ARC’s Robert Morris: Paul Preached “Under the Influence”

Satan prowls but he’s a lion on a leash” ― Ann Voskamp link

Screen Shot from Twitter Account

Update: This post appears to be also "under the infuence." It keeps trying to put extra spacing in paragraphs in the post. Please bear with us.

We are frequently asked by readers to list *red flags* to look for when considering a church. We are so blessed to have the Internet. The vast majority of churches have websites which often describe, in detail, what the distinctives are for their particular church. It is our opinion that all Christians should thoroughly read church websites prior to visiting a church for the first time. It can save them a wasted visit if red flags are identified from the start. In fact, many seem to be doing just that.

In the last 12 months, over 17 million American adults who don’t regularly attend worship services visited the website of a local church or place of worship

In fact, the Deebs like to read through church websites as a hobby because we often find fascinating details of the uniqueness of church practices. People ask us where we get our ideas for posts? Church websites! Always look at:

  • The history of the church
  • Their statement of faith
  • Their affiliations
  • Recommended resources
  • Sermons

Google the particular church and see if there have been any lawsuits, controversies, political efforts, etc. Also, look for sites like Yahoo whose readers rate the church. None of these are conclusive on their own but together they can form an initial picture. Then, go to the church and see if the church lives out what is on the website.

Now, back to Robert Morris. What I write about today is easily discovered on the Gateway website. 

Be careful when any church emphasizes demons or miracles. Weirdness is bound to follow.

The Epistles rarely discuss the miracles of Jesus. When one looks through the eyes of Paul, we see, instead, an emphasis on the Cross and Resurrection. The miracles of Jesus served as *proof* that he was who He said He was. Miracles were not to be the norm of the Christian life.

Take a look at the Apostles who should have been Ground Zero for miracles. All, except for John, died martyr' lives. John was imprisoned on Patmos. Paul spent much time in jail and we are not talking country club prisons here. None of them lived lives in large homes in exclusive communities.

God did not see fit to swoop on in and give them the Blessed Life. Or, was the blessed life something entirely different than that which is envisioned by Robert Morris and other members of the ARC?

Always ask questions. This is a TWW mantra.

For example, are miracles to be as considered normative for *real* Christians. The ARC seems to think so. Adjusting for socioeconomic factors (wealthy people have better access to healthcare, for example) are the Christians in that church healthier? They should be. Do they have fewer accidents? Bet not. Have any been raised from the dead? Not on your life! Yet, Chris Hodges and Robert Morris seem to promise lots of miracles for their followers link and link.

At Gateway, the emphasis on demons is hidden under code terminology such as *Freedom Ministry*, *the Blessed Life*, etc. If you do some reading under these topics, the reality swiftly comes to light. I do give props to Gateway Church. They have enough information on their website that anyone with average search skills can uncover lots of information in about 5 minutes. 

Robert Morris believes that the Apostle Paul was afflicted by a demon. This is problematic.

Visit the position paper page at Gateway's website. This is a gold mine if you are trying to determine if you agree with Morris. Under the paper titled Freedom Ministry (think code word here), I found Morris' rationale for believing that Christians can be demon afflicted. He uses the term influence which is then exerted over a Christian. He also equivocates on the issue of possession. Read his words carefully.

We must first realize that any time we read the term “demon possessed” in English, this is not the phrase used in the original language of Scripture. Two common terms in the Greek, the language of the New Testament, are “daimonion echei,” translated “has a devil” (Luke 8:27), or “daimonizomenou” (John 10:21), best understood as “demonized.” In neither case is the term “demon possessed” found in the original language. In fact in the case of the first phrase, the implication is just the opposite. The spirit does not have the person; the person has the spirit.

Although realizing this does not address the issue of a born-again believer and demonization, it is important to understand that the issue is influence and not necessarily possession. Satan did not have to claim ownership of Adam and Eve to exert influence over them. 

Here is where it gets interesting. Paul has a demon who is physically in him! (Red alert!!!) Also, watch out for the word *clearly* when used to support a controversial opinion. Ask this. If it is so clear, then why is there so much disagreement over the matter by people who truly want to do the right thing?

Regarding that same influence with born-again believers, our clearest scriptural example is found in 2 Corinthians 12:7 (NASB). Paul states: “because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me—to keep me from exalting myself!”

The apostle Paul testifies concerning himself that God sent a “messenger of Satan” (angelos) to be a thorn in his flesh (sarki). These phrases clearly indicate that an angel of Satan was in the physical person of Paul. The same position of influence described in the encounters with Jesus is indicated even more clearly in Paul’s own description of his condition. 

Now comes the hooker. Exactly what do the demons influence? Everything and the kitchen sink, it seems…

It is our position that demonic forces can influence a person in varying degrees from an external position as well as an internal position. The body and the soul (mind, will and emotions) can provide a haven for influencing spirits. The spirit of a born-again believer is the Holy Spirit of God, but as Paul makes clear, we can either live by the flesh or live by the Spirit. When we live by the flesh, we give the devil an opportunity (topos—a place or geographical location, Ephesians 4:27). 

What is wrong with this picture?
 
A number of things…

First, think about the role Paul played in the founding of the nascent church. Paul was the author of the majority of the Epistles. Those Epistles have influenced doctrine, church governance, missions, an understanding of the Cross and Resurrection, etc. If he was under the influence of a demon, in his body, in his mind and in his will, then how do we know it didn't affect the Letters? Have we built the church based on the writings of a man under the influence of the evil one?!! How can we ever trust any pastor, teacher or even one another, if, at any juncture, he/we could be "under the influence?" 
 
Always check the context of a Bible verse.

Read before and after. So, look a little closer at 2 Corinthians 12:7-10
Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions,in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.


It is evident that, if this was demon, Paul was NOT delivered from it. He prayed and asked 3 times that *it* would be taken away. Assuming that Paul knew how to get rid of a demon just as effectively as Morris does, why was he ineffective? Does this mean that God will not only send a demon to indwell/influence a person's mind, body and soul but will keep the demon inside the person for his own good? And, if God thinks it is good for us to have a demon, why would we want to be delivered from it? None of this makes much sense to this Christian.

Ask why a verse is standing apart from its context.

So, why didn't Morris include all of the verses surrounding verse 7? Always ask why certain verses are picked out of context and placed by themselves. You know the old saw:

 

A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text.

Check a bunch of sources for historical understanding.
 
I read about 10 commentaries on this passage and not one of them claimed that Paul was "under the influence." Many commentaries refer to to the book of Job for an example. God did not *deliver* Job from the destruction. Yet, at no time did God say that Job was "under the influence."
 
Bad things happen to people who are following God as well as those who do not follow God. Sometimes Satan stirs the pot. However, God is ultimately in control. In this particularly instance, whatever Paul's thorn was, Paul understood that it was for his ultimate good. Robert Morris' assumption of Paul's experience is left wanting. 

There is no evidence in Scripture that demons ever inhabited believers. Also, believers were not instructed to get rid of demons from other believers link
 
There is no clear example in the Bible where a demon ever inhabited or invaded a true believer. Never in the New Testament epistles are believers warned about the possibility of being inhabited by demons. Neither do we see anyone rebuking, binding, or casting demons out of a true believer. The epistles never instruct believers to cast out demons, whether from a believer or unbeliever. Christ and the apostles were the only ones who cast out demons, and in every instance the demon-possessed people were unbelievers.

Here is Morris' conclusion.

It is our position that demonic forces can influence a person in varying degrees from an external position as well as an internal position. The body and the soul (mind, will and emotions) can provide a haven for influencing spirits. The spirit of a born-again believer is the Holy Spirit of God, but as Paul makes clear, we can either live by the flesh or live by the Spirit. When we live by the flesh, we give the devil an opportunity (topos—a place or geographical location, Ephesians 4:27). 

Resources
 
 Always, always, always check the resources that a church offers. Scroll to the bottom of the linked position paper. There you will find The Bondage Breakers by Neil Anderson. That should be enough to raise the hairs on your neck. If you don't know to what I am referring, join in on Wednesday whenI tell you all about demons who bite people and write scary messages to them. The X Files were tame compared to this!

Let me leave you with Martin Luther's A MIghty Fortress Is Our God; verses 3, 4.
 

And though this world, with devils filled, should threaten to undo us,
We will not fear, for God hath willed His truth to triumph through us:
The Prince of Darkness grim, we tremble not for him;
His rage we can endure, for lo, his doom is sure,
One little word shall fell him.

That word above all earthly powers, no thanks to them, abideth;
The Spirit and the gifts are ours through Him Who with us sideth:
Let goods and kindred go, this mortal life also;
The body they may kill: God’s truth abideth still,
His kingdom is forever.

 

Lydia's Corner: Genesis 28:1-29:35 Matthew 9:18-38 Psalm 11:1-7 Proverbs 3:11-12

Comments

ARC’s Robert Morris: Paul Preached “Under the Influence” — 210 Comments

  1. These people make the Independent Fundamentalist Baptists with whom I used to hang around look like rookies when it comes to taking scriptures out of context*. I’m almost impressed, except that the degree of twisting that they’ve done is downright scary!

    * The best one I heard, which happened at a church that a friend used to attend, was that Psalm 147:10, which says “…he taketh not pleasure in the legs of a man” meant that men should never wear shorts (that women should always wear ankle-length skirts was assumed without proof).

  2. It’s easy to see why demons are such an important part of RM’s “teaching”: because, as he has said, you open the door to demons if you don’t tithe. Demons are the stick he uses to squeeze more money out of his, let’s call them that for now, pewsitters.

    Wonder what his carrot is. Come to think of it, I don’t want to know.

  3. I wonder if these guys think Paul was ” demon possessed ” because he wrote that you need to “give what you feel from your heart.” Not the 10% they insist that you tithe?
    (Afraid you might think 3-6% might be good enough…)

  4. And all this time I thought St Paul’s “thorn in the flesh” was some sort of chronic medical problem. (Which would fit into my church’s miracle tradition where saints who were known for healing miracles could never heal their own chronic afflictions.)

  5. Gus wrote:

    It’s easy to see why demons are such an important part of RM’s “teaching”: because, as he has said, you open the door to demons if you don’t tithe.

    How’s that different from Hexerai, where the witch-man sics his familiar spirits/enforcers on you if you don’t give him whatever he wants?

  6. When it comes to red flags, one of the biggest I come across is when someone preaches a system found nowhere in Scripture. Morris’ take on demons influencing believers falls squarely within that camp.

