-In 2008, just after coming within 25 km (15.6 miles) of the surface of Enceladus, NASA’s Cassini captured this stunning mosaic as the spacecraft sped away from this geologically active moon of Saturn. NASA
“Nothing is more dangerous to one’s own faith than the work of an apologist. No doctrine of that faith seems to me so spectral, so unreal as one that I have just successfully defended in a public debate.” C. S. Lewis
ECHurch is canceled for this weekend due to my mother’s funeral.
Please feel free to have an open discussion. I do not want to have politics discussed. I am dreading 2024!
Here are two possible topics, but feel free to discuss whatever interests you.
- Cremation versus a full-body burial. My dad’s body was buried in a casket. My mother was cremated. I support both. What do you think?
- What are the pros and cons of smaller churches and megachurches? Medium-sized churches?
“Cremation versus a full-body burial. My dad’s body was buried in a casket. My mother was cremated. I support both. What do you think?”
IMHO, it’s up to the deceased, their wishes, unless an autopsy is required (determination of cause of death, suspicious circumstances, etc.)
We had a pastor that taught that cremation is the same as the Holocaust.
Funeral stuff can be highly expensive.
Dee: I wish you and yours comfort as you remember and celebrate your mom’s life. I hope there are loving people around you who can sit with you in grief when you need that.
“What are the pros and cons of smaller churches and megachurches? Medium-sized churches?”
“It’s not where we worship that counts, but how we worship — is our worship spiritual and real? Do we have the Holy Spirit’s help? For God is Spirit, and we must have His help to worship as we should. The Father wants this kind of worship from us.” (John 4:21-24 TLB)
I am soooooo undecided.
In one respect he is not wrong. They are both rather fiery events.
I will tell my loved ones to cremate me and scatter my ashes in a particular place in the mountains in Colorado in early July. Take lots of pictures on the way up to remember all the wildflowers and amazing views.
“What are the pros and cons of smaller churches and megachurches? Medium-sized churches?”
I’m taking a tangent.
The neo-Calvinist set is very big on people attending a “local” church, instead of “doing church” online or on their own. Of course, by “local” they mean “a neo-Calvinist church within a 40 minute drive of your house.” Which means the person you really click with at Bible study may turn out to live an hour away from you, which makes spending time together that much more challenging.
For the first time in a very long time, I am attending a church that is three miles away from my house, where the vast majority of attendees also live within a 5-mile radius of the church. I tell you, it is such a breath of fresh air. So much easier to actually “do life” with other church people when every get-together doesn’t involve an extra hour or more of driving.
Of course, the fresh air might also be because it’s not a neo-Calvinist church, but who’s counting?
Sarah (aka Wild Honey),
I hate driving 30 min 1 way to get to church. It is a big barrier to being involved (this is both a pro and a con). The closest is a mega (not for us). Other churches nearby just don’t seem to “fit”. Sigh.
FWIW, I have attended megas and startups. Both have many negatives. A church of about 250-300 seems to be the sweet spot for me.
Grieve. Let your love become the lifeblood of your pain. The strength of it will tell you that her years were not in vain.
That.
I think that smaller churches give a lot more opportunity for service by as many people as want to serve (and that will generally be on a volunteer or perhaps part-time paid basis). Large churches have economies of scale, so that a smaller fraction of the congregation needs to be involved to make everything function. And, the group being resource-rich, a larger proportion of these people can be paid staff.
Ministry as vocation is not a bad thing, but I get the sense that in the larger churches, the full-time vocational ministers can lose touch with what life is like for the typical person in the group. (Of course, this happens in large secular organizations, too). That’s not a good thing in a vocation that is, to a significant extent, about “serving people.”
Large churches can do things, such as run schools, that are beyond the reach of individual small congregations. I’d like to think that smaller groups could associate in order to pool resources to accomplish things like this, but perhaps there are barriers (human nature being one) to this kind of cooperation. It seems to be easier to believe that one has peace with God than to actually be at peace with one another.
