James Webb’s brand-new look at Sun-like stars being born in this detailed close-up of Rho Ophiuchi, the closest-star-forming region to Earth.
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” Elie Wiesel
In 2016, I posted the following post below titled Why Would an Orthodox, Gospel, Holy Spirit Filled Theologian Like Francis Schaeffer Abuse His Wife? I asked some rather tricky questions with which I still struggle occasionally. The reason I reposted it was due to a conversation on Twitter in which a person was startled but appeared to accept Schaeffer physically and emotionally abused his wife, Edith. I offered to repost my thoughts, which I have done without deleting anything.
This post was written seven years ago, and abusive church pastors and leaders continue to be in the news. Some might say that the stories of abuse have increased. I would agree. I continue to be concerned that followers of celebrity leaders or even a small-town pastor with breathless adherents cannot or will not accept that their leaders have clay feet. These followers frequently tell me, “I know my pastor, and he would never do anything like that.”
I have often responded that unless one lives with a person 24/7, one does not know what goes on behind closed doors. Since then, we have watched the fall of Christian leaders like Ravi Zacharias and pastors like Andy Savage. My journey into Lutheranism has helped me deal with everything I see and must write about. Those who continue to believe must accept that we will continue to see both the powerful and the not-so-powerful fall. Each time I think of Martin Luther: “Simul justus et peccator.” We who understand this should understand that men like Zacharias and the 300+ pastors, as documented by the Houston Chronicle walk among us and use our naiveté to prey on the faithful.
Here is a quote by Os Guinness regarding the allegations. Guinness used to be a leader in the L’Abri community.
Os Guinness writes, the portrait Frank paints of his parents “amounts to the death-dealing charge of hypocrisy and insincerity at the very heart of their work.…The thousands of people, who over the decades came to L’Abri and came to faith or deepened in faith, were obviously conned.”
(Update) Guinness appears to be defending the perspective that Frank Jr. was not telling the truth and that he, along with all the others, knew what was really going on. This is exactly the point I was trying to make. It is very difficult for those who love Schaeffer, and I used to be one of those, to believe that he could be an abuser.
Could you look at my questions at the end of the post? I realize that I understand that abusers are among us and to be on our guard. My questions go far deeper. Where is the conviction of the Holy Spirit in the life of these confessed leaders/believers? Are those who abuse committed followers of Jesus? Is the faith somehow applicable to men like Zacharias? Were the visitors to L’Abri conned? Have any of these leaders, caught in abuse, honestly and humbly repented? I have another post coming on that subject.
In the meantime, I plan to discuss Gwen Shamblin’s unusual cult-like group, the Remnant, which is alive and well and hurting people.
Begin original post:
In about a week, TWW received two emails that discussed some serious sins and the lack of response by the churches involved. Both churches have pastors that almost every reader here would immediately know. One woman said, “I bet you don’t believe me. No one does.” I answered, “I have no reason, at this point, not to believe you.”
Why did I answer like this? It is because of this blog. We have posted story after story of grave sin committed by Christian leaders. When we do, we inevitably get pushback. Some claim we are lying. Others say they go to his church and *know* he couldn’t do anything like that. Others say we shouldn’t talk about it because it is gossip and hurts the church when these things get out.
It is next to impossible to keep the sins of the pastor celebrities hidden because they exist in the public eye. Most of them will say, “I am not perfect,” but they never tell us what they mean by that. They could mean that they disobey speed limits or overeat. But they could also mean that they molest kids. When the bad thing that is done is finally revealed, their followers often state “Well, they said they weren’t perfect.”
As I take a long view of Scripture, it seems that serious sin is part and parcel of the lives of all Christians. I don’t want to get into a discussion of whether *so and so* is or is not a Christian. In the end, it is up to God to make that decision. Can we assume that because someone is a well-known theologian-type Christian, they are somehow less sinful than me, the *Joe Average* Christian?
When I first became a Christian, I was encouraged to read Francis Schaeffer’s books. His view on abortion had a significant effect on my pro-life stance. In my mind, he was one of those super-Christian celebrities who really *got* the Bible. He believed that the Bible should influence society and culture. This influenced me to become involved in politics until the last decade or so, when I realized it wasn’t my hill to die on. But, Schaeffer was always high on my list of go-to authors as a young Christian.
Then, today, I learned that Francis Schaeffer abused his wife, Edith. He had a terrific temper and would hit her and throw things against walls.
Francis Schaeffer allegedly physically abused his wife, Edith.
(ed. This link no longer works but I stand by my cut and paste quotes.CT seems to have removed it.) In 2013, Christianity Today published Remembering Edith Schaeffer, the Evangelical in Pearls and Chanel No. 5.
Of course, Edith didn’t really let us in on the secrets of the Schaeffer family; her son, Frank, did that later in his books Crazy for God and Sex, Mom, and God, telling us of Francis’ fits of abusive rage and apparent sex addiction, Edith’s periods of manic activity and her obsession with maintaining the impression of her family’s perfection, and his own drug use and sexual activity with the pretty hippie girls who dropped by L’Abri, all of which his parents knew about and carefully cloaked. Even as I would’ve been helped in my early adulthood by knowing that she wasn’t really that perfect, I had to sympathize with my dad’s response to Crazy for God: “If for some reason you need to write a tell-all about me, could you please wait until I’m dead?”
…Edith was from a different time; a time when people didn’t air dirty laundry and where maintaining outward appearances was considered an important part of being a good “witness for Jesus.” I will not defend her self-abnegating vision of Christian womanhood (to the point that she seems to have tolerated abuse), nor the fact that she presented a picture of family bliss that was not, according to her children, at all accurate.
Their children appeared to take second place in Francis and Edith’s ministry.
Christianity Today published a two-part series called The Dissatisfaction of Francis Schaeffer, Part 1 and Part 2
These may have been the hardest years of marriage for the Schaeffers, both of whom were extraordinarily intense, work-centered personalities. Edith was by nature proud and competitive, and Francis had for a long time struggled with a plant-throwing, pot-smashing temper. Stormy sessions between them were not infrequent.
…Edith also took up her typewriter, publishing L’Abri in 1969. In the mid-1970s, she wrote a regular column for Christianity Today, and by 1981 had completed a total of eight books on family life and devotional topics that had sold over 1 million copies. In her writing she often voiced opposition to “women’s liberation” and the trend toward two-career families. This latter was curious, given that Francis’s wider ministry commenced for her a new full-time career as a writer and lecturer. Meanwhile, 11-year-old Franky was trundled off to English boarding school.
Francis and Edith Schaeffer were Calvinist in their perspective.
According to their son, Frank, in Sex, Mom & God
Frank indeed grew up in a strange world. Growing up the son of hardline Presbyterian missionaries in a missionary chalet and spiritual-seeker-haven in Switzerland would have to have been a very unique experience (though it must be added that many, many people count their visits and time at L’Abri as seminal moments in their own Christian journeys…and I do wish I had been old enough to visit as well). As Francis and Edith grew more popular, Frank was left alone for long periods of time as his parents went on their speaking tours. He witnessed a double-life in his parents as well that scarred him deeply. Francis had a terrible temper and would hit and throw objects at Edit
In 2014, their son Frank wrote My Parents Stayed Married Because my Father Tearfully Apologized for Hitting Mom and then Worked to Curb his Violent Male Dominant (Calvinist-Fed) Temper
Eventually, Francis apologized to Edith for hitting her (it took years) and worked on controlling his temper. Apparently, this meant giving up on his idea that men were the head of the household, according to his son.
My parents gradually learned to ignore the biblical teaching about men being the “head of the home” to our benefit.
Did Francis Schaeffer’s treatment of Edith affect today’s Calvinist teachers?
We are all aware of John Piper’s infamous video in which he said that women should endure abuse for a season. (ed. This link no longer works.)Even his attempts at clarification were not terribly helpful. I wondered if John Piper ever listened to Francis Schaeffer. Apparently, he heard Schaeffer speak at Wheaton College in the 1960s.
(The following two links no longer work. I stand by the quotes that were copied verbatim.) In 2009, John Piper recommended the following post at Crossway Francis Schaeffer and a World in Desperate Need.
Thus Schaeffer wrote, “The real problem is this: the church of the Lord Jesus Christ, individually or corporately, tending to do the Lord’s work in the power of the flesh rather than the Spirit. The central problem is always in the midst of the people of God, not in the circumstances surrounding them.” “If we do not want to waste our lives,” Schaeffer continued, “then we must understand the importance of having a humble, quiet heart and the power of the Holy Spirit.”
…Schaeffer was not a flawless man, but we can benefit greatly today from his commitment to historic Christian orthodoxy, and for his compassion to reach this desperately lost generation with the only hope there is — the gospel of Jesus Christ and the truth of God’s Word, lived out across the whole spectrum of life, in compassionate response to the degeneracy of the world and the tragic consequences this has in the lives of people everywhere
The article ends by saying this.
I would commend this sermon by Francis Schaeffer as one that has profoundly shaped the work of Crossway and that has likewise provided a frequent checkpoint and challenge to me personally — to do “the Lord’s work in the Lord’s way,” in the power of the Spirit rather than the power of the flesh, and for God’s glory alone.
But despite this theology, he beat his wife!!!!
Sure, his orthodox teachings were fine and he wanted to save the lost but he was a terror at home, raging and throwing things at the wall while smacking Edith. Is this a normal response of those who have the power of the Holy Spirit? Did Schaeffer’s theology, so admired by today’s Calvinists, make a difference in the personal lives of these men?
