The Necklace Nebula-a pair of tightly orbiting Sunlike stars Nasa
“These people do not know that while Barak trembled, Deborah saved Israel, that Esther delivered from supreme peril the children of God … Is it not to women that our Lord appeared after His Resurrection? Yes, and the men could then blush for not having sought what the women had found.”—Jerome, after criticism for dedicating his books to women
Today, Religion News posted Synod raises hopes for long-sought recognition of women in the Catholic Church. This was subtitled:
Called to examine power structures in the Catholic Church, the Synod on Synodality will grapple in large part with the role of women.
In October, bishops and certain laity members will participate in the Synod on Synodality. Pope Francis wishes to reform the church hierarchy and investigate how to incorporate the laity into church functioning. But underneath is all, the need to integrate women into the church’s functioning. Casey Stanton, co-director of Discerning Deacons, seeks to dialogue about including women in the diaconate.
open the door for women to become deacons — allowing them to oversee some aspects of the Mass but not consecrate the Eucharist or perform other duties reserved for priests such as anointing the sick — could send an important signal to Catholics that the Vatican is listening to their concerns.
This year approximately 17% of those voting will be women, which is a first for this group. The Vatican weighed in:
the Vatican issued its “instrumentum laboris,” or working document that will guide the discussion at the synod, it explicitly asked: “Most of the Continental Assemblies and the syntheses of several Episcopal Conferences call for the question of women’s inclusion in the diaconate to be considered. Is it possible to envisage this, and in what way?”
What I found most intriguing is that the discussion in the RCC mirrors that in the SBC in this way. Define what a deacon is, and does it involve ordination?
While it’s undeniable that women deacons existed in the early and pre-medieval church, theologians and historians remain divided on whether women were ordained deacons or if they occupied the role in a more informal way.
“There were women deacons in the past. We could do it again,” Stanton said. “Let’s just settle that.”
The division on the question means that Francis will likely have to decide. “Our prediction is that there is going to be a bit of a stalemate between those bishops who fear a diaconate role for women, and those who say now it’s the time, let’s give them the diaconate,
What do Baptists and Catholics share in common? A shortage of pastors/ priests.
- The Southern Baptist Convention has acknowledged an overall shortage of pastors, seeking to address it with a 2021 initiative to “call out the called” for vocational ministry.
- Priest shortage leaves over 3,500 churches without resident priest
Could a shortage of those entering vocational ministry lead to the need for more volunteers to fill those roles? Could it be that women may be the answer to fulfilling those needs?
Then there is the controversy about what the term ‘pastor’ means in the SBC.
TWW readers pondered the question: What Can Only a Pastor Do? (A Bow Goes Out to SBC Voices.)As we all know, Saddleback Church got booted from the SBC. Suddenly, any woman with the title of ‘pastor’ was in jeopardy of causing her church to get axed from the SBC. Egads! The pastor’s retirement is at risk. What shall we do? Then. The inevitable happened. Let’s change their title from ‘pastor’ to “minister.’ Problem solved. Then some others claim that this would be fraud if the woman were still serving as a pastor. Others said, “Can we define what a pastor does that sets him apart- a job description of sorts?”
So, fold into this the fact that SBC members are dropping like flies. It is not out of line to say that women are needed more than ever. Maybe Sister Sue can help with communion since Brother Bob quit and joined some church named “Antique,” which, unbeknownst to him, is figuring out how to join the SBC so pastor Jedidiah can opt-in for that retirement special. Consider this.
the average-sized SBC church, somewhere around 125, and the median sized SBC churches, somewhere around 70.
Churches that small will need to utilize the women beyond organizing the weekly potluck. (The men organize and cook the weekly dinner in my Lutheran church.)
The Texas Baptists vote to allow women as ministers.
We see what you did there, Texas. Religion News Services posted Texas Baptists affirm women in ministerial roles as the SBC debate moves to states.
the Baptist General Convention of Texas adopted a statement on Tuesday (July 18) urging its staff to continue to affirm women in “ministerial and leadership roles.”
The following statement appears to say, “We gotta do something here. Throwing out Saddleback put a bullseye on the SBC.”
The vote by the BGCT, the more progressive of Texas’ two state Baptist conventions, showed there is at least qualified support for women to act as leaders in their churches. Importantly, the motion didn’t use the word “pastor,” instead commissioning the convention’s executive board to support “developing more strategies, resources, and advocacy initiatives to assist churches in affirming, appointing, and employing women in ministerial and leadership roles.”
Dwight McKissic, who is threatening to take his black church out of the SBC, said:
Pastor Dwight McKissic, who preached at a BGCT gathering the evening before the vote was taken, later expressed his support for the language as it was passed.
“It respects autonomy & diversity and that’s all I’ve wanted on this issue,” said McKissic, pastor of an Arlington church, in a text message to RNS.