I was raised in a rural church with membership less than 100. It was one of those rare places where the pastor really loved church members and they loved him. He and his dear wife made visits to every home to get to know the folks he ministered to. He married them and buried them. He rejoiced and cried with them. He made sure that no one in our rural community went without food and heat in the winter. He rallied the congregation to be involved in local mission efforts – simple things like delivering food and firewood to those in need, patching roofs, providing shelter for those impacted by storms, running an old bus through a coal-mining town to take children to Sunday School. He was always reaching out to the unchurched. Pastor Melvin knew everyone’s name; heck, he even knew their dog’s name! He loved Jesus and talked every Sunday about Him. He had a servant’s heart. He had no aspirations to be a celebrity pastor or participate in mega-mania. When he died, the church overflowed at his funeral. I was young and now am old … I’ve never found another place or pastor like that. I suppose that’s why I comment on TWW about the abuses of the counterfeit church; I’ve known the genuine.
That’s why you will find multiple Southern Baptist churches in communities across America. It all started with one SBC church, usually called ‘First’ Baptist. They eventually got to fussing and fighting about something (Southern Baptists are known for that), leading to a church split = 2nd SBC church in town, usually called “Second” Baptist. Eventually, members got sideways with each other, and some left to form a 3rd SBC church in town, usually called something like “New Hope” Baptist … etc. etc. The contention and division continued until there were more SBC churches in town than fast food joints. Today, there are 45,000+ SBC churches in America. My community has a population of only 10,000 folks … there are 18 Southern Baptist churches within a 10 mile radius.
Max–we were blessed at one time to live outside a tiny burg with an official population of two. BUT it was both farm country and oilfield country so we had a thriving but tiny SBC church of depending on the oil boom and bust, 25-50 people. When we had potlucks and special events we could top 100. We could afford no full time pastor. A bivo pastor from a town 35 miles away agreed to “supply the pulpit” for $25 a month. Said it would cover his gas. (Yeah, gas was around 19 cents a gallon then lol.) After a month or two he decided we needed him to come on Sunday nights also, and in another month on Wednesday evenings. No extra pay needed since he considered that his home church now and would drive to it even if he were not paid or preaching or teaching. Of course we soon realized the $25 was regularly going in the operating expenses aka plate every month. Our outhouse did not run up the water bill. A neighbor’s well kept the tank for the kitchen supplied. And one winter we did run out of propane in January and had to make do with dressing warmer until summer. Like your pastor, our Bro. Gene made sure everyone was ok every week. Visted regularly. Preached salvation like no one could!
He was the only pastor we ever had that told his church he could not NOT preach, so thanked us for the opportunity.
12 of him plus the Holy Spirit could set the world on fire.
Max,
He was the real McCoy Max.
A far cry from the perfect-fashion-conscious-facebook pulpit dandies of today.
Cremation or casket makes no difference to me.
Dust I am and to dust I will return.
What are the pros and cons of smaller churches and megachurches? Medium-sized churches?
Megachurch isn’t even an option for me, since the closest one is 75 slippery miles away. The biggest church in our county is a stealth SBC one 27 miles away. The church I attend has outgrown 2 meeting places already and is heading toward medium-sized. Last Sunday I watched the service online but had to deliver things for a potluck — the parking lot was packed! Close to 100 there. However, I did make the midweek Bible study which had fewer than 20, and my wife made the monthly prayer meeting — one of just 8 pray-ers including one elder and no pastor…. I’m better acquainted in many ways (and for far longer) with y’all than many of my fellow local parishioners. I’m sure this is my fault. I find it difficult in church settings to talk about serious spiritual matters-/ mostly small talk or health or family member concerns. Whereas, I can read y’all’s comments and be edified through the great variety of your spiritual gifts.
Max,
““It’s not where we worship that counts, but how we worship — is our worship spiritual and real? Do we have the Holy Spirit’s help? For God is Spirit, and we must have His help to worship as we should. The Father wants this kind of worship from us.”
+++++++++++++++
worship
what the…
i’m really at a loss for what this even means.
–is anyone here really confident of their understanding?
–and are you equally confident that you actually engage in it?
–finally, what’s the point? what’s the freakin’ point?
.
.
(my mini bio:
–i’ve grown up christian.
–have a degree in religious studies.
–was involved in music in church for, oh, a few decades.
–if a church service is worship, i left most thinking “this is dumb and embarrassing.”
–my own integrity (artistic & moral) can’t tolerate the institution any longer.)