  7. Dee – yeah, The Bondage Breaker was *everywhere* once the NAR began coming to the fore. The author wrote other, related books that are worth checking into for researvh purposes.

    As for Morris and Koine Greek… no.words.

    These guys immediately bring to mind the passage that says, “‘Lord, Lord, did we not do…'” to mind.

  8. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    And all this time I thought that the main contestant for what was Paul’s thorn in the flesh might be his eyesight, based on one unexplained comment from Paul. Trachoma perhaps since it was prevalent in that area. Somebody suggested that St. Francis of Assis’s eye disease was the same thing contracted in the same endemic area. Now I don’t know, but I think this story is a better story than what Morris came up with.

  9. @ Nancy:

    But then, tithe or you will get trachoma probably would not do much for the collection plate. Too easy to refute with evidence, don’t you know.

  10. numo wrote:

    The Bondage Breaker was *everywhere* once the NAR began coming to the fore.

    Yep- then there were the infamous incubi and succubi- this is going to be interesting. So, do you think it would be appropriate to title that post Neil Anderson Says Bite Me?

  11. srs wrote:

    So you clearly found that some of their theology was bunk…

    So now what happens? Think about it. Driscoll is playing footsie with him and if Driscoll plays footsie, so will a lot of his Acts 29 fans. I am not talking about Matt Chandler here. I am talking about the foot soldiers who signed up for the network because Driscoll was their man.

    We know about the demon trials that were reportedly going on at Mars Hill under Mark “I See Things” Driscoll. So, is it going on elsewhere and will it go on if Driscoll decided to float on the ARC?

    Being forewarned is important.

  12. Gus wrote:

    Demons are the stick he uses to squeeze more money out of his, let’s call them that for now, pewsitters.

    I prefer ATM machines.

  13. Well, what better way to generate a persistent threat that never goes away? Taking a step back from all of this for just a moment, what precisely would Christ have conquered on the cross if this were indeed the case for a believer?

    I think circa Job any believer is subject to afflictions, but that’s not an immediate logical leap to demon possession of a believer.

    I’ve seen this doctrine, or it’s first cousin, in a number of Pentecostal circles. It ends up sounding like an insurance racket. Jesus effectively dies on the cross for everything but demon possession, so pay the family a fee and we’ll make sure nothing bad happens.

  14. Non-believers look at the incredible fracturing and twisting of the Gospel message in the hands of clowns like RM, MD, and all the other creeps that are discussed here. You simply can not blame anyone for thinking that Christianity is a joke. I did for years, for just that reason. Though I always loved Jesus. Which saved me.

    Anyone, it seems, can set up shop as a Man-a-gawd, preach what he thinks the rubes, I mean pew-sitters, I mean ATM’s want to hear. At some point people actually take these people seriously. To the average non-believer, Christianity seems to be a joke, because of people like RM, et al. To an average non-believer, otherwise ready to hear the Good News, they hear these people and think ‘I do not want to be in the same club with that grinning idiot’. What incalculable damage has been done by these charlatans!

    It makes me so sad.

  15. DH wrote:

    Jesus effectively dies on the cross for everything but demon possession,

    Let me show you how you could twist this further if you follow it to its logical conclusion. There were many eyewitnesses to the resurrection of Jesus. What would happen if all of them were *influenced* by demons? Maybe they didn’t see what they thought they saw.

  16. What angers me to no end about some of this stuff is how many churches are silent or use the materials of people without doing their homework. Would you go to a doctor on a whim without knowing his specialty, practice or reputation? Would you go to a dentist without checking his credentials and a solid referral? Would you get a buy agent to find your new home without finding his credentials or reputation? No, No, No…. So why do so many Christians blindly walk into a church, use someone’s material without checking him out on a whim. It boggles my mind.

    Here’s another thing that angers me…why are so many preachers silent on the prosperity theology crowd? Their silence is going to cost their members and attenders dearly when they buy into that crap and then deal with something like cancer in the course of time.

  17. Just wanted to share a little bit of good news. My husband’s toxic interim gm was replaced with a permanent gm of much higher quality. I started my part-time job this past week so we might actually be able to pay all of our bills this month and on time too.

    Back on topic- Mr. Morris, my husband and I still don’t plan on tithing this month (rent kind of takes priority). This particular family’s ATM only spits out Monopoly money if that helps anybody. Feel free to claim that we are demon possessed. I’m pretty sure I already am as I have an unknown autoimmune disease that likes to destroy my joints. 🙂 Thank goodness for vitamin A (also known as vitamin-advil).

  18. dee wrote:

    There were many eyewitnesses to the resurrection of Jesus. What would happen if all of them were *influenced* by demons? Maybe they didn’t see what they thought they saw.

    At which point, you can say “HI!” to “Do I Even Exist? Or is that what THEY want me to think?”

  19. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    At which point, you can say “HI!” to “Do I Even Exist? Or is that what THEY want me to think?”

    …which is found in the same general area as “How do I know all of you aren’t just a figment of my imagination?” and “What if we’re all living in the Matrix?”

  20. Eagle wrote:

    Corban Martinez love your comments….with your sarcasm you can almost be an Eagle 2.0!

    Lol, I can try, but I don’t think I’ll succeed. Fundegelical, is it? I forgot. Anyway, genius and accurate.

  21. dee wrote:

    Am I actually lying in a vat of goo keeping the computers powered?

    dee wrote:

    You and I are thinking along the same lines.

    So it seems. 😀

  22. The teachings on demon influence are very similar to the old word of faith, Hagan, Copeland and company. Many initial adult members of the Church of the Highlands were followers of the word of faith. Those who have pointed out the crafty use of having to tithe for protection are correct. In addition, those who preach this false doctrine often turn on those who point out the twisting of scripture. The preachers claim that those who question the preachers are blinded by the influence of demons. Thus, they protect a lie by another lie. For those who are willingly deceived, the preachers cannot be questioned by others about this teaching. An environment of ruling by fear is created. Growth happens for a while, years, as people are led to come under the “protection”. However, I have seen many such organizations ultimately decline, (like the AOG and WOF predecessors of ARC).

  23. Ah…this, too, is familiar theology.

    As to the ‘thorn in Paul’s side,’ I have heard the theory that it was his eyesight. I’ve also heard the theory that is was a particular group of Judiazers who followed him from town to town to stir up the locals against him. Who knows….

    As to the doctrine that Christians can be ‘demonized,’ well….that is the theory they use to explain everything that doesn’t line up with their teaching, i.e., that if you do everything we tell you, your life will be roses and cupcakes. They have to have some way (other than ‘you’re not believing hard enough) to explain why their doctrine isn’t actually working. Kid’s got the flu? Demons. Didn’t get that raise? Demons. Can’t keep your eyes off the ladies (men)? Demons. Stubbed your toe? Demons. Prayed and didn’t get healed? Demons…..and so it goes. Suffering from PTSD? Demons.

    And it creates in the rank and file and obsession with whether the people sitting next to you need to be delivered from a demon….and whether you yourself need delivered. It is a twisted version of ‘sin-sniffing.’ There was a point that they almost had me thinking I was possessed. Sigh.

    If you want more on this idea, google Bob Larson…but don’t say I didn’t warn you. He used to (may still) have a regular show on TBN.

  24. @ Corbin Martinez:

    Yup Fundagelical…don’t forget there is also the Reformed Industrial Complex and make sure you throw the word “Gospel” in front of what ever you are doing and you are covered. For example….

    Hungry? Don’t waste that appetite!! Go to McDonald’s and get a “Gospel Centered Quarter Pounder” and “Gospel Centered Fries” and “Gospel Centered 32 oz Drink” Don’t forget the “Gospel Centered Apple Pie” 😛 Make sure you shave your head in the process so you’ll look crafty and in.

    And above all else if you face discipline The Wartburg Watch has THE measurements of the size of Mark Dever’s skirt that CJ hid behind. Just ask my East Coast Mom for the details! 😛

    Should I get going about Mark Driscoll? It could actually be a plot for a one of those cheesy pornographic movies. And of course it will be “Gospel Centered”

  25. I swear I’m gonna get some good-earth-clay together, fashion a Golem from it just like rabbi Judah Loew ben Bezalel did in Prague (circa 1580), and sic him on Morris!

  26. And people say Catholics are “crazy” given they have had a ministry of exorcism for the last two thousand years. Compared to Morris (and Bob Larson), they get it so much more right on this issue and treat this topic in a much saner manner too!

  27. Have you seen these parodies on Youtube to Frozen’s “Do You Want to Build a Snow Man?”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SDIc6bGw9w

    One of these days someone should do a parody called “Do You Want to Go to Sovereign Grace?” It could be something like this….

    (5 knocks)
    Do you want to go to Sovereign Grace?
    I want to get brainwashed!!
    Instant family, friends and destroyed lives all in one!
    It gets a little lonely, but there I can be shepherded!!
    Do you want to go to Sovereign Grace?

    Do you want to go to Sovereign Grace?
    I want to shave my head!!
    I want to hear about Carolyn hugging the toilet and CJ talking about being a man!!
    Do you want to go to Sovereign Grace?
    I want to be in a cult…. 😯

  28. Eagle wrote:

    This is a good example of a Mars Hill service when Mark Driscoll was at the helm. Its also a plug for his book “Real Marriage”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll2-1W7bukM

    Lol just about.

    I’ve read a little of real marrige in barnes and nobles. In my opinion it makes marriage seem shallow. I mean, how can you have John piper Pre-Martial fear of the opposite sex, then get married and be as horny as you possibly can be? I guess that’s having your Bible and hot girl, too. Like a REAL Christian man.

  29. Eagle wrote:

    Hungry? Don’t waste that appetite!! Go to McDonald’s and get a “Gospel Centered Quarter Pounder” and “Gospel Centered Fries” and “Gospel Centered 32 oz Drink” Don’t forget the “Gospel Centered Apple Pie” Make sure you shave your head in the process so you’ll look crafty and in.

    They really do have an impressive and annoying media department. How sad to take a word so filled with power and beauty as “Gospel” and make it as commercial as “iPhone” or “app”.