I have a theological dilemma, folks, and I need your help figuring it out.
How could Schaeffer abuse his wife while functioning under the power of the Holy Spirit?
Since Schaeffer was a Calvinist, it is only fair that we view the Christian life through his lens to attempt to understand his actions.
Calvinists believe that when God, via His Holy Spirit, calls His elect to come to Him, they must respond in the affirmative since he is part of the Godhead. This is irresistible Grace, the letter *I* in the TULIP.
(ed. This link no longer works. )Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that “it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy”; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out,” (John 6:37).
NAllChristians are given the Holy Spirit at the time of conversion. This is the same Holy Spirit that calls the elect to God. This is irresistible Holy Spirit now dwelling in the lives of the elect?
A number of the gospel™ boys recommended Jen Wilkin’s post Failure Is Not a Virtue at The Gospel Coalition website. Here is her construct.
If the Holy Spirit has transformed our hearts, we can obey. So says the Calvinists at TGC.
She starts off OK, stating that our hearts are now different because of the Spirit.
Interestingly, Jesus battled legalism in a different way than the celebratory failurist does. Rather than tossing out the Law or devaluing obedience to it, he called his followers to a deeper obedience (Matthew 5:17-48) than the behavior modification the Pharisees prized. He called for obedience in motive as well as in deed, the kind of godly obedience that is impossible for someone whose heart has not been transformed by the gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit
We must stop disobeying and begin obeying because the gospel gives us the freedom to obey, so they say.
She has switched from the Holy Spirit to *the gospel.*
The gospel grants both freedom from the penalty of sin and freedom to begin to obey (Rom 6:16). And what are we to obey? The Law that once gave death now gives freedom. God’s Word teaches us that behavior modification should absolutely follow salvation. It just occurs for a different reason than it does in the life of the unbeliever. Modified behavior reflects a changed heart. When Peter says we have spent enough time living as the pagans do, surely he means that it is time to stop disobeying and begin obeying
How does this work for us? Through Biblical lists and Christian leaders according to TGC.
Earnest Christians look to their church leaders and ask, “Teach me to walk in his ways.” We owe them an answer beyond, “Fail and repent.” We owe them, “This is the way, walk in it.” This way is often delineated by lists—a list of ten don’ts in Exodus 20, a list of eight do’s in Matthew 5, a list of works of the flesh (Galatians 5:22-23) and spiritual fruit (Galatians 5:22-23) in Galatians 5, and so on.
Wait, where did the Holy Spirit go? Is the Holy Spirit ineffectual in causing us to obey? Is that why we need lists?
If the Holy Spirit is effectual in calling us to Christ, why is it not effectual in stopping men like Schaeffer from abusing their wives? Surely, Schaeffer knew all of the lists given by Wilkins. He knew all of the great Christian leaders of his time as well. So, why wasn’t knowledge of Scripture, orthodox doctrine, and a zeal for God not enough to stop a man like Schaeffer from abusing Edith?
What is the difference between the Holy Spirit and the gospel in Wilkin’s treatise?
Here is the list from Galatians 5:22-23. Is the Holy Spirit effective in helping us do these things? How effectual? When does it decide to let us attempt to do good on our own instead of helping us do it? If I pray for all of these fruits each day, why doesn’t the Holy Spirit guarantee that I can do it?
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control.
Why do I ask these questions? The more I see the leaders fail in spectacular ways: adultery, pedophilia, domestic violence, child abuse, embezzlement, etc. I wonder what went wrong? Does being *orthodox* in one’s theology mean anything when it comes to sinful behavior?
I want to hear from you since I do not have any pat answers. I really, really want to know why the Holy Spirit is sometimes effectual but not effectual in stopping supposed Christian orthodox theologians and leaders who know all about the lists from abusing their spouses.
I think I would rather have seen a world without Francis Schaeffer’s works if it prevented him from abusing Edith.
I think it’s important to point out that if you read the book review from which the Is Guinness quote was taken, you’ll find that Guinness was arguing that Frank was an unreliable, untruthful narrator of his parents’ story.
I have no idea what happened in the Schaefer home, and I wouldn’t doubt that abuse would have been possible, especially given all the scandals we’ve seen since. But I don’t think Guinness would want to be quoted as if her were saying the Schaefers were hypocrites.
I’ve been a Christian for 70 years. Involved with Evangelical churches every time the doors are open. A very few people are instantly changed and convicted of their sins immediately. The great majority of us struggle all our lives with overcoming our sins. If we were convicted of all our sins at once we couldn’t handle it. The Holy Spirit convicts us daily. I’m not the person I was 70 years ago but I still have a long way to go. There is no perfection until heaven.
Throwing things at the wall is not the unpardonable sin. I’m sorry to hear he hit Edith.
( She should have hit back). I do not doubt their zeal for the Lord.
We all make mistakes raising children. Looking back we cringe at our mistakes and wish we could do some things over again.
Christians err by putting well known Christians on an idolized pedestal. Only Jesus was a perfect human.
R,
Read what I wrote carefully. I thought I showed that this was his commentary on what Frank said. I hoped it would give the perspective of one who was there. He was apparently saying something I was attempting to say, albeit poorly. Guinness believed that he, along with the others, knew the Schaeffers and their son was the one who was lying. I will add something that clarifies this. Thank you.
Denise Allen,
Also, I take anything spoiled, narcissistic, self centered, hedonistic Frank says with a grain of salt.
I have read most of his books.
I still, occasionally, walk into a bookstore hoping
a new Francis or Edith manuscript has been found!
In his book “The Body Keeps the Score,” trauma expert Dr Bessel van der Kolk recounts a bit of the story of his father, who was a political prisoner in a concentration camp during WWII, an experience that deeply scarred him. Dr van der Kolk says that he remembers as a child not knowing how to reconcile his father’s terrible fits of rage with the knowledge that his father also woke before the rest of the family daily to spend time reading the Bible.
As an aside, his father was also Calvinist.
Makes me wonder about the back story of the Schaeffers and their families of origin. Maybe the Holy Spirit IS working in them, but slowly and gradually over years and generations.
Maybe Calvinists preach so strongly on the idea of total depravity because they are living it in secret, and the Holy Spirit is convicting them of their own sin. It’s just easier to fix other people’s problems instead of their own. (To be clear, I’m guilty of the trying-to-fix-others-before-myself problem, too.)
Sarah (aka Wild Honey),
What a good comment!
Denise Allen,
I prefer his earlier works. His later works had more of a Christian nationalists feel, IMO.
I struggle with this. How can any man who claims to have the Holy Spirit in his life, hit his wife? This indicates he was an abuser which makes me question something about his integrity. If he abused his wife, what else was he doing. Abuse cuts write to the heart of the matter. It is not a mistake. It is not only a sin but a crime in the US. If the police saw it, he could have been charged.
The Holy Spirit’s gift of discernment to certain individuals in the Body of Christ as stated in 1 Corinthians 12.10 is given to God’s people for a reason.
As Dateline covers tonight, the Gilgo Beach serial killer was a highly respected architect, married with children. This Jekyll & Hyde worked professionally with people that had NO idea.
What do we really know about the people in our lives? God knows. And apparently, God wants us to know because the Holy Spirit gifts supernatural discernment to the church.
For years, the Suffolk County police chief in charge of the Gilgo murder cases boxed in the case and would NOT let the FBI collaborate with their far superior resources. The FBI figures the chief was hiding his own dirt. Once that obstructionist police chief was arrested and put aside (yes, he was hiding offenses), new leadership eventually solved the case by finding Rex Heuerman.
Pastors today likewise box in their churches under the umbrella of their sole gift and perhaps one more, the gift of giving or the gift of financial assistance. All the other (18 total) gifts of the Holy Spirit are never acknowledged.
Have any of the other Schaeffer children spoken to these allegations? Have they denied them?
Note: I don’t have this gift but I have seen it in action,truly God’s glory to behold. God doesn’t mess around with evil.
Makes one wonder what the gift of pastoring as gifted to the church by the Holy Spirit – what does this look like? In contrast, funded by constantly collecting donations but NOT bought and paid for by Jesus’ death and resurrection is definitely not the real deal from the Holy Spirit for the glory of God.
According to Frank Schaeffer, his parents had other issues, such as the financial support of their family. Where God guides, He provides. That was missing. Which looks very odd with Os Guiness in their circle at L’Abri. Guiness, heir to the beverage dynasty, is worth 10-12 million. Why didn’t he help the Schaeffer ministry if he had such high regard for the Schaeffers. Cold. Colder than a pint fresh from the chiller on a hot afternoon.
‘Zeal for the Lord’ has caused untold human suffering.
So what makes it any different than any other ‘zeal’?
And well you should.
That is the 64,000 dollar question isn’t it?
Let’s call a spade a spade.
Schaeffer had about as much ‘holy spirit’ as Mao Tse-tung.
The colloquy of Montbéliard. between Jakob Andrea and Beza has been translated in English. Very eyes opening about the enormous gap between Calvinism and Luther. Ruth Magnuson Davis is demonstrating this in all her work. In Coverdale book on Psalm 23 which is a translation of Luther commentary, Mrs Davis adds Calvin’s commentary on the same psalm. Not the same spirit.