Muff Potter,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH2w6Oxx0kQ
“God is spirit, and those who worship him ‘must’ worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24)
Well, here’s my take on that verse. Since becoming a “Done” (after 70+ years of doing church), I’ve come to develop a better appreciation of what that verse means for me (at least in my pea brain). In the churches I experienced over my life (and, boy, did I experience some dandy ones!), there was too much religious tradition to really worship “in spirit and truth” during a typical Sunday morning service. Most of the time I experienced the church, rather than experiencing God in worship. IMO, there is too much pulpit performance, too much entertainment, too many doctrinal jots & tittles, too many distractions in a typical Sunday morning service to genuinely worship (at least for me).
Jesus said “I am the Way, THE TRUTH, and the Life” … He also said “The Word is TRUTH”. From that, I’ve come to realize that we (me) can only worship God genuinely “in truth” through a personal encounter with Jesus and not through doctrinal propositions about Him. I ‘must’ do that “in spirit” with my whole heart and soul, as opposed to relying on religious traditions and rituals served up at most churches.
Jesus said “They worship Me in vain [their worship is meaningless and worthless, a pretense], Teaching the precepts of men as doctrines [giving their traditions equal weight with the Scriptures]. You disregard and neglect the commandment of God, and cling [faithfully] to the tradition of men … You are experts at setting aside and nullifying the commandment of God in order to keep your [man-made] tradition and regulations.” (Mark 7:7-13 AMP)
I figure that’s what I was doing during most of my Christian experience. My young grandsons have been taught by my daughter to have a daily TAWG (Time Alone With God). Good advice for all of us … it’s during that time through prayer and study of His Word that I have come to experience what true worship means (for me and my pea brain). It’s a journey and I haven’t arrived yet, but I keep pressing forward.
Agreed. It’s tough to find a spiritual fellowship at church. Most churchgoers are religious, but spiritually destitute.
Amen, Max. I am one who yeah, truly does worship more at the lake than in church. Or in the mountains than in church. Or on the back porch than in church.
But I never saw church as a place for worship. That came late to my experience among the SBC. I was always taught and always believed church services were NOT worship services, but rather preaching services, also known as evangelistic service. Sort of your local Billy Graham crusade center.
The local LCMS pastor has told us we should be willing, when travelling, to find a church within a two hour one way drive to attend. Which would mean four hours off course. Never. Not. Jesus is always on the road with us.
Psalm 29:2
“ Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name; worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.”
Worship is the right, fitting, and delightful response of moral beings—angelic and human—to God the Creator, Redeemer, and Consummator, for who he is as one eternal God in three persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—and for what he has done in creation and redemption, and for what he will do in the coming consummation, to whom be all praise and glory, now and forever, world without end.
Amen.
(from Reformation Worship:Liturgies from the Past for the Present)
Muff Potter,
Did you happen to make it to the Forum one of the last two weekends?
Did you mean Kansas at the Inglewood forum?
Nope, I saw them at the Pala Casino 5 or 6 years ago.
Muff Potter,
No. Eagles.
I sang the following old hymn to my grandsons when they were babies. When they were old enough to talk, I would stop at the end of a lyric and they shouted out the last word. He does indeed walk and talk with us on our journey.
“I come to the garden alone
While the dew is still on the roses
And the voice I hear falling on my ear
The son of God discloses
[Chorus]
And he walks with me and he talks with me
And he tells me I am his own
And the joy we share as we tarry there
None other has ever known
[Verse 2]
He speaks and the sound of his voice is so sweet
The birds hush their singing
And the melody that he gave to me
Within my heart is ringing
[Chorus]
And he walks with me and he talks with me
And he tells me I am his own
And the joy we share as we tarry there
None other has ever known”
Lowlandseer,
I have no disagreement.
But what is worship?
Sure it’s not conditioned responses of stand up, “you may be seated”, (repeat a few times),
singing songs you dislike with words you don’t necessarily mean and it’s so unpleasant and cringe-worthy that your toes are curling backwards,
and observing someone drone on for 30-45 minutes (trying hard to pay attention and get something out if it).
Max,
Very sweet.
when my kids were very young and would be afraid at night, I’d sing them the song
“we are standing
on holy ground,
and I know that there are angels
all around…”
It brought them comfort.
We went Disneyland. My husband took our 3 year old daughter to the restroom (the men’s room). She took her time.