This leads to the last item for the day
Will black churches, many of which have women as pastors, leave the SBC? I guarantee you that this haunts the sleep of the SBC leadership.
Think about this one, folks. When Mike Law put together his infamous list of “churches that have women who are called pastors,” did he figure on the racial problem rearing its head once again? Racism and the SBC once went together like peanut butter and jelly. It still does in some circles, which may harm getting people into an SBC church. So, in the article mentioned above, Texas Baptists affirm women in ‘ministerial’ roles as the BC debate moves to states; the following information was added in.
This week, leaders of the National African American Fellowship of the Southern Baptist Convention also gathered, for a meeting with SBC President Bart Barber in Ridgecrest, North Carolina, after Black ministers expressed concern about how the recent SBC votes could affect women in ministry in Black churches.
The Rev. Gregory Perkins, the fellowship’s president, wrote to Barber earlier this month asking for the meeting. Perkins pointed out that many of his organization’s churches “assign the title ‘pastor’ to women who oversee ministries of the church under the authority of a male Senior Pastor, i.e., Children’s Pastor, Worship Pastor, Discipleship Pastor, etc.”
…We have spent the last day and a half in intensive conversation and dialogue,” Perkins said in the video. “Here is our single goal: to ensure that the SBC family remains unified. We are one family. We have all kinds of different aspects of our family but we’re one family.”
I have been to several meetings at Ridgecrest with another group. It did not escape me that the Billy Graham Center and Billy Graham’s home is nearby. Graham (a Baptist) was known for breaking down barriers between various groups as he spread the Gospel message. I don’t want to get into an argument about Graham and whether or not you think that altar calls are of the devil. Instead, I want to focus on the fact that he understood the differences between churches and effectively worked with people from all facets of Christendom. I wonder if the SBC could do the same. They claim individual church autonomy but are rapidly developing their own creedal system to be applied at all cooperating churches.
All churches are losing members, and things are in flux. Stay tuned.
“Let’s change their title from ‘pastor’ to ‘minister.'”
“What’s in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other word would smell as sweet.” (Juliet)
“Racism and the SBC once went together like peanut butter and jelly.”
I dare say that few Southern Baptists know that the SBC was founded by Calvinist slave-holders (including pastors and deacons). During the Civil War, they believed sovereign God was on their side until early Confederate victories turned to defeat. Following the War, Southern Baptists distanced themselves from the Founders’ theology and remained distinctly non-Calvinist in belief and practice for 150 years until Al Mohler launched a campaign to return the SBC to its theological roots via the New Calvinist movement.
Sadly, SBC did not address the racial sins of their Founders until 1995 when they adopted a resolution on racial reconciliation at their annual meeting. In that resolution, they noted “Our relationship to African-Americans has been hindered from the beginning by the role that slavery played in the formation of the Southern Baptist Convention … Many of our Southern Baptist forbears defended the right to own slaves, and either participated in, supported, or acquiesced in the particularly inhumane nature of American slavery … In later years Southern Baptists failed, in many cases, to support, and in some cases opposed, legitimate initiatives to secure the civil rights of African-Americans.”
https://www.sbc.net/resource-library/resolutions/resolution-on-racial-reconciliation-on-the-150th-anniversary-of-the-southern-baptist-convention/
I don’t know enough about this from a legal perspective, but I have to wonder whether if there is a tax advantage to being in the “ordained ministry.” Specifically, if you’re a “religious person,” theoretically, the organization that pays you can deduct the cost of your housing from your taxable income. So if you make $4000 a month, and your housing costs $1000, and you’re a “religious person,” (see your tax attorney for particulars), you would only have to pay taxes on $3000/month income.
Again, I know this tax dodge exists, and I also know that it can be spread fairly wide. But what I don’t know is if moving women Southern Baptist church workers from “pastor” to “minister” actually affects their ability to not have to pay taxes on their housing.
For the record, I find this tax dodge annoying. It’s up there with the PPP loans churches got (and got forgiven) in 2020 and 2021. I’m personally of the opinion that it violates the First Amendment in that it favors an establishment of religion. But you know, this is small potatoes compared to the VERY LARGE church that dominates the Intermountain West and may be sitting on over $100 billion in assets. By comparison, the average pastor is *nothing*. There, I say, TAX THE CHURCHES.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
I don’t know any of the tax benefit specifics but my church is currently debating classifying all its female children’s ministry and student ministry directors (their current titles) as pastors so that they can use the tax benefits like the male pastors do. They just started allowing female ministry directors to baptize children and students. And my church is thoroughly complementarian and will never have women in pastoral roles other than for children and student ministry so I’m surprised that they’re making these shifts but glad for the women who will be affected. (I am on my way out of this church in large part because of the complementarianism…)
I’m hung up on “Synod on Synodality,” which sounds remarkably like “Department of Redundancy Department.” Lol.
From the main article up-top:
Churches that small will need to utilize the women beyond organizing the weekly potluck. (The men organize and cook the weekly dinner in my Lutheran church.)
