@ESA’s Euclid mission released its first science images, including views of a large cluster of thousands of distant galaxies, close-ups of two nearby galaxies, a gravitationally bound group of stars called a globular cluster, and a nebula, or a cloud of gas and dust in space where stars form.-ESA Euclid
“Susan B. Anthony. “I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do,” she once said, “because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. -Barbara Brown Taylor.
This is what started the discussion.
Interviewer: “I’m not walking away from Jesus, but I’m done with the church” (context is Mark Driscoll harm)
John Piper: “IF YOU DO THAT, YOU’RE WALKING AWAY FROM JESUS!” pic.twitter.com/STfNgQhahS
— Brian Morris (@brmorris) October 14, 2023
This hit a nerve on social media, as well as it should. Has anyone taught John Piper how to nuance anything? The Gospel Coalition needed to back up their man, and Trevin Wax had the honor of writing Prone to Dechurch, Lord I Feel It. Piper needs lots of people to defend his thoughts.Wax starts by telling us what John Piper meant. I’m not sure anyone knows what Piper means when he goes off on a subject. However, Wax said:
While not ruling out the choice of a believer to walk away from a particular congregation, Piper stressed the impossibility of thinking someone could follow Christ and leave the church altogether. “To walk away from the church is to walk away from Christ,” he said.
Wax wags his finger at those who have said similar things about walking away from the church. He claims they are individualistic and that such a thing was not present a mere decade ago.
That this statement was controversial says something about our contemporary, individualistic context.
Wax has a problem, and he attempts to deal with it quickly but acknowledges the scandals in the church. Sadly, he does not mention that The Gospel Coalition backed up CJ Mahaney until they could not do it anymore. Instead of letting everyone know that they had “changed their minds,” they just buried it. Mohler is the only one who said he made a mistake. Wax appears to suggest that these scandals were “out there.”
It’s true we’ve experienced a season of rot and corruption being exposed in a number of high-profile churches, so it’s not surprising that some might conclude a personal relationship with Jesus is what matters most, to the exclusion of organizational Christianity in all its messiness.
He goes back to Hebrews to claim:
it’s a contradiction to claim to follow Jesus and yet disregard the apostolic instruction. An unchurched Christian, as John Stott pointed out, is “a grotesque anomaly. . . . The New Testament knows nothing of such a person.”
As I read through the New Testament, I saw minimal mention of pastors who abuse children, pastors who sexually abuse church members, etc. Are there any examples of a child being sexually molested in the church and the response of the apostles to that specific?
Wax does not address the long-term consequences for those who have been abused and for those who were collateral damage: they found out about the abuse and were upset. He does not address what happens when a group of Christians confront a church over such abuse and find themselves becoming target practice for the pastors, elders, and those who covered for them.
I would contend that sexual abuse has far-reaching effects. Hence, Jesus’s words to tie a millstone around the neck of the one who causes a child to stumble.
What do you think would have happened if the apostles had participated in abusing children or committing clergy abuse with members of their churches? I think the church would have stalled in its historic growth.
Wax contends that most people leave the church because they want to leave the church.
Of course, people leave the church because of many reasons. I’m sure that was the case in the early church as well. Some gradually drift away because church membership is not meaningful to them.
We choose to invest our time in something other than our local congregation. We put off the decision to join a local church when we move to a new town. We prioritizeother activities over worship with other believers.
Unfortunately, he lumps the following statement in with the previous quote.
We leave a fellowship if we experience hurt and distress there, and we choose not to look for another church where spiritual healing might be found.
Wax appears to have little understanding of the impact of abuse on the individual. Sexual abuse victims require intensive psychological help in dealing with their abuse. The abuse victims are often looked at as problematic to new churches. One only needs to look at how a Sovereign Grace heaped more abuse on Rachael Denhollander as they learned of her abuse at the hands of Larry Nasser. Does Wax think this sort of reception is hanging out the welcome sign for victims? This sort of thing happens over and over.
Wax contends that God will deal with the abusers but fails to mention the possible timetable.