As my husband waited with many other dads, lo, a tiny voice intoned round about them, reverberating off the tile,
“we are standing
on holy ground,..,”
Cutting across time and space now to say it was truly funny.
Elastigirl,
hahahahahaha … I can hear her singing now! I bet she still sings that song when she is afraid. Good job, Mama.
My parents went with cremation. I’ll probably choose that when I get around to making pre-need plans. Which is the point I want to make. Do your families a favor, figure out whether you want to be buried or cremated prior to and then get it arranged and paid for before you need it. Because there are two things certain in life: death and taxes. I’m telling you, we had a lot to worry about when Dad and then Mom died, but one thing we did NOT worry about was having to worry about funeral arrangements.
I’ll just say that my parents were so cute when they presented me with the wallet cards for cremation. It was like they were teenagers and they’d put one over on the adults (me). Probably because I didn’t want to talk about them dying and they had talked about it and what they wanted done.
So yeah–figure out what you want done with your remains after you die and then take care of the arrangements. Those you leave behind will bless you for that.
I am one who yeah, truly does worship more at the lake than in church. Or in the mountains than in church. Or on the back porch than in church
linda,
Yeah. I truly get that. — 100% born and bred country girl. I was to sick and weak to do things I love to do for years, but I’m doing better now so have been going (hiking?) down into the woods almost every day for the past few months. I look across through the trees, down the lick, across the lick at the bluffs on one side, the cross over to the other side and look back……….. I see more of God’s glory, feel and breathe in more God, experience more appreciation, feel more blessed, there than I guess I’ve ever have in a church.
No demanding, or bossy, or self-righteous people down in there to distract me maybe?
Totally get what you’re saying and it sounds awesome.
Question on “doing life”.
First, for me the term seems like a catch phrase. After years of using it myself, I’ve asked if we are really “doing life” together, my answers come to a questionable assessment. I don’t think we are. I’m doing life with my family, where deep commitment is shared, but with those at church that similar commitment just isn’t there, or is super rare and not dependent on even attending the church. Now, the term seems manipulative (not from you), and a bit hyperbolic. A term churches, church leaders and parishioners alike, use to rally folks to increase participation but to an interaction that really doesn’t exist. I don’t think that is necessary for a healthy community.
What do you think? Am I overthinking “doing life”? How do you see it?
Do you think there will be more revelations about the John Stackhouse debacle? He just released a new book and posts on X and Facebook indicate he believes life just goes on.
YES! I see God more in His creation than anywhere inside a building. Experiencing His creation always leads to worship. For, me it’s not about music, it’s about His beauty which is everywhere. Now music is included in that beauty, but it’s only a part like every other part.
The desire to have smaller churches pretty much aligns with Dunbar’s Number:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number
Max,
“I’ve come to realize that we (me) can only worship God genuinely “in truth” through a personal encounter with Jesus and not through doctrinal propositions about Him…
it’s during that time through prayer and study of His Word that I have come to experience what true worship means”
+++++++++++++
thank you, Max, for taking the time to write out your thoughts.
a personal encounter with Jesus/God/Holy Spirit — like when you spend quality time with someone and you feel closer to them. at my prayer group, we read several verses, and focus on God, and i experience ‘them’ when I pray.
maybe that is worship.
thank you, again, Max.
Elastigirl,
What you describe is something far removed from worship. Worship is bowing down before God in adoration of His being and expressing our thankfulness for His (undeserved) goodness to us. It is a solemn but joyful event knowing that you are entering into His presence in community with other believers just like those approaching mount Zion in years gone by -“I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the Lord”. It’s a combination of thankfulness for past mercies, present blessings and future hope and awe that such a great God should have seen our state, heard our cry and sent His Son to be our Saviour. Worship is a foretaste of Heaven.
And on a personal note there is nothing more stirring than to know “This is the generation of them that seek Him, that seek thy face O God of Jacob“ and to sing “Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
8 Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.
9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.