The time of Calvin in Geneva was a time of terror if we read non supporter books. 2 Spanish reformers left very much unhappy, and Reina, translator of the Spanish Bible was called Moise when he could go to England. So many people followed him. I really believe that the canton de Vaud, next to Geneva, was annexed to Bern,by the Grace of God, so that,?good citizen could flee and escape death penalty(been quartered or work by the cords).(Bolsec).(I am French speaking)
At the beginning of the Puritans Bible (Calvinist) they wrote that they made the Bible more obscur so that to keep reference to God, all so sad.
Leavened bread in communion? Calvin!!
Maybe Schaeffer believed that abusing his wife was what the Calvinist God required?
Perhaps it would be sound to distinguish between the “work of the Spirit in a person’s life” and the idea of “the location of the Spirit being within that person”. The biblical locution “full of the Spirit” would imply “the Spirit working powerfully in that person” as opposed to a more mechanical idea of the person as a container that the Spirit filled as a liquid fills an empty bottle.
There is a “mechanical” metaphor in the NT (and OT), but it is a corporate metaphor — the assembly of believers is a temple in which God dwells through the Spirit. (Seemingly the same idea in OT, with the Spirit present above or within the Tabernacle or Temple, respectively.)
In the corporate metaphor, the Spirit “indwells” the group . He is “with” believers at the individual level, but “in” groups of believers.
On this hypothesis, the Spirit inhabits the interpersonal spaces between believers. The “dwells en you(pl.)” language in Paul may refer primarily to the Spirit dwelling in groups (among the members of the groups), as opposed to within individuals. The quality of those spaces, if good, will promote the work of the Spirit within the individuals in that relationship, and if bad will hinder the work. If sufficiently bad, the Spirit may be repelled entirely (Rev 2, Eph 4). The group (which may be as small as a marriage dyad) may still consider itself an assembly of Christ, but the Spirit may be absent from it.
—
re: the language “have feet of clay”, I think this is too mild a description of cases of interpersonal violence. Perhaps “sin unrepentantly” would be more appropriate.
My own heretical beliefs related to this puzzle are based on observation, experience, and art.
Forgive my trespasses …
God is imperfect, incomplete, and evolving, as we are.
God is not even all good, nor all powerful.
Christ is a broken yet healing and regenerating being.
Another aspect is that these issues are fundamentally collective.
We own these challenges In community.
The self, sometimes, really is an illusion.
So yes I believe that the Holy Spirit was / is at L’Abri, and is truly transformative.
She is not as powerful or even benign as we had imagined.
She is evolving.
Sin and salvation sit side by side, in tension, but not in contradiction.
Her power is nonetheless substantial and her effects are real.
We are her confidants and partners, all of us, across days and centuries.
Father forgive us
For what we must do
You forgive us
We’ll forgive you
We’ll forgive each other
Till we both turn blue
Then we’ll whistle and go fishing
In heaven!
—John Prine
The thing that struck me was the implication that FS’ repentance from violence expressed toward his wife required a rethinking of his understanding of “headship”. It may be too harsh to infer that he thought God required interpersonal violence, but it might be that his doctrine of headship justified the violence as warranted in order to maintain biblical order in the home. The violence may be wrong, but it helps to avoid an even greater wrong.
I think that one can discern similar thinking in churches that elect to overlook (less public) pastoral transgressions for the sake of all the good they are doing through their powerful public gospel ministries. The good that is being accomplished is reckoned to outweigh the evil that comes with it, so that the net balance is positive.
What would have happened in that family if Edith had exposed him and loudly said NO?????. Abuse needs a silent victim.
Why do Christians do bad stuff? Because conversion doesn’t instantly deprogram your cultural conditioning. The Holy Spirit doesn’t magically erase your trauma or rewrite your life experience. God does not download a new set of coping skills into your brain like Neo learning kung fu. To adapt a metaphor, God takes away the heart of stone and gives a living heart, but it can take a lifetime or longer for the entire rest of the body to follow suit!
As an aside, I think a lot of Christians are unsettled by that because we want to avoid the uncomfortable self-knowledge that comes with real healing. We don’t want to accept the mess of being our actual human selves. We would rather wave the Holy Spirit like a magic wand and fix the really ugly stuff without having to look at it. Then we can go on our way confessing to being a bit mean or greedy or not reading our Bible enough here or there.
Yeah I think this is a real issue. And then people like Frank Schaeffer grow up in the cognitive dissonance, get furious once they figure out the hypocrisy, and run as far from it as they can while calling it out as loudly as possible. Abraham Piper came up in discussion of a prior post. I think he may be showing a similar reaction (not saying JP hit his wife, but hypocrisy takes many forms).
Why do we read the Psalms? David was a philanderer — so was Solomon. Paul had people killed, Peter was a weak-kneed liar. Matthew financially wounded people. Eve was a manipulative liar. Sarah allowed Abraham to sleep with a servant. It all sounds so dramatically tragic. Yet, these human beings are integral to our salvation story.
This isn’t fair. The presence of the Holy Spirit does not ensure human beings become like gods and without continual sin. I suppose Methodists and Buddhists believe that with enough prayer and effort, one can surmount the earthly chain of sin. But we all know that’s not so.
God is holy. We are not and cannot be until we are caught up into the new heaven and earth. Man’s sin is not to the detriment of the Gospel — it is foundational to the Gospel. Satan is most persistent and ever seeks to pull down anyone who fully comprehends the Truth. It is our error in elevating the man or woman who understands God’s Truth when the focus should be on the Truth itself. Men and women often fall. So do we all.
“Child … I am telling you your story, not hers. I tell no one any story but his own.” – ‘The Horse And His Boy’, 1954.
“I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.”
John 5:43 NIV
Jesus nails it.
R,
It seems like Guinness meant was, IF what Frank Jr. said about his dad abusing Edith were true, then the Schaefers would be horrible hypocrites. But *we* (theologically orthodox Christian believers) have benefited so much from the Schaefers’ ministry, that the alleged abuse can’t possibly be true.
And why is Frank Jr. considered such an unreliable narrator? Is it because he’s no longer one of *us* and his own beliefs are quirky?
“How could Schaeffer abuse his wife while functioning under the power of the Holy Spirit?”
Abuse is not compatible with the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
“The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control” (Galatians 5:22-23)
Physical and emotional abuse of your wife are not done under the power of the Holy Spirit.
Piper’s counsel that an abused spouse should endure verbal abuse and smacking was not uttered under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
“If we do not want to waste our lives, then we must understand the importance of having a humble, quiet heart and the power of the Holy Spirit.” (Francis Schaeffer)
“By your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” (Jesus)
“… unless one lives with a person 24/7, one does not know what goes on behind closed doors …”
As numerous TWW posts have indicated, the hypocrisy in the lives of Christian celebrities has reached Biblical proportion.
“I think I would rather have seen a world without Francis Schaeffer’s works if it prevented him from abusing Edith.” (Dee)
I suspect that, at the end of the day, Edith would have preferred that too.
Matthew 7 begins with:
“Judge not, that ye be not judged”
… but ends with:
“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
So, I don’t judge Mr. Schaeffer, but I ponder these things in my heart.
“Does being *orthodox* in one’s theology mean anything when it comes to sinful behavior?”
No man of God has ever been predestined by God to abuse his wife, no matter how you spin the jots and tittles. You simply won’t find that in Scripture.
Tom Rubino,
Silence from what I know.
Max,
Yep!
Muff Potter,
It goes even deeper. I try to figure out this for my own life. Why do I sin, sometimes right after asking God to forgive me for another sin?
There’s a huge difference between talent and gift. There are many Christian leaders who have influenced the church, but who operated by talent not by spiritual gift. TWW has reported on the moral failure and fall of many of them.
“For I do not understand my own actions [I am baffled, bewildered]. I do not practice or accomplish what I wish, but I do the very thing that I loathe [which my moral instinct condemns].” (Romans 7:15)
Frances,
What an excellent comment. My journey in the Lutheran church has opened my eyes to several issues I struggled with. I would like to see that side-by-side Psalm. I shall search for it after I write this comment.
Thank you for bringing up the communion wafer. That opened my eyes to the difference even there. I have so much to learn. Thank you.
The daughters were not running around, promiscuous and doing drugs. So there may be a certain bent, exaggeration, to Frank’s testimony to justify his own youthful indiscretions, that even today he is not owning.
Throwing a pot across the room is a far cry from beating up a wife (taking a beating à la John Piper).
OTOH, we know as outsiders that Schaeffers struggled with finances (at L’Abri, they would suspend all to fast & pray in desperation) AND that Os Guinness is/was heir to millions. Was Guinness walking in the Spirit? Not a good look on his part.
Max,
🙂
Those were different days back then.
Even in the secular realm, women had very little (if any) agency of their own.
Imagine what it must have been in the closed society of big-name evangelicalism.
AKA “I am inconsistent”.
You only find Total Consistency in artificial Perfect Ideologies.
RL people are a lot more messy.
P.S. I don’t know if the quote is from the Rabbi from Tarsus or someone else (like Aquila and Priscilla in Rome); allocation of authorship at the time was different than today, and the Epistles seem to default to the Rabbi from Tarsus.
Or Predestination?
Talent vs HS anointed gift. Apparently “Fake it til you make it,” doesn’t work with God’s Holy Spirit anointing God’s people with their spiritual gifts. Talent vs gift is one point of distinction in the church.
Another involves what you term as “moral failure”. I’m unsure about that term.