Wax needs to be very careful here. These bad shepherds will be punished one day, but it might not happen here and now. Many abusive pastors are still out there, leading churches or speaking at conferences. What happens to the victims and those who love them when God delays the needed retribution?
I can hear the howls of protest already—as if insisting on church membership is just another way to minimize, justify, or excuse the abominable behavior of some who claim the name of Christ. Let’s be clear about the rot in the church. God will not be mocked. He will deal justly with bad shepherds who misuse his name to commit atrocities and prey on his precious flock. No sin against his people goes unnoticed.
Wax quickly reminds all that it’s not the scandals that drive people away from the church; it’s “wayward hearts.”
most of today’s dechurching is the result of our wayward hearts, not church leader scandals. The human heart tends toward sin, and when we walk down a disobedient path, we’re inclined to rationalize our direction and decisions.
One only needs to look at the trajectory of Catholics leaving the RCC. Its great dechurching coincides with the exposing of the sexual abuse crisis in that church. Wax carefully ignores that sexual abuse and other scandals affect more than the victim. How many Protestant Christians decided that the RCC scandal was because priests couldn’t marry? Then we learned that marriage doesn’t prevent pedophilia, as we have experienced in the evangelical world.
I believe that the sexual abuse crisis, along with domestic abuse, is considered so heinous by decent people that abuse could cause more than the victim to leave the church. One church I know lost more than 1,000 members when its sexual abuse of many young teen boys became known.
Here is the statement from that article that landed on Twitter.
Lentini claims we are living in decades and decades of dealing with abuse and other crimes and sins, and many churches covered it up. Currently, We are finding out concerning stuff about Piper’s church and MacArthur’s church. It is happening in. smaller churches as well.
The following is a video by Lentini. He goes through every aspect of Wax’s article. It is pretty long but thorough. He says that the church has neglected sexual abuse victims. Sadly, the church waited for the #MeToo movement to wake up.
- “The biggest threat to Christianity is Christians.”
- “It’s saying you love Jesus and cover up abuse.”
- It’s hypocrisy. It’s when Christians hide the fact that people sin.
Lentini goes on to discuss this at length.
Why hasn’t TGC apologized for their support of CJ Mahaney? Until they do, I think they will never get it. So, can leaving a church be a net positive for one’s faith?
“Most of today’s dechurching (what is that word anyway?!) is the result of our wayward hearts, not church leader scandals.” A couple of things here: I hate HATE when people say things/make a statement then don’t back it up. Where are the statistics? How does he know that is why? And it is your church leaders who have the wayward hearts who think they can abuse and then put the pressure on the victims to forgive. Thanks for that YouTube. I will go watch it now.
I guess it depends what you mean by “church.”
Private experiences of God’s presence are deeply meaningful, but by themselves they don’t sustain us for the long haul (or maybe that’s just me, idk). We need other people for the day to day. So if by “church” you mean “a group of people who embody Jesus together by giving and receiving love and support,” then yeah you need church. But if “church” is a group of people that show up on Sundays in a churchy building to talk churchy talk and sing churchy songs and listen to a churchy guy give a churchy lecture, then no. Do that if you want, but if you don’t, go find a church that looks like a book club or friends having coffee or AA or a volunteer group or whatever.
“Piper stressed the impossibility of thinking someone could follow Christ and leave the church altogether. “To walk away from the church is to walk away from Christ””
Does anyone know the Greek word for “Baloney”?
Good Lord, as many Wartburgers have experienced, you have to walk away from certain churches in order to find Christ! Not every church is the Church and Jesus doesn’t hang out in such places … so why would I want to?!
Piper’s words are yet another attempt to shame pewsitters into remaining in the pews and to follow the leader no matter what, akin to chastisement of churchgoers for reading watchblogs. The NeoCal movement has lost its appeal in many places and believers are starting to look elsewhere for authentic Church. Meanwhile, Piper continues to throw sensational stuff out there to remain the ultimate authority in the kingdom of men.
In regard to Trevin Wax, he is what is known in worldly terms as a brown-noser. He has flattered his way into the NeoCal inner ring and will defend his idols to the last breath.