“In 2004, the SBC of the US left the Baptist World Alliance after it had accused then-BWA President Kim of adopting a liberal theology because of his support for the pastoral ministry of women, its alleged anti-Americanism, and because member denominations including the American Baptist Churches USA allow the autonomy of its churches to perform same sex marriages. Alliance Secretary General Denton Lotz replied that the Alliance was not liberal, but evangelical conservative, that the American Baptist Churches USA in its constitution believed only in marriage between a man and a woman and that any accusations of anti-Americanism had resulted from his visits to Fidel Castro in Cuba for the import of Bibles and the expansion of the freedom of belief. The SBC also claimed the Alliance refused to discuss abortion stances. In a General Council Resolution, the Alliance lamented the widespread resort to abortion but acknowledges the diversity of views [rape & incest?] and calls on Baptists to honor each individuals freedom of conscience. In 2005, two state denomination members of the Southern Baptist Convention, the Baptist General Association of Virginia and the Baptist General Convention of Texas, applied for membership in the Alliance and were admitted.” – wikipedia
1. Women pastors
2. Same sex marriage
3. Abortion
Amen! Scripture says that all creation is groaning, waiting for the children of God inside those buildings to get it right! (Romans 8)
https://www.churchlawandtax.com/manage-finances/internal-controls/how-a-church-responded-when-a-trusted-minister-embezzled-funds/
$830,000 embezzled by the Senior Missions Pastor …
And the other pastors said, “I know he would never do that. He’s my best friend – this is impossible, not the man I know.”
Trust. Violated.
Also note, one of the attorneys said that when churches go the grace + restitution route (instead of LE + DOJ), he has never seen even $1 paid back. Restitution alone or the Get Out Of Jail Free Card for offenders, never works.
Correction: “Associate Missions Minister”
First Baptist Houston.
I “do life” with those I work with (I’m retired now) … I “do life” with family … I “do life” with neighbors. But when it comes to “doing life” with other believers there should be a spiritual dimension which is missing in most churches. We are to fellowship in spirit and truth when we gather in Jesus’ name, rather than “doing life” following religious traditions and teachings of mere men. Over the course of 2,000 years, we have lost track of what that means, IMO. I think that’s the frustration you note when you say “doing life … with those at church … just isn’t there, or is super rare and not dependent on even attending the church.” Your soul longs for more when you interact with other believers and it’s spiritually frustrating when you can’t experience that in church.
Praise God!
Aren’t family and neighbors believers? At least some family and neighbors?
How many “other believers” does it take to do church? To be church?
What are the deal-makers and deal-breakers? IMHO, the larger the group, the more the compromise regarding beliefs and lifestyle. Which is not always a bad thing … tolerance and flexibility can be good.
Our neighbors are believers but they smoke. We get along fine, but prefer to avoid secondhand smoke so we don’t socialize except outdoors in good weather.
Mr. Ted Koppel notes that Ideology ≠ Facts. True. Well-stated.
Our Creator God is a fact.
Jesus’ resurrection is fact.
God’s Holy Spirit indwelling and GIFTING Jesus’ followers is a fact.
With these three important facts, who needs ideology, anyway?
Yes, some are … and we are able to spiritually fellowship together … it’s so refreshing when that happens!
Before I retired, I traveled a lot in the U.S. and Europe. It’s amazing how many believers I encountered (at a business meeting, at a conference, in the seat next to me on the plane, etc.). I’m convinced that God put us together. During those brief times together, we fellowshipped in spirit and truth.
You, me, and Jesus .. and we will have church!
Due to the fact that he said he has obtained lawyers, ostensibly to go after the school, people are probably watching and waiting. Yes, life goes on and the pain of those left behind is rarely discussed.
James,
PS https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/john-stackhouse-crandall-university-1.7078390
Same here.
Half way down the Baja peninsula, the star fields at night are (for me) a church with no equal. There are so many of them (stars) that it’s hard to pick out the major constellations.
Max,
Amen.
https://network.crcna.org/topic/spiritual-formation/lets-talk-about/case-one-another-see-these-59-commands-bible
The 59 One Anothers in the church that are ignored or obliterated by the Church Hierarchy People.
Church One Another Followers of Jesus vs Church Hierarchy Followers of Jesus.
It is a great day to worship! It is extremely cold here today, with a light powdered sugar dusting of snow blanketing the ground and outlining all the branches on the trees.
The woods are silent when it snows. The bird feeders are being hit hard, especially the suet feeder.
Fireplace is cozily giving warmth, beautiful flames, and soft crackling sounds. Even the slightly running water faucets (to prevent freezing) are cozy sounding.