However, there are sins of Christians and then there is deal-breaker pure evil. 1 Corinthians 5 puts 6 categories of behavior in the realm of dealbreaker evil wherein if they call themselves a Christian but do these things, we as fellow Christians are not even to sit down for coffee with that person.
The rest of sinning on the part of so-called Christians may require prudence and boundaries (don’t buy their books, don’t follow their lead, don’t invite for dinner or waste your time) but nothing like the dealbreakers of 1 Corinthians 5.
Serious stuff.
People in relationship who don’t realize the gravity of the situation is why Dateline never lacks for actual case material: real situations and events that are mind bending with real neighborly people but someone always ends up dead.
And how many of the criminals were church-active or even church leaders? BTK, or pastors that rub out their wives? All the while they claim to be people of God. That’s the devil in angelic cosplay on full display, after the fact when the investigators lay it all out.
Churches may not have crime investigations but God says He anoints some among us with HS supernatural discernment.
Sometimes “orthodox in theology” becomes Cosmic-level Justification.
“For you don’t count the dead
When GOD’s on Your Side…”
— Bob Dylan
This holds for any Ideology (not just Theology) that reaches Cosmic inportance – op cit Chairman Mao’s Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution and the Khmer Rouge.
Just as long as it’s the original definition of “discernment”:
SEEING THE REALITY BEHIND & BENEATH THE SURFACE APPEARANCE.
And not the current Christianese definition:
SEEING DEMONS AND SMELLING OUT WITCHES UNDER EVERY BED (and in every Goodwill sweater).
RIGHTEOUSNESS of The One True Way?
“They have the Word of SATAN! WE HAVE THE! WORD!! OF!!! GAWD!!!!”
Especially in a church situation, with all the Pretending going on – the Happy Clappy Joy Joy and oh-so-Spritual public Facade that cannot be permitted to slip.
It’s not only chickens that peck any Defective to death in the barnyard.
“BEWARE THOU OF THE MUTANT.”
But the two are not mutually exclusive.
(Despite all the Black/White dichotomy of a lot of Christianese thinking.)
Someone can be both Talented AND Gifted.
What happens when Spirit and Flesh go synergistic and enhance each other?
Whenever total depravity is mentioned I always want to be sure it is defined as those such as Calvinists use the term. It does not mean people are as bad as they can be, or are behaving in evil manners. It simply means every part of us was harmed by the fall. Our bodies grow sick, old, and die. Our minds are not as sharp as they could have been. Our emotions were also affected. We don’t run as fast as we could have, paint as beautiful pictures as we could have, or love as well as we could have.
Or as the old green book ELCA setting two liturgy put it, I sin daily in thought word and deed, by what I have done, and by what I have left undone.
“Human beings are very unbalanced and prone to go off on tangents. In every area of life – with too great emphasis on one thing, leaving out another important thing altogether. None of us will ever be perfectly balanced in our spiritual lives, our intellectual lives, our emotional lives, our family lives, in relationships with other human beings, or in our business lives. BUT WE ARE CHALLENGED TO TRY, WITH THE HELP OF GOD. We are meant to live in the scriptures.” (Edith Schaeffer, ‘What is a Family?’)
I wonder what/who Edith was thinking about when she wrote that?
That would be explosive!
For every Holy Spirit work of God, there’s counterpart FAKE: there’s the fluffy kind and then the fiendish, but finally there’s the vile, vicious, and the utterly vulgar. In disguise, as a work of God. But NOT.
In colloquial perspective, consider the genious of Brian Wilson with the parasite Charles Manson, who claimed he was a rock n roll genious – NOT. Delusional.
Or another example: “The Woman Who Wasn’t There” about Tania Head the most famous 9/11 survivor (President of the 9/11 Survivors Network org) who is actually a confabulist who WAS NEVER IN NYC but was in Barcelona, Spain at that time. FAKE and famous.
The Holy Spirit gift of discernment is given to the church for good reason. God’s people are not to suffer fools.
Great simile!
If it weren’t so tragic in the American experience, it would also be funny.
But it is funny, and that’s the kicker.
When women are told they are unable to speak, as in so many of these churches, crimes against them and their children go undiscovered, sometimes until it’s too late.
Regarding Frank Schaeffer, I have read two of his books – “Why I am an Atheist Who Believes in God: How to give love, create beauty and find peace” and “Crazy for God: How I Grew Up as One of the Elect, Helped Found the Religious Right, and Lived to Take All (or Almost All) of It Back.”
He seemed to me to be brutally honest about his life. I think he has been truthful, but then, as this blog by Dee illustrates, we can never really know a person.
In 1994 Frank Schaeffer wrote, “Dancing Alone: The Quest for Orthodox Faith in the Age of False Religion.” I have not read the book, but here is a quote from Amazon:
“From the rear cover of this 327 page book: “‘Dancing Alone’ chronicles Frank Schaeffer’s spiritual journey from Protestantism to the Orthodox Church. Schaeffer’s pilgrimage to the Orthodox Church began in the 1970s as he observed spiritually bankrupt Protestant churches having little or no impact on the intensely secularized and pluralistic culture in which they operated. In ‘Dancing Alone’, Schaeffer shows how contemporary secularism grew out of Protestant pluralism and how the Protestant denominations and the Americanized modern Roman Catholic Church have departed from the Holy Tradition of the most ancient historical Christian church of all – the Orthodox Church.”
Good things can happen.
Madonna sang about it:
Look around, everywhere you turn is heartache
It’s everywhere that you go (look around)
You try everything you can to escape
The pain of life that you know (life that you know)
When all else fails and you long to be
Something better than you are today
I know a place where you can get away
It’s called a dance floor
And here’s what it’s for, so
— Madonna 1990 —
It’s been years since I read *Portofino.* I thought it was well-written, funny, and (ultimately) very dark. Obviously Frank Jr. came from a dysfunctional family, but then, so do many of us. Still, kind of creepy to realize it was way worse than we thought.
BTW I’ve been to L’Abri. The Schaeffers weren’t there at the time. Very weird place but the surroundings are spectacular.
Women (and 1 man), along Highway 20 in Oregon, over 3 decades, all disappeared.
He would have been stopped, none of this would have happened, and no one would have disappeared on Highway 20 in Oregon, if LE had listened and not dismissed the testimony of Marlene Gabrielsen. But she was young, indigenous, female, with no socioeconomic high rank.
Marlene Gabrielsen was the only known victim to have lived and is the first known victim. Her case was not prosecuted.
Many deaths followed, all by the same man.
Well, there’s no doubt about. America was founded on freedom of religion and we went crazy with the idea! Departed from the Holy describes our dilemma well.
Chuck,
Ha!
I can hop in my car and be at John Prine’s “Paradise in about an hour.
Maybe you should load a moving van and move to Kentucky!
The last verse:
“ When I die, let my ashes float down the Green River
Let my soul roll on up to the Rochester Dam
I’ll be halfway to Heaven with Paradise waitin’
Just five miles away from wherever I am.”
I want to hear from you since I do not have any pat answers. I really, really want to know why the Holy Spirit is sometimes effectual but not effectual in stopping supposed Christian orthodox theologians and leaders who know all about the lists from abusing their spouses.
I saw plenty of hypocrisy in my fundamentalist 7-12 grade schools, and in several campus ministries to make me very “wary/carefull” of any “leader”… I take the warnings in the NT about “leading others astray” and the high standards that are to beheld to leaders seriously.. consquently I do not want “Christain leadership”.
I have found TWW refreshing since their are others that are really bothered by the hyprocrisy (and worse) and are willing to stand up and “blow the whistle”.. Given the NT warns us about “wolves in sheeps clothing”, and many on TWW see wolves also, it all encourages me, and really does make me wonder like Dee….
I also wonder what “filled/guided by the Holly Spirit” really means… I have seen so much poo poo come from people that say it…
I think it’s tares among the wheat. God knows who is true wheat and all will be revealed at the end. The sheep and goats are also revealed at the end and lots of people are going to be VERY surprised. When Jesus said the first will be last and the last will be first He meant it. His Kingdom truly is upside down! It is sad and maddening churches often/mostly promote the wrong people and lack discernment. Mercy!
In my humble, but accurate, opinion … church leaders who live poo poo lives of abusing others are not filled/guided by the Holy Spirit at all. The Holy Spirit is always effectual, but only effectual for people in which the Holy Spirit dwells. What we have to admit to ourselves, I think, is that many “supposed Christian orthodox theologians and leaders” are not Christians at all.
Eons ago, I was once a member of an SBC church in which the pastor of 14 years, a great preacher, stood before the congregation and admitted that he didn’t know Jesus and that only recently had come to faith in Him! He had a solid working knowledge of Scripture, a tremendous expository preacher, active in ministering to others, and had led many to Christ … but, he had fooled us all! The church accepted his testimony, baptized him, and put him back to work doing what he had already been doing well … but this time as a believer through which the Holy Spirit worked!
None of us do.
“Do Any of Us Really Know Christian Leaders and Pastors?” Dee’s question.
The million dollar question.
Jesus, IOW, God Himself, had a very small inner circle and no mega institution. It serves us well to keep that in mind. Jesus knew 12. Whom do we really know?
However, there are some indicators given in Scripture.
1. The fruits of the Spirit vs the fruits of the flesh as evidenced by action. Galatians 5.
2. How someone treats the least of the least, the anawim, in their environs is also evidence. God severely judges Israel on this one. Isaiah 1.20 & Exodus 22, etc.