American churchgoers would do well to pause and reflect on what Church is and what Church isn’t. If they take a serious look at the New Testament model for doing Church, they will find much of what we call Church is not ‘the’ Church at all. Very little of the American “church” resembles the Body of Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven on earth in the here and now. We’ve lost our way.
Exactly.
“Wax wags his finger at those who have said similar things about walking away from the church. He claims they are individualistic and that such a thing was not present a mere decade ago.”
Jesus came to redeem and work through individuals, not institutions. The institution we call “church” is OK if it is reaching souls for Christ, discipling them in the Word, equipping them to do the work of the ministry, enabling them to operate in their unique spiritual gifting, and mobilizing all the gifts given to the church to fulfill the Great Commission together. Anything less than that is doing church without God.
“Wax said:
While not ruling out the choice of a believer to walk away from a particular congregation, Piper stressed the impossibility of thinking someone could follow Christ and leave the church altogether. “To walk away from the church is to walk away from Christ,” he said.
Wax wags his finger at those who have said similar things about walking away from the church. He claims they are individualistic and that such a thing was not present a mere decade ago.”
============================================================
I wonder if Wax has ever heard of A.W. Pink? He was a pastor and an author and didn’t attend church the last 12 years of his life.
“Here’s a synopsis (that agrees with Ian Murray’s account) of the Pinks’ time in the Hebrides and their experience in church, and with Rev. MacRae:
…they resolved to make what was their last move, travelling to the Hebrides, an island of the north west coast of Scotland where they lived until their deaths. They arrived in mid-October 1940 at the Manse of Wallace B. Nicholson the Free Presbyterian minister in North Uist.
They moved to a flat in Lewis Street in Stornoway and remained in that street for the next 12 years in fact until Arthur Pink died. The community was overwhelmingly Gaelic speaking with many having no spoken English. The two confessional congregations in Stornoway, the Free Church and the Free Presbyterian, had small afternoon services in English. They attended the Free Church for three months but it was unused to strangers, and there was no provision made for welcoming such people as the Pinks. The commitment to no idle chatter after the service was over meant that people went out quietly and straight home, even though they might have been deeply touched by the sermon. The Pinks thought the atmosphere was chilly and stopped attending church.
Attempts were made for Kenneth MacRae, the minister, and Arthur Pink to meet but they could not find a suitable time, and perhaps the attempt was half-hearted in both cases, Mr. MacRae had never heard of Pink nor of his magazine and later came to regret that he had not been more diligent in visiting the stranger who had been visiting his church. He often went to see Mrs. Pink after the death of her husband. So for the last years of their lives the Pinks did not attend church.
Arthur no longer made friends as he did when he had been a younger man and he did not encourage people to visit them though two men travelled far on different occasions to knock on the door of 28 Lewis Street and were allowed in. But in the magazine such visits were not welcomed Pink believing that more could be accomplished by letter than by a personal visit.
So there in Scotland he died quite painfully of a form of anaemia, refusing to take any drug that would dull his mind and prevent him doing his work. On July 15, 1952, he passed away into the full joy of the words he loved to quote–
He and I in one bright glory endless bliss shall share;
Mine, to be for ever with him, His that I am there.”
True. Go where Jesus is, and that is the real church. The Church is the Body of Christ. Romans 12, 1 Cor. 12, Ephesians 4.
One can’t go wrong by going where Jesus is.
Ezekiel 10: God left the Temple. Perhaps today, God has left some churches.
I disagree. I think, perhaps today, some churches have left God.
So the Desert Fathers and Mothers of the early church who left the temptations of civilization and material goods to live as hermits in the wilderness in their pursuit of Jesus were what, exactly? Pretend Christians?
“To walk away from the church is to walk away from Christ,” he said.
Hey Piper,
What about the church leaders who are committing atrocities and wrecking people’s lives??? Are they remaining near and dear to Christ just because they continue to attend church so that they will have opportunities to harm some more of God’s children.