  30. Dee,

    I agree with much of what you say on thw blog and with your overall assessment of Robert Morris. Your bs meter is spot on. That being said, I think a legitimate textual argument can be made for a continuation of spiritual gifts and that the Scriptures do not necessitate a cessationist view point. Obviously, there are numerous misunderstandings and abuses surrounding spiritual gifts including but not limited to the more miraculous seeming ones. All that to say, as one who thinks the gifts have continued I would like to not necessarily be thrown by association into the Driscoll crowd or Morris following:)

  31. Someone mentioned Bob Lar$on, I have been in a airport motel room at a Bob concert. I have to admit he reached a new low bringing in his teenage daughter into the circus. It did get him on tv and a few reality shows so that justifies him using his kid and her friends. It always will. I do mean it always will, twice on Sunday, kids are a good commodity to use in increasing market share. I could never do that, goes to show what a degenerate I am. Bob is a nut, but he is smart, sort of, back in the 80’s as a young christian I knew he was using shills on his call in show, I have been to many “ministry” meetings where the shills line up and the real sick people are sent to be in the off site tent. He did a stint in eastern Europe and freaked out several rather mentally ill people, but he did make money so no biggie.

    I dont get people why do they believe in magic and voodoo, no offense to true practitioners of the Craft or traditional Santeria they got alot more cred that bob lar$on ever will.

  32. @ dee:
    Apologies – I was trying to be clever/humorous by underlying the “clearly”. (but apparently the u tags don’t work in the comments. attempt

  33. It gets better (or worse). According to one page I looked at, these guys not only believe that Christians can be possessed by demons, they believe that God wants present day Christians to take dominion over the earth.

    However, in their thinking, Christians taking dominion cannot be done unless and until they clear demons out (these are demons who have influence over millions of people and these demons control specific geographic locations). They believe they have to do research to figure out which specific demons control which areas.

    According to the page I read, this is referred to by NAR guys as “Strategic-Level Spiritual Warfare.”

    The page goes on and on in quite some detail about what these NAR guys believe and practice:
    http://www.apologeticsindex.org/2977-new-apostolic-reformation-overview

    There’s lots and lots of nutty stuff on that page.

  34. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    How’s that different from Hexerai, where the witch-man sics his familiar spirits/enforcers on you if you don’t give him whatever he wants?

    It isn’t, except that it is gospel™ extortion, and that makes it biblical™.

  35. dee wrote:

    I prefer ATM machines.

    Yeah, but the problem with ATM machines is that you normally have to earn the money (by more or less) legitimate means. RM’s church members ARE his ATM.

  36. @ Brandon F:

    If I am correct the catholic attitude toward demonology, exorcism and such has been modified in practice over the centuries as new actual evidence became available. This, I think, is what makes the catholic approach far better than the rest. Demon possession is a diagnosis of exclusion (when other things have been ruled out.) I am good with that. There is nothing extreme or unreasonable about that. Now, as with any large organization there are people who do not follow the rules, so care has to be taken in being explicit just what one is talking about, but that sort of thing happens with all groups and organizations and belief systems.

  37. About 12 years ago, when I was a new xian and engaged, I was came across “Christ-Centered Marriage” (Neil Anderson) in a goodwill. Got it and read it. Thought it was really strange how there was this ritual at the end of the book to be released from demons (this is probably why it was at goodwill in the first place!). Haven’t looked at it since, it’s probably vacationing in the attic. With all the recent TWW posts, I feel like I dodged a bullet with this one. Now to make sure it’s out of my house so my house will not be under any evil influence!

  38. Nancy wrote:

    @ Brandon F:

    If I am correct the catholic attitude toward demonology, exorcism and such has been modified in practice over the centuries as new actual evidence became available. This, I think, is what makes the catholic approach far better than the rest. Demon possession is a diagnosis of exclusion (when other things have been ruled out.) I am good with that. There is nothing extreme or unreasonable about that. Now, as with any large organization there are people who do not follow the rules, so care has to be taken in being explicit just what one is talking about, but that sort of thing happens with all groups and organizations and belief systems.

    Nancy, that was precisely my point. Charismatic fundagelicals like Morris scare the bejesus out of me and make me worry about what fellow brothers and sisters in Christ are getting fed on. A demon has possessed or influenced you so you can’t tithe?!?! That’s a crock to me. But yet so many fall for it hook, line & sinker.

  39. theologian23 wrote:

    hat being said, I think a legitimate textual argument can be ma

    I am not a cessationist. I am a partial cessationist just like I am a partial preterist. What do I mean by that? I have yet to hear of one credible claim of people being raised from the dead which Chris Hodges believes should be happening. I do not believe that everyone should speak in tongues and I believe that Christians are empowered with the Holy Spirit at the time of conversion. I see no evidence that any charismatic group that practices second baptism has any more healings, conversions, or faith than those who do not.

    My husband became a Christian through a charismatic group called the Dartmouth Area Christian Fellowship when he was at Dartmouth. Although we do not attend a charismatic church, he is sympathetic to that point of view.

    I am so sorry if these posts come across that way. TWW calls into question many viewpoints within subsets of the evangelical arena. We became aware of the ARC a year ago due to the Dino Rizzo embarrassment and then with the Steven Furtick story.

    When Driscoll fell into Morris’ temporarily demon free arms, we decided to focus on that ministry along with exploring some of the evangelical set’s more questionable demon related activities and beliefs. As I said at the beginning of this series, I believe in Satan and the demons.

    I just ordered Peter Wagner’s book on “The Queen of Heaven” who he claimed was a demon that ruled somewhere on this earth.I will do a report on it. Wagner is an interesting guy, having been a professor at Fuller for a number of years. His beliefs show how a grounded Christian can quickly go off track when emphasizing areas like demonism.

  40. srs wrote:

    Apologies

    Do not apologize.It is unnecessary. I received an unapproved comment saying that this post was not a story. I wondered if i hadn’t made my point clearly enough so I thought a comment clarifying my intent was in order.

  41. “I now bring the authority, rule, and dominion of the Lord Jesus Christ over my life today, over my home, my family, my household, my vehicles, finances, over all my kingdom and domain. I now bring the authority, rule, and dominion of the Lord Jesus Christ and the fullness of the work of Christ against Satan, against his kingdom, against every foul and unclean spirit—every ruler, power, authority, and spiritual force of wickedness, their every weapon, claim, and device. [At this point, I specifically name all foul and unclean spirits that I know have been attacking me, such as fear, doubt, accident, injury, death, the religious spirit, pride, arrogance, etc.] I send all foul and unclean spirits bound to the throne of Christ, together with every back-up and replacement, every weapon, claim, and device—by the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ and in his name. I command the judgment of the Lord Jesus Christ upon the heads of those that refuse to obey, and I send them to judgment, by the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ and in his name.”

    http://ransomedheart.com/prayer/daily-prayer-extended-version

    quite widespread this excessive demonology I think in the Evangelical world. Whats wrong with the Lord’s Prayer – deliver us from the Evil One ?

  42. Another comment from TWW’s curmudgeon not approved. TWW writes posts of interest to us. We started this blog wondering if anyone else would be interested in what we liked to talk about and explore. We jab stuck to the knitting since that time. There are many blogs out there. Better yet, curmudgeon, start your own.You can then see how others like what you have to say…

  43. Lola wrote:

    Thought it was really strange how there was this ritual at the end of the book to be released from demons (this is probably why it was at goodwill in the first place!).

    There are plenty of weird things when it come to Anderson. he is another example of a guy with a good education getting sidetracked.

    Your comment made me laugh. I don’t suppose you have heard Pat Robertson’s thoughts on Goodwill?

    “one should always pray over sweaters purchased from the local Goodwill in order to prevent demons from entering their house. ”

    http://www.ibtimes.com/pat-robertson-claims-second-hand-goodwill-sweaters-might-carry-demons-1106562

    Think about it. A book about demons may be influenced by demons if you follow Robertson’s logic. too funny!

  44. Daisy wrote:

    these guys not only believe that Christians can be possessed by demons, they believe that God wants present day Christians to take dominion over the earth.

    We will be looking at some of that stuff in the weeks to come.

    Also for taking dominion over the earth, I can’t even outsmart one persistent raccoon and possum who drive my pugs nuts and mess up my bird feeder.

  45. Mandy wrote:

    Just wanted to share a little bit of good news. My husband’s toxic interim gm was replaced with a permanent gm of much higher quality. I started my part-time job this past week so we might actually be able to pay all of our bills this month and on time too.

    I am so glad!

  46. dee wrote:

    Think about it. A book about demons may be influenced by demons if you follow Robertson’s logic. too funny!

    Yeah, but actually if Satan (however understood) is the father of lies, then might he not put out erroneous information about himself if it were to his advantage to do so? LIke, we (demons) are bigger and badder than you think so now aren’t you scared, and aren’t you disappointed in your alleged “savior” sine we have more power to destroy you than he has to save you?” But give this guy money (tithe) and maybe that will help.

    That sort of thing is clearly a lie and I am thinking would serve the purposes of the father of lies out prowling around seeking whom he could destroy. Sorry if that sounds too conspiratorial, but It certainly looks possible to me.

  47. dee wrote:

    Another comment from TWW’s curmudgeon not approved. TWW writes posts of interest to us. We started this blog wondering if anyone else would be interested in what we liked to talk about and explore. We jab stuck to the knitting since that time. There are many blogs out there. Better yet, curmudgeon, start your own.You can then see how others like what you have to say…

    I think he has one & posted a link once…. or was it a nightmare I had?
    Curmudgeon is a British Approved word

  48. Paul wrote:

    quite widespread this excessive demonology I think in the Evangelical world. Whats wrong with the Lord’s Prayer – deliver us from the Evil One ?

    Thank you for this example. I plan to do a post showing some of the muddled thinking out there when it comes to demons. I will add this comment into it.

    Did you notice that there is a demon of accidents? Good night!

  49. dee wrote:

    “one should always pray over sweaters purchased from the local Goodwill in order to prevent demons from entering their house. ”

    Does that include the 100% wool sweaters I purchase in order to destroy and re-use the yarn in another knitting project? If I don’t, will that newly knitted item then be possessed? Perhaps that’s why my children are acting up! They have re-knit demon sweaters on!

    [I’m totally laughing as I type this, it’s just absurd the possible tangents!]

  50. dee wrote:

    Did you notice that there is a demon of accidents? Good night!

    Try “the DEMON of burned-out lightbulbs” sometime.

    “DEMONS! DEMONS! DEEEMONS! SHEEKA-BOOM-BAH! BAM!!!”

  51. Lola wrote:

    [I’m totally laughing as I type this, it’s just absurd the possible tangents!]

    Even more absurd: All the preacher-men and Bible types going into intricate detail down all the tangents. (Ever heard of some of the Jewish theological applications worked out and detailed in the Talmud?)