I hope you can mentally see the hardwood forest, some pines and cedars mixed in, and the snow. Think of our bright red cardinals. And the white tail deer that peek out of the woods every so often. Watch the squirrels sticking their heads out of a hollow tree and deciding nah, the acorns and black walnuts we stowed in here are enough for today.
And worship the Prince of Peace.
I think a lot of the frustration of doing church in America is based on the way we do church on Sunday mornings. We listen to someone preach, shake a few hands, smile whether we want to or not, slam dunk a couple of songs, finish with a prayer and go home. During my long tenure (70+ years) of doing that kind of church, only a few pastors worked to engage the people of God “to be church” in the community … to reach out to those in need, to share Jesus with hurting people, to patch roofs, cut firewood, deliver groceries, take care of orphans and widows, visit the sick in hospitals and nursing homes, etc. etc. … you know, the kind of stuff Jesus called us to do as the people He called us to be. In the absence of that, churchgoers (like the Southern Baptists I experienced) have plenty of time to fuss and fight with each other over the color of the carpet or color of the preacher, while the color of their souls grew darker. If a group of people are not equipped to do the ministry, mobilized in their unique giftings, and engaged in the Great Commission together, what’s the point? Personally, I’m done with doing church without God. I find Him in plenty of other places than the organized church. Perhaps that’s the problem … we do more organizing than agonizing.
AKA The Troop-Size Limit, the maximum number of people you can see as individuals instead of just a number.
And all of them fighting with each other?
“DIE, HERETICS!”?
Sounds like Church One Another vs. Church Hierarchy.
https://network.crcna.org/topic/spiritual-formation/lets-talk-about/case-one-another-see-these-59-commands-bible
Yep, we experience one another more in church than experiencing God there. Years ago, I volunteered for an evangelistic ministry. I was asked to meet with a group of pastors in a nearby city who were considering bringing that ministry to town for an evangelistic crusade. I presented an overview of the ministry and discussed how things were typically coordinated for such a large event. The group was a diverse mixture of denominations and theologies – charismatics, fundamentalists, Calvinists, non-Calvinists, Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, and other religious folks. It was clear in the Q&A session that they just didn’t get along well; you could cut the contention with a knife. After the meeting, I reported back to my contact at the ministry “No need to waste your precious time coming here. The pastors in this city are not done experiencing each other yet, let alone experience God together. Send your team elsewhere.”
Lowlandseer,
Hi, Lowlandseer.
Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.
Assuming you don’t literally bow down, i think what i very briefly described about my prayer group is pretty close to what you’re saying — just in a very pared down kind of way, without the descriptive language.
now that i think about it, it’s exactly what you describe.
and i do experience God’s presence. we all leave the prayer meeting exhaling deeply, as if we just had a back massage or foot massage…or other kind of ‘release’.
if this is what ‘worship’ is, it seems it’s a mutually positive and enjoyable thing, God & us.
.
.
i continually try to figure out what these high fallutin’ christian words mean because for too many years i was caught up in a kind of church vortex that took over my life — i lost a sense of any of what we were doing means.
very much like repeating a word over and over again – it becomes a new weird word, removed from any meaning whatsoever.
(strawberrystrawberrystrawberry = reestrahbear, or eestrabare, or rawbehrstra)
Max,
Clarification.
Actually, the article of the link, has quite a different message from your comment.
The article is quoting 59 verses that state lateral relationships with each other in the church, instead of topdown hierarchical relationships in church.
Love God all in, yes, then love your neighbor as yourself. Love one another. 59 One Anothers.
Your earlier Comments referred to Calvinistic takeovers in churches with authoritarian control (without leaders’ consequences) at the top, authoritarian leaders.
The church as a Love One Another org, is far different from topdown Hierarchy.
Well I hope that’s not the case here — maybe I’m the spirituality destitute one — I get the idea we’ve a lot of mature and gifted people and the churchy activities, as described in comments above, don’t really allow much room.
Indeed.
You’re one up on me.
I was Christian for most of my life and can’t even explain the Trinity.
I read the article ‘after’ I responded to your comment. Yes, indeed, “One Another” church is an entirely different beast than the authoritarian church. Scripture exhorts us to love one another, fellowship with one another, be engaged in the Great Commission with one another. May we see an outbreak of One Another churches in America!