“I’m not sure anyone knows what Piper means when he goes off on a subject.”
I have a degree. I have read through the Bible on several occasions. I have worked in IT and computer security. While I won’t claim to be the sharpest tack in the box, I am reasonably confident that I am not the dullest.
I tried reading one of his books once (can’t remember which one now). It was so convoluted and difficult to follow that I gave up after a while. What a disaster.
I don’t find John Stott, the shallow “influencer” with political connections, an authority. And several “evangelical” church officers have told me to find a different church.
Sarah (aka Wild Honey),
Be quite… you are confusing the masses…. Piper, Wax, et al. only have power when the masses are ignorant!
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
You are both correct..
The thought occurs that the institutions have little incentive to self-police if their victims simply circulate within the existing structures. “Where else can they go?”
When “not back to the institutions” is an option, the people who control the institutions may begin to notice. If they care about the health of their institutions, they should welcome this dialectical process; it pressures them to reform.
Back in OT period, worship of YHWH was a family-scale matter with occasional (a few times a year) appearance at the central worship facility, the Temple at Jerusalem.
I suspect that insistence on weekly attendance at meetings is more about hierarchy and control than it is about actual promotion of holiness among the people of God.
CMT,
My sentiments exactly.
Yeah, that and the career preacher types don’t have salaries or book deals if people stop showing up.
The thought occurs that the preferred outcome, that victims simply circulate within the existing structures, is very similar to the phenomenon of victimizers circulating from place to place.
The whole thing seems quite rotten.
It is hard for me to not believe that the hand of God is in significant ways against these institutions.
Sarah (aka Wild Honey),
Good point. I don’t exactly get the whole hermit thing myself, but Christian faith finds expression in so many diverse ways in different times and places. It seems really shortsighted to talk as though whatever expression you are most familiar with is the only valid one.
Todd Wilhelm,
Love the back story Todd. All we here in Reformed circles and Mr. Pink’s critics is that he didn’t go to church in the last years of his life. Adding the human context of why is sure enlightening. Peace Todd
That, in a nutshell, is the core underlying issue I have with New Calvinism. This arrogant bunch talks and walks like they alone possess truth. Al Mohler put it this way:
“What options are there? If you’re a theologically minded, deeply convictional young evangelical, if you’re committed to the gospel and you want to see the nations rejoice in the name of Christ, if you want to see gospel-built and structured and committed churches, your theology is just gonna end up basically being Reformed, basically being something like this New Calvinism or you’re gonna have to invent some other label for what’s just gonna be the same thing. There just are not options out there. And that’s something that I think frustrates some people. But when I am asked about the New Calvinism, I will say just basically, where else are they gonna go? Who else is gonna answer the questions? Where else will they find the resources they need? And where else are they gonna connect? This is a generation that understands, they want to say the same thing Paul said. They want to stand with the Apostles. They want to stand with old, dead people. And they know they are going to have to if they are going to preach and teach the truth.”
Celebrity preachers such as John Piper, seem to loose touch with reality. They suddenly think that whatever they say is worth hearing and must be the gospel truth. I treasure some of John Piper’s early books. he appears to me to have lost total focus in his later years. When a preachers lacks compassion for the lost sheep, it is really just tragic.
Bingo! New Calvinism prospers where the pew ain’t got a clue … where Truth is so easily exchanged for error … where the genuine is pushed out to make room for counterfeit … where the authority and influence of Jesus are usurped and given to Piper and men like him.
Traded his birthright for a bowl of NeoCal stew.
Indeed! For many, walking away from church meant walking away from Driscoll … from MacDonald … from Hybels … from Bickle … etc. It didn’t mean walking away from Christ.
And some have even been smart enough and spiritual enough to walk away from Piper!
When you walk away from “church” to find “Church”, Jesus goes looking for you.
Well, here’s the deal. As a believer, ‘you’ are the temple!
Another version of “Blame the Sheep” who have wandered after being beaten or ignored by the Shepherds. Incapable of true self reflection with this group.
Traitors and Thought-Criminals.