    These guys are poster boys for Carl Sagan’s The Demon-Haunted World.

  52. dee wrote:

    I just ordered Peter Wagner’s book on “The Queen of Heaven” who he claimed was a demon that ruled somewhere on this earth.

    Funny… Outside of Demonology-a-Go-Go, the only time I’ve heard the title “Queen of Heaven” was in connection with St Mary. “NO POPERY”, anyone?

  53. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    As to the doctrine that Christians can be ‘demonized,’ well….that is the theory they use to explain everything that doesn’t line up with their teaching, i.e., that if you do everything we tell you, your life will be roses and cupcakes. They have to have some way (other than ‘you’re not believing hard enough) to explain why their doctrine isn’t actually working.
    Kid’s got the flu? Demons.
    Didn’t get that raise? Demons.
    Can’t keep your eyes off the ladies (men)? Demons.
    Stubbed your toe? Demons.
    Prayed and didn’t get healed? Demons…..
    and so it goes.
    Suffering from PTSD? Demons.

    Light bulb burned out? DEMONS.
    Toilet stopped up? DEMONS.
    Whoopee cushion under your butt? DEMONS.

    “DEMONS! DEMONS! DEEEMONS! SHEEKA-BOOM-BAH! BAM!!!”

    “…and hail a Materialist or a Magician with equal delight.”
    — C.S.Lewis, “Preface to Screwtape Letters”

  54. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    And it creates in the rank and file and obsession with whether the people sitting next to you need to be delivered from a demon….and whether you yourself need delivered. It is a twisted version of ‘sin-sniffing.’ There was a point that they almost had me thinking I was possessed. Sigh.

    “Young Goodman Brown” by Nathaniel Hawthorne…

  55. Daisy wrote:

    It gets better (or worse). According to one page I looked at, these guys not only believe that Christians can be possessed by demons, they believe that God wants present day Christians to take dominion over the earth.

    “Take dominion” like ISIS/ISIL in their Global Caliphate?

    Imagine these Witchfinders-General and Anointed Demon Hunters with absolute power of life and death over you like the Ayatollahs of Iran. “GAWD SAITH!!!!!!”

  56. Corbin Martinez wrote:

    They really do have an impressive and annoying media department. How sad to take a word so filled with power and beauty as “Gospel” and make it as commercial as “iPhone” or “app”.

    Without wanting to steal your excellently-made point, I beg to submit a slight refinement. To wit, the word “Gospel” has become a branding prefix, like the “i” in iPhone, iTunes, iPad or iBrow.

  57. So RM is trying to scare the hell out of your wallet…

    RM, how many demons can you see on a teaspoon? The head of a pin (to go along with your pin-head theology)?

    I always thought the “thorn in the flesh” was false (defrauding) brethren…

    So where is the (Matt 28) Great Commission in all of this???

  58. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    That is *exactly* what they mean. Google C. Peter Wagner Operation Ice Castle and you should get plenty on this. It is directly related to some things that were happening in Catholicism in the late 90s.

  59. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Try “the DEMON of burned-out lightbulbs” sometime.

    It’s like the old joke about how many Charismatics it takes to change a light bulb. The answer goes like this: “Two. One to cast it out, and one to catch it when it falls.”

    Foot wrote:

    So RM is trying to scare the hell out of your wallet…

    Thank you for the best laugh I’ve had all day! 😀

  60. numo wrote:

    That is *exactly* what they mean. Google C. Peter Wagner Operation Ice Castle and you should get plenty on this.

    You beat me to it. Thanks for telling us, it’s hard to believe unless you read it yourself.

    By the way, what is up with all this Catholic-Phobia? I never knew how widespread it is in the church until recently.

  61. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    To wit, the word “Gospel” has become a branding prefix, like the “i” in iPhone, iTunes, iPad or iBrow.

    You’re absolutely right.

    Sometimes I wonder what’s the highest number of times John Piper has said “GOSPEL!!!!” In a single sermon.

  62. Corbin Martinez wrote:

    By the way, what is up with all this Catholic-Phobia? I never knew how widespread it is in the church until recently.

    The Treaty of Westphalia ended the Reformation Wars in 1648.

    It is now 2014, and they STILL haven’t gotten the word.

  63. Corbin Martinez wrote:

    Sometimes I wonder what’s the highest number of times John Piper has said “GOSPEL!!!!” In a single sermon.

    Make it a drinking game:
    * Every time Piper says “GOSPEL!!!!”, take a drink.
    * Every time Piper flutters his hands, take a drink.
    Just have 911 on speed-dial for alcohol poisoning.

  64. Mandy wrote:

    Back on topic- Mr. Morris, my husband and I still don’t plan on tithing this month (rent kind of takes priority).

    You need to submit them to Apostolic ministry then. On the subject of giving:

    ‘For if the readiness is there, it is acceptable according to what a man has, not according to what he has not.

    Each one must do as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.’

    I would bet my lottery winnings that you already know this, but I hope just repeating it blesses you. 🙂

    I try not to have a bee in my bonnet about religious issues, but manipulating money out of Christians they can’t afford and that would impoverish them is one issue where I don’t always succeed in this!

  65. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    The Treaty of Westphalia ended the Reformation Wars in 1648.

    It is now 2014, and they STILL haven’t gotten the word.

    Exactly. I mean, you don’t have to be a genius to know that Evangelicals are venting when they say the antichrist will be Catholic, Jewish, and gay.

  66. Corbin Martinez wrote:

    By the way, what is up with all this Catholic-Phobia? I never knew how widespread it is in the church until recently.

    I don’t know how widespread it is, but with some people it is quite intense. I am thinking that linking “the supernatural” with anti-catholicism and with politics could be a serious problem. No, I mean really serious at least potentially.

  67. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    * Every time Piper says “GOSPEL!!!!”, take a drink.
    * Every time Piper flutters his hands, take a drink.
    Just have 911 on speed-dial for alcohol poisoning.

    That’d be the hardest drinking game ever. To make it completely impossible add “Depraved” and “Sovereign”.

  68. Nancy wrote:

    I am thinking that linking “the supernatural” with anti-catholicism and with politics could be a serious problem. No, I mean really serious at least potentially.

    The first thing that comes to mind is the “Left Behind” series. Blatantly anti-Catholic, and it still makes some people keep a watch out for guillotines being constructed.

  69. I consider most of the demon preaching we see today as a scam. Preaching the love is soooo boring and hard to get people to buy into. But everybody loves a good boogeyman story and it’s so much easier to use fear as a motivator than love.

    There is no real discussion on the Bible about who and what demons are – virtually all the mentions of demons are simply statements that they were cast out and, in context, can easily be understood as mental illness (although I do confess to having no clue about what is going on with the demons Jesus cast out from Legion and into the pigs who then ran into the lake and drown). Yet guys like Morris pluck this one minor concept out of the Bible and make it foundational to their preaching just because it sells. It’s pathetic, not to mention blasphemous.

  70. Corbin Martinez wrote:

    By the way, what is up with all this Catholic-Phobia? I never knew how widespread it is in the church until recently.

    Anti-Catholic sentiment has been around for a long time in the U.S. It got especially virulent with the influx of the Irish fleeing the potato famine. In my opinion, I think that Chuck Smith (founder of Calvary Chapel) got the ball rolling for the latest incarnation of Catholic bashing back in the early 70s. Walter Martin was also a big-name Catholic hater back then. In more recent times, Dave Hunt (now deceased along with Smith) has carried the ball. Hunt is most known for his book A Woman Rides the Beast , propaganda very similar to Herr Dr. Goebbels treatise on Aryan vs. non-Aryan skulls.

  71. Muff Potter wrote:

    In more recent times, Dave Hunt (now deceased along with Smith) has carried the ball. Hunt is most known for his book A Woman Rides the Beast

    I know him. Sadly, my Dad liked his book “Judgement Day! Islam, Israel, and the nations.” I thought it was filled to the brim with hate for Muslims, barely if any compassion showed.

  72. JeffT wrote:

    (although I do confess to having no clue about what is going on with the demons Jesus cast out from Legion and into the pigs who then ran into the lake and drown).

    There’s one thing many of us out here can totally agree upon:

    What a waste of perfectly good Prosciutto!

  73. @ Corbin Martinez:
    Hatred of Muslims is right up there now with hatred of Jewish people and Catholics and all those brown-skinned people who keep trying to cross the border and…

  74. numo wrote:

    and all those brown-skinned people who keep trying to cross the border

    My dad is half-Mexican, and he loves Jews. Muslims, not so much. He doesn’t hate them, but he’s quite suspicious.

    Muff Potter is right about Chuck Smith. CC is a major promoter of pre-Trib prophecy /terror shenanigans. Part of that is how every Muslim lives to kill Christians.

  75. Corbin Martinez wrote:

    The first thing that comes to mind is the “Left Behind” series. Blatantly anti-Catholic, and it still makes some people keep a watch out for guillotines being constructed.

    That pre-dates Left Behind. As in Jack Chick’s “The Beast”, Thief in the Night-series, and the absolute WORST Christian Apocalyptic novel ever written, Salem Kirban’s 666.

    All because the KJV uses the idiom “Those who had been BEHEADED” for the Martyrs around the Throne in Revelation. Therefore, the Antichrist HAS to Persecute by Beheading.

    Like ISIS/ISIL massacring Infidels by beheading whenever possible because “It Is Written in the Koran”.

  76. Muff Potter wrote:

    In my opinion, I think that Chuck Smith (founder of Calvary Chapel) got the ball rolling for the latest incarnation of Catholic bashing back in the early 70s. Walter Martin was also a big-name Catholic hater back then. In more recent times, Dave Hunt (now deceased along with Smith) has carried the ball.

    All of them Big Names in the ManaGAWD circuit whose books and radio sermons were given equal authority with the KJV, as I remember from Christianese AM radio in the Seventies (whose airtime was dominated locally by the various Calvary Chapels).

    Though Papa Chuck Smith was far from the worst. I remember him mostly for anti-Star Wars rants than anti-Catholic.

    You want to see RABID anti-Catholicism, try another Calvary Chapel Mini-Moses: Raul Rees. From what I heard of HIM on the radio, I don’t think it’s possible to exaggerate that guy’s hostility towards anything Catholic.

  77. dee wrote:

    Let me show you how you could twist this further if you follow it to its logical conclusion. There were many eyewitnesses to the resurrection of Jesus. What would happen if all of them were *influenced* by demons? Maybe they didn’t see what they thought they saw.