3. How church leaders or any Christian treats their family is evidence. 1 Timothy 3.
4. Do they charge $$$ for the GIFT of the Holy Spirit given to them to GIVE to the Body of Christ, the Church? Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4. Evidence.
Finally, combining #3 and #4, anyone who does not adequately provide for their family is worse than an unbeliever. Schaeffer failed on this one, according to Frank, and in testimonies from some who lived at L’Abri. Therefore, Os Guinness the multimillionaire in their midst is also certainly less than, as a “leader”.
We had a pastor that built his own house by hand. When our garage door went whackadoodle, he came over and fixed it without blinking an eye. Highly unusual.
Did anyone meet Elizabeth Elliot? We did and she was mean. Nasty. Turns out her dear man Jim was not who he presented himself to be either.
Kindness should not be that big a deal. For some folks in prominent places, kindness is an unreachable stretch. Sad.
There was a woman who worked with the Beth Moore people when they came to her town. Not pleasant. At all.
How the big people treat the little people is telling.
Oy vey. Uffdah. Oh good grief.
Evidence.
Someone who walks in the Spirit treats everyone they meet with the dignity they deserve. It’s what Jesus did. Tough love is still love. God is love. Filled with God’s Spirit is filled with love. In every situation and appropriately for everyone without exception. Love.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Make me an angel
That flies from Montgomery
Make me a poster
Of an old rodeo!
Chuck,
Well, at least Montgomery still exists, and is in good shape!
I should have said “where John Prine’s Paradise was”.
That song is fairly accurate about the area.
A massive area around Paradise was strip mined. Then, TVA bought up the town and built the Paradise fossil fuel dam (now natural gas dam) on the site of the original town, at the Green River. Paradise ceased to exist altogether in 1967. I can still find where it was, though I might get in some trouble – limited access.
I really, really want to know why the Holy Spirit is sometimes effectual but not effectual in stopping supposed Christian orthodox theologians and leaders who know all about the lists from abusing their spouses.
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
I’ll share my opinion, or random thoughts…… I may be way off but here goes.
You gave a good example of one of my opinions – maybe they were never really acquainted with the Holy Spirit to begin with.
My other opinion doesn’t pertain so much to physical spousal abuse as it does to spiritual abuse of the church (although the same thing could apply to a spouse, and could result in physical abuse) and a church leader’s ability to mislead, manipulate, and /or bully church members. I believe that a majority of Christians only have a vague familiarity (or none at all) with the Bible. And, from my limited experience, I believe most Christians have nothing in common with the bereans. They put their full trust in their leader. They never know when he misquotes or twists scripture, or uses a passage completely out of context. I believe that opens up easy opportunities for abuse.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Oops. Correction: Max gave the example I referred to.
Sorry, Max!
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
Note…. The first paragraph of my post was just a copy of the end of Dee’s OP
Bonnie Raitt does the best version of that song.
Be still my heart!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnFZlEYU7XY
That’s the thing that disturbed me most about my 70-year tenure as a Southern Baptist. They called themselves “People of the Word” … but very few bothered to read Scripture on a regular basis. And trying to get them to a prayer meeting was like pulling teeth! But if you yell “Potluck!”, they will knock you down trying to get to the fried chicken!
WTF works good too.
dee,
Baruch house publishing
A sweet exposition of Psalm 23 Coverdale
Agree.
Tares are among the wheat for now.
One day the sheep and goats will be separated.
In that say, the first shall be last; last shall be first.
Nowadays, churches promote and elevate the wrong people.
One day, we will all be surprised who will end up where in Eternity.
Add to this: in Eternity, poor Lazarus was in a good place but the rich man was in torment.
dee,
I find this very interesting. I don’t want to read too much into their silence, but if accusations like these were made against my parents and were false, I would fight to set the record straight, even if it were my brother making them. Surely they were asked about them when the book came out. I think Edith was still alive too, though may not have been functioning well cognitively speaking. Hmm….
Silence is golden?
Tom Rubino,
It is also interesting to read about Jr’s life. His parents shipped him off to boarding school. From what I have read, they attempted to clean up after him, rarely dealing with the issues. It is reported that Edith didn’t want to deal with the abuse and instead tried to cover it up by giving the appearance of a beautiful, well-managed home, etc.
I think the real issue is this. We do not know what goes on behind closed doors, and we want to assume our favorite theologians and pastors are people without blemish. They are not. They are just like us.
Frances,
Thank you.
Frances,
It was free for those who have Kindle Unlimited which I do!!
I am glad not to be alone in this.
Todd Wilhelm,
Thanks for the quote.
We’re supposed to be “a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish” (Ephesians 5:27).
Most churchgoers, in both pulpit and pew, could use a good washing and ironing. As we’ve found out in recent years, Christian celebrities are some of the most soiled of all. TWW continues to report on their dirty laundry, as idols fall one after another.
including wolves in shepherd’s clothing
Max,
The TGC neo-Cal boyz have issues with studying the Bible on an individual basis. You see, we need to study in groups led and directed by men who really understand God’s word!
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/berean-different/
Many of us grew up being exhorted to be “Berean Christians,” meaning we were encouraged to go back home and study our personal Bibles to see if our pastors’ teaching was accurate. While there is doubtless merit in this practice, it’s exceedingly unlikely that this is what the Bereans were doing.
Rather, as members of a Jewish synagogue, it’s more likely that they were assembling together regularly over the course of Paul and Silas’s visit for a collective discussion of the accuracy of their teaching. In such a setting, there would’ve been a scribe consulting and reading aloud passages from specific scrolls in the synagogue’s collection as they were mentioned in the discussion.
Reading and interpretation were more communal than private acts.
Our primary encounter with the text has moved from the context of the communal Bible reading in the assembly of the church to the private Bible reading of the individual Christian. Reading has shifted from an activity chiefly engaging the ears to one chiefly engaging the eyes.
With such shifts, there has often been a privatization of our understanding of the sense of the text: we can forget that the Scriptures were largely addressed not to detached individuals but to communities of reading—communities where interpretation was a collective activity overseen by skilled readers and guided by traditions of scriptural reflection.
Max,
The irony is that the NT, and many passage in the OT, promise to make us white as snow if we just confess… the problem is that to many Christians, especially leaders, can not seem to publicly confess and accountable…
The “cover -up” is usually worse than the original offense/sin….
Good Lord! The New Calvinists are messing up everything that is pure & holy!
Folks, ignore The Gospel Coalition on this … it’s just another maneuver by the dudebros to get you under their reformed indoctrination rather than being led and taught by the Holy Spirit. Read your Bible, pray, and seek God yourself! You’re going to have to if you are going to steer clear of aberrant belief and practice like the NeoCals are serving up. And while you are at it, read the Gospels, read the words in red. You sure the heck won’t hear the NeoCals quoting Jesus … they prefer to distort the words of Paul to support their theology. Be a Berean Christian, not a Piperite!
Too much pride. Scripture says that pride cometh before a fall … and they are falling right and left.
There’s another, less Spiritual(TM) reason in-play:
“Deliver Me, Lord, from the Vengeance
Of Saints Who Have Never Been Caught.”
“The more I see the leaders fail in spectacular ways: adultery, pedophilia, domestic violence, child abuse, embezzlement, etc. I wonder what went wrong?” (Dee)
Well, as you all know, you won’t find ole Max agreeing much with what John Calvin had to say … but I agree with his words on this:
“When God wants to judge a nation, He gives them wicked rulers.”
IMO, this also goes for the institutional church, which could benefit from a touch of God’s judgment. Wicked pulpits are often a reflection of wickedness in the pews.
“If My people, who are called by My name, will humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land” (2 Chronicles 7:14)
In the meantime, we get the leaders we want and push Jesus out of the church.
Even if all this was true about Francis Schaeffer, I suspect he would still get standing ovations when he showed up to speak somewhere. We’ve got our priorities messed up, living life upside down, calling evil good and good evil.
Study alone (without a Party Commissar) and you might drift away from The Party Line.
“Thinking leads to Heresy.
Heresy must be Dealt With.
Blessed is the mind too small for Doubt.”
— Warhammer 40K
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Yep.
Don’t think for yourself. You’re too dumb. We must think for you!!!
I really appreciate your articles. I come from a Christian family. There were 7kids. 5noys , 2 girls. My 5 brothers all spent years in their younger days with drinking and drugs. One or two still do , but not quite as much. My sister and I didn’t. My sister and I don’t have any stories of abuse/or seeing abuse. My dad passed away 18 years ago and the longer he is gone, the more stories I’m hearing from my brothers about how abusive he was. Some of the stories have me being there witnessing the abuse and I would swear it never happened. My mom was supposedly there, she swears it never happened. There would have been physical consequences, bruising and such and I was there, with my brother who remembers these things and I would have seen it, but I’m certain it didn’t happen. There are a few stories they have when they were young teens and drunk/high at home and I was away at college. My dad could have been too rough then. All this to say that memories are not fixed, they are plastic. Drinking and doing drugs make them more plastic still. I would be careful what too believe unless verified by other stories. Also, we are all imperfect people and sometimes brilliant theologians don’t have as easy of a time translating it to heart knowledge and being submitted to the will of God. That is what makes the difference in our lives. Also, people with a wider public ministry I believe are more under attack by evil using there own weaknesses against them.