SMITE! SMITE! SMITE! SMITE! SMITE!
Never underestimate the Arrogance of GAWD’s Predestined Elect (and they KNOW it).
SKUBALON?
A more accurate word is PARASITE.
The tick/leech/tapeworm sucking on the Apex Predator.
RIGHTEOUS SCOLDS.
After all, there can be NO individuals in the Collective Hive.
(Except for the Hive Queen on top.)
Ask any ant in an anthill or North Korean Object.
With the risk of getting stuck in the “Take Your God And Shove It!” phase.
After all, all the Abuse and Stifling done to you was done in the Name of God and Christ, on direct orders from On High. Whether by private revelations and prophecies or the hammer of SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE!
And some of the damage will be permanent or close as makes no difference.
For example, I’m a compulsive creative. After I discovered D&D and bailed on Koinonia House CHRISTIAN Fellowship (an end-of-the-world cult in all but name), I had to push God completely out of my headspace in order to create anything. For decades afterwards.
Max, Samual, Todd, Ava, preach it!
We cannot ever GO to church, because if we are believers we ARE the church, and ARE the new temple. What we can do is fellowship together and work together to tell others about Jesus.
But that doesn’t require ordination, seminary degrees, fancy buildings, or rites and rituals with restrictions as to who can perform them. All of that smacks of shamanism.
We can certainly use those things only if we are using them correctly and for the correct purposes.
To make a living, to feel powerful, to make good connections, or to outsource our Christian responsibilities are not valid reasons to use those things. They are sinful.
And yeah, if you or a family member has suffered any sort of church abuse, sometimes you simply have to sit down and decide: I can have church, or I can have Jesus.
Choose Jesus every time!
Wolves in shepherd’s clothing.
Funny that none of these men want to address the elephant in the room…a huge number of people are leaving churches when they realize that the people they thought they could trust, who were following Jesus and his teachings, are also somehow 100% head-first ride-or-die Trumpers who will literally put guns above widows and orphans. When you wake up on the day after the 2020 election and see exit polls showing 80% of white protestants in your district voted for Trump AGAIN, you start to wonder which Jesus they are following.
Not “wolves”, Max.
FERAL JUNKYARD DOGS.
Wolves have more Class than that.
To quote Colonel Potter, these kinds of responses (from Wax) really “chaps my keister.” This is a classic example of deflecting by making the other person the issue. It’s not that so many churches are cesspools of narcissism, spiritual abuse, sexual abuse, power grabbing, and other sins… People are just highlighting this more to have an excuse to leave these churches. What B.S.! These bozos need to have a Revelation epiphany where they bravely acknowledge what Jesus would truly say about to their churches. A lot of lamp stands should be put in storage.
The problem is that these guys define churches theologically… Do they have orthodox doctrine? Do they practice church discipline? Do they biblically practice the sacraments, etc. What truly defines a church is where there are both believers gathering and the Holy Spirit is present, the latter being evidenced by shepherds who love their sheep like Christ loves them and the wonderful aroma of the fruit of the Spirit.
People are leaving the “church” because the basic manifestation of Christ-likeness is scarce or even being grossly violated by those who call themselves pastors and leaders. If basic fruit is not being produced in the lives of the leaders, can you even call that group a church?
I am not a prophet or a son of a prophet, but I have to wonder how long the Lord will be patient with the American churches. He will not withhold his winnowing fork to separate the wheat from the chaff forever.
Was that Chuck Missler’s outfit? (K-house)
Back in the day (he’s gone to the great bible study in the sky), he had a lot of traction for a horde of fundagelicals.
Conspiracy theorist, ring-master of the esoteric, Missler had quite a following.
Just want to add the Pinks were probably unable to move somewhere else (even if they wanted to) because of World War II. That said, even I, a professional introvert, would have gone crazy living like A.W. Pink. I would have wanted to learn at least some Gaelic and gotten involved in the community. I’m going to be very sarcastic here and this is Just My Personal Opinion: He probably dumped all the dealing with the locals on his wife, because he couldn’t be bothered; he had Great Works to write. Seems very isolating to me.