    It’s an almost bad Cartesian logic play! Everything can be questioned, then you end up on a witch hunt of disaffiliation because there really is a demon behind every bush, tree and disagreeing Christian.

    At the crux of this, it really diminishes the character and power of God, and would open up the line of questioning you speak of.

  78. Corbin Martinez wrote:

    I know him. Sadly, my Dad liked his book “Judgement Day! Islam, Israel, and the nations.” I thought it was filled to the brim with hate for Muslims, barely if any compassion showed.

    Because since the Second Russian Revolution put the Communists(TM) out of the running (Gog, Magog, and the Kings from the East), Islam has become the Orc Horde for the Book of Revelation’s Dark Lord.

    But it’s not that much different for the Israelis. Or you, or me. All just expendable pieces to move about on the End Time Prophecy gameboard and mark off the End Time Checklist. Check, Check, Check…

  79. numo wrote:

    That is *exactly* what they mean. Google C. Peter Wagner Operation Ice Castle and you should get plenty on this. It is directly related to some things that were happening in Catholicism in the late 90s.

    “Operation Ice Castle” sounds like the title of some technothriller or WW2/Cold War adventure/thriller novel or movie. Can’t hear it without thinking of “Ice Station Zebra”.

  80. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Though Papa Chuck Smith was far from the worst. I remember him mostly for anti-Star Wars rants than anti-Catholic.

    What? LOL my dad is hip to all things CC and I’ve never heard of this. How is Star Wars sinful? I can think of several things they’d say but I wanna know what they actually did.

  81. @ Headless Unicorn Guy: I hear you. It always reminds me of the spy thriller plot that was introduced into “General Hospital” in the early 80s, about a magical diamond called the Ice Princess. It was a ridiculous plotline, on an equally ridiculous show.

  82. @ Corbin Martinez:
    The dualistic nature of The Force was a *big* subject of rants in the 70s and 80s. People acted like it was real thing, not part of a fantasy movie.

    Ditto for E.T.. I was once at a picnic where someone was going on and on and ON about how E.T. was basically a false Christ. No joke.

  83. I really wonder when taking in the language of Paul that he meant something of the “old nature” was not totally eradicated of its fruit. I really think that it is possible that in connection to his visions puffing him up that God was allowing the messenger of reminding him of deeds against Christians prior to his conversion in order to rely on God more fully. The ultimate resolution was turning to the grace of God in deafening and yet not totally eliminating the tone.

  84. Corbin Martinez wrote:

    What? LOL my dad is hip to all things CC and I’ve never heard of this. How is Star Wars sinful? I can think of several things they’d say but I wanna know what they actually did.

    I think it was “The Force” as REAL “Pagan Eastern Mysticism”. (Much like Harry Potter and “Real Witchcraft” back in the Nineties.)

    I do know for a while in the late Seventies/early Eighties Chuck Smith couldn’t pass up an opportunity to denounce Star Wars in a radio sermon even if he had to create the opportunity himself (and usually did). Not just direct preaching against “The Force” but working little digs and snarks about it into unrelated sermons as anecdotes or examples. Boy sounded Obsessed. Or Jealous.

  85. numo wrote:

    Ditto for E.T.. I was once at a picnic where someone was going on and on and ON about how E.T. was basically a false Christ. No joke.

    WOW. You know the weirdest things, Numo.

  86. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I think it was “The Force” as REAL “Pagan Eastern Mysticism”. (Much like Harry Potter and “Real Witchcraft” back in the Nineties.)

    That makes sense. I thought they might of said the force was a false holy Spirit or something :D.

    Raul Rees isn’t on K-wave that much anymore. Or maybe he is and I’m just not paying attention. All I really know about him is that he has an annoying accent. At least to me it’s annoying; it’s probably very aesthetically pleasing for others.

  87. Brandon F wrote:

    A demon has possessed or influenced you so you can’t tithe?!?! That’s a crock to me.

    Based on my understanding of Morris’s teachings (I’ve watched his TV show off an on the last few years, as well as his guest appearances on “Life Today” show), he says if you do not tithe, you are opening yourself up to divorce, getting cancer, and other bad things.

    Morris and guys like him make God sound like God should be a main character in The Godfather movies. If you don’t pay up to God, God will whack you.

    I think Morris should stop using the word “tithing” to describe people at his church forking over ten percent to him and other preachers and use the more accurate term “extortion.”

  88. @ dee:

    I’m not really on either side on that subject. I was brought up Southern Baptist, and most Southern Baptists seem cessationist, but I was never totally sold out to cessationism.

    I’m open to what non-cessatioists say or think about the topic. I don’t see any clear cut teaching in the New Testament that says the Holy Spirit operating in the life of a believer would come to a halt after the death of the last apostle who knew Jesus in person.

    I do think a lot of charismatic groups carry the Holy Spirit beliefs waaay too far and teach some hokey stuff. They can be very excessive and teach things that are not in the Bible at all.

    Most cessationists I see, the real adamant ones, I’m not comfortable with them, either, though.

    While I lean towards sola scriptura, it seems to me that the cessationists have reduced the Trinity to being the Father, Son, and The Bible.

    They have not left room for the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer today, or only in a very, very narrow sense.

    Why did Jesus promise believers the Holy Spirit after he left, if the Holy Spirit would not do much or anything for believers?

    I read a web page by a guy who was solidly sola scriptura and not a charistmatic at all, until his son became very sick and almost died. He said during that ordeal, he was not getting any comfort, answers, or guidance from prayer and Bible reading alone, which caused him to re evaluate his views on the Holy Spirit, cessationism, etc.

    His view sounded pretty similar to mine, in that he’s not firmly on one side or the other but some where in-between. It was an interesting page (it was taken from a book he and some other guys wrote).

    That guy’s article can be found in one of the units or chapters here, I think (or it’s somewhere on this site):

    “Who’s Afraid of the Holy Spirit? An Investigation into the Ministry of the Spirit of God Today”
    https://bible.org/series/whos-afraid-holy-spirit-investigation-ministry-spirit-god-today

  89. @ Corbin Martinez:
    Hah! That’s only because I’ve run into some very odd people. Note: the person who claimed this was in SGM’s Fairfax, VA, church at the time. (Back in the early 80s, before it went all YRR.)

  90. Sigh…and as a teen, I was taught that “The Bondage Breaker” was…wait for it…gospel.

  91. Corbin Martinez wrote:

    Sometimes I wonder what’s the highest number of times John Piper has said “GOSPEL!!!!” In a single sermon.

    We should meet up over a Piper sermon, and a nice single malt *, and play “Buzzword Bingo” sometime!

    * Not necessarily in that order…

  92. @ dee:

    There’s another TV preacher, Perry Stone, who believes this stuff. His show is called “Manna Fest.” He believes that objects can and do hold demons.

    I’m not so sure I believe in objects holding demons, but, even if they can, I would assume that can happen only if the person deliberately held a seance asking a demon to reside in their sweater or whatever. But not Stone. He believes Christians can stumble into demon harassment.

    What got my attention in one or two Stone shows is he believes a Christian can, in ignorance, be subjected to demons via an object.

    For example, if you go to a knick knack store and buy a used object not knowing that its previous owner was a Satanist, there can be a demon attached to that object, and once you buy it/bring it home with you, you can be attacked by demons. Even if you do not learn until later the history of that object.

    That doesn’t make much sense to me (assuming it’s even true) that God would permit a Christian to be attacked by demons for innocently buying some brik- a- brak that previously owned by a Satanist or witch doctor, and they didn’t even know this.

    There was a ghost hunting series on Sy Fy channel around Halloween last year, where everyone on one show who bought an old wine box started seeing apparitions in their homes and having other problems.

    Everyone that bought it would say they experienced a haunting, then they would sell it on e-bay to someone else. The last guy who bought the box started experiencing issues after it showed up to his home in the mail.

    He tracked down all previous owners. The origin went back to some young Jewish ladies in Europe performed a ritual to trap a spirit inside the box around the 1930s or 40s, if I remember right, and the box found its way to the USA later. Apparently this whole story was made into a movie a couple years ago.

    Here’s one link about the story:
    Story of haunted box isn’t just a tale dreamed up in Hollywood
    http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_news/article/Story-of-haunted-box-isn-t-just-a-tale-dreamed-up-3882396.php

    I just looked Stone’s site up. While I have heard him teach that demons can attach themselves to objects, on one page of his where he’s selling a DVD about Satan is this comment:
    “Discover why Satan is powerless to place any curse on a true Christian”

    I don’t think Stone believes a Christian can be demon possessed, but I have heard him tell Christians on past shows to throw away any objects they think may be demon possessed, because Satan can attack your life that way.

  93. @ dee:

    Good luck with your raccoon and possum problems.

    I used to get possums all the time in the garage in Texas, and only one so far where I live now. They like to eat out of my cat’s food dish (I keep his food dish in the garage). I never did figure out how to keep them away. I just kept the garage doors closed and down.

  94. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “Take dominion” like ISIS/ISIL in their Global Caliphate?

    Kind of, yes, but minus decapitation. If I remember right, they do want Christians who think as they do to get positions all through out society, including government.

    They would not probably let women work or serve or hold any positions of influence at all, only they wouldn’t make women wear burkas.

    Thankfully, I think these types of American Christians are in the minority.

    Most regular, every day Christians would not want to live under a Christian form of Taliban. What would that be called, “Christianized Taliban” or “Jihadists for Jesus”?

  95. @ XianJaneway:
    You must be the same age as msny of my old friends’ kids. I feel for you and others like you, who were exposed to a toxic combination of NAR, discipleship movement, word of faith, Gothardism and who knows what all else. (Some of the “else” being virginity pledges and the “dilver ring thing.”)

  96. In other news, an unpleasant three days of rocketing and nigh-on uncontrollable blood sugar levels came to an abrupt end today, and it seems that the explanation was not that I have suddenly acquired a liver condition leading to heavy digestion-induced glycolysis, which would have been a disappointment, but that by sheer bad luck I opened two dud vials of food insulin in succession.

    I know we have regulars here who are living with much more serious conditions than Type I diabetes * – but still, discovering your health has not suddenly disappeared up s**t creek is always good for morale.

    * Type I is the happy kind. (I can still go mountain-biking, hill-running and do 15-hour days in the mountains, sore achilles tendon permitting.) It’s Type 2 you don’t want.

  97. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Without wanting to steal your excellently-made point, I beg to submit a slight refinement. To wit, the word “Gospel” has become a branding prefix, like the “i” in iPhone, iTunes, iPad or iBrow.