Believe me, you better personally test your NeoCal pastor’s teaching for accuracy! They are famous for making the Bible say what they want it to say to line up with their theology. TGC’s teaching about how the Bereans studied Scripture is not in the Bible. So, it is highly likely that they want you to insert them as a filter for interpretation of Scripture. It’s the stuff that cults are made of.
True.
Talking to us all here:
So let’s not elevate “leaders”. Don’t judge, don’t assume, don’t pay for GIFTS of the HS (just be hospitable like the NT church was), and have the expectation that our own gifts be acknowledged and respected, too.
Is anyone paying you for your gift? No? Then don’t pay others for their GIFTS to the Church from the HS. And connect with others who RESPECT your gift to the Church from the Holy Spirit. Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4.
“The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde” by Robert Louis Stevenson was not written in a vacuum.
According to the BBC doc on the author’s life (“The Adventures of Robert Louis Stevenson”), writing the dark tale almost drove writer RLS insane.
Makes sense. These strange characters that flip good to evil and back in a nanosecond cause great confusion and harm.
Perhaps hiding evil is far more harmful than straight up in your face evil. Judas Iscariot was a hidden evil type of guy and he sold out Jesus our Saviour. Just sayin.
I disagree.
These days?
Violence against women is not tolerated in any circles.
I doubt very seriously that Schaeffer would have gotten a pass (present day) on it because ‘He’s such a great man of God’
Great men of God don’t beat on women. Pretenders yes, the real McCoy? NO.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
It is exactly what Ruth Magnusson Davis demonstrate in her book the story of the Matthew Bible tome 2. The Puritans (calvinist) claimed to be God’s mouth.(quite at the beginning of the book)
Cannot be more precise being still hospitalised, but hoping to be home soon.
1 Peter 3:7 NASB
“You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in a respectful way, as with someone who does not have your advantages, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.”
Maybe the reason L’Abri couldn’t support Schaeffer’s family was because his prayers weren’t answered after he didn’t respect his wife.
Apparently Elizabeth could be pretty salty, you have to wonder if she ever abused Francis?
dee,
I totally agree agree with you. I think our need to have these folks be without blemish exposes the ancient need of God’s people to have an earthly king rather than be satisfied with having the Lamb without defect spiritually ruling over us.
At the same time, leaders are held to a higher standard than us scripturally and it is disheartening to see so many of them commit heinous acts with no apparent stirring of conscience. Human beings are capable of deep levels of self deception, but I can’t fathom how so many of these leaders do the things they do and continue to let themselves minister in the name of Jesus. The Holy Spirit would not let me rest if I were in that situation.
So am I just being naïve about myself or may the Spirit not dwell in as many of these leaders as we think?
Are we giving him a pass if we still buy his books?
In abuse situations there’s only the abuser(s), the victim(s), and god/Jesus/holy spirit.
God can ensure that wedding party in Cana had enough wobbly pops so everyone had a good time but is silent when abuse is committed by those “in his service”.
Doesn’t make sense.
Don’t know Francis Schaefer or read any of his books but it appears he had a good payday.
Praise be…
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Frances,
I am so sorry, Frances. I hope you are home soon.
With numerous expressions of Christian faith, it takes a healthy dose of arrogance to claim to be “God’s mouth.” Lord knows that there’s a haughty spirit running wild in New Calvinism! I suppose that a smug pride (we alone hold truth) has always been present in Calvinist ranks and may explain why 90+% of Christendom have rejected the tenets of reformed theology over the past 500 years; they just don’t want to be around such an arrogant bunch.
Ava – that was good, about possibly his prayers weren’t answered for money because of how he was treating his wife. I read all the comments on this thread because I too was a big fan of Schaffer, both husband and wife. I still have some of their books. How can someone have the Holy Spirit and do this stuff? Suppressing the Holy Spirit I suppose. Ignoring his nudging, his guidance, his conviction. When someone gives advice, we don’t have to take it, but that advice was given.
“2 things I request of You (deprive me not before I die): remove falsehood and lies far from me, give me neither poverty nor riches, feed me with the food allotted to me. Lest I be full and deny You and say ‘Who is the Lord?’ Or lest I be poor and steal, and profane the name of my God.” Proverbs 30:7-9
Fame is not all it is cracked up to be.
Denise Allen,
I’ve learned not to trust anyone else to tell me how to live. Pride and arrogance abound in Christianity, especially the leadership. I’ve learned that it’s God we need to hear from, not others.
Believers would do well to seek God first … to search for Him with all our heart … to rely on the Kingdom of God for Truth, not the religious kingdoms of mere men.
“Seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you” (Matthew 6:33)
If we want Truth added to us, we need to hear God by positioning our lives to hear His voice.
I am several decades old, have read a fair amount, and have worked several decades in setting where I noted that even the best people are capable of committing the worst of sins.
People are created in the image of God and are therefore capable of great acts of caring, love, compassion, tenderness etc., and they are capable of making good moral choices.
But I never met any person, including myself, whom I didn’t think in the right circumstances was capable of great evil. Humans really are sinful. The reason some of us behave better than others may often be attributed to blessings bestowed upon us by God.
Whether it’s Schaeffer beating his wife, MLK’s awful infidelity and sexual behavior, Martin Luther’s antisemitism, Ravi Z’s behavior, none of it should surprise us.
As Christians, these stories really should sober us.
We are once again reminded that all humans, even our heroes, are sinful and in need of salvation.
In abusive families, often one person is chosen as the victim. The abuser tries to hide the abuse, and to discredit and isolate the victim.
This occurred in my (extended) family. One girl was battered and abused by her mother, always when the two were alone. The mother called the victim a liar all the time. The girl became angry, her grades fell, she started skipping school and eventually dropped out. She ran away. She chose terrible friends. Her mental health suffered, so we (yes, including me) were able to dismiss her as crazy.
The victim’s father and siblings most certainly did say, for years, that there was no abuse in the family, just one wild kid. It took decades for some truth to come out, when the sibs were adults and started to compare their experiences.
Silence and denial do not prove the absence of abuse.
The even more uncomfortable part: it is hard to prove that abuse happened—or did not.
Oracle at Delphi,
Very well said.
Best life advice there is.
Here’s some more from The Book of Proverbs chap. 3:
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. 7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. 8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones. 9 Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: 10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine. 11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:
Perhaps Frank just exaggerated all the bad things growing up with his parents, without ever coming to faith in Christ himself? And in the crazy atheist world he now lives in, he is striking out against them?
As Dee notes, we don’t know what went on behind closed doors. On the other hand, Friend reminds us in regard to siblings not commenting that “Silence and denial do not prove the absence of abuse.”
So here we are, some believing and some doubting … some who are Schaeffer book fans, others who have never read any of their books. The alleged abuser and the alleged victim are now in eternity, with only Frank painting a picture that we may or may not want to look at. So, unless other siblings come forward, we will never know the truth.
I’ve no clue about the Schaeffer’s. Maybe there was abuse maybe not. I do know our child with mental illness often “remembers” all sorts of things that never happened. In our case not allegations of abuse, but also not possible. Places we never lived, trips never taken, incidents that our kid was simply not where the incident happened. Might see a movie or something in the paper and think it happened to us. NOT!
I also have a friend who had a child who was molested at school as a child. As a young woman she was continually reporting she had been raped, molested, followed, threatened, or felt specific men at church were flirting with her, or that their wives were jealous of her great beauty. In fact as recently as two years ago she just knew she had a peeping tom. Problem was that her yard had been snowed on two days ago, no wind and clear skies since, and there were absolutely no tracks in the powdery snow. Her shrinks think it is a form of ptsd, where she often relives the emotions she felt the time she really was molested, and build the rest up in her mind. Not intentionally, and to her it feels very real. But it isn’t, and she has near ruined more than a few lives with her false accusations. And yes they are false, and usually the accused can prove they may not have even been in the state when she believes she was abused by them. So sad.
So judgment reserved on Frank Schaeffer.
Steph,
Hello everyone! I think I’ve only left one (maybe two) comments since I discovered this site several years ago, but I read regularly. I wanted to address Steph’s comment because I recognize her disbelief about her brother’s stories. I’ll keep my post as short as possible: I’m the oldest, my sister is one and a half years younger and my brother is four years younger. My mother died in 2016, my dad died by suicide five years ago. I was my dad’s caretaker for nearly three years. My parents had an unhappy marriage, and we children had a home life that was always under stress. My sister was part of a manipulative triangle between her and my parents. As adults, my sister would occasionally talk about dad’s abuse of mom. Because my sister is manipulative and likes drama (good or bad), I thought she was making up these stories, especially since if I asked my mom about it she would deny these things had happened. Then, after my dad died, my brother and I started talking regularly for hours at a time. About a year ago he casually mentioned something about dad hitting mom. I was shocked to say the least. I started asking questions about different episodes and he became puzzled and said, “but you were there.” I said, “I was?!!” Now he became concerned and asked, “don’t you remember when (fill in the blank)?” And I said, “I don’t remember any of this.” My brother is much more reliable than my sister, and I now have a problem. My sister was telling the truth, and I have no memory of these things. It has been proven that people will black out memories that are painful or traumatic. To a child, witnessing a parent(s) violent behavior is certainly considered a painful or traumatic event. Something in us shuts down for protection. I offer this as a suggestion to Steph that maybe some things did happen, and you don’t remember for a good reason. Also, I have not read the Schaefer son’s book nor do I know details; however, I want to suggest that it’s possible his acting out with drugs, etc., is in response to witnessing episodes of violence.
Neither are famous families.