I’m heartened that Jesus is He Who leaves the 99 to track down the 1 lost sheep. Dee (and presumably others here) is acting like Jesus.
Isn’t it funny?
It seems as though the ones who don’t try for greatness achieve it with their art alone.
Here’s a good antidote for Piper’s death-cult nonsense.
It’s about the human joy of living and celebrating the goodness of everyday life:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg8H9vrJCcU
I don’t think so.
This was a commune whose cult compound was two large Craftsman houses and one older fourplex in Whittier, circa 1974-76. Had the crawlspaces under the houses dug out and bunks put in. Twenty-something Elders with direct lines to God, Shepherding Movement, Dake’s Annotated Bibles, a “fellowship” owned janitorial service the rank-and-file worked in, lotsa love-bombing and “come out from among the HEATHEN”, and wretched-urgency Witnessing on Whittier Blvd Cruise Nights.
I’m pretty sure like Calvary Chapel they were some sort of overripe splinter of the Jesus People movement. That’s judging from all the Hollywood Free Papers. Distinct aroma of Rapture any minute now and everything that was not Forbidden (i.e. Bible Study, Prayer, Devotions, and Witnessing) was absolutely compulsory.
The most ominous thing in retrospect was their “push to be “Discipled” in what’s now called a Shepherding Movement, high-pressuring us to get “Filled with The Holy Spirit”, and how you could tell someone was Filled when they stopped resisting completely and submitted with a “POP!” of Discipleship. AKA the “snapping” phenomenon in forcible indoctrination/brainwashing where after Room 101 He Loved Big Brother.
As far as I can tell they were a completely-independent “splinter church” with possible connection to a local Fundagelical church. After 50 years, the details are hard to remember. During the Eighties I heard they’d disbanded and that some of their people needed to be forcibly and involuntarily Deprogrammed.
I still occasionally pore over satellite maps of Whittier, going to Streetside to see if I can recognize any of their Houses (which I remember being on the North end of Whittier). So for, nothing.
Samuel Conner,
“I suspect that insistence on weekly attendance at meetings is more about hierarchy and control than it is about actual promotion of holiness among the people of God.”
+++++++++++++++++
yeah… my sense is that the main point here is promoting the pastor industry.
it’s about careers.
and since change can be uncomfortable, it might also be for sentimental reasons. (‘i like my religious-themed club. we can’t have a club if people don’t come.’)
.
.
i despise christians who, for their own convenience, take a piece of information (a half truth or a complete falsehood) & contrive to get people to do what they want them to do,
manipulating them with guilt, peer pressure,
dangling carrot of “be a good Christian by doing x, y, z” / “don’t be a disappointment to God” / “please God by doing x, y, z” / “legitimate christians do x, y and z”
frankly, church services are loaded with this.
the leaders at my most recent church (who are great human beings) had no idea they were doing this.
it’s built in to christian culture and the pastor industry
SBC seminaries graduate about 1500 pastor-wannabes each year. Folks like Wax must prepare the way for them with articles like this … to keep butts in pews and money in the plate to finance an ever-increasing NeoCal army. There’s more promoting of pastors than Jesus.
Believer,
Exactly..
And, the comments of Piper et al sound like how the RCC treated Luther et al…
Afterburne,
Me, too! I can generally make sense of toddlers, of seniors with dementia, and of English-language-learners. But I have to seriously concentrate my way through John Piper’s word salads to get to the central theme.
I think the title and some of the words from Mac Davis country song (1980) describe what is happening with Piper, Mohler and the “tribe” quite well:
“Lord, it’s hard to be humble when you’re perfect in every way.”…………………..
“To know me is to love me. I must be a hell of a man.”
Come unto me you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest.
Not the same program ! It seems the other way round. Some thing is very wrong
Some people leave for reasons such as Piper himself…who say divorced persons cannot biblically remarry but then he attends his sons second wedding…who say abused wives should tolerate a beating…who had Natalie Hoffman kicked out of Bethlehem Baptist for exposing her abusive spouse …whose son openly mocks the faith….do i need to go on….