My split-pea soup is quite the hit in my small ELCA (Lutheran) Parish.
Muff Potter,
Potluck Pastor. There now, entitlement. Official. Are there tax benefits? For feeding souls?
Men and women are equal. Period. As long as the church stays wasting away in Deuteronomy, people will leave.
The fact that this debate is going on tells me everything I need to know.
There’s bigger issues to deal with.
Women, men, equal…repeat.
I keep getting stuck on the line “the SBC has a shortage of pastors.”
Here is my two cents as to what may be contributing to the shortage, as the wife of a former SBC pastor.
It would help if SBC churches (or any church, really) didn’t expect full-time work for part-time wages. Particularly if they also encourage the pastor’s wife to not work outside the home.
It would help if they were more open to hiring men who happened to be single.
It would help if they accepted educational backgrounds from outside the SBC bubble.
It would help if the hiring process didn’t take months on end.
It would help if they’d actively seek out members of ethnic minority groups to lead majority-white churches.
It would help if seminaries had less training on theology and more training on emotional intelligence and how to encourage it in others. For that matter, it would help if a Master’s of Divinity only required two years of graduate school instead of four (or finally admitted it and called itself a Ph.D.).
It would help if the three tiny SBC churches within spitting distance of each other in any given community would put aside their differences and merge together to combine resources and be able to afford a full-time pastor.
Again, just my two cents (realizing that the situations we encountered aren’t representative of every single SBC church out there).
Jack,
Listen to what the dog that isn’t barking, is barking. BF&M 2025 anyone?
Maybe it’s because I’ve never attended a church that used the title minister, but to me minister is synonymous with pastor, but perhaps a bit old-fashioned. Does anyone know if it is usual in the SBC to use minister as a title for a junior ministry position? I had not heard that before this discussion of changing women pastors titles came up, so to me it sounds as if people are saying “we’re fine with women being lawyers, but not attorneys.”
“Get-together regarding getting together.” I think it was a worthwhile exercise in spite of the tautological title. We learned useful things at our parish and diocese level.
I do not find “ ordination” anywhere in the New Testament.Laying on of hands for a specific task, yes, but the elevation of a man or woman into a permanent position of leadership is rare. “ Pastor” is one of the many roles people are called to in the Bible. In the early history of Baptists in England leading was not considered to be a permanent role.
I find the concept of ‘hiring’ and ‘firing’ quite weird. A leader should be ‘called’ by the congregation as fulfilling the scriptural requirements for shepherding the people.
It seems the Texas Baptists are nearly there as far as women leading goes! But investing the word ‘pastor’ with some sort of special status and , as in some denominations, assigning pastors special powers of absolution or handing out the sacraments or teaching will necessarily lead to the role being men only in the more patriarchal culture that obtains amongst them where power is vital. This goes against the priesthood of each believer which is so clearly laid out in scripture.
Exactly. But here is the issue in SBC life right now. When SBC’s new reformers (I call them Mohlerites) began their mission to Calvinize the denomination, they first began with revising the Baptist Faith & Message in 2000. The revision team included Al Mohler. The changes not only focused on the role of women (men-only pastors), but clearly diminished long-standing Baptist doctrines of “soul competency” and “priesthood of ‘the’ believer.” The NeoCals have essentially pushed these out of the Baptist narrative in order to gain more authoritarian pulpit control over the pew. Thus, God may call a woman to the office of pastor, but the New Calvinists tell Him that He has it all wrong. They, of course, torture Scripture enough to defend their position on this and expect SBC members to get in line. Millions of non-Calvinist Southern Baptists have been extremely slow to wake up to these problems with the BFM2000, allowing the Mohlerites to gain complete control of all SBC entities (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, church planting program, SBC-affiliated colleges, etc.). It’s the darnedest thing I’ve ever seen! Mainline Southern Baptists should have sent Al Mohler packing in the 1990s when he began to rumble about taking SBC back to roots … it’s much too late to fix things now.
As a 70+ year Southern Baptist (I’m done with them now), you outline the problems with pastor shortage well. But, is there really any help for SBC at this point? IMO, the SBC is done but just hasn’t quit yet … the New Calvinists have pretty much finished it off. Rebellions never end well.
Hmmm … that’s an interesting thought. Does a male “pastor” enjoy a tax advantage over a female “minister” when their job roles are essentially similar?
Do any pastors/ministers out there have direct experience with this? An upstream comment by “sunnynorth” seems to indicate there is a tax advantage for pastor vs. minister where they live.
Where is Zacchaeus when you need him? (up in a tree, I suppose)
Or even further back in history, to the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve disobeyed God … but somehow Eve and women are to uniquely carry the curse of that disobedience despite:
-God creating both Adam and Eve equally in His image, both with equal agency
-God’s covenant with Abraham and Sarah
-God’s promise of blessing for seeking God to live in obedience (the law), for all
-God’s promises via His prophets for all who repent
-God sending Jesus for both men and women to follow Jesus
-God sending His Holy Spirit to dwell with both men and women equally
-God blessing His Church, both men and women participating equally.
