people who are a little “off” and want the adulation? Or maybe the spiritual element makes the followers more credulous and vulnerable? I don’t know but it’s unsettling.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
no doubt it shows up in many contexts.
with religion, say christianity, people are encouraged to be vulnerable. encouraged to trust invisible forces (God), their leaders, their peers…
in fact, compelled to trust or else face some penalties
(like not having faith, displeasing God, not measuring up, not being a legitimate christian, not being a member of the group, being ostracized, looked down on, being suspect, a threat, ejection from the group…)
one is not allowed to speak up and dissent and still remain part of the group. passive compliance is the only option.
so, extravert, charisma, and narcissism are rewarded at the top
passive compliance is rewarded for everyone else
church leaders simply have too much to lose.
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R’as al Ghul,
” Maybe some day a church can headline the following “Puppet Show & Mark Driscoll”
+++++++++++++++++++++++
perfect.
indeed-a-rama……. indeedy-doo-dah…
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I think you two are on to something. Sounds like he was just plugging his book Jezebel Spirit. If there is no such thing as bad publicity, then Mark had a highly successful conference appearance!
I find the whole conference weird / fake / immature / inauthentic.
There’s been a couple of developments here. I hope Dee is OK with me linking to Protestia. (Yeah, I know there was some history with JD, etc.)
https://protestia.com/2024/04/15/man-of-convinction-mark-driscoll-repents-of-rebuke-says-he-should-have-gotten-permission-before-he-said-it-and-stayed-quiet-if-asked/
https://protestia.com/2024/04/16/breaking-i-am-a-christian-sword-swallower-hits-back-at-mark-driscoll-for-likening-his-performance-to-a-strip-tease/
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“Hurry, Hurry, Hurry, Step Right Up To The Greatest Show On Earth!” shouts the carnival barker
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“WELCOME BACK MY FRIENDS
TO THE SHOW THAT NEVER ENDS!
WE’RE SO GLAD YOU COULD ATTEND!
COME INSIDE! COME INSIDE!”
— Emerson Lake & Palmer, “Karn Evil Nine, First Impression, Part 2”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc6ymS4NGxg
The lyrics immediately preceding these (the end of First Impression, Part 1) are even more prophetic:
“AND NOT CONTENT WITH THAT
WITH OUR HANDS BEHIND OUR BACKS
WE PULL JESUS FROM A HAT!
LOOK AT THAT! LOOK AT THAT!
ROLL UP!
ROLL UP!
ROLL UP!
SEE THE SHOOOOOOOW!!!”
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Step back a bit and just think what that sounds like.
“CHRISTIAN Sword Swallower”.
Too much like “Just like Fill-in-the-Blank, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
Or it could mean he only swallows CHRISTIAN swords…
Too weird for this Hobbit…
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“Let’s talk about faith – the faith that runs deep and doesn’t swim in the shallow waters of Driscoll and Howerton …”
… or Pastor Lindell who hosted this sad spectacle at James River Church, who posted on Facebook “We had a ton of fun”. Thousands from 42 countries attended the conference; must have brought in a ton of money, serving up that ton of fun!
Actors would have no stage if they didn’t have an audience willing to buy tickets to the show. So, the beat goes on.
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“We do not need to jump up and down, coming up with bigger and better ideas to get noticed. Good night, people! Is not the Gospel enough?”
Bill Hybels is the father of easy-church, seeker-friendly, Christianity Lite. He essentially asked folks what they wanted in church and then got out in front to lead them … the Willow Creek model was born. What went on at James River Church is a ramped up new version of that church model which has been successful for decades. It’s another gospel which is not ‘the’ Gospel. It produces disciples unable to swim in deep water, unable to stand against the storm, unable to hear the voice of God.
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Or maybe (hopefully) they’ll just get lost backstage in Cleveland.
Excellent reference.
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I love this. In these actions you mention, there is no stage or applause or audience; just unheralded everyday acts of love, unnoticed by everyone…except Jesus.
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I vote for all of them too.
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Or Ten-Cent Beer Night in Cleveland (a classic tale from Baseball history):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxTtzLUteDA
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Typo correction: grandma, not mom, was one of God’s Misfits.
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Back in the Eighties, radio talk-show host Rich Buhler had a favorite tag line:
“God lives in the Real World.” (Which echoes the N.T.Wright series we’ve had here the last few Sundays.)
And a lot of Christians DON’T. To them, Reality is “of the World, the Flesh, and the Devil” and shifting as far as possible away from Reality is “In the Spirit”. Add “More Spiritual Than Thou” one-upmanship and…
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Narcissistic church leaders will have nothing to do with this kind of ministry … it’s all about them … they must be noticed and adored.