Sarah (aka Wild Honey),
Me to…. My speculation is his attempt to sound like an “intellectual”…….
Being intellectual doesn’t necessarily mean you are smart. Intellect has nothing to do with wisdom. Religious word salads only work on people who don’t have a knowledge/understanding of Scripture, who have no spiritual wisdom … who so easily fall for Piper’s mumbo-jumbo.
“Elders/pastors must have children who believe” (Titus 1:6)
All,
Just a note of gratitude. I lurk often and post seldom, and I am so grateful for the voices of reason I find here I the articles and comments!
My journey out of calvingelicalism has been rocky, and I have had to jettison nearly every fake relationship and every false doctrine in order to clear my head and find a way forward. Today, I simply believe that Jesus is who the Bible says he is and did what the Bible said he did. Nothing more, nothing less.
Gods blessings to you all – keep the true faith!
How this histrionic drama queen built a dynasty and had so many books published is truly a miracle but not of the biblical kind.
So many young men wanted an emotional “dad” to follow after, who states that the man is in charge of the wife? Even slapping her around?
More of the “need to belong” demographic? Desperately?
Maybe mutual desperation… Piper’s own sons counter his own teachings … so he seeks young men followers as replacements.
They all need each other, find each other. They don’t share their HS gifts (Rom. 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph. 4). They share their black holes. Codependent.
Makes one wonder how much of “church” is codependency instead of: mutual collaboration while all worshipping God alone as described in Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4.
Rapid Roy,
Likewise. May the peace of Christ be with you.
I’m sure you are talking about wholesome, modest families, so this is extending the discussion rather than challenging you.
Growing up, I knew a lot of preachers’ kids who felt enormous pressure to be True Christians because one frown or protest could end Daddy’s calling. Thus I have never viewed Titus 1:6 as a Simple Rule.
Regarding Abraham Piper and other children of Famous Mega Pastors, God also gave us a capacity to see oppression, hypocrisy, and excess—the very things that Abraham Piper mocks. I am far more worried when the sons follow in Daddy’s gilded footsteps.
Here’s a longer passage from Titus 1:
“I left you behind in Crete for this reason, that you should put in order what remained to be done, and should appoint elders in every town, as I directed you: someone who is blameless, married only once, whose children are believers, not accused of debauchery and not rebellious. For a bishop, as God’s steward, must be blameless; he must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or addicted to wine or violent or greedy for gain; but he must be hospitable, a lover of goodness, prudent, upright, devout, and self-controlled. He must have a firm grasp of the word that is trustworthy in accordance with the teaching, so that he may be able both to preach with sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict it.”
I don’t see that in my current church (Lutheranism, the ELCA version).
It’s Liturgy based, ancient incantations, a very short and tame homily, and then coffee and donuts with great people.
No alpha-male strongman in the pulpit, no bullying, no horse-poo-poo.
It’s easy for many of us, including me, to see one or two churches and think that all churches are the same.
I heartily recommend Dean Lentini’s YouTube videos. He is a much-needed source of common sense, sensibility, and sensitivity, especially coming from the conservative side. One caveat, though, is that he has a very strongly developed sense of personal privacy, which sometimes limits his willingness to participate in certain critical discussions. Odd for a YouTuber, I know, but hey — this is 2023, and I will take the deal!
Isn’t wax a VP at NAMB?
Yes, Wax is a Vice President at NAMB and visiting professor at the infamous Cedarville University. As a NeoCal darling, he hangs out at all the right wrong places.
Yep, I’m sure Piper’s sons had all of Daddy’s religion that they could stomach growing up. Piper once said that he hoped that his sons were in the “elect” but confessed that they might not be. That would sure the heck bother the boys … that their Daddy thought they might have been damned before the foundation of the world! No wonder that they cut and run.
Praise God! It takes a while to flush the counterfeit and find the genuine. Religious noise has a way of getting you off track. Returning to the basics as you have done is refreshing … keeping the Main Thing the main thing is liberating. Jesus set you free … may we all get free and stay there!