Men in leadership who teach and seek to keep women as their subjects and objects, divide all of these revelations of God into two camps: men who fully participate and women who less so. False teaching.
Jesus did not teach this. The Holy Spirit blesses all in His Church who seek God equally: Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4.
Max,
Max,
Everything you said is true…. and then some. The SBC CR came very close to creating a hierarchical priesthood, almost like Catholicism. They definitely built the foundation for it.
Taking the SBC back to its roots??? The very tap root from which the SBC grew was the belief in biblical justification and preservation of slavery….the “God given right” for one human to own and control another.
And women, married women in particular??? The BF&M 2000 has essentially stripped women of direct access to the ear and voice of God. All communication from God and interpretation of the Bible is filtered through, controlled by, interpreted by, and either approved or denied by our husbands.
It’s all about power, control, and one group of people having superiority/authority over others.
What mainline non-Calvinist Southern Baptists didn’t know at the time is that the Conservative (CR) Resurgence was really a Calvinist Resurgence disguised as “Conservative”, with a small band of leaders intent on Calvinizing the convention (a mission well on its way).
CMT,
Churches that are fine with anointing youth pastors that target the teen-girls, but do not recognize equal participation of women, suffer the foolishness of their theology and practice. There is scandal after scandal. Church participants need to beware and protect their families, young people in particular.
To elevate one gender, the male variety, is to invite trouble. Men will do things and get away with stuff that is harmful to the community. In truth, all stand on level ground humbly at the foot of the cross of Jesus. In truth, that is the Body of Christ. Anything different is idolatry.
And they used the theology of their Calvinist founders to justify their “predestined” right to slavery. Obviously, the NeoCals can’t enslave other humans in 21st century America, so they put women into theo-bondage with “the beauty of complementarity.” It’s all about patriarchal authoritarian control of every jot and tittle of SBC life.
Exactly. With false theology taught and preached to orchestrate this, and make people “believe” this is of God. It’s not. It’s idolatry, oppression, and abuse, that results in scandal after scandal with the privileged class acting out their privilege, violating with license, those who are deemed “lesser” than them.
Nothing to do with following Jesus and being indwelt by God’s Holy Spirit.
What do you expect?! They think women are mere derivatives of men, not created in the direct image of God! Thus, a word from God must be filtered through men before it falls on the ears of women. They won’t say that, but the hyper among them really believe that.
The authority and influence of Jesus are waning in the American church. It’s hard to find a place these days where Jesus is teaching. The teachings and traditions of men have displaced Him.
Yes.
I hesitate to use the NeoCal label since what you describe is prevalent in our neck of the woods, without ever hearing the name Calvin. Calvin is just an excuse for some. All of what you describe happens without his help. We were totally unaware of Calvin until we started reading TWW.
It’s like people who practice the Gothard principles without association with Gothard. Apparently the subjection of peoples based on race, gender, socio-economic status, or whatever, can happen everywhere under different monikers.
How did Rwanda happen, one tribe against another? Or the subjugation of the Irish by the British? Elitism and subjugation is satan’s ploy for the Ages. Jesus reigns to set all on level ground with full agency indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
“The beauty of complementary” is completely twisted, a false identity for women who are drawn to the vain idea of women created to be uniquely “beautiful” in their subjugation by men, as somehow intended by God. It is “beauty” as in silently submissive as subjects of men, and as their objects. Are men “handsomely” in charge?
Piper-boy, Piper-bot, the Piper-boy-bot twists language:
1. He preaches Christian “hedonism” as in “Desiring God”. However, following Jesus has nothing to do with the selfish pleasures of hedonism but everything to do with love relationships with God and neighbor.
2. The “beauty of complementarianism” is completely ugly in the subjugation and objectification of women under men.
Piper seems to qualify for “the bigger the lie, the better”.
3. Piper goes on to preach that empathy is sin, that is, empathy as in love your neighbor as yourself (that’s what empathy is), is SIN. Duh, Jesus said, “Love your neighbor as yourself” and “this is how you will be known as My followers, that you LOVE one another”. But Piperboy-bot translates this to be – “Empathy is sin”. Twisted.
There must be a special place in the Hereafter for a preacher that practices “the bigger the lie, the better” or the more twisted the teaching, the greater the teacher.
Max,
Not a pastor or a minister but a retired tax professional here. So here is an excerpt that explains the IRS designation fairly well. (And I hope I am not infringing on any copyrights – I cut and pasted from a good source called ‘Clergy Financial Resources’)
When a church hires an employee, one of the initial decisions that must be made is whether to treat the worker as clergy, non-clergy employee or contractor. This decision may seem insignificant, but it has huge implications when it comes to payroll.