    True.

    When I saw “iBrow” I thought of “uniBrow” which in turn reminds me of Unibrow Baby on The Simpsons,
    http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/Gerald_Samson

  98. numo wrote:

    Hatred of Muslims is right up there now with hatred of Jewish people and Catholics and all those brown-skinned people who keep trying to cross the border and…

    I have legitimate concerns about things like terrorism (largely carried out by Muslims in the world today), and I also think the United States should do something to make the border less porous.

    None of this is borne of hatred for illegal immigrants or Muslims. I don’t agree with the majority of Roman Catholic beliefs, but I don’t have a hatred for Catholics.

    Be very careful not to dismiss people’s views (or disagreements with positions) as being motivated by hatred or racism. Because that usually is not the case.

  99. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Not just direct preaching against “The Force” but working little digs and snarks about it into unrelated sermons as anecdotes or examples. Boy sounded Obsessed. Or Jealous.

    Is he still alive?
    If he is, does he feel silly for renouncing The Force, since it was revealed in the prequels that it has a biological basis in the Star wars universe (it appears to comes from Midi-chlorians, not spiritual beings or dimensions).

  100. Daisy wrote:

    When I saw “iBrow” I thought of “uniBrow”…

    Of course, there’s no such Apple product as iBrow. Other possibilities were

     iWash
     iLiner
     iLevel
     Laser iSurgery
     iCaramba

  101. Daisy wrote:

    Most regular, every day Christians would not want to live under a Christian form of Taliban.

    Ever heard of the phrase “It’s For Their Own Good?”
    (sub-type “That Their SOULS May Be Saved!” Which one of these guys advocates that SCRIPTURE permits Christians to take and own Heathen(TM) slaves so that they may Save them. Remarkably similar to the Koran. Same MenaGAWD also have a very narrow definition of who isn’t Heathen(TM).)

    “So what if I rack him ’til he die? For I shall have Saved His Soul.”
    — “The Inquisitor”, Mark Twain’s Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court

  102. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Oh, and of course, Och iTheNoo.

    That has to be a specifically Scots expression.
    (At least it never made it to California.)

  103. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Glad you’re feeling better! My hubby is T1. He has never had dud vials of insulin! That is quite strange and dangerous. Did they get over heated by chance? I am wondering how T1 is the happy diabetes though? My husband now has nerve pain in his feet unfortunately. He has been insulin dependent for 20 years, with very good control. I was surprised and sad about the nerve issues already.

  104. Try reading his book “the God I never knew”. Throughout the book, he tries to talk about Holy Spirit baptism but seems to purposely avoid addressing the inherent weirdness, confusion, and chaos that seems to be linked to the Holy Spirit within the Pentecostal / charismatic circles.

  105. O-F-T wrote:

    Try reading his book “the God I never knew”.

    I will do so. Thank you for the recommendation and welcome to TWW.

  106. dee wrote:

    And I heard that the family is fighting over all sorts things.

    Yeah, it’s sad.

    I’ve had kind of confused feelings about Calvary chapel for a while now.

  107. Excellent post Dee. May I state for any of your readers who may be wondering how Morris “gets away” with all this scripture twisting, the passages you selected provide the answer. Morris, who has no formal theological or seminary training, is highly proficient with his Logos software. He does a search for a keyword like “demon”, and then finds a scripture with the keyword, then takes another adjacent word or two and carefully explains how this means something profound in Greek or in Hebrew. This makes himself sound like a biblical scholar, despite improperly exegeting. The audience is temporarily distracted from the actual passage and its context, and feels that they have really learned something new they could have never discovered on their own from this one interpretation, and that Morris must really spend a lot of time studying the bible inside and out.

    So when Morris says that Paul was possessed by a demon, the audience thinks, “well I don’t know dead languages; he must know what he’s talking about. I never knew Paul was possessed but I guess he must have been.” It is a standard magic trick. The magician gets you to focus on one thing while he switches out the other. If you watch any of his sermons you will see him do this over and over. It’s how he builds up unmerited credibility. People marvel at how Morris is so “gifted” in interpreting the bible in ways they never could. That’s actually because Morris has twisted scripture to “mean” something that God never truly meant. People need to follow your context rule diligently.

  108. Paul wrote:

    “I now bring the authority, rule, and dominion of the Lord Jesus Christ over my life today, over my home, my family, my household, my vehicles, finances, over all my kingdom and domain. I now bring the authority, rule, and dominion of the Lord Jesus Christ and the fullness of the work of Christ against Satan, against his kingdom, against every foul and unclean spirit—every ruler, power, authority, and spiritual force of wickedness, their every weapon, claim, and device. [At this point, I specifically name all foul and unclean spirits that I know have been attacking me, such as fear, doubt, accident, injury, death, the religious spirit, pride, arrogance, etc.] I send all foul and unclean spirits bound to the throne of Christ, together with every back-up and replacement, every weapon, claim, and device—by the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ and in his name. I command the judgment of the Lord Jesus Christ upon the heads of those that refuse to obey, and I send them to judgment, by the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ and in his name.”

     

    Good grief. Do they draw a "magic" circle in salt before they start in with this? Because it sounds very much like the sort of thing an acquaintance used to get up to, when she was invoking the Norse deity Odin……..

  109. JeffT wrote:

    There is no real discussion on the Bible about who and what demons are – virtually all the mentions of demons are simply statements that they were cast out and, in context, can easily be understood as mental illness (although I do confess to having no clue about what is going on with the demons Jesus cast out from Legion and into the pigs who then ran into the lake and drown).

    And the Underwood people used that verse when they named their canned spiced ham “Deviled Ham”. Still making a buck off it, too. (Who says popular culture ignores the Scriptures?)

  110. Starting this article with a quote from Ann Voskamp? LOL! She is a wolf herself, someone to be avoided at all costs, a false teacher,a fake,a blasphemer.

  111. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    When I saw “iBrow” I thought of “uniBrow”…

    Of course, there’s no such Apple product as iBrow. Other possibilities were

     iWash
     iLiner
     iLevel
     Laser iSurgery
     iCaramba

    A) glad you’re better B) love it, hilarious C) are you suggesting drinking games with a minor? Or at least an under 21 D) I’m procrastinating from reading for my Master’s, sort it out Beaker….

  112. Beakerj wrote:

    C) are you suggesting drinking games with a minor? Or at least an under 21 D)

    Sshhhhhh, no one needs to know. I’m using it as a punchline: people talk to me like I’m an adult and then I go BOOM, I’m 17. ;D

  113. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    discovering your health has not suddenly disappeared up s**t creek is always good for morale.

    Sorry to hear you were crook for a while there Nick but glad you got it sorted pretty quick. Now, I wonder what the regs are in relation to copious amounts of red wine?

  114. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    and a nice single malt

    I remember that nice syrupy malt in a tin stuff. And malted milkshakes. mmm. I’m sure that’s what you meant.

  115. Haitch wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:
    and a nice single malt
    I remember that nice syrupy malt in a tin stuff. And malted milkshakes. mmm. I’m sure that’s what you meant.

    I refer the Honourable Lady to my use of the proprietary term “single malt”.

  116. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I refer the Honourable Lady to my use of the proprietary term “single malt”.

    Had to look that up. Was not familiar with the term. I hope you are joking, and did not know his age, and that you are now on top of your own situation in every way. Sorry about the medical problems.

  117. @ Janice:

    I am glad that I was able to make you laugh. Since you are a new commenter, welcome to TWW.

    Did you know that I have quoted atheists, Hindus, Johnny Carson, etc. at the top of the post? I choose the quotes because I find them interesting. Because of copyright laws I must attribute the quotes and I also choose to link to the source of the quote.

    If you want to read only *Janice* approved quotes, I suggest that go to the link, choose the quote that you like approve and post it in a comment here. It might make you feel better.

    Also, just because someone does not believe as you do, does not mean that they can’t speak something that is true.

  118. zooey111 wrote:

    And the Underwood people used that verse when they named their canned spiced ham “Deviled Ham”. Still making a buck off it, too

    Wow! I did not know that. About twice a year, I get myself a can of deviled ham and make a sandwich. I had not idea I was eating *biblically.*

  119. Corbin Martinez wrote:

    Beakerj wrote:
    C) are you suggesting drinking games with a minor? Or at least an under 21 D)
    Sshhhhhh, no one needs to know. I’m using it as a punchline: people talk to me like I’m an adult and then I go BOOM, I’m 17. ;D

    Haaa, knee-jerk Child Protection & Nick Protection reaction. It’s okay, I’m a professional, but if I catch you fudging your age again we will have to have ‘the chat’ Corbin 😉

  120. Stone is a regular along with Todd Coontz,Mike Murdock, and other heretics on the Campmeeting Show regularly presented by the insp network. Now who can take what anything he says as truth after seeing him on that network?

  121. Corbin Martinez wrote:

    dee wrote:

    And I heard that the family is fighting over all sorts things.

    Yeah, it’s sad.

    But not unexpected.
    Cults rarely survive the end of the Founding Personality intact.
    The King is Dead. Let the Game of Thrones begin.

    I’ve had kind of confused feelings about Calvary chapel for a while now.

    I’ve had “confused feelings” about Calvary Chapel for decades. Nothing I could point to and say “AHA!” (especially against the CC barrage of full-auto Bible Bullets), but a general feeling of something WRONG. Like CC distills all that can go sour with Fundagelical Christianity into a concentrated form.

  122. dee wrote:

    Corbin Martinez wrote:

    Chuck Smith died October 3rd last year.

    And I heard that the family is fighting over all sorts things.

    Inheritance Feud. I’ve been on the fringes of one, and if you haven’t it’s hard to imagine just how ugly they can get. Especially when (like Isaac vs Ishmael or Ali vs Fatima) the estate being fought over includes Spiritual Blessings/Anointings from God Himself.

    And again, what happens to most CULTS when their Founder dies?
    Few Joseph Smiths have a Brigham Young to succeed them.

  123. Beakerj wrote:

    It’s okay, I’m a professional, but if I catch you fudging your age again we will have to have ‘the chat’ Corbin

    Gosh, am I the only teenager here or something? There’s gotta be someone else.

  124. @ Corbin Martinez:

    Corbin, people have to be careful what they say to legal minors. The person who crosses certain lines can get in trouble even if he “kid” is almost of legal age. And legal age varies for various things and in various places. Nobody wants Nick to get into trouble. Personally, I think Nick mentions alcohol in a rather careless manner sometimes perhaps giving wrong impressions, but who knows what Brits do in this area. That said, you maybe might want to rethink whether you want to play the game of not telling people your age. I doubt you want people to get into trouble, much less Nick whom we all value greatly.