Since staying home and saving 10%, the Statler Brothers describe a good Sunday for me
“I keep hearin’ you’re concerned about my happiness
But all that thought you’re givin’ me is conscience I guess
If I were walkin’ in your shoes, I wouldn’t worry none
While you and your friends are worried about me, I’m havin’ lots of fun
Countin’ flowers on the wall
That don’t bother me at all
Playin’ solitaire ’til dawn with a deck of 51
Smokin’ cigarettes and watchin’ Captain Kangaroo
Now don’t tell me, I’ve nothin’ to do”
Minus the cigarettes that is.
Fact is church doesn’t offer anything anymore that me or my family need.
There’s nothing in common with the Jesus of the Gospels
My wife talks about going but winds up watching the online service.
Me, Captain Kangaroo is closer my ethics than any church. Thank goodness for YouTube, as Cap isn’t around anymore.
This is the church of my childhood. I miss that. They don’t really care about how you believe or if you believe the same way they do.
“You don’t need any intellect to be an Intellectual.”
— one of the Father Brown mysteries
“Wile. E. Coyote. Super. Genius.”
— Wile E Coyote’s only speaking role at Warner Bros Animation
And his son Abraham might be in full-honk “Take Your God and Shove It!” backlash mode.
That usually mellows down over time, but some get stuck at that full-intensity stage and never get beyond it.
I left the SBC as the product that was declared as “worship” did not conform to the truth of scripture. “The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects” then our SBC church spent $2mil to buy a parking lot for our convenience. I could not be a part anymore as they appeared to be a self serving institution. We joined an ARPC church where the congregation did honor the word, and rejoiced in Christ. So did i really walk away as Piper said. He probably would approve as the church we went to had reformed in its name. We moved a few years later and are currently in a place unable to find a church for 3 years. One small church run by a family (nepotism, no accountability), another PCA with absolute hatred of women in a traditional patriarchal understanding. Another where worship is mindless top 40 “christian” songs with cool lights. I really have become so discouraged that the basic understanding that there are no good churches to find has become a worldview/conviction. I am in the service industry and I’m amazed at how many church recommendations I receive as I visit with people in the community Where the main draw is “our pastor is wonderful” I am not coming to experience your wonderful churchy man, I am coming to rejoice in a savior that paid for me to be a part of his family.
I have been a regular visitor here for at least 6 years, finally worked up courage to post.
I felt the same way, especially back when he was still the new, cool thing on the block. The people around me were raving about how wise he was, and I was sitting over here wondering if he needed to see a therapist.
Me Now: He needed to see a therapist…
Too many American churches are built around the personality of the pastor, rather than the presence of Jesus. It’s wonderful to have a wonderful pastor, but the testimony from the pew should declare “Jesus is wonderful!”
Amen! And if you are not in a church where the Main Thing is the main thing, it’s alright to leave regardless of what Piper thinks.
Sounds like poor Abraham has PTPD (Post Traumatic Piper Disorder). I have a feeling that there will be a lot of that going around when the NeoCal movement is over (John Piper has been referred to as the Father of New Calvinism).
Anyone that refers to himself as a “Christian Hedonist” needs therapy of some sort!
Rapid Roy,
“in order to clear my head and find a way forward.”
+++++++++++++
nice to read your comment.
i’ve just stuck with psalms for the longest time.
everything else starts these tapes rolling…
-either parts of really stupid songs, with dumb melody/harmony or totally invasive melody/harmony
-or parts of really stupid conjecture
-or parts of what was sold as God-sanctioned discrimination
-or God-sanctioned subjugation
-or Jesus gave it all so you must give it all (to the church, that is) and if you still have any agency left you’ve not given your all
-or various and sundry neuroses and paranoia
-and the strangest cocktail of superiority complex mixed with inferiority complex…
.
.
-and so many doctrines and ideas that destroy lives and relationships by degrees
of course these things are usually not articulated in so many words — but they are the inference & logical conclusion of what is said.
Thanks for adding your voice and wisdom!