Ministers have what is commonly referred to as “dual tax status.” For federal income tax purposes, a minister is generally treated as a common law employee. For payments into Social Security, the minister is always self-employed. This is an IRS regulation and not an election.
Ministers are individuals who are duly ordained, commissioned, or licensed by a religious body constituting a church or church denomination. Ministers have the authority to conduct religious worship, perform sacerdotal functions, and administer ordinances or sacraments according to the prescribed tenets and practices of that church or denomination. If a church or denomination ordains some ministers and licenses or commissions others, anyone licensed or commissioned must be able to perform substantially all the religious functions of an ordained minister to be treated as a minister for social security purposes.
It is important for the employing organization (clergy are not in a position to decide whether or not they qualify for the special tax treatments) to decide whether or not the services of clergy qualify for special tax treatment. The special tax treatments
follow:
Exclusion for income tax purposes of the housing allowance and the fair rental value of a congregation-owned parsonage provided rent-free to clergy.
Exemption of clergy from self-employment tax, under very limited circumstances.
Treatment of clergy who do not elect Social Security exemption as self-employed for Social Security tax purposes for income from ministerial services.
Exemption of clergy compensation from mandatory income tax withholding.
Eligibility for a voluntary income tax withholding arrangement between the minister-employee and a congregation.
Potential double deduction of mortgage interest and real estate taxes as itemized deductions and excluded as housing expenses for housing allowance purposes.
The employing congregation, denomination, integral agency of a denomination or a church or religious organization is responsible to determine whether an individual qualifies as clergy under the federal law definition. If clergy who qualify under federal law are not afforded these special tax treatments, this can create a significant financial impairment for clergy. If clergy who do not qualify are provided the special tax treatments, the employing organization may inadvertently assist clergy in violating the tax law by affording tax-beneficial treatment for otherwise taxable dollars.
For example, the false teaching of “Desiring God” is in the wrong direction: shallow and immature. It’s an emotional rabbit hole, a wild goose chase of childish histrionics.
God created man and woman in His image, with agency, brains, creativity, productivity, and capabilities to reflect and reason. We respond by loving God back, thoughtfully. “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.”
Love, not “desire”. Adam and Eve rashly desired the fruit in the Garden, then disobeyed. Passion and disobedience.
Heart, mind, soul, and strength in response to God’s love is comprehensively way beyond desire and passion. It’s a response that is rational, discreet, and prudent beyond emotion.
FreshGrace,
Thanks! So, if an SBC church determines that a female “minister” qualifies as clergy under federal tax laws, they are equivalent to a male “pastor” federally if not recognized as such by the church. Which gets me back to “a rose by any other name …”
What happened to all those children when they followed the Pied Piper in the wrong direction?!
I use it because it fits with the blog topic on SBC’s treatment of female believers. Southern Baptists need to put a face on the underlying problem before they can put an axe to the root of the tree.
One would hope the church people in charge, and all church donor people, are reading this and much more, while assessing their practices.
I have not been on a church board. However, I’ve been on school boards. We had mandatory training at the state level to understand laws, particularly in areas of finance, reporting, and safe-for-children human resources. Essential training, IMHO. As a board member, you don’t want to act outside of principle, nor outside of the law, nor misuse resources, nor endanger vulnerables, nor treat employees unfairly. Moreover, you don’t want to get sued or charged (with breaking laws).
“Don’t aim at adding to the number of teachers, my brothers, I beg you! Remember that we who are teachers will be judged by a much higher standard.” (James 3:1 Phillips)
Got it. And I broaden this whole situation beyond Calvin and the SBC, to put an axe to even more or otherwise named but similar roots. Where the shoe fits … or where there are such roots found – strike with that axe, I say.
Jesus brought all the various factions of his day under his wing, as His disciples were from very different views. Then he retrained them all. Yay, Jesus!
My observation is that TWW reaches far and wide beyond the world of the SBC, even as the SBC goings-on bring issues to light that meander in the church at large. Are Piper, Driscoll, Wilson, Hybels, for example, even SBC? Yet they seem to agree on the subjugation of women. Even Hybels, who gave lip service to women in leadership, still treated them as objects.
How do they all rally to the same call? They all must be listening to the same someone … and he is not Jesus. Seems like it.
Some day. And what a day that will be.
Elevate a teacher, preacher, candlestick maker, even one inch above fellow travelers, and it is the beginning of an eventual deluge of disaster.
Humility in carrying the message is the ONLY way to stay on message. IMHO.
And if the audience is building & financing that platform to put the teacher, preacher, candlestick maker up there, the audience is complicit. It’s a heady thing to assess that your “leader” is better than the next guy, and somehow you are in on the secret sauce in following that elevated leader.
Indeed! And since we are talking about SBC NeoCals and their aberrant views of women in ministry, it should be noted that there is no shortage of arrogance in their ranks … it is their defining characteristic – certainly not love and humility.