Nor can I.
I’ve looked at various youtube vids that claim to explain it, but to no avail.
What I’ve seen so far, is a lot of hocus-pocus and mumbo-jumbo that must be accepted on faith.
To their credit though, they try to give it (Trinity) a sort of geometric soundness with an equi-lateral triangle.
I’m still computing.
A comprehensive e plantation of the Trinity by the BBC of all people. I hope some of you find it useful
https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/beliefs/trinity_1.shtml
Lowlandseer,
From the article
Unpacking the doctrine
The idea that there is One God, who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit means:
There is exactly one God
The Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God
The Father is not the Son
The Son is not the Holy Spirit
The Father is not the Holy Spirit
An alternate way of explaining it is:
There is exactly one God
There are three really distinct Persons – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
Each of the Persons is God
Common mistakes
The Trinity is not
Three individuals who together make one God
Three Gods joined together
Three properties of God.
Sorry… still not getting it
Jesus refers to “his father”. When he was baptized the holy spirit came upon him
If all three are “god” then maybe it’s “quantum mechanics” thing….
Calvinary, or Calvarin
Linda,
Thank you for your beautiful comment. 🙂 I can totally relate to the cold temperatures….we just finished a freezing darn cold snap with temperatures of minus 40 C, and a wind chill in some areas of minus 55 C.
In ontology expressed as integers, one, and two, are merely attenuated special cases of three and more.
The Holy Trinity (unlike the chic and cliquey I And Thou) models room for the other other: the orphans and the widows, you and me.
Boundaries are like membranes: places for healthy exchange. The real transcendental is acceptance of the outside and inside, each for their own worth, at the same time.
linda,
Thanks Linda for painting a beautiful winter picture! There’s nothing like them thar Ozark hills with snow on the ground! Keep your faucets dripping and the bird feeders full. The Creator had a good idea for changing seasons. Spring and crappie fishing just around the corner!
How about Calvinus? … https://calvinus.ch/en/our-beers/
Max,
Calivanting.
Expicalidocious.
Calerrific.
This is why Mt 18 is about righting a wrong between equals. If the wrong ‘un wouldn’t put it right quietly, get the church on your side on the assumption they have got lots of Holy Spirit frank discernment (and tact).
Mt 18 is not a procedure for getting permission to share an honest idea. In a church where the congregants don’t care what any leadership are saying wrong, expect nothing: they have annulled Mt 18.
Jesus and Paul also said – pray lots, all the time.
Max,
Are “evangrueli-cals” (gruel in both senses) trying (subconsciously) to hollow us out? Scripture tells us, safeguard the gift that is IN you.
On another web site recently:
The deliberate infliction of pain on others for personal pleasure, was something I was introduced to at school by the [ name of denomination ] teacher there. He was part of a sadistic punishment system, noted elsewhere by many others including Nicky Campbell.
John Smyth’s ministrations were part of a similar system, and his victims and students are now in high office across the Church.
… It took decades to start to understand the impact psychologically of what went on at school, and other places. It colours your life.
But it does enable empathy with others and an appreciation of how deep sadistic and perverted practices are embedded at the heart of Church life led by men of that generation, who haven’t yet or will ever accept the imperfections of their own formation.
As Nicky Campbell and others have shown, when Survivors emerge and pool resources, things begin to change. Obviously some didn’t survive, and we mourn them.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62308621 ( note ref to a “scripture” union )
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/aug/22/nicky-campbell-scottish-child-abuse-inquiry-edinburgh-academy
In my (day school) class aged 14, teachers said we had to do things to girls (and a dozen years later my church retreat leader said I was in contravention of theology of the body). The department head of those teachers, who was Christian Union convenor, himself “hit on” a boy and left in a hurry. How many of my classmates have found themselves normalising some abusive attitudes around them? Was the trendy “evangelly-mould” * an attempted distraction? (Rev Stott, the establishment broadcaster, had been subject to “Bash Nash” since his teens.)