Families in general, any family for that matter, are ALWAYS at least a little disheveled or frayed around the edges at some point.
The question would be: is son Frank a bit histrionic in his retelling? His parents sound like they were a bit emotional at times themselves; the financial issues with their mission didn’t help. But is Frank carrying on the family trait of overreacting? For effect, in Frank’s case? To sell books?
Edith never showed up at the ER with bruises. Not to minimize Sir Francis’ temper tantrums, but did he simply have anger issues or what? Was there criminality or fiesty arguments throwing something across the room?
Watch or read, “The Woman Who Was Not There” to get a picture of a 9/11 confabulist.
“Misha: A Memoire of the Holocaust Years” is a literary hoax that was made into the film, “Surviving With the Wolves.” Misha Defonseca is a Holocaust confabulist.
Francis Schaeffer was not a good provider. That we know.
Frank also struggled with supporting his family. Hopefully that all has changed for him, or hope he has surpassed his dad in that regard.
Elevate no one save Jesus would seem to be healthy NT church culture. Then there’s no letdown.
All are flawed. However, not all are criminals – only some here and there. But all are flawed.
I’m perfectly happy with this result. We don’t need the Wars of Religion that pretty much tore up Europe for a couple hundred years.
My brother was recently telling me some things he remembered from childhood, which I did not remember, and they were significant enough that I should have remembered them. However, I remembered other things which were similar to what he was telling me about. I’m thinking we suppress painful memories as much as possible.
Worth repeating!
“There is none righteous, no, not one.” (Romans 3:10)
Your questions reminded me of this after I had some time to think about them. He’s pretty up front he’s got books to sell.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/08/dear-mark-driscoll-please-stay-otherwise-we-wont-have-a-way-to-get-people-to-read-our-blogs/
When Nelson Mandela died what did Frank do? Sing his praises … and also write about what was in his new novel.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2013/12/mandela-the-destroyer-of-calvanism-and-bad-theology/
I think Frank does have a bellicose streak, even a fairly big one. It’s been years since I read Crazy for GOd but he seemed to claim that he browbeat his own dad into being more militantly opposed to abortion and that in the 1960s Francis regarded it as a “Catholic issue” as many a Presbyterian would’ve at that point. I can’t chapter and verse that but perhaps others who are more steeped in his work may remember it or confirm whether I’m misremembering Frank Schaeffer’s claim on that point.
But I think Ava’s questions are on point regarding Frank.
dee,
Dee, a loved one of mine struggled for years with being abusive. Much of it stemmed from his untreated ptsd from early childhood. The majority of time he was a loving individual but when a trigger hit he switched instantly into unthinking rage. It was almost like two different personalities. I know for a fact he loves God and God loves him but the damage done to him has taken years to be healed. Yes, abuse and anger like that is sin. But he never quit clinging to Jesus and Jesus has continued to help and heal. It wasn’t instantaneous. I heard a pastor say once that most people with this person’s background were dead or in jail. Loving accountability and a desire to change has worked wonders tho.
Nancy Johnson,
“Eve was a manipulative liar.
…The presence of the Holy Spirit does not ensure human beings become like gods and without continual sin…”
++++++++++++++++++
there’s scant information about Eve for such a vicious characterization.
the only reason for such a conjecture is that it makes other theological equations work, like algebra, which are also conjecture and equally unfair to women.
.
.
i wholly disagree that any human being is continually sinning. it’s such a miserable take on the value of life, on life as a precious thing.
sort of makes a mockery of the “pro-life” slogan.
it turns all that is good and right and beautiful into something ugly riddled with ‘sin’, while leveling out crimes against humanity and the laws of all that is good, right and true to be just as generic a sin.
anonymous for this,
Thank you for your comment. It is so difficult to figure these things out. PTSD is one possibility for understanding terrible anger in many people.
I remember reading that as well.
I know you are correct!
Sadly, many women, especially women of a different generation, did not go to the ER. They were taught to endure. The same happens for children of abuse. They are often not brought to the ER until it is too late. We live in a different generation in which people of all ages who are abused can find support and understanding. It is no longer embarrassing to seek help.
Great comment. Let me give a different perspective on this one. Often, abuse is between two individuals. Many times, it is not witnessed. Many of the stories written are like this. When people begin to speak publicly about their abuse, especially if it involves a celebrity pastor or theologian, it is quick to be refuted by the faithful.
However, that does not mean it didn’t happen. The abused person is often subject to heaps of scorn for finally disclosing what happened. There is often a conspiracy of silence that harms the abused.
For example, look at what happened to Lori Anne Thomson when she came out with her story about Ravi Z.
I still shiver to think of the things she was accused of, the least of which was “going after money.”
Many people decided to “not make judgments” about the painful situation of the Thompsons.
Later, it was discovered he was a sick predator.
Having done this for years, I have some “tells” that I look for when speaking or observing claimed abuse. I wrote about this because I think Frank is telling the truth on this matter. This does not mean I think he is an outstanding individual. I believe what he said about the abuse.
Piper taught that wives should “endure” abuse “for a season.”
For many, it’s a long, long season … some having to endure to the end.
There is absolutely zero evidence in Scripture to support this.
dee,
“They were taught to endure.”
+++++++++++++++
in my experience & observation, christianity (which is what people make of it) teaches people that it is godly to have no relationship boundaries (except certain sexual ones).
of course (as i see it), most people (even christians) do have boundaries that are subconsciously sorted out by subconscious drives (survival, empathy…).
but given the dire need in christianity for ‘biblical’ and hard-&- fast black-&-white rules and absolute statements where there is no ambiguity, it’s not possible for such abstract things to make it into the curriculum.
it means that at any time a christian powerbroker can decide to focus on a boundary that people operate by and convey that christians shouldn’t be doing that. implying that it is ungodly and sinful to maintain such a boundary.
(and christian influencers bring these things up when their realm of power and influence is waning, when they aren’t getting the attention they need, and as a business decision to make a name for themselves and build their brand)
i see it all the time. i could easily find these things happening every day.
i swear….. christianity / christian culture (they are one in the same) is a minefield for what is sick & twisted, paranoid, neurotic, life-destroying for those at ground zero, and for the benefit of those above.
I flatly reject this too.
Much of Christianity is based on a kind of ‘perfectionism’ that you (generic you) cannot achieve. In other words, you can never be ‘good enough’ for God.
In my opinion, it’s one of the cruelest lies ever hatched by the Devil.
As a father and a grandfather, I am totally happy when my progeny do the best they can with what they’ve got.
‘Perfection’ not required.
Muff Potter,
“Much of Christianity is based on a kind of ‘perfectionism’ that you (generic you) cannot achieve. In other words, you can never be ‘good enough’ for God.”
++++++++++++++++++
but it’s a very savvy commercial & ideological market for opportunists to exploit.
it’s how The Gospel Coalition keeps going, and how publishing contracts are doled out.
ridiculous. sick, really.
…i have a dream of corralling christian books and pressing them up against the stickyfied sheer brick walls of bubblegum alleys in various towns.
sort of like heads on spikes.
i think i’d make my point.
elastigirl,
i mean, let’s face it. human beings have a need to punch down.
(for self-validation, for accruing power beyond the power of being human with agency for personal responsibility)
christian culture is the vehicle for just that.
influencers punch down, showing those beneath them how to punch down.
but really, they just think they are punching down. they are punching across.
they could be joining hands across.
but there’s no fun or money or power (political & personal) in that.
Imagine your child coming home from Kindergarten with a water-color of flowers she did just for you. Would you tell her it’s ‘not good enough’ because it doesn’t look like a Monet?
I rest my case.
You do go on to qualify this broad statement, but I’ll still take issue with it. 🙂 Human relationships are about more than power. Most people(TM) are just trying to get by, give and receive love, and adhere to the better parts of their beliefs and culture. Adult life forces some compromises, but also gives us opportunities to protect others and even try to improve things. I do believe in the human spirit.
True. Thank God that there are experts that unpack domestic situations, clinically, today.
Obviously Sir Francis had anger issues, financial issues, and patriarchy stances.
Son Frank admittedly also had his issues.
“Leave to Beaver” Christianity, on the home front, was actually like “All in the Family”.
Too bad Son Frank didn’t come up with a sitcom idea for both enlightenment and entertainment.
Sometimes that’s how cultural phenomenon gets sorted out. Without putting anyone personally under the scrutiny of the general public eye.
One thing is also true about Madame Edith. Her books didn’t tell the whole truth or render a very accurate realistic picture. Maybe a bit fake, sad to say. Well-intentioned but a tad fake.
Friend,
If I can jump in here. I think elastigirl was only pointing out what the worst in us as humans seeks to do. You’ve pointed out what the best in us tries to accomplish, and when we refuse to do the worst, and choose to do the best, we are magnificent.
Muff Potter,
Of course, thank you.
When someone says they struggle daily with sin, I take it seriously. Some folks do have an awful time preventing themselves from doing destructive things. Praise to all who strive and prevail through prayer and other means.
However, some churches have gone out of their way to convince us that we are all absolutely horrible, even when we are at our best. Many Christians have a lifelong guilt trip over tiny things—fleeting thoughts, anger that we never act upon, holding hands with no intention of marrying. A lot of Christians carry lifelong guilt and deep shame for impulsive things they did as youngsters. Condemning oneself for such things can immobilize a good person.
Jesus taught forgiveness, as well as perspective.