No, but they have been major influencers to a new generation of SBC reformed pastors.
The serpent got the first humans off track by confusing them with “Is that what God said?”
They disappeared.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7syBEVmukJM
(Start at 1:40 to skip the embedded commercial.)
Well, the Pious Piper IS a male Drama Queen….
“Samantics, My Dear Wormwood.” (Screwtape Letters)
Histrionics, cherishes a reaction.
CMT,
“to me it sounds as if people are saying “we’re fine with women being lawyers, but not attorneys.””
++++++++++++++++
yes, indeed. so utterly ridiculous, dumb, & stupid.
but if that’s what it takes for some to have the peace of mind of feeling like they’re in control,… (well, if nothing else, it’s proof there are sillier people than me)
and the need to be biblical is really about the need to be in control.
it’s certainly not about anything honorable or laudable.
what’s honorable about being preoccupied with dotting i’s and crossing t’s to appease a divine being called Pedanticus who requires such things on penalty of something too horrible for words?
I think the issue at hand is that it matters not if the ministry position is a senior or junior role in an SBC church. If you are on the pastoral staff, you are a “pastor” if you are a man … a “minister” or “director” if you are a woman. The titles “pastor” and “elder” belong to men only. In some churches women can be deacons, but not elders when these roles are defined differently. It’s just a bunch of nonsense to keep wimmenfolk in their place, IMO.
Grainne Mcdonald,
“A leader should be ‘called’ by the congregation as fulfilling the scriptural requirements for shepherding the people.
——————
i don’t need a shepherd. i’m an adult, in age & aptitude.
does anyone here need a shepherd?
————————–
“But investing the word ‘pastor’ with some sort of special status and… assigning pastors special powers…This goes against the priesthood of each believer which is so clearly laid out in scripture.”
++++++++++++++++++
indeed.
it’s one of many logic short-circuits in christian culture.
and if ‘God’s ways are not our ways’, they should at least be not nullifying.
or women can be physicians, but not doctors … bookkeepers, but not accountants … druggists, but not pharmacists … deacons, but not elders … teachers, but not preachers … women, but not men
Max,
Actually the truth of the matter is somewhat different –
http://baptiststudiesonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/johnsons-address.pdf
Not long ago, NACA and NASA similarly titled women as mathematicians or computers (computing numbers) but NEVER as engineers, even though the women were the actual brains behind some of the NASA launches. These women were not just crunching numbers. Ref: “Hidden Figures” by Margot Lee Shetterly. Book and film.
Christians can play these games with women, but then don’t say “church”. They are not. They are just like the rest of the world in what they do to women. A boys’ club is not the Church. The boys may be drinking their bellies full of beer at the local pub, but they may also be full of ill-gotten inflated ego at their local church. What’s the diff? The latter is in the name of God. In vain, BTW.
Yes. LOL ridiculous. Nothing like being caught as utterly stupid. They want women to do the work, but as subjects without agency. Bots. Less than human. In denial of the fact that God created man and woman in the image of God right from the jump. That is what God did first.
God created both man and woman in His image with agency. Risky? Yes. Adam and Eve let God down. God found fellowship with another pair, Abraham and Sarah. The three struck up a covenant for the ages. The pair was not perfect, but they were set apart. Hall of faith-ers, as in Hebrews 11.
Some of them can be found at both places!
Ever hear of Calvinus beer? https://www.thisdrinkinglife.com/calvinus-beer/
Max,
No way!
Yes, way. Cal-boy even has his own Bible boy beer. Bible boys with their beer bellies, smug in the pub snug.
Guess it depends on how one chooses to spin truth.
A Baptist historian has a different view in his book “Diverging Loyalties: Baptists in Middle Georgia During the Civil War”
https://baptistnews.com/article/civil-war-changed-southern-baptists-historian-says/
There is no doubt that a division within American Baptist ranks on missionary efforts helped lead to the formation of the SBC. But Calvinism was the theological driver of the day that caused SBC Founders to accept slavery. Southern Baptists admitted that in 1995 at their annual meeting and even had a show of repentance for sins of the fathers in regard to racial sin.
elastigirl,
Well said elastigirl, well said!
Their fathers thought that they could hold on to the institution of slavery too.
How long can they sustain their subjugation of women in this 21st century, which I’ve heard some say is the century of women?
A deacon is in early church Greek a servant, diakonos. By the second century, the church had a ladder of responsibility. The acolyte, follower, was an aspirant, then deacon, elder (presbyter), and overseer (episkopos).
And God laughs. I haven’t been to a little c church in over two years. Before that we missed a year. (All this started out covid related, finding white supremacy rife in it is also part of our worshipping at home.)