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My apologies, I’ve only read as far as this in the comments so I might be repeating what someone has already written….
Has anyone considered, given all the information in Dee’s OP and the links she provided, the picture of a tank on top of some cars, and combining the information with “Pastor” Doug Wilson and Moscow, Idaho, that this is the continuation of the ongoing building of a militia / white supremacist movement?
Remember the January 6 insurrection on Capitol Hill….and this is a presidential election year in the U.S.
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“Just like the Manosphere, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
And in Manosphere-speak, there are no “Women”.
Only “females”, “femoids”, “foids”, “hoes”, “THOTs”, and “304s”.
With as loose a definition of “witch” as is necessary.
But then, that’s what Taking Back America and Restoring a Truly CHRISTIAN Nation is for.
(Come to think of it, isn’t “Jezebel Spirit” or “Witch” Christian Manosphere-speak for “She Uppity”?)
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
I’m a dumpy, surburban mom-of-10 in my late 50s, but all of this really makes me want to get a Jezebel Spirit.
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Those people don’t want a democracy, they want a dictatorship.
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i.e. “Just like The Turner Diaries, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
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As long as it’s a CHRISTIAN Dictatorship under a CHRISTIAN leader like Vladimir Putin enforcing CHRISTIAN Pelvic Morality. With US as His Patriarch Kyril, seated at His right and left hands!
Remember the last dialog line between the two Author Self-Inserts in Left Behind: Volume 12, exiting the Timeless Halls after receiving a new Arda (if not a new Ea) from the hand of Eru Iluvatar Himself?
“Now we can finally build a Truly CHRISTIAN Nation.”
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Muff Potter,
Just like the “muscular christians” and the church / state complex during my lifetime, they hate boys too. See also Gus at 6.08 hours.
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Cynthia W,
I’ve not yet read past your comment, so someone else might’ve already commented on this….
I’d say you explained things VERY effectively. 🙂
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researcher,
Thank you. It’s very kind of you to say so.
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I love the way the geezer in the clip slides gingerly down his mountainous automobile, instead of launching himself, doted on by thousands of angels lest he dash his glass slipper . . .
Mark D, like James Charles, is too big to “be allowed to fail”. There is a park for everything now, even inflatable themes.
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To clarify 10.05, second para, the parallel is that instead of being free and easy with fashion (I love that woman’s suit) or “the spirit” as we genuinely were in much of my younger day, nowadays it is studied multi-layered equivocation, no-one can tell what about. MD might pretend to be irritated to be compared and not enough contrasted to JC . . .
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I have faith in the American people as a whole who do not support these nut-bags (Wilson et al.). I also have confidence that they (far right ideologues) will never acquire the power they so desperately crave.
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I love your thoughts so much, I just had to repeat the whole thing. I think you’re on to something very true about the church-entertainment-complex. Downthread, someone talks about real, christian men. Let me expand….
Our friend, Max, as an example. Clinging to the Word, to God’s love as seen in Jesus, and love for those “harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd”, Real Christian men are willing to trust in Jesus for transformation, not my 7 step process, my newest conference, my favorite speaker, group of speakers,authors, websites. Real Christian men can be found at Children’s Hospital, comforting those who are watching their children die. Real Christian men can be found at the shelter, the AA meeting, the auto shop, at the cashier, anonymously paying for a single Mom. They can be found at the baseball diamond, coaching a youth team of mostly misfit and fatherless boys. I could go on and on and I’m sure you can too. Dear God, I’m sick and tired of the macho-Jesus, testosterone-Jesus, rich-Jesus, that is paraded in front of men who should know better. “I’d rather have Jesus than anything this world affords today.”
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“I’d rather be led by His nail-scarred hand”
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I keep thinking of “Mojo Jojo”, the uplifted monkey supervillian from The Powerpuff Girls whose shtick was long-winded villain monologues.
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The two go together.
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Something that is a big red flag for Manosphere-speak:
The inconsistent combination “MEN and FEMALES”.
Not “Men and Women” or “Males and Females”, but “MEN and FEMALES”.
(Or any one of the other words for “Women” above.)
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I just had to say it.
“What else burns?”
“More Witches!”
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Max,
Late to this thread, but laughing my head off at this comment! Thanks, Max.
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Michael in UK,
If ya’ don’t eatcher’ meat, you can’t have any pudding!
How can you have any pudding if you don’t eatcher’ meat?
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You! Yes, you behind the bike stands
Stand still, laddy!
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Oh, that Dopamine Rush! Over and Over!
Keyed into one and only one trigger!
Just like Crack, Crystal Meth, and killer Social Media Algorithms.