{ * my mischievous pentecostal pal’s expression }
Anita Mathias’ almost throwaway remark on Nash: “It was a highly focussed strategy: “the best boys from the best schools.” It was not Jesus’s strategy, though. Jesus appeared to take riff-raff who had tough characters–but hey, who can argue with success. The mystery of influence!”
https://anitamathias.com › 2011 › 06 › 08 › e-j-h-nash-the-man-who-converted-michael-green-john-stott-david-watson-and-nicky-gumbel
Under the title: E J H Nash, the Man who Converted Justin Welby, Nicky Gumbel, John …
Anita again: “preaching a simple evangelical gospel at the top 30” schools; another of the red flag words to my mind: “simple” = Small Commission; irrelevant mini-gospel (no Holy Spirit).
From https://www.tes.com/teaching-resource/eric-bash-nash-12506351 :
… aged 19, on a train journey back to Maidenhead, he [Nash] finally faced and responded to the claims of Christ upon his life He *had a vision in a railway carriage that he was to win Britain for Christ.
One or two years later he fully acknowledged Christ as Master and Lord.
In 1922 encouraged and supported by Arthur Winnington-Ingram, Bishop of London he went to Trinity College, Cambridge and then Ridley Hall
He used military terms. He used Christian staff from the schools. He used the ABC formula
Admit your need of Christ
Believe that Christ died for you
Come to Him
His influence stretched to University Christian Unions
I don’t see what’s final when you are 19 – or like Zacharias, 17 and in hospital. Is this another Goligher-like, or Long family-like, dutifulness instance? Aren’t 57 or 51 year olds going to be allowed to go in search of the whole gospel instead?
Lloyd-Jones, the more genuine calvinist (there was such a – uncalvinlike – thing) who had been a professional doctor, advised the then evangelicals to be at peace inside and outside mixed denominations. Lloyd-Jones just didn’t “smell dutiful”!
More advice from Anita in: https://anitamathias.com/2024/01/03/do-not-be-afraid-but-do-be-prudent/
passages taken from a site I haven’t given the URL of
The lengths of all three sides are equal as well as the three internal angles of the figure.
One thing that it demonstrates nicely, is that there’s no hierarchy in the Trinity.
Wasn’t it awhile back that one of those geniuses tried to insert a pecking order into the Trinity in order to argue a Church pecking order based in gender?
Yes, one of the NeoCal whiz kids came up with his own theology, lowering Jesus below God = “Eternal Subordination of the Son”. If he could get away with that, it was easy to assign half (or more) of the Body of Christ to gender subordination, calling it “the beauty of complementarity.” If things aren’t working for you, I guess it’s OK to mix things up a bit if you have “Theologian” hanging off your name.
Michael in UK,
The Great Kermission (2025)
I do not understand your “Goligher” or “Long Family” references.
I DO understand that Danascus Road ZAP! conversion experiences make for Juicy Testimonies but have this way of going real sour over time. Like the Hyperfocus I experienced in-country, always trying to get back to that dopamine fix of the Moment of Conversion, never able to get beyond it, never able to grow. (Or should that be Grow Up?)
I’ve also heard “Bash Nash” mentioned here in some other contexts, mostly in connection to “Jack the Whipper” Smyth.
Huh?
Integers aren’t anything, they are just themselves.
Muff Potter,
I meant enumeration in plurality, being expressed thus, that’s all!
Better put: three is the epitome of three and more, which is why the Holy Trinity implies the opposite of a cliquey attitude. There can’t be relating without distinct individuality.
This is how One God can relate to many people without demanding they be clones.
I’m trying to counter the accepted disjunction between practice seen as bad manners, and (church order as sole) doctrine, while so many people throw up their hands and claim “it’s mysterious”!
You are very right and that’s how They take in 360 degrees (diameter being twice radius, hence twice sum of angles).
A plane, drawn on paper or screen, maps not only a simplified universe but even a globe surface (takes in everyone).
The chariots in Ezekiel, which are defending and providing us, go in all four directions, to wherever we are.
I was often told to stop thinking visually, until a workplace coach advised me I should revert to it. Both you and I also learned to not deny meaning where it is (the image in which we are made).
Did someone tell Pastor Goligher, after dropping strange refs to NF in his 2007 interview, that it would be his duty to move somewhere like Tenth?
R A Long had already been “restored” a k a re-pressganged into major volunteering at Crabtree First in Milton GA (near to the RZ neighbourhood coincidentally – I couldn’t help but notice). At 20 he hadn’t the presence of mind to coolly drop out and go agnostic. His parents suddenly evicted him.