This week I had surgery on my second eye for cataracts. Had a late day followup and was assigned to wait in the dilation waiting room. Very full room so I chose to mask. They wheeled in an older woman, around 90 I would guess. She was alone and looked forlorn. I complimented her unique sneakers, some my teenage granddaughter would love. She began to sparkle. Turned out we were from the same home state, hundreds of miles away. Had lived through the years in the same areas, and had brothers who worked for the same employer under the same boss before retirement. We had church together right there in that room. There was a tv running telling of Mitch MCConell vapor locking. Another couple decided to pray for him. Earlier in the day the nurse that put in my iv port spontaneously had a little prayer and praise session with me. Wonderful!
The big C Church is alive and well. Both men and women are ministering to others, and there is no compensation package causing anyone to fence off their fiefdom.
Peace!
linda,
What a lovely story and a perfect example of “the communion of the saints “. Thanks for sharing and glad you are doing well
I can relate to your experience. During a long career and business travel, I encountered several Christians on planes, conferences, business meetings … we fellowshipped and had “Church” outside the church. God has a way of putting those times together for believers.
There has always been the Church within the church. Praise God! Sometimes you find it outside brick and mortar buildings … the temple of God walking around in the flesh filled with the Spirit.
It’s Church when the Holy Spirit is the actual gatekeeper. Plenty of examples in the book of Acts. Thanks so much for sharing, Linda. God bless.
I heard a lady frustrated with the institutional little c church put it this way as she entered the Done ranks: “I don’t go to church … I am the Church.”
linda,
But remember, to really have “Church”, and communion, you have to be “under” a Neo-Cal, and signed one of the “contracts”…. (being saracstic here..)
… the BIG Cheezes need to “approve” what you are doing, also…
Therein, lies the core issue … believers have come to think that “doing church” requires you to submit to a church system and its authority structure. Somehow in all the noise, the authority of Jesus over “His” Church, the priesthood of ‘the’ believer, and Christians as temples of the Holy Spirit are diminished. Substituting a counterfeit for the genuine is never a good thing.
Max,
No spin Max. You can read all about the Baptists on archive.org.
“The Baptists in America; a narrative of the deputation from the Baptist Union in England to the United States and Canada
by Cox, F. A. (Francis Augustus), 1783-1853; Hoby, J. (James), 1788-1871”
You’ll also find it in Volume 2 of the three volume “American Religion: Literary Sources and Documents” under the section “The Voluntary Principle in Operation, chapter 71, “Summary View of the Baptist Denomination in the United States”
You’ll also see that far from skulking about in the shadows, the majority of Baptist churches held to Calvinist teaching. 🙂
“Th’ infernal Serpent; he it was whose guile,
Stirred up with envy and revenge, deceived
The mother of mankind,. . . ”
(John Milton, ‘Paradise Lost’)
I’ve been called a few things but a “non-barking barking” dog is a first ….
Is this another obscure bible thing? I really should have paid attention in Sunday school.
Agreed. However, Southern Baptists were distinctly non-Calvinist in belief and practice for 150 years after the Civil War … until Al Mohler planted New Calvinism in SBC in an attempt to take the denomination back to its theological roots, without asking millions of non-Calvinist Southern Baptists if they wanted to go there.! I know that because I was a Southern Baptist for 70+ years – I left when the Mohlerites came in like bulls in a china shop. While I may not agree with the tenets of reformed theology, I don’t have a problem with “classical” Calvinistic Baptists … I have known many and count some as friends. I’ve found them to be civil in their discourse and respectful of other expressions of faith. These New Calvinists are totally different beasts, as they sweep through the American church by stealth and deception (NeoCal pastoral candidates lie to search committees), displacing congregational governance with elder-rule, doing away with long-standing Baptist doctrines of soul competency and priesthood of the believer, and belittling female believers. Their movement is not a God-thing … the fingerprints of Jesus is not on it … all arrogance, no love.
Sounds like Mohler is the Mao Tse Tung of the Baptist religion.
In that very popular scenario, the Pastor is the free agent.
Donor-unit men are Pastor’s subjects and supporters.
Women are objects of the men.
3 tiers:
Free agent Dear Leader on top.
Men are DL’s subjects
Women are objects for men.
Jesus died to set us free from being subjects and objects. We are all created in the image of God with agency in the first place. Jesus brought us the Gospel Good News that we can regain, retain, and thrive in our agency, subject to no one and no thing, save God our Heavenly Father and His son Jesus Christ. We can live our best life, as intended by God. Our God is not a fascist and we are not God’s bots, thankfully.
“Stand fast therefore in your liberty, wherefore Christ has set us free, and be not entangled again in a yoke of bondage.” – from Galatians.
Fencers on the dole from their fiefdom to build their dynasties.
Who would have thought it would be the church (little c) which would put followers of Christ into bondage … pulpit subjugation, theo-enslavement, oppression of female believers, etc.
Come Lord Jesus.
Max,
We agree that the current new Calvinism is not Calvinist in its doctrine or practice. It is, as you say, an aberration.
Jack,
Are you one of the culprits?