    And Beaks is a doll, and a professional, and a Brit, so there you go. All is good.

  125. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Cults rarely survive the end of the Founding Personality intact.

    I recently had my first personal encounter with the pastor worship of the CC brigade. Since I’ve been listening to them for as long as I can remember, I’ve’ve never really paid close attention to them the way I would a pastor/ theologian I’ve never heard if before. The dangers of familiarity, I guess.

    My dad wanted to go to the “Patterns and Promises” prophecy conference at Maranatha Chapel that happened back in May. I wanted to go because I’ve never been to Maranatha Chapel. Huge church. It felt like going to a concert. Anyway, so I’m in the auditorium waiting after most of the people are seated, and then Ray Bentley walks on stage. IMMEDIATELY he gets a standing ovation from everyone except for me and my dad, and he hadn’t even said a word. I was like “WOW!! Talk about being popular.” I think it was the robotic unity of how everyone responded the exact same way that weirded me out.

  126. Nancy wrote:

    Corbin, people have to be careful what they say to legal minors. The person who crosses certain lines can get in trouble even if he “kid” is almost of legal age.

    I know, I was kind of joking with the whole gosh thing. I’ll try and remind people of my age more often.

  127. @ Nancy:
    I think Nick might be teading the “no smoking, no drinking, no dancing” segment of Ametican evangelicalism just a wee bit…

  128. Interesting(to me) intersection with this topic….

    We have a “Full Gospel” church moving into our area in the next few months. So I started to do some homework…Roger Olson has a really good analysis on this as a former “insider”…..Search Pentacosalism’s Dark Side by Roger Olson….I see some very important connecting strands to this movement and ARC and MD. Olson does a good job of explaining how these leaders are able to get away with so much absurdity. In a nutshell, “Don’t touch God’s annointed” you could say is there life verse.

    Everything else flows from that. Regardless of the church or ministry, if you have bought into the concept that your “leader” is to be trusted in all things…EVEN when they do make “mistakes” there is no end to the damage that can be caused.

  129. @ numo:

    Could be. I do think that the North Atlantic is a rather large barrier at times when it comes to understanding what is being said.

  130. @ Adam Borsay:
    A little random, but is it weird that I confuse you and Nick Bulbeck as the same person? It’s only since I started commenting that I realized that you’re separate people.

  131. Corbin Martinez wrote:

    My dad wanted to go to the “Patterns and Promises” prophecy conference at Maranatha Chapel…

    “Patterns & Promises”?

    An “Ugh & Argh” title just like Dungeons & Dragons, Tunnels & Trolls, Starships & Spacemen, Bunnies & Burrows…

  132. What some of these guys teach sounds pretty similar to what Bill Gothard taught about demons and physical objects. Wonder if there’s some influence there.

    Remember how you needed to get rid of any cabbage patch and troll dolls? Mothers won’t be able to give birth at home if there are any in there!

  133. @ NJ:

    I knew somebody once who was convinced that he went to an ancient historical site and demons rode back home with him in the car.

  134. @ Nancy:

    I wanted to say we know there is something wrong with you; glad to have an explanation. He was way into Gothard stuff.

  135. NJ wrote:

    What some of these guys teach sounds pretty similar to what Bill Gothard taught about demons and physical objects. Wonder if there’s some influence there.

    Far-Side comics were also verboten because of talking animals. There is a lot of Gothardism in conservative evangelicalism that is no longer recognized as being from Gothard. Same for the various shepherding groups.

    The Gospel Glitterati are Gothardists and shepherding promoters, but I doubt that any of them would acknowledge it if they even know it. For the younger ones, control-freakery is “normal” and assumed, or so it seems to me when I try to talk to any of them about freedom in Christ. I think that their freedom scares these folks a lot more than it scares the one who bought it for them. And for the authoritarian control freaks, that attitude is very helpful toward achieving their goals.

  136. Gram3 wrote:

    Far-Side comics were also verboten because of talking animals. There is a lot of Gothardism in conservative evangelicalism that is no longer recognized as being from Gothard. Same for the various shepherding groups.

    Does this Gothardism in conservative evangelicalism include the ManaGAWD taking “not Know in the Biblical sense” sexual advantage of teenage interns?

    Down in South OC there’s a major street called “Gothard”. Local joke pronunciation is “Got Hard”. Looks like it isn’t a joke any more.

  137. Nancy wrote:

    @ NJ:
    I knew somebody once who was convinced that he went to an ancient historical site and demons rode back home with him in the car.

    Yet another Poster Boy for Sagan’s book.

  138. NJ wrote:

    Remember how you needed to get rid of any cabbage patch and troll dolls? Mothers won’t be able to give birth at home if there are any in there!

    So DEMONs of infertility and/or birth complications lived in cabbage patch and troll dolls?

    And don’t forget the DEMONs in D&D miniatures (figurines) screaming as the figurines were melted down. That one made it onto 700 Club during the Satanic Panic.

  139. Corbin Martinez wrote:

    @ Adam Borsay:
    A little random, but is it weird that I confuse you and Nick Bulbeck as the same person? It’s only since I started commenting that I realized that you’re separate people.

    I wouldn’t for one second disown Adam, for whose comments my life is the richer, but he and I are indeed two.

  140. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Somewhat OT, but I remember you saying that you have the ability to store and retrieve great amounts of random information, and I think that you said something about either the particular way that you synthesize the info or don’t synthesize it. Could you explain how that works again? I’m asking because of a recent encounter with a child who has an amazing ability to file and retrieve random facts and who also has a voracious appetite for information, usually about one topic at a time. I’ve never seen this personally before, and it was quite astonishing to me.

  141. Just to clarify a couple of things:

     I was not aware of Corbin’s young age
     The legal minimum age for drinking alcohol in the UK is 18, so that (to a first approximation) 28% of teenagers here can quite legally drink, for instance, Isle of Jura

  142. Gram3 wrote:

    Somewhat OT, but I remember you saying that you have the ability to store and retrieve great amounts of random information, and I think that you said something about either the particular way that you synthesize the info or don’t synthesize it. Could you explain how that works again?

    I think it’s largely because I’m a natural-talent speedreader who learned to read at age 4. By the time I was 10, I’d read and absorbed more raw information than most people do in a lifetime. With no idea how to fit it all together — George Adamski’s Space Brothers from the Saucers and 2 + 2 = 4 all with the same validity. As Steven King put it, “When you’re that age most of the bingo-balls are still floating around in the draw tank”. Result was this massive mental database without much of a search engine, mostly random-link cascades.

    I’m asking because of a recent encounter with a child who has an amazing ability to file and retrieve random facts and who also has a voracious appetite for information, usually about one topic at a time. I’ve never seen this personally before, and it was quite astonishing to me.

    It’s very familiar to me. I advise you to remember in any further contact with said kid:

    There’s this “conservation of neurological energy” where as your IQ pulls ahead of your chronological age, the rest of your personality development lags behind. The Super-Genius with all the non-intellectual savvy and emotional control of a three-year-old has a basis in fact — we DO tend to be late bloomers in anything not connected with raw Intellect.

    In any further association with this kid, remember that super-intellect and “amazing ability to file and retrieve random facts and who also has a voracious appetite for information” is connected to a KID (NOT a Giant Brain in a Jar) whose intellect has probably kept him isolated and lonely and feeling left out and hurt and reclusive. (And going through hell if he’s in school — it’s not only chickens who peck the defective to death in the barnyard.) Treat him as a KID with unusual abilities, not some mini-adult or walking Wikipedia. A he or she, not an It. Because all too often, kids like that are an It — an IQ score or Savant talent without the mess of a body and personality attached. It’s going to be rough enough growing up isolated and “different” without awe-stricken adults making things worse.

  143. I recently performed an exorcism in my office. The demon of Windows 8 is gone now. I made sure to remove all of the possessed objects while walking in a continuous counter-clockwise pattern. And I rebuked them in the name of Linus Torvalds. 🙂

  144. Gram3 wrote:

    I’m asking because of a recent encounter with a child who has an amazing ability to file and retrieve random facts and who also has a voracious appetite for information, usually about one topic at a time.

    P.S. This kid will also be prone to problems of being unable to focus on any one topic or project long enough to actually DO anything with it. He/she will need teaching and coaching and encouragement to persist with an interest or project after the new wears off and something Fresh and New and Different pops up. When the Topic ceases to be FUN and NIFTY and requires actual WORK to come to fruition.

    That’s been one of the hardest things in my case — my house is FULL of started-but-not-completed projects, uncompleted for various reasons. If I have a one-in-four completion rate, I’m lucky and probably ahead of the game. And I’ve seen worse — in local SF fandom, there’s a horror story of this one fanboy who despite all the Great Projects he was going to do Someday, NEVER stayed on any of them beyond the Initial Great Idea because another Great Idea came along ten minutes later. What a waste.

  145. Doug wrote:

    I recently performed an exorcism in my office. The demon of Windows 8 is gone now.

    I had 7 installed on my current home system for just that reason. We use 7 at work, 8 is optimized for Smartphone Apps as well as being buggy as hell, and I didn’t want to learn another rev’s quirks when I’m not getting paid to do it.

  146. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Down in South OC there’s a major street called “Gothard”. Local joke pronunciation is “Got Hard”. Looks like it isn’t a joke any more.

    I lived right off of Beach Blvd. & Heil when I was a teen. Gothard is very close.

  147. Doug wrote:

    I recently performed an exorcism in my office. The demon of Windows 8 is gone now. I made sure to remove all of the possessed objects while walking in a continuous counter-clockwise pattern. And I rebuked them in the name of Linus Torvalds.

    Well done – congrats.

  148. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Thanks for the pointers and personal perspective. How does a child like that learn to synthesize the facts or even care about what the facts mean? Or is there an inevitable mismatch between fact acquisition and analysis? I get what you are saying about the kid being a real kid and about the brutality of not fitting in. How could I encourage the child and the family without adding to the problem with my amazement at this ability?

  149. Pingback: LINKATHON | PhoenixPreacher

  150. @ Nancy:
    Sounds typical re. the way this garbage got into common circulation among charis matics by the early-mid 70s. Exorcising every room in the house, exorcising the car, “pleading the blood of Jesus over” virtually everyone/everything in sight in order to “protect” them from demonic influence, etc. etc. etc.