Friend,
i don’t disagree. my view is that most people are simply trying to do their best.
at the same time, i observe that human nature left to its lesser angels (so to speak) needs an ‘other’ to blame, or see as less-than to dump frustrations on. although it’s never articulated that way (not even to oneself).
i observe that, generally speaking, christian culture caters to this (and other aspects of base human nature). the irony floors me.
a short list of examples of ‘others’:
-those with different political views
-those of different religious convictions
-those with minority sexuality
-those of different economic class (or perceived to be so)
-those of other races
-those from other countries who use physical space differently, talk –
differently, drive differently
-those who dress differently
-or merely those who drive faster or slower than oneself
it’s all really dumb.
it is base human nature. we all mature and develop beyond this, some more than others.
yet my observation is that we all slip into this mindset now and then, even momentarily, despite our better angels.
some make a career out of it. or build a business out of it. or a political platform.
and sometimes people are tricked into thinking it’s ‘righteousness’.
dangerous.
elastigirl,
I see what you see too.
When I was a tiny child, my grandmother said that Jesus loves me. As a teen I dug into the shrill, cultish form of Christianity that feels pretty good in a bad way. Then, when I was in college, a friend told me that Jesus doesn’t hate me. It took time to get back to Grandma’s original message, but that’s where my faith lodges now. Like many people on TWW, I find it easier to love than to hate.
“I really, really want to know why the Holy Spirit is sometimes effectual but not effectual in stopping supposed Christian orthodox theologians and leaders who know all about the lists from abusing their spouses.”–dee
++++++++++++++++++++
…coming in for a landing from tangential-land:
i think Holy Spirit is ever ready, willing, and able to help us as we endeavor to do right, good, work hard, be artistic, communicate, be responsible, make decisions, be courageous, & the like.
I think Holy Spirit accommodates us if we want ignore this awesome resource (the HS) in making our own dumb & cruel choices.
Reasons I think christians do egregious things despite the Holy Spirit:
-their theology puts a very low priority on loving their neighbor as themself.
-their theology redefines love as cruelty.
-they value principle over people
-they’re preoccupied with being biblical, which is a lot of work. but it makes them feel like they’re doing something productive.
loving one’s neighbor as oneself isn’t something you work towards with a stack of new books to read.
doesn’t end up in a project plan.
it’s not sophisticated. (it has nothing to do with lofty words like disembodied, normative, performative, & other pretentious things)
you don’t get a degree in it. you don’t make a career out of it. there’s no money in it. no business to build out of it.
.
.
i’m rambling too much. (cuz i’m procrastinating on what i need to be doing tonight.
Yeah, a good few of those books carve out one exception after another.
Until God hates all the same people you Hate (“WITH SUCH A PERFECT HATRED”)…
Last night I think I did something more productive than all these More Biblical Than Thou types:
I finished up some ship sheets for Full Thrust (space combat miniatures game).
Check out all those surviving Massachusetts Puritan journals from 3-400 years ago.
All Navel-Gazing Sin-Sniffing, All the Time.
There’s a long-ago Beetle Bailey Sunday strip that says it all.
Panel by panel:
The General yells at the Colonel.
The Colonel yells at the Major.
The Major yells at the Captain.
The Captain yells at the Lieutenant.
The Lieutenant yells as Sergeant Snorkel.
Sergeant Snorkel yells at Private Bailey.
Private Bailey kicks the barracks’ dog.
And God Hates YOUR Guts for it.
Been there.
And some of the damage is permanent.
Smart and Successful abusers KNOW to do their thing ONLY when there are NO witnesses around.
Nobody who the abuser hasn’t pre-Groomed as allies who accept HIS story and HIS story only.
It’s right out of The Bad Seed (the original stage play).
“Go ahead and squeal, Tattle-Tale!
Nobody will EVER believe YOU!
Because you’re just The Crazy Kid and I’m the Sweet Little Angel!”
Headless Unicorn Guy,
“…influencers punch down, showing those beneath them how to punch down.”
“There’s a long-ago Beetle Bailey Sunday strip that says it all.”
+++++++++++++++++++
yes…. i don’t have much recall of Beetle Bailey, but i feel like i’ve seen a norman rockwell depicting this very thing.
in fact, i was searching for it in the process of writing that comment. i’ve looked many times but can never find it.
it’s exactly what I was thinking.
to reiterate my point, it’s cruddy default mode for humans.
it blows my mind that christian culture (christianity) is the vehicle for nurturing this and other cruddy base human nature things.
while purporting to be the elite system, looking down its superior nose at absolutely everyone else (called the world)
[speaking in the passive voice because i don’t know who exactly to address. ‘christian’ is just a huge monster, created fed & watered by too many people to keep track of.]
.
.
if christians are going to castigate people by referring to them as ‘the world’, they clearly mean every single human being who isn’t in their elite religious club.
and i’m floored by how society is crawling with a gazillion christians who are so self-unaware with next to nil critical thinking that they are clueless on how repulsively stuck up they are.
yeah, not holding back at the moment. i am so done.
(but not with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit*)
(*note for christian neanderthals who love to punch down on those they label as “deconstructing” to get their primitive pleasure fix)
The most helpful teaching I have heard in the past twenty years is that all of the sifting and sorting between the wheat and the tares, between the sheep and the goats, refers not to lines that divide groups of people, but rather the disordered impulses of my own heart.
I am not one bit surprised that Francis Schaeffer was capable both of some of the most profound and divinizing writing to come out of the Reformed camp since Abraham Kuyper, and of smacking Edith in the chops. I would not even be surprised if they had occurred within minutes of each other.
We desperately need a theology of violence. Not a jurisprudence of violence; that is very well developed with the State taking center stage. What does it mean for the LORD to be a man of war?
Other than that, we kind of need to get over ourselves.
Agree.
IOW, codes and categories culture … which is what a lot of “Christianity” is.
Instead of relationships as in Love God all in, and love your neighbor as yourself.
Ava Aaronson,
“IOW, codes and categories culture … which is what a lot of “Christianity” is.
Instead of relationships as in Love God all in, and love your neighbor as yourself.”
+++++++++++++++
seems to me love is simply utterly resistant to glamour, business enterprise, career, systematization (what a word), religion itself (which is inherently a system, hierarchy, & business)…
none of these things can possible stick when it comes to love.
good.
Jesus bears witness to no glamour, no business enterprise, no spiritual GIFT as a paid career, no systematization, no religion business or system or hierarchy. Jesus is love lived.
Ava Aaronson,
i roll my eyes when christian institutions go on about love.
seems to me. seems to me it is simply not possible for this purest of all elements not to be polluted in the process — co-opted, redefined, & mangled all to benefit the institution.
cynical? i call it realistic.
elastigirl,
feeling clear-minded this morning, so i’ll just keep going.
(well, really, i’m procrastinating more)
as soon as ‘love’ is in the program, it very quickly unravels all other theological systems that are the building blocks of the institution that enable it to function (ie-control, power, revenue).
and which are self-gratifying to the powerbrokers (on a macro and micro level).
therefore it has to be redefined.
Mule Chewing Briars,
“We desperately need a theology of violence. Not a jurisprudence of violence; that is very well developed with the State taking center stage. What does it mean for the LORD to be a man of war?”
+++++++++++++
seems to me any effort to systematize X by culling all variables from the bible will end up either altering one or more of the variables, or will make it work without the key variable ‘love’.
it will be another weird jello salad (as mentioned in the gwen shamblin discussion)
it’s hard for me to see that yet another theology will move things forward — it’ll just keep us all busy. (and will be new materials for opportunists to make things out of to sell)
treating people the way ‘i’ want to be treated seems productive, though.
it’s not fancy, not sophisticated. won’t yield any long-winded treatise. no convention (to keep people busy in the planning and attending, buying and selling)
Mule Chewing Briars,
…but maybe you’re involved in foreign policy…
compared to my living room thought experiment…
i dunno — i think theology and politics are a dangerous mix
I thought of commenting on Dee’s post (and some of the articles Dee linked to), replying to many of the comments, and copying-and-pasting commenter’s names to acknowledge them. Instead, I’m writing only this comment….to acknowledge and say a thank you to everyone at once. 🙂
(I’m behind in pretty much everything right now, and if I try and put everything in one comment, not only would my comment be way to long and take forever to write, it’d probably get hung up in Customs. 🙂 )
Any man who beats on a woman is both a coward and a piece of poo.
I have no use for Schaeffer or his writings.
A divine character does not beat their wife. Something spiritual was going on, but it wasn’t holy.
“Blessing and curses come out of the same mouth — surely, my brothers, this is the sort of thing that never ought to happen! Have you ever known a spring to give sweet and bitter water simultaneously? Have you ever seen a fig-tree with a crop of olives, or seen figs growing on a vine? It is just as impossible for a spring to give fresh and salt water at the same time.” (James 3:9-12)
The “Christian” book list is getting shorter by the day.
At one point, we were down to one. The Bible. For one year. Interesting what eventually came back and what never.
I saw Edith Schaeffer on
a TV program a number of years back. (It was after Francis Schaeffer had passed away.) She stated that before she married Francis, she did not know he had a temper. She said she would have to bring him a tea tray–“and none too soon!”– after a disagreement. It struck me that it was a way she had to placate him, and way back then, the whole idea that she had to do this offended me greatly.
“For Holy State, we have lived to learn,
Endeth in Holy War.”
— Rudyard Kipling, “MacDonough’s Song”