Who would have thought the religious leaders + the majority of the lay religious folks would execute Jesus back in His day?
The story taught to us growing up in our contemporary church was that it was a certain minority group that executed the Son of God so shame on them. Wrong.
In truth the demographic that executed Jesus was actually pulpit + voting pew of Jesus’ day.
That. 🙂
I think it’s a reference to Sherlock Holmes.
In one of the original stories (don’t remember which one), the clue that cracks the case is where a dog did NOT bark, indicating the culprit/intruder was someone the dog knew.
The Great Chain of Being.
Boots stamping on faces, from the Throne of God on down.
Nick Fuentes still spreads that one, yelling it from the rooftops at high volume.
And that this same “certain minority group” is the Vast Conspiracy behind The Cabal/Deep State and all its Child Trafficking.
The real kicker is Fuentes does this all in the Name of “YEHHHH-SHUUUU-AAAAAAAH!!!!!”
Somebody tell Randy Stonehill he needs to write new verses for “It’s a Great Big Stupid World” concentrating on Christian stupidity, not just Heathens.
Don’t forget the Andrew Tate/SNEAKO-sized cigars to go with that Bible Boy Beer.
THUG LIFE.
Sorry, I didn’t get the reference. It was explained below.
This is the Christianity I was raised in. In our Anglican church, the idea of a woman pastor was not foreign. One of our ministers came from the states with his wife. Each of them had their own congregation as both were ordained ministers.
Nobody cared. Both were well liked in the community. This would have been circa 1984 to 1986.
I’ve come to realization that the Christianity I knew was heavily influenced by enlightenment thought, not a product of the iron age and even more progressive than the Hellenized Judaism of Jesus time.
We know that while Abraham was chosen he did impregnate a slave girl to provide a child for his wife. And please don’t tell me Hagar had a choice, she was property. In today’s world, Abraham would be arrested and probably written about here.
And Solomon multiplied that by 900.
That’s why these clowns think it’s ok to have sugar on the side. They emulate their heroes.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
BF&M2025 = Bait, Fodder and Manglewurzle 2025? Will that be like putting our conversion through a conversion course because God doesn’t do it well enough?
Unlimited damage causing places limits on damage limitation. Always decoy from the decoy. Didn’t “our” leaders (J Stott, C Henry) advise the seizing of media for evangelicalism?
By sight and not by faith (which was rather part time in Abraham’s case)!
Jack,
Just checking you weren’t about to make a “ghastly admission”! I was on the inside of a pincer movement for 28 years – too long, really.
Hope your Sunday is blessed! We plan to take these bionic peepers to see the cathedral with all the candles lit this morning, which is another way of saying taking a drive to enjoy all the crepe myrtles in full bloom.
Jesus is still Lord and still on the throne!
linda,
Enjoy your drive through God’s cathedral, beholding the beauty of His creation, while fellowshipping with Jesus. Church of a different sort, but still Church!
Crepe myrtles have been set back a bit with the drought in our area. Just now starting to bloom after some much-needed rain. Beautiful!
Sounds like you are trying those new eyes out after cataract surgery. Everything is so much more vivid. Wear your sunglasses! I’ve had one eye done. An amazing, simple surgery to restore sight. My eye surgeon has a ministry in third world countries – he has performed 40,000 cataract surgeries!
Max–yes, I am definitely a sunglasses wearer. Grew up in the desert at altitude so that habit is ingrained. And they found I have AMD, dry, very mild, and I will do all I can to take good care of these peepers.
I thought most of the crepe myrtles were goners, as last year’s drought meant mostly dead wood on all in the region. But we have been getting some rain all along so far this year, even if we technically are still in drought. Much have resprouted from the ground. Others have finally greened up, and surprisingly the bloom out is pretty good and to me, brilliant!
Truly an every day miracle!
Amen, Sister.
And yet they’ll swear up-and-down that their schtick is completely ‘Biblical’ per Paul.
The NeoCals have to torture Paul to get him to support their movement.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Good description, HEADLESS. wOw !
Marred only by the whisper of your catechism in your head:
“It;s All Gonna Burn… It’s All Gonna Burn… It’s All Gonna Burn…”
From the throne of God is the Grandest Boot of all, stomping on all of humanity. That’s TULIP that begins with TOTAL DEPRAVITY then moves on to LIMITED SELECTION, etc. What a mind trip, leaving total PSTD in its wake for all who take this drug.
In truth, God created each person in the dignity and agency of His very own image to have fellowship with God. Yes, agency gets misused and misdirected, but the dignity still stands. A much different premise and path than the depraved and shamed from the jump TULIP. God help the TULIPs to get out from under their lie and land in truth.
The Rules of Power Struggle:
Hold the Whip or Feel the Whip, nothing in-between.
And God just holds the Biggest Whip of all.
“There is no Right, there is no Wrong, there is only POWER.” — Lord Voldemort