    I now view all of this stuff as superstition – xtian magic, indistinguishable from the practices of animist religions. Many Wiccans have pointed out as much.

  151.   __

    “Da ‘noble’ Fish R biting?”

    hmmm…

      Ya know, it is very helpful to have a good understanding of what the Bible has to say about these proverbial false toletbowl church leaders; if more Christians would take the time to get well grounded on what the bible says about stuff, maybe they wouldn’t be so easily deceived by the likes of crummy people like Pastor X. (fill in da blank.)

    …search the scriptures daily, R deze things really so?  (Acts 17:11)

    (bump)

    🙁

    Sopy

  152. dee wrote:

    About twice a year, I get myself a can of deviled ham and make a sandwich

    Then there’s the old 60’s appetiser, “devils on horseback” (bacon wrapped around prunes skewered with a toothpick). I think it may be ‘extra-biblical’.

  153. Corbin Martinez wrote:

    Gosh, am I the only teenager here or something? There’s gotta be someone else.

    I think Nicholas pops in from time to time. The far recesses of my brain remember he was possibly 19 at the time, but you know, time progresses and he’s probably had a few birthdays now…

  154. numo wrote:

    I think Nick might be teading the “no smoking, no drinking, no dancing” segment of Ametican evangelicalism just a wee bit…

    ooh yeah, and sex, just don’t go there, as it might lead to dancing…

  155. Gram3 wrote:

    “Far-Side comics were also verboten because of talking animals.”

    Oh my gosh…seriously?? The Far Side was my favorite comic for many years. That may be worse than rants against Harry Potter because of the way some of the wizards and witches are actually GOOD characters.

    Nancy wrote:

    “I knew somebody once who was convinced that he went to an ancient historical site and demons rode back home with him in the car.”

    If I remember correctly, another thing Gothard warned against was bringing back certain kinds of souvenirs from 3rd world countries, especially Africa. No telling what demons might be attached because of all that paganism and animism and/or voodoo.

    HUG:

    “So DEMONs of infertility and/or birth complications lived in cabbage patch and troll dolls?”

    Gothard was telling anecdotes of midwives who were trying to assist home births, and no progress or complications were happening until said midwives threw out or destroyed any such dolls they found.

    “And don’t forget the DEMONs in D&D miniatures (figurines) screaming as the figurines were melted down. That one made it onto 700 Club during the Satanic Panic.”

    Wow, never saw that one. The only things I remember are how playing D&D was supposed to enable you to learn an actual demon’s name; almost like a combo of an RPG and a ouija board. That and the backmasking thing, though I don’t know if that had directly to do with demonic activity. I still remember a rather entertaining video titled Hell’s Bells: the Dangers of Rock and Roll. 😀

    Ultimately, I’m convinced Gothard’s evangelical Talmud and other forms of fundamentalism are all based on fear, not the spiritual freedom we have in Christ.

  156. numo wrote:

    Exorcising every room in the house, exorcising the car, “pleading the blood of Jesus over” virtually everyone/everything in sight in order to “protect” them from demonic influence, etc. etc. etc.

    At least when I did a holy-water blessing of my old house’s doorposts and lintels, I was honest about it being “the Catholic way of Setting Wards”… And my roomie of the time (another F&SF fan who knew a few Wiccans) understood. It connected.

  157. NJ wrote:

    “Far-Side comics were also verboten because of talking animals.”

    Oh my gosh…seriously??

    Think of that filtered through my fannish background: Furry and Brony.

    I’ve had a soft spot for upright talking animal characters as far back as I can remember. What does this bode for a Gothardite smelling-out of witches?

    Nancy wrote:

    “I knew somebody once who was convinced that he went to an ancient historical site and demons rode back home with him in the car.”

    If I remember correctly, another thing Gothard warned against was bringing back certain kinds of souvenirs from 3rd world countries, especially Africa. No telling what demons might be attached because of all that paganism and animism and/or voodoo.

    I got that treatment from my Assyrian sister-in-law almost five years ago, after a portrait of an elegant cobra-woman I acquired at a Furry con art show triggered a two-month depression in me. My SIL recommended a “Spiritual Warfare Expert” she had told me about who had Prophesied that Obama was God’s Punishment on America for Our Sins.

    I didn’t bite. I know exactly why acquiring that picture triggered a depression. The circumstances around my acquiring it were similar enough to some circumstances surrounding my long-ago breakup with Ann it triggered a flashback at full emotional strength. I exorcised that depression with a 10,000-word magic-realist fantasy story based around the incident with a single fantasy element added.

    Soon after, I changed my will to bequeath all my intellectual property (including anything Furry) to my writing partner. In the Fandom there are too many horror stories of what happened to artists when a CHRISTIAN(TM) relative inherited their life’s work/intellectual property.

  158. Muff Potter wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Down in South OC there’s a major street called “Gothard”. Local joke pronunciation is “Got Hard”. Looks like it isn’t a joke any more.

    I lived right off of Beach Blvd. & Heil when I was a teen. Gothard is very close.

    Near Mile Square Park. I’m very familiar with the area, though I live well north of it. “HEIL AVE!” was another of those local street-name jokes.

  159. Haitch wrote:

    Corbin Martinez wrote:
    Gosh, am I the only teenager here or something? There’s gotta be someone else.
    I think Nicholas pops in from time to time. The far recesses of my brain remember he was possibly 19 at the time, but you know, time progresses and he’s probably had a few birthdays now…

    Besides which, I’m a teenager on the inside.

  160. Bridget wrote:

    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    Curiosity question . . . in your guestimation, do as many 18-21 year-olds have access to cars in the UK as they do in the US?

    I have literally no idea. Certainly, there are plenty of drivers aged 18-21 here (the minimum age for driving a car is 17) and they account for a disproportionately high number of accidents and fatalities. In the classic road tragedy, a “boy racer” (as they’re known) trying to impress his friends loses control of the car and crashes. In fact, drivers in that age-group are more than twice as likely to be involved in an accident if they are accompanied by friends than if they are driving alone. This is very hard on young drivers who are not reckless, because insurance premiums for the under-25’s are extremely high.

    Slight tangent, but the single most dangerous (to themselves especially, but also to others) group of road-users in the UK is motorcyclists. Every year, when statistics are published regarding Britain’s most dangerous roads as measured by numbers killed or seriously injured, the top 5 are invariably mountain roads that are popular with speeding motorcyclists. Because motorcyclists are wild, free spirits who are wild and free, they don’t have to obey the laws of the road like lesser people. Unfortunately, they are neither wild nor free enough to gain exemption from the laws of physics, which pass sentence at the speed of light.

  161. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    it’s pretty much the same here, though given our throughway system vs. yours, there’s lots more happening with commuters and such. includes all the wild people who like to take highways at top speed – of which there are many, and mostly not teenagers.

  162. Corbin Martinez wrote:

    Doug wrote:

    I just celebrated the 40th anniversary of my 14th birthday, if that helps.

    Thanks.

    And I’m now 30-16, so we’re totally on the same page here. And I was joking about the age warning thing, which I know you know. Now, where’s that paperwork?

  163. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    We do have folks on bikes, but I doubt they are too much of a problem, since I only saw one biker drop his bike on the interstate and come into the ER in several years, and he was an adult. Of course, my son dropped his bike (to avoid a collision) in the middle of I40 at high noon one day, but his Daddy had taught him how to do it as safely as possible and nobody ran over him – though that is a danger. He was a grown man and not a teen at the time though. What we found in the ER clientele was alcohol and drugs and truckers who had been driving way too long at a time. Then teens of course at some level I guess, but not so much. You would be surprised at what you find when you do alcohol levels and drug panels on accidents off the highway. Makes one afraid to drive down the road.

    Our teens got hurt a lot but mostly through damage inflicted on each other intentionally. Maybe you all are more civilized than that.

  164. @ Nancy:
    I hear you on the truckers. One almost forced me off the road today. He was in the left lane and decided to switch to the right lane without bothering to check and see if there were drivers in the right lane.

    It was scary. Using my horn was just about my only recorse, as this happened *on a bridege* and i had about 6 feet of maneuvering space to my right.

  165. Nancy wrote:

    Our teens got hurt a lot but mostly through damage inflicted on each other intentionally.

    And football. I surely must have sent one of my kids to one and maybe two years of college just on what I earned from other people’s kids’ football injuries. Mostly knees, thankfully, not heads.

  166. NJ wrote:

    The Far Side was my favorite comic for many years.

    Mine too, if I had a choice of any person in the world I could meet, it would be Gary Larson. You also might like an Australian cartoonist/humourist/melancholic who has been around for a good while – Leunig (Michael Leunig) http://leunig.com.au/

  167. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Slight tangent, but the single most dangerous (to themselves especially, but also to others) group of road-users in the UK is motorcyclists.

    Out here, they’re called “two-wheel death machines”.
    If you’re a medic in an ER, “Donorcycles”.

  168. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    As Numo said, it is the same here. The one difference is driving can start at 16 and the legal drinking age is 21. Almost everyone drives at 16.

  169. Gram3 wrote:

    Thanks for the pointers and personal perspective. How does a child like that learn to synthesize the facts or even care about what the facts mean? Or is there an inevitable mismatch between fact acquisition and analysis? I get what you are saying about the kid being a real kid and about the brutality of not fitting in. How could I encourage the child and the family without adding to the problem with my amazement at this ability?

    I’m really not sure myself. The main thing I remember was needing large amounts of emotional support — reassurance that I was loved and wanted, needed and safe. Because things can get scary, overwhelmed by a big bad world out there. One of my things was (and is) spiraling out-of-control into worst-case scenarios. The My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic episode “Lesson Zero” is my type example of how that sort of thing can snowball and put you on the edge of a crackup.

    I’d “come alongside the kid” and act as a reality check. Since all that information is coming in at the same level of importance and truthfulness, show and teach him/her what is important and what is not, what is fact and what is fiction. Show him/her to trust your judgment and evaluation. All I remember is I was fairly introverted and obsessive when I was in full absorb-the-information mode, often too wrapped up in what I was doing to think of asking for another opinion. (And my family wasn’t the best one for questions & answers — my personality and speed of thinking was so different from theirs we pretty much talked past each other.)

    And be prepared for a wild and crazy ride and some interesting tracts of mental landscape — not only are most of the kid’s bingo-balls floating around in the draw tank, chances are you might have to run your brain on overload just to keep up. I’ve heard it said a 40+ difference in IQ can render any communication incomprehensible, and